10/06/2016 Daily Politics


10/06/2016

Andrew Neil is joined by Claire Fox to discuss the fallout from the EU referendum televised debate and a behind-the-scenes look at how the Queen's honours list is compiled.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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As Labour is warned it's talking too much to Hampstead instead of Hull,

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the party tries to get on the front foot over the EU referendum,

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claiming that a vote to leave will hit working people hard.

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There was no love lost between Leave and Remain camps

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in the first real TV debate of the campaign.

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We'll be chewing over their performance.

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We'll be looking at the EU's new plan to stem the flow

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of migrants from Africa with the offer of financial help.

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Are our universities really now filled with students determined

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And with us for the first half of the programme today

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She's the director of the Institute of Ideas -

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which is handy, as we're always short of a few fresh

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ideas on this show - and she's also supporting a vote

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to leave in the EU referendum, just so you know.

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So let's begin by talking about last night's ITV debate

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It was the first real debate of the campaign,

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after big figures on the Remain side like David Cameron refused to go

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head to head with their opponents, preferring instead interviews

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or question and answers. So what did we learn?

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Well, the Leave camp were hammering home their slogan "Take control",

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while Remain hammered home their criticism

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of Boris Johnson. Let's have a look.

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There isn't a silver bullet, and I know that's what Boris

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and his team would like to have, but you need to look at the numbers,

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although I fear the only number that Boris is interested in

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There is a member of that panel who's complained about the Remain

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campaign and said that it's miserable, negative and fear based,

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and fear-based campaigning of this kind

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starts to insult people's intelligence.

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Nicola Sturgeon... Boris Johnson is not interested...

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Please, Nicola Sturgeon, we must allow Boris Johnson to respond.

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He is only interested in David Cameron's job. Thank you.

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What we are hearing from the Remain side,

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particularly from Nicola Sturgeon, is that in fact we should stay

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in the European Union because, as this country elected

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a Conservative government, we need to stay in the

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European Union so that it can overrule a democratically elected

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government and then do what she wants it to do.

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Boris, you don't seem to care about the millions of jobs

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that will be at risk if we leave the EU.

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I think you only care about one job, and that's your next one.

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I don't think that you care, sorry. I'm afraid I missed the insult!

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I don't think that you care about the...

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I told you it was pretty feisty! Let's talk about it.

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And to talk about the debate we're joined by George Pascoe-Watson

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from the public-relations firm Portland Communications.

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Could use some this up, Remain side, Boris bad, Boris bad, Boris bad, and

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on the Leave side, take control, take control? Yes, and the essence

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of great communication is delivering a very clear idea, and let's look at

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the Leave side, no question that the one message that the audience would

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take aways take control, and they seem to be getting some amends with

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the idea that this is all about immigration and losing control of

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our borders. -- some momentum. That is where they are fundamentally on

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winning ground. But Remain had two ideas, painting Boris Johnson out to

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be somebody who cannot be trusted, let's not forget we had three women

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on the Remain side, that was unique. Also talking to the ITV audience,

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which is more female than male. They are both trying to win support from

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the undecideds, so tried to portray Boris as someone you cannot trust,

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but Amber Rudd was saying, think about the economics, which is an

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important issue for women voters, and the other two were talking about

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the positives, in their view, for remaining in the EU. But Amber Rudd

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also joined in with the ganging up on Boris Johnson, you can accept

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Nicola Sturgeon and Angela Eagle going to attack, that is part of

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their job, but is it not surprising, following on from John Major's

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attack on Sunday, now Amber Rudd? It is a fair assumption that Downing

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Street has approved of these attacks, and one of the attacks is

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that it is not safe to go home in a car with Boris Johnson. The level of

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personal animus is now huge. And the main thing is that it is completely

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apolitical, it destroys the campaign of any notion of having something

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important at stake. I thought Remain did very badly in relation to that.

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Boris bashing might be fun, you might get cheap applause, but it is

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vicious in personality politics, and it makes Boris looked rather

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statesman-like that he does not reduce himself to either responding

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to applying same game. The irony is that it's likely backfires. There is

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another way of looking at that, which is they are kind to me did a

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bit of a sham campaign for Boris, saying that he does not really

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believe in this. But think about it, Remain are full of people who do not

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really believe in this, so they have got a note. That campaign is full of

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Eurosceptics from the Tory party who have wanted to be anti-EU for ever

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and suddenly Remainers and enthusiastic. The Labour Party is

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completely split, because the left wing instinct would be to get out of

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this union. We are told this is the biggest decision the British Beagle

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will take for at least a generation, so why would the British people care

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what Amber Rudd thinks about Boris Johnson? Surely they want to know,

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are we better off in or out? What is our future in the 21st century, in

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or out? I would say the idea was there to pick holes in Boris Johnson

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as a character, because the point about leaving is that he would

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probably be the leader of the country in that event over time, and

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it puts a doubt in people's mines, that would be their strategy.

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Because they think he may be Prime Minister. I understand that the

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Remain campaign's private polling, in terms of trust on this issue,

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Boris Johnson comes quite high. He does. They are trying to chip away

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at his credibility. If you are depending on Boris Johnson to tell

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you which way to vote and his credibility is shot, it is important

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strategically for the Remain campaign to do that. They are

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winning on the numbers on NHS and immigration, so that is what it was

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all about last night, in my opinion. It was interesting that the Leave

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side, although it was Boris Johnson and a Labour politician too, they

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seemed to be singing from the same song sheet more so than Remain. I

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didn't think they did a bad job, and I am for Brexit, but I have been

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very critical of a lot of the Leave campaign. I am not part of any

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official campaign, and they have driven me mad, to be honest, my

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side! I had two young colleagues who were in the audience, and they are

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undecided, right? What did they say? Veering towards remain, if I am

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frank. I have not ask them in detail. They thought that the Remain

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people treated them with contempt and were patronising, and they were

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furious with the Boris bashing. They felt that intelligence was insulted,

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and they came away more towards Brexit. They were genuinely young

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undecided people trying to work it out. Are they veering Remain? Brexit

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because of the way they were treated by Remain. It is interesting about

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the strategy advice, strategists are very good at giving advice, but they

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sometimes give it in a bubble without any sense of having the

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finger on the pulse of the people. We need to move on, we thank you for

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that. In two weeks' time, we shall know the result.

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And if you haven't had enough of watching the politicians

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being grilled on the EU - and we know you haven't -

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you can watch me interview Ukip leader Nigel Farage at 7.30

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The question for today - what are couples said to be

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putting off until after the EU referendum on the 23rd June?

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Is it booking their summer holiday, DIY, having children,

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or watching the latest series of Game Of Thrones?

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And later on in the show, Claire will give us the correct answer.

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The Labour Party is this morning attempting to ramp up its campaign

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to persuade voters they should vote to remain in the EU.

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And it sounds like there's still plenty to do.

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Last night, Shadow Home Secretary Andy Burnham warned a British exit

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was a "very real prospect". Here he is speaking to Newsnight.

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We've definitely been far too much Hampstead

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I think here we are, two weeks away from the very real prospect

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that Britain will vote for isolation.

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With reports that the party's pro-EU message is meeting with a pretty

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hostile reception on the doorstep, two well-known Labour MPs have today

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One is the veteran Dennis Skinner, the other John Mann,

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who says his colleagues at Westminster are

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when they find out how many Labour members will vote to leave.

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This morning, Labour's deputy leader, Tom Watson,

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used a speech to try to persuade them otherwise.

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He warned that voting to leave could lead to ?18 billion

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Come the 24th of June, we face a double threat

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to our living standards if we vote to leave.

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A big black hole in the public finances, and an unfair Tory

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government that will make ordinary families pay the price

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He's correctly making clear, which I didn't, that the 18 billion figure

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is a combination of, he says, taxes, tax rises and spending cuts.

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Well, we're joined now by one Labour MP

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who is already backing the Leave campaign.

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I know it is difficult for you to be objective, but be honest, are you

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really sensing, on your Labour colleagues who are vote to remain,

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that getting the Labour vote is more difficult than they thought? Oh,

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absolutely, and I have felt that in the last month in particular, when I

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have gone out and around, and I think what a lot of my colleagues

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have been picking up on, I knew there would always be some MPs

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coming out, and we have still got one or two more, quite senior ones,

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but it is a feeling out there that all of this pier stuff has gone over

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their heads. They are fed up, they feel this is payback time for the

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way they have been ignored for years and years, and I genuinely do

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feel... Do you think the establishment mood is taking hold of

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those voting to leave? There is a feeling that nobody has listen to

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them, and they are really beginning to believe this is their one chance.

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Both sides are saying this is the most important decision they will

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take, and they are beginning to believe that. I saw it in my own

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patch, where last weekend, when I went out that are you are in central

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London. London is always different, a bit of a bubble, but one of my

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Labour estates, people were coming out, genuinely, and saying, we are

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with you, we want to leave. Afro-Caribbean is where saying that

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they understood the immigration thing, they understood that this is

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about getting rid of discrimination in immigration. -- Afro-Caribbeans

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were saying. If you win, are you not worried about the prospect of a

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Conservative government run by Boris Johnson and Michael Gove? I believe

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in democracy, and they have been elected... Not to make a government.

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There will be a new leader whatever happens, I cannot see David Cameron

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staying. The feeling among some of the Remainer MPs, they are not happy

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about the whole thing. I am not concerned. I think this idea that

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somehow they will immediately get rid of all trade union rights and so

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on, it is just nonsense, it really is nonsense. And, you know, I would

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rather be certain that we have a government we can get rid of, than

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leave it to the unelected EU. The slogan, take control, really does

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mean something. The defections are not all one way, Khalid Mahmood

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defected to Remain. He described the side you are on as, quote, trying to

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frighten people by concentrating on race and colour. I think it was a

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bit naughty of him to say that, because he joined up very early on,

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to be honest, did absolutely nothing, and we knew about a month

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ago that he was not with us anymore. We told him off a leaflet ages ago.

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It is that is you, it is not racist to say you want to control how many

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people come into your country. Look at the other democratic countries,

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they all have control, outside the EU, of who comes into their country.

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How is that racist? So many things are irritating, but workers will

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lose all control, lose all their rights, the implication is that

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ordinary working people in this country are beholden to the EU, and

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it is condescending, you know, your rights are the crumbs of some

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bureaucrat's table in Brussels. It is insulting people, and with the

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immigration thing, you insult an awful lot of people if you say, this

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is all about racism, isolation, xenophobia. People are not stupid,

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they are talking to each other and saying, I am pro-immigration but I

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support Brexit. A different point of view from the

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Labour Party. We're joined now

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by the Chuka Umunna. He, like most Labour MPs,

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is supporting a vote to remain, and he's in his

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constituency in South London. Welcome back to the programme. Do

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you agree with Andy Burnham that from your perspective, your side of

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the Remain campaign, you have been talking too much to Metropolitan

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London and not enough to Labour voters in the Midlands and the

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North? I think we need to speak to all Labour voters everywhere. I'm

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not a massive fan of this stereotype of people in London being a bunch of

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luvvies. I think these are your words, not mine! No, sure! I am sure

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you like a latter-day. In Lambeth, in this constituency, and Kate

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represents a constituency next door to me, and you have 40% of children

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growing up in poverty. The idea that everybody is having a party here is

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wrong. We need to appeal to all Labour voters. Can I say something

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about the immigration debate and the economy? I don't deny that

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immigration poses a challenge to a different communities. I think it is

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quite right that we look to do something about undercutting in the

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labour market by properly implementing the National Minimum

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Wage. It is right that people should contribute to our social security

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system before they take out, which they will have to do for at least

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four years. But the idea that the challenges that immigration presents

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will simply fall away if we leave the European Union, to perpetrate

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that, would be a lie and would further undermine people's trusting

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all of the different parties. One of the biggest challenges we face right

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now is a migration crisis. We have spoken about it before. That was

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caused not by what was happening in the EU, but what was happening

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primarily in Syria and the Middle East. That will not go away if we

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leave the European Union. Let's not forget, there are more people coming

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to the UK from outside the European Union than from inside. It is pretty

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much 50-50 now. But I don't want to get down to the details. I will be

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doing the details on my BBC interviews. My point is, are you not

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concerned that this message put articulately by yourself is not

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getting through to enough Labour voters? That is what John Mann seems

:18:20.:18:25.

to be saying and Andy Burnham. Doesn't that concern you?

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Absolutely. I am concerned about that. In London when we do speak to

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people and they understand our position is to stay in, and let's be

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clear, Kate Hoey, Dennis Skinner and John Mann are very much the

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minority. The overwhelming majority of Labour MPs want us to stay. Kate

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invited me to a debate at a run constituency party and

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overwhelmingly they want us to stay in. We have to make sure of our

:18:54.:19:00.

voters. People say, should Jeremy Corbyn be doing more? I always say

:19:01.:19:04.

you always want your striker to score more goals. We want him to do

:19:05.:19:09.

that between now and June 23. If we have the fallout that every

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reputable independent economic forecaster says there will be to our

:19:15.:19:18.

economy if we leave the European Union, it is above all, Labour

:19:19.:19:22.

voters, middle and lower income voters, who will be hit very hard.

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That's why Tom Watson and the team, who were presenting what would

:19:30.:19:33.

happen if we left, were right to point out the challenge there would

:19:34.:19:36.

be to the public finances. Who do the Tories usually make pay for

:19:37.:19:40.

that? They usually make our voters pay by taking away their benefits,

:19:41.:19:44.

introducing the bedroom tax are dismantling the NHS, tuition fees...

:19:45.:19:52.

Hold on. I think we will bring that lovely little speech to a halt for a

:19:53.:19:57.

second. I understand the argument. Why does John Mann, your Labour

:19:58.:20:00.

colleague, think of the Labour leadership will get a big shock at

:20:01.:20:05.

the number of Labour members and councillors voting to leave? Given

:20:06.:20:12.

the argument you just made, why does he think, why is there the prospect

:20:13.:20:16.

of Sony Labour voters thinking, we will vote to leave? That, I think,

:20:17.:20:23.

is primarily based on what is happening in his constituency. You

:20:24.:20:25.

would have two as Kim. I obviously disagree. The overwhelming majority

:20:26.:20:33.

of members want us to stay. I don't deny there are people like Kate and

:20:34.:20:37.

John Huh have a different point of view. But I come back to the central

:20:38.:20:42.

argument. If you care about what I care about, having a job, your

:20:43.:20:49.

rights at work, the climate change catastrophe, global poverty, I think

:20:50.:20:52.

we can amplify our ability to deal with those things being in the

:20:53.:20:57.

European Union as opposed to out. Are you worried you might lose? Yes,

:20:58.:21:03.

I am worried we might lose. I said so at the beginning. I was never one

:21:04.:21:09.

of those people who thought that either side was going to

:21:10.:21:13.

comfortably, really comfortably win this referendum. It will be a close

:21:14.:21:18.

fought contest. This is good for our democracy. We are having a fantastic

:21:19.:21:23.

debate. The TV debate last night was interesting and enriches our

:21:24.:21:26.

democracy. In the end the viewers are in charge. That is how democracy

:21:27.:21:28.

should be. Chuka Umunna, thank you. Now, tomorrow is the

:21:29.:21:32.

Queen's birthday. You know she watches this programme.

:21:33.:21:45.

It is our favourite programme. Wow! That is exciting. She will be busy

:21:46.:21:47.

today. It's her official birthday,

:21:48.:21:49.

of course, Events to celebrate

:21:50.:21:50.

are already under way, but it will also be marked

:21:51.:21:54.

with the annual announcement And as I haven't heard

:21:55.:21:58.

from the palace, I can only assume

:21:59.:22:04.

I've been overlooked again. I think it just got lost in the

:22:05.:22:09.

post. If you've ever wondered how

:22:10.:22:11.

the honours are actually handed out, then wonder no more -

:22:12.:22:14.

here's Mark Lobel. We had a great training session

:22:15.:22:16.

today, you guys done really well... This is Mike Pusey,

:22:17.:22:19.

a DJ known to his fans as CK Flash, the founder of this remarkable

:22:20.:22:23.

bike club - and now an MBE. Entrepreneur Mike was given

:22:24.:22:28.

the honour after he raised ?1.2 million for this BMX centre

:22:29.:22:39.

in Peckham, south-east London, inviting underprivileged kids

:22:40.:22:44.

off the streets away from gangs and crime, and turning them

:22:45.:22:48.

into cycling sensations. Mike has been teaching

:22:49.:22:52.

three-year-olds how to do this, Mike and his team of experts,

:22:53.:22:56.

including nutritionists and psychologists, have been

:22:57.:23:00.

training his youngsters for years. And unlike me, they have taken

:23:01.:23:03.

pole position in British, European and World Championships,

:23:04.:23:10.

with the Rio Olympics next. How did it feel when

:23:11.:23:13.

you got your MBE? I'm really happy to have it,

:23:14.:23:16.

and my parents and the family, the community, like I said,

:23:17.:23:19.

are very proud of me, will be looking to get

:23:20.:23:22.

the MBE in the future. Mike believes his award is

:23:23.:23:27.

as much for the community We took over the building,

:23:28.:23:30.

through employment, cooking lessons. We want to do a lot

:23:31.:23:34.

more with the kids. So you are constantly raising money

:23:35.:23:37.

and raising the bar. Does having the MBE help you,

:23:38.:23:39.

do you think, to do that? I think it does, because a lot

:23:40.:23:43.

of people that maybe didn't talk to me before, didn't

:23:44.:23:46.

kind of take it serious, So how did Mike

:23:47.:23:48.

actually land his MBE? A member of the public nominated

:23:49.:23:53.

Mike for one of these medals, until John Major's government

:23:54.:23:57.

reformed the system in the mid '80s to let ordinary people have

:23:58.:24:02.

a proper say over who gets them. This is the team that would have

:24:03.:24:08.

processed Mick's nomination, the Cabinet Office's Honours

:24:09.:24:12.

and Appointments Secretariat. And here is the man in charge

:24:13.:24:14.

of operations, Alex. Alex, how many nominations

:24:15.:24:17.

do you get a year? Well, we usually get about

:24:18.:24:20.

10,000 inquiries from members and that will translate

:24:21.:24:22.

into about 3000 nominations. Is it right that anybody

:24:23.:24:25.

in the public can nominate anybody? Yeah, absolutely, the system is open

:24:26.:24:28.

to absolutely everybody. The only thing the system doesn't

:24:29.:24:32.

support is self-nominations. We get a few of those, we're getting

:24:33.:24:35.

very good at spotting those. There's a simple nomination form

:24:36.:24:39.

on the website - gov.uk/honours. And all the nominations

:24:40.:24:43.

are then sent before nine independent

:24:44.:24:45.

selection committees. They make all the hard decisions

:24:46.:24:49.

and ultimate selections. The largest of those

:24:50.:24:51.

is the community, voluntary which is chaired by

:24:52.:24:53.

Dame Clare Tickell. It's not every day

:24:54.:24:56.

you get to meet a dame in the official archives

:24:57.:24:59.

room for UK honours. how the committee whittles

:25:00.:25:01.

down who gets the nod. We don't want people who've just

:25:02.:25:07.

been doing their job well. We actually want people

:25:08.:25:10.

who are making extraordinary contributions over

:25:11.:25:12.

and above their paid jobs, or sometimes their

:25:13.:25:15.

volunteering jobs. Ethnic minority communities like

:25:16.:25:16.

Mike's are still underrepresented. One of the biggest things

:25:17.:25:22.

is that they are not nominated. People in black and minority ethnic

:25:23.:25:25.

communities, They think, actually,

:25:26.:25:27.

this is something that they can't necessarily make inroads into,

:25:28.:25:33.

and that absolutely isn't true. Well, my dream of a knighthood

:25:34.:25:35.

might have to wait just a little bit longer,

:25:36.:25:38.

but tomorrow we will find out which hundreds of Brits have

:25:39.:25:42.

captured people's hearts and will be awarded one of these prestigious

:25:43.:25:45.

medals in the honours list. Now, are we raising

:25:46.:25:51.

'Generation Snowflake'? Recent controversies on university

:25:52.:25:56.

campuses in this country and in the United States have given

:25:57.:25:58.

rise to accusations that students these days are willing

:25:59.:26:01.

to take offence at even This year, the University

:26:02.:26:04.

of Oxford's Oriel College found itself at the centre of a broader

:26:05.:26:08.

cultural debate when students there complained about a statue

:26:09.:26:11.

of the imperialist Cecil Rhodes, who was one of the

:26:12.:26:16.

college benefactors. They argued that Mr Rhodes

:26:17.:26:17.

was a racist and a colonialist, and should no longer be honoured

:26:18.:26:21.

by the college. Let's take a look at

:26:22.:26:23.

some of the protests In putting his murderous colonial

:26:24.:26:49.

policies into practice, he committed a litany of crimes.

:26:50.:26:56.

CHEERING. Our guest of the day, Claire Fox,

:26:57.:26:58.

has written a book called I Find That Offensive!,

:26:59.:27:01.

arguing that younger generations in particular have

:27:02.:27:03.

become too thin-skinned. Joining her to discuss the issue

:27:04.:27:06.

is the writer and campaigner, Welcome. Should there are the almost

:27:07.:27:22.

no limits on the ability to give Offense? Is it a democratic right to

:27:23.:27:28.

be offensive? Yes. I am a free-speech absolutist. What I tried

:27:29.:27:32.

to understand the book was why there was a generation of fragility.

:27:33.:27:35.

Actually I do not think it is a kind of posture. I think young people, as

:27:36.:27:40.

a generational phenomena, are finding it harder to cope with

:27:41.:27:47.

things. There is an immediate instinct to ban, to silence, it

:27:48.:27:52.

slows down. I want to be heard. I found that when I was doing speeches

:27:53.:27:57.

that instead of the young, which I anticipated five silly fighting back

:27:58.:28:02.

and arguing with me, I was expecting to say -- was not expecting that

:28:03.:28:05.

they would say, you cannot say that. I wanted to understand that and what

:28:06.:28:10.

is -- that is what I try to explore. You have been on the end of some

:28:11.:28:18.

criticism. Does it get to you? It certainly gets to you. I would

:28:19.:28:22.

question the word offensive. When you are talking about offence, there

:28:23.:28:26.

is a right to be offensive. I don't think we can legislate against a

:28:27.:28:31.

fence because who decides what is offensive? Once you start allowing

:28:32.:28:35.

offensive speech to be banned, it is a cycle. For me I think there is a

:28:36.:28:43.

line of, if you are sending someone threats, threats to their bodily

:28:44.:28:46.

integrity, which is what I was getting, I do not call that

:28:47.:28:50.

offensive. I was not offended. I was terrified. That is a difference. I

:28:51.:28:57.

assume you would agree with that? My only hesitation in relation to this

:28:58.:29:01.

is, say for example the recent campaign that has been launched

:29:02.:29:08.

around the Internet, reclaim the Internet etc, the reason I get

:29:09.:29:11.

nervous is because suddenly what gets described as falling is a very

:29:12.:29:19.

broad category. -- trolling. Suddenly it goes from death threats

:29:20.:29:24.

to abuse. Often the abuse, by the way, is disagreement. I had an

:29:25.:29:29.

article in a newspaper yesterday. It was one of those Twitter storms. The

:29:30.:29:34.

thing was, people said that I broke the rules of the sisterhood by

:29:35.:29:37.

saying something about young women being particularly thin-skinned at

:29:38.:29:40.

the moment, which I am very concerned about. Twitter went mad.

:29:41.:29:45.

The thing that was interesting was they were accusing me of being the

:29:46.:29:50.

abusive person who was trolling. Suddenly I am on the receiving end.

:29:51.:29:56.

Can we agree that death threats are beyond abuse? Things are illegal. Or

:29:57.:30:06.

threatening violence? I agree that the term trolling has become far too

:30:07.:30:10.

broad and does a disservice to the people trying to fight against how

:30:11.:30:16.

women are sent death threats. What do you say to Claire's point that

:30:17.:30:18.

your generation is to thin-skinned? Putting aside death threats, but the

:30:19.:30:28.

general, I don't like this argument, you should not make it. I don't

:30:29.:30:33.

agree with that way of dealing with opinions you disagree with. I differ

:30:34.:30:38.

from Claire in that I understand the impetus, in that I think you would

:30:39.:30:43.

say you go by the line, sticks and stones can break my bones, but I

:30:44.:30:46.

disagree that words cannot hurt you, and I disagree that the way of

:30:47.:30:50.

dealing with the psychological damage that words can do is to stop

:30:51.:30:54.

them being said. Ultimately, what you want is to, for example, if you

:30:55.:30:59.

are fighting against misogyny, you want people to stop being

:31:00.:31:03.

misogynistic, rather than stopping them from saying it. That rides it

:31:04.:31:06.

underground and the views are not challenged. Why do think this is a

:31:07.:31:12.

problem? I think this is what you say in a book, particularly for

:31:13.:31:17.

young women? I think part of the reason for this is the kind of

:31:18.:31:21.

encouragement of identity politics and victim politics, and a certain

:31:22.:31:26.

brand of feminism, you know, the way that you gain most sympathy these

:31:27.:31:30.

days is to be a victim, and so there is a competition to be the most

:31:31.:31:34.

victim. Young women are sadly encouraged to do that on a range of

:31:35.:31:40.

things. And so, you know, you can see why, in the recent higher

:31:41.:31:44.

education policy Institute report on censorship on free speech on campus,

:31:45.:31:48.

they have actually said, well, increasing numbers of young people

:31:49.:31:52.

say there should be no platforming, and the majority of those are women.

:31:53.:31:58.

I am a fighter for women's liberation and women being strong,

:31:59.:32:01.

so it scares the hell out of me that they are becoming like that. When I

:32:02.:32:06.

was at university, it must have been 20 years ago now! When I was at

:32:07.:32:10.

university, universities were famous for being the places where you could

:32:11.:32:14.

say anything, that is what we valued. And also we had the time to

:32:15.:32:19.

do it. It seems now that universities are the places, with

:32:20.:32:22.

safe space campaigns, that what you can say is being curtailed. Is that

:32:23.:32:28.

just an impression, or is that what is happening? That is absolutely

:32:29.:32:32.

what is happening. I think the point about victimhood is really

:32:33.:32:36.

interesting, because it is almost like it comes out of the censorship

:32:37.:32:40.

movement that people are aware that, unless you can be the top victim,

:32:41.:32:44.

you are not going to be allowed to speak, because you are too

:32:45.:32:48.

privileged. And so it is like a vicious circle, and ultimately

:32:49.:32:52.

no-one will be allowed to speak. That is the danger, and I think that

:32:53.:32:57.

is what people are not seeing. It is interesting that more people who had

:32:58.:33:00.

been advocating and get banned themselves and suddenly realise they

:33:01.:33:04.

are on the wrong side of it. I have just remembered a phrase that was

:33:05.:33:07.

popular when I was at university, repressive tolerance, the

:33:08.:33:12.

authorities were so tolerant that they were really repressing us by

:33:13.:33:16.

being so tolerant, allowing us to say whatever we wanted! No chance of

:33:17.:33:21.

that now. There is always a danger, if you have a book that is trying to

:33:22.:33:27.

describe a generation in one way, that you are like a middle-aged

:33:28.:33:30.

woman whingeing about young people, right? I just want to point out...

:33:31.:33:37.

That is what middle-aged women are there for! I get it, and I am

:33:38.:33:42.

delighted, the people who have most enjoyed the book, from whom I have

:33:43.:33:46.

the most support, are under 27 or something, right? Are you going to

:33:47.:33:54.

universities to debate it? I am, and the people who do not like it are

:33:55.:33:57.

often be well-meaning PC social workers. So there you go. I don't

:33:58.:34:01.

like you talking about people like that! Thank you very much.

:34:02.:34:04.

It's time now to find out the answer to our quiz.

:34:05.:34:06.

Professor Michael Bruter of LSE discovered evidence that young

:34:07.:34:12.

Putting off booking the summer holiday, DIY, having children or

:34:13.:34:24.

watching Game Of Thrones? I wanted to be watching Game Of Thrones, but

:34:25.:34:29.

I suppose booking holidays. No, having children! How can you... ?!

:34:30.:34:41.

It must be true! The evidence shows and the experts say it must be true!

:34:42.:34:43.

We will even there. Coming up in a moment,

:34:44.:34:45.

it's our regular look at what's been going on

:34:46.:34:49.

in European politics. For now, it's time to say goodbye

:34:50.:34:51.

to my guest of the day, Claire Fox. So for the next half an hour we're

:34:52.:34:54.

going to be focussing on Europe. We'll be discussing the EU's

:34:55.:34:58.

proposals for a deal with countries in the Middle East and Africa,

:34:59.:35:00.

aimed at tackling the migrant crisis,

:35:01.:35:03.

the existing deal with Turkey, First, though, here's our guide

:35:04.:35:04.

to the latest from Europe The European Parliament

:35:05.:35:08.

agreed to set up an inquiry It's looking specifically

:35:09.:35:16.

at alleged violations of EU law by the European Commission

:35:17.:35:20.

and member states. MEPs accused Turkish politicians

:35:21.:35:23.

of undermining the rule of law by stripping

:35:24.:35:27.

the immunity of 138 MPs. It means parliamentarians

:35:28.:35:31.

critical of President Erdogan It will hardly do Turkey

:35:32.:35:33.

any favours in its bid to join the EU, especially

:35:34.:35:38.

after the Chancellor Turkey is a key ally,

:35:39.:35:40.

they are member of Nato, an organisation we on all sides

:35:41.:35:45.

of the campaign talk up. But is it going to be a member

:35:46.:35:47.

of the European Union? The Commission proposed new plans

:35:48.:35:50.

to tackle the migrant crisis by offering financial incentives

:35:51.:35:56.

to African and Middle Eastern countries to encourage them

:35:57.:35:58.

to stop people flowing into Europe. And time for a LOL - it looks like

:35:59.:36:03.

a smiley face or emoji, face but it's actually

:36:04.:36:07.

the new Slovak presidency logo. after Slovakia takes on the

:36:08.:36:09.

EU presidency on the 1st of July. And with us for the next 30 minutes,

:36:10.:36:19.

I've been joined by the Conservative MEP

:36:20.:36:21.

David Campbell Bannerman. He's supporting a vote to leave

:36:22.:36:23.

in the upcoming EU referendum. And by the Green MEP Jean Lambert,

:36:24.:36:26.

who is supporting Remain. Let's take a look at one of

:36:27.:36:31.

those stories in more detail, and that's the question

:36:32.:36:34.

of whether Turkey will ever join the EU,

:36:35.:36:38.

and if so, when. I would suggest to both of you that

:36:39.:36:47.

neither Remain Leave is totally accurate or honest in this. Let me

:36:48.:36:53.

come to the Leave, it is true, it is government policy that Turkey should

:36:54.:36:57.

join the EU at some stage. The Prime Minister is trying to kick it into

:36:58.:37:01.

the long grass, but even if the Government was putting all its

:37:02.:37:07.

effort behind Turkey to join, it is a long way off. It has been for some

:37:08.:37:12.

time, that is true, but it is the as brazen to have Turkey, and we are

:37:13.:37:19.

spending 1.8 billion on free access and funding. -- but it is the

:37:20.:37:27.

aspiration to have Turkey, and we are spending 1.8 billion on

:37:28.:37:35.

pre-accession funding. The process has been restarted and speeded up.

:37:36.:37:40.

That is fair enough, but on your side of the argument, it is not

:37:41.:37:49.

going to happen soon, but it is policy that Turkey should join at

:37:50.:37:53.

some stage, and this referendum is not for tomorrow or the next day -

:37:54.:37:57.

it is for a long while, so it is fair to raise that, is it not? ? It

:37:58.:38:05.

is if you are talking about enlargement of the European Union,

:38:06.:38:09.

but not as shorthand for something else. If Turkey were to join, there

:38:10.:38:14.

is a long process to go through, and certainly the current government,

:38:15.:38:18.

many of us consider, is going backwards in meeting the criteria.

:38:19.:38:23.

You mean the current Turkish government? The current Turkish

:38:24.:38:26.

government. Moving to a more Islamic... It is more repressive,

:38:27.:38:33.

not necessarily the fact that it is more Islamic. As you mentioned, what

:38:34.:38:38.

is happening to the immunity of people from the left-wing Kurdish

:38:39.:38:44.

party. So, yes, it is on the table at some point. I am assuming that,

:38:45.:38:49.

you know, given what the Government here has proposed in terms of future

:38:50.:38:53.

referenda, that would be a treaty change and a decision that is not on

:38:54.:39:02.

the table yet. And that a reasonable level of agreement, let's see if I

:39:03.:39:03.

can do better! The deal the EU struck with Turkey

:39:04.:39:05.

to stem the flow of migrants crossing into Greece seems

:39:06.:39:08.

to have been effective - But can and should

:39:09.:39:10.

that deal be repeated with other countries

:39:11.:39:14.

in Africa and the Middle East? The moment when hope turned

:39:15.:39:16.

to fear in May on the Med. This footage from the Italian navy

:39:17.:39:23.

was a chilling reminder of how Thousands have died attempting

:39:24.:39:25.

the journey to Europe since 2014, But dealing with and sorting

:39:26.:39:31.

through the influx of migrants has also created domestic political

:39:32.:39:39.

problems for Europe's political leaders after more than 200,000

:39:40.:39:42.

have arrived so far this year. The number of migrants arriving

:39:43.:39:45.

in Greece has dropped after the EU promised Turkey billions

:39:46.:39:49.

of pounds in aid for better sea and border controls,

:39:50.:39:53.

although the promise of visa-free travel for Turkish citizens

:39:54.:39:55.

within the Schengen zone continues On Tuesday, the European Commission

:39:56.:39:58.

announced the outline of a new ?50 billion deal

:39:59.:40:05.

with the Middle East The partnership plan proposes

:40:06.:40:08.

trade deals and more investment to stem the flow

:40:09.:40:13.

of migrants to the EU. Top of the list are Jordan

:40:14.:40:19.

and Lebanon, hosting 1.8 million Syrian refugees,

:40:20.:40:23.

as well as Niger, Nigeria, Senegal, Mali and Ethiopia,

:40:24.:40:25.

countries migrants leave from or travel through

:40:26.:40:27.

to get to Europe. The key coastal state of Libya

:40:28.:40:31.

and Tunisia, where EU cash would bolster

:40:32.:40:33.

border and sea controls. And, somewhat controversially,

:40:34.:40:39.

cash for countries with poor humanitarian records,

:40:40.:40:41.

like Eritrea and Sudan, So often on the back foot

:40:42.:40:44.

during this migration crisis, EU leaders have been

:40:45.:40:49.

trying desperately hard to regain the initiative -

:40:50.:40:53.

now they think they have. We propose to use a mix of positive

:40:54.:40:57.

and negative incentives, to reward those countries

:40:58.:41:00.

willing to cooperate and to ensure that there are

:41:01.:41:02.

consequences for those who do not. This includes using

:41:03.:41:09.

our development and trade policies If this is the EU's big push

:41:10.:41:12.

on controlling migration, then bear in mind that this

:41:13.:41:17.

is not new money pledged, It relies on the ambition that

:41:18.:41:23.

member states will also match EU funding, and on the hope

:41:24.:41:29.

that private and public backers The proposals will require approval

:41:30.:41:31.

by EU governments and the EU Parliament, but one Eurosceptic MEP

:41:32.:41:37.

has already dismissed them. Saying that we should stabilise

:41:38.:41:41.

the countries of origin I mean, what are we going to do

:41:42.:41:44.

in the intervening 30 years? Definitely, the European Union

:41:45.:41:49.

should be opening its markets Probably the most immoral trade

:41:50.:41:51.

policy in the world at the moment is the EU's

:41:52.:41:59.

Common Agricultural Policy. It means that not only

:42:00.:42:00.

are producers, exporters in developing countries,

:42:01.:42:02.

denied Europe's markets, it means they then have to very

:42:03.:42:05.

often face unfair competition against subsidised

:42:06.:42:08.

EU produce at home. there is a moral dilemma

:42:09.:42:11.

for the EU leaders too. I think the European Union has found

:42:12.:42:15.

it's quite difficult to deal with the problem with

:42:16.:42:19.

the existing policies that it's got. So what it's doing, in effect,

:42:20.:42:22.

is trying to retrofit its existing policies to cope with the political

:42:23.:42:25.

problem that it hadn't anticipated. The problem is, how you move

:42:26.:42:28.

from a situation in which you have a group of countries which don't

:42:29.:42:32.

necessarily have the institutions, the rule of law and democracy,

:42:33.:42:35.

which looks and feels So with its latest plan

:42:36.:42:38.

to control migration, the EU finds itself under fire

:42:39.:42:45.

over its protectionist trade policies and questioned

:42:46.:42:49.

over how it will handle autocrats. There is no simple solution to what

:42:50.:42:53.

could be a decades-long problem. When you look at the scale of some

:42:54.:43:09.

of the problems facing the country is that we are talking about here,

:43:10.:43:16.

about nine of them, Ethiopia, Mali, Niger, Senegal, is this not just a

:43:17.:43:20.

drop in the ocean? I think it potentially is, in many respects,

:43:21.:43:24.

some of us think it is a drop in the ocean. And the other hand, it is at

:43:25.:43:29.

least an effort to try and do something, as was being said. But,

:43:30.:43:33.

you know, it has to go hand-in-hand with a set of other policy areas

:43:34.:43:39.

too, whether that is looking again at development aid and how

:43:40.:43:42.

effectively it is working. Certainly, issues about trade policy

:43:43.:43:45.

and what we are doing, what more can be done to help job creation in the

:43:46.:43:51.

country so that young people there have some opportunities, so they

:43:52.:43:54.

feel that their country is not broken. What is your take? Well, we

:43:55.:44:01.

have tried it with Turkey, bribing them, offering them trade deals,

:44:02.:44:08.

cash, 62 billion has been mentioned,... But that is not, with

:44:09.:44:12.

Turkey, it is not really geared at Turkish nationals, it is the almost

:44:13.:44:16.

3 million refugees who fled the war zone to go to Turkey - it is a big

:44:17.:44:22.

problem, but a different problem. The approach is quite similar, and

:44:23.:44:27.

the press release says that, it is quite similar to Turkey. My worry is

:44:28.:44:33.

that, as Oxfam have complained, this could go to some very nasty

:44:34.:44:37.

governments with very poor human rights records, and is there any

:44:38.:44:42.

guarantee it will work? That is an issue in Eritrea, the Sudan, where

:44:43.:44:46.

human rights are appalling, that is why people are fleeing in the first

:44:47.:44:52.

place. It is in Eritrea where it is compulsory to join the army and so

:44:53.:44:56.

on. There are heavy penalties. A horrible existence. But should we,

:44:57.:45:01.

because in the end this is government to government aid, we are

:45:02.:45:06.

not really just bolstering the existing regimes with this money?

:45:07.:45:10.

I think there is a risk of that. It is important when we look at a that

:45:11.:45:22.

more NGOs would work on the ground and you would circumvent the

:45:23.:45:26.

government. Other places with stable governments, it would be direct

:45:27.:45:28.

budget support within the government. That is what we do in

:45:29.:45:35.

places like Bangladesh. Yes, there are still questions but it is a

:45:36.:45:38.

different sort of thing. The important part of it is whatever you

:45:39.:45:42.

are doing, you still keep the human rights agenda on the table. You do

:45:43.:45:48.

not shut your eyes to that. I assume you agree with the point that one of

:45:49.:45:52.

the reasons these countries, a lot of them agricultural, are not helped

:45:53.:46:01.

by the protectionism that goes with the common agricultural policy? I

:46:02.:46:05.

fully agree with Dan. It is disgraceful. Many of these countries

:46:06.:46:11.

find it hard to compete. You are dumping cheap food. It is a two

:46:12.:46:22.

process, you say? Yes. Do you agree with that? It is a criticism the

:46:23.:46:29.

Green Party has made for a while. It is interesting to see who is getting

:46:30.:46:34.

on board! There is no European assistance to help countries reach

:46:35.:46:40.

the standards, the hygiene standards and the like, for food. There is

:46:41.:46:44.

also a question in terms of the development. We are looking at what

:46:45.:46:48.

you can do to add value in the country of origin. That has when the

:46:49.:46:52.

tariffs increase though for the moment. The EU then put a higher

:46:53.:47:00.

tariff. This is where the everything but arms trade procedures for the

:47:01.:47:06.

poorest countries in the world has been extremely important in that. In

:47:07.:47:09.

terms of offering support in how they develop not only their markets,

:47:10.:47:17.

the EU, but internally. The idea of a blue card system for the EU is

:47:18.:47:22.

roughly based on the green card system in Iraq. Good, bad,

:47:23.:47:27.

indifferent? It has not been used much today. It has not been

:47:28.:47:34.

successful. Is it worth a try? Worth a try. Worth the right sort of

:47:35.:47:41.

direction. By the way, if we leave the European Union, we will be

:47:42.:47:46.

outside the customs union, therefore we could cut tariffs on a lot of

:47:47.:47:51.

these developing countries. We will see how that goes down with British

:47:52.:47:52.

voters. If the UK votes to remain in the UK

:47:53.:47:54.

on the 23rd of June, how Will they be keen to help us achieve

:47:55.:47:58.

David Cameron's renegotiation, or will they perhaps be

:47:59.:48:02.

a bit miffed? And if we leave, will they want

:48:03.:48:06.

to send a message by putting the UK through the wringer,

:48:07.:48:09.

or strike a new relationship with us European politicians and officials

:48:10.:48:12.

try to avoid talking about it too much, but here's

:48:13.:48:17.

what a few have said. German Finance Minister Wolfgang

:48:18.:48:25.

Schauble reportedly told his UK counterpart, George Osborne,

:48:26.:48:27.

that his country would be tough in what he described in an interview

:48:28.:48:30.

as "years of the most And French economy minister,

:48:31.:48:33.

Emmanuel Macron, has warned Britain would be "completely killed"

:48:34.:48:41.

in trade talks if the country votes "We have to be very clear that

:48:42.:48:45.

Brexit will have But Leave campaigners argue

:48:46.:48:50.

that the UK would "continue to thrive" even outside

:48:51.:48:55.

the EU's single market. And leaving the EU would also let

:48:56.:48:59.

the UK take back control over its ability to trade more

:49:00.:49:02.

freely with the rest of the world. Plus, they argue, the European

:49:03.:49:16.

project is a steam roller and that we remain in, Britain will be

:49:17.:49:22.

flattened. I suppose the difficult thing is, until it happens we don't

:49:23.:49:27.

know. Of course European politicians at the moment want us to stay. They

:49:28.:49:34.

say it will be tough if we leave. If they said, vote to leave and you can

:49:35.:49:40.

have what you want... I am on the trade committee. We are doing trade

:49:41.:49:46.

deals over the world. Canada is held up a bit. We are doing Australia and

:49:47.:49:51.

New Zealand. India. The model of running your own country and getting

:49:52.:49:56.

a great trade deal with the EU is proven in that sense. Except nobody

:49:57.:50:00.

will ever have been in our position if we vote to leave, that is unique.

:50:01.:50:06.

Greenland is about the closest. That is a stretch. Did -- it makes it

:50:07.:50:11.

easier to do a trade deal in the sense that we are already compliant

:50:12.:50:14.

now because we are members of the EU. We do not have the tariffs to

:50:15.:50:19.

negotiate. We don't have that problem. What is your honest

:50:20.:50:24.

assessment to it is most impossible to tell, I know. Supposedly voted to

:50:25.:50:31.

leave that smacks of those we vote to leave, Article 50 is ignited.

:50:32.:50:42.

What would the mood be like in the European capital is dealing with

:50:43.:50:46.

this? I think it would be mixed. There would be a question of...

:50:47.:50:53.

There are strong relationships that have been fought over years. There

:50:54.:50:58.

are obviously trade implications for the European Union. However, given

:50:59.:51:02.

what we know about the rise of the hard right in countries such as

:51:03.:51:06.

France and the like, I think there would also be a very strong desire

:51:07.:51:10.

to have a clear message that of other countries want to go down this

:51:11.:51:14.

road, this is not going to be sunshine ever after and almost no

:51:15.:51:23.

change. In case it encourages them. The other key issue will also be the

:51:24.:51:26.

very vexed question of free movement. And that if we decide, and

:51:27.:51:32.

we don't quite know who will be tickling -- doing the negotiation

:51:33.:51:37.

from the UK, your party will sort that, but if that is going to be a

:51:38.:51:41.

key issue, I think a lot of other things become very difficult. You

:51:42.:51:45.

will then be very grateful for the work I have been doing on EU

:51:46.:51:51.

migration policy. To find out what your rights are. We are only being

:51:52.:51:59.

hypothetical, but if we are out of the EU, will be not be confronted by

:52:00.:52:05.

an existential choice? You can have free movement within the EU and you

:52:06.:52:11.

can have the single market. But you cannot pick and choose. This is a

:52:12.:52:20.

fallacy we have heard from Remain. Only four out of 140 trade

:52:21.:52:27.

agreements the EU has, as free movement. Two of those, Switzerland

:52:28.:52:31.

and Lichtenstein, they are getting rid of freedom of movement.

:52:32.:52:36.

Switzerland does not know what to do. The EU is now even refusing to

:52:37.:52:40.

talk because they say, look, access to the single market? You have to

:52:41.:52:47.

give the borders open. The thing that people do not realise,

:52:48.:52:50.

including President Obama, is that we have a guaranteed rules -based

:52:51.:52:55.

deal which is non-negotiable. We have already signed a treaty. It is

:52:56.:53:00.

the same relationship the EU has with the US at the moment, Canada

:53:01.:53:05.

and India. There is a fallback position. What you were talking

:53:06.:53:08.

about is a better trade deal on top, which all of us want. The former

:53:09.:53:15.

head of the German CBI says, of course there will be a trade deal.

:53:16.:53:18.

They all say that, they don't want us to leave. Let's see what the

:53:19.:53:27.

conditions are. We will have to find that out.

:53:28.:53:29.

Now, Malta is the smallest and most densely populated EU member state.

:53:30.:53:32.

It's got a population about the size of Bristol.

:53:33.:53:34.

So what's been the effect of 12 years of EU membership on this

:53:35.:53:37.

Here's Adam with the latest in our series, meet the neighbours.

:53:38.:54:08.

It's like Game of Thrones meets the boat race. This is Malta's Freedom

:54:09.:54:20.

Day bank holiday regatta when crews from the Valletta harbour face each

:54:21.:54:25.

other in an audio of rowing, falling in and I think swearing. Hi, Andy.

:54:26.:54:36.

Things are more genteel with Andy. Like a lot of the people on these

:54:37.:54:40.

islands, he is part Maltese Cummer Park British and he loves the Royal

:54:41.:54:45.

family. In fact, he has had that Prince William on the back of his

:54:46.:54:50.

water taxi. I got and interests -- a letter from Buckingham Palace saying

:54:51.:54:56.

how much he enjoyed the trip. It is one of my greatest treasures. There

:54:57.:55:02.

are bits of bridges and over the place. Do we even have these any

:55:03.:55:09.

more? Malta is one of three EU countries that are in the

:55:10.:55:12.

Commonwealth along with the UK and Cyprus. This is a country with half

:55:13.:55:19.

a million people. It is rare that we have the occasion to sit around the

:55:20.:55:25.

same table with economic superpower is not coming from Europe. Without

:55:26.:55:30.

such a platform it would be extremely difficult for smaller, or

:55:31.:55:37.

even micro-states, to put forward their arguments, which are

:55:38.:55:42.

essentially existential on whether they survive or not. Right now,

:55:43.:55:47.

Malta chose the Commonwealth and next year will hold the rotating

:55:48.:55:51.

presidency of the EU at the same time. Jackpot! You would be amazed

:55:52.:56:00.

at the sort of interest that there is amongst European countries to get

:56:01.:56:08.

to know what makes this organisation, -- called the

:56:09.:56:11.

Commonwealth tick. It is very difficult to find one other

:56:12.:56:14.

organisation worldwide which has such a diverse composition. Well, it

:56:15.:56:21.

has its problems, so we are trying, during our time in the presidency of

:56:22.:56:25.

the Commonwealth, to to put forward the issue of say, gay rights. The

:56:26.:56:31.

regatta is over. It is clear that membership of the Commonwealth and

:56:32.:56:34.

the European Union helps Malta to punch above its weight. It trades

:56:35.:56:39.

much more with the EU, suggesting that is the more powerful pairing.

:56:40.:56:48.

Add in Malta. I've never been to Malta. You have. It is a really

:56:49.:56:55.

interesting place with masses of history. Really, really. For them,

:56:56.:57:01.

being of the table is really important, just as being at the

:57:02.:57:05.

table for us is going to be important. Their future they see

:57:06.:57:10.

with the European Union. A small place like Malta can feel that it

:57:11.:57:15.

stayed as a troll is enhanced because it is in the European Union.

:57:16.:57:22.

You have been there as well. Yes, I have. It is a beautiful place. They

:57:23.:57:28.

took a huge pounding during the war from the Nazis? Proportionally the

:57:29.:57:34.

highest in Europe and the world. Very brave people. A lot of history.

:57:35.:57:41.

I'm a great fan of Malta. I think there is a bit of a contest between

:57:42.:57:46.

its British history and the EU, actually. There is not a sign it

:57:47.:57:52.

wants to leave? No. It was a close-run vote at the time but that

:57:53.:57:57.

has been resolved. Do think it is pretty settled within the EU? Yes,

:57:58.:58:02.

it has settled within the European Union. It has a voice. It is the

:58:03.:58:10.

seat of the European asylum support office now. Kind of the front line

:58:11.:58:16.

of the Mediterranean. Very much so. Therefore it really feels that the

:58:17.:58:21.

solution to problems around migration, climate, whatever, are

:58:22.:58:25.

very much in the European Union. They will not follow Britain if we

:58:26.:58:29.

did leave? No, we might follow them though, because they're very

:58:30.:58:35.

crowded. We might be as crowded as Malta.

:58:36.:58:40.

Fans of the Game of Thrones may have noticed that some of the scenes

:58:41.:58:45.

there are shot in Malta. The non-rainy bits. The rainy bits are

:58:46.:58:51.

in Northern Ireland. That's it for now. Thanks for joining us. Bye-bye.

:58:52.:59:22.

discover there's more than the air beneath the wings

:59:23.:59:24.

Andrew Neil is joined by Claire Fox to discuss the fallout from the EU referendum televised debate and a behind-the-scenes look at how the Queen's honours list is compiled. Plus David Campbell Bannerman MEP and Jean Lambert MEP on events in the European Parliament.


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