10/06/2016 Daily Politics

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

As Labour is warned it's talking too much to Hampstead instead of Hull,

the party tries to get on the front foot over the EU referendum,

claiming that a vote to leave will hit working people hard.

There was no love lost between Leave and Remain camps

in the first real TV debate of the campaign.

We'll be chewing over their performance.

We'll be looking at the EU's new plan to stem the flow

of migrants from Africa with the offer of financial help.

Are our universities really now filled with students determined

And with us for the first half of the programme today

She's the director of the Institute of Ideas -

which is handy, as we're always short of a few fresh

ideas on this show - and she's also supporting a vote

to leave in the EU referendum, just so you know.

So let's begin by talking about last night's ITV debate

It was the first real debate of the campaign,

after big figures on the Remain side like David Cameron refused to go

head to head with their opponents, preferring instead interviews

or question and answers. So what did we learn?

Well, the Leave camp were hammering home their slogan "Take control",

while Remain hammered home their criticism

of Boris Johnson. Let's have a look.

There isn't a silver bullet, and I know that's what Boris

and his team would like to have, but you need to look at the numbers,

although I fear the only number that Boris is interested in

There is a member of that panel who's complained about the Remain

campaign and said that it's miserable, negative and fear based,

and fear-based campaigning of this kind

starts to insult people's intelligence.

Nicola Sturgeon... Boris Johnson is not interested...

Please, Nicola Sturgeon, we must allow Boris Johnson to respond.

He is only interested in David Cameron's job. Thank you.

What we are hearing from the Remain side,

particularly from Nicola Sturgeon, is that in fact we should stay

in the European Union because, as this country elected

a Conservative government, we need to stay in the

European Union so that it can overrule a democratically elected

government and then do what she wants it to do.

Boris, you don't seem to care about the millions of jobs

that will be at risk if we leave the EU.

I think you only care about one job, and that's your next one.

I don't think that you care, sorry. I'm afraid I missed the insult!

I don't think that you care about the...

I told you it was pretty feisty! Let's talk about it.

And to talk about the debate we're joined by George Pascoe-Watson

from the public-relations firm Portland Communications.

Could use some this up, Remain side, Boris bad, Boris bad, Boris bad, and

on the Leave side, take control, take control? Yes, and the essence

of great communication is delivering a very clear idea, and let's look at

the Leave side, no question that the one message that the audience would

take aways take control, and they seem to be getting some amends with

the idea that this is all about immigration and losing control of

our borders. -- some momentum. That is where they are fundamentally on

winning ground. But Remain had two ideas, painting Boris Johnson out to

be somebody who cannot be trusted, let's not forget we had three women

on the Remain side, that was unique. Also talking to the ITV audience,

which is more female than male. They are both trying to win support from

the undecideds, so tried to portray Boris as someone you cannot trust,

but Amber Rudd was saying, think about the economics, which is an

important issue for women voters, and the other two were talking about

the positives, in their view, for remaining in the EU. But Amber Rudd

also joined in with the ganging up on Boris Johnson, you can accept

Nicola Sturgeon and Angela Eagle going to attack, that is part of

their job, but is it not surprising, following on from John Major's

attack on Sunday, now Amber Rudd? It is a fair assumption that Downing

Street has approved of these attacks, and one of the attacks is

that it is not safe to go home in a car with Boris Johnson. The level of

personal animus is now huge. And the main thing is that it is completely

apolitical, it destroys the campaign of any notion of having something

important at stake. I thought Remain did very badly in relation to that.

Boris bashing might be fun, you might get cheap applause, but it is

vicious in personality politics, and it makes Boris looked rather

statesman-like that he does not reduce himself to either responding

to applying same game. The irony is that it's likely backfires. There is

another way of looking at that, which is they are kind to me did a

bit of a sham campaign for Boris, saying that he does not really

believe in this. But think about it, Remain are full of people who do not

really believe in this, so they have got a note. That campaign is full of

Eurosceptics from the Tory party who have wanted to be anti-EU for ever

and suddenly Remainers and enthusiastic. The Labour Party is

completely split, because the left wing instinct would be to get out of

this union. We are told this is the biggest decision the British Beagle

will take for at least a generation, so why would the British people care

what Amber Rudd thinks about Boris Johnson? Surely they want to know,

are we better off in or out? What is our future in the 21st century, in

or out? I would say the idea was there to pick holes in Boris Johnson

as a character, because the point about leaving is that he would

probably be the leader of the country in that event over time, and

it puts a doubt in people's mines, that would be their strategy.

Because they think he may be Prime Minister. I understand that the

Remain campaign's private polling, in terms of trust on this issue,

Boris Johnson comes quite high. He does. They are trying to chip away

at his credibility. If you are depending on Boris Johnson to tell

you which way to vote and his credibility is shot, it is important

strategically for the Remain campaign to do that. They are

winning on the numbers on NHS and immigration, so that is what it was

all about last night, in my opinion. It was interesting that the Leave

side, although it was Boris Johnson and a Labour politician too, they

seemed to be singing from the same song sheet more so than Remain. I

didn't think they did a bad job, and I am for Brexit, but I have been

very critical of a lot of the Leave campaign. I am not part of any

official campaign, and they have driven me mad, to be honest, my

side! I had two young colleagues who were in the audience, and they are

undecided, right? What did they say? Veering towards remain, if I am

frank. I have not ask them in detail. They thought that the Remain

people treated them with contempt and were patronising, and they were

furious with the Boris bashing. They felt that intelligence was insulted,

and they came away more towards Brexit. They were genuinely young

undecided people trying to work it out. Are they veering Remain? Brexit

because of the way they were treated by Remain. It is interesting about

the strategy advice, strategists are very good at giving advice, but they

sometimes give it in a bubble without any sense of having the

finger on the pulse of the people. We need to move on, we thank you for

that. In two weeks' time, we shall know the result.

And if you haven't had enough of watching the politicians

being grilled on the EU - and we know you haven't -

you can watch me interview Ukip leader Nigel Farage at 7.30

The question for today - what are couples said to be

putting off until after the EU referendum on the 23rd June?

Is it booking their summer holiday, DIY, having children,

or watching the latest series of Game Of Thrones?

And later on in the show, Claire will give us the correct answer.

The Labour Party is this morning attempting to ramp up its campaign

to persuade voters they should vote to remain in the EU.

And it sounds like there's still plenty to do.

Last night, Shadow Home Secretary Andy Burnham warned a British exit

was a "very real prospect". Here he is speaking to Newsnight.

We've definitely been far too much Hampstead

I think here we are, two weeks away from the very real prospect

that Britain will vote for isolation.

With reports that the party's pro-EU message is meeting with a pretty

hostile reception on the doorstep, two well-known Labour MPs have today

One is the veteran Dennis Skinner, the other John Mann,

who says his colleagues at Westminster are

when they find out how many Labour members will vote to leave.

This morning, Labour's deputy leader, Tom Watson,

used a speech to try to persuade them otherwise.

He warned that voting to leave could lead to ?18 billion

Come the 24th of June, we face a double threat

to our living standards if we vote to leave.

A big black hole in the public finances, and an unfair Tory

government that will make ordinary families pay the price

He's correctly making clear, which I didn't, that the 18 billion figure

is a combination of, he says, taxes, tax rises and spending cuts.

Well, we're joined now by one Labour MP

who is already backing the Leave campaign.

I know it is difficult for you to be objective, but be honest, are you

really sensing, on your Labour colleagues who are vote to remain,

that getting the Labour vote is more difficult than they thought? Oh,

absolutely, and I have felt that in the last month in particular, when I

have gone out and around, and I think what a lot of my colleagues

have been picking up on, I knew there would always be some MPs

coming out, and we have still got one or two more, quite senior ones,

but it is a feeling out there that all of this pier stuff has gone over

their heads. They are fed up, they feel this is payback time for the

way they have been ignored for years and years, and I genuinely do

feel... Do you think the establishment mood is taking hold of

those voting to leave? There is a feeling that nobody has listen to

them, and they are really beginning to believe this is their one chance.

Both sides are saying this is the most important decision they will

take, and they are beginning to believe that. I saw it in my own

patch, where last weekend, when I went out that are you are in central

London. London is always different, a bit of a bubble, but one of my

Labour estates, people were coming out, genuinely, and saying, we are

with you, we want to leave. Afro-Caribbean is where saying that

they understood the immigration thing, they understood that this is

about getting rid of discrimination in immigration. -- Afro-Caribbeans

were saying. If you win, are you not worried about the prospect of a

Conservative government run by Boris Johnson and Michael Gove? I believe

in democracy, and they have been elected... Not to make a government.

There will be a new leader whatever happens, I cannot see David Cameron

staying. The feeling among some of the Remainer MPs, they are not happy

about the whole thing. I am not concerned. I think this idea that

somehow they will immediately get rid of all trade union rights and so

on, it is just nonsense, it really is nonsense. And, you know, I would

rather be certain that we have a government we can get rid of, than

leave it to the unelected EU. The slogan, take control, really does

mean something. The defections are not all one way, Khalid Mahmood

defected to Remain. He described the side you are on as, quote, trying to

frighten people by concentrating on race and colour. I think it was a

bit naughty of him to say that, because he joined up very early on,

to be honest, did absolutely nothing, and we knew about a month

ago that he was not with us anymore. We told him off a leaflet ages ago.

It is that is you, it is not racist to say you want to control how many

people come into your country. Look at the other democratic countries,

they all have control, outside the EU, of who comes into their country.

How is that racist? So many things are irritating, but workers will

lose all control, lose all their rights, the implication is that

ordinary working people in this country are beholden to the EU, and

it is condescending, you know, your rights are the crumbs of some

bureaucrat's table in Brussels. It is insulting people, and with the

immigration thing, you insult an awful lot of people if you say, this

is all about racism, isolation, xenophobia. People are not stupid,

they are talking to each other and saying, I am pro-immigration but I

support Brexit. A different point of view from the

Labour Party. We're joined now

by the Chuka Umunna. He, like most Labour MPs,

is supporting a vote to remain, and he's in his

constituency in South London. Welcome back to the programme. Do

you agree with Andy Burnham that from your perspective, your side of

the Remain campaign, you have been talking too much to Metropolitan

London and not enough to Labour voters in the Midlands and the

North? I think we need to speak to all Labour voters everywhere. I'm

not a massive fan of this stereotype of people in London being a bunch of

luvvies. I think these are your words, not mine! No, sure! I am sure

you like a latter-day. In Lambeth, in this constituency, and Kate

represents a constituency next door to me, and you have 40% of children

growing up in poverty. The idea that everybody is having a party here is

wrong. We need to appeal to all Labour voters. Can I say something

about the immigration debate and the economy? I don't deny that

immigration poses a challenge to a different communities. I think it is

quite right that we look to do something about undercutting in the

labour market by properly implementing the National Minimum

Wage. It is right that people should contribute to our social security

system before they take out, which they will have to do for at least

four years. But the idea that the challenges that immigration presents

will simply fall away if we leave the European Union, to perpetrate

that, would be a lie and would further undermine people's trusting

all of the different parties. One of the biggest challenges we face right

now is a migration crisis. We have spoken about it before. That was

caused not by what was happening in the EU, but what was happening

primarily in Syria and the Middle East. That will not go away if we

leave the European Union. Let's not forget, there are more people coming

to the UK from outside the European Union than from inside. It is pretty

much 50-50 now. But I don't want to get down to the details. I will be

doing the details on my BBC interviews. My point is, are you not

concerned that this message put articulately by yourself is not

getting through to enough Labour voters? That is what John Mann seems

to be saying and Andy Burnham. Doesn't that concern you?

Absolutely. I am concerned about that. In London when we do speak to

people and they understand our position is to stay in, and let's be

clear, Kate Hoey, Dennis Skinner and John Mann are very much the

minority. The overwhelming majority of Labour MPs want us to stay. Kate

invited me to a debate at a run constituency party and

overwhelmingly they want us to stay in. We have to make sure of our

voters. People say, should Jeremy Corbyn be doing more? I always say

you always want your striker to score more goals. We want him to do

that between now and June 23. If we have the fallout that every

reputable independent economic forecaster says there will be to our

economy if we leave the European Union, it is above all, Labour

voters, middle and lower income voters, who will be hit very hard.

That's why Tom Watson and the team, who were presenting what would

happen if we left, were right to point out the challenge there would

be to the public finances. Who do the Tories usually make pay for

that? They usually make our voters pay by taking away their benefits,

introducing the bedroom tax are dismantling the NHS, tuition fees...

Hold on. I think we will bring that lovely little speech to a halt for a

second. I understand the argument. Why does John Mann, your Labour

colleague, think of the Labour leadership will get a big shock at

the number of Labour members and councillors voting to leave? Given

the argument you just made, why does he think, why is there the prospect

of Sony Labour voters thinking, we will vote to leave? That, I think,

is primarily based on what is happening in his constituency. You

would have two as Kim. I obviously disagree. The overwhelming majority

of members want us to stay. I don't deny there are people like Kate and

John Huh have a different point of view. But I come back to the central

argument. If you care about what I care about, having a job, your

rights at work, the climate change catastrophe, global poverty, I think

we can amplify our ability to deal with those things being in the

European Union as opposed to out. Are you worried you might lose? Yes,

I am worried we might lose. I said so at the beginning. I was never one

of those people who thought that either side was going to

comfortably, really comfortably win this referendum. It will be a close

fought contest. This is good for our democracy. We are having a fantastic

debate. The TV debate last night was interesting and enriches our

democracy. In the end the viewers are in charge. That is how democracy

should be. Chuka Umunna, thank you. Now, tomorrow is the

Queen's birthday. You know she watches this programme.

It is our favourite programme. Wow! That is exciting. She will be busy

today. It's her official birthday,

of course, Events to celebrate

are already under way, but it will also be marked

with the annual announcement And as I haven't heard

from the palace, I can only assume

I've been overlooked again. I think it just got lost in the

post. If you've ever wondered how

the honours are actually handed out, then wonder no more -

here's Mark Lobel. We had a great training session

today, you guys done really well... This is Mike Pusey,

a DJ known to his fans as CK Flash, the founder of this remarkable

bike club - and now an MBE. Entrepreneur Mike was given

the honour after he raised ?1.2 million for this BMX centre

in Peckham, south-east London, inviting underprivileged kids

off the streets away from gangs and crime, and turning them

into cycling sensations. Mike has been teaching

three-year-olds how to do this, Mike and his team of experts,

including nutritionists and psychologists, have been

training his youngsters for years. And unlike me, they have taken

pole position in British, European and World Championships,

with the Rio Olympics next. How did it feel when

you got your MBE? I'm really happy to have it,

and my parents and the family, the community, like I said,

are very proud of me, will be looking to get

the MBE in the future. Mike believes his award is

as much for the community We took over the building,

through employment, cooking lessons. We want to do a lot

more with the kids. So you are constantly raising money

and raising the bar. Does having the MBE help you,

do you think, to do that? I think it does, because a lot

of people that maybe didn't talk to me before, didn't

kind of take it serious, So how did Mike

actually land his MBE? A member of the public nominated

Mike for one of these medals, until John Major's government

reformed the system in the mid '80s to let ordinary people have

a proper say over who gets them. This is the team that would have

processed Mick's nomination, the Cabinet Office's Honours

and Appointments Secretariat. And here is the man in charge

of operations, Alex. Alex, how many nominations

do you get a year? Well, we usually get about

10,000 inquiries from members and that will translate

into about 3000 nominations. Is it right that anybody

in the public can nominate anybody? Yeah, absolutely, the system is open

to absolutely everybody. The only thing the system doesn't

support is self-nominations. We get a few of those, we're getting

very good at spotting those. There's a simple nomination form

on the website - gov.uk/honours. And all the nominations

are then sent before nine independent

selection committees. They make all the hard decisions

and ultimate selections. The largest of those

is the community, voluntary which is chaired by

Dame Clare Tickell. It's not every day

you get to meet a dame in the official archives

room for UK honours. how the committee whittles

down who gets the nod. We don't want people who've just

been doing their job well. We actually want people

who are making extraordinary contributions over

and above their paid jobs, or sometimes their

volunteering jobs. Ethnic minority communities like

Mike's are still underrepresented. One of the biggest things

is that they are not nominated. People in black and minority ethnic

communities, They think, actually,

this is something that they can't necessarily make inroads into,

and that absolutely isn't true. Well, my dream of a knighthood

might have to wait just a little bit longer,

but tomorrow we will find out which hundreds of Brits have

captured people's hearts and will be awarded one of these prestigious

medals in the honours list. Now, are we raising

'Generation Snowflake'? Recent controversies on university

campuses in this country and in the United States have given

rise to accusations that students these days are willing

to take offence at even This year, the University

of Oxford's Oriel College found itself at the centre of a broader

cultural debate when students there complained about a statue

of the imperialist Cecil Rhodes, who was one of the

college benefactors. They argued that Mr Rhodes

was a racist and a colonialist, and should no longer be honoured

by the college. Let's take a look at

some of the protests In putting his murderous colonial

policies into practice, he committed a litany of crimes.

CHEERING. Our guest of the day, Claire Fox,

has written a book called I Find That Offensive!,

arguing that younger generations in particular have

become too thin-skinned. Joining her to discuss the issue

is the writer and campaigner, Welcome. Should there are the almost

no limits on the ability to give Offense? Is it a democratic right to

be offensive? Yes. I am a free-speech absolutist. What I tried

to understand the book was why there was a generation of fragility.

Actually I do not think it is a kind of posture. I think young people, as

a generational phenomena, are finding it harder to cope with

things. There is an immediate instinct to ban, to silence, it

slows down. I want to be heard. I found that when I was doing speeches

that instead of the young, which I anticipated five silly fighting back

and arguing with me, I was expecting to say -- was not expecting that

they would say, you cannot say that. I wanted to understand that and what

is -- that is what I try to explore. You have been on the end of some

criticism. Does it get to you? It certainly gets to you. I would

question the word offensive. When you are talking about offence, there

is a right to be offensive. I don't think we can legislate against a

fence because who decides what is offensive? Once you start allowing

offensive speech to be banned, it is a cycle. For me I think there is a

line of, if you are sending someone threats, threats to their bodily

integrity, which is what I was getting, I do not call that

offensive. I was not offended. I was terrified. That is a difference. I

assume you would agree with that? My only hesitation in relation to this

is, say for example the recent campaign that has been launched

around the Internet, reclaim the Internet etc, the reason I get

nervous is because suddenly what gets described as falling is a very

broad category. -- trolling. Suddenly it goes from death threats

to abuse. Often the abuse, by the way, is disagreement. I had an

article in a newspaper yesterday. It was one of those Twitter storms. The

thing was, people said that I broke the rules of the sisterhood by

saying something about young women being particularly thin-skinned at

the moment, which I am very concerned about. Twitter went mad.

The thing that was interesting was they were accusing me of being the

abusive person who was trolling. Suddenly I am on the receiving end.

Can we agree that death threats are beyond abuse? Things are illegal. Or

threatening violence? I agree that the term trolling has become far too

broad and does a disservice to the people trying to fight against how

women are sent death threats. What do you say to Claire's point that

your generation is to thin-skinned? Putting aside death threats, but the

general, I don't like this argument, you should not make it. I don't

agree with that way of dealing with opinions you disagree with. I differ

from Claire in that I understand the impetus, in that I think you would

say you go by the line, sticks and stones can break my bones, but I

disagree that words cannot hurt you, and I disagree that the way of

dealing with the psychological damage that words can do is to stop

them being said. Ultimately, what you want is to, for example, if you

are fighting against misogyny, you want people to stop being

misogynistic, rather than stopping them from saying it. That rides it

underground and the views are not challenged. Why do think this is a

problem? I think this is what you say in a book, particularly for

young women? I think part of the reason for this is the kind of

encouragement of identity politics and victim politics, and a certain

brand of feminism, you know, the way that you gain most sympathy these

days is to be a victim, and so there is a competition to be the most

victim. Young women are sadly encouraged to do that on a range of

things. And so, you know, you can see why, in the recent higher

education policy Institute report on censorship on free speech on campus,

they have actually said, well, increasing numbers of young people

say there should be no platforming, and the majority of those are women.

I am a fighter for women's liberation and women being strong,

so it scares the hell out of me that they are becoming like that. When I

was at university, it must have been 20 years ago now! When I was at

university, universities were famous for being the places where you could

say anything, that is what we valued. And also we had the time to

do it. It seems now that universities are the places, with

safe space campaigns, that what you can say is being curtailed. Is that

just an impression, or is that what is happening? That is absolutely

what is happening. I think the point about victimhood is really

interesting, because it is almost like it comes out of the censorship

movement that people are aware that, unless you can be the top victim,

you are not going to be allowed to speak, because you are too

privileged. And so it is like a vicious circle, and ultimately

no-one will be allowed to speak. That is the danger, and I think that

is what people are not seeing. It is interesting that more people who had

been advocating and get banned themselves and suddenly realise they

are on the wrong side of it. I have just remembered a phrase that was

popular when I was at university, repressive tolerance, the

authorities were so tolerant that they were really repressing us by

being so tolerant, allowing us to say whatever we wanted! No chance of

that now. There is always a danger, if you have a book that is trying to

describe a generation in one way, that you are like a middle-aged

woman whingeing about young people, right? I just want to point out...

That is what middle-aged women are there for! I get it, and I am

delighted, the people who have most enjoyed the book, from whom I have

the most support, are under 27 or something, right? Are you going to

universities to debate it? I am, and the people who do not like it are

often be well-meaning PC social workers. So there you go. I don't

like you talking about people like that! Thank you very much.

It's time now to find out the answer to our quiz.

Professor Michael Bruter of LSE discovered evidence that young

Putting off booking the summer holiday, DIY, having children or

watching Game Of Thrones? I wanted to be watching Game Of Thrones, but

I suppose booking holidays. No, having children! How can you... ?!

It must be true! The evidence shows and the experts say it must be true!

We will even there. Coming up in a moment,

it's our regular look at what's been going on

in European politics. For now, it's time to say goodbye

to my guest of the day, Claire Fox. So for the next half an hour we're

going to be focussing on Europe. We'll be discussing the EU's

proposals for a deal with countries in the Middle East and Africa,

aimed at tackling the migrant crisis,

the existing deal with Turkey, First, though, here's our guide

to the latest from Europe The European Parliament

agreed to set up an inquiry It's looking specifically

at alleged violations of EU law by the European Commission

and member states. MEPs accused Turkish politicians

of undermining the rule of law by stripping

the immunity of 138 MPs. It means parliamentarians

critical of President Erdogan It will hardly do Turkey

any favours in its bid to join the EU, especially

after the Chancellor Turkey is a key ally,

they are member of Nato, an organisation we on all sides

of the campaign talk up. But is it going to be a member

of the European Union? The Commission proposed new plans

to tackle the migrant crisis by offering financial incentives

to African and Middle Eastern countries to encourage them

to stop people flowing into Europe. And time for a LOL - it looks like

a smiley face or emoji, face but it's actually

the new Slovak presidency logo. after Slovakia takes on the

EU presidency on the 1st of July. And with us for the next 30 minutes,

I've been joined by the Conservative MEP

David Campbell Bannerman. He's supporting a vote to leave

in the upcoming EU referendum. And by the Green MEP Jean Lambert,

who is supporting Remain. Let's take a look at one of

those stories in more detail, and that's the question

of whether Turkey will ever join the EU,

and if so, when. I would suggest to both of you that

neither Remain Leave is totally accurate or honest in this. Let me

come to the Leave, it is true, it is government policy that Turkey should

join the EU at some stage. The Prime Minister is trying to kick it into

the long grass, but even if the Government was putting all its

effort behind Turkey to join, it is a long way off. It has been for some

time, that is true, but it is the as brazen to have Turkey, and we are

spending 1.8 billion on free access and funding. -- but it is the

aspiration to have Turkey, and we are spending 1.8 billion on

pre-accession funding. The process has been restarted and speeded up.

That is fair enough, but on your side of the argument, it is not

going to happen soon, but it is policy that Turkey should join at

some stage, and this referendum is not for tomorrow or the next day -

it is for a long while, so it is fair to raise that, is it not? ? It

is if you are talking about enlargement of the European Union,

but not as shorthand for something else. If Turkey were to join, there

is a long process to go through, and certainly the current government,

many of us consider, is going backwards in meeting the criteria.

You mean the current Turkish government? The current Turkish

government. Moving to a more Islamic... It is more repressive,

not necessarily the fact that it is more Islamic. As you mentioned, what

is happening to the immunity of people from the left-wing Kurdish

party. So, yes, it is on the table at some point. I am assuming that,

you know, given what the Government here has proposed in terms of future

referenda, that would be a treaty change and a decision that is not on

the table yet. And that a reasonable level of agreement, let's see if I

can do better! The deal the EU struck with Turkey

to stem the flow of migrants crossing into Greece seems

to have been effective - But can and should

that deal be repeated with other countries

in Africa and the Middle East? The moment when hope turned

to fear in May on the Med. This footage from the Italian navy

was a chilling reminder of how Thousands have died attempting

the journey to Europe since 2014, But dealing with and sorting

through the influx of migrants has also created domestic political

problems for Europe's political leaders after more than 200,000

have arrived so far this year. The number of migrants arriving

in Greece has dropped after the EU promised Turkey billions

of pounds in aid for better sea and border controls,

although the promise of visa-free travel for Turkish citizens

within the Schengen zone continues On Tuesday, the European Commission

announced the outline of a new ?50 billion deal

with the Middle East The partnership plan proposes

trade deals and more investment to stem the flow

of migrants to the EU. Top of the list are Jordan

and Lebanon, hosting 1.8 million Syrian refugees,

as well as Niger, Nigeria, Senegal, Mali and Ethiopia,

countries migrants leave from or travel through

to get to Europe. The key coastal state of Libya

and Tunisia, where EU cash would bolster

border and sea controls. And, somewhat controversially,

cash for countries with poor humanitarian records,

like Eritrea and Sudan, So often on the back foot

during this migration crisis, EU leaders have been

trying desperately hard to regain the initiative -

now they think they have. We propose to use a mix of positive

and negative incentives, to reward those countries

willing to cooperate and to ensure that there are

consequences for those who do not. This includes using

our development and trade policies If this is the EU's big push

on controlling migration, then bear in mind that this

is not new money pledged, It relies on the ambition that

member states will also match EU funding, and on the hope

that private and public backers The proposals will require approval

by EU governments and the EU Parliament, but one Eurosceptic MEP

has already dismissed them. Saying that we should stabilise

the countries of origin I mean, what are we going to do

in the intervening 30 years? Definitely, the European Union

should be opening its markets Probably the most immoral trade

policy in the world at the moment is the EU's

Common Agricultural Policy. It means that not only

are producers, exporters in developing countries,

denied Europe's markets, it means they then have to very

often face unfair competition against subsidised

EU produce at home. there is a moral dilemma

for the EU leaders too. I think the European Union has found

it's quite difficult to deal with the problem with

the existing policies that it's got. So what it's doing, in effect,

is trying to retrofit its existing policies to cope with the political

problem that it hadn't anticipated. The problem is, how you move

from a situation in which you have a group of countries which don't

necessarily have the institutions, the rule of law and democracy,

which looks and feels So with its latest plan

to control migration, the EU finds itself under fire

over its protectionist trade policies and questioned

over how it will handle autocrats. There is no simple solution to what

could be a decades-long problem. When you look at the scale of some

of the problems facing the country is that we are talking about here,

about nine of them, Ethiopia, Mali, Niger, Senegal, is this not just a

drop in the ocean? I think it potentially is, in many respects,

some of us think it is a drop in the ocean. And the other hand, it is at

least an effort to try and do something, as was being said. But,

you know, it has to go hand-in-hand with a set of other policy areas

too, whether that is looking again at development aid and how

effectively it is working. Certainly, issues about trade policy

and what we are doing, what more can be done to help job creation in the

country so that young people there have some opportunities, so they

feel that their country is not broken. What is your take? Well, we

have tried it with Turkey, bribing them, offering them trade deals,

cash, 62 billion has been mentioned,... But that is not, with

Turkey, it is not really geared at Turkish nationals, it is the almost

3 million refugees who fled the war zone to go to Turkey - it is a big

problem, but a different problem. The approach is quite similar, and

the press release says that, it is quite similar to Turkey. My worry is

that, as Oxfam have complained, this could go to some very nasty

governments with very poor human rights records, and is there any

guarantee it will work? That is an issue in Eritrea, the Sudan, where

human rights are appalling, that is why people are fleeing in the first

place. It is in Eritrea where it is compulsory to join the army and so

on. There are heavy penalties. A horrible existence. But should we,

because in the end this is government to government aid, we are

not really just bolstering the existing regimes with this money?

I think there is a risk of that. It is important when we look at a that

more NGOs would work on the ground and you would circumvent the

government. Other places with stable governments, it would be direct

budget support within the government. That is what we do in

places like Bangladesh. Yes, there are still questions but it is a

different sort of thing. The important part of it is whatever you

are doing, you still keep the human rights agenda on the table. You do

not shut your eyes to that. I assume you agree with the point that one of

the reasons these countries, a lot of them agricultural, are not helped

by the protectionism that goes with the common agricultural policy? I

fully agree with Dan. It is disgraceful. Many of these countries

find it hard to compete. You are dumping cheap food. It is a two

process, you say? Yes. Do you agree with that? It is a criticism the

Green Party has made for a while. It is interesting to see who is getting

on board! There is no European assistance to help countries reach

the standards, the hygiene standards and the like, for food. There is

also a question in terms of the development. We are looking at what

you can do to add value in the country of origin. That has when the

tariffs increase though for the moment. The EU then put a higher

tariff. This is where the everything but arms trade procedures for the

poorest countries in the world has been extremely important in that. In

terms of offering support in how they develop not only their markets,

the EU, but internally. The idea of a blue card system for the EU is

roughly based on the green card system in Iraq. Good, bad,

indifferent? It has not been used much today. It has not been

successful. Is it worth a try? Worth a try. Worth the right sort of

direction. By the way, if we leave the European Union, we will be

outside the customs union, therefore we could cut tariffs on a lot of

these developing countries. We will see how that goes down with British

voters. If the UK votes to remain in the UK

on the 23rd of June, how Will they be keen to help us achieve

David Cameron's renegotiation, or will they perhaps be

a bit miffed? And if we leave, will they want

to send a message by putting the UK through the wringer,

or strike a new relationship with us European politicians and officials

try to avoid talking about it too much, but here's

what a few have said. German Finance Minister Wolfgang

Schauble reportedly told his UK counterpart, George Osborne,

that his country would be tough in what he described in an interview

as "years of the most And French economy minister,

Emmanuel Macron, has warned Britain would be "completely killed"

in trade talks if the country votes "We have to be very clear that

Brexit will have But Leave campaigners argue

that the UK would "continue to thrive" even outside

the EU's single market. And leaving the EU would also let

the UK take back control over its ability to trade more

freely with the rest of the world. Plus, they argue, the European

project is a steam roller and that we remain in, Britain will be

flattened. I suppose the difficult thing is, until it happens we don't

know. Of course European politicians at the moment want us to stay. They

say it will be tough if we leave. If they said, vote to leave and you can

have what you want... I am on the trade committee. We are doing trade

deals over the world. Canada is held up a bit. We are doing Australia and

New Zealand. India. The model of running your own country and getting

a great trade deal with the EU is proven in that sense. Except nobody

will ever have been in our position if we vote to leave, that is unique.

Greenland is about the closest. That is a stretch. Did -- it makes it

easier to do a trade deal in the sense that we are already compliant

now because we are members of the EU. We do not have the tariffs to

negotiate. We don't have that problem. What is your honest

assessment to it is most impossible to tell, I know. Supposedly voted to

leave that smacks of those we vote to leave, Article 50 is ignited.

What would the mood be like in the European capital is dealing with

this? I think it would be mixed. There would be a question of...

There are strong relationships that have been fought over years. There

are obviously trade implications for the European Union. However, given

what we know about the rise of the hard right in countries such as

France and the like, I think there would also be a very strong desire

to have a clear message that of other countries want to go down this

road, this is not going to be sunshine ever after and almost no

change. In case it encourages them. The other key issue will also be the

very vexed question of free movement. And that if we decide, and

we don't quite know who will be tickling -- doing the negotiation

from the UK, your party will sort that, but if that is going to be a

key issue, I think a lot of other things become very difficult. You

will then be very grateful for the work I have been doing on EU

migration policy. To find out what your rights are. We are only being

hypothetical, but if we are out of the EU, will be not be confronted by

an existential choice? You can have free movement within the EU and you

can have the single market. But you cannot pick and choose. This is a

fallacy we have heard from Remain. Only four out of 140 trade

agreements the EU has, as free movement. Two of those, Switzerland

and Lichtenstein, they are getting rid of freedom of movement.

Switzerland does not know what to do. The EU is now even refusing to

talk because they say, look, access to the single market? You have to

give the borders open. The thing that people do not realise,

including President Obama, is that we have a guaranteed rules -based

deal which is non-negotiable. We have already signed a treaty. It is

the same relationship the EU has with the US at the moment, Canada

and India. There is a fallback position. What you were talking

about is a better trade deal on top, which all of us want. The former

head of the German CBI says, of course there will be a trade deal.

They all say that, they don't want us to leave. Let's see what the

conditions are. We will have to find that out.

Now, Malta is the smallest and most densely populated EU member state.

It's got a population about the size of Bristol.

So what's been the effect of 12 years of EU membership on this

Here's Adam with the latest in our series, meet the neighbours.

It's like Game of Thrones meets the boat race. This is Malta's Freedom

Day bank holiday regatta when crews from the Valletta harbour face each

other in an audio of rowing, falling in and I think swearing. Hi, Andy.

Things are more genteel with Andy. Like a lot of the people on these

islands, he is part Maltese Cummer Park British and he loves the Royal

family. In fact, he has had that Prince William on the back of his

water taxi. I got and interests -- a letter from Buckingham Palace saying

how much he enjoyed the trip. It is one of my greatest treasures. There

are bits of bridges and over the place. Do we even have these any

more? Malta is one of three EU countries that are in the

Commonwealth along with the UK and Cyprus. This is a country with half

a million people. It is rare that we have the occasion to sit around the

same table with economic superpower is not coming from Europe. Without

such a platform it would be extremely difficult for smaller, or

even micro-states, to put forward their arguments, which are

essentially existential on whether they survive or not. Right now,

Malta chose the Commonwealth and next year will hold the rotating

presidency of the EU at the same time. Jackpot! You would be amazed

at the sort of interest that there is amongst European countries to get

to know what makes this organisation, -- called the

Commonwealth tick. It is very difficult to find one other

organisation worldwide which has such a diverse composition. Well, it

has its problems, so we are trying, during our time in the presidency of

the Commonwealth, to to put forward the issue of say, gay rights. The

regatta is over. It is clear that membership of the Commonwealth and

the European Union helps Malta to punch above its weight. It trades

much more with the EU, suggesting that is the more powerful pairing.

Add in Malta. I've never been to Malta. You have. It is a really

interesting place with masses of history. Really, really. For them,

being of the table is really important, just as being at the

table for us is going to be important. Their future they see

with the European Union. A small place like Malta can feel that it

stayed as a troll is enhanced because it is in the European Union.

You have been there as well. Yes, I have. It is a beautiful place. They

took a huge pounding during the war from the Nazis? Proportionally the

highest in Europe and the world. Very brave people. A lot of history.

I'm a great fan of Malta. I think there is a bit of a contest between

its British history and the EU, actually. There is not a sign it

wants to leave? No. It was a close-run vote at the time but that

has been resolved. Do think it is pretty settled within the EU? Yes,

it has settled within the European Union. It has a voice. It is the

seat of the European asylum support office now. Kind of the front line

of the Mediterranean. Very much so. Therefore it really feels that the

solution to problems around migration, climate, whatever, are

very much in the European Union. They will not follow Britain if we

did leave? No, we might follow them though, because they're very

crowded. We might be as crowded as Malta.

Fans of the Game of Thrones may have noticed that some of the scenes

there are shot in Malta. The non-rainy bits. The rainy bits are

in Northern Ireland. That's it for now. Thanks for joining us. Bye-bye.

discover there's more than the air beneath the wings