10/06/2016 Daily Politics


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.


As Labour is warned it's talking too much to Hampstead instead of Hull,


the party tries to get on the front foot over the EU referendum,


claiming that a vote to leave will hit working people hard.


There was no love lost between Leave and Remain camps


in the first real TV debate of the campaign.


We'll be chewing over their performance.


We'll be looking at the EU's new plan to stem the flow


of migrants from Africa with the offer of financial help.


Are our universities really now filled with students determined


And with us for the first half of the programme today


She's the director of the Institute of Ideas -


which is handy, as we're always short of a few fresh


ideas on this show - and she's also supporting a vote


to leave in the EU referendum, just so you know.


So let's begin by talking about last night's ITV debate


It was the first real debate of the campaign,


after big figures on the Remain side like David Cameron refused to go


head to head with their opponents, preferring instead interviews


or question and answers. So what did we learn?


Well, the Leave camp were hammering home their slogan "Take control",


while Remain hammered home their criticism


of Boris Johnson. Let's have a look.


There isn't a silver bullet, and I know that's what Boris


and his team would like to have, but you need to look at the numbers,


although I fear the only number that Boris is interested in


There is a member of that panel who's complained about the Remain


campaign and said that it's miserable, negative and fear based,


and fear-based campaigning of this kind


starts to insult people's intelligence.


Nicola Sturgeon... Boris Johnson is not interested...


Please, Nicola Sturgeon, we must allow Boris Johnson to respond.


He is only interested in David Cameron's job. Thank you.


What we are hearing from the Remain side,


particularly from Nicola Sturgeon, is that in fact we should stay


in the European Union because, as this country elected


a Conservative government, we need to stay in the


European Union so that it can overrule a democratically elected


government and then do what she wants it to do.


Boris, you don't seem to care about the millions of jobs


that will be at risk if we leave the EU.


I think you only care about one job, and that's your next one.


I don't think that you care, sorry. I'm afraid I missed the insult!


I don't think that you care about the...


I told you it was pretty feisty! Let's talk about it.


And to talk about the debate we're joined by George Pascoe-Watson


from the public-relations firm Portland Communications.


Could use some this up, Remain side, Boris bad, Boris bad, Boris bad, and


on the Leave side, take control, take control? Yes, and the essence


of great communication is delivering a very clear idea, and let's look at


the Leave side, no question that the one message that the audience would


take aways take control, and they seem to be getting some amends with


the idea that this is all about immigration and losing control of


our borders. -- some momentum. That is where they are fundamentally on


winning ground. But Remain had two ideas, painting Boris Johnson out to


be somebody who cannot be trusted, let's not forget we had three women


on the Remain side, that was unique. Also talking to the ITV audience,


which is more female than male. They are both trying to win support from


the undecideds, so tried to portray Boris as someone you cannot trust,


but Amber Rudd was saying, think about the economics, which is an


important issue for women voters, and the other two were talking about


the positives, in their view, for remaining in the EU. But Amber Rudd


also joined in with the ganging up on Boris Johnson, you can accept


Nicola Sturgeon and Angela Eagle going to attack, that is part of


their job, but is it not surprising, following on from John Major's


attack on Sunday, now Amber Rudd? It is a fair assumption that Downing


Street has approved of these attacks, and one of the attacks is


that it is not safe to go home in a car with Boris Johnson. The level of


personal animus is now huge. And the main thing is that it is completely


apolitical, it destroys the campaign of any notion of having something


important at stake. I thought Remain did very badly in relation to that.


Boris bashing might be fun, you might get cheap applause, but it is


vicious in personality politics, and it makes Boris looked rather


statesman-like that he does not reduce himself to either responding


to applying same game. The irony is that it's likely backfires. There is


another way of looking at that, which is they are kind to me did a


bit of a sham campaign for Boris, saying that he does not really


believe in this. But think about it, Remain are full of people who do not


really believe in this, so they have got a note. That campaign is full of


Eurosceptics from the Tory party who have wanted to be anti-EU for ever


and suddenly Remainers and enthusiastic. The Labour Party is


completely split, because the left wing instinct would be to get out of


this union. We are told this is the biggest decision the British Beagle


will take for at least a generation, so why would the British people care


what Amber Rudd thinks about Boris Johnson? Surely they want to know,


are we better off in or out? What is our future in the 21st century, in


or out? I would say the idea was there to pick holes in Boris Johnson


as a character, because the point about leaving is that he would


probably be the leader of the country in that event over time, and


it puts a doubt in people's mines, that would be their strategy.


Because they think he may be Prime Minister. I understand that the


Remain campaign's private polling, in terms of trust on this issue,


Boris Johnson comes quite high. He does. They are trying to chip away


at his credibility. If you are depending on Boris Johnson to tell


you which way to vote and his credibility is shot, it is important


strategically for the Remain campaign to do that. They are


winning on the numbers on NHS and immigration, so that is what it was


all about last night, in my opinion. It was interesting that the Leave


side, although it was Boris Johnson and a Labour politician too, they


seemed to be singing from the same song sheet more so than Remain. I


didn't think they did a bad job, and I am for Brexit, but I have been


very critical of a lot of the Leave campaign. I am not part of any


official campaign, and they have driven me mad, to be honest, my


side! I had two young colleagues who were in the audience, and they are


undecided, right? What did they say? Veering towards remain, if I am


frank. I have not ask them in detail. They thought that the Remain


people treated them with contempt and were patronising, and they were


furious with the Boris bashing. They felt that intelligence was insulted,


and they came away more towards Brexit. They were genuinely young


undecided people trying to work it out. Are they veering Remain? Brexit


because of the way they were treated by Remain. It is interesting about


the strategy advice, strategists are very good at giving advice, but they


sometimes give it in a bubble without any sense of having the


finger on the pulse of the people. We need to move on, we thank you for


that. In two weeks' time, we shall know the result.


And if you haven't had enough of watching the politicians


being grilled on the EU - and we know you haven't -


you can watch me interview Ukip leader Nigel Farage at 7.30


The question for today - what are couples said to be


putting off until after the EU referendum on the 23rd June?


Is it booking their summer holiday, DIY, having children,


or watching the latest series of Game Of Thrones?


And later on in the show, Claire will give us the correct answer.


The Labour Party is this morning attempting to ramp up its campaign


to persuade voters they should vote to remain in the EU.


And it sounds like there's still plenty to do.


Last night, Shadow Home Secretary Andy Burnham warned a British exit


was a "very real prospect". Here he is speaking to Newsnight.


We've definitely been far too much Hampstead


I think here we are, two weeks away from the very real prospect


that Britain will vote for isolation.


With reports that the party's pro-EU message is meeting with a pretty


hostile reception on the doorstep, two well-known Labour MPs have today


One is the veteran Dennis Skinner, the other John Mann,


who says his colleagues at Westminster are


when they find out how many Labour members will vote to leave.


This morning, Labour's deputy leader, Tom Watson,


used a speech to try to persuade them otherwise.


He warned that voting to leave could lead to ?18 billion


Come the 24th of June, we face a double threat


to our living standards if we vote to leave.


A big black hole in the public finances, and an unfair Tory


government that will make ordinary families pay the price


He's correctly making clear, which I didn't, that the 18 billion figure


is a combination of, he says, taxes, tax rises and spending cuts.


Well, we're joined now by one Labour MP


who is already backing the Leave campaign.


I know it is difficult for you to be objective, but be honest, are you


really sensing, on your Labour colleagues who are vote to remain,


that getting the Labour vote is more difficult than they thought? Oh,


absolutely, and I have felt that in the last month in particular, when I


have gone out and around, and I think what a lot of my colleagues


have been picking up on, I knew there would always be some MPs


coming out, and we have still got one or two more, quite senior ones,


but it is a feeling out there that all of this pier stuff has gone over


their heads. They are fed up, they feel this is payback time for the


way they have been ignored for years and years, and I genuinely do


feel... Do you think the establishment mood is taking hold of


those voting to leave? There is a feeling that nobody has listen to


them, and they are really beginning to believe this is their one chance.


Both sides are saying this is the most important decision they will


take, and they are beginning to believe that. I saw it in my own


patch, where last weekend, when I went out that are you are in central


London. London is always different, a bit of a bubble, but one of my


Labour estates, people were coming out, genuinely, and saying, we are


with you, we want to leave. Afro-Caribbean is where saying that


they understood the immigration thing, they understood that this is


about getting rid of discrimination in immigration. -- Afro-Caribbeans


were saying. If you win, are you not worried about the prospect of a


Conservative government run by Boris Johnson and Michael Gove? I believe


in democracy, and they have been elected... Not to make a government.


There will be a new leader whatever happens, I cannot see David Cameron


staying. The feeling among some of the Remainer MPs, they are not happy


about the whole thing. I am not concerned. I think this idea that


somehow they will immediately get rid of all trade union rights and so


on, it is just nonsense, it really is nonsense. And, you know, I would


rather be certain that we have a government we can get rid of, than


leave it to the unelected EU. The slogan, take control, really does


mean something. The defections are not all one way, Khalid Mahmood


defected to Remain. He described the side you are on as, quote, trying to


frighten people by concentrating on race and colour. I think it was a


bit naughty of him to say that, because he joined up very early on,


to be honest, did absolutely nothing, and we knew about a month


ago that he was not with us anymore. We told him off a leaflet ages ago.


It is that is you, it is not racist to say you want to control how many


people come into your country. Look at the other democratic countries,


they all have control, outside the EU, of who comes into their country.


How is that racist? So many things are irritating, but workers will


lose all control, lose all their rights, the implication is that


ordinary working people in this country are beholden to the EU, and


it is condescending, you know, your rights are the crumbs of some


bureaucrat's table in Brussels. It is insulting people, and with the


immigration thing, you insult an awful lot of people if you say, this


is all about racism, isolation, xenophobia. People are not stupid,


they are talking to each other and saying, I am pro-immigration but I


support Brexit. A different point of view from the


Labour Party. We're joined now


by the Chuka Umunna. He, like most Labour MPs,


is supporting a vote to remain, and he's in his


constituency in South London. Welcome back to the programme. Do


you agree with Andy Burnham that from your perspective, your side of


the Remain campaign, you have been talking too much to Metropolitan


London and not enough to Labour voters in the Midlands and the


North? I think we need to speak to all Labour voters everywhere. I'm


not a massive fan of this stereotype of people in London being a bunch of


luvvies. I think these are your words, not mine! No, sure! I am sure


you like a latter-day. In Lambeth, in this constituency, and Kate


represents a constituency next door to me, and you have 40% of children


growing up in poverty. The idea that everybody is having a party here is


wrong. We need to appeal to all Labour voters. Can I say something


about the immigration debate and the economy? I don't deny that


immigration poses a challenge to a different communities. I think it is


quite right that we look to do something about undercutting in the


labour market by properly implementing the National Minimum


Wage. It is right that people should contribute to our social security


system before they take out, which they will have to do for at least


four years. But the idea that the challenges that immigration presents


will simply fall away if we leave the European Union, to perpetrate


that, would be a lie and would further undermine people's trusting


all of the different parties. One of the biggest challenges we face right


now is a migration crisis. We have spoken about it before. That was


caused not by what was happening in the EU, but what was happening


primarily in Syria and the Middle East. That will not go away if we


leave the European Union. Let's not forget, there are more people coming


to the UK from outside the European Union than from inside. It is pretty


much 50-50 now. But I don't want to get down to the details. I will be


doing the details on my BBC interviews. My point is, are you not


concerned that this message put articulately by yourself is not


getting through to enough Labour voters? That is what John Mann seems


to be saying and Andy Burnham. Doesn't that concern you?


Absolutely. I am concerned about that. In London when we do speak to


people and they understand our position is to stay in, and let's be


clear, Kate Hoey, Dennis Skinner and John Mann are very much the


minority. The overwhelming majority of Labour MPs want us to stay. Kate


invited me to a debate at a run constituency party and


overwhelmingly they want us to stay in. We have to make sure of our


voters. People say, should Jeremy Corbyn be doing more? I always say


you always want your striker to score more goals. We want him to do


that between now and June 23. If we have the fallout that every


reputable independent economic forecaster says there will be to our


economy if we leave the European Union, it is above all, Labour


voters, middle and lower income voters, who will be hit very hard.


That's why Tom Watson and the team, who were presenting what would


happen if we left, were right to point out the challenge there would


be to the public finances. Who do the Tories usually make pay for


that? They usually make our voters pay by taking away their benefits,


introducing the bedroom tax are dismantling the NHS, tuition fees...


Hold on. I think we will bring that lovely little speech to a halt for a


second. I understand the argument. Why does John Mann, your Labour


colleague, think of the Labour leadership will get a big shock at


the number of Labour members and councillors voting to leave? Given


the argument you just made, why does he think, why is there the prospect


of Sony Labour voters thinking, we will vote to leave? That, I think,


is primarily based on what is happening in his constituency. You


would have two as Kim. I obviously disagree. The overwhelming majority


of members want us to stay. I don't deny there are people like Kate and


John Huh have a different point of view. But I come back to the central


argument. If you care about what I care about, having a job, your


rights at work, the climate change catastrophe, global poverty, I think


we can amplify our ability to deal with those things being in the


European Union as opposed to out. Are you worried you might lose? Yes,


I am worried we might lose. I said so at the beginning. I was never one


of those people who thought that either side was going to


comfortably, really comfortably win this referendum. It will be a close


fought contest. This is good for our democracy. We are having a fantastic


debate. The TV debate last night was interesting and enriches our


democracy. In the end the viewers are in charge. That is how democracy


should be. Chuka Umunna, thank you. Now, tomorrow is the


Queen's birthday. You know she watches this programme.


It is our favourite programme. Wow! That is exciting. She will be busy


today. It's her official birthday,


of course, Events to celebrate


are already under way, but it will also be marked


with the annual announcement And as I haven't heard


from the palace, I can only assume


I've been overlooked again. I think it just got lost in the


post. If you've ever wondered how


the honours are actually handed out, then wonder no more -


here's Mark Lobel. We had a great training session


today, you guys done really well... This is Mike Pusey,


a DJ known to his fans as CK Flash, the founder of this remarkable


bike club - and now an MBE. Entrepreneur Mike was given


the honour after he raised ?1.2 million for this BMX centre


in Peckham, south-east London, inviting underprivileged kids


off the streets away from gangs and crime, and turning them


into cycling sensations. Mike has been teaching


three-year-olds how to do this, Mike and his team of experts,


including nutritionists and psychologists, have been


training his youngsters for years. And unlike me, they have taken


pole position in British, European and World Championships,


with the Rio Olympics next. How did it feel when


you got your MBE? I'm really happy to have it,


and my parents and the family, the community, like I said,


are very proud of me, will be looking to get


the MBE in the future. Mike believes his award is


as much for the community We took over the building,


through employment, cooking lessons. We want to do a lot


more with the kids. So you are constantly raising money


and raising the bar. Does having the MBE help you,


do you think, to do that? I think it does, because a lot


of people that maybe didn't talk to me before, didn't


kind of take it serious, So how did Mike


actually land his MBE? A member of the public nominated


Mike for one of these medals, until John Major's government


reformed the system in the mid '80s to let ordinary people have


a proper say over who gets them. This is the team that would have


processed Mick's nomination, the Cabinet Office's Honours


and Appointments Secretariat. And here is the man in charge


of operations, Alex. Alex, how many nominations


do you get a year? Well, we usually get about


10,000 inquiries from members and that will translate


into about 3000 nominations. Is it right that anybody


in the public can nominate anybody? Yeah, absolutely, the system is open


to absolutely everybody. The only thing the system doesn't


support is self-nominations. We get a few of those, we're getting


very good at spotting those. There's a simple nomination form


on the website - gov.uk/honours. And all the nominations


are then sent before nine independent


selection committees. They make all the hard decisions


and ultimate selections. The largest of those


is the community, voluntary which is chaired by


Dame Clare Tickell. It's not every day


you get to meet a dame in the official archives


room for UK honours. how the committee whittles


down who gets the nod. We don't want people who've just


been doing their job well. We actually want people


who are making extraordinary contributions over


and above their paid jobs, or sometimes their


volunteering jobs. Ethnic minority communities like


Mike's are still underrepresented. One of the biggest things


is that they are not nominated. People in black and minority ethnic


communities, They think, actually,


this is something that they can't necessarily make inroads into,


and that absolutely isn't true. Well, my dream of a knighthood


might have to wait just a little bit longer,


but tomorrow we will find out which hundreds of Brits have


captured people's hearts and will be awarded one of these prestigious


medals in the honours list. Now, are we raising


'Generation Snowflake'? Recent controversies on university


campuses in this country and in the United States have given


rise to accusations that students these days are willing


to take offence at even This year, the University


of Oxford's Oriel College found itself at the centre of a broader


cultural debate when students there complained about a statue


of the imperialist Cecil Rhodes, who was one of the


college benefactors. They argued that Mr Rhodes


was a racist and a colonialist, and should no longer be honoured


by the college. Let's take a look at


some of the protests In putting his murderous colonial


policies into practice, he committed a litany of crimes.


CHEERING. Our guest of the day, Claire Fox,


has written a book called I Find That Offensive!,


arguing that younger generations in particular have


become too thin-skinned. Joining her to discuss the issue


is the writer and campaigner, Welcome. Should there are the almost


no limits on the ability to give Offense? Is it a democratic right to


be offensive? Yes. I am a free-speech absolutist. What I tried


to understand the book was why there was a generation of fragility.


Actually I do not think it is a kind of posture. I think young people, as


a generational phenomena, are finding it harder to cope with


things. There is an immediate instinct to ban, to silence, it


slows down. I want to be heard. I found that when I was doing speeches


that instead of the young, which I anticipated five silly fighting back


and arguing with me, I was expecting to say -- was not expecting that


they would say, you cannot say that. I wanted to understand that and what


is -- that is what I try to explore. You have been on the end of some


criticism. Does it get to you? It certainly gets to you. I would


question the word offensive. When you are talking about offence, there


is a right to be offensive. I don't think we can legislate against a


fence because who decides what is offensive? Once you start allowing


offensive speech to be banned, it is a cycle. For me I think there is a


line of, if you are sending someone threats, threats to their bodily


integrity, which is what I was getting, I do not call that


offensive. I was not offended. I was terrified. That is a difference. I


assume you would agree with that? My only hesitation in relation to this


is, say for example the recent campaign that has been launched


around the Internet, reclaim the Internet etc, the reason I get


nervous is because suddenly what gets described as falling is a very


broad category. -- trolling. Suddenly it goes from death threats


to abuse. Often the abuse, by the way, is disagreement. I had an


article in a newspaper yesterday. It was one of those Twitter storms. The


thing was, people said that I broke the rules of the sisterhood by


saying something about young women being particularly thin-skinned at


the moment, which I am very concerned about. Twitter went mad.


The thing that was interesting was they were accusing me of being the


abusive person who was trolling. Suddenly I am on the receiving end.


Can we agree that death threats are beyond abuse? Things are illegal. Or


threatening violence? I agree that the term trolling has become far too


broad and does a disservice to the people trying to fight against how


women are sent death threats. What do you say to Claire's point that


your generation is to thin-skinned? Putting aside death threats, but the


general, I don't like this argument, you should not make it. I don't


agree with that way of dealing with opinions you disagree with. I differ


from Claire in that I understand the impetus, in that I think you would


say you go by the line, sticks and stones can break my bones, but I


disagree that words cannot hurt you, and I disagree that the way of


dealing with the psychological damage that words can do is to stop


them being said. Ultimately, what you want is to, for example, if you


are fighting against misogyny, you want people to stop being


misogynistic, rather than stopping them from saying it. That rides it


underground and the views are not challenged. Why do think this is a


problem? I think this is what you say in a book, particularly for


young women? I think part of the reason for this is the kind of


encouragement of identity politics and victim politics, and a certain


brand of feminism, you know, the way that you gain most sympathy these


days is to be a victim, and so there is a competition to be the most


victim. Young women are sadly encouraged to do that on a range of


things. And so, you know, you can see why, in the recent higher


education policy Institute report on censorship on free speech on campus,


they have actually said, well, increasing numbers of young people


say there should be no platforming, and the majority of those are women.


I am a fighter for women's liberation and women being strong,


so it scares the hell out of me that they are becoming like that. When I


was at university, it must have been 20 years ago now! When I was at


university, universities were famous for being the places where you could


say anything, that is what we valued. And also we had the time to


do it. It seems now that universities are the places, with


safe space campaigns, that what you can say is being curtailed. Is that


just an impression, or is that what is happening? That is absolutely


what is happening. I think the point about victimhood is really


interesting, because it is almost like it comes out of the censorship


movement that people are aware that, unless you can be the top victim,


you are not going to be allowed to speak, because you are too


privileged. And so it is like a vicious circle, and ultimately


no-one will be allowed to speak. That is the danger, and I think that


is what people are not seeing. It is interesting that more people who had


been advocating and get banned themselves and suddenly realise they


are on the wrong side of it. I have just remembered a phrase that was


popular when I was at university, repressive tolerance, the


authorities were so tolerant that they were really repressing us by


being so tolerant, allowing us to say whatever we wanted! No chance of


that now. There is always a danger, if you have a book that is trying to


describe a generation in one way, that you are like a middle-aged


woman whingeing about young people, right? I just want to point out...


That is what middle-aged women are there for! I get it, and I am


delighted, the people who have most enjoyed the book, from whom I have


the most support, are under 27 or something, right? Are you going to


universities to debate it? I am, and the people who do not like it are


often be well-meaning PC social workers. So there you go. I don't


like you talking about people like that! Thank you very much.


It's time now to find out the answer to our quiz.


Professor Michael Bruter of LSE discovered evidence that young


Putting off booking the summer holiday, DIY, having children or


watching Game Of Thrones? I wanted to be watching Game Of Thrones, but


I suppose booking holidays. No, having children! How can you... ?!


It must be true! The evidence shows and the experts say it must be true!


We will even there. Coming up in a moment,


it's our regular look at what's been going on


in European politics. For now, it's time to say goodbye


to my guest of the day, Claire Fox. So for the next half an hour we're


going to be focussing on Europe. We'll be discussing the EU's


proposals for a deal with countries in the Middle East and Africa,


aimed at tackling the migrant crisis,


the existing deal with Turkey, First, though, here's our guide


to the latest from Europe The European Parliament


agreed to set up an inquiry It's looking specifically


at alleged violations of EU law by the European Commission


and member states. MEPs accused Turkish politicians


of undermining the rule of law by stripping


the immunity of 138 MPs. It means parliamentarians


critical of President Erdogan It will hardly do Turkey


any favours in its bid to join the EU, especially


after the Chancellor Turkey is a key ally,


they are member of Nato, an organisation we on all sides


of the campaign talk up. But is it going to be a member


of the European Union? The Commission proposed new plans


to tackle the migrant crisis by offering financial incentives


to African and Middle Eastern countries to encourage them


to stop people flowing into Europe. And time for a LOL - it looks like


a smiley face or emoji, face but it's actually


the new Slovak presidency logo. after Slovakia takes on the


EU presidency on the 1st of July. And with us for the next 30 minutes,


I've been joined by the Conservative MEP


David Campbell Bannerman. He's supporting a vote to leave


in the upcoming EU referendum. And by the Green MEP Jean Lambert,


who is supporting Remain. Let's take a look at one of


those stories in more detail, and that's the question


of whether Turkey will ever join the EU,


and if so, when. I would suggest to both of you that


neither Remain Leave is totally accurate or honest in this. Let me


come to the Leave, it is true, it is government policy that Turkey should


join the EU at some stage. The Prime Minister is trying to kick it into


the long grass, but even if the Government was putting all its


effort behind Turkey to join, it is a long way off. It has been for some


time, that is true, but it is the as brazen to have Turkey, and we are


spending 1.8 billion on free access and funding. -- but it is the


aspiration to have Turkey, and we are spending 1.8 billion on


pre-accession funding. The process has been restarted and speeded up.


That is fair enough, but on your side of the argument, it is not


going to happen soon, but it is policy that Turkey should join at


some stage, and this referendum is not for tomorrow or the next day -


it is for a long while, so it is fair to raise that, is it not? ? It


is if you are talking about enlargement of the European Union,


but not as shorthand for something else. If Turkey were to join, there


is a long process to go through, and certainly the current government,


many of us consider, is going backwards in meeting the criteria.


You mean the current Turkish government? The current Turkish


government. Moving to a more Islamic... It is more repressive,


not necessarily the fact that it is more Islamic. As you mentioned, what


is happening to the immunity of people from the left-wing Kurdish


party. So, yes, it is on the table at some point. I am assuming that,


you know, given what the Government here has proposed in terms of future


referenda, that would be a treaty change and a decision that is not on


the table yet. And that a reasonable level of agreement, let's see if I


can do better! The deal the EU struck with Turkey


to stem the flow of migrants crossing into Greece seems


to have been effective - But can and should


that deal be repeated with other countries


in Africa and the Middle East? The moment when hope turned


to fear in May on the Med. This footage from the Italian navy


was a chilling reminder of how Thousands have died attempting


the journey to Europe since 2014, But dealing with and sorting


through the influx of migrants has also created domestic political


problems for Europe's political leaders after more than 200,000


have arrived so far this year. The number of migrants arriving


in Greece has dropped after the EU promised Turkey billions


of pounds in aid for better sea and border controls,


although the promise of visa-free travel for Turkish citizens


within the Schengen zone continues On Tuesday, the European Commission


announced the outline of a new ?50 billion deal


with the Middle East The partnership plan proposes


trade deals and more investment to stem the flow


of migrants to the EU. Top of the list are Jordan


and Lebanon, hosting 1.8 million Syrian refugees,


as well as Niger, Nigeria, Senegal, Mali and Ethiopia,


countries migrants leave from or travel through


to get to Europe. The key coastal state of Libya


and Tunisia, where EU cash would bolster


border and sea controls. And, somewhat controversially,


cash for countries with poor humanitarian records,


like Eritrea and Sudan, So often on the back foot


during this migration crisis, EU leaders have been


trying desperately hard to regain the initiative -


now they think they have. We propose to use a mix of positive


and negative incentives, to reward those countries


willing to cooperate and to ensure that there are


consequences for those who do not. This includes using


our development and trade policies If this is the EU's big push


on controlling migration, then bear in mind that this


is not new money pledged, It relies on the ambition that


member states will also match EU funding, and on the hope


that private and public backers The proposals will require approval


by EU governments and the EU Parliament, but one Eurosceptic MEP


has already dismissed them. Saying that we should stabilise


the countries of origin I mean, what are we going to do


in the intervening 30 years? Definitely, the European Union


should be opening its markets Probably the most immoral trade


policy in the world at the moment is the EU's


Common Agricultural Policy. It means that not only


are producers, exporters in developing countries,


denied Europe's markets, it means they then have to very


often face unfair competition against subsidised


EU produce at home. there is a moral dilemma


for the EU leaders too. I think the European Union has found


it's quite difficult to deal with the problem with


the existing policies that it's got. So what it's doing, in effect,


is trying to retrofit its existing policies to cope with the political


problem that it hadn't anticipated. The problem is, how you move


from a situation in which you have a group of countries which don't


necessarily have the institutions, the rule of law and democracy,


which looks and feels So with its latest plan


to control migration, the EU finds itself under fire


over its protectionist trade policies and questioned


over how it will handle autocrats. There is no simple solution to what


could be a decades-long problem. When you look at the scale of some


of the problems facing the country is that we are talking about here,


about nine of them, Ethiopia, Mali, Niger, Senegal, is this not just a


drop in the ocean? I think it potentially is, in many respects,


some of us think it is a drop in the ocean. And the other hand, it is at


least an effort to try and do something, as was being said. But,


you know, it has to go hand-in-hand with a set of other policy areas


too, whether that is looking again at development aid and how


effectively it is working. Certainly, issues about trade policy


and what we are doing, what more can be done to help job creation in the


country so that young people there have some opportunities, so they


feel that their country is not broken. What is your take? Well, we


have tried it with Turkey, bribing them, offering them trade deals,


cash, 62 billion has been mentioned,... But that is not, with


Turkey, it is not really geared at Turkish nationals, it is the almost


3 million refugees who fled the war zone to go to Turkey - it is a big


problem, but a different problem. The approach is quite similar, and


the press release says that, it is quite similar to Turkey. My worry is


that, as Oxfam have complained, this could go to some very nasty


governments with very poor human rights records, and is there any


guarantee it will work? That is an issue in Eritrea, the Sudan, where


human rights are appalling, that is why people are fleeing in the first


place. It is in Eritrea where it is compulsory to join the army and so


on. There are heavy penalties. A horrible existence. But should we,


because in the end this is government to government aid, we are


not really just bolstering the existing regimes with this money?


I think there is a risk of that. It is important when we look at a that


more NGOs would work on the ground and you would circumvent the


government. Other places with stable governments, it would be direct


budget support within the government. That is what we do in


places like Bangladesh. Yes, there are still questions but it is a


different sort of thing. The important part of it is whatever you


are doing, you still keep the human rights agenda on the table. You do


not shut your eyes to that. I assume you agree with the point that one of


the reasons these countries, a lot of them agricultural, are not helped


by the protectionism that goes with the common agricultural policy? I


fully agree with Dan. It is disgraceful. Many of these countries


find it hard to compete. You are dumping cheap food. It is a two


process, you say? Yes. Do you agree with that? It is a criticism the


Green Party has made for a while. It is interesting to see who is getting


on board! There is no European assistance to help countries reach


the standards, the hygiene standards and the like, for food. There is


also a question in terms of the development. We are looking at what


you can do to add value in the country of origin. That has when the


tariffs increase though for the moment. The EU then put a higher


tariff. This is where the everything but arms trade procedures for the


poorest countries in the world has been extremely important in that. In


terms of offering support in how they develop not only their markets,


the EU, but internally. The idea of a blue card system for the EU is


roughly based on the green card system in Iraq. Good, bad,


indifferent? It has not been used much today. It has not been


successful. Is it worth a try? Worth a try. Worth the right sort of


direction. By the way, if we leave the European Union, we will be


outside the customs union, therefore we could cut tariffs on a lot of


these developing countries. We will see how that goes down with British


voters. If the UK votes to remain in the UK


on the 23rd of June, how Will they be keen to help us achieve


David Cameron's renegotiation, or will they perhaps be


a bit miffed? And if we leave, will they want


to send a message by putting the UK through the wringer,


or strike a new relationship with us European politicians and officials


try to avoid talking about it too much, but here's


what a few have said. German Finance Minister Wolfgang


Schauble reportedly told his UK counterpart, George Osborne,


that his country would be tough in what he described in an interview


as "years of the most And French economy minister,


Emmanuel Macron, has warned Britain would be "completely killed"


in trade talks if the country votes "We have to be very clear that


Brexit will have But Leave campaigners argue


that the UK would "continue to thrive" even outside


the EU's single market. And leaving the EU would also let


the UK take back control over its ability to trade more


freely with the rest of the world. Plus, they argue, the European


project is a steam roller and that we remain in, Britain will be


flattened. I suppose the difficult thing is, until it happens we don't


know. Of course European politicians at the moment want us to stay. They


say it will be tough if we leave. If they said, vote to leave and you can


have what you want... I am on the trade committee. We are doing trade


deals over the world. Canada is held up a bit. We are doing Australia and


New Zealand. India. The model of running your own country and getting


a great trade deal with the EU is proven in that sense. Except nobody


will ever have been in our position if we vote to leave, that is unique.


Greenland is about the closest. That is a stretch. Did -- it makes it


easier to do a trade deal in the sense that we are already compliant


now because we are members of the EU. We do not have the tariffs to


negotiate. We don't have that problem. What is your honest


assessment to it is most impossible to tell, I know. Supposedly voted to


leave that smacks of those we vote to leave, Article 50 is ignited.


What would the mood be like in the European capital is dealing with


this? I think it would be mixed. There would be a question of...


There are strong relationships that have been fought over years. There


are obviously trade implications for the European Union. However, given


what we know about the rise of the hard right in countries such as


France and the like, I think there would also be a very strong desire


to have a clear message that of other countries want to go down this


road, this is not going to be sunshine ever after and almost no


change. In case it encourages them. The other key issue will also be the


very vexed question of free movement. And that if we decide, and


we don't quite know who will be tickling -- doing the negotiation


from the UK, your party will sort that, but if that is going to be a


key issue, I think a lot of other things become very difficult. You


will then be very grateful for the work I have been doing on EU


migration policy. To find out what your rights are. We are only being


hypothetical, but if we are out of the EU, will be not be confronted by


an existential choice? You can have free movement within the EU and you


can have the single market. But you cannot pick and choose. This is a


fallacy we have heard from Remain. Only four out of 140 trade


agreements the EU has, as free movement. Two of those, Switzerland


and Lichtenstein, they are getting rid of freedom of movement.


Switzerland does not know what to do. The EU is now even refusing to


talk because they say, look, access to the single market? You have to


give the borders open. The thing that people do not realise,


including President Obama, is that we have a guaranteed rules -based


deal which is non-negotiable. We have already signed a treaty. It is


the same relationship the EU has with the US at the moment, Canada


and India. There is a fallback position. What you were talking


about is a better trade deal on top, which all of us want. The former


head of the German CBI says, of course there will be a trade deal.


They all say that, they don't want us to leave. Let's see what the


conditions are. We will have to find that out.


Now, Malta is the smallest and most densely populated EU member state.


It's got a population about the size of Bristol.


So what's been the effect of 12 years of EU membership on this


Here's Adam with the latest in our series, meet the neighbours.


It's like Game of Thrones meets the boat race. This is Malta's Freedom


Day bank holiday regatta when crews from the Valletta harbour face each


other in an audio of rowing, falling in and I think swearing. Hi, Andy.


Things are more genteel with Andy. Like a lot of the people on these


islands, he is part Maltese Cummer Park British and he loves the Royal


family. In fact, he has had that Prince William on the back of his


water taxi. I got and interests -- a letter from Buckingham Palace saying


how much he enjoyed the trip. It is one of my greatest treasures. There


are bits of bridges and over the place. Do we even have these any


more? Malta is one of three EU countries that are in the


Commonwealth along with the UK and Cyprus. This is a country with half


a million people. It is rare that we have the occasion to sit around the


same table with economic superpower is not coming from Europe. Without


such a platform it would be extremely difficult for smaller, or


even micro-states, to put forward their arguments, which are


essentially existential on whether they survive or not. Right now,


Malta chose the Commonwealth and next year will hold the rotating


presidency of the EU at the same time. Jackpot! You would be amazed


at the sort of interest that there is amongst European countries to get


to know what makes this organisation, -- called the


Commonwealth tick. It is very difficult to find one other


organisation worldwide which has such a diverse composition. Well, it


has its problems, so we are trying, during our time in the presidency of


the Commonwealth, to to put forward the issue of say, gay rights. The


regatta is over. It is clear that membership of the Commonwealth and


the European Union helps Malta to punch above its weight. It trades


much more with the EU, suggesting that is the more powerful pairing.


Add in Malta. I've never been to Malta. You have. It is a really


interesting place with masses of history. Really, really. For them,


being of the table is really important, just as being at the


table for us is going to be important. Their future they see


with the European Union. A small place like Malta can feel that it


stayed as a troll is enhanced because it is in the European Union.


You have been there as well. Yes, I have. It is a beautiful place. They


took a huge pounding during the war from the Nazis? Proportionally the


highest in Europe and the world. Very brave people. A lot of history.


I'm a great fan of Malta. I think there is a bit of a contest between


its British history and the EU, actually. There is not a sign it


wants to leave? No. It was a close-run vote at the time but that


has been resolved. Do think it is pretty settled within the EU? Yes,


it has settled within the European Union. It has a voice. It is the


seat of the European asylum support office now. Kind of the front line


of the Mediterranean. Very much so. Therefore it really feels that the


solution to problems around migration, climate, whatever, are


very much in the European Union. They will not follow Britain if we


did leave? No, we might follow them though, because they're very


crowded. We might be as crowded as Malta.


Fans of the Game of Thrones may have noticed that some of the scenes


there are shot in Malta. The non-rainy bits. The rainy bits are


in Northern Ireland. That's it for now. Thanks for joining us. Bye-bye.


discover there's more than the air beneath the wings


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