09/06/2016 Daily Politics


09/06/2016

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LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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Just two weeks to go until the EU referendum, and this morning brings

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some big endorsements for Leave and Remain.

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The Remain camp is cock-a-hoop that Conservative MP and GP

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Sarah Woolaston has swapped sides and no longer supports leaving,

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We'll be asking her to explain her sudden change of heart.

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But Leave thinks it's had its own earth-shaking moment

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this morning, as the boss of JCB becomes the first major employer

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He says the UK can stand on its own two feet.

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No love lost between Jeremy Corbyn and Tony Blair, as the former prime

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minister hits back at criticism over his part in the Iraq war

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and claims Mr Corbyn isn't interested in

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Cass the mystic moggy has been predicting the football results,

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and today she'll turn her paw to predicting how we'll vote

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A real scientific sample. It could be a watershed moment in this

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referendum. And from one mystic mog who can

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see into the future - well, apparently - to a man

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who makes his living peering back I speak of course of

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the historian, Andrew Roberts. He's a member of the Historians

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for Britain group, which is backing a vote to leave

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in the EU referendum. So first today, let's talk

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about a bit of a coup for the Remain camp overnight,

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that's the announcement by Conservative MP Sarah Woolaston

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that she's switching her support The reason it's significant

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is because she's known as an independent-minded

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backbencher, she's chair of the Health Select Committee

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and she's a GP - and she says her decision to switch sides centres

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on the 'out' campaign's use of a slogan claiming that leaving

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the EU could free up ?350 million She writes in this morning's Times

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'they have knowingly placed a financial lie at the heart

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of their campaign. It's an empty promise that

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would soon backfire'. She says the arrival of her postal

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vote crystallised the decision, and she now believes

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leaving would harm the NHS. Welcome to the programme. You

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previously said you could not back and David Cameron's threadbare deal.

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That is what you described what he brought back from Brussels. What

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changed? A lot of people like me were very disappointed and would

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have liked to have seen the EU go further, particularly at a time when

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there is a risk that Britain might leave. It is not just centring on

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the Vote Leave campaign, it is about all of the arguments. People have

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been asking, is the NHS going to be better or worse off? Is our public

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health going to be better or worse? And looking at all those arguments,

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it is clear to me that there will be a financial penalty on Brexit. There

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will not be a Brexit bonanza. Is the deal still threadbare or does it not

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matter? The deal still matters, but you have to look at this in its

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entirety. It is not just about the deal. And on both sides there is a

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lot of conspiracy theories doing the rounds. We have to deal with about

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one a day. Let me ask you, so that you can tell us, you were not

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planning to do this all along? No, that is clearly nonsense. It has

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been a growing feeling and the other thing that has crystallised it more,

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my father has been an NHS patient of late and he is 81 now. As a

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teenager, for him the idea of conflict in Europe is not an

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abstract possibility. He was asking me all the way to the operating door

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to change my vote because he feels profoundly that this will have

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ripple effects and is destabilising effect. And I think you have to

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listen to those kind of years. I do one of the other defectors? -- those

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kind of use. I think people have to say for themselves. I was not asking

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you to name them yet. But certainly, in private conversations people have

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told me they are having doubts. It is about research, public health,...

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Lots of things. And you have been tweeting about it. Let's look at

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what you have been tweeting. This one was about Greece. You spoke

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about your father in the war. Why do you support an institution, which,

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in your own words, created a lost generation of young people in Greece

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and Italy? Because of course there are problems with the EU. I do not

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go back from what I said about that. But a lost generation is more than

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just a problem. Young people, that is a systematic failure. It is. And

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the EU, but it must not do is interpret this as a full on

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endorsement of -- if Britain votes to stay. I hope that they will look

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carefully at some of the arguments that have been made throughout this

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campaign and think again about the way they operate. Well, we are doing

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our best on that. Here is another one. You criticised the Remain

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campaign for wasting ?9 billion of taxpayers money on what you describe

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as one-sided propaganda. Do you still think that about the ?9

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million? Yes. And I do not think the public have been well served about

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other side. I have been critical for weeks about this. The public deserve

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better. Indeed. In another Tweet you described the Remain campaign as

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ratcheting up the alarmist rhetoric, taking people for fools. Talking us

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down as little Britain. Why have you joined a campaign that takes us for

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fools, talks us down and has been responsible for alarmist rhetoric. I

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have not joined the official In campaign rather than I have joined

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the official Vote Leave campaign. But I have real concerns about the

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quality of information. I came into politics campaigning for better

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information in public life and we have not seen that from either side.

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But you could actually say that it is true of both sides. You have been

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particularly angered by the claim, on the side of the leave bus,, that

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they say we spend ?350 million a week on our membership. And that has

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been widely discredited, including by us. But the site you are

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supporting has its own problem with fake figures. They claimed that by

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2030 each household will be ?4300 worse off. That is what you're

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saying. Do you agree with that? No. The point is about how it is

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interpreted. It does not mean that each individual household will lose

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that amount of money. That is the trouble, it is the way that the

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figures are presented that can be misleading. But look at the battle

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bus, you have a picture of it behind you, the NHS logo. It is outrageous.

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I understand that. I am trying to work out how having left out of the

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frying pan, you have jumped into the fire. The Treasury Select Committee,

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on this figure, you know that this matters because you are a chair of a

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Treasury Select Committee. It is cheered by a Tory but it is pretty

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independent minded. It says of the ?4300 claim that households would

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all be that much worse off and that that is not what the main Treasury

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analysis found. The average impact on household income would be

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considerably smaller than that. And then it says that neither government

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departments nor the Remain campaign should risk repeating this

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assertion. To persist with this claim would be to misrepresent the

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Treasury's on works. So you have gone from one side that is

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representing a figure falsely to another side misrepresenting a

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figure. Can I just add that I am not joining the official Remain campaign

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any more than I was on the battle bus. But you have let from one

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figure on to another. You do not have to be endorsing the way the

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campaign has operated. I have been very clear for weeks that the public

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deserve better and both sides have been using data in a way that is not

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helpful. But why is the ?4300 figure any better in its own way than the

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350 million? So why have you switched? Because it is not about

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the campaigns. This is about... You said it was about the figure on the

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bus. My decision has been about weighing up the arguments. It is not

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about the figure the bus. But you said on this programme it was. You

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just said it. But the decision, and I'm very irritated by the figure on

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the bus but of course the decision about who you vote is not about a

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figure on a bus, it is about weighing up the argument. And for

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me, listening to the consensus, it is very clear that there would be a

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profound economic shock. Do I field will be a Brexit bonanza or a

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penalty? I think it will be a penalty. And you spoke about the

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NHS, of particular concern because you are a GP. And of course you

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chair a Select Committee. You sign the amendment to the Queen's Speech

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which regretted that a bill to protect the NHS from the

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transatlantic trade agreement was not included in it. And that is part

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of an EU deal with the United States which we will be part of if we stay

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in. Have you had assurances from the government that they will do

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something to protect the NHS from the transatlantic radial? As the

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chair of the health committee, I have been in correspondence with the

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last Parliament, with the EU around this issue. And they have given us

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written assurances that health would be exempted. But you still signed

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the amendment. What is clear to me is that people do not believe it.

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People wanted to be explicit, they do not trust an agreement with the

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EU. I felt that it was better for the government to just be explicit

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and say, let's include it. I think it will have been excluded anyway

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but people did not believe it so why not just make it exclusive? So you

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have had no assurance that the government will go that way? I hope

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that they will. They have said they will and I think they should honour

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that agreement. They should make it explicit because people do not

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believe it and having spent some time over the last Parliament

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showing them an assurance from the EU, the problem is that when people

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do not believe it, they have been using it to a political tool and it

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is best to make it explicit. Andrew Roberts, very important decision on

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June 23. At the heart of the campaign from Remain and Leave, two

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totemic figures which independent observers believe, both, to be

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deeply dodgy. Is that anyway to run a clearly not. But do not believe

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that buses saying we will spend ?350 million entirely on the NHS. But it

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says we would save it and that is not true either. Absolutely. But it

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is a gross figure. When I ask you how much you are paid, you give me

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the gross figure. But that is what you are asking, gross or net? The

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real amount is ?19.1 billion and when you divide it, it is a bit more

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than ?350 million. But then you take away the stuff that is not being

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taken back. It is not discretionary. But ?5 billion of that ?18 billion

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never goes in the first place. It is the abatement. People call it a

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rebate but it is -- it never goes to Brussels in the first place. We send

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?13 billion and we get ?4.5 billion back. And of course that figure

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should have been... You probably need a bigger bus to explain it.

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With regards to what Sarah was saying, I hope that you can tell

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your father, who was busily very brave in the war, after the war in

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the Royal Navy, but bomb disposal is a really brave job, underwater bomb

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disposal is incredibly brave. But you have to remind him that it has

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not been the EU that has kept us safe since 1945, since 1949 it has

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been Nato. We will still stay in Nato if we come out of Britain. If

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anything the EU has been bad for peace and security because you only

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have to look at what happened with 250 million people dying -- 250,000

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people dying in the Yugoslavian civil war to appreciate that. We

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will let you ponder what Mr Robert has says.

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And if you change your mind, come on! -- come back on. How have things

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been with your father? He's making a good recovery and he is delighted

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that I have changed my mind because he believes it absolutely profoundly

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and many of his generation do. Bassong what Roberts says. We thank

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you for coming on to explain your decision. -- pass on what Mr Roberts

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says. So if that was a significant moment

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for the Remain campaign, but there's been a significant

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moment for leave too this morning after the Chairman

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of the manufacturing firm JCB, Anthony Bamford, wrote to his staff

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in the UK explaining why he's in favour of a vote to leave

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the European Union. Lord Bamford - who is a major donor

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to the Conservative Party - says in the letter that he is "very

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confident that we can stand He believes that JCB and the UK can

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prosper just as much outside the EU. He said there is very little to fear

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if we do choose to leave. Let's talk now to our political

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correspondent, Theo Leggett. It is clearly significant. It is a

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leading businessman, operating a company that employs thousands of

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people, 6,500 here in the UK, it exports all around the world. He is

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saying unequivocally - actually, we are as well off outside the European

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Union as we are within it. Now, of course, he is also a donor to the

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Conservative Party. JCB has been applauded by David Cameron himself

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as a totem of British engineering around the world. So it is

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significant he has intervened. Don't forget n recent weeks we have had

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letters written by other companies, such as Airbus and BMW and Siemens,

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all telling their staff that we are better off inside the European

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Union. So, in a sense, you could say this letter redresses some of that

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balance and allows the Vote Leave to regain the ground many people feel

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it has lost in the economic argument. Right, this is the first

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letter written by a leading businessmened a vericateding Brexit

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to his employees. Was it a big secret he was in favour of leaving

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the EU? It was no secret he was eurosceptic and he felt the sky

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would not fall in if we were to leave the European Union. He has

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been saying that for the past year but he has been operating outside of

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the major Leave campaign. He hasn't signed up to the letters written by

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other businessmen saying that leaving the EU is the way we should

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go. He has bided his time and written what reads as a personal

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letter to his own employees. He doesn't crucially tell them how they

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should vote. He merely says - these are my personal views. This is what

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I think, what I would encourage you to think, but you are voting

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according to your own belief. He stresses this vote is most

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important, more important than a general election and the most

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crucial thing is not how they vote but that they do go out and vote.

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Thank you very much. The timing is crucial in the final few weeks.

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It certainly s we'll probably expect more than of as we go on.

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Now John Major is a busy man these days - fresh from mauling

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Boris Johnson in a TV interview at the weekend, this morning he's

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been in Northern Ireland speaking alongside another former PM,

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Both of course were heavily involved in securing

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the peace process there, and they've warned that

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the still-fragile political settlement could be destabilised

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Here they are speaking a short while ago.

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So, I believe it would be an historic mistake to do

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risk of destabilising the complicated and multi-layered

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constitutional settlement that underpins the present stability

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And when we negotiated the Good Friday Agreement,

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it wasn't easier at a whole range of different levels, but one

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vital part of that, which people often overlooked,

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was that it also symbolised the new relationship

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between the Republic of Ireland and the UK, within

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So former Prime Ministers for the price of one there.

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We're joined now by the DUP's deputy leader Nigel Dodds,

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he's backing a vote to leave, and by the Shadow Northern Ireland

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Welcome to you both. Mr Dodds, let me come to you first. Tony Blair

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says - Northern Ireland's stability, it rests on carefully-constructed

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foundations, includes that we are members of the EU and that the

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Republic is a member of the EU as well. Why would you want it shake

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the foundations? Well, can I say, of all the claims that have been made

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about threats to the UK and the constituent parts of the UK if we

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were to leave the EU, I find this claim that Northern Ireland's

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political instability is going to be undermined, one of the most

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depressing and disappointing. Why is that? Well, because I think John

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Major and Tony Blair have made an enormous contribution to the

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Northern Ireland peace process over the years. I mean they carried a

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very heavy burden and, you know it wasn't everything I agreed with that

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they did but they did an enormous amount in moving the Northern

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Ireland political situation forward. I think for them to come and to use

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their authority to try to promote an argument - and there are many

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argument that could be made, but this argument that they are

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promoting about the threats to the political and peace process is one

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that is simply scaremongering and very irresponsible. Well, let's get

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- do you believe that the peace process - I was going to say unravel

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- that may be taking it too far, but would the be in more danger if we

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were to leave the EU? I think the first thing to say - I don't think

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it would unravel. And I think that would be going far too far. I don't

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think that. And I would also say I don't believe we are going to go

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back to the bad old days of the past. But I do think... In or out.

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Absolutely. So what is the case, then? I do think that much of the

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initial Good Friday Agreement and the subsequent agreements, rest on

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the assumption that both Ireland and Britain are within the EU, the

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North-South bodies, the East-West bodies, they all rest on that. I

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think it does race the issue of what will be the cons sequences, not just

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for Northern Ireland but the UK as a whole from -- consequences, from the

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UK leaving the. U. Give me a confidence and we'll put it to Mr

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Dodds. -- give me a consequence. What happens with Scotland. Let us

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not go there. But the border, what happens with the border when it

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becomes a bored between the UK and EU. What are the consequences? Mr

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Dodds, it is an open border at the moment. Would it remain or not? It

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would. The common travel area, the arrangement whereby people can move

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freely between the Irish Republic and UK has been in place since 1923.

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We have had almost 100 years. We have preicated the European Union,

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it'll outlast the European Union if we leave. It is very, very clear,

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even the Irish Ambassador to London said last year t would remain in

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place. So, look, I don't understand why people - they can make all sorts

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of argument on the economic front and all the rest of it, why there is

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this attempt to scaremonger and unsettle people and destabilise the

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situation in Northern Ireland unnecessarily. Vernon talked there

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about the institutions of the Good Friday Agreement, the St Andrew's

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agreement and so on. We have people in the East-West institutions like

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Isle of Man and Channel Islands for whom there is free movement but they

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are not members of the EU. This happens already in the context of

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East-West institutions set up under the Belfast Agreement. I think the

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two former Prime Ministers that are in Northern Ireland today, with the

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greatest respect to them, and having paid tribute to the work they have

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done, should not be going around, engaged in this kind of

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scaremongering. It really devalues their reputation, does no good at

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all and I think we should be concentrating on the really big

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issues which is - how much better it is economically, in terms of getting

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control over our borders, control over our laws, control over our

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money, for the UK as a whole to be outside the European Union. What do

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you say then that the border wouldn't change? It has been around,

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the open border since the early 1920s. Of course there was then a

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big chunk when things grew, we were both inside the EU, as things

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changed. So what with a the risk of the border be? I think the first

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point to make, is first of all when Ireland and Britain were outside

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evident EU, they were both outside and joined at the same time. So they

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have been been in the EU. The common travel arrangement has worked when

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it has been synonymous, the arrangements between Ireland and

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Britain but the danger - Nigel moved on tow trade. What would the

0:23:180:23:20

consequences of being outside of the EU for goods that move backwards and

0:23:210:23:26

forwards. It is not just me saying that or John Major and Tony Blair.

0:23:270:23:29

We have had the Treasury, the Chancellor saying that. We have had

0:23:300:23:33

the Northern Ireland Office itself pointing there could be consequences

0:23:340:23:37

and recently the Home Office writing to the newry Chamber of #1k57

0:23:380:23:48

commerce saying there may beism there chamber of Commerce, saying

0:23:490:23:51

there maybe implications for the trading. Well, if we are outside the

0:23:520:23:56

you single market, which is a possibility that someone on your

0:23:570:24:04

side said, we may not get in with, and Ireland stays inside T there

0:24:050:24:08

could be tariffs, big or small, tariff barriers. You would have to

0:24:090:24:14

have something on the word border. If the event you outlined, and there

0:24:150:24:20

are arguments about about that, but if you were inside that scenario the

0:24:210:24:27

idea of physical barriers along the border is nonsense given electronic

0:24:280:24:31

and digital arrangements. We don't have that arrangement in Sweden and

0:24:320:24:34

Norway, and other countries where there is a border. But for most

0:24:350:24:39

things that are traded Norway is in the single market and Norway has

0:24:400:24:42

free movement of people I'm simply making the point that you do not

0:24:430:24:47

need a hard border in order to have that kind of arrangement. The other

0:24:480:24:50

thing I would say in terms of Northern Ireland and Vernon will

0:24:510:24:53

remember the argument well, when we were urged to join the single

0:24:540:24:58

currency, we were told that for decades the Irish Republic and

0:24:590:25:03

Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK were in parity with the Irish

0:25:040:25:07

pound linked inextricably with the British pound. All dire prediction

0:25:080:25:15

it is would disrupt trade. The Newry Chamber of Commerce saying it would

0:25:160:25:18

wipe us out. Imagine having to change the currency at the Northern

0:25:190:25:21

Ireland border. None of this happened. Well let's hear Mr Coaker.

0:25:220:25:28

The UK Government took the decision it woovent be in the interests of

0:25:290:25:31

Northern Ireland or any other part of the UK to join the euro. And that

0:25:320:25:39

was proved to be... Deand people -- and people are saying if we leave

0:25:400:25:42

there will be dire consequences. You make assumptions You can go on

0:25:430:25:46

records of last time. You take a balanced view on the evidence that

0:25:470:25:49

comes before you. As I say, it is not only myself. It's been the

0:25:500:25:54

Chancellor, the Home Office, as well as the Northern Ireland lpts It is

0:25:550:25:57

Tony Blair who is in Northern Ireland today, and your former

0:25:580:26:00

leader, the same man telling us about joining the single currency.

0:26:010:26:03

He was held back by Gordon Brown, thankfully at the end of the day. He

0:26:040:26:07

wanted to join the European currency. He is now telling people

0:26:080:26:10

in Northern Ireland to stay in the EU in terms of safety and all the

0:26:110:26:14

rest of it. I don't think we'll take any lessons... Well I think they

0:26:150:26:17

will from Tony Blair. They may take lessons from Andrew Roberts. As an

0:26:180:26:22

his store yob, you follow and know a historian, you follow and know a

0:26:230:26:25

will the about Irish history. What is your view? My view is that the

0:26:260:26:28

southern Irish have such enormous trade connections with Northern

0:26:290:26:31

Ireland, that they would not want to cause any trouble at all, whatever

0:26:320:26:36

Brussels wanted. I'm thrilled as an outer that Tony Blair is for the in

0:26:370:26:39

campaign, he is the most unpopular politician. Not in Northern Ireland.

0:26:400:26:44

And also, John Major, whenever he talks about Europe, he reminds us of

0:26:450:26:52

the 4 billion he we lost in the ERM debacle and Maastricht. So keep

0:26:530:26:57

going guys. A crystal ball. I'm told there is a clear half majority - old

0:26:580:27:02

fashioned terms - a clear majority in the protestant community for

0:27:030:27:06

leave but an overwhelming majority in the Catholic community for stay S

0:27:070:27:10

that broadly right? I prefer to talk about unionists... You know what I

0:27:110:27:15

mean. There are many unionists within the Catholics. I think most

0:27:160:27:22

unionists will broadly speaking be for Leave and overwhelming in the

0:27:230:27:26

nationalists, for stay, because Dublin is saying we should stay. But

0:27:270:27:29

we are gaining all the time. We shall see. Thank you both.

0:27:300:27:36

Mary McAleese, the President was talking about it the other evening.

0:27:370:27:39

Well, we've been talking about Tony Blair the statesman

0:27:400:27:41

there, and in general in interviews these days the former Labour leader

0:27:420:27:44

tries to steer clear of talking too much about domestic politics.

0:27:450:27:47

In a TV interview yesterday he launched his fiercest attack yet

0:27:480:27:50

on current Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn.

0:27:510:27:52

You know, I'm accused of being a war criminal

0:27:530:27:58

for removing Saddam Hussein, who, by the way, was a war criminal,

0:27:590:28:01

and yet, you know, Jeremy is seen as a progressive icon as we stand

0:28:020:28:05

by and watch the people of Syria barrel bombed,

0:28:060:28:11

beaten and starved into submission and do nothing.

0:28:120:28:13

The issue for me, is - what is the best way that you take

0:28:140:28:18

the traditional values of the left and apply them to the modern world?

0:28:190:28:21

Joining us to discuss this is the Labour MP Richard Burgon,

0:28:220:28:30

who nominated Jeremy Corbyn for the leadership.

0:28:310:28:34

Welcome back to the Daily Politics. Tony Blair has accused Jeremy Corbyn

0:28:350:28:42

of being the guy with a placard, representing the politics of

0:28:430:28:44

protest, unlike him, who he says represents the politics of power.

0:28:450:28:49

What do you say? I think it's nonsensical to say that Jeremy

0:28:500:28:55

Corbyn's leadership is the leadership of political protest. If

0:28:560:28:58

you look at what the Labour opposition has achieved under Jeremy

0:28:590:29:02

Corbyn's leadership. We have forced through active meaningful opposition

0:29:030:29:06

U-Turn on a whole host of things, for example, u turns on tax credit

0:29:070:29:09

cuts which would have cost 3 million families across the UK ?1,000 a

0:29:100:29:13

year. Was that not with the help of Tory rebels? It was a U-Turn, also,

0:29:140:29:21

on Sunday trading, a U-Turn on a tax, the money received on people

0:29:220:29:26

living with disabilities and a U-Turn on more Draconian elements of

0:29:270:29:31

the trade union bi. That's real politics, not protest politics. What

0:29:320:29:35

are the tough Dell significance that is Jeremy Corbyn has taken as

0:29:360:29:39

leader, which weren't generally in line with what he has protested

0:29:400:29:43

about in the past? Well one example was to give a free vote to Labour

0:29:440:29:47

MPs on the question of whether or not to support David Cameron's

0:29:480:29:50

bombing of Syria. Was that a tough decision on leadership or did that

0:29:510:29:56

exactly explicitly underline what Tony Blair has said, and shown no

0:29:570:30:00

leadership It was the right thing to do and Jeremy Corbyn by persuasion,

0:30:010:30:04

not by forcing people, persuaded the vast majority of Labour MPs to agree

0:30:050:30:08

with him that bombing Syria wasn't in the interests of the Syrian

0:30:090:30:12

people. But who made the round-up speech on behalf of the Labour Party

0:30:130:30:17

and the Opposition, Hilary Benn who contradicted his position st. And 66

0:30:180:30:22

Labour MPs were persuaded by the case it back Cameron's plan to bomb

0:30:230:30:25

Syria the plan that Tony Blair backed and four times that number of

0:30:260:30:29

Labour MPs were persuaded by Jeremy Corbyn's leadership on that issue.

0:30:300:30:34

And on Trident? On Trident Jeremy Corbyn has always been clear and

0:30:350:30:37

consistent on that. I think we do need to take... What leadership has

0:30:380:30:42

he shown. I think we need to take on Tony Blair's comments, the reason

0:30:430:30:46

being one of the great lessons of New Labour, one of the great truths

0:30:470:30:49

that Tony Blair and others spoke about, was the need to always remain

0:30:500:30:53

with the modern world and update and adapt to current situations and just

0:30:540:30:58

as what worked in 1974, wouldn't work in 1997, what worked in 1997,

0:30:590:31:02

doesn't work in 2016 whatsoever. So you think he is out of touch and he

0:31:030:31:06

is in a that's how past and gone? I think Tony Blair was shown to be

0:31:070:31:20

out of touch in his calls to back the invasion of Syria. I think what

0:31:210:31:23

has happened to him is a real shame. He was clearly one of the most able

0:31:240:31:30

political communicators in his or any generation. The sad truth is

0:31:310:31:34

that through the disastrous, immoral war in Iraq and through his chasing

0:31:350:31:38

of money around the globe since he retired as Prime Minister, he has

0:31:390:31:41

lost the trust and respect of lots of British people who had trust and

0:31:420:31:46

respect for him previously. But he did win an election after the Iraq

0:31:470:31:51

war. Labour won three elections with him. And if we ask the people out

0:31:520:31:59

there what they think, many people see him as symbolic of the loss of

0:32:000:32:04

trust in the political class. And on that basis, you agree that the war

0:32:050:32:08

in Iraq was illegal? I believe it was immoral and illegal and we will

0:32:090:32:12

see what the Chilcot enquiry concludes. And the logic of that,

0:32:130:32:16

you feel that Tony Blair should face some charges? I believe that the war

0:32:170:32:22

in Iraq was immoral and illegal. I will wait to see what happens in two

0:32:230:32:27

weeks. And if the Chilcot enquiry says that it was an illegal war, and

0:32:280:32:32

is therefore illegal action is required, then it will be required.

0:32:330:32:37

So you support the idea that he should face charges? I wait to see

0:32:380:32:41

what the enquiry says but in my belief, it is an immoral and illegal

0:32:420:32:47

war. If you take that logic, then surely he would face charges? Of

0:32:480:32:51

course he would. The idea of putting a former panellist Minster on war

0:32:520:32:54

crime charges is a warrant, not least because of the House of

0:32:550:32:58

Commons, they voted for that war which means that it was not illegal.

0:32:590:33:03

If the house of commons and the House of Lords supports something,

0:33:040:33:07

it is legal. And the question of immorality, they were over showing a

0:33:080:33:11

-- overthrowing a fascist dictator, which is never immoral. To take

0:33:120:33:22

Andrew Roberts point, David Cameron and most of the Cabinet supported

0:33:230:33:27

the war of Iraq -- in Iraq. That was a different cabinet and a different

0:33:280:33:30

leadership. Andrew at the time was on record as saying that he looked

0:33:310:33:34

forward to be weapons of mass destruction being found. As we know,

0:33:350:33:41

they were found. Of course, because like the KGB, and the Chinese and

0:33:420:33:44

the CIA and MI5, everybody thought he had them and we only discovered

0:33:450:33:49

after works that he did not. What about sharing platforms with other

0:33:500:33:53

politicians? Tony Blair sharing a platform with the former

0:33:540:33:57

Conservative by Minister, and Ed Balls sharing a platform with George

0:33:580:34:03

Osborne. Shouldn't Jeremy Corbyn share a platform with Tony Blair in

0:34:040:34:07

terms of asking people to remain in the EU? I think Jeremy Corbyn is who

0:34:080:34:12

he should share a platform with. But one is the former leader and one is

0:34:130:34:16

the current leader, and they are both for Remain. Labour is united,

0:34:170:34:23

unlike the Conservatives. Tony Blair was the prime Minister, and did so

0:34:240:34:29

many good things on Northern Ireland and public services and other

0:34:300:34:32

things. But I think the Jeremy Corbyn has been successful in

0:34:330:34:36

putting forward a Labour vision for the European Union, distinct from

0:34:370:34:43

the Conservative union. But why are they not sharing a platform? I do

0:34:440:34:47

not manage his diary. But do you think that he should? I think that

0:34:480:34:52

people are more disposed to believing that Jeremy Corbyn, in

0:34:530:34:57

relation to his arguments on the European Union and foreign policy,

0:34:580:35:01

and in relation to his trustworthiness, than they at the

0:35:020:35:05

former Labour leader, Tony Blair. I loved how you kept a straight face

0:35:060:35:08

asking that question. I always keep a straight face. BBC

0:35:090:35:13

impartiality at its finest. And you were trying to poke me with

0:35:140:35:15

your pen. I often do but not this time. The

0:35:160:35:20

Chilcot report is a little more than two weeks away, it will be July the

0:35:210:35:25

6th, a Wednesday, so we will be near with our usual 90 minutes including

0:35:260:35:26

PMQs. If Margaret Thatcher

0:35:270:35:27

was still with us how would she have And I'm not talking about Fred

0:35:280:35:38

Wellington who lives at the bottom of my road.

0:35:390:35:41

Can anyone really claim to be able to see into the minds of big

0:35:420:35:44

historical figures - or is it just a bit

0:35:450:35:47

History repeats itself is the old adage but in politics, is it wistful

0:35:480:36:00

thinking? Having exhausted the four horsemen of the Apocalypse, both

0:36:010:36:03

sides in the referendum are searching further afield for

0:36:040:36:06

historic backers to their cause. It helps if you choose someone iconic.

0:36:070:36:10

And if they have said the sort of things that help. Mrs Thatcher, who

0:36:110:36:15

can forget the common market jumper. Eventually she gave good copy to

0:36:160:36:21

Brexit is. We want a commission of executives and we want the Council

0:36:220:36:26

of ministers to be the Senate. No, no, no. In the world of Leave, some

0:36:270:36:32

draw inspiration from Winston Churchill, who saved Britain from a

0:36:330:36:36

Europe united only under occupation. Whilst forgetting that he coined a

0:36:370:36:40

phrase. If we are to form a United States of Europe, or whatever name

0:36:410:36:49

it may take, we must begin now. War has always been a driver of European

0:36:500:36:54

politics. Take the Duke of Wellington, who saved Britain from

0:36:550:36:59

the podium's European dream of everyone being French. He has an

0:37:000:37:03

image as the sort of chap who would give the EU both barrels but was he?

0:37:040:37:07

He would be a remain campaigner. He still believed in peace in Europe

0:37:080:37:17

and is in political stability in Europe, and is believed

0:37:180:37:21

incorporation in Europe. After all, he was one of the British

0:37:220:37:25

representatives at the Congress of Vienna in 1815, and in 1818, and

0:37:260:37:33

that the Congress of aroma in 1821. All of those congresses, in a sense,

0:37:340:37:39

they were forerunners of European Council meetings or whatever we now

0:37:400:37:44

call them. And of course, we hear talk at the moment about the

0:37:450:37:48

creation of a European army, but then the soldiers he is in the field

0:37:490:37:52

with are hardly all it British. No, it was certainly a European army.

0:37:530:38:00

Which he commanded at Waterloo, and which defeated Napoleon. Not

0:38:010:38:04

everyone will agree but his ancestors might know best. There in

0:38:050:38:09

probably lies the problem of grabbing historical glamour for any

0:38:100:38:13

cause. People will ignore the facts and pick the picture that most suits

0:38:140:38:19

them and their argument. That was Giles in his front room.

0:38:200:38:21

Now to talk about what history might teach us about the big decision

0:38:220:38:24

facing the country today we're joined by Simon Schama,

0:38:250:38:26

one of 300 historians who wrote a public letter backing Remain.

0:38:270:38:29

And Andrew Roberts is one of a separate group

0:38:300:38:31

What is the lesson of history, Simon Schama, but we should vote to

0:38:320:38:41

Remain? Being British does not mean that you are not European. In my

0:38:420:38:47

hand I have the names of the 25 who imposed the Magna Carta, that

0:38:480:38:50

talismanic phrase, and they are all French. But they took us over and

0:38:510:38:57

tried to suppress us. But they spoke French and they were part of Norman

0:38:580:39:01

culture. But they did not come here as immigrants, became as conquerors.

0:39:020:39:06

These are people who have had land. You are trying to argue with me, but

0:39:070:39:14

if you stop a minute, will agree. Look, there are all sorts of

0:39:150:39:17

moments. It would be absurd not to say that there was not his

0:39:180:39:20

distinctive political tradition in British history. British history is

0:39:210:39:25

about to head for a massive train wreck, gratuitous self destruction.

0:39:260:39:29

Scotland will not be British history any more, it will be Anglo Welsh

0:39:300:39:35

history. One of the other talismanic moments was the bill of rights,

0:39:360:39:41

December of 1689, the foundation of the constitutional monarchy and much

0:39:420:39:44

else, the freedom of the press. The bill is not -- the Bill of Rights

0:39:450:39:48

was enabled by us joining the coalition against Louis 14th. Not

0:39:490:39:55

just because it was a matter of Raison did tat. But because there

0:39:560:40:04

was a community of ideals. All I'm saying is that exactly the things

0:40:050:40:10

that we are instinctively proud of in the history of Britain has been a

0:40:110:40:15

marriage of European instincts and our own. We have always been

0:40:160:40:19

intertwined with Europe. Absolutely, but at the same time we have had

0:40:200:40:22

separate historical development because of the 22 miles of salt

0:40:230:40:26

water between us and the continent. And when we talk about the Bill of

0:40:270:40:31

Rights, absolutely, but it was the British oligarchs who brought in the

0:40:320:40:37

Dutch king. It was not an invasion from outside. It was an invasion.

0:40:380:40:41

There were 20,000 troops occupying London for a year and a half. It was

0:40:420:40:45

absolutely an invasion. Because they were invited in by the oligarchs.

0:40:460:40:51

They did not want home-grown British tyrants to impose themselves on the

0:40:520:40:55

British people. And as a result, you get religious toleration, the rule

0:40:560:40:58

of law, equality before the war, these things which happen in Britain

0:40:590:41:05

150 years before Louis XIV has his head chopped off. We have,

0:41:060:41:11

therefore, a sense of where we do not have revolutions and massacres

0:41:120:41:14

and civil wars over the last couple of hundred years here in the way

0:41:150:41:18

that they did across Europe. And that has allowed us to have an

0:41:190:41:24

evolutionary development of our historical sense rather than a

0:41:250:41:26

revolutionary one. But what Andrew is hinting at, and not saying, is

0:41:270:41:30

that there is a sense that geographically we are part of the

0:41:310:41:35

European continent, but if you look over British history, do you not

0:41:360:41:38

accepted that there has been an element of British exceptionalism?

0:41:390:41:43

No, I think it is a matter of the liberal tradition which is embodied

0:41:440:41:50

and rooted over there. What I was trying to say was that there was a

0:41:510:41:55

common identity between the public that shared a tradition of relative

0:41:560:42:01

freedom of speech, and that actually established itself across a language

0:42:020:42:05

barrier and crossed ostensible national barriers, too. And I think

0:42:060:42:09

that has on. I suppose one of the reasons that I am so passionate a

0:42:100:42:18

Remainer, is I just think of British heroes, as British as British can

0:42:190:42:22

be, like David Maxwell Fyfe, who was a judge of the Nuremberg trial, and

0:42:230:42:32

felt it part of being British, to bring part of civil decency to what

0:42:330:42:37

became a big European Bill of human rights. But as Lord Kilmuir, David

0:42:380:42:44

Maxwell Fyfe opposed Britain joining the European Community in the 50s.

0:42:450:42:47

He told Edward Heath that it was going to be leading to a diminishing

0:42:480:42:54

of sovereignty. The same man. Does that needs to be a conflict between

0:42:550:42:59

wanting to play a full part in the European Union, and retaining a full

0:43:000:43:11

British identity? Of course not. The French will retain their identity.

0:43:120:43:15

It is not about losing identity. So what do we gain thereby leaving?

0:43:160:43:22

What it allows us to do is obtain the ability to do good in Europe,

0:43:230:43:29

which we have done. In your letter, you talk about the positive aspects

0:43:300:43:32

of Britain in Europe. But the reason we have been able to be so positive

0:43:330:43:35

is because we have had the sovereign power to do so. But this is not

0:43:360:43:45

being threatened. Among the things that got laughed at by the out

0:43:460:43:49

campaign, among the concessions that were exacted from Donald Tusk by

0:43:500:43:56

David Cameron, was British exemptions from directives and

0:43:570:43:58

statements about an ever closer union. And these are pure words. You

0:43:590:44:05

can tell the difference between the verbiage of this. But we retain our

0:44:060:44:12

veto to veto the admission of any new country, just like the rest of

0:44:130:44:16

the community. So we have strong pillars against the integration of a

0:44:170:44:20

superstate. Historically, what we have seen in the European Community

0:44:210:44:24

again and again, for over half a century, is the wearing away of

0:44:250:44:30

these rights, and we see that with our ability to stop a European army.

0:44:310:44:36

You can say that we will be able to stop these things in another

0:44:370:44:41

half-century. We know that we will not prevent the centrifugal

0:44:420:44:43

disintegration of the European Union and its reform if we leave. If

0:44:440:44:48

Europe is such a good thing, why do we not get stuck in more, and play a

0:44:490:44:55

bigger role? To do that, we would have to be part of the euro and the

0:44:560:44:59

Schengen Agreement. You cannot be semidetached and be at the heart of

0:45:000:45:04

the euro. Absolutely. We can have what we need if we manage to stay

0:45:050:45:09

in. It is a grand European convention, about reforming

0:45:100:45:12

political institutions in Europe. But you know with all the action in

0:45:130:45:16

Europe now, it will all take place within the Eurozone. We will not be

0:45:170:45:22

part of that. The further fiscal, monetary, political integration,

0:45:230:45:25

that will be inside the Eurozone and we will be largely spectators. We're

0:45:260:45:29

not talking about fiscal and monetary integration. We are talking

0:45:300:45:33

about, for example, I think it would be very good of the Council of

0:45:340:45:37

ministers had a share of the proposal of litigation rather than

0:45:380:45:42

it being shared by the individual states. The condition is being part

0:45:430:45:43

of Europe in the first place. Is When we came into Europe, Ted

0:45:440:45:52

Heath said it needed the full-hearted consensus of the

0:45:530:45:55

British people. The reason we are not getting into Europe, is we do

0:45:560:46:02

not have that. It is going that there isn't full-hearted consent

0:46:030:46:05

Full-hearted consent of our children and grandchildren. Age group between

0:46:060:46:11

18-24. We oldies are imposing something on our children. Do you

0:46:120:46:14

think certain age groups should be allowed to vote (I would love to be

0:46:150:46:18

disfranchised. Maybe they will have changed their minds by the time they

0:46:190:46:24

get to your age. They don't. You are a historian, not a sear. That's

0:46:250:46:32

enough of today's episode of The His interest I Boys. By public demand,

0:46:330:46:38

they will return I am I'm not saying when but they will, when we have the

0:46:390:46:42

full-hearted support of our viewers. -- the history Boys.

0:46:430:46:46

As the referendum draws closer, we have been showcasing

0:46:470:46:48

the arguments for Leave and Remain made by members of different

0:46:490:46:51

political parties who've been using our trusty soapbox.

0:46:520:46:53

Today it's the turn of the Liberal Democrats.

0:46:540:46:55

In a moment we'll hear from the party's leader

0:46:560:46:57

Tim Farron on why he thinks we should Remain in the EU.

0:46:580:47:00

But first, here's the former Lib Dem MP Paul Keetch.

0:47:010:47:02

Believe it or not, he's one of a very small number

0:47:030:47:05

of Liberal Democrats who thinks we should Leave the EU.

0:47:060:47:14

I believe that nations achieve more working together.

0:47:150:47:19

Because I am a liberal, democrat and internationalist

0:47:200:47:25

Lib Dems believe the power should be held close to the individuals

0:47:260:47:29

Free trade has been the Liberal solution for peace and prosperity

0:47:300:47:41

for centuries but that principle now ends

0:47:420:47:43

We are seeing refugees fleeing the Middle East

0:47:440:47:47

and North Africa and the EU has re-erected border controls.

0:47:480:47:50

Free movement has become a closed door to the rest of the world.

0:47:510:47:57

Moving to the UK should be about the skills and values,

0:47:580:47:59

I'm delighted to have been joined by Liberal Democrat supporters

0:48:000:48:06

all over the country who are going to vote leave.

0:48:070:48:08

Not in spite of being Liberal Democrats,

0:48:090:48:10

but because we are Liberal Democrats.

0:48:110:48:24

Now as we said he is very much in a minority in a party that's

0:48:250:48:34

overwhelmingly for Remain. Now here's the party

0:48:350:48:38

leader Tim Farron, with the Liberal Democrat case

0:48:390:48:40

for remaining the EU. Well this referendum is about

0:48:410:48:48

the character of our country. Do you see Britain as a country that

0:48:490:48:51

stands apart from others, glowering across the White Cliffs

0:48:520:48:54

of Dover in bad-tempered isolation? Or do you see Britain

0:48:550:48:59

as an outward-looking country that works with its neighbours to build

0:49:000:49:02

a more prosperous and secure world? Our economy will be stronger

0:49:030:49:06

if we take a lead in Europe. Building an economy fit

0:49:070:49:09

for the future, not casting Our environment is better-protected

0:49:100:49:16

for future generations by working with Europe

0:49:170:49:19

to tackle climate change. Our security is boosted by working

0:49:200:49:22

with countries who are our friends, share our values and also

0:49:230:49:25

face similar threats. I want my children to grow up

0:49:260:49:26

in a confident Britain, pursuing prosperity and peace

0:49:270:49:33

in cooperation with our neighbours. Not a sullen country,

0:49:340:49:36

cut off from the continent. We share democratic

0:49:370:49:40

and liberal values. And to discuss this further,

0:49:410:49:45

we're joined by Paul Keetch and by the President

0:49:460:50:04

of the Liberal Democrats, Who do you represent, Paul Keetch?

0:50:050:50:15

Just you? No there are about 600 members of Liberal Leave throughout

0:50:160:50:18

the country, probably bigger than any Liberal Democrat constituency.

0:50:190:50:22

I've been astonished by the age range, the number of councillors who

0:50:230:50:26

have come across to us and students from Oxford University. We are an

0:50:270:50:28

interesting group of people. Interesting is a word - an

0:50:290:50:32

interesting word you should use. But you are not exactly representative

0:50:330:50:34

of the Liberal Democrat party. Because at the core of its beliefs

0:50:350:50:38

is the EU being part of it and playing a very major role in it? No,

0:50:390:50:43

what the core of Liberalism is about, is about being

0:50:440:50:45

internationalist. What worries me about what the EU has become is a

0:50:460:50:54

for tress Europe. -- Fortress.s it is note Liberal or democratic. It is

0:50:550:50:57

time we accepted that and did something about it. What do you say

0:50:580:51:01

An extraordinary skewed view of Europe. It is by no means perfect.

0:51:020:51:04

And the Liberal Democrats are amongst the people who say reform

0:51:050:51:07

should come. We have fought for reform in the past and we'll

0:51:080:51:11

continue to do that but we are much, much stronger N the benefit,

0:51:120:51:15

particularly of the single market espouses all the free trade things

0:51:160:51:19

that Liberals talked about in the 19th century and doesn't prevent

0:51:200:51:22

trade with the rest of the world, as we know. You said For the rows

0:51:230:51:27

Europe. Can he not trade with anybody outside of the EU? The EU

0:51:280:51:31

hasn't got a trade agreement with India. Can we not trade with other

0:51:320:51:35

parts of the world outside the EU. We have not trade with India, unless

0:51:360:51:40

the EU let us do that. My point is that we have a society based on what

0:51:410:51:49

was a free trade area, has turned into a monster in Brussels that

0:51:500:51:52

constrains Britain from trading with the world. When did you want to

0:51:530:51:59

leave, or have you always been anti-Europe? I have always been a

0:52:000:52:03

eurosceptic. And still a Liberal Democrat It is not any more I leave

0:52:040:52:08

a Liberal thing. Liberals believe in devolving power down from the centre

0:52:090:52:13

to the communities, to devolved assemblies to mayors and

0:52:140:52:17

commissioners. The EU is sucking power into the centre of Brussels

0:52:180:52:21

Doesn't he have a point, devolving power down to local people. Let them

0:52:220:52:25

decide. What happens in the EU with the Committee of the regions which

0:52:260:52:29

nobody has talked about so far in the campaign is our elected

0:52:300:52:32

representatives in an area come together to work with Brussels on

0:52:330:52:35

the projects we ought to be doing locally. So actually there is more

0:52:360:52:40

subsidiarity, their ghastly word for t but involvement at a local level

0:52:410:52:44

than people are aware of. It is certainly by elected

0:52:450:52:46

representatives. You might argue it is one step away but it is not this

0:52:470:52:51

completely remote organisation that has no involvement with people in

0:52:520:52:54

their communities. Its certainly true, they do. Let me take the word

0:52:550:53:00

Let me take the word, democracy, Liberal Democrats. When I was the MP

0:53:010:53:05

for Hereford. Most people knew I was the MP for Hereford. Ask your

0:53:060:53:09

viewers do they know who their MEP S I suspect nobody out there knows who

0:53:100:53:13

it is. Is that because of the system used to elect them? Well it is

0:53:140:53:17

because of the fact that they regard them as being totally unimportant

0:53:180:53:21

but yet they cost the British taxpayer three times as much as

0:53:220:53:25

Members of Parliament. It is true, people don't know who their MEP is.

0:53:260:53:29

I would agree. Most people don't know. To be honest, most people

0:53:300:53:33

don't know who their MP is either, in many, many places. The key thing

0:53:340:53:37

that we have to accept is that we wanted, as a UK. Democracy, to have

0:53:380:53:41

a clear distinction between the role of an MP and other elected people

0:53:420:53:46

and this is' one of the reasons why we went for the larger regional list

0:53:470:53:50

system for Europe because we wanted to maintain there was a difference.

0:53:510:53:53

However, that doesn't mean that we don't vote for those MEPs, it

0:53:540:53:56

doesn't mean they report back, it doesn't mean they are not involved

0:53:570:53:59

in their local communities, because they are. The turnout at MEP

0:54:000:54:04

elections is rather pathetically poor. Actually, the kands dates for

0:54:050:54:15

each party isn't selected by -- the candidates for the party isn't

0:54:160:54:18

selected by the people, it is by political parties. What we joined in

0:54:190:54:23

1972 and voted for in 1975 was effectively a free trade zone.

0:54:240:54:29

Rather like NAFDA between America, Mexico and Canada. They retain their

0:54:300:54:34

own parliaments and currency. What this has become a is superstate

0:54:350:54:38

organisation. You were never in favour of joining the euro, either.

0:54:390:54:41

Personally I had my strong doubts about it. Did you fight the party's

0:54:420:54:47

policy to join it? I reluctantly accepted T it never went for a vote.

0:54:480:54:51

You were keen on monetary union but not political union? I think we have

0:54:520:54:55

gone beyond simply monetary union. We have seen the best decision

0:54:560:54:58

Britain made was not to join the euro. What can you say to people

0:54:590:55:03

like Paul Keetch within our own party. I don't know how many are

0:55:040:55:08

voting to leave. What will you say? Think carefully about the

0:55:090:55:11

involvements this country has had in Europe and our influence. Many of

0:55:120:55:15

the things he said about free trade. The UK has led on the single market

0:55:160:55:19

and the UK is a major beneficiary. If we walk away from, that we lose

0:55:200:55:24

power to influence it in the future. Thank you both.

0:55:250:55:29

Now, the European Football Championships kicks off tomorrow -

0:55:300:55:30

JoCo's very excited, she's been dusting off her vuvuzela.

0:55:310:55:38

Although what she does in the privacy of her own home is none of

0:55:390:55:43

our business! But will the football give us any

0:55:440:55:44

clues as to how people vote We can't trust the pollsters any

0:55:450:55:47

more, so we thought we'd turn to the world of football

0:55:480:55:55

for a referendum prediction. And who better to give us that

0:55:560:55:57

prediction than Cass the Psychic Cass lives in the United States,

0:55:580:56:00

and has predicted the results of every match in the Euro 2016

0:56:010:56:11

group stages, which she does by choosing between two plates

0:56:120:56:14

filled with cat treats. She's predicting that Wales

0:56:150:56:17

will beat England next week. So we asked her owner if Cass

0:56:180:56:22

could also turn her paw to predicting the result

0:56:230:56:31

on the 23rd of June - Cass is for Remain. I think we can

0:56:320:57:07

all agree that's a bit of a watershed moment in that referendum

0:57:080:57:11

campaign. The plate was closer, I thought to the cat. Shush.

0:57:120:57:14

And if you thought that looked a bit iffy -

0:57:150:57:16

so did we, but we've been assured by Cass's owners that she was acting

0:57:170:57:19

It is a she now, he was a he a minute ago. Obviously had the

0:57:200:57:29

operation as well. She was independent.

0:57:300:57:31

Although her mystical skills are do far entirely untested,

0:57:320:57:34

Now to talk about the possible relationship between the Euros

0:57:350:57:38

and politics we're joined by Angus Loughran, who rose to fame

0:57:390:57:40

as the statistician 'Statto' on Fantasy Football League.

0:57:410:57:43

Did the Prime Minister make a mistake to have the referendum in

0:57:440:57:54

the middle of a big football competition? It could go both ways.

0:57:550:57:59

I don't feel so. I think the feel-good factor will go England's

0:58:000:58:01

way. Remember the referendum is after the group stages. Three wins,

0:58:020:58:06

they could be... What if it is #24r50e defeats? I think it could

0:58:070:58:10

definitely. It'll have a huge effect if it was three defeats. Didn't

0:58:110:58:18

Harold Wilson blame losing the 1970 election on the defeat. They were

0:58:190:58:22

the holders and fancied to win it in 1970. You are right, if England were

0:58:230:58:26

to bomb out, I think that would have a much more significant effect on

0:58:270:58:30

the result of the referendum, than if England do W I expect England to

0:58:310:58:35

do well. I think that will be a result. But a defeat will be

0:58:360:58:38

colossal, I think. Sorry it has been so short. I blame the cat, myself.

0:58:390:58:42

Thank you for joining us. The One O'Clock News is on BBC One.

0:58:430:58:46

And I'll be on BBC One for This Week with Michael Portillo,

0:58:470:58:54

Liz Kendall, Suzanne Evans, Martin Lewis and Quentin Letts,

0:58:550:58:56

plus Michael Moore and Jerry Springer all joining me from 11.45

0:58:570:58:59

It's home to a million people at any one time...

0:59:000:59:03

..consumes tens of millions of meals,

0:59:040:59:05

burns around ?150 billion worth of jet fuel...

0:59:060:59:10

..and handles over three billion pieces of luggage a year.

0:59:110:59:13

discover there's more than the air beneath the wings

0:59:140:59:20

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