Browse content similar to 09/06/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics. | 0:00:35 | 0:00:38 | |
Just two weeks to go until the EU referendum, and this morning brings | 0:00:39 | 0:00:47 | |
some big endorsements for Leave and Remain. | 0:00:48 | 0:00:49 | |
The Remain camp is cock-a-hoop that Conservative MP and GP | 0:00:50 | 0:00:52 | |
Sarah Woolaston has swapped sides and no longer supports leaving, | 0:00:53 | 0:00:54 | |
We'll be asking her to explain her sudden change of heart. | 0:00:55 | 0:00:58 | |
But Leave thinks it's had its own earth-shaking moment | 0:00:59 | 0:01:02 | |
this morning, as the boss of JCB becomes the first major employer | 0:01:03 | 0:01:05 | |
He says the UK can stand on its own two feet. | 0:01:06 | 0:01:11 | |
No love lost between Jeremy Corbyn and Tony Blair, as the former prime | 0:01:12 | 0:01:15 | |
minister hits back at criticism over his part in the Iraq war | 0:01:16 | 0:01:18 | |
and claims Mr Corbyn isn't interested in | 0:01:19 | 0:01:20 | |
Cass the mystic moggy has been predicting the football results, | 0:01:21 | 0:01:38 | |
and today she'll turn her paw to predicting how we'll vote | 0:01:39 | 0:01:41 | |
A real scientific sample. It could be a watershed moment in this | 0:01:42 | 0:01:49 | |
referendum. And from one mystic mog who can | 0:01:50 | 0:01:52 | |
see into the future - well, apparently - to a man | 0:01:53 | 0:01:56 | |
who makes his living peering back I speak of course of | 0:01:57 | 0:01:59 | |
the historian, Andrew Roberts. He's a member of the Historians | 0:02:00 | 0:02:05 | |
for Britain group, which is backing a vote to leave | 0:02:06 | 0:02:07 | |
in the EU referendum. So first today, let's talk | 0:02:08 | 0:02:10 | |
about a bit of a coup for the Remain camp overnight, | 0:02:11 | 0:02:20 | |
that's the announcement by Conservative MP Sarah Woolaston | 0:02:21 | 0:02:22 | |
that she's switching her support The reason it's significant | 0:02:23 | 0:02:25 | |
is because she's known as an independent-minded | 0:02:26 | 0:02:29 | |
backbencher, she's chair of the Health Select Committee | 0:02:30 | 0:02:34 | |
and she's a GP - and she says her decision to switch sides centres | 0:02:35 | 0:02:37 | |
on the 'out' campaign's use of a slogan claiming that leaving | 0:02:38 | 0:02:40 | |
the EU could free up ?350 million She writes in this morning's Times | 0:02:41 | 0:02:43 | |
'they have knowingly placed a financial lie at the heart | 0:02:44 | 0:02:55 | |
of their campaign. It's an empty promise that | 0:02:56 | 0:02:58 | |
would soon backfire'. She says the arrival of her postal | 0:02:59 | 0:03:00 | |
vote crystallised the decision, and she now believes | 0:03:01 | 0:03:05 | |
leaving would harm the NHS. Welcome to the programme. You | 0:03:06 | 0:03:19 | |
previously said you could not back and David Cameron's threadbare deal. | 0:03:20 | 0:03:22 | |
That is what you described what he brought back from Brussels. What | 0:03:23 | 0:03:28 | |
changed? A lot of people like me were very disappointed and would | 0:03:29 | 0:03:32 | |
have liked to have seen the EU go further, particularly at a time when | 0:03:33 | 0:03:35 | |
there is a risk that Britain might leave. It is not just centring on | 0:03:36 | 0:03:39 | |
the Vote Leave campaign, it is about all of the arguments. People have | 0:03:40 | 0:03:44 | |
been asking, is the NHS going to be better or worse off? Is our public | 0:03:45 | 0:03:49 | |
health going to be better or worse? And looking at all those arguments, | 0:03:50 | 0:03:54 | |
it is clear to me that there will be a financial penalty on Brexit. There | 0:03:55 | 0:04:00 | |
will not be a Brexit bonanza. Is the deal still threadbare or does it not | 0:04:01 | 0:04:04 | |
matter? The deal still matters, but you have to look at this in its | 0:04:05 | 0:04:09 | |
entirety. It is not just about the deal. And on both sides there is a | 0:04:10 | 0:04:12 | |
lot of conspiracy theories doing the rounds. We have to deal with about | 0:04:13 | 0:04:20 | |
one a day. Let me ask you, so that you can tell us, you were not | 0:04:21 | 0:04:25 | |
planning to do this all along? No, that is clearly nonsense. It has | 0:04:26 | 0:04:28 | |
been a growing feeling and the other thing that has crystallised it more, | 0:04:29 | 0:04:34 | |
my father has been an NHS patient of late and he is 81 now. As a | 0:04:35 | 0:04:39 | |
teenager, for him the idea of conflict in Europe is not an | 0:04:40 | 0:04:43 | |
abstract possibility. He was asking me all the way to the operating door | 0:04:44 | 0:04:47 | |
to change my vote because he feels profoundly that this will have | 0:04:48 | 0:04:51 | |
ripple effects and is destabilising effect. And I think you have to | 0:04:52 | 0:04:56 | |
listen to those kind of years. I do one of the other defectors? -- those | 0:04:57 | 0:05:03 | |
kind of use. I think people have to say for themselves. I was not asking | 0:05:04 | 0:05:10 | |
you to name them yet. But certainly, in private conversations people have | 0:05:11 | 0:05:14 | |
told me they are having doubts. It is about research, public health,... | 0:05:15 | 0:05:19 | |
Lots of things. And you have been tweeting about it. Let's look at | 0:05:20 | 0:05:25 | |
what you have been tweeting. This one was about Greece. You spoke | 0:05:26 | 0:05:31 | |
about your father in the war. Why do you support an institution, which, | 0:05:32 | 0:05:35 | |
in your own words, created a lost generation of young people in Greece | 0:05:36 | 0:05:39 | |
and Italy? Because of course there are problems with the EU. I do not | 0:05:40 | 0:05:44 | |
go back from what I said about that. But a lost generation is more than | 0:05:45 | 0:05:48 | |
just a problem. Young people, that is a systematic failure. It is. And | 0:05:49 | 0:05:54 | |
the EU, but it must not do is interpret this as a full on | 0:05:55 | 0:06:03 | |
endorsement of -- if Britain votes to stay. I hope that they will look | 0:06:04 | 0:06:07 | |
carefully at some of the arguments that have been made throughout this | 0:06:08 | 0:06:09 | |
campaign and think again about the way they operate. Well, we are doing | 0:06:10 | 0:06:15 | |
our best on that. Here is another one. You criticised the Remain | 0:06:16 | 0:06:19 | |
campaign for wasting ?9 billion of taxpayers money on what you describe | 0:06:20 | 0:06:26 | |
as one-sided propaganda. Do you still think that about the ?9 | 0:06:27 | 0:06:32 | |
million? Yes. And I do not think the public have been well served about | 0:06:33 | 0:06:36 | |
other side. I have been critical for weeks about this. The public deserve | 0:06:37 | 0:06:42 | |
better. Indeed. In another Tweet you described the Remain campaign as | 0:06:43 | 0:06:45 | |
ratcheting up the alarmist rhetoric, taking people for fools. Talking us | 0:06:46 | 0:06:55 | |
down as little Britain. Why have you joined a campaign that takes us for | 0:06:56 | 0:07:02 | |
fools, talks us down and has been responsible for alarmist rhetoric. I | 0:07:03 | 0:07:07 | |
have not joined the official In campaign rather than I have joined | 0:07:08 | 0:07:10 | |
the official Vote Leave campaign. But I have real concerns about the | 0:07:11 | 0:07:15 | |
quality of information. I came into politics campaigning for better | 0:07:16 | 0:07:18 | |
information in public life and we have not seen that from either side. | 0:07:19 | 0:07:22 | |
But you could actually say that it is true of both sides. You have been | 0:07:23 | 0:07:27 | |
particularly angered by the claim, on the side of the leave bus,, that | 0:07:28 | 0:07:39 | |
they say we spend ?350 million a week on our membership. And that has | 0:07:40 | 0:07:43 | |
been widely discredited, including by us. But the site you are | 0:07:44 | 0:07:47 | |
supporting has its own problem with fake figures. They claimed that by | 0:07:48 | 0:07:53 | |
2030 each household will be ?4300 worse off. That is what you're | 0:07:54 | 0:08:02 | |
saying. Do you agree with that? No. The point is about how it is | 0:08:03 | 0:08:06 | |
interpreted. It does not mean that each individual household will lose | 0:08:07 | 0:08:09 | |
that amount of money. That is the trouble, it is the way that the | 0:08:10 | 0:08:13 | |
figures are presented that can be misleading. But look at the battle | 0:08:14 | 0:08:17 | |
bus, you have a picture of it behind you, the NHS logo. It is outrageous. | 0:08:18 | 0:08:24 | |
I understand that. I am trying to work out how having left out of the | 0:08:25 | 0:08:31 | |
frying pan, you have jumped into the fire. The Treasury Select Committee, | 0:08:32 | 0:08:34 | |
on this figure, you know that this matters because you are a chair of a | 0:08:35 | 0:08:38 | |
Treasury Select Committee. It is cheered by a Tory but it is pretty | 0:08:39 | 0:08:43 | |
independent minded. It says of the ?4300 claim that households would | 0:08:44 | 0:08:47 | |
all be that much worse off and that that is not what the main Treasury | 0:08:48 | 0:08:51 | |
analysis found. The average impact on household income would be | 0:08:52 | 0:08:55 | |
considerably smaller than that. And then it says that neither government | 0:08:56 | 0:08:59 | |
departments nor the Remain campaign should risk repeating this | 0:09:00 | 0:09:06 | |
assertion. To persist with this claim would be to misrepresent the | 0:09:07 | 0:09:10 | |
Treasury's on works. So you have gone from one side that is | 0:09:11 | 0:09:14 | |
representing a figure falsely to another side misrepresenting a | 0:09:15 | 0:09:19 | |
figure. Can I just add that I am not joining the official Remain campaign | 0:09:20 | 0:09:21 | |
any more than I was on the battle bus. But you have let from one | 0:09:22 | 0:09:30 | |
figure on to another. You do not have to be endorsing the way the | 0:09:31 | 0:09:33 | |
campaign has operated. I have been very clear for weeks that the public | 0:09:34 | 0:09:37 | |
deserve better and both sides have been using data in a way that is not | 0:09:38 | 0:09:42 | |
helpful. But why is the ?4300 figure any better in its own way than the | 0:09:43 | 0:09:50 | |
350 million? So why have you switched? Because it is not about | 0:09:51 | 0:09:54 | |
the campaigns. This is about... You said it was about the figure on the | 0:09:55 | 0:10:01 | |
bus. My decision has been about weighing up the arguments. It is not | 0:10:02 | 0:10:06 | |
about the figure the bus. But you said on this programme it was. You | 0:10:07 | 0:10:11 | |
just said it. But the decision, and I'm very irritated by the figure on | 0:10:12 | 0:10:14 | |
the bus but of course the decision about who you vote is not about a | 0:10:15 | 0:10:21 | |
figure on a bus, it is about weighing up the argument. And for | 0:10:22 | 0:10:25 | |
me, listening to the consensus, it is very clear that there would be a | 0:10:26 | 0:10:29 | |
profound economic shock. Do I field will be a Brexit bonanza or a | 0:10:30 | 0:10:34 | |
penalty? I think it will be a penalty. And you spoke about the | 0:10:35 | 0:10:37 | |
NHS, of particular concern because you are a GP. And of course you | 0:10:38 | 0:10:44 | |
chair a Select Committee. You sign the amendment to the Queen's Speech | 0:10:45 | 0:10:47 | |
which regretted that a bill to protect the NHS from the | 0:10:48 | 0:10:52 | |
transatlantic trade agreement was not included in it. And that is part | 0:10:53 | 0:10:58 | |
of an EU deal with the United States which we will be part of if we stay | 0:10:59 | 0:11:03 | |
in. Have you had assurances from the government that they will do | 0:11:04 | 0:11:08 | |
something to protect the NHS from the transatlantic radial? As the | 0:11:09 | 0:11:11 | |
chair of the health committee, I have been in correspondence with the | 0:11:12 | 0:11:15 | |
last Parliament, with the EU around this issue. And they have given us | 0:11:16 | 0:11:21 | |
written assurances that health would be exempted. But you still signed | 0:11:22 | 0:11:25 | |
the amendment. What is clear to me is that people do not believe it. | 0:11:26 | 0:11:32 | |
People wanted to be explicit, they do not trust an agreement with the | 0:11:33 | 0:11:35 | |
EU. I felt that it was better for the government to just be explicit | 0:11:36 | 0:11:40 | |
and say, let's include it. I think it will have been excluded anyway | 0:11:41 | 0:11:43 | |
but people did not believe it so why not just make it exclusive? So you | 0:11:44 | 0:11:48 | |
have had no assurance that the government will go that way? I hope | 0:11:49 | 0:11:52 | |
that they will. They have said they will and I think they should honour | 0:11:53 | 0:11:55 | |
that agreement. They should make it explicit because people do not | 0:11:56 | 0:11:59 | |
believe it and having spent some time over the last Parliament | 0:12:00 | 0:12:04 | |
showing them an assurance from the EU, the problem is that when people | 0:12:05 | 0:12:07 | |
do not believe it, they have been using it to a political tool and it | 0:12:08 | 0:12:11 | |
is best to make it explicit. Andrew Roberts, very important decision on | 0:12:12 | 0:12:16 | |
June 23. At the heart of the campaign from Remain and Leave, two | 0:12:17 | 0:12:22 | |
totemic figures which independent observers believe, both, to be | 0:12:23 | 0:12:29 | |
deeply dodgy. Is that anyway to run a clearly not. But do not believe | 0:12:30 | 0:12:35 | |
that buses saying we will spend ?350 million entirely on the NHS. But it | 0:12:36 | 0:12:40 | |
says we would save it and that is not true either. Absolutely. But it | 0:12:41 | 0:12:44 | |
is a gross figure. When I ask you how much you are paid, you give me | 0:12:45 | 0:12:52 | |
the gross figure. But that is what you are asking, gross or net? The | 0:12:53 | 0:12:56 | |
real amount is ?19.1 billion and when you divide it, it is a bit more | 0:12:57 | 0:13:02 | |
than ?350 million. But then you take away the stuff that is not being | 0:13:03 | 0:13:06 | |
taken back. It is not discretionary. But ?5 billion of that ?18 billion | 0:13:07 | 0:13:14 | |
never goes in the first place. It is the abatement. People call it a | 0:13:15 | 0:13:22 | |
rebate but it is -- it never goes to Brussels in the first place. We send | 0:13:23 | 0:13:26 | |
?13 billion and we get ?4.5 billion back. And of course that figure | 0:13:27 | 0:13:33 | |
should have been... You probably need a bigger bus to explain it. | 0:13:34 | 0:13:39 | |
With regards to what Sarah was saying, I hope that you can tell | 0:13:40 | 0:13:43 | |
your father, who was busily very brave in the war, after the war in | 0:13:44 | 0:13:50 | |
the Royal Navy, but bomb disposal is a really brave job, underwater bomb | 0:13:51 | 0:13:54 | |
disposal is incredibly brave. But you have to remind him that it has | 0:13:55 | 0:13:59 | |
not been the EU that has kept us safe since 1945, since 1949 it has | 0:14:00 | 0:14:04 | |
been Nato. We will still stay in Nato if we come out of Britain. If | 0:14:05 | 0:14:09 | |
anything the EU has been bad for peace and security because you only | 0:14:10 | 0:14:13 | |
have to look at what happened with 250 million people dying -- 250,000 | 0:14:14 | 0:14:17 | |
people dying in the Yugoslavian civil war to appreciate that. We | 0:14:18 | 0:14:22 | |
will let you ponder what Mr Robert has says. | 0:14:23 | 0:14:26 | |
And if you change your mind, come on! -- come back on. How have things | 0:14:27 | 0:14:35 | |
been with your father? He's making a good recovery and he is delighted | 0:14:36 | 0:14:38 | |
that I have changed my mind because he believes it absolutely profoundly | 0:14:39 | 0:14:42 | |
and many of his generation do. Bassong what Roberts says. We thank | 0:14:43 | 0:14:47 | |
you for coming on to explain your decision. -- pass on what Mr Roberts | 0:14:48 | 0:14:52 | |
says. So if that was a significant moment | 0:14:53 | 0:14:53 | |
for the Remain campaign, but there's been a significant | 0:14:54 | 0:14:55 | |
moment for leave too this morning after the Chairman | 0:14:56 | 0:14:58 | |
of the manufacturing firm JCB, Anthony Bamford, wrote to his staff | 0:14:59 | 0:15:00 | |
in the UK explaining why he's in favour of a vote to leave | 0:15:01 | 0:15:03 | |
the European Union. Lord Bamford - who is a major donor | 0:15:04 | 0:15:05 | |
to the Conservative Party - says in the letter that he is "very | 0:15:06 | 0:15:08 | |
confident that we can stand He believes that JCB and the UK can | 0:15:09 | 0:15:18 | |
prosper just as much outside the EU. He said there is very little to fear | 0:15:19 | 0:15:20 | |
if we do choose to leave. Let's talk now to our political | 0:15:21 | 0:15:23 | |
correspondent, Theo Leggett. It is clearly significant. It is a | 0:15:24 | 0:15:34 | |
leading businessman, operating a company that employs thousands of | 0:15:35 | 0:15:38 | |
people, 6,500 here in the UK, it exports all around the world. He is | 0:15:39 | 0:15:41 | |
saying unequivocally - actually, we are as well off outside the European | 0:15:42 | 0:15:45 | |
Union as we are within it. Now, of course, he is also a donor to the | 0:15:46 | 0:15:49 | |
Conservative Party. JCB has been applauded by David Cameron himself | 0:15:50 | 0:15:53 | |
as a totem of British engineering around the world. So it is | 0:15:54 | 0:15:57 | |
significant he has intervened. Don't forget n recent weeks we have had | 0:15:58 | 0:16:01 | |
letters written by other companies, such as Airbus and BMW and Siemens, | 0:16:02 | 0:16:05 | |
all telling their staff that we are better off inside the European | 0:16:06 | 0:16:09 | |
Union. So, in a sense, you could say this letter redresses some of that | 0:16:10 | 0:16:14 | |
balance and allows the Vote Leave to regain the ground many people feel | 0:16:15 | 0:16:17 | |
it has lost in the economic argument. Right, this is the first | 0:16:18 | 0:16:23 | |
letter written by a leading businessmened a vericateding Brexit | 0:16:24 | 0:16:26 | |
to his employees. Was it a big secret he was in favour of leaving | 0:16:27 | 0:16:32 | |
the EU? It was no secret he was eurosceptic and he felt the sky | 0:16:33 | 0:16:35 | |
would not fall in if we were to leave the European Union. He has | 0:16:36 | 0:16:39 | |
been saying that for the past year but he has been operating outside of | 0:16:40 | 0:16:42 | |
the major Leave campaign. He hasn't signed up to the letters written by | 0:16:43 | 0:16:44 | |
other businessmen saying that leaving the EU is the way we should | 0:16:45 | 0:16:48 | |
go. He has bided his time and written what reads as a personal | 0:16:49 | 0:16:52 | |
letter to his own employees. He doesn't crucially tell them how they | 0:16:53 | 0:16:55 | |
should vote. He merely says - these are my personal views. This is what | 0:16:56 | 0:16:58 | |
I think, what I would encourage you to think, but you are voting | 0:16:59 | 0:17:08 | |
according to your own belief. He stresses this vote is most | 0:17:09 | 0:17:10 | |
important, more important than a general election and the most | 0:17:11 | 0:17:13 | |
crucial thing is not how they vote but that they do go out and vote. | 0:17:14 | 0:17:18 | |
Thank you very much. The timing is crucial in the final few weeks. | 0:17:19 | 0:17:22 | |
It certainly s we'll probably expect more than of as we go on. | 0:17:23 | 0:17:26 | |
Now John Major is a busy man these days - fresh from mauling | 0:17:27 | 0:17:29 | |
Boris Johnson in a TV interview at the weekend, this morning he's | 0:17:30 | 0:17:32 | |
been in Northern Ireland speaking alongside another former PM, | 0:17:33 | 0:17:34 | |
Both of course were heavily involved in securing | 0:17:35 | 0:17:37 | |
the peace process there, and they've warned that | 0:17:38 | 0:17:41 | |
the still-fragile political settlement could be destabilised | 0:17:42 | 0:17:42 | |
Here they are speaking a short while ago. | 0:17:43 | 0:17:49 | |
So, I believe it would be an historic mistake to do | 0:17:50 | 0:17:52 | |
risk of destabilising the complicated and multi-layered | 0:17:53 | 0:17:57 | |
constitutional settlement that underpins the present stability | 0:17:58 | 0:18:00 | |
And when we negotiated the Good Friday Agreement, | 0:18:01 | 0:18:10 | |
it wasn't easier at a whole range of different levels, but one | 0:18:11 | 0:18:13 | |
vital part of that, which people often overlooked, | 0:18:14 | 0:18:16 | |
was that it also symbolised the new relationship | 0:18:17 | 0:18:18 | |
between the Republic of Ireland and the UK, within | 0:18:19 | 0:18:20 | |
So former Prime Ministers for the price of one there. | 0:18:21 | 0:18:34 | |
We're joined now by the DUP's deputy leader Nigel Dodds, | 0:18:35 | 0:18:36 | |
he's backing a vote to leave, and by the Shadow Northern Ireland | 0:18:37 | 0:18:39 | |
Welcome to you both. Mr Dodds, let me come to you first. Tony Blair | 0:18:40 | 0:18:52 | |
says - Northern Ireland's stability, it rests on carefully-constructed | 0:18:53 | 0:18:54 | |
foundations, includes that we are members of the EU and that the | 0:18:55 | 0:19:00 | |
Republic is a member of the EU as well. Why would you want it shake | 0:19:01 | 0:19:04 | |
the foundations? Well, can I say, of all the claims that have been made | 0:19:05 | 0:19:10 | |
about threats to the UK and the constituent parts of the UK if we | 0:19:11 | 0:19:15 | |
were to leave the EU, I find this claim that Northern Ireland's | 0:19:16 | 0:19:18 | |
political instability is going to be undermined, one of the most | 0:19:19 | 0:19:21 | |
depressing and disappointing. Why is that? Well, because I think John | 0:19:22 | 0:19:27 | |
Major and Tony Blair have made an enormous contribution to the | 0:19:28 | 0:19:29 | |
Northern Ireland peace process over the years. I mean they carried a | 0:19:30 | 0:19:35 | |
very heavy burden and, you know it wasn't everything I agreed with that | 0:19:36 | 0:19:39 | |
they did but they did an enormous amount in moving the Northern | 0:19:40 | 0:19:41 | |
Ireland political situation forward. I think for them to come and to use | 0:19:42 | 0:19:46 | |
their authority to try to promote an argument - and there are many | 0:19:47 | 0:19:49 | |
argument that could be made, but this argument that they are | 0:19:50 | 0:19:51 | |
promoting about the threats to the political and peace process is one | 0:19:52 | 0:19:55 | |
that is simply scaremongering and very irresponsible. Well, let's get | 0:19:56 | 0:20:00 | |
- do you believe that the peace process - I was going to say unravel | 0:20:01 | 0:20:06 | |
- that may be taking it too far, but would the be in more danger if we | 0:20:07 | 0:20:10 | |
were to leave the EU? I think the first thing to say - I don't think | 0:20:11 | 0:20:15 | |
it would unravel. And I think that would be going far too far. I don't | 0:20:16 | 0:20:19 | |
think that. And I would also say I don't believe we are going to go | 0:20:20 | 0:20:23 | |
back to the bad old days of the past. But I do think... In or out. | 0:20:24 | 0:20:27 | |
Absolutely. So what is the case, then? I do think that much of the | 0:20:28 | 0:20:32 | |
initial Good Friday Agreement and the subsequent agreements, rest on | 0:20:33 | 0:20:35 | |
the assumption that both Ireland and Britain are within the EU, the | 0:20:36 | 0:20:39 | |
North-South bodies, the East-West bodies, they all rest on that. I | 0:20:40 | 0:20:43 | |
think it does race the issue of what will be the cons sequences, not just | 0:20:44 | 0:20:49 | |
for Northern Ireland but the UK as a whole from -- consequences, from the | 0:20:50 | 0:20:53 | |
UK leaving the. U. Give me a confidence and we'll put it to Mr | 0:20:54 | 0:20:58 | |
Dodds. -- give me a consequence. What happens with Scotland. Let us | 0:20:59 | 0:21:02 | |
not go there. But the border, what happens with the border when it | 0:21:03 | 0:21:05 | |
becomes a bored between the UK and EU. What are the consequences? Mr | 0:21:06 | 0:21:10 | |
Dodds, it is an open border at the moment. Would it remain or not? It | 0:21:11 | 0:21:16 | |
would. The common travel area, the arrangement whereby people can move | 0:21:17 | 0:21:19 | |
freely between the Irish Republic and UK has been in place since 1923. | 0:21:20 | 0:21:24 | |
We have had almost 100 years. We have preicated the European Union, | 0:21:25 | 0:21:27 | |
it'll outlast the European Union if we leave. It is very, very clear, | 0:21:28 | 0:21:33 | |
even the Irish Ambassador to London said last year t would remain in | 0:21:34 | 0:21:38 | |
place. So, look, I don't understand why people - they can make all sorts | 0:21:39 | 0:21:42 | |
of argument on the economic front and all the rest of it, why there is | 0:21:43 | 0:21:47 | |
this attempt to scaremonger and unsettle people and destabilise the | 0:21:48 | 0:21:49 | |
situation in Northern Ireland unnecessarily. Vernon talked there | 0:21:50 | 0:21:53 | |
about the institutions of the Good Friday Agreement, the St Andrew's | 0:21:54 | 0:21:58 | |
agreement and so on. We have people in the East-West institutions like | 0:21:59 | 0:22:01 | |
Isle of Man and Channel Islands for whom there is free movement but they | 0:22:02 | 0:22:04 | |
are not members of the EU. This happens already in the context of | 0:22:05 | 0:22:09 | |
East-West institutions set up under the Belfast Agreement. I think the | 0:22:10 | 0:22:13 | |
two former Prime Ministers that are in Northern Ireland today, with the | 0:22:14 | 0:22:16 | |
greatest respect to them, and having paid tribute to the work they have | 0:22:17 | 0:22:21 | |
done, should not be going around, engaged in this kind of | 0:22:22 | 0:22:25 | |
scaremongering. It really devalues their reputation, does no good at | 0:22:26 | 0:22:30 | |
all and I think we should be concentrating on the really big | 0:22:31 | 0:22:33 | |
issues which is - how much better it is economically, in terms of getting | 0:22:34 | 0:22:37 | |
control over our borders, control over our laws, control over our | 0:22:38 | 0:22:41 | |
money, for the UK as a whole to be outside the European Union. What do | 0:22:42 | 0:22:44 | |
you say then that the border wouldn't change? It has been around, | 0:22:45 | 0:22:48 | |
the open border since the early 1920s. Of course there was then a | 0:22:49 | 0:22:54 | |
big chunk when things grew, we were both inside the EU, as things | 0:22:55 | 0:22:58 | |
changed. So what with a the risk of the border be? I think the first | 0:22:59 | 0:23:03 | |
point to make, is first of all when Ireland and Britain were outside | 0:23:04 | 0:23:06 | |
evident EU, they were both outside and joined at the same time. So they | 0:23:07 | 0:23:10 | |
have been been in the EU. The common travel arrangement has worked when | 0:23:11 | 0:23:13 | |
it has been synonymous, the arrangements between Ireland and | 0:23:14 | 0:23:17 | |
Britain but the danger - Nigel moved on tow trade. What would the | 0:23:18 | 0:23:20 | |
consequences of being outside of the EU for goods that move backwards and | 0:23:21 | 0:23:26 | |
forwards. It is not just me saying that or John Major and Tony Blair. | 0:23:27 | 0:23:29 | |
We have had the Treasury, the Chancellor saying that. We have had | 0:23:30 | 0:23:33 | |
the Northern Ireland Office itself pointing there could be consequences | 0:23:34 | 0:23:37 | |
and recently the Home Office writing to the newry Chamber of #1k57 | 0:23:38 | 0:23:48 | |
commerce saying there may beism there chamber of Commerce, saying | 0:23:49 | 0:23:51 | |
there maybe implications for the trading. Well, if we are outside the | 0:23:52 | 0:23:56 | |
you single market, which is a possibility that someone on your | 0:23:57 | 0:24:04 | |
side said, we may not get in with, and Ireland stays inside T there | 0:24:05 | 0:24:08 | |
could be tariffs, big or small, tariff barriers. You would have to | 0:24:09 | 0:24:14 | |
have something on the word border. If the event you outlined, and there | 0:24:15 | 0:24:20 | |
are arguments about about that, but if you were inside that scenario the | 0:24:21 | 0:24:27 | |
idea of physical barriers along the border is nonsense given electronic | 0:24:28 | 0:24:31 | |
and digital arrangements. We don't have that arrangement in Sweden and | 0:24:32 | 0:24:34 | |
Norway, and other countries where there is a border. But for most | 0:24:35 | 0:24:39 | |
things that are traded Norway is in the single market and Norway has | 0:24:40 | 0:24:42 | |
free movement of people I'm simply making the point that you do not | 0:24:43 | 0:24:47 | |
need a hard border in order to have that kind of arrangement. The other | 0:24:48 | 0:24:50 | |
thing I would say in terms of Northern Ireland and Vernon will | 0:24:51 | 0:24:53 | |
remember the argument well, when we were urged to join the single | 0:24:54 | 0:24:58 | |
currency, we were told that for decades the Irish Republic and | 0:24:59 | 0:25:03 | |
Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK were in parity with the Irish | 0:25:04 | 0:25:07 | |
pound linked inextricably with the British pound. All dire prediction | 0:25:08 | 0:25:15 | |
it is would disrupt trade. The Newry Chamber of Commerce saying it would | 0:25:16 | 0:25:18 | |
wipe us out. Imagine having to change the currency at the Northern | 0:25:19 | 0:25:21 | |
Ireland border. None of this happened. Well let's hear Mr Coaker. | 0:25:22 | 0:25:28 | |
The UK Government took the decision it woovent be in the interests of | 0:25:29 | 0:25:31 | |
Northern Ireland or any other part of the UK to join the euro. And that | 0:25:32 | 0:25:39 | |
was proved to be... Deand people -- and people are saying if we leave | 0:25:40 | 0:25:42 | |
there will be dire consequences. You make assumptions You can go on | 0:25:43 | 0:25:46 | |
records of last time. You take a balanced view on the evidence that | 0:25:47 | 0:25:49 | |
comes before you. As I say, it is not only myself. It's been the | 0:25:50 | 0:25:54 | |
Chancellor, the Home Office, as well as the Northern Ireland lpts It is | 0:25:55 | 0:25:57 | |
Tony Blair who is in Northern Ireland today, and your former | 0:25:58 | 0:26:00 | |
leader, the same man telling us about joining the single currency. | 0:26:01 | 0:26:03 | |
He was held back by Gordon Brown, thankfully at the end of the day. He | 0:26:04 | 0:26:07 | |
wanted to join the European currency. He is now telling people | 0:26:08 | 0:26:10 | |
in Northern Ireland to stay in the EU in terms of safety and all the | 0:26:11 | 0:26:14 | |
rest of it. I don't think we'll take any lessons... Well I think they | 0:26:15 | 0:26:17 | |
will from Tony Blair. They may take lessons from Andrew Roberts. As an | 0:26:18 | 0:26:22 | |
his store yob, you follow and know a historian, you follow and know a | 0:26:23 | 0:26:25 | |
will the about Irish history. What is your view? My view is that the | 0:26:26 | 0:26:28 | |
southern Irish have such enormous trade connections with Northern | 0:26:29 | 0:26:31 | |
Ireland, that they would not want to cause any trouble at all, whatever | 0:26:32 | 0:26:36 | |
Brussels wanted. I'm thrilled as an outer that Tony Blair is for the in | 0:26:37 | 0:26:39 | |
campaign, he is the most unpopular politician. Not in Northern Ireland. | 0:26:40 | 0:26:44 | |
And also, John Major, whenever he talks about Europe, he reminds us of | 0:26:45 | 0:26:52 | |
the 4 billion he we lost in the ERM debacle and Maastricht. So keep | 0:26:53 | 0:26:57 | |
going guys. A crystal ball. I'm told there is a clear half majority - old | 0:26:58 | 0:27:02 | |
fashioned terms - a clear majority in the protestant community for | 0:27:03 | 0:27:06 | |
leave but an overwhelming majority in the Catholic community for stay S | 0:27:07 | 0:27:10 | |
that broadly right? I prefer to talk about unionists... You know what I | 0:27:11 | 0:27:15 | |
mean. There are many unionists within the Catholics. I think most | 0:27:16 | 0:27:22 | |
unionists will broadly speaking be for Leave and overwhelming in the | 0:27:23 | 0:27:26 | |
nationalists, for stay, because Dublin is saying we should stay. But | 0:27:27 | 0:27:29 | |
we are gaining all the time. We shall see. Thank you both. | 0:27:30 | 0:27:36 | |
Mary McAleese, the President was talking about it the other evening. | 0:27:37 | 0:27:39 | |
Well, we've been talking about Tony Blair the statesman | 0:27:40 | 0:27:41 | |
there, and in general in interviews these days the former Labour leader | 0:27:42 | 0:27:44 | |
tries to steer clear of talking too much about domestic politics. | 0:27:45 | 0:27:47 | |
In a TV interview yesterday he launched his fiercest attack yet | 0:27:48 | 0:27:50 | |
on current Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn. | 0:27:51 | 0:27:52 | |
You know, I'm accused of being a war criminal | 0:27:53 | 0:27:58 | |
for removing Saddam Hussein, who, by the way, was a war criminal, | 0:27:59 | 0:28:01 | |
and yet, you know, Jeremy is seen as a progressive icon as we stand | 0:28:02 | 0:28:05 | |
by and watch the people of Syria barrel bombed, | 0:28:06 | 0:28:11 | |
beaten and starved into submission and do nothing. | 0:28:12 | 0:28:13 | |
The issue for me, is - what is the best way that you take | 0:28:14 | 0:28:18 | |
the traditional values of the left and apply them to the modern world? | 0:28:19 | 0:28:21 | |
Joining us to discuss this is the Labour MP Richard Burgon, | 0:28:22 | 0:28:30 | |
who nominated Jeremy Corbyn for the leadership. | 0:28:31 | 0:28:34 | |
Welcome back to the Daily Politics. Tony Blair has accused Jeremy Corbyn | 0:28:35 | 0:28:42 | |
of being the guy with a placard, representing the politics of | 0:28:43 | 0:28:44 | |
protest, unlike him, who he says represents the politics of power. | 0:28:45 | 0:28:49 | |
What do you say? I think it's nonsensical to say that Jeremy | 0:28:50 | 0:28:55 | |
Corbyn's leadership is the leadership of political protest. If | 0:28:56 | 0:28:58 | |
you look at what the Labour opposition has achieved under Jeremy | 0:28:59 | 0:29:02 | |
Corbyn's leadership. We have forced through active meaningful opposition | 0:29:03 | 0:29:06 | |
U-Turn on a whole host of things, for example, u turns on tax credit | 0:29:07 | 0:29:09 | |
cuts which would have cost 3 million families across the UK ?1,000 a | 0:29:10 | 0:29:13 | |
year. Was that not with the help of Tory rebels? It was a U-Turn, also, | 0:29:14 | 0:29:21 | |
on Sunday trading, a U-Turn on a tax, the money received on people | 0:29:22 | 0:29:26 | |
living with disabilities and a U-Turn on more Draconian elements of | 0:29:27 | 0:29:31 | |
the trade union bi. That's real politics, not protest politics. What | 0:29:32 | 0:29:35 | |
are the tough Dell significance that is Jeremy Corbyn has taken as | 0:29:36 | 0:29:39 | |
leader, which weren't generally in line with what he has protested | 0:29:40 | 0:29:43 | |
about in the past? Well one example was to give a free vote to Labour | 0:29:44 | 0:29:47 | |
MPs on the question of whether or not to support David Cameron's | 0:29:48 | 0:29:50 | |
bombing of Syria. Was that a tough decision on leadership or did that | 0:29:51 | 0:29:56 | |
exactly explicitly underline what Tony Blair has said, and shown no | 0:29:57 | 0:30:00 | |
leadership It was the right thing to do and Jeremy Corbyn by persuasion, | 0:30:01 | 0:30:04 | |
not by forcing people, persuaded the vast majority of Labour MPs to agree | 0:30:05 | 0:30:08 | |
with him that bombing Syria wasn't in the interests of the Syrian | 0:30:09 | 0:30:12 | |
people. But who made the round-up speech on behalf of the Labour Party | 0:30:13 | 0:30:17 | |
and the Opposition, Hilary Benn who contradicted his position st. And 66 | 0:30:18 | 0:30:22 | |
Labour MPs were persuaded by the case it back Cameron's plan to bomb | 0:30:23 | 0:30:25 | |
Syria the plan that Tony Blair backed and four times that number of | 0:30:26 | 0:30:29 | |
Labour MPs were persuaded by Jeremy Corbyn's leadership on that issue. | 0:30:30 | 0:30:34 | |
And on Trident? On Trident Jeremy Corbyn has always been clear and | 0:30:35 | 0:30:37 | |
consistent on that. I think we do need to take... What leadership has | 0:30:38 | 0:30:42 | |
he shown. I think we need to take on Tony Blair's comments, the reason | 0:30:43 | 0:30:46 | |
being one of the great lessons of New Labour, one of the great truths | 0:30:47 | 0:30:49 | |
that Tony Blair and others spoke about, was the need to always remain | 0:30:50 | 0:30:53 | |
with the modern world and update and adapt to current situations and just | 0:30:54 | 0:30:58 | |
as what worked in 1974, wouldn't work in 1997, what worked in 1997, | 0:30:59 | 0:31:02 | |
doesn't work in 2016 whatsoever. So you think he is out of touch and he | 0:31:03 | 0:31:06 | |
is in a that's how past and gone? I think Tony Blair was shown to be | 0:31:07 | 0:31:20 | |
out of touch in his calls to back the invasion of Syria. I think what | 0:31:21 | 0:31:23 | |
has happened to him is a real shame. He was clearly one of the most able | 0:31:24 | 0:31:30 | |
political communicators in his or any generation. The sad truth is | 0:31:31 | 0:31:34 | |
that through the disastrous, immoral war in Iraq and through his chasing | 0:31:35 | 0:31:38 | |
of money around the globe since he retired as Prime Minister, he has | 0:31:39 | 0:31:41 | |
lost the trust and respect of lots of British people who had trust and | 0:31:42 | 0:31:46 | |
respect for him previously. But he did win an election after the Iraq | 0:31:47 | 0:31:51 | |
war. Labour won three elections with him. And if we ask the people out | 0:31:52 | 0:31:59 | |
there what they think, many people see him as symbolic of the loss of | 0:32:00 | 0:32:04 | |
trust in the political class. And on that basis, you agree that the war | 0:32:05 | 0:32:08 | |
in Iraq was illegal? I believe it was immoral and illegal and we will | 0:32:09 | 0:32:12 | |
see what the Chilcot enquiry concludes. And the logic of that, | 0:32:13 | 0:32:16 | |
you feel that Tony Blair should face some charges? I believe that the war | 0:32:17 | 0:32:22 | |
in Iraq was immoral and illegal. I will wait to see what happens in two | 0:32:23 | 0:32:27 | |
weeks. And if the Chilcot enquiry says that it was an illegal war, and | 0:32:28 | 0:32:32 | |
is therefore illegal action is required, then it will be required. | 0:32:33 | 0:32:37 | |
So you support the idea that he should face charges? I wait to see | 0:32:38 | 0:32:41 | |
what the enquiry says but in my belief, it is an immoral and illegal | 0:32:42 | 0:32:47 | |
war. If you take that logic, then surely he would face charges? Of | 0:32:48 | 0:32:51 | |
course he would. The idea of putting a former panellist Minster on war | 0:32:52 | 0:32:54 | |
crime charges is a warrant, not least because of the House of | 0:32:55 | 0:32:58 | |
Commons, they voted for that war which means that it was not illegal. | 0:32:59 | 0:33:03 | |
If the house of commons and the House of Lords supports something, | 0:33:04 | 0:33:07 | |
it is legal. And the question of immorality, they were over showing a | 0:33:08 | 0:33:11 | |
-- overthrowing a fascist dictator, which is never immoral. To take | 0:33:12 | 0:33:22 | |
Andrew Roberts point, David Cameron and most of the Cabinet supported | 0:33:23 | 0:33:27 | |
the war of Iraq -- in Iraq. That was a different cabinet and a different | 0:33:28 | 0:33:30 | |
leadership. Andrew at the time was on record as saying that he looked | 0:33:31 | 0:33:34 | |
forward to be weapons of mass destruction being found. As we know, | 0:33:35 | 0:33:41 | |
they were found. Of course, because like the KGB, and the Chinese and | 0:33:42 | 0:33:44 | |
the CIA and MI5, everybody thought he had them and we only discovered | 0:33:45 | 0:33:49 | |
after works that he did not. What about sharing platforms with other | 0:33:50 | 0:33:53 | |
politicians? Tony Blair sharing a platform with the former | 0:33:54 | 0:33:57 | |
Conservative by Minister, and Ed Balls sharing a platform with George | 0:33:58 | 0:34:03 | |
Osborne. Shouldn't Jeremy Corbyn share a platform with Tony Blair in | 0:34:04 | 0:34:07 | |
terms of asking people to remain in the EU? I think Jeremy Corbyn is who | 0:34:08 | 0:34:12 | |
he should share a platform with. But one is the former leader and one is | 0:34:13 | 0:34:16 | |
the current leader, and they are both for Remain. Labour is united, | 0:34:17 | 0:34:23 | |
unlike the Conservatives. Tony Blair was the prime Minister, and did so | 0:34:24 | 0:34:29 | |
many good things on Northern Ireland and public services and other | 0:34:30 | 0:34:32 | |
things. But I think the Jeremy Corbyn has been successful in | 0:34:33 | 0:34:36 | |
putting forward a Labour vision for the European Union, distinct from | 0:34:37 | 0:34:43 | |
the Conservative union. But why are they not sharing a platform? I do | 0:34:44 | 0:34:47 | |
not manage his diary. But do you think that he should? I think that | 0:34:48 | 0:34:52 | |
people are more disposed to believing that Jeremy Corbyn, in | 0:34:53 | 0:34:57 | |
relation to his arguments on the European Union and foreign policy, | 0:34:58 | 0:35:01 | |
and in relation to his trustworthiness, than they at the | 0:35:02 | 0:35:05 | |
former Labour leader, Tony Blair. I loved how you kept a straight face | 0:35:06 | 0:35:08 | |
asking that question. I always keep a straight face. BBC | 0:35:09 | 0:35:13 | |
impartiality at its finest. And you were trying to poke me with | 0:35:14 | 0:35:15 | |
your pen. I often do but not this time. The | 0:35:16 | 0:35:20 | |
Chilcot report is a little more than two weeks away, it will be July the | 0:35:21 | 0:35:25 | |
6th, a Wednesday, so we will be near with our usual 90 minutes including | 0:35:26 | 0:35:26 | |
PMQs. If Margaret Thatcher | 0:35:27 | 0:35:27 | |
was still with us how would she have And I'm not talking about Fred | 0:35:28 | 0:35:38 | |
Wellington who lives at the bottom of my road. | 0:35:39 | 0:35:41 | |
Can anyone really claim to be able to see into the minds of big | 0:35:42 | 0:35:44 | |
historical figures - or is it just a bit | 0:35:45 | 0:35:47 | |
History repeats itself is the old adage but in politics, is it wistful | 0:35:48 | 0:36:00 | |
thinking? Having exhausted the four horsemen of the Apocalypse, both | 0:36:01 | 0:36:03 | |
sides in the referendum are searching further afield for | 0:36:04 | 0:36:06 | |
historic backers to their cause. It helps if you choose someone iconic. | 0:36:07 | 0:36:10 | |
And if they have said the sort of things that help. Mrs Thatcher, who | 0:36:11 | 0:36:15 | |
can forget the common market jumper. Eventually she gave good copy to | 0:36:16 | 0:36:21 | |
Brexit is. We want a commission of executives and we want the Council | 0:36:22 | 0:36:26 | |
of ministers to be the Senate. No, no, no. In the world of Leave, some | 0:36:27 | 0:36:32 | |
draw inspiration from Winston Churchill, who saved Britain from a | 0:36:33 | 0:36:36 | |
Europe united only under occupation. Whilst forgetting that he coined a | 0:36:37 | 0:36:40 | |
phrase. If we are to form a United States of Europe, or whatever name | 0:36:41 | 0:36:49 | |
it may take, we must begin now. War has always been a driver of European | 0:36:50 | 0:36:54 | |
politics. Take the Duke of Wellington, who saved Britain from | 0:36:55 | 0:36:59 | |
the podium's European dream of everyone being French. He has an | 0:37:00 | 0:37:03 | |
image as the sort of chap who would give the EU both barrels but was he? | 0:37:04 | 0:37:07 | |
He would be a remain campaigner. He still believed in peace in Europe | 0:37:08 | 0:37:17 | |
and is in political stability in Europe, and is believed | 0:37:18 | 0:37:21 | |
incorporation in Europe. After all, he was one of the British | 0:37:22 | 0:37:25 | |
representatives at the Congress of Vienna in 1815, and in 1818, and | 0:37:26 | 0:37:33 | |
that the Congress of aroma in 1821. All of those congresses, in a sense, | 0:37:34 | 0:37:39 | |
they were forerunners of European Council meetings or whatever we now | 0:37:40 | 0:37:44 | |
call them. And of course, we hear talk at the moment about the | 0:37:45 | 0:37:48 | |
creation of a European army, but then the soldiers he is in the field | 0:37:49 | 0:37:52 | |
with are hardly all it British. No, it was certainly a European army. | 0:37:53 | 0:38:00 | |
Which he commanded at Waterloo, and which defeated Napoleon. Not | 0:38:01 | 0:38:04 | |
everyone will agree but his ancestors might know best. There in | 0:38:05 | 0:38:09 | |
probably lies the problem of grabbing historical glamour for any | 0:38:10 | 0:38:13 | |
cause. People will ignore the facts and pick the picture that most suits | 0:38:14 | 0:38:19 | |
them and their argument. That was Giles in his front room. | 0:38:20 | 0:38:21 | |
Now to talk about what history might teach us about the big decision | 0:38:22 | 0:38:24 | |
facing the country today we're joined by Simon Schama, | 0:38:25 | 0:38:26 | |
one of 300 historians who wrote a public letter backing Remain. | 0:38:27 | 0:38:29 | |
And Andrew Roberts is one of a separate group | 0:38:30 | 0:38:31 | |
What is the lesson of history, Simon Schama, but we should vote to | 0:38:32 | 0:38:41 | |
Remain? Being British does not mean that you are not European. In my | 0:38:42 | 0:38:47 | |
hand I have the names of the 25 who imposed the Magna Carta, that | 0:38:48 | 0:38:50 | |
talismanic phrase, and they are all French. But they took us over and | 0:38:51 | 0:38:57 | |
tried to suppress us. But they spoke French and they were part of Norman | 0:38:58 | 0:39:01 | |
culture. But they did not come here as immigrants, became as conquerors. | 0:39:02 | 0:39:06 | |
These are people who have had land. You are trying to argue with me, but | 0:39:07 | 0:39:14 | |
if you stop a minute, will agree. Look, there are all sorts of | 0:39:15 | 0:39:17 | |
moments. It would be absurd not to say that there was not his | 0:39:18 | 0:39:20 | |
distinctive political tradition in British history. British history is | 0:39:21 | 0:39:25 | |
about to head for a massive train wreck, gratuitous self destruction. | 0:39:26 | 0:39:29 | |
Scotland will not be British history any more, it will be Anglo Welsh | 0:39:30 | 0:39:35 | |
history. One of the other talismanic moments was the bill of rights, | 0:39:36 | 0:39:41 | |
December of 1689, the foundation of the constitutional monarchy and much | 0:39:42 | 0:39:44 | |
else, the freedom of the press. The bill is not -- the Bill of Rights | 0:39:45 | 0:39:48 | |
was enabled by us joining the coalition against Louis 14th. Not | 0:39:49 | 0:39:55 | |
just because it was a matter of Raison did tat. But because there | 0:39:56 | 0:40:04 | |
was a community of ideals. All I'm saying is that exactly the things | 0:40:05 | 0:40:10 | |
that we are instinctively proud of in the history of Britain has been a | 0:40:11 | 0:40:15 | |
marriage of European instincts and our own. We have always been | 0:40:16 | 0:40:19 | |
intertwined with Europe. Absolutely, but at the same time we have had | 0:40:20 | 0:40:22 | |
separate historical development because of the 22 miles of salt | 0:40:23 | 0:40:26 | |
water between us and the continent. And when we talk about the Bill of | 0:40:27 | 0:40:31 | |
Rights, absolutely, but it was the British oligarchs who brought in the | 0:40:32 | 0:40:37 | |
Dutch king. It was not an invasion from outside. It was an invasion. | 0:40:38 | 0:40:41 | |
There were 20,000 troops occupying London for a year and a half. It was | 0:40:42 | 0:40:45 | |
absolutely an invasion. Because they were invited in by the oligarchs. | 0:40:46 | 0:40:51 | |
They did not want home-grown British tyrants to impose themselves on the | 0:40:52 | 0:40:55 | |
British people. And as a result, you get religious toleration, the rule | 0:40:56 | 0:40:58 | |
of law, equality before the war, these things which happen in Britain | 0:40:59 | 0:41:05 | |
150 years before Louis XIV has his head chopped off. We have, | 0:41:06 | 0:41:11 | |
therefore, a sense of where we do not have revolutions and massacres | 0:41:12 | 0:41:14 | |
and civil wars over the last couple of hundred years here in the way | 0:41:15 | 0:41:18 | |
that they did across Europe. And that has allowed us to have an | 0:41:19 | 0:41:24 | |
evolutionary development of our historical sense rather than a | 0:41:25 | 0:41:26 | |
revolutionary one. But what Andrew is hinting at, and not saying, is | 0:41:27 | 0:41:30 | |
that there is a sense that geographically we are part of the | 0:41:31 | 0:41:35 | |
European continent, but if you look over British history, do you not | 0:41:36 | 0:41:38 | |
accepted that there has been an element of British exceptionalism? | 0:41:39 | 0:41:43 | |
No, I think it is a matter of the liberal tradition which is embodied | 0:41:44 | 0:41:50 | |
and rooted over there. What I was trying to say was that there was a | 0:41:51 | 0:41:55 | |
common identity between the public that shared a tradition of relative | 0:41:56 | 0:42:01 | |
freedom of speech, and that actually established itself across a language | 0:42:02 | 0:42:05 | |
barrier and crossed ostensible national barriers, too. And I think | 0:42:06 | 0:42:09 | |
that has on. I suppose one of the reasons that I am so passionate a | 0:42:10 | 0:42:18 | |
Remainer, is I just think of British heroes, as British as British can | 0:42:19 | 0:42:22 | |
be, like David Maxwell Fyfe, who was a judge of the Nuremberg trial, and | 0:42:23 | 0:42:32 | |
felt it part of being British, to bring part of civil decency to what | 0:42:33 | 0:42:37 | |
became a big European Bill of human rights. But as Lord Kilmuir, David | 0:42:38 | 0:42:44 | |
Maxwell Fyfe opposed Britain joining the European Community in the 50s. | 0:42:45 | 0:42:47 | |
He told Edward Heath that it was going to be leading to a diminishing | 0:42:48 | 0:42:54 | |
of sovereignty. The same man. Does that needs to be a conflict between | 0:42:55 | 0:42:59 | |
wanting to play a full part in the European Union, and retaining a full | 0:43:00 | 0:43:11 | |
British identity? Of course not. The French will retain their identity. | 0:43:12 | 0:43:15 | |
It is not about losing identity. So what do we gain thereby leaving? | 0:43:16 | 0:43:22 | |
What it allows us to do is obtain the ability to do good in Europe, | 0:43:23 | 0:43:29 | |
which we have done. In your letter, you talk about the positive aspects | 0:43:30 | 0:43:32 | |
of Britain in Europe. But the reason we have been able to be so positive | 0:43:33 | 0:43:35 | |
is because we have had the sovereign power to do so. But this is not | 0:43:36 | 0:43:45 | |
being threatened. Among the things that got laughed at by the out | 0:43:46 | 0:43:49 | |
campaign, among the concessions that were exacted from Donald Tusk by | 0:43:50 | 0:43:56 | |
David Cameron, was British exemptions from directives and | 0:43:57 | 0:43:58 | |
statements about an ever closer union. And these are pure words. You | 0:43:59 | 0:44:05 | |
can tell the difference between the verbiage of this. But we retain our | 0:44:06 | 0:44:12 | |
veto to veto the admission of any new country, just like the rest of | 0:44:13 | 0:44:16 | |
the community. So we have strong pillars against the integration of a | 0:44:17 | 0:44:20 | |
superstate. Historically, what we have seen in the European Community | 0:44:21 | 0:44:24 | |
again and again, for over half a century, is the wearing away of | 0:44:25 | 0:44:30 | |
these rights, and we see that with our ability to stop a European army. | 0:44:31 | 0:44:36 | |
You can say that we will be able to stop these things in another | 0:44:37 | 0:44:41 | |
half-century. We know that we will not prevent the centrifugal | 0:44:42 | 0:44:43 | |
disintegration of the European Union and its reform if we leave. If | 0:44:44 | 0:44:48 | |
Europe is such a good thing, why do we not get stuck in more, and play a | 0:44:49 | 0:44:55 | |
bigger role? To do that, we would have to be part of the euro and the | 0:44:56 | 0:44:59 | |
Schengen Agreement. You cannot be semidetached and be at the heart of | 0:45:00 | 0:45:04 | |
the euro. Absolutely. We can have what we need if we manage to stay | 0:45:05 | 0:45:09 | |
in. It is a grand European convention, about reforming | 0:45:10 | 0:45:12 | |
political institutions in Europe. But you know with all the action in | 0:45:13 | 0:45:16 | |
Europe now, it will all take place within the Eurozone. We will not be | 0:45:17 | 0:45:22 | |
part of that. The further fiscal, monetary, political integration, | 0:45:23 | 0:45:25 | |
that will be inside the Eurozone and we will be largely spectators. We're | 0:45:26 | 0:45:29 | |
not talking about fiscal and monetary integration. We are talking | 0:45:30 | 0:45:33 | |
about, for example, I think it would be very good of the Council of | 0:45:34 | 0:45:37 | |
ministers had a share of the proposal of litigation rather than | 0:45:38 | 0:45:42 | |
it being shared by the individual states. The condition is being part | 0:45:43 | 0:45:43 | |
of Europe in the first place. Is When we came into Europe, Ted | 0:45:44 | 0:45:52 | |
Heath said it needed the full-hearted consensus of the | 0:45:53 | 0:45:55 | |
British people. The reason we are not getting into Europe, is we do | 0:45:56 | 0:46:02 | |
not have that. It is going that there isn't full-hearted consent | 0:46:03 | 0:46:05 | |
Full-hearted consent of our children and grandchildren. Age group between | 0:46:06 | 0:46:11 | |
18-24. We oldies are imposing something on our children. Do you | 0:46:12 | 0:46:14 | |
think certain age groups should be allowed to vote (I would love to be | 0:46:15 | 0:46:18 | |
disfranchised. Maybe they will have changed their minds by the time they | 0:46:19 | 0:46:24 | |
get to your age. They don't. You are a historian, not a sear. That's | 0:46:25 | 0:46:32 | |
enough of today's episode of The His interest I Boys. By public demand, | 0:46:33 | 0:46:38 | |
they will return I am I'm not saying when but they will, when we have the | 0:46:39 | 0:46:42 | |
full-hearted support of our viewers. -- the history Boys. | 0:46:43 | 0:46:46 | |
As the referendum draws closer, we have been showcasing | 0:46:47 | 0:46:48 | |
the arguments for Leave and Remain made by members of different | 0:46:49 | 0:46:51 | |
political parties who've been using our trusty soapbox. | 0:46:52 | 0:46:53 | |
Today it's the turn of the Liberal Democrats. | 0:46:54 | 0:46:55 | |
In a moment we'll hear from the party's leader | 0:46:56 | 0:46:57 | |
Tim Farron on why he thinks we should Remain in the EU. | 0:46:58 | 0:47:00 | |
But first, here's the former Lib Dem MP Paul Keetch. | 0:47:01 | 0:47:02 | |
Believe it or not, he's one of a very small number | 0:47:03 | 0:47:05 | |
of Liberal Democrats who thinks we should Leave the EU. | 0:47:06 | 0:47:14 | |
I believe that nations achieve more working together. | 0:47:15 | 0:47:19 | |
Because I am a liberal, democrat and internationalist | 0:47:20 | 0:47:25 | |
Lib Dems believe the power should be held close to the individuals | 0:47:26 | 0:47:29 | |
Free trade has been the Liberal solution for peace and prosperity | 0:47:30 | 0:47:41 | |
for centuries but that principle now ends | 0:47:42 | 0:47:43 | |
We are seeing refugees fleeing the Middle East | 0:47:44 | 0:47:47 | |
and North Africa and the EU has re-erected border controls. | 0:47:48 | 0:47:50 | |
Free movement has become a closed door to the rest of the world. | 0:47:51 | 0:47:57 | |
Moving to the UK should be about the skills and values, | 0:47:58 | 0:47:59 | |
I'm delighted to have been joined by Liberal Democrat supporters | 0:48:00 | 0:48:06 | |
all over the country who are going to vote leave. | 0:48:07 | 0:48:08 | |
Not in spite of being Liberal Democrats, | 0:48:09 | 0:48:10 | |
but because we are Liberal Democrats. | 0:48:11 | 0:48:24 | |
Now as we said he is very much in a minority in a party that's | 0:48:25 | 0:48:34 | |
overwhelmingly for Remain. Now here's the party | 0:48:35 | 0:48:38 | |
leader Tim Farron, with the Liberal Democrat case | 0:48:39 | 0:48:40 | |
for remaining the EU. Well this referendum is about | 0:48:41 | 0:48:48 | |
the character of our country. Do you see Britain as a country that | 0:48:49 | 0:48:51 | |
stands apart from others, glowering across the White Cliffs | 0:48:52 | 0:48:54 | |
of Dover in bad-tempered isolation? Or do you see Britain | 0:48:55 | 0:48:59 | |
as an outward-looking country that works with its neighbours to build | 0:49:00 | 0:49:02 | |
a more prosperous and secure world? Our economy will be stronger | 0:49:03 | 0:49:06 | |
if we take a lead in Europe. Building an economy fit | 0:49:07 | 0:49:09 | |
for the future, not casting Our environment is better-protected | 0:49:10 | 0:49:16 | |
for future generations by working with Europe | 0:49:17 | 0:49:19 | |
to tackle climate change. Our security is boosted by working | 0:49:20 | 0:49:22 | |
with countries who are our friends, share our values and also | 0:49:23 | 0:49:25 | |
face similar threats. I want my children to grow up | 0:49:26 | 0:49:26 | |
in a confident Britain, pursuing prosperity and peace | 0:49:27 | 0:49:33 | |
in cooperation with our neighbours. Not a sullen country, | 0:49:34 | 0:49:36 | |
cut off from the continent. We share democratic | 0:49:37 | 0:49:40 | |
and liberal values. And to discuss this further, | 0:49:41 | 0:49:45 | |
we're joined by Paul Keetch and by the President | 0:49:46 | 0:50:04 | |
of the Liberal Democrats, Who do you represent, Paul Keetch? | 0:50:05 | 0:50:15 | |
Just you? No there are about 600 members of Liberal Leave throughout | 0:50:16 | 0:50:18 | |
the country, probably bigger than any Liberal Democrat constituency. | 0:50:19 | 0:50:22 | |
I've been astonished by the age range, the number of councillors who | 0:50:23 | 0:50:26 | |
have come across to us and students from Oxford University. We are an | 0:50:27 | 0:50:28 | |
interesting group of people. Interesting is a word - an | 0:50:29 | 0:50:32 | |
interesting word you should use. But you are not exactly representative | 0:50:33 | 0:50:34 | |
of the Liberal Democrat party. Because at the core of its beliefs | 0:50:35 | 0:50:38 | |
is the EU being part of it and playing a very major role in it? No, | 0:50:39 | 0:50:43 | |
what the core of Liberalism is about, is about being | 0:50:44 | 0:50:45 | |
internationalist. What worries me about what the EU has become is a | 0:50:46 | 0:50:54 | |
for tress Europe. -- Fortress.s it is note Liberal or democratic. It is | 0:50:55 | 0:50:57 | |
time we accepted that and did something about it. What do you say | 0:50:58 | 0:51:01 | |
An extraordinary skewed view of Europe. It is by no means perfect. | 0:51:02 | 0:51:04 | |
And the Liberal Democrats are amongst the people who say reform | 0:51:05 | 0:51:07 | |
should come. We have fought for reform in the past and we'll | 0:51:08 | 0:51:11 | |
continue to do that but we are much, much stronger N the benefit, | 0:51:12 | 0:51:15 | |
particularly of the single market espouses all the free trade things | 0:51:16 | 0:51:19 | |
that Liberals talked about in the 19th century and doesn't prevent | 0:51:20 | 0:51:22 | |
trade with the rest of the world, as we know. You said For the rows | 0:51:23 | 0:51:27 | |
Europe. Can he not trade with anybody outside of the EU? The EU | 0:51:28 | 0:51:31 | |
hasn't got a trade agreement with India. Can we not trade with other | 0:51:32 | 0:51:35 | |
parts of the world outside the EU. We have not trade with India, unless | 0:51:36 | 0:51:40 | |
the EU let us do that. My point is that we have a society based on what | 0:51:41 | 0:51:49 | |
was a free trade area, has turned into a monster in Brussels that | 0:51:50 | 0:51:52 | |
constrains Britain from trading with the world. When did you want to | 0:51:53 | 0:51:59 | |
leave, or have you always been anti-Europe? I have always been a | 0:52:00 | 0:52:03 | |
eurosceptic. And still a Liberal Democrat It is not any more I leave | 0:52:04 | 0:52:08 | |
a Liberal thing. Liberals believe in devolving power down from the centre | 0:52:09 | 0:52:13 | |
to the communities, to devolved assemblies to mayors and | 0:52:14 | 0:52:17 | |
commissioners. The EU is sucking power into the centre of Brussels | 0:52:18 | 0:52:21 | |
Doesn't he have a point, devolving power down to local people. Let them | 0:52:22 | 0:52:25 | |
decide. What happens in the EU with the Committee of the regions which | 0:52:26 | 0:52:29 | |
nobody has talked about so far in the campaign is our elected | 0:52:30 | 0:52:32 | |
representatives in an area come together to work with Brussels on | 0:52:33 | 0:52:35 | |
the projects we ought to be doing locally. So actually there is more | 0:52:36 | 0:52:40 | |
subsidiarity, their ghastly word for t but involvement at a local level | 0:52:41 | 0:52:44 | |
than people are aware of. It is certainly by elected | 0:52:45 | 0:52:46 | |
representatives. You might argue it is one step away but it is not this | 0:52:47 | 0:52:51 | |
completely remote organisation that has no involvement with people in | 0:52:52 | 0:52:54 | |
their communities. Its certainly true, they do. Let me take the word | 0:52:55 | 0:53:00 | |
Let me take the word, democracy, Liberal Democrats. When I was the MP | 0:53:01 | 0:53:05 | |
for Hereford. Most people knew I was the MP for Hereford. Ask your | 0:53:06 | 0:53:09 | |
viewers do they know who their MEP S I suspect nobody out there knows who | 0:53:10 | 0:53:13 | |
it is. Is that because of the system used to elect them? Well it is | 0:53:14 | 0:53:17 | |
because of the fact that they regard them as being totally unimportant | 0:53:18 | 0:53:21 | |
but yet they cost the British taxpayer three times as much as | 0:53:22 | 0:53:25 | |
Members of Parliament. It is true, people don't know who their MEP is. | 0:53:26 | 0:53:29 | |
I would agree. Most people don't know. To be honest, most people | 0:53:30 | 0:53:33 | |
don't know who their MP is either, in many, many places. The key thing | 0:53:34 | 0:53:37 | |
that we have to accept is that we wanted, as a UK. Democracy, to have | 0:53:38 | 0:53:41 | |
a clear distinction between the role of an MP and other elected people | 0:53:42 | 0:53:46 | |
and this is' one of the reasons why we went for the larger regional list | 0:53:47 | 0:53:50 | |
system for Europe because we wanted to maintain there was a difference. | 0:53:51 | 0:53:53 | |
However, that doesn't mean that we don't vote for those MEPs, it | 0:53:54 | 0:53:56 | |
doesn't mean they report back, it doesn't mean they are not involved | 0:53:57 | 0:53:59 | |
in their local communities, because they are. The turnout at MEP | 0:54:00 | 0:54:04 | |
elections is rather pathetically poor. Actually, the kands dates for | 0:54:05 | 0:54:15 | |
each party isn't selected by -- the candidates for the party isn't | 0:54:16 | 0:54:18 | |
selected by the people, it is by political parties. What we joined in | 0:54:19 | 0:54:23 | |
1972 and voted for in 1975 was effectively a free trade zone. | 0:54:24 | 0:54:29 | |
Rather like NAFDA between America, Mexico and Canada. They retain their | 0:54:30 | 0:54:34 | |
own parliaments and currency. What this has become a is superstate | 0:54:35 | 0:54:38 | |
organisation. You were never in favour of joining the euro, either. | 0:54:39 | 0:54:41 | |
Personally I had my strong doubts about it. Did you fight the party's | 0:54:42 | 0:54:47 | |
policy to join it? I reluctantly accepted T it never went for a vote. | 0:54:48 | 0:54:51 | |
You were keen on monetary union but not political union? I think we have | 0:54:52 | 0:54:55 | |
gone beyond simply monetary union. We have seen the best decision | 0:54:56 | 0:54:58 | |
Britain made was not to join the euro. What can you say to people | 0:54:59 | 0:55:03 | |
like Paul Keetch within our own party. I don't know how many are | 0:55:04 | 0:55:08 | |
voting to leave. What will you say? Think carefully about the | 0:55:09 | 0:55:11 | |
involvements this country has had in Europe and our influence. Many of | 0:55:12 | 0:55:15 | |
the things he said about free trade. The UK has led on the single market | 0:55:16 | 0:55:19 | |
and the UK is a major beneficiary. If we walk away from, that we lose | 0:55:20 | 0:55:24 | |
power to influence it in the future. Thank you both. | 0:55:25 | 0:55:29 | |
Now, the European Football Championships kicks off tomorrow - | 0:55:30 | 0:55:30 | |
JoCo's very excited, she's been dusting off her vuvuzela. | 0:55:31 | 0:55:38 | |
Although what she does in the privacy of her own home is none of | 0:55:39 | 0:55:43 | |
our business! But will the football give us any | 0:55:44 | 0:55:44 | |
clues as to how people vote We can't trust the pollsters any | 0:55:45 | 0:55:47 | |
more, so we thought we'd turn to the world of football | 0:55:48 | 0:55:55 | |
for a referendum prediction. And who better to give us that | 0:55:56 | 0:55:57 | |
prediction than Cass the Psychic Cass lives in the United States, | 0:55:58 | 0:56:00 | |
and has predicted the results of every match in the Euro 2016 | 0:56:01 | 0:56:11 | |
group stages, which she does by choosing between two plates | 0:56:12 | 0:56:14 | |
filled with cat treats. She's predicting that Wales | 0:56:15 | 0:56:17 | |
will beat England next week. So we asked her owner if Cass | 0:56:18 | 0:56:22 | |
could also turn her paw to predicting the result | 0:56:23 | 0:56:31 | |
on the 23rd of June - Cass is for Remain. I think we can | 0:56:32 | 0:57:07 | |
all agree that's a bit of a watershed moment in that referendum | 0:57:08 | 0:57:11 | |
campaign. The plate was closer, I thought to the cat. Shush. | 0:57:12 | 0:57:14 | |
And if you thought that looked a bit iffy - | 0:57:15 | 0:57:16 | |
so did we, but we've been assured by Cass's owners that she was acting | 0:57:17 | 0:57:19 | |
It is a she now, he was a he a minute ago. Obviously had the | 0:57:20 | 0:57:29 | |
operation as well. She was independent. | 0:57:30 | 0:57:31 | |
Although her mystical skills are do far entirely untested, | 0:57:32 | 0:57:34 | |
Now to talk about the possible relationship between the Euros | 0:57:35 | 0:57:38 | |
and politics we're joined by Angus Loughran, who rose to fame | 0:57:39 | 0:57:40 | |
as the statistician 'Statto' on Fantasy Football League. | 0:57:41 | 0:57:43 | |
Did the Prime Minister make a mistake to have the referendum in | 0:57:44 | 0:57:54 | |
the middle of a big football competition? It could go both ways. | 0:57:55 | 0:57:59 | |
I don't feel so. I think the feel-good factor will go England's | 0:58:00 | 0:58:01 | |
way. Remember the referendum is after the group stages. Three wins, | 0:58:02 | 0:58:06 | |
they could be... What if it is #24r50e defeats? I think it could | 0:58:07 | 0:58:10 | |
definitely. It'll have a huge effect if it was three defeats. Didn't | 0:58:11 | 0:58:18 | |
Harold Wilson blame losing the 1970 election on the defeat. They were | 0:58:19 | 0:58:22 | |
the holders and fancied to win it in 1970. You are right, if England were | 0:58:23 | 0:58:26 | |
to bomb out, I think that would have a much more significant effect on | 0:58:27 | 0:58:30 | |
the result of the referendum, than if England do W I expect England to | 0:58:31 | 0:58:35 | |
do well. I think that will be a result. But a defeat will be | 0:58:36 | 0:58:38 | |
colossal, I think. Sorry it has been so short. I blame the cat, myself. | 0:58:39 | 0:58:42 | |
Thank you for joining us. The One O'Clock News is on BBC One. | 0:58:43 | 0:58:46 | |
And I'll be on BBC One for This Week with Michael Portillo, | 0:58:47 | 0:58:54 | |
Liz Kendall, Suzanne Evans, Martin Lewis and Quentin Letts, | 0:58:55 | 0:58:56 | |
plus Michael Moore and Jerry Springer all joining me from 11.45 | 0:58:57 | 0:58:59 | |
It's home to a million people at any one time... | 0:59:00 | 0:59:03 | |
..consumes tens of millions of meals, | 0:59:04 | 0:59:05 | |
burns around ?150 billion worth of jet fuel... | 0:59:06 | 0:59:10 | |
..and handles over three billion pieces of luggage a year. | 0:59:11 | 0:59:13 | |
discover there's more than the air beneath the wings | 0:59:14 | 0:59:20 |