09/06/2016 Daily Politics


09/06/2016

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn are joined by the Andrew Roberts to discuss the day's politics and Conservative MP Sarah Wollaston explains why she has switched sides in the EU debate.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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Just two weeks to go until the EU referendum, and this morning brings

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some big endorsements for Leave and Remain.

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The Remain camp is cock-a-hoop that Conservative MP and GP

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Sarah Woolaston has swapped sides and no longer supports leaving,

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We'll be asking her to explain her sudden change of heart.

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But Leave thinks it's had its own earth-shaking moment

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this morning, as the boss of JCB becomes the first major employer

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He says the UK can stand on its own two feet.

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No love lost between Jeremy Corbyn and Tony Blair, as the former prime

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minister hits back at criticism over his part in the Iraq war

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and claims Mr Corbyn isn't interested in

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Cass the mystic moggy has been predicting the football results,

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and today she'll turn her paw to predicting how we'll vote

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A real scientific sample. It could be a watershed moment in this

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referendum. And from one mystic mog who can

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see into the future - well, apparently - to a man

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who makes his living peering back I speak of course of

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the historian, Andrew Roberts. He's a member of the Historians

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for Britain group, which is backing a vote to leave

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in the EU referendum. So first today, let's talk

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about a bit of a coup for the Remain camp overnight,

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that's the announcement by Conservative MP Sarah Woolaston

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that she's switching her support The reason it's significant

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is because she's known as an independent-minded

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backbencher, she's chair of the Health Select Committee

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and she's a GP - and she says her decision to switch sides centres

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on the 'out' campaign's use of a slogan claiming that leaving

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the EU could free up ?350 million She writes in this morning's Times

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'they have knowingly placed a financial lie at the heart

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of their campaign. It's an empty promise that

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would soon backfire'. She says the arrival of her postal

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vote crystallised the decision, and she now believes

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leaving would harm the NHS. Welcome to the programme. You

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previously said you could not back and David Cameron's threadbare deal.

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That is what you described what he brought back from Brussels. What

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changed? A lot of people like me were very disappointed and would

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have liked to have seen the EU go further, particularly at a time when

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there is a risk that Britain might leave. It is not just centring on

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the Vote Leave campaign, it is about all of the arguments. People have

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been asking, is the NHS going to be better or worse off? Is our public

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health going to be better or worse? And looking at all those arguments,

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it is clear to me that there will be a financial penalty on Brexit. There

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will not be a Brexit bonanza. Is the deal still threadbare or does it not

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matter? The deal still matters, but you have to look at this in its

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entirety. It is not just about the deal. And on both sides there is a

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lot of conspiracy theories doing the rounds. We have to deal with about

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one a day. Let me ask you, so that you can tell us, you were not

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planning to do this all along? No, that is clearly nonsense. It has

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been a growing feeling and the other thing that has crystallised it more,

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my father has been an NHS patient of late and he is 81 now. As a

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teenager, for him the idea of conflict in Europe is not an

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abstract possibility. He was asking me all the way to the operating door

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to change my vote because he feels profoundly that this will have

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ripple effects and is destabilising effect. And I think you have to

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listen to those kind of years. I do one of the other defectors? -- those

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kind of use. I think people have to say for themselves. I was not asking

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you to name them yet. But certainly, in private conversations people have

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told me they are having doubts. It is about research, public health,...

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Lots of things. And you have been tweeting about it. Let's look at

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what you have been tweeting. This one was about Greece. You spoke

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about your father in the war. Why do you support an institution, which,

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in your own words, created a lost generation of young people in Greece

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and Italy? Because of course there are problems with the EU. I do not

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go back from what I said about that. But a lost generation is more than

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just a problem. Young people, that is a systematic failure. It is. And

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the EU, but it must not do is interpret this as a full on

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endorsement of -- if Britain votes to stay. I hope that they will look

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carefully at some of the arguments that have been made throughout this

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campaign and think again about the way they operate. Well, we are doing

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our best on that. Here is another one. You criticised the Remain

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campaign for wasting ?9 billion of taxpayers money on what you describe

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as one-sided propaganda. Do you still think that about the ?9

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million? Yes. And I do not think the public have been well served about

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other side. I have been critical for weeks about this. The public deserve

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better. Indeed. In another Tweet you described the Remain campaign as

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ratcheting up the alarmist rhetoric, taking people for fools. Talking us

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down as little Britain. Why have you joined a campaign that takes us for

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fools, talks us down and has been responsible for alarmist rhetoric. I

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have not joined the official In campaign rather than I have joined

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the official Vote Leave campaign. But I have real concerns about the

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quality of information. I came into politics campaigning for better

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information in public life and we have not seen that from either side.

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But you could actually say that it is true of both sides. You have been

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particularly angered by the claim, on the side of the leave bus,, that

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they say we spend ?350 million a week on our membership. And that has

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been widely discredited, including by us. But the site you are

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supporting has its own problem with fake figures. They claimed that by

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2030 each household will be ?4300 worse off. That is what you're

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saying. Do you agree with that? No. The point is about how it is

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interpreted. It does not mean that each individual household will lose

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that amount of money. That is the trouble, it is the way that the

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figures are presented that can be misleading. But look at the battle

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bus, you have a picture of it behind you, the NHS logo. It is outrageous.

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I understand that. I am trying to work out how having left out of the

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frying pan, you have jumped into the fire. The Treasury Select Committee,

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on this figure, you know that this matters because you are a chair of a

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Treasury Select Committee. It is cheered by a Tory but it is pretty

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independent minded. It says of the ?4300 claim that households would

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all be that much worse off and that that is not what the main Treasury

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analysis found. The average impact on household income would be

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considerably smaller than that. And then it says that neither government

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departments nor the Remain campaign should risk repeating this

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assertion. To persist with this claim would be to misrepresent the

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Treasury's on works. So you have gone from one side that is

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representing a figure falsely to another side misrepresenting a

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figure. Can I just add that I am not joining the official Remain campaign

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any more than I was on the battle bus. But you have let from one

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figure on to another. You do not have to be endorsing the way the

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campaign has operated. I have been very clear for weeks that the public

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deserve better and both sides have been using data in a way that is not

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helpful. But why is the ?4300 figure any better in its own way than the

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350 million? So why have you switched? Because it is not about

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the campaigns. This is about... You said it was about the figure on the

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bus. My decision has been about weighing up the arguments. It is not

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about the figure the bus. But you said on this programme it was. You

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just said it. But the decision, and I'm very irritated by the figure on

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the bus but of course the decision about who you vote is not about a

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figure on a bus, it is about weighing up the argument. And for

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me, listening to the consensus, it is very clear that there would be a

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profound economic shock. Do I field will be a Brexit bonanza or a

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penalty? I think it will be a penalty. And you spoke about the

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NHS, of particular concern because you are a GP. And of course you

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chair a Select Committee. You sign the amendment to the Queen's Speech

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which regretted that a bill to protect the NHS from the

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transatlantic trade agreement was not included in it. And that is part

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of an EU deal with the United States which we will be part of if we stay

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in. Have you had assurances from the government that they will do

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something to protect the NHS from the transatlantic radial? As the

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chair of the health committee, I have been in correspondence with the

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last Parliament, with the EU around this issue. And they have given us

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written assurances that health would be exempted. But you still signed

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the amendment. What is clear to me is that people do not believe it.

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People wanted to be explicit, they do not trust an agreement with the

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EU. I felt that it was better for the government to just be explicit

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and say, let's include it. I think it will have been excluded anyway

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but people did not believe it so why not just make it exclusive? So you

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have had no assurance that the government will go that way? I hope

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that they will. They have said they will and I think they should honour

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that agreement. They should make it explicit because people do not

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believe it and having spent some time over the last Parliament

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showing them an assurance from the EU, the problem is that when people

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do not believe it, they have been using it to a political tool and it

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is best to make it explicit. Andrew Roberts, very important decision on

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June 23. At the heart of the campaign from Remain and Leave, two

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totemic figures which independent observers believe, both, to be

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deeply dodgy. Is that anyway to run a clearly not. But do not believe

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that buses saying we will spend ?350 million entirely on the NHS. But it

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says we would save it and that is not true either. Absolutely. But it

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is a gross figure. When I ask you how much you are paid, you give me

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the gross figure. But that is what you are asking, gross or net? The

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real amount is ?19.1 billion and when you divide it, it is a bit more

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than ?350 million. But then you take away the stuff that is not being

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taken back. It is not discretionary. But ?5 billion of that ?18 billion

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never goes in the first place. It is the abatement. People call it a

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rebate but it is -- it never goes to Brussels in the first place. We send

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?13 billion and we get ?4.5 billion back. And of course that figure

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should have been... You probably need a bigger bus to explain it.

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With regards to what Sarah was saying, I hope that you can tell

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your father, who was busily very brave in the war, after the war in

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the Royal Navy, but bomb disposal is a really brave job, underwater bomb

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disposal is incredibly brave. But you have to remind him that it has

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not been the EU that has kept us safe since 1945, since 1949 it has

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been Nato. We will still stay in Nato if we come out of Britain. If

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anything the EU has been bad for peace and security because you only

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have to look at what happened with 250 million people dying -- 250,000

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people dying in the Yugoslavian civil war to appreciate that. We

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will let you ponder what Mr Robert has says.

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And if you change your mind, come on! -- come back on. How have things

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been with your father? He's making a good recovery and he is delighted

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that I have changed my mind because he believes it absolutely profoundly

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and many of his generation do. Bassong what Roberts says. We thank

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you for coming on to explain your decision. -- pass on what Mr Roberts

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says. So if that was a significant moment

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for the Remain campaign, but there's been a significant

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moment for leave too this morning after the Chairman

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of the manufacturing firm JCB, Anthony Bamford, wrote to his staff

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in the UK explaining why he's in favour of a vote to leave

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the European Union. Lord Bamford - who is a major donor

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to the Conservative Party - says in the letter that he is "very

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confident that we can stand He believes that JCB and the UK can

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prosper just as much outside the EU. He said there is very little to fear

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if we do choose to leave. Let's talk now to our political

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correspondent, Theo Leggett. It is clearly significant. It is a

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leading businessman, operating a company that employs thousands of

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people, 6,500 here in the UK, it exports all around the world. He is

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saying unequivocally - actually, we are as well off outside the European

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Union as we are within it. Now, of course, he is also a donor to the

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Conservative Party. JCB has been applauded by David Cameron himself

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as a totem of British engineering around the world. So it is

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significant he has intervened. Don't forget n recent weeks we have had

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letters written by other companies, such as Airbus and BMW and Siemens,

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all telling their staff that we are better off inside the European

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Union. So, in a sense, you could say this letter redresses some of that

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balance and allows the Vote Leave to regain the ground many people feel

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it has lost in the economic argument. Right, this is the first

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letter written by a leading businessmened a vericateding Brexit

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to his employees. Was it a big secret he was in favour of leaving

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the EU? It was no secret he was eurosceptic and he felt the sky

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would not fall in if we were to leave the European Union. He has

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been saying that for the past year but he has been operating outside of

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the major Leave campaign. He hasn't signed up to the letters written by

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other businessmen saying that leaving the EU is the way we should

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go. He has bided his time and written what reads as a personal

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letter to his own employees. He doesn't crucially tell them how they

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should vote. He merely says - these are my personal views. This is what

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I think, what I would encourage you to think, but you are voting

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according to your own belief. He stresses this vote is most

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important, more important than a general election and the most

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crucial thing is not how they vote but that they do go out and vote.

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Thank you very much. The timing is crucial in the final few weeks.

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It certainly s we'll probably expect more than of as we go on.

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Now John Major is a busy man these days - fresh from mauling

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Boris Johnson in a TV interview at the weekend, this morning he's

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been in Northern Ireland speaking alongside another former PM,

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Both of course were heavily involved in securing

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the peace process there, and they've warned that

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the still-fragile political settlement could be destabilised

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Here they are speaking a short while ago.

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So, I believe it would be an historic mistake to do

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risk of destabilising the complicated and multi-layered

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constitutional settlement that underpins the present stability

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And when we negotiated the Good Friday Agreement,

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it wasn't easier at a whole range of different levels, but one

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vital part of that, which people often overlooked,

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was that it also symbolised the new relationship

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between the Republic of Ireland and the UK, within

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So former Prime Ministers for the price of one there.

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We're joined now by the DUP's deputy leader Nigel Dodds,

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he's backing a vote to leave, and by the Shadow Northern Ireland

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Welcome to you both. Mr Dodds, let me come to you first. Tony Blair

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says - Northern Ireland's stability, it rests on carefully-constructed

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foundations, includes that we are members of the EU and that the

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Republic is a member of the EU as well. Why would you want it shake

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the foundations? Well, can I say, of all the claims that have been made

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about threats to the UK and the constituent parts of the UK if we

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were to leave the EU, I find this claim that Northern Ireland's

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political instability is going to be undermined, one of the most

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depressing and disappointing. Why is that? Well, because I think John

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Major and Tony Blair have made an enormous contribution to the

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Northern Ireland peace process over the years. I mean they carried a

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very heavy burden and, you know it wasn't everything I agreed with that

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they did but they did an enormous amount in moving the Northern

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Ireland political situation forward. I think for them to come and to use

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their authority to try to promote an argument - and there are many

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argument that could be made, but this argument that they are

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promoting about the threats to the political and peace process is one

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that is simply scaremongering and very irresponsible. Well, let's get

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- do you believe that the peace process - I was going to say unravel

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- that may be taking it too far, but would the be in more danger if we

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were to leave the EU? I think the first thing to say - I don't think

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it would unravel. And I think that would be going far too far. I don't

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think that. And I would also say I don't believe we are going to go

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back to the bad old days of the past. But I do think... In or out.

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Absolutely. So what is the case, then? I do think that much of the

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initial Good Friday Agreement and the subsequent agreements, rest on

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the assumption that both Ireland and Britain are within the EU, the

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North-South bodies, the East-West bodies, they all rest on that. I

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think it does race the issue of what will be the cons sequences, not just

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for Northern Ireland but the UK as a whole from -- consequences, from the

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UK leaving the. U. Give me a confidence and we'll put it to Mr

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Dodds. -- give me a consequence. What happens with Scotland. Let us

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not go there. But the border, what happens with the border when it

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becomes a bored between the UK and EU. What are the consequences? Mr

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Dodds, it is an open border at the moment. Would it remain or not? It

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would. The common travel area, the arrangement whereby people can move

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freely between the Irish Republic and UK has been in place since 1923.

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We have had almost 100 years. We have preicated the European Union,

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it'll outlast the European Union if we leave. It is very, very clear,

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even the Irish Ambassador to London said last year t would remain in

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place. So, look, I don't understand why people - they can make all sorts

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of argument on the economic front and all the rest of it, why there is

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this attempt to scaremonger and unsettle people and destabilise the

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situation in Northern Ireland unnecessarily. Vernon talked there

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about the institutions of the Good Friday Agreement, the St Andrew's

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agreement and so on. We have people in the East-West institutions like

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Isle of Man and Channel Islands for whom there is free movement but they

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are not members of the EU. This happens already in the context of

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East-West institutions set up under the Belfast Agreement. I think the

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two former Prime Ministers that are in Northern Ireland today, with the

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greatest respect to them, and having paid tribute to the work they have

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done, should not be going around, engaged in this kind of

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scaremongering. It really devalues their reputation, does no good at

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all and I think we should be concentrating on the really big

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issues which is - how much better it is economically, in terms of getting

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control over our borders, control over our laws, control over our

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money, for the UK as a whole to be outside the European Union. What do

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you say then that the border wouldn't change? It has been around,

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the open border since the early 1920s. Of course there was then a

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big chunk when things grew, we were both inside the EU, as things

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changed. So what with a the risk of the border be? I think the first

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point to make, is first of all when Ireland and Britain were outside

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evident EU, they were both outside and joined at the same time. So they

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have been been in the EU. The common travel arrangement has worked when

0:23:110:23:13

it has been synonymous, the arrangements between Ireland and

0:23:140:23:17

Britain but the danger - Nigel moved on tow trade. What would the

0:23:180:23:20

consequences of being outside of the EU for goods that move backwards and

0:23:210:23:26

forwards. It is not just me saying that or John Major and Tony Blair.

0:23:270:23:29

We have had the Treasury, the Chancellor saying that. We have had

0:23:300:23:33

the Northern Ireland Office itself pointing there could be consequences

0:23:340:23:37

and recently the Home Office writing to the newry Chamber of #1k57

0:23:380:23:48

commerce saying there may beism there chamber of Commerce, saying

0:23:490:23:51

there maybe implications for the trading. Well, if we are outside the

0:23:520:23:56

you single market, which is a possibility that someone on your

0:23:570:24:04

side said, we may not get in with, and Ireland stays inside T there

0:24:050:24:08

could be tariffs, big or small, tariff barriers. You would have to

0:24:090:24:14

have something on the word border. If the event you outlined, and there

0:24:150:24:20

are arguments about about that, but if you were inside that scenario the

0:24:210:24:27

idea of physical barriers along the border is nonsense given electronic

0:24:280:24:31

and digital arrangements. We don't have that arrangement in Sweden and

0:24:320:24:34

Norway, and other countries where there is a border. But for most

0:24:350:24:39

things that are traded Norway is in the single market and Norway has

0:24:400:24:42

free movement of people I'm simply making the point that you do not

0:24:430:24:47

need a hard border in order to have that kind of arrangement. The other

0:24:480:24:50

thing I would say in terms of Northern Ireland and Vernon will

0:24:510:24:53

remember the argument well, when we were urged to join the single

0:24:540:24:58

currency, we were told that for decades the Irish Republic and

0:24:590:25:03

Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK were in parity with the Irish

0:25:040:25:07

pound linked inextricably with the British pound. All dire prediction

0:25:080:25:15

it is would disrupt trade. The Newry Chamber of Commerce saying it would

0:25:160:25:18

wipe us out. Imagine having to change the currency at the Northern

0:25:190:25:21

Ireland border. None of this happened. Well let's hear Mr Coaker.

0:25:220:25:28

The UK Government took the decision it woovent be in the interests of

0:25:290:25:31

Northern Ireland or any other part of the UK to join the euro. And that

0:25:320:25:39

was proved to be... Deand people -- and people are saying if we leave

0:25:400:25:42

there will be dire consequences. You make assumptions You can go on

0:25:430:25:46

records of last time. You take a balanced view on the evidence that

0:25:470:25:49

comes before you. As I say, it is not only myself. It's been the

0:25:500:25:54

Chancellor, the Home Office, as well as the Northern Ireland lpts It is

0:25:550:25:57

Tony Blair who is in Northern Ireland today, and your former

0:25:580:26:00

leader, the same man telling us about joining the single currency.

0:26:010:26:03

He was held back by Gordon Brown, thankfully at the end of the day. He

0:26:040:26:07

wanted to join the European currency. He is now telling people

0:26:080:26:10

in Northern Ireland to stay in the EU in terms of safety and all the

0:26:110:26:14

rest of it. I don't think we'll take any lessons... Well I think they

0:26:150:26:17

will from Tony Blair. They may take lessons from Andrew Roberts. As an

0:26:180:26:22

his store yob, you follow and know a historian, you follow and know a

0:26:230:26:25

will the about Irish history. What is your view? My view is that the

0:26:260:26:28

southern Irish have such enormous trade connections with Northern

0:26:290:26:31

Ireland, that they would not want to cause any trouble at all, whatever

0:26:320:26:36

Brussels wanted. I'm thrilled as an outer that Tony Blair is for the in

0:26:370:26:39

campaign, he is the most unpopular politician. Not in Northern Ireland.

0:26:400:26:44

And also, John Major, whenever he talks about Europe, he reminds us of

0:26:450:26:52

the 4 billion he we lost in the ERM debacle and Maastricht. So keep

0:26:530:26:57

going guys. A crystal ball. I'm told there is a clear half majority - old

0:26:580:27:02

fashioned terms - a clear majority in the protestant community for

0:27:030:27:06

leave but an overwhelming majority in the Catholic community for stay S

0:27:070:27:10

that broadly right? I prefer to talk about unionists... You know what I

0:27:110:27:15

mean. There are many unionists within the Catholics. I think most

0:27:160:27:22

unionists will broadly speaking be for Leave and overwhelming in the

0:27:230:27:26

nationalists, for stay, because Dublin is saying we should stay. But

0:27:270:27:29

we are gaining all the time. We shall see. Thank you both.

0:27:300:27:36

Mary McAleese, the President was talking about it the other evening.

0:27:370:27:39

Well, we've been talking about Tony Blair the statesman

0:27:400:27:41

there, and in general in interviews these days the former Labour leader

0:27:420:27:44

tries to steer clear of talking too much about domestic politics.

0:27:450:27:47

In a TV interview yesterday he launched his fiercest attack yet

0:27:480:27:50

on current Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn.

0:27:510:27:52

You know, I'm accused of being a war criminal

0:27:530:27:58

for removing Saddam Hussein, who, by the way, was a war criminal,

0:27:590:28:01

and yet, you know, Jeremy is seen as a progressive icon as we stand

0:28:020:28:05

by and watch the people of Syria barrel bombed,

0:28:060:28:11

beaten and starved into submission and do nothing.

0:28:120:28:13

The issue for me, is - what is the best way that you take

0:28:140:28:18

the traditional values of the left and apply them to the modern world?

0:28:190:28:21

Joining us to discuss this is the Labour MP Richard Burgon,

0:28:220:28:30

who nominated Jeremy Corbyn for the leadership.

0:28:310:28:34

Welcome back to the Daily Politics. Tony Blair has accused Jeremy Corbyn

0:28:350:28:42

of being the guy with a placard, representing the politics of

0:28:430:28:44

protest, unlike him, who he says represents the politics of power.

0:28:450:28:49

What do you say? I think it's nonsensical to say that Jeremy

0:28:500:28:55

Corbyn's leadership is the leadership of political protest. If

0:28:560:28:58

you look at what the Labour opposition has achieved under Jeremy

0:28:590:29:02

Corbyn's leadership. We have forced through active meaningful opposition

0:29:030:29:06

U-Turn on a whole host of things, for example, u turns on tax credit

0:29:070:29:09

cuts which would have cost 3 million families across the UK ?1,000 a

0:29:100:29:13

year. Was that not with the help of Tory rebels? It was a U-Turn, also,

0:29:140:29:21

on Sunday trading, a U-Turn on a tax, the money received on people

0:29:220:29:26

living with disabilities and a U-Turn on more Draconian elements of

0:29:270:29:31

the trade union bi. That's real politics, not protest politics. What

0:29:320:29:35

are the tough Dell significance that is Jeremy Corbyn has taken as

0:29:360:29:39

leader, which weren't generally in line with what he has protested

0:29:400:29:43

about in the past? Well one example was to give a free vote to Labour

0:29:440:29:47

MPs on the question of whether or not to support David Cameron's

0:29:480:29:50

bombing of Syria. Was that a tough decision on leadership or did that

0:29:510:29:56

exactly explicitly underline what Tony Blair has said, and shown no

0:29:570:30:00

leadership It was the right thing to do and Jeremy Corbyn by persuasion,

0:30:010:30:04

not by forcing people, persuaded the vast majority of Labour MPs to agree

0:30:050:30:08

with him that bombing Syria wasn't in the interests of the Syrian

0:30:090:30:12

people. But who made the round-up speech on behalf of the Labour Party

0:30:130:30:17

and the Opposition, Hilary Benn who contradicted his position st. And 66

0:30:180:30:22

Labour MPs were persuaded by the case it back Cameron's plan to bomb

0:30:230:30:25

Syria the plan that Tony Blair backed and four times that number of

0:30:260:30:29

Labour MPs were persuaded by Jeremy Corbyn's leadership on that issue.

0:30:300:30:34

And on Trident? On Trident Jeremy Corbyn has always been clear and

0:30:350:30:37

consistent on that. I think we do need to take... What leadership has

0:30:380:30:42

he shown. I think we need to take on Tony Blair's comments, the reason

0:30:430:30:46

being one of the great lessons of New Labour, one of the great truths

0:30:470:30:49

that Tony Blair and others spoke about, was the need to always remain

0:30:500:30:53

with the modern world and update and adapt to current situations and just

0:30:540:30:58

as what worked in 1974, wouldn't work in 1997, what worked in 1997,

0:30:590:31:02

doesn't work in 2016 whatsoever. So you think he is out of touch and he

0:31:030:31:06

is in a that's how past and gone? I think Tony Blair was shown to be

0:31:070:31:20

out of touch in his calls to back the invasion of Syria. I think what

0:31:210:31:23

has happened to him is a real shame. He was clearly one of the most able

0:31:240:31:30

political communicators in his or any generation. The sad truth is

0:31:310:31:34

that through the disastrous, immoral war in Iraq and through his chasing

0:31:350:31:38

of money around the globe since he retired as Prime Minister, he has

0:31:390:31:41

lost the trust and respect of lots of British people who had trust and

0:31:420:31:46

respect for him previously. But he did win an election after the Iraq

0:31:470:31:51

war. Labour won three elections with him. And if we ask the people out

0:31:520:31:59

there what they think, many people see him as symbolic of the loss of

0:32:000:32:04

trust in the political class. And on that basis, you agree that the war

0:32:050:32:08

in Iraq was illegal? I believe it was immoral and illegal and we will

0:32:090:32:12

see what the Chilcot enquiry concludes. And the logic of that,

0:32:130:32:16

you feel that Tony Blair should face some charges? I believe that the war

0:32:170:32:22

in Iraq was immoral and illegal. I will wait to see what happens in two

0:32:230:32:27

weeks. And if the Chilcot enquiry says that it was an illegal war, and

0:32:280:32:32

is therefore illegal action is required, then it will be required.

0:32:330:32:37

So you support the idea that he should face charges? I wait to see

0:32:380:32:41

what the enquiry says but in my belief, it is an immoral and illegal

0:32:420:32:47

war. If you take that logic, then surely he would face charges? Of

0:32:480:32:51

course he would. The idea of putting a former panellist Minster on war

0:32:520:32:54

crime charges is a warrant, not least because of the House of

0:32:550:32:58

Commons, they voted for that war which means that it was not illegal.

0:32:590:33:03

If the house of commons and the House of Lords supports something,

0:33:040:33:07

it is legal. And the question of immorality, they were over showing a

0:33:080:33:11

-- overthrowing a fascist dictator, which is never immoral. To take

0:33:120:33:22

Andrew Roberts point, David Cameron and most of the Cabinet supported

0:33:230:33:27

the war of Iraq -- in Iraq. That was a different cabinet and a different

0:33:280:33:30

leadership. Andrew at the time was on record as saying that he looked

0:33:310:33:34

forward to be weapons of mass destruction being found. As we know,

0:33:350:33:41

they were found. Of course, because like the KGB, and the Chinese and

0:33:420:33:44

the CIA and MI5, everybody thought he had them and we only discovered

0:33:450:33:49

after works that he did not. What about sharing platforms with other

0:33:500:33:53

politicians? Tony Blair sharing a platform with the former

0:33:540:33:57

Conservative by Minister, and Ed Balls sharing a platform with George

0:33:580:34:03

Osborne. Shouldn't Jeremy Corbyn share a platform with Tony Blair in

0:34:040:34:07

terms of asking people to remain in the EU? I think Jeremy Corbyn is who

0:34:080:34:12

he should share a platform with. But one is the former leader and one is

0:34:130:34:16

the current leader, and they are both for Remain. Labour is united,

0:34:170:34:23

unlike the Conservatives. Tony Blair was the prime Minister, and did so

0:34:240:34:29

many good things on Northern Ireland and public services and other

0:34:300:34:32

things. But I think the Jeremy Corbyn has been successful in

0:34:330:34:36

putting forward a Labour vision for the European Union, distinct from

0:34:370:34:43

the Conservative union. But why are they not sharing a platform? I do

0:34:440:34:47

not manage his diary. But do you think that he should? I think that

0:34:480:34:52

people are more disposed to believing that Jeremy Corbyn, in

0:34:530:34:57

relation to his arguments on the European Union and foreign policy,

0:34:580:35:01

and in relation to his trustworthiness, than they at the

0:35:020:35:05

former Labour leader, Tony Blair. I loved how you kept a straight face

0:35:060:35:08

asking that question. I always keep a straight face. BBC

0:35:090:35:13

impartiality at its finest. And you were trying to poke me with

0:35:140:35:15

your pen. I often do but not this time. The

0:35:160:35:20

Chilcot report is a little more than two weeks away, it will be July the

0:35:210:35:25

6th, a Wednesday, so we will be near with our usual 90 minutes including

0:35:260:35:26

PMQs. If Margaret Thatcher

0:35:270:35:27

was still with us how would she have And I'm not talking about Fred

0:35:280:35:38

Wellington who lives at the bottom of my road.

0:35:390:35:41

Can anyone really claim to be able to see into the minds of big

0:35:420:35:44

historical figures - or is it just a bit

0:35:450:35:47

History repeats itself is the old adage but in politics, is it wistful

0:35:480:36:00

thinking? Having exhausted the four horsemen of the Apocalypse, both

0:36:010:36:03

sides in the referendum are searching further afield for

0:36:040:36:06

historic backers to their cause. It helps if you choose someone iconic.

0:36:070:36:10

And if they have said the sort of things that help. Mrs Thatcher, who

0:36:110:36:15

can forget the common market jumper. Eventually she gave good copy to

0:36:160:36:21

Brexit is. We want a commission of executives and we want the Council

0:36:220:36:26

of ministers to be the Senate. No, no, no. In the world of Leave, some

0:36:270:36:32

draw inspiration from Winston Churchill, who saved Britain from a

0:36:330:36:36

Europe united only under occupation. Whilst forgetting that he coined a

0:36:370:36:40

phrase. If we are to form a United States of Europe, or whatever name

0:36:410:36:49

it may take, we must begin now. War has always been a driver of European

0:36:500:36:54

politics. Take the Duke of Wellington, who saved Britain from

0:36:550:36:59

the podium's European dream of everyone being French. He has an

0:37:000:37:03

image as the sort of chap who would give the EU both barrels but was he?

0:37:040:37:07

He would be a remain campaigner. He still believed in peace in Europe

0:37:080:37:17

and is in political stability in Europe, and is believed

0:37:180:37:21

incorporation in Europe. After all, he was one of the British

0:37:220:37:25

representatives at the Congress of Vienna in 1815, and in 1818, and

0:37:260:37:33

that the Congress of aroma in 1821. All of those congresses, in a sense,

0:37:340:37:39

they were forerunners of European Council meetings or whatever we now

0:37:400:37:44

call them. And of course, we hear talk at the moment about the

0:37:450:37:48

creation of a European army, but then the soldiers he is in the field

0:37:490:37:52

with are hardly all it British. No, it was certainly a European army.

0:37:530:38:00

Which he commanded at Waterloo, and which defeated Napoleon. Not

0:38:010:38:04

everyone will agree but his ancestors might know best. There in

0:38:050:38:09

probably lies the problem of grabbing historical glamour for any

0:38:100:38:13

cause. People will ignore the facts and pick the picture that most suits

0:38:140:38:19

them and their argument. That was Giles in his front room.

0:38:200:38:21

Now to talk about what history might teach us about the big decision

0:38:220:38:24

facing the country today we're joined by Simon Schama,

0:38:250:38:26

one of 300 historians who wrote a public letter backing Remain.

0:38:270:38:29

And Andrew Roberts is one of a separate group

0:38:300:38:31

What is the lesson of history, Simon Schama, but we should vote to

0:38:320:38:41

Remain? Being British does not mean that you are not European. In my

0:38:420:38:47

hand I have the names of the 25 who imposed the Magna Carta, that

0:38:480:38:50

talismanic phrase, and they are all French. But they took us over and

0:38:510:38:57

tried to suppress us. But they spoke French and they were part of Norman

0:38:580:39:01

culture. But they did not come here as immigrants, became as conquerors.

0:39:020:39:06

These are people who have had land. You are trying to argue with me, but

0:39:070:39:14

if you stop a minute, will agree. Look, there are all sorts of

0:39:150:39:17

moments. It would be absurd not to say that there was not his

0:39:180:39:20

distinctive political tradition in British history. British history is

0:39:210:39:25

about to head for a massive train wreck, gratuitous self destruction.

0:39:260:39:29

Scotland will not be British history any more, it will be Anglo Welsh

0:39:300:39:35

history. One of the other talismanic moments was the bill of rights,

0:39:360:39:41

December of 1689, the foundation of the constitutional monarchy and much

0:39:420:39:44

else, the freedom of the press. The bill is not -- the Bill of Rights

0:39:450:39:48

was enabled by us joining the coalition against Louis 14th. Not

0:39:490:39:55

just because it was a matter of Raison did tat. But because there

0:39:560:40:04

was a community of ideals. All I'm saying is that exactly the things

0:40:050:40:10

that we are instinctively proud of in the history of Britain has been a

0:40:110:40:15

marriage of European instincts and our own. We have always been

0:40:160:40:19

intertwined with Europe. Absolutely, but at the same time we have had

0:40:200:40:22

separate historical development because of the 22 miles of salt

0:40:230:40:26

water between us and the continent. And when we talk about the Bill of

0:40:270:40:31

Rights, absolutely, but it was the British oligarchs who brought in the

0:40:320:40:37

Dutch king. It was not an invasion from outside. It was an invasion.

0:40:380:40:41

There were 20,000 troops occupying London for a year and a half. It was

0:40:420:40:45

absolutely an invasion. Because they were invited in by the oligarchs.

0:40:460:40:51

They did not want home-grown British tyrants to impose themselves on the

0:40:520:40:55

British people. And as a result, you get religious toleration, the rule

0:40:560:40:58

of law, equality before the war, these things which happen in Britain

0:40:590:41:05

150 years before Louis XIV has his head chopped off. We have,

0:41:060:41:11

therefore, a sense of where we do not have revolutions and massacres

0:41:120:41:14

and civil wars over the last couple of hundred years here in the way

0:41:150:41:18

that they did across Europe. And that has allowed us to have an

0:41:190:41:24

evolutionary development of our historical sense rather than a

0:41:250:41:26

revolutionary one. But what Andrew is hinting at, and not saying, is

0:41:270:41:30

that there is a sense that geographically we are part of the

0:41:310:41:35

European continent, but if you look over British history, do you not

0:41:360:41:38

accepted that there has been an element of British exceptionalism?

0:41:390:41:43

No, I think it is a matter of the liberal tradition which is embodied

0:41:440:41:50

and rooted over there. What I was trying to say was that there was a

0:41:510:41:55

common identity between the public that shared a tradition of relative

0:41:560:42:01

freedom of speech, and that actually established itself across a language

0:42:020:42:05

barrier and crossed ostensible national barriers, too. And I think

0:42:060:42:09

that has on. I suppose one of the reasons that I am so passionate a

0:42:100:42:18

Remainer, is I just think of British heroes, as British as British can

0:42:190:42:22

be, like David Maxwell Fyfe, who was a judge of the Nuremberg trial, and

0:42:230:42:32

felt it part of being British, to bring part of civil decency to what

0:42:330:42:37

became a big European Bill of human rights. But as Lord Kilmuir, David

0:42:380:42:44

Maxwell Fyfe opposed Britain joining the European Community in the 50s.

0:42:450:42:47

He told Edward Heath that it was going to be leading to a diminishing

0:42:480:42:54

of sovereignty. The same man. Does that needs to be a conflict between

0:42:550:42:59

wanting to play a full part in the European Union, and retaining a full

0:43:000:43:11

British identity? Of course not. The French will retain their identity.

0:43:120:43:15

It is not about losing identity. So what do we gain thereby leaving?

0:43:160:43:22

What it allows us to do is obtain the ability to do good in Europe,

0:43:230:43:29

which we have done. In your letter, you talk about the positive aspects

0:43:300:43:32

of Britain in Europe. But the reason we have been able to be so positive

0:43:330:43:35

is because we have had the sovereign power to do so. But this is not

0:43:360:43:45

being threatened. Among the things that got laughed at by the out

0:43:460:43:49

campaign, among the concessions that were exacted from Donald Tusk by

0:43:500:43:56

David Cameron, was British exemptions from directives and

0:43:570:43:58

statements about an ever closer union. And these are pure words. You

0:43:590:44:05

can tell the difference between the verbiage of this. But we retain our

0:44:060:44:12

veto to veto the admission of any new country, just like the rest of

0:44:130:44:16

the community. So we have strong pillars against the integration of a

0:44:170:44:20

superstate. Historically, what we have seen in the European Community

0:44:210:44:24

again and again, for over half a century, is the wearing away of

0:44:250:44:30

these rights, and we see that with our ability to stop a European army.

0:44:310:44:36

You can say that we will be able to stop these things in another

0:44:370:44:41

half-century. We know that we will not prevent the centrifugal

0:44:420:44:43

disintegration of the European Union and its reform if we leave. If

0:44:440:44:48

Europe is such a good thing, why do we not get stuck in more, and play a

0:44:490:44:55

bigger role? To do that, we would have to be part of the euro and the

0:44:560:44:59

Schengen Agreement. You cannot be semidetached and be at the heart of

0:45:000:45:04

the euro. Absolutely. We can have what we need if we manage to stay

0:45:050:45:09

in. It is a grand European convention, about reforming

0:45:100:45:12

political institutions in Europe. But you know with all the action in

0:45:130:45:16

Europe now, it will all take place within the Eurozone. We will not be

0:45:170:45:22

part of that. The further fiscal, monetary, political integration,

0:45:230:45:25

that will be inside the Eurozone and we will be largely spectators. We're

0:45:260:45:29

not talking about fiscal and monetary integration. We are talking

0:45:300:45:33

about, for example, I think it would be very good of the Council of

0:45:340:45:37

ministers had a share of the proposal of litigation rather than

0:45:380:45:42

it being shared by the individual states. The condition is being part

0:45:430:45:43

of Europe in the first place. Is When we came into Europe, Ted

0:45:440:45:52

Heath said it needed the full-hearted consensus of the

0:45:530:45:55

British people. The reason we are not getting into Europe, is we do

0:45:560:46:02

not have that. It is going that there isn't full-hearted consent

0:46:030:46:05

Full-hearted consent of our children and grandchildren. Age group between

0:46:060:46:11

18-24. We oldies are imposing something on our children. Do you

0:46:120:46:14

think certain age groups should be allowed to vote (I would love to be

0:46:150:46:18

disfranchised. Maybe they will have changed their minds by the time they

0:46:190:46:24

get to your age. They don't. You are a historian, not a sear. That's

0:46:250:46:32

enough of today's episode of The His interest I Boys. By public demand,

0:46:330:46:38

they will return I am I'm not saying when but they will, when we have the

0:46:390:46:42

full-hearted support of our viewers. -- the history Boys.

0:46:430:46:46

As the referendum draws closer, we have been showcasing

0:46:470:46:48

the arguments for Leave and Remain made by members of different

0:46:490:46:51

political parties who've been using our trusty soapbox.

0:46:520:46:53

Today it's the turn of the Liberal Democrats.

0:46:540:46:55

In a moment we'll hear from the party's leader

0:46:560:46:57

Tim Farron on why he thinks we should Remain in the EU.

0:46:580:47:00

But first, here's the former Lib Dem MP Paul Keetch.

0:47:010:47:02

Believe it or not, he's one of a very small number

0:47:030:47:05

of Liberal Democrats who thinks we should Leave the EU.

0:47:060:47:14

I believe that nations achieve more working together.

0:47:150:47:19

Because I am a liberal, democrat and internationalist

0:47:200:47:25

Lib Dems believe the power should be held close to the individuals

0:47:260:47:29

Free trade has been the Liberal solution for peace and prosperity

0:47:300:47:41

for centuries but that principle now ends

0:47:420:47:43

We are seeing refugees fleeing the Middle East

0:47:440:47:47

and North Africa and the EU has re-erected border controls.

0:47:480:47:50

Free movement has become a closed door to the rest of the world.

0:47:510:47:57

Moving to the UK should be about the skills and values,

0:47:580:47:59

I'm delighted to have been joined by Liberal Democrat supporters

0:48:000:48:06

all over the country who are going to vote leave.

0:48:070:48:08

Not in spite of being Liberal Democrats,

0:48:090:48:10

but because we are Liberal Democrats.

0:48:110:48:24

Now as we said he is very much in a minority in a party that's

0:48:250:48:34

overwhelmingly for Remain. Now here's the party

0:48:350:48:38

leader Tim Farron, with the Liberal Democrat case

0:48:390:48:40

for remaining the EU. Well this referendum is about

0:48:410:48:48

the character of our country. Do you see Britain as a country that

0:48:490:48:51

stands apart from others, glowering across the White Cliffs

0:48:520:48:54

of Dover in bad-tempered isolation? Or do you see Britain

0:48:550:48:59

as an outward-looking country that works with its neighbours to build

0:49:000:49:02

a more prosperous and secure world? Our economy will be stronger

0:49:030:49:06

if we take a lead in Europe. Building an economy fit

0:49:070:49:09

for the future, not casting Our environment is better-protected

0:49:100:49:16

for future generations by working with Europe

0:49:170:49:19

to tackle climate change. Our security is boosted by working

0:49:200:49:22

with countries who are our friends, share our values and also

0:49:230:49:25

face similar threats. I want my children to grow up

0:49:260:49:26

in a confident Britain, pursuing prosperity and peace

0:49:270:49:33

in cooperation with our neighbours. Not a sullen country,

0:49:340:49:36

cut off from the continent. We share democratic

0:49:370:49:40

and liberal values. And to discuss this further,

0:49:410:49:45

we're joined by Paul Keetch and by the President

0:49:460:50:04

of the Liberal Democrats, Who do you represent, Paul Keetch?

0:50:050:50:15

Just you? No there are about 600 members of Liberal Leave throughout

0:50:160:50:18

the country, probably bigger than any Liberal Democrat constituency.

0:50:190:50:22

I've been astonished by the age range, the number of councillors who

0:50:230:50:26

have come across to us and students from Oxford University. We are an

0:50:270:50:28

interesting group of people. Interesting is a word - an

0:50:290:50:32

interesting word you should use. But you are not exactly representative

0:50:330:50:34

of the Liberal Democrat party. Because at the core of its beliefs

0:50:350:50:38

is the EU being part of it and playing a very major role in it? No,

0:50:390:50:43

what the core of Liberalism is about, is about being

0:50:440:50:45

internationalist. What worries me about what the EU has become is a

0:50:460:50:54

for tress Europe. -- Fortress.s it is note Liberal or democratic. It is

0:50:550:50:57

time we accepted that and did something about it. What do you say

0:50:580:51:01

An extraordinary skewed view of Europe. It is by no means perfect.

0:51:020:51:04

And the Liberal Democrats are amongst the people who say reform

0:51:050:51:07

should come. We have fought for reform in the past and we'll

0:51:080:51:11

continue to do that but we are much, much stronger N the benefit,

0:51:120:51:15

particularly of the single market espouses all the free trade things

0:51:160:51:19

that Liberals talked about in the 19th century and doesn't prevent

0:51:200:51:22

trade with the rest of the world, as we know. You said For the rows

0:51:230:51:27

Europe. Can he not trade with anybody outside of the EU? The EU

0:51:280:51:31

hasn't got a trade agreement with India. Can we not trade with other

0:51:320:51:35

parts of the world outside the EU. We have not trade with India, unless

0:51:360:51:40

the EU let us do that. My point is that we have a society based on what

0:51:410:51:49

was a free trade area, has turned into a monster in Brussels that

0:51:500:51:52

constrains Britain from trading with the world. When did you want to

0:51:530:51:59

leave, or have you always been anti-Europe? I have always been a

0:52:000:52:03

eurosceptic. And still a Liberal Democrat It is not any more I leave

0:52:040:52:08

a Liberal thing. Liberals believe in devolving power down from the centre

0:52:090:52:13

to the communities, to devolved assemblies to mayors and

0:52:140:52:17

commissioners. The EU is sucking power into the centre of Brussels

0:52:180:52:21

Doesn't he have a point, devolving power down to local people. Let them

0:52:220:52:25

decide. What happens in the EU with the Committee of the regions which

0:52:260:52:29

nobody has talked about so far in the campaign is our elected

0:52:300:52:32

representatives in an area come together to work with Brussels on

0:52:330:52:35

the projects we ought to be doing locally. So actually there is more

0:52:360:52:40

subsidiarity, their ghastly word for t but involvement at a local level

0:52:410:52:44

than people are aware of. It is certainly by elected

0:52:450:52:46

representatives. You might argue it is one step away but it is not this

0:52:470:52:51

completely remote organisation that has no involvement with people in

0:52:520:52:54

their communities. Its certainly true, they do. Let me take the word

0:52:550:53:00

Let me take the word, democracy, Liberal Democrats. When I was the MP

0:53:010:53:05

for Hereford. Most people knew I was the MP for Hereford. Ask your

0:53:060:53:09

viewers do they know who their MEP S I suspect nobody out there knows who

0:53:100:53:13

it is. Is that because of the system used to elect them? Well it is

0:53:140:53:17

because of the fact that they regard them as being totally unimportant

0:53:180:53:21

but yet they cost the British taxpayer three times as much as

0:53:220:53:25

Members of Parliament. It is true, people don't know who their MEP is.

0:53:260:53:29

I would agree. Most people don't know. To be honest, most people

0:53:300:53:33

don't know who their MP is either, in many, many places. The key thing

0:53:340:53:37

that we have to accept is that we wanted, as a UK. Democracy, to have

0:53:380:53:41

a clear distinction between the role of an MP and other elected people

0:53:420:53:46

and this is' one of the reasons why we went for the larger regional list

0:53:470:53:50

system for Europe because we wanted to maintain there was a difference.

0:53:510:53:53

However, that doesn't mean that we don't vote for those MEPs, it

0:53:540:53:56

doesn't mean they report back, it doesn't mean they are not involved

0:53:570:53:59

in their local communities, because they are. The turnout at MEP

0:54:000:54:04

elections is rather pathetically poor. Actually, the kands dates for

0:54:050:54:15

each party isn't selected by -- the candidates for the party isn't

0:54:160:54:18

selected by the people, it is by political parties. What we joined in

0:54:190:54:23

1972 and voted for in 1975 was effectively a free trade zone.

0:54:240:54:29

Rather like NAFDA between America, Mexico and Canada. They retain their

0:54:300:54:34

own parliaments and currency. What this has become a is superstate

0:54:350:54:38

organisation. You were never in favour of joining the euro, either.

0:54:390:54:41

Personally I had my strong doubts about it. Did you fight the party's

0:54:420:54:47

policy to join it? I reluctantly accepted T it never went for a vote.

0:54:480:54:51

You were keen on monetary union but not political union? I think we have

0:54:520:54:55

gone beyond simply monetary union. We have seen the best decision

0:54:560:54:58

Britain made was not to join the euro. What can you say to people

0:54:590:55:03

like Paul Keetch within our own party. I don't know how many are

0:55:040:55:08

voting to leave. What will you say? Think carefully about the

0:55:090:55:11

involvements this country has had in Europe and our influence. Many of

0:55:120:55:15

the things he said about free trade. The UK has led on the single market

0:55:160:55:19

and the UK is a major beneficiary. If we walk away from, that we lose

0:55:200:55:24

power to influence it in the future. Thank you both.

0:55:250:55:29

Now, the European Football Championships kicks off tomorrow -

0:55:300:55:30

JoCo's very excited, she's been dusting off her vuvuzela.

0:55:310:55:38

Although what she does in the privacy of her own home is none of

0:55:390:55:43

our business! But will the football give us any

0:55:440:55:44

clues as to how people vote We can't trust the pollsters any

0:55:450:55:47

more, so we thought we'd turn to the world of football

0:55:480:55:55

for a referendum prediction. And who better to give us that

0:55:560:55:57

prediction than Cass the Psychic Cass lives in the United States,

0:55:580:56:00

and has predicted the results of every match in the Euro 2016

0:56:010:56:11

group stages, which she does by choosing between two plates

0:56:120:56:14

filled with cat treats. She's predicting that Wales

0:56:150:56:17

will beat England next week. So we asked her owner if Cass

0:56:180:56:22

could also turn her paw to predicting the result

0:56:230:56:31

on the 23rd of June - Cass is for Remain. I think we can

0:56:320:57:07

all agree that's a bit of a watershed moment in that referendum

0:57:080:57:11

campaign. The plate was closer, I thought to the cat. Shush.

0:57:120:57:14

And if you thought that looked a bit iffy -

0:57:150:57:16

so did we, but we've been assured by Cass's owners that she was acting

0:57:170:57:19

It is a she now, he was a he a minute ago. Obviously had the

0:57:200:57:29

operation as well. She was independent.

0:57:300:57:31

Although her mystical skills are do far entirely untested,

0:57:320:57:34

Now to talk about the possible relationship between the Euros

0:57:350:57:38

and politics we're joined by Angus Loughran, who rose to fame

0:57:390:57:40

as the statistician 'Statto' on Fantasy Football League.

0:57:410:57:43

Did the Prime Minister make a mistake to have the referendum in

0:57:440:57:54

the middle of a big football competition? It could go both ways.

0:57:550:57:59

I don't feel so. I think the feel-good factor will go England's

0:58:000:58:01

way. Remember the referendum is after the group stages. Three wins,

0:58:020:58:06

they could be... What if it is #24r50e defeats? I think it could

0:58:070:58:10

definitely. It'll have a huge effect if it was three defeats. Didn't

0:58:110:58:18

Harold Wilson blame losing the 1970 election on the defeat. They were

0:58:190:58:22

the holders and fancied to win it in 1970. You are right, if England were

0:58:230:58:26

to bomb out, I think that would have a much more significant effect on

0:58:270:58:30

the result of the referendum, than if England do W I expect England to

0:58:310:58:35

do well. I think that will be a result. But a defeat will be

0:58:360:58:38

colossal, I think. Sorry it has been so short. I blame the cat, myself.

0:58:390:58:42

Thank you for joining us. The One O'Clock News is on BBC One.

0:58:430:58:46

And I'll be on BBC One for This Week with Michael Portillo,

0:58:470:58:54

Liz Kendall, Suzanne Evans, Martin Lewis and Quentin Letts,

0:58:550:58:56

plus Michael Moore and Jerry Springer all joining me from 11.45

0:58:570:58:59

It's home to a million people at any one time...

0:59:000:59:03

..consumes tens of millions of meals,

0:59:040:59:05

burns around ?150 billion worth of jet fuel...

0:59:060:59:10

..and handles over three billion pieces of luggage a year.

0:59:110:59:13

discover there's more than the air beneath the wings

0:59:140:59:20

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn are joined by the historian Andrew Roberts to discuss the day's politics. Conservative MP Sarah Wollaston explains why she has switched sides in the EU debate, and the historian Simon Schama discusses the history of the UK's relationship with the European Union. And with the European Championships imminent, is there a chance the fortunes of the home nations in football could have an impact on the referendum result?


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