14/06/2016 Daily Politics


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.


Labour lines up its big guns for a show of unity.


Will it help get the party's vote out for Remain?


Vote Leave highlight ?27 million spent by the EU on luxury


hotels and resorts, restaurants and private jets.


But is the spending which amounts to just one fortieth of one


per cent of total EU spending really profligate?


How will citizens in the home of Citizen Smith exercise


their democratic rights when they go to the polls


And we've asked Cass the Psychic Cat, we've


asked the pollsters, but can the bookies give us a better


idea of how Britain will vote in next week's referendum?


All that in the next hour and with us for the whole


of the programme today is the former Trade Minister in Gordon


Brown's government of all the talents -


He's now campaigning for Britain to leave the European Union.


Now, they're not an alternative government of course,


but Leave campaigners have today been setting out


what they would like to be done with the money the UK pays


to the EU, should voters opt to leave on 23rd June.


In a letter, signed by Michael Gove and Boris Johnson, the Vote Leave


campaign have pledged to protect the funding for farming, science


and culture that they already receive from the EU until 2020.


The letter goes on to argue that there would still be "billions


more" to spend after those payments, and proposes putting ?5.5 billion


into the NHS by 2020, or ?100 million a week.


And use ?1.7 billion to abolish VAT on household energy bills.


But Remain campaigners, including former Chancellor Alistair


Darling, argue that the Leave campaign have already committed


to more ?100 billion spending commitments


with the money from the EU, and that leaving the EU


would lead to a "black hole in the public finances",


arguing that nine out of ten economists say it


Under whose authority are vote lead campaign is making these


commitments? I'm not part of the official campaign so I've no idea. I


am definitely going to vote to leave but I'm reluctant in as much that I


would love to stay in a reformed EU but I have no confidence in them


doing that. My concern is that nobody on either side actually


knows. They are peddling the possibilities on both sides as if it


is fact. They are very close to doing a budget and an alternative


budget. Is that what it sounds like? As you were reading that, I thought,


this is like a Tuesday in March. What worries me is that, I know why


they have to do it, because the economy is where Remain is trying


hard to win. Do you think the Leave campaign has struggled on the


economy? I think if Leave is winning on immigration and Remain is winning


on the economy, the problem is with the economy is that nobody knows. I


get frustrated by Remain who are saying this is going to happen and


this is going to happen, I wouldn't trust an economist to run a bar! I


remember I took the euro of the agenda at the CPI and I had 20


economists writing saying it would be Armageddon if we don't join the


Euro! And on that basis of don't know or both sides are peddling what


they say are facts, how dangerous is it to have a list of spending


commitments, this does come from Remain, but saying they have spent


over and over again the money they say will be saved if we come out? I


haven't gone through it any more than what you just said. If it


doesn't stand up to the rigour, never use it, and I'm not sure


Alistair Darling has done anything this morning other than what any


politician would do. The trouble with politicians talking about this


is they are skilled at getting people to vote, that is what they


do. The first casualty in that fight is always the truth. I don't blame


Johnson and Michael Gove for saying, if I saved this money, this is where


I would spend it, and Remain saying you're not going to save that money.


But we have to understand is that nobody knows. And one thing that


nobody is saying is if you vote to remain, you are not voting for the


status quo, you're voting for an entirely different sort of Europe.


There will be an economic cost of staying in and of coming out. And if


you're looking at the figures, and you are a businessman, if Vote Leave


was a business... If the EU was a business it would be bust. And would


Vote Leave be bussed if they have totalled up all these spending


commitments from what is supposedly ?250 million a week. If it is true


and I have pledged money they don't have, of course it won't happen. But


who knows? We don't know, neither do they and neither do Remain. What I


do know is that there will be an economic cost of hitching your wagon


to yesterday's organisation in Asia's 21st century and there will


be a market cost in the short term for coming out as well. If you think


there will be a market cost, we will discuss that further, but on the


politics, there is a Tory politician who has this morning said that Vote


Leave can say that they're going to spend the money if Britain pulls out


on these spending commitments because they have been made by Tory


ministers so it can be true. Presumably he was making a political


point and the answer is, politically, of course. Then you get


into what we do in March which is listened to a budget and compare the


alternative. I don't think it is right that politicians of both


sides... I don't believe I want a Prime Minister who says I'm only


looking after half the country. But you politicians on the other side


saying it is a political debate. It isn't, it is about my grandchildren,


which side of the world you want to working in their time. They should


not be about an extra ?4.5 million should be available for subsidising


theatres in five years' time. They are treating this as politics and


immediate finances instead of looking out, down to microgeneration


is about where Europe is, where is the economy, where is Asia's century


and how you tool up for welfare, health care and pensions when the


whole world is walking to the beat of a different drum. And both sides


have had a go at things like pensions. We will talk about it


further. The question for today is, what did


European Council President Donald Tusk say Britain leaving the EU


would lead to the destruction of? c) England's chances


of winning Euro 2016. At the end of the show


Digby will give Now, we have with us


a former Trade Minister But while his former boss


was strutting the stage yesterday, banging the drum for Remain,


Digby is a businessman and former director general of the CBI,


who is campaigning for Britain So what are the economic claims


for and against our continued The Chancellor, George Osborne,


has published Treasury analysis warning that a vote to leave


is a vote for a DIY recession, with David Cameron later describing


such a result as "a bomb under The Treasury analysis says that,


in the worst circumstances, up to 820,000 jobs could be lost


and growth could be up to 6% The IMF, OECD and IFS have also


warned of a hit to the economy But the campaign group


Economists for Brexit - made up of eight independent


economists - suggests that leaving would see the UK economy


actually grow more in 2020 They say that reduced EU regulation


and better use of the money saved from not contributing to the EU


budget would enable the UK The Remain campaign notes that,


according to HMRC, 44% of British The Remainers say if we left


that the EU could put up trade barriers, putting between 3


and 4 million jobs linked to EU But critics say that


because those jobs aren't linked directly to EU membership,


we could do our own deal with the EU which would maintain levels of trade


and safeguard employees. They also say that,


while a member of the EU, the UK can't do its own trade deals


with countries like America, India, or China - none of which currently


have a trade deal with the EU. And the Leave side claim that EU


regulation costs UK small businesses ?600 million a week and that


removing this burden would allow Well, the Commons Business Committee


has been talking to leading lights Here's a flavour of


what they had to say. It is unprecedented to see so many


FTSE 100 chairmen, chief executives, on behalf of their company,


not in a personal capacity which is what they have done


previously, to actually come out and say it is extraordinarily


important for the future of Britain that we remain


in the European Union. And of course these large businesses


to employ 10 million people. It's 40% of all employment,


over 50% of all turnover One of the things that concerns me


about immigration, and I had this discussion with the Governor


of the Bank of England a number of times last year,


was about the downward Which at this point in the economic


cycle should be rising now. I think for people in the country,


that is one of the big concerns. Joining us to put the business


case for remaining is Labour's Rachel Reeves,


who shadowed both the Treasury and Work and Pensions departments


during her frontbench career and is a former Bank


of England economist. Welcome to the show. The CBI


commissioned PWC to assist the economic impact of leaving the EU.


If we remain, the economy could be 41% larger by 2030 but under one of


the scenarios for leaving we strike free trade agreement and we would


still grow by 39%. The difference is hardly game changing? It will be


pretty game changing for people on ordinary incomes. If the economy


grows more slowly than it would otherwise have done, that means less


money at the end of the month to pay the rent and mortgage and the bills.


But look at what will happen in the near term, what is already happening


before we have even voted, and that is that sterling has fallen, stock


markets have fallen, money is leaving the UK, business investment


decisions are being postponed. What does it mean for ordinary people? We


know what recessions mean because we saw it in 2008. Wages are falling or


stagnating, people losing their homes and people losing their jobs.


It is people on modest and middle incomes who always pay the highest


price when economies falter and go into recession. If we make that


decision in nine days, people should be under no illusions about what it


means for the cost of living and jobs and growth. White should be


risked even a slight shrinking in economic growth even if it is for


the short term as the Vote Leave campaign is saying? Why should


people be worried about the future of their jobs even in the short


term? And if these scenarios are played out, there would be a


shrinking and use it at the beginning you agreed. I see a


perception causing a short-term job. Sterling has risen since March so


please don't starve the alarmist about falling currency. It is at a


two-month low. I said sterling and stock markets. It hasn't. Why did


you say it has? It is at a two-month low. It is higher today than in


March. But what happened before March? It has been fluctuating a


lot. I want to deal in facts. Politicians come on here and save


the pound has been falling, it hasn't. To answer your question,


this is about the local competitiveness of our nation in


Asia's century. We are hitched to an organisation that worked a treat


between 1957 and 1990 and has failed - the 20 million people ever since.


If we carry on like this, we will not be able to afford pensions and


health care and welfare in 20 years' time will stop if somebody says, for


a couple of years it's going to be not Armageddon and recession but


difficult, but the reward is in 20 years you are globally competitive,


it is very irresponsible of politicians... Would there be a


reward after two years? Let's say there would be that short-term shock


and sterling could fall and there might be some sort of downward


pressure. If the economy was liberated, would that be something


you could support? Look at what the Gordon Browner of


the Bank of England has said: There will be a short-run cost to leaving


the EU but there will be a long-run cost. We will no longer have access


to the single market Yes you will. Brexit campaigners like Michael Gove


and Boris Johnson say we will not be part of a single market. It doesn't


mean we would not have access. You are either part of the single


market, or you are not. ... You could negotiate access to it. Of


course you can still trade but whether you have access in terms of


a tariff-free trade, Brexiters are saying they don't want That if the


single market means, what it means inner terms of wealth creation is


zero tariff. Much more than that. On the services side, as you well know


75% of our economy is services and the services directive isn't


implemented in France, let alone anywhere else. The services


directive doesn't work, Rachael. Don't talk over reach other. Go on,


Rachael. In my constituency in Leeds, financial services is a huge


part of our economy. Under the single market, there is pass porting


rules, which means that companies who are registered here have access


to be able to trade for the whole of the European Union. But it doesn't


work. Well, explain the fact it doesn't work. I am on the board, one


of my companies is an invoice company in London, we are trying to


open in France. We have had French regulators say - we don't want


British companies to do this. I have said there is a services directive,


the single market. I hear Labour politicians tell me there is a


single market I can make you. They say of course you can, take me to


the court justice. I said I can't afford it. They say exactly. It is


not going to happen. You don't know And neither do them. The single


market is about zero tariff. It is much more than that. What would be


the tariffs be? How high? At the moment, when there are tariffs,


telepretty low No-one going to put them up from zero. The World Trade


Organisation have said that it would be the worst-possible outcome - the


worst possible outcome would be for us to leave the single market. What


do they say the tariff levels would be? ? Different for different


industries. In the car manufacturing it is between 10 and 12% Germany


sell 1 million cars to British. The highest profit margin the in world


is the British awe tow market dou. Think, Mercedes, BMW and Audi are


going to I a plough Brussels to put a tariff on that, I don't think so.


The point is, you have no idea what will happen? Neither have you and


you sit well this aam laist stuff. You a typical middle age bloke who


loves interrupting women. You don't know how to conduct yourself, Let me


answer the question that Jo. Please answer the question and don't come


out with all the stuff you normally do. There you go again. But,


Rachael, answer. Off to your prejudice. Answer the specific


question on tariffs. It is important, you don't know they would


be put up to that level, either. The Brexiters like Gove and Johnson say


they want to leave the single market, which means that we go on to


WTO tariffs. Now we don't have, there is not a single example of a


trade negotiation being done with the EU within two years. And of


course, as soon as we leave the European Union, the Prime Minister


says he will invoke article 50, which means in two years we will


leave the European Union and after that period, we will be out of the


single market, on the wcht TO tariffs We won't, we will negotiate


T the German awe tow industry will never allow... And there is no


example of... Let Digby finish. Go on. You finish that thought. Very


kind of you. Tend of the day, the German motor industry is such an


enormous lobbyist in Brussels it will never allow its awe tow


industry not to tell into here on zero tariff, the auto industry. And


the zero tariff, either in remain or leave, I have businesses where I


want to get visas with Indians with engineering skills to come and work


in my K I can't. Because you have a Government and the Labour Government


would be the #15i78, they are saying - we are not going to give the visas


outside, because we can't stop the ones coming inside. I couldn't care


if they are Romanian engineers, it is not about where they come from,


it is the skill. If you want competitiveness inside or outside,


on a business footing, you have to allow us to fish in an immigration


poof 100% of the world and not just 28%. It is an economic issue not


immigration issue. One of the things raised by Tristan hunt on the


discussion you had with him on is imrar ground is you wouldn't be able


to get a deal with the EU unless you accept free movement of labour, do


you think that's true? Yes. Why? Because, for example, with the


Finance Minister in Germany and other countries have said - Digby


says he wants to deal in facts, the fact is that no country has done a


free trade agreement with the EU within two years. Canada has taken


more than seven years. We are not Canada. And you would need the


agreement of all 27 other Member States of the European Union to do


any deal on access to their markets. Wouldn't that be a terrible


disappointment for leave support zblerps if the country votes to


leave the EU, a deal is for some sort of access, a good deal, on the


single market but the quid pro quo has to be some sort of freedom of


movement? And if there is a degree of freedom of movement based on


skill what is wrong with that Free movement within the EU, you would


sign up? I would tell you, if what was coming into Britain on offer,


from inside or outside the EU was quality immigration and a lot of it,


based on I will sk, I would put my hand up for, that it helps creating


wealth to pay for schools Hain hospitals in Britain. What really


does frustrate me is I have people in Brussels telling me that I can't


fish in a pool of 100% of available labour and that diminishes my


availability to be competitive and in 25 years' time, we will be doing


stuff elsewhere and not Britain and you won't be able to afford the


money you normally spend on your schools and hospitals. What do you


say to that Well, I have two young children. I'm in my 30s, in 25


years' time, I want my children to be able to go and live and work


anywhere within the European Union. I want there to be good jobs and


investment in this country and wanted to have first-rate public


services. But at the moment, if you look like countries like Spain and


Italy, for example and Greece, they all want to come here, the young


people, because there are no jobs for them there at the moment. That's


the reality Forestieri now? They are not skilled. There are huge problems


within the European Union at the moment. I'm not saying everything is


fievenlt I think this referendum is wake-up call to the European Union


and British Government that things have to be done differently, on free


dom of mo. , on jobs, on the whole approach to us a terry. - freedom of


movement. We don't know what will happen if we walk away. If we leave,


the European Union could fragment and break up and we will go back to


the same situation that we saw in the 30s and 40s, and the instability


there. If your plea that I don't interrupt you is valid, so is my


request on on behalf of the viewers that you answer the question. The


question was - why isn't business allowed to fish in a reservoir of


100% of available talent in the world and why am I being told I can


only get visa s for people who live in the European Union, or they don't


need a veesia. If you look at net migration, there was more from this


country from outside of the European Union. That's not the point. The


point is I cannot get visaings on a universal basis. Would you want


fewer people to come overall? No, I wouldn't. For me, it is not a


numbers game. For me it is a skill, ability to create #w5e8, generate


tax and pay for schools and Hobbings. -- create wealth. You are


inhibiting businesses ability to create wealth by allowing anybody to


come in from Europe and not allowed skilled people from overseas. I'm in


the a Tory Government minister. Your Government did just the same. You


were part of that Government Don't blame the Tories or Labour. This is


not a tribal issue. It is the Tories who introduced a cap on numbers and


have tried to squeeze out the number of non-EU migrants coming into the


country. I think we need reform of free movement of labour. I don't


think... Hang on a moment. While we have moved on to the territory of


party politics. Stay with us, Rachael, because in the last half an


hour, the Shadow Cabinet have gathered in a show of unity as they


tried to press home Labour's message that Britain should remain inside


the European Union. Conservatives Remainers have stepped


aside this week amidst concern in their ranks that it's Labour


voters who'll fail to turn out Here's what the Labour leader,


Jeremy Corbyn, had to say. This is the Labour movement saying


that we are voting to remain We are saying that because we want


to defend the very many gains we have made by trade unions


across Europe that have brought us better working conditions,


longer holidays, less discrimination Jeremy Corbyn there. Franked by the


shadow kab ne. Jeremy Corbyn has said he is only 7 to 7. Out of 10 on


staying within the EU. Is he want of Leave's best assets? I don't think


that's the answer he should have given. Others in the Shadow Cabinet


are saying today that we are better off and Labour people are better off


within the European Union because of the protection of workers' rights


that are afforded by our membership of the European Union and because of


the high-quality jobs that come to our country because of our


membership. How worried are you, though, that Labour voters aren't


going to turn out? It is a very real challenge. It is really important


that Jeremy and the whole team are out there today, making the grossive


case, the Labour case for our continued membership. -- the


progressive case. What is it like for you on the doorsteps in your


constituency? It is tough. My constituency in Leeds where averagep


earnings are ?18,000 a year. A lot of people have seen over the last


five-10 years, a real squeeze on living standards and income. Are


they voting out? Many are. Is that Labour's failure? In many ways, it


is. Because we need to make a compelling Labour case about


good-quality jobs and investment, tackling some of the problems about


wages being undercut and dealing, for example - one of the things we


had in our last manifesto is no job should be able to advertise overseas


before they are advertised in this country. Employment agencies and


businesses are still able to do that. That means British workers not


even having access to jobs. So it is really important in those last nine


days, it is not just David Cameron and Osborne and the Tories making


the case to stay in the European Union, but that we hear those Labour


voices, including those trade union voices. What is the Labour message?


Is it confused? You are a fan of ti. TP which is controversial for many


within the Labour Party, whereas Jeremy Corbyn said he would veto


that if it was a deal? So what is the Labour message on that? TITIP


doesn't have to be a bad deal for Britain and British workers f it


opens up jobs -- if it opens up jobs and investment it is a good thing


for British export. Why is Jeremy Corbyn wanting to veto it? We said


if it meant the privatisation of the NHS we would not support T we have


had assurances from the United States and the European Union


Commissioner that the health services, for example, will be


exempt from those ti. -- from those TITIP laws. Well, he said he would


veto it. Well, he hasn't. We want concern protections, for example,


for the NHS and environment but let's not throw the baby out with


the bath water. Free trade and bringing down the Paris barriers


will mean cheapers prices for consumers, easing the cost of living


pressures for many families and greater opportunities for British


exspoerts but you asked me what was the labour case for staying in the


European Union. It is about avoiding a race to the bottom b protecting


workers' rights, crack down on tax avoidance as Gordon Brown said, and


as Frances O'Grady, leader of the TUC said, about assuring


high-quality jobs stay in the country. Can I ask you about it.


ITIP? This makes people anxious about what it would mean in terms of


opening up public services here. -- TITIP? Jeremy Corbyn has promised,


so far, to veto T Rachael Reeve, certainly as it stands and if there


was any indication that it might expose the NHS to American


companies, for example? Where do you stand on this? In terms of the head


looun I would be with right. I would say it has to be right to job your


tariff barriers and to get more trade going to create in the medium


term, more wealth for the country and therefore taxes and therefore,


schools and hospitals. In terms of the NHS, which was the specific


question, we all know that's a broken model. Not that it should,


for a minute, ever go into the private sector but that we can't


carry on with something created in 1947 to deal with a getting-older


population. And people born today are going to live to be 100, you are


not going to have 30-odd years with an organisation that wasn't built to


do it. You have to change T the greatest way to change will be


competition. You think done the right way, it would be the right


thing to do I would use TITIP as a catalyst for getting change in the


NHS. Could I ask you one question - when you said then - I want to stay


in the European Union, to protect workers' rights, we have this most


fabulous competitive automotive sector, fully unionised, completely


unionised and applied Unite for the way they have dealt with our


manufacturing. Ask the question. Nobody in their right mind is


actually going to go back on the 40-hour week on agency directives


and maternity and approximate ternity way. They woevenlt it is not


in anybody's interests. There is no evidence. Why would any employer go


back on that? And at the same time, when you are saying - we want it


advertise jobs only in Britain, one of the things that free movement of


labour at the moment is doing, is producing your race to the bottom


because employers, especially small businesses are able to tap into poor


people in Italy and Romania and give them low jobs. Answer that question.


Well at the event we are talking about where Jeremy Corbyn is with


the Shadow Cabinet Tom Watson has been talking to the BBC saying there


should be controls on freedom of movement for EU migrants under any


future Government. Is he right? Yes and I agree with what Ed balls


said on this. Before the last election I talked about workers not


having access to tax credits and benefit system until they have been


here for at least four years. If you had to pay into the system before


you draw down on it. You do need reform. Have wages being depressed?


There are winners and losers from immigration and some people have


lost out because they have been competing for jobs. This is a


wake-up call to people and whatever the result in nine days, we need to


reform the European Union. Workers' rights have been hard fought for and


every step of the way... They have been opposed... There is no evidence


that any Tory government or any government would roll back those


rights. They are guaranteed because we are members of the EU. No,


because the market would not have it any other way. Thank you for coming


in. Now, if going to the polls once this


month isn't enough for you, then you might envy the people


of Tooting who have two opportunities to exercise


their rights as citizens. The by-election that will be held


there this Thursday was prompted by the elevation of its previous MP,


Sadiq Khan, to the position And, as Adam reports,


it's a part of South London that might be familiar to television


viewers of a certain vintage as home to a certain, fictional,


left-leaning citizen. This is where the BBC


filmed the 70s sitcom about an old Marxist,


Citizen Smith. Let's meet some of the people


auditioning to be the area's new MP. Labour has tried to inject some


adrenaline by selecting I'm going to be the lady that works


with Sadiq Khan to make sure that we build affordable homes


to buy and rent and I'm going to be Well, I am a Labour Party


member, I am my own woman. This isn't about Corbyn or Cameron


for me, it's about uniting as the Labour Party


on the issues that matter. When the Tory candidate


is not running for office, which he has done before,


he runs a group that Generally it tends to be people


in office jobs who want to go and get their hands dirty


at the weekend and go and cut some It's good fun actually, going along,


and any group that needs Setting up street festivals,


those kinds of things, just to make the area a bit more fun


and look a bit more spruce. Is that the lesser spotted Big


Society? You might say that but I


couldn't possibly comment. I found the Green candidate checking


on a gadget she had installed It's a real problem,


it's not just a fantasy Green problem, it's a problem


that is affecting many people The state of the roads


worries the Lib Dems too. We have been lobbying as a local


party on those subjects, on safer streets, for years


and nothing has been done. This is very much a Liberal topic


and a Liberal vote to be made. Have you done one of those typical


Lib Dem leaflets where you are pictured standing,


pointing at a road? While the Ukip candidate will be


glad when we are talking We have just had the GLA election,


the mayoral election, and now we have the huge one


on the 23rd of June so really this is like the little child,


isn't it? But how will the contenders cope


when I ask them to recreate the catchphrase of Tooting's


favourite fictional son? The people of Tooting get the power


to pick one of them on Thursday. And you can find a full list


of candidates standing in the Tooting by-election


on the BBC News website. EU officials have been accused


of spending millions of pounds of taxpayers' money every year


on "jollies and exorbitant An investigation by Vote Leave


claims that the European Commission spent ?27 million on so-called


"luxury" just in 2014. The claims included


?347,863 on private jets, including ?17,565 on the five star


Shangri La Hotel in Singapore, has dismissed the allegations


as "simply absurd". Earlier I spoke to the


Labour MEP and former European Council spokesman,


Richard Corbett. I started by asking him what he made


of the claims. Well, let's look at the source


of this for a start. It's Vote Leave, it's the Vote Leave


campaign which has come up with some pretty dodgy figures


and statistics in the past. But even if some of them


were true, and actually, if you look at some of them,


they are stretching it a bit, yes, ministerial meetings


sometimes happen in hotels. Yes, some of those hotels may


offer massage facilities. It doesn't mean any ministers used


those facilities for heavens sake. But even if some of these


claims were correct, of course they should be


investigated and clamped down on. You don't think it's right that EU


officials spent 222,716 If that claim is correct,


it needs to be checked. What I suspect it is,


is that ministerial meetings took Yes, ministerial meetings


across the world take No-one would argue with that


but I think it is the amounts. Is it justifiable to talk


about 5-star hotels Should EU taxpayers be paying


for expenses like that? If there is any extra luxuries


involved that are not connected That is why these things


should be investigated. But let's not forget,


the EU used to be pretty bad at this and things have got quite


a lot better. So if I give you some


more examples. I rather suspect that some


of them are made up, I mean, on golf, you may well look


into that and find that a hotel where a ministerial meeting took


place, perhaps, had That doesn't mean they spent


their time playing But it looks good, doesn't it,


if you put it in a press release and say all this money


was spent at a golf venue! What about, in your position


as an adviser to Herman Van Rompuy, the former president


of the European Council, Or is he happy with something


a little less glamorous? He was a very modest man


and never sought any glamour And so he did stay in 5-star


hotels or did he stay When he went to the G8


summit in Washington, hosted by President Obama,


they stayed in Camp David. But it wasn't his


choice of venue. Some of it is labelled as routine


administrative expenditure and you are quite right,


of course organisations have to spend some money


in terms of going away, meeting with other


dignitaries abroad. But have you ever come across,


in your time, any egregious expenses Not personally but I have read


of things and auditors reports have The important thing


is to be able to clamp down And there, the record


in recent years, is that when abuse has taken place,


the EU has got a lot better at clamping down on things,


partly thanks to MEPs and the European Parliament asking


questions and pinning them down. Partly thanks to the Court


of Auditors, appointed by the member states,


remember, which goes through things


with a fine tooth comb. And it has now signed off the EU


Council for the last nearly ten years, whereas in the past,


year after year it refused to sign off the accounts because they


were not good enough. Now they are good enough


and that's an improvement. It doesn't look good in the public


imagination, does it? Which is exactly why Vote Leave put


together this dossier. And looking at their track record


of claims and allegations, indeed in some cases fibs,


I would take with a pinch of salt every one of those allegations


until I have looked through and checked if there was any


truth in them at all. Do you think it will do any damage


to the Remain campaign? That's what it intended to do


by them, of course, to focus away from the big economic arguments,


the fact that leaving the European Union, the economic


impact of that on Britain Almost all economic forecasters,


who are usually all over the place but for once they all agree,


that this would be a disaster for Britain if we left


the European Union. They want to take


attention away from that. Do you think a bit about cheap shot


by Vote Leave? The biggest problem for me is only ?931 on chocolate! I


don't think it is a cheap shot because it is exploiting a bigger


thing which it is whether ?300,000 in a private jet, that is not the


issue, the issue is trust and transparency. It took an


investigation to find these figures, they are not on a website. People


thinking this fulfilled my prejudices, unaccountable people


spending my money. Do you think it is that bad? I expected it to be


worse than those figures. They do have to spend money but they are


accountable. They are missing the big one, which is ?100 million a


year of everybody's money to move the parliament once a month from


Brussels to Strasbourg to satisfy French pride. ?100 million to do


something you don't need to do! There are moves to stop that


happening. The French will make it difficult. It is like Labour saying


we need to stop some free movement and they are right but eastern


Europe won't agree. The trouble is this organisation is that you cannot


reform it. He is being very straight about it and saying of course we


need to root it out. It is how you do it that is the problem.


Now, back in 1975 most Trade Unions were in favour of Britain


Today most are campaigning to stay in.


But a small number of them are campaigning to leave and there's


been a lively debate about whether EU membership really


We've invited trade unionists from both sides of the debate


First, Manuel Cortes of the Transport Union -


Let's face it, on 24th June, if we leave the EU, we won't be


a step closer to a socialist Nirvana.


Instead, we will have a vicious, vicious Tory Government whose loony


fringe would have been boosted and determined to destroy


all the gains people have made through our membership


From paid holidays to restrictions on working time.


From safer work places to maternity and parental leave.


In the case of rail workers, the EU protections they currently


enjoy, that allows them to keep their hard-fought terms


and conditions when franchises change hands, will be under severe,


That's why I will be campaigning extremely


But in doing so, I will also be looking to win hearts and minds.


Hearts and minds to create another Europe.


A social Europe that everyone deserves.


I strongly urge you to vote to stay in.


And by working together, with ordinary people


across the continent, another Europe, for the many,


not the few, is not only possible, but it is firmly,


Manuel Cortes of the TSSA union there making the case for Remain.


Now Mick Cash of the other transport union, the RMT, with


My union, RMT, opposes the UK's membership of the EU because it has


a negative impact on industry and for workers.


Our members have seen the impact of EU policies of liberalisation,


deregulation and privatisation, which have devastated


industries, including the UK's coal and steel sectors.


The Tory Prime Minister, John Major, broke up and privatised British Rail


This is one example of the bonfire public services, demanded by the EU


As a public service union, how can we support this


The EU has promoted the undercutting of wages and the social


dumping of cheap labour, leading to the decimation


The same is happening in the offshore energy industry.


EU directives also undermine our trade union collective


Some argue that we should stay and fight for something better,


The idea of a social Europe is a myth.


For all these reasons, the RMT is calling


And one of his colleagues, Alex Gordon, joins me now and we're


also joined by Cath Speight of the GMB union who is


Welcome to both you. Alex Gordon, the TUC general section, Franciso


Grady is warning in a peach there will be less money available to fund


the NHS if the UK votes to leave the EU. It is aern with aing reiterate


by the Chief Executive of the NHS, so what assurances can you give that


there will be money for a costly public service? It is a costly


public service and a service we are proud of. Most people in this


country want to invest in, through their taxes, the danger to the NHS,


comes from remaining in the European Union, and from the threat of the


transatlantic trade and investment partnership, the EU-US trade deal


that will open up the NHS for private health care companies from


America. What evidence do you have it'll do that? It is absolutely


clear from the very few leaks made from the proceedings in the


negotiations, that that is the ageneral daft American negotiators.


We have not signed up to that deal, yet? We haven't but it is being done


in -- that is the agenda of the American negotiators. We haven't


signed up to it. What due say an the argument around this partnership


between the EU and US many Labour and union supporters are worried


about it. We are working hard with the Labour MEPs to make sure that


public services are exempt from TITIP and our services are protected


but Alex's argument, if we believe that a Brexit vote would make our


NHS and public services safer, with the Tory Government, with probably


Boris or Michael Gove in charge, the Tory Government are already


privatised the NHS by stealth. And if we think a Brexit vote we will be


safe safer and the NHS will be safer in the Tory Government's hands


they... They will claim they are not privatising it by stealth and it was


opened up under a Labour Government initially to some sort of


competition but on Kath's broader point, why do you think the NHS


would be safer, particularly with a British gfted that could be a


Conservative Government, that you wouldn't support? Well, the NHS


isn't safe in Tory hands but of course the best way it make sure it


is not in Tory hands is to vote to come out of the European Union? Why?


They have said they'll spend more money. The Leigh campaign says


they'll spend the money that goes to the EU on the NHS? That's a fine


promise but it is a Conservative r Conservative Government with a


majority of 12, they are deeply split. If we vote to come out of the


EU, Cameron is out of office, he will be sacked by his own party and


we'll have a general election. A clear message from Labour figures


like John McDonnell are saying a Tory Brexit would impose further


austerity cuts. It would be workers who would suffer because the economy


would shrink and a loss of workers' rights, is he wrong? I think he is


wrong. The fact is austerity is the programme of the European Commission


and European Union. They have driven it relentlessly from Greece to


Portugal and every country in between. Britain is not ex-tempt


from austerity measures because we are not part of the eurozone. We


still have to be part of stability and growth agreement and follow the


recommendations from the European Commission issued every November.


Britain is facing austerity because of EU policies and directives. What


do you say? The example of Greece is clear to everybody, they screamed


austerity. The UK is the fifth largest economy until the world. So


say we can be compared with Greece is a bit silly. On austerity, it is


a political L it was the political will of the Coalition Government and


now the Tory Government to impose us a terry. Austerity doesn't go, you


know to the very richest. -- to impose austerity. It is the very


poorest in our country who have paid for us a terry. When you can give


tax cuts to the richest and take ?30 from disabled people... So what is


the EU doing? You talking here about national politics. What is your


argument for remaining in the EU to protect those people that you say


has suffered as a result of austerity? The EU needs changes and


reforming, we not saying in GMB it is perfect and we have to stay. We


have to stay in it to reform T we want a social Europe that looks


after workers, whether in the UK or Spain or Germany or anywhere else


and that looks after the most vulnerable in society. Do you think


workers, or British wages have been depressed, kept lower because of


people coming from EU countries? Well, when a business can go to


Romania or any other of the eastern European countries and advertise


jobs there, before they have been advertised in this country, then,


yes. That's why you are putting... Why do you want it stay in the EU?


We are already looking at reform. The commission have agreed to look


at the posting of workers' directive, which means that a woke


coming from another part of the EU can be paid what they would have


been paid in their own country, instead of being paid what they


should be paid in this country. We are looking for an even playing


field. Therefore, it is the exploiters we should go after, not


the people being exploited. Let's look at sterling, Alex Gordon, you


retweeted on June 11th that sterling fell by more than 1% against the


dollar as traders showed the independent poll showing country


vote towards the Leave. You are on record saying a fall in a pound


would be a good thing. Why? It is overvalued. It makes exports very


unaffordable. The fact is that the current exchange rate of ?1 is set


for the interests of the City of London and the banks that want cheap


money washing in and out. The interests of ordinary people in


Britain is not the same as the interests of the banks. We should


have healthy manufacturing sector that. Would be assisted by a fall in


the value of the pound. All right. We are going to leave it there.


Thank you both very much. Now, it probably hasn't escaped your


notice that we're in the middle And there are strict rules


for broadcasters to balance the arguments on each side


of the debate. As you saw demonstrated earlier on


in the show. So how does the BBC


going about doing that? The BBC at Westminster


on a Wednesday. It's midday and Prime Minister's


Questions. Everyone is busy organising


a disco for afterwards - you get the drinks I'll


get the crisps. No, not that kind of disco,


it is the shorthand we use to describe a discussion


on a programme, but, how do you make sure


you get the right people? In the Daily Politics' studio,


like every Wednesday, two senior MPs standing by to say


who won PMQs. We have to balance political


parties and viewpoints, particularly in the run-up


to something as important So today, for example we had


Labour's Lisa Nandy, part of the Shadow Cabinet -


firmly behind the Remain camp. And former Defence Secretary,


Liam Fox for the Conservatives. Now although he is not a Cabinet


minister, he represents the Leave We did the same last week


but in reverse. We had a Conservative


minister for Remain, Ed Vaizey and we had a Labour


leaver, Kate Hoey. Kate Hoey has popped up again around


the corner, she is discoing with Patrick McLaughlin,


the Transport Secretary The World at One, this


is Shaun Ley at Westminster. Hang on, there are hardly any


of them left any more. How come he gets to sit


at the top table? He's a former minister


from the Coalition Government. He is one of the handful of plucky


Liberal Democrat survivors Nonetheless, they are still


a presence at Westminster and still obviously a political


presence in the country. But if you were a listener


who supported the Greens or SNP, for example, you wouldn't think


that was a balanced panel. To which my response would be,


we have hadded SNP on and They are now the third largest


party at Westminster. It is absolutely right


that they should be a regular They actually are probably


on more frequently than That wouldn't have been the case


in the last Parliament. As for Ukip, they got almost


4 million votes but earned them a single MP, Douglas Carswell


and so he has made one appearance on the World At One PMQs' panel


in the past six months, although Ukipers have been


interviewed for other Back in the office, the producers


are grappling with how to fit a lot of politics


into not a lot of air time. You cannot rely on the stopwatch


rule of politics which says you give 30 seconds for him and 30


seconds for her. In 30 seconds somebody might say


all they need to say. In 30 seconds, somebody else


might barely get going. And look, even the microphones


in the studio are balanced We've had Cass the Psychic Cat,


who plumped for Remain by the way, we've had the pollsters -


they're sitting on the fence - but could it actually be


the bookmakers who can most accurately predict the result


of the EU referendum? Well, Matthew Shaddick,


who runs political betting at Ladbrokes,


is out on College Green Nice and big so I can read T what


are the odds at the moment? We are currently showing 8-13 will he main


and 5-4 Leave. Big move for Leave overnight. That implies we think


there is a 42% chance that the UK is going to vote to Leave the European


Union. As you say a major move, certainly since the last time I had


a look at the odds. What due base that prediction on? . Mostly it is


based on the amount of money taking from our customers, which has


shifted heavily towards Leave over the last few days. That chance was


only 25% on Monday and we're probably only one very good poll for


Leave away from them becoming favourites to win the vote. What do


you think is driving people to put money on Leave? The pos have been


more favourable for them this week. I guess also the Sunjic coming out


for Leave overnight -- the Sun coming out. No big surprise there.


Who is placing the bet and does it skew the predictions? I don't think


so. I think it is a wide cross section of Ladbrokes' customers and


people betting for the first time. The nearer you get to the vote, the


more we will see people who perhaps aren't that interested in politics,


but perhaps have a strong view on this vote, coming out to have a bet.


I guess those people are more likely to be on the Leave side. Let's test


your track record. How well did you do in the general election? Not too


bad on some days, on polling day, the polls were saying it would be a


dead heat between Labour and the Tories but the betting market was


saying there was an 80% chance that the Tories would be the biggest


party. I can't say we did much better than anybody else at spotting


the Tory majority. We didn't do well at that. That cost us about ?1


million. It cost you ?1 million Yes, not a good day for us. Are you a


betting man? Aim know not actually. I don't do that. Matthew... Will you


on this occasion. I'm interested in this, do you have any big bets on


either side. Don't tell me it is not our business on which side you went


on. What is your biggest bet? This week we had somebody in a shop on


Dover having ?10,000 on Leave. Numerous votes in the 10s and 20,000


in Remain. Last week Nigel Farage popped into a shot and had ?1,000.


The other question is What is the volume of money... We have run out


of time. I'm the presenter. We have run out of time. You will have to


ask that next time. And I mentioned earlier that Cass


the Psychic Cat plumped for Remain But it's since emerged


that the feline has failed at the first hurdle,


incorrectly predicting an England win in last Saturday's


match against Russia. There's just time before we go


to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was, what did


European Council President Donald Tusk say Britain leaving the EU


would lead to the destruction of? c) England's chances


of winning Euro 2016. I couldn't let the England team take


my dog for a walk. They can't hang on to a lead! Boom, boom.


Oh, dear Although grandiose and alarmist, it is the destruction of


western civilisation. Do you think it might have been an everat the


same time? Just a tad. That's it for today. Thank you to


all of our guests, especially Digby for being Guest of the day. That's


it from us, the 1.00 Hello. Today we're road-testing


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