28/06/2016 Daily Politics


28/06/2016

Jo Coburn is joined by writer and broadcaster Paul Mason to discuss the continuing fallout from Britain's decision to leave the EU.


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Transcript


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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Thousands gathered in Parliament Square last night

:00:41.:00:42.

in defiant support for him - but today, Labour MPs are voting

:00:43.:00:46.

in a motion of no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn.

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A vanquished Prime Minister returns to Brussels to tell fellow EU

:00:50.:00:55.

leaders that the British people have rejected the deal they offered

:00:56.:00:59.

to stay in the Union - what kind of deal will they offer

:01:00.:01:02.

And who will be the next Prime Minister?

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The runners and riders line up in the Conservative

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And with us for the whole of the programme today,

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is the former Newsnight and Channel Four News journalist -

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now prominent Jeremy Corbyn supporter - Paul Mason.

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An extraordinary day in the Commons yesterday.

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A Prime Minister who had just lost a referendum

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and announced his resignation, faced a Labour leader whose

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shadow cabinet were resigning en masse,

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saying they had lost confidence in his leadership.

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And it was the first day in the Chamber for the newly

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elected MP for Tooting, Rosena Allin-Khan.

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Let's have a look at some of those exchanges.

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With over 33 million people from England, Scotland, Wales, Northern

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Ireland and Gibraltar, all having their say, we should be proud of our

:02:10.:02:14.

parliamentary democracy. But it is right when we consider questions of

:02:15.:02:18.

this magnitude, we don't just leave it to politicians but leave it

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directly to the people. That is why members voted for a referendum by a

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margin of almost six to one. Let me welcome the new member for Tooting

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to her place. I would advise her to keep her mobile phone on, she might

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be in the shadow cabinet by the end of the day! Mr Speaker, the British

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people voted to leave the European Union. It was not the result I

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wanted nor the outcome I believe was the best for the country I love, but

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there can be no doubt about the result. I don't take back what I

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said about the risks. It will be difficult. There will be adjustments

:02:57.:03:01.

within our economy. Complex constitutional issues and

:03:02.:03:04.

challenging new negotiation to undertake with Europe. But I am

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clear, and the Cabinet agreed, that the decision must be accepted and

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the process of implementing the decision in the best possible way

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must now begin. Mr Speaker, tomorrow I will attend the European Council.

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In the past few days I have spoken to Chancellor Merkel, President

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Hollande and a number of other European leaders. We discussed the

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need to prepare for the negotiations and the fact the British government

:03:29.:03:32.

will not be triggering Article 50 at this stage. Before we do that, we

:03:33.:03:36.

need to determine the kind of relationship we want with the EU.

:03:37.:03:40.

That is something for the next Prime Minister and the Cabinet to decide.

:03:41.:03:44.

As political leaders we have a duty to calm our language and our tone,

:03:45.:03:48.

especially after the shocking events of ten days ago. Our country is

:03:49.:03:56.

divided. And the country will thank me that the benches in front of me

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nor those behind for indulging in internal factional manoeuvring at

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this time. Some of the exchanges

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in the Commons yesterday there. Now, Labour MPs are taking part

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in a vote of no confidence Let's talk to our

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correspondent, Iain Watson, What is happening? The ballots

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opened about an hour ago. MPs are voting around the corner from here

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but in an area closed to the public and the press. It will be a secret

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ballot. That probably makes it even more likely the result will be an

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overwhelming vote of no-confidence in Jeremy Corbyn. We had a guide to

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that last night with a meeting of the Parliamentary Labour Party. I

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just ran into a veteran Labour MP this morning. He said he had been an

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MP for 40 years and he had never been at a worse PLP. Alan Johnson

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smacked into Jeremy Corbyn, saying he had to take responsibility for

:05:06.:05:09.

the referendum. Yvette Cooper said his heart and soul was not in it.

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Everyone said, you are a nice guy but you are not a leader. There was

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a row outside of the Parliamentary Labour Party were John Woodcock got

:05:19.:05:23.

stuck into some of Jeremy Corbyn's aids and said Jeremy Corbyn posed an

:05:24.:05:27.

existential threat to the Labour Party itself. That is the atmosphere

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against which the ballot is taking place. Even if they do vote

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overwhelmingly against Jeremy Corbyn, that will not be enough to

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force him from office. There needs to be a formal leadership challenge.

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50 at -- 50 Labour MPs will have to unite around a candidate. Jeremy

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Corbyn's people thought it might be quite difficult. As one of them

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said, they all agree what they are against, can they agree on what they

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are for? The status of the no-confidence motion does not

:05:58.:06:02.

trigger the leadership ballot, but do you doubt there is going to be

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some kind of leadership challenge? Will Jeremy Corbyn be automatically

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on that ballot paper? Tom Watson told him yesterday he thought a

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leadership contest was inevitable. The question is, will Tom Watson,

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Dan Jarvis or Angela Eagle unite behind one candidate? I think in the

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end they will. Certainly if this photo is overwhelmingly against

:06:28.:06:30.

Jeremy Corbyn today. Then a formal leadership ballot would be

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triggered. That goes to the members. Jeremy Corbyn is hopeful that those

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rank-and-file members who joined to support him last year have not

:06:39.:06:42.

drifted away. But I have seen some correspondence sent from local party

:06:43.:06:47.

members to shadow cabinet members, who did support Jeremy Corbyn, and

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they want him to go as well. Willie automatically be in the ballot?

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There is conflicting legal advice. He will have to seek the support of

:06:59.:07:06.

MPs. That will be a big hurdle. It may end up in the courts.

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Joining us is Labour MP Andy Slaughter, who has also resigned.

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Welcome. You resigned last night after being a supporter of Jeremy

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Corbyn. What changed? I think the political climate has changed

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immeasurably since Brexit last week. There is no leadership of the

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country. A lame duck Prime Minister and the empty vessel of Boris

:07:31.:07:34.

Johnson waiting in the wings. Being -- the economy is in a terrible

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state. I had a racist attack on a Polish resident of my constituency

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over the weekend. The country is crying out for leadership. The

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opposition is just as important. We need to move on and have a leader

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that can unite the party in the country. Why do you think he cannot

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run night -- unite the party where's you did a week ago? He did get

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overwhelming support from members. I have been happy to support his front

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bench team and give him support over that period of time. But I think

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that what happened in the Brexit campaign, and I think the response

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from my colleagues, we will see in the vote tonight, people talk about

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membership. Membership is absolutely important. But I consulted my

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membership before taking this decision. Overwhelmingly the people,

:08:22.:08:26.

elected councillors, officers etc, said, we need a new leader. The

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majority of the front bench have asked Jeremy Corbyn to go. 46 MPs

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have quit. The party is tearing itself apart. Jeremy Corbyn is still

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clinging on. Surely has to go? He's clinging on because he has the

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support of the overwhelming majority of members. You did not even consult

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your CLP. You consulted the committee of your CLP. Friends and

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colleagues. To me, one thing I agree with, this is a massive moment for

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the country, and the duty of MPs should be to represent the country

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and not the party. They should have woken up on Friday morning and asked

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themselves, how do I get rid of Jeremy Corbyn? -- shouldn't have.

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The Labour Party needs to be communicating through its members

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and unions with our people to calm things down and give messages of

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solidarity to the Polish community in your constituency. To the black

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people and Muslims who have been racially abused. I thought Jeremy's

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speech was brilliant in the Commons. Were you one of the people who

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sniggered? Were you one of the people who sniggered behind him?

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What difference would that make? Did you shout resign? What Paul Mason is

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saying... Those questions do not deserve an answer. I have been

:09:53.:09:57.

supportive of Jeremy. I said nothing at all. I made my own contribution

:09:58.:10:03.

in the statement. No, I disapprove of any behaviour of that kind, of

:10:04.:10:08.

course. I have huge respect for Jeremy. He has been a friend of mine

:10:09.:10:13.

for 30 years. I agree with him on many have not most policy issues. So

:10:14.:10:17.

don't make silly accusations like that. I asked your questions. That's

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my question. People do not believe Jeremy Corbyn can win the election.

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The Labour MPs who have resigned do not believe he can win the general

:10:29.:10:34.

election. Hang on. My question is, if they don't believe he can win a

:10:35.:10:39.

general election and we are still in a parliamentary democracy, and a

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party has to be led by someone who can actually come and have the

:10:44.:10:46.

authority and support of their MPs, it is over? I think Jeremy can win

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the election. This is the reason why. The Blairite wing, which is yet

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to show its hand... Let me finish. The Blairite wing is coordinating

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this. They are raising money right now for a candidate. They believe

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that Jeremy can win. They moved on Friday morning in a long planned

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move because they believe... They thought they had a couple of years

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to get rid of him. Then -- they now don't. It is logical to move against

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him. There will be people in the centre-right of the party would be

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like the tethered goat 's. You need to think about what you are doing.

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This is blood-letting in the Labour Party. This is what is going to

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happen. John McDonnell claimed there were 10,000 people in Parliament

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Square. I thought there were about 5000. John McDonnell was

:11:39.:11:45.

exaggerating, basically? By the time I was there it looked bigger. What

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do you say to those people who did elect Jeremy Corbyn? What do you say

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to them that you have always drawn your support? I have said already

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that Jeremy did get a majority vote last year and I did not vote for

:12:02.:12:04.

him. But I was absolutely prepared to give him a fair wind in relation

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to this. I think that is what I have done. In 30 years, I am very

:12:09.:12:13.

uncomfortable doing this. I have never talked publicly about the

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internal affairs of the Labour Party. But I think this is a time of

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national crisis. The government is giving no leadership at all. Cameron

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has walked away. We have to be responsible. We are a major national

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political party, the voice for poorer people in this country. We

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have to be giving leadership. That undermines your claim this is an --

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a Blairite orchestrated campaign. Andy Slaughter is not of that wing.

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Scores of MPs have withdrawn their support. There were claims that

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night -- last night that a lot of the banners at the rally were

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Socialist workers party banners. They were not Labour Party members.

:12:52.:13:00.

I think they were in the few hundreds. I don't think all of them

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were there. I made a pub full of Aslef train drivers. What people

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have to remember is that the Labour movement has massive social capital

:13:10.:13:13.

in this country. And Aslef train driver can bring ten, 15, 20 other

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people from a working-class community. That same kind of person

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can walk into a pub or club in one of these Ukip supporting places and

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face up to racism and bigotry. Our movement is full of people who can

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actually command the respect of and have a dialogue with the British

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people at this point. There is no candidate. If there was a candidate

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would that make it more viable? On the Labour leadership was there has

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to be a candidate. Who is that candidate going to be to We will

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find out after the ballot. There are a number of people in the PLP would

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make a very good Prime Minister. I'm going to wait and see who the

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runners and riders are. So anybody except Jeremy? It is not a case of

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anybody but Jeremy Corbyn in terms of Andy Slaughter, because he

:14:09.:14:12.

supported him. There is a sense of betrayal by Jeremy Corbyn in the

:14:13.:14:17.

referendum campaign, that he was a reluctant Remainer, that perhaps he

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did not even vote to remain. Do you accept that? People like Alan

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Johnson have said very strongly... He ran the Labour campaign. He said

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he did not have the support. Our ability to keep people was

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sabotaged. The Remain and reform, I would have said revolt, against

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Europe, that argument, I think, kept several percentage points of Labour

:14:50.:14:53.

people from going over to the other side. We don't know how visceral and

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the and this Leave thing was. It was not all that bunch of racists. It

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was not all a bunch of Ukip members. Many of our own people did. We did

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keep some people to vote Remain. Through gritted teeth. Do you think

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that would be a sense of betrayal? Would those MPs be justified who

:15:16.:15:19.

felt they lost the referendum because nobody knew the Labour

:15:20.:15:24.

message? Does not about that. Alistair Darling stood up with

:15:25.:15:27.

Osborne and threatened a punitive budget on Britain. Osborne resile

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from it yesterday. How does Jeremy Corbyn feel, having said this was

:15:35.:15:38.

the wrong thing to do? I think he is vindicated.

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The joke's doing the rounds this morning that if we're looking

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for a man to take us out of Europe, then former England manager

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But do our political leaders have any idea what the UK's exit

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This morning, in response to the result of last week's

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referendum, the European Parliament is meeting for an emergency sitting

:15:59.:16:00.

MEPs will vote on a non-binding motion, setting out the Parliament's

:16:01.:16:07.

position on how things should proceed from here.

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EU Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker and council representatives

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And it's expected the Parliament will urge the UK to invoke

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Article 50 immediately, to avoid "damaging uncertainty".

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That sets the clock ticking, giving the UK two years

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Then later this evening, the European Council will hold

:16:27.:16:30.

a regularly scheduled meeting of all 28 leaders -

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no doubt, now to be dominated by the UK's decision to leave.

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But tomorrow, David Cameron will find himself left out in the cold,

:16:36.:16:38.

when the remaining leaders meet informally to discuss what to do

:16:39.:16:40.

Speaking in the European Parliament this morning, the President

:16:41.:16:52.

of the European Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker,

:16:53.:16:54.

urged the UK "clarify its position on Brexit as soon as possible".

:16:55.:16:56.

He also has some stern words for Ukip MEPs, after he was

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We must respect British democracy, and the way it has voiced its view.

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That is the last time you are applauding here.

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And to some extent, I am really surprised that you are here.

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You were fighting for the exit, the British people voted

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Well, earlier I spoke to the German Chrisitan Democrat

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I asked what should happen now many 2 British negotiations.

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If it is today or tomorrow, that is not the question,

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but if it lasts very long, I think that a lot of member states

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are fed up with this kind of cherry picking,

:18:11.:18:12.

They want that the Government decides, they want the British

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Government is deciding in the next days or weeks, but not trying

:18:19.:18:23.

to delay the decision and to try negotiating in back rooms,

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There aren't no better conditions, the conditions are clear,

:18:30.:18:37.

and if Great Britain wants to leave, and we respect the referendum

:18:38.:18:41.

here in the European Parliament, it is a democratic decision,

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but the British Government has to decide about Article 50.

:18:44.:18:53.

So there could be a situation where Great Britain in negotiations

:18:54.:18:55.

could ask to have access to that single market,

:18:56.:18:57.

despite what was said in the campaign, and unlike Norway

:18:58.:19:00.

and Switzerland, avoid freedom of movement?

:19:01.:19:06.

I am absolutely sure that there is no cherry picking possible.

:19:07.:19:10.

So here in the Parliament, it was very, very clear

:19:11.:19:13.

that the Parliament is fed up with this kind of cherry picking.

:19:14.:19:18.

We would like to have the advantages but no disadvantages.

:19:19.:19:21.

We would like to have the rights but no obligations.

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We would like to have the money, but no payments.

:19:24.:19:27.

So this is not possible, so if Great Britain wants to have

:19:28.:19:30.

something of the European Union, then they have to give something.

:19:31.:19:35.

So the normal rules in the European Union,

:19:36.:19:38.

but to try always to have something special for Great Britain,

:19:39.:19:42.

Great Britain is a member of European Union or leaves

:19:43.:19:49.

the European Union, and if Great Britain wants something

:19:50.:19:51.

of the European Union, then they have to give

:19:52.:19:53.

And the Conservative MP and former Cabinet Minister, Owen Paterson,

:19:54.:20:02.

who campaigned for Leave joins us now.

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Welcome to the daily politics, no cherry picking you can't have your

:20:08.:20:13.

cake and eat it. No special treatment, Britain or the Leave

:20:14.:20:16.

campaign humiliated people from other member states during the

:20:17.:20:19.

referendum campaign, you are not going to get the deal you want. Well

:20:20.:20:24.

I think everybody has to understand that Leave means Leave. We have this

:20:25.:20:28.

massive vote, the biggest majority anybody has had in British history

:20:29.:20:32.

so 1.3 million have voted to Leave. That means we will leave the

:20:33.:20:36.

political arrangements and we made it clear throughout, all the

:20:37.:20:40.

referendum campaign, we want to have a new relationship based on trade

:20:41.:20:44.

and co-ofration, they have our neighbours have a massive surplus

:20:45.:20:47.

with us, that I have a huge interest in coming to a deal, we have had the

:20:48.:20:53.

head of the German CBI says he doesn't want arrangements that

:20:54.:20:58.

affect the German car industry, there are one million Germans...

:20:59.:21:01.

There will be no special treatment. Do you now accept, now that Britain

:21:02.:21:06.

has voted to leave and we had discussions before the actual poll

:21:07.:21:09.

if wow want access to single market as part of the trade deal you want

:21:10.:21:13.

to make, you will have to accept some form of freedom of movement?

:21:14.:21:18.

No, I don't accept that. You don't? Everybody we have spoken to has said

:21:19.:21:23.

you will not get that deal. You must have freedom of market. The CSU was

:21:24.:21:30.

wrong when she talked about members of the EEA, there is art 1.1.2 which

:21:31.:21:36.

allows members to restrict... They don't want to give it to you.

:21:37.:21:40.

Liechtenstein they respected the fact they couldn't have an unlimited

:21:41.:21:44.

influx and they got an arrangement. They are not going to do that for

:21:45.:21:48.

Britain? Why not. We are the fifth economy in the world. We are a huge

:21:49.:21:51.

player, they have to respect a massive vote by the British people.

:21:52.:21:54.

We said there would be a British option. Right. Do you agree or is

:21:55.:21:59.

Monica right? One of the reasons this little difficulty in the Labour

:22:00.:22:03.

Party is so frustrating this is what British politicians should be

:22:04.:22:06.

discussing right now. I think in order to calm the market, most

:22:07.:22:09.

people don't realise what the danger is, we should be put fog bar ward,

:22:10.:22:14.

any of the Tory candidates should be committed to a request. You are

:22:15.:22:20.

right, that under the EEA, there is an emergency break procedure for...

:22:21.:22:25.

The European economic area, of which Norway and Switzerland are a part,

:22:26.:22:30.

because they are two of the country. It would signal we want to remain

:22:31.:22:34.

part of the single parenting and we are prepared toing inniate on how we

:22:35.:22:38.

apply free movement. That could be a cross-party position, it could calm

:22:39.:22:41.

the market, I wish the Labour Party was in a position to discuss it. You

:22:42.:22:44.

are though, you should do it. Are you in a position? Who is in charge?

:22:45.:22:49.

Well the Prime Minister is in charge. He is resigning. He said he

:22:50.:22:53.

won't do anything with the negotiations. You are right. The

:22:54.:22:55.

there is cross-party agreement on this. I talked to a senior MP. Who

:22:56.:23:00.

is in charge, answer my question, at the moment? The Prime Minister said

:23:01.:23:04.

he is resigned. We will have a new Tory Prime Minister soon. There is

:23:05.:23:08.

no-one in charge at the moment. Oliver Letwin is doing the

:23:09.:23:11.

preparations. There won't be a White Paper. This is in flux. There is a

:23:12.:23:17.

flux period. I talked to a senior Labour MP who was a strong supporter

:23:18.:23:22.

of Leave. He had good ideas last night on immigration. Which I

:23:23.:23:26.

thought was good, there are sensible people in the Labour Party working

:23:27.:23:32.

on this. We know huge votes in Hartlepool, 71%, Birmingham, we know

:23:33.:23:37.

and I had people covered in builders dust outside the polling stations

:23:38.:23:42.

who are absolutely understand the need for managed immigration, but

:23:43.:23:45.

they understand we cannot go on building one house every six

:23:46.:23:50.

minutes. You wouldn't give up on managed migration to get a

:23:51.:23:55.

favourable trade deal No. Dan Hannan said that he would, and he thinks

:23:56.:24:00.

that is is what will happen I think he has been misinterpreted. He said

:24:01.:24:05.

clearly, I am saying what he said. Zero immigration, it is not going to

:24:06.:24:10.

happen. No-one has ever talked about zero immigration, that is childish.

:24:11.:24:13.

Some people think it is going to start now and migrants are going

:24:14.:24:18.

home. Talked about this when I was talking to farmer, I said we need to

:24:19.:24:21.

have managed immigration for the skilled people who used to come in

:24:22.:24:25.

to pick fruit and vegetables because they are skilled and good at it. We

:24:26.:24:32.

need skilled eye surgeons to come in and proper managed immigration,

:24:33.:24:36.

nobody has said we will stop it. Tens of thousands. Migrants play a

:24:37.:24:40.

key role in the economy. OK, but let. Hang on, the point as everyone

:24:41.:24:46.

has, is beginning to dawn on them, the success of the referendum we had

:24:47.:24:51.

a civilised debate although some of the stupid incidents attacking Poles

:24:52.:24:56.

are totally unacceptable. Is that not what has happened as a result.

:24:57.:24:59.

Happening on. I want to finish the point. Finish the point The

:25:00.:25:04.

projectionions are we will have a population by 71 million. That means

:25:05.:25:08.

a new house every six minute, that is not realistic. Let us go on do

:25:09.:25:14.

your point you raised the point of racist incidents when you accuse

:25:15.:25:19.

Project Fear, Project Fear about the pound slumping about credit rating

:25:20.:25:23.

agencies downgrading Britain, pension annuity rates are down.

:25:24.:25:26.

Infrastructure projects are put on hold and there have been reports of

:25:27.:25:30.

racist incidents, was that your plan? No, was it the BBC's plan to

:25:31.:25:35.

overhype the hysteria on this? Hang on, hang on. I am asking you a

:25:36.:25:39.

legitimate question about where we are now, I am asking you was that

:25:40.:25:43.

your plan? It wasn't Project Fear, it has come true? Of course it

:25:44.:25:48.

wasn't. You have moved into project hysteria, with we know major players

:25:49.:25:53.

in the city took a huge punt on Remain and they got it wrong. Now we

:25:54.:25:58.

are seeing the bank shares coming up, the FTSE come up, the pound come

:25:59.:26:04.

up, and all this is being massive, it is irresponsible. One point we

:26:05.:26:08.

should make to Jean-Claude Juncker, is while we are here, and until the

:26:09.:26:13.

treaty is changed, nothing has changed in law, we are full

:26:14.:26:21.

participant, all the rules of, all the treaties remain intact. Owen

:26:22.:26:25.

said we are in a state of flux. Not economy economically. At the moment

:26:26.:26:31.

few you look a the indicator, is it project hysteria or is it coming

:26:32.:26:38.

true? The The short-term hit on Friday was short-term. There more

:26:39.:26:43.

people think we are going to join the EA, the long-term issue is this,

:26:44.:26:47.

serious economists are saying we will lose the capacity to grow. One

:26:48.:26:52.

part of our capacity to grow was to import people from east Europe. That

:26:53.:26:56.

is part of George Osborne's growth plan, beyond that, if car company,

:26:57.:27:01.

finance companies move, that debt will be member youred against a

:27:02.:27:06.

smaller economy, and then we are in quite big trouble. We will have to

:27:07.:27:09.

move on. We only have half an hour. Stay with us, because we should have

:27:10.:27:12.

a new Conservative leader by the begin of September. That is the

:27:13.:27:16.

timetable that has been proposed by the 1922 Committee. Nominations will

:27:17.:27:20.

close on Thursday so who will roll up their sleeves and walk through

:27:21.:27:22.

the door? Boris Johnson is the obvious

:27:23.:27:27.

candidate, but there are a number Jeremy Hunt is on manoeuvres -

:27:28.:27:30.

he's written an article in the Telegraph calling

:27:31.:27:33.

for a second referendum once Britain has negotiated its withdrawal

:27:34.:27:36.

from the EU. Work and Pensions Secretary Stephen

:27:37.:27:38.

Crabb is understood to be teaming up with Business Secretary Sajid Javid

:27:39.:27:40.

for a joint campaign, and it's being reported in the press

:27:41.:27:43.

this morning that Theresa May is emerging as a

:27:44.:27:45.

potential favourite. Others who could throw their hat

:27:46.:27:47.

into the ring include Liam Fox, Nicky Morgan, Andrea Leadsom

:27:48.:27:50.

and Dominic Raab, although one person who's definitely ruled

:27:51.:27:52.

himself out is the one time He's written in the Times this

:27:53.:27:54.

morning that he believes he is "not the person to provide

:27:55.:27:58.

the unity my party needs". Who will roll up their sleeves and

:27:59.:28:08.

walk through the door? Who is your favourite? Let us see who puts hair

:28:09.:28:13.

hat in the ring tomorrow. I will support someone who has committed

:28:14.:28:17.

themselves to leave the European Union. Liam Fox, Boris Johnson? It

:28:18.:28:23.

has to be, we have to have the country led by someone with a clear

:28:24.:28:26.

commitment to leave the political arrangement of the European Union,

:28:27.:28:31.

and set up a new relationship based on trade and cooperation. Even those

:28:32.:28:35.

who campaigned for Remain will respect the will of the British

:28:36.:28:40.

people They will be harpooned by the fact they voted to Remain We have to

:28:41.:28:44.

have someone with a clear commitment to leave the European Union. If we

:28:45.:28:48.

don't, the whole political class is discredited. Yes or no Boris

:28:49.:28:55.

Johnson. Aagree. We are out of time. Thank you to you, bye.

:28:56.:28:57.

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