12/07/2016 Daily Politics

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics and Westminster,

where today David Cameron is completing his last

He's been meeting his cabinet for the last time, while Theresa May

is preparing to take over as prime minister after a dramatic end

to the Conservative Party leadership election.

Theresa May says she's honoured and humbled to be

chosen to lead the nation, and she's pledged to make a success

But who will get the top jobs in her government,

David Cameron is packing his bags at Downing Street months earlier

We'll be discussing the legacy of his time in office

and asking will it be defined by his decision to call

With the Conservative leadership election over, Labour is about to

get going. I'm here at that party HQ ahead of a crunch meeting that could

determine Jeremy Corbyn's fate. Some parties are calling

for a general election now, but will Theresa May

wait until 2020? We find out if the public is ready

to go back to the polls. All that in the next hour,

and with us for the whole of the programme today,

it's the Church of England priest So where else can we begin other

than with the news that Theresa May is to be the next prime minister

of the United Kingdom? Her rise to the top job,

which is due to formally take place tomorrow, was triggered

by David Cameron's failure to win the EU referendum,

and she was helped along the way by her Brexit-supporting

rivals falling aside. This morning, Theresa May attended

David Cameron's last cabinet at Downing Street,

and will now be working on her first speech as prime minister

and deciding who to appoint One of the biggest questions

is who she'll appoint to the second most important job,

that of Chancellor of the Exchequer, and how she will put together

a cabinet that united those who supported a vote to leave

and a vote to remain Much has been made of the fact she

is Britain's second woman Prime Minister and I suppose that is still

a big deal. It is a huge deal. But the great thing is that women since

been taking over all around the world. We might have a female

President of the United States and we will have Angela Merkel and in

Scotland, and we really are being run by women, and it's great to have

that male dominance broken. While she has risen to the top, David

Cameron is packing his bags and leaving. It's hard to believe that

he was elected with a Tory majority, the first since 1992, just last

year. What are your thoughts on that? This morning I thought, how

can you do it so quickly? How do you leave so quickly? The poor man, two

days ago, was leisurely imagining he had a while to go and now he has to

get out. We are going to have to pause and think about what his

legacy is. The Brexit thing may or may not dominate it. It will, went

it? But there will be other things we can look back on with David

Cameron 's time. We can think a bit more broadly about what he has done,

the good things he has done and the things he's not done so well. You

wouldn't put it simply you are pleased to see him go, you have some

sympathy? No, I'm pleased to see him go and I'm pleased to see the end of

the bowling than club politics, and the wave of austerity that he

represented -- Bullingdon club. He said he wanted to be a one nation

Tory, and he that and maybe Theresa May will be that.

Tomorrow will be David Cameron's final appearance at Prime

Minister's Questions, after which he will visit the Queen

Soon after that, Theresa May will make the same journey

to Buckingham Palace, before she heads to 10

Downing Street to take over as the second female prime minister

So what's going to be high on her list of priorities?

Theresa May's first task tomorrow evening will be to appoint people

to the other Great Offices of State: Chancellor, Foreign Secretary,

Other senior ministerial appointments will likely trickle out

on Thursday as the Cabinet reshuffle continues.

Although some are suggesting she should seek a mandate

from the country, she has explicitly said there should be no general

Having vowed that 'Brexit means Brexit', her first task will be

to step up negotiations with other EU countries,

which have in some cases already begun.

She's previously said that Article 50, formally announcing the UK's

intention to leave the bloc, will not be triggered until next

To assist in unravelling the UK-EU relationship,

a new department for Brexit will be set up in Whitehall.

The new Prime Minister's first big moment on the international stage

will come at the G20 summit in September.

But leaving the EU is not Theresa May's only focus -

there's the vote on Trident renewal next Monday.

The upcoming decision on whether or not to expand

Heathrow, which she is thought to oppose, and a platform of social

and economic reform outlined in her leadership speech this week.

Yesterday, Theresa May gave a statement setting

out the principles that would guide her as Prime Minister.

Brexit means Brexit and we're going to make a success of it.

Second, we need to unite our country, and third,

we need a strong, new, positive vision for

A vision of a country that works, not for the privileged few,

but that works for every one of us, because we're going to give people

And that's how, together, we will build a better Britain.

Let's talk now to our assistant political editor Norman Smith,

Well, let's talk more about Theresa May's rise to the top

with the historian Vernon Bogdanor and the Conservative Damian Green,

a friend of Mrs May's since university.

First, Vernon, just a sense of the occasion in terms of the history of

a new Prime Minister, a female Prime Minister comic at the beginning of a

new parliament. -- coming at the beginning. There is no requirement

to have the general election with a new Prime Minister but the character

of the government is often determined by a Prime Minister and

many thought that when Gordon Brown succeeded Tony Blair in 2007 he

ought to have had an election. The last new Prime Minister have an

election, you have to go back to 1955 when Anthony Eden, who had been

Prime Minister for three weeks, he called an election and was rewarded

with an increased majority. The situation this time is rather

different. The House of Commons was elected last year, and has shown to

be quite unrepresentative of the British public. Although there is no

constitutional requirement for an election there is a democratic

requirement for an election and that's a problem that Theresa May

might face given that she was a Remains a porter. We will come back

to that in a moment. -- a remain supporter.

Let's talk now to our assistant political editor Norman Smith,

he's in Downing Street where I understand the removal men

And I see you witnessed the arrivals and departures at the final cabinet.

There were some cameos in the street. The most interesting one was

Philip Hammond, the Foreign Secretary, who could become

Chancellor soon, but when he left and he asked how it went, he said so

so. What he meant is that it was a poignant moment. Because here you

have the Prime Minister in effect saying his farewells when only a

year ago he dragged his party from the clutches of a hung parliament

into government. So obviously a poignant moment. Nicky Morgan, when

she came out said there had been lots of lovely tributes to Mr

Cameron. Theresa May, when she came out, she strode in that direction

but was going to the wrong ministerial car and then headed in

that direction to get in the correct ministerial car so maybe people will

be hoping she's a bit more decisive in government. But she had the silly

me moment on the steps of Downing Street. That will probably be on the

front pages of the papers tomorrow. Old habits die hard. It has been

quite quick, the speed of transition. We were also told the

removal men had arrived and I'm not sure if we had a shot of it. But

it's happening so quickly this handover. It is. The removal van is

parked the other side and all of the snappers have their long telephoto

lenses to catch a couple of men in overalls carting a sofa about, but

it is so brutal and it is happening so fast. So Theresa May now has to

slam together her government remarkably quickly. And the

difficulty for her is that this is such a fundamental decision for her,

the people she has around her, the message she sends out but she has to

do it incredibly quickly. The only plus side apart from the fact that

she doesn't have to go through a protracted leadership contest is

that she at least has some breathing space to work out how she will

approach these Brexit negotiations. She has a bit more than two months

before the negotiations get under way in the autumn. On the one hand,

the fact everything is happening quickly is huge pressure in that she

has to appoint people quickly, but on the other hand it does give her

back critical breathing space to think about how she's going to

address Brexit which, let's be honest, is probable you going to

define her Premiership. Although she said the other day about setting her

own agenda, you can't help feeling that make or break for her will be

Brexit. Norman Smith, thank you. Damian Green, the make or break will

be the cabinet. Who should she appoint to the top jobs? She will

want to find a balance and clearly she has already said she is setting

up a new department to negotiate the Brexit terms and that will be led by

someone who voted to leave. She said Brexit will mean Brexit, so that

clearly means one of the key appointments. But like any incoming

Prime Minister I'm sure she will want to create a balance of

personalities, regional backgrounds, all kinds of things. Will it be an

onus on her to put a lever in the position of Chancellor, for example?

Philip Hammond has been talked about as a possible contender for the

role. He was a Remain voter. Will that be beneficial to the party? The

party will want a government that takes up the reins quickly and shows

a continuing competence. Clearly the whole Brexit negotiation is going to

be one of the most important things on the next few years but it's not

the only thing. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, what you want is a

degree of economic competence in a time where the global economy seems

to be slowing down. In terms of the critical importance of who will be

in the cabinet, you said, just before we went to Norman Smith, that

it will be critically important that she marks her credentials in terms

of leaving the EU. What does she have to do? The referendum shows

that what happens outside Parliament is becoming more important that --

than what happens in Parliament or the Cabinet. She has to reassure the

country that the decision taken by the public, which I think is not

just a decision to leave the European Union but a decision to

control immigration from the European Union, she has to show that

that decision is carried out, and more generally that the views of

people in the public who seem not to be listened to that their views are

taken into account. I think there is a huge gap not between the political

parties, but between the political class in general and the public that

were shown by the referendum. You are nodding. This is about the

disconnect clearly demonstrated during the referendum. How can she

do that? It's also about the fact that we are a divided country. We

have been revealed as a country with huge and deep divisions. Those who

were the beneficiaries of globalisation and those who were

left behind, those are clear. There is a huge task for a one nation Tory

to do exactly that, to bring everybody together, so people in

parts of the country where they feel profoundly unattended to to be

listened to and taken notice of. She was seen, certainly by the Liberal

Democrats and the coalition, as hard line on immigration but she used a

phrase in the contest saying she would have control of free movement.

Now you could argue you either have control or you have free movement,

you can't have both. I agree with Vernon that one of the messages was

that the old system of free movement we had from the rest of the European

Union cannot carry on. Clearly there needs to be a big enough change that

people will notice the change. But there could be some freedom of

movement still? We are getting into semantics. You don't want to close

the borders become North Korea. We were one skilled workers coming from

Europe as we do the rest of the world, and getting the balance right

is clearly the key while preserving as many of the economic advantages

of our access to the single market as we can. That will be the nub of

the negotiations and where you land on that spectrum will be hugely

important. Coming from somewhere like the Home

Office, where she has been an awfully long time, the longest Home

Secretary, not many people have made the leap from Home Secretary to

Prime Minister. I think the last one was Winston Churchill, although he

had a number of intermediate posts on the way. But as you imply, tans r

an extraordinarily difficult department to run. - it is an

extraordinarily difficult department to run. Probably one of the most

defendant in Whitehall. She has avoided all the snares. It is a very

good achievement. She hasn't been frightened to take on important

pressure groups, such as the police. She has dealt very firmly, I believe

with the issue of police corruption. Right, what about then, setting out

when she's going to invoke Article 50. That's will be what a lot of the

pro-Brexit Tory MPs will want to hear and they'll want it hear it,

soon? Wasn't Jim Callaghan Home Secretary? You are absolutely right.

I plead guilty. Good for you, I wasn't going to.

On that issue of Article 50. When does she need to say it I think what

she said was sensible, Britain needs to know what its negotiating stance

is. There is no point in invoking article 50, with the deadline before

you have your own ducks in a row. She suggested in one of the speeches

she made when she launched the leadership campaign that she thought

the end of this year, beginning of next year, would be the right time,

so we have the autumn to decide what are the important things for us to

start the negotiations, rather than start the negotiations before you

know what your negotiating stance is. Do you think that will 's be

enough for people who wanted the UK to leave the UK, that negotiations

don't start immediately? It doesn't matter whether it is quick enough or

not. I don't think he will with' have another election. There will be

those who think that Article 50 will be invoked immediately but a

sensible way of doing things is to get your ducks in a reand prepare

for what you are going to do. -- ducks in a row. People have to

ensure people Brexit means Brexit, that's what she is going to do and

she has done that, those of us who are enthusiastic levers will be

reassured that's where she is going, but now I think she has a it of

about time to do it properly. I think it is OK. It is not just about

Brexit. As you said, there are other things she will want to do the and

the rest of Government to deal with. We mentioned Trident at the

beginning. But some of the things she mentioned. She said the

Conservative Party must be at the service of Conservative Party,

putting workers on board, capping executive pay, sound like be Ed

Miliband's Labour manifesto? Well, a small overlap. It was a big part of

what he was saying at the time One of the differences between Theresa

May and Ed Miliband, is she gets things done. She's shown that as

Home Secretary, when she says she is going to do something, it happens.

That was the fear people had about Ed Miliband. I do think yesterday's

speech, it feels like about three weeks ago, actually it was only

yesterday morning she was making that speech. So much has happened

since then. It was a very interesting modernisation of the

Conservative One Nation agenda, actually talking about the problems

and we have talked about it already, the disconnect a lot of people feel

from the prosperity that some are having, actually dealing with one of

those things which are some excesses of boardroom pay in some companies.

And doing something about that is an important part of a message of

pulling the country together again. But what about her economic pitch?

That seems to be differing from David Cameron and George Osborne,

obviously Dutching the idea of reaching a surplus by 2020, less

austerity. Do you agree with that, too? I do. I think it is realistic,

regardless of the economic effects on us of the Brexit vote. You didn't

believe the manifesto you were elected on? I believed it then. What

has happened since then is that the world economy has slowed down and

any sensible Chancellor reacts to changing circumstances, as Kenyes

said, when the facts change I change my mind, what do you do? The facts

are changes in the world economy, so giving yourself some leeway on

getting deficit down to zero seemed sensible. George Osborne adopted

that as well. Are you wait big your phone for a job offer? I can do the

maths. Even on the first ballot there was something like 160-odd

people who voted for Theresa and far fewer jobs than that in Government.

I'm sure the Palace of Westminster is deeply tense at the moment but a

lot of people are always disappointed at this time. But you

are hopeful? I'm an etenter optimist but also a reist and I have been

around long enough to know that one should go through politics wary. I

would put you up. You would. Well you were close to Theresa May.

David Cameron appeared to forget he still had a microphone

on after delivering a brief statement outside

He won't be the first or last politicians to do that.

The question for today is what did he do as he walked

Was it a) mutter "Caribbean here we come"?

Or D) ask Sam to open a bottle of something cold?

At the end of the show, Giles will give

Until the surprise announcement that Theresa May was to be elected

as Conservative leader unopposed, David Cameron had expected

to stand down as Prime Minister in early September,

finishing his term in office with a final meeting of the G20

He had hoped, of course, to see out his third term before handing

over to his successor, but the failure of his campaign

to remain in the EU made that impossible.

Let's have a listen to him speaking yesterday.

I'm delighted that we're not going to have a prolonged Conservative

I think Andrea Leadsom has made absolutely the right decision to

stand aside and it is clear Theresa May has the overwhelming

support of the Conservative parliamentary party.

I'm also delighted that Theresa May will be the next Prime Minister.

She's more than able to provide the leadership our country

is going to need in the years ahead and she will have my full support.

Obviously with the changes, we now don't need to have a prolonged

period of transition and so, tomorrow, I will chair my

On Wednesday I will attend the House of Commons for Prime Minister'

Questions and after that, I expect to go to the Palace

So we will have a new Prime Minister in that building behind me by

To discuss David Cameron and his legacy we're

joined by Sam Gyimah, he's a Conservative minister

and served as Mr Cameron's principal private secretary,

and by the journalist Tim Montgomerie.

Welcome to you both. Sam Gyimah, he will only be remembered for one

thing, Europe and failing to keep Britain in the EU which is what he

campaigned for? . I think it is incredible unfair. It is obviously

down to historians to dissect everything that happened, but I

think the two big things about David Cameron's leadership. Firstly, we

forget when David Cameron became leader of the Conservative Party,

how unpopular the party had become. In 1997 we were decimated in that

election by Tony Blair. David Cameron became Prime Minister and

led the party into Government for the first time in 18 years and then

a majority Conservative Government for the first time in 23 years. What

for me was remarkable about that particular achievement is he did

that by also changing the party. In Government, I think he's also

achieved a lot. He wanted to be the Prime Minister, he was all about

sunny uplands but ended up being a Prime Minister who wanted to perform

an economic rescue mission. It is still in progress but he did a great

job on that. Is it true to say that actually some of the good things

that Sam Gyimah thinks he did, will just be wiped out by the memory of

Brexit and the EU referendum? I'm afraid so. He did do good things.

Hitting the 0.7% target on foreign aid, for example. Same sex marriage

were real achievements but of course he will be remembered for the

European referendum defeat, which I welcome the result, but that will

define how he is seen. I think he should also be remembered for some

of the things he Assaidi he would do in Government, like eliminate the

deficit. Well, we are only half way there to that and we have a

misshapen state as well. He said he would control immigration and he

certainly hasn't done that. There have been really important things,

like schools reform and welcome reform, but if you evaluate him on

the principled economic mission that he himself said was the Conservative

Party's to achieve and deliver, he is way off target. I think when you

have more people in work than ever before in our country today t didn't

happen by accident. It -- it didn't happen by accident. It happened

because he and George Osborne had an economic plan that has delivered. It

is still work in progress but let's not forget that we had one of the

worst recessions in the world. We had the biggest banking bailout in

the world. Maybe we were overoptimistic in terms of how

quickly it could be turned around. They failed in their main mission to

eliminate the deficit, didn't they? Not at all. We stood on an election

platform that we would be doing it by the end of this Parliament? And

now announced they won't do it by the end of this Parliament. Not

missed by a year or two, it is missed by a whole Parliament and

more, Sam. Wherever you stand on the Brexit debate, Leave or Remain you

have to understand we are in a situation where there is serious

economic uncertainty and that means that the likelihood of meeting those

targets by the end of the Parliament... Are you saying it was

only because of the Brexit vote you are missing the targets. Were you

really going to hit the surplus budget that George Osborne set

whether we remained or left the EU? I think there was a serious

programme to deliver that in terms of welfare reform and public

accepting cuts, and there was a serious plan, confident. What do you

think broadly in temples dealing with the coalition, and dealing with

the recession, didn't David Cameron lead the country through that

recession and out the other side I think one of his definite

achievements was to hold that Coalition Government together. I

suspect when that coalition was formed at the beginning of the last

Parliament, most pundits thought it would collapse during the five

years. It is a huge tribute to Nick Clegg and David Cameron that they

made it work. I think it is also significant, though, and this is why

Iain Duncan Smith resigned a few months ago, once the Liberal

Democrats were no longer holding George Osborne and David Cameron

back, you saw cuts in the Budget that more of affected the poor. So

this that the rich were getting tax cuts and the poor were still getting

austerity that. Didn't happen quite the same under the Liberal

Democrats. I think it is interesting that Theresa May, in her speech

yesterday, repudiating a lot of George Osborne's economic policy and

said - there must be a much greater bias to the people at the bottom end

of the income spectre. It is ironic, having won a majority, the fist one

since 1992, that David Cameron is leaving a year later, under the

coalition, somehow they managed better. Well, he called a

referendum. He recommended Remain. Was that a mistake? I think we got

to a place where there had to be a referendum on Europe. The settlement

was not acceptable. He called it, he recommended Remain, the country

voted the other way. I think it was the right course of action for him,

to leave. I am a proud Conservative. We introduced the national living

wage. When Tim talks about affecting the poor. That national living wage

is a huge achievement, and one that many people never expected a

Conservative Government to introduce. And the reason we can

talk about ourselves today as a One Nation Government and not get

laughed out of the room... Is it One Nation when the country is divided?

You should get laughed out of the room for that. There was a huge

banking crisis in which the country was screwed over by the banks and

David Cameron and his Government stood full square behind the banks,

when many parts of this country suffered and actually, in the end,

it was probably that that did for him. There are places like

Sunderland and Hartlepool, these first places that we remember, that

came in with huge majorities for Leave, these are people who feel

completely angry and unattended to and it is, and it is very, very - in

part it is David Cameron's fault that has happened. Come on, Giles.

The deindustrialisation in the North and some of these problems are

decades in the making. To somehow say today that because RBS was

rescued - and it had to be rescued - is why we have had problems there,

is simply untrue. I think you are right to say the referendum has

pointed to lots of parts of our country where there is a need to

make sure that the country works for everyone. It was a rejection, wasn't

it, of David Cameron wholesale, that bricts vote to some extent. Do you

think it undermined his whole project? I think if he had been a

popular who had the authority and people felt he was governing for the

whole nation, he wouldn't have lost the referendum. The great

opportunity for the Conservatives now, is we haven't just voted to

leave the European Union, we voted for a reset of our politics. I think

that begins for a if he cows on the North that's what we are talking

about. -- begins for a focus. The northern powerhouse, and as

Theresa May said yesterday, it was too focussed on Manchester and the

North West, Sunderland, plenty other places have been neglected and an

idea that they borrow ?100 billion, targeted on #23r5 infrastructure, I

hope Theresa May accepts that. Why did he win in 2015? The referendum

was not about David Cameron, the referendum was because a lot of

people felt they weren't being listened to and they weren't being

listened to, particularly by distant bureaucrats on Brussels and spe

specificically issues like immigration. It wasn't a referendum

on David Cameron, who won an unexpected majority a year ago. I

think it was also very lucky, in his opposition. That has to be said. --

he was lucky. The Labour Party is still going through trials and

tribelations and was lucky in his opponents. If he had a more

effective opposition, it would be been completely different. History.

If something else had happened? If we look at some of the things you

mention in terms of social reform, gay marriage, school reform, prison

reform under way. Maybe parts of the party didn't like t welfare reform,

NHS reform, not everyone supported these things, he was trying to be a

moderniser within the Conservative Party. Wasn't he?

There was that cover of the Economist where Cameron have the

Mohican and punk haircut. But have they been a bit more focused on the

core objectives like deficit reduction, they might have achieved

more of what they needed to achieve and they actually became slightly

distracted government in its early years. Will MPs miss David Cameron

personally, do you think? I will miss him personally, I was his

private secretary and I didn't know him before I became an MP and I was

in his inner circle and saw him working close. I will miss him

tremendously and a lot of Conservative in the 20 15th and 2010

intake, they know they are in Parliament today because of David

Cameron. He delivered electoral success that is why they can be MPs

representing their constituents. Because he wasn't seen as somebody

that popular in the Parliamentary party in all sections. There was a

distance and aloofness between himself and the party. You were one

of the conduits between the office and the MPs. Is that fair? I was

popular when I have that job. I bet you were. Everybody wanted to talk

to me. During the coalition in particular, Number ten had to make a

big effort to make sure it was connected with the Parliamentary

party. What you had was Nick Clegg, Danny Alexander, David Cameron and

George Osborne, they would thrash out ideas, announce them and then

the Parliamentary party felt disconnected. There needed to be a

doubling down so the Parliamentary party was plugged in. There were a

range of people, if you crossed David Cameron wants, you are out. He

was quite an unforgiving Prime Minister to his critics. Theresa

May, I hope, won't repeat that mistake. The Tories only have a

majority of 12 may need to treat each other with a little bit more

mutual respect and not be so high and mighty in Downing Street. Let's

see how that works out. Thank you very much.

So yesterday's remarkable sequence of events, which saw

Theresa May installed as Prime Minister-in-waiting,

was triggered by the withdrawal of Andrew Leadsom from

She said she did not have enough support among MPs to head

I have, however, concluded that the interests of our country

are best-served by the immediate appointment of a strong and

I'm therefore withdrawing from the leadership election,

and I wish Theresa May the very greatest success.

It's thought Mrs Leadsom's withdrew in part because of the response

to an interview she gave with the Times on Saturday,

in which she said that having children meant she "had a very real

This appeared to many as an attempt to turn her motherhood

into an advantage over her childless rival, Mrs May.

Well, the journalist who conducted the interview, Rachel Sylvester,

writes today that Mrs Leadsom suffered from inexperience

Welcome to the Daily Politics. Do you agree that sure Saturday

interview Kilduff Andrea Leadsom's leadership ambitions? No, I am a

journalist and I don't kill off leadership ambitions. But it exposed

flaws in the candidacy that was there. It was the answer is that did

the damage, not the questions. And a lot of her colleagues were already

worrying about her lack of experience. And she had not been

tested in the pressure of the leadership campaign, and her lack of

experience showed quite quickly. What was going through your mind

when you ask those fairly open questions about motherhood when

Andrea Leadsom made the incendiary remark about having children giving

her a stake in the future of the country. First of all I asked her

what was the difference between you and Theresa May which was meant to

be an open-ended question the her to give a pitch. And then she spoke

about economic confidence, then she said she was an optimist and had a

large family, including her children. I then remembered that

during the EU referendum debates she often spoke as a mother. She talked

about it a lot. It was clearly part of her political identity, so it was

a logical question to ask if motherhood informs her politics. And

that was the answer she gave. Were you surprised? I was a bit shocked,

more on an emotional level because I thought that was quite hurtful thing

to to Theresa May. I didn't immediately think in political terms

it was incredibly damaging, I thought about it rather more

emotionally. I was surprised but then quickly the conversation moved

onto other things and we were talking about her policies other

aspects of the contest. But that was the bit that stuck in my mind. What

about other reasons, if you like, the other reasons she outlined when

she stood on the doorstep and read that letter. You said she wasn't

really prepared for the brutality of the campaign. Do you stand by that?

That it is brutal and somebody like her who is not media trained in that

sense is not going to survive? Yes, and it's not just about being media

trained, as Eric Pickles said, you have to go up against Vladimir Putin

and into negotiations with some of the most experienced negotiators

around Europe, the political poker players of the world. It's not just

about the media. You need a resilience if you're going to be

Prime Minister and you need good judgment and character. It's not

just about sure policies. What was your response when you heard that

Andrea Leadsom was pulling out of the race yesterday? I was delighted,

because I'm glad she's not Prime Minister. Not that I think that was

ever likely to happen. Your interview, I thought, was very

significant. I think people felt she westernised motherhood in a way that

was unacceptable. -- made motherhood a weapon. That showed her naivete.

She also bottled it, on top of being naive, she revealed herself to have

a bit of a glass jaw. I'm glad, politics aside, that she's not in

the race. But her supporter John Redwood yesterday said he admired

the fact that she was spun and optimistic and fresh. Are we now in

an era where you cannot have that? Perhaps maybe the Leader of the

Opposition, but certainly not to be leader and Prime Minister? It

depends what is unspun. Kenneth Clarke speaks his mind, even when he

was caught on the Mike unwittingly. Nobody minded. But it depends if the

unspun reveals that you do think motherhood gives you an advantage,

that is off-putting to some people, and I think the other point you

mentioned was there was a majority of MPs who were against and there

was a danger of a Jeremy Corbyn situation with the impasse between

the Parliamentary party in the country. What about the fact that

now we have Theresa May certainly becoming Prime Minister, but all of

the Leave candidates who stood for the contests have fallen by the

wayside, one way or another and the new leader, sceptical she may have

been about wanting to remain, she is the new leader without much effort.

It is extraordinary. You feel they led us to this situation and where

are they? The problem for Theresa May will be constant calls of

betrayal. She says Brexit is Brexit, but it can mean a million things. If

she negotiates some kind of deal that involves aspects of free

movement remaining immediately the pure Brexit campaign will get

incredibly cross. Why isn't there a Leave candidates still standing? I

voted to leave but I didn't vote for people. It was not a general

election where you voted to candidates with policies, I was

voting the something for what it said on the paper. It was rather

important to me that I was voting for something rather than people

because a lot of people I was voting alongside I didn't share much of

their politics in other ways. I think this demonstrated the truth of

that. We didn't vote for a set of people or policy, we voted to leave

or remain. Rachel Sylvester, thank you.

So from a leadership contest which has moved at lightning speed

to one which is travelling at little more than a snail's pace.

It's been more than two weeks since Labour Leader, Jeremy Corbyn,

began to be hit by a wave of Shadow Cabinet resignations,

and yesterday a challenger in the shape of Angela

But the fate of Mr Corbyn may hang on a meeting of Labour's ruling

Our reporter, Mark Lobel, is outside Labour HQ

Mark, what is happening? Not long to wait because in an hour and a half

the Labour National executive committee will meet at the Labour

headquarters behind me to determine whether Jeremy Corbyn automatically

gets on the leadership ballot or whether he has to get nominations

from 51 MPs and MEPs, which many say he would struggle to get. They would

also determine now the contest has been triggered by Angela Eagle, how

long other candidates have to throw their hat in the ring and also who

will be voting in the contest as we have registered supporters that were

crucial to Jeremy Corbyn's victory last time, and the people who paid

?3 last time, and that might go up, and how long they have to register

their support. Nobody wants to make predictions about anything these

days, which I understand, but do you think he will be on the ballot?

Let's explain what has to happen. Normally the ballot will be

interpreted by Labour Party rules but because it is such a divisive

contest as we have seen with a brick going through Angela Eagle's window,

the Labour Party general secretary decided to get legal advice. His

legal advice says that Jeremy Corbyn automatically would not get on the

ballot, but we have seen contrary advice from the unions and a member

of the NEC and they say they will challenge it in court. It is now

down to an NEC decision. They have to sit down amongst the group and

decide. I have gone through the 33 members what their public utterances

have been over the last few days, and Jeremy Corbyn would have a

majority of around five. The problem is, one person can't turn up today

and one will be late to the meeting and there is talk of a secret ballot

which would mean that some of the union backed members might vote

against how they publicly stated they would vote which is for Jeremy

Corbyn. Jeremy Corbyn is so rattled that he is coming down to the

meeting himself because he is a member and he has a vote about his

own future as well. Mark, it is agonising.

We're joined now by the former Shadow Education Secretary,

Lucy Powell, she resigned two weeks ago and is calling for

The NEC is meeting later on today and they will decide whether Jeremy

Corbyn is automatically on the ballot paper. Do you want to make a

plea to them to ensure he isn't? I personally feel will have nothing to

fear about Jeremy being on the ballot paper in the sense that I

think the support for him amongst the party membership is falling and

falling quickly indeed. If you look at the polling that is happening

amongst party members, trade union affiliates and what is coming up

from the grass roots. In my own constituency I have had many, many

e-mails and phone calls from people who voted for Jeremy last year who

now think it is untenable that he can continue without the support of

his Parliamentary colleagues. But what the NEC are deciding today is

not a political decision and it shouldn't be a political decision.

It is about the rules of the Labour Party. But they can be interpreted

either way, so it will be a political decision. I don't think

they can be interpreted either way, I think they are pretty clear. There

are two things I would point you to, one is the rule itself which says

where there is a vacancy is thereafter potential challengers and

in this case any nomination must be supported by 20%. But they are

talking about challengers, not the incumbent. If you look at the most

recent rule changes we made on the contest, the Collins review, it said

in recognition of the fact that the leader of the Labour Party has a

special duty to head the Parliamentary Labour Party in

Westminster, MPs will retain the responsibility of deciding the final

short list of candidates that will be put to the ballot. As I say,

whilst I would be confident of any contest, I think our forefathers and

those that drew up the constitution, including many trade union leaders

would have never imagined a circumstance where the leader of the

Labour Party was seeking to continue on the basis of having less than 20%

support of his MPs. So the NEC are today being asked to make an

exceptional, political decision to put him on the ballot paper

automatically. Why should he be on that ballot paper automatically in

this case if those are the rules? We can either talk about the legal

stuff all we can talk about a different angle, which is to say

that if he is not on it it will look like an enormous stitch up to a lot

of people. It will look like a stitch up because there are a lot of

people out there who want to vote for him, maybe the majority of

Labour members who want to vote for him. Least -- Lucy Powell says its

diminishing. Well, let's test it. Everyone should agree, if that's the

case, supporters of Jeremy like myself, if there is a vote and he

loses, he loses and that is a way of uniting the party around a new

candidate. If, however, you don't put him, not you, plural, and the

PLP has a responsibility, and if he is not on the ballot there will be

the most enormous crisis for the Labour Party. There is a crisis now.

The Labour Party might well split, because there will be people like me

from the left of the party who would feel that basically they are not

wanted in the party. That the socialist alternative is not really

required, and we will feel unable to continue to be a part of the Labour

Party. Is that a risk you are willing to take? It's not my

decision. But you could come out and say put him on the ballot paper. I

agree with your sentiment that this is better resolved in a different

way. All I am saying is, we have to take some of the heat out of the

situation. The NEC, who are an elected body of the Labour Party,

are there to uphold the rules. They may well choose, and Jerry May has

many more supporters on the NEC than dope supported -- Jeremy. They may

take an exceptional decision to put him on the ballot paper and I

believe in that contest Jeromy is likely to lose in any case. You are

speaking in favour of that, being on the ballot for political reasons?

I think the NEC's job is to uphold the rules and the rules are clear

Would you be in ( favour of... . I have nothing to fear about him being

on the ballot people but I feel those who are out this morning,

bullying and mob rule, throwing bricks through people's windows and

having demonstrations outside the ne. C meeting, against elected

members of the NEC, who are there to make a perfectly rational and

judicial dedecision about the rules of Labour Party, should be able to

do that in their own way, not have political interference from me for

Giles. We have had MPs on here, anecdotally talking about

intimidation from Jeremy Corbyn's supporters, talks of treachery and

betrayal and then Len McCluskey saying, actually in his mind, if his

mind Jeremy Corbyn has been dealt with by a lifrnl mob, bullying and

bludgeoning. Two things. The brick is unacceptable. When it turns into

any sort of physical violence, it is entirely and utterly unacceptable.

You I will say that three or four times to make that clear but

actually demonstrations are not unacceptable. Making your views

known are not unacceptable. Making your views known passionately is not

unacceptal. You say there will be a large section of the membership,

perhaps the majority, that will be very, very unhappy. And it is

difficult to quantify. But it isn't it true that in order to lead a

political party under the system we have, you must have the confidence

of the parliamentary party. You are a shadow Government, the idea is you

are preparing for Government. You are not leading a movement in that

strict sense of the word. Isn't that how our parliamentary democracy

works? Maybe we are in a process of relinement. There are all sorts of

problems about MPs and members and the people themselves that are out

of whack with each other. And it could be that the Labour Party is,

itself, heading for a split, where there are parts of the Labour Party

that seem very, very close to what Theresa May was saying - workers on

the boards, and so forth. The whole idea that that is close to Ed

Miliband is true. So there is a part of the Labour Party which would be

more comfortable in the left of the Tory Party, and they seem to be a

long, long way away from socialism, as I understand it, as traditionally

conceived. I think the Labour Party may well not hold together. . That's

not me and the vast majority of Labour. That's not me. Do you think

it'll stick together? I joined the Labour Party when I was 15, under

Margaret Thatcher. I lived in Manchester, at a comprehensive

school. I saw what happened to my country under Margaret Thatcher and

my friends who had no life chance at all. I'm not going anywhere. This is

my Labour Party, as much as it is anybody else's. But I think we have

a tradition in our party which is clearly exemplified in the rules of

the Labour Party, where you have to, as a leader, both lead the

parliamentary party as well as the wider membership. I think we can

move forward from this with a candidate who holds true to our

values of our socialist roots, while at the same time uniting both

aspects of the party. Are you batting Angela Eagle or Owen Smith?

Personally I think Owen would stand a better chance of beating Jeremy

Corbyn. I think we need a generational shift but Angela has

showed herself to be gutsy and ballsy. I will back whoever comes

top of that. That is a Powell from Jeremy Corbyn

on the subject of the brick that was thrown through the constituency

office. "It is disturbing that Angela Eagle has been the victim of

a threatening act and that other MPs are receiving abuse and threats. As

someone who has also received death threats this week and previously I'm

calling on all Labour Party members and supporters to act with calm and

treat each other with respect and dignity, even where there is a

disagreement. I utterly condemn any violence or threats which undermine

democracy within our party and have no palatial in our politics, thank

you." Now. Does anybody fancy another

general election? We had one only last May -

you might remember the Conservatives won a surprise majority -

but with a new Prime Minister set to be installed there have been

calls from opposition parties for Theresa May to go

to the country. But how do the voting public feel

about the idea of another Greetings from Croydon,

where it's stopped raining just long enough for us to ask the great

British public when the next general Now, or in 2020, as it

says under the law. They need to get the ball rolling

for Brexit first. She's going to be the next Prime

Minister. Excited

by that? I think it with strengthen her hand

if she did have a general election. At the end of the day, they voted

for a party, not one person, so whether it is Cameron leading it

or May leading it, I I think it would be better

for the country to get it over and done with -

do it now. Do you not think the country has had

enough of voting already? Well, if the weather carries

on like this, during Theresa May's Premiership,

she'll have to wear much There's a mum explaining to her son

what's happening - he's living through a great moment in

political history. We are getting a new Prime Minister,

should we have a new general Why are

you laughing? I think they should wait

because more people can then make Yes, and give her a bit of time

to have done something. Put it in the 2020 box

and I'll hold the pram. Do you think she should

have a general election? I think so, yes, because a lot

of people in this country aren't happy with the whole Brexit

scenario that happened. They had a vote but because it was

so close a lot of people felt that it was kind of -

they wanted it to be Time for the big reveal under

the Daily Politics' umbrella. Look, a bulk of people in Croydon

think there should be a general Now, where are those

Daily Politics' towels? Well, the weather was unkind there

for Adam Fleming testing the public. Well, we're joined now by Lib Dem

president Sal Brinton, who is calling for an early general

election, and by the Conservative MP Sal Brinton, the Liberal Democrats

wanted the fixed term Parliament Act why chapg your mind in No, there is

provision to call an election. Clear cry tieria, 65% of MPs or in the

event of a vote of no confidence and 14 days, for exactly the reason we

are in now. When there is a major change in the country, the

referendum was the biggest decision this country has made in decades and

Frank lit Conservative manifesto voted on last year, most has gone

out of the window. Stability has gone, Osborne has gone away from

austerity. All of those reasons, a new Prime Minister, needs a new

mandate, not least for the plans for Brexit. She was a Remainor, the UK

has voted to leave. She has only been elected Prime Minister for your

colleagues. I voted guest the nonsense of the fixed term

Parliament Act at second and that I had reading and it was the Liberal

Democrats who were behind it but the truth is we have had three changes

of Prime Minister in my lifetime, Wilson Callaghan, Thatcher-Major and

Blair hop Brown all three parliaments ran for five years, so

there is no constitutional precedent. But as you remember,

Gordon Brown was always said to have regretted that decision, certainly

of having marched everyone to the top of the hill and in the calling

that election and having a popular mandate. But he was promoting an

early general election, Theresa May isn't, if she's talking about going

to 2020. Isn't that the case, if she quells any talk of an early general

election, then at least she will have settled the decision. It will

be interesting to see if she can do that. Your popular vote on the

streets of Croydon was showing there was a strong momentum at the moment

-- people saying, where are we standing at the moment, where are we

going to do Go? Let's not forget in 2007, it was Theresa May who called

for Gordon Brown who have an election because he had no mandate.

Right. I mean, is now the right time? Absolutely not. Theresa May

has to get on and do stu. I think the Liberal Democrats are sore

losers about the referendum and they are just looking for a way to turn

the clock back and try and weedle their way out of a very clear

decision that the country made. And, so, I think basically we have to get

on and do it. The country has spoken and what Theresa May's big job is,

is to implement what the will of the British people is. We have had

enough uncertainty. It isn't just the Liberal Democrats. Labour were

calling for it earlier today as well. I'm not sure about Labour,

that Labour universally... I don't think Jeremy Corbyn in his heart or

hearts or even his heart wants a general election. Some of the MPs

might. The point surely is whether the new Prime Minister has a man it

do and we -- a mandate and we and many other politicians are

concerned. We don't elect Prime Ministers, we elect governments.

This is why I voted guest the be a. Are you regretting that? No

emergency provision is there for this decision where the country has

made the biggest decision in decades. The landscape has changed.

Would it be better to wait until we have a clear idea at least at to

what the renegotiation might look like, so not now, but maybe 18

months' time. We are saying an election for a mandate, we are not

saying next week but clearly, at the moment, we have a Prime Minister

coming in tomorrow. There is no clear Brexit plan and, whats' more,

the economy has changed. -- what's more. This is shouting, fire, fire.

It is nottage emergency situation, we require not people shouting fire,

we require people having calm heads, getting on and implementing what the

will of the British people was and it was pretty clear Can you tell us

what it is? Yes, leave the European Union. It was there on the paper. It

is not that simple, it is all the detail. Which has to be worked out.

Would it strengthen her negotiation position in terms of Brexit... She

is not going to have a general election. She would have to persuade

Conservative Party colleagues to have a vote of no confidence in her.

You don't think they would do that. How ridiculous would that be, she is

about to become Prime Minister and within a couple of weeks we have a

vote of no confidence. People should have thought about this when they

passed the fixed-term Parliament Act. All I would say is that over

the last few weeks, things have changed dramatically, events, events

dear boy. There was only a general election last year But things have

changed really fundamentally. They have changed. Well, we are going to

change Prime Minister. Thank you both for coming on to the programme.

There is just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

David Cameron appeared to forget he still had a microphone on after

delivering a brief statement in Downing Street yesterday.

The question was what did he do as he walked back into number 10?

Was it A) mutter 'Caribbean here we come'.

or Dd) ask Sam to open a bottle of something cold?

Open somethingcold. No let's have a look.

You may not recognise it. Do you have any ideas what it might have

been? It certainly wasn't the tune you have there. There are way too

many notes in T What do you think? He sound the upbeat and - I've got

out. He is going home and going to enjoy himself. Well, go on then. He

is probably going to the Caribbean as well. And probably opened a

bottle of something. Well thank you for being my guest of the day, Giles

and to all my guests. The One O'Clock News is starting on BBC One.

We will be back at 11.30pm tomorrow for the last Prime Minister's

Questions for David Cameron. Goodbye.