12/07/2016 Daily Politics


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics and Westminster,


where today David Cameron is completing his last


He's been meeting his cabinet for the last time, while Theresa May


is preparing to take over as prime minister after a dramatic end


to the Conservative Party leadership election.


Theresa May says she's honoured and humbled to be


chosen to lead the nation, and she's pledged to make a success


But who will get the top jobs in her government,


David Cameron is packing his bags at Downing Street months earlier


We'll be discussing the legacy of his time in office


and asking will it be defined by his decision to call


With the Conservative leadership election over, Labour is about to


get going. I'm here at that party HQ ahead of a crunch meeting that could


determine Jeremy Corbyn's fate. Some parties are calling


for a general election now, but will Theresa May


wait until 2020? We find out if the public is ready


to go back to the polls. All that in the next hour,


and with us for the whole of the programme today,


it's the Church of England priest So where else can we begin other


than with the news that Theresa May is to be the next prime minister


of the United Kingdom? Her rise to the top job,


which is due to formally take place tomorrow, was triggered


by David Cameron's failure to win the EU referendum,


and she was helped along the way by her Brexit-supporting


rivals falling aside. This morning, Theresa May attended


David Cameron's last cabinet at Downing Street,


and will now be working on her first speech as prime minister


and deciding who to appoint One of the biggest questions


is who she'll appoint to the second most important job,


that of Chancellor of the Exchequer, and how she will put together


a cabinet that united those who supported a vote to leave


and a vote to remain Much has been made of the fact she


is Britain's second woman Prime Minister and I suppose that is still


a big deal. It is a huge deal. But the great thing is that women since


been taking over all around the world. We might have a female


President of the United States and we will have Angela Merkel and in


Scotland, and we really are being run by women, and it's great to have


that male dominance broken. While she has risen to the top, David


Cameron is packing his bags and leaving. It's hard to believe that


he was elected with a Tory majority, the first since 1992, just last


year. What are your thoughts on that? This morning I thought, how


can you do it so quickly? How do you leave so quickly? The poor man, two


days ago, was leisurely imagining he had a while to go and now he has to


get out. We are going to have to pause and think about what his


legacy is. The Brexit thing may or may not dominate it. It will, went


it? But there will be other things we can look back on with David


Cameron 's time. We can think a bit more broadly about what he has done,


the good things he has done and the things he's not done so well. You


wouldn't put it simply you are pleased to see him go, you have some


sympathy? No, I'm pleased to see him go and I'm pleased to see the end of


the bowling than club politics, and the wave of austerity that he


represented -- Bullingdon club. He said he wanted to be a one nation


Tory, and he that and maybe Theresa May will be that.


Tomorrow will be David Cameron's final appearance at Prime


Minister's Questions, after which he will visit the Queen


Soon after that, Theresa May will make the same journey


to Buckingham Palace, before she heads to 10


Downing Street to take over as the second female prime minister


So what's going to be high on her list of priorities?


Theresa May's first task tomorrow evening will be to appoint people


to the other Great Offices of State: Chancellor, Foreign Secretary,


Other senior ministerial appointments will likely trickle out


on Thursday as the Cabinet reshuffle continues.


Although some are suggesting she should seek a mandate


from the country, she has explicitly said there should be no general


Having vowed that 'Brexit means Brexit', her first task will be


to step up negotiations with other EU countries,


which have in some cases already begun.


She's previously said that Article 50, formally announcing the UK's


intention to leave the bloc, will not be triggered until next


To assist in unravelling the UK-EU relationship,


a new department for Brexit will be set up in Whitehall.


The new Prime Minister's first big moment on the international stage


will come at the G20 summit in September.


But leaving the EU is not Theresa May's only focus -


there's the vote on Trident renewal next Monday.


The upcoming decision on whether or not to expand


Heathrow, which she is thought to oppose, and a platform of social


and economic reform outlined in her leadership speech this week.


Yesterday, Theresa May gave a statement setting


out the principles that would guide her as Prime Minister.


Brexit means Brexit and we're going to make a success of it.


Second, we need to unite our country, and third,


we need a strong, new, positive vision for


A vision of a country that works, not for the privileged few,


but that works for every one of us, because we're going to give people


And that's how, together, we will build a better Britain.


Let's talk now to our assistant political editor Norman Smith,


Well, let's talk more about Theresa May's rise to the top


with the historian Vernon Bogdanor and the Conservative Damian Green,


a friend of Mrs May's since university.


First, Vernon, just a sense of the occasion in terms of the history of


a new Prime Minister, a female Prime Minister comic at the beginning of a


new parliament. -- coming at the beginning. There is no requirement


to have the general election with a new Prime Minister but the character


of the government is often determined by a Prime Minister and


many thought that when Gordon Brown succeeded Tony Blair in 2007 he


ought to have had an election. The last new Prime Minister have an


election, you have to go back to 1955 when Anthony Eden, who had been


Prime Minister for three weeks, he called an election and was rewarded


with an increased majority. The situation this time is rather


different. The House of Commons was elected last year, and has shown to


be quite unrepresentative of the British public. Although there is no


constitutional requirement for an election there is a democratic


requirement for an election and that's a problem that Theresa May


might face given that she was a Remains a porter. We will come back


to that in a moment. -- a remain supporter.


Let's talk now to our assistant political editor Norman Smith,


he's in Downing Street where I understand the removal men


And I see you witnessed the arrivals and departures at the final cabinet.


There were some cameos in the street. The most interesting one was


Philip Hammond, the Foreign Secretary, who could become


Chancellor soon, but when he left and he asked how it went, he said so


so. What he meant is that it was a poignant moment. Because here you


have the Prime Minister in effect saying his farewells when only a


year ago he dragged his party from the clutches of a hung parliament


into government. So obviously a poignant moment. Nicky Morgan, when


she came out said there had been lots of lovely tributes to Mr


Cameron. Theresa May, when she came out, she strode in that direction


but was going to the wrong ministerial car and then headed in


that direction to get in the correct ministerial car so maybe people will


be hoping she's a bit more decisive in government. But she had the silly


me moment on the steps of Downing Street. That will probably be on the


front pages of the papers tomorrow. Old habits die hard. It has been


quite quick, the speed of transition. We were also told the


removal men had arrived and I'm not sure if we had a shot of it. But


it's happening so quickly this handover. It is. The removal van is


parked the other side and all of the snappers have their long telephoto


lenses to catch a couple of men in overalls carting a sofa about, but


it is so brutal and it is happening so fast. So Theresa May now has to


slam together her government remarkably quickly. And the


difficulty for her is that this is such a fundamental decision for her,


the people she has around her, the message she sends out but she has to


do it incredibly quickly. The only plus side apart from the fact that


she doesn't have to go through a protracted leadership contest is


that she at least has some breathing space to work out how she will


approach these Brexit negotiations. She has a bit more than two months


before the negotiations get under way in the autumn. On the one hand,


the fact everything is happening quickly is huge pressure in that she


has to appoint people quickly, but on the other hand it does give her


back critical breathing space to think about how she's going to


address Brexit which, let's be honest, is probable you going to


define her Premiership. Although she said the other day about setting her


own agenda, you can't help feeling that make or break for her will be


Brexit. Norman Smith, thank you. Damian Green, the make or break will


be the cabinet. Who should she appoint to the top jobs? She will


want to find a balance and clearly she has already said she is setting


up a new department to negotiate the Brexit terms and that will be led by


someone who voted to leave. She said Brexit will mean Brexit, so that


clearly means one of the key appointments. But like any incoming


Prime Minister I'm sure she will want to create a balance of


personalities, regional backgrounds, all kinds of things. Will it be an


onus on her to put a lever in the position of Chancellor, for example?


Philip Hammond has been talked about as a possible contender for the


role. He was a Remain voter. Will that be beneficial to the party? The


party will want a government that takes up the reins quickly and shows


a continuing competence. Clearly the whole Brexit negotiation is going to


be one of the most important things on the next few years but it's not


the only thing. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, what you want is a


degree of economic competence in a time where the global economy seems


to be slowing down. In terms of the critical importance of who will be


in the cabinet, you said, just before we went to Norman Smith, that


it will be critically important that she marks her credentials in terms


of leaving the EU. What does she have to do? The referendum shows


that what happens outside Parliament is becoming more important that --


than what happens in Parliament or the Cabinet. She has to reassure the


country that the decision taken by the public, which I think is not


just a decision to leave the European Union but a decision to


control immigration from the European Union, she has to show that


that decision is carried out, and more generally that the views of


people in the public who seem not to be listened to that their views are


taken into account. I think there is a huge gap not between the political


parties, but between the political class in general and the public that


were shown by the referendum. You are nodding. This is about the


disconnect clearly demonstrated during the referendum. How can she


do that? It's also about the fact that we are a divided country. We


have been revealed as a country with huge and deep divisions. Those who


were the beneficiaries of globalisation and those who were


left behind, those are clear. There is a huge task for a one nation Tory


to do exactly that, to bring everybody together, so people in


parts of the country where they feel profoundly unattended to to be


listened to and taken notice of. She was seen, certainly by the Liberal


Democrats and the coalition, as hard line on immigration but she used a


phrase in the contest saying she would have control of free movement.


Now you could argue you either have control or you have free movement,


you can't have both. I agree with Vernon that one of the messages was


that the old system of free movement we had from the rest of the European


Union cannot carry on. Clearly there needs to be a big enough change that


people will notice the change. But there could be some freedom of


movement still? We are getting into semantics. You don't want to close


the borders become North Korea. We were one skilled workers coming from


Europe as we do the rest of the world, and getting the balance right


is clearly the key while preserving as many of the economic advantages


of our access to the single market as we can. That will be the nub of


the negotiations and where you land on that spectrum will be hugely


important. Coming from somewhere like the Home


Office, where she has been an awfully long time, the longest Home


Secretary, not many people have made the leap from Home Secretary to


Prime Minister. I think the last one was Winston Churchill, although he


had a number of intermediate posts on the way. But as you imply, tans r


an extraordinarily difficult department to run. - it is an


extraordinarily difficult department to run. Probably one of the most


defendant in Whitehall. She has avoided all the snares. It is a very


good achievement. She hasn't been frightened to take on important


pressure groups, such as the police. She has dealt very firmly, I believe


with the issue of police corruption. Right, what about then, setting out


when she's going to invoke Article 50. That's will be what a lot of the


pro-Brexit Tory MPs will want to hear and they'll want it hear it,


soon? Wasn't Jim Callaghan Home Secretary? You are absolutely right.


I plead guilty. Good for you, I wasn't going to.


On that issue of Article 50. When does she need to say it I think what


she said was sensible, Britain needs to know what its negotiating stance


is. There is no point in invoking article 50, with the deadline before


you have your own ducks in a row. She suggested in one of the speeches


she made when she launched the leadership campaign that she thought


the end of this year, beginning of next year, would be the right time,


so we have the autumn to decide what are the important things for us to


start the negotiations, rather than start the negotiations before you


know what your negotiating stance is. Do you think that will 's be


enough for people who wanted the UK to leave the UK, that negotiations


don't start immediately? It doesn't matter whether it is quick enough or


not. I don't think he will with' have another election. There will be


those who think that Article 50 will be invoked immediately but a


sensible way of doing things is to get your ducks in a reand prepare


for what you are going to do. -- ducks in a row. People have to


ensure people Brexit means Brexit, that's what she is going to do and


she has done that, those of us who are enthusiastic levers will be


reassured that's where she is going, but now I think she has a it of


about time to do it properly. I think it is OK. It is not just about


Brexit. As you said, there are other things she will want to do the and


the rest of Government to deal with. We mentioned Trident at the


beginning. But some of the things she mentioned. She said the


Conservative Party must be at the service of Conservative Party,


putting workers on board, capping executive pay, sound like be Ed


Miliband's Labour manifesto? Well, a small overlap. It was a big part of


what he was saying at the time One of the differences between Theresa


May and Ed Miliband, is she gets things done. She's shown that as


Home Secretary, when she says she is going to do something, it happens.


That was the fear people had about Ed Miliband. I do think yesterday's


speech, it feels like about three weeks ago, actually it was only


yesterday morning she was making that speech. So much has happened


since then. It was a very interesting modernisation of the


Conservative One Nation agenda, actually talking about the problems


and we have talked about it already, the disconnect a lot of people feel


from the prosperity that some are having, actually dealing with one of


those things which are some excesses of boardroom pay in some companies.


And doing something about that is an important part of a message of


pulling the country together again. But what about her economic pitch?


That seems to be differing from David Cameron and George Osborne,


obviously Dutching the idea of reaching a surplus by 2020, less


austerity. Do you agree with that, too? I do. I think it is realistic,


regardless of the economic effects on us of the Brexit vote. You didn't


believe the manifesto you were elected on? I believed it then. What


has happened since then is that the world economy has slowed down and


any sensible Chancellor reacts to changing circumstances, as Kenyes


said, when the facts change I change my mind, what do you do? The facts


are changes in the world economy, so giving yourself some leeway on


getting deficit down to zero seemed sensible. George Osborne adopted


that as well. Are you wait big your phone for a job offer? I can do the


maths. Even on the first ballot there was something like 160-odd


people who voted for Theresa and far fewer jobs than that in Government.


I'm sure the Palace of Westminster is deeply tense at the moment but a


lot of people are always disappointed at this time. But you


are hopeful? I'm an etenter optimist but also a reist and I have been


around long enough to know that one should go through politics wary. I


would put you up. You would. Well you were close to Theresa May.


David Cameron appeared to forget he still had a microphone


on after delivering a brief statement outside


He won't be the first or last politicians to do that.


The question for today is what did he do as he walked


Was it a) mutter "Caribbean here we come"?


Or D) ask Sam to open a bottle of something cold?


At the end of the show, Giles will give


Until the surprise announcement that Theresa May was to be elected


as Conservative leader unopposed, David Cameron had expected


to stand down as Prime Minister in early September,


finishing his term in office with a final meeting of the G20


He had hoped, of course, to see out his third term before handing


over to his successor, but the failure of his campaign


to remain in the EU made that impossible.


Let's have a listen to him speaking yesterday.


I'm delighted that we're not going to have a prolonged Conservative


I think Andrea Leadsom has made absolutely the right decision to


stand aside and it is clear Theresa May has the overwhelming


support of the Conservative parliamentary party.


I'm also delighted that Theresa May will be the next Prime Minister.


She's more than able to provide the leadership our country


is going to need in the years ahead and she will have my full support.


Obviously with the changes, we now don't need to have a prolonged


period of transition and so, tomorrow, I will chair my


On Wednesday I will attend the House of Commons for Prime Minister'


Questions and after that, I expect to go to the Palace


So we will have a new Prime Minister in that building behind me by


To discuss David Cameron and his legacy we're


joined by Sam Gyimah, he's a Conservative minister


and served as Mr Cameron's principal private secretary,


and by the journalist Tim Montgomerie.


Welcome to you both. Sam Gyimah, he will only be remembered for one


thing, Europe and failing to keep Britain in the EU which is what he


campaigned for? . I think it is incredible unfair. It is obviously


down to historians to dissect everything that happened, but I


think the two big things about David Cameron's leadership. Firstly, we


forget when David Cameron became leader of the Conservative Party,


how unpopular the party had become. In 1997 we were decimated in that


election by Tony Blair. David Cameron became Prime Minister and


led the party into Government for the first time in 18 years and then


a majority Conservative Government for the first time in 23 years. What


for me was remarkable about that particular achievement is he did


that by also changing the party. In Government, I think he's also


achieved a lot. He wanted to be the Prime Minister, he was all about


sunny uplands but ended up being a Prime Minister who wanted to perform


an economic rescue mission. It is still in progress but he did a great


job on that. Is it true to say that actually some of the good things


that Sam Gyimah thinks he did, will just be wiped out by the memory of


Brexit and the EU referendum? I'm afraid so. He did do good things.


Hitting the 0.7% target on foreign aid, for example. Same sex marriage


were real achievements but of course he will be remembered for the


European referendum defeat, which I welcome the result, but that will


define how he is seen. I think he should also be remembered for some


of the things he Assaidi he would do in Government, like eliminate the


deficit. Well, we are only half way there to that and we have a


misshapen state as well. He said he would control immigration and he


certainly hasn't done that. There have been really important things,


like schools reform and welcome reform, but if you evaluate him on


the principled economic mission that he himself said was the Conservative


Party's to achieve and deliver, he is way off target. I think when you


have more people in work than ever before in our country today t didn't


happen by accident. It -- it didn't happen by accident. It happened


because he and George Osborne had an economic plan that has delivered. It


is still work in progress but let's not forget that we had one of the


worst recessions in the world. We had the biggest banking bailout in


the world. Maybe we were overoptimistic in terms of how


quickly it could be turned around. They failed in their main mission to


eliminate the deficit, didn't they? Not at all. We stood on an election


platform that we would be doing it by the end of this Parliament? And


now announced they won't do it by the end of this Parliament. Not


missed by a year or two, it is missed by a whole Parliament and


more, Sam. Wherever you stand on the Brexit debate, Leave or Remain you


have to understand we are in a situation where there is serious


economic uncertainty and that means that the likelihood of meeting those


targets by the end of the Parliament... Are you saying it was


only because of the Brexit vote you are missing the targets. Were you


really going to hit the surplus budget that George Osborne set


whether we remained or left the EU? I think there was a serious


programme to deliver that in terms of welfare reform and public


accepting cuts, and there was a serious plan, confident. What do you


think broadly in temples dealing with the coalition, and dealing with


the recession, didn't David Cameron lead the country through that


recession and out the other side I think one of his definite


achievements was to hold that Coalition Government together. I


suspect when that coalition was formed at the beginning of the last


Parliament, most pundits thought it would collapse during the five


years. It is a huge tribute to Nick Clegg and David Cameron that they


made it work. I think it is also significant, though, and this is why


Iain Duncan Smith resigned a few months ago, once the Liberal


Democrats were no longer holding George Osborne and David Cameron


back, you saw cuts in the Budget that more of affected the poor. So


this that the rich were getting tax cuts and the poor were still getting


austerity that. Didn't happen quite the same under the Liberal


Democrats. I think it is interesting that Theresa May, in her speech


yesterday, repudiating a lot of George Osborne's economic policy and


said - there must be a much greater bias to the people at the bottom end


of the income spectre. It is ironic, having won a majority, the fist one


since 1992, that David Cameron is leaving a year later, under the


coalition, somehow they managed better. Well, he called a


referendum. He recommended Remain. Was that a mistake? I think we got


to a place where there had to be a referendum on Europe. The settlement


was not acceptable. He called it, he recommended Remain, the country


voted the other way. I think it was the right course of action for him,


to leave. I am a proud Conservative. We introduced the national living


wage. When Tim talks about affecting the poor. That national living wage


is a huge achievement, and one that many people never expected a


Conservative Government to introduce. And the reason we can


talk about ourselves today as a One Nation Government and not get


laughed out of the room... Is it One Nation when the country is divided?


You should get laughed out of the room for that. There was a huge


banking crisis in which the country was screwed over by the banks and


David Cameron and his Government stood full square behind the banks,


when many parts of this country suffered and actually, in the end,


it was probably that that did for him. There are places like


Sunderland and Hartlepool, these first places that we remember, that


came in with huge majorities for Leave, these are people who feel


completely angry and unattended to and it is, and it is very, very - in


part it is David Cameron's fault that has happened. Come on, Giles.


The deindustrialisation in the North and some of these problems are


decades in the making. To somehow say today that because RBS was


rescued - and it had to be rescued - is why we have had problems there,


is simply untrue. I think you are right to say the referendum has


pointed to lots of parts of our country where there is a need to


make sure that the country works for everyone. It was a rejection, wasn't


it, of David Cameron wholesale, that bricts vote to some extent. Do you


think it undermined his whole project? I think if he had been a


popular who had the authority and people felt he was governing for the


whole nation, he wouldn't have lost the referendum. The great


opportunity for the Conservatives now, is we haven't just voted to


leave the European Union, we voted for a reset of our politics. I think


that begins for a if he cows on the North that's what we are talking


about. -- begins for a focus. The northern powerhouse, and as


Theresa May said yesterday, it was too focussed on Manchester and the


North West, Sunderland, plenty other places have been neglected and an


idea that they borrow ?100 billion, targeted on #23r5 infrastructure, I


hope Theresa May accepts that. Why did he win in 2015? The referendum


was not about David Cameron, the referendum was because a lot of


people felt they weren't being listened to and they weren't being


listened to, particularly by distant bureaucrats on Brussels and spe


specificically issues like immigration. It wasn't a referendum


on David Cameron, who won an unexpected majority a year ago. I


think it was also very lucky, in his opposition. That has to be said. --


he was lucky. The Labour Party is still going through trials and


tribelations and was lucky in his opponents. If he had a more


effective opposition, it would be been completely different. History.


If something else had happened? If we look at some of the things you


mention in terms of social reform, gay marriage, school reform, prison


reform under way. Maybe parts of the party didn't like t welfare reform,


NHS reform, not everyone supported these things, he was trying to be a


moderniser within the Conservative Party. Wasn't he?


There was that cover of the Economist where Cameron have the


Mohican and punk haircut. But have they been a bit more focused on the


core objectives like deficit reduction, they might have achieved


more of what they needed to achieve and they actually became slightly


distracted government in its early years. Will MPs miss David Cameron


personally, do you think? I will miss him personally, I was his


private secretary and I didn't know him before I became an MP and I was


in his inner circle and saw him working close. I will miss him


tremendously and a lot of Conservative in the 20 15th and 2010


intake, they know they are in Parliament today because of David


Cameron. He delivered electoral success that is why they can be MPs


representing their constituents. Because he wasn't seen as somebody


that popular in the Parliamentary party in all sections. There was a


distance and aloofness between himself and the party. You were one


of the conduits between the office and the MPs. Is that fair? I was


popular when I have that job. I bet you were. Everybody wanted to talk


to me. During the coalition in particular, Number ten had to make a


big effort to make sure it was connected with the Parliamentary


party. What you had was Nick Clegg, Danny Alexander, David Cameron and


George Osborne, they would thrash out ideas, announce them and then


the Parliamentary party felt disconnected. There needed to be a


doubling down so the Parliamentary party was plugged in. There were a


range of people, if you crossed David Cameron wants, you are out. He


was quite an unforgiving Prime Minister to his critics. Theresa


May, I hope, won't repeat that mistake. The Tories only have a


majority of 12 may need to treat each other with a little bit more


mutual respect and not be so high and mighty in Downing Street. Let's


see how that works out. Thank you very much.


So yesterday's remarkable sequence of events, which saw


Theresa May installed as Prime Minister-in-waiting,


was triggered by the withdrawal of Andrew Leadsom from


She said she did not have enough support among MPs to head


I have, however, concluded that the interests of our country


are best-served by the immediate appointment of a strong and


I'm therefore withdrawing from the leadership election,


and I wish Theresa May the very greatest success.


It's thought Mrs Leadsom's withdrew in part because of the response


to an interview she gave with the Times on Saturday,


in which she said that having children meant she "had a very real


This appeared to many as an attempt to turn her motherhood


into an advantage over her childless rival, Mrs May.


Well, the journalist who conducted the interview, Rachel Sylvester,


writes today that Mrs Leadsom suffered from inexperience


Welcome to the Daily Politics. Do you agree that sure Saturday


interview Kilduff Andrea Leadsom's leadership ambitions? No, I am a


journalist and I don't kill off leadership ambitions. But it exposed


flaws in the candidacy that was there. It was the answer is that did


the damage, not the questions. And a lot of her colleagues were already


worrying about her lack of experience. And she had not been


tested in the pressure of the leadership campaign, and her lack of


experience showed quite quickly. What was going through your mind


when you ask those fairly open questions about motherhood when


Andrea Leadsom made the incendiary remark about having children giving


her a stake in the future of the country. First of all I asked her


what was the difference between you and Theresa May which was meant to


be an open-ended question the her to give a pitch. And then she spoke


about economic confidence, then she said she was an optimist and had a


large family, including her children. I then remembered that


during the EU referendum debates she often spoke as a mother. She talked


about it a lot. It was clearly part of her political identity, so it was


a logical question to ask if motherhood informs her politics. And


that was the answer she gave. Were you surprised? I was a bit shocked,


more on an emotional level because I thought that was quite hurtful thing


to to Theresa May. I didn't immediately think in political terms


it was incredibly damaging, I thought about it rather more


emotionally. I was surprised but then quickly the conversation moved


onto other things and we were talking about her policies other


aspects of the contest. But that was the bit that stuck in my mind. What


about other reasons, if you like, the other reasons she outlined when


she stood on the doorstep and read that letter. You said she wasn't


really prepared for the brutality of the campaign. Do you stand by that?


That it is brutal and somebody like her who is not media trained in that


sense is not going to survive? Yes, and it's not just about being media


trained, as Eric Pickles said, you have to go up against Vladimir Putin


and into negotiations with some of the most experienced negotiators


around Europe, the political poker players of the world. It's not just


about the media. You need a resilience if you're going to be


Prime Minister and you need good judgment and character. It's not


just about sure policies. What was your response when you heard that


Andrea Leadsom was pulling out of the race yesterday? I was delighted,


because I'm glad she's not Prime Minister. Not that I think that was


ever likely to happen. Your interview, I thought, was very


significant. I think people felt she westernised motherhood in a way that


was unacceptable. -- made motherhood a weapon. That showed her naivete.


She also bottled it, on top of being naive, she revealed herself to have


a bit of a glass jaw. I'm glad, politics aside, that she's not in


the race. But her supporter John Redwood yesterday said he admired


the fact that she was spun and optimistic and fresh. Are we now in


an era where you cannot have that? Perhaps maybe the Leader of the


Opposition, but certainly not to be leader and Prime Minister? It


depends what is unspun. Kenneth Clarke speaks his mind, even when he


was caught on the Mike unwittingly. Nobody minded. But it depends if the


unspun reveals that you do think motherhood gives you an advantage,


that is off-putting to some people, and I think the other point you


mentioned was there was a majority of MPs who were against and there


was a danger of a Jeremy Corbyn situation with the impasse between


the Parliamentary party in the country. What about the fact that


now we have Theresa May certainly becoming Prime Minister, but all of


the Leave candidates who stood for the contests have fallen by the


wayside, one way or another and the new leader, sceptical she may have


been about wanting to remain, she is the new leader without much effort.


It is extraordinary. You feel they led us to this situation and where


are they? The problem for Theresa May will be constant calls of


betrayal. She says Brexit is Brexit, but it can mean a million things. If


she negotiates some kind of deal that involves aspects of free


movement remaining immediately the pure Brexit campaign will get


incredibly cross. Why isn't there a Leave candidates still standing? I


voted to leave but I didn't vote for people. It was not a general


election where you voted to candidates with policies, I was


voting the something for what it said on the paper. It was rather


important to me that I was voting for something rather than people


because a lot of people I was voting alongside I didn't share much of


their politics in other ways. I think this demonstrated the truth of


that. We didn't vote for a set of people or policy, we voted to leave


or remain. Rachel Sylvester, thank you.


So from a leadership contest which has moved at lightning speed


to one which is travelling at little more than a snail's pace.


It's been more than two weeks since Labour Leader, Jeremy Corbyn,


began to be hit by a wave of Shadow Cabinet resignations,


and yesterday a challenger in the shape of Angela


But the fate of Mr Corbyn may hang on a meeting of Labour's ruling


Our reporter, Mark Lobel, is outside Labour HQ


Mark, what is happening? Not long to wait because in an hour and a half


the Labour National executive committee will meet at the Labour


headquarters behind me to determine whether Jeremy Corbyn automatically


gets on the leadership ballot or whether he has to get nominations


from 51 MPs and MEPs, which many say he would struggle to get. They would


also determine now the contest has been triggered by Angela Eagle, how


long other candidates have to throw their hat in the ring and also who


will be voting in the contest as we have registered supporters that were


crucial to Jeremy Corbyn's victory last time, and the people who paid


?3 last time, and that might go up, and how long they have to register


their support. Nobody wants to make predictions about anything these


days, which I understand, but do you think he will be on the ballot?


Let's explain what has to happen. Normally the ballot will be


interpreted by Labour Party rules but because it is such a divisive


contest as we have seen with a brick going through Angela Eagle's window,


the Labour Party general secretary decided to get legal advice. His


legal advice says that Jeremy Corbyn automatically would not get on the


ballot, but we have seen contrary advice from the unions and a member


of the NEC and they say they will challenge it in court. It is now


down to an NEC decision. They have to sit down amongst the group and


decide. I have gone through the 33 members what their public utterances


have been over the last few days, and Jeremy Corbyn would have a


majority of around five. The problem is, one person can't turn up today


and one will be late to the meeting and there is talk of a secret ballot


which would mean that some of the union backed members might vote


against how they publicly stated they would vote which is for Jeremy


Corbyn. Jeremy Corbyn is so rattled that he is coming down to the


meeting himself because he is a member and he has a vote about his


own future as well. Mark, it is agonising.


We're joined now by the former Shadow Education Secretary,


Lucy Powell, she resigned two weeks ago and is calling for


The NEC is meeting later on today and they will decide whether Jeremy


Corbyn is automatically on the ballot paper. Do you want to make a


plea to them to ensure he isn't? I personally feel will have nothing to


fear about Jeremy being on the ballot paper in the sense that I


think the support for him amongst the party membership is falling and


falling quickly indeed. If you look at the polling that is happening


amongst party members, trade union affiliates and what is coming up


from the grass roots. In my own constituency I have had many, many


e-mails and phone calls from people who voted for Jeremy last year who


now think it is untenable that he can continue without the support of


his Parliamentary colleagues. But what the NEC are deciding today is


not a political decision and it shouldn't be a political decision.


It is about the rules of the Labour Party. But they can be interpreted


either way, so it will be a political decision. I don't think


they can be interpreted either way, I think they are pretty clear. There


are two things I would point you to, one is the rule itself which says


where there is a vacancy is thereafter potential challengers and


in this case any nomination must be supported by 20%. But they are


talking about challengers, not the incumbent. If you look at the most


recent rule changes we made on the contest, the Collins review, it said


in recognition of the fact that the leader of the Labour Party has a


special duty to head the Parliamentary Labour Party in


Westminster, MPs will retain the responsibility of deciding the final


short list of candidates that will be put to the ballot. As I say,


whilst I would be confident of any contest, I think our forefathers and


those that drew up the constitution, including many trade union leaders


would have never imagined a circumstance where the leader of the


Labour Party was seeking to continue on the basis of having less than 20%


support of his MPs. So the NEC are today being asked to make an


exceptional, political decision to put him on the ballot paper


automatically. Why should he be on that ballot paper automatically in


this case if those are the rules? We can either talk about the legal


stuff all we can talk about a different angle, which is to say


that if he is not on it it will look like an enormous stitch up to a lot


of people. It will look like a stitch up because there are a lot of


people out there who want to vote for him, maybe the majority of


Labour members who want to vote for him. Least -- Lucy Powell says its


diminishing. Well, let's test it. Everyone should agree, if that's the


case, supporters of Jeremy like myself, if there is a vote and he


loses, he loses and that is a way of uniting the party around a new


candidate. If, however, you don't put him, not you, plural, and the


PLP has a responsibility, and if he is not on the ballot there will be


the most enormous crisis for the Labour Party. There is a crisis now.


The Labour Party might well split, because there will be people like me


from the left of the party who would feel that basically they are not


wanted in the party. That the socialist alternative is not really


required, and we will feel unable to continue to be a part of the Labour


Party. Is that a risk you are willing to take? It's not my


decision. But you could come out and say put him on the ballot paper. I


agree with your sentiment that this is better resolved in a different


way. All I am saying is, we have to take some of the heat out of the


situation. The NEC, who are an elected body of the Labour Party,


are there to uphold the rules. They may well choose, and Jerry May has


many more supporters on the NEC than dope supported -- Jeremy. They may


take an exceptional decision to put him on the ballot paper and I


believe in that contest Jeromy is likely to lose in any case. You are


speaking in favour of that, being on the ballot for political reasons?


I think the NEC's job is to uphold the rules and the rules are clear


Would you be in ( favour of... . I have nothing to fear about him being


on the ballot people but I feel those who are out this morning,


bullying and mob rule, throwing bricks through people's windows and


having demonstrations outside the ne. C meeting, against elected


members of the NEC, who are there to make a perfectly rational and


judicial dedecision about the rules of Labour Party, should be able to


do that in their own way, not have political interference from me for


Giles. We have had MPs on here, anecdotally talking about


intimidation from Jeremy Corbyn's supporters, talks of treachery and


betrayal and then Len McCluskey saying, actually in his mind, if his


mind Jeremy Corbyn has been dealt with by a lifrnl mob, bullying and


bludgeoning. Two things. The brick is unacceptable. When it turns into


any sort of physical violence, it is entirely and utterly unacceptable.


You I will say that three or four times to make that clear but


actually demonstrations are not unacceptable. Making your views


known are not unacceptable. Making your views known passionately is not


unacceptal. You say there will be a large section of the membership,


perhaps the majority, that will be very, very unhappy. And it is


difficult to quantify. But it isn't it true that in order to lead a


political party under the system we have, you must have the confidence


of the parliamentary party. You are a shadow Government, the idea is you


are preparing for Government. You are not leading a movement in that


strict sense of the word. Isn't that how our parliamentary democracy


works? Maybe we are in a process of relinement. There are all sorts of


problems about MPs and members and the people themselves that are out


of whack with each other. And it could be that the Labour Party is,


itself, heading for a split, where there are parts of the Labour Party


that seem very, very close to what Theresa May was saying - workers on


the boards, and so forth. The whole idea that that is close to Ed


Miliband is true. So there is a part of the Labour Party which would be


more comfortable in the left of the Tory Party, and they seem to be a


long, long way away from socialism, as I understand it, as traditionally


conceived. I think the Labour Party may well not hold together. . That's


not me and the vast majority of Labour. That's not me. Do you think


it'll stick together? I joined the Labour Party when I was 15, under


Margaret Thatcher. I lived in Manchester, at a comprehensive


school. I saw what happened to my country under Margaret Thatcher and


my friends who had no life chance at all. I'm not going anywhere. This is


my Labour Party, as much as it is anybody else's. But I think we have


a tradition in our party which is clearly exemplified in the rules of


the Labour Party, where you have to, as a leader, both lead the


parliamentary party as well as the wider membership. I think we can


move forward from this with a candidate who holds true to our


values of our socialist roots, while at the same time uniting both


aspects of the party. Are you batting Angela Eagle or Owen Smith?


Personally I think Owen would stand a better chance of beating Jeremy


Corbyn. I think we need a generational shift but Angela has


showed herself to be gutsy and ballsy. I will back whoever comes


top of that. That is a Powell from Jeremy Corbyn


on the subject of the brick that was thrown through the constituency


office. "It is disturbing that Angela Eagle has been the victim of


a threatening act and that other MPs are receiving abuse and threats. As


someone who has also received death threats this week and previously I'm


calling on all Labour Party members and supporters to act with calm and


treat each other with respect and dignity, even where there is a


disagreement. I utterly condemn any violence or threats which undermine


democracy within our party and have no palatial in our politics, thank


you." Now. Does anybody fancy another


general election? We had one only last May -


you might remember the Conservatives won a surprise majority -


but with a new Prime Minister set to be installed there have been


calls from opposition parties for Theresa May to go


to the country. But how do the voting public feel


about the idea of another Greetings from Croydon,


where it's stopped raining just long enough for us to ask the great


British public when the next general Now, or in 2020, as it


says under the law. They need to get the ball rolling


for Brexit first. She's going to be the next Prime


Minister. Excited


by that? I think it with strengthen her hand


if she did have a general election. At the end of the day, they voted


for a party, not one person, so whether it is Cameron leading it


or May leading it, I I think it would be better


for the country to get it over and done with -


do it now. Do you not think the country has had


enough of voting already? Well, if the weather carries


on like this, during Theresa May's Premiership,


she'll have to wear much There's a mum explaining to her son


what's happening - he's living through a great moment in


political history. We are getting a new Prime Minister,


should we have a new general Why are


you laughing? I think they should wait


because more people can then make Yes, and give her a bit of time


to have done something. Put it in the 2020 box


and I'll hold the pram. Do you think she should


have a general election? I think so, yes, because a lot


of people in this country aren't happy with the whole Brexit


scenario that happened. They had a vote but because it was


so close a lot of people felt that it was kind of -


they wanted it to be Time for the big reveal under


the Daily Politics' umbrella. Look, a bulk of people in Croydon


think there should be a general Now, where are those


Daily Politics' towels? Well, the weather was unkind there


for Adam Fleming testing the public. Well, we're joined now by Lib Dem


president Sal Brinton, who is calling for an early general


election, and by the Conservative MP Sal Brinton, the Liberal Democrats


wanted the fixed term Parliament Act why chapg your mind in No, there is


provision to call an election. Clear cry tieria, 65% of MPs or in the


event of a vote of no confidence and 14 days, for exactly the reason we


are in now. When there is a major change in the country, the


referendum was the biggest decision this country has made in decades and


Frank lit Conservative manifesto voted on last year, most has gone


out of the window. Stability has gone, Osborne has gone away from


austerity. All of those reasons, a new Prime Minister, needs a new


mandate, not least for the plans for Brexit. She was a Remainor, the UK


has voted to leave. She has only been elected Prime Minister for your


colleagues. I voted guest the nonsense of the fixed term


Parliament Act at second and that I had reading and it was the Liberal


Democrats who were behind it but the truth is we have had three changes


of Prime Minister in my lifetime, Wilson Callaghan, Thatcher-Major and


Blair hop Brown all three parliaments ran for five years, so


there is no constitutional precedent. But as you remember,


Gordon Brown was always said to have regretted that decision, certainly


of having marched everyone to the top of the hill and in the calling


that election and having a popular mandate. But he was promoting an


early general election, Theresa May isn't, if she's talking about going


to 2020. Isn't that the case, if she quells any talk of an early general


election, then at least she will have settled the decision. It will


be interesting to see if she can do that. Your popular vote on the


streets of Croydon was showing there was a strong momentum at the moment


-- people saying, where are we standing at the moment, where are we


going to do Go? Let's not forget in 2007, it was Theresa May who called


for Gordon Brown who have an election because he had no mandate.


Right. I mean, is now the right time? Absolutely not. Theresa May


has to get on and do stu. I think the Liberal Democrats are sore


losers about the referendum and they are just looking for a way to turn


the clock back and try and weedle their way out of a very clear


decision that the country made. And, so, I think basically we have to get


on and do it. The country has spoken and what Theresa May's big job is,


is to implement what the will of the British people is. We have had


enough uncertainty. It isn't just the Liberal Democrats. Labour were


calling for it earlier today as well. I'm not sure about Labour,


that Labour universally... I don't think Jeremy Corbyn in his heart or


hearts or even his heart wants a general election. Some of the MPs


might. The point surely is whether the new Prime Minister has a man it


do and we -- a mandate and we and many other politicians are


concerned. We don't elect Prime Ministers, we elect governments.


This is why I voted guest the be a. Are you regretting that? No


emergency provision is there for this decision where the country has


made the biggest decision in decades. The landscape has changed.


Would it be better to wait until we have a clear idea at least at to


what the renegotiation might look like, so not now, but maybe 18


months' time. We are saying an election for a mandate, we are not


saying next week but clearly, at the moment, we have a Prime Minister


coming in tomorrow. There is no clear Brexit plan and, whats' more,


the economy has changed. -- what's more. This is shouting, fire, fire.


It is nottage emergency situation, we require not people shouting fire,


we require people having calm heads, getting on and implementing what the


will of the British people was and it was pretty clear Can you tell us


what it is? Yes, leave the European Union. It was there on the paper. It


is not that simple, it is all the detail. Which has to be worked out.


Would it strengthen her negotiation position in terms of Brexit... She


is not going to have a general election. She would have to persuade


Conservative Party colleagues to have a vote of no confidence in her.


You don't think they would do that. How ridiculous would that be, she is


about to become Prime Minister and within a couple of weeks we have a


vote of no confidence. People should have thought about this when they


passed the fixed-term Parliament Act. All I would say is that over


the last few weeks, things have changed dramatically, events, events


dear boy. There was only a general election last year But things have


changed really fundamentally. They have changed. Well, we are going to


change Prime Minister. Thank you both for coming on to the programme.


There is just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.


David Cameron appeared to forget he still had a microphone on after


delivering a brief statement in Downing Street yesterday.


The question was what did he do as he walked back into number 10?


Was it A) mutter 'Caribbean here we come'.


or Dd) ask Sam to open a bottle of something cold?


Open somethingcold. No let's have a look.


You may not recognise it. Do you have any ideas what it might have


been? It certainly wasn't the tune you have there. There are way too


many notes in T What do you think? He sound the upbeat and - I've got


out. He is going home and going to enjoy himself. Well, go on then. He


is probably going to the Caribbean as well. And probably opened a


bottle of something. Well thank you for being my guest of the day, Giles


and to all my guests. The One O'Clock News is starting on BBC One.


We will be back at 11.30pm tomorrow for the last Prime Minister's


Questions for David Cameron. Goodbye.


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