14/07/2016 Daily Politics


14/07/2016

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn are joined by former Conservative minister Francis Maude to discuss Theresa May's government appointments and the Brexit negotiations.


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Transcript


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:37.:00:40.

It's Theresa May's first day at Number Ten

:00:41.:00:42.

and she's been making some sweeping changes to her government,

:00:43.:00:45.

saying farewell to many of the big names from the Cameron era

:00:46.:00:48.

and welcoming some surprising figures to her team.

:00:49.:00:52.

Mrs May promised to lead a country that works for the many,

:00:53.:00:55.

but it's likely that it will be Britain's exit from the EU

:00:56.:01:00.

The biggest surprise of the reshuffle has been

:01:01.:01:06.

the decision to make Boris Johnson Foreign Secretary,

:01:07.:01:10.

as it's out with the old and in with some of the leading

:01:11.:01:15.

As Theresa May stamps her authority on the Conservatives the internal

:01:16.:01:20.

crisis in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour seems to be getting nastier.

:01:21.:01:25.

We'll look at whether Mr Corbyn or his critics have the advantage.

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And the political cartoonists are sharpening their pencils

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we'll talk about their impression of the new PM.

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and with us for the whole of the programme today

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is the former Conservative minister Francis Maude.

:01:49.:01:49.

he's now a member of the House of Lords.

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He's seen plenty of reshuffles in his time,

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but we're glad he hasn't been recalled

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to government or he wouldn't be able to join us in the studio today.

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As we came on air, the bank of England announced its decision on

:02:16.:02:25.

interest rates. It was widely predicted that they would cut

:02:26.:02:30.

interest rates but they have voted 8-1 on the monetary policy committee

:02:31.:02:36.

to keep interest rates on hold and to keep the rate of quantities

:02:37.:02:47.

quantitative easing the same. This is significant because 80% of

:02:48.:02:51.

economists predicted that he would cut the rates. A lot of them were

:02:52.:02:56.

economists who had a lot to Sage in the referendum campaign. We got an

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inkling that they may be wrong by the currency markets this morning.

:03:03.:03:07.

Both against the euro and the dollar sterling started to strengthen and

:03:08.:03:15.

it would seem unusual to strengthen if they were anticipating a cut in

:03:16.:03:24.

interest rates. The governor has held onto his firepower for the

:03:25.:03:32.

moment. Maybe in all August or September when he has a better idea

:03:33.:03:37.

of the lay of the land. There were dire predictions of cataclysm and

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the danger was lending credence to that by the actions that they take.

:03:45.:03:49.

This was a perfectly sensible decision to hold rates as they are

:03:50.:03:53.

and say actually there aren't any indications of cataclysm that we

:03:54.:03:59.

need to spend with a cut in interest rates. I think it is a sensible

:04:00.:04:04.

move. When it comes to monetary policy, he hasn't got that much room

:04:05.:04:11.

to manoeuvre given that rates are so low. They have been the same for

:04:12.:04:18.

seven years now. He has 175 billion of QE out there already. Everything

:04:19.:04:25.

he does is subject to the law of diminishing returns. I'm sure that's

:04:26.:04:32.

right. You could go lower and it was predicted and there are negative

:04:33.:04:36.

interest rates in places but that is a counsel of despair. The bank of

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Japan, the Riggs bank of Sweden, they have all come to two negative

:04:43.:04:48.

rates. The governor has made clear he is not a fan of negative rates.

:04:49.:04:56.

We have a stronger economy. We are not on the floor. The economy is

:04:57.:05:01.

pretty strong. The legacy of the Cameron government has been to take

:05:02.:05:07.

is from a very bad place to having a strong economy with good strong

:05:08.:05:13.

employment rates. I think what this reflects is a recognition that the

:05:14.:05:19.

world, the roof hasn't fallen in and you don't need to take desperate

:05:20.:05:24.

measures to shore things up. All right. It's likely that the economy

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will be slowing down in this quarter so the government will probably

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revisit this decision in August or September. Now, for the seven years

:05:37.:05:46.

back to 2009 interests rate stay the same.

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Let's turn back to the big story of the day, and that's Theresa May's

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After returning from the palace and arriving in Downing Street,

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Mrs May used her speech outside Number ten to promise

:05:59.:06:00.

to tackle injustice, and she said she was determined

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Following the referendum we face a time of great national change.

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And I know, because we are Great Britain,

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As we leave the European Union we will forge a bold, new positive role

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We will make Britain a country that works,

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not for a privileged few, but for of us.

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That will be the mission the government I lead.

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And, together, we will build a better Britain.

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The reaction to that speech from various quarters was that she had

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parked her tanks on Labour's lawn. What was there in that speech for

:06:56.:07:01.

true blue Tories? I think the Conservative Party at its best does

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occupy the centre ground. We have to be a party, if we are going to

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succeed electorally, to appeal to all parts of the country,

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geographically, socially, of racial background. She is continuing in the

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direction that David Cameron set. The direction he took which made the

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Conservative Party electable again after a long period in opposition

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where we lost three general elections in a row. That is really

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important. There wasn't so much in her speech is on the economic front.

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No one has ever suggested that a vote to leave the European Union

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will not have some short-term shock and downside effect on the, me. What

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people will want to hear in the days and weeks ahead is some sense of how

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we are going to use the opportunity that comes from being not in the

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European Union to build a different kind of economy that is even more

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buoyant and strong... Do you think that Philip Hammond who is one of

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those who warned of economic gloom and doom if the UK voted to leave

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the EU is the right person combine with Theresa May, who you could

:08:27.:08:32.

argue is not an economic expert, to then steer Britain through this

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short-term shock, as you put it? I never thought Philip's heart was

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terribly in the remaining campaign. He said in 2011 that he said he

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would vote against membership. His task is to set out creatively,

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imaginatively, what the opportunities are and what

:09:00.:09:04.

government policy will help that. The key things that people will want

:09:05.:09:08.

to hear is that there is a very strong commitment by the government

:09:09.:09:14.

London are being an incredibly competitive international financial

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centre. That is about a regulatory regime, a tax regime that makes

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people want to do business from London. That's the economic side of

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it. Let's look at style. She's quite bold. It's a genetic reshuffle. A

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lot of ministerial corpses abound. Yes and it looks a bit personal, to

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be honest. I company elite understand the desire of a new Prime

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Minister to sweep away some of the characters that formed the essence

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of the Cameron government. I think she shouldn't forget that those were

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people who also got the Conservative Party into a place where it could

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get back into government and I particularly regret the loss of

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Michael Gove. He is a powerful reformer, a powerful intellect,

:10:09.:10:11.

brave and clever and principled and a really effective reformer. I think

:10:12.:10:23.

to lose him was a mistake. Sterling holding steady against the euro. 1.1

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nine. Against the dollar it is 1.32 in the wake of no cut in the

:10:29.:10:38.

interest rate. It looks like the currency markets had anticipated it.

:10:39.:10:43.

So Theresa May defied some commentators who thought

:10:44.:10:45.

this could be something of continuity reshuffle.

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Instead we've seen the sacking of some big figures

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from David Cameron's government, including George Osborne,

:10:50.:10:51.

Jeremy Hunt has been removed from health but we don't know his new

:10:52.:11:03.

appointment. And Mrs May also made some genuinely

:11:04.:11:05.

surprising new appointments, including several high-profile

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Brexit-backers and, in the biggest Yesterday we heard

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Philip Hammond has taken the keys and Boris Johnson was the first

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big surprise being appointed

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Foreign Secretary, while Amber Rudd moves

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into Theresa May's old job Mrs May has kept her promise

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to appoint a eurosceptic to be in charge of negotiations

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with Brussels on leaving the EU, David Davis takes that plum role

:11:33.:11:35.

and his eurosceptic comrade Liam Fox has taken on another

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newly created position; Secretary of State

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for International Trade, while Michael Fallon keeps his role

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as Defence Secretary. George Osborne,

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Michael Gove, Nicky Morgan, have all been

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kicked out of the gang. Just before we came on air we also

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learnt that Liz Truss has been and Justine Greening will be

:12:01.:12:07.

the new Education Secretary. We saw that just before we went on

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air. We did indeed. The fact that Liz Truss has gone to the Justice

:12:26.:12:30.

Department and Amber Rudd to the Home Office means that some were

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speculating that Mrs may never liked the division between the Home Office

:12:38.:12:41.

and justice. There was talk that she might bring the departments together

:12:42.:12:45.

again. She has kept them separate and put a woman in charge of each.

:12:46.:12:51.

The Department for Education will take on higher education, skills and

:12:52.:12:56.

print inches is. -- and apprenticeships. Given that were

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having a separate department for trade deals, it will be looking as

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if the business Department and the Department of Energy and Climate

:13:10.:13:12.

Change are going to be merged together. Because a lot of

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businesses are worried about energy policy, it may be no bad thing to

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have them under one roof. We're joined now by Tom Newton-Dunn

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from the Sun and Isabel Oakeshott from the Mail, they've both seen

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a fair few reshuffles Mrs may's reshuffle to date. The

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Notting Hill set has gone. This cabal of people who were at

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university together and socialise together, they are used to being in

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the ascendancy and running the country. There is a shocked

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devastation that they are not in charge any more. A lot have fallen

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out with each other. It has had an incredibly traumatic impact on their

:14:04.:14:15.

lives. What's your take? It is quite astonishingly brutal. We knew

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Theresa May was her own woman and was going to be strong but to chop

:14:23.:14:28.

off so many heads is quite amazing. This is her saying, this is my

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government, step out of line and you will be going back to the

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backbenches. Something else is going on. Look at the line-up. Someone

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rudely said it is the grown-ups in charge. And older line-up of the

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Conservative Party. The older guard. It is quite a defensive reshuffle.

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Theresa May has carefully put a load of people in position to create a

:14:57.:15:02.

buffer between her and some massive areas of trouble. Philip Hammond at

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the Treasury, he is used to doom and gloom. The man who has to do the

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cuts and horrible stuff. Protects her from some of the bad news. David

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Davis and Liam Fox running Brexit. If it goes wrong, they are the

:15:19.:15:22.

people who wanted it. That is only fair. We are learning that Jeremy

:15:23.:15:29.

Hunt is expected to stay in his post at the Department of Health. Number

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ten is going to confirm that shortly. Online, everyone is saying

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that he had been fired from Department of Health. Sacked from

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the Cabinet. Then it was reined back to moving from health but now we are

:15:44.:15:49.

being told that he's probably still at the Department of Health. Tom

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says, to encourage the others, a pretty good phrase to use, it is

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Bastille Day. Is it not the case that if you are a new Prime

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Minister, you have also won during the parliamentary term, not won a

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Parliamentary election. You do want to stamp your mark. To tell people

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it is a new government. done that in spades, the decision to

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axe Michael Gove completely is a particularly significant one, it

:16:27.:16:30.

sends a moral message, there is no doubting among the colleagues of

:16:31.:16:33.

Michael Gove his competence. He was doing a good job at the Department

:16:34.:16:38.

for justice, he is clearly an extremely able person. In deciding

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to axe him altogether, she is sending out a message about loyalty

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and trust, that is very important. In relation to Jeremy Hunt, he does

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stay, that will be very controversial. Number ten, the old

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number ten, always regarded Jeremy Hunt is a very competent minister,

:17:00.:17:04.

personable, but he has really come right up against the doctors in this

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row over contracts and that has not been resolved and if he is still

:17:12.:17:15.

there, how does it play out? Potential headache for Theresa May.

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That is why we thought he had been sacked, seemed logical. The new

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Chief Whip, Gavin Williamson... Me neither! That is a great

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appointment. He is... Give us a word on him. He was David

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Cameron's PBS, and a very effective one, he was loved by the Tory

:17:50.:17:53.

backbenches. And, new knows where all of the bodies are. -- PPS. -- he

:17:54.:18:00.

knows where all of the bodies are. Williamson, if you are watching

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television, you cannot come on here, you have two stay anonymous, you are

:18:07.:18:11.

the Chief Whip. Boris is fun and great, isn't he,

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bouncing around like he is going to be the next Prime Minister, and they

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never actually... They have just made him Foreign Secretary?... !

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LAUGHTER Speechless! Perhaps Boris Johnson

:18:33.:18:49.

will do the same if Angela Eagle becomes leader of the Labour Party.

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Wise decision? And expected evidence of a sense of humour! -- unexpected

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evidence. We all know that he is very fun. The way that this has been

:19:05.:19:09.

set up, he is not going to be involved in the Brexit, I should

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imagine, this will be a diminished role. He will be involved in some

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way, but presumably David Davies's Brexit department will take the

:19:20.:19:23.

lead. Liam Fox's trade department will take the lead, he will help

:19:24.:19:28.

David Davies on trade relationship with Europe, but also take the lead

:19:29.:19:31.

in new trade relationships with other countries. So, what does the

:19:32.:19:37.

Foreign Office do? That is the first question for him to answer. LAUGHTER

:19:38.:19:45.

Are you thinking, not much? There is a huge amount to do, permanent seat

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on the United Nations Security Council, there is a load of stuff,

:19:51.:19:55.

the Commonwealth... There is an interesting potential to build a

:19:56.:19:59.

Commonwealth trade relationship, and that would be Liam Fox, rather than

:20:00.:20:08.

Boris You may describe this as a rather clever move of defence by

:20:09.:20:13.

Theresa May, Boris is still the most likely person to become Prime

:20:14.:20:16.

Minister afterwards, he has support within the party, where is the one

:20:17.:20:20.

place where it is almost impossible to pull off a coup, challenge

:20:21.:20:23.

leadership, on an aeroplane, halfway to Malay share! You cannot do too

:20:24.:20:36.

much. -- Malaysia. Whether Boris can make the Americans laugh and not

:20:37.:20:38.

offend the Chinese too much, who knows yet. A lot of people do not

:20:39.:20:42.

know too much about Philip Hammond, Chancellor of the Exchequer, but we

:20:43.:20:46.

know him rather on the Daily well, Politics, he would come on a lot, I

:20:47.:20:52.

doubt he as Chancellor, but he has been interviewed with some very

:20:53.:20:56.

famous people, not just Jo Coburn, somebody even more famous.

:20:57.:21:02.

I'm delighted to say that instead of any Labour Minister, we are joined

:21:03.:21:07.

by... Peppa Pig. I don't think any party

:21:08.:21:20.

has identified in detail how they will reduce public

:21:21.:21:21.

spending over the course of the The question to the Labour Party,

:21:22.:21:24.

to Peppa, if I may, you have all servants, you have

:21:25.:21:28.

all the data, you are sitting You know all the

:21:29.:21:31.

forward commitments. Why have you not

:21:32.:21:33.

published a comprehensive My understanding is that she will be

:21:34.:21:39.

May chief secretary to the under Mr Heyman. Here is the thing, safe pair

:21:40.:21:42.

of hands. -- made Chief Secretary to the Treasury under Mr Hammond.

:21:43.:21:51.

Conservative with a small sea but also a lot of talk from Theresa

:21:52.:21:58.

May's camp and other parts of ending fiscal austerities and building up a

:21:59.:22:00.

big infrastructure fund, borrowing and to nearly 0%, more imaginative

:22:01.:22:07.

things. Really creating a Northern powerhouse which joins South

:22:08.:22:10.

Yorkshire with Lancashire, meaning that High Speed two is not so

:22:11.:22:15.

important as state-of-the-art communications east and West. I know

:22:16.:22:22.

you find it difficult to put Philip Hammond and imaginative in the same

:22:23.:22:26.

bracket but the thing to say about big Bill, box office fell, he is

:22:27.:22:29.

quite different from his public persona. Not only somebody who is

:22:30.:22:37.

competent and personable and he will do a good job, undoubtably. The

:22:38.:22:45.

first hints that George Osborne was doomed was when they were talking

:22:46.:22:48.

about changing policy on austerity. At that point it was clear that

:22:49.:22:52.

George Osborne was out. -- Big Phil. -- Box Office Phil. I have high

:22:53.:23:02.

hopes for Big Phil. He went into the MoD and sorted out a deficit, he is

:23:03.:23:06.

highly competent with numbers, he is lacking in emotional intelligence,

:23:07.:23:09.

the problem with him. He just does not show it to you. You are special?

:23:10.:23:17.

She is a lucky girl! LAUGHTER She will be the judge of that. If he

:23:18.:23:22.

is going to deliver this healing society, one nation agenda, then you

:23:23.:23:26.

need a little bit of empathy about it, standing at the dispatch box and

:23:27.:23:32.

deliver a thing austerity budget after austerity budget... --

:23:33.:23:36.

delivering. The idea was not to do that, the former Chancellor wanted

:23:37.:23:42.

to do the punishment budget, it was so unpopular among Tory MPs, that

:23:43.:23:47.

she could not continue with him as Chancellor. It was not on the cards.

:23:48.:23:54.

Kind of economically ridiculous. It was an absurd thing for him to

:23:55.:23:58.

threaten. Then he bounced back at some stage? Careers are never over

:23:59.:24:02.

until they are over, he is in his mid-40s. He is very talented and

:24:03.:24:10.

able. My favourite Philip Hammond story, a senior military person told

:24:11.:24:14.

me, one week into Philip Mack reports ten year as Defence

:24:15.:24:19.

Secretary, they had gone in with the normal slide deck, and PowerPoint

:24:20.:24:23.

presentation and he said, next time, can I have a spreadsheet! -- tenure.

:24:24.:24:27.

LAUGHTER My kind of guy! -- Philip Hammond's

:24:28.:24:40.

tenure. Over to Downing Street now, Norman Smith, there he is, our man

:24:41.:24:45.

outside of number ten and 11, it seems, give us the latest. Patrick

:24:46.:24:53.

McLoughlin has come out, former Transport Secretary, needed not tell

:24:54.:24:56.

us what job he has got, it was the only one who would not tell us what

:24:57.:25:00.

he has got, he has moved somewhere. Jeremy Hunt, we have been talking

:25:01.:25:03.

about him all morning wondering what has happened to him, he has gone in,

:25:04.:25:08.

I presume he must be moving from health. You would not invite

:25:09.:25:14.

somebody in just to tell them that it is as you were, so he must be

:25:15.:25:18.

moving to some new post. On the women front, I have not seen as many

:25:19.:25:23.

as we were being promised. I thought we would see an awful lot more, so

:25:24.:25:30.

far, what we have seen, Justine Greening, Education Secretary,

:25:31.:25:32.

moving over from international do that. Liz truss taking over as

:25:33.:25:36.

Justice Secretary from environment, and overnight, the massive promotion

:25:37.:25:42.

to Home Secretary by Amber arrived, only an MP six years ago and now,

:25:43.:25:47.

she is Home Secretary. -- Liz Truss. We have not seen this promised march

:25:48.:25:51.

of the women, so far, maybe that will come later on. But the one

:25:52.:25:55.

thing that I think everyone here today has kind of been struck by its

:25:56.:25:59.

the scale of this reshuffle. -- Amber Rudd. This is not a nip and

:26:00.:26:05.

tuck, this is wholesale surgery. What I kind of take from it is two

:26:06.:26:11.

things. One, we are seeing the dismantling of the Notting Hill set,

:26:12.:26:15.

the key figures, George Osborne, Michael Gove, Oliver Letwin, they

:26:16.:26:22.

have gone. They are out. And part of the message that Theresa May wants

:26:23.:26:25.

to send is not merely that she is not part of that but that it is

:26:26.:26:30.

change, big change, new government, this is not carry on Cameron, this

:26:31.:26:34.

is an entirely different government and that is why we are seeing such

:26:35.:26:42.

radical reshaping of the cabinet. Maybe they will come maybe they will

:26:43.:26:49.

come with the appointments. I can do that. Equality rains are the men,

:26:50.:26:59.

I'm glad to see that. There is still a question next to Jeremy Hunt, we

:27:00.:27:02.

have seen conflicting indicators about whether he will stay in health

:27:03.:27:07.

or be moved, we will hold fire. As you say, brutal, guest Francis Maude

:27:08.:27:13.

and it is a bit personal, do you think that she will come to regret

:27:14.:27:17.

the fact that she has scattered the corpses all over Downing Street. I

:27:18.:27:25.

am not... There may be a personal element in despatching Michael Gove,

:27:26.:27:29.

but actually, I think it is more canny than personal, and I say that

:27:30.:27:35.

because it is very obvious she has brought in the Brexiteers and said,

:27:36.:27:39.

you guys, Brexit, that is your problem, sort it out. In the key

:27:40.:27:45.

Brexit facing departments, Foreign Office, Boris Johnson, the new exit

:27:46.:27:51.

from the Europeans union Department, what a mouthful, David Davies, and

:27:52.:27:56.

the new International Trade apartment, Liam Fox. All the Brexit

:27:57.:27:59.

facing departments have been handed over to the Brexiteers. On one level

:28:00.:28:03.

you could say, that makes sense, they believe in it and make it --

:28:04.:28:09.

will make it work. I suspect Theresa May is also thinking down the line

:28:10.:28:13.

that this makes her politically bombproof if it goes badly wrong,

:28:14.:28:16.

or, there has to be awkward compromises where we have two tweak

:28:17.:28:19.

back a bit on ending free movement, whether we have to do a deal to stay

:28:20.:28:26.

a part of the single market. -- the new International Trade department.

:28:27.:28:32.

She can say, it is not me, it is the Brexit people... It is a canny move.

:28:33.:28:37.

It'll be interesting to see how that pans out, Patrick McLoughlin, he has

:28:38.:28:42.

been moved from transport to Tory party chairman. Interesting, the

:28:43.:28:51.

great question, what happens to Heathrow? Whoever gets the transport

:28:52.:28:55.

job, people will be going through their CV, to see if they have ever

:28:56.:29:00.

said, suggested, knotted anything at all about Gatwick, Heathrow, that

:29:01.:29:05.

would be the big decision. -- mattered anything at all. It means

:29:06.:29:10.

the chairman of the Conservative Party... Stephen Crabb is just

:29:11.:29:16.

walking in... OK... We will come back to you. We will come back to

:29:17.:29:19.

you if there is any more significant developments. The current new

:29:20.:29:24.

chairman of the Conservative Party is a former coalminer, perhaps that

:29:25.:29:30.

plays to Theresa May's... Justine Greening? Education? Yes, we are

:29:31.:29:35.

up-to-date. And Boris Johnson has already called Secretary of State

:29:36.:29:40.

John Kerry, in the United States. The first call. Theresa May's first

:29:41.:29:42.

call was to Angela Merkel. David Cameron told MPs

:29:43.:29:49.

yesterday that his party had managed resignation,

:29:50.:29:51.

nomination, all before Labour had

:29:52.:29:52.

decided the rules Well, today the party

:29:53.:29:55.

is confirming those rules, but the contest is anything

:29:56.:29:58.

but straightforward It is a very difficult meeting. It

:29:59.:30:16.

was highly emotionally charged. A number of colleagues were very upset

:30:17.:30:18.

during the meeting, including myself.

:30:19.:30:22.

There was a number of threats made and a number of votes that were

:30:23.:30:29.

obviously crucial in determining the future of the Labour Party.

:30:30.:30:33.

VOICEOVER: Jeremy Corbyn emerged from Tuesday's fractious marathon

:30:34.:30:38.

emergency session of Labour's governing body after a torrid two

:30:39.:30:43.

weeks. Having suffered a vote of no-confidence by fellow MPs, and a

:30:44.:30:47.

leadership challenge, a vote on whether he could automatically stand

:30:48.:30:52.

again went his way. I'm delighted to say, the Labour Party national

:30:53.:30:56.

executive has decided that an incumbent is automatically on the

:30:57.:31:02.

ballot paper... CHEERING He may come to rue his decision to

:31:03.:31:05.

leave the crucial meeting at which he had a vote early. Jeremy Corbyn

:31:06.:31:11.

left the room, went to greet supporters outside, to see the

:31:12.:31:16.

media, and the NEC then made some significant decisions about the

:31:17.:31:19.

contest, that gave Jeremy Corbyn's opponents on the NEC, and in labour

:31:20.:31:25.

more widely, some hope that they can beat him.

:31:26.:31:32.

It was so different last September. Jeremy Corbyn beat off rivals for

:31:33.:31:40.

the leadership with an impressive 67% of the vote. Ten months on,

:31:41.:31:47.

despite losing support from 80% of his Parliamentary party, he has

:31:48.:31:51.

refused to resign claiming he is still the overwhelming favourite

:31:52.:31:55.

among members. Now Angela Eagle and Owen Smith have launched leadership

:31:56.:32:00.

campaigns and the battle for the future of the party is underway. So

:32:01.:32:06.

how could rule changes affect the contest? When Jeremy Corbyn was

:32:07.:32:13.

elected by 60% of the electorate it was under one member one vote and

:32:14.:32:18.

49% were from party members. The other half were from registered

:32:19.:32:23.

supporters who paid a one-off fee for a vote. The rest from affiliated

:32:24.:32:32.

members of the Labour Party. For this summer's contest the party

:32:33.:32:37.

membership vote is based on members who joined before January this year.

:32:38.:32:44.

Pretty much the same thing. However, for registered voters it has changed

:32:45.:32:48.

drastically. The amount you have to pay has gone up from ?3 to ?25 and

:32:49.:32:55.

the time to do that has gone down from three months to two days. The

:32:56.:33:02.

strategy was to recruit centrist voters from outside Labour by

:33:03.:33:09.

something like the ?3 scheme. Now the fee is ?25 and supporters only

:33:10.:33:14.

have two days to sign up. There is much less attempt to do that. --

:33:15.:33:21.

opportunity to do that. That reflects fears that they wouldn't be

:33:22.:33:25.

able to attract enough supporters to the party to make a difference. They

:33:26.:33:30.

think the best hope of beating Jeremy Corbyn is to shrink the

:33:31.:33:36.

electorate. There is a third group that can support. Affiliated

:33:37.:33:43.

supporters. Could Corbyn supporters use this route to vote? We now

:33:44.:33:54.

understand that potentially cheaper route has been blocked by Labour's

:33:55.:33:58.

procedural committee who have ruled that only people who join the

:33:59.:34:02.

affiliated groups before January 12 will be able to vote. Discussions

:34:03.:34:07.

are underway to make their deadlines earlier than August the 8th.

:34:08.:34:10.

To discuss this we're joined by Matt Wrack, General Secretary

:34:11.:34:16.

who resigned as Shadow Attorney General in January,

:34:17.:34:32.

and who is backing Owen Smith in the Labour leadership contest.

:34:33.:34:36.

Why does somebody who joined three months ago have less right to vote

:34:37.:34:43.

than a registered supporter who can join next Tuesday? The idea is quite

:34:44.:34:56.

simply to have a period so that there is no late flood of members.

:34:57.:35:04.

It was a mistake from your perspective last time to have ?3

:35:05.:35:10.

membership. The issue last time was the logistics of trying to manage

:35:11.:35:15.

it. We have to ensure that those who sign up share their aims and values

:35:16.:35:19.

of the Labour Party and trying to do that with the numbers and in the

:35:20.:35:23.

time to do that proved extraordinarily difficult. They have

:35:24.:35:27.

done their best to make this a manageable and fair process. To a

:35:28.:35:33.

normal person watching, trying to navigate through it is ridiculous.

:35:34.:35:41.

It's not grown-up politics. Jeremy Corbyn refusing to leave the room

:35:42.:35:48.

during the NEC meeting. Attempts to circumvent the rules on registered

:35:49.:35:54.

supporters joining. None of this is grown-up politics. Jeremy Corbyn is

:35:55.:36:01.

a member of the National executive voting. There is no obligation for

:36:02.:36:08.

him to leave any meeting. Absolutely it is grown-up. I've been in the

:36:09.:36:12.

labour movement all my life and I've never seen a committee where

:36:13.:36:16.

somebody who is entitled to a vote at committee is asked to leave the

:36:17.:36:21.

room. That is pretty scandalous. I think there is a number of things

:36:22.:36:27.

going on. I was at a meeting yesterday and a firefighter of 39

:36:28.:36:32.

years service who joined the Labour Party in January has been excluded

:36:33.:36:36.

from voting. It is exactly the kind of people who should be in the

:36:37.:36:42.

Labour ranks. He has been ruled out but somebody who has joined in a

:36:43.:36:48.

narrow two-day window can vote. That is the contradiction. There is a

:36:49.:36:55.

valid argument that the ?3 membership cost didn't cover costs

:36:56.:37:00.

last year but a ?10 membership would appeal to the people that Labour

:37:01.:37:12.

should appeal to. You are terrified that Jeremy Corbyn will win again so

:37:13.:37:15.

you are trying to price people out of voting for him? That isn't it.

:37:16.:37:23.

You have to be able to ensure that those who sign up to vote share the

:37:24.:37:28.

aims and values of the Labour Party. There was a terrific problem doing

:37:29.:37:32.

that last summer. We have to have a manageable process. These are people

:37:33.:37:38.

who have already joined the Labour Party. About 135,000 existing

:37:39.:37:47.

members will be excluded. In March 2015 there would have been recent

:37:48.:37:52.

joiners of my constituency party who would be excluded as well. This

:37:53.:37:56.

gives management to the process and it ensures that people share the

:37:57.:38:00.

aims and values. Ayew saying that those people who joined don't? I'm

:38:01.:38:07.

not saying that but it is a process of ensuring that those people don't.

:38:08.:38:12.

What about Jeremy Corbyn clinging on to power when his Parliamentary

:38:13.:38:17.

party has deserted him. Let's say he does get re-elected. He still won't

:38:18.:38:23.

have the support of Labour MPs. They still won't serve in his shadow

:38:24.:38:31.

Carrie -- cabinet. He won't be able to get his policies through. He will

:38:32.:38:36.

study failing his voters because there will be no functioning

:38:37.:38:39.

opposition. Take the example of Trident on Monday. There will be no

:38:40.:38:44.

representation of his view on Monday. Clive Lewis has asked for a

:38:45.:38:54.

free vote. I hope it will be a democratic debate about policy. I

:38:55.:38:59.

would expect members to comply and accept the decision of the Labour

:39:00.:39:03.

members at the end of the process. What I'm saying is that they won't.

:39:04.:39:10.

What people are saying now and after a contest might be two different

:39:11.:39:16.

things. Those policies of the Labour Party are not being put forward now.

:39:17.:39:21.

This is regrettable but people have been coordinating this for a long

:39:22.:39:30.

time. Not some, 80%. Some people have been planning this for a long

:39:31.:39:34.

time and others have been caught up in it. There is a mood in the Labour

:39:35.:39:40.

Party that this ends. People have been asking their Parliamentary

:39:41.:39:46.

members not to support the coup against Jeremy Corbyn. Now they are

:39:47.:39:52.

telling them not to meet. Will you fall in behind Jeremy Corbyn and

:39:53.:39:55.

John McDonnell and others to support their domestic policy agenda? We

:39:56.:40:06.

have to accept the decision, yes. I resigned because there was this

:40:07.:40:10.

massive lack of confidence in his leadership but I can support our

:40:11.:40:14.

aims as a member of the Labour Party in a variety of ways. And that is

:40:15.:40:27.

welcome. This is a battle between two camps trying to get as many of

:40:28.:40:32.

their supporters out. It is a leadership contest about who can get

:40:33.:40:39.

supporters out and who can sign up as many as they can in two days. And

:40:40.:40:47.

woman it? There is great in these as to support Jeremy Corbyn's campaign

:40:48.:40:51.

because he has stood by working people. He stands for public

:40:52.:40:56.

services and the things that we want to hear from a Labour Party and

:40:57.:40:59.

unfortunately we haven't always heard them. Is support seeping away

:41:00.:41:05.

in the way that Stephen Kinnock said yesterday? There are people who

:41:06.:41:10.

supported Jeremy last year who are telling me that they wouldn't do so

:41:11.:41:14.

now. There isn't a race to sign people up. Hundreds of thousands of

:41:15.:41:20.

long-standing Labour members are out there to make the decision as well.

:41:21.:41:25.

It is about a considered decision by our party members. The party's

:41:26.:41:31.

future in terms of splitting or not. There was a claim that the Shadow

:41:32.:41:36.

Chancellor was prepared to split the party if that was what it takes.

:41:37.:41:42.

Denied by the Chancellor but Owen Smith insists that's what he said.

:41:43.:41:50.

Nobody wants to see a split. But for Jeremy Corbyn to stay as it were the

:41:51.:41:55.

party splitting? There is a democratic process that Jeremy

:41:56.:41:59.

Corbyn has committed to and as a long-standing loyal member of the

:42:00.:42:02.

Labour Party he has not remotely raised the question of a split. The

:42:03.:42:11.

only people doing that are a Labour MEP.... And John McDonald so claims

:42:12.:42:20.

Owen Smith and five other people and that room. That's not the way to go

:42:21.:42:34.

into it. So you would condemn a -- John McDonnell for saying that? If

:42:35.:42:40.

he says he didn't say that, I believe he didn't say that. He is a

:42:41.:42:44.

very committed and long-standing Labour MP. News coming in thick and

:42:45.:42:59.

fast. Theresa Villers has resigned from her post. She was offered

:43:00.:43:04.

another role away from Northern Ireland but she didn't feel she

:43:05.:43:09.

could take it. She is now away from the government. It took Margaret

:43:10.:43:13.

Thatcher for years to get a Cabinet that she wanted. Theresa May looks

:43:14.:43:20.

like she has done it in 24 hours. She's not just changing the Cabinet.

:43:21.:43:26.

There are major changes, we think, underfoot in the structure of

:43:27.:43:31.

government. It looks like the business Department has gone. The

:43:32.:43:36.

Department of Energy and Climate Change, gone entirely. The

:43:37.:43:41.

Department for Transport are gone. We are being told that there will be

:43:42.:43:49.

a new Department of business, energy and industry. Energy and climate

:43:50.:43:55.

change will move into a business Department. I would suggest that

:43:56.:43:59.

means energy policy would change because it will be even more by

:44:00.:44:04.

industry rather than by climate change as it was. We also understand

:44:05.:44:08.

that there could be a new infrastructure Department to be set

:44:09.:44:15.

up as well. Probably where transport could end up. Very interesting.

:44:16.:44:22.

These are quite major changes. I think more manger changes. Ted Heath

:44:23.:44:31.

brought in the environment Department and trade and industry

:44:32.:44:35.

and this is one of the biggest shake-up in Whitehall departments

:44:36.:44:42.

going way back to them. So how do these departments get organised?

:44:43.:44:46.

Let's listen to two of the men heading to two of the new

:44:47.:44:50.

departments. What are your priorities? We will decide those

:44:51.:44:57.

collectively. Are you going to be prioritising access to the single

:44:58.:45:03.

market? Wait and see. Is Boris Johnson your boss? I think we have

:45:04.:45:09.

tremendous opportunities to increase our global profile and we should be

:45:10.:45:14.

extraordinarily optimistic and confident about the future. The new

:45:15.:45:23.

Minister for trade, if I can call him that. Let's see how significant

:45:24.:45:30.

these Whitehall changes are. We are joined by Julian MacBrayne from the

:45:31.:45:33.

Institute for government. There is a lot more change than we thought when

:45:34.:45:42.

we booked you to come on. It does seem like a very large change to the

:45:43.:45:46.

structure of government and the shape of departments. David Cameron

:45:47.:45:51.

was very conservative about this. The bubbly because he didn't believe

:45:52.:45:55.

that changing things round made people concentrate on their day job.

:45:56.:46:04.

It reflects Theresa May's priorities. Francis you have been at

:46:05.:46:11.

the heart of government and there is a lot of talk on giving

:46:12.:46:16.

infrastructure a new role. A lot of talk that energy policy was a mess.

:46:17.:46:22.

Almost as big a mess as it is in Germany at the moment. A line that

:46:23.:46:28.

with the business Department, these are not changes for the sake of

:46:29.:46:32.

changes. They reflect the direction that this government wants to go.

:46:33.:46:37.

I am always sceptical about Whitehall changes, they cost money,

:46:38.:46:43.

you move deckchairs around... New titles, new plaques! The same people

:46:44.:46:49.

in slightly different desks. The theory is always that it creates

:46:50.:46:52.

joined up government, all that you do is move the boundaries to

:46:53.:46:56.

different places... And you disrupt all of the ways for people to work

:46:57.:47:01.

together across those boundaries. It is very disruptive. There can be

:47:02.:47:07.

benefits from it, the business Department, which I was partly in

:47:08.:47:10.

over the last year, I think that was poorly led, not officially led

:47:11.:47:16.

department, it needs shaking up. Poorly led by the permanent

:47:17.:47:22.

bureaucracy? Yes, I found it not a high functioning. Going back to

:47:23.:47:27.

education, which is where we were eight years ago. Yes, kind of makes

:47:28.:47:33.

sense. Yes, I understand universities are connected to

:47:34.:47:37.

education(!) and we have a couple of new departments, one for trade

:47:38.:47:41.

deals, Liam Fox, one with the specific task of negotiating our

:47:42.:47:45.

withdrawal from the European Union, where do they get the people for

:47:46.:47:49.

that? At the moment, you are right at the heart of this, easy to talk

:47:50.:47:53.

about reorganisation and abstract, Francis Maude is right, it is the

:47:54.:47:59.

same people you are trying to organise into the spaces, they are

:48:00.:48:03.

pulling in people from Whitehall, particularly into the Brexit

:48:04.:48:07.

department. That will go on to the next few weeks, this is literally

:48:08.:48:12.

finding desks, making sure people have the Internet connection, or

:48:13.:48:16.

whatever! When they get down to work they may base that on the

:48:17.:48:21.

infrastructure around the Cabinet Office. Trade is interesting,

:48:22.:48:26.

because there was a thought that maybe the Brexit minister would get

:48:27.:48:29.

trade, and create a proper permanent department that could go on, instead

:48:30.:48:33.

we have this department that is short-term, just doing the

:48:34.:48:36.

negotiation, and a trade Department separate from that. The Trade

:48:37.:48:40.

Minister is under instruction to do as many trade deals as they can. No

:48:41.:48:45.

one person can do that, travelling around the world to do that and do

:48:46.:48:53.

the renegotiation at the same time. That is right. It will be

:48:54.:48:57.

fascinating to see how money negotiations we can get under way.

:48:58.:49:01.

One month ago, Theresa May, two weeks ago, she did not know that she

:49:02.:49:05.

was going to be Prime Minister, when Ted Heath came in, 1970, he had

:49:06.:49:10.

given massive thought to how to reorganise Whitehall, and the

:49:11.:49:14.

departments, first-ever department of the environment in the Western

:49:15.:49:18.

world, big things. Even Tony and Gordon Brown made sure they had

:49:19.:49:21.

thought about them, debated them privately. Here we have major

:49:22.:49:26.

change, we have no evidence that Theresa May was ever thinking of any

:49:27.:49:32.

of this. And around elections, the opposition talks to civil servants

:49:33.:49:34.

very privately and give them warning, we put that in

:49:35.:49:39.

deliberately, this is hugely disruptive, people sitting at desks

:49:40.:49:41.

thinking, where am I working, where am I going to be based next? The

:49:42.:49:47.

wage levels between these departments are different... People

:49:48.:49:51.

spend ages talking about that. It is just... It is dangerous to stick

:49:52.:49:54.

this distraction on top of the huge challenges for government but also

:49:55.:49:58.

remember, we probably have too reorganise UK Government again as it

:49:59.:50:02.

becomes clear exactly what the new relationship is with Europe and what

:50:03.:50:05.

we have to do that we have not done previously. It is a little

:50:06.:50:09.

surprising that she has chosen to do this big change this quickly,

:50:10.:50:12.

presumably with this little planning. Thank you for that, it

:50:13.:50:17.

will keep the Institute of government in a job! LAUGHTER

:50:18.:50:20.

Rat problem and not necessarily that is at the forefront of the nation's

:50:21.:50:26.

mind... We can confirm, Jeremy Hunt will continue as Secretary of State

:50:27.:50:34.

for Health! We have managed to get that wrong about six different ways

:50:35.:50:38.

so far. Good to get the record straight, this is a press release by

:50:39.:50:42.

number ten. And a new leader for the House of Lords. Amanda is very good.

:50:43.:50:47.

She has been there a long time, very young, but extremely capable.

:50:48.:50:52.

Henrietta Barnet School and the adversity of Cambridge. State school

:50:53.:50:59.

educated, had now of the education Department. Again, plaintive Theresa

:51:00.:51:00.

May's rhetoric. we've just had a referendum

:51:01.:51:05.

in Britain's membership of the EU, it was only three weeks ago,

:51:06.:51:09.

although it might seem longer. But there have been calls from some

:51:10.:51:12.

quarters for a second referendum, from Labour leadership challenger

:51:13.:51:15.

Owen Smith. Later in the year MPs

:51:16.:51:17.

will debate a petition on Parliament's website calling

:51:18.:51:19.

for a second referendum after it was signed by more

:51:20.:51:21.

than four million people. The idea has already been debated

:51:22.:51:23.

in the House of Lords, talking about what she

:51:24.:51:26.

thinks should happen. In the interests of democracy, the

:51:27.:51:43.

British people must be given the chance to vote on the deal to leave

:51:44.:51:47.

the EU once we finally know what that deal is and what that deal

:51:48.:51:54.

costs, in terms of economy, pensions, global influence,

:51:55.:51:57.

geographical borders and last but not least our precious identity as a

:51:58.:52:03.

tolerant, open facing nation. I say, let the people decide.

:52:04.:52:08.

And to discuss the possibility of a second referendum or vote,

:52:09.:52:11.

I'm joined by the Labour MPs David Lammy and Frank Field.

:52:12.:52:14.

David voted to remain in the EU and Frank voted to leave.

:52:15.:52:19.

Is to make that clear. The online petition that calls for a second EU

:52:20.:52:24.

referendum will be debated in parliament, after it was signed by

:52:25.:52:29.

4.1 million people. Why, what is the point, there is not going to be a

:52:30.:52:34.

second referendum? We have a petition process, and actually, that

:52:35.:52:38.

is a record number of people for any petition I think that we have had.

:52:39.:52:42.

In the House of Commons. That is the first thing, people want it, the

:52:43.:52:45.

second thing is to say, there is no plan. When we say Brexit means

:52:46.:52:53.

Brexit, it is not clear what is the plan, there is a number of very

:52:54.:52:57.

morsel leavers who say, we will not get 250 million a week, how can you

:52:58.:53:01.

get free trade without free movement. -- very remorseful

:53:02.:53:15.

leavers. All of this is out there and we should be having a debate and

:53:16.:53:19.

vote in the House of Commons. Let's be clear, the petitions committee

:53:20.:53:22.

said that the debate did not mean that it was supporting the call,

:53:23.:53:26.

rerunning the referendum that we have just had, it was to change to

:53:27.:53:30.

-- too late to change the rules, having a debate is fine, what you

:53:31.:53:34.

are suggesting is having a referendum on the deal all the plan

:53:35.:53:39.

that is then put together, by Theresa May's government, you

:53:40.:53:43.

support that? My primary view is that it should come back to

:53:44.:53:45.

Parliament, there should be no Article 50 without Parliament

:53:46.:53:50.

acting, ultimately, the plan has to come back to Parliament or back to

:53:51.:53:55.

the people. What do you say to that, 4.1 million people, then at people

:53:56.:53:59.

who have buyers were most, and the plan that no one knows what it looks

:54:00.:54:05.

like, why shouldn't Parliament be the body that decides whether we

:54:06.:54:11.

actually trigger Brexit? -- buyers remorse. 17 million voting to come

:54:12.:54:17.

out, not surprisingly people might want another view, but the

:54:18.:54:24.

government has moved on, people may have noticed, the government has

:54:25.:54:26.

shaped itself about implementing the bridge that people wanted in that

:54:27.:54:33.

referendum. -- the pledge. We have the key ministries about how we

:54:34.:54:36.

disengage from the current relationship with Europe to forge a

:54:37.:54:42.

new one. The idea that it is going back on this, that is Coquelin. The

:54:43.:54:47.

government will not go back on this. The referendum result was advisory.

:54:48.:54:53.

That is true. You can say that. It is true. Theresa May does not think

:54:54.:54:57.

it is advisory, she is acting on it, the key first appointments were

:54:58.:55:00.

about implementing the referendum pledge, the idea that it was merely

:55:01.:55:04.

advisory, given the state politics is in and the distrust of

:55:05.:55:08.

politicians, is an absurd idea. David, catch up, it was a decisive

:55:09.:55:13.

vote, you may not like it, 4.1 million people may not like it but

:55:14.:55:17.

it has happened, and the government is moving ahead with trying to turn

:55:18.:55:21.

it, as they would argue, into something positive, there is no

:55:22.:55:25.

going back. You cannot describe a vote in which 67% of those eligible

:55:26.:55:31.

to take part did not vote for it as decisive. 16 million people in

:55:32.:55:37.

Britain did not vote to leave the EU, 13 million people stayed at

:55:38.:55:41.

home, I should imagine they like the status quo. If we want to remain a

:55:42.:55:45.

united country, let's listen to the advice, but recognise that a larger

:55:46.:55:51.

chunk of the country did not go for this, the economy is going south, we

:55:52.:55:55.

have no trade deals with any other country in the world, it will take

:55:56.:55:59.

quite a long time to negotiate them, we should pause and reflect, we

:56:00.:56:03.

should think very carefully about the future of this country, yes,

:56:04.:56:07.

access the advice, but access that many millions of people did not vote

:56:08.:56:13.

for Brexit. Many more than did. Last thing we want to do is pause, a

:56:14.:56:16.

decision has been made, the government is carrying it out, it is

:56:17.:56:22.

crucial that we get on implementing the agenda, the agenda is something

:56:23.:56:24.

different, where the tension is going to be, particularly acute for

:56:25.:56:28.

the Labour Party, the country has voted to leave, overwhelmingly

:56:29.:56:33.

Labour members of Parliament are in favour of staying. That is why David

:56:34.:56:37.

quite rightly says, bring it back to Parliament. Owen Smith, Ligue

:56:38.:56:41.

leadership challenger, he says that he would like a second vote. --

:56:42.:56:47.

leadership challenger. I'm speechless about the idea thinking

:56:48.:56:51.

that is relevant to what is happening at the present time. The

:56:52.:56:54.

key thing would be that the people have voted to come out, and there is

:56:55.:56:58.

a majority in parliament that wants to remain, the tension would be, how

:56:59.:57:03.

does the government manage the exit strategy. We have run out of time, I

:57:04.:57:07.

am afraid. Straight back to Norman Smith to get

:57:08.:57:11.

an update on the cabinet reshuffle. Norman, Jeremy to stay after all,

:57:12.:57:20.

Jeremy Hunt, did we get it wrong, has it been in and out? We got signs

:57:21.:57:27.

saying that he was being sacked and then moving on by his own polishing,

:57:28.:57:32.

then he turned up here, and then he comes out and he says he is staying

:57:33.:57:40.

where he is. -- his own violation. Theresa Villiers was offered another

:57:41.:57:45.

job and said, no, I am leaving, and trying to work out what that could

:57:46.:57:51.

be, perhaps it was Justine Greening, International the, perhaps she did

:57:52.:57:54.

not want to be traipsing around the world. -- volition. The other

:57:55.:58:00.

interesting thing about three civilians, from where I am sitting,

:58:01.:58:06.

I'm not seeing a whole load of women coming in here, as we have been

:58:07.:58:12.

promised. By my counting, she has lost Nicky Morgan, education, and

:58:13.:58:18.

she has lost Theresa Villiers, and I'm not seeing new faces, Amber Rudd

:58:19.:58:22.

was in cabinet, Justine Greening was there, and Liz Truss. I can only

:58:23.:58:28.

presume that we are going to see a lot of women this afternoon if

:58:29.:58:31.

Theresa May is going to meet her pledge to have a record number of

:58:32.:58:35.

women in this cabinet. We are going to leave it there and we are going

:58:36.:58:39.

to leave you looking for the women... (!) it is a job that

:58:40.:58:44.

somebody has to do... It is a safe job in your hands! LAUGHTER

:58:45.:58:47.

We look forward to updates throughout the afternoon.

:58:48.:58:50.

We did not have time to bring you our cartoonist, we simply ran out of

:58:51.:58:58.

time. Cartoons are always fun and we wanted to talk about how the

:58:59.:59:02.

cartoonist were going to depict Theresa May, we will have plenty of

:59:03.:59:06.

time to do that in the weeks and months ahead.

:59:07.:59:09.

The One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now.

:59:10.:59:12.

but I will be here at 11.45 pm for This Week

:59:13.:59:16.

with Alan Johnson, Michael Portillo, Alan Rosen,

:59:17.:59:17.

And I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big political stories

:59:18.:59:24.

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn are joined by former Conservative minister Francis Maude to discuss Theresa May's government appointments and the Brexit negotiations. Plus discussion of the Labour leadership contest and an interview with Labour MP David Lammy about whether there should be a second EU referendum.


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