21/07/2016 Daily Politics


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.


More than 180,000 people have signed up to Labour in just two days,


but how many of them have joined to support Jeremy Corbyn,


Mr Corbyn has this morning launched his campaign


to remain as Labour leader, with a promise to crackdown on firms


His challenger Owen Smith appears to have a mountain to climb.


Theresa May begun talks with European leaders


about the terms of Britain's exit from the EU - yesterday she was in


Berlin with Angela Merkel, will she have a trickier time


One month on from the referendum result which stunned the world,


we'll hear from a Vote Leave campaign insider about


And as MPs pack up and leave Westminster until September,


what books will they take with them to the beach?


We'll bring you their definitive summer reading list.


All that in the next hour and with us for the whole


of the programme today two journalists who may look


like a highbrow pair, but really they're just


as accessible and ready for the beach as any


Think of them as the Dan Brown and James Patterson


of political journalism - only without the sales figures.


It's Steve Richards and Fraser Nelson.


So, Parliament rises for its annual summer recess today,


many MPs have already left Westminster for their constituencies


and plenty of them will be breathing a sigh of relief after a period


in politics which has been more turbulent than any in recent memory.


But while some of them will be getting a holiday, for others it's


going to be a long hot summer with plenty of hard work


For Labour members it will be an unsettled few months,


as Storm Owen Smith takes on Cyclone Jeremy Corbyn.


The two will be travelling the country, as ballot papers sweep


And the results will be announced at a special conference


Two other parties will also have leadership contests over the summer.


On the first weekend of September we will find out which


Green Party hopeful will have their time in the sun.


And next week we get the final list of Ukip leadership hopefuls,


who come mid-September, will replace the El Nino of UK


The Conservatives are experiencing a calmer front now their leadership


question is settled, or at least as calm as it gets


in the post-referendum world of politics.


Theresa May will be hoping the Trade Winds are favourable


as she grapples with preparations for the Brexit negotiations -


having committed to triggering Article 50 by the end of the year.


And she'll be hoping to avert predictions of gathering


economic grey clouds, as yesterday the Bank of England


reported many companies were adopting a "business


as usual" approach after last month's referendum result.


Well, the Prime Minister has been visiting European leaders


to discuss her approach to leaving the EU.


Today she's due to meet with President Hollande


That follows her meeting yesterday with German Chancellor,


Mrs Merkel agreed with Mrs May that the UK shouldn't


rush for the exit door, but should take its time


I want to work with Chancellor Merkel and my colleagues around


the European Council in a constructive spirit,


to make this a sensible and orderly departure.


All of us will need time to prepare for these negotiations


and the United Kingdom will not invoke Article 50


That is why I have said already this will not happen before


I understand this timescale will not please everyone but I think


it is important to provide clarity on that now.


We should strive for a solution which respects the decision


of British voters, but also respects the interests of our


Together we should maximise the opportunities for


We're joined now by the Conservative MP Mark Field.


Welcome to the Daily Politics. The last one before the recess. First


meetings, you could say always contain warm words and it seemed to


go well. But that doesn't necessarily mean it will be easy


from now on Think everyone knows it is going to be tough. In the


Conservative Party we know that and I think that Angela Merkel's team


out in Germany are well awhich are there will be difficulties as we try


to extricate ourselves from the European Union. It was a positive


first meeting and it has been remarked by a number of political


commentator that is there are profound similarities in the


political stale of the two ladies, and I think it'll go well. It is


quite amazing, I suppose, to see two women together at the top of


politics, it isn't often that you see that. I think we will see more


of it in the months and years to come. It is a good thing, isn't it?


Well, any Scot will be well-used to seeing women at the top of the


#35r789. Full of them. Can't move without them? In Scotland, it is


leading world politics, in having women, as presiding officers and


leading parties. It may be unusual here but in Holyrood people have


been used to it for sometime. It could be perhaps, Hillary Clinton in


and perhaps, a female President of France. Well, before that happens,


Francois Hollande is still there in France. How tricky is that meeting


going to be? He is going to be frosier, isn't he? I think it will


be fine. Theresa May is an emollient politician. In contrast to Gordon


Brown, nine years ago, he was almost bereft of ideas and a spent force.


What has surprised everyone with Theresa May, she is full of ideas,


firm ideas, on what she hopes to do, for example, to encourage social


mobility which seems to have gone downhill. She's not enthralled by


the way, Blair, Brown and Cameron and Osborne were with the City and


metropolitan values. There is a real sense of mission there. But she


doesn't know what she is going to do with Brexit and that at the moment


will be the defining issue. I think you are right about that in one


sense, however it is all the more reason why she has a domestic agenda


she is also looking to put together. We don't know how long the Brexit


issue will take. Don't get me wrong, I'm in the unreal it be, it is going


to be a dark cloud with difficulties for the political class. It is all


the more reason why what has been interesting, is she hasn't defined


the early days of her Prime Ministerier by Brexit. We know by


Mrs America Mark, she said to her own Parliament, that the UK can't


cherry pick. - Mrs Merkel. And that will be the potential pit


fall. I think it will be unrealistic to think that we can cherry pick on


single market and passporting without having to give some leeway


as far as free movement is concerned. However, I think you also


have to remember there is a lot of volitility throughout Europe. We


have elections in France and Germany. The Italian banks are in


deep trouble. Actually, we have to remember we are going to be having


this negotiation over the next two or three years once Article 50 is


triggered but that's not going to be taking place in a vacuum, it will be


being taking place in a volatile situation in the rest of Europe,


there are tremendous opportunities, pro-I had vooing we diplomatically


we grasp them. How do you assess her chances of getting a deal to sell to


the British people With great difficulty. This early period


reminds me of when John Major took over, it felt like a new Government


after a traumatic period for the Conservative Party. He moved away


from the past, abolishing things like the poll tax, which was


associated with the Thatcherite passed and the way that Theresa May


has moved away from the Cameroons now. But Europe hovered for John


Major in the form of the Maastricht Treaty. And Brexit hovers for


Theresa May and it is bigger and more problematic than max trict even


though it was a nightmare for John Major. Although it feels fresh and


new and she has moved into the job with poise. This is the honeymoon


period and Brexit does pose many, many nightmarish problems for her.


Immigration will be one of them. She restated about the commitment to


bring net migration down to tens of thousands. She said it would take


sometime. A realisation that perhaps it just isn't achievable. Well, not


for the next ten years, anyway. If you look at the projections, nobody


envisaging that happening. But interestingly she says will will


control free movement rather than abolish it. This relishes the


prospect... Of of a deal being done. Jiem' snot as gloomy as stee. There


are many ways of leaving the EU. Britain voted for a way. I don't


think there are many rocks ahead of her. But you have to satisfy many of


the people who voted for Brexit and who wouldn't control of movement.


But people voted for a different range of reasons. I think the schism


could be the eurozone verses the EU I think there is an opportunity if


we go down an down the Norwegian route, the EU-light approach, we


would have a situation like the Czechs and Swedes, over the next few


years. If it is achievable, of course. Let's look at the banking


industry. There are companies like that sector that have been able to


operate across the EU as long as they have a base in the UK called


passporting that. Will not continue until a new deal is arranged for


them as well? It'll continue until we know what will happen. Truth of


the matter is obviously that will be something that will have to be


negotiated to a certain extent. I think it is true to say... Are you


worried about it? Think it is true to say that the City of Europe will


lose some of that bishops it would be naive to think some won't go to


Dublin, Frankfurt or Paris. How big a hit will it be? There are


opportunities that also arise. One of the things about the City of


London and I was saying this before the referendum it is not an Joan


shore centre for Europe it is an off-shore centre for around the


world that brings problems as well but tlurnts as a global financial


centre. You have talked about them, but we don't know how they are going


to form, fair enough. In the meantime you would expect other EU


countries to jump in there. We have heard the French Prime Minister say


- we want it build the financial capital, you remember Boris Johnson


saying to the French businesses come to London, now they will do that in


reverse. The same arguments were put is a years ago when we didn't join


the euro. And the critical mass of London is stronger against Paris or


Frankfurt since that time. I'm in the naive thinking there will not be


difficulties but I don't think it is all doom and gloom and it won't be


easy for par toys reinvent itself as a financial global cap. A how much


goodwill is there across the EU to what Britain is trying to do? I


think it is wrong to look at it with good L I agree with Mark. It'll be


fine with France tonight, in tonal atmospherics, here is a new Prime


Minister. But they will have to calculate what is in their own


self-interest, so for example, the French presidential election will


play a bigger calculation in how France plays this over the next 12


months rather than goodwill on either side. Similarly the next


German election which will be uppermost in Merkel's mind. This is


where the game of chess gets so complicated. They will have to


calculate what their electorates are thinking... Are prepared to...


Prepared to accept. On the whole issue of free, movement, for


example, the rise of Le Pen in France, may well mean the French are


happy to row in behind some sort of hybrid deal we could be talking


about come the early part of 2017. So there are opportunities, the


diplomacy element and one thing I would say which has been evident, so


many European reads such perfect English and read our primary


sources. The one thing many of our ministers have to do is not spend


their time with a mega phone saying what they are going to end up doing.


The difficulty is so many people now read the Times and Telegraph on a


daily basis... And all publications. The The contrast we have, we pick up


once a month what is happening in the economist from Swedish politics


and you what is happening in Italy cops from a diplomat. I think we


need to, as I say we have a stronger hand that we might think and need to


play the diplomatic cards carefully. Well, thank you very much.


Now it's time for our daily quiz, and it's all about former


It's been reported this morning that before last year's general election


Mr Clegg spent two days and close to ?8,000 doing something


that the party hoped would show he could be "fun".


Did he, A) Go to a theme park in a baseball cap?


C) Film his own version of a pop video?


Or D) Erect a 'Cleggstone' in his back garden?


At the end of the show Steve and Fraser


The Labour Party is gearing up to spend a second consecutive summer


While last year's was all about Jeremy Corbyn's surge


from nowhere to beat his more established rivals, this year's


looks like being a hard-fought and bitterly divisive contest


between Mr Corbyn and his challenger Owen Smith, who is backed


The election, which ends in September, is being fought


on a one-member-one-vote basis, and there's been a scramble to sign


In the past 48 hours, an extra 183,000 people have paid


?25 to become registered supporters and vote in the ballot.


That means a total of more than ?4.5 million for the party coffers.


It's not clear how many people were signing up to vote


for or against Mr Corbyn, but a spokesman for Mr Corbyn has


said it is "reasonable to assume" that the majority


of the new registrations come from supporters of the


Well, Owen Smith is holding a rally in Birmingham later today,


and this morning he was asked whether he was worried


about lots of the new registrations being from Corbyn supporters.


Well, they might be, but we don't know, do we?


Let's be blunt, we don't know how those people have joined.


I've got friends who have joined, one or two, because they want


I'm sure a couple of Jeremy's friends have joined, as well.


If they do end up being on that side, it looks pretty difficult


for you, would that end up in a split of the party?


The reason I'm running is very simply because I think the party


is in danger of splitting and if we do split the Labour Party


So that was Owen Smith, let's listen now to Jeremy Corbyn


launching his re-election campaign in London just a short while ago.


I wish they were all on board and I wish they would play a full part in


the economic debate yesterday when euro John McDonnell -- when John


McDonnell was really putting this to the government. We have a government


creating worse divisions in our country, and it is their job to get


behind the campaign against this government. This party is going


places, it is strong and capable of winning a general election, and if


I'm leader of the party I will be that Prime Minister.


We're joined now by the Labour MP Kerry McCarthy, she's supporting


Owen Smith for leader, and Barbara Ntumy from Momentum


which is an organisation supporting Jeremy Corbyn.


Barbara, what is the evidence that the majority of new registrations


are Jeremy Corbyn supporters? Momentum had a lot of people engaged


and we did a lot of recruiting of getting people to sign up for just


?25 and we are very confident, even though we don't know the numbers,


but we are confident people have joined to support Jeremy. There was


also the saving Labour campaign, people were urging people to come


together to save the Labour Party because this is absolute crisis


point as Owen said, and there were people who signed up through that,


you can't assume that the people that voted for Jeremy last time are


going to vote for him this time. I've spoken to people in my


constituency who say they realised they did the wrong thing. It is


interesting. Just one example, one of the lobby correspondents said the


latest sampling of 183,000 new registrations are 60-40 in favour of


Owen Smith. That is a surprise, but there are many people already


members, Jeremy Hunt the support of many of the members, not just the ?3


voters, and in the next week we will have Jeremy and Owen putting their


manifesto forward, and I'm slightly worried that Owen is pitching to the


left, because Jeremy has changed the debate, so people know they have got


to say the things that people can hold onto. You say you are worried,


surely that would fill you with confidence? I'm worried he is


pitching to the left even though he is not that left, his record does


not show that he has been campaigning on these issues, he


abstained on the welfare debate, you can't abstain on very crucial things


which will affect millions of people. As Secretary of State for


Work and Pensions Owen led the charge against tax credits where we


got the government to do a U-turn, the government MPs voted against it.


This is a nonsense line which is being peddled, in the same way they


tried to cast aspersions on commitment to the NHS which is free


at the point of delivery, we have got to get away from that. We need a


genuine and honest debate about these candidates and what they stand


for and what they can do and what their abilities are. It is not just


what you say, it is what you do as a politician and whether you have a


strategy for dealing with the crisis the country finds itself in. I


agree, is what you do. I find it hard to believe that loads of people


that resign from the Shadow Cabinet are now saying they tried their best


to work with him, if you look at what has unfolded, it seems half the


effort was put in and the other half was thinking of a way to get rid of


him. It was not a spontaneous thing, it was very organised. You can't


spend time saying you are trying to work hard with someone, and then


throw that away at the drop of a hat. 80% of the Parliamentary Labour


Party, that spans all the politics which exists within the


Parliamentary Labour Party, certainly. I did not think he was


doing a great job as leader and I did not support him to become leader


but I recognised he had a mandate. In my case I was disappointed with


his lack of leadership, and it was obvious he was not fully on board


with the Remain campaign. There seemed a complete lack of concern,


used the phrase, we campaigned around the country but we were


ultimately unsuccessful, and that is all he said, but everyone else said


it was devastating, so many issues we need to be addressing. We are


looking to the leader to set out what happens next. We had a PLP


hustings on Monday and Jeremy said we have two years to trigger article


50 and that brings it home. That is not even true. He does not


understand... He does not understand anything about Brexit. Labour


supporters of voted to stay, it was Ukip and the Conservative supporters


who voted to leave, you cannot blame Brexit on Jeremy Corbyn. Don't talk


over each other. I'm not blaming Jeremy Corbyn for the referendum


result, but I do think he was very lacklustre during the campaign. What


I was looking for after the referendum result, a sign that he


was bothered about it, and he did not seem bothered at all, but also


that he had a sense of where we were going to go next. He called for


article 50, only him and Nigel Farage called for it to be triggered


immediately, and that shows he did not understand what the situation


was and the importance of triggering Article 50 and at the PLP hustings


on Monday he said we have two years to trigger article 50 which is not


the case. He doesn't understand and he doesn't really care about it. To


the nature of the campaign. Jeremy Corbyn says he doesn't want the


contest to end up in the gutter. We are going to put up a poster, pitch


of Jeremy Corbyn and Owen Smith, in a moment, does this represent not


going to the gutter? -- a picture. Owen Smith says he was invited to a


defence event because it was a significant employer in his


constituency, but he didn't go. Is that post-affair? I did not make the


poster. -- poster fair? Jeremy Corbyn supporters have done it.


Should it be called out? Definitely, it is not accept of all, but none of


this started with Jeremy and it will not end with Jeremy. People have


gone out of their way. It is never as nasty as this. Women are attacked


on Twitter for having certain politics. You don't think that the


intimidation of women MPs that has been cited by those women


themselves, you don't think that is exaggerated? Not saying it is worse,


it is something that has always existed and we should continue to


say it is an acceptable, but I'm very concerned when the narrative is


given that this is only happening because of Jeremy and he is


instigating it when that is not necessarily true. Is that really


fair? I've been a member of the Labour Party 25 years and all of my


colleagues that have been involved, they say it has never been as nasty


as this now. Social media exaggerates it because it is easier


to attack people and you have anonymous trolls, but it feels far


more on present than anything I can remember and I feel it is stoked up,


the narrative of betrayal. Everyone who doesn't support Jeremy is a


traitor, unprincipled, has no socialist values and no place in the


Labour Party. He has encouraged it. He says he would like to reach out


to Labour MPs and he would like them to come back into the Labour fold


which is growing under him because of the increasing party membership.


He said that again this morning. He also said he doesn't expect this


loyalty from MPs if he wins again and there is a threat there that


there would be increasing cause for the selection of MPs that don't


support him. Should that happen? -- calls. They need to decide how to


hold the representative to account. It feels like people are not willing


to put differences aside to try and work together as much as possible,


and constituencies should hold the elected representative to account.


Jeremy voted against the Labour whip over 500 times, he called for John


Smith to have a leadership challenge two months after he was elected,


with 91% of the vote. Those were the things he did then. Five days after


Black Wednesday and we were ahead in the polls. It seems to be one rule


for Jeremy and one for everyone else. What will happen in the


contest? I've just read the polls. Actually, Paul has which those


figures around, it is 60-40 in favour of Jeremy Corbyn. A


significant turnaround and that confirms a poll in the times on


their front page, yesterday. We must assume at this stage Jeremy Corbyn


starts miles ahead and they are highly effective at organising these


kind of events as we know from last summer. If that proves to be the


case it raises a number of questions about what the Labour MPs are trying


to achieve through this. I've been doing a 3-part series on Corbyn's


first year and the last goes out on Monday on Radio 4 and it is clear


that there was very little coordination amongst the dissenters


after the referendum. Margaret Hodge did one thing. Hilary Benn did


something else. The Shadow Cabinet did something else. When John


McDonnell said at a rally the other day, I won't repeat it exactly, but


he said they are not very good at organising. Use the supporters, yes.


That is proving to be the case so far. -- useless. It Jeremy Corbyn


wants this as a long-term project he needs a different parliamentary


party and the Parliamentary party needs a different leader, that much


is clear. In terms of the party, the figures are astounding, in terms of


new membership, the money that will be rolling into the Labour Party for


the first time in many years, that is also pretty astounding. There's


also the massive disconnect the mechanic a movement in the way that


Jeremy Corbyn and the grassroots supporters think without the


Parliamentary party? -- massive disconnect, but can it be a


movement. Yes, it can be, the people who have just signed up, that is


more than the Tory party membership, so it is a movement. Can it be a


government? That is not the aim of Jeremy Corbyn, his aim is to capture


the Labour Party with his hard left views. It is not hard left. The


thing is, we want to form a government and Jeremy has been very


effective in opposing the Tories and their cuts and he has been very


effective on issues of social justice. Actually fund education.


Many older people have the chance to go to education for free, the cost


of rising is -- the cost of living is rising. It is enough. Things can


be better and we want things to be better and we understand you need to


be in government to do that and that is what we are doing. We will knock


on the doors, we went out on our hundreds to knock on the doors for


Sadiq Khan to be the Mayor of London, we need to stop distort the


facts, we want Jeremy Corbyn to be Prime Minister and we want the


country to be better for everyone and not just a few people. That is


the passion of view, Jeremy Corbyn can lead a Labour government into


the government. He's not electable, he's not a future Prime Minister,


and when I go... On the Bristol MP, there are parts of Bristol where he


goes down very well, amongst the former Green voters, people who are


in organisations, but if I go out to be more traditional Labour voters,


it is hard to convince them that he could be a Prime Minister. He wants


to speak to those people, the evidence is that Ed Miliband has


lost Labour loads of support, but Jeremy said... You said it would be


a disaster when he came, but he has not lost any by-elections. Can I ask


one question regarding the rules, is it right that the Jeremy Corbyn


supporters have offered to pay ?25 for anyone to back their leader? Is


that right? It was heartbreaking when I heard that the NEC had


decided... Shore. -- that is fine. The problem is, wider working class


people have to pay so much -- wider working class people have to pay so


much to be a member of the party? Thanks for joining us.


Today marks one month since Britain voted to leave the EU -


A result that surprised the pollsters, the pundits


Recently on the show we had an 'in' campaigner


reflecting on what went wrong, and today we're going to hear


from a central figure in the Leave campaign


Here's Vote Leave's chief executive, Matthew Elliott, with his account


So, Big Ben has struck 10.00pm, and we can now start


trying to discover which side thinks it's carried the day.


At 10.00pm on 23rd June, the consensus was that Vote


A contact of mine at Number 10 texted me to say,


And even Nigel Farage was predicting a Remain victory.


But after our final conference call with Boris Johnson, Michael Gove,


and Dominic Cummings, our campaign director,


Gisela Stuart and I were still upbeat.


People were talking that we'd lost, the evidence wasn't there.


And, of course, as the evening went by, it became clearer and clearer


that we were winning but I did not accept it until David Dimbleby said,


"We can now officially declare that Vote Leave has won."


I kept saying, "We need two speeches."


The UK has voted to leave the European Union.


I kept saying, "We need two speeches."


But this was not really reciprocated.


The mood was - we only need a speech to concede defeat gracefully,


but you and I didn't quite see it that way.


Getting to that point was a long road.


Five years ago I ran the "No to AV" referendum campaign.


I took on this challenge, the test run for a possible EU referendum.


We manageded to turn public opinion from being 2-1 in favour


of electoral reform, to being 2-1 against.


Alongside me at No to AV was Peter Crudder.


When I joined No to AV it was a bit political.


It needed that injection of business knowledge.


I think the same applied to Vote Leave.


What I brought was this business acumen.


Having the funding and the right campaign team in place


for Vote Leave was essential but we had three big


We were taking on the establishment, we were fighting Ukip.


And we had to overcome the natural bias in a referendum


To take on the establishment, we needed to recruit big


We needed to show swing voters that serious people from politics,


business and other walks of life, backed voting Leave.


If you look back to 1975, one of the reasons why the Leave


campaign then was so unsuccessful was because leading political


figures were seen as very much outliers, in some cases extremists.


So to demonstrate there were senior, centrist, moderate figures


campaigning to leave the European Union, I hope


made a real contribution to the result of the referendum.


But at the same time as taking on the establishment,


we were also fighting Ukip and Nigel Farage.


We knew that swing voters didn't want to feel they were voting


Resisting the overtures from Ukip, to create a properly


cross-party campaign, was probably the toughest


aspect of the referendum for the campaign team.


But at one point, the group closest to Ukip - Leave.EU -


sent out a statement to MPs and the media, saying that


Dominic Cummings and I couldn't run a sweet shop and Nigel Farage


appeared on the Daily Politics saying both of us should be sacked.


This was a massively stressful period and the pressure


A week before the referendum, we were riding high.


Vote Leave had punctured a hole in project fear by organising 60 MPs


to say they would vote against George Osborne's Brexit


budget and we had the wind in our sails but then Nigel Farage


unveiled the most controversial poster of the referendum.


The Breaking Point image was damaging enough


but in the context of Jo Cox's murder, it threatened


Thankfully it was clear to voters that Ukip was not


The final challenge we faced was to overcome the natural


status quo bias of any referendum campaign.


As was the case with the Alternative Vote,


or Scottish independence, the change side often loses


because people's natural caution kicks in.


We had to show how there was no status quo.


We highlighted the risk of Remain and we showed how Leave


Getting to what people feel, rather than what they say,


is where the future of research is and this is what we did


and the one key thing that emerged on this was the strength


of emotional connectivity with that "take control" argument.


So that single message was actually a decision of genius, in many ways,


because it was exactly what people could understand.


It was something that people just got.


It cut through straightaway to so many people.


At Vote Leave we were challenged for telling voters that the UK


is billed ?350 million each week for our membership of the EU.


It is a legitimate figure, it is entirely right.


We emblazoned this figure on our bus and on our literature and our


spokespeople repeated it again and again.


In direct comparison to the arguments for Remain,


around the perceived impact on the economy in a head-to-head


question, if you like, the ?350 million question won every


At heart, I'm a policy wonk before I'm a referendum campaigner.


At Vote Leave we probably achieved the biggest policy change, ever,


A month on, the repercussions from Vote leave victories have


The economic scares that people predicted haven't materialised.


British politics has been turned upside down.


And even the European Union is showing signs of reform.


As Liam Fox wrote on Vote Leave's white board on referendum night,


Is it true there was only one speech written for night? I was with Gisela


Stuart had seemed astounded by the are you, delighted but astounded and


the only speech that had been written was the one to condition


seed defeat. I think the most difficult speech to make was to


concede defeat. A victory speech was easier. Was there only one? There


was one but about midnight she started skripling away on her


victory acceptance speech. You say you were always confident but not


everyone in Vote Leave was so sure? From February, once we saw the deal


and terrain, we felt sure if it got to the final stage of the


referendum, it was still 50-50, still in contention, then we could


get across the line and win. We knew we had - our voters were more


enthusiastic and we felt our ground game was better. On the ground game.


Let's talk about a that ?350 #34i8 yob fichlingt you say you make no


aapproximately joy for t but you promised something you couldn't


deliver and you knew you couldn't deliver ?350 million being spent on


the NHS. So you lied, effectively. I disagree. A referendum campaign is


very different to an election, in the sense that... You don't have to


at the time truth... We are a campaign team, we are campaigning


for a certain result and we hoped that the Government would use that


money for the NHS. You didn't say, that you said "Lets avenue give our


NHS the ?350 million the EU takes every week." That was disputed that


?3 #r50 million was sent to the EU, in fact it was disproved but then to


promise that amount, which people distanced themselves from


immediately afterwards s dishonest. The key point was, it could have


been delivered by the Government, we would have liked it could have been


delivered by the Government but Vote leave didn't become the Government


afterwards. What about the in-fighting? You talked about that


and said it was difficult to deal with. Was it something that really


undermined the Vote Leave campaign? The key point was, we had the vision


of a cross-party business-led campaign involving senior people


from business, politics, the military other walks of life. It was


the best way of conadvicing swing voters it was a moderate, sensible,


mainstream thing to do, to vote Leave. It was why it was important


that we weren't dominated by Ukip and had a separate independent


campaign. You were on the Leave side, Fraser, were you surprised?


Yes, really surprised. I don't know any journalist o actually who


predicted that Leave would win. The polls repeatedly told us otherwise,


we knew not to trust them from last time around but you would think they


would have their house in order. The momentum seemed to be going with the


Government's side. Pretty much every single member of the establishment,


on behalf of the status quoe, the Government, blink and all economists


and you had a rag tag bag of insurgents on the other side. So, I


didn't know anybody who predicted a Brexit strike but one arrived in


what was certainly the most extraordinary political victory in


our living memory. It feels like a lifetime now since the vote, or it


does to us anyway. Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, key personalities in


that Leave campaign. They won the war, if you like, but they haven't


been anywhere in the piece? Well, Boris is Foreign Secretary. But one


of the extraordinary things about politics is what follow a tumultuous


event, like you have just brilliantly described, is never


logical. So you have a Remain Prime Minister in place, albeit one that


kept a very low-profile during the referendum. Michael Gove, nowhere to


be seen. If you like, Boris Johnson, it was a surprise even to him, I


think in the end. What, becoming Foreign Secretary? He had two


surprises, Michael Gove suddenly standing, an extraordinary


Shakespearean drama and then returning when many people were


saying, well he is going back to writing books. That was a major


weakness, I think in the campaign, that was there no follow-through.


The lack of organisation was jaw-dropping, staggering and I


think, indefensible. On that, looking ahead, what about a group


being formed to hold the Brexit department to account? To watch for


any, as you would no doubt see t backsliding? I think there is a need


for a group to work with the Government. You have groups like the


Centre for Social Justice who work closely with Iain Duncan Smith or


the networks that worked with Michael Gove when he was at the


Department for Education so there might be a need for a group to


expand on the idea. Do you think there should be one? I think so.


Would you be part of that? We will have to wait and see. This is what


is being talked about now, is holding Government it account.


Absolutely, the important thing to my mind, state of the EU immigrants,


throughout the campaign, everybody said there should be no question


that EU immigrants should stay here, no question of repatriation,


everyone said that, and Theresa May has put the skids under three


million nationals living in Britain. They are being sent letters up in


Scotland saying, you are OK for now. The lack of precision in the


immediate aftermath. I don't blame the Brexiteers, they had to win a


campaign and they won T I don't blame what you did in the NHS. All


is fair in a xavenlt I blame David Cameron for offering this in the


first place, as a binary referendum, on in or out, where no-ones with a


under any pressure to explain what out would mean in any great deat the


same time. You had a campaign to win, but that's a different


objective, which you did brilliantly and that is the problem with


referendums. I understand why he felt he had to call t but they are


dangerous devices because you then, once it is called, you just focus on


how you win it. And the threshold... And now face the consequences and


no-one is entirely sure what it is going to mean. Did you enjoy it? I


loved T However difficult it was. Would you have said that if you had


lost? Of it a tough year, it was a really tough year, but it feels a


great sense of achievement. Yes, because you won. I think it would


have been much tougher if we had lost. Well, you didn't so thank you


very much. Now, let's turn to the situation, in


Turkey. Following last Friday's failed army


coup, President Erdogan has declared a state of emergency in the country


for three months, giving him More than 50,000 state employees


have been rounded up, sacked or suspended in recent days,


as the government says it is attempting to root out


the "virus" behind the coup. Well let's speak now


to our correspondent Nick, have there been any further


developments? Well, the people are really trying to digest, now, the


news of this state of emergency. The President announced it late last


night, just before midnight. We know it'll last for three months. Under


the constitution it could have lasted significance months and some


of his critics are clutching at straws really, saying perhaps this


is not as bad as it could have been. Anyway, Turkey, since the coup, only


five or six days ago, has been living under a kind of de facto


state of emergency anyway, so some people, even critics of the


government are saying - better to know where we stand than to be in


this sort of legal quagmire. People, however, are also concerned, what


will happen now? The huge numbers you referred to, more than 50,000


people suspended from their jobs. Teachers called back from their


summer holidays to be told they are now under investigation. More than


6,000 arrests in the army, 100 top generals, more than one in four of


the top brass of the military here all under arrest. So a lot of


concern in society. A lot of worry but also a sense that this Turkey


just survived a coup. A military attacks on Parliament and police


headquarters, so there is also some understanding that clear, firm


measures are needed at a time like this. Thank you very much.


We're joined now by the Liberal Democrat peer Meral Hussein -


she sits on the all-party parliamentary group for Turkey.


It sounds devastating in terms of the scale of the state of emergency.


The state of emergency was five days late. As the president said last


night, Francis had a state of emergency since last November. --


France has had. People are still reeling from the repercussions of


the attempted coup and people in Turkey have memories of the last


four attempted coups and so they feel very much in favour of the


president, and the majority, that includes Kurds and secular wrists.


Looking at it very simply, it is the Muslims are more in favour of what


the President is saying, it has been said. People are coming together to


give support to the button which is unprecedented. Amnesty International


says there's a crackdown of exceptional proportions, do you


think they are wrong? It is exceptional, but we don't know... Is


it justified? We don't know. The people feel there is a conspiracy,


people in all sections of public life embedded who are sympathisers


who have had a hand in this coup, and the president has said he's


going to this out. The majority of people think this is a good thing


but it seems he is going way too far and we don't know what is going to


come out the other end, what kind of society is going to emerge. The


question is, has he always wanted to do this? We know from following his


government in Turkey, there have already been moves to clamp down on


certain freedoms in the press, for example. He's now doing what he


wants. He is, it is true that he was clamping down on freedom of the


media and journalists, but there was a strong indication that he was


moving against certain sections of the military and the other


establishment before the coup and people in Turkey I've spoken to have


said to me this coup was pre-empting what they thought he might have


done. Is this the beginning of the end of democratic rule in Turkey? It


looks as if he is taking this opportunity to clamp-down on away


which is staggering in scale -- a way. He's really going for the


academic and universities, teachers, everybody. An extraordinary


reaction. You are better placed to make judgments on internal targets


politics, but it seems the assessment early on was it was a


clumsy ill judged coup but it has been treated as if it was the most


extraordinary threat to this government. Clearly by implication,


people were involved in every walk of Turkish society, if he is going


to justify this level of clamp-down, but I think he's using it as a


excuse to seize control of every element of Turkish society. These


people involved in the coup, beyond the military, what should the EU do


question up we are doing this deal which has been successful in terms


of stemming the flow of migrants through grace -- what should the EU


do? We have given them billions in aid, to Turkey. The EU was pretty


useless before and it will be so now. Right now Germany, Italy, they


are terrified, so they are in a weak position if Erdogan loses, I cannot


see any punishment working at the moment. That is the problem with the


EU, it is great as a free-trade bloc, but as a political entity,


useless. What do you think is going to happen? I think it will go


further and I agree with Steve, he's Bubba be taking this as an


opportunity to get firmer control -- he's probably taking this as an


opportunity. The EU have lost any influence they have had, and the


fact the United Kingdom, after what happened in the Brexit campaign, in


which Turkey was the fight, because of the poster and all the rest of it


-- in which Turkey was vilified. I was talking to friends last night,


they say the majority of the Turkish public and they think the UK and the


United States are involved in a conspiracy to shut down their


democracy, they really believe this. They were slow to condemn the coup


and they don't seem to be taking it as serious way in terms of the


United States wanting a next edition, so there are many aspects


to this, layer upon layer. -- wanting an extradition. Thanks for


joining us. With Parliament rising MPs are


leaving Westminster until September. They'll be able to concentrate


on work in their constituencies, fight the odd leadership battle,


and in some cases even manage So what will they be reading


if they do make it as a far Come aboard London's floating book


shop for a selection from the MPs' Want to know more


about the Labour leader? How about Comrade Corbyn by former


lobby journalist Rosa Prince. Everyone is desperate for insight


into the new Prime Minister. Our Joe is a biography of the former


Conservative mayor of Birmingham in the 19th century,


Joseph Chamberlain. Written by Theresa May's chief


of staff Nick Timothy. We've recently increased our stock


of ex-prime ministers by one and here's a trio of prime


ministerial biographies. First of all this one of Tony Blair


by the investigative journalist Tom Bower,


called Broken Vows. And then there is this book


about Harold Wilson called What a nice way to celebrate 100


years since he was born. And finally this book about Disraeli


called The Novel Politician. If you want the insider account


of the last government, how about Coalition by the former


Liberal Democrat If you want to get really insidery,


how about the Black Door? It is all about how prime ministers


have interacted with 100 years since the Easter


uprising in Ireland. If you want to know about that,


Fearghal McGarry has drawn on 1700 If you want to visit the battlefield


of the Somme, Major and Mrs Holt have written


the definitive guide of where to go. If you fancy something


historical but a bit lighter, All about the epic task of keeping


Britain fed in the Second World War. I love visiting friends


in their posh mansions, and now you can read about it


in a book called The Long weekend: Life in the English Country


House Between The Wars. And if you can't bear the idea


of being away from Westminster, don't worry, you could always


read Mr Barry's War, all about rebuilding parliament


after it burnt down in 1834, or my colleague Ben Wright's book


about politics and alcohol. And Keith Simpson joins


us now to tell us more He's moved a branch of Waterstones


into the studio, have you read all of them? No, but a fair number. What


recommendations? I would start, not necessarily on the beach, but Nick


Timothy's Our Joe, Joseph Chamberlain's Conservative legacy,


Nick Timothy wrote this for the Conservative history group and he is


now the joint Chief of staff with Theresa May. You can see parts of


this went into her speech at Birmingham and then her speech


outside number ten. You will see a template for government under


Theresa May? I think you will. It is about what Joseph chamber and was


doing in Birmingham, to alleviate the lot of the people at the bottom


of the social ladder -- Joseph Chamberlain was doing in Birmingham.


You can see this has influenced her. It is also short, it would be a good


one to start with. There are some pictures. At the lighter end, a


wonderful book called the long weekend, life in the end this


country house between the wars and he combines the stories of amazingly


eccentric people. One of these country houses, they needed to put


wiring and the owner refused to have the floor pulled up, and they got


round it by putting a dead rabbit at one end and a ferret and they tied


to the ferret a string and the wire, and I'm not making that up. I


imagine that was very smelly. Looking at the list, as I did. It is


quite heavy. Even by your standards, quite a heavy list of books in terms


of content. It is serious, part and parcel of the time we are living in,


we are in a serious mood and Theresa May is a very serious politician and


Jeremy Corbyn is, as well. If someone else would like to produce


another list. The Lady Whipp said she was going to be choose a list of


chick lit but she has not got round to it. No one is going to compete


against you. What Angel fancy? The Nick Timothy Burke. -- what takes


your fancy? There are very few speeches from sick terry macro, but


we know Nick Timothy is probably more influential than any adviser in


the direction of government because she trusts so few people -- there


are very few speeches from Theresa May. What about for you Steve? The


Joe Chamberlain one and maybe the Harold Wilson won, because Harold


Wilson won a referendum on Europe in 1975 and he knew how to win. Maybe


you should have read that before the referendum. Maybe David Cameron


should. He knew how to win elections and keep his party at gully -- keep


his party united, skills which Theresa May and whoever leads Labour


will require. Any laughs? Yes, this one. I have stolen a review copy


from the Spectator. If you are a Scottish right-winger like me, this


is wonderful. That might be a niche market. There are a few others. All


reading this on the beach in the summer. It was funny comedy, sage


and with Ken Clarke. -- it was funny, the conversation with Ken


Clarke. I have put some books on the list, including Ken Clarke's memoirs


which is coming out in time for the party conference, and Denis


Healey's, he has a broad hinterland, you have him coming out, Ed Balls's


memoir and a view of politics, just in time for the Labour Party. The


title of his book? Putting the boot in. LAUGHTER


Actually, I can't remember. If I was a Labour member, there is a


biography of Clement Attlee coming out in time for the Labour Party


conference. There's just time before we go


to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was what did Nick Clegg


spend two says and nearly ?8,000 doing to show that he could be fun


during the last election campaign? A) Go to a theme park


in a baseball cap C) Film his own version


of a pop video Or D) Erect a 'Cleggstone'


in his back garden. It has got to be the pop video. It


is. But we have not seen it, of course.


That's all for today, and that's all from the Daily


We'll be back when Parliament returns on Monday 5th September -


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