Browse content similar to 06/09/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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weather for eastern parts of England. | :00:00. | :00:38. | |
Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics and Westminster, | :00:39. | :00:40. | |
where many are asking if the Labour MP, Keith Vaz, | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
He's under growing pressure to consider his position as head | :00:44. | :00:50. | |
of a Commons' committee after a Sunday newspaper claimed | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
he paid for the services of two male prostitutes. | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
He's expected to be urged by colleagues to stand down today. | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
Brexit means leaving the EU, according to the new Brexit | :01:02. | :01:03. | |
He gave a confident first statement to MPs, but what if anything | :01:04. | :01:09. | |
For most of its history the Green Party refused | :01:10. | :01:16. | |
We'll be talking to the power couple taking part in the first job share | :01:17. | :01:23. | |
And Paddy Ashdown's the latest politician to get into hot | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
water after comparing his opponents with the Nazis. | :01:29. | :01:30. | |
Just why has it become such a common feature in political debate? | :01:31. | :01:39. | |
And I'm joined today by the Green Party MP, Caroline Lucas. | :01:40. | :01:47. | |
She's just been elected joint leader of her party in the first ever | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
British political job share, alongside her co-leader | :01:52. | :01:52. | |
And as they're sharing the job, we'll be letting them | :01:53. | :02:01. | |
too, so he'll be along for the second half | :02:02. | :02:04. | |
Let's start by talking about a protest that's been causing | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
Protestors from a group called Black Lives Matter chained | :02:09. | :02:17. | |
themselves together on the the runway early this | :02:18. | :02:19. | |
morning, forcing flights in and out of the airport, | :02:20. | :02:21. | |
which is used by many business travellers, to be | :02:22. | :02:23. | |
Black Lives Matter, which was originally formed | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
in the US in response to police shootings of black people, | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
was launched in the UK earlier this year and has previously | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
blocked traffic to Heathrow and Birmingham airports. | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
The group claimed today's protest was to highlight what they said | :02:39. | :02:40. | |
was the "UK's environmental impact on the lives of black people". | :02:41. | :02:43. | |
The Metropolitan Police said that all nine of the protestors have | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
Caroline Lucas, in their sort of information about the group, they | :02:47. | :02:59. | |
say, "We believe the time is now for a Black Lives Matter movement in the | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
UK to shut down a nationwide crisis of racism and to fight for all black | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
lives? Do you think there is a nationwide crisis of racism in the | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
UK? I do. I think the figures would enforce that. The point they have | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
taken today is top point out that environmental effects affect people | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
the most. Air pollution are more likely to be affecting people of | :03:25. | :03:27. | |
colour, black people more am in the case of City Airport w he know that | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
the surrounding area, Newham is disproportion abilitily populated by | :03:33. | :03:35. | |
people of colour, it is a poorer area and they are 28% more likely to | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
be exposed to air pollution. There is links between environmental | :03:41. | :03:42. | |
problems and people of colour and Poff Tyne it is one that has to be | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
made. Is there evidence to show that? I live under the flight path | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
of Heathrow, for example, and there is a pretty mixed community all | :03:51. | :03:53. | |
along through Hounslow and into London. Are there figures to | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
substantiated what you say that black and ethnic minority | :03:59. | :04:00. | |
communities suffer more from air pollution? I think because they tend | :04:01. | :04:06. | |
to be living in more urban areas. So there are no figures and everyone | :04:07. | :04:09. | |
suffers from air pollution. Everybody certainly does and it is a | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
good way of making the point. But I think there is a particular issue, | :04:14. | :04:15. | |
for example, around City Airport where, as I say, black people in | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
that area are 28% more likely to be suffering from air pollution and | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
mother likely to be living in poverty and more likely to be unable | :04:24. | :04:30. | |
to move away, run away from areas of high pollution. But there will be | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
other people using the airport and by blocking the airport is that the | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
most effective way to highlight racism? No it is not the first way | :04:40. | :04:46. | |
to do it and it is not the only method Black Lives Matter are doing. | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
There have been the usual issues, writing letters to parliamentarians, | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
lobbying. But there is a report today about the air pollution and we | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
have had one, about the links to neurological diseases and when it | :05:00. | :05:02. | |
comes to climate change we know this country is behind in taking the | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
comences rate action we need to see which will be disrupting people | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
lives more than the disruption of this airport has. If we look at the | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
pictures we have of the protest. This is the picture we can see, we | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
are not see all nine of them. They are all white which is interesting | :05:20. | :05:26. | |
when you say this is a were test to highlight racism and Black Lives | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
Matter. I have looked a the their website and on that there is far | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
more people from Black and ethnic minority backgrounds talking. I | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
wasn't part of the demonstration. It is interesting, there are not more | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
black people there that we can see, that was the runway where the | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
picture was taken. Is air pollution the biggest problem facing that | :05:51. | :05:53. | |
community? Air pollution in London is at critical levels. Sure but, is | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
it specific, is it really about racism? Well, I feel awkward as a | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
white person here, judging whether or not black people believe that air | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
pollution is a racist issue, I can understand why they say, that I | :06:08. | :06:10. | |
don't think Black Lives Matter is only working on the environment. | :06:11. | :06:13. | |
They work on a range of eye us but to the extent they are raising an | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
issue I think needs to be higher on the political agenda, in other | :06:19. | :06:20. | |
words, the links between environmentalp problems and exposure | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
of black people, I think it is a legitimate thing to do. | :06:24. | :06:25. | |
And today we want to know which celebrities are backing | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
Jeremy Corbyn in his bid to be re-elected as Labour leader | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
At the end of the show Caroline's co-leader will give us the Green | :06:33. | :06:43. | |
The Home Affairs Select Committee will meet this afternoon to discuss | :06:44. | :06:54. | |
the future of its Chairman, Keith Vaz, after the Sunday Mirror | :06:55. | :06:57. | |
published claims he had paid for the services | :06:58. | :06:58. | |
At the weekend, the newspaper printed pictures it said showed | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
Mr Vaz with the men in a flat he owns in north London. | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
It also claimed that money was paid into an account used by one | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
of the prostitutes by a man linked to a charity set up by the MP. | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
The newspaper also said there was a discussion about using | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
the party drug, poppers - a substance which Keith Vaz helped | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
persuade the Government not to criminalise as part of its ban | :07:25. | :07:27. | |
Mr Vaz released a statement on Sunday afternoon criticising | :07:28. | :07:36. | |
the paper for paying the individuals involved and saying he had referred | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
The conservative MP for North West Leicestershire, | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
Andrew Bridgen, said Mr Vaz should consider his position as an MP | :07:45. | :07:47. | |
and that there "should be a full police investigation | :07:48. | :07:49. | |
and a Parliamentary standards inquiry" into the allegations. | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
Keith Vaz was carrying on with business as usual | :07:55. | :07:57. | |
in the Commons yesterday, where he was putting | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
The Home Affairs Select Committee is expected to urge Mr Vaz to stand | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
They will give him 24 hours "to reflect on his position" | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
before he faces a possible no confidence vote. | :08:12. | :08:18. | |
Well, to talk about this further, we're joined now from Leicester | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
by Conservative councillor, Ross Grant. | :08:22. | :08:23. | |
Welcome to the daily mrivenlingts you have heard there that Keith Vaz | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
is going to be urged to stand down from the committee. - Daily | :08:29. | :08:31. | |
Politics. That may well happen. Will that be enough in your mind? . | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
Unfortunately I don't think so, Jo. I think that, you know, there is an | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
important principle here about lawmakers not being law breakers and | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
I think there is enough in these allegations and where they seem to | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
be going, that this could go a lot further. I think Keith should really | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
be immediately resigning from that committee but should actually be | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
considering his position as an MP and probably, if he thought it | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
through, to actually stand down as an MP. Right. But as you have said, | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
these are allegations. Nothing has been proven as such and no laws have | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
yet been broken. These are allegations that have been made in a | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
paper and Keith Vaz is going to consider what he will do. Isn't this | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
essentially a private matter? Well, I don't think so. I mean I'm | :09:24. | :09:30. | |
surprised if, as part of a business transaction, paying for somebody | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
else to have illegal drugs, isn't illegal. That is something I think | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
that the police should actually be looking at. I think there is a | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
number of things here which could well be, you know, on the illegal | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
side. But as you say "they could well be" but as it stands at the | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
moment these will be no doubt looked at. But as it stands at the moment, | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
it is a private matter, something that Keith Vaz has done in his | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
private life T may be wrong morally in people's minds and in your mind | :10:03. | :10:05. | |
but you think as a result of that, he should not only stand downing | :10:06. | :10:08. | |
from the Home Affairs Select Committee but he should also stand | :10:09. | :10:14. | |
down as an MP? Well, I do. But I think that, you know, is it a | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
private matter when you have actually got a law maker who's | :10:19. | :10:26. | |
influenced our laws and is acting on approximate behalf of his | :10:27. | :10:28. | |
constituency in all of this, but isn't transparent about it. -- | :10:29. | :10:31. | |
acting on behalf of his constituency. And I think you are | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
talking that there probably will be police investigations into some of | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
this and the details that we know shift daily. Keith needs to consider | :10:41. | :10:43. | |
where does he think this could eventually end up and it actually | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
would he be doing the public and Parliament a service by actually - | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
and his family - by standing down now. Well bear with us, Ross Grant. | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
What do you say on that point that Ross has made, that is important, he | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
is a law maker here and he has been at the head of a committee has | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
looked into the issues of prostitution and has looked into the | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
issue of whether poppers, the party drug should be criminalised. He on | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
that issue he should stand aside. There is no evidence he is a law | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
breaker. 'S law maker. There is a conflict of interest. It would be a | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
greater problem if there had been hypocrisy. That would be far greater | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
reason to stand down. If on the one hand he was advocating something | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
publicly and privately was taking a different course of action. Should | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
he stand down from the Home Affairs committee, there might be something | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
on standing aside on the inquiry into prostitution, not least the | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
controversy surrounding him is a massive distraction. If it were me I | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
would want to do that but we have to ask ourselves to what extent is this | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
whole issue in the public interest. I haven't been persuaded, until I | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
can be shown that there is ill legality and gross hypocrisy that it | :12:02. | :12:04. | |
is not public interest. Even though Keith Vaz and his lawyers have put | :12:05. | :12:10. | |
out a statement to say that they think it is about a sting, and you | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
do, you agree with him totally on that. I don't see yet it is in the | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
public interest because no I will legality has been shown to be the | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
case and no gross hypocrisy. - no ill legality. What do you say about | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
this, it was entrapment. Deliberately set up to entrap Keith | :12:28. | :12:34. | |
Vaz and his private life and things he does in his life life that people | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
may not like but it is a matter for him. It might have been set up to do | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
that but it is going into things that Keith does which are of public | :12:45. | :12:47. | |
interest. I'm really surprised that Caroline Lucas doesn't think it is | :12:48. | :12:50. | |
hypocrisy when Keith has stood up in Parliament and made speeches where | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
he has implied that he has no nobbling or no kind of knowledge | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
about how poppers work and he is -- no knowledging about how poppers | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
work and he is surprised another MP talked about that. And what is | :13:03. | :13:05. | |
coming out is that's well aware of poppers and he has not been | :13:06. | :13:08. | |
transparent with Parliament or the public about that. And that is | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
hypocrisy. So there is a public interest in, I think, how this story | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
has come about. Except, he has been an MP for 27 years, not without | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
controversy, it is true, but his constituents have clearly felt he | :13:23. | :13:25. | |
has done a good job, because they keep reelecting him. Should one | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
mistake, if that's what we can agree to call t actually end his political | :13:30. | :13:38. | |
career? -- to call it I'm sure if you ask Caroline she would tell you | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
she would think Keith has been re-elected many times because of our | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
parmentdry voting system and certainly Keith does well -- | :13:46. | :13:48. | |
parliamentary voting system. Keith does well but is no different to | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
other MPs that are re-elected in various seats. I don't think it is | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
just down to Keith's popularity. But, on this one, his constituents | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
weren't aware of the position he was going to hold on these things or | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
perhaps the details about it. And, you know, I think he needs to | :14:07. | :14:09. | |
reconsider. OK, thank you. Now, yesterday the Secretary | :14:10. | :14:16. | |
of State for Exiting that's one David Davis, | :14:17. | :14:18. | |
took to the Commons for the first time to tell MPs | :14:19. | :14:21. | |
about the Government's He said it was something | :14:22. | :14:23. | |
he was determined to deliver as soon as possible, | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
but many Remain supporting MPs accused him of giving | :14:28. | :14:29. | |
next to no detail. Our instructions from the British | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
people are clear - Britain There'll be no attempt to stay | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
in the EU by the back door. No attempt to delay, | :14:39. | :14:45. | |
frustrate or thwart the will No attempt to engineer a second | :14:46. | :14:48. | |
referendum because some people didn't | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
like the first answer. Now, naturally, people | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
will want to know what Brexit Simply, it means leaving | :14:59. | :15:00. | |
the European Union. The spin before today's statement | :15:01. | :15:10. | |
with so much promise. We heard we were going to hear | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
what the Government's But what we've heard, instead, | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
hasn't been a strategy, hasn't It's just been more | :15:21. | :15:26. | |
empty platitudes. Can I ask him, when he gets | :15:27. | :15:32. | |
to the Despatch Box, to confirm to us that in leaving | :15:33. | :15:34. | |
the European Union, the number one thing | :15:35. | :15:37. | |
that is absolutely not negotiable, is that this United Kingdom | :15:38. | :15:40. | |
will take control of its control of its borders and the laws relevant | :15:41. | :15:47. | |
to that and that's not No-one expects him to have worked | :15:48. | :15:50. | |
out all of the answers yet but we do expect him to be able to set out | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
the outline of some kind of plan. And today we have | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
heard nothing on that. Ah, yes, a most exotic delicacy | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
in the House, Mr Michael Gove. We have seen a record increase | :16:07. | :16:13. | |
in service industries growth. A record increase in | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
manufacturing industry growth. A 3.3% increase in motor car sales | :16:18. | :16:20. | |
and we have also seen - we have also seen the Speaker | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
of the US Congress, the Prime Minister of Australia | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
and the Prime Minister of New Zealand, all pressing | :16:31. | :16:32. | |
for free trade deal was this country, while the deputy | :16:33. | :16:35. | |
Chancellor of Germany has acknowledged that the EU-US trade | :16:36. | :16:37. | |
deal is dead in the water. We're joined now by Peter Lilley, | :16:38. | :16:51. | |
who spoke in yesterday's Commons debate, and of course Caroline Lucas | :16:52. | :16:54. | |
is still with us. Welcome. He didn't say anything at | :16:55. | :17:04. | |
all, we're number wise after that debate. At the beginning of the | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
process you cannot outline how it will develop. This call for some | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
plan is a bit like people saying to George Washington, what is your plan | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
for independence? He would have replied, to be independent. What is | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
the constitution going to be? We will have a constitutional | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
conference. What would Gandhi's answer have been? The plan to Brexit | :17:27. | :17:32. | |
is that we take control of our laws, money and borders. But nobody knows | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
how. We do, by an act of Parliament. But nobody knows exactly how it is | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
going to happen, even David Davis himself said he is going to have | :17:43. | :17:44. | |
some sort of nationwide consultation. And what? He will | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
consult industry, business and environmental sectors, and so on, | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
and what their priorities will be in there are elements that require | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
negotiation. I was disappointed slightly that he didn't make a | :17:59. | :18:01. | |
distinction between issues which are matters for decision by the British | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
government and issues which are a matter for negotiation between | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
ourselves and the EU 27. Which issues are up for negotiation in | :18:11. | :18:13. | |
your mind with the EU member states? Once we've left, or in preparation | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
to leave, we want to discuss what the trading relationship will be | :18:20. | :18:21. | |
between Britain and the EU subsequently. He hasn't got a plan | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
for that yet. There are only two conceivable options. One, we trade | :18:27. | :18:35. | |
on the basis of the three trading partners. The alternative is that we | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
continue without tariffs. If they want to go to WTO tariffs, that is | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
fine by us, but it'll be bad for them. But we knew that. We've known | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
that for several months. No work has been done, has it, in terms of | :18:51. | :18:53. | |
developing either of those two scenarios? They are both simple. Why | :18:54. | :18:59. | |
haven't they decided which one they are going for? It is not for us, it | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
is what the US decides. And no presentation has been made yet? The | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
process hasn't started yet. It feels as if no work has been done over the | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
summer. It feels we are no further forward in the minds of many of your | :19:14. | :19:16. | |
colleagues as to where we are going to go with this exiting from the EU. | :19:17. | :19:22. | |
And people are impatient. And business will feel uncertainty will | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
grow. It is not at the moment, clearly the figures are there and | :19:27. | :19:28. | |
there's been some sort of economic bounce, but uncertainty will grow to | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
stop that was my worry. We don't want this process to go on longer | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
than necessary. -- will grow. There is a two year period. Why not one | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
year, three years, whatever, no explanation. As a danger we | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
automatically think it has to take two years. My ask is that we had an | :19:48. | :19:54. | |
assurance that we would go for the minimum with appropriate | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
preparation. Do you agree, that it should be quicker, sooner rather | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
than later? Should we be invoking article 50 as soon as possible? I | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
don't. And we haven't been given any serious indication the government | :20:09. | :20:11. | |
knows where it is going with Brexit. I believe Parliament really was | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
quite shocked that after two hours, genuinely people were no more wise | :20:17. | :20:19. | |
after that two our presentation than they were before it. You would have | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
thought that in less time David Davis and his colleagues would have | :20:25. | :20:27. | |
come up with some kind of set of options. I don't think Peter is | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
quite right. It is the case that you can have WTO or nothing. You have | :20:32. | :20:38. | |
the possibility of a Norway type arrangement where you can still have | :20:39. | :20:41. | |
access to the single market. He ruled that out. That was a progress. | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
Theresa May says that won't happen because there won't be freedom of | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
movement. No points-based system, we have clarity on that, and that is | :20:50. | :20:58. | |
what Theresa May said. She wanted a numerical total, as well. You may | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
have points within that to decide within that total number who you are | :21:03. | :21:05. | |
going to take. But she didn't want to have the Australian points-based | :21:06. | :21:08. | |
system alone to control freedom of movement. We know that some things | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
are going to happen now. And some things have been ruled out in terms | :21:14. | :21:16. | |
of Brexit. So there has been some progress. I don't know that there | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
really has. She says she wants to consult with the country. We know | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
when people were voting Brexit they were not necessarily saying which | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
are the options we wanted, what Brexit would look like. That is why | :21:31. | :21:33. | |
we need some time. Not to do it as fast as Peter would like. So you | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
have more time for consultation, more time to bring the country back | :21:38. | :21:40. | |
together in some ways. This has been one of the most divisive elements | :21:41. | :21:43. | |
that has happened in our country for decades. It seems to me that we | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
should be using that time to see how much of a compromise we can get that | :21:49. | :21:51. | |
will meet the different desires of the people who voted Remain, the | :21:52. | :21:54. | |
people who voted to leave, to see how much of a deal going forward we | :21:55. | :22:00. | |
could have. Which, for example, means we would keep the environment | :22:01. | :22:03. | |
protection we need, which would keep workers' rights and human rights. | :22:04. | :22:06. | |
People will want to see a lot of free movement, as well. And the | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
element of Freedom of movement and keeping some of the protections | :22:11. | :22:12. | |
Caroline Lucas is talking about, that is what will happen over time. | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
There will be a compromise. I agree with Caroline, that we should try to | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
adopt all existing EU laws and regulations into British law. That | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
is what countries do when they become independent. When India | :22:27. | :22:29. | |
became independent it adopted Imperial more to its own law. | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
Likewise when Slovak Republic separated, they retained their | :22:34. | :22:41. | |
existing laws. An awful lot of it is quite sensible. But it will take | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
time. It cannot be done quickly. It can be done very quickly. How Wenger | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
has not been much work done beforehand because they couldn't be? | :22:52. | :22:57. | |
-- how when there has. They have drafted in people from other | :22:58. | :23:00. | |
departments in the civil service. They are playing catch up. Now you | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
are acknowledging there was a lot of work to do. They've probably been | :23:06. | :23:08. | |
doing it in the summer. The most interesting question was actually | :23:09. | :23:17. | |
the answer am sorry -- the answer, sorry, that we do do what other | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
countries have done when going independent. He said there may be | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
some difficulties and the civil service are working on it. I would | :23:27. | :23:29. | |
like to know what those difficulties are. I understand that senior expert | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
in constitutional law have disgusted with cabinet officials and they | :23:35. | :23:36. | |
thought it was perfectly possible. If there are bits which will be more | :23:37. | :23:42. | |
complicated, let's know about it in due course, but that is the sort of | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
lines we will be working on. We will adopt the existing... He did say... | :23:47. | :23:54. | |
Thousands of lines... There were in India. You adopt what you've already | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
got. But it is the adoption which is difficult, it is deciding which | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
one... You do not dump any on day one. Not on day one, but you said, | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
then you have to decide... Their subsequently you do. But how long | :24:09. | :24:14. | |
would that take... We had a review under Margaret Thatcher in the 80s. | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
-- but subsequently you do. That is a different matter. That will be | :24:19. | :24:21. | |
done as a sovereign independent parliament making its own decision. | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
I see. Villa the misunderstanding which has been perpetrated by the | :24:26. | :24:33. | |
BBC, is that you cannot go through it until you've gone to every bit of | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
legislation. You don't do that. You adopt the process and change it when | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
you need to. Then the ask something different. You said a rerun of the | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
referendum would be an affront to democracy. So why are you calling | :24:47. | :24:49. | |
for a second referendum on the terms of the deal? What I said would be an | :24:50. | :24:55. | |
affront to democracy would be to do what the petition yesterday said, | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
which would be to rerun, the 23rd of June, the same referendum but higher | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
rules, have a -- but different roles, higher threshold, for | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
example. That would be undemocratic. But what would be democratic would | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
be to show people what things would look like after Brexit. Give people | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
back control over what Brexit would look like. So after 18 months, or | :25:17. | :25:19. | |
whatever this new package is going to look like I think that should | :25:20. | :25:22. | |
come back to the country for people to have a say. Is that what you | :25:23. | :25:28. | |
want. I'm not trying to rerun the 23rd of June. But you are calling | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
for a second referendum. On the substance. And if that didn't pass | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
we would have a different kind of Brexit, a different relationship | :25:37. | :25:40. | |
with the EU, a closer one. Would that be fair? Allen it would be | :25:41. | :25:47. | |
unnecessary -- it would be deeply insulting to the electorate and it | :25:48. | :25:50. | |
would be unnecessary. Why would it be unnecessary and insulting? We | :25:51. | :25:56. | |
told them what it would be. You can do it in different ways. Once you | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
have control you can use it in a different way as an independent | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
country. The shape of a Brexit deal could be different under different | :26:06. | :26:08. | |
interpretations. The taking back control is... How are the | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
environment or section is going to be? What about workers' rights? | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
There will not be any. Can you tell me what the British government would | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
do next year if we stay in. You would have a referendum every year | :26:22. | :26:23. | |
because you don't know what the future holds. We will come back to | :26:24. | :26:26. | |
this issue time and time again. Thank you very. | :26:27. | :26:28. | |
Now the leadership of the Green Party - | :26:29. | :26:30. | |
and I've got 50% of it here in the studio - | :26:31. | :26:32. | |
has got a plan to try to reverse a situation which saw it win just | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
one Commons' seat for more than 1 million votes | :26:37. | :26:38. | |
It's been urging other parties on the left of politics to join | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
a so-called "progressive alliance", including electoral pacts in some | :26:43. | :26:44. | |
areas, to help defeat Conservative candidates. | :26:45. | :26:45. | |
Let's have a listen to Caroline's other half, | :26:46. | :26:47. | |
politically speaking, Jonathan Bartley. | :26:48. | :26:50. | |
A progressive alliance can mean different things | :26:51. | :26:53. | |
in different constituencies, but it will not be top-down. | :26:54. | :26:55. | |
And our message to others who share a belief in a progressive, | :26:56. | :27:04. | |
modern Britain is this, old tribal loyalties are dying. | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
Voters can no longer be taken for granted. | :27:08. | :27:09. | |
The era of two party politics is over. | :27:10. | :27:21. | |
And we're joined now by the Labour MP, Peter Kyle, | :27:22. | :27:24. | |
a neighbouring MP to Caroline Lucas in Brighton and Hove. | :27:25. | :27:32. | |
Welcome to the programme. Caroline Lucas, how would an electoral pact | :27:33. | :27:38. | |
work? I think it would be up to local people in local constituencies | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
to make that decision. We are talking about a one off arrangement | :27:43. | :27:45. | |
in a number of marginal seats whereby at the minute you might have | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
Peter and myself fighting it out and a Tory comes through the middle. In | :27:51. | :27:53. | |
Brighton and Hove this thing happens again and again. What we want to try | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
to do is to get enough MPs who would have electoral reform as a number | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
one issue in their manifesto. So the next election you could admit of | :28:04. | :28:12. | |
this archaic system -- you could get rid of this archaic system. For | :28:13. | :28:19. | |
marginal seats what is not to like? Every time I hear and speak to | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
Caroline about this I can see the logic and the understanding of why | :28:25. | :28:27. | |
this is an issue which a lot of people care about. But when I go | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
away and think of it through the eyes of the electorate I cannot see | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
how it would work through their eyes. I think what we are as a of | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
establishment Labour Party, Green party, and other party officials, | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
stitching up the election. I think from their side, through their eyes, | :28:45. | :28:47. | |
they wouldn't understand why they are doing it. But otherwise you like | :28:48. | :28:53. | |
it? What I like is the idea that parties come together and work when | :28:54. | :28:56. | |
it is in our public and common interest between our two parties. | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
Like we did during the European referendum. What I don't like is an | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
electoral stitch up. I agree a stitch up, something that looks like | :29:06. | :29:08. | |
it is top-down imposed wouldn't work and wouldn't be right. But in | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
Brighton and Hove there is a Compass Group, another group called Sussex | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
Progressives, who are local people coming together and saying, hang on, | :29:19. | :29:21. | |
politicians, could you work it out in such a way that you don't have | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
politicians who share more in common than they have apart, fighting it | :29:26. | :29:28. | |
out between them, having observed its coming through again. Could you | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
not be wiser. Would you stand out from your seat in order to allow the | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
Labour candidate to win? If it was part of an overall deal I would do | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
what is best in the Green party's interest. It has to be the case that | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
ultimately one would have to be prepared to consider that. But the | :29:46. | :29:48. | |
bottom one has to be that there is a fair outcomes are the Greens would | :29:49. | :29:51. | |
get more seats than the one they have at the minute. Two issues I | :29:52. | :29:57. | |
have. First, the voters, and even our own supporters, don't and they | :29:58. | :30:00. | |
shouldn't do what we tell them to do. If you think there are 3000 | :30:01. | :30:06. | |
Green votes in Hove, I have a majority of 1236, so it would be | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
great for me to have those, but when you look at my voting record their | :30:11. | :30:14. | |
Ross and red lines that your voters wouldn't cross. Example, my vote on | :30:15. | :30:25. | |
Trident. -- there are redlines. I think a lot of them would feel | :30:26. | :30:28. | |
disenfranchised. That is what worries me about this idea. Except | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
there are disagreements within Labour on Trident, of course, as we | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
know. There are disagreements within parties. If it meant Labour would | :30:37. | :30:39. | |
win more seats surely from a mercenary point of view that would | :30:40. | :30:40. | |
be better. Brighton is a great example. In the | :30:41. | :30:48. | |
last election, there were locals elections on the samedy as | :30:49. | :30:50. | |
parliamentary. The Greens were running the council. The number one | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
reason for voting intention, according to a BBC poll and own door | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
stepping was - who is going to get rid of the Green Party? We thought | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
of xaps, they were in third place and for the local council elections | :31:05. | :31:07. | |
that we would be more compo at the time than the Greens locally. If we | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
had said - don't vote for the Greens but vote for us locally but on the | :31:12. | :31:16. | |
same day we were in a pact... You are trying to find all sorts of | :31:17. | :31:19. | |
obstacles. He doesn't want to do it. I think voters would see it as an | :31:20. | :31:22. | |
establishment stitch-up. I have already said that this is actually a | :31:23. | :31:25. | |
demand coming up from the grassroots. Particularly in a place | :31:26. | :31:29. | |
like Brighton and Hove. I have also said the big thing, the red line | :31:30. | :31:32. | |
would be... Proporgssal representation. We want a system | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
where there are fairer votes. It is not a system. Would you say yes to | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
proportional representation. No. Therein lies the deal in tatters. | :31:42. | :31:47. | |
But let's go further. Fortunately he doesn't speak for the whole of the | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
Labour Party I speak for a party which has 230 MPs. Not a party that | :31:52. | :31:57. | |
has more leaders than MPs. That's the difficulty of the alliance. That | :31:58. | :32:04. | |
was a bit of a punch there. He is usually very courteous. The reality | :32:05. | :32:08. | |
is surely to give people a voice. If you have an electoral system that | :32:09. | :32:11. | |
means in so many seats there are safe seats, and it is not why people | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
are voting because they can't get rid of them We need reform. I don't | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
think PR answers all of the questions we need. Particularly with | :32:20. | :32:21. | |
the strength of the political culture we have, with the | :32:22. | :32:23. | |
establishment between constituency and MP. There is no reason to lose | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
that. I need to ask Caroline something else. You were the one of | :32:29. | :32:32. | |
them who said he doesn't speak for the whole of the #4r5i7. I'm not the | :32:33. | :32:37. | |
leader. Jeremy Corbyn does. What conversations have you had about | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
Jeremy Corbyn's office about this Before the summer, Natalie Bennett | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
and myself wrote to Jeremy Corbyn to Leanne Woods and Tim far yob. We had | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
had various responses back, more or less warm but saying there needs to | :32:51. | :32:53. | |
be more debate from within the different parties. From Jeremy's | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
office we had a message saying they are interested and what happened in | :32:58. | :33:00. | |
the middle was a big leadership election and we have not heard back | :33:01. | :33:03. | |
but we know there are plenty of people within Labour who are | :33:04. | :33:06. | |
interested in this idea because they recognise our electoral system right | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
now is consigning us, a grossive politicians, to silence. This | :33:11. | :33:13. | |
includes Jeremy Corbyn. You think he is warm to the idea? He has no told | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
me he is warm to the idea but the people around him suggest he is. | :33:19. | :33:22. | |
Would they like to meet once the leadership contest... Depending, of | :33:23. | :33:24. | |
course on the result. They have told me they would like to meet but what | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
I am saying is that surely Labour is not - you must see that you are not | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
going to win the next general election, whoever your next leader | :33:34. | :33:36. | |
is. Look at Scotland and constituency boundary changes. You | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
owe it to people who vote Labour to try to win. History tells us... Look | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
at the pollsment That's the difference between the two of using. | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
Agreement is not going so well so far. Thank you for your time. | :33:51. | :33:58. | |
Now job-sharing is becoming more common in some British industries. | :33:59. | :34:00. | |
For instance, Andrew and I share presenting duties - | :34:01. | :34:03. | |
although I always insist that he does the weekends. | :34:04. | :34:05. | |
But will it work at the top of a political party? | :34:06. | :34:07. | |
It's been a long climb out of the political | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
wilderness for the Green party and old habits die hard. | :34:12. | :34:13. | |
Ah, the good old days when tree sit ins and beards were in vogue | :34:14. | :34:16. | |
as the Green party's popularity rose in the late 80s. | :34:17. | :34:19. | |
Over 2 million people voted Green in the 1989 European elections | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
after this Crayola inspired campaign broadcast. | :34:25. | :34:27. | |
Is this the picture you want for your children? | :34:28. | :34:34. | |
Fuelling calls for the party to have a leader. | :34:35. | :34:36. | |
Past moves to streamline the party have led invariably to the call | :34:37. | :34:39. | |
Each year the motion reappears, rejected roundly by the members | :34:40. | :34:42. | |
who sees no need for a single pop up face to fill the TV screens | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
Almost 20 years later Caroline Lucas was elected as their first | :34:47. | :34:53. | |
traditional party leader, and her breakthrough moment | :34:54. | :34:55. | |
came when she entered the Commons shortly after that. | :34:56. | :34:58. | |
Thank you so much for putting the politics of hope | :34:59. | :35:00. | |
# We shall not, we shall not be moved #. | :35:01. | :35:07. | |
Three years later she joined anti-fracking protesters and was | :35:08. | :35:09. | |
Her successor as leader, Natalie Bennett, is credited | :35:10. | :35:18. | |
with overseeing a rise in party membership. | :35:19. | :35:22. | |
If not quite remembering what her policies were. | :35:23. | :35:26. | |
How can you hope to raise 45 billion? | :35:27. | :35:29. | |
People are very welcome to have a look at the Green party | :35:30. | :35:32. | |
website and see how the figures are worked out. | :35:33. | :35:34. | |
You would make it legal for people living here to be | :35:35. | :35:37. | |
a member of Al-Qaeda, or Isis, or the IRA, you would make | :35:38. | :35:41. | |
it legal to be a member of a terrorist organisation? | :35:42. | :35:43. | |
She complained of brain fade in interviews. | :35:44. | :35:50. | |
We stand here more united with two leaders than other | :35:51. | :35:58. | |
Co-leader Jonathan Bartley was once a researcher | :35:59. | :36:06. | |
for the Conservative Party before coming to prominence publicly | :36:07. | :36:09. | |
challenging David Cameron about his policies on inclusive | :36:10. | :36:11. | |
education with his disabled son by his side. | :36:12. | :36:14. | |
You are not representing the needs of children. | :36:15. | :36:21. | |
Most recently he was the Green party's spokesman | :36:22. | :36:23. | |
Be careful, no, be very careful, you say... | :36:24. | :36:26. | |
So, what pitfalls could Britain's first political party | :36:27. | :36:28. | |
I asked the Guardian's part-time political editor. | :36:29. | :36:31. | |
No one can get a slip of paper between you. | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
If somebody comes talking to me, trying to lobby me, well, | :36:37. | :36:38. | |
Heather knows exactly what they've been saying | :36:39. | :36:40. | |
You're not just leader of the Green Party Monday to Friday, | :36:41. | :36:53. | |
nine to five, you are leader of the Green Party all the time. | :36:54. | :36:56. | |
You know, the world of news doesn't stop, the world | :36:57. | :36:58. | |
In theory, one person can't be there 24 hours a day, | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
seven days a week, so, actually, I think it's | :37:03. | :37:04. | |
going to become much more sensible to have job shares | :37:05. | :37:06. | |
Green Party members overwhelmingly back this job share | :37:07. | :37:09. | |
Now the two leaders could well determine whether this first | :37:10. | :37:13. | |
And we're joined now by the other half of the new Green Party | :37:14. | :37:21. | |
leadership, Jonathan Bartley, so congratulations to you both. | :37:22. | :37:24. | |
Thank you very much. Why a job share? Well, I approached Caroline | :37:25. | :37:31. | |
about it because of my personal circumstances. I have a passion for | :37:32. | :37:33. | |
politics, a long-standing interest in it but my son is disabled, I have | :37:34. | :37:39. | |
responsibilities for him to look after him and care for him but I | :37:40. | :37:41. | |
think that brings something important to politics. We need | :37:42. | :37:44. | |
people with experience, like those, so they can be authentic in their | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
politics but a lot of people are, you know, cut out of the system | :37:49. | :37:51. | |
because they don't have the time to do it because they have those | :37:52. | :37:53. | |
responsibilities, they have caring responsibilities or they are | :37:54. | :37:56. | |
disabled themselves. It is a way of demonstrating a new way of politics. | :37:57. | :37:59. | |
We would like to see this idea spread. How will it work on | :38:00. | :38:03. | |
ady-to-day basis? How will you divide all the responsibilities | :38:04. | :38:06. | |
Well, it is working very well already. We have had a long hustings | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
campaign, 12 or is he around the country, we have done a lot of | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
interviews like this and talked people we. Divide up | :38:15. | :38:17. | |
responsibilities, play to our strengths, Caroline will be in her | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
constituency a lot. The serious things, about a political point f | :38:22. | :38:28. | |
you look at Westminster in in particular, anyone casting their | :38:29. | :38:31. | |
eyes across the benches can't say it represent Britain. If we want a | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
Parliament that is more representative, a job share is | :38:36. | :38:38. | |
practical. More black people, job sharing responsibilities, more | :38:39. | :38:40. | |
people with caring responsibilities. I think we need a greater diversity. | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
Many people can't give 24-7 necessarily and therefore, anything | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
we can do to make Parliament more representative and ensure MPs have | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
one foot firmly placed back in their constituency I think will lead to | :38:54. | :38:56. | |
better politics. It is Tuesday today, we are doing a store story on | :38:57. | :39:02. | |
Mack 1. We are doing it with Caroline because she was first up, | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
who would I call? The press office. They would decide. Would they call | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
you? I can't believe you are asking this question. These are the | :39:12. | :39:14. | |
practical issues. You know that job sharing is a common thing across the | :39:15. | :39:18. | |
country and thank goodness politics are catching up Not in politics. It | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
is the same issue. How would it work. Who is going to run, or lead | :39:23. | :39:26. | |
on a particular story on your programme. You know as well as I do, | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
it is not rocket science to work that out. What is great about this | :39:31. | :39:33. | |
is when one is doing something we would have had to turn the interview | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
down because we would be elsewhere. Another one is available. The media | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
are getting two for the price of one. A supermarket deal. But You say | :39:42. | :39:47. | |
why am I asking about practical details. Noernt. If you are working | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
on a big story on fracking or a big campaign and you can't make it and | :39:52. | :39:54. | |
that's your strength, does it get hand over to Jonathan, do you have | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
to tell each other - I can't do these days this week, can you cover | :39:59. | :40:03. | |
for me? The reason I was saying, why are you asking me those those | :40:04. | :40:06. | |
questions, of course they are the conversation that is would happen | :40:07. | :40:09. | |
just as they would in any other organisation where job sharing is | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
common. The leader of a party has been a one-person role where you are | :40:14. | :40:16. | |
asking for an opinion and you are asking for... Maybe in Westminster | :40:17. | :40:20. | |
it is the case but around the world it clearly isn't. CEOs. The 20 CEOs | :40:21. | :40:26. | |
of Fortune 500 companies are sharing. In Germany and Sweden, and | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
Green Parties around the world have done this. Maybe it is because we | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
have a different vision of leadership. What is the difference | :40:35. | :40:37. | |
between the two of you? I would simply say in the Green Party, | :40:38. | :40:41. | |
leadership is more of a collegiate cooperative thing, it is not a | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
topdown, we had a view in the night we will do X and impose it and | :40:46. | :40:49. | |
therefore you need to know what is on in the brain of that person, it | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
is much more delib radiotive and discussed with our Green Party exec | :40:54. | :40:56. | |
taven maybe that's a delifrn kind of leadership which is more attractive. | :40:57. | :40:59. | |
What did you have a disagreement on a key policy area? The great thing | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
about the green Party is all our policies are decided democratically | :41:05. | :41:15. | |
by our members. We go out and... - what do you do when you have a fight | :41:16. | :41:23. | |
with Andrew. We fight it out and. But you have tried this and it was | :41:24. | :41:29. | |
abandoned, you didn't like T The problem with principal speakers, we | :41:30. | :41:32. | |
got it down to two in the end, but there were eight, ten. We spent most | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
interviews trying to explain what it was. Using the language of leaders | :41:38. | :41:40. | |
and co-leaders, at least we think it means something more to you, the | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
public and so forth and we can get on and talk about our policies, | :41:45. | :41:46. | |
rather than our structures. All right, thank you very much. We can | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
agree on all of that. Caroline we say goodbye to you, but Jonathan you | :41:51. | :41:52. | |
are staying. Scotland's First Minister, | :41:53. | :41:54. | |
Nicola Sturgeon, is outlining her legislative priorities for the next | :41:55. | :41:56. | |
five years today with education, healthcare and new welfare powers | :41:57. | :41:58. | |
said to be high on the SNP's agenda. She'll be making a statement | :41:59. | :42:01. | |
at Holyrood a little later, but let's get more from BBC | :42:02. | :42:03. | |
Scotland's Political Brian. Tell us more. What can we | :42:04. | :42:14. | |
expect? Well, first of all, much to the relief of viewsers there is only | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
one of me. I will bring you up-to-date with what the First | :42:19. | :42:21. | |
Minister is going for. I think encation and the economy, perhaps | :42:22. | :42:24. | |
joint number one. Indeed Nicola Sturegon was out this morning Ned | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
enborough opening a new school, a new high school, a new building for | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
that, stressing that on the one hand it is educational aproe. , opened it | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
is jobs to grow the economy. I think there will be an announcement of a | :42:39. | :42:41. | |
welfare system for Scotland. Not detail of the benefits but new | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
welfare powers this week have been transferred to Holyrood and they | :42:46. | :42:49. | |
need a Social Security system up and running to go with as well as a tax | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
system. The new tax powers are there. In terms of other things, | :42:55. | :42:57. | |
health reforms, perhaps trying to bring health and social care more | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
together. In that field of education, the big controversy could | :43:02. | :43:04. | |
be an attempt to channel money directly to schools, directedly to | :43:05. | :43:07. | |
headteachers and involving parents. And perhaps, to some extent cutting | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
out the local authority. It is likely to be very contentious. | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
Right, and despite how much effort will be put into the other areas, | :43:16. | :43:18. | |
particularly into education and health as you have outlined, won't | :43:19. | :43:24. | |
the focus still be on the talk of a second independence referendum? I | :43:25. | :43:28. | |
think the second independence referendum will be mentioned in the | :43:29. | :43:32. | |
First Minister's statement. I think she will confirm that there is early | :43:33. | :43:38. | |
planning under way. Planning for the necessary legislation to set out | :43:39. | :43:41. | |
that referendum, but it will be a reference, a passing reference. I | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
think, you know, that she is, is perhaps slightly sensitive about the | :43:47. | :43:49. | |
idea, the attack that comes from Opposition parties who say - Nicola | :43:50. | :43:52. | |
Sturegon, you are ignoring the day job, you are obsess being | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
independence. Now she has dismissed that accusation. She puts it to one | :43:57. | :44:01. | |
side but she knows if it is repeated endlessly, and it is being repeated | :44:02. | :44:05. | |
endlessly -- understandably from the point of view of her opponents, if | :44:06. | :44:11. | |
it is going repeated, it forms seeds in the voters' minds so #20ed she's | :44:12. | :44:14. | |
going to counter that about saying it is about the nuts and bolts of | :44:15. | :44:20. | |
deliver ri, the hard task of delivering the SNP manifesto, about | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
the economy, education, health, welfare. | :44:25. | :44:31. | |
While we were talking Keith Vaz has announced his regular igs nation | :44:32. | :44:37. | |
from the Home Affairs committee. He says it is in the best interest of | :44:38. | :44:40. | |
the Home Affairs Select Committee Thwaites important work can be | :44:41. | :44:43. | |
conducted without any distractions whatsoever. "I'm enonlinely sorry | :44:44. | :44:52. | |
recent he events make this possible while I'm Chair." Breaking news just | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
appeared in front of me. -- I'm very sorry. | :44:57. | :45:00. | |
Now yesterday the British Medical Association called off the junior | :45:01. | :45:03. | |
doctors' strike that was due to take place in England next week. | :45:04. | :45:05. | |
The BMA said it was not backing down in the dispute over | :45:06. | :45:08. | |
a new contract for junior doctors, but said it wanted to give the NHS | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
sufficient time to prepare for industrial action. | :45:13. | :45:13. | |
A series of further all-out five day stoppages are still planned | :45:14. | :45:16. | |
for later in the year, with the first due | :45:17. | :45:18. | |
Let's have a listen to the Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
This afternoon's news of them delaying the first strike is, | :45:23. | :45:34. | |
But we mustn't let it obscure the fact that the remaining planned | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
industrial action is unprecedented in length and severity. | :45:39. | :45:40. | |
Some of whom will have already had operations cancelled. | :45:41. | :45:46. | |
Many NHS organisations, including NHS England, | :45:47. | :45:48. | |
NHS providers, the NHS Confederation, and NHS improvement | :45:49. | :45:50. | |
have expressed concern about the potential impact | :45:51. | :45:52. | |
Indeed, this morning the General medical Council published its advice | :45:53. | :46:03. | |
Whilst recognising a doctor's legal right to take industrial action, | :46:04. | :46:12. | |
they urged all doctors in training to pause and consider | :46:13. | :46:14. | |
We're joined now by the Conservative MP, David Morris, who spoke | :46:15. | :46:18. | |
You are pleased I presume, the strike next week has been called | :46:19. | :46:27. | |
off. I'm very pleased. And they shouldn't be any more striking. The | :46:28. | :46:32. | |
contract has been agreed. I just didn't understand what the BMA Pope | :46:33. | :46:37. | |
to get by this. Public support for the doctors strike is waning. -- | :46:38. | :46:45. | |
hoped. It has dropped nine points and a plentiful probably continue in | :46:46. | :46:48. | |
that way, won't it? I don't know. But I know that my dad was a doctor. | :46:49. | :46:55. | |
I just spent a month in hospital with my son. Doctors do not go into | :46:56. | :46:59. | |
the industry to cause trouble, they go into it to help people and save | :47:00. | :47:04. | |
lives. I think we need to take these concerns seriously. The fact that | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
they would go so far as to strike, we need to listen to them. But they | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
are putting patients' lives at some risk. You say you have a doctor in | :47:13. | :47:15. | |
the family, and you are going to hospital with your disabled son, | :47:16. | :47:19. | |
then you are relying on those doctors being there. I'm relying on | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
a good service for years to come. We have less investment as a proportion | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
of GDP at the moment in the last six years. We've had an entire history | :47:29. | :47:31. | |
of the NHS as a proportion of the GDP. That is concerning and that | :47:32. | :47:39. | |
will cause hurt in the long run. I have heard Doctor after doctor say | :47:40. | :47:42. | |
how difficult this is for them and I believe them. I believe it is very | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
difficult for them. Has Jeremy Hunt handled this well? He has handled it | :47:47. | :47:52. | |
the best he possibly can do. What does that mean? It is politically | :47:53. | :47:56. | |
motivated. There has been a shake-up at the top of the BMA. They have a | :47:57. | :48:02. | |
deputy chairman, who I know and my local papers follow him. Are you | :48:03. | :48:06. | |
accusing junior doctors of being politically motivated? I'm accusing | :48:07. | :48:11. | |
the BMA of it. They have to have the support of junior doctors. Please | :48:12. | :48:17. | |
don't talk over each other. The junior doctors have made these | :48:18. | :48:22. | |
decisions. You are wrong. There has been no ballot on this. 4% of | :48:23. | :48:28. | |
doctors actually want this strike to go ahead. 4%. There has been no | :48:29. | :48:33. | |
ballot. There should be. There has been a shake-up at the top of the | :48:34. | :48:37. | |
BMA. Who is it who are going on strike? 4% of junior doctors? The | :48:38. | :48:44. | |
BMA are instructing their members to go on strike. 8% of junior doctors | :48:45. | :48:49. | |
rejected the deal that was agreed by the BMA. Junior doctors are still | :48:50. | :48:54. | |
not happy. Their claims, and I am paraphrasing, are back in order to | :48:55. | :48:58. | |
put and satisfy a manifesto commitment to make a seven-day | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
service they change the junior doctors' contract in order to make | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
that happen with no more money will stop they do get paid more money at | :49:07. | :49:13. | |
the weekends. -- more money. I mean resources in general. The resources | :49:14. | :49:15. | |
is not the reason why they are striking. They are striking because | :49:16. | :49:21. | |
they have agreed a contract... A contract has been imposed. It was | :49:22. | :49:25. | |
agreed, there has been a shake-up at the top, it is politically motivated | :49:26. | :49:30. | |
and that is why it is happening. Are you saying that no doctor is | :49:31. | :49:33. | |
politically motivated? I'm sure you would get the same percentage in the | :49:34. | :49:40. | |
medical industry. It has been used as... Somebody is going to have to | :49:41. | :49:43. | |
stand up for the patients. The best people placed to see what is going | :49:44. | :49:48. | |
on with the doctors are -- with the patient is the doctors. When you | :49:49. | :49:51. | |
navigate your way through the mire of problems and disputes through | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
this with the government and junior doctors, it has come on many | :49:56. | :49:59. | |
occasions, come down to this narrow demand of increasing Saturday pay. | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
Making it the same as overtime pay at times. Junior doctors are worried | :50:05. | :50:09. | |
they will have to work these additional hours. That will put | :50:10. | :50:12. | |
patient safety at risk. Doctors hours are coming down, down from 92 | :50:13. | :50:18. | |
to 70 hours. That is in the contract. When was the last time you | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
spent a considerable amount of time in hospital? I see doctors working | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
hour after hour. They look haggard, tired, they are coming in, doing | :50:27. | :50:31. | |
emergency operations, they are struggling. Why are you not | :50:32. | :50:36. | |
investing in them? We are. There is less than any time of proportional | :50:37. | :50:42. | |
GDP. There isn't. Yes there is. There are 4000 more doctors being | :50:43. | :50:46. | |
trained than in the last parliament. It is about keeping pace with | :50:47. | :50:51. | |
demand. Demand, and the fact that many people are living longer means | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
it isn't keeping pace with expectations of the voting public. | :50:56. | :50:59. | |
That is what the doctors say needs to be addressed in the long term. | :51:00. | :51:04. | |
That is what Jeremy Hunt is doing. He's placed to put money into the | :51:05. | :51:07. | |
NHS over the course of this Parliament. Simon says there isn't | :51:08. | :51:12. | |
enough. They have to find the money. You agree that have to find the | :51:13. | :51:18. | |
money? I agree that after going through a turmoil of recession and a | :51:19. | :51:21. | |
period of economic austerity we are at a position now where we have got | :51:22. | :51:26. | |
politically motivated nonsense, quite frankly, from the BMA being | :51:27. | :51:31. | |
peddled forward that I actually think it's probably transgressing | :51:32. | :51:35. | |
the various acts we put in Parliament about lobbying and the | :51:36. | :51:40. | |
effects of it. Because we have different people on the board of the | :51:41. | :51:43. | |
BMA wearing different hats. We have a chairman of the Unite as the | :51:44. | :51:50. | |
deputy of the BMA that has the history of peddling nonsense. Not | :51:51. | :51:53. | |
just in my local paper, but nationally. You have got to find the | :51:54. | :51:59. | |
money, you said. You have had your say, let me finish. We are at this | :52:00. | :52:03. | |
position where the junior doctors and the BMA have agreed the contract | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
and now they are going back on it. That cannot happen. The junior | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
doctors said they didn't accept the contract in the first place but the | :52:12. | :52:16. | |
BMA did. May I add, at the last election there was an overwhelming | :52:17. | :52:19. | |
mandate to sort this problem out and that is what Jeremy Hunt is doing. | :52:20. | :52:24. | |
Do you think a deal will be done? I hope it is a deal that satisfies the | :52:25. | :52:28. | |
doctors. We needed that the doctors in control. It was about giving back | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
control to the country, giving back control to the people who need to | :52:33. | :52:35. | |
work long hours and squeezing every bit of the NHS they can. We need a | :52:36. | :52:39. | |
decent NHS with doctors who can do the job properly. That is what we | :52:40. | :52:41. | |
need to secure. Thanks very much. Now, you may not have | :52:42. | :52:44. | |
heard of Godwin's Law, but it's an idea that was coined | :52:45. | :52:46. | |
by an American in the early days of the internet and it says that | :52:47. | :52:49. | |
if an online discussion goes on long enough, it will always end | :52:50. | :52:53. | |
with someone comparing someone But these days this doesn't seem | :52:54. | :52:55. | |
to be confined to the internet, but is becoming a regular feature | :52:56. | :53:01. | |
in political debate. Yesterday after Theresa May appeared | :53:02. | :53:03. | |
to rule out the idea of introducing an Australian-style points system, | :53:04. | :53:06. | |
the former Liberal Democrat leader Paddy Ashdown sent a tweet | :53:07. | :53:08. | |
which read 'the Tory Brexit brownshirts are stirring' - | :53:09. | :53:11. | |
the brownshirts being a name used to describe the paramilitary | :53:12. | :53:13. | |
wing of the Nazi Party. During the referendum campaign | :53:14. | :53:20. | |
Boris Johnson, not exactly a stranger to controversy, | :53:21. | :53:23. | |
said that the EU had the same aim as Hitler in trying to create | :53:24. | :53:26. | |
a political superstate. His colleague Michael Gove said | :53:27. | :53:30. | |
'we have to be careful about historical comparisons', | :53:31. | :53:33. | |
before roundly ignoring his own advice and comparing economic | :53:34. | :53:35. | |
experts supporting Remain And the former London mayor | :53:36. | :53:37. | |
Ken Livingstone was at the centre of a media scrum and was suspended | :53:38. | :53:46. | |
from the Labour Party after arguing We are joined by a journalist who is | :53:47. | :54:07. | |
nodding away. What Boris Johnson correct to compare the European | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
Union's aims to that of Nazi Germany during the referendum campaign? I | :54:13. | :54:15. | |
can see why people are tempted to make Nazi references. It is the only | :54:16. | :54:18. | |
bit of history people know these days. So it is lazy, isn't it? When | :54:19. | :54:24. | |
I was at school it was all about the Middle Ages, but now all you get | :54:25. | :54:29. | |
taught is about the rise of the Nazis. Paddy Ashdown comparing the | :54:30. | :54:40. | |
70 when five people -- comparing the 17.5 million people who voted to | :54:41. | :54:46. | |
leave, I don't think that works. There are occasions, I think, when | :54:47. | :54:50. | |
the Nazi analogy is used, particularly by the left, to slack | :54:51. | :54:53. | |
off people they don't like. Anybody mildly to the right they call Nazis. | :54:54. | :55:04. | |
There is an interesting comparison to make. We encourage our children | :55:05. | :55:14. | |
to study history to learn the lessons of the past. I do hear | :55:15. | :55:19. | |
people coming to me, and I'm careful about saying it, because it is | :55:20. | :55:24. | |
inflammatory, but I think there are parallels with the age of insecurity | :55:25. | :55:27. | |
that we are experiencing at the moment. People feel unsure. The far | :55:28. | :55:35. | |
right has in 70 in times like this. We saw it in the 1930s, we've seen | :55:36. | :55:39. | |
the referendum today, and we have seen a rise in hate crime which is | :55:40. | :55:46. | |
alarming. In many communities. In the end many people will justify how | :55:47. | :55:50. | |
they have used their Nazi analogy, but isn't it just crass and lazy? | :55:51. | :55:55. | |
No, I didn't agree with Jonathan on the detail, but on the broad issue | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
of whether we should use Nazi analogies... I think, actually, the | :56:00. | :56:02. | |
interesting thing about Nazi Germany is that it happened in a country | :56:03. | :56:07. | |
which invented Beethoven and Schubert. Civilised people. Get over | :56:08. | :56:10. | |
a period of five years they were effectively taken hostage by this | :56:11. | :56:19. | |
party which was a joke. Do you worry history may be repeating itself? I | :56:20. | :56:24. | |
do in terms of the left's war on free speech, the liberal left | :56:25. | :56:28. | |
wall... You have used the term about Green party, or some of the Green | :56:29. | :56:36. | |
party being eco-Nazis. Yes. How can that be when the Nazis were about | :56:37. | :56:40. | |
dehumanising people, destroying the Jews... The Hitler era is rich in | :56:41. | :56:47. | |
green analogies. Get the's Germany was the paradigms of green | :56:48. | :56:50. | |
analogies. Himmler wanted to feed the S S and organic food only until | :56:51. | :56:55. | |
somebody explained to him that it cannot be produced and such a scale. | :56:56. | :57:00. | |
Goering wanted to put people who abused animals into concentration | :57:01. | :57:05. | |
camps. I'm not sure whether to laugh or to say that is incredibly | :57:06. | :57:10. | |
offensive. The truth hurts. I'm passionate about opposing fascism in | :57:11. | :57:13. | |
this country. I'm probably one of the strongest opponents of Ukip. I | :57:14. | :57:19. | |
would label Ukip in that fascist bracket. I don't think it is helpful | :57:20. | :57:23. | |
to descend into the name-calling. Let's look at what people are | :57:24. | :57:26. | |
standing for, the values, the policies of Ukip and the way they | :57:27. | :57:29. | |
want to cut down on immigration. Let's look at the effect that has | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
had on the divisions in our local communities. It is something we need | :57:34. | :57:36. | |
to speak about and talk rationally about. Was Paddy Ashdown right to | :57:37. | :57:42. | |
call Tory Brexiteers brownshirts? It wasn't helpful to the debate, but I | :57:43. | :57:46. | |
see what he was trying to say. Was Michael Gove right to say that those | :57:47. | :57:49. | |
economic experts supporting Remain when Nazi propagandists -- were. He | :57:50. | :57:59. | |
was talking about the paper Hitler commissioned, the authors against | :58:00. | :58:03. | |
Einstein, a specific analogy. Thank you. | :58:04. | :58:05. | |
There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz. | :58:06. | :58:08. | |
Caroline was asked the question but I'm sure as they think as one | :58:09. | :58:11. | |
on all things Jonathan will know the answer. | :58:12. | :58:13. | |
The question was which celebrity is Jeremy Corybn appearing | :58:14. | :58:15. | |
I know Billy Bragg supports him and UB40, I think it might be UB40. | :58:16. | :58:35. | |
# Red red Wine # Goes to my head #. | :58:36. | :58:43. | |
You are right. I didn't have a chance to say thank you for all of | :58:44. | :58:44. | |
your history information today. The One O'Clock News is starting | :58:45. | :58:46. | |
over on BBC One now. I'll be back at 11:30 tomorrow | :58:47. | :58:51. | |
with Andrew for live coverage in a brand-new BBC Two quiz show, | :58:52. | :58:54. | |
Debatable, where a team of celebrities put | :58:55. | :59:08. | |
their debating skills to the test to try to win their contestants | :59:09. | :59:12. | |
pots of cash. Will they help, or will they hinder? | :59:13. | :59:15. | |
That's Debatable. The stars are out for | :59:16. | :59:23. | |
a glittering night of awards, | :59:24. | :59:27. |