06/09/2016 Daily Politics


06/09/2016

Jo Coburn is joined by Green Party co-leaders Caroline Lucas and Jonathan Bartley to discuss the possibility of a so-called progressive alliance with other left-wing parties.


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weather for eastern parts of England.

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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics and Westminster,

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where many are asking if the Labour MP, Keith Vaz,

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He's under growing pressure to consider his position as head

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of a Commons' committee after a Sunday newspaper claimed

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he paid for the services of two male prostitutes.

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He's expected to be urged by colleagues to stand down today.

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Brexit means leaving the EU, according to the new Brexit

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He gave a confident first statement to MPs, but what if anything

:01:04.:01:09.

For most of its history the Green Party refused

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We'll be talking to the power couple taking part in the first job share

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And Paddy Ashdown's the latest politician to get into hot

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water after comparing his opponents with the Nazis.

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Just why has it become such a common feature in political debate?

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And I'm joined today by the Green Party MP, Caroline Lucas.

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She's just been elected joint leader of her party in the first ever

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British political job share, alongside her co-leader

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And as they're sharing the job, we'll be letting them

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too, so he'll be along for the second half

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Let's start by talking about a protest that's been causing

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Protestors from a group called Black Lives Matter chained

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themselves together on the the runway early this

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morning, forcing flights in and out of the airport,

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which is used by many business travellers, to be

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Black Lives Matter, which was originally formed

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in the US in response to police shootings of black people,

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was launched in the UK earlier this year and has previously

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blocked traffic to Heathrow and Birmingham airports.

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The group claimed today's protest was to highlight what they said

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was the "UK's environmental impact on the lives of black people".

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The Metropolitan Police said that all nine of the protestors have

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Caroline Lucas, in their sort of information about the group, they

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say, "We believe the time is now for a Black Lives Matter movement in the

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UK to shut down a nationwide crisis of racism and to fight for all black

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lives? Do you think there is a nationwide crisis of racism in the

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UK? I do. I think the figures would enforce that. The point they have

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taken today is top point out that environmental effects affect people

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the most. Air pollution are more likely to be affecting people of

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colour, black people more am in the case of City Airport w he know that

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the surrounding area, Newham is disproportion abilitily populated by

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people of colour, it is a poorer area and they are 28% more likely to

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be exposed to air pollution. There is links between environmental

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problems and people of colour and Poff Tyne it is one that has to be

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made. Is there evidence to show that? I live under the flight path

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of Heathrow, for example, and there is a pretty mixed community all

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along through Hounslow and into London. Are there figures to

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substantiated what you say that black and ethnic minority

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communities suffer more from air pollution? I think because they tend

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to be living in more urban areas. So there are no figures and everyone

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suffers from air pollution. Everybody certainly does and it is a

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good way of making the point. But I think there is a particular issue,

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for example, around City Airport where, as I say, black people in

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that area are 28% more likely to be suffering from air pollution and

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mother likely to be living in poverty and more likely to be unable

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to move away, run away from areas of high pollution. But there will be

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other people using the airport and by blocking the airport is that the

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most effective way to highlight racism? No it is not the first way

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to do it and it is not the only method Black Lives Matter are doing.

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There have been the usual issues, writing letters to parliamentarians,

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lobbying. But there is a report today about the air pollution and we

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have had one, about the links to neurological diseases and when it

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comes to climate change we know this country is behind in taking the

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comences rate action we need to see which will be disrupting people

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lives more than the disruption of this airport has. If we look at the

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pictures we have of the protest. This is the picture we can see, we

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are not see all nine of them. They are all white which is interesting

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when you say this is a were test to highlight racism and Black Lives

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Matter. I have looked a the their website and on that there is far

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more people from Black and ethnic minority backgrounds talking. I

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wasn't part of the demonstration. It is interesting, there are not more

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black people there that we can see, that was the runway where the

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picture was taken. Is air pollution the biggest problem facing that

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community? Air pollution in London is at critical levels. Sure but, is

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it specific, is it really about racism? Well, I feel awkward as a

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white person here, judging whether or not black people believe that air

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pollution is a racist issue, I can understand why they say, that I

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don't think Black Lives Matter is only working on the environment.

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They work on a range of eye us but to the extent they are raising an

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issue I think needs to be higher on the political agenda, in other

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words, the links between environmentalp problems and exposure

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of black people, I think it is a legitimate thing to do.

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And today we want to know which celebrities are backing

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Jeremy Corbyn in his bid to be re-elected as Labour leader

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At the end of the show Caroline's co-leader will give us the Green

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The Home Affairs Select Committee will meet this afternoon to discuss

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the future of its Chairman, Keith Vaz, after the Sunday Mirror

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published claims he had paid for the services

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At the weekend, the newspaper printed pictures it said showed

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Mr Vaz with the men in a flat he owns in north London.

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It also claimed that money was paid into an account used by one

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of the prostitutes by a man linked to a charity set up by the MP.

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The newspaper also said there was a discussion about using

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the party drug, poppers - a substance which Keith Vaz helped

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persuade the Government not to criminalise as part of its ban

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Mr Vaz released a statement on Sunday afternoon criticising

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the paper for paying the individuals involved and saying he had referred

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The conservative MP for North West Leicestershire,

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Andrew Bridgen, said Mr Vaz should consider his position as an MP

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and that there "should be a full police investigation

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and a Parliamentary standards inquiry" into the allegations.

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Keith Vaz was carrying on with business as usual

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in the Commons yesterday, where he was putting

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The Home Affairs Select Committee is expected to urge Mr Vaz to stand

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They will give him 24 hours "to reflect on his position"

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before he faces a possible no confidence vote.

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Well, to talk about this further, we're joined now from Leicester

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by Conservative councillor, Ross Grant.

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Welcome to the daily mrivenlingts you have heard there that Keith Vaz

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is going to be urged to stand down from the committee. - Daily

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Politics. That may well happen. Will that be enough in your mind? .

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Unfortunately I don't think so, Jo. I think that, you know, there is an

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important principle here about lawmakers not being law breakers and

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I think there is enough in these allegations and where they seem to

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be going, that this could go a lot further. I think Keith should really

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be immediately resigning from that committee but should actually be

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considering his position as an MP and probably, if he thought it

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through, to actually stand down as an MP. Right. But as you have said,

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these are allegations. Nothing has been proven as such and no laws have

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yet been broken. These are allegations that have been made in a

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paper and Keith Vaz is going to consider what he will do. Isn't this

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essentially a private matter? Well, I don't think so. I mean I'm

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surprised if, as part of a business transaction, paying for somebody

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else to have illegal drugs, isn't illegal. That is something I think

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that the police should actually be looking at. I think there is a

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number of things here which could well be, you know, on the illegal

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side. But as you say "they could well be" but as it stands at the

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moment these will be no doubt looked at. But as it stands at the moment,

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it is a private matter, something that Keith Vaz has done in his

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private life T may be wrong morally in people's minds and in your mind

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but you think as a result of that, he should not only stand downing

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from the Home Affairs Select Committee but he should also stand

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down as an MP? Well, I do. But I think that, you know, is it a

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private matter when you have actually got a law maker who's

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influenced our laws and is acting on approximate behalf of his

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constituency in all of this, but isn't transparent about it. --

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acting on behalf of his constituency. And I think you are

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talking that there probably will be police investigations into some of

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this and the details that we know shift daily. Keith needs to consider

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where does he think this could eventually end up and it actually

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would he be doing the public and Parliament a service by actually -

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and his family - by standing down now. Well bear with us, Ross Grant.

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What do you say on that point that Ross has made, that is important, he

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is a law maker here and he has been at the head of a committee has

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looked into the issues of prostitution and has looked into the

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issue of whether poppers, the party drug should be criminalised. He on

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that issue he should stand aside. There is no evidence he is a law

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breaker. 'S law maker. There is a conflict of interest. It would be a

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greater problem if there had been hypocrisy. That would be far greater

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reason to stand down. If on the one hand he was advocating something

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publicly and privately was taking a different course of action. Should

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he stand down from the Home Affairs committee, there might be something

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on standing aside on the inquiry into prostitution, not least the

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controversy surrounding him is a massive distraction. If it were me I

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would want to do that but we have to ask ourselves to what extent is this

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whole issue in the public interest. I haven't been persuaded, until I

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can be shown that there is ill legality and gross hypocrisy that it

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is not public interest. Even though Keith Vaz and his lawyers have put

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out a statement to say that they think it is about a sting, and you

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do, you agree with him totally on that. I don't see yet it is in the

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public interest because no I will legality has been shown to be the

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case and no gross hypocrisy. - no ill legality. What do you say about

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this, it was entrapment. Deliberately set up to entrap Keith

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Vaz and his private life and things he does in his life life that people

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may not like but it is a matter for him. It might have been set up to do

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that but it is going into things that Keith does which are of public

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interest. I'm really surprised that Caroline Lucas doesn't think it is

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hypocrisy when Keith has stood up in Parliament and made speeches where

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he has implied that he has no nobbling or no kind of knowledge

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about how poppers work and he is -- no knowledging about how poppers

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work and he is surprised another MP talked about that. And what is

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coming out is that's well aware of poppers and he has not been

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transparent with Parliament or the public about that. And that is

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hypocrisy. So there is a public interest in, I think, how this story

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has come about. Except, he has been an MP for 27 years, not without

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controversy, it is true, but his constituents have clearly felt he

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has done a good job, because they keep reelecting him. Should one

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mistake, if that's what we can agree to call t actually end his political

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career? -- to call it I'm sure if you ask Caroline she would tell you

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she would think Keith has been re-elected many times because of our

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parmentdry voting system and certainly Keith does well --

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parliamentary voting system. Keith does well but is no different to

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other MPs that are re-elected in various seats. I don't think it is

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just down to Keith's popularity. But, on this one, his constituents

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weren't aware of the position he was going to hold on these things or

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perhaps the details about it. And, you know, I think he needs to

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reconsider. OK, thank you. Now, yesterday the Secretary

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of State for Exiting that's one David Davis,

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took to the Commons for the first time to tell MPs

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about the Government's He said it was something

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he was determined to deliver as soon as possible,

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but many Remain supporting MPs accused him of giving

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next to no detail. Our instructions from the British

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people are clear - Britain There'll be no attempt to stay

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in the EU by the back door. No attempt to delay,

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frustrate or thwart the will No attempt to engineer a second

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referendum because some people didn't

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like the first answer. Now, naturally, people

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will want to know what Brexit Simply, it means leaving

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the European Union. The spin before today's statement

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with so much promise. We heard we were going to hear

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what the Government's But what we've heard, instead,

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hasn't been a strategy, hasn't It's just been more

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empty platitudes. Can I ask him, when he gets

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to the Despatch Box, to confirm to us that in leaving

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the European Union, the number one thing

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that is absolutely not negotiable, is that this United Kingdom

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will take control of its control of its borders and the laws relevant

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to that and that's not No-one expects him to have worked

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out all of the answers yet but we do expect him to be able to set out

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the outline of some kind of plan. And today we have

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heard nothing on that. Ah, yes, a most exotic delicacy

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in the House, Mr Michael Gove. We have seen a record increase

:16:07.:16:13.

in service industries growth. A record increase in

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manufacturing industry growth. A 3.3% increase in motor car sales

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and we have also seen - we have also seen the Speaker

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of the US Congress, the Prime Minister of Australia

:16:26.:16:30.

and the Prime Minister of New Zealand, all pressing

:16:31.:16:32.

for free trade deal was this country, while the deputy

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Chancellor of Germany has acknowledged that the EU-US trade

:16:36.:16:37.

deal is dead in the water. We're joined now by Peter Lilley,

:16:38.:16:51.

who spoke in yesterday's Commons debate, and of course Caroline Lucas

:16:52.:16:54.

is still with us. Welcome. He didn't say anything at

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all, we're number wise after that debate. At the beginning of the

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process you cannot outline how it will develop. This call for some

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plan is a bit like people saying to George Washington, what is your plan

:17:13.:17:16.

for independence? He would have replied, to be independent. What is

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the constitution going to be? We will have a constitutional

:17:21.:17:26.

conference. What would Gandhi's answer have been? The plan to Brexit

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is that we take control of our laws, money and borders. But nobody knows

:17:33.:17:38.

how. We do, by an act of Parliament. But nobody knows exactly how it is

:17:39.:17:42.

going to happen, even David Davis himself said he is going to have

:17:43.:17:44.

some sort of nationwide consultation. And what? He will

:17:45.:17:50.

consult industry, business and environmental sectors, and so on,

:17:51.:17:54.

and what their priorities will be in there are elements that require

:17:55.:17:58.

negotiation. I was disappointed slightly that he didn't make a

:17:59.:18:01.

distinction between issues which are matters for decision by the British

:18:02.:18:05.

government and issues which are a matter for negotiation between

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ourselves and the EU 27. Which issues are up for negotiation in

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your mind with the EU member states? Once we've left, or in preparation

:18:14.:18:19.

to leave, we want to discuss what the trading relationship will be

:18:20.:18:21.

between Britain and the EU subsequently. He hasn't got a plan

:18:22.:18:26.

for that yet. There are only two conceivable options. One, we trade

:18:27.:18:35.

on the basis of the three trading partners. The alternative is that we

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continue without tariffs. If they want to go to WTO tariffs, that is

:18:42.:18:45.

fine by us, but it'll be bad for them. But we knew that. We've known

:18:46.:18:50.

that for several months. No work has been done, has it, in terms of

:18:51.:18:53.

developing either of those two scenarios? They are both simple. Why

:18:54.:18:59.

haven't they decided which one they are going for? It is not for us, it

:19:00.:19:04.

is what the US decides. And no presentation has been made yet? The

:19:05.:19:09.

process hasn't started yet. It feels as if no work has been done over the

:19:10.:19:13.

summer. It feels we are no further forward in the minds of many of your

:19:14.:19:16.

colleagues as to where we are going to go with this exiting from the EU.

:19:17.:19:22.

And people are impatient. And business will feel uncertainty will

:19:23.:19:26.

grow. It is not at the moment, clearly the figures are there and

:19:27.:19:28.

there's been some sort of economic bounce, but uncertainty will grow to

:19:29.:19:32.

stop that was my worry. We don't want this process to go on longer

:19:33.:19:38.

than necessary. -- will grow. There is a two year period. Why not one

:19:39.:19:42.

year, three years, whatever, no explanation. As a danger we

:19:43.:19:47.

automatically think it has to take two years. My ask is that we had an

:19:48.:19:54.

assurance that we would go for the minimum with appropriate

:19:55.:19:58.

preparation. Do you agree, that it should be quicker, sooner rather

:19:59.:20:03.

than later? Should we be invoking article 50 as soon as possible? I

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don't. And we haven't been given any serious indication the government

:20:09.:20:11.

knows where it is going with Brexit. I believe Parliament really was

:20:12.:20:16.

quite shocked that after two hours, genuinely people were no more wise

:20:17.:20:19.

after that two our presentation than they were before it. You would have

:20:20.:20:24.

thought that in less time David Davis and his colleagues would have

:20:25.:20:27.

come up with some kind of set of options. I don't think Peter is

:20:28.:20:31.

quite right. It is the case that you can have WTO or nothing. You have

:20:32.:20:38.

the possibility of a Norway type arrangement where you can still have

:20:39.:20:41.

access to the single market. He ruled that out. That was a progress.

:20:42.:20:45.

Theresa May says that won't happen because there won't be freedom of

:20:46.:20:49.

movement. No points-based system, we have clarity on that, and that is

:20:50.:20:58.

what Theresa May said. She wanted a numerical total, as well. You may

:20:59.:21:02.

have points within that to decide within that total number who you are

:21:03.:21:05.

going to take. But she didn't want to have the Australian points-based

:21:06.:21:08.

system alone to control freedom of movement. We know that some things

:21:09.:21:13.

are going to happen now. And some things have been ruled out in terms

:21:14.:21:16.

of Brexit. So there has been some progress. I don't know that there

:21:17.:21:21.

really has. She says she wants to consult with the country. We know

:21:22.:21:25.

when people were voting Brexit they were not necessarily saying which

:21:26.:21:30.

are the options we wanted, what Brexit would look like. That is why

:21:31.:21:33.

we need some time. Not to do it as fast as Peter would like. So you

:21:34.:21:37.

have more time for consultation, more time to bring the country back

:21:38.:21:40.

together in some ways. This has been one of the most divisive elements

:21:41.:21:43.

that has happened in our country for decades. It seems to me that we

:21:44.:21:48.

should be using that time to see how much of a compromise we can get that

:21:49.:21:51.

will meet the different desires of the people who voted Remain, the

:21:52.:21:54.

people who voted to leave, to see how much of a deal going forward we

:21:55.:22:00.

could have. Which, for example, means we would keep the environment

:22:01.:22:03.

protection we need, which would keep workers' rights and human rights.

:22:04.:22:06.

People will want to see a lot of free movement, as well. And the

:22:07.:22:10.

element of Freedom of movement and keeping some of the protections

:22:11.:22:12.

Caroline Lucas is talking about, that is what will happen over time.

:22:13.:22:17.

There will be a compromise. I agree with Caroline, that we should try to

:22:18.:22:22.

adopt all existing EU laws and regulations into British law. That

:22:23.:22:26.

is what countries do when they become independent. When India

:22:27.:22:29.

became independent it adopted Imperial more to its own law.

:22:30.:22:33.

Likewise when Slovak Republic separated, they retained their

:22:34.:22:41.

existing laws. An awful lot of it is quite sensible. But it will take

:22:42.:22:46.

time. It cannot be done quickly. It can be done very quickly. How Wenger

:22:47.:22:51.

has not been much work done beforehand because they couldn't be?

:22:52.:22:57.

-- how when there has. They have drafted in people from other

:22:58.:23:00.

departments in the civil service. They are playing catch up. Now you

:23:01.:23:05.

are acknowledging there was a lot of work to do. They've probably been

:23:06.:23:08.

doing it in the summer. The most interesting question was actually

:23:09.:23:17.

the answer am sorry -- the answer, sorry, that we do do what other

:23:18.:23:22.

countries have done when going independent. He said there may be

:23:23.:23:26.

some difficulties and the civil service are working on it. I would

:23:27.:23:29.

like to know what those difficulties are. I understand that senior expert

:23:30.:23:34.

in constitutional law have disgusted with cabinet officials and they

:23:35.:23:36.

thought it was perfectly possible. If there are bits which will be more

:23:37.:23:42.

complicated, let's know about it in due course, but that is the sort of

:23:43.:23:46.

lines we will be working on. We will adopt the existing... He did say...

:23:47.:23:54.

Thousands of lines... There were in India. You adopt what you've already

:23:55.:23:59.

got. But it is the adoption which is difficult, it is deciding which

:24:00.:24:03.

one... You do not dump any on day one. Not on day one, but you said,

:24:04.:24:08.

then you have to decide... Their subsequently you do. But how long

:24:09.:24:14.

would that take... We had a review under Margaret Thatcher in the 80s.

:24:15.:24:18.

-- but subsequently you do. That is a different matter. That will be

:24:19.:24:21.

done as a sovereign independent parliament making its own decision.

:24:22.:24:25.

I see. Villa the misunderstanding which has been perpetrated by the

:24:26.:24:33.

BBC, is that you cannot go through it until you've gone to every bit of

:24:34.:24:38.

legislation. You don't do that. You adopt the process and change it when

:24:39.:24:42.

you need to. Then the ask something different. You said a rerun of the

:24:43.:24:46.

referendum would be an affront to democracy. So why are you calling

:24:47.:24:49.

for a second referendum on the terms of the deal? What I said would be an

:24:50.:24:55.

affront to democracy would be to do what the petition yesterday said,

:24:56.:24:59.

which would be to rerun, the 23rd of June, the same referendum but higher

:25:00.:25:03.

rules, have a -- but different roles, higher threshold, for

:25:04.:25:08.

example. That would be undemocratic. But what would be democratic would

:25:09.:25:12.

be to show people what things would look like after Brexit. Give people

:25:13.:25:16.

back control over what Brexit would look like. So after 18 months, or

:25:17.:25:19.

whatever this new package is going to look like I think that should

:25:20.:25:22.

come back to the country for people to have a say. Is that what you

:25:23.:25:28.

want. I'm not trying to rerun the 23rd of June. But you are calling

:25:29.:25:33.

for a second referendum. On the substance. And if that didn't pass

:25:34.:25:36.

we would have a different kind of Brexit, a different relationship

:25:37.:25:40.

with the EU, a closer one. Would that be fair? Allen it would be

:25:41.:25:47.

unnecessary -- it would be deeply insulting to the electorate and it

:25:48.:25:50.

would be unnecessary. Why would it be unnecessary and insulting? We

:25:51.:25:56.

told them what it would be. You can do it in different ways. Once you

:25:57.:26:01.

have control you can use it in a different way as an independent

:26:02.:26:05.

country. The shape of a Brexit deal could be different under different

:26:06.:26:08.

interpretations. The taking back control is... How are the

:26:09.:26:13.

environment or section is going to be? What about workers' rights?

:26:14.:26:17.

There will not be any. Can you tell me what the British government would

:26:18.:26:21.

do next year if we stay in. You would have a referendum every year

:26:22.:26:23.

because you don't know what the future holds. We will come back to

:26:24.:26:26.

this issue time and time again. Thank you very.

:26:27.:26:28.

Now the leadership of the Green Party -

:26:29.:26:30.

and I've got 50% of it here in the studio -

:26:31.:26:32.

has got a plan to try to reverse a situation which saw it win just

:26:33.:26:36.

one Commons' seat for more than 1 million votes

:26:37.:26:38.

It's been urging other parties on the left of politics to join

:26:39.:26:42.

a so-called "progressive alliance", including electoral pacts in some

:26:43.:26:44.

areas, to help defeat Conservative candidates.

:26:45.:26:45.

Let's have a listen to Caroline's other half,

:26:46.:26:47.

politically speaking, Jonathan Bartley.

:26:48.:26:50.

A progressive alliance can mean different things

:26:51.:26:53.

in different constituencies, but it will not be top-down.

:26:54.:26:55.

And our message to others who share a belief in a progressive,

:26:56.:27:04.

modern Britain is this, old tribal loyalties are dying.

:27:05.:27:07.

Voters can no longer be taken for granted.

:27:08.:27:09.

The era of two party politics is over.

:27:10.:27:21.

And we're joined now by the Labour MP, Peter Kyle,

:27:22.:27:24.

a neighbouring MP to Caroline Lucas in Brighton and Hove.

:27:25.:27:32.

Welcome to the programme. Caroline Lucas, how would an electoral pact

:27:33.:27:38.

work? I think it would be up to local people in local constituencies

:27:39.:27:42.

to make that decision. We are talking about a one off arrangement

:27:43.:27:45.

in a number of marginal seats whereby at the minute you might have

:27:46.:27:50.

Peter and myself fighting it out and a Tory comes through the middle. In

:27:51.:27:53.

Brighton and Hove this thing happens again and again. What we want to try

:27:54.:27:58.

to do is to get enough MPs who would have electoral reform as a number

:27:59.:28:03.

one issue in their manifesto. So the next election you could admit of

:28:04.:28:12.

this archaic system -- you could get rid of this archaic system. For

:28:13.:28:19.

marginal seats what is not to like? Every time I hear and speak to

:28:20.:28:24.

Caroline about this I can see the logic and the understanding of why

:28:25.:28:27.

this is an issue which a lot of people care about. But when I go

:28:28.:28:31.

away and think of it through the eyes of the electorate I cannot see

:28:32.:28:34.

how it would work through their eyes. I think what we are as a of

:28:35.:28:40.

establishment Labour Party, Green party, and other party officials,

:28:41.:28:44.

stitching up the election. I think from their side, through their eyes,

:28:45.:28:47.

they wouldn't understand why they are doing it. But otherwise you like

:28:48.:28:53.

it? What I like is the idea that parties come together and work when

:28:54.:28:56.

it is in our public and common interest between our two parties.

:28:57.:29:01.

Like we did during the European referendum. What I don't like is an

:29:02.:29:05.

electoral stitch up. I agree a stitch up, something that looks like

:29:06.:29:08.

it is top-down imposed wouldn't work and wouldn't be right. But in

:29:09.:29:12.

Brighton and Hove there is a Compass Group, another group called Sussex

:29:13.:29:18.

Progressives, who are local people coming together and saying, hang on,

:29:19.:29:21.

politicians, could you work it out in such a way that you don't have

:29:22.:29:25.

politicians who share more in common than they have apart, fighting it

:29:26.:29:28.

out between them, having observed its coming through again. Could you

:29:29.:29:33.

not be wiser. Would you stand out from your seat in order to allow the

:29:34.:29:37.

Labour candidate to win? If it was part of an overall deal I would do

:29:38.:29:41.

what is best in the Green party's interest. It has to be the case that

:29:42.:29:45.

ultimately one would have to be prepared to consider that. But the

:29:46.:29:48.

bottom one has to be that there is a fair outcomes are the Greens would

:29:49.:29:51.

get more seats than the one they have at the minute. Two issues I

:29:52.:29:57.

have. First, the voters, and even our own supporters, don't and they

:29:58.:30:00.

shouldn't do what we tell them to do. If you think there are 3000

:30:01.:30:06.

Green votes in Hove, I have a majority of 1236, so it would be

:30:07.:30:10.

great for me to have those, but when you look at my voting record their

:30:11.:30:14.

Ross and red lines that your voters wouldn't cross. Example, my vote on

:30:15.:30:25.

Trident. -- there are redlines. I think a lot of them would feel

:30:26.:30:28.

disenfranchised. That is what worries me about this idea. Except

:30:29.:30:32.

there are disagreements within Labour on Trident, of course, as we

:30:33.:30:36.

know. There are disagreements within parties. If it meant Labour would

:30:37.:30:39.

win more seats surely from a mercenary point of view that would

:30:40.:30:40.

be better. Brighton is a great example. In the

:30:41.:30:48.

last election, there were locals elections on the samedy as

:30:49.:30:50.

parliamentary. The Greens were running the council. The number one

:30:51.:30:55.

reason for voting intention, according to a BBC poll and own door

:30:56.:31:00.

stepping was - who is going to get rid of the Green Party? We thought

:31:01.:31:04.

of xaps, they were in third place and for the local council elections

:31:05.:31:07.

that we would be more compo at the time than the Greens locally. If we

:31:08.:31:11.

had said - don't vote for the Greens but vote for us locally but on the

:31:12.:31:16.

same day we were in a pact... You are trying to find all sorts of

:31:17.:31:19.

obstacles. He doesn't want to do it. I think voters would see it as an

:31:20.:31:22.

establishment stitch-up. I have already said that this is actually a

:31:23.:31:25.

demand coming up from the grassroots. Particularly in a place

:31:26.:31:29.

like Brighton and Hove. I have also said the big thing, the red line

:31:30.:31:32.

would be... Proporgssal representation. We want a system

:31:33.:31:36.

where there are fairer votes. It is not a system. Would you say yes to

:31:37.:31:41.

proportional representation. No. Therein lies the deal in tatters.

:31:42.:31:47.

But let's go further. Fortunately he doesn't speak for the whole of the

:31:48.:31:51.

Labour Party I speak for a party which has 230 MPs. Not a party that

:31:52.:31:57.

has more leaders than MPs. That's the difficulty of the alliance. That

:31:58.:32:04.

was a bit of a punch there. He is usually very courteous. The reality

:32:05.:32:08.

is surely to give people a voice. If you have an electoral system that

:32:09.:32:11.

means in so many seats there are safe seats, and it is not why people

:32:12.:32:15.

are voting because they can't get rid of them We need reform. I don't

:32:16.:32:19.

think PR answers all of the questions we need. Particularly with

:32:20.:32:21.

the strength of the political culture we have, with the

:32:22.:32:23.

establishment between constituency and MP. There is no reason to lose

:32:24.:32:28.

that. I need to ask Caroline something else. You were the one of

:32:29.:32:32.

them who said he doesn't speak for the whole of the #4r5i7. I'm not the

:32:33.:32:37.

leader. Jeremy Corbyn does. What conversations have you had about

:32:38.:32:41.

Jeremy Corbyn's office about this Before the summer, Natalie Bennett

:32:42.:32:45.

and myself wrote to Jeremy Corbyn to Leanne Woods and Tim far yob. We had

:32:46.:32:50.

had various responses back, more or less warm but saying there needs to

:32:51.:32:53.

be more debate from within the different parties. From Jeremy's

:32:54.:32:57.

office we had a message saying they are interested and what happened in

:32:58.:33:00.

the middle was a big leadership election and we have not heard back

:33:01.:33:03.

but we know there are plenty of people within Labour who are

:33:04.:33:06.

interested in this idea because they recognise our electoral system right

:33:07.:33:10.

now is consigning us, a grossive politicians, to silence. This

:33:11.:33:13.

includes Jeremy Corbyn. You think he is warm to the idea? He has no told

:33:14.:33:18.

me he is warm to the idea but the people around him suggest he is.

:33:19.:33:22.

Would they like to meet once the leadership contest... Depending, of

:33:23.:33:24.

course on the result. They have told me they would like to meet but what

:33:25.:33:29.

I am saying is that surely Labour is not - you must see that you are not

:33:30.:33:33.

going to win the next general election, whoever your next leader

:33:34.:33:36.

is. Look at Scotland and constituency boundary changes. You

:33:37.:33:40.

owe it to people who vote Labour to try to win. History tells us... Look

:33:41.:33:46.

at the pollsment That's the difference between the two of using.

:33:47.:33:50.

Agreement is not going so well so far. Thank you for your time.

:33:51.:33:58.

Now job-sharing is becoming more common in some British industries.

:33:59.:34:00.

For instance, Andrew and I share presenting duties -

:34:01.:34:03.

although I always insist that he does the weekends.

:34:04.:34:05.

But will it work at the top of a political party?

:34:06.:34:07.

It's been a long climb out of the political

:34:08.:34:11.

wilderness for the Green party and old habits die hard.

:34:12.:34:13.

Ah, the good old days when tree sit ins and beards were in vogue

:34:14.:34:16.

as the Green party's popularity rose in the late 80s.

:34:17.:34:19.

Over 2 million people voted Green in the 1989 European elections

:34:20.:34:24.

after this Crayola inspired campaign broadcast.

:34:25.:34:27.

Is this the picture you want for your children?

:34:28.:34:34.

Fuelling calls for the party to have a leader.

:34:35.:34:36.

Past moves to streamline the party have led invariably to the call

:34:37.:34:39.

Each year the motion reappears, rejected roundly by the members

:34:40.:34:42.

who sees no need for a single pop up face to fill the TV screens

:34:43.:34:46.

Almost 20 years later Caroline Lucas was elected as their first

:34:47.:34:53.

traditional party leader, and her breakthrough moment

:34:54.:34:55.

came when she entered the Commons shortly after that.

:34:56.:34:58.

Thank you so much for putting the politics of hope

:34:59.:35:00.

# We shall not, we shall not be moved #.

:35:01.:35:07.

Three years later she joined anti-fracking protesters and was

:35:08.:35:09.

Her successor as leader, Natalie Bennett, is credited

:35:10.:35:18.

with overseeing a rise in party membership.

:35:19.:35:22.

If not quite remembering what her policies were.

:35:23.:35:26.

How can you hope to raise 45 billion?

:35:27.:35:29.

People are very welcome to have a look at the Green party

:35:30.:35:32.

website and see how the figures are worked out.

:35:33.:35:34.

You would make it legal for people living here to be

:35:35.:35:37.

a member of Al-Qaeda, or Isis, or the IRA, you would make

:35:38.:35:41.

it legal to be a member of a terrorist organisation?

:35:42.:35:43.

She complained of brain fade in interviews.

:35:44.:35:50.

We stand here more united with two leaders than other

:35:51.:35:58.

Co-leader Jonathan Bartley was once a researcher

:35:59.:36:06.

for the Conservative Party before coming to prominence publicly

:36:07.:36:09.

challenging David Cameron about his policies on inclusive

:36:10.:36:11.

education with his disabled son by his side.

:36:12.:36:14.

You are not representing the needs of children.

:36:15.:36:21.

Most recently he was the Green party's spokesman

:36:22.:36:23.

Be careful, no, be very careful, you say...

:36:24.:36:26.

So, what pitfalls could Britain's first political party

:36:27.:36:28.

I asked the Guardian's part-time political editor.

:36:29.:36:31.

No one can get a slip of paper between you.

:36:32.:36:36.

If somebody comes talking to me, trying to lobby me, well,

:36:37.:36:38.

Heather knows exactly what they've been saying

:36:39.:36:40.

You're not just leader of the Green Party Monday to Friday,

:36:41.:36:53.

nine to five, you are leader of the Green Party all the time.

:36:54.:36:56.

You know, the world of news doesn't stop, the world

:36:57.:36:58.

In theory, one person can't be there 24 hours a day,

:36:59.:37:02.

seven days a week, so, actually, I think it's

:37:03.:37:04.

going to become much more sensible to have job shares

:37:05.:37:06.

Green Party members overwhelmingly back this job share

:37:07.:37:09.

Now the two leaders could well determine whether this first

:37:10.:37:13.

And we're joined now by the other half of the new Green Party

:37:14.:37:21.

leadership, Jonathan Bartley, so congratulations to you both.

:37:22.:37:24.

Thank you very much. Why a job share? Well, I approached Caroline

:37:25.:37:31.

about it because of my personal circumstances. I have a passion for

:37:32.:37:33.

politics, a long-standing interest in it but my son is disabled, I have

:37:34.:37:39.

responsibilities for him to look after him and care for him but I

:37:40.:37:41.

think that brings something important to politics. We need

:37:42.:37:44.

people with experience, like those, so they can be authentic in their

:37:45.:37:48.

politics but a lot of people are, you know, cut out of the system

:37:49.:37:51.

because they don't have the time to do it because they have those

:37:52.:37:53.

responsibilities, they have caring responsibilities or they are

:37:54.:37:56.

disabled themselves. It is a way of demonstrating a new way of politics.

:37:57.:37:59.

We would like to see this idea spread. How will it work on

:38:00.:38:03.

ady-to-day basis? How will you divide all the responsibilities

:38:04.:38:06.

Well, it is working very well already. We have had a long hustings

:38:07.:38:10.

campaign, 12 or is he around the country, we have done a lot of

:38:11.:38:14.

interviews like this and talked people we. Divide up

:38:15.:38:17.

responsibilities, play to our strengths, Caroline will be in her

:38:18.:38:21.

constituency a lot. The serious things, about a political point f

:38:22.:38:28.

you look at Westminster in in particular, anyone casting their

:38:29.:38:31.

eyes across the benches can't say it represent Britain. If we want a

:38:32.:38:35.

Parliament that is more representative, a job share is

:38:36.:38:38.

practical. More black people, job sharing responsibilities, more

:38:39.:38:40.

people with caring responsibilities. I think we need a greater diversity.

:38:41.:38:45.

Many people can't give 24-7 necessarily and therefore, anything

:38:46.:38:49.

we can do to make Parliament more representative and ensure MPs have

:38:50.:38:53.

one foot firmly placed back in their constituency I think will lead to

:38:54.:38:56.

better politics. It is Tuesday today, we are doing a store story on

:38:57.:39:02.

Mack 1. We are doing it with Caroline because she was first up,

:39:03.:39:06.

who would I call? The press office. They would decide. Would they call

:39:07.:39:11.

you? I can't believe you are asking this question. These are the

:39:12.:39:14.

practical issues. You know that job sharing is a common thing across the

:39:15.:39:18.

country and thank goodness politics are catching up Not in politics. It

:39:19.:39:22.

is the same issue. How would it work. Who is going to run, or lead

:39:23.:39:26.

on a particular story on your programme. You know as well as I do,

:39:27.:39:30.

it is not rocket science to work that out. What is great about this

:39:31.:39:33.

is when one is doing something we would have had to turn the interview

:39:34.:39:37.

down because we would be elsewhere. Another one is available. The media

:39:38.:39:41.

are getting two for the price of one. A supermarket deal. But You say

:39:42.:39:47.

why am I asking about practical details. Noernt. If you are working

:39:48.:39:51.

on a big story on fracking or a big campaign and you can't make it and

:39:52.:39:54.

that's your strength, does it get hand over to Jonathan, do you have

:39:55.:39:58.

to tell each other - I can't do these days this week, can you cover

:39:59.:40:03.

for me? The reason I was saying, why are you asking me those those

:40:04.:40:06.

questions, of course they are the conversation that is would happen

:40:07.:40:09.

just as they would in any other organisation where job sharing is

:40:10.:40:13.

common. The leader of a party has been a one-person role where you are

:40:14.:40:16.

asking for an opinion and you are asking for... Maybe in Westminster

:40:17.:40:20.

it is the case but around the world it clearly isn't. CEOs. The 20 CEOs

:40:21.:40:26.

of Fortune 500 companies are sharing. In Germany and Sweden, and

:40:27.:40:30.

Green Parties around the world have done this. Maybe it is because we

:40:31.:40:34.

have a different vision of leadership. What is the difference

:40:35.:40:37.

between the two of you? I would simply say in the Green Party,

:40:38.:40:41.

leadership is more of a collegiate cooperative thing, it is not a

:40:42.:40:45.

topdown, we had a view in the night we will do X and impose it and

:40:46.:40:49.

therefore you need to know what is on in the brain of that person, it

:40:50.:40:53.

is much more delib radiotive and discussed with our Green Party exec

:40:54.:40:56.

taven maybe that's a delifrn kind of leadership which is more attractive.

:40:57.:40:59.

What did you have a disagreement on a key policy area? The great thing

:41:00.:41:04.

about the green Party is all our policies are decided democratically

:41:05.:41:15.

by our members. We go out and... - what do you do when you have a fight

:41:16.:41:23.

with Andrew. We fight it out and. But you have tried this and it was

:41:24.:41:29.

abandoned, you didn't like T The problem with principal speakers, we

:41:30.:41:32.

got it down to two in the end, but there were eight, ten. We spent most

:41:33.:41:37.

interviews trying to explain what it was. Using the language of leaders

:41:38.:41:40.

and co-leaders, at least we think it means something more to you, the

:41:41.:41:44.

public and so forth and we can get on and talk about our policies,

:41:45.:41:46.

rather than our structures. All right, thank you very much. We can

:41:47.:41:50.

agree on all of that. Caroline we say goodbye to you, but Jonathan you

:41:51.:41:52.

are staying. Scotland's First Minister,

:41:53.:41:54.

Nicola Sturgeon, is outlining her legislative priorities for the next

:41:55.:41:56.

five years today with education, healthcare and new welfare powers

:41:57.:41:58.

said to be high on the SNP's agenda. She'll be making a statement

:41:59.:42:01.

at Holyrood a little later, but let's get more from BBC

:42:02.:42:03.

Scotland's Political Brian. Tell us more. What can we

:42:04.:42:14.

expect? Well, first of all, much to the relief of viewsers there is only

:42:15.:42:18.

one of me. I will bring you up-to-date with what the First

:42:19.:42:21.

Minister is going for. I think encation and the economy, perhaps

:42:22.:42:24.

joint number one. Indeed Nicola Sturegon was out this morning Ned

:42:25.:42:28.

enborough opening a new school, a new high school, a new building for

:42:29.:42:33.

that, stressing that on the one hand it is educational aproe. , opened it

:42:34.:42:38.

is jobs to grow the economy. I think there will be an announcement of a

:42:39.:42:41.

welfare system for Scotland. Not detail of the benefits but new

:42:42.:42:45.

welfare powers this week have been transferred to Holyrood and they

:42:46.:42:49.

need a Social Security system up and running to go with as well as a tax

:42:50.:42:54.

system. The new tax powers are there. In terms of other things,

:42:55.:42:57.

health reforms, perhaps trying to bring health and social care more

:42:58.:43:01.

together. In that field of education, the big controversy could

:43:02.:43:04.

be an attempt to channel money directly to schools, directedly to

:43:05.:43:07.

headteachers and involving parents. And perhaps, to some extent cutting

:43:08.:43:11.

out the local authority. It is likely to be very contentious.

:43:12.:43:15.

Right, and despite how much effort will be put into the other areas,

:43:16.:43:18.

particularly into education and health as you have outlined, won't

:43:19.:43:24.

the focus still be on the talk of a second independence referendum? I

:43:25.:43:28.

think the second independence referendum will be mentioned in the

:43:29.:43:32.

First Minister's statement. I think she will confirm that there is early

:43:33.:43:38.

planning under way. Planning for the necessary legislation to set out

:43:39.:43:41.

that referendum, but it will be a reference, a passing reference. I

:43:42.:43:46.

think, you know, that she is, is perhaps slightly sensitive about the

:43:47.:43:49.

idea, the attack that comes from Opposition parties who say - Nicola

:43:50.:43:52.

Sturegon, you are ignoring the day job, you are obsess being

:43:53.:43:56.

independence. Now she has dismissed that accusation. She puts it to one

:43:57.:44:01.

side but she knows if it is repeated endlessly, and it is being repeated

:44:02.:44:05.

endlessly -- understandably from the point of view of her opponents, if

:44:06.:44:11.

it is going repeated, it forms seeds in the voters' minds so #20ed she's

:44:12.:44:14.

going to counter that about saying it is about the nuts and bolts of

:44:15.:44:20.

deliver ri, the hard task of delivering the SNP manifesto, about

:44:21.:44:24.

the economy, education, health, welfare.

:44:25.:44:31.

While we were talking Keith Vaz has announced his regular igs nation

:44:32.:44:37.

from the Home Affairs committee. He says it is in the best interest of

:44:38.:44:40.

the Home Affairs Select Committee Thwaites important work can be

:44:41.:44:43.

conducted without any distractions whatsoever. "I'm enonlinely sorry

:44:44.:44:52.

recent he events make this possible while I'm Chair." Breaking news just

:44:53.:44:56.

appeared in front of me. -- I'm very sorry.

:44:57.:45:00.

Now yesterday the British Medical Association called off the junior

:45:01.:45:03.

doctors' strike that was due to take place in England next week.

:45:04.:45:05.

The BMA said it was not backing down in the dispute over

:45:06.:45:08.

a new contract for junior doctors, but said it wanted to give the NHS

:45:09.:45:12.

sufficient time to prepare for industrial action.

:45:13.:45:13.

A series of further all-out five day stoppages are still planned

:45:14.:45:16.

for later in the year, with the first due

:45:17.:45:18.

Let's have a listen to the Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt,

:45:19.:45:22.

This afternoon's news of them delaying the first strike is,

:45:23.:45:34.

But we mustn't let it obscure the fact that the remaining planned

:45:35.:45:38.

industrial action is unprecedented in length and severity.

:45:39.:45:40.

Some of whom will have already had operations cancelled.

:45:41.:45:46.

Many NHS organisations, including NHS England,

:45:47.:45:48.

NHS providers, the NHS Confederation, and NHS improvement

:45:49.:45:50.

have expressed concern about the potential impact

:45:51.:45:52.

Indeed, this morning the General medical Council published its advice

:45:53.:46:03.

Whilst recognising a doctor's legal right to take industrial action,

:46:04.:46:12.

they urged all doctors in training to pause and consider

:46:13.:46:14.

We're joined now by the Conservative MP, David Morris, who spoke

:46:15.:46:18.

You are pleased I presume, the strike next week has been called

:46:19.:46:27.

off. I'm very pleased. And they shouldn't be any more striking. The

:46:28.:46:32.

contract has been agreed. I just didn't understand what the BMA Pope

:46:33.:46:37.

to get by this. Public support for the doctors strike is waning. --

:46:38.:46:45.

hoped. It has dropped nine points and a plentiful probably continue in

:46:46.:46:48.

that way, won't it? I don't know. But I know that my dad was a doctor.

:46:49.:46:55.

I just spent a month in hospital with my son. Doctors do not go into

:46:56.:46:59.

the industry to cause trouble, they go into it to help people and save

:47:00.:47:04.

lives. I think we need to take these concerns seriously. The fact that

:47:05.:47:08.

they would go so far as to strike, we need to listen to them. But they

:47:09.:47:12.

are putting patients' lives at some risk. You say you have a doctor in

:47:13.:47:15.

the family, and you are going to hospital with your disabled son,

:47:16.:47:19.

then you are relying on those doctors being there. I'm relying on

:47:20.:47:24.

a good service for years to come. We have less investment as a proportion

:47:25.:47:28.

of GDP at the moment in the last six years. We've had an entire history

:47:29.:47:31.

of the NHS as a proportion of the GDP. That is concerning and that

:47:32.:47:39.

will cause hurt in the long run. I have heard Doctor after doctor say

:47:40.:47:42.

how difficult this is for them and I believe them. I believe it is very

:47:43.:47:46.

difficult for them. Has Jeremy Hunt handled this well? He has handled it

:47:47.:47:52.

the best he possibly can do. What does that mean? It is politically

:47:53.:47:56.

motivated. There has been a shake-up at the top of the BMA. They have a

:47:57.:48:02.

deputy chairman, who I know and my local papers follow him. Are you

:48:03.:48:06.

accusing junior doctors of being politically motivated? I'm accusing

:48:07.:48:11.

the BMA of it. They have to have the support of junior doctors. Please

:48:12.:48:17.

don't talk over each other. The junior doctors have made these

:48:18.:48:22.

decisions. You are wrong. There has been no ballot on this. 4% of

:48:23.:48:28.

doctors actually want this strike to go ahead. 4%. There has been no

:48:29.:48:33.

ballot. There should be. There has been a shake-up at the top of the

:48:34.:48:37.

BMA. Who is it who are going on strike? 4% of junior doctors? The

:48:38.:48:44.

BMA are instructing their members to go on strike. 8% of junior doctors

:48:45.:48:49.

rejected the deal that was agreed by the BMA. Junior doctors are still

:48:50.:48:54.

not happy. Their claims, and I am paraphrasing, are back in order to

:48:55.:48:58.

put and satisfy a manifesto commitment to make a seven-day

:48:59.:49:02.

service they change the junior doctors' contract in order to make

:49:03.:49:06.

that happen with no more money will stop they do get paid more money at

:49:07.:49:13.

the weekends. -- more money. I mean resources in general. The resources

:49:14.:49:15.

is not the reason why they are striking. They are striking because

:49:16.:49:21.

they have agreed a contract... A contract has been imposed. It was

:49:22.:49:25.

agreed, there has been a shake-up at the top, it is politically motivated

:49:26.:49:30.

and that is why it is happening. Are you saying that no doctor is

:49:31.:49:33.

politically motivated? I'm sure you would get the same percentage in the

:49:34.:49:40.

medical industry. It has been used as... Somebody is going to have to

:49:41.:49:43.

stand up for the patients. The best people placed to see what is going

:49:44.:49:48.

on with the doctors are -- with the patient is the doctors. When you

:49:49.:49:51.

navigate your way through the mire of problems and disputes through

:49:52.:49:55.

this with the government and junior doctors, it has come on many

:49:56.:49:59.

occasions, come down to this narrow demand of increasing Saturday pay.

:50:00.:50:04.

Making it the same as overtime pay at times. Junior doctors are worried

:50:05.:50:09.

they will have to work these additional hours. That will put

:50:10.:50:12.

patient safety at risk. Doctors hours are coming down, down from 92

:50:13.:50:18.

to 70 hours. That is in the contract. When was the last time you

:50:19.:50:22.

spent a considerable amount of time in hospital? I see doctors working

:50:23.:50:26.

hour after hour. They look haggard, tired, they are coming in, doing

:50:27.:50:31.

emergency operations, they are struggling. Why are you not

:50:32.:50:36.

investing in them? We are. There is less than any time of proportional

:50:37.:50:42.

GDP. There isn't. Yes there is. There are 4000 more doctors being

:50:43.:50:46.

trained than in the last parliament. It is about keeping pace with

:50:47.:50:51.

demand. Demand, and the fact that many people are living longer means

:50:52.:50:55.

it isn't keeping pace with expectations of the voting public.

:50:56.:50:59.

That is what the doctors say needs to be addressed in the long term.

:51:00.:51:04.

That is what Jeremy Hunt is doing. He's placed to put money into the

:51:05.:51:07.

NHS over the course of this Parliament. Simon says there isn't

:51:08.:51:12.

enough. They have to find the money. You agree that have to find the

:51:13.:51:18.

money? I agree that after going through a turmoil of recession and a

:51:19.:51:21.

period of economic austerity we are at a position now where we have got

:51:22.:51:26.

politically motivated nonsense, quite frankly, from the BMA being

:51:27.:51:31.

peddled forward that I actually think it's probably transgressing

:51:32.:51:35.

the various acts we put in Parliament about lobbying and the

:51:36.:51:40.

effects of it. Because we have different people on the board of the

:51:41.:51:43.

BMA wearing different hats. We have a chairman of the Unite as the

:51:44.:51:50.

deputy of the BMA that has the history of peddling nonsense. Not

:51:51.:51:53.

just in my local paper, but nationally. You have got to find the

:51:54.:51:59.

money, you said. You have had your say, let me finish. We are at this

:52:00.:52:03.

position where the junior doctors and the BMA have agreed the contract

:52:04.:52:07.

and now they are going back on it. That cannot happen. The junior

:52:08.:52:11.

doctors said they didn't accept the contract in the first place but the

:52:12.:52:16.

BMA did. May I add, at the last election there was an overwhelming

:52:17.:52:19.

mandate to sort this problem out and that is what Jeremy Hunt is doing.

:52:20.:52:24.

Do you think a deal will be done? I hope it is a deal that satisfies the

:52:25.:52:28.

doctors. We needed that the doctors in control. It was about giving back

:52:29.:52:32.

control to the country, giving back control to the people who need to

:52:33.:52:35.

work long hours and squeezing every bit of the NHS they can. We need a

:52:36.:52:39.

decent NHS with doctors who can do the job properly. That is what we

:52:40.:52:41.

need to secure. Thanks very much. Now, you may not have

:52:42.:52:44.

heard of Godwin's Law, but it's an idea that was coined

:52:45.:52:46.

by an American in the early days of the internet and it says that

:52:47.:52:49.

if an online discussion goes on long enough, it will always end

:52:50.:52:53.

with someone comparing someone But these days this doesn't seem

:52:54.:52:55.

to be confined to the internet, but is becoming a regular feature

:52:56.:53:01.

in political debate. Yesterday after Theresa May appeared

:53:02.:53:03.

to rule out the idea of introducing an Australian-style points system,

:53:04.:53:06.

the former Liberal Democrat leader Paddy Ashdown sent a tweet

:53:07.:53:08.

which read 'the Tory Brexit brownshirts are stirring' -

:53:09.:53:11.

the brownshirts being a name used to describe the paramilitary

:53:12.:53:13.

wing of the Nazi Party. During the referendum campaign

:53:14.:53:20.

Boris Johnson, not exactly a stranger to controversy,

:53:21.:53:23.

said that the EU had the same aim as Hitler in trying to create

:53:24.:53:26.

a political superstate. His colleague Michael Gove said

:53:27.:53:30.

'we have to be careful about historical comparisons',

:53:31.:53:33.

before roundly ignoring his own advice and comparing economic

:53:34.:53:35.

experts supporting Remain And the former London mayor

:53:36.:53:37.

Ken Livingstone was at the centre of a media scrum and was suspended

:53:38.:53:46.

from the Labour Party after arguing We are joined by a journalist who is

:53:47.:54:07.

nodding away. What Boris Johnson correct to compare the European

:54:08.:54:12.

Union's aims to that of Nazi Germany during the referendum campaign? I

:54:13.:54:15.

can see why people are tempted to make Nazi references. It is the only

:54:16.:54:18.

bit of history people know these days. So it is lazy, isn't it? When

:54:19.:54:24.

I was at school it was all about the Middle Ages, but now all you get

:54:25.:54:29.

taught is about the rise of the Nazis. Paddy Ashdown comparing the

:54:30.:54:40.

70 when five people -- comparing the 17.5 million people who voted to

:54:41.:54:46.

leave, I don't think that works. There are occasions, I think, when

:54:47.:54:50.

the Nazi analogy is used, particularly by the left, to slack

:54:51.:54:53.

off people they don't like. Anybody mildly to the right they call Nazis.

:54:54.:55:04.

There is an interesting comparison to make. We encourage our children

:55:05.:55:14.

to study history to learn the lessons of the past. I do hear

:55:15.:55:19.

people coming to me, and I'm careful about saying it, because it is

:55:20.:55:24.

inflammatory, but I think there are parallels with the age of insecurity

:55:25.:55:27.

that we are experiencing at the moment. People feel unsure. The far

:55:28.:55:35.

right has in 70 in times like this. We saw it in the 1930s, we've seen

:55:36.:55:39.

the referendum today, and we have seen a rise in hate crime which is

:55:40.:55:46.

alarming. In many communities. In the end many people will justify how

:55:47.:55:50.

they have used their Nazi analogy, but isn't it just crass and lazy?

:55:51.:55:55.

No, I didn't agree with Jonathan on the detail, but on the broad issue

:55:56.:55:59.

of whether we should use Nazi analogies... I think, actually, the

:56:00.:56:02.

interesting thing about Nazi Germany is that it happened in a country

:56:03.:56:07.

which invented Beethoven and Schubert. Civilised people. Get over

:56:08.:56:10.

a period of five years they were effectively taken hostage by this

:56:11.:56:19.

party which was a joke. Do you worry history may be repeating itself? I

:56:20.:56:24.

do in terms of the left's war on free speech, the liberal left

:56:25.:56:28.

wall... You have used the term about Green party, or some of the Green

:56:29.:56:36.

party being eco-Nazis. Yes. How can that be when the Nazis were about

:56:37.:56:40.

dehumanising people, destroying the Jews... The Hitler era is rich in

:56:41.:56:47.

green analogies. Get the's Germany was the paradigms of green

:56:48.:56:50.

analogies. Himmler wanted to feed the S S and organic food only until

:56:51.:56:55.

somebody explained to him that it cannot be produced and such a scale.

:56:56.:57:00.

Goering wanted to put people who abused animals into concentration

:57:01.:57:05.

camps. I'm not sure whether to laugh or to say that is incredibly

:57:06.:57:10.

offensive. The truth hurts. I'm passionate about opposing fascism in

:57:11.:57:13.

this country. I'm probably one of the strongest opponents of Ukip. I

:57:14.:57:19.

would label Ukip in that fascist bracket. I don't think it is helpful

:57:20.:57:23.

to descend into the name-calling. Let's look at what people are

:57:24.:57:26.

standing for, the values, the policies of Ukip and the way they

:57:27.:57:29.

want to cut down on immigration. Let's look at the effect that has

:57:30.:57:33.

had on the divisions in our local communities. It is something we need

:57:34.:57:36.

to speak about and talk rationally about. Was Paddy Ashdown right to

:57:37.:57:42.

call Tory Brexiteers brownshirts? It wasn't helpful to the debate, but I

:57:43.:57:46.

see what he was trying to say. Was Michael Gove right to say that those

:57:47.:57:49.

economic experts supporting Remain when Nazi propagandists -- were. He

:57:50.:57:59.

was talking about the paper Hitler commissioned, the authors against

:58:00.:58:03.

Einstein, a specific analogy. Thank you.

:58:04.:58:05.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:58:06.:58:08.

Caroline was asked the question but I'm sure as they think as one

:58:09.:58:11.

on all things Jonathan will know the answer.

:58:12.:58:13.

The question was which celebrity is Jeremy Corybn appearing

:58:14.:58:15.

I know Billy Bragg supports him and UB40, I think it might be UB40.

:58:16.:58:35.

# Red red Wine # Goes to my head #.

:58:36.:58:43.

You are right. I didn't have a chance to say thank you for all of

:58:44.:58:44.

your history information today. The One O'Clock News is starting

:58:45.:58:46.

over on BBC One now. I'll be back at 11:30 tomorrow

:58:47.:58:51.

with Andrew for live coverage in a brand-new BBC Two quiz show,

:58:52.:58:54.

Debatable, where a team of celebrities put

:58:55.:59:08.

their debating skills to the test to try to win their contestants

:59:09.:59:12.

pots of cash. Will they help, or will they hinder?

:59:13.:59:15.

That's Debatable. The stars are out for

:59:16.:59:23.

a glittering night of awards,

:59:24.:59:27.

Jo Coburn is joined by Green Party co-leaders Caroline Lucas and Jonathan Bartley to discuss how their job share will work and look at the possibility of a so-called 'progressive alliance' with other left-wing parties with Labour's Peter Kyle. Plus the latest on the allegations against Home Affairs Select Committee chairman Keith Vaz and a look at what happens next in the dispute between the government and junior doctors.


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