05/09/2016 Daily Politics


05/09/2016

Jo Coburn is joined by former Northern Ireland secretary Theresa Villiers and Labour MP Chuka Umunna to discuss the prime minister's comments on immigration.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:36.:00:42.

Theresa May says a points-based system for restricting immigration

:00:43.:00:44.

will not work and is not an option - so how should the numbers coming

:00:45.:00:48.

Not for the first time Labour MP Keith Vaz finds himself

:00:49.:00:53.

Can the Chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee survive the latest

:00:54.:00:57.

They voted for a Labour leader many of their MPs don't like -

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and they might be about to do it again.

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So is it time Labour members got the right

:01:10.:01:11.

Are we about to see a new generation of grammar schools? Theresa May,

:01:12.:01:23.

herself the product of a grammar, is reportedly in favour.

:01:24.:01:27.

Is selective education the answer to providing opportunity to children

:01:28.:01:30.

All that in the next hour and with us for the whole

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of the programme today is Labour's Chuka Umunna and former

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Northern Irleand Secretary, Theresa Villiers.

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First this morning, Keith Vaz is one of Labour's most senior MPs -

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has been the Chairman of the influential Home

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Affairs Select Committee for almost ten years -

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but this morning he is fighting for his political reputation

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after a Sunday newspaper recorded him meeting male escorts.

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Let's speak to our political reporter, Ellie Price.

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What was uncovered? These are allegations made in the Sunday

:02:03.:02:08.

Mirror that the Labour MP Keith Vaz paid for the services of two

:02:09.:02:12.

escorts, that they came to his London flat and during that time

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they discussed using the party drug known as poppers as well as the

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possibility of getting hold of some cocaine. There were some record is

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made of this meeting and during those recordings it appears that

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Keith Vaz described himself as a washing machine salesman called Jim.

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If all that weren't bad enough this morning there were further

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allegations in some of the papers of links made by man linked to Keith

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Vaz's charity Silver Star, had paid money to those escorts. Awkward for

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the father of two who is married, and of course, as you say, he's the

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chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee, pretty much one of the

:02:54.:02:56.

most influential select committees at Westminster dealing with issues

:02:57.:02:59.

of law and order and of course on issues like prostitution and drug

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taking. In fact, earlier this year Keith Vaz was one of the MPs that

:03:04.:03:07.

persuaded government not to go ahead with criminalising poppers, and just

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last month the Home Affairs Select Committee released a report

:03:12.:03:14.

suggesting that they should be a relaxation in the laws on

:03:15.:03:19.

prostitution. At this point what has been the reaction from Keith Vaz

:03:20.:03:23.

himself? Keith Vaz has said he has referred

:03:24.:03:27.

all of this to his lawyer. He said it is deeply disturbing that a

:03:28.:03:32.

national newspaper should have paid individuals who acted in this way.

:03:33.:03:35.

We also heard from the Charity Commission who said they are aware

:03:36.:03:39.

of allegations made regarding an individual linked to the Charity

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Silver Star and they asked journalists to pass on any evidence

:03:45.:03:47.

but as yet there is no formal investigation under way. The big

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question is now what happens to Keith Vaz? Does he stay as chairman

:03:52.:03:55.

of the Home Affairs Select Committee. He said he will make a

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full announcement tomorrow when the committee meets but as yet we're not

:03:58.:04:01.

sure, although increasing pressure from a number of MPs here in

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Westminster. Ellie Price, thank you.

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Let's get more reaction from Chuka Umunna. Surely he has to step aside

:04:08.:04:14.

as the chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee?

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The revelations over the weekend, when you see things like that, your

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immediate initial feeling is, what has his family gone through over the

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last weekend? I'm a member of the Home Affairs Select Committee. It

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would be wrong, if you like, allow one of the Sunday papers as sit and

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be judge and jury on this issue and we will have a conversation with him

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during our private session tomorrow. Do you think is right for him to

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continue as the chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee which was

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looking at is used like prostitution, looking at issues as

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to whether the party drug, the poppers he is alleged to have taken,

:04:48.:04:53.

should be banned? He was in favour of keeping them legal. Is it right

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that he can really continue in that role?

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Well, look, we will be discussing those issues during our meeting

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tomorrow? What do you think? I don't want to give my opinion

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because I haven't had a chance to talk to him about it. He has sent

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round to the committee details of the statement that has been put out

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and been absolutely clear the work of the committee is paramount, we

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have important reports, not least on female genital mutilation, and

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ongoing inquiries into counterterrorism, anti-Semitism and

:05:23.:05:25.

other important topics we need to get on with.

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As his reputation been damaged by this?

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Well, clearly, if you have revelations in the papers like that

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and they are allegations, he is taking legal advice on it, you take

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legal advice on it because you worry about your reputation.

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What will that do to the Home Affairs Select Committee? If you

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agree that his reputation is damaged in some way, certainly the

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Conservative MP from the Tory side Andrew Bridgen said he shouldn't

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just stepped down as chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee, he

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said he would like to see him step down as an MP. Is he justified in

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saying that? It's not helpful to jump on these

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type of bandwagons in advance of hearing from Keith. I don't think

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that's fair. If Andrew Bridgen wants to make party political capital out

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of this, then so be it. I happen to think that actually when the public

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reads stories like this they don't make any distinction as to which

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party you belong to. I don't think it's a good thing for Parliament

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when we have these types of story. But like I said I'm reluctant to

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give a view because I want to hear what he has to say, I haven't had a

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chance to speak to him about this. Do you think it is, as Keith Vaz

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said, deeply disturbing that a national newspaper paid individuals

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who have basically trying to entrap him, as he believes?

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Well, I think there are obviously questions to be asked about how that

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happened. He is a private individual too.

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He is a private individual but he holds an important role looking at

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matters related to drugs like poppers and prostitution. I wouldn't

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be rushing to judgment against the newspaper concerned for this kind of

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thing. But, I mean, where I sort of agree with Chuka it's not

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necessarily the right thing to rush to judgment today. I think is

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reasonable for Keith to want to discuss this with his committee. It

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seems to me it's going to be very difficult for him to stay on.

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Do you think he should stay on, should he at least step aside? He

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hasn't decided to step aside at this point.

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I think it is more or less inevitable that he will step aside

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at least on a temporary basis, yes. But coming back to this sting

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operation, do you think there is public interest here? Because, that

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is certainly what the paper will say and has said, in fact, to justify

:07:44.:07:45.

what they did? I don't know the details of what

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they did and how they went about it. But I think they are probably making

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a reasonable point, there is a public interest in these facts,

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given the role that Keith has in parliament.

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Do you think there is a public interest here?

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I think when you look at social media and some of the coverage, and

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the references to sexuality I think that's being pretty distasteful. I

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don't really think his sexuality should be necessary as a topic of

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conversation, but it has been. I think the other issues that have

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been raised, potentially, they are more relevant but there are things

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people need to explore with Keith. And as you say you will be meeting

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tomorrow with Keith Vaz. We will meet tomorrow.

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It will be a private session, we will not have cameras in there.

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Presumably you will talk afterwards. Afterwards I imagine the committee

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is composed of members across the house from all the different parties

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and will have a collective discussion and hopefully come to a

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collective view about things. Right.

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Now - Theresa May has stepped out on the world stage at the G20

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in Hangzhou in China - it's her first big international

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conference as Prime Minister - and an opportunity to tell other

:08:51.:08:53.

world leaders what Britain's intentions are in the aftermath

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Let's talk to our correspondent in Hangzhou Robin Brant. Let's get some

:08:56.:09:07.

reaction from the other world leaders. Obama looked glum and

:09:08.:09:11.

seemed to repeat his mantra about the UK perhaps go into the back of

:09:12.:09:15.

the queue in terms of trade deals. There have also been warnings from

:09:16.:09:18.

Japan. Barack Obama, for the record, in the

:09:19.:09:21.

final months of his presidency warned again about the adverse

:09:22.:09:25.

effects that the UK's decision to leave the EU might have on its

:09:26.:09:29.

trading relationship with the United States, as you said. He reminded

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Theresa May it will be at the back of the queue in terms of any

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potential UK- US free trade negotiation behind the EU behind

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America's Asia Pacific partners. That wasn't a Ray of light for her,

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really, was it? Today the Japanese added to that substantial 15 page

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document from the Ministry of foreign affairs yesterday painting a

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bleak picture of what some sizeable Japanese corporations may do in

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deciding to leave the UK if it leaves the European Union at the

:09:56.:09:58.

same time as not having any access to the Single Market. There was a

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brush by, brief moment, between Shinzo Abe, Japan's Prime Minister,

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and Theresa May today. According to the sun's imminent political editor

:10:10.:10:13.

Shinzo Abe pushed her again on more detail on what it will mean for

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Japanese firms. She's under pressure to give more detail but we know she

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can't because she herself doesn't know.

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Except on the issue of immigration where she has been a little clearer

:10:23.:10:27.

in terms of rejecting the idea of a points-based system. In fact, one of

:10:28.:10:30.

her spokespeople at No 10 has actually ruled it out.

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Well, she's been clearer in saying what she doesn't want. But this is

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not an affirmative announcement about what the Prime Minister, ten

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weeks after the vote, thinks, she may want her government to seek to

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achieve from the European Union. She told journalists accompanying her on

:10:47.:10:50.

the trip out here that the Australian points-based system was

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not a silver bullet. Her official spokeswoman went further and said it

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is not an option, and I think adding that there was full Cabinet support

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for that. Boris Johnson, now Foreign Secretary and a prominent campaigner

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to leave the EU, of course, has rowed back on his support for that

:11:07.:11:09.

during the campaign. Robin Brant at the G20 conference in

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Hangzhou. Let's pick up now on Theresa May's

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comments about what kind of immigration system the UK should

:11:17.:11:19.

have after we have left the EU. During the referendum campaign,

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Vote Leave said that the UK should introduce an Australian-style

:11:23.:11:24.

points-based immigration system which would end the "automatic right

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of all EU citizens to come to live and work in the UK"

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and "discrimination The Australian system awards

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economic migrants points for their personal attributes,

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including age and qualifications, and their occupational status,

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unless you are sponsored by an employer, you must reach

:11:43.:11:44.

a certain number of points Migrants are also subject to medical

:11:45.:11:46.

checks and a character test. In recent years Australia has

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encouraged skilled migrants to apply and has increased the number

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of places available in its Migration In 2008, the Labour government

:12:00.:12:02.

introduced a similar system for skilled migrants

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and students coming to the UK But Theresa May yesterday cast doubt

:12:08.:12:09.

over whether a points-based system She said there is "no single

:12:10.:12:16.

silver bullet in terms And this morning a Number 10

:12:17.:12:24.

spokesman has ruled it out, "As the PM has said many times

:12:25.:12:38.

in the past, a Points Based System We're joined now from

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Madeleine Sumption from Welcome to the programme. First of

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all, to you, Theresa Villiers, do you feel betrayed by the fact the

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system that you campaigned on in terms of reducing the numbers coming

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into the UK has been rejected by the Prime Minister? I don't because

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there is a range of ways to Internet the Brexit vote. I think what is

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clear is that people in this country voting to leave, wanting to regain

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control over making our own laws in this country, and that includes

:13:11.:13:15.

regaining control of the immigration system and introducing a system

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which does two things. It enables the people we elect in this country

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to control the overall numbers, and also gives us in this country the

:13:23.:13:27.

right to reject individuals. So it marks an end to free for all open

:13:28.:13:31.

door immigration from the rest of the EU. You can do it with a points

:13:32.:13:35.

system, or with other systems, or accommodation of a work permit and

:13:36.:13:39.

points based system. Very different ways.

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Why did Vote Leave believe a points-based system would be the

:13:43.:13:44.

most successful way reducing numbers?

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I think it would work well but I'm not going to sit here and say you

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couldn't achieve as good a result using a work permit system. The

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important thing is that it's implemented effectively, it's

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rigorously unforced and brings down the numbers.

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Do you agree with Theresa Villiers on that?

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During the campaign it was always slightly unclear what aspect of the

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Australian-style points-based system was being proposed. When people talk

:14:08.:14:11.

about points systems they are often talking about a system that would

:14:12.:14:14.

allow people to come in without a job offer, based on their

:14:15.:14:18.

characteristics, like their education or a language ability and

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so forth. So that was actually a slightly surprising choice for a

:14:22.:14:25.

country that is trying to reduce levels of immigration.

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Because you don't think it would have reduced levels of immigration

:14:29.:14:31.

because it doesn't seem to have done under our current points-based

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system, does it? If you can come without a job offer, as long as you

:14:35.:14:38.

satisfy the measures or requirements, you can still come in.

:14:39.:14:42.

There are in theory ways of designing a points-based system that

:14:43.:14:45.

would restrict immigration but a work permit system can do that as

:14:46.:14:49.

well. I would agree that in some ways what is more important is how

:14:50.:14:54.

you design the system of criteria of who gets to come in and based on

:14:55.:14:57.

what skills, rather than whether it is a points-based system or a work

:14:58.:15:00.

permit system. Why has Theresa May come out so

:15:01.:15:04.

strongly against the points-based system?

:15:05.:15:06.

The points based systems that have had some problems in countries where

:15:07.:15:09.

they have been permitted. One of the issues that comes up is if people

:15:10.:15:12.

come in without a job offer then there is no guarantee, even if they

:15:13.:15:15.

have relatively high levels of education, there is no guarantee

:15:16.:15:27.

that they will get a job and that has been a problem that has been

:15:28.:15:29.

experienced in some countries that have used the systems and also the

:15:30.:15:32.

UK which had a similar system under the last government. Do you accept

:15:33.:15:35.

it was a flawed system? It wouldn't have actually achieved what you and

:15:36.:15:37.

your colleagues wanted, which was to dramatically reduce immigration

:15:38.:15:39.

numbers. We have always said we are not looking to cut and paste the

:15:40.:15:42.

same system they have in Australia and use it here but the reality is

:15:43.:15:45.

we can take the strong points, the strong elements of points systems

:15:46.:15:49.

such as the ones they use in Australia, or look to other

:15:50.:15:52.

countries as well. As I say, the crucial thing is control over the

:15:53.:15:56.

overall numbers and being able to refuse entry to people if we deem

:15:57.:15:58.

that appropriate. Are you worried, though, that

:15:59.:16:07.

Theresa May is going soft, if you like, on the issue of immigration so

:16:08.:16:11.

soon after the Brexit vote, and she will not deliver the reduced numbers

:16:12.:16:16.

that you wanted to see? I really don't believe she is going soft on

:16:17.:16:20.

immigration, I think this is absolutely central to what she wants

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to do, and even before watching wanted to do before the Brexit vote.

:16:24.:16:26.

Except she failed at every single point to bring down net migration to

:16:27.:16:30.

the tens of thousands that was introduced as a policy by David

:16:31.:16:34.

Cameron. One of the reason she could not do that was because of our EU

:16:35.:16:38.

membership, and it becomes a most impossible to make that commitment

:16:39.:16:40.

in our manifesto while we retain free movement in its current form.

:16:41.:16:45.

Although the points-based system for non-EU migrants did not dramatically

:16:46.:16:48.

or consistently reduce the number of non-EU migrants, did it? You can

:16:49.:16:54.

design it to reduce them as if you wish to. Doesn't that hit the point,

:16:55.:17:00.

whether it is points-based or whether it is work permit and these

:17:01.:17:04.

are based, or you have to have a firm job offer from an employer, if

:17:05.:17:08.

it reduces the numbers, she will be fulfilling what people voted for

:17:09.:17:12.

when they voted to leave the EU? Carina let's be clear what people

:17:13.:17:17.

voted for, people like Theresa May went around country and said ?350

:17:18.:17:25.

million extra for the NHS, they said no VAT on fuel, nothing from the

:17:26.:17:28.

Prime Minister on that, they said you would get the Australian

:17:29.:17:30.

points-based system, she is just saying that is not going to happen.

:17:31.:17:35.

Three broken promises already. Does it matter about the Australian

:17:36.:17:39.

-based system if the numbers are registered? They went around saying

:17:40.:17:44.

it will solve all our problems, the Australian points-based system. I

:17:45.:17:48.

never denied that immigration poses challenges for us, not just

:17:49.:17:51.

economically but in terms of the cultural make-up, I never went

:17:52.:17:55.

around pretending that somehow this Australian points-based system was

:17:56.:17:57.

going to be the silver bullet that would sort out all our problems.

:17:58.:18:01.

They did, and other chickens are coming home to roost. I am so

:18:02.:18:04.

puzzled by this. It was not like they were not told about this,

:18:05.:18:10.

beforehand. Who is they? The different boat Leave campaigners,

:18:11.:18:15.

Priti Patel, Boris Johnson, they talked about it as the magic

:18:16.:18:19.

solution. That is not what that system does. What they have done in

:18:20.:18:25.

Australia is almost used that to promote immigration. 28% of people

:18:26.:18:28.

in Australia were born out of the country, double the percentage of

:18:29.:18:32.

our own country. We don't have to have the same system as Australia,

:18:33.:18:36.

hang on a second. This is a bit about a raid, but can I just go back

:18:37.:18:42.

to the point. Chuka, when you say it was the solution to all of our

:18:43.:18:46.

problems. What Theresa May has said is that she has heard loud and clear

:18:47.:18:50.

that voters want to reduce the numbers. She didn't say by any

:18:51.:18:53.

specific system, she wants to reduce the numbers. It may be that the

:18:54.:18:58.

points-based system is not the way to do it but if you agree that there

:18:59.:19:01.

needs to be a way to reduce the numbers of immigrants coming in? I

:19:02.:19:05.

think we need to look at numbers, I have never denied that, but we also

:19:06.:19:09.

have to have a debate about what happens when people come to our

:19:10.:19:13.

country, how do we integrate them? We have got the High Commissioner

:19:14.:19:16.

from Australia coming in today to talk to us about this Australian

:19:17.:19:19.

points-based system, but we have to have both of those debates. There is

:19:20.:19:22.

an opportunity here for the Prime Minister, because part of the reason

:19:23.:19:26.

I thought we have to stay in the European Union is because membership

:19:27.:19:29.

of the single market is vital, absolutely vital. Hang on,

:19:30.:19:34.

membership of the single market, as Theresa May has said, she is not

:19:35.:19:38.

going to sign up to, if it means freedom of movement. And isn't the

:19:39.:19:41.

point of the vote, rightly or wrongly, that freedom of movement

:19:42.:19:46.

ends? Do you access to that? As we know it. I except that freedom of

:19:47.:19:52.

movement as we know it, the public, the people have spoken on that

:19:53.:19:57.

issue. I except what they have said. But this is the opportunity for her,

:19:58.:20:00.

because the circle she has got to square is that we want the fullest

:20:01.:20:03.

access to the single market possible. I don't think she should

:20:04.:20:08.

go, oh, I can't do that, I think she should aim for that. And what she

:20:09.:20:11.

could possibly also do is get our European partners to change the way

:20:12.:20:15.

free movement works in the European Union, in essence ending free

:20:16.:20:18.

movement as we know it because it isn't as if they have not got the

:20:19.:20:23.

same... There doesn't seem to be any issue changing fundamentally the

:20:24.:20:29.

movement Bosch free movement. Francois Hollande will go off

:20:30.:20:32.

against Marie Le Pen, likely, she will make that the issue. In Germany

:20:33.:20:37.

and Italy it will happen. She should be ambitious. You have accepted

:20:38.:20:44.

freedom of movement must end. As we know it. Madeleine, in terms of the

:20:45.:20:48.

system you could bring in, what would deliver and radically reduce

:20:49.:20:51.

them as of immigrants coming into the UK? Would it be a Visa or a work

:20:52.:20:57.

permit system? The most common system for controlling work-related

:20:58.:21:02.

immigration is a work permit, essentially that enables employers

:21:03.:21:05.

to put in an application to bring in a particular person to fulfil a

:21:06.:21:09.

certain job. The government will set the criteria, saying you can only

:21:10.:21:12.

bring people in if the skills that they have meet a certain threshold,

:21:13.:21:17.

or if the job meets various different criteria. You can make

:21:18.:21:19.

that system more or less restrictive and it will affect the number people

:21:20.:21:23.

who would be about to come into the country under it. And you would

:21:24.:21:28.

accept that? You can effectively meet the problems and deal with this

:21:29.:21:32.

issue using a work permit system, yes, that is a legitimate system to

:21:33.:21:36.

use. To tens of thousands, in terms of net migration? It would be

:21:37.:21:41.

possible to deliver that immigration target, I believe, but changes to

:21:42.:21:45.

free movement are not going to deliver that target on their own. We

:21:46.:21:50.

also need to press ahead the reforms we are making to non-EU migration as

:21:51.:21:55.

well. Right, so do you think a work Visa system would deliver net

:21:56.:22:00.

migration down to tens of thousands, or is that unachievable? A work

:22:01.:22:04.

permit system for EU citizens on its own cannot deliver the tens of

:22:05.:22:06.

thousands because there is quite a lot of non-EU immigration. So at the

:22:07.:22:11.

moment it is quite difficult to see what combination of policies would

:22:12.:22:17.

deliver that, but... So you say it is undeliverable? Depends on

:22:18.:22:21.

economic circumstances, it is not just about immigration policy, other

:22:22.:22:26.

things will affect it. We always said during the campaign this is not

:22:27.:22:30.

just about EU immigrants, if you took non-EU immigrants you would not

:22:31.:22:35.

be hitting this. We need a proper national debate about this, British

:22:36.:22:38.

future, the think tanks, have called for that. This target I think is

:22:39.:22:42.

damaging. I think we should have in mind a number. The number would you

:22:43.:22:47.

have in mind? I don't pretend to know the answer to that question,

:22:48.:22:50.

the problem is that you have a target at the moment that every

:22:51.:22:52.

single year the government is failing to meet, which completely

:22:53.:22:56.

undermines trust in the public that we can manage it. Can I just ask

:22:57.:23:03.

Theresa the leaders, should there be an in-built bias towards EU

:23:04.:23:09.

migrants? We are still linked geographically to our EU neighbours,

:23:10.:23:15.

should there be an in-built bias towards EU migrants? At the moment

:23:16.:23:18.

we have a massively unbalanced system, in that EU migrants can come

:23:19.:23:26.

in whatever circumstances. But we have significant restrictions on

:23:27.:23:29.

non-EU migrants. Levelling that out to some degree I think will be

:23:30.:23:33.

important. I think in terms of the compo misers we might have to make,

:23:34.:23:38.

in terms of the negotiations coming up, it would not be completely

:23:39.:23:41.

illegitimate to give a degree of preference for EU nationals, as long

:23:42.:23:46.

as we retain control of the overall numbers and retain the right to

:23:47.:23:49.

refuse individuals couldn't think it is appropriate for them to be

:23:50.:23:54.

allowed to... It is worth paying the price of tariff free access to the

:23:55.:23:58.

single market to make sure those numbers come down dramatically? We

:23:59.:24:02.

will obviously have to make some kind of compromises on this. I don't

:24:03.:24:05.

think we have to move to a system where we treat EU migrants exactly

:24:06.:24:08.

the same as migrants from the rest of the world, but it is clear that

:24:09.:24:12.

we need a system that ends the freefall we have at the moment. That

:24:13.:24:18.

is interesting, because it leads... Theresa just said something that

:24:19.:24:22.

completely surprised me, suggesting that you would like to see the

:24:23.:24:25.

percentage of immigrants net coming in from the EU to be higher, because

:24:26.:24:30.

at the moment it is 50-50, roughly half of the net immigration comes

:24:31.:24:34.

from outside the EU and half Remain side, and new seem to suggest you

:24:35.:24:40.

want more as a percentage slightly coming in from EU. Which I think is

:24:41.:24:44.

interesting. The important thing is that we get immigration down to

:24:45.:24:49.

sustainable levels and we respect the result of the EU referendum.

:24:50.:24:51.

Thank you. Parliament may not have been sitting

:24:52.:24:53.

for the past six weeks or so, but there's been plenty of debate

:24:54.:24:56.

inside Britain's political parties with three of them holding

:24:57.:24:59.

leadership elections Labour's rumbles on, of course,

:25:00.:25:00.

and with Jeremy Corbyn firm favourite to win again,

:25:01.:25:04.

attention is turning to how he'll Should Labour MPs who continue

:25:05.:25:07.

to defy their leader be allowed to stand

:25:08.:25:10.

for the party again - or should they face

:25:11.:25:12.

being de-selected? The question of MPs' selections

:25:13.:25:17.

was one the Labour leader addressed There's going to be, as you know,

:25:18.:25:19.

a total boundary review, of which the first report will be out

:25:20.:25:23.

this autumn and it will be finally If this parliament

:25:24.:25:27.

runs to full term then the new boundaries will be the basis

:25:28.:25:30.

on which elections take place. And on that case,

:25:31.:25:33.

there would be a full selection process in

:25:34.:25:35.

every constituency. But the sitting MP for any part,

:25:36.:25:37.

or any substantial part of the new boundary, would have

:25:38.:25:40.

an opportunity to put their name So there will be a full and open

:25:41.:25:43.

selection process for every Every constituency Labour Party

:25:44.:25:49.

throughout the whole of the Well, David Osland, a long-time

:25:50.:25:52.

Labour member who has written a pamphlet on how to reselect Mps

:25:53.:25:58.

joins us now. Welcome, why are you pushing this

:25:59.:26:12.

agenda now? It is certainly a big issue in the Labour Party at the

:26:13.:26:15.

moment, it lot of people talking about it, and as Jeremy says, not

:26:16.:26:18.

one that the Labour Party can that in the face of the boundary review.

:26:19.:26:23.

So it is a contribution to a topical debate. Right. How politically

:26:24.:26:27.

motivated is it, in the sense that this is an attempt to try to

:26:28.:26:31.

encourage a well of support for getting rid of MPs that the

:26:32.:26:36.

left-wing party member don't like? I am explicitly saying it is not

:26:37.:26:40.

intended as advocacy of the select early, deselect often, kick them

:26:41.:26:46.

out. But I think there are reasonable questions around

:26:47.:26:49.

selection of Labour MPs, for instance where a Labour MP is known

:26:50.:26:54.

to beat his wife, it is possible that his constituency might not

:26:55.:26:58.

favour his return. Where Labour MPs cross picket lines or repeatedly say

:26:59.:27:03.

that they are thinking of resigning the Labour whip, then maybe they

:27:04.:27:06.

don't value of their labour involvements as much as they should.

:27:07.:27:10.

What do you say to that, Chuka Umunna? Are these issues that we

:27:11.:27:14.

should be looking at the selecting MPs? Root I haven't come across many

:27:15.:27:19.

colleagues who have been talking about resigning the whip beating

:27:20.:27:25.

their wives. But I am completely biased, I am an MP, I have an

:27:26.:27:29.

interest but I think the system we have got at the moment is fair. It

:27:30.:27:32.

is one we have used for many years. And actually what will happen during

:27:33.:27:36.

the boundary review, you have a trigger ballot system in respect of

:27:37.:27:40.

sitting MPs and constituencies where we don't have an MP, we have a full

:27:41.:27:45.

selection process. It has been brought up recently and it has not

:27:46.:27:48.

really been on the agenda for much of my time as an MP, I was elected

:27:49.:27:53.

in 2010. But many of your colleagues are worried about being deselected

:27:54.:27:57.

by the change in membership. It has been brought up by people who feel

:27:58.:28:00.

if you have an excellent constituency MP but they are not

:28:01.:28:04.

deemed to be ideal job you're sitting on the right place in the

:28:05.:28:07.

broad spectrum that is our wonderful Labour Party that they should be

:28:08.:28:11.

punished for not sitting in the right ideological place, in spite of

:28:12.:28:14.

the fact they are an excellent MP with deselection. I think that would

:28:15.:28:19.

be a great shame. If you have somebody who is a good constituency

:28:20.:28:22.

MP who might not always share the view of the leadership, and I

:28:23.:28:26.

definitely want robots, I think that was one of the problems under new

:28:27.:28:29.

Labour. I think Jeremy Corbyn is a fantastic example. He has been a

:28:30.:28:37.

backbench MP, very critical of the leadership and seven leaders from

:28:38.:28:39.

Callaghan through to Miliband forced up the campaign to have one of them

:28:40.:28:42.

removed, Neil Kinnock, he has defied the whip more than ?500, putting

:28:43.:28:47.

more than 200 times with the Tories and was never any attempt that final

:28:48.:28:51.

at all to deselect him because of that. Partly because he is seen as a

:28:52.:28:57.

good constituency MP. Isn't that fair enough, why should membership

:28:58.:29:01.

be able to get rid of MPs, or encouraged to get rid of MPs that

:29:02.:29:05.

don't share the views of Jeremy Corbyn and the leadership? The first

:29:06.:29:09.

point is that members don't get rid of MPs, that is the job for the

:29:10.:29:13.

electorate. Their job is to select who they want to see as a Labour

:29:14.:29:18.

candidate. But should they be people who always agree with the

:29:19.:29:22.

leadership? I haven't heard of anyone arguing that at the moment.

:29:23.:29:27.

As Chuka says, we have many excellent MPs and nobody would want

:29:28.:29:31.

to get rid of their MP. Many Labour MPs have come on saying they have

:29:32.:29:34.

been threatened with deselection because they do not agree on certain

:29:35.:29:39.

issues and policies with Jeremy Corbyn. In fairness, maybe in

:29:40.:29:47.

David's offence Burke defence, many are not members of the Labour Party,

:29:48.:29:51.

they are members of the task or the Socialist workers party, not

:29:52.:29:53.

activist in our constituency parties. They are the ones that

:29:54.:29:58.

often put it on the agenda, but to come back to David, I think if you

:29:59.:30:01.

have got the example of a member of Parliament who has been beating

:30:02.:30:07.

their wife, the current trigger ballot process allows for that

:30:08.:30:12.

person not to be selected next time around. What I am unconvinced, of

:30:13.:30:16.

course you have to have somebody commanding confidence among their

:30:17.:30:19.

members, but I don't see where in the system that we have currently

:30:20.:30:22.

got that there is not provision for somebody in that circumstance to be

:30:23.:30:28.

removed. Precisely what I am trying to do in the pamphlet, set out the

:30:29.:30:32.

rules as they stand. Why are you doing it now, not a couple of years

:30:33.:30:37.

ago? Why the need to do it now? If we have been happy that the process

:30:38.:30:41.

has been OK for the last couple of decades, then why start setting it

:30:42.:30:42.

out now? As I said, the process is in the

:30:43.:30:50.

rule book and has been largely unaltered. Why now? With the

:30:51.:30:55.

boundary changes, of course, many constituencies will have to go

:30:56.:30:58.

through that whether they like it or not. There are the issues of MPs who

:30:59.:31:05.

are behaving in a very bad ways, getting into drunken brawls in House

:31:06.:31:12.

of Commons bars. But Eric Joyce is perhaps the example of that. There

:31:13.:31:21.

was no need to change the process in order four Eric Knott end up in that

:31:22.:31:24.

constituency which Falkirk, ironically. -- not to end up.

:31:25.:31:31.

Many MPs do not have confidence in Jeremy Corbyn as leader. Is that a

:31:32.:31:37.

problem? The Labour leadership has changed and changed dramatically and

:31:38.:31:43.

they want to have MPs that uphold the beliefs and policies and values

:31:44.:31:46.

they hold dear, many of which they share with Jeremy Corbyn, shouldn't

:31:47.:31:51.

the MPs reflect that? I think we do share the same values. Clearly you

:31:52.:31:54.

don't because you don't have confidence in Jeremy Corbyn. A lot

:31:55.:31:58.

of that has to do with competence and other issues. Hands on the

:31:59.:32:02.

table, I nominated Owen Smith. But a lot of people who were in the Shadow

:32:03.:32:06.

Cabinet have highlighted the reason why has been it has been difficult

:32:07.:32:11.

to do our job over the last few months. Is it sustainable for one of

:32:12.:32:14.

those Labour MPs who don't have the confidence in Jeremy Corbyn? If they

:32:15.:32:18.

can convince their membership that they should be reselected and come

:32:19.:32:24.

through the ballot process surely they should. Do you think they will

:32:25.:32:28.

convince them? In the majority of cases I think they probably will but

:32:29.:32:33.

in some cases I think reselection is will happen.

:32:34.:32:35.

Anyone in particular you can think of who might be reselected for not

:32:36.:32:38.

representing the views of the membership?

:32:39.:32:41.

It's not for me to say to activists in other constituencies Dunne

:32:42.:32:48.

constituents' parties. I'm represented by Diane Abbott and on

:32:49.:32:52.

the membership membership are very happy with her.

:32:53.:32:55.

She's very much in line with Jeremy Corbyn, isn't she?

:32:56.:32:58.

And she's an excellent local MP with a strong base in the community.

:32:59.:33:03.

I think that is the case amongst the overwhelming majority of Labour MPs.

:33:04.:33:07.

I just think, I sit here and I'm just dismayed and disappointed

:33:08.:33:11.

frankly, because what's lying behind what Dave's doing here is kind of

:33:12.:33:15.

like a threat. And that is not the way that we do things in the Labour

:33:16.:33:19.

Party. I've been an activist in my local Labour Party for the best part

:33:20.:33:23.

of 20 years and I have never known this kind of atmosphere, certainly

:33:24.:33:28.

whipped up nationally, of threats, of intimidation, we're going to get

:33:29.:33:32.

rid of you. That's the underlying reason, let's be honest. I think

:33:33.:33:36.

it's a bit rich for something like 170 Labour MPs... Hang on. To

:33:37.:33:44.

undermine the leadership, to talk of divisiveness in the context where

:33:45.:33:49.

170 Labour MPs have tried to undermine the leader that the

:33:50.:33:51.

membership have voted for when the deputy leadership of the Labour

:33:52.:33:56.

Party is circulating bogus momentum documents to start talking about

:33:57.:33:59.

threats and divisiveness is a bit rich, isn't it, Chuka Umunna?

:34:00.:34:08.

Divisiveness has come out of Momentum before but I've spoken

:34:09.:34:13.

about it before. This shows how divisive and chaotic the situation

:34:14.:34:17.

in Labour is and the lurch to the left is also illustrated by this. I

:34:18.:34:21.

think that's very bad for this country.

:34:22.:34:24.

Well, it depends what Tory MPs... They would say that and no doubt

:34:25.:34:27.

they are gleeful about this situation. But doesn't it mean there

:34:28.:34:31.

isn't a challenge to the government while this continues?

:34:32.:34:35.

Michael Liddle party members I am really dismayed to see the state of

:34:36.:34:41.

the party at the polls -- like all Labour Party members. The party has

:34:42.:34:45.

to raise its game and take the fight to the Tories.

:34:46.:34:48.

Let's talk about the Shadow Cabinet elections, because that was going to

:34:49.:34:51.

be talked about this evening at the Parliamentary Labour Party meeting

:34:52.:34:54.

this evening. Now Jeremy Corbyn is calling for members to vote on MPs

:34:55.:34:59.

to Shadow Cabinet. Is that a good idea?

:35:00.:35:04.

I'm open to all ideas on this, actually. Yes or no? Let's have the

:35:05.:35:10.

discussion. The membership idea is a new thing that has appeared today,

:35:11.:35:13.

I'm sure it is completely coincidental we're talking about

:35:14.:35:16.

Shadow Cabinet elections. Jeremy Hunt himself has been a big fan and

:35:17.:35:20.

argued for Shadow Cabinet elections within the parliament we Labour

:35:21.:35:24.

Party in the past -- Jeremy Corbyn. It's something worth looking at. One

:35:25.:35:28.

really important point is I don't think it's just all about the Shadow

:35:29.:35:31.

Cabinet. People could have a really important impact of the front

:35:32.:35:35.

benches and on the front bench. Are deputy leader Tom Watson did an

:35:36.:35:38.

incredible job in terms of press regulation from the backbenches.

:35:39.:35:44.

Sure, but if members get the chance to vote for MPs in the Shadow

:35:45.:35:49.

Cabinet, then you could arguably say that so-called former supporters of

:35:50.:35:52.

Tony Blair and Gordon Brown will not be in the Shadow Cabinet.

:35:53.:35:56.

One of the things I really wish we could get away from our all of these

:35:57.:36:05.

ridiculous Blairites... I'm a Labour ite. But they will not be in the

:36:06.:36:11.

Shadow Cabinet, will they? Let's see, these discussions are

:36:12.:36:14.

interesting. One thing I agree on with Jeremy Corbyn is we need to

:36:15.:36:18.

change the way we do politics and the way that our party operates. A

:36:19.:36:24.

kind of gentler politics? Well... Do you think you've seen that with

:36:25.:36:28.

Jeremy Corbyn? I do not and I think the problem has been more the case

:36:29.:36:31.

of the people around Jeremy Roy other than Jeremy himself. Who are

:36:32.:36:38.

you talking about? John McDonnell? -- Jeremy Corbyn. We've already

:36:39.:36:41.

talked about division on this subject. Do you think members should

:36:42.:36:47.

vote on the Shadow Cabinet? Staffing the Shadow Cabinet has been

:36:48.:36:52.

a problem for Jeremy Corbyn, people like Chuka Umunna refused to

:36:53.:36:56.

serve... That is incorrect, this has been parroted by John McDonnell,

:36:57.:37:00.

Jeremy Corbyn and I had a conversation. We did not want a

:37:01.:37:04.

running commentary between what I was saying and what he was saying.

:37:05.:37:07.

We came to a mutual agreement that I wouldn't serve so it is wrong to say

:37:08.:37:12.

I refused. It is divisive to raise this issue now because it strikes me

:37:13.:37:15.

as a factional manoeuvre designed to get people like John McDonnell. You

:37:16.:37:21.

are not factional, you, Dave? Get them out of the Shadow Cabinet.

:37:22.:37:26.

We're playing hardball. You have said it.

:37:27.:37:31.

David Cameron's cabinet used to be criticised

:37:32.:37:33.

The new Prime Minister, by contrast, is a grammar school

:37:34.:37:39.

girl, and her cabinet is 70% state educated.

:37:40.:37:41.

Theresa May and her Education Secretary haven't

:37:42.:37:43.

ruled out the creation of new State Grammar schools.

:37:44.:37:45.

Here's what she said on the subject in her interview on the Marr

:37:46.:37:48.

Justine Greening was on your programme and said she'd be looking

:37:49.:37:52.

So we will look at the work that Justine is doing.

:37:53.:37:59.

But the abiding theme that I want to ensure is

:38:00.:38:01.

there is that of giving opportunity to young

:38:02.:38:03.

people, of ensuring that

:38:04.:38:04.

whatever school anybody is going to, wherever they are in whatever part

:38:05.:38:07.

We are able to ensure they get a good quality of education that

:38:08.:38:16.

gives them the opportunities to on in life.

:38:17.:38:18.

Well, Theresa May's stance has given hope to those like Don Porter,

:38:19.:38:21.

the founder of Conservative Voice, who have long supported

:38:22.:38:23.

1970s Britain, the age of the comprehensive,

:38:24.:38:33.

brought to life on television in Grange Hill.

:38:34.:38:39.

During this time there was a push to move

:38:40.:38:42.

away from selective education which saw many

:38:43.:38:45.

grammar schools closed, or converted into comprehensives.

:38:46.:38:52.

But the 163 grammar schools that still

:38:53.:38:55.

exist in England regularly top league tables.

:38:56.:38:59.

This school has actually been allowed to expand to a new campus

:39:00.:39:07.

We need to build upon the success of grammar

:39:08.:39:16.

schools and create a system that both develops and promotes young

:39:17.:39:18.

That also means a higher standard of technical education for

:39:19.:39:28.

those students who do not wish to pursue an academic path.

:39:29.:39:33.

But it doesn't mean that everything about

:39:34.:39:35.

the previous system of grammar schools was desirable.

:39:36.:39:39.

I strongly believe that the 11 plus as a one-off test

:39:40.:39:45.

The testing of a child only at the age of 11 was far

:39:46.:39:51.

too restrictive and should now be replaced by multiple opportunities

:39:52.:39:54.

The first wave of new grammar schools should

:39:55.:40:04.

be placed in areas of the country facing social deprivation to show

:40:05.:40:19.

their power as an engine of social mobility.

:40:20.:40:21.

trying to return to a bygone golden age of education.

:40:22.:40:28.

It is about trying to create and build great schools

:40:29.:40:30.

Conservative Voice wants to create a grammar school

:40:31.:40:33.

system fit for the 21st-century and that gives a boost to choice,

:40:34.:40:36.

And Don Porter of Conservative Voice joins us in the studio now.

:40:37.:41:02.

Apart from I totally what evidence is there that grammar schools are

:41:03.:41:09.

these great engines of social mobility.

:41:10.:41:11.

It goes back to the 1960s when the grammar schools were putting far

:41:12.:41:16.

more people into universities. 25% of those people going to university

:41:17.:41:21.

were from working-class backgrounds. But that's the 1960s. What about the

:41:22.:41:25.

ones that remain today? They don't send vast numbers of children from

:41:26.:41:30.

poor backgrounds. The evidence is clearly there. They are stuffed full

:41:31.:41:32.

of middle-class children who could pay privately. Welcome of course,

:41:33.:41:38.

Jo, if you ban something the Labour government did in the 1998, we go

:41:39.:41:44.

down from 1300 grammar schools to 164. Even Tony Blair, in his

:41:45.:41:52.

autobiography, described that process of banning grammar schools

:41:53.:41:55.

as academic vandalism. And there is a strong feeling that even he

:41:56.:42:00.

regretted the way in which that was done. They were abandoned. So we are

:42:01.:42:07.

only looking at 164 grammar schools. You say if there were more of them

:42:08.:42:10.

with more children of poorer backgrounds but even of the

:42:11.:42:14.

proportion of those that exist it is a small proportion. Theresa

:42:15.:42:17.

Villiers, would you like to see more grammar schools? I'm happy with the

:42:18.:42:22.

levels. You don't think you should go back over the policy. The party

:42:23.:42:26.

spent a long time arguing over this and David Cameron made a decision.

:42:27.:42:30.

I'm open to new ideas on this but what is of crucial thing is nothing

:42:31.:42:34.

was done must divert us from trying to make sure every single child has

:42:35.:42:38.

access to a good school place. Whatever sort of school they are in

:42:39.:42:41.

I think it would be a backward step if we went back to some kind of

:42:42.:42:46.

binary divide, age 11, where you separate the sheep from the goats. I

:42:47.:42:50.

think one of the concerns about the previous system was the focus on

:42:51.:42:53.

academic excellence in grammar schools wasn't replicated in the

:42:54.:42:56.

quality of the education that people who didn't get into grammar schools

:42:57.:43:00.

were offered, and that's why we have the position we have at the moment.

:43:01.:43:04.

So it is a distraction from creating better state, hence its schools. You

:43:05.:43:09.

even admitted it in your school. Is completely divisive line taken at 11

:43:10.:43:14.

that can ruin kids' chances. That is precisely why we want to change a

:43:15.:43:20.

system. It is restrictive if a child only has the opportunity at 11 to

:43:21.:43:24.

get to a grammar school. I felt my 11 plus, went to a secondary modern

:43:25.:43:28.

and then went to a grammar school after a levels. For me, going to a

:43:29.:43:34.

grammar school was transformational. You might say, Jo, that was

:43:35.:43:38.

anecdotal. But what is also interesting, Theresa I know has

:43:39.:43:42.

grammar schools in her own constituency. She also said she

:43:43.:43:46.

thinks it would be a backward step. But the point that Tony Blair also

:43:47.:43:50.

makes, which I think is fascinating, is that it is people who are in

:43:51.:43:53.

privileged positions who can send their children to private schools

:43:54.:43:58.

who actually then don't wish to give the same opportunity of aspiration

:43:59.:44:03.

to people who can't afford private school.

:44:04.:44:06.

That is true, Chuka Umunna. This is about giving children from a poor

:44:07.:44:09.

background the opportunity to go to the kind of schools that only people

:44:10.:44:12.

from middle-class families can afford. What about the nine out of

:44:13.:44:16.

ten that don't get to go to the grammar schools? If there were more

:44:17.:44:20.

of them then they would. I think Theresa is right, it would be a

:44:21.:44:23.

backward step at this idea that grammar schools are this great

:44:24.:44:26.

engine for social Mobo the teeth is utter garbage. Most of the pupils

:44:27.:44:30.

who go there are from relatively wealthy middle-class families

:44:31.:44:34.

anyway. Only 3% of grammar school children are on free school meals

:44:35.:44:38.

compared to a national average of 18%. I know from my time as a school

:44:39.:44:43.

governor at a school in my own constituency in Streatham, that the

:44:44.:44:46.

key thing that determines how well the school performance is excellent

:44:47.:44:49.

leadership and good quality teaching. But they are good schools,

:44:50.:44:54.

aren't they? In my constituency? Grammar schools tend to do extremely

:44:55.:44:58.

well and their pupils go on to either extremely good training or

:44:59.:45:00.

university. But again there is all the research

:45:01.:45:04.

that shows if you look at the top streams or sets in comprehensive is,

:45:05.:45:10.

that the higher performing pupils actually do better there than they

:45:11.:45:14.

do in grammar is. The problem with this is it is just so retro. Come

:45:15.:45:20.

on, do we not have new ideas? But there is nothing retro, I know both

:45:21.:45:25.

of you have the privilege of a private education. What is also

:45:26.:45:29.

interesting about those people who have had a private education, they

:45:30.:45:32.

sort of push back when people aspire. Don't you dare... Don't you

:45:33.:45:41.

dare. Aspiration is... Don't you dare just because I went to an

:45:42.:45:44.

independent school I don't want other people to do well.

:45:45.:45:47.

Aspiration is not the sole preserve of those who go to private schools.

:45:48.:45:52.

No one is arguing that. This is nonsense. Also people who can't

:45:53.:45:57.

afford to go to private schools. The point you are making, Jo, I really

:45:58.:46:01.

strongly believe that we need to change next time, and hence we are

:46:02.:46:07.

making the point that the next, or first wave, of new grammar schools

:46:08.:46:12.

should go into areas of severe deprivation. What is to stop

:46:13.:46:15.

middle-class families moving straight into those areas? Because

:46:16.:46:20.

now we know that top state schools, not grammar schools, but top state

:46:21.:46:24.

comprehensive schools, that is what is happening. Those who can afford

:46:25.:46:28.

it move very close by, up go the House prices and immediately the

:46:29.:46:31.

area of social deprivation has changed. I agree with that point,

:46:32.:46:35.

excellent question. It can be decided by controlling the catchment

:46:36.:46:39.

areas of those new 20 grammar schools. If we say 20. That's the

:46:40.:46:43.

sort of number we believe would make a difference and start to

:46:44.:46:46.

demonstrate the point about social mobility. Do you think it would be

:46:47.:46:50.

popular? Do you think people really want it in any large numbers? The

:46:51.:46:55.

last YouGov survey carried out was the early part of last year. 1600

:46:56.:47:01.

and people throughout the country participated in that research and

:47:02.:47:06.

53% of people interviewed actually look forward to the return of

:47:07.:47:10.

grammar schools. And even with Labour voters there were a majority

:47:11.:47:15.

of people who actually wanted the return of grammar schools. Amongst

:47:16.:47:18.

Labour voters? Does that surprise you?

:47:19.:47:22.

If you look at the polls, there is more support for grammar schools

:47:23.:47:29.

than you would think. You keep talking about social mobility and

:47:30.:47:31.

not once during this exchange have you been able to produce any

:47:32.:47:35.

evidence to show that the current system... You mention the 1960s

:47:36.:47:41.

system, promote social mobility. The 1960s model didn't the current one

:47:42.:47:44.

doesn't either. We will have to end it there, thank you for coming in.

:47:45.:47:47.

So MPs are back from their summer hols with their new hair cuts,

:47:48.:47:50.

polished shoes and sun tans - in a moment I'll be asking two

:47:51.:47:53.

seasoned Westminster watchers what work they'll be set

:47:54.:47:55.

in the coming week - first let's have a look

:47:56.:47:58.

David Davis, the new Secretary of State for Exiting

:47:59.:48:01.

the European Union, is expected to make a statement in the House of

:48:02.:48:04.

Tonight, the Parliamentary Labour Party will have its first

:48:05.:48:14.

Backbench MP Clive Betts is expected to put forward a proposal

:48:15.:48:18.

to reintroduce Shadow Cabinet elections, on which a motion

:48:19.:48:20.

Also on Tuesday, the Home Affairs Select Committee is expected to meet

:48:21.:48:34.

to discuss the future of its Chairman Keith Vaz,

:48:35.:48:39.

following allegations about him in a Sunday newspaper.

:48:40.:48:40.

On Wednesday, Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn will meet

:48:41.:48:45.

for the second time across the despatch box

:48:46.:48:47.

BBC Question Time on Thursday evening will host a Labour

:48:48.:48:50.

leadership hustings programme with Jeremy Corbyn and Owen Smith

:48:51.:48:52.

And Thursday is also expected to be the publication day

:48:53.:48:57.

To give it maximum publicity Mr Balls will be appearing

:48:58.:49:05.

The former Shadow Chancellor can also be seen showing off his glitter

:49:06.:49:09.

balls on Strictly Come Dancing on Saturday evenings.

:49:10.:49:15.

I am sure you enjoy the first just a few years ago. -- days ago.

:49:16.:49:21.

We're joined now by Isabel Hardman - Associate Editor of the Spectator -

:49:22.:49:24.

Welcome to both of you, no doubt you were watching on Saturday night too

:49:25.:49:30.

but before we get to that, Brexit means Brexit, OK I have finally said

:49:31.:49:34.

it in the programme. David Davis will set out his vision, will there

:49:35.:49:40.

be any specifics, Isabel Hardman? I suspect this statement David Davis

:49:41.:49:44.

is making is largely so that the government can avoid being summoned

:49:45.:49:47.

to the Commons with an urgent question. Although he may say a

:49:48.:49:50.

little more than Brexit means Brexit, he will not give us a full

:49:51.:49:54.

definition that he wants to put in a dictionary. The government doesn't

:49:55.:49:57.

really know what Brexit means yet. Number ten released a statement

:49:58.:50:01.

after Theresa May dismissed the points-based immigration system

:50:02.:50:03.

saying that the government does not yet have a plan for controlling

:50:04.:50:06.

immigration, and for that to be released by an attention is

:50:07.:50:09.

everything still very much in the air. David Davis, even if he has

:50:10.:50:13.

avoided an urgent question, will get lots of hostile questions from his

:50:14.:50:17.

backbenchers, spent the summer agitated about this. Do you think he

:50:18.:50:21.

will get a rough ride or will they be more emollient in this first

:50:22.:50:26.

outing? As far as I can tell, that section of the Conservative Party

:50:27.:50:29.

that was always very aggressive towards David Cameron and very

:50:30.:50:33.

critical of the last regime, as they call it, on Brexit, is behaving

:50:34.:50:37.

itself quite well. They want to support this Theresa May project,

:50:38.:50:40.

and that section of the Conservative Party has always followed the same

:50:41.:50:46.

strategy, good cop, bad cop, tried to demand concessions then play

:50:47.:50:49.

loyal for a little bit. They will want to ratchet Theresa May towards

:50:50.:50:53.

a harder Brexit position over time. I don't think there will be angry,

:50:54.:50:59.

rough scenes but ultimately you need answers to really big questions and

:51:00.:51:02.

the two ones being, is Britain going to stay in the single market? Is

:51:03.:51:07.

Britain going to essentially remove itself from free movement of labour?

:51:08.:51:11.

How do those two ambitions it together because everyone else in

:51:12.:51:14.

the European Union will say if you want to be in the single market you

:51:15.:51:17.

pay into the European budget and you keep free movement. David Davis just

:51:18.:51:21.

doesn't have the answers to those questions now, Theresa May hasn't

:51:22.:51:25.

was her personal view. She doesn't want to announce a because it is

:51:26.:51:29.

part of a negotiating strategy. It will be playing a dead bat, I'm

:51:30.:51:35.

sure. I am sure it will be for today but aren't we in the position now,

:51:36.:51:39.

Isabel Hardman, where Theresa May has implied that controlling the

:51:40.:51:43.

UK's borders will be paramount, more important than gaining some sort of

:51:44.:51:48.

tariff free access to the single market? And, therefore, are they not

:51:49.:51:51.

looking at a cost that will have to be paid in order to get that access

:51:52.:51:56.

so there isn't freedom of movement? She was very clear in her interview

:51:57.:51:59.

on the Andrew Marr Show, that this was a message made by the British

:52:00.:52:04.

people and the government had to abide by that. I suppose if we have

:52:05.:52:08.

had anything more than Brexit means Brexit, she has said Brexit means

:52:09.:52:12.

controls on immigration. Dismissing the points-based system is also

:52:13.:52:15.

disappointing for those in the leave who used it as part of their

:52:16.:52:18.

campaigning tactic, to say they wanted control, but they didn't

:52:19.:52:21.

naturally want to reduce the numbers that much, if you look at the

:52:22.:52:25.

details. She clearly believes in the juicing the numbers and she believes

:52:26.:52:30.

that is what voters were demanding that their Brexit vote. Let's turn

:52:31.:52:34.

to Labour, the PLP, Parliamentary Labour Party meeting tonight, the

:52:35.:52:40.

first one after recess. I presume Labour MPs will accept there will be

:52:41.:52:45.

a Jeremy Corbyn victory in this leadership? I don't know anyone who

:52:46.:52:47.

is seriously expecting anything else. Some have talked up the

:52:48.:52:52.

chances of Owen Smith, and there have been surprises in politics

:52:53.:52:56.

recently but broadly speaking the Parliamentary Labour Party is sort

:52:57.:52:59.

of preparing itself for the next round of trench warfare with the

:53:00.:53:03.

leadership. And part of that will be hoping Owen Smith manages to hold to

:53:04.:53:10.

a relatively close contest. Ultimately, the broad parameters of

:53:11.:53:15.

this conflict that 170 odd Labour MPs say basically don't have

:53:16.:53:18.

confidence in the leadership of the Labour Party, he will be reinstated

:53:19.:53:23.

by the membership. That is two parties in essence, one who think

:53:24.:53:27.

the leader is a disaster who could not be recommended to the country as

:53:28.:53:31.

a Prime Minister, and the others who think he is completely brilliant or

:53:32.:53:34.

despise the MPs enough that they want to keep him there. It is hard

:53:35.:53:38.

to know how that goes forward. How do you think it goes forward, Isabel

:53:39.:53:43.

Hardman? Will there be another Labour leadership contest then?

:53:44.:53:47.

There is a group of Labour MPs who think the good thing to do is to

:53:48.:53:51.

have a perpetual challenge against Jeremy Corbyn to make his leadership

:53:52.:53:55.

unsustainable, but they accept it could destroy the party as they do

:53:56.:53:59.

that. They think Corbyn is just throwing the party anyway, but it is

:54:00.:54:03.

a very high risk strategy. You have Ed Balls advocating a return to the

:54:04.:54:06.

front bench after Jeremy Corbyn has been elected, which I find difficult

:54:07.:54:11.

to imagine why any Labour backbencher, like Chuka Umunna, who

:54:12.:54:14.

can get more air time not on the front bench with their own airtime

:54:15.:54:19.

would want to -- their own views would want to return to the front

:54:20.:54:23.

benches. I promise you there will be time to discuss it on another

:54:24.:54:26.

occasion but I have to leave it there.

:54:27.:54:27.

Now - let's go back to the G20 summit in China -

:54:28.:54:30.

because in the last half hour Theresa May has been speaking

:54:31.:54:33.

to journalists there - let's have a listen to what she had

:54:34.:54:36.

She was asked how she intended to restrict immigration was still

:54:37.:54:42.

getting a good trade deal with the EU.

:54:43.:54:44.

for the best deal for the United Kingdom.

:54:45.:54:47.

Yes, the voters' message on 23rd June was clearly that

:54:48.:54:50.

they didn't want to see free movement continuing as it has done

:54:51.:54:53.

They wanted some control in movement of people

:54:54.:54:56.

from the European Union into the United Kingdom.

:54:57.:54:58.

But we also want to get the best deal possible for trade

:54:59.:55:01.

And I intend to go out there and be ambitious.

:55:02.:55:05.

And I think there is a benefit, not just for the United

:55:06.:55:08.

Kingdom, of a good deal in trade in goods and services, but a benefit

:55:09.:55:11.

Right, she is feeling confident and optimistic. She would say that at

:55:12.:55:16.

this particular stage, but realistically she is not going to be

:55:17.:55:21.

ever to get both, is she? Let's see, I think she should be ambitious, I

:55:22.:55:25.

think she should aim high, which is the fullest access to the single

:55:26.:55:29.

market possible, and see if she can get them to reform the way free

:55:30.:55:32.

movement works of it is not as we know it. Aim high. Do you think

:55:33.:55:37.

Chuka has a point? I think getting both is to liberal. -- is

:55:38.:55:45.

deliverable. In terms of access to the single market, it is in terms of

:55:46.:55:51.

the interest of the remaining EU and our interest to have a good trading

:55:52.:55:55.

relationship. It is in no 1's interest to start working up

:55:56.:56:00.

tariffs. Are you worried about the warnings from Japan about pulling

:56:01.:56:03.

out companies are they can't get her free access to the European market?

:56:04.:56:07.

I was struck by what the Japanese ambassador said to the today

:56:08.:56:10.

programme about the crucial importance of making a success of

:56:11.:56:14.

the Brexit process. That is the reality, they don't want to disrupt

:56:15.:56:21.

the ability of German manufacturers... You should be

:56:22.:56:23.

worried. We will see how that unfolds.

:56:24.:56:26.

Now - Britain's politicians may not have been in Westminster but they've

:56:27.:56:29.

no doubt been spending the summer contemplating our place

:56:30.:56:31.

But what blue sky have they done their thinking under?

:56:32.:56:36.

Ellie's here to see if Chuka and Theresa can put the politician's

:56:37.:56:39.

Thank you, Jo. Boris Johnson, Theresa, I will ask you, a busy man,

:56:40.:56:52.

where did he go on holiday? I know he once went on holiday to Canada,

:56:53.:56:56.

Dennehy would do that again this year? Greece. Knight he knew it.

:56:57.:57:05.

Next, we have our new Prime Minister, Theresa May, she did take

:57:06.:57:10.

some time off but where did she go? She went to Switzerland. That's easy

:57:11.:57:16.

because she goes every year, doesn't she? Next we have Tim Farron, where

:57:17.:57:22.

did he go? I thought that might fox both of you. Did he stay? He went to

:57:23.:57:33.

Spain. Good choice, I was there too. Jeremy Corbyn, he has had a busy

:57:34.:57:38.

summer, going to have to hurry. The UK. That is because he didn't

:57:39.:57:43.

actually have a holiday. Poor man. Guess, apparently colleagues were

:57:44.:57:47.

cross, where you cross that he took a holiday in the run-up to the

:57:48.:57:51.

referendum? Don't answer that. We have George Osborne, he had a bit

:57:52.:57:54.

more time on his hands, where did he go? Ho Chi Minh city, he was spotted

:57:55.:58:07.

firing guns there. David Cameron, remember him? He was Greece as well,

:58:08.:58:16.

wasn't he? Corsica. He did go on several holidays, and the Sun

:58:17.:58:19.

reported that he and his family holidayed in a luxury villa with a

:58:20.:58:27.

private beach, granny flat, Poole and Wi-Fi. -- swimming pool. He has

:58:28.:58:29.

a lot of time on his hands. Davis is up in the House of Commons

:58:30.:58:46.

this afternoon and I will be back at noon tomorrow with all of the big

:58:47.:58:50.

political stories of the day, so make sure you join me then. From all

:58:51.:58:51.

of us, goodbye. The one o'clock news is starting

:58:52.:58:53.

over on BBC One now. Get your flags ready and join

:58:54.:59:01.

Juan Diego Florez and many more for the world-famous

:59:02.:59:09.

last night of the Proms.

:59:10.:59:13.

Jo Coburn is joined by former Northern Ireland secretary Theresa Villiers and Labour MP Chuka Umunna. They discuss the prime minister's comments on immigration and the latest on the allegations surrounding Keith Vaz.


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