08/09/2016 Daily Politics


08/09/2016

Jo Coburn is joined by Ed Balls to discuss Theresa May's plans to expand grammar schools, the multi-billion pound restoration of Parliament and the state of the Labour Party.


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Graham Brady Glitter. Graham Brady Glitter.

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Hello and welcome to The Daily Politics.

:00:37.:00:38.

Theresa May confirms she'd like to end the ban on new grammar

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schools in England - but can selection by ability really

:00:44.:00:45.

MPs and peers are being told they should move out of parliament

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for six years, so it can undergo a ?4 billion makeover -

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is it a price worth paying to preserve this

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Parliament's pooches battle it out to be crowned Westminster Dog

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of the Year - who will be top dog this year?

:01:06.:01:08.

He and his party were rejected by voters at last years general

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He and his party were rejected by voters at last year's general

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election - will Ed "Glitter" Balls have more appeal

:01:20.:01:21.

in the Strictly Ballroom - because he's been allowed

:01:22.:01:38.

to escape from his dancing partner Katya's grasp.

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With us for the next hour is Ed "Glitter" Balls.

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Show was one of your moves, quickly? We will have more of that later!

:01:46.:02:02.

Last night, Theresa May started her push for more

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grammar schools in England, after a civil servant

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was photographed outside Downing Street with papers proposing

:02:09.:02:10.

Talking to Conservative MPs, the Prime Minister said

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she would not "turn the clock back", but she insisted that there

:02:16.:02:17.

is already selection in the system based on the ability of parents

:02:18.:02:20.

afford the house prices close to good schools.

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The options are expected to be laid out in a Department for Education

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green paper next week, and Theresa May insisted last night

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the policy would create a "21st century education system"

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Among the options being considered is setting up new grammar schools

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in areas where there is demand for them.

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Existing grammar schools, such as those in Kent

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and Greater Manchester, could be expanded.

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And free schools could be allowed to introduce selection as part

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But the Prime Minister may face a rocky road if she wants

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to get her plans passed in Parliament, with opposition

:02:49.:02:51.

to grammar schools amongst her own MPs, and both Labour

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and the Liberal Democrats condemned such a move last night.

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And opponents in the House of Lords will be less inclined to let it

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pass, as increasing selection in education was not part

:03:01.:03:02.

of the last Conservative election manifesto.

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Well, earlier, the Education Secretary, Justine Greening,

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was called to answer an urgent question on grammar

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schools in the Commons - here's what she had to say.

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There will be no return to the simplistic, binary choice of the

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past, where schools separate children into winners and losers,

:03:26.:03:31.

successes or failures. We want to build on our success since 2010 and

:03:32.:03:35.

to create a truly 21st century schools system. But we want a system

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which can cater for the talent and abilities of every single child. To

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achieve that, we need a truly diverse range of schools and

:03:44.:03:49.

specialisms. This policy will not help social mobility, Mr Speaker. It

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will entrench inequality and disadvantage. It will be the lucky

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few who can afford the tuition, who will get ahead, and the

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disadvantaged who will be left behind. A policy for the few at the

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expense of the many. And we're joined now by the Chairman

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of the 1922 Committee of Conservative MPs,

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Graham Brady, who is a strong Ed Balls is a former Labour

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Education Secretary. What did to reason may tell you and your

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colleagues last night? I never two on what happens in those meetings.

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You go ahead. I think I can confirm that reports have been quite

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accurate. Essentially, what she said is that there are lots of different

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types of schools now, we have a diverse schools sector, which I

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strongly support and have always been behind. But it seems very odd

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that if somebody comes to government with a proposal for a new school

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which is select, even though we know that can work and it is very popular

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in communities, it is currently illegal to allow it. So, dropping

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that ban I think is really the key to opening up an even more diverse

:05:02.:05:07.

sector, and it will raise standards and it will improve social

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modernity. We will test that in a moment. Of what does an element of

:05:10.:05:13.

selection actually mean? If we are not going back to the binary choice,

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as Justine Greening said, with grammar schools and successes and

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failures, what is an element of selection? The crucial thing is that

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back in the 1960s, what went wrong was not the grammar schools, it was

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the secondary moderns. Typically they were not very good schools. So

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you would like to go back to that binary system, actually? In

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Manchester, we have a completely selective system. But it is not

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binary and it is certainly not a choice between success and failure.

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All of the schools in my constituency are outstanding

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schools. The high schools as well as the grammar schools. So what is the

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element of selection? It would be either allowing some completely

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selective schools, or allowing some partial selection. Right, so there

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would be some holy selective schools? I do not really understand

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what it means, partial selection, but it seems to me that you would

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make a certain number of places available for selection, let's say

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30%, and then there would be pupils getting tutored to get into those,

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and the rest would be in a catchment area, where people would buy

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themselves into that catchment area. In what way will that help

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disadvantaged people? You have already heard the news today, it is

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A2 billion pounds industry, tutoring people through secondary education.

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So something clearly is not going right. Something can be done better.

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There are some very good country hands of schools and areas. There

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are also things which can be delivered by selective schools. Why

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would you want to emulate that, if you're criticising the idea that in

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secondary education, people are being tutored? No, I'm saying,

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tutoring people throughout their secondary education. That is about

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standards not being good enough in those schools. But do you accept

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that is what would happen? If you had a new school where partial

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selection was in place, let's say in an area where there is a social

:07:05.:07:07.

amount of social deprivation, you would have 30% of places for which

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there would be unbelievably stiff competition, and everyone would be

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tutored, and it would only be those who could afford the expensive

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tuition? What happens in many companies in areas, you've got

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selection by house price. All the places are open to the catchment

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area... In selected areas, people can pass the exam and get into the

:07:30.:07:35.

school. Now, there is too much tutoring, far more than when I went

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to grammar school. But if we had more grammar schools, then the

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competition for those places would be less intense, and there will be

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less call for that kind of tutoring. Do you agree with this? I don't full

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stop there are mistakes in politics which you find out about afterwards,

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and mistakes which you see happening as they are happening. Theresa May

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is making a big mistake here. Graham Brady has consistently supported

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this policy and he has been ignored by past Conservative education

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secretaries and prime ministers, going back to Margaret Thatcher.

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Because it is both bad education policy and bad politics and. But

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they are good schools, aren't they? The issue is, what happens to the

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children of working class kids, and middle-class children, and get told

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at 11, you are second-best. What we know from the evidence, because I

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was Education Secretary, is that grammar schools tend to be

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disproportionately for more affluent children, but the kids who go to the

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secondary modern school underperform in those schools relative to other

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country hands of schools in other parts of the country, cause they

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have been told at 11 they are second-best. There are some

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brilliant secondary modern schools, fabulously lead, in challenging

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circumstances, because they've been told their children are going to

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underperform. Telling kids at 11, they're second-best, does not work

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for the majority of kids and parents in your constituency who are told

:09:05.:09:08.

they are second-best. First of all, that is not true. If you look at the

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high schools in traffic, they get better results than ordinary

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comprehensive schools in more affluent areas. Kids who go to

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secondary modern schools underperform military to those who

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don't. There are a great number of secondary modern schools who bought

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perform other schools. . I agree with that. There will be opposition

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on your own side as well, and there always has been, which is why you

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have struggled to get this back on the agenda. How are you going to

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deal with it? We have got Sir Michael Wilshaw, chief Inspector of

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Schools, who basically said, the notion that people will benefit from

:09:49.:09:52.

the return of grammar schools is, too! And nonsense and is clearly

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refuted by the London experience. He's talking about the state system

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in London which does rather well compared to the rest of the country.

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We also had the former leader of the Liberal Democrats, Nick Clegg,

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saying that you are forcing your prejudices on people. What do you

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say to that? Quite the reserve. The important thing but it is not forced

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prejudice, it is not telling people what they must do. What we have had

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for 18 years is a law which says, even if a community wants a grammar

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school, it is not allowed to have it. Be opinion poll evidence

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suggests 75% of people in this country want more grammar schools.

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Last year I think it was ComRes which did poll and said that the

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supporters of every major political party would like more grammar

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schools. The majority of Labour Party members included. Which was

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interesting, and that was a statistic used earlier this week but

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I think it was 45%, actually, not a majority but still a high number.

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The point is, if people want them, and if they are in areas where there

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are not any other good schools, or maybe only one other, why shouldn't

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parents be given a choice? Why not let them decide? What you have to

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decide is, what is going to be the best for the most able children and

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for all children? Of course it's the case that if you start out thinking

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your child is going to get to the grammar school, and you think that

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may advantage them, fingers crossed, let's hope that will be great. The

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problem is, if it does not work out that way. There is a really good

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column by Simon Jenkins in the Guardian. A Conservative

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commentator, who said, there is a really good reason why Margaret

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Thatcher, who was probably somebody that Graham Brady revered, did not

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expand grammar schools. She knew in the end, middle-class parents who

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start out thinking it is a good idea before the 11 plus discover that it

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is a bad idea when their kids are told they're second-best at 11. They

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are some children who do really well at seven, some who really come on

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when they are 13 or 14. Why should they have three years being told

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they are second-best. How is that good education? Nobody will tell

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them they're second-best, absolutely not. If they go to one of the high

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schools in my constituency... Outside of your constituency...

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There is a case... Good for you. We should try to learn from that,

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surely. We certainly should not ban what works in one constituency. I

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have experience in Kent and in Gloucestershire, also selective

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areas, where you have some brilliantly led secondary modern

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schools, doing really good things in very challenging circumstances, but

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the reality was, they did not manage to deliver the results that were

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being delivered, as Jo was saying, by the best country hands if in

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areas like Hackney and Tower Hamlets, because they are tied to

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expectations, and what happens to teaching as a consequence? It is

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something for which these kids never recover. But it is not being

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imposed, is it? That's the difference. The ban was imposed,

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which is what Graham Brady is objecting. This is not imposing a

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system, this is allowing more choice, and more choice in areas

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where they do need more schools. The difficulty would be in areas of

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social deprivation, and it's always difficult to tailor a system to be

:13:11.:13:14.

perfect, but do you not think it would be a good idea to even look at

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the option Enyeama parent and I'm living in an area where things

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expand, or where it is introduced for the first time, and I don't want

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my child to be told, your second class at 11 if you fail the test.

:13:27.:13:31.

Where is my choice? If there are other good schools in the area,

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presumably greying is saying that the competition would improve all of

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the schools. The problem is, the statistics do not bear out what you

:13:39.:13:42.

say just if you look at the figures from the Institute for Fiscal

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Studies, about how many children there are at current grammar schools

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who are on free school meals... 3%, 7% in Sutton, 9% in boxing. That's a

:13:54.:14:00.

very perilous proportion. Disproportion in more affluent

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areas. If we spread them all, certainly if we get them into more

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deprived areas, those statistics will change. But do you accept, that

:14:07.:14:11.

is a failure? They have not actually allowed social mobility to any great

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extent, if you are looking at those percentages? I think they still do.

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I do not want to get hung up just on free school meals figures. If you

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look at average earnings, there are a lot of people doing really well

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and getting great opportunities through selective systems. One thing

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Ed is missing is that everywhere there is a selection at the moment,

:14:31.:14:35.

it is hugely ocular. People can get rid of it if they don't like it.

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Everywhere it exists, people love it and can see it working. And the

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other thing is, there is already selection. We pull our already

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tutoring their children, even if they are going through the state

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system. Or buying expensive properties to be in a catchment

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area. -- people are already tutoring. . I think you have to be

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careful and not to take a London centric view. In a large part of the

:15:01.:15:03.

country, people go to the local school and the majority of children

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go to the local school and they will not do that any more if you

:15:08.:15:10.

introduce selection. There's different ways in which you can

:15:11.:15:14.

solve this house price issue, other than going back to the nineteen

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fifties. There is one approach which is very unpopular, to do it through

:15:17.:15:21.

a lottery. The other way is to do branded admission, where you make

:15:22.:15:25.

sure that you have a mix of children, school by school, which in

:15:26.:15:28.

the area where we live, in Hackney, works very well, and makes sure that

:15:29.:15:34.

you have truly, hence of schools. Of course in the end it comes down to

:15:35.:15:37.

great teaching and leadership, and you need to have setting to make

:15:38.:15:40.

sure that kids are taught at the right level of ability. But we

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should not go back to a world where we tell kids at 11 they're

:15:44.:15:46.

second-class. So, MPs and Peers should be kicked

:15:47.:15:51.

out of the Palace of Westminster for 6 years whilst vital work takes

:15:52.:15:54.

place to restore the building. That's the recommendation

:15:55.:15:57.

from a committee of MPs and Peers who have spent months

:15:58.:15:59.

considering what to do about the crumbling building -

:16:00.:16:01.

the home to Parliament - but also a Unesco

:16:02.:16:04.

world heritage site. The full proposals are due to be

:16:05.:16:05.

made public in the next hour - but our reporter Mark Lobel has

:16:06.:16:09.

details of the proposed move. Beautiful outside, but not

:16:10.:16:13.

so inside, parts of the Palace of Westminster are dangerous to work

:16:14.:16:19.

in, and in desperate need of repair. The roof's leaking, the stonework

:16:20.:16:23.

is rotting, in effect. We need to do a great deal more

:16:24.:16:27.

in terms of fire The Victorians left us

:16:28.:16:30.

lots of pictures and drawings of statues and all the rest of it,

:16:31.:16:37.

but really good plans so that we know where the voids

:16:38.:16:40.

are, we don't have. But all the facilities,

:16:41.:16:43.

whether it's electricity, IT, comms, sewage, fresh water,

:16:44.:16:46.

high-pressure steam, central heating - all of that -

:16:47.:16:50.

have just been laid And I don't think I'm giving away

:16:51.:16:53.

any secrets if I say that there are lots of wires -

:16:54.:17:02.

nobody's quite sure where they go. To allow for extensive renovations,

:17:03.:17:06.

a parliamentary committee is recommending all MPs and peers

:17:07.:17:09.

should vacate Parliament for at least six years

:17:10.:17:11.

in the early 2020s. 650 MPs would all pack

:17:12.:17:18.

their bags from the House of Commons and move 350 yards

:17:19.:17:20.

across the road to Whitehall. The temporary Commons would be based

:17:21.:17:28.

here at Richmond House. At the moment, this

:17:29.:17:31.

is the headquarters At the back of this building

:17:32.:17:32.

is a courtyard which could be used as a temporary chamber for debates,

:17:33.:17:40.

statements and Prime This also benefits from being

:17:41.:17:42.

on the Parliamentary Estate, which makes it safer,

:17:43.:17:45.

and it's also within walking At the same time, all members

:17:46.:17:48.

of the House of Lords would also be rehoused,

:17:49.:17:51.

down the road to the QEII Conference Right now, this is a commercial

:17:52.:17:54.

conference venue, with an abundance But as it's owned by the Government,

:17:55.:18:00.

it wouldn't be difficult to turn this into a second chamber,

:18:01.:18:05.

to scrutinise laws and The PM's spokeswoman says she'll

:18:06.:18:07.

respond in due course. It's then up to members of both

:18:08.:18:14.

Houses of Parliament to scrutinise It's not just about the convenience

:18:15.:18:17.

of MPs or their lordships. It's important that this

:18:18.:18:30.

World Heritage Site, this mother of parliaments,

:18:31.:18:32.

is properly refurbished What we've got to look

:18:33.:18:34.

at is the scope of the programme - make sure that that is really well

:18:35.:18:38.

worked out from the beginning and there aren't any

:18:39.:18:41.

hidden surprises. We've got to watch that we keep it

:18:42.:18:42.

on time and on schedule - otherwise we will see

:18:43.:18:45.

these costs escalate. And I would take with a pinch

:18:46.:18:47.

of salt that 3.9 billion I don't think the detailed work has

:18:48.:18:50.

yet been done to prove what it's So, after years of studies, now,

:18:51.:18:54.

a concrete proposal that could lead to MPs and lords vacating Parliament

:18:55.:19:01.

for the first time since it was evacuated

:19:02.:19:03.

during the Second World War. And we're joined now

:19:04.:19:08.

by Labour MP and member of the Treasury Select Committee,

:19:09.:19:10.

John Mann. Welcome. Is it worth the ?4 billion

:19:11.:19:23.

price tag? It has got to be refurbished. I can see a lot of

:19:24.:19:26.

money being wasted. Huge opportunities being wasted to

:19:27.:19:32.

recreate exactly what is there. The shooting Gallery, the bathrooms

:19:33.:19:35.

downstairs nobody uses, as if nothing has changed in 200 years,

:19:36.:19:39.

rather than actually modernise the place and perhaps modernise it so

:19:40.:19:44.

much that we do not need all of those peers coming back. That would

:19:45.:19:47.

be another discussion on in terms of the number of peers, but you would

:19:48.:19:53.

favour the idea of moving out for the six-year period while they

:19:54.:19:57.

refurbished, even if it is not in a style you would like a then come

:19:58.:20:00.

back in? We could fit into Westminster. It might be better. The

:20:01.:20:07.

consultants reports, they are plucking figures around -- out of

:20:08.:20:14.

the air, rounded up to the nearest billion. They are saying there are

:20:15.:20:19.

dangerous levels of asbestos. I'm sure there are. It needs sorting

:20:20.:20:22.

out. There will need to be Cindy camping at some stage. But building

:20:23.:20:28.

a new parliament? -- there will need to be some revamping at some stage.

:20:29.:20:33.

What about the other buildings around the country? Such as? The

:20:34.:20:41.

Welbeck estate. Nothing to do with your constituency, of course. I'm

:20:42.:20:46.

prepared to go to places like Manchester, the Scottish Parliament,

:20:47.:20:48.

Edinburgh, we could move them along for a little bit.

:20:49.:20:50.

CHUCKLES Have you spoken to the SNP about

:20:51.:20:58.

that? What do you think? I think it's got to be done. It needs to be

:20:59.:21:02.

done in a cost-effective way. Change is always difficult. Parliament is

:21:03.:21:08.

actually about the speeches and the questions answered or not answered.

:21:09.:21:13.

Whatever happens, very quickly it will become Parliament again in this

:21:14.:21:19.

temporary period. It would be convenient to the BBC if it went...

:21:20.:21:26.

One change we could try, and I'm thinking of a prominent TV programme

:21:27.:21:30.

that could be hosted in the Royal Gallery. We could get some cameras,

:21:31.:21:34.

spectators, a bit of dancing. We will be coming to Strictly...

:21:35.:21:45.

Opening up Parliament is... Parliament is open. No, no, it is a

:21:46.:21:50.

mess, it is antiquated in the way the space is used. A lot of wasted

:21:51.:21:55.

space... If it was modernised within the current building you would be

:21:56.:22:01.

supportive of that? Yes, but we need to modernise things like the hours,

:22:02.:22:04.

which are important. The structure, the way the building is used, if all

:22:05.:22:08.

we do is repair the historic building as it is it is a hugely

:22:09.:22:14.

wasted opportunity for our democracy. Does there need to be a

:22:15.:22:18.

complete change inside to make it work in the modern age? Take the

:22:19.:22:21.

Scottish Parliament, which was designed from scratch, it ended up

:22:22.:22:30.

being more antagonistic than the Westminster Parliament. The banging

:22:31.:22:34.

of the desks, and all of that. And people complained from the beginning

:22:35.:22:37.

about there not being enough space. All of that. In reality, it is

:22:38.:22:42.

difficult to redesign a Parliament. John is probably right, there are

:22:43.:22:46.

some bits in there which are very outdated which don't need to be

:22:47.:22:50.

updated like the shooting Gallery. Although people in the shooting club

:22:51.:22:53.

might think it is unfair... Some of the characters inside of the 19th

:22:54.:23:01.

century. There could be a crash. As opposed to MPs?

:23:02.:23:05.

CHUCKLES In terms of moving out, would you be

:23:06.:23:10.

able to run things? You say people would get used to it. But would it

:23:11.:23:14.

be possible when they are so entrenched in the slightly

:23:15.:23:16.

antiquated building which is the houses of Parliament? I think the

:23:17.:23:22.

convention of the speaker in the chair, and the fact people speak

:23:23.:23:25.

through the speaker rather than to each other is really important. I

:23:26.:23:30.

think that is more important than the design of the building and all

:23:31.:23:34.

of those things. You could have a completely different physical

:23:35.:23:36.

setting. Quickly it would be like Parliament today. Do you think it

:23:37.:23:41.

would be people moving out in 2022? I think it will happen. But I

:23:42.:23:46.

suspect it will be done badly and in ten years' time there will be

:23:47.:23:49.

regrets about how we could actually change a lot more. Without costing

:23:50.:23:53.

more. Probably saving money. Make it more modern in how it works, but

:23:54.:23:57.

keep the beauty of the architecture. And that optimistic note, thank you.

:23:58.:24:00.

-- on that. Now - our guest of the day Ed Balls

:24:01.:24:02.

is obviously a twinkle toes on the dance floor -

:24:03.:24:06.

but he did have a career before That all came to an ungraceful

:24:07.:24:09.

end in May last year In his book, "Speaking Out",

:24:10.:24:12.

he considers his and Labour's defeat - and how the party

:24:13.:24:16.

might regain power. We'll be discussing that

:24:17.:24:19.

in a moment, but first a reminder of Ed's

:24:20.:24:21.

glittering political career. # The root of all

:24:22.:24:22.

evil to a lot of men # I'll take the money,

:24:23.:24:30.

you can have the chick # When you kick the bucket,

:24:31.:24:35.

it's just too bad # Life's too short,

:24:36.:25:04.

don't make it sad # Cos you sure don't

:25:05.:25:07.

know when you got to go # You can work and

:25:08.:25:37.

work and have no fun # You'll find out

:25:38.:25:39.

you're the crazy one # But there's one thing

:25:40.:25:41.

you can always do # Cos you sure don't

:25:42.:25:45.

know when you got to go # Cos you sure don't know

:25:46.:25:53.

when you got to go...# I'm sure the Labour Party

:25:54.:26:06.

will emerge in the coming weeks # Cos you sure don't know

:26:07.:26:09.

when you got to go!# And Iain Martin joins us

:26:10.:26:20.

in the studio with the journalist Welcome. First, Ed Balls, did Labour

:26:21.:26:33.

lose in 2015 because they were not radical enough, or perhaps they were

:26:34.:26:38.

not trusted enough on the economy? In the end I think what happened was

:26:39.:26:42.

that people saw the opinion polls being very close. They were worried

:26:43.:26:47.

that the SNP would hold the balance of power. And there was lots of

:26:48.:26:53.

speculation about how Ed Miliband and the SNP were deciding the

:26:54.:26:56.

Budget. There were lots of voters in my constituency and around the

:26:57.:27:00.

country who may have voted Liberal Democrat in 2010, thought about

:27:01.:27:04.

voting Ukip, then switched back to the Conservatives because they were

:27:05.:27:06.

fearful about a Labour government and the economy. So they were not

:27:07.:27:11.

trusted on the economy? The idea they were voting Conservative

:27:12.:27:14.

because they wanted Labour to be more left wing is nonsense. That is

:27:15.:27:18.

obviously for the birds, Paul Mason, the idea Labour wasn't radical

:27:19.:27:23.

enough is why they didn't win. Ed's because interesting. It was about

:27:24.:27:34.

the centre-left, essentially. The last minute clip of Lib Dem voters

:27:35.:27:38.

could be people solidifying around the Conservatives over Scotland is

:27:39.:27:46.

one thing. But there has been a long-term decline of Labour vote.

:27:47.:27:50.

Splitting to the right with Ukip, splitting to the left arguably with

:27:51.:27:54.

the Green party. Any Labour leader, whether it is Owen Smith, Jeremy

:27:55.:27:57.

Corbyn, or some future person, has to have a narrative. Observing as a

:27:58.:28:03.

journalist, covering it for ITN, it was the absence of a narrative. Any

:28:04.:28:07.

narrative is better for Labour. Are you saying they did not have any

:28:08.:28:12.

narrative at all? Well, they had a narrative... What was it, austerity

:28:13.:28:19.

might? Ed thought he would win elections through policy. And what I

:28:20.:28:22.

have been saying is that you win them by having a story to tell. --

:28:23.:28:29.

austerity light. A story to tell them about how their macrolides get

:28:30.:28:34.

better. Anybody who comes to labour with a story to tell, or to bring

:28:35.:28:37.

the fragments together, the Green party, the Ukip voters, the

:28:38.:28:43.

Conservative switches, that puts a camp of Labour back in power. You

:28:44.:28:47.

failed, in a way, to counter the Tories argument, that you had

:28:48.:28:52.

crashed the car and maxed out on the credit card, you admit that? The

:28:53.:28:57.

financial crisis was substantial. We debated for a long time how to deal

:28:58.:29:02.

with the economic argument... And you couldn't agree, could you? Ed

:29:03.:29:07.

and I agreed that matching the plans of the Conservatives would be

:29:08.:29:11.

ridiculous. But I also felt that to go out and do a big spend by

:29:12.:29:16.

borrowing with a deficit wasn't going to work. At the beginning of

:29:17.:29:23.

the election campaign, saying that our sums did not add up were not

:29:24.:29:28.

registering. But the SNP fear was powerful. It exposed cars and

:29:29.:29:31.

leadership and the economy and on vision. -- it exposed us. You cannot

:29:32.:29:42.

win unless you persuade people who might vote Conservative to switch to

:29:43.:29:47.

Labour. Where I disagree with Jeremy Corbyn and with Paul is that Paul

:29:48.:29:50.

thinks he can put together a rainbow coalition on the left and with the

:29:51.:29:54.

Green party. You have got to reach into the centre ground. You cannot

:29:55.:29:59.

simply be satisfied that you have got a cheering mob of your

:30:00.:30:02.

supporters at a public meeting and think that translate into votes in

:30:03.:30:06.

the ballot box. You have got to get into the centre ground. Is that what

:30:07.:30:11.

you are doing? Let's not call the Labour members a mob. I agree, the

:30:12.:30:16.

left alone... Well, Labour can never win other than being an alliance.

:30:17.:30:21.

The big problem with Scotland. That set that aside. Let's talk about

:30:22.:30:26.

England and Wales. I support Jeremy Corbyn. -- and that's set that

:30:27.:30:32.

aside. You support his style of politics and his policies, as well?

:30:33.:30:37.

Yes. But this is not central left any more. It is about what is the

:30:38.:30:41.

heartland of labour. Under new Labour, what began to happen, it was

:30:42.:30:47.

clear in 2015, the heartland is the urban voter. The swing vote is the

:30:48.:30:53.

working class voter, which we could no longer take for granted. The only

:30:54.:30:57.

thing you can offer them is economic radicalism. Well, it is left, isn't

:30:58.:31:03.

it? When you talk about the things you are talking about, you disagreed

:31:04.:31:06.

with the decisions that were made by Ed Miliband and Ed Balls at the

:31:07.:31:11.

time. No, actually. You would have liked to have seen more money spent.

:31:12.:31:18.

Believe it or not, the Corbyn movement is a coalition of people

:31:19.:31:23.

who radically disagreed with him, and people who just disagreed with

:31:24.:31:31.

him. Actually, that is kind of odd because I have never booked voted

:31:32.:31:35.

Tory. You did face a choice going into the 2015 election, and that was

:31:36.:31:41.

how you framed the austerity debate. Budget made it fairly clear that you

:31:42.:31:44.

could have gone into that election basically saying, no further

:31:45.:31:48.

austerity. And I think you almost did. But you are caged it as a kind

:31:49.:31:53.

of responsibility thing, fearing what happened in 2008, rightly,

:31:54.:31:59.

because... In the end, people would not trust us. Your words were, there

:32:00.:32:03.

is a hard left utopian fantasy, devoid of connection to the reality

:32:04.:32:07.

of people's lives, and we need to make decisions on tax, budgets,

:32:08.:32:11.

immigration and welfare. Will that win an election only what is amazing

:32:12.:32:15.

about being in the Labour Party at the moment, and I I hope you agree

:32:16.:32:20.

with this, Ed Balls, is that the influx of people we are having are

:32:21.:32:24.

exactly those people who we need to tell the story too. We are seeing

:32:25.:32:27.

mums on estates becoming activists in the Labour movement, which is an

:32:28.:32:31.

amazing thing. We could not fill a small hole in the 1980s. Now we are

:32:32.:32:36.

seeing tens, hundreds. But what about the wider electorate in an

:32:37.:32:41.

election? Well, they can be the ambassadors on the doorstep. Your

:32:42.:32:44.

book is full of examples about how bombarding working-class people with

:32:45.:32:48.

messages did not work. Above all, they can be listeners. I want to

:32:49.:32:51.

hear what they want us to do. But you just called them of? I do not

:32:52.:32:56.

mean mob in the sense of a political mob. Mob is the wrong word, I

:32:57.:33:00.

apologise for that. Do you think Jeremy Corbyn can win the next

:33:01.:33:06.

general election? Dury Colbon won the leadership election. He has

:33:07.:33:11.

brought in new members. If that translates into strength in the

:33:12.:33:14.

opinion polls, I will be the first to say I was wrong. Unfortunately

:33:15.:33:18.

that is not happening. In the end, to leave Nato may be popular at a

:33:19.:33:22.

public meeting but it is absolutely not whether centre-left voter is.

:33:23.:33:27.

I'm afraid they are just not going to vote for that. You did not win

:33:28.:33:31.

the... That was the suggestion. You did not win the election, either,

:33:32.:33:35.

did you? You're Ed Miliband's brand of politics did not win come either,

:33:36.:33:41.

so maybe this will work? If you take immigration, for example, talking

:33:42.:33:46.

about Morley and Leeds, one thing I said in the book was that

:33:47.:33:49.

globalisation brought big changes, which the left has found hard to

:33:50.:33:54.

deal with, what is the unexpected, huge movement of Labour. My view is

:33:55.:33:58.

that you cannot win in Morley unless you say, we are not going to shop

:33:59.:34:01.

the borders, we are going to manage and control this. Jeremy said before

:34:02.:34:06.

the referendum, we cannot have, it has got to be unlimited. That is not

:34:07.:34:10.

the way the voters of Morley will think. I actually agree with that,

:34:11.:34:15.

if you look at social media, I was supporting you on that. Do you think

:34:16.:34:19.

Jeremy Corbyn is doing a good job as leader? He has had a lot to deal

:34:20.:34:28.

with. Whose fault is that? Owen Smith stood, other people stood

:34:29.:34:32.

down. That is their right. What they have to bear in mind is, maybe not

:34:33.:34:37.

whole of the tanking in the polls. The tanking in the sand that is

:34:38.:34:41.

real. It is now happening. Some of that has to be down to the disunity.

:34:42.:34:45.

Some of it has to be down to Corbyn, he is the leader. But I would say

:34:46.:34:49.

that politics is sequential. There will be a vote. I understand that

:34:50.:34:53.

the polls are saying, it will be Corbyn. He is likely to win, as long

:34:54.:35:01.

as it is a democratic vote. After that, let's take it sequentially,

:35:02.:35:04.

like we did with Ed Miliband. Should there be selection of MPs who will

:35:05.:35:10.

not back him? I am into trade-offs at the moment. I think the shadow

:35:11.:35:14.

cabinet insists on being elected. That is what used to happen? Then we

:35:15.:35:20.

on the left can come forward without measures. But what I hope happens...

:35:21.:35:25.

Including compulsory reselection? Yes. But what I hope happens is that

:35:26.:35:30.

in the future, whoever wins, Corbyn or Smith, let's unite behind him and

:35:31.:35:36.

fight the Tories. Because you admit the polls are disastrous at the

:35:37.:35:40.

moment? Actually, there is a weird thing, the YouGov poll shows the

:35:41.:35:41.

Labour lead not bad among C-D photos. Do you think

:35:42.:35:56.

Labour could form the next government? I do, yes. . If there

:35:57.:36:01.

are elections to the Shadow Cabinet, and the moderates, let's call them

:36:02.:36:07.

that, are in need, and the first thing they say is, as can I do not

:36:08.:36:11.

have confidence in the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn? Every MP goes through

:36:12.:36:17.

a reselection process in their constituency anyway. I went through

:36:18.:36:21.

it twice when I was an MP. If a party wants to get rid of an MP,

:36:22.:36:24.

they can do that under the rules already. You have to ask this

:36:25.:36:28.

question - is the MP there simply to be the representative of the

:36:29.:36:34.

members, or do they have a responsibility to win voters across

:36:35.:36:37.

the constituency? Of course the members are also voters, but there's

:36:38.:36:40.

a small minority of voters in the constituency. What worries me is, I

:36:41.:36:44.

fear that are available moment is becoming a party around Jeremy

:36:45.:36:51.

Corbyn which thinks that having strength in opposition is

:36:52.:36:54.

sufficient. I don't think that in the end is good enough. We need an

:36:55.:36:57.

opposition which wants to be in government. The reason why many of

:36:58.:37:00.

the MPs are so worried is because they do not think at the moment

:37:01.:37:04.

that's even what axemen is trying to achieve. Paul will have to persuade

:37:05.:37:08.

us that Jeremy actually wants to be Prime Minister. I'm not sure he

:37:09.:37:14.

really wants it. Or even that that is the aim of the project at the

:37:15.:37:15.

moment. Big Bang was the dramatic moment

:37:16.:37:20.

thirty years ago in 1986 when the City of London embraced

:37:21.:37:23.

a new type of global finance. Like it or loathe it,

:37:24.:37:26.

the City now contributes almost 12% But what's next as -

:37:27.:37:28.

in the wake of Brexit - the square mile looks

:37:29.:37:34.

to a new, digital future? The journalist Iain Martin has

:37:35.:37:36.

written a book charting the history of the City and how it

:37:37.:37:39.

will face new challenges. In 1571, Queen Elizabeth I came

:37:40.:37:44.

here to this spot in the heart of the City of London to open

:37:45.:37:50.

the Royal Exchange. It was a new hub for trading

:37:51.:37:54.

and for deals to be done. It was a place in which fortunes

:37:55.:37:57.

would be made and lost. And out of it grew the modern City

:37:58.:38:06.

of London, with banking, Since then, the Royal Exchange has

:38:07.:38:09.

been burned down, rebuilt, and reinvented several times -

:38:10.:38:13.

much like the rest And the wider Square Mile has

:38:14.:38:16.

grown to become a global This autumn is the 30th anniversary

:38:17.:38:25.

of one of the biggest explosions, or revolutions,

:38:26.:38:33.

in the City's history. Big Bang, in 1986, when Margaret

:38:34.:38:50.

Thatcher turned the stock In came more Americans, yuppies,

:38:51.:38:53.

Porsches, red braces, up went bonuses, salaries,

:38:54.:38:59.

London house prices, Down, say critics, went

:39:00.:39:01.

standards and ethics. Now, 30 years later,

:39:02.:39:11.

the City finds itself on the verge It finds that it must reinvent

:39:12.:39:14.

itself once again. But the truth is that London

:39:15.:39:20.

and the rest of us are about to be hit by something much,

:39:21.:39:32.

much bigger than Brexit. Here at Silicon roundabout,

:39:33.:39:34.

just a stone's throw from the City of London,

:39:35.:39:36.

a revolution is sweeping It means new forms of trading,

:39:37.:39:41.

new digital currencies, new competition, new ways

:39:42.:39:46.

of doing business. Will the City be able

:39:47.:39:54.

to survive what's coming? Its history suggests

:39:55.:40:00.

it usually does. Not only does it enjoy a unique

:40:01.:40:08.

combination of advantages - time zone, law, language,

:40:09.:40:11.

history and experience - today, a new generation of coders,

:40:12.:40:14.

bankers, and financial tech wizards are remaking

:40:15.:40:18.

this extraordinary place. Iain Martin joins us

:40:19.:40:23.

here in the studio and Paul Mason and former City Minister Ed Balls

:40:24.:40:26.

are still with us. Iain Martin, what does Theresa May

:40:27.:40:39.

need to do to secure the City's interest in Brexit negotiations? The

:40:40.:40:43.

principal problem will be passport in, which is the arrangement by

:40:44.:40:48.

which big tanks here, foreign banks, can trade within the European Union.

:40:49.:40:51.

But I think even more important than that is clearance and settlement,

:40:52.:40:56.

which is basically what London does. It is the capital of the euro. That

:40:57.:41:02.

means that 70% of Forex trading and all sorts of other over-the-counter

:41:03.:41:06.

derivatives, all sorts of fancy stuff, gets done to London, although

:41:07.:41:12.

the UK is not in the euro. So there is a very difficult set of

:41:13.:41:14.

negotiations coming up. But I don't think we should get too hung up on

:41:15.:41:18.

that, which is part of the point I was trying to make in the book and

:41:19.:41:23.

in the film, which is dad in something bigger is coming, which is

:41:24.:41:27.

a digital revolution in finance. If we just look at the City as it is

:41:28.:41:32.

now, in terms of how crucial it is to the economy, financial services

:41:33.:41:35.

and the industry around it has to be protected, doesn't it? It has to be

:41:36.:41:38.

protect it often from itself from its own culture. Had this

:41:39.:41:43.

excoriating report from the government's social mobility

:41:44.:41:47.

commission last week about people in brown shoes being refused top jobs

:41:48.:41:51.

in the City, despite their first-class degrees. It has to be

:41:52.:41:56.

regulated. And I think to keep it in its global pre-eminent position, not

:41:57.:41:59.

just within the Eurozone but globally, it has to move both with

:42:00.:42:06.

these times of digital change, but it also has to understand that the

:42:07.:42:11.

model of the last 30 years, in which it was pre-eminent, will probably

:42:12.:42:16.

change. Finance has to find a new role in the wider economy. How is it

:42:17.:42:21.

going to do that, when you think about how much it contributes to the

:42:22.:42:28.

GDP and how prominent, the reason it is so prominent, financial services,

:42:29.:42:31.

because we do not do anything else quite as well, it does not make us

:42:32.:42:36.

quite as much money? We make excellent things, in factories,

:42:37.:42:40.

manufacturer, we don't just make financial services. But it has

:42:41.:42:45.

absolutely got to be nurtured. One of the red lines for John McDonnell

:42:46.:42:58.

is passporting. That is above free movement, which surprisingly for a

:42:59.:43:01.

lot of Labour people, has no red line. We have got to keep a global

:43:02.:43:07.

finance industry in London. If you turn it upside down the other way,

:43:08.:43:12.

it would be an act of vandalism for them to destroy London, attempt to

:43:13.:43:18.

destroy London and try and switch it to Frankfurt, which certainly does

:43:19.:43:22.

not have the capability. There is no way in which France with its

:43:23.:43:26.

neighbour laws would become the capital... They will try. Of course

:43:27.:43:31.

they will try. But the great lesson from London's financial history is

:43:32.:43:35.

that the key is always openness, and openness to outside influence, to

:43:36.:43:41.

immigration, to new ideas. And the one time in the City's history where

:43:42.:43:46.

it has come close to serious decline and collapse, which was the

:43:47.:43:50.

beginning of the First World War, right up to the 1960s, it was shot

:43:51.:43:54.

from the outside world by exchange controls. That liberation which in

:43:55.:44:00.

big bang tells us that openness is what matters. So not regulation. But

:44:01.:44:05.

for a lot of people, a lot of our viewers, they will say the banks

:44:06.:44:09.

were the ones who caused the financial crash. Well, they were the

:44:10.:44:14.

ones, they caused all the hardship of recession and the cuts which then

:44:15.:44:17.

came, and it was a financial crisis not of voters' making. That's true.

:44:18.:44:24.

And that was your fault, felt a lot of voters, because it was

:44:25.:44:27.

deregulatory, banks were allowed to do what they liked and they had not

:44:28.:44:32.

been monitored. Well, it started in America and the sub-prime market. I

:44:33.:44:35.

think it is absolutely true that some of our biggest banks became

:44:36.:44:39.

very exposed to very risky lending, and did so in a way which was

:44:40.:44:44.

concealed, and it happened in northern rock as well. The reality

:44:45.:44:48.

was... The reality was that the Governor of the Bank of England and

:44:49.:44:51.

the head of the Financial Services Authority and the heads of all of

:44:52.:44:55.

those banks, me, the City Minister and my counterparts all around the

:44:56.:44:59.

world, all of us failed to see that growing crisis. Inflation was low,

:45:00.:45:03.

we thought things were stable, and then when it was revealed, no but he

:45:04.:45:06.

knew exactly what was happening underneath. It was terrible. I say

:45:07.:45:12.

in my book, while you look around the world for risks, you've got to

:45:13.:45:15.

keep your eye on what's happening right in front of your nose. Nobody

:45:16.:45:19.

knew what was happening in NatWest RBS, it was terrible. And I know

:45:20.:45:23.

there were people who say they warned about it, but they say that a

:45:24.:45:30.

lot of it was done by Labour to pay for public services, which needed

:45:31.:45:31.

that money? Yes, via taxation and things like

:45:32.:45:42.

that. But you don't want to strangle the golden goose. It did that

:45:43.:45:47.

itself. The period you mentioned, World War I until the 70s happened

:45:48.:45:53.

because, first of all, financial markets collapsed in the late 1920s.

:45:54.:45:57.

A new economic model came along which suppressed global finance. I

:45:58.:46:02.

want to do financial eyes the world. And this country. That does not mean

:46:03.:46:09.

that there is no industry we just end speculative finance as much as

:46:10.:46:20.

we can. -- I want to definancialise. But it became too big. Because of

:46:21.:46:24.

cheap money policies, lent too much, and became too leveraged. And right

:46:25.:46:34.

back to 1720, they're always crashes in the history of the city and in

:46:35.:46:38.

the world of global finance. Don't presume it will not happen again.

:46:39.:46:43.

How damaging will it be for the city if the UK leads the single market

:46:44.:46:52.

altogether? -- leaves. Terrible. Gloom is overdone. Interviewed a lot

:46:53.:46:56.

of people from the city for this which predicted gloom and absolute

:46:57.:47:01.

disaster. -- I interviewed. But the city is full of clever, inventive

:47:02.:47:06.

people. After the referendum a few told me that they were thinking

:47:07.:47:09.

there might be opportunity. They might change their Mac reminds. And

:47:10.:47:15.

the old viewers on fixed regulatory block, which ran out at brussels. --

:47:16.:47:22.

their mines. They thought they might not be able to keep up with what is

:47:23.:47:27.

happening in digital development. It is about to be blown apart in a big

:47:28.:47:31.

way. London is well placed to benefit from it. -- Brussels. Jeremy

:47:32.:47:38.

Corbyn seemed to be fairly sanguine about the idea about not being part

:47:39.:47:46.

of the single market at all. Should the city try to be part of it?

:47:47.:47:52.

Absolutely. So it would be damaging? Yes. Jeremy Corbyn's position was

:47:53.:48:01.

that we need access. The problem with saying we will be in the EEA,

:48:02.:48:08.

Labour is no longer in control. You can have access at any level, can't

:48:09.:48:12.

you? But, membership, it is complete membership. Access, anybody can have

:48:13.:48:17.

access if you are prepared to pay. Tariff free access is different. You

:48:18.:48:22.

have to be a member. We don't know because Theresa May will not tell

:48:23.:48:26.

anybody what the terms of negotiation are. How can Labour

:48:27.:48:30.

commit to staying within the EEA when they do not know the terms? You

:48:31.:48:34.

are saying he is broadly in favour of staying in the single market, or

:48:35.:48:39.

having access. Yes. Why is it terrible? Paul is right about

:48:40.:48:44.

Theresa May. There is only so many times you can say Brexit before

:48:45.:48:48.

people get frustrated. You will find we already are. We are going to

:48:49.:48:52.

leave the EU, we are not on the single currency, but are we

:48:53.:48:56.

withdrawing from economic co-operation with our neighbours and

:48:57.:48:59.

going it alone, are we cutting ourselves off from the global

:49:00.:49:05.

economy, are we trying to find a new way to be part of this system? The

:49:06.:49:11.

city is one of our great strengths. Despite the mistakes of the

:49:12.:49:15.

financial crisis. Over the next 20, 30, 40 years we needed to play a

:49:16.:49:19.

more important role for us, not less. It is lawyers, accountants,

:49:20.:49:30.

people investing ordinary pension fund -- pension funders' savings.

:49:31.:49:40.

The strength has always been based on open, international, global

:49:41.:49:43.

Britain. If we retreat from that it would be a tragedy. Thanks very

:49:44.:49:45.

much. So much for politics,

:49:46.:49:47.

because Ed's left that all behind now, for a new career

:49:48.:49:50.

as a ballroom dancer. I have been waiting all day for

:49:51.:49:53.

this. The juxtaposition. He made his debut on Strictly Come

:49:54.:49:59.

Dancing on Saturday - The former Shadow

:50:00.:50:01.

Chancellor, Ed Balls! # Well I know that the

:50:02.:50:06.

boogaloo is out of sight # But the shingaling's

:50:07.:50:17.

the thing tonight # But if that was you

:50:18.:50:20.

and me now baby #. # Aaaaaaaaaah #.

:50:21.:50:23.

you shake your tailfeather We should all be in glitter and

:50:24.:50:50.

sequins. Joining us now,

:50:51.:50:53.

another ex-politician, but whose dancing

:50:54.:50:55.

pedigree is a little more Former Lib Dem Business

:50:56.:50:56.

Secretary Vince Cable - here What did you think of his first

:50:57.:51:06.

outing? Not bad. Well you pleasantly surprised? Yeah, he hasn't done it

:51:07.:51:15.

before. My first positive review. Hold onto it. The suit wasn't right,

:51:16.:51:23.

but the steps were OK. As you go through you will have to decide if

:51:24.:51:28.

you are going to be a hapless type, John Ann Widdecombe... What advice

:51:29.:51:38.

would you give me? -- John Sergeant, Ann Widdecombe. You do things well,

:51:39.:51:41.

you play football, you like playing the piano. I learnt something from

:51:42.:51:50.

doing it. Did you? We will show some pictures of you dancing. There was

:51:51.:51:54.

one thing where I was terrible, my posture was bad. And I heard you

:51:55.:52:02.

already knew how to dance. Yes. But my posture was terrible. Anton took

:52:03.:52:06.

me aside and said if you want to improve you need to get this sorted.

:52:07.:52:10.

You look very professional. I remember watching it at the time.

:52:11.:52:16.

Look at those spins. Ed, you were talking earlier about the training.

:52:17.:52:23.

What is it like? Totally exhausting. But not physically, it is actually

:52:24.:52:26.

more mentally exhausting. I did seven hours yesterday. That is a

:52:27.:52:32.

lot. You have to remember everything. And because of muscle

:52:33.:52:36.

memory. If I messed up, she makes me, Katya and she makes me stop and

:52:37.:52:45.

start again. I start from nothing. I am a novice. But on this show you

:52:46.:52:49.

have to try and learn. I don't want to be dragged on the floor and doing

:52:50.:52:55.

it as a joke. I want to get better. Let's all take to the dance floor

:52:56.:53:01.

and do a ballroom hold. Vince, since you are an expert ballroom dancer,

:53:02.:53:05.

and he does not know how to do ballroom, can you? I can't. The BBC

:53:06.:53:11.

are stopping me. I signed a contract. People more powerful than

:53:12.:53:20.

you and me will stop me. What is a good ballroom hold, Vince, then? It

:53:21.:53:27.

is a good stance. It is stretching. Stretch from the bottom. Yes. My

:53:28.:53:34.

teacher tells me you have to imagine somebody is pulling your head up.

:53:35.:53:37.

You are leaning back, you need to keep straight. Hand? Up. And a tiny

:53:38.:53:49.

bit out. It is getting there. More angled. And this? They did not say

:53:50.:53:57.

this was in my contract. Get in. I am! You have to get more physical.

:53:58.:54:04.

I'm so used to looking at the camera. How do we look? Much

:54:05.:54:10.

improved. Thanks very much. There is not enough room in the studio to go

:54:11.:54:15.

anywhere. That is the closest I will get Strictly. That was rather

:54:16.:54:22.

exciting. Do you think things would be a good teacher? He would be

:54:23.:54:27.

great. The thing about the strings. Your posture is naturally better

:54:28.:54:32.

than a lot of people. There you go, you can do that for the rest of the

:54:33.:54:38.

day. Katya Will be delighted. Problem is, as I start moving, I get

:54:39.:54:43.

hunched up. I look like a rugby player. I asked my children about

:54:44.:54:51.

it, and they said I looked like a camp rugby player.

:54:52.:54:53.

CHUCKLES Thank you for my lesson. The cheque

:54:54.:54:55.

is in the post. Now - from top dog

:54:56.:54:57.

on the dance floor - Yes, it's the Westminster Dog

:54:58.:55:00.

of the Year show and Ellie's been out to watch MPs and peers

:55:01.:55:04.

parading their canine friends. It is time for politicians to prove

:55:05.:55:19.

how in touch they are with normal people and normal dogs. A time for

:55:20.:55:23.

me to use terrible puns about man's best friend, it is the Westminster

:55:24.:55:33.

dog of the year. Let me pause you. I need to ask no leading questions.

:55:34.:55:38.

This is our family working cocker spaniel. She will be five in a

:55:39.:55:42.

couple of weeks. This is her first trip to London. She is bemused by

:55:43.:55:47.

the pigeons who move very slowly and all of the smell 's London office.

:55:48.:55:52.

This is the owner, she was bred in eastern Europe and she was smuggled

:55:53.:55:56.

here. It is important to raise the issue of poppy smuggling. We have

:55:57.:56:00.

had him for eight months. He is pretty much part of the family. He

:56:01.:56:08.

cants loudly. He comes from Scotland, we are not used the heat.

:56:09.:56:20.

-- pants loudly. Sit, now wait. There we go. They are like the Green

:56:21.:56:27.

party. Yes, joint leadership. This one is Clinton and this one is

:56:28.:56:39.

Kennedy. Paw. MPs always say they are worried about the paw. I think

:56:40.:56:45.

we should give a free rescued greyhound to every pensioner. Think

:56:46.:56:53.

you have seen enough of the ruff and tumble this year, this race just got

:56:54.:57:05.

pawsitively furocious, get it? Of course we do. And we are now

:57:06.:57:11.

joined by Clinton and Kennedy. I like the political names. What are

:57:12.:57:21.

they? They are labradoodles. Named after the presidents. But they could

:57:22.:57:25.

be Jackie and Hillary Clinton, as well. They are sisters, aren't they?

:57:26.:57:34.

They are. How do you win? You have to enter. Answers questions. They

:57:35.:57:38.

have been inspected. The judges have seen them. We did some embarrassing

:57:39.:57:44.

obstacles, as well. It is a public vote. And were outsiders. And the

:57:45.:57:50.

Labour side it is nice to win something. Cherish it. And this is

:57:51.:57:59.

what you won? Yes, and it even gets engraved. I'm very happy. As my four

:58:00.:58:05.

children will be extremely delighted. They are going to be so

:58:06.:58:10.

proud. To be on the winning side. They would have liked to have come

:58:11.:58:13.

along. They would have engaged. But they will be over the moon. They are

:58:14.:58:18.

a big part of family life. Was it fun? A lot of fun. It has mainly

:58:19.:58:26.

been won by Conservative MPs, so there was a competitive edge. We

:58:27.:58:33.

needed to wrestle it back. Labradoodle? Never heard of them.

:58:34.:58:40.

They are very popular. Well done, Clinton, well done, Kennedy, enjoy

:58:41.:58:41.

the win. Do the move, you need to keep

:58:42.:58:56.

practising before Saturday. That's it. Keep dancing. Goodbye.

:58:57.:59:02.

in a brand-new BBC Two quiz show, Debatable,

:59:03.:59:07.

where a team of celebrities put their debating skills to the test

:59:08.:59:11.

to try to win their contestants pots of cash.

:59:12.:59:14.

Will they help, or will they hinder? That's Debatable.

:59:15.:59:18.

Jo Coburn is joined by the former shadow chancellor and Strictly Come Dancing star Ed Balls to discuss Theresa May's plans to expand grammar schools, the multi-billion pound restoration of Parliament and the state of the Labour Party.


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