09/09/2016 Daily Politics


09/09/2016

Comedian Matt Forde and Anne McElvoy from The Economist keep Andrew company throughout the programme. They examine the government's plans for the expansion of grammar schools.


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Transcript


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Theresa May sets out major changes to the school system in England,

:00:37.:00:44.

with plans for a new wave of grammar schools.

:00:45.:00:48.

The Prime Minister wants existing grammar schools

:00:49.:00:50.

in England to expand, new ones to open and some existing

:00:51.:00:54.

This time next week we'll know who's taking over from Nigel Farage

:00:55.:01:03.

We take a look at the runners and riders.

:01:04.:01:10.

And Brexit banter, UB40 and Parliamentary Dog of the Year -

:01:11.:01:13.

we take a look back at the political week, in 60 seconds.

:01:14.:01:22.

All that in the next hour and with us for the duration,

:01:23.:01:27.

former Labour advisor turned stand-up comedian Matt Forde,

:01:28.:01:31.

She does the jokes at the Economists, not that there is many.

:01:32.:01:43.

First, Labour, and with two weeks to go until the result

:01:44.:01:47.

of the Labour leadership contest, the two candidates went head-to-head

:01:48.:01:49.

in a Question Time special on BBC One last night.

:01:50.:01:51.

Here's a quick taste of how the two men,

:01:52.:01:53.

Unless I misunderstood you, you said you would like to see

:01:54.:01:58.

Labour go into the next election saying - our party policy

:01:59.:02:00.

Because we need to find out what it is.

:02:01.:02:12.

Brexit vote set a direction, if you like, we don't know

:02:13.:02:15.

Jeremy, it is fine saying, you were there, debating Brexit

:02:16.:02:22.

during the referendum, but we didn't hear that

:02:23.:02:24.

We put the case to Remain and reform, we didn't win

:02:25.:02:37.

We have to work with the results of it.

:02:38.:02:44.

Owen, I don't fully understand what the problem is.

:02:45.:02:55.

You obviously have enormous talents, why can't we work together?

:02:56.:02:57.

Well, I've said it several times, Jeremy.

:02:58.:03:00.

If I felt you were going to lead Labour back to power, I would work

:03:01.:03:05.

with you in the Shadow Cabinet but I feel you are satisfied to lead

:03:06.:03:08.

There we go a flavour of what happened last night. Two weeks to G

:03:09.:03:21.

what did you make of it? I thought the first clip wags interesting. We

:03:22.:03:25.

saw Owen Smith being put under pressure on that commitment to

:03:26.:03:28.

effectively ignore the referendum result. I think it is odd

:03:29.:03:32.

positioning for him, in a party where one-third of Labour voters

:03:33.:03:36.

voted out in the referendum. I could see a strong pro-European tact that

:03:37.:03:39.

he should take. I thought Jeremy Corbyn, as we saw there, put him

:03:40.:03:43.

rather on the spot on that. You do have to work with the result,

:03:44.:03:46.

whether you are a Remainer or Brexiter. The problem then, I think

:03:47.:03:51.

for Owen Smith is that really, does he look like a credible candidate

:03:52.:03:54.

against Jeremy Corbyn? It perhaps looks as if he is the bravest. He is

:03:55.:03:59.

the one that has been prepared to stick his neck out. But I think it

:04:00.:04:04.

is a bit of a stretch to say - well, if we had this guy we would

:04:05.:04:08.

certainly be heading back to car, if we keep Jeremy Corbyn we wouldn't.

:04:09.:04:10.

That's the problem Labour voters will have with it. The consensus

:04:11.:04:15.

seemed to be last night. This was the big debate, BBC One, big

:04:16.:04:18.

audience, there are other debates, of course but this seemed to be the

:04:19.:04:23.

one where you had to perform to get cut through, Mr Corbyn did better

:04:24.:04:28.

than Mr Owen. He did all right. But he had the audience on his side,

:04:29.:04:32.

significantly. I think one of the most frustrating things as a viewer

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has been and it is an issue for the BBC and other broadcasters, how do

:04:38.:04:40.

you get an audience that's genuinely nonpartisan. If you are opening it

:04:41.:04:46.

up online, people pretend they are floating voters or not Corbynistas

:04:47.:04:50.

or not Remainers or Brexiters. From the moment that started last night,

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Owen Smith was facial a wall of noise. It was perfectly responsible

:04:55.:05:02.

for people to cheeks but if I didn't have to watch it for work, I would

:05:03.:05:07.

have turned it off. There is a level of political discourse that none of

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us should welcome. Some level of noise and cheering is fine but I

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felt last night there was a level of aggression in the audience that

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Corbyn at times faced, it wasn't all from his side but you got the sense

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from watching it, as neutrally as you can, that Owen Smith was up

:05:21.:05:23.

against it before he opened his mouth. Owen Smith didn't have a

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breakthrough last night. It wasn't a game changer for him. He was the

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challenger, you need game changers if you were the chal Enner. It would

:05:32.:05:35.

be possible to conclude, I would suggest, that it is therefore, all

:05:36.:05:38.

over. - the challenger. I should think it is. A sharp intake of

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breath to my right here. Briefly, I think it probably is all over. It

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feels like the momentum is with Corbyn. Let's be honest, the

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organisation is far better on the left of the Labour Party than what

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used to be right of the party or even the centre of the party. A lot

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of t never mind entryism but exitism going on. Exitism, is that just

:06:01.:06:06.

outside Exeter. I suppose the cynic would say last night was a squabble

:06:07.:06:11.

over who gets to lose in 2020? I don't think that deblight have have

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made any difference. People's minds were set at the start of the

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campaign, people joined either to support Corbyn or Smith and wherever

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you take the data from, and we have seen the polling, members of the

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party pre-Corbyn support Smith and those who joined to support Corbyn

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are still there. You could have had no debates in the contest and it

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probably wouldn't have affected the outcome. Well, the result will be on

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Saturday, the day before the Labour Conference begins on Liverpool on

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the Sunday. Now it is time for our daily quiz:

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Exsitentialism, what does it mean? No. That's for another day.

:06:47.:06:56.

the Chancellor Philip Hammond apparently dropped?

:06:57.:07:00.

B) fixing the roof while the sun shines?

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At the end of the show, Anne and Matt will give us

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We learned yesterday the Autumn Statement, Mr Hammond's first major

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act as Chancellor will be on November 23rd. Of course we will

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bring it all to you, here, live on the Daily Politics special on BBC

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Two. In her first major domestic policy

:07:36.:07:40.

speech this morning, the Prime Minister has set

:07:41.:07:43.

out her plans for education They are much more far-reaching,

:07:44.:07:50.

whether you agree or disagree is another matter. They are much more

:07:51.:07:53.

far-reaching than anybody thought. Including many of her Tory

:07:54.:07:54.

colleagues. Theresa May wants to end the ban

:07:55.:07:57.

on selective schools, introduced by Mr Blair in the last

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Labour Government and used to set out her vision for turning

:08:06.:08:08.

schools into "an engine Mrs May wants to allow new grammar

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schools to open and give the green light to existing grammar schools

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wanting to expand. In her speech she said she plans

:08:17.:08:18.

to make "this country a true meritocracy" and laid out

:08:19.:08:21.

a number of suggestions for how to achieve this,

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through more selection in schools. The Government will consult

:08:27.:08:29.

on proposals to require new or expanding grammar schools

:08:30.:08:34.

to take a proportion of pupils from lower income households,

:08:35.:08:36.

to establish new non-selective free schools, and to sponsor feeder

:08:37.:08:39.

schools in areas with a high density The Prime Minister also intends

:08:40.:08:42.

to change existing rules which mean religious groups opening free

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schools can only allocate 50% of places to children whose

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parents are of that faith. The rule has been seen

:08:58.:09:00.

as a particular barrier to the Catholic Church opening free

:09:01.:09:05.

schools because it didn't agree Downing Street say they will lift

:09:06.:09:07.

this cap, while also making faith schools do more to make

:09:08.:09:15.

sure their pupils integrate Theresa May made the case

:09:16.:09:18.

for her belief in the power of selective schools to raise

:09:19.:09:33.

standards in education - The debate over selective schools

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has raged for years but the only place it has got us to,

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is a place where selection exists if you are wealthy,

:09:40.:09:42.

if you can afford to go private We are effectively saying to poorer

:09:43.:09:45.

and some of the most disadvantaged children in our country

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that they can't have the kind of education their richer

:09:52.:09:53.

counterparts can enjoy. Where is the meritocracy

:09:54.:09:55.

in a system that advantages How can a meritocratic Britain let

:09:56.:10:01.

this position stand? We can talk now to our

:10:02.:10:08.

political correspondent, Alex Forsyth, who was watching

:10:09.:10:10.

the Prime Minister's speech earlier. Snr there was an expectation for

:10:11.:10:22.

when Mrs May became Prime Minister she would allow existing grammar

:10:23.:10:25.

schools to expand and maybe allow a few new ones. That has turned out to

:10:26.:10:31.

be far more wide-reaching than what we anticipated, isn't it? It has. It

:10:32.:10:36.

is radical, bold and bear in mind this is her first major domestic

:10:37.:10:42.

policy speech and she has gone out all guns blazing. I think her own

:10:43.:10:47.

opinion about grammar schools has been clear for a while, she has

:10:48.:10:50.

grammar schools in her constituency and wrote a blog a couple of years

:10:51.:10:53.

ago, encouraging the expansion of local grammar schools, so it is no

:10:54.:10:56.

big surprise she supports the concept of selective education and

:10:57.:10:59.

we have heard rumours about some sort of policy, about allowing

:11:00.:11:03.

existing grammar schools to ex-SPAD since she took office. On the

:11:04.:11:09.

grammar school front, yes, expansion of existing ones but also new ones,

:11:10.:11:12.

but it goes wider than that, encouraging new faith school places

:11:13.:11:15.

and new Catholic schools to open. About universities and independent

:11:16.:11:19.

schools having to get involved ape either set up or sponsor state

:11:20.:11:23.

schools as well. The real message from Theresa May today was directly

:11:24.:11:27.

counter--ing criticism about a return to the only binary system of

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the past, where you had grammar schools and then the secondary mod

:11:31.:11:33.

earns and very much felt that those who went to the grammar schools went

:11:34.:11:37.

on it to flourish and those who didn't were left behind it languish.

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What she was trying to say today was she wants to create a diverse school

:11:42.:11:45.

system where there is a range of options in every local area, so

:11:46.:11:48.

children can go to the best school for them, for their parents, for

:11:49.:11:51.

their skills, for their abilities. Of course that's not going to cancel

:11:52.:11:57.

all critty, we know the Labour Party and Lib Dems are opposed to this.

:11:58.:12:01.

Let me ask you this, where do we go from here? There is a will the that

:12:02.:12:06.

still has to be fleshed out, by no means, were all the questions

:12:07.:12:08.

answered this morning. There will have to be a long period of

:12:09.:12:13.

consultation I assume, as well, and will there have to be legislation,

:12:14.:12:17.

too? Do we have any idea of the timetable? We that we can expect

:12:18.:12:22.

further details on Monday when these proposals will be put before

:12:23.:12:25.

Parliament, so perhaps some more detail there. We also know that

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Theresa May's approach traditionally is a fairly cautious one. She

:12:29.:12:32.

welcomes the idea of consultation and I think what you are hearing is

:12:33.:12:36.

that this was a genuine consultation, this is her concept,

:12:37.:12:40.

her vision and ideas and then there will be a process of feedback and

:12:41.:12:44.

feeding into that before definitive proposals come forward. At some

:12:45.:12:47.

point this has to get through Parliament. We know because the

:12:48.:12:50.

opposition parties don't support the idea of selective education

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particularly, a number of Conservative MPs do like the idea of

:12:54.:12:57.

a return to grammar schools by by no mean always. Carmichael the Chair of

:12:58.:13:02.

the Education Select Committee, has expressed concerns about whether

:13:03.:13:04.

this really will help social mobility. The test is two-followed.

:13:05.:13:12.

Not just convincing those in the education establishment, and

:13:13.:13:14.

convincing parents, but she'll also have to get this through Parliament.

:13:15.:13:18.

Thank you very much for that. We'll keep across this big news story,

:13:19.:13:21.

hitting the British political system. In a moment we'll talks to

:13:22.:13:27.

the Schools Minister, Nick Gibb. But first, joining us is Lucy Powell,

:13:28.:13:32.

Labour's former Shadow Education Secretary. Well back. Is it your

:13:33.:13:36.

position, Labour's position to be against all selection by ability?

:13:37.:13:40.

Selection is not a good thing and that is what all the evidence shows

:13:41.:13:45.

us, that those who are most disadvantaged by a selective system

:13:46.:13:48.

are those from the poorest background. And that's why we will

:13:49.:13:52.

oppose this measure. We are opposed to selection. And we think this is a

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retro grade step. Because the biggest challenge that our schools

:13:59.:14:01.

system, our education system faces, it is the one it has faced for many,

:14:02.:14:06.

many years, is the long tale of underachievement. It's not what

:14:07.:14:11.

happens to the top 20% that do very well in our education system. It's

:14:12.:14:15.

the long tale of underachievement. And that gap was narrowing under the

:14:16.:14:19.

last Labour Government. It started to widen again under this

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Conservative Government and, introducing selection will take that

:14:25.:14:28.

gap wider still, because that's what all the evidence shows us, which is

:14:29.:14:33.

why the social mobilities tsar, the Government's own social mobility

:14:34.:14:37.

tsar, the Chief Inspector of Schools, the Chair of the Tory

:14:38.:14:41.

Education Select Committee, the Sutton Tru, the institution that

:14:42.:14:43.

looks most at social mobility are all against the measure. To be clear

:14:44.:14:48.

there, nothing in what Mrs May has said that you find appealing.

:14:49.:14:56.

Nothing? The only thing I liked in her speech today was that she

:14:57.:15:00.

rightly identified that free school meals is not the only measure of

:15:01.:15:04.

deprivation, and that there are many working poor families whose kids

:15:05.:15:09.

also need extra support at school. So if she wants to look at extending

:15:10.:15:15.

the pupil premium beyond those who are on free school meals to those

:15:16.:15:18.

that are the working poor families as well, I think that would be a

:15:19.:15:25.

very good thing to do indeed. So her analysis, in many ways, was right,

:15:26.:15:30.

the solution is totally wrong. But what is the principal objection to

:15:31.:15:34.

an element of selection by ability in a school system, which is famous,

:15:35.:15:41.

both in the private and in the state sector, for having selection by

:15:42.:15:46.

wealth? Why do we tolerate selection by wealth, and yet you are so

:15:47.:15:50.

against selection by ability, regardless of wealth? I am not for

:15:51.:15:56.

selection by wealth either, but that is what happens especially with

:15:57.:16:00.

grammar schools, where private Jewish in an spending extra money on

:16:01.:16:04.

going to a private prep school or having private Jewish and is the

:16:05.:16:13.

single biggest... It is not just -- private cherishing. You take the top

:16:14.:16:20.

500, and since in Britain, only 6% of pupils going to these state

:16:21.:16:25.

schools are on free school meals, which is a decent enough proxy of

:16:26.:16:29.

poor background, whereas the national averages over 16%, so even

:16:30.:16:35.

the copperheads of system is selecting on wealth. -- the

:16:36.:16:41.

comprehensive system. Why would a bit of selection on ability not be

:16:42.:16:46.

preferable? Firstly what we need to aim towards, there is an outstanding

:16:47.:16:54.

school in every community. These are figures after 13 years. Let me

:16:55.:16:58.

finish, the other thing we should be looking at is how we measure what a

:16:59.:17:02.

good school is. It is not simply about what results you get at the

:17:03.:17:07.

end of that school experience. Because if you come from an

:17:08.:17:10.

advantaged background where you are well supported, and you are able,

:17:11.:17:15.

you would do well at those schools, which is why those schools get the

:17:16.:17:21.

results. But the progress measure is what we should be judging a score

:17:22.:17:27.

by. My point to you, Lucy Powell, which I would like you to address

:17:28.:17:30.

because it is a really important issue is this, that we have

:17:31.:17:37.

substantial selection by wealth in our state system, in the state

:17:38.:17:40.

system. What are we going to do about that? We need to support for

:17:41.:17:47.

schools to improve. That's meaningless. I would say to you for

:17:48.:17:51.

example there is an outstanding school in the middle of Manchester

:17:52.:17:54.

that serves my constituency that just recently had an Ofsted

:17:55.:18:00.

outstanding in every single category. A deprived white working

:18:01.:18:07.

class community, they got outstanding results. Where they take

:18:08.:18:19.

their children from and where they get them to is significantly better

:18:20.:18:25.

than some of the middle-class competence of schools, certainly

:18:26.:18:28.

than many of the grammar schools, and actually in many cases many of

:18:29.:18:32.

the private schools as well. So I think if you flip out how you look

:18:33.:18:37.

at these things, middle-class parents choose middle-class schools

:18:38.:18:40.

combat what we need outstanding schools that are showing progress.

:18:41.:18:44.

All right, I am going to have to stop you there. But I am grateful

:18:45.:18:49.

for it, and I hope in the weeks ahead we will have plenty more time

:18:50.:18:54.

to talk. I notice your pet subject editors minus well. We will both go

:18:55.:18:58.

through it together, thank you, Lucy Powell. The schools Minister joins

:18:59.:19:08.

us from outside the rather splendid premises where Mrs May made her

:19:09.:19:11.

speech. What is your electoral mandate to do this? In the manifesto

:19:12.:19:17.

we said we wanted to increase the number of good school places,

:19:18.:19:23.

whether that is a grammar school. What the speech today was all about

:19:24.:19:26.

was creating more good school places. That is why we want the

:19:27.:19:30.

university 's help us establish good schools, we want the independent

:19:31.:19:32.

sector tout is why we want the universities to help us establish

:19:33.:19:34.

good schools, we want the independent sector tout us establish

:19:35.:19:37.

them to establish more good school places, whether that is by expanding

:19:38.:19:39.

or by establishing new grammar schools or buy them establishing

:19:40.:19:43.

primary schools or nonselective schools. The manifesto actually said

:19:44.:19:49.

we will allow all good schools to expand. They didn't say you are

:19:50.:19:54.

going to create new grammar schools. It didn't say you were going to

:19:55.:19:59.

allow selection of existing state schools to take place, or to create

:20:00.:20:05.

new grammar schools in areas where there are already combines its.

:20:06.:20:10.

That's not in the manifesto. So again, where is your electoral

:20:11.:20:15.

mandate? We want more good school places throughout the country, and

:20:16.:20:19.

over the last six years we have reformed our education system,

:20:20.:20:23.

bringing about improvements in schools that have historically

:20:24.:20:26.

underperformed. So now there are 1.4 million more pupils in schools that

:20:27.:20:29.

are good and outstanding, and we want to build on that. We want to

:20:30.:20:34.

build on those good school places and create more. We want to build on

:20:35.:20:39.

the diversity of our school system and allow people, young people from

:20:40.:20:43.

poor backgrounds, to have the same access to the kind of education that

:20:44.:20:48.

has historically only been available to those who can pay school fees or

:20:49.:20:53.

who can afford to move to areas that have outstanding schools. Already

:20:54.:20:57.

183 grammar schools left, why didn't they help for students? Why have

:20:58.:21:01.

they been largely irrelevant in helping poor students? They help

:21:02.:21:12.

those who attend them. What is the percentage? They are not perform...

:21:13.:21:21.

What is the percentage? It is 3% of children on free school meals,

:21:22.:21:25.

again, a good proxy or poverty, get into the existing grammar schools.

:21:26.:21:30.

The national average is 16%, so the existing grammar schools are doing

:21:31.:21:36.

very little for social mobility. I absolutely agree with that. When you

:21:37.:21:42.

see the details that we published on Monday, you will see there are

:21:43.:21:45.

conditions attached. We want grammar schools to be doing more to work

:21:46.:21:49.

with their feeder grammar schools. A lot of children from poorer families

:21:50.:21:52.

are not applying the grammar schools. Some of the feeder grammar

:21:53.:21:56.

schools are not giving their children the prior operations they

:21:57.:22:00.

need to get into those grammar schools. We want those issues

:22:01.:22:04.

addressed and actually you can find grammar schools around the country

:22:05.:22:09.

that are working very hard to reach out to children from poorer

:22:10.:22:12.

families, and they are delivering that objective and getting more poor

:22:13.:22:15.

children into those grammar schools, and that is what want to see

:22:16.:22:23.

throughout the school system. Let's ask you about some details. Who will

:22:24.:22:31.

decide to form a new grammar school? That can be as now, the Free School

:22:32.:22:37.

programme is all about encouraging groups of teachers or parents or a

:22:38.:22:42.

charitable foundation, or existing outstanding or good schools. We do

:22:43.:22:46.

encourage them now. So Free schools can become grammar schools, is that

:22:47.:22:52.

right? Existing ones and new free schools can become grammar schools?

:22:53.:22:55.

Yes, what this is about is about taking away a barrier to

:22:56.:23:01.

establishing good news schools. We are not talking about going back to

:23:02.:23:05.

the binary system of the 1950s and 60s. We have a very diverse

:23:06.:23:09.

education system now, where 85% of schools are good or outstanding, and

:23:10.:23:12.

we want to add an element of diversity so that we can be sure

:23:13.:23:18.

that poor children, bright, poor children, are being given the same

:23:19.:23:22.

opportunities, no matter where they live in the country, children who

:23:23.:23:26.

live in Kent for Bucks, or who can afford private education, we want

:23:27.:23:30.

poor children to have those same opportunities. That is what this is

:23:31.:23:36.

about. Let me ask you this. If an existing comprehensive desired --

:23:37.:23:44.

decides a percentage of its intake will be selected on ability, does

:23:45.:23:49.

that make it a grammar school? That would make it what is called a

:23:50.:23:56.

bilateral school. A what? A partially selective school or a

:23:57.:24:02.

bilateral school. They have already been selecting 35%, for example

:24:03.:24:06.

Watford Grammar boys school, and Watford Grammar school for girls,

:24:07.:24:10.

they are partially selective, 75% of the pupils are of comprehensive

:24:11.:24:16.

intake. There are other schools around the country like that. We

:24:17.:24:20.

want to have a diverse system, so that an academy can decide to select

:24:21.:24:27.

a smaller percentage of pupils. What sort of percentage are we looking

:24:28.:24:32.

at? You are saying some schools, existing conferences may be to do

:24:33.:24:38.

some selection by ability, what sort of percentage are looking at? Like

:24:39.:24:48.

Watford, like as Sean school. They select 12 .5, 15% of their pupils,

:24:49.:24:52.

up to 35% already do so. There aren't that many of them but it is

:24:53.:24:56.

an existing, historical type of school that that exist now. What we

:24:57.:25:00.

are saying in the White Paper, the green paper that we will publish on

:25:01.:25:06.

Monday, is that we want there to be more diversity in our school system,

:25:07.:25:10.

so we can make sure that every child from whatever background... I

:25:11.:25:16.

understand, you have made that point, everybody has that aim, the

:25:17.:25:23.

question is always the means. Is it your intention, as selection

:25:24.:25:26.

spreads, with extending existing grammar schools, new grammar schools

:25:27.:25:31.

and existing comprehensives allowed to do an element of selection, isn't

:25:32.:25:35.

still your intention that selection will still be done primarily by the

:25:36.:25:39.

11 plus and the spread of the 11 plus? These are the kinds of details

:25:40.:25:46.

that we will be consulting on. Pretty big detail. After Monday,

:25:47.:25:50.

when we publish the green paper. This is a government that wants to

:25:51.:25:53.

consult widely on policy objectives, and those are the kinds of details.

:25:54.:26:00.

The 11 plus surely is not fit for purpose? Sorry to interrupt, the 11

:26:01.:26:06.

plus is surely not fit for purpose, as something that can determine

:26:07.:26:11.

pupils future is at the age of 11, with a one winner takes all type

:26:12.:26:17.

test? What the Prime Minister spoke about today was allowing flexibility

:26:18.:26:21.

for new grammar schools, so pupils can enter later at 14 or 16, as well

:26:22.:26:26.

as at age 11. We also want a process that doesn't allow pupils to cheated

:26:27.:26:32.

to get through that selection process and there are grammar

:26:33.:26:35.

schools already, particularly in Kent, that by working on Jupiter

:26:36.:26:39.

probe selection processes in those schools. Good luck with that. We are

:26:40.:26:43.

actually over time, but I have one more question for you it is such an

:26:44.:26:46.

important issue. Isn't the danger you face of the desire for more

:26:47.:26:52.

social mobility that the new grammar schools, the extension of existing

:26:53.:26:59.

grammar schools, introducing more selection on ability into

:27:00.:27:02.

comprehensives, that that is all more likely to happen if it happens

:27:03.:27:07.

at all in already existing middle-class, Tory areas, and that

:27:08.:27:11.

it will simply make the educational divide even wider? No, because we're

:27:12.:27:18.

not going back to a binary system. We have a school system now where

:27:19.:27:23.

schools have improved unrecognisably over the last exteriors, and even

:27:24.:27:27.

beyond that. So we now have a system where 80 to 85% of all schools are

:27:28.:27:32.

graded good and outstanding, 1.4 million more pupils today in good

:27:33.:27:36.

and outstanding schools than in 2010. The whole reform programme

:27:37.:27:39.

over the last six years has been about school improvement and it has

:27:40.:27:44.

been working. But it is a very diverse education system, so what

:27:45.:27:47.

this is about is about making sure that that diversity and genuine

:27:48.:27:51.

choice for parents isn't just confined to those middle-class areas

:27:52.:27:55.

you are talking about. We want it to spread the part of the country where

:27:56.:27:59.

the 1.25 million pupils who don't have access to a good or outstanding

:28:00.:28:03.

school, where they live. That is the objective, to spread it right across

:28:04.:28:07.

the country. We will be hoping to talk to you a lot more on this

:28:08.:28:14.

subject, Nick did. You have been in and out of the sun and shadows while

:28:15.:28:17.

you have been doing this and I know it is not easy, even more difficult

:28:18.:28:19.

for the cameraman to keep the lighting proper, so we thank you. --

:28:20.:28:29.

Nick Gibb, the schools minister. This is a massive reform of the

:28:30.:28:33.

school system, you almost feel as if it was being done on the back of a

:28:34.:28:37.

fag packet. There is that, and I think the context matters, this is

:28:38.:28:43.

what Theresa May has set herself different from her predecessor, to

:28:44.:28:50.

rise above the Brexit debate and set herself as a traditional Tory. But

:28:51.:28:54.

in her defence, I would say in education where state schools are

:28:55.:28:57.

failing, you do need to be radical about tackling a lack of attainment,

:28:58.:29:02.

and if I lived in an area and I had children and there was a good

:29:03.:29:04.

grammar school there, whatever I thought of it I will try to get my

:29:05.:29:08.

child into it. Now education has changed, thanks to academies and

:29:09.:29:11.

free schools, I hate to agree with Nick did, but it is not a binary

:29:12.:29:21.

system any more. -- I hate to agree with Nick Gibb. So you were a bit

:29:22.:29:28.

disappointed in Lucy Powell's reaction, which was a traditional

:29:29.:29:34.

Labour Party reaction? It was. Labour has entrenched itself in a

:29:35.:29:37.

pro combines a system where actually a lot of the people who espouse it

:29:38.:29:41.

did not go to comprehensives themselves. There is a scene in the

:29:42.:29:46.

original Batman movie with a joker sister Batman, where does he get all

:29:47.:29:50.

of his wonderful prose? Where did Theresa May get all of these ideas?

:29:51.:29:55.

She was Home Secretary, she has only been Prime Minister for a couple of

:29:56.:29:58.

months. Part of that time was walking the hills of Switzerland.

:29:59.:30:03.

Has she been secretly cooking all this up, or has she got an

:30:04.:30:08.

educational guru? I think I can answer your Batman question, it is

:30:09.:30:11.

what she has thought of her life, she didn't need to cook it up. That

:30:12.:30:15.

is the DNA of much of the Tory party, also Nick Webb, who until

:30:16.:30:22.

today was out there promoting academies and they would we did not

:30:23.:30:27.

hear once, possibly in passing -- Nick Gibb. The focus has turned to a

:30:28.:30:31.

return to grammar schools. I don't think it is back up the fag packet

:30:32.:30:36.

territory, Andrew, but there are so much complexity that you drew out in

:30:37.:30:40.

that interview with Nick Gibb, what is the age of selection? What is the

:30:41.:30:46.

manner of selection? What is the impact, and it was not addressed at

:30:47.:30:50.

all to the academies programme. We heard that school improvement was

:30:51.:30:54.

all going very well but if it was, why not simply tweak that, have

:30:55.:30:57.

greater selection perhaps within the academies programme, 20% roughly is

:30:58.:31:03.

what a lot of them get away with at the moment, move that upwards, why

:31:04.:31:06.

say you are going to bring back a grammar school, which as you pointed

:31:07.:31:09.

out seems to require a moment when you saw the sheep from the goats?

:31:10.:31:12.

That would be the very divisive thing. Questions, questions,

:31:13.:31:14.

questions. Earlier this week a group of British

:31:15.:31:17.

peers and Christian leaders travelled to Syria to meet the

:31:18.:31:19.

Syrian president, Bashar al-Assad, and appeal for him to protect

:31:20.:31:22.

the lives of Christians The visit was criticised

:31:23.:31:24.

by MPs, for strengthening Soon afterwards, footage emerged

:31:25.:31:27.

showing what appeared to be the aftermath of a chlorine gas

:31:28.:31:30.

attack in Syria's On Wednesday, the Foreign Secretary,

:31:31.:31:34.

Boris Johnson, met Syrian opposition leaders in London to push

:31:35.:31:41.

for a resumption of peace talks It is obviously critical

:31:42.:31:43.

that the world, and all the interlocutors in Geneva,

:31:44.:31:52.

should be able to see that there is a future for Syria

:31:53.:31:54.

that goes beyond the Assad regime, and think that was one of the big

:31:55.:32:03.

questions that for years, frankly, we've been unable

:32:04.:32:06.

to answer satisfactory. What happens when

:32:07.:32:11.

Assad finally goes? And of course there is widespread

:32:12.:32:15.

agreement across the world that he must go, including

:32:16.:32:18.

with the Russians. There has been less clarity about

:32:19.:32:24.

the post-Assad vision for Syria. We've been joined by Caroline Cox,

:32:25.:32:29.

who was one of the group of British peers and Christian leaders who met

:32:30.:32:33.

Bashar Al-Assad this week. What did you hope to achieve by

:32:34.:32:47.

meeting the Syrian dictator? We have been heavily criticised for that. I

:32:48.:32:51.

have three quick answers. One if if you don't meet someone you can't

:32:52.:32:55.

raise criticism. Secondly we were invited by Muslim and Christian

:32:56.:33:00.

leaders. We spent two hours with Assad, we spent five days, listening

:33:01.:33:04.

to the local people. It was a tiny part of the visit but there is

:33:05.:33:07.

double standards in the crit civil. I work in Sudan, the Government is

:33:08.:33:11.

bombing its people there. Nobody makes the criticism. I understand

:33:12.:33:14.

that. But my question is - what did you hope to achieve? We raised our

:33:15.:33:17.

concerns with the President but we really went to hear the people and

:33:18.:33:21.

to hear their points. I understand that but I am anticipate talking

:33:22.:33:25.

about the meeting with Assad. We were able to raise our concerns and

:33:26.:33:28.

they are serious concerns. He had a chance to respond. We still have

:33:29.:33:32.

those concerns. But we have been seen to hear, it is important. You

:33:33.:33:36.

can't judge from a distance, you have to meet someone to hear

:33:37.:33:40.

criticisms. Did you come away, did you believe him, if he said he

:33:41.:33:44.

understood and would act on your concerns? He said he was perfectly

:33:45.:33:49.

prepared to have internationally supervised elections. One of the

:33:50.:33:52.

concerns we had from the people, the Syrian people have a right to choose

:33:53.:33:56.

their own leadership. They have to right to elections. They are very

:33:57.:33:59.

worried... Did you believe him? I do. Why? He has never had them

:34:00.:34:04.

before, except ones he has fixed? He said international observers but in

:34:05.:34:08.

the meantime the Syrian people have two concerns: The first is they have

:34:09.:34:11.

a right to choose their own leader and secondly they are very worried

:34:12.:34:14.

about the Government's approximately sieve forced regime change. The

:34:15.:34:19.

British Government's policy? Yes. These are all Assad talking points.

:34:20.:34:23.

I mean you have come away from it, we have this picture of you all

:34:24.:34:27.

meeting him there, this is the man that drops barrel bombs on people,

:34:28.:34:32.

and chemical weapons and chlorine is now being used and you come away and

:34:33.:34:37.

in your statement there, essentially is a mouth piece for this regime.

:34:38.:34:43.

You talk about the Syrian people must choose their own leader. That's

:34:44.:34:47.

right. It is unexceptional that he says that for a particular reason.

:34:48.:34:52.

You even quote the senior doctor's council. There are 4,000 doctors in

:34:53.:34:57.

Aleppo. The medical needs of the vast majority are impacted by the

:34:58.:35:01.

refusal of the international community to engage with the

:35:02.:35:05.

government. That's another Assad propaganda talking point. And you

:35:06.:35:09.

attack the Western media narrative, which is at the core of Assad's

:35:10.:35:15.

anti-Western talking points. You have become a mouth piece of this

:35:16.:35:21.

dictator. No, spokesmen, people who were there, heard the people, saw

:35:22.:35:26.

what happened on the day when they were criticisms. But the militant

:35:27.:35:32.

opposition groups also use chemical weapons, it is not reported. It was

:35:33.:35:38.

not reported. On one of the days we were there, when reported Assad on

:35:39.:35:41.

chemical weaponsical weapons there were four attacks on civilians by

:35:42.:35:44.

opposition groups, many who were burnt alive. It wasn't reported.

:35:45.:35:48.

There were four missiles on Aleppo on the day we were there, it is not

:35:49.:35:52.

reported. As you will understand, operating in Syria is very difficult

:35:53.:35:57.

for the media but I would suggest, where there are atrocities, the

:35:58.:36:00.

media has reported atrocities on both sides and for you to come in,

:36:01.:36:05.

many people, with whom we met, ie, Mr Assad's supporters, believe that

:36:06.:36:10.

the partisanship of many Western media narratives, that's an exact

:36:11.:36:16.

propaganda phrase coming out of the Syrian regime, Western media

:36:17.:36:19.

narratives. The Western media is reporting barrel bombs and it is

:36:20.:36:23.

reporting the beheading of Isis, where it can. And with great

:36:24.:36:26.

difficulty and many journalists have lost their lives in Syria. Agree. I

:36:27.:36:32.

have lost a colleague in Syria and you come back, spouting propaganda

:36:33.:36:35.

lines from a dictator? With great respect. We risked our lives to

:36:36.:36:39.

listen to the people. To hear the people. We met two of the ministers

:36:40.:36:45.

in opposition, not just President Assad. We met two opposition

:36:46.:36:49.

ministers and they are deeply concerned about the British

:36:50.:36:51.

Government's commitment to regime change. It'll be another Iraq. It is

:36:52.:36:57.

already. It'll be another one without re cystence. It is worse. It

:36:58.:37:01.

is worse for the people as it is now. They want a peaceful

:37:02.:37:05.

resolution. We tried to be their voices, we risked our lives to

:37:06.:37:10.

listen to their voices. You had seen Mr Assad. I shouldn't think your

:37:11.:37:15.

life is as much at risk than the people you are talking B it seems to

:37:16.:37:19.

come close to the ter trif useful idiots -- territory of. We didn't

:37:20.:37:25.

need to send an all-party group to listen to their concerns. Didn't it

:37:26.:37:30.

occur to you that this image, or indeed the Russian story which I

:37:31.:37:34.

notice isn't pryer advertised in your support. It seems an extremely

:37:35.:37:39.

foolhardy mission. With great respect, there is some security but

:37:40.:37:42.

anyone could be hilt by a missile. We responded to invitations from the

:37:43.:37:48.

grand mufti, and the Christian leaders to go and hear their

:37:49.:37:51.

interpretation of events. We went to listen. It is about how you go and

:37:52.:38:00.

what you bring back. Allowing an photo, in official gargs, there is

:38:01.:38:05.

nothing wrong with talking to empoo, Tony Benn met Saddam Hussein, and

:38:06.:38:09.

opening up a diplomatic route is useful however allowing a photocall

:38:10.:38:14.

which looks like Western religious leaders support Assad is a major

:38:15.:38:20.

propaganda own goal and secondly to come back and talk about Assad as a

:38:21.:38:25.

way of partnering solution, there is no solution that is meanfulful will

:38:26.:38:29.

that involves him. He has to g first helping to move Isis, and a

:38:30.:38:34.

transition period but there is know way Syria can survive with Assad. He

:38:35.:38:39.

has to go. I'll hold auto out, I was quite tough with the Baroness in my

:38:40.:38:44.

interview, and of course both of you don't agree, so it is only fair that

:38:45.:38:48.

I give Caroline the final word on this. We wanted to meet the people

:38:49.:38:52.

of Syria. We were invited by our own leaders, civilian leaders. We spent

:38:53.:38:54.

five days in very dangerous places, with the people on the ground, and

:38:55.:38:58.

we were in Aleppo when a university was bombed. We met the "ordinary"

:38:59.:39:02.

people. We want to be their Is vo. What comes through, as you said it

:39:03.:39:06.

is difficult for the media to get there and meet the people. It is

:39:07.:39:09.

very dangerous. We did risk our lifts but we were prepared to do

:39:10.:39:13.

that to be the voice of the people who invited us. I wish more people

:39:14.:39:16.

would go and be their voice. Everyone hears what Assad says. We

:39:17.:39:20.

want it hear what the people say and the people's concern is they do not

:39:21.:39:24.

be want regime change brought by the outside world. They want to develop

:39:25.:39:28.

and vote for their own future, their freedom. Thank you for letting me be

:39:29.:39:36.

their voice. We are glad you made it back.

:39:37.:39:37.

In Scotland the SNP government has run into trouble with its plans

:39:38.:39:40.

for a "named person" scheme, which would assign a specific person

:39:41.:39:42.

who isn't their parent to every child under the age of 18

:39:43.:39:45.

who would have responsibility for their welfare.

:39:46.:39:47.

The idea behind the scheme is to protect vulnerable children

:39:48.:39:52.

from abuse and neglect but critics say it's an intrusion

:39:53.:39:54.

Earlier in the summer, implementation of the scheme

:39:55.:40:00.

was halted when the Supreme Court ruled that plans for data

:40:01.:40:04.

-- the Supreme Court fted United Kingdom. Or at least not compliant

:40:05.:40:15.

with the European Court of Human Rights.

:40:16.:40:16.

Yesterday Scotland's Deputy First Minister, John Swinney,

:40:17.:40:17.

confirmed the SNP is still committed to the scheme but wants to delay

:40:18.:40:20.

That was met with criticism from opposition politicians.

:40:21.:40:23.

For the avoidance of any doubt, the government remains

:40:24.:40:31.

absolutely committed to the Named Persons service.

:40:32.:40:35.

For that reason, the Scottish government will undertake

:40:36.:40:37.

a three-month period of intense engagement in Scotland.

:40:38.:40:42.

We will take input from practitioners, as well as parents,

:40:43.:40:45.

charities, as well as young people, those who support the Named Persons

:40:46.:40:48.

policy, and those who have concerns about it.

:40:49.:40:53.

The court stated that, even after the information sharing

:40:54.:40:55.

provisions are sorted out, the Named Persons scheme

:40:56.:40:57.

is still in danger of constituting a disproportionate, and therefore

:40:58.:40:59.

an unlawful, interference with family life.

:41:00.:41:04.

It seems absurd, given that a 16-year-old can vote, marry,

:41:05.:41:06.

To remove them would be a strong signal that, while the government

:41:07.:41:12.

is not surrendering the Named Persons policy,

:41:13.:41:17.

it is listening, and not only to the Supreme Court.

:41:18.:41:27.

We did ask the SNP for an interview, but no one from the Scottish

:41:28.:41:31.

We've been joined from Glasgow by the Scottish Conservatives'

:41:32.:41:35.

Welcome to the Daily Politics. Now, the Supreme Court ruled in certain

:41:36.:41:46.

areas that if they want to proceed this had to be changed. John Swinney

:41:47.:41:51.

is now making the changes to comply with the Supreme Court ruling. He's

:41:52.:41:55.

listening to concerns. He has delayed the introduction and's not

:41:56.:41:58.

going to do it before the summer. Isn't that how you would expect a

:41:59.:42:04.

responsible government to act? No, actually, because he hasn't been

:42:05.:42:08.

listening at all previously and the real problem from yesterday was that

:42:09.:42:13.

he told councils to continue developing and implementing the

:42:14.:42:17.

policy at the same time as there are clear problems about its

:42:18.:42:22.

implementation. So we have grave concerns, specifically for those

:42:23.:42:26.

councils that have been piloting this scheme before, and who have

:42:27.:42:31.

been sharing data with the professionals, sometimes against the

:42:32.:42:34.

consent of parents, and that is something that has been ruled

:42:35.:42:38.

unlawful by the Supreme Court. So there is a major issue here. But,

:42:39.:42:44.

less than two miles to the east, behind you, in Glasgow, is some of

:42:45.:42:50.

the worst deprivation and child deprivation in Europe. Not just in

:42:51.:42:59.

Britain. In Europe. What is wrong with the state of appointing someone

:43:00.:43:05.

to try to keep these kids who often have inadequate parents, patients

:43:06.:43:10.

who have never had a job, often been on drugs. What is wrong with the

:43:11.:43:14.

state trying to appoint someone to look after these kids a bit better

:43:15.:43:18.

and maybe even give them a hand up? Well there are two problems wrong

:43:19.:43:21.

with the policy. Of course the intention is to try to help those

:43:22.:43:24.

families who particularly need it, and great problem with this policy

:43:25.:43:28.

is that it has been rolled out on a universal basis. Thereby taking away

:43:29.:43:33.

a lot of the resources which are greatly needed for the families that

:43:34.:43:37.

you have just mentioned and, you know, I think to spend a lot of

:43:38.:43:41.

money on families where there weren't problems, I don't think

:43:42.:43:44.

that's responsible government. But the second issue about this is that

:43:45.:43:48.

we are in a situation where the implication is that the state knows

:43:49.:43:52.

better than the parent how to bring up the child. That is what has got

:43:53.:43:56.

this policy. In some cases that may be true, of course. I don't accept

:43:57.:44:01.

that, Andrew. I think one of the reasons why the Scottish public has

:44:02.:44:05.

turned so firmly against this policy is for that very reason. It has had

:44:06.:44:10.

this undertone that the state knows better than the family. There are

:44:11.:44:15.

very good laws already, about how we conduct child protection, for

:44:16.:44:18.

example, the data protection laws seem to be relatively satisfactory

:44:19.:44:28.

in this country. Barnardo's, a famous children'ser charity that

:44:29.:44:31.

everyone has respect for, they are in favour of this. They think

:44:32.:44:35.

helicopter' help and they accuse opponents like you - the charity not

:44:36.:44:41.

the Scottish Government - of inadequate and unjustified

:44:42.:44:44.

statement. They, the people who have to deal with the vulnerable

:44:45.:44:48.

children, think this will help. Precisely because it is the

:44:49.:44:53.

vulnerable children that these charnts and many other beyond

:44:54.:44:56.

Barnardo's, gave favourable responses to the policy. The

:44:57.:44:59.

difficulty is that the vast majority of parents and many practitioners,

:45:00.:45:04.

in fact an increasing number of practitioners across Scotland, their

:45:05.:45:07.

caseload has increased because it is a universal policy and therefore,

:45:08.:45:10.

they feel they are letting down many of the children that we most need to

:45:11.:45:16.

help. I'll bring in Matt Forde. I understand that you quite like this

:45:17.:45:18.

policy. I think it is a good idea completely

:45:19.:45:31.

disagree. We know that there are cases that the state doesn't know

:45:32.:45:34.

any better what to do the job than the parent. Poor children, through

:45:35.:45:42.

no open but only -- brought up not only in poverty but with

:45:43.:45:48.

dysfunctional families. The state is operating on the behalf of society

:45:49.:45:52.

as it is when the police or an alert is called. It reminds me of Gordon

:45:53.:45:56.

Brown idea that never came to a fruition, which is if those centres

:45:57.:46:00.

for young parents. They were seen as truck only on and I had issues with

:46:01.:46:05.

them but on some level, if we as a society continue to allow children

:46:06.:46:08.

to be brought up not only in poverty but in chaos with no help

:46:09.:46:12.

whatsoever, not effective how, then we are all failing. I will come back

:46:13.:46:18.

to you, but what is your take on this? It is a perfectly sensible,

:46:19.:46:22.

thoughtful policy, it should have been a nudge policy, one that people

:46:23.:46:27.

will nudge towards doing. The attempt to make it legally binding,

:46:28.:46:32.

and the argument in Scotland is the problem, why do you have a policy

:46:33.:46:36.

clearly targeted on families who are in some trouble, which is then

:46:37.:46:40.

imposed on absolutely everyone? You can sue them why there is a push

:46:41.:46:44.

back that says the state is too active here, and indeed what would

:46:45.:46:47.

be the liabilities, what are the clear responsibilities of this

:46:48.:46:55.

person? It all gets a bit vague. A final point to you, from the

:46:56.:46:59.

Highlands, from Mr Alexander, who is head of learning and care at the

:47:00.:47:05.

Highland Council, they have been implementing this policy I

:47:06.:47:10.

understand from 2009. He says we have fewer children being reported

:47:11.:47:15.

to the children's reporter, we have fewer children offending, what is

:47:16.:47:24.

wrong with that? That is good, but the policy that Mr Alexander has

:47:25.:47:27.

implemented very successfully is largely to do with the way in which

:47:28.:47:31.

the services in the Highland are structured, different from many

:47:32.:47:34.

other local authorities, and I think his only to ship has been very

:47:35.:47:39.

successful. But the actual policy that has been implemented was not

:47:40.:47:42.

ecstatically what the Scottish Government was my policy was going

:47:43.:47:45.

to be, had it been introduced on the 31st of August. There are serious

:47:46.:47:49.

differences between that, and the real problem for many people in

:47:50.:47:54.

Scotland is that this policy does not have the trust of the public. It

:47:55.:47:58.

does not have the trust of many of the practitioners, and that is

:47:59.:48:01.

Scottish Government has got itself into difficulty. Thank you for

:48:02.:48:05.

joining us. Today would have been the day

:48:06.:48:08.

we found out who was the new leader of Conservative Party, if only

:48:09.:48:13.

Andrea Leadsom hadn't pulled out. We would have had more leadership

:48:14.:48:16.

races. If you're disappointed you missed

:48:17.:48:20.

out on a leadership battle, fear not, because Ukip are also

:48:21.:48:23.

balloting for a new leader. The front runner Diane James seems

:48:24.:48:25.

so confident, she hasn't been taking part in any of the hustings

:48:26.:48:28.

organised over the summer. Our Ellie has been

:48:29.:48:32.

meeting the candidates. Hello and welcome to this Daily

:48:33.:48:47.

Politics who is going to be the next leader of Ukip special. We meet the

:48:48.:48:53.

candidates wanting to follow in those very big footsteps of Nigel

:48:54.:48:56.

Farage. Now we could have come to the various hustings events that

:48:57.:48:59.

were being held over the summer, but where's the fun in that, plus we

:49:00.:49:03.

miss them, so instead the leadership hopefuls had finally come to us.

:49:04.:49:12.

Please welcome Lisa Duffy. Bill Etheridge. Lewis Jones. Philip

:49:13.:49:24.

Walton. And Diane James. And Diane James. This really is like a Ukip

:49:25.:49:34.

hustings. First question to all the candidates, who are you? I am Lisa

:49:35.:49:43.

Duffy, I have been a part of Ukip at. I am somebody that really

:49:44.:49:49.

champions the people, I have built the high election is up to our party

:49:50.:49:57.

and put Ukip on the map from a by-election and Weekley I am a

:49:58.:50:01.

long-standing member of Ukip. I have contested about 11 elections and

:50:02.:50:06.

been involved in a number of campaigns, ranging from female

:50:07.:50:11.

circumcision to saving a local art deco cinema. I did 20 years in the

:50:12.:50:21.

still trade before losing my job in Gordon Brown's recession, I have

:50:22.:50:25.

strong opinions, strong views, pretty radical but also done to her.

:50:26.:50:36.

I am Philip Broughton. I work in a supermarket. I have real life

:50:37.:50:41.

experience as well as political experience. What is your vision to

:50:42.:50:46.

Ukip in three words? Friendship, unity success. Three words, team,

:50:47.:50:56.

challenge, leadership. Radical, alternative, political movement. I

:50:57.:51:00.

believe this party has to stand for freedom, fairness and opportunity.

:51:01.:51:05.

Who is your political hero? Ronald Reagan, a great communicator who do

:51:06.:51:09.

things with a sense of humour but was also revolutionary and strong.

:51:10.:51:14.

In this leadership campaign I am determined to win one to him. That

:51:15.:51:17.

would be Boudicca, for having the courage to take on the Roman

:51:18.:51:23.

Imperial Army three times, and when to stop fantastic. My other would be

:51:24.:51:29.

the former leader of Singapore. Winston Churchill for defeating the

:51:30.:51:34.

Nazis, one of the worst evils ever seen, and Nigel Farage forgetting

:51:35.:51:38.

this country's freedom back in the referendum. Probably Winston

:51:39.:51:42.

Churchill. A man of many talents, who had his own personal challenges

:51:43.:51:45.

but he made a difference. He was not afraid to speak his mind and that is

:51:46.:51:49.

what you will get from Lisa Duffy. If Ukip are a drink, what would it

:51:50.:51:55.

be? Deceptively seductive but get you drunk. Ruby mild would be my

:51:56.:52:01.

favourite, strong and powerful, lovely taste, smooth and make you

:52:02.:52:05.

feel great. A very exciting fizzy drink. I think it is a fine red

:52:06.:52:11.

wine, one that is maturing over time. We are a political party that

:52:12.:52:15.

is 23 years old now and that bottle is ready to open an tekkers to the

:52:16.:52:21.

next level. Still alcoholic, though? It is still alcoholic but I am not

:52:22.:52:25.

an alcoholic drink to be fair expect that concludes this special. We will

:52:26.:52:29.

find out the result at conference on Friday 16 September. To all the

:52:30.:52:32.

candidates, thank you. We should say we invited Diane James

:52:33.:52:39.

to take part, but she declined. We've been joined by Owen Bennett,

:52:40.:52:45.

political reporter at the Huffington Post and author

:52:46.:52:47.

of the book 'Following Farage'. The candidates, find people putting

:52:48.:52:56.

up a great case, the one we have heard of of course was not there.

:52:57.:53:02.

Two others we have heard of, Paul Nuttall and Steven Woolfe are not

:53:03.:53:08.

even running. What is going on? Very good question. Paul Nuttall didn't

:53:09.:53:11.

want to stand for family reasons, he has a young family and I think he

:53:12.:53:14.

looked at all the work that was needed into going in to make Ukip

:53:15.:53:22.

bedpost Brexit party and thought it was not him. Steven Woolfe did want

:53:23.:53:26.

it but through a series of calamities and other errors he did

:53:27.:53:29.

not manage to get his application in on time. Not a great job

:53:30.:53:34.

application. If you are trying to run on a platform of competence, and

:53:35.:53:39.

can't apply on time, it is not a good look. Diane James managed to

:53:40.:53:50.

avoid all of the hustings, thank you for the exclusive Huffington Post

:53:51.:53:54.

story we got. She is going to run it like a coronation. Because she think

:53:55.:54:00.

she has got it? The Ukip voters who are voting will go to the hustings,

:54:01.:54:04.

and all of the other candidates are there, just to keep bashing her

:54:05.:54:09.

every time. There is a lot of Ukip people that think their future lies,

:54:10.:54:12.

they have more opportunities now in the north of inland than they have

:54:13.:54:17.

in the South. In other words, that Labour is more vulnerable to Ukip in

:54:18.:54:20.

the north, voted heavily for Brexit, than the South, where there was some

:54:21.:54:25.

evidence that previous Ukip voters have gone back to the Tories. But

:54:26.:54:30.

Diane James is very southern, isn't she, do they not need a northern

:54:31.:54:35.

candidate for this? Absolutely, one of her nicknames is queen of the

:54:36.:54:41.

South, because she is seen as not going north of the Watford gap. When

:54:42.:54:45.

the campaign kicked off she was in France. She had to get someone to

:54:46.:54:48.

send in her application on her other half so there is the suggestion she

:54:49.:54:53.

doesn't even want this job. If you go on her website and look for

:54:54.:54:55.

reasons why she wants to stands, the first two are reason she doesn't

:54:56.:55:00.

want to. I think you are completely right, it needed a strong Northern

:55:01.:55:05.

voice to really take it on in those Labour heartland areas. Just

:55:06.:55:07.

remember the membership was mainly in the south. What you get with a

:55:08.:55:15.

lot of parties, the membership and the electorate, they are two

:55:16.:55:19.

slightly different beasts. In a way it is quite amazing what is

:55:20.:55:22.

happening to them, if it hadn't been to Ukip, there would not have been a

:55:23.:55:27.

referendum, that is fair to say. There could still be post-referendum

:55:28.:55:32.

opportunities for a party like Ukip, to kill early given the state of the

:55:33.:55:36.

Labour Party and how well they did in the referendum in the north. They

:55:37.:55:39.

did pretty well in the general election in the North too. But it

:55:40.:55:43.

doesn't look like they are moving in a way that will capitalise on that,

:55:44.:55:46.

it could be a big missed opportunity. It could be, but if you

:55:47.:55:50.

look at that range of candidates, and we are all having a bit of fun.

:55:51.:55:57.

It is a dream. Couple of years ago, these were grumpy men from the

:55:58.:56:02.

south. Gin and tonics. In fairness to Ukip, you have the likely lad

:56:03.:56:12.

from the north-east, we have quite a strong, feisty panel, a professional

:56:13.:56:17.

woman, two quite strong women. If you put up a lot of other candidates

:56:18.:56:22.

who run in other parties on the first time out, they don't look too

:56:23.:56:25.

professional either. The Diane James thing I can't comment on. I think

:56:26.:56:30.

they have got strength in depth but they need a figurehead whose

:56:31.:56:32.

national and I would be very surprised if one day it is not

:56:33.:56:36.

passed back to dear Rod Nigel Farage. Surely not? He has only

:56:37.:56:40.

changed his mind three times. That was on the night of the referendum!

:56:41.:56:48.

What is the future the Ukip? I agree that this is a missed opportunity.

:56:49.:56:52.

What we are seeing is something that affects all parties, people look to

:56:53.:56:57.

leaders and see how exhausting it is, the personal sacrifices

:56:58.:57:01.

required, not just a lack of family life and friendship that the abuse

:57:02.:57:04.

you get regardless of your political persuasion. What we are seeing is

:57:05.:57:06.

the manifestation of what we're seeing elsewhere, the fact that Paul

:57:07.:57:11.

Nuttall did not want it, Diane James effectually saying we do not want

:57:12.:57:15.

it, and Nigel Farage, the exceptional level of energy he has,

:57:16.:57:19.

it was all down to the fact that firstly he rebranded Ukip early

:57:20.:57:23.

doors. People saw it as BNP like and his personality allowed him to

:57:24.:57:27.

overcome that. His relentless bags of energy that very few people have.

:57:28.:57:32.

Even when he falls out of a plane. Indy. It was an horrific injury.

:57:33.:57:38.

Owen, roughly what you think the future of Ukip is? Positioning

:57:39.:57:45.

itself as a patriotic working-class party in the north. It needs to find

:57:46.:57:49.

another way of representing those northern class -- working-class

:57:50.:57:55.

northern voters. Did you bring me a copy of the book? Yes, I thought you

:57:56.:58:00.

had about five already. But they were all signed! Just time for the

:58:01.:58:03.

quiz. The question was what George Osborne

:58:04.:58:05.

policy has the Chancellor Philip c) Wearing a hi-viz

:58:06.:58:08.

jacket everyday? So, Anne and Matt, what's

:58:09.:58:13.

the correct answer? Northern powerhouse? Wrong. Wants

:58:14.:58:26.

them to wear Hi-Vis jackets. That is not a policy! That was the policy to

:58:27.:58:32.

make Mr Osborne Prime Minister, it didn't quite work in the end, so

:58:33.:58:37.

there we have it. Can we see him up on the screen? There he is, Bob the

:58:38.:58:45.

builder. Know we can't! UNC Mr Hammond like that. Special

:58:46.:58:49.

Thanks to Matt, Anne and all my guests.

:58:50.:58:53.

The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.

:58:54.:58:55.

Jo Co will be back here on BBC Two on Monday with more

:58:56.:58:58.

in a brand-new BBC Two quiz show, Debatable,

:58:59.:59:15.

where a team of celebrities put their debating skills to the test

:59:16.:59:19.

to try to win their contestants pots of cash.

:59:20.:59:22.

Comedian Matt Forde and Anne McElvoy from The Economist keep Andrew company throughout the programme. They examine the government's plans for the expansion of grammar schools and speak to Baroness Cox, who met Syria's President Assad earlier this week.


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