12/09/2016 Daily Politics


12/09/2016

Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 12/09/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:37.:00:39.

Theresa May's on a mission to bring back grammar schools.

:00:40.:00:42.

The Government will publish a green paper on its plans this afternoon.

:00:43.:00:45.

But it could be a tough ride for the new PM.

:00:46.:00:49.

Labour, the SNP and the Liberal Democrats oppose the plans.

:00:50.:00:51.

And many Tories don't like the idea either.

:00:52.:00:55.

And it's a year to the day since Jeremy Corbyn became leader

:00:56.:00:58.

Let's hope he's celebrating in style.

:00:59.:01:01.

He might not be if he's been reading the latest set of polls.

:01:02.:01:06.

We hear from one academic who thinks many degress aren't worth

:01:07.:01:10.

The Democratic Presidential nominee faces serious

:01:11.:01:19.

questions over her health, after admitting she's

:01:20.:01:20.

And with us for the duration - the Conservative MP Heidi Allan,

:01:21.:01:38.

and the Labour MP and prominient Brexiter Gisela Stuart,

:01:39.:01:40.

who this morning launched a new pressure group,

:01:41.:01:42.

Change Britain, campaigning to make Brexit a success.

:01:43.:01:45.

The group has notable supporters, including the Foreign Secretary,

:01:46.:01:47.

We can now say the decision taken to leave the EU...

:01:48.:01:57.

On the 23rd of June, the people of this country voted

:01:58.:01:59.

to leave the European Union and they voted for change.

:02:00.:02:03.

But there were many people who also voted for Remain.

:02:04.:02:09.

So it's absolutely vital that we work together,

:02:10.:02:13.

Leavers and Remainers, as we seize the opportunities

:02:14.:02:17.

that this country now has to forge a positive and exciting

:02:18.:02:20.

new relationship, not just with the European Union,

:02:21.:02:22.

Changing Britain and making it global again.

:02:23.:02:34.

Boris Johnson. Welcome, ladies, to the programme. Why is Boris Johnson,

:02:35.:02:43.

as Foreign Secretary, spearheading a Vote Leave pressure group? It is not

:02:44.:02:49.

a pressure group for Vote Leave. It is an acknowledgement that this was

:02:50.:02:56.

a hard-fought referendum. While the result was clear, 48% voted to

:02:57.:03:00.

remain. But the decision has been made. It is a difficult task to work

:03:01.:03:06.

out how we negotiate and get the best deal. Do you trust Theresa May

:03:07.:03:11.

to do it? I do. She has not done anything so far to make me not trust

:03:12.:03:17.

her. She's not really done anything, some might say? But we have to bring

:03:18.:03:23.

both leave and remain voters together for the best interests of

:03:24.:03:28.

the country. Is it appropriate for the Foreign Secretary to be part of

:03:29.:03:33.

it? He is championing it, the main patrons are Robert Salisbury and

:03:34.:03:35.

Maurice Glassman, so you have the political spectrum and you have both

:03:36.:03:41.

leave and remain supporters. I would like to know where the Remainers

:03:42.:03:45.

are. Would he reach out with somebody like Heidi Allen? Would you

:03:46.:03:52.

join? No, because I think, and I understand, so emotive from both

:03:53.:03:55.

sides, but we have to give the Prime Minister a chance. Everybody is

:03:56.:04:03.

entitled to form their own opinions, but it is time for the Prime

:04:04.:04:07.

Minister, she set of the departments, she was meeting

:04:08.:04:09.

European leaders, she is getting on with it. I don't think we need that

:04:10.:04:15.

group yet. Looks as if the group does not trust the Government to do

:04:16.:04:18.

what they said they would do? I don't know if it is about trust. My

:04:19.:04:23.

sense is that it is about keeping the pressure on so that it never

:04:24.:04:28.

relents and that Brexit is what we achieve. I don't believe for a

:04:29.:04:31.

minute that she will go back on that, I think Theresa May is very

:04:32.:04:34.

determined. If you feel you need to do it, fine. For me, I think it is

:04:35.:04:39.

early to put that pressure on. Which Remainers have you got on board? We

:04:40.:04:48.

have literally just started this. I am probably one of the last people

:04:49.:04:53.

that have done negotiations across Whitehall with 27 European states,

:04:54.:05:00.

when we were working on the European constitution. What I learned was

:05:01.:05:04.

that even when you have a clear political direction, you do need a

:05:05.:05:08.

platform where you can thrash out ideas. Government, you always expect

:05:09.:05:11.

them to come out with perfectly formed policies. Currently, they are

:05:12.:05:16.

saying, you know, we're working on this behind-the-scenes. We are

:05:17.:05:20.

saying we can help you to work on those policies. Do you think that is

:05:21.:05:23.

realistically going to happen, particularly when leaders of the

:05:24.:05:30.

Vote Leave campaign have been asked to apologise for promising there

:05:31.:05:32.

would be ?350 million of extra money for the NHS? You have been asked to

:05:33.:05:36.

apologise by Labour colleagues. Will you apologise for that? To which I

:05:37.:05:41.

say, unless we actually leave the European Union, there is nothing of

:05:42.:05:45.

this we can do. We said that is the money we spend on the NHS, no, on

:05:46.:05:51.

Brussels, we should fund the NHS. I said if it was my priority, I would

:05:52.:05:56.

spend it on the NHS. Is it in your manifesto, in this group? This is

:05:57.:06:00.

why it is not a pressure group or manifesto. You have a manifesto? We

:06:01.:06:05.

have the key principles of what we thought people were looking for, the

:06:06.:06:09.

brakes of links between people and trade, links of supremacy of EU law.

:06:10.:06:14.

The NHS pledge was at the heart of your message, wasn't it? It is a bit

:06:15.:06:19.

surprisingly was not there? The NHS was the example, if you are spending

:06:20.:06:23.

that kind of money and do not have control on what to do with it, I

:06:24.:06:26.

would spend it on the NHS. It was about to take control of spending

:06:27.:06:32.

decisions. Do you think these are was right, that the campaign is

:06:33.:06:36.

over, there were many arguments about pledges and claims, money

:06:37.:06:43.

being alleged the NHS, do think we need to move on from that? I do,

:06:44.:06:48.

people have come away very wounded on both sides, people have been

:06:49.:06:51.

tarred with a brush on the leave side that is not deserved. My word

:06:52.:06:57.

of caution on this whole project, lobby group, those wounds, I don't

:06:58.:07:00.

feel they have healed yet. It feels like whipping it up again before the

:07:01.:07:04.

Prime Minister has had a chance to harmonise the country. I think she

:07:05.:07:07.

is capable of doing that and I would be wary for that reason. You think

:07:08.:07:11.

it is going to fuel division, rather than bringing people together?

:07:12.:07:18.

Potentially, that would be my worry. She is the leader of the country,

:07:19.:07:22.

calming and measured, she is the one to bring the sides back together

:07:23.:07:26.

again. I worry this might rip it up. You may a fair point, what I would

:07:27.:07:30.

add to that is that we have had large sections of Labour core voters

:07:31.:07:36.

that voted to leave. They need their say and fair representation. You are

:07:37.:07:39.

right to put the challenge to us, that we need to make sure we focus

:07:40.:07:44.

on the healing process. It has to be a national decision. It was a

:07:45.:07:47.

national decision to leave and the implimentation must represent the

:07:48.:07:51.

whole country. Come back and tell us how it is going on in terms of

:07:52.:07:54.

recruiting remainers. It's a tough job being the presenter

:07:55.:07:57.

of a political news programme - I should know - but yesterday,

:07:58.:08:02.

Sky News' Dermot Murnaghan was given a particularly

:08:03.:08:04.

hard time by one guest, At the end of the show,

:08:05.:08:06.

Heidi and Gisela will give The government will put more flesh

:08:07.:08:27.

on its grammar schools policy later today with a new green paper and

:08:28.:08:32.

statement to MPs. Some councils are already reportedly making plans to

:08:33.:08:35.

create new grammar school places. But there are big obstacles in the

:08:36.:08:37.

way before the plans become reality. Education Secretary Justine Greening

:08:38.:08:40.

will spell out her plans in more The Government wants to allow

:08:41.:08:43.

all state schools in England to select pupils by academic ability

:08:44.:08:47.

"in the right circumstances" ?50 million of new funding will also

:08:48.:08:49.

be allocated to help existing The Sunday Times reported that five

:08:50.:08:56.

councils are already considering taking

:08:57.:09:02.

advantage of the changes - Thurrock, Kent, Bedfordshire,

:09:03.:09:03.

Northamptonshire, and But opposition to the proposals

:09:04.:09:05.

is already being voiced. Labour says the plans

:09:06.:09:14.

will "entrench inequality". And even within the Conservative

:09:15.:09:17.

Party, there is fierce opposition. Justine Greening's predecessor,

:09:18.:09:21.

Nicky Morgan, said the plans would be, "At best, a distraction

:09:22.:09:23.

from crucial reforms At worse, risk actively undermining

:09:24.:09:25.

six years of progressive Let's talk now to our political

:09:26.:09:31.

correspondent, Eleanor Garnier. Tell us about the Tory opposition.

:09:32.:09:48.

With the majority that Theresa May has, there could be problems in the

:09:49.:09:52.

Commons? She can't afford to have too many unhappy Tories on the

:09:53.:09:56.

backbenches. As well as Nicky Morgan, we heard from the chair of

:09:57.:09:59.

the Education Select Committee, Neil Carmichael. He says there is no

:10:00.:10:04.

compelling evidence that grammar schools help disadvantaged children

:10:05.:10:07.

climb up that social ladder. He says he is becoming a little bit more

:10:08.:10:12.

content with the plans. We have heard from Sarah Wollaston, another

:10:13.:10:16.

senior Tory, chair of the health select committee, and Desmond

:10:17.:10:19.

Swayne, who have both voiced concerns. There are reports over the

:10:20.:10:24.

weekend that Patrick McLoughlin, the former Transport Secretary and now

:10:25.:10:29.

chair of the Tories, of him saying a great debate on grammar schools

:10:30.:10:33.

would not help. I am told he is now not just 100%, but 200% behind the

:10:34.:10:38.

plans. In terms of a timetable, it is very difficult to say at the

:10:39.:10:41.

moment exactly when these plans would come on board. But with the

:10:42.:10:47.

opposition that exists, it is now, at this point, not definite it will

:10:48.:10:51.

happen at all? That is exacting right. As you have reported, we have

:10:52.:11:02.

councils already making plans. The changes will need legislation to get

:11:03.:11:04.

through Parliament. We have already talked about opposition in the

:11:05.:11:06.

Commons. Even if Theresa May manages to get some of the ideas through the

:11:07.:11:09.

Commons, she will have a difficult time in House of Lords whether

:11:10.:11:11.

Government does not have a majority. We have had warnings from people

:11:12.:11:15.

like Baroness Smith, the leader of Labour in the Lords, saying the

:11:16.:11:18.

government does not have a mandate. It was not in the manifesto and it

:11:19.:11:22.

will have a challenging time getting it to the House of Lords. Briefly,

:11:23.:11:26.

what is pushing this? What is driving this for Theresa May? It's

:11:27.:11:32.

interesting, I don't think there was a clamour of backbenchers banging on

:11:33.:11:35.

her door to get the policy through. I think we should reflect on her own

:11:36.:11:39.

experience at school. She went to a grammar school, as did one of her

:11:40.:11:43.

key advisers, Nick Timothy, who has a lot of influence behind the scenes

:11:44.:11:47.

at Number 10. Remember her Cabinet, 20 of her Cabinet went to state

:11:48.:11:56.

school, around half a dozen of those were grammar schools. Remember what

:11:57.:11:59.

she said on the steps of Downing Street, when she took office. I

:12:00.:12:08.

think this is a appeal to them. She is saying, I am prepared to make a

:12:09.:12:12.

stamp on this and be a little bit radical. Thank you very much.

:12:13.:12:17.

Joining us now is the Conservative MP Mark Field, who is in favour of

:12:18.:12:22.

reintroducing grammar schools. Welcome to the Daily Politics. How

:12:23.:12:25.

do you explain selective schools working for everybody? It is a

:12:26.:12:29.

contradiction in terms, they don't. I think they do work for everybody.

:12:30.:12:35.

I think it raises standards. The other thing to remember, and it goes

:12:36.:12:39.

back to your previous discussion, we live in a different world today. We

:12:40.:12:44.

have to compete internationally. One of the strengths of what Theresa May

:12:45.:12:48.

is proposing is not a throwback to ideological battles within the

:12:49.:12:51.

Conservative Party and beyond about grammar schools, heading back to the

:12:52.:12:56.

60s... It was a big ideological battle. Was at the time, many of us

:12:57.:13:01.

were involved at the time. A Labour council tried to close down my

:13:02.:13:04.

school, and that made me a conservative from my teens. The real

:13:05.:13:09.

issue is that we are in this very competitive labour world. Look at

:13:10.:13:16.

China, the cultural passion they have for education. This is

:13:17.:13:18.

something very important. What is key is not to luck at this simply as

:13:19.:13:21.

an issue about grammar schools, she put a warning shot across the bow is

:13:22.:13:27.

volley bowels of Independent schools, -- she got a warning shot

:13:28.:13:38.

across the of this... Independent schools. The academically gifted

:13:39.:13:47.

will have the opportunity of grammar schools more widely. You say they

:13:48.:13:50.

work for everybody, because they raise standards. But the figures do

:13:51.:13:54.

not bear that out. They show clearly that where there are grammar

:13:55.:13:57.

schools, where there have been grammar schools, children on free

:13:58.:14:00.

school meals perform less well than in areas where there are not grammar

:14:01.:14:05.

schools. Not only does it select only a few people that have the

:14:06.:14:09.

benefit, it disadvantages those who do not go. Hang on, the difficulty

:14:10.:14:15.

is, there are relatively few grammar schools left, mainly in leafy

:14:16.:14:19.

middle-class suburbs. But they don't work. The sort of seat I represent

:14:20.:14:24.

in central London, where the Chinese and Bangladeshi population would

:14:25.:14:28.

give their eye teeth to have the opportunity of grammar schools.

:14:29.:14:33.

Those schools were the first to be abolished. They did not have the

:14:34.:14:36.

active parents able to preserve them, when the culture war to place.

:14:37.:14:43.

Are you saying free schools and academies, championed by the

:14:44.:14:46.

previous government matter have been a failure? Not at all. So why not

:14:47.:14:52.

put resources into those? We are, it is not an entire change of

:14:53.:14:56.

direction. What we want to give is the power for those in existing

:14:57.:15:02.

grammar school in areas that want more places, partly because of

:15:03.:15:05.

increased population, to be able to do so. Heidi Allen, are you going to

:15:06.:15:07.

support this? I am not sure, I am looking forward

:15:08.:15:17.

to hearing that the statement this afternoon. My gut instinct is, why

:15:18.:15:22.

not? If you are bright, we should encourage the best children to learn

:15:23.:15:26.

and I am glad about the technical college side of things because my

:15:27.:15:31.

worst fear is those left behind. In my very high-tech, high science

:15:32.:15:34.

constituency in South Cambridgeshire, we do not have

:15:35.:15:37.

enough people learning the other jobs and my beer is we will end up

:15:38.:15:41.

with grammar schools and everybody else falling by the wayside and that

:15:42.:15:49.

there was a binary choice. Why does Theresa May think this is the answer

:15:50.:15:54.

and not put the effort and resources into the technical challenges --

:15:55.:15:58.

technical colleges that have been championed by former Conservative

:15:59.:16:02.

Canada Baker? I do not know and I hope we will hear more later. I like

:16:03.:16:07.

the model of technical colleges by Kenneth Baker. He is saying the one

:16:08.:16:13.

gap in the reforms of the 1980s was part of the focus of the system.

:16:14.:16:18.

What I am very positive about is there a sense of great meritocracy

:16:19.:16:22.

and it is important in the world we live in and part of the post Brexit

:16:23.:16:27.

debate that on the educational side, Theresa May is grabbing hold of

:16:28.:16:31.

this. And it comes from the heart, it is very authentic, where she

:16:32.:16:36.

stands and what she believes in. In the last 20 years, you have been

:16:37.:16:41.

people pushing aside that they had privileged private education and

:16:42.:16:44.

that has not been the authenticity we have seen from Theresa May and I

:16:45.:16:48.

wish her the best. Is this a step forward towards social meritocracy

:16:49.:16:53.

or a retrograde step? I am utterly puzzled, I am a Bermuda made --

:16:54.:17:00.

Birmingham MP where Tony Blair gave his education, education speech. You

:17:01.:17:04.

have got the King Edward foundations in Birmingham and they have 25% of

:17:05.:17:10.

their bursary places and they work with the local Academies and with

:17:11.:17:14.

Birmingham University in one of their schools and there is a

:17:15.:17:17.

reaching out. This is what is being proposed. Why pick this fight?

:17:18.:17:23.

Technical colleges, did hate -- the debate is about the age of

:17:24.:17:26.

transition because technical colleges take them at the age of 14

:17:27.:17:32.

and I think it is really important. Under the current structure, it will

:17:33.:17:39.

be only the ones not comfortable in the schools. The proposals as I see

:17:40.:17:45.

them is an answer to a question I cannot define. We have a shortage of

:17:46.:17:49.

school places in the West Midlands, 45,000 missing, and what needs to be

:17:50.:17:53.

done, but expansion of grammar schools? If you live in Edgbaston or

:17:54.:17:57.

Harborne and you are well off, you can also sign a check and why should

:17:58.:18:04.

the best education be exclusively in the preserve of those well off?

:18:05.:18:08.

People will argue it will still be the preserve of those who can afford

:18:09.:18:12.

to pay for expensive tuition and the problem is we have seen an increase

:18:13.:18:16.

in tuition privately at home of children going to all sorts of

:18:17.:18:20.

schools, it is very expensive and there will be a race to get their

:18:21.:18:24.

children in the fire expensive tuition at home which most will not

:18:25.:18:31.

be able to afford. -- via. Some people, any system... For my own

:18:32.:18:37.

experience, I assure you everybody who can afford it does it and they

:18:38.:18:47.

get ahead! That is what happens. I want to see a sense of the reasons

:18:48.:18:52.

and excellence at the core of our education system. Applying in an

:18:53.:18:56.

academic sense and non-academic sense, we need it to succeed in the

:18:57.:19:00.

21st century in this very competitive world. Was there a

:19:01.:19:05.

climber from MPs for this to happen? It was not in the manifesto which is

:19:06.:19:09.

why the opposition will say, we will not support it. It was not that but

:19:10.:19:14.

there is an element, I am glad we have Prime Minister with guts but at

:19:15.:19:20.

the same time, our teachers in schools have yet again just gone

:19:21.:19:24.

through the most amazing amount of change, they are exhausted. We

:19:25.:19:28.

cannot recruit, we do not have enough teachers, we are losing them

:19:29.:19:33.

quickly. I've be a more change will put more pressure on the system and

:19:34.:19:37.

I would rather see the effort and energy and money put into getting

:19:38.:19:40.

the fair funding great because yet again that has been shelved and

:19:41.:19:45.

should have come first. As I say, you should not overestimate just how

:19:46.:19:48.

many schools will go down the grammar schools but it gives an

:19:49.:19:52.

option for parents. This will take time, but we need to get our best

:19:53.:19:57.

selective education right. I am in favour of what has been proposed.

:19:58.:20:02.

This issue of mandate. It is a bit rich to see somebody like Nick Clegg

:20:03.:20:06.

going on about mandate. Who ever would have voted for the coalition?

:20:07.:20:10.

He had five years in office and too many of our problems economic league

:20:11.:20:15.

were parked and not solved by the coalition. -- economically. You do

:20:16.:20:23.

not think that is a problem at all? I really do not. Do you think it

:20:24.:20:28.

will get through? Will the House of Lords close this down? They will use

:20:29.:20:34.

the argument. They can start down that route. I think it would be very

:20:35.:20:39.

foolish of them to do that. It is right to examine in full what is

:20:40.:20:43.

being proposed. The fact we are looking at Independent and faith

:20:44.:20:47.

schools and technical schools, it will be as a package and it is

:20:48.:20:53.

something that is part of a heartfelt feeling from Theresa May

:20:54.:20:56.

that she is passionate about having a great meritocracy not just for

:20:57.:20:59.

this generation but for many years to come. Thank you very much.

:21:00.:21:04.

Now, let's talk about Hilary Clinton.

:21:05.:21:05.

The Democratic Presidential Candidate has cancelled

:21:06.:21:07.

a campaign trip to California, after her doctor announced that she

:21:08.:21:09.

At an event in New York yesterday, Mrs Clinton left early

:21:10.:21:19.

and was filmed collapsing as she was about to

:21:20.:21:21.

She's been told to rest and is being treated

:21:22.:21:24.

You can see footage taken as Mrs Clinton was leaving a memorial event

:21:25.:21:36.

yesterday in New York, she fell ill during the event. You can see her

:21:37.:21:40.

here being helped and she stumbles at that point and has security

:21:41.:21:46.

staff, apparently she fainted where she fell, and security staff has to

:21:47.:21:51.

help her into the vehicle. Her team said she overheated and she was

:21:52.:21:55.

feeling much better soon after. But how big an issue could this be for

:21:56.:21:59.

Hillary's campaign? Andrews, from Republicans Overseas,

:22:00.:22:02.

and journalist Michael Goldfarb. Is it going to be very damaging when

:22:03.:22:11.

the Americans are obsessed with the health of presidents and nominees?

:22:12.:22:15.

Not for very long unless something is going on there. Sometimes a cigar

:22:16.:22:20.

is just a cigar and walking pneumonia is just walking pneumonia.

:22:21.:22:26.

This comes after a prolonged period of attack by Trump surrogates as he

:22:27.:22:29.

tries to call himself back out of the pit he dug for himself out of

:22:30.:22:33.

his own convention by saying Hillary is hiding a health secret. And then

:22:34.:22:40.

we have just seen the pictures. The seed is planted. Will people pay

:22:41.:22:45.

attention? I don't know. The way this campaign is going, the subject

:22:46.:22:49.

changes every couple of days and Donald Trump is perfectly capable of

:22:50.:22:54.

changing it himself by saying something absolutely outrageous.

:22:55.:22:57.

What is interesting, that report staff holding back his hands from

:22:58.:23:04.

hitting the keyboard to write something totally inappropriate. I

:23:05.:23:07.

believe that, it is amazing to see him so quiet! But white, but wise.

:23:08.:23:16.

Especially after yesterday her media time -- her media team said she was

:23:17.:23:20.

feeling better and a couple of hours later, she has walking pneumonia. It

:23:21.:23:26.

fitted the rhetoric she is not transparent and not being honest and

:23:27.:23:29.

it follows the e-mail scandals and her connections between the

:23:30.:23:33.

foundation and the State Department. Once again voters reminded Clinton

:23:34.:23:37.

is not telling the truth. Is that not a media narrative she is not

:23:38.:23:43.

transparent about her health, or in general? It is a Hillary Clinton

:23:44.:23:46.

narrative from her e-mails to the front pages of papers and from her

:23:47.:23:50.

media team that is not the full truth. Once again, voters reminded

:23:51.:23:55.

they are not hearing the full story. Without making it partisan,

:23:56.:23:59.

transparency cuts both. I'd do buy into the fact this is a media

:24:00.:24:04.

narrative. And she plays the game. If you ask Donald Trump, show your

:24:05.:24:09.

tax returns as every presidential candidate for decades has done and

:24:10.:24:12.

he deflects it with an outrageous comment. The problem with Hillary

:24:13.:24:16.

Linton goes back to the beginning of her being a public figure 25 years

:24:17.:24:20.

ago when Bill Clinton was running for President -- Clinton. In some

:24:21.:24:26.

ways, the Queen always says, never complain, never explain. She has got

:24:27.:24:31.

the second half of that phrase, she never explains, she is cornered. She

:24:32.:24:36.

does not want to. Will she be forced to change tactics? If this is on the

:24:37.:24:42.

news cycle rightly or wrongly every day until the debates or until they

:24:43.:24:47.

can comfortably say, her team, she is over it, that is going to remain

:24:48.:24:51.

in the minds of voters. It probably will, but then again, I come back to

:24:52.:24:57.

the point about Donald Trump and his tax returns. People want to see it

:24:58.:25:04.

and it is important because... But why should that openness and

:25:05.:25:06.

transparency not be foisted upon Donald Trump in the same way? It

:25:07.:25:12.

should be but none of us could say the media in America and

:25:13.:25:15.

international media have not probed into Donald Trump, he has been the

:25:16.:25:19.

topic of almost every conversation and it has not been flattering.

:25:20.:25:22.

People do want to see his records and they showed, but they literally

:25:23.:25:27.

saw on video over and over Clinton struggling to get into that car and

:25:28.:25:30.

the image will play with voters rightly or wrongly and it will be

:25:31.:25:34.

politically damaging. What was your reaction when you saw the footage?

:25:35.:25:38.

When I was campaigning, I got a really sore throat and I felt

:25:39.:25:43.

rubbish because I was tired. So you think this is a mountain out of a

:25:44.:25:48.

mole hill? To be fair, I am not American and I do not understand the

:25:49.:25:52.

American psyche and how they might interpret it but in this country, we

:25:53.:25:56.

might think, they are working hard, they are exhausted, that might be a

:25:57.:26:00.

good thing. I am safe to say you are not 69, she is a bit older and

:26:01.:26:05.

running for the top job. Should more scrutiny not be placed on whether

:26:06.:26:14.

she is up to it physically? Not really, the woman is just exhausted,

:26:15.:26:17.

that simple. What did you think? Being 60, I kind of know that you

:26:18.:26:20.

get a bit more exhausted. But I was thinking, look at the post-World War

:26:21.:26:28.

II figures, Churchill, the goal, they were well beyond 69. -- General

:26:29.:26:37.

De Gaulle. But she has been working extremely hard and I could not keep

:26:38.:26:42.

up that pace. She was in the air for the five-year she was Secretary of

:26:43.:26:46.

State. In the air hovering over us. She is obviously a beast for work.

:26:47.:26:54.

And my guess is that having stored in heavy woollen suits in the middle

:26:55.:27:00.

of September in a synagogue in New York as a boy and wishing I could go

:27:01.:27:04.

to sleep, she is in a very heavy suit, in a warm morning on a 9-11

:27:05.:27:11.

memorial and already under the weather, trust me, it could go the

:27:12.:27:16.

wrong way very quickly. This is an e-mail from the Trump team, Donald

:27:17.:27:19.

Trump says he hopes she gets well soon and gets back on the Trail. He

:27:20.:27:23.

does not think they will replace her with somebody else, he has had a

:27:24.:27:26.

physical and will release his details soon but he does think it is

:27:27.:27:32.

an issue. Surprisingly! The biggest problem Hillary has is he has said

:27:33.:27:36.

for a long time her health issues are worse than what we saw and this

:27:37.:27:44.

feeds into this, whether it is true or not, that the establishment is

:27:45.:27:46.

protecting Hillary Clinton. I wish her well, it sounds like she was

:27:47.:27:49.

overheated and she has pneumonia and that is terrible, I am sure she will

:27:50.:27:53.

recover. The biggest issue is why the American people, after seeing

:27:54.:27:56.

that footage, did not hear immediately about the root cause of

:27:57.:27:59.

the problem and it reiterates they are not being told the full truth.

:28:00.:28:03.

That is not about her health but the narrative around it. In two weeks,

:28:04.:28:08.

it is the debates, will that be the focus and this will be put behind

:28:09.:28:13.

them? If Donald Trump has not said something in the last five days to

:28:14.:28:17.

change the conversation. In two weeks, that will be the moment.

:28:18.:28:20.

Because there will be side-by-side. It Donald Trump appears in a certain

:28:21.:28:25.

way presidential, that will be but a goal for him. Everybody knows she

:28:26.:28:30.

has the competence to do the job but the question is... Some of us

:28:31.:28:34.

seriously doubt that, actually! Very briefly, what happens if she does

:28:35.:28:39.

drop out and is not able to continue, there is no protocol? No,

:28:40.:28:43.

we had the same conversation three weeks ago about Donald Trump when he

:28:44.:28:47.

was cratering in the polls. I don't know what happens and it is not

:28:48.:28:51.

worth speculating on because it is not going to happen. Both of you,

:28:52.:28:55.

thank you. Only a more weeks of this!

:28:56.:28:59.

Now let's look at what else is coming up in

:29:00.:29:01.

As we've been hearing, this afternoon, Education Secretary

:29:02.:29:04.

Justine Greening will make a statement setting out

:29:05.:29:06.

the Government's proposals on grammar schools in Parliament.

:29:07.:29:08.

Tomorrow sees the Second Reading of the Digital Economy Bill,

:29:09.:29:11.

the first major outing for the new Culture

:29:12.:29:13.

Wednesday will see Theresa May debating with Jeremy Corbyn

:29:14.:29:16.

at Prime Minister's Questions, in their weekly head-to-head.

:29:17.:29:18.

On Thursday, the Bank of England will announce its latest

:29:19.:29:20.

The Bank's Monetary Policy Committee cut rates to a historic low of 0.25%

:29:21.:29:26.

And on Friday, the new leader of UKIP will be announced

:29:27.:29:33.

at the party's conference in Bournemouth.

:29:34.:29:35.

The bookies' favourite is UKIP's Deputy Chair,

:29:36.:29:37.

We're joined now from College Green by Laura Hughes,

:29:38.:29:43.

from the Daily Telegraph, and George Eaton, the Political

:29:44.:29:45.

Laura, what do you think the motivation is for Theresa May

:29:46.:30:00.

pressing ahead with grammar schools? We have a party conference

:30:01.:30:04.

approaching and it is a clever move, it is incredibly popular amongst

:30:05.:30:07.

grassroots. She is making a clear break from David Cameron, under whom

:30:08.:30:11.

they felt a little bit unloved. We still have questions about Brexit,

:30:12.:30:15.

people are asking what it means in terms of access to the single

:30:16.:30:19.

market. It is something grassroots can unite around. It is pretty

:30:20.:30:24.

popular amongst most Tory MPs. A few are unhappy, but it is quite clever

:30:25.:30:29.

in the run-up to conference season. Listening to Laura saying it is

:30:30.:30:32.

going to be popular with grassroots, can she deliver it through the

:30:33.:30:39.

system, parliamentary system? In the Commons, it will be quite tight

:30:40.:30:42.

because she has a working majority of just 16. Nicky Morgan has already

:30:43.:30:47.

come out against the proposals. The Conservative chair of the Education

:30:48.:30:50.

Select Committee sounded quite sceptical. She should be reassured

:30:51.:30:55.

that Michael Gove has signalled he will not oppose the move. He could

:30:56.:31:00.

have spearheaded a revolt. The real problem is potentially the Lords,

:31:01.:31:03.

where the Conservatives have no majority. The Lords, traditionally,

:31:04.:31:08.

respects items that were included in manifestos, but the Conservative

:31:09.:31:13.

manifesto in 2015 made no mention of new grammar schools. This is why

:31:14.:31:16.

Theresa May is advancing quite cautiously on this. They have gone

:31:17.:31:20.

for a Green paper first, quite a contrast with 9010, when Michael

:31:21.:31:25.

Gove ramrod had the academies act through Parliament.

:31:26.:31:31.

The strikes are still planned to go ahead in October, the junior

:31:32.:31:38.

doctors, is this something Theresa May is just going to let Jeremy Hunt

:31:39.:31:43.

continue with, the tact he has taken up until now? She was very quick to

:31:44.:31:49.

come out and defend Jeremy Hunt, she accused junior doctors and the BMA

:31:50.:31:52.

of playing politics. She was quite harsh, quite immediately. Theresa

:31:53.:32:00.

May totals about the social reform agenda. A lot of union members might

:32:01.:32:03.

be interested in what she has to say. If she is clever, she will try

:32:04.:32:07.

to appeal to them. They are really worried about Brexit and that is

:32:08.:32:12.

something they can talk about. David Cameron, during the referendum

:32:13.:32:16.

campaign, reached out and spoke with union leaders, pretty unprecedented,

:32:17.:32:20.

and said, right, we will relax a few bits you are worried about if you

:32:21.:32:25.

get a bit of money towards the EU referendum campaign. I think it

:32:26.:32:28.

proves that Tory leaders can work with union leaders. There are union

:32:29.:32:32.

leaders that I worried about Jeremy Corbyn, worried about his policy on

:32:33.:32:38.

Trident. Theresa May would be, it would be inherent rests to show she

:32:39.:32:41.

was taking a different direction from the previous government. Is

:32:42.:32:47.

this an opportunity, in the week of the TUC, to try to build bridges

:32:48.:32:53.

with unions, including the BMA? Absolutely, it is something David

:32:54.:32:56.

Cameron made an attempt to do at the start of his leadership. She made

:32:57.:33:00.

proposals that are quite union friendly, such as employee

:33:01.:33:03.

representation on company boards, more shareholder control of

:33:04.:33:08.

executive pay. With the NHS, the big question, as it often is for

:33:09.:33:12.

governments, is where is the extra money coming from? The service is

:33:13.:33:15.

making it clear it need significantly more money, just to

:33:16.:33:19.

maintain services at the level that the public expect, let alone moving

:33:20.:33:24.

towards a new seven-day service. That is something the Chancellor,

:33:25.:33:28.

Philip Hammond, will have to address in the Autumn Statement, which we

:33:29.:33:30.

now know will be at the end of November. Briefly, from both of you,

:33:31.:33:35.

it is a year since Jeremy Corbyn became leader and the poll ratings

:33:36.:33:38.

are pretty disastrous. What do you think in terms of looking at? This

:33:39.:33:43.

is a one-year anniversary for Jeremy Corbyn, and he is not popular, 11

:33:44.:33:47.

points behind the Conservatives, the worst result for a Labour Leader a

:33:48.:33:49.

year after they were elected. But we were

:33:50.:34:10.

looking at the leadership election and I think is going to win that,

:34:11.:34:13.

really popular amongst the grassroots of the Labour Party and,

:34:14.:34:15.

for him, right now, that is what matters. Absolutely, there was one

:34:16.:34:18.

election he was focused on, the Labour leadership election. The

:34:19.:34:20.

indicators are that he will win by as much as he did last time, perhaps

:34:21.:34:23.

even a bigger margin. A lot of Labour members do not blame Jeremy

:34:24.:34:25.

Corbyn for his popularity, they blame the MPs that launched a coup

:34:26.:34:28.

against him, who they now want to unite behind, the leader.

:34:29.:34:31.

Yes, that's right, the political conference season.

:34:32.:34:34.

The Trade Union Congress getting underway in Brighton today.

:34:35.:34:39.

TUC General Secretary Frances O'Grady has been addressing

:34:40.:34:41.

delegates at the conference this morning, calling

:34:42.:34:43.

on the new Prime Minister, Theresa May, to ensure rights

:34:44.:34:45.

for workers are protected in the forthcoming Brexit negotiations.

:34:46.:34:47.

We can speak to Frances O'Grady now from the conference.

:34:48.:34:57.

Hello. Hello. You talked about sports direct and zero hour

:34:58.:35:06.

contracts in your speech this morning. You also pledged that trade

:35:07.:35:11.

unions will shine a light on shady businesses that treat workers like

:35:12.:35:16.

animals. Were you thinking of any particular? Well, I certainly was. I

:35:17.:35:19.

think the important thing to know is that sports director is not the only

:35:20.:35:25.

one. We have seen a pretty good victory for Unite, the union

:35:26.:35:28.

organising their and the combined union power in that shareholder

:35:29.:35:34.

meeting. But it is not just about sports direct. We know that zero

:35:35.:35:37.

hours has spread all over the country. It has risen by a fifth.

:35:38.:35:44.

Nearly 1 million workers on contracts now. It goes beyond zero

:35:45.:35:50.

hour contracts. We have too many employers using sham

:35:51.:35:58.

self-employment, as we have seen at Uber and Hermes, where it is just a

:35:59.:36:02.

way of getting around having to give workers' rights like respite and

:36:03.:36:06.

sick pay that they deserve. I have given notice to those companies that

:36:07.:36:10.

do treat workers badly that we're not going to stop at Sports Direct.

:36:11.:36:22.

The new Prime Minister has proposed putting workers on boards. Do you

:36:23.:36:28.

see Theresa May as an ally in your campaign for better rights for

:36:29.:36:30.

workers? I was very clear today that if Theresa May wants to have genuine

:36:31.:36:35.

elections so that we see workers on boards, then we will support that

:36:36.:36:38.

because it is something that the TUC and unions have long campaigned for.

:36:39.:36:43.

That is something the public want. We want to see some common sense and

:36:44.:36:47.

reality in the boardroom, and maybe tackle some of that top pay problem

:36:48.:36:52.

as well. What about comments by Liam Fox, the international trade

:36:53.:36:55.

Secretary, reporting to say that too many British businesses are fat and

:36:56.:37:02.

lazy. Do you agree with him? I guess I think he is not a great sales wrap

:37:03.:37:05.

for Britain if he is going around the world saying that at a time when

:37:06.:37:10.

he is supposed to be exploring trade deals. I think we need to be serious

:37:11.:37:14.

about this. Is he right? Now that the election, the referendum

:37:15.:37:19.

campaign is over, I think everybody needs to come down off their

:37:20.:37:22.

soapbox, roll up their sleeves and try to get the best deal for

:37:23.:37:26.

Britain. The best deal for British workers. Let's be clear, working

:37:27.:37:31.

people still have not recovered from the financial crash. Brexit

:37:32.:37:37.

introduces uncertainty, we want the Government to make sure that unions

:37:38.:37:40.

are at the table alongside business to get workers and Britain the best

:37:41.:37:45.

deal we can. Let's talk about Brexit and a deal that is going to be done

:37:46.:37:53.

by the Government. You believe it would be best for the economy if we

:37:54.:37:58.

remain members of the single market. Do you think the benefits of single

:37:59.:38:02.

market membership are worth it if it also means the country has to

:38:03.:38:05.

sacrifice of the things you are campaigning for, like state aid for

:38:06.:38:10.

industries, like the steel industry, or rail nationalisation? I think we

:38:11.:38:16.

are all keen on bringing the railways back into public control.

:38:17.:38:19.

But you wouldn't be able to as a member of the single market. You

:38:20.:38:24.

would not be able to, that would be in breach of EU competition laws if

:38:25.:38:27.

we were members of the single market. We would then be put aside?

:38:28.:38:33.

I'm afraid that it EU competition laws were often used as a very

:38:34.:38:37.

convenient excuse by Westminster governments to do things they didn't

:38:38.:38:42.

want to do anyway. We have often heard Brussels blamed, for example,

:38:43.:38:46.

about Chinese steel, when in fact it was the UK Government that was

:38:47.:38:50.

blocking the tariffs that we wanted to see to stop the dumping of cheap

:38:51.:38:55.

Chinese steel. What about state aid? If you are not allowed to give state

:38:56.:39:01.

money to prop up industries like steel, which he would not be able to

:39:02.:39:04.

under EU laws as they stand, you would be prevented from doing some

:39:05.:39:08.

of the things you want? I think you only have to look at Germany, France

:39:09.:39:13.

and Italy to see that state money does go to support industries when

:39:14.:39:18.

governments have the will to do it. We were looking for the same from

:39:19.:39:23.

Westminster. I think the serious point here is that we know a lot of

:39:24.:39:27.

good jobs, people's rights depend on that good relationship with the EU.

:39:28.:39:33.

A lot of exports go to the EU, in manufacturing. We need to get all of

:39:34.:39:37.

this, get a bit sensible about how we get a fair deal. In my experience

:39:38.:39:42.

as a negotiator, that requires some give and take from both sides. Thank

:39:43.:39:47.

you very much. Briefly, Gisela Stuart Cullen she wants a fair deal,

:39:48.:39:54.

but wants to remain, a member of the single market? This is an example,

:39:55.:40:00.

the organisation like Change Britain, we can bring together the

:40:01.:40:04.

points, the fear of what the trade-offs are, and break the link

:40:05.:40:07.

that was at the core of the Leave the vote. He break the link between

:40:08.:40:12.

trade and people. It's a year to the day

:40:13.:40:13.

since Jeremy Corbyn was elected Doesn't time fly when

:40:14.:40:17.

you're having fun? It's fair to say he's had

:40:18.:40:20.

an eventful 12 months. Here's our Adam, indulging

:40:21.:40:22.

in a spot of nostagligia. MUSIC: "Lust for Life"

:40:23.:40:25.

by Iggy Pop. We need to be investing in skills,

:40:26.:40:29.

investing in our young people. So, I sent out an e-mail

:40:30.:40:41.

to thousands of people and asked them what questions they would

:40:42.:40:54.

like to put to the Prime Minister. Choose victory in numerous

:40:55.:40:57.

by-elections, mayoral and council elections,

:40:58.:40:59.

which you celebrate We were getting predictions

:41:00.:41:00.

that Labour was going To assist Comrade Osborne

:41:01.:41:05.

in his dealings with his new-found comrades, I have brought him along

:41:06.:41:15.

Mao's Little Red Book. I feel I served in

:41:16.:41:18.

the best way I can. Thank you to UB40 for

:41:19.:41:21.

this incredible endorsement. However busy I am, my

:41:22.:41:30.

allotment is tended. Had them the other night,

:41:31.:41:35.

a lovely bean soup. Just be careful when

:41:36.:41:43.

you go trainspotting. Well, joining us to reflect

:41:44.:42:03.

on Jeremy Corbyn's first year is Sam Tarry, director

:42:04.:42:07.

of his leadership campaign, and Frances O'Grady is still

:42:08.:42:09.

with us from Brighton. What would you say is his biggest

:42:10.:42:19.

achievement? Some of the U-turns he has forced out of the government,

:42:20.:42:22.

personal independence payments, Iain Duncan Smith, the fact he was not

:42:23.:42:28.

able to remove the prerequisite of having income as a definition of

:42:29.:42:33.

poverty was incredibly important. You think has presided over a period

:42:34.:42:38.

where Labour has formed a justifiably strong opposition? It

:42:39.:42:42.

can obviously be improved, but quite clearly, for me, there has been

:42:43.:42:45.

dramatic change in British politics and he is at the head of that. Would

:42:46.:42:54.

you agree, Gisela? Where we have taken our eye off the ball is the

:42:55.:42:57.

clear determination that whatever your values, unless you are

:42:58.:43:01.

transforming a Government, you cannot translate it into practice.

:43:02.:43:05.

That will be the challenge between MPs and members. Don't blame each

:43:06.:43:08.

other, say we have a collective aim and to reflect our values we have to

:43:09.:43:12.

do more than just that at Westminster. I agree, I can't wait

:43:13.:43:17.

to get those MPs, having gone back to their constituencies, having seen

:43:18.:43:26.

sense, the strength of feeling amongst the membership, to come back

:43:27.:43:28.

on board and take the opposition to the Government. The constituents

:43:29.:43:30.

deserve it more than anything else. Do think it was Labour MPs and

:43:31.:43:33.

Jeremy Corbyn that got the U-turns, or was it down to Tory MPs? I am not

:43:34.:43:40.

a natural bloater, I did find myself going PIP, tax credits, I think I

:43:41.:43:46.

was involved in that. I like him, as a human being, he is showing a

:43:47.:43:50.

different way to behave. When I became into politics, I was

:43:51.:43:53.

determined not to behave in the old-fashioned ways, he said, she

:43:54.:43:57.

said, I am not interested in that. But he has to be competent. He is

:43:58.:44:05.

not leading his party and he needs to do that. Voters matter, not just

:44:06.:44:09.

MPs and members. Frances O'Grady said that. Without them, you are

:44:10.:44:18.

powerless. That is backed up by the polls, they are dramatic in terms of

:44:19.:44:24.

support for Labour. They are 11 points behind conservatives. In

:44:25.:44:29.

terms of favourability, he is 64 points behind Theresa May. They are

:44:30.:44:34.

dreadful. The party had not been tearing itself apart, they would be

:44:35.:44:39.

in a better position. You think is favourability would be better?

:44:40.:44:43.

Jeremy was doing much better before the coup, nobody wants to vote for a

:44:44.:44:48.

party where the majority of MPs or attacking the leader on a nonstop

:44:49.:44:52.

basis. We want to put in place a programme, when Jeremy wins next

:44:53.:44:56.

week, to ensure that we go into Government and we want the MPs back

:44:57.:45:01.

on board to do that. Is it in fighting, or Jeremy Corbyn? The

:45:02.:45:05.

infighting is a reflection that we have not got enough of a voice for

:45:06.:45:09.

those people who have got the right to expect we represent them and

:45:10.:45:14.

stand for them. You're quite right, after the leadership election, we

:45:15.:45:18.

need to come together. Not talk to each other all the time, the Pope to

:45:19.:45:22.

those that want to vote for us. That has to be a effort. -- it has to be

:45:23.:45:30.

a joint effort. My politics are not where Jeremy is, Owen Smith promises

:45:31.:45:34.

a second referendum and I think at that stage I look at the ballot

:45:35.:45:36.

paper and scratch my head. You do not think Jeremy can lead, it

:45:37.:45:46.

and Owen Smith, you disagree with him completely over Europe so

:45:47.:45:50.

somewhere, you have to make a decision. Fortunately on this

:45:51.:45:54.

occasion, my vote is only one among millions and whatever the decision

:45:55.:45:58.

is, I will work with whoever gets elected. And what you say to MPs his

:45:59.:46:03.

have voted no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn, should they do the same? Now

:46:04.:46:09.

that you have the second election, we need to work together. But that

:46:10.:46:14.

puts the onus on the leader to make sure they are followers. It is wrong

:46:15.:46:17.

to assume it is the responsibility of the followers to follow their

:46:18.:46:22.

leader, it is the leader's responsibility to reach out and make

:46:23.:46:26.

sure those people with them their followers. In trying gate, there was

:46:27.:46:31.

a row whether there were seats on the train Jeremy Corbyn was sitting

:46:32.:46:39.

on, was that a low point? I do not think so, he did well after that and

:46:40.:46:45.

during the full course of time, that probably will come out. What is more

:46:46.:46:48.

interesting is we are looking forward now to speaking to MPs and

:46:49.:46:54.

saying we have to make this work, we have to make this work, we know the

:46:55.:46:57.

constituents desperately want to make it work and now we need to look

:46:58.:47:02.

forward to what can be in the manifesto? And how on Earth do we

:47:03.:47:07.

use the 600,000 people and the fact the Labour Party has more money than

:47:08.:47:11.

ever before to fight a general election? That is what we are

:47:12.:47:14.

interested in. But it is not just about the members but the voters and

:47:15.:47:19.

the parliamentary party. Has Jeremy Corbyn really succeeded in reaching

:47:20.:47:24.

out to voters beyond the Labour Party membership? I think the

:47:25.:47:27.

message on the economy, his message of reaching out to communities, the

:47:28.:47:31.

communities I come from in East London that voted in large numbers

:47:32.:47:36.

of baulk Brexit, we need to win the next election and we are more

:47:37.:47:39.

prepared to listen to Jeremy. Why is it not translating in the polls, it

:47:40.:47:44.

is going the other way? We have an inward facing contest and we have

:47:45.:47:49.

not had chance to face outward. We are confident MPs will see sense and

:47:50.:47:53.

come back on board as take that message of economic renewal to

:47:54.:47:56.

communities who voted Brexit. In terms of the Shadow Cabinet

:47:57.:48:01.

elections, the proposal voted on by the Labour MPs, whether it goes

:48:02.:48:04.

ahead or not, would you like to see members electing people to the

:48:05.:48:08.

Shadow Cabinet? All you have then it is you have slates being wrong and

:48:09.:48:14.

you go back to the battles of the 1980s and the interest groups think

:48:15.:48:20.

it is it delegation. I was elected to exercise my judgment on behalf of

:48:21.:48:24.

my constituents and I have a responsibility to represent the

:48:25.:48:28.

entire constituency as a Labour MP with those values. The real

:48:29.:48:32.

difficulty is there is a perception there is a world inside the M25

:48:33.:48:37.

Circle and outside it and the challenge for the Labour Party is to

:48:38.:48:42.

reach out to the sections outside and that is something the leader has

:48:43.:48:46.

to take responsibility for. I am absolutely looking forward to doing

:48:47.:48:51.

that, I believe his policies and strategy can reach out to those

:48:52.:48:55.

communities beyond the M25, absolutely. Let's see! Thank you.

:48:56.:48:58.

Economic enrichment, vocational training,

:48:59.:49:00.

Professor Alison Wolf, who's also a cross-bencher peer,

:49:01.:49:03.

thinks that our universities have become money machines, offering

:49:04.:49:05.

It is an exciting time for many 18 and 19-year-olds.

:49:06.:49:19.

New friends, new studies, living away from home.

:49:20.:49:24.

They are also part of a mass enterprise.

:49:25.:49:27.

More teenagers than ever before will start degrees this autumn.

:49:28.:49:29.

Governments have expanded universities, year upon year,

:49:30.:49:36.

selling a dream - not of learning, but of wealth.

:49:37.:49:40.

That is what justifies the fees that students pay and the big loans

:49:41.:49:44.

The Government wants even more students.

:49:45.:49:49.

It thinks universities are engines of economic growth and so its new

:49:50.:49:52.

Higher Education Bill for England makes it easier

:49:53.:49:54.

Yet many graduates can't repay their loans, so that means

:49:55.:50:02.

Once, universities recruited small numbers of academic high-performers.

:50:03.:50:12.

Now, it's a competition to recruit students by the thousands.

:50:13.:50:19.

Huge lecture theatres like this one define modern universities.

:50:20.:50:22.

Yet degrees aren't magic wealth machines.

:50:23.:50:29.

A third of today's graduates are in non-graduate jobs

:50:30.:50:35.

and the graduates of some universities register no

:50:36.:50:39.

their average wages are exactly the same as those of people

:50:40.:50:44.

who did not go to university and who don't have student loans.

:50:45.:50:48.

English 18-year-olds basically have two choices -

:50:49.:50:50.

Other countries have technical tracks, shorter, cheaper

:50:51.:50:59.

And she joins us now, you are an economic structure, you biting the

:51:00.:51:16.

hand that feeds you? If I am, then hopefully, it is for a good reason.

:51:17.:51:22.

The reality is that for a lot of people, at university does pay and

:51:23.:51:25.

you learn a great deal. The problem we have in this country is we are

:51:26.:51:30.

giving 18-year-old is remarkably little choice. Essentially, they

:51:31.:51:33.

either have to go out into a harsh Labour market with more with more

:51:34.:51:37.

and more graduates competing or they have to get into this

:51:38.:51:50.

graduate Labour market and take on huge debts which we know many will

:51:51.:51:54.

never be able to repay. Do you agree, Heidi Allan, with the point

:51:55.:51:57.

in the film that if there is no wage premium for going to university,

:51:58.:52:00.

what is the point? It depends what profession and create you want to go

:52:01.:52:02.

into. Maybe earning is not what it is all about. When I went to

:52:03.:52:05.

university, I was the first of my family to go and that was the

:52:06.:52:08.

conversation you would have, anybody in your family on the university

:52:09.:52:12.

yet? And it swung the other way you are nobody if you did not go to

:52:13.:52:16.

university. We have been pushing it into degrees there is a worthless,

:52:17.:52:21.

at universities with not rigorous standards and they go out

:52:22.:52:25.

disappointed, and it has to change. Apprenticeships are part of that.

:52:26.:52:28.

You say it has to change and there was more change, it could change,

:52:29.:52:33.

but do you want to go back to the elite as time when very few clothes

:52:34.:52:38.

-- very few kids from from the middle class went to university? Not

:52:39.:52:42.

at all, I want a slot in the Private members Bill and I did not know what

:52:43.:52:47.

to do with it! I try to get a Private Members' Bill through about

:52:48.:52:52.

transparency on fees because it is a consumer think, you take on debt and

:52:53.:52:55.

you want to know what to get from your money. Let's help youngsters

:52:56.:52:59.

how many lectures, job prospects, what do I earn? Then people might

:53:00.:53:04.

choose a different path. Was it wrong for Labour, especially under

:53:05.:53:08.

Tony Blair, Gisela Stuart, to expand university education for everybody

:53:09.:53:17.

in the way they wanted a quota of 50% or whatever you could go to go?

:53:18.:53:20.

You will find the words 50% never crossed my lips for a very good

:53:21.:53:23.

reason. Alison is one of my heroes. That report on apprenticeships was

:53:24.:53:28.

so significant. You have a dual system, you have genuine

:53:29.:53:31.

alternatives. It is not just big employers are employing the

:53:32.:53:35.

workforce which anybody would do, you have a way to go at 18. That is

:53:36.:53:41.

the bullet we still have not bitten. I have brilliant universities on my

:53:42.:53:46.

patch, Birmingham University, but in some cities, we use universities

:53:47.:53:50.

like regeneration for the city. We have lost that focus of the world of

:53:51.:53:56.

work and education. If we take on bird -- if we take on board the idea

:53:57.:53:59.

to produce more apprenticeships to offer something else to

:54:00.:54:04.

18-year-olds, you have to say, you are not bright enough to go to

:54:05.:54:07.

university, and they still want to go. You do not have to say that, you

:54:08.:54:14.

say that you have an old -- and entitlement to a certain amount of

:54:15.:54:17.

higher education and training, it is up to you what you take and when you

:54:18.:54:21.

take it. All we offer now is the opportunity to go the ever expanding

:54:22.:54:25.

universities to take a three-year degree and more and more debt. You

:54:26.:54:29.

need is to open it up and followed pretty much every other European

:54:30.:54:34.

country in providing high prestige, technical routes leading out at 18

:54:35.:54:39.

which we have consistently failed to do. What is the psychological

:54:40.:54:44.

barrier to it? I think part of the problem is we destroyed

:54:45.:54:47.

apprenticeships in this country in the 1970s and 1980s and we have

:54:48.:54:52.

never really taken hold of this fact and made a serious efforts to put it

:54:53.:54:56.

right. Peace -- people constantly say they believe in apprenticeships

:54:57.:55:02.

and in purported vocational education and they spend more and

:55:03.:55:07.

more money expanding more and more universities -- and in vocational.

:55:08.:55:10.

And we are about to do it again. It looks as though the cost will go

:55:11.:55:14.

back to the taxpayer are people going to university and even if they

:55:15.:55:17.

do not earn more and do not always get a job, they cannot pay back the

:55:18.:55:22.

loans and taxpayers will fund university education. That is the

:55:23.:55:25.

real risk if we pushed to many in the University when it is not right.

:55:26.:55:30.

Some of this is legacy and before we have had a chance to make reforms,

:55:31.:55:34.

we have gone back to students who have educated themselves and that is

:55:35.:55:39.

not a lot we can do other than help them find work that pays well. We

:55:40.:55:43.

have to make apprenticeships sexy again. My father was so proud to be

:55:44.:55:47.

an apprentice, it was great, that is what you did, and that has become

:55:48.:55:52.

the poor relation. That is starting to change. Degree level

:55:53.:55:55.

apprenticeships, people feel they can access prestige to a different

:55:56.:55:58.

vocational way. Thank you very much. There's just time before we go

:55:59.:56:01.

to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was, who accused

:56:02.:56:04.

Sky's Dermot Murnaghan of I am afraid it is MLE. In her

:56:05.:56:20.

defence, I would not have known the Korean President either! -- Emily

:56:21.:56:21.

Thornberry. This is the exchange. I just wonder, I mean,

:56:22.:56:23.

have you called the French Foreign No, but they were in the process

:56:24.:56:26.

of arranging for me to go Don't start pub-quizzing me,

:56:27.:56:30.

Dermot. Well, he's the French Foreign

:56:31.:56:34.

Minister, do you know his name? No, and I'm not going to start

:56:35.:56:38.

answering your questions on this. What really...upsets me

:56:39.:56:41.

about your attitude to me is that I don't remember you doing it

:56:42.:56:47.

with anybody else, you know. And I certainly think that

:56:48.:56:51.

sometimes, when it comes to sexism, some Sky presenters need to look

:56:52.:56:56.

at themselves too. It really upsets me that every time

:56:57.:56:59.

I come on here, you do Because you do not do it

:57:00.:57:03.

with anybody else and I do think It's not, because you are

:57:04.:57:07.

the Shadow Foreign Secretary. And this was about the French

:57:08.:57:11.

Foreign Minister, Jean-Marc Ayrault. We have not got time for a quiz, you

:57:12.:57:19.

will be pleased to know, was sexist? It was good banter but you should

:57:20.:57:22.

never attacked the presenter. Whatever you tell me, I say yes! I

:57:23.:57:27.

am delighted to hear that! I want that in writing and on the wall! Was

:57:28.:57:33.

it sexist? Absolutely not, if you do not know the answer, you have been

:57:34.:57:37.

caught out, except it and wash. Almost time to ask you, but I will

:57:38.:57:39.

not! -- just accept it and blush. The One O'Clock News is starting

:57:40.:57:43.

over on BBC One now. I am delighted I have not been

:57:44.:57:53.

accused of being sexist and I would never be!

:57:54.:57:53.

I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big

:57:54.:57:57.

And the former Education Secretary, Nicky Morgan.

:57:58.:58:20.

then the Court of Appeal aren't going to change their decision.

:58:21.:58:24.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS