12/09/2016 Daily Politics


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.


Theresa May's on a mission to bring back grammar schools.


The Government will publish a green paper on its plans this afternoon.


But it could be a tough ride for the new PM.


Labour, the SNP and the Liberal Democrats oppose the plans.


And many Tories don't like the idea either.


And it's a year to the day since Jeremy Corbyn became leader


Let's hope he's celebrating in style.


He might not be if he's been reading the latest set of polls.


We hear from one academic who thinks many degress aren't worth


The Democratic Presidential nominee faces serious


questions over her health, after admitting she's


And with us for the duration - the Conservative MP Heidi Allan,


and the Labour MP and prominient Brexiter Gisela Stuart,


who this morning launched a new pressure group,


Change Britain, campaigning to make Brexit a success.


The group has notable supporters, including the Foreign Secretary,


We can now say the decision taken to leave the EU...


On the 23rd of June, the people of this country voted


to leave the European Union and they voted for change.


But there were many people who also voted for Remain.


So it's absolutely vital that we work together,


Leavers and Remainers, as we seize the opportunities


that this country now has to forge a positive and exciting


new relationship, not just with the European Union,


Changing Britain and making it global again.


Boris Johnson. Welcome, ladies, to the programme. Why is Boris Johnson,


as Foreign Secretary, spearheading a Vote Leave pressure group? It is not


a pressure group for Vote Leave. It is an acknowledgement that this was


a hard-fought referendum. While the result was clear, 48% voted to


remain. But the decision has been made. It is a difficult task to work


out how we negotiate and get the best deal. Do you trust Theresa May


to do it? I do. She has not done anything so far to make me not trust


her. She's not really done anything, some might say? But we have to bring


both leave and remain voters together for the best interests of


the country. Is it appropriate for the Foreign Secretary to be part of


it? He is championing it, the main patrons are Robert Salisbury and


Maurice Glassman, so you have the political spectrum and you have both


leave and remain supporters. I would like to know where the Remainers


are. Would he reach out with somebody like Heidi Allen? Would you


join? No, because I think, and I understand, so emotive from both


sides, but we have to give the Prime Minister a chance. Everybody is


entitled to form their own opinions, but it is time for the Prime


Minister, she set of the departments, she was meeting


European leaders, she is getting on with it. I don't think we need that


group yet. Looks as if the group does not trust the Government to do


what they said they would do? I don't know if it is about trust. My


sense is that it is about keeping the pressure on so that it never


relents and that Brexit is what we achieve. I don't believe for a


minute that she will go back on that, I think Theresa May is very


determined. If you feel you need to do it, fine. For me, I think it is


early to put that pressure on. Which Remainers have you got on board? We


have literally just started this. I am probably one of the last people


that have done negotiations across Whitehall with 27 European states,


when we were working on the European constitution. What I learned was


that even when you have a clear political direction, you do need a


platform where you can thrash out ideas. Government, you always expect


them to come out with perfectly formed policies. Currently, they are


saying, you know, we're working on this behind-the-scenes. We are


saying we can help you to work on those policies. Do you think that is


realistically going to happen, particularly when leaders of the


Vote Leave campaign have been asked to apologise for promising there


would be ?350 million of extra money for the NHS? You have been asked to


apologise by Labour colleagues. Will you apologise for that? To which I


say, unless we actually leave the European Union, there is nothing of


this we can do. We said that is the money we spend on the NHS, no, on


Brussels, we should fund the NHS. I said if it was my priority, I would


spend it on the NHS. Is it in your manifesto, in this group? This is


why it is not a pressure group or manifesto. You have a manifesto? We


have the key principles of what we thought people were looking for, the


brakes of links between people and trade, links of supremacy of EU law.


The NHS pledge was at the heart of your message, wasn't it? It is a bit


surprisingly was not there? The NHS was the example, if you are spending


that kind of money and do not have control on what to do with it, I


would spend it on the NHS. It was about to take control of spending


decisions. Do you think these are was right, that the campaign is


over, there were many arguments about pledges and claims, money


being alleged the NHS, do think we need to move on from that? I do,


people have come away very wounded on both sides, people have been


tarred with a brush on the leave side that is not deserved. My word


of caution on this whole project, lobby group, those wounds, I don't


feel they have healed yet. It feels like whipping it up again before the


Prime Minister has had a chance to harmonise the country. I think she


is capable of doing that and I would be wary for that reason. You think


it is going to fuel division, rather than bringing people together?


Potentially, that would be my worry. She is the leader of the country,


calming and measured, she is the one to bring the sides back together


again. I worry this might rip it up. You may a fair point, what I would


add to that is that we have had large sections of Labour core voters


that voted to leave. They need their say and fair representation. You are


right to put the challenge to us, that we need to make sure we focus


on the healing process. It has to be a national decision. It was a


national decision to leave and the implimentation must represent the


whole country. Come back and tell us how it is going on in terms of


recruiting remainers. It's a tough job being the presenter


of a political news programme - I should know - but yesterday,


Sky News' Dermot Murnaghan was given a particularly


hard time by one guest, At the end of the show,


Heidi and Gisela will give The government will put more flesh


on its grammar schools policy later today with a new green paper and


statement to MPs. Some councils are already reportedly making plans to


create new grammar school places. But there are big obstacles in the


way before the plans become reality. Education Secretary Justine Greening


will spell out her plans in more The Government wants to allow


all state schools in England to select pupils by academic ability


"in the right circumstances" ?50 million of new funding will also


be allocated to help existing The Sunday Times reported that five


councils are already considering taking


advantage of the changes - Thurrock, Kent, Bedfordshire,


Northamptonshire, and But opposition to the proposals


is already being voiced. Labour says the plans


will "entrench inequality". And even within the Conservative


Party, there is fierce opposition. Justine Greening's predecessor,


Nicky Morgan, said the plans would be, "At best, a distraction


from crucial reforms At worse, risk actively undermining


six years of progressive Let's talk now to our political


correspondent, Eleanor Garnier. Tell us about the Tory opposition.


With the majority that Theresa May has, there could be problems in the


Commons? She can't afford to have too many unhappy Tories on the


backbenches. As well as Nicky Morgan, we heard from the chair of


the Education Select Committee, Neil Carmichael. He says there is no


compelling evidence that grammar schools help disadvantaged children


climb up that social ladder. He says he is becoming a little bit more


content with the plans. We have heard from Sarah Wollaston, another


senior Tory, chair of the health select committee, and Desmond


Swayne, who have both voiced concerns. There are reports over the


weekend that Patrick McLoughlin, the former Transport Secretary and now


chair of the Tories, of him saying a great debate on grammar schools


would not help. I am told he is now not just 100%, but 200% behind the


plans. In terms of a timetable, it is very difficult to say at the


moment exactly when these plans would come on board. But with the


opposition that exists, it is now, at this point, not definite it will


happen at all? That is exacting right. As you have reported, we have


councils already making plans. The changes will need legislation to get


through Parliament. We have already talked about opposition in the


Commons. Even if Theresa May manages to get some of the ideas through the


Commons, she will have a difficult time in House of Lords whether


Government does not have a majority. We have had warnings from people


like Baroness Smith, the leader of Labour in the Lords, saying the


government does not have a mandate. It was not in the manifesto and it


will have a challenging time getting it to the House of Lords. Briefly,


what is pushing this? What is driving this for Theresa May? It's


interesting, I don't think there was a clamour of backbenchers banging on


her door to get the policy through. I think we should reflect on her own


experience at school. She went to a grammar school, as did one of her


key advisers, Nick Timothy, who has a lot of influence behind the scenes


at Number 10. Remember her Cabinet, 20 of her Cabinet went to state


school, around half a dozen of those were grammar schools. Remember what


she said on the steps of Downing Street, when she took office. I


think this is a appeal to them. She is saying, I am prepared to make a


stamp on this and be a little bit radical. Thank you very much.


Joining us now is the Conservative MP Mark Field, who is in favour of


reintroducing grammar schools. Welcome to the Daily Politics. How


do you explain selective schools working for everybody? It is a


contradiction in terms, they don't. I think they do work for everybody.


I think it raises standards. The other thing to remember, and it goes


back to your previous discussion, we live in a different world today. We


have to compete internationally. One of the strengths of what Theresa May


is proposing is not a throwback to ideological battles within the


Conservative Party and beyond about grammar schools, heading back to the


60s... It was a big ideological battle. Was at the time, many of us


were involved at the time. A Labour council tried to close down my


school, and that made me a conservative from my teens. The real


issue is that we are in this very competitive labour world. Look at


China, the cultural passion they have for education. This is


something very important. What is key is not to luck at this simply as


an issue about grammar schools, she put a warning shot across the bow is


volley bowels of Independent schools, -- she got a warning shot


across the of this... Independent schools. The academically gifted


will have the opportunity of grammar schools more widely. You say they


work for everybody, because they raise standards. But the figures do


not bear that out. They show clearly that where there are grammar


schools, where there have been grammar schools, children on free


school meals perform less well than in areas where there are not grammar


schools. Not only does it select only a few people that have the


benefit, it disadvantages those who do not go. Hang on, the difficulty


is, there are relatively few grammar schools left, mainly in leafy


middle-class suburbs. But they don't work. The sort of seat I represent


in central London, where the Chinese and Bangladeshi population would


give their eye teeth to have the opportunity of grammar schools.


Those schools were the first to be abolished. They did not have the


active parents able to preserve them, when the culture war to place.


Are you saying free schools and academies, championed by the


previous government matter have been a failure? Not at all. So why not


put resources into those? We are, it is not an entire change of


direction. What we want to give is the power for those in existing


grammar school in areas that want more places, partly because of


increased population, to be able to do so. Heidi Allen, are you going to


support this? I am not sure, I am looking forward


to hearing that the statement this afternoon. My gut instinct is, why


not? If you are bright, we should encourage the best children to learn


and I am glad about the technical college side of things because my


worst fear is those left behind. In my very high-tech, high science


constituency in South Cambridgeshire, we do not have


enough people learning the other jobs and my beer is we will end up


with grammar schools and everybody else falling by the wayside and that


there was a binary choice. Why does Theresa May think this is the answer


and not put the effort and resources into the technical challenges --


technical colleges that have been championed by former Conservative


Canada Baker? I do not know and I hope we will hear more later. I like


the model of technical colleges by Kenneth Baker. He is saying the one


gap in the reforms of the 1980s was part of the focus of the system.


What I am very positive about is there a sense of great meritocracy


and it is important in the world we live in and part of the post Brexit


debate that on the educational side, Theresa May is grabbing hold of


this. And it comes from the heart, it is very authentic, where she


stands and what she believes in. In the last 20 years, you have been


people pushing aside that they had privileged private education and


that has not been the authenticity we have seen from Theresa May and I


wish her the best. Is this a step forward towards social meritocracy


or a retrograde step? I am utterly puzzled, I am a Bermuda made --


Birmingham MP where Tony Blair gave his education, education speech. You


have got the King Edward foundations in Birmingham and they have 25% of


their bursary places and they work with the local Academies and with


Birmingham University in one of their schools and there is a


reaching out. This is what is being proposed. Why pick this fight?


Technical colleges, did hate -- the debate is about the age of


transition because technical colleges take them at the age of 14


and I think it is really important. Under the current structure, it will


be only the ones not comfortable in the schools. The proposals as I see


them is an answer to a question I cannot define. We have a shortage of


school places in the West Midlands, 45,000 missing, and what needs to be


done, but expansion of grammar schools? If you live in Edgbaston or


Harborne and you are well off, you can also sign a check and why should


the best education be exclusively in the preserve of those well off?


People will argue it will still be the preserve of those who can afford


to pay for expensive tuition and the problem is we have seen an increase


in tuition privately at home of children going to all sorts of


schools, it is very expensive and there will be a race to get their


children in the fire expensive tuition at home which most will not


be able to afford. -- via. Some people, any system... For my own


experience, I assure you everybody who can afford it does it and they


get ahead! That is what happens. I want to see a sense of the reasons


and excellence at the core of our education system. Applying in an


academic sense and non-academic sense, we need it to succeed in the


21st century in this very competitive world. Was there a


climber from MPs for this to happen? It was not in the manifesto which is


why the opposition will say, we will not support it. It was not that but


there is an element, I am glad we have Prime Minister with guts but at


the same time, our teachers in schools have yet again just gone


through the most amazing amount of change, they are exhausted. We


cannot recruit, we do not have enough teachers, we are losing them


quickly. I've be a more change will put more pressure on the system and


I would rather see the effort and energy and money put into getting


the fair funding great because yet again that has been shelved and


should have come first. As I say, you should not overestimate just how


many schools will go down the grammar schools but it gives an


option for parents. This will take time, but we need to get our best


selective education right. I am in favour of what has been proposed.


This issue of mandate. It is a bit rich to see somebody like Nick Clegg


going on about mandate. Who ever would have voted for the coalition?


He had five years in office and too many of our problems economic league


were parked and not solved by the coalition. -- economically. You do


not think that is a problem at all? I really do not. Do you think it


will get through? Will the House of Lords close this down? They will use


the argument. They can start down that route. I think it would be very


foolish of them to do that. It is right to examine in full what is


being proposed. The fact we are looking at Independent and faith


schools and technical schools, it will be as a package and it is


something that is part of a heartfelt feeling from Theresa May


that she is passionate about having a great meritocracy not just for


this generation but for many years to come. Thank you very much.


Now, let's talk about Hilary Clinton.


The Democratic Presidential Candidate has cancelled


a campaign trip to California, after her doctor announced that she


At an event in New York yesterday, Mrs Clinton left early


and was filmed collapsing as she was about to


She's been told to rest and is being treated


You can see footage taken as Mrs Clinton was leaving a memorial event


yesterday in New York, she fell ill during the event. You can see her


here being helped and she stumbles at that point and has security


staff, apparently she fainted where she fell, and security staff has to


help her into the vehicle. Her team said she overheated and she was


feeling much better soon after. But how big an issue could this be for


Hillary's campaign? Andrews, from Republicans Overseas,


and journalist Michael Goldfarb. Is it going to be very damaging when


the Americans are obsessed with the health of presidents and nominees?


Not for very long unless something is going on there. Sometimes a cigar


is just a cigar and walking pneumonia is just walking pneumonia.


This comes after a prolonged period of attack by Trump surrogates as he


tries to call himself back out of the pit he dug for himself out of


his own convention by saying Hillary is hiding a health secret. And then


we have just seen the pictures. The seed is planted. Will people pay


attention? I don't know. The way this campaign is going, the subject


changes every couple of days and Donald Trump is perfectly capable of


changing it himself by saying something absolutely outrageous.


What is interesting, that report staff holding back his hands from


hitting the keyboard to write something totally inappropriate. I


believe that, it is amazing to see him so quiet! But white, but wise.


Especially after yesterday her media time -- her media team said she was


feeling better and a couple of hours later, she has walking pneumonia. It


fitted the rhetoric she is not transparent and not being honest and


it follows the e-mail scandals and her connections between the


foundation and the State Department. Once again voters reminded Clinton


is not telling the truth. Is that not a media narrative she is not


transparent about her health, or in general? It is a Hillary Clinton


narrative from her e-mails to the front pages of papers and from her


media team that is not the full truth. Once again, voters reminded


they are not hearing the full story. Without making it partisan,


transparency cuts both. I'd do buy into the fact this is a media


narrative. And she plays the game. If you ask Donald Trump, show your


tax returns as every presidential candidate for decades has done and


he deflects it with an outrageous comment. The problem with Hillary


Linton goes back to the beginning of her being a public figure 25 years


ago when Bill Clinton was running for President -- Clinton. In some


ways, the Queen always says, never complain, never explain. She has got


the second half of that phrase, she never explains, she is cornered. She


does not want to. Will she be forced to change tactics? If this is on the


news cycle rightly or wrongly every day until the debates or until they


can comfortably say, her team, she is over it, that is going to remain


in the minds of voters. It probably will, but then again, I come back to


the point about Donald Trump and his tax returns. People want to see it


and it is important because... But why should that openness and


transparency not be foisted upon Donald Trump in the same way? It


should be but none of us could say the media in America and


international media have not probed into Donald Trump, he has been the


topic of almost every conversation and it has not been flattering.


People do want to see his records and they showed, but they literally


saw on video over and over Clinton struggling to get into that car and


the image will play with voters rightly or wrongly and it will be


politically damaging. What was your reaction when you saw the footage?


When I was campaigning, I got a really sore throat and I felt


rubbish because I was tired. So you think this is a mountain out of a


mole hill? To be fair, I am not American and I do not understand the


American psyche and how they might interpret it but in this country, we


might think, they are working hard, they are exhausted, that might be a


good thing. I am safe to say you are not 69, she is a bit older and


running for the top job. Should more scrutiny not be placed on whether


she is up to it physically? Not really, the woman is just exhausted,


that simple. What did you think? Being 60, I kind of know that you


get a bit more exhausted. But I was thinking, look at the post-World War


II figures, Churchill, the goal, they were well beyond 69. -- General


De Gaulle. But she has been working extremely hard and I could not keep


up that pace. She was in the air for the five-year she was Secretary of


State. In the air hovering over us. She is obviously a beast for work.


And my guess is that having stored in heavy woollen suits in the middle


of September in a synagogue in New York as a boy and wishing I could go


to sleep, she is in a very heavy suit, in a warm morning on a 9-11


memorial and already under the weather, trust me, it could go the


wrong way very quickly. This is an e-mail from the Trump team, Donald


Trump says he hopes she gets well soon and gets back on the Trail. He


does not think they will replace her with somebody else, he has had a


physical and will release his details soon but he does think it is


an issue. Surprisingly! The biggest problem Hillary has is he has said


for a long time her health issues are worse than what we saw and this


feeds into this, whether it is true or not, that the establishment is


protecting Hillary Clinton. I wish her well, it sounds like she was


overheated and she has pneumonia and that is terrible, I am sure she will


recover. The biggest issue is why the American people, after seeing


that footage, did not hear immediately about the root cause of


the problem and it reiterates they are not being told the full truth.


That is not about her health but the narrative around it. In two weeks,


it is the debates, will that be the focus and this will be put behind


them? If Donald Trump has not said something in the last five days to


change the conversation. In two weeks, that will be the moment.


Because there will be side-by-side. It Donald Trump appears in a certain


way presidential, that will be but a goal for him. Everybody knows she


has the competence to do the job but the question is... Some of us


seriously doubt that, actually! Very briefly, what happens if she does


drop out and is not able to continue, there is no protocol? No,


we had the same conversation three weeks ago about Donald Trump when he


was cratering in the polls. I don't know what happens and it is not


worth speculating on because it is not going to happen. Both of you,


thank you. Only a more weeks of this!


Now let's look at what else is coming up in


As we've been hearing, this afternoon, Education Secretary


Justine Greening will make a statement setting out


the Government's proposals on grammar schools in Parliament.


Tomorrow sees the Second Reading of the Digital Economy Bill,


the first major outing for the new Culture


Wednesday will see Theresa May debating with Jeremy Corbyn


at Prime Minister's Questions, in their weekly head-to-head.


On Thursday, the Bank of England will announce its latest


The Bank's Monetary Policy Committee cut rates to a historic low of 0.25%


And on Friday, the new leader of UKIP will be announced


at the party's conference in Bournemouth.


The bookies' favourite is UKIP's Deputy Chair,


We're joined now from College Green by Laura Hughes,


from the Daily Telegraph, and George Eaton, the Political


Laura, what do you think the motivation is for Theresa May


pressing ahead with grammar schools? We have a party conference


approaching and it is a clever move, it is incredibly popular amongst


grassroots. She is making a clear break from David Cameron, under whom


they felt a little bit unloved. We still have questions about Brexit,


people are asking what it means in terms of access to the single


market. It is something grassroots can unite around. It is pretty


popular amongst most Tory MPs. A few are unhappy, but it is quite clever


in the run-up to conference season. Listening to Laura saying it is


going to be popular with grassroots, can she deliver it through the


system, parliamentary system? In the Commons, it will be quite tight


because she has a working majority of just 16. Nicky Morgan has already


come out against the proposals. The Conservative chair of the Education


Select Committee sounded quite sceptical. She should be reassured


that Michael Gove has signalled he will not oppose the move. He could


have spearheaded a revolt. The real problem is potentially the Lords,


where the Conservatives have no majority. The Lords, traditionally,


respects items that were included in manifestos, but the Conservative


manifesto in 2015 made no mention of new grammar schools. This is why


Theresa May is advancing quite cautiously on this. They have gone


for a Green paper first, quite a contrast with 9010, when Michael


Gove ramrod had the academies act through Parliament.


The strikes are still planned to go ahead in October, the junior


doctors, is this something Theresa May is just going to let Jeremy Hunt


continue with, the tact he has taken up until now? She was very quick to


come out and defend Jeremy Hunt, she accused junior doctors and the BMA


of playing politics. She was quite harsh, quite immediately. Theresa


May totals about the social reform agenda. A lot of union members might


be interested in what she has to say. If she is clever, she will try


to appeal to them. They are really worried about Brexit and that is


something they can talk about. David Cameron, during the referendum


campaign, reached out and spoke with union leaders, pretty unprecedented,


and said, right, we will relax a few bits you are worried about if you


get a bit of money towards the EU referendum campaign. I think it


proves that Tory leaders can work with union leaders. There are union


leaders that I worried about Jeremy Corbyn, worried about his policy on


Trident. Theresa May would be, it would be inherent rests to show she


was taking a different direction from the previous government. Is


this an opportunity, in the week of the TUC, to try to build bridges


with unions, including the BMA? Absolutely, it is something David


Cameron made an attempt to do at the start of his leadership. She made


proposals that are quite union friendly, such as employee


representation on company boards, more shareholder control of


executive pay. With the NHS, the big question, as it often is for


governments, is where is the extra money coming from? The service is


making it clear it need significantly more money, just to


maintain services at the level that the public expect, let alone moving


towards a new seven-day service. That is something the Chancellor,


Philip Hammond, will have to address in the Autumn Statement, which we


now know will be at the end of November. Briefly, from both of you,


it is a year since Jeremy Corbyn became leader and the poll ratings


are pretty disastrous. What do you think in terms of looking at? This


is a one-year anniversary for Jeremy Corbyn, and he is not popular, 11


points behind the Conservatives, the worst result for a Labour Leader a


year after they were elected. But we were


looking at the leadership election and I think is going to win that,


really popular amongst the grassroots of the Labour Party and,


for him, right now, that is what matters. Absolutely, there was one


election he was focused on, the Labour leadership election. The


indicators are that he will win by as much as he did last time, perhaps


even a bigger margin. A lot of Labour members do not blame Jeremy


Corbyn for his popularity, they blame the MPs that launched a coup


against him, who they now want to unite behind, the leader.


Yes, that's right, the political conference season.


The Trade Union Congress getting underway in Brighton today.


TUC General Secretary Frances O'Grady has been addressing


delegates at the conference this morning, calling


on the new Prime Minister, Theresa May, to ensure rights


for workers are protected in the forthcoming Brexit negotiations.


We can speak to Frances O'Grady now from the conference.


Hello. Hello. You talked about sports direct and zero hour


contracts in your speech this morning. You also pledged that trade


unions will shine a light on shady businesses that treat workers like


animals. Were you thinking of any particular? Well, I certainly was. I


think the important thing to know is that sports director is not the only


one. We have seen a pretty good victory for Unite, the union


organising their and the combined union power in that shareholder


meeting. But it is not just about sports direct. We know that zero


hours has spread all over the country. It has risen by a fifth.


Nearly 1 million workers on contracts now. It goes beyond zero


hour contracts. We have too many employers using sham


self-employment, as we have seen at Uber and Hermes, where it is just a


way of getting around having to give workers' rights like respite and


sick pay that they deserve. I have given notice to those companies that


do treat workers badly that we're not going to stop at Sports Direct.


The new Prime Minister has proposed putting workers on boards. Do you


see Theresa May as an ally in your campaign for better rights for


workers? I was very clear today that if Theresa May wants to have genuine


elections so that we see workers on boards, then we will support that


because it is something that the TUC and unions have long campaigned for.


That is something the public want. We want to see some common sense and


reality in the boardroom, and maybe tackle some of that top pay problem


as well. What about comments by Liam Fox, the international trade


Secretary, reporting to say that too many British businesses are fat and


lazy. Do you agree with him? I guess I think he is not a great sales wrap


for Britain if he is going around the world saying that at a time when


he is supposed to be exploring trade deals. I think we need to be serious


about this. Is he right? Now that the election, the referendum


campaign is over, I think everybody needs to come down off their


soapbox, roll up their sleeves and try to get the best deal for


Britain. The best deal for British workers. Let's be clear, working


people still have not recovered from the financial crash. Brexit


introduces uncertainty, we want the Government to make sure that unions


are at the table alongside business to get workers and Britain the best


deal we can. Let's talk about Brexit and a deal that is going to be done


by the Government. You believe it would be best for the economy if we


remain members of the single market. Do you think the benefits of single


market membership are worth it if it also means the country has to


sacrifice of the things you are campaigning for, like state aid for


industries, like the steel industry, or rail nationalisation? I think we


are all keen on bringing the railways back into public control.


But you wouldn't be able to as a member of the single market. You


would not be able to, that would be in breach of EU competition laws if


we were members of the single market. We would then be put aside?


I'm afraid that it EU competition laws were often used as a very


convenient excuse by Westminster governments to do things they didn't


want to do anyway. We have often heard Brussels blamed, for example,


about Chinese steel, when in fact it was the UK Government that was


blocking the tariffs that we wanted to see to stop the dumping of cheap


Chinese steel. What about state aid? If you are not allowed to give state


money to prop up industries like steel, which he would not be able to


under EU laws as they stand, you would be prevented from doing some


of the things you want? I think you only have to look at Germany, France


and Italy to see that state money does go to support industries when


governments have the will to do it. We were looking for the same from


Westminster. I think the serious point here is that we know a lot of


good jobs, people's rights depend on that good relationship with the EU.


A lot of exports go to the EU, in manufacturing. We need to get all of


this, get a bit sensible about how we get a fair deal. In my experience


as a negotiator, that requires some give and take from both sides. Thank


you very much. Briefly, Gisela Stuart Cullen she wants a fair deal,


but wants to remain, a member of the single market? This is an example,


the organisation like Change Britain, we can bring together the


points, the fear of what the trade-offs are, and break the link


that was at the core of the Leave the vote. He break the link between


trade and people. It's a year to the day


since Jeremy Corbyn was elected Doesn't time fly when


you're having fun? It's fair to say he's had


an eventful 12 months. Here's our Adam, indulging


in a spot of nostagligia. MUSIC: "Lust for Life"


by Iggy Pop. We need to be investing in skills,


investing in our young people. So, I sent out an e-mail


to thousands of people and asked them what questions they would


like to put to the Prime Minister. Choose victory in numerous


by-elections, mayoral and council elections,


which you celebrate We were getting predictions


that Labour was going To assist Comrade Osborne


in his dealings with his new-found comrades, I have brought him along


Mao's Little Red Book. I feel I served in


the best way I can. Thank you to UB40 for


this incredible endorsement. However busy I am, my


allotment is tended. Had them the other night,


a lovely bean soup. Just be careful when


you go trainspotting. Well, joining us to reflect


on Jeremy Corbyn's first year is Sam Tarry, director


of his leadership campaign, and Frances O'Grady is still


with us from Brighton. What would you say is his biggest


achievement? Some of the U-turns he has forced out of the government,


personal independence payments, Iain Duncan Smith, the fact he was not


able to remove the prerequisite of having income as a definition of


poverty was incredibly important. You think has presided over a period


where Labour has formed a justifiably strong opposition? It


can obviously be improved, but quite clearly, for me, there has been


dramatic change in British politics and he is at the head of that. Would


you agree, Gisela? Where we have taken our eye off the ball is the


clear determination that whatever your values, unless you are


transforming a Government, you cannot translate it into practice.


That will be the challenge between MPs and members. Don't blame each


other, say we have a collective aim and to reflect our values we have to


do more than just that at Westminster. I agree, I can't wait


to get those MPs, having gone back to their constituencies, having seen


sense, the strength of feeling amongst the membership, to come back


on board and take the opposition to the Government. The constituents


deserve it more than anything else. Do think it was Labour MPs and


Jeremy Corbyn that got the U-turns, or was it down to Tory MPs? I am not


a natural bloater, I did find myself going PIP, tax credits, I think I


was involved in that. I like him, as a human being, he is showing a


different way to behave. When I became into politics, I was


determined not to behave in the old-fashioned ways, he said, she


said, I am not interested in that. But he has to be competent. He is


not leading his party and he needs to do that. Voters matter, not just


MPs and members. Frances O'Grady said that. Without them, you are


powerless. That is backed up by the polls, they are dramatic in terms of


support for Labour. They are 11 points behind conservatives. In


terms of favourability, he is 64 points behind Theresa May. They are


dreadful. The party had not been tearing itself apart, they would be


in a better position. You think is favourability would be better?


Jeremy was doing much better before the coup, nobody wants to vote for a


party where the majority of MPs or attacking the leader on a nonstop


basis. We want to put in place a programme, when Jeremy wins next


week, to ensure that we go into Government and we want the MPs back


on board to do that. Is it in fighting, or Jeremy Corbyn? The


infighting is a reflection that we have not got enough of a voice for


those people who have got the right to expect we represent them and


stand for them. You're quite right, after the leadership election, we


need to come together. Not talk to each other all the time, the Pope to


those that want to vote for us. That has to be a effort. -- it has to be


a joint effort. My politics are not where Jeremy is, Owen Smith promises


a second referendum and I think at that stage I look at the ballot


paper and scratch my head. You do not think Jeremy can lead, it


and Owen Smith, you disagree with him completely over Europe so


somewhere, you have to make a decision. Fortunately on this


occasion, my vote is only one among millions and whatever the decision


is, I will work with whoever gets elected. And what you say to MPs his


have voted no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn, should they do the same? Now


that you have the second election, we need to work together. But that


puts the onus on the leader to make sure they are followers. It is wrong


to assume it is the responsibility of the followers to follow their


leader, it is the leader's responsibility to reach out and make


sure those people with them their followers. In trying gate, there was


a row whether there were seats on the train Jeremy Corbyn was sitting


on, was that a low point? I do not think so, he did well after that and


during the full course of time, that probably will come out. What is more


interesting is we are looking forward now to speaking to MPs and


saying we have to make this work, we have to make this work, we know the


constituents desperately want to make it work and now we need to look


forward to what can be in the manifesto? And how on Earth do we


use the 600,000 people and the fact the Labour Party has more money than


ever before to fight a general election? That is what we are


interested in. But it is not just about the members but the voters and


the parliamentary party. Has Jeremy Corbyn really succeeded in reaching


out to voters beyond the Labour Party membership? I think the


message on the economy, his message of reaching out to communities, the


communities I come from in East London that voted in large numbers


of baulk Brexit, we need to win the next election and we are more


prepared to listen to Jeremy. Why is it not translating in the polls, it


is going the other way? We have an inward facing contest and we have


not had chance to face outward. We are confident MPs will see sense and


come back on board as take that message of economic renewal to


communities who voted Brexit. In terms of the Shadow Cabinet


elections, the proposal voted on by the Labour MPs, whether it goes


ahead or not, would you like to see members electing people to the


Shadow Cabinet? All you have then it is you have slates being wrong and


you go back to the battles of the 1980s and the interest groups think


it is it delegation. I was elected to exercise my judgment on behalf of


my constituents and I have a responsibility to represent the


entire constituency as a Labour MP with those values. The real


difficulty is there is a perception there is a world inside the M25


Circle and outside it and the challenge for the Labour Party is to


reach out to the sections outside and that is something the leader has


to take responsibility for. I am absolutely looking forward to doing


that, I believe his policies and strategy can reach out to those


communities beyond the M25, absolutely. Let's see! Thank you.


Economic enrichment, vocational training,


Professor Alison Wolf, who's also a cross-bencher peer,


thinks that our universities have become money machines, offering


It is an exciting time for many 18 and 19-year-olds.


New friends, new studies, living away from home.


They are also part of a mass enterprise.


More teenagers than ever before will start degrees this autumn.


Governments have expanded universities, year upon year,


selling a dream - not of learning, but of wealth.


That is what justifies the fees that students pay and the big loans


The Government wants even more students.


It thinks universities are engines of economic growth and so its new


Higher Education Bill for England makes it easier


Yet many graduates can't repay their loans, so that means


Once, universities recruited small numbers of academic high-performers.


Now, it's a competition to recruit students by the thousands.


Huge lecture theatres like this one define modern universities.


Yet degrees aren't magic wealth machines.


A third of today's graduates are in non-graduate jobs


and the graduates of some universities register no


their average wages are exactly the same as those of people


who did not go to university and who don't have student loans.


English 18-year-olds basically have two choices -


Other countries have technical tracks, shorter, cheaper


And she joins us now, you are an economic structure, you biting the


hand that feeds you? If I am, then hopefully, it is for a good reason.


The reality is that for a lot of people, at university does pay and


you learn a great deal. The problem we have in this country is we are


giving 18-year-old is remarkably little choice. Essentially, they


either have to go out into a harsh Labour market with more with more


and more graduates competing or they have to get into this


graduate Labour market and take on huge debts which we know many will


never be able to repay. Do you agree, Heidi Allan, with the point


in the film that if there is no wage premium for going to university,


what is the point? It depends what profession and create you want to go


into. Maybe earning is not what it is all about. When I went to


university, I was the first of my family to go and that was the


conversation you would have, anybody in your family on the university


yet? And it swung the other way you are nobody if you did not go to


university. We have been pushing it into degrees there is a worthless,


at universities with not rigorous standards and they go out


disappointed, and it has to change. Apprenticeships are part of that.


You say it has to change and there was more change, it could change,


but do you want to go back to the elite as time when very few clothes


-- very few kids from from the middle class went to university? Not


at all, I want a slot in the Private members Bill and I did not know what


to do with it! I try to get a Private Members' Bill through about


transparency on fees because it is a consumer think, you take on debt and


you want to know what to get from your money. Let's help youngsters


how many lectures, job prospects, what do I earn? Then people might


choose a different path. Was it wrong for Labour, especially under


Tony Blair, Gisela Stuart, to expand university education for everybody


in the way they wanted a quota of 50% or whatever you could go to go?


You will find the words 50% never crossed my lips for a very good


reason. Alison is one of my heroes. That report on apprenticeships was


so significant. You have a dual system, you have genuine


alternatives. It is not just big employers are employing the


workforce which anybody would do, you have a way to go at 18. That is


the bullet we still have not bitten. I have brilliant universities on my


patch, Birmingham University, but in some cities, we use universities


like regeneration for the city. We have lost that focus of the world of


work and education. If we take on bird -- if we take on board the idea


to produce more apprenticeships to offer something else to


18-year-olds, you have to say, you are not bright enough to go to


university, and they still want to go. You do not have to say that, you


say that you have an old -- and entitlement to a certain amount of


higher education and training, it is up to you what you take and when you


take it. All we offer now is the opportunity to go the ever expanding


universities to take a three-year degree and more and more debt. You


need is to open it up and followed pretty much every other European


country in providing high prestige, technical routes leading out at 18


which we have consistently failed to do. What is the psychological


barrier to it? I think part of the problem is we destroyed


apprenticeships in this country in the 1970s and 1980s and we have


never really taken hold of this fact and made a serious efforts to put it


right. Peace -- people constantly say they believe in apprenticeships


and in purported vocational education and they spend more and


more money expanding more and more universities -- and in vocational.


And we are about to do it again. It looks as though the cost will go


back to the taxpayer are people going to university and even if they


do not earn more and do not always get a job, they cannot pay back the


loans and taxpayers will fund university education. That is the


real risk if we pushed to many in the University when it is not right.


Some of this is legacy and before we have had a chance to make reforms,


we have gone back to students who have educated themselves and that is


not a lot we can do other than help them find work that pays well. We


have to make apprenticeships sexy again. My father was so proud to be


an apprentice, it was great, that is what you did, and that has become


the poor relation. That is starting to change. Degree level


apprenticeships, people feel they can access prestige to a different


vocational way. Thank you very much. There's just time before we go


to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was, who accused


Sky's Dermot Murnaghan of I am afraid it is MLE. In her


defence, I would not have known the Korean President either! -- Emily


Thornberry. This is the exchange. I just wonder, I mean,


have you called the French Foreign No, but they were in the process


of arranging for me to go Don't start pub-quizzing me,


Dermot. Well, he's the French Foreign


Minister, do you know his name? No, and I'm not going to start


answering your questions on this. What really...upsets me


about your attitude to me is that I don't remember you doing it


with anybody else, you know. And I certainly think that


sometimes, when it comes to sexism, some Sky presenters need to look


at themselves too. It really upsets me that every time


I come on here, you do Because you do not do it


with anybody else and I do think It's not, because you are


the Shadow Foreign Secretary. And this was about the French


Foreign Minister, Jean-Marc Ayrault. We have not got time for a quiz, you


will be pleased to know, was sexist? It was good banter but you should


never attacked the presenter. Whatever you tell me, I say yes! I


am delighted to hear that! I want that in writing and on the wall! Was


it sexist? Absolutely not, if you do not know the answer, you have been


caught out, except it and wash. Almost time to ask you, but I will


not! -- just accept it and blush. The One O'Clock News is starting


over on BBC One now. I am delighted I have not been


accused of being sexist and I would never be!


I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big


And the former Education Secretary, Nicky Morgan.


then the Court of Appeal aren't going to change their decision.


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