20/09/2016: Liberal Democrats Conference Daily Politics


20/09/2016: Liberal Democrats Conference

Jo Coburn and Andrew Neil with live coverage of Tim Farron's speech from the Liberal Democrats conference in Brighton.


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Transcript


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Afternoon folks and welcome to this Daily Politics Conference Special.

:00:37.:00:40.

In 45 minutes, Tim Farron will deliver his big conference speech.

:00:41.:00:44.

He'll hope to raise Lib Dem morale at the end of their long

:00:45.:00:47.

We'll bring you that live and uninterrupted.

:00:48.:00:53.

While Tim Farron's on his feet in Brighton, Theresa May will be

:00:54.:00:56.

How will her message of an outward-looking post-Brexit

:00:57.:01:03.

And should the Lib Dems do electoral pacts with other like-minded

:01:04.:01:09.

We asked conference-goers to play ball.

:01:10.:01:15.

Yes, it's a Daily Politics special to bring you live coverage

:01:16.:01:31.

of the conference speech of the Liberal Democrat

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He may only have eight MPs to show for the 2.4 million people who voted

:01:35.:01:41.

But they're meeting for their annual conference not in a phone box -

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as some of the crueller commentators have suggested -

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but in Brighton, And Mr Farron, who's said he'd like to imitate

:01:52.:01:53.

the Canadian Liberal leader and president Justin Trudeau,

:01:54.:01:57.

is going to tell his party that he too can help the party

:01:58.:02:02.

We're sure he didn't want any other comparisons to be drawn

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with the international heartthrob Mr Trudeau.

:02:08.:02:11.

And joining us to listen to the speech, one Lib Dem who knows

:02:12.:02:17.

a bit about the party both in and out of power,

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Polly Mackenzie - she worked for Nick Clegg in Downing Street

:02:20.:02:22.

There's been a lot of talk about Liberal Democrats about recent

:02:23.:02:35.

by-election wins. That smacks of a throwback to the past when that was

:02:36.:02:39.

the only evidence the Lib Dems had of any popularity with voters? There

:02:40.:02:42.

haven't been many general elections in the past year for them to measure

:02:43.:02:45.

themselves against or Parliamentary contests, so in a way it's not

:02:46.:02:49.

surprising the only thing that's happening in electoral politics is

:02:50.:02:53.

things like membership numbers and local council by-elections. They are

:02:54.:02:58.

seizing those opportunities. You are right it's not sufficient as a path

:02:59.:03:01.

back to power but it's a start. Smacks of desperation? It's the only

:03:02.:03:05.

thing going, better to do something than nothing. General election

:03:06.:03:09.

aside, there were the London Mayoral elections, they pitted those as

:03:10.:03:12.

something they would do well in and didn't. They came fourth and fifth.

:03:13.:03:17.

Londoners are particularly challenging for Liberal Democrats

:03:18.:03:21.

and it's never... Very pro-European? Exactly, it's because all the

:03:22.:03:25.

parties adopt a centre Liberal narrative, the Conservatives are

:03:26.:03:29.

liberal, the Labour Party is in London and that means there isn't

:03:30.:03:32.

space for the Liberal Democrats, it's across the country where the

:03:33.:03:35.

Liberal voice might have more of an opportunity. Apparently former MPs

:03:36.:03:45.

like Vince Cable and others are on snap election alert. Is that wise?

:03:46.:03:48.

It's possible there is going to be an election. Do you believe that? I

:03:49.:03:53.

think that it's possible. It doesn't look particularly likely to me but

:03:54.:03:57.

again better to be prepared and ready to campaign than in a mess

:03:58.:04:01.

like the Labour Party is. So is that the sort of talk amongst Lib Dems

:04:02.:04:05.

and should it be in your mind that they are poised to spring into

:04:06.:04:09.

action and campaign in their former seats that they lost in the general

:04:10.:04:13.

election on an issue, for instance, like a second referendum on the deal

:04:14.:04:19.

for Brexit? I think Tim's started to set out a clear message which he

:04:20.:04:23.

would put forward if there was a general election soon. If Theresa

:04:24.:04:26.

May did decide to call an election, who knows what it would be about.

:04:27.:04:30.

The noise is about grammar schools but I can't imagine her calling an

:04:31.:04:34.

election on that. So actually focussing on the big issue of the

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day which is Brexit and setting our our position on it makes sense to

:04:38.:04:42.

me. Having been in power in coalition, how much has that damaged

:04:43.:04:45.

on its own the Liberal Democrat brand for any chance of them

:04:46.:04:48.

regaining some of the seats they lost? Well, I mean, it's pretty

:04:49.:04:53.

obvious isn't it, they are down to eight seats and we paid a huge price

:04:54.:04:58.

for the five years in power where we got to change the country in a whole

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variety of ways in a way we spent 70 years of political capital on that

:05:03.:05:06.

five years in power, I hope it doesn't take 70 years to get back

:05:07.:05:10.

but it would be fool hardy to pretend the impact hasn't been

:05:11.:05:15.

enormous. We have given away none of the above vote and it seems to be

:05:16.:05:19.

lodged firmly with Ukip at the moment and that's heartbreaking for

:05:20.:05:24.

me to see that kind of generic anyone but Labour or Conservatives

:05:25.:05:28.

vote lodged with a party that I basically find abhorrent. What is

:05:29.:05:31.

the strongest message for the Liberal Democrats now? The message

:05:32.:05:35.

that Tim is really pushing is that he is the leader who can unite

:05:36.:05:39.

parties around the centre-left and be the decent opposition to the

:05:40.:05:45.

Conservatives. There isn't a decent position at the moment and actually

:05:46.:05:49.

fining, as Theresa May develops as the Prime Minister, and stumbles,

:05:50.:05:54.

there does need to be a voice. How can there be that position with the

:05:55.:05:58.

MPs? Well, it's challenging. It would be easier... British

:05:59.:06:02.

understatement isn't it? Jeremy Corbyn isn't doing a very good job

:06:03.:06:05.

so there is a vacancy there for decent strong voices. It comes down

:06:06.:06:11.

to ideas. A remarkable result at the next election say in 2020, a

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remarkable result would be 20 Lib Dem seats from eight. I think

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inlikely but remarkable if it happened? How could you be in

:06:21.:06:25.

opposition with even 20 seats. It's nonsense isn't it? The question is,

:06:26.:06:30.

can you start to tell a story of a different country and a future

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narrative and a future approach to governing the country. But you are

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right, like I said, it could be 70 years for the Liberal Democrats to

:06:38.:06:40.

build up. Probably a generation isn't it? But actually, every

:06:41.:06:45.

general election you double or triple your remit takes, you can see

:06:46.:06:50.

a path back to 50-60 MPs as we were before. Things change in politics.

:06:51.:06:54.

Do you think the very policies the Liberal Democrats as they see

:06:55.:06:58.

themselves as the centre party of the political spectrum, that they'll

:06:59.:07:02.

be rejected, they have been rejected in Brexit, some of the

:07:03.:07:06.

internationalist views have been rejected by the electorate as they

:07:07.:07:09.

have looked to Ukip or perhaps Jeremy Corbyn and the Conservatives,

:07:10.:07:13.

that that space in the middle, although it's a gaping hole, is not

:07:14.:07:19.

one that interests voters? Except remember the Brexit vote was 48-52.

:07:20.:07:24.

There are a lot that share the views of the Liberal Democrats, 40% above

:07:25.:07:27.

where the Lib Demes are doing in the polls at the moment so there is a

:07:28.:07:30.

big market out there. You have to remember that Tim's objective at the

:07:31.:07:33.

moment is to rebuild, as Andrew said, maybe to 20 or 30 seats or to

:07:34.:07:39.

go beyond that. He's not trying to be a majority Government with 52% of

:07:40.:07:48.

the vote. I don't understand, his policy that's most distinct at the

:07:49.:07:51.

moment, is to have another referendum, to have a second

:07:52.:07:55.

referendum on Europe once the Brexit deal is done. But his top target

:07:56.:08:04.

seats are North Devon, St Ives, North Cornwall, Yeovil. Do you want

:08:05.:08:07.

me to tell you the majorities of Brexit in these constituencies? Go

:08:08.:08:12.

on then? Huge. 60-40 in some cases. How does that work? Again it's

:08:13.:08:16.

nonsense. How can you take that position and target seats which are

:08:17.:08:21.

overwhelmingly Euro-sceptic? It's a question of bringing together the

:08:22.:08:26.

strong local campaigning, the increasing disenfranchisement people

:08:27.:08:28.

will have with the Government of the day, and also I think what we'll see

:08:29.:08:32.

in Tim's speech is him starting to build other policies to come around

:08:33.:08:35.

that, to talking about education and health. We have seen announcements

:08:36.:08:39.

there. To build a clearer narrative about an opposition. Can we agree

:08:40.:08:45.

that calling for another referendum won't help? OK.

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On that point, we agree. We'll move on.

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I think it's fair to say that the number of journalists

:08:53.:08:54.

at the seaside with the Lib Dems is smaller than it has

:08:55.:08:57.

But after an exhaustive search, we've found two brave souls who have

:08:58.:09:01.

travelled to Brighton to listen to Mr Farron -

:09:02.:09:04.

it's Matt Chorley from the Times and Kate McCann from the Telegraph.

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Set the scene for us, Matt Chorley, what is it like down there?

:09:11.:09:17.

A bit drizzly. Some came down hoping for a bit of sunshine. It's not a

:09:18.:09:21.

weather forecast I'm looking for, it's a political forecast? Yeah... I

:09:22.:09:26.

mean, as ever with the Lib Dems, they are relentlessly optimistic

:09:27.:09:29.

about the future, it's all going to be all right in tend, as it has

:09:30.:09:33.

been, the time through the coalition, they said it was going to

:09:34.:09:36.

be all right in the end. We know what happened. They are still

:09:37.:09:40.

optimistic in politics, they think it's going to be all right. Kate,

:09:41.:09:44.

how do you take it? Certainly quieter than it has been in previous

:09:45.:09:50.

years and I think Tim Farron has a challenge with his speech this

:09:51.:09:53.

morning to get people revved up for the year ahead. There should be a

:09:54.:09:57.

few interesting things he's going to say about National Health Service

:09:58.:09:59.

and the schools. He's probably going to make an appeal to Labour voters.

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So that could be worth watching out for. Do you think anybody is

:10:03.:10:08.

listening? That's the big problem isn't it. 8%

:10:09.:10:14.

of the polls now, theynded 2010 at 8% after all the tuition fees stuff,

:10:15.:10:18.

left Government at 8% and are still there. It seems no matter what they

:10:19.:10:25.

do, change of leader, being out of Government, relentlily pro-European,

:10:26.:10:27.

it doesn't make any difference. Nobody else seems to be listening.

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They are still 8% and Tim Farron is working harder in trying to change

:10:33.:10:36.

that with increasingly bold language, taking on issues that

:10:37.:10:39.

maybe other political parties wouldn't. Whether that is putting up

:10:40.:10:44.

taxes, legalising cannabis or appealing to the Labour moderates,

:10:45.:10:48.

if you like, but the big problem is, we are here, but it's whether anyone

:10:49.:10:51.

else is. Isn't the problem that they face

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Kate, that you have got, the Labour moving further to the left, lots of

:10:56.:11:04.

unhappy centrist Labour MPs and, on the Conservative side centrist Tory

:11:05.:11:09.

MPs unhappy about the Brexit vote, they wanted to stay in. Mr Farron is

:11:10.:11:15.

presenting himself as a centries or moderate centre left, strongly

:11:16.:11:19.

pro-EU, but nobody wants to hug him, nobody's hugged him? Well, I mean,

:11:20.:11:24.

maybe it's still early days and Tim Farron is hoping he can make an

:11:25.:11:27.

impression in the coming months when things become a bit more stark

:11:28.:11:31.

perhaps. You don't sound very convinced by that? Well, I hate to

:11:32.:11:35.

make predictions given what's happened recently. I wouldn't want

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to put my money on any particular outcome but what I will say is if

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Jeremy Corbyn is elected on Saturday, the choice for some Labour

:11:44.:11:46.

voters will become very stark very quickly and I think Tim Farron is

:11:47.:11:50.

hoping that if he continues to make a clear message and appeal to the

:11:51.:11:53.

voters that he is the way to go, that could shift opinions and

:11:54.:11:56.

perhaps he might have time to do that if Theresa May is determined

:11:57.:12:01.

not to call an election until 2020. But Matt Chorley, is there any

:12:02.:12:06.

evidence, any indication that disillusioned centrists on either of

:12:07.:12:10.

the two main parties are thinking of hugging Tim Farron? No. Bluntly. The

:12:11.:12:18.

problem is you are absolutely right. There is this huge area in the

:12:19.:12:22.

political sector which has opened up for something to try and appeal to

:12:23.:12:27.

both voters and MPs in that area. The problem is the Lib Dems aren't

:12:28.:12:31.

being seen as the vehicle on that. There's only 8 of them in the House

:12:32.:12:37.

of Commons so things need to be pretty bad for disaffected Labour MP

:12:38.:12:40.

and they are bad for a lot of Labour MPs on the benches. To give up the

:12:41.:12:45.

position of being in the region of 200 or something, to move across

:12:46.:12:47.

that dead corner in the House of Commons where there's only 8, you

:12:48.:12:51.

have to be fed up to do that. That is the problem, if there were 3020

:12:52.:12:56.

or 30 left, there might be more appeal there. As a vehicle for that,

:12:57.:13:02.

that is the big problem -- 20 or 30. Kate, there is a poll in the London

:13:03.:13:07.

Evening Standard today, Jo will be talking more about that later, but

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it shows that the party itself is six or seven points in the polls now

:13:14.:13:20.

single figures still. And it also shows Mr Farron's own personal

:13:21.:13:23.

ratings have flatlined since he became leader, that he has made no

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cut through, no impact, as of yet on the British public? That's true. I

:13:29.:13:32.

wonder how long it might take before we see the Lib Dems start to ask if

:13:33.:13:36.

Tim Farron might be the problem. I hate to say it minutes before the

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big speech, but Nick Clegg... It's the alternative option that's

:13:43.:13:45.

probably the worse. You never know, Nick Clegg may come back, there was

:13:46.:13:51.

Clegg mania, nobody saw that coming, maybe he might come back if he were

:13:52.:13:54.

interested in taking up that position again. We'll have to leave

:13:55.:14:00.

it there. But Matt Chorley, you do this thing called red box or blue

:14:01.:14:04.

box or something is that right? Red box, that's right. And usual giving

:14:05.:14:15.

away mugs. I mean, the sheer rip-off of the Daily Politics! Are you not

:14:16.:14:19.

ashamed of yourself? These are nice mugs. Should be ashamed of yourself.

:14:20.:14:26.

These are very expensive. I'm reaching out to disaffected Daily

:14:27.:14:29.

Express mug fans. You are not going to sell many then!

:14:30.:14:35.

-- Daily Politics mug fans. Thanks for your time this afternoon

:14:36.:14:40.

and remember, folks, there's only one real thing when it comes to

:14:41.:14:44.

muggings. Mugs. Same thing? ! Former Lib Dem leader Paddy Ashdown

:14:45.:14:51.

raised a few eyebrows earlier this week when he suggested that parties

:14:52.:14:54.

on the left should agree on one candidate to take

:14:55.:14:58.

on the Conservatives in the Witney So what did party members

:14:59.:15:01.

in Brighton make of Eleanor Garnier's taken

:15:02.:15:08.

the moodbox to find out. The general election might be a few

:15:09.:15:13.

years away but there is a certain But should they just

:15:14.:15:16.

be one candidate Should the other

:15:17.:15:19.

parties do a deal or no Oh, look, Nick Clegg

:15:20.:15:23.

is doing a book signing. In Witney, do you think there should

:15:24.:15:27.

be a deal between the other parties or just one party,

:15:28.:15:31.

one candidate going up against the You would have to ask the

:15:32.:15:34.

leader that. No deal, I think we

:15:35.:15:45.

can win on our own. We don't need anybody else

:15:46.:15:52.

to differ, we hope we can win Witney and will

:15:53.:15:56.

fight as hard as we can. Because otherwise we

:15:57.:15:58.

are very unlikely to unseat them, and there is more

:15:59.:16:05.

That we agree on land don't agree If it was one candidate

:16:06.:16:08.

and it was our candidate then yes. But on the basis it will not

:16:09.:16:12.

probably be that arrangement and the Labour

:16:13.:16:14.

Party wouldn't stand for it, then it I know, its ballot

:16:15.:16:17.

rigging, I got caught in Because I think it's an opportunity

:16:18.:16:27.

to begin to kind of focus and go We are quite capable

:16:28.:16:35.

of making a big impact in We were involved in the Eastleigh

:16:36.:16:45.

by-election and I remember most of the motorways up and down

:16:46.:16:50.

the country being jammed with I don't think Labour

:16:51.:16:53.

is very competitive, so I would be happy for them

:16:54.:16:59.

to stand and lose. I think the progressive

:17:00.:17:01.

parties should work together for a common cause,

:17:02.:17:07.

belief in Europe and belief in We have made it to the end

:17:08.:17:10.

of the Nick Clegg book signing Let's go downstairs

:17:11.:17:14.

and find some more people. Can we ask you a very

:17:15.:17:19.

quick question? Should all the other

:17:20.:17:24.

parties do a deal or no Here you go, help

:17:25.:17:32.

yourself to a ball. I'm convinced we have a Lib Dem,

:17:33.:17:43.

strongly, to stand against whoever the Tories put up and I hope

:17:44.:17:47.

the people will vote for them and show what they think

:17:48.:17:50.

of this government 's. I'm a great believer

:17:51.:17:54.

in democracy and democracy means all the parties should

:17:55.:18:03.

stand a candidate 's. After that exhausting lap

:18:04.:18:09.

of the Lib Dem conference, the I think there is a programme called

:18:10.:18:11.

deal or no Deal... I'm joined now from Norwich

:18:12.:18:26.

by the Shadow Defence He's a Labour MP keen on the idea

:18:27.:18:29.

of more co-operation You are firmly behind this idea of

:18:30.:18:39.

cooperating with the Liberal Democrats, for example in the seat

:18:40.:18:43.

of Witney? It's something I have given some thought to. It's not for

:18:44.:18:47.

me to make that decision. What do you think? I think the idea of

:18:48.:18:52.

Progressive parties working together and coming together to work on

:18:53.:18:56.

issues they agree with has a lot of merit and it's something I'm

:18:57.:19:00.

interested in. It seems a bit show businesslike, in terms of taking on

:19:01.:19:03.

David Cameron, there is some merit in it but I think it's a bit

:19:04.:19:11.

short-sighted. I think the whole concept of Progressive Alliance is a

:19:12.:19:14.

longer term thing than one by-election standing against David

:19:15.:19:16.

Cameron. As delightful as it would be to see the Tories beaten in that

:19:17.:19:21.

seat. Do you think it would work in Witney? I think it's a very short

:19:22.:19:25.

time frame to cobble together a candidate on which everyone can

:19:26.:19:31.

agree. In Tatton you had a candidate everyone realised was the right

:19:32.:19:35.

person for that particular seat, taking on Neil Hamilton. I don't

:19:36.:19:40.

know if you will find that kind of Parliamentary candidate in time.

:19:41.:19:44.

Putting aside Witney, how would it work in other seats in the longer

:19:45.:19:49.

term, who would stand for whom? I think what you're trying to do here

:19:50.:19:54.

is talking about some of electoral pact. That's exactly what it is. A

:19:55.:19:59.

lot of work has to be done on this. If that was the case then it is

:20:00.:20:03.

something all progressive political parties would need to talk about.

:20:04.:20:09.

Another issue here, the concept of what you would stand on. The key

:20:10.:20:13.

issues I think most progressive parties, including Ukip, which isn't

:20:14.:20:17.

a Progressive party, would agree on, is that we need to change the

:20:18.:20:21.

electoral system to a proportional representation system. If you make

:20:22.:20:25.

that the key thing around which you focus your general election

:20:26.:20:30.

campaign, we all believe that you need PR, get over the first past the

:20:31.:20:35.

post line, and then initiate proportional representation and call

:20:36.:20:38.

another elections. There are lots of options but we need to start the

:20:39.:20:43.

discussion. We are starting it here on the programme. Polly can enter

:20:44.:20:48.

into this. On that basis, if the goal was changing the electoral

:20:49.:20:51.

system, for example, would it be worth it going in with Clive Lewis

:20:52.:20:56.

and his party? I don't disagree with anything Clive Lewis has said,

:20:57.:21:00.

really. I have long thought proportional representation, a

:21:01.:21:05.

change to our voting system would be a tremendous change for our

:21:06.:21:08.

democracy. We had a referendum on a voting system change in 2011. It

:21:09.:21:14.

wasn't PR, but the idea you can bring together a Progressive

:21:15.:21:18.

Alliance and win a majority on the basis of delivering proportional

:21:19.:21:23.

representation is a bit ambitious. Clive Lewis, what did you want to

:21:24.:21:28.

say? I think political parties would stand on a manifesto other than just

:21:29.:21:32.

PR. But one thing they could all agree on is that if they get past

:21:33.:21:36.

the first past the post system and get in, then PR would be the big

:21:37.:21:40.

thing we would instigate and then you could potentially call another

:21:41.:21:44.

election based on PR and go your separate ways or call alliances as

:21:45.:21:48.

you see fit. All political parties would have on manifesto but they

:21:49.:21:54.

would have that running through them. Chopping up who gets what, it

:21:55.:22:01.

feels like a shady backroom deal, precisely what we are trying to

:22:02.:22:07.

abolish. No. It's a challenge and nobly has put forward an answer to

:22:08.:22:12.

solve that conundrum. Clive Lewis is in a seat in Norwich South which is

:22:13.:22:18.

quite precarious, stuffed with Green Party and Liberal Democrat voters.

:22:19.:22:26.

In terms of a Progressive Alliance, it's not simply about what's in the

:22:27.:22:29.

interest of one particular party. We all understand that having a

:22:30.:22:32.

political system, a voting system that gives people a real say... You

:22:33.:22:37.

have said that. Ultimately that's what this is about and what it comes

:22:38.:22:44.

down to. This can't be a top-down, we will tell our local parties how

:22:45.:22:49.

they were going to... Would you step aside in your seat to allow a

:22:50.:22:53.

Liberal Democrat or green, for example, to stand on common themes

:22:54.:22:58.

you agreed with in order to keep the seat from the Tories? I have thought

:22:59.:23:04.

long and hard about this. If there was an electoral pact and a

:23:05.:23:08.

Progressive Alliance where it was the difference between actually

:23:09.:23:10.

having a voting system that enabled our democracy to have a better form

:23:11.:23:16.

of governance, then yes I would. When you look at at how the little

:23:17.:23:22.

Democrats are polling at the moment, any chance to win a seat for a

:23:23.:23:25.

Progressive Alliance left would be a good thing. Yes, and Clive shows

:23:26.:23:33.

great honour in his willingness to put himself forward. But what we

:23:34.:23:36.

have found is that the most tribal people in the country other

:23:37.:23:39.

political party activists and in the end they deliver the candidates. So

:23:40.:23:44.

getting people to stand aside would be a big challenge. The worst place

:23:45.:23:48.

to start would be Witney, where however many parties you bring

:23:49.:23:52.

together, they would lose. Clive Lewis, which proposal do you back

:23:53.:23:55.

for the Shadow Cabinet elections, should they be elected by MPs, you

:23:56.:24:01.

and your peers, or a hybrid? It's not my decision. But you will have a

:24:02.:24:08.

view. I expressed it yesterday. It will be made by the NEC later today.

:24:09.:24:13.

I personally think if you are going to have a system of electing a

:24:14.:24:17.

Shadow Cabinet, it needs to be part of a wider package of democratic

:24:18.:24:21.

reforms in our party. I think part of that could be how we engage the

:24:22.:24:25.

membership and affiliates in that process and also the MPs, everybody

:24:26.:24:31.

should have a stake. And also the leader. You do like the hybrid? I do

:24:32.:24:39.

prefer that, yes. That's all you had to say! Thank you for coming onto

:24:40.:24:40.

the programme. News coming in from New York as we

:24:41.:24:51.

have been on air, relatives of the man apprehended for the bombings in

:24:52.:24:55.

New York left the country before the bombings. His wife left for Pakistan

:24:56.:25:03.

but was apprehended in the United Arab Emirates before she got to

:25:04.:25:07.

Pakistan. The mother had left for turkey before the attacks and hasn't

:25:08.:25:12.

yet returned. She left several weeks before and hasn't yet return to the

:25:13.:25:16.

United States. That will be part of the ongoing enquiry by the New York

:25:17.:25:18.

police and federal authorities. Now, the Lib Dems yesterday voted

:25:19.:25:21.

to back a policy of calling for a second referendum on the terms

:25:22.:25:24.

of the Brexit deal. Not everyone's happy -

:25:25.:25:27.

Vince Cable warned that such a move But the plan is supported by other

:25:28.:25:29.

senior Liberal Democrats, It's not the first time Mr Cable

:25:30.:25:33.

and Mr Clegg have disagreed. I think under pressure

:25:34.:25:37.

from their more swivel-eyed backbenchers, under pressure

:25:38.:25:42.

from the, sort of, Brexit press, under pressure from their own

:25:43.:25:46.

internal contradictions, they will move remorselessly

:25:47.:25:48.

towards a hard Brexit. Not only taking us out

:25:49.:25:53.

of the European Union, but taking us And when they do that,

:25:54.:25:58.

they will do untold damage They will undo an extraordinary

:25:59.:26:04.

British achievement, the creation of the world's largest

:26:05.:26:09.

borderless marketplace anywhere. And at that point they can never say

:26:10.:26:15.

again, having done so much damage to our great country

:26:16.:26:18.

because of their obsession about Europe, they can never again

:26:19.:26:20.

say that they are a responsible And we're joined now from Brighton

:26:21.:26:23.

by the Liberal Democrat's Home Affairs Spokesman,

:26:24.:26:36.

Alistair Carmichael. Welcome to the programme. Did the

:26:37.:26:49.

Lib Dems propose a second referendum during the referendum campaign? No,

:26:50.:26:55.

we didn't. During the referendum campaign we were out there front and

:26:56.:27:02.

centre making the case to remain part of the European Union. We now

:27:03.:27:06.

have to respond to the results presented to us, and our response is

:27:07.:27:10.

to say that looking at what happened, you had a contest between

:27:11.:27:16.

two propositions. A known one, what we have if we remain, and an

:27:17.:27:21.

unknown, what would happen if we were to leave. It's difficult to

:27:22.:27:26.

make a decision between a known and an unknown. We are now in a position

:27:27.:27:30.

where we are going to have the negotiation and from that we will

:27:31.:27:37.

have a deal. Then we have two known propositions. We say not

:27:38.:27:41.

disrespectful to the voters, just the opposite, it gives voters the

:27:42.:27:46.

final say, having voted for departure, is this the destination

:27:47.:27:49.

you wanted to wanted to go to? You knew that during the referendum

:27:50.:27:53.

campaign, that it would be the situation. You knew there wasn't a

:27:54.:28:00.

detailed plan and it would have to be negotiated. But you didn't tell

:28:01.:28:04.

us there would be a second referendum. You have only come for a

:28:05.:28:08.

replay because you lost the first time. No, what we have said is that

:28:09.:28:17.

the people have spoken, 17 million people gave a mandate to the British

:28:18.:28:21.

government to go and negotiate. That's now what has to happen. They

:28:22.:28:26.

have to negotiate in good faith and get the best possible deal. At the

:28:27.:28:31.

end of that deal, it should then be put to the people. I think there is

:28:32.:28:36.

an important national interest at play here. By their nature,

:28:37.:28:41.

referendums are fairly divisive and polarising exercises. If we are to

:28:42.:28:46.

bring the whole country back together again, I think it's

:28:47.:28:49.

important that everybody, whether you are in the 48 or 52%, can be

:28:50.:28:55.

satisfied that the country is getting what it expected to get, and

:28:56.:28:59.

for that reason, a referendum on the deal is important. You describe

:29:00.:29:05.

referendums as polarising and divisive. I remind you that the

:29:06.:29:09.

Liberal Democrats were the first National party to propose an in-out

:29:10.:29:12.

referendum in the first place. At one stage it was your party policy.

:29:13.:29:17.

When he proposed that, did you propose a second referendum on the

:29:18.:29:22.

outcome? We have always said the issue of Europe and the future of

:29:23.:29:28.

our position in the European Union was a grumbling saw in British

:29:29.:29:31.

politics and it was going to have to be addressed at some point. Ideally,

:29:32.:29:36.

probably Margaret Thatcher should have put the single European act

:29:37.:29:44.

in... My question was, when he proposed a referendum, did you

:29:45.:29:47.

propose a second referendum on the terms of the negotiation? Of course

:29:48.:29:50.

we didn't and you know that perfectly well. Why not if it's a

:29:51.:29:58.

good idea now? Let me explain, when you are presented with a particular

:29:59.:30:02.

set of circumstances and a particular set of facts, then I

:30:03.:30:05.

think it's perfectly legitimate and appropriate that a political party

:30:06.:30:09.

should respond to that. I think that's what the British people

:30:10.:30:14.

expect, and I have absolutely no shame in doing exactly that. I think

:30:15.:30:19.

it's responsible politics which ultimately will bring our position

:30:20.:30:22.

on the world stage back to where it needs to be. When will this

:30:23.:30:27.

referendum take place? Once we know the terms of the deal. Theresa May

:30:28.:30:36.

and her ministers, Boris Johnson, Liam Fox, David Davis, after the go

:30:37.:30:39.

and negotiate with the other member states, give the clearest possible

:30:40.:30:43.

detail of the future relationship with the European Union and once we

:30:44.:30:47.

know what that means, at that stage we should have the second vote. It

:30:48.:30:52.

could possibly be a couple of years down the line. This is why Theresa

:30:53.:30:57.

May at the moment keeps saying Brexit means Brexit. Frankly, as

:30:58.:31:01.

soon as she tries to give any more detail on that, does it mean in or

:31:02.:31:05.

out of the single market, does it mean hard breaks it, a free movement

:31:06.:31:12.

of labour and goods? She knows there are enormous splits in her own

:31:13.:31:17.

party. I'm asking you about the timetable because it will probably

:31:18.:31:21.

take the full two years allowed under article 50 to do what would be

:31:22.:31:27.

a complicated negotiation. At the end of that two years, we are out,

:31:28.:31:32.

that's article 50. So what's the point of your referendum? Will you

:31:33.:31:37.

ask all of Europe to delay us leaving until you've had your

:31:38.:31:38.

referendum? If you look at the terms of Article

:31:39.:31:45.

50 it's short and general in its terms. I don't think this is

:31:46.:31:52.

something that's going to be a governed entirely by the law. It's a

:31:53.:31:56.

question where ultimately the deciding and decisive factors will

:31:57.:32:00.

be political rather than legal. Excuse me to suspend Article 50...

:32:01.:32:08.

To keep... Alastair Carmichael. Yes. To suspend Article 50 beyond two

:32:09.:32:12.

years, you need all 27 members to agree, you need them all. Yes.

:32:13.:32:16.

Otherwise you can't have your referendum. Do you agree with that?

:32:17.:32:20.

Absolutely. We know that there is a time limit on Article 50, that is

:32:21.:32:23.

something that will have to be in the mind of Theresa May and her

:32:24.:32:28.

negotiating team. I'm not saying this this is some kind of panacea

:32:29.:32:33.

and I'm not saying it will be easy. What I am saying is there is an

:32:34.:32:39.

extestential crisis for the European, a project for which I

:32:40.:32:42.

remain passionate. I'm of the view it's essential for our country to be

:32:43.:32:46.

at the heart of Europe and I think that it's important for that reason

:32:47.:32:50.

that we should be clear as a country that if we are going to leave, then

:32:51.:32:56.

we should be in a position of knowing exactly the terms of which

:32:57.:33:00.

we are leaving, that's not the case at the moment. You really think the

:33:01.:33:05.

other 27 members of the European Union are going to spend hours, days

:33:06.:33:16.

and weeks of negotiating terms on exit on something that will change

:33:17.:33:23.

our mind I've never heard anybody in the European Union say they want

:33:24.:33:28.

Britain to leave. I've never encountered anything other than

:33:29.:33:32.

utter bewilderment. But they have said now that we should get on with

:33:33.:33:36.

it. If we made this part of our negotiating approach to the European

:33:37.:33:40.

Union then yes I believe they'll cooperate with us. I believe it's in

:33:41.:33:44.

the interests of the European Union that Britain should be in there as

:33:45.:33:49.

well. Have you asked anyone? Have you asked my members of the European

:33:50.:33:52.

Union if they'll go along with the second referendum idea? I'm no

:33:53.:33:55.

longer a Government minister, it's not for me to conduct the

:33:56.:34:00.

negotiations. I was just asking if you'd sounded them out? No, I've not

:34:01.:34:05.

approached it. I have no... You have no idea... You know perfectly well.

:34:06.:34:11.

It's something, we are at the start of it, it's a long negotiation

:34:12.:34:14.

process, I think it's the sort of thing the Government should be

:34:15.:34:20.

bottoming out. You just said earlier you were passionate about Europe and

:34:21.:34:25.

Europe was in an extestential crisis. Why are you passionate about

:34:26.:34:29.

something that's in an extestential crisis? I'm passionate about the

:34:30.:34:34.

idea that, since the end of the Second World War, cooperation

:34:35.:34:37.

amongst European nations, principally through the European,

:34:38.:34:41.

but also through other organisations like the Council of Europe and NATO,

:34:42.:34:45.

has kept us at peace. You know, and I think we underestimate the impact

:34:46.:34:50.

of that at our peril. Why is it in extestential crisis then? It's in

:34:51.:34:55.

extestential crisis because you see that across Europe a number of

:34:56.:35:01.

political forces on the far right especially have been emboldened by

:35:02.:35:06.

what they see as being behind the vote in Britain to leave the

:35:07.:35:10.

European Union. I think that's possibly the intended

:35:11.:35:15.

consequence. Hold on, madam Le Pen was riding high in the polls before

:35:16.:35:19.

the Brexit vote. The five star movement was riding high here before

:35:20.:35:23.

the Brexit vote. The centre right party in Greece had been wiped out

:35:24.:35:27.

before the Brexit vote. The hard right in Hungary had taken power

:35:28.:35:33.

before Brexit and the right-wing mainstream non-Government, Poland

:35:34.:35:37.

had taken power before the Brexit vote and the Sweden democrats, a

:35:38.:35:41.

hard-right party were polling third in Sweden before the Brexit vote. So

:35:42.:35:46.

I don't understand why you get the idea that... At no point. You

:35:47.:35:52.

misrepresent what I said. At no point did I say that the whole

:35:53.:35:58.

process had been Nish Jayed but it has certainly been emboldened --

:35:59.:36:03.

initiated. I don't think anybody would dispute that. Thank you very

:36:04.:36:08.

much for joining us. We'll see what Mr Farron has to say. We haven't got

:36:09.:36:14.

long to wait. The hall will no doubt be filling up and queues will be

:36:15.:36:24.

forming outside. It's filled up in fact as Tim Farron is due to take to

:36:25.:36:29.

the stage. They have been boasting they have got enough members to fill

:36:30.:36:34.

the hall. Tim Farron was elected as leader, promising a Lib Dem fight

:36:35.:36:35.

back, so is there any sign of one? at the 2015 General Election -

:36:36.:36:48.

winning just 8% of the vote. Since then the party has

:36:49.:36:53.

made little progress The party did gain 49 seats however

:36:54.:36:56.

in the English local elections - better than the Tories and Labour

:36:57.:37:00.

who both lost seats. The party may be worried however

:37:01.:37:03.

by the findings of a YouGov survey for Newsnight

:37:04.:37:06.

to be broadcast tonight. It found seven out of 10 former

:37:07.:37:07.

Lib Dem voters are uncertain what the party stands for,

:37:08.:37:10.

with 32% saying they 65% of British adults have no

:37:11.:37:12.

opinion on the question of whether he's doing well

:37:13.:37:16.

or badly as Leader. We are joined by our guest Joe who's

:37:17.:37:31.

done the poll with Newsnight. What is your overall take away? There's

:37:32.:37:34.

good news and bad news. Three quarters of those people who voted

:37:35.:37:40.

for the Lib Dems in 2010 but didn't in 2015 don't support them now say

:37:41.:37:43.

they would vote for the Lib Dems potentially at some stage in the

:37:44.:37:46.

future and yes, we have seen in local by-elections that things have

:37:47.:37:49.

improved, the membership numbers are up. That's all good news, but there

:37:50.:37:56.

is bad news as well. Really people are uncertain, it doesn't matter

:37:57.:37:58.

whether we are talking about the general public or Lib Dem

:37:59.:38:00.

supporters, people are uncertain what they stand for or what they

:38:01.:38:04.

should stand for indeed. Should they be an opposition to Government,

:38:05.:38:09.

campaigning to stay in the EU, playing a role in Government? Among

:38:10.:38:12.

their supporters, there is no real decision either way on that. If you

:38:13.:38:16.

want to stage this fightback, you need to turn in the era of social

:38:17.:38:21.

media to the leader and two thirds of the public don't know when he's

:38:22.:38:25.

doing a good or bad job, including half of Lib Dem voters and even a

:38:26.:38:30.

third of Lib Dem supporters, they don't know whether he's doing a good

:38:31.:38:34.

or bad job. It doesn't help if you don't have a big Parliamentary base,

:38:35.:38:37.

you might not get the air time that you would get in a bigger party. In

:38:38.:38:40.

terms of people don't know what they stand for, is this message about a

:38:41.:38:44.

second referendum on the Brexit not cutting through? It doesn't appear

:38:45.:38:48.

to be at the moment. Generally speaking, it falls along the lines

:38:49.:38:52.

of the vote, but even a third of people who voted to remain say there

:38:53.:38:56.

shouldn't be a second referendum so there is not an overwhelming desire

:38:57.:39:00.

and, among Lib Dem voters, two thirds voted to stay, but a third

:39:01.:39:07.

voted to leave. It's not the case that overoverwhelmingly they were...

:39:08.:39:12.

Listening to that interview, is that the right way to go for the Lib

:39:13.:39:16.

Dems, to tie themselves and try to define themselves of a part of the

:39:17.:39:23.

48% who voted to remain in the EU? It's distinctive and appeals in

:39:24.:39:26.

particular to the huge number of Labour voters who voted to remain

:39:27.:39:31.

and who aren't really represented by their current leader who knows how

:39:32.:39:37.

he voted. I think as Andrew's interview with Alastair showed, it's

:39:38.:39:41.

a messy, complicated policy, but of course the status quo is messy and

:39:42.:39:45.

complicated too because we have a Government trying to negotiate with

:39:46.:39:47.

really no mandate about what it is that they are supposed to get except

:39:48.:39:51.

that it must be out. But even on that, it's not getting any traction

:39:52.:39:55.

in the polls, so is it still a policy that they should be following

:39:56.:39:59.

if it's not gaining any track sthun? I think it takes time for any

:40:00.:40:02.

message to get through. It's a fairly clear one though? But most

:40:03.:40:06.

people don't pay attention to politics most of the time and so you

:40:07.:40:10.

have to actually just keep saying the same thing a lot until people

:40:11.:40:15.

listen. Why would the Europeans, in the two years of negotiations, give

:40:16.:40:20.

us Anything if they knew there was

:40:21.:40:23.

going to be a referendum? Tactically if you want us to remain in, that

:40:24.:40:27.

might be helpful, they might be offering such a terrible deal that

:40:28.:40:31.

when compared with staying in it would feel better. If you if they

:40:32.:40:38.

made it seem like coming out would have been palatable, the UN's tactic

:40:39.:40:43.

would surely be, no, this is going to be miserable, you can't have

:40:44.:40:47.

access to the single market, we insist on free movement, why would

:40:48.:40:51.

they give us anything if they knew another vote was come something?

:40:52.:40:57.

Gull if you want us to remain. But you are negotiating a deal to leave,

:40:58.:41:01.

not to remain? The Government is, but of course if Tim Farron was in

:41:02.:41:07.

charge he'd be voting to stay. On the same terms as now. The problem

:41:08.:41:11.

it seems on this issue is that if there was a second referendum there

:41:12.:41:14.

would be more uncertainty and from your polling people don't want that?

:41:15.:41:17.

Not at the moment but there is no alternative options set out at the

:41:18.:41:21.

moment so it's a potential area for leadership but you can't lead if

:41:22.:41:23.

no-one knows what you stand for. So, Tim Farron will get to his feet

:41:24.:41:27.

in just a few minutes now. Before he makes that

:41:28.:41:30.

big conference speech, let's just remind ourselves

:41:31.:41:32.

of what the Lib Dem leader has been We paid a heavy price

:41:33.:41:35.

for our time in government, The Lib Dem leader has just been to

:41:36.:41:39.

see the migrant crisis first-hand. Tim Farron has got his first

:41:40.:41:51.

question to the Prime Minister Will he agree with the Save

:41:52.:41:55.

the Children plea that we take as a country 3000 vulnerable

:41:56.:42:02.

unaccompanied children in Europe, some of whom are

:42:03.:42:04.

as young as six? He may have lied to have influenced

:42:05.:42:07.

the election, but today Alistair Carmichael was cleared

:42:08.:42:19.

of breaking the law. However irritating

:42:20.:42:23.

the honourable gentleman... LAUGHTER ..May be to government

:42:24.:42:30.

backbenchers, he has I am fantastically grateful to you,

:42:31.:42:36.

Mr Speaker. # Jump to the beat

:42:37.:42:45.

of the party line... The decision taken in 1975 by this

:42:46.:42:52.

country to join the Common I am, frankly, utterly

:42:53.:43:02.

gutted and heartbroken. The way my teacher told me

:43:03.:43:07.

to do it, is imagine We were talking about the polls, the

:43:08.:43:43.

Lib Dems trying to redefine themselves post-re-election. What

:43:44.:43:47.

are the views about their legacy, if anything, in Government? The general

:43:48.:43:52.

public and among their lost supporters, there's really no

:43:53.:43:55.

overwhelming view one way or the other about whether it was good, bad

:43:56.:43:57.

or whether they had influence or not. 85% of the current supporters

:43:58.:44:01.

believe that actually they were good and they did have a positive

:44:02.:44:04.

influence on Government so it's quite a difference between the old

:44:05.:44:09.

and the new. Right, so the old supporters of the Liberal Democrats

:44:10.:44:11.

thought they didn't make much difference at all, Polly, that must

:44:12.:44:17.

be a bit of a blow to those left? It is and I think it's perfectly

:44:18.:44:20.

obvious that during the years in coalition we didn't effectively tell

:44:21.:44:24.

the story about the impact we were having and the problem is that now

:44:25.:44:28.

the Liberal Democrats have left Government and the Conservative

:44:29.:44:31.

Party did then lurch off to the right and take us out of Europe and

:44:32.:44:34.

do all sorts of disastrous things and basically mess up the country,

:44:35.:44:39.

we are too small to be heard saying "I told you so", plus of course I

:44:40.:44:44.

told you so has never been the most effective political campaign state.

:44:45.:44:48.

Straight over to Brighton. There is Mr Farron taking to the stage. He's

:44:49.:44:53.

only been leader for one year. This is his second address at a

:44:54.:44:57.

conference and he'll be hoping to reassure them and cut through to the

:44:58.:45:01.

wider public and give himself a bigger profile with voters in

:45:02.:45:03.

January. He begins.

:45:04.:45:08.

Thank you very much. You might have worked this out for yourselves, but

:45:09.:45:15.

I'm now the longest serving leader of a UK wide but vertical party! I

:45:16.:45:22.

have seen off all the heavyweights, Cameron, Farage, Natalie Bennett!

:45:23.:45:33.

Roy Hodgson. Mel and Sue. Liberal Democrats are good at lots of

:45:34.:45:38.

things. The thing that we are best that is con founding expectations.

:45:39.:45:47.

We were expected to shy away from taking power, but we stepped up and

:45:48.:45:52.

we made a difference. We were expected to disappear after the 20

:45:53.:45:57.

15th election but we bounced back and are almost twice the size we

:45:58.:45:58.

were then. I have been doing a bit of

:45:59.:46:15.

confounding expectations myself. You see, I am a white, nor

:46:16.:46:25.

working-class, middle-aged bloke. According to polling experts, I

:46:26.:46:31.

should have voted to leave. May I assure you that I didn't. But mates

:46:32.:46:36.

of mine did, people in my family did. I spent most of my adult life,

:46:37.:46:44.

working and raising a family and West Midlands. I am massively proud

:46:45.:46:55.

-- in Westmorland. But I was born a few miles south in Preston. I was

:46:56.:46:59.

raised in a family with not much money around, at a time when it

:47:00.:47:02.

seemed to me the Thatcher government was determined to put every adult I

:47:03.:47:07.

knew out of work and on the scrapheap. But our people and our

:47:08.:47:12.

community were not for breaking. The great city of Preston is a

:47:13.:47:16.

no-nonsense place, proud of its history and ambitious about its

:47:17.:47:20.

future. It's the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution, it is the

:47:21.:47:25.

place where Cromwell won the most important battle in the English

:47:26.:47:28.

Civil War, the complacent establishment stuffed by the

:47:29.:47:33.

outsiders. And that links rather neatly, I'm afraid, to the

:47:34.:47:38.

referendum. Preston voted 53% to leave. Some places in Lancashire two

:47:39.:47:45.

thirds of people voted out. I respect those people. If you forgive

:47:46.:47:49.

me, they are my people. If they will forgive me, I'm still utterly

:47:50.:47:53.

convinced Britain should remain in Europe. APPLAUSE

:47:54.:48:04.

I was convinced on the 23rd of June. I am today. I will continue to be.

:48:05.:48:10.

Not because I'm some starry eyed pro-European with Ode to Joy as my

:48:11.:48:18.

ring tone. We all know what I have is my ring tone. But I'm a patriot.

:48:19.:48:24.

We believe it's in our national interest to be in, for more jobs,

:48:25.:48:29.

lower prices, stop climate change, catch terrorism, to stand tall and

:48:30.:48:37.

to matter, and because I believe that Britain is an open, tolerant

:48:38.:48:42.

country, the opposite of the bleak vision of Nigel Farage and Boris

:48:43.:48:53.

Johnson. APPLAUSE Britain did not become Great Britain

:48:54.:48:58.

on fear, isolation and division, and there is no country called Little

:48:59.:49:03.

Britain. There is nothing so dangerous and narrow as nationalism

:49:04.:49:10.

and cheap identity politics. But there is nothing wrong with

:49:11.:49:19.

identity. I am very proud of mine. I'm a Lancastrian, a northerner, ie

:49:20.:49:23.

in English, British, I am European, all of those things. None of them

:49:24.:49:29.

contradict each other, and no campaign of lies and fear will rob

:49:30.:49:31.

me of who I am. But we lost. We lost, didn't we? I

:49:32.:49:50.

was born and raised in Preston, but the football mad half of my family

:49:51.:49:54.

is from Blackburn, so I make Rovers fan. Defeat and disappointment is in

:49:55.:50:03.

my blood! Those who say I'm a bad loser are quite wrong. I'm a great

:50:04.:50:09.

loser, I've had loads of practice. But the referendum result to me was

:50:10.:50:15.

like a bereavement. I was devastated, I am devastated. We

:50:16.:50:18.

Liberal Democrats worked harder than anyone else in that campaign. We put

:50:19.:50:25.

blood, sweat and tears into it. We put the positive case for Europe

:50:26.:50:30.

while Cameron and Osborne churned out dry statistics, fear mongering

:50:31.:50:33.

and shallow platitudes. It's easy to say after such a now world

:50:34.:50:38.

referendum result that we are a divided and true. -- a narrow

:50:39.:50:42.

referendum result. In ways we are, but a split between believers and

:50:43.:50:49.

Remainers is a manifestation of that. Written today, has too much

:50:50.:50:56.

wealth concentrated in some parts of the country and too little in

:50:57.:51:00.

others. -- Britain today. A few weeks after the referendum I went

:51:01.:51:05.

back to Preston and we booked Saint Wilfrid's Church Hall of the Fisher

:51:06.:51:11.

gate for a public meeting. When my office booked the place they didn't

:51:12.:51:14.

know it meant something quite deeply to me personally. The last time I

:51:15.:51:20.

was in that church, I was therefore my grandmother's funeral ten years

:51:21.:51:23.

ago. The last time I walked out of it was as a pallbearer. I was in a

:51:24.:51:30.

reflective mood when I began the meeting. There were perhaps 70 or 80

:51:31.:51:35.

people there. Most of them had voted to leave. Most of them pretty much

:51:36.:51:41.

fitted my demographic. They weren't mostly diehards. I honestly reckon

:51:42.:51:45.

about three quarters of them could have been persuaded to vote for

:51:46.:51:49.

remain up until two or three weeks out. One guy said that the clincher

:51:50.:51:53.

for him was George Osborne's punishment budget. When he said

:51:54.:51:59.

that, pretty much the whole room chipped in and agreed. There was

:52:00.:52:02.

near universal acknowledgement that this had been a pivotal moment. Here

:52:03.:52:07.

was this guy, George Osborne, who they didn't really like, and who

:52:08.:52:12.

they felt didn't really like them, and he appeared on the telly and

:52:13.:52:15.

bullied them into doing something they weren't sure they wanted to do

:52:16.:52:21.

and they reacted. If you base your political strategy on divide and

:52:22.:52:25.

rule, don't be surprised if the people you have divided decides to

:52:26.:52:34.

give you a kicking. So I don't blame the people in that church hall for

:52:35.:52:39.

their anger. Actually, I share it. I am angry, and I'm angry at the

:52:40.:52:43.

calculating forces of darkness who care nothing for the working people

:52:44.:52:47.

of this country, nothing for our NHS, nothing for those who struggle

:52:48.:52:52.

to get by, and exploited that anger to win an exit from Europe that will

:52:53.:52:58.

hurt the poorest the hardest. APPLAUSE

:52:59.:53:06.

The people in that church hall in Preston had voted differently to me,

:53:07.:53:10.

but I thought, we are on the same side here. We see a London centric,

:53:11.:53:15.

no, Westminster and Whitehall centric approach and the media

:53:16.:53:23.

treating the provinces as alien places. Those people in Preston and

:53:24.:53:29.

Sunderland see the divide between win and lose. When the country is

:53:30.:53:32.

booming they do not see the benefit and when the country is declining

:53:33.:53:36.

they are the first hit. At the meeting they talked about low wages,

:53:37.:53:41.

poor housing, strained hospitals and schools. Their problems were not

:53:42.:53:46.

caused by the European Union. They were caused by powerful people who

:53:47.:53:50.

took them for granted. By politicians who have spent decades

:53:51.:53:53.

chasing cheap headlines and short-term success for their own

:53:54.:53:57.

political careers and never acting in a long-term interests of the

:53:58.:54:07.

whole country. APPLAUSE So, those people in that room, like

:54:08.:54:13.

millions of others, wanted, quite understandably, to give the powerful

:54:14.:54:18.

a kicking, so they did. I wanted Britain to remain in the European

:54:19.:54:22.

Union and I still do, but we have got to listen. To learn and

:54:23.:54:27.

understand why millions of people voted to leave. We can't just tell

:54:28.:54:31.

them they are wrong and stick our fingers in our ears. I wanted two

:54:32.:54:35.

things, I want to persuade those who voted leave that we understand and

:54:36.:54:43.

respect their reasons and we are determined to take head-on the

:54:44.:54:45.

things about today's Britain that have left so many people feeling

:54:46.:54:47.

ignored, and I want to give them their say over what comes next.

:54:48.:54:59.

APPLAUSE So, Theresa May says Brexit means

:55:00.:55:07.

Brexit. Well, thanks for clearing that up. Absolute genius. Nearly

:55:08.:55:14.

three months since the referendum and we have a government with new

:55:15.:55:19.

departments, new titles, a new Prime Minister, but no plan, no vision. No

:55:20.:55:26.

clue, and no leadership. Theresa May did so little in the remain

:55:27.:55:30.

campaign, that she actually made it look like Jeremy Corbyn pulled a

:55:31.:55:40.

shift. And today, the absence of leadership from the Prime Minister

:55:41.:55:44.

is astonishing. The absence of clarity as to what will happen to

:55:45.:55:48.

our country is a disgrace. Three months on, it's not good enough to

:55:49.:55:52.

have brainstorming sessions at Chequers while investment and jobs

:55:53.:55:57.

steadily lead away. While our standing and relevance in the world

:55:58.:56:01.

diminishes in direct proportion to the number of foreign visits by

:56:02.:56:05.

Boris Johnson. While British industry is crying out for

:56:06.:56:09.

direction, for certainty, for any idea of what lies ahead, make no

:56:10.:56:13.

mistake, the Conservative Party has now lost the right to call itself

:56:14.:56:18.

the party of business. It has lost the right to call itself the party

:56:19.:56:20.

of the free market. APPLAUSE The Conservative Party no longer

:56:21.:56:37.

supports business, no longer understands the need for calm,

:56:38.:56:42.

economic pragmatism, but instead pursues the Nationalists,

:56:43.:56:44.

protectionist fantasies of the Brexit fundamentalists who have won

:56:45.:56:49.

the day. Our message to any business in this country large or small is

:56:50.:56:54.

this. If you are backing today's Conservative Party, you are funding

:56:55.:57:02.

your own funeral. APPLAUSE There is now only one party that

:57:03.:57:10.

believes in British business, large and small, that believes in

:57:11.:57:14.

entrepreneurship and innovation, and that is the Liberal Democrats. We

:57:15.:57:18.

are the free market, free trade, pro-business party now. APPLAUSE

:57:19.:57:32.

So, Theresa May, please tell us what Brexit really means. You've had

:57:33.:57:37.

three months. You are the Prime Minister, stop dithering. What is

:57:38.:57:46.

your plan? The Liberal Democrats have a plan. We know what we want,

:57:47.:57:52.

and we know where we want to take our country. When Theresa May does

:57:53.:57:56.

agree a deal with the European Union, we want the people to decide.

:57:57.:58:03.

Not a rerun of the referendum, not a second referendum, but a referendum

:58:04.:58:07.

on the terms of the as yet unknown Brexit deal. And if the Tories say,

:58:08.:58:12.

we've had enough referendums, I would say, you started it! APPLAUSE

:58:13.:58:23.

We had a democratic vote in June. We can't start this process with

:58:24.:58:28.

democracy and end it with a stitch up. If we trusted the people to vote

:58:29.:58:32.

for departure, then we must trust the people to vote for the

:58:33.:58:33.

destination. Millions of people have not been

:58:34.:58:52.

well served by generations of politicians who put their own

:58:53.:58:56.

short-term political needs before the long-term interests of the

:58:57.:59:00.

people they were supposed to be serving, and politics is about

:59:01.:59:06.

service. David Cameron's handling of our relationship with Europe is a

:59:07.:59:11.

masterclass in selfish, shallow short termism, party before country

:59:12.:59:16.

at every turn. The Conservative Party risked our country's very

:59:17.:59:20.

future and the life chances of millions of young people, all in a

:59:21.:59:24.

failed attempt to unite their fractured party. David Cameron

:59:25.:59:30.

risked our future and he lost. And while he waltzes off to riches and

:59:31.:59:35.

retirement, our country is plunged into economic uncertainty,

:59:36.:59:38.

insecurity and irrelevance on the world stage. The Tories took the

:59:39.:59:42.

gamble but Britain will pay the price, what an absolute disgrace!

:59:43.:59:51.

But their short termism does not stop with Brexit. Look at their

:59:52.:00:03.

handling of the refugee crisis. The biggest crisis facing our continent

:00:04.:00:07.

since the Second World War. They did nothing to help right until the

:00:08.:00:14.

point that they thought it was in their short-term interest to act.

:00:15.:00:20.

When the photograph of the body of three-year-old Alan Kurdi facedown

:00:21.:00:25.

in the sand was on the front page of every newspaper. The people were

:00:26.:00:29.

shocked and heartbroken and they demanded action. And the Tories did

:00:30.:00:34.

bare minimum. But since then, the front pages have moved on and they

:00:35.:00:40.

have barely lifted a finger. There are some on the centre-left who are

:00:41.:00:45.

squeamish about patriotism. But not me. I am proud of my country, and I

:00:46.:00:50.

hate it when my country makes me ashamed. When I was on the island of

:00:51.:00:56.

Lesbos last year after we had helped to land a flimsy boat of desperate

:00:57.:01:01.

refugees, I was handing out bottles of fresh water alongside other

:01:02.:01:05.

volunteers. A few yards away was an aid worker from New Zealand who knew

:01:06.:01:09.

I was a British politician. And she looked at me and she shouted, "Stop

:01:10.:01:15.

handing out bottles of water and take some effing refugees because

:01:16.:01:25.

that is how Britain is seen as not pulling its weight." That might not

:01:26.:01:29.

bother some people, but it bothers me. Because I am proud of who we

:01:30.:01:32.

are. APPLAUSE.

:01:33.:01:44.

I am proud of Britain. We are always a sanctuary for the desperate, the

:01:45.:01:48.

abused and persecuted and I will not stand by and watch my country become

:01:49.:01:54.

smaller, meaner and selfish. That is not Britain, we are better than

:01:55.:01:56.

that. APPLAUSE.

:01:57.:02:04.

And a year on, a year on, the crisis is worse. It is not better. Not that

:02:05.:02:09.

you would ever know it. We don't see those desperate families in the

:02:10.:02:13.

media every day now. We aren't confronted so often with the

:02:14.:02:16.

knowledge that they are just like us and that they need our help. Much to

:02:17.:02:22.

the Government's delight, compassion fatigue's set in, the news has moved

:02:23.:02:26.

on. We have had Brexit, a new Prime Minister, a Labour Leadership

:02:27.:02:29.

contest and none of that maybes a blind bit of difference to a

:02:30.:02:34.

nine-year-old kid stuck alone and hungry and cold in a camp in

:02:35.:02:38.

northern Greece or to the family this morning fleeing their burning

:02:39.:02:41.

camp. The Government wants us to forget this crisis, it's too

:02:42.:02:46.

difficult to solve, too risky to take the lead, but we have not

:02:47.:02:49.

forgotten, we'll not forget. Those children could be our children, how

:02:50.:02:53.

dare the Government abandon them! APPLAUSE.

:02:54.:03:23.

But short-termism in politics goes back a lot further than just this

:03:24.:03:28.

Government. You've got to look at the way the Conservatives in the 80s

:03:29.:03:34.

and Labour in the 90s treated the banks, sucking up, deregulating,

:03:35.:03:37.

encouraging a culture of risk and greed. Instead of building an

:03:38.:03:40.

economy that served the long-term needs of the whole country, they put

:03:41.:03:44.

all their eggs in one basket - the banks. And for a while, things were

:03:45.:03:49.

good for Britain, Britain boomed. But they didn't invest in modern

:03:50.:03:52.

infrastructure that could benefit the North of England or Scotland or

:03:53.:03:56.

Wales or the Midlands or the south-west. They didn't invest in

:03:57.:04:00.

the skills the next generation would need. They didn't invest in our

:04:01.:04:05.

manufacturing base. All they did was allow the banks to take bigger and

:04:06.:04:09.

bigger risks, build up bigger and bigger lights. And when the banks

:04:10.:04:15.

failed, we were all left paying the price in lower wages and less jobs,

:04:16.:04:21.

cuts in Public Services. Short-term thinking, long-term consequences.

:04:22.:04:25.

And nowhere is this danger posed more by short-term thinking greater

:04:26.:04:28.

than with the future of our National Health Service.

:04:29.:04:32.

Can you remember a time when there were not reports on the news almost

:04:33.:04:35.

daily saying the National Health Service was in crisis? For years,

:04:36.:04:40.

politicians have chosen to paper over the cracks rather than come

:04:41.:04:42.

clean about what it will really take, what it will really cost, not

:04:43.:04:47.

just the keep the NHS afloat, but to give people the care and the

:04:48.:04:52.

treatment that they deserve and that means finally bringing the NHS and

:04:53.:04:56.

social care together. APPLAUSE.

:04:57.:05:07.

In my grandpa's journey through Alzheimer's, he had good care in the

:05:08.:05:10.

home he spent his last couple of years in. But when he first became

:05:11.:05:15.

ill, after the death of my grandma, the place he was put in was

:05:16.:05:22.

despicable. Lonely, unclean, uncaring. I can still smell it now.

:05:23.:05:29.

It's a few years back, but as I fought to get him out of that place

:05:30.:05:32.

and into somewhere better, it occurred to me that this was a

:05:33.:05:36.

standard experience for too many people and their loved ones. Maybe

:05:37.:05:39.

some people can shrug and accept this, but I can't. I've seen enough

:05:40.:05:44.

terrible old people's homes and enough people who've had to wait for

:05:45.:05:47.

ever for treatment, particularly people who don't have someone to

:05:48.:05:52.

fight their corner. It's not civilised to let people splip

:05:53.:05:55.

through the net or to watch the people who go out of their way to

:05:56.:05:59.

make their lives easier when everything else is making their

:06:00.:06:03.

lives harder. It's not civilised and it's not good enough. I worry about

:06:04.:06:09.

this, not just for the NHS in general, but if I'm honest, for

:06:10.:06:15.

myself and for my family. We are, if we are lucky, going to grow old. We

:06:16.:06:22.

know no matter what happens we'll be cared for with dignity and respect.

:06:23.:06:30.

William Beverage writen the blueprint saying that when people

:06:31.:06:33.

are living to the ages they are today, there is no doubt he would

:06:34.:06:36.

have proposed a national health and care service. He would have been

:06:37.:06:42.

appalled about the child who has to look at their disabled parent or the

:06:43.:06:45.

thousands of women across the country who're unable to work

:06:46.:06:49.

because they are disproportionately care-gives. Let's today decide to do

:06:50.:06:55.

what Beverage would do, let's create that national health and care

:06:56.:06:56.

service. APPLAUSE.

:06:57.:07:10.

And let's stop being complacent about our NHS. Of course, we have a

:07:11.:07:15.

brilliant NHS, best staff in the world, free care at the point of

:07:16.:07:19.

access, but we are spending far less on it every year than we need to. Of

:07:20.:07:26.

the 15 original EU countries, including Spain, Greece and

:07:27.:07:30.

Portugal, we rank behind them in 13th place when it comes to health

:07:31.:07:35.

spending. It would take tens of billions of pounds a year just to

:07:36.:07:39.

bring ourselves up to their average. It's not good enough. So we need to

:07:40.:07:44.

face the truth. The hard truth. That the NHS needs more money, a lot more

:07:45.:07:49.

money, not just to stop it lurching from crisis to crisis, but so that

:07:50.:07:53.

it can meet the needs and challenges it will face in the years ahead, so

:07:54.:07:57.

that it can be the service we all need for the long-term.

:07:58.:07:58.

APPLAUSE. Now, that means having the most

:07:59.:08:09.

frank and honest conversation about the NHS that the country has ever

:08:10.:08:15.

had, what Beverage did for the 20th century we must do for the 21st

:08:16.:08:18.

century. APPLAUSE.

:08:19.:08:26.

And in Norman Lamb, we have THE politician who is most trusted and

:08:27.:08:30.

respected by the health profession and deservedly so.

:08:31.:08:32.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. And, Norman and I are clear, we are

:08:33.:08:44.

not going to joining the ranks of those politicians who're too scared

:08:45.:08:48.

of losing votes to face up to what really needs to be done. We will go

:08:49.:08:53.

to the British people with the results of our Beverage Commission

:08:54.:08:57.

and we'll offer a new deal for health and social care, honest about

:08:58.:09:01.

the cost, bold about the solution and if the only way to fund a Health

:09:02.:09:06.

Service that meets the needs of everyone is to raise taxes, Liberal

:09:07.:09:11.

Democrats will raise taxes. APPLAUSE.

:09:12.:09:24.

Short-term thinking is the scourge of our education system too.

:09:25.:09:32.

Governments designed an education system, especially at primary school

:09:33.:09:36.

level that is focussed, not on developing young people for further

:09:37.:09:40.

life or study, but on getting them through the wrong kinds of tests.

:09:41.:09:44.

It's not about whether kids can solve problems or converse in other

:09:45.:09:49.

languages or even their own, it's about statistics, measurements,

:09:50.:09:54.

league tables, instead of building an education system we have built a

:09:55.:09:59.

quality assurance industry. It's no wonder so many teachers are

:10:00.:10:03.

frustrateded, no wonder so many leave the profession, parents

:10:04.:10:07.

deserve to know that their child's teacher is focussed on teaching.

:10:08.:10:12.

Teachers are professionally undervalued, driven towards meeting

:10:13.:10:16.

targets, instead of developing young minds and, as ever, it's the poorest

:10:17.:10:22.

kids who suffer the most. APPLAUSE.

:10:23.:10:29.

So in the last Government, we introduced a policy, a long-term

:10:30.:10:32.

policy to try and help the poorest kids keep up with their better off

:10:33.:10:38.

class mates, the pupil premium. This year, this school year, more than

:10:39.:10:41.

two million children will benefit from that Liberal Democrat policy

:10:42.:10:45.

and I am so proud. APPLAUSE.

:10:46.:10:51.

I am so proud of that and I am so proud of Kirsty Williams who's

:10:52.:10:55.

making a real difference every day to the lives of children across

:10:56.:10:59.

Wales, the pupil premium is not safe in Tory hands but it's safe in

:11:00.:11:03.

Kirsty's. What's more, she has doubled it. That is what happens

:11:04.:11:06.

when you get into power. But we need to do so very much more.

:11:07.:11:21.

I talk a lot about opportunity, about breaking down the barriers

:11:22.:11:25.

that hold people back and nowhere is that more important than in

:11:26.:11:28.

education. I want our schools to be places where our teachers have the

:11:29.:11:33.

freedom to use their skill and their knowledge to open young minds, not

:11:34.:11:37.

just train them to pass tests. I want them to be places where

:11:38.:11:42.

children are inspired to learn, not stressed out by those tests. So I

:11:43.:11:46.

want to end the current system of SATs in primary schools that are a

:11:47.:11:51.

distraction from the real education, the professional teachers want to

:11:52.:11:55.

give their children, that weigh heavily on children as young as six

:11:56.:12:00.

and add nothing to the breadth of their learning. What are we doing

:12:01.:12:05.

wasting our children's education and teacher's talents on ticking the

:12:06.:12:11.

boxes. What are we doing in 2016? Threatening to relegate 80% of our

:12:12.:12:14.

children to education Second Division by returning to the

:12:15.:12:16.

11-plus. APPLAUSE.

:12:17.:12:26.

I mean, every child wants to send their kids to a good school, every

:12:27.:12:34.

parent wants their kid... You know what I mean. Every child wants their

:12:35.:12:39.

parent to be sent to school - that's probably right in my case. But every

:12:40.:12:44.

parent thinks the same too. But, you know, selective schools are not the

:12:45.:12:47.

answer for either of us. We need better schools for all our children,

:12:48.:12:53.

not just those who can pass an exam at the age of 11. We can't just

:12:54.:12:58.

leave children behind. Over the last 40 years, millions of children, me

:12:59.:13:04.

included back in the day, have been liberated by comprehensive education

:13:05.:13:07.

APPLAUSE. APPLAUSE.

:13:08.:13:13.

Those kids probably including me, would have been Consigned to second

:13:14.:13:17.

class status in a secondary modern and it's important for us to

:13:18.:13:22.

remember who made that happen. It was Shirley Williams. It was Shirley

:13:23.:13:31.

Williams. Let's be clear, let's be very clear. For us, defending

:13:32.:13:35.

education for all is not just about being liberal, it's person. Shirley,

:13:36.:13:40.

we will defend your legacy. APPLAUSE.

:13:41.:13:47.

I mean, assessment is vital, exams are actually important, but let's

:13:48.:13:53.

have assessment that leads to a love of learning and a breadth of

:13:54.:13:57.

learning that is relevant to what children will need next at school

:13:58.:14:02.

and in their future as adults. There is nothing more long-term than the

:14:03.:14:06.

education of a child that stays with them for their entire life. So let's

:14:07.:14:12.

end the box-ticking, let's teach our children and let's trust our

:14:13.:14:14.

teachers. APPLAUSE.

:14:15.:14:26.

Now, one thing you cannot accuse Jeremy Corbyn of is short-term

:14:27.:14:37.

thinking. His lot have waited over 100 years for this. Finally they

:14:38.:14:40.

have taken over the Labour Party and, like all good Marxists, they

:14:41.:14:44.

have seized the means of production, they have even seized the nurseries

:14:45.:14:51.

too. Opening branches of Momentum kids, otherwise known as child

:14:52.:15:01.

labour. Or my particular favourite, Tiny Trots.

:15:02.:15:05.

I mean, we shouldn't laugh. The Liberal Democrats have never had any

:15:06.:15:11.

trouble with entryists, unless you include the Quakers. My problem with

:15:12.:15:15.

Jeremy Corbyn is nothing personal. After all, I used to see him quite a

:15:16.:15:20.

lot in the Blair years, he was always in the lobby.

:15:21.:15:24.

LAUGHTER. But my problem with core someone

:15:25.:15:28.

that for him, holding the Government to account is not a priority.

:15:29.:15:33.

Winning elections is a distraction, unless it's his own leadership

:15:34.:15:38.

election. It's baffling to see. The Labour Party argue about whether or

:15:39.:15:42.

not they could even be trying to win the election. Can you imagine that?

:15:43.:15:46.

The Liberals and Liberal Democrats spent decades out of power and then,

:15:47.:15:51.

when the opportunity finally came, it incredibly difficult

:15:52.:15:53.

circumstances, when the easiest thing in the world would have been

:15:54.:15:58.

to walk away, we chose to take power because we knew the point of

:15:59.:16:02.

politics is to put principles into action, to get things done, not just

:16:03.:16:07.

to feel good, but to do good. So we took power and we got crushed so you

:16:08.:16:14.

could forgive us for thinking twice about whether power is really worth

:16:15.:16:15.

it. But of course it's worth it. Having

:16:16.:16:25.

fine principles but no power is just turning your back some people who

:16:26.:16:29.

need you the most, and letting someone else win the day. We have

:16:30.:16:35.

huge crises in Britain today, in our NHS, the economy, in our

:16:36.:16:39.

relationship with the rest of the world, we have a Tory government to

:16:40.:16:43.

got less than a of the electorate supporting them at the last

:16:44.:16:48.

election, a Prime Minister that nobody has elected plunging our

:16:49.:16:51.

country into chaos. They spent a year going after the working poor,

:16:52.:16:57.

refugees and junior doctors. And the Labour Party have been going for

:16:58.:17:00.

each other. Instead of standing up to the Conservatives they were

:17:01.:17:05.

sitting on the floor of half empty Virgin Trains. Maybe Jeremy Corbyn

:17:06.:17:08.

thinks there are more important things than winning elections but

:17:09.:17:11.

for millions of people desperate for an affordable home, a fair wage and

:17:12.:17:16.

properly funded NHS, they can't wait. How dare the official

:17:17.:17:29.

opposition abandon them. APPLAUSE Which ever party you support it at

:17:30.:17:35.

the last election, we all know that Britain needs a decent and united

:17:36.:17:40.

opposition. So if Corbyn's Labour has left the stage, then we will

:17:41.:17:44.

take the stage. People say to me this is a great opportunity for the

:17:45.:17:48.

Liberal Democrats, but this is more than opportunity, its duty. Britain

:17:49.:17:53.

needs a strong opposition and the Liberal Democrats will be that

:17:54.:18:06.

strong opposition. APPLAUSE Do you ever listened to these Labour

:18:07.:18:11.

people arguing among themselves, throwing around the word Blairite as

:18:12.:18:16.

if it's the most offensive insult. I hear some Carr momentum folk

:18:17.:18:22.

referring to Gordon Brown as a Blairite! I'm pretty sure he's a

:18:23.:18:37.

brown -- Brownite. I am not a Blairite. I was very proud to march

:18:38.:18:43.

against his illegal invasion of Iraq, I was incredibly proud to

:18:44.:18:48.

stand with Charles Kennedy, and I was incredibly proud this summer

:18:49.:18:52.

when Charles' brave stance was vindicated in a Chilcot Report. I

:18:53.:18:59.

was all so proud to be in the party that stood up against his

:19:00.:19:04.

government's attempts to stamp on our civil liberties, from compulsory

:19:05.:19:08.

ID cards, to 90 days detention without charge. And I was proud of

:19:09.:19:14.

Vince Cable as he called out Tony Blair's government 's deregulation

:19:15.:19:17.

of the banks. But there is more to Tony Blair's legacy than that. I

:19:18.:19:25.

kind of see Tony Blair the way I see the Stone Roses. I preferred the

:19:26.:19:34.

early work. Tony Blair's government gave us the national minimum wage.

:19:35.:19:40.

It gave us working tax credits. It gave us NHS investment and a massive

:19:41.:19:44.

school building programme. I disagreed with him a lot, but I will

:19:45.:19:49.

not criticise him for those things. I admire him for those things. And I

:19:50.:19:54.

respect him for believing that the point of being in politics is to get

:19:55.:19:58.

stuff done. And you can only get stuff done if you win, otherwise you

:19:59.:20:02.

are letting your opponent get stuff done instead. The crowd in Corbyn's

:20:03.:20:09.

ranks like to talk in terms of loyalty and betrayal, but there is

:20:10.:20:13.

no surer way to betray the people you represent and to let your

:20:14.:20:15.

opponents win. So I believe in working across party

:20:16.:20:31.

lines. I am prepared to work with people of all parties and none if it

:20:32.:20:38.

will make people's lives better. But I couldn't work with Jeremy Corbyn,

:20:39.:20:41.

because Jeremy Corbyn would never work with me. I wanted to work with

:20:42.:20:45.

him during the referendum campaign, but he would not share a platform.

:20:46.:20:50.

Splendid isolation was more important to him than joining the

:20:51.:20:55.

fight to save our country. Labour is having its leadership contest in a

:20:56.:20:59.

few days' time. Maybe Jeremy Corbyn will not be their leader, in which

:21:00.:21:05.

case it will be Owen Smith. I don't know Owen Smith all that well. But

:21:06.:21:11.

unlike Jeremy Corbyn, he's certainly on our side of the European debate.

:21:12.:21:16.

So if Owen Smith wins, I want to make it very clear that I'm open to

:21:17.:21:21.

working together. And there are others I could work with, too. There

:21:22.:21:25.

is another contest happening out, you might have noticed, it's for the

:21:26.:21:30.

chair of the home affairs select committee. It's an important post,

:21:31.:21:34.

but with no offence, let's face it, it's kind of a retirement job. Among

:21:35.:21:40.

the contenders are Yvette Cooper, Caroline Flint and Chuka Umunna.

:21:41.:21:45.

These are Premier League people. Shouldn't that be the Labour

:21:46.:21:50.

leadership contest? What are these people doing jostling for position

:21:51.:21:54.

in a sideshow? They should be centre stage. The government need an

:21:55.:21:58.

opposition and that means Progressives should be prepared to

:21:59.:22:01.

put differences aside in order to hold them to account. APPLAUSE

:22:02.:22:14.

But if Jeremy Corbyn does win, where does that leave us? A Conservative,

:22:15.:22:19.

Brexit government, and without us to restrain them, they are showing

:22:20.:22:25.

their true colours. Reckless, divisive, uncaring, prepared to risk

:22:26.:22:30.

our future prosperity for their own short-term gain. And a Labour Party

:22:31.:22:32.

that has forgotten the people it's there to stand up for. Hopelessly

:22:33.:22:38.

divided, blatantly unfit for government with no plan for the

:22:39.:22:43.

economy or their country, and led by a man obsessed with refighting the

:22:44.:22:46.

battles of the past and ignoring the damage this government is doing to

:22:47.:22:52.

our future. And therefore there is a hole in the centre of British

:22:53.:22:56.

politics right now, a huge opportunity for a party that will

:22:57.:23:01.

stand up for an open, tolerant and united Britain. There is a hole in

:23:02.:23:05.

the centre of British politics right now for a rallying point, for people

:23:06.:23:10.

who believe in the politics of reason, evidence and moderation, who

:23:11.:23:16.

want fact, not fear, who want responsibility and not recklessness.

:23:17.:23:19.

Who want to believe somebody is looking out for the long-term good

:23:20.:23:23.

of our country. There is a hole in the centre of British politics right

:23:24.:23:31.

now that is crying out to be filled by a real opposition, so we will

:23:32.:23:33.

stand up to the Conservative Brexit government. If Labour will not be

:23:34.:23:37.

the opposition Britain needs, then we will. APPLAUSE

:23:38.:23:51.

And that, that is what we are fighting for. A Britain that is

:23:52.:24:01.

open, tolerant and united. And we will only build that Britain if we

:24:02.:24:07.

win. So here is my plan. We will dramatically rebuild our strength in

:24:08.:24:11.

local government deliberately, passionately, effectively. Winning

:24:12.:24:16.

council seat is our chance to shape, lead and serve our communities and

:24:17.:24:20.

put liberalism into practice. Liberals believe in local

:24:21.:24:24.

government, I believe in local government and every council seat

:24:25.:24:27.

matters to me. My challenge to you is to pick a ward and win it. My

:24:28.:24:32.

commitment to you is that I choose to build our party's revival on

:24:33.:24:36.

victories in every council in this country. APPLAUSE

:24:37.:24:47.

And my plan includes growing, continuing to grow our membership.

:24:48.:24:52.

Our party has grown 80% in just 14 months. But that is merely a staging

:24:53.:24:56.

post. We will continue to build a movement that can win at every

:24:57.:25:01.

level. I will lead the Liberal Democrats as the only party

:25:02.:25:03.

committed to Britain in Europe with a plan to let the people decide our

:25:04.:25:09.

future in a referendum on the as yet nonexistent Tory Brexit deal. I will

:25:10.:25:14.

lead the only party with a plan for our country's longer-term future,

:25:15.:25:21.

green, healthy, well educated, outward looking, prosperous and

:25:22.:25:25.

secure. I will build the open, United and tolerant party that can

:25:26.:25:29.

be the opposition to this Conservative government. On NHS

:25:30.:25:33.

underfunding, on divisive grammar schools, on attacks on British

:25:34.:25:35.

business, I want the Liberal Democrats to be ready to fill the

:25:36.:25:39.

gap where an official opposition to be. I want the Liberal Democrats to

:25:40.:25:49.

be a strong, united opposition. APPLAUSE

:25:50.:25:57.

I want us to be audacious, ambitious and accept the call of history. A

:25:58.:26:03.

century ago, the Liberals lost touch with their purpose and voters and

:26:04.:26:07.

Labour took their chance and became Britain's largest Progressive party.

:26:08.:26:13.

Today I want us utterly ready and determined to take our chance as the

:26:14.:26:18.

tectonic plates shift again. I do not accept the leadership of a party

:26:19.:26:23.

so we can look on for the sidelines. I did it because our destiny is to

:26:24.:26:28.

once again become one of the great parties of government. To be the

:26:29.:26:32.

place where liberals and progressives of all kinds gather to

:26:33.:26:36.

provide be strong opposition that this country needs. That is my plan

:26:37.:26:40.

and I need you to join me to fight for it. Let's be clear... APPLAUSE

:26:41.:26:55.

Let's be clear, we are talking about doing a Justin Trudeau. He is better

:26:56.:27:01.

looking than me and he's got a tattoo. I can fix one of those

:27:02.:27:07.

things if you insist. LAUGHTER I would not get into a boxing ring

:27:08.:27:12.

with him, but I reckon I can have him in a fell race. But the point

:27:13.:27:20.

is, Trudeau's liberals wept over an inadequate opposition to defeat a

:27:21.:27:23.

right-wing Conservative government. -- leapt over. Do you fancy doing

:27:24.:27:33.

that, because I do. You know what, there are some people who will say,

:27:34.:27:39.

steady on, you only have eight MPs. Maybe for the time being some might

:27:40.:27:43.

be sceptical about stealing gay Trudeau, but let's definitely agree

:27:44.:27:48.

that we can and Ashdown to take this party from a handful of seats to

:27:49.:27:54.

dozens of seats. -- sceptical about doing a Trudeau. Nobody believes,

:27:55.:28:02.

whether boundary changes happen or not, that's Labour will gain a

:28:03.:28:06.

single seat from the Tories. Mathematically, the SNP can only

:28:07.:28:11.

take one seat off the Tories. But there are dozens of Tory seats in

:28:12.:28:17.

our reach, which means the only thing standing between the

:28:18.:28:20.

Conservatives and a majority at the next election is the revival of the

:28:21.:28:24.

Liberal Democrats, so let's make it happen. APPLAUSE

:28:25.:28:39.

And we have to make it happen. Because there is a new battle

:28:40.:28:44.

emerging here and across the whole western world, between the forces of

:28:45.:28:50.

tolerant liberalism and intolerant, close minded nationalism. Top of all

:28:51.:28:53.

the things that oppressed me the morning after the referendum, --

:28:54.:29:00.

that depressed me. Was seeing Nigel Farage. Here was a man who pandered

:29:01.:29:06.

to our worst instincts, fear, suspicion of others, and he's not

:29:07.:29:11.

alone. His victory was welcomed by Marine Le Pen in France, and

:29:12.:29:15.

nationalists and populist all over Europe. In a few weeks he went from

:29:16.:29:21.

standing in front of that odious breaking point poster, demonising

:29:22.:29:26.

desperate refugees, to standing on a podium in Mississippi next Donald

:29:27.:29:33.

Trump. Make no mistake, Farage's victory is becoming the government's

:29:34.:29:36.

agenda. When the government talks about a hard Brexit, that's what

:29:37.:29:41.

they mean, a Brexit that cuts as from our neighbours, no matter the

:29:42.:29:45.

consequence for people's jobs and livelihoods. A Brexit at toys with

:29:46.:29:48.

the lives of hard-working people who have made Britain their home, paid

:29:49.:29:54.

their way, immerse themselves in our communities. Just more than a

:29:55.:29:57.

million Brits have also made their homes on the continent. A Brexit

:29:58.:30:05.

that will leave is poorer, weaker and less able to protect ourselves,

:30:06.:30:08.

but we will not let Nigel Farage's vision for Britain win. To coin a

:30:09.:30:10.

phrase, I want my country back. To people who support Labour who

:30:11.:30:30.

look at the last election result and say, can I really take the risk of

:30:31.:30:34.

backing the Liberal Democrats, let me be blunt with you. The risk is

:30:35.:30:40.

for you to do nothing. In 20 years' time, we are going to all be asked

:30:41.:30:47.

by our kids when our NHS, our school system, our unity, as a country, has

:30:48.:30:51.

been impoverished by 20-odd years of Tory rule and when our economy's

:30:52.:30:57.

been relegated, our green industry crashed and our status diminished

:30:58.:31:00.

after two decades of isolation from Europe, we are going to be asked why

:31:01.:31:05.

did you let that happen, what did you do to try and stop it. You might

:31:06.:31:09.

explain, well we lost the referendum so we had to move on and live with

:31:10.:31:14.

it. Or you might explain, well I was in the Labour Party. Momentum

:31:15.:31:19.

destroyed it. But I couldn't bring myself to leave and back anybody

:31:20.:31:23.

else. They'll look at you and say, why didn't you even try, why did you

:31:24.:31:27.

let us limp out of Europe, why did you stick with a party that handed

:31:28.:31:31.

the Conservatives unlimited power and you will know then that you

:31:32.:31:34.

could have done something different, you could have joined us, you could

:31:35.:31:39.

have fought back, you could have taken a risk because joining the

:31:40.:31:42.

Liberal Democrats today, it is a risk, it is a big ask, but let me be

:31:43.:31:48.

very clear, as we stand on the edge of those two horrific realities,

:31:49.:31:52.

Brexit and a Tory stranglehold on Britain, the biggest risk is that

:31:53.:31:56.

you don't join us. APPLAUSE.

:31:57.:32:14.

Let's be absolutely certain of this reality. The only movement with the

:32:15.:32:19.

desire and the potential to stop the calamity of Brexit and the tragedy

:32:20.:32:24.

of a generation of Conservative majority rule is this movement, it

:32:25.:32:29.

is the Liberal Democrats, so you can despair if you want and accept the

:32:30.:32:32.

inevitability of a Tory Government for the next quarter of a century,

:32:33.:32:37.

or you can recognise that the Liberal Democrats can prevent that

:32:38.:32:42.

inevitability. That means you, it means us, together, together. We

:32:43.:32:46.

must fight to keep Britain open, tolerant and united together. The

:32:47.:32:50.

Liberal Democrats must be the real voice of opposition. Together, we

:32:51.:32:52.

must win. Thank you. STUDIO: Tim Farron finishes his

:32:53.:33:05.

second address as lead tore the Liberal Democrats Annual Conference.

:33:06.:33:09.

He spoke for just over 45 minutes under 50, he said he was convinced

:33:10.:33:14.

that despite the referendum, the UK should stay in the EU. He felt a

:33:15.:33:18.

sense oaf bereavement when the result of the referendum on the 23rd

:33:19.:33:23.

came through. He wants another referendum, once and if a deal a

:33:24.:33:29.

done and he says that if the Tories claim we have too many referendums,

:33:30.:33:34.

his answer is, you started it, to the Tories. There was a particularly

:33:35.:33:38.

passionate part of his speech when he spoke about his experience on the

:33:39.:33:43.

island of less boss and Greece, as the Syrian refugees were being

:33:44.:33:53.

washed ashore -- -- Lesbos. There was a clear implication that Britain

:33:54.:33:56.

should be doing more, particularly taking in more child refugees

:33:57.:34:00.

fleeing Syria. Big chunk of the speech on the National Health

:34:01.:34:04.

Service, indeed he wants a national health and care service yet to work

:34:05.:34:09.

out how to pay for that, but it's a work in progress and they are

:34:10.:34:13.

looking at various ways of taxing it. He's making his way through the

:34:14.:34:18.

hall now, getting applause from the party faithful and the odd hug. I

:34:19.:34:25.

said earlier nobody wants to hug Mr Farron, but of course that's only

:34:26.:34:28.

true outside the Lib Dem hall, plenty of the faithle happy to hug.

:34:29.:34:32.

He said the Lib Dems were a free market party which raised a few

:34:33.:34:36.

eyebrows. Nobody's sure what that means. He also said this was a

:34:37.:34:42.

country in chaos, again it's not quite clear what he means bicals

:34:43.:34:47.

yous. He did say, probably in a pitch to mod Ralls Labour voters or

:34:48.:34:51.

even MPs that although he'd been against Tony Blair on the Iraq war

:34:52.:34:57.

and other things, he admired a number of the domestic reforms that

:34:58.:35:03.

Mr Blair had done -- Moderals. There was praise for Tony Blair as regards

:35:04.:35:06.

that, probably the only time Mr Blair will get any praise in this

:35:07.:35:12.

Party Conference season of 2016. He said he wanted to work with other

:35:13.:35:18.

parties, but he'd attempted that during the referendum and Mr Corbyn

:35:19.:35:22.

had pushed him aside, couldn't find time to meet him. He talked about

:35:23.:35:34.

doing a Trudeau which means you lead the party and go straight into being

:35:35.:35:40.

a party of Government, which is what Trudeau Canadians have done, the

:35:41.:35:45.

Canadian Liberals have been long experienced in modern times of

:35:46.:35:48.

forming majority Governments which is not the case for the Liberal

:35:49.:35:51.

Democrats in modern times. He then went on to target a number of Tory

:35:52.:36:02.

seats. He Polly is still with us. What did you make of all that? You

:36:03.:36:07.

got a really strong sense of Tim as a human being. He's a nice guy,

:36:08.:36:11.

filled with emotion when talking about refugees, we heard a lot about

:36:12.:36:15.

his background growing up in Preston in Lancashire about his nan,

:36:16.:36:18.

grandpa, and he was clearly trying to communicate the sense that, he's

:36:19.:36:23.

somebody you can trust, who is very, very likeable and that's pretty

:36:24.:36:27.

absent actually amongst the other party's leaderships. He also went

:36:28.:36:30.

out of his way to say that he understood. He talked about going to

:36:31.:36:34.

this church in Preston where most of the people there had voted to leave

:36:35.:36:39.

the European Union. He understood and he wanted, although he didn't

:36:40.:36:43.

agree with them on that, he wanted to speak more for them. But it

:36:44.:36:48.

wasn't quite clear which way he would do that. There is an identity

:36:49.:36:54.

politics here that he's trying to communicate with those groups with.

:36:55.:36:58.

He is a white working class northern bloke and he, you know, is trying to

:36:59.:37:02.

build that narrative. He's trying to pull together a coalition here. As

:37:03.:37:07.

you said, he's talked about being a free market leader, trying to pull

:37:08.:37:12.

people who're disappointed by the Conservatives having now backing

:37:13.:37:15.

Brexit away from the Conservative Party, trying to draw people away

:37:16.:37:20.

from the Labour Party by talking about how much he respects some of

:37:21.:37:24.

the Blair legacy and trying to reach into the working class northern vote

:37:25.:37:28.

that the great disenfranchised people that we know backed Brexit.

:37:29.:37:31.

He's identify add coalition of people that, if you can unite them,

:37:32.:37:35.

will become a powerful electoral force. It involves the old Lib Dem

:37:36.:37:40.

trick of trying to face both ways at once, that you are trying to get

:37:41.:37:47.

disillusioned working class northern voters, probably Labour voters, you

:37:48.:37:51.

are going to try to get Tory votes to win Tory seats, so you mentioned

:37:52.:37:56.

the free market, the national health to try and get the northern Labour

:37:57.:37:59.

votes and you are going to try to get other Labour votes in the south.

:38:00.:38:03.

You are facing a number of ways. I mean he talked about the need for a

:38:04.:38:07.

national health and care service and that would involve more tax. Yes.

:38:08.:38:13.

But then he talks about being a free market party. What position did he

:38:14.:38:17.

take today that was free market? Well, he talked about the importance

:38:18.:38:22.

of free tread and the importance of remaining open to the European Union

:38:23.:38:26.

and to other countries and making sure that we were able to grow as an

:38:27.:38:30.

economy. But that is it, just free trade? Well, I think that's the most

:38:31.:38:34.

relevant question when we are thinking about economic growth at

:38:35.:38:37.

the moment given the context of Brexit. It makes sense to talk about

:38:38.:38:41.

our stance on trade. Are the Lib Dems in favour of the TTIP deal with

:38:42.:38:48.

the United States? I think it's a complicated deal. It's very much on

:38:49.:38:51.

the rocks. Lots of Lib Dems have backed it, though we have also

:38:52.:38:55.

talked about the need for scrutiny and a lot of detailed things

:38:56.:38:59.

including protection for the NHS to make sure that our taxpayer funded

:39:00.:39:05.

NHS isn't threatened. This comparison with the Canadians,

:39:06.:39:12.

with Mr Trudeau, if you know anything about Canadian politics, it

:39:13.:39:18.

doesn't hold, does it? I'm married to a Canadian. You will know it's

:39:19.:39:24.

not right though. We were discussing whether Justin Trudeau is handsome

:39:25.:39:28.

or not. He's not my taste. What I was meaning was, Trudeau first of

:39:29.:39:31.

all, is a famous name in Canadian politics. That's true. Mr Trudeau's

:39:32.:39:40.

party had been in power for big chunks of the post-war period. It

:39:41.:39:44.

was one of the major parties of Government or of opposition, that's

:39:45.:39:48.

not true of the Liberal Democrats. It is tr that Mr Trudeau's party

:39:49.:39:55.

went into bad times, but nothing like the bad times the Lib Dems

:39:56.:39:59.

faced, down to eight seats. As I say, if you know anything about

:40:00.:40:03.

Canadian politics, the comparison doesn't hold up? As Tim said in his

:40:04.:40:08.

speech, he knows that's incredibly ambitious. It's possible the dice

:40:09.:40:12.

will fall that way and there will be an opportunity for complete

:40:13.:40:15.

reversal. Under what circumstances would that happen? Never say never

:40:16.:40:19.

in British politics, I never thought Brexit could happen and look what

:40:20.:40:25.

happened to Labour in Scotland. It was surprising to see an entirely

:40:26.:40:32.

dominated Labour. So the Lib Dems are going to replace the

:40:33.:40:36.

Conservatives in the same way as the SNP has replaced Labour? I'm saying

:40:37.:40:39.

there are opportunity force the Lib Demes to grow, but let's be clear,

:40:40.:40:44.

what Tim said was, he knows that the Trudeau model is ambitious and what

:40:45.:40:49.

he's looking for is steady growth like Ashdown, perhaps doubling or

:40:50.:40:52.

trebling representations at the next election and hoping to grow from

:40:53.:40:55.

there. He was very passionate about the

:40:56.:41:01.

Syrian refugees, particularly the child refugees, he thinks we should

:41:02.:41:06.

do more. Do we have any idea what his policy on immigration is? If t

:41:07.:41:16.

European Union remaining free to Europe and being very open to

:41:17.:41:21.

refugees, wanting to open up. Refugees, as you know, is not an

:41:22.:41:26.

immigration policy, refugees is a different category, there's moral

:41:27.:41:29.

and legal obligations on refugees which I think is what you were

:41:30.:41:35.

saying we should meet. But on immigration, do we know what the Lib

:41:36.:41:38.

Dem policy is? On Europe, I think it's pretty clear that the Lib Dems

:41:39.:41:41.

would continue to back free movement. So no change there? No

:41:42.:41:45.

change there. And when it comes to... And on non-EU? Lib Dems have

:41:46.:41:53.

looked at the details of the policies the Conservatives have

:41:54.:41:56.

implemented, including for example on allowing spouses to come and

:41:57.:42:02.

consider that those are in fact too Draconian and if they are replicated

:42:03.:42:08.

for EU migrants in a Brexit environment, they could be

:42:09.:42:13.

incredibly damaging. Just to finish up on this, since he said he wanted

:42:14.:42:17.

to speak particularly for the people in this church which he seemed to be

:42:18.:42:22.

implying were northern working class people who'd voted against the EU or

:42:23.:42:28.

for whom immigration is a huge issue, his response in speaking for

:42:29.:42:33.

#24e78 them is to continue with the existing policy of free movement and

:42:34.:42:38.

to be more liberal than we currently are on non-EU immigration. In what

:42:39.:42:42.

way is that speaking for them? Lots of the concern about immigration is

:42:43.:42:46.

associated with pressure on Public Services. When you talk to people

:42:47.:42:52.

about it. Tim's making a big pitch for major investment in the NHS. So

:42:53.:42:55.

not changing the numbers, they could grow? No, but making sure that the

:42:56.:42:59.

Public Services grow to meet demand in a way that I think they haven't

:43:00.:43:01.

been able to. OK.

:43:02.:43:08.

We're joined now from Brighton by the Lib Dem president, Sal Brinton.

:43:09.:43:12.

Welcome to the Daily Politics. Give us your thoughts on the speech. Hi,

:43:13.:43:20.

Jo. It was inspirational. Tim has actually found a really strong voice

:43:21.:43:23.

about the role of the Liberal Democrats in the future, the place

:43:24.:43:28.

of the Liberal Democrats in politics today and absolutely been clear

:43:29.:43:32.

that, as Labour leave the place of opposition and the centre ground,

:43:33.:43:35.

that's exactly the place that we are going to take. Right. What makes you

:43:36.:43:41.

or Tim Farron think that the Liberal Democrats can be the official

:43:42.:43:46.

opposition with just eight MPs? Because our eight MPs are pulling an

:43:47.:43:50.

enormous amount of weight and the real problem, Jo, is not what we are

:43:51.:43:56.

doing, but people like Norman Lamb are making considerable impacts.

:43:57.:43:59.

He's well respected in the NHS on issues throughout Parliament and the

:44:00.:44:03.

wider world. It's about Labour abdicating their responsibility.

:44:04.:44:07.

There is a vacuum. Tim is saying, we may be few in number in the Commons

:44:08.:44:11.

we are much larger in the country and we are going to step up to the

:44:12.:44:14.

challenge. Who is listening to you? We are going to fight. But who is

:44:15.:44:19.

listening? Which voters are listening and in what way is Tim

:44:20.:44:22.

Farron cutting through to the wider public?

:44:23.:44:25.

We are beginning to see that already. We have by-election

:44:26.:44:30.

victories, increase in membership sinks the referendum with people

:44:31.:44:33.

making it clear they have come to Tim and the Liberal Democrats

:44:34.:44:37.

because we are open, pro-European, we are tolerant and what's more, we

:44:38.:44:40.

are probably the only united party around at the moment. Although

:44:41.:44:44.

Labour can boast the same sort of increase in numbers if not more in

:44:45.:44:48.

terms of membership. How long do you think it would take for you to get

:44:49.:44:52.

back to the position you were in in terms of numbers of MPs pre-2015?

:44:53.:44:59.

Anything is possible at future elections. Of course anything is

:45:00.:45:04.

possible, but... Tim was making the point, we are not going to jump

:45:05.:45:08.

straight back up into the high 60s, but we can look at dozens, possibly

:45:09.:45:13.

more, if other parties fracture. By 2020? More importantly, as Tim

:45:14.:45:18.

says... Jo, if we are the only party who is going to be fighting for

:45:19.:45:22.

investment in the NHS, for tackling this real problem about the division

:45:23.:45:27.

between health and social care that is absolutely dire at the moment,

:45:28.:45:30.

nobody else is stepping into that field. We have been talking about

:45:31.:45:34.

investment. Norman Lamb's commission is absolutely going to give a clear

:45:35.:45:37.

agenda about how it's going to happen, the Liberal Democrats are

:45:38.:45:41.

leading it and we will, if necessary, show where the extra

:45:42.:45:45.

investment's got to come to make that happen. You think that

:45:46.:45:50.

policy... The Liberal Democrats know that's a major issue for members of

:45:51.:45:57.

public. The current state of the NHS is absolutely vital to most voters

:45:58.:46:02.

and we are the only people who have a plan. OK, you have got evidence to

:46:03.:46:08.

show that the public is broadly in favour of paying higher taxes,

:46:09.:46:12.

Norman Lamb couldn't give me the exact figure but certainly a penny

:46:13.:46:16.

on national insurance to pay for the extra investment?

:46:17.:46:20.

One of the reasons he couldn't give the exact figure is because the

:46:21.:46:25.

commission hasn't concluded its work. When that is done, what we are

:46:26.:46:29.

saying is, if it requires extra investment and if it has to come

:46:30.:46:33.

through taxation, we as the Liberal Democrats need to make that

:46:34.:46:37.

investment. What's more, we hear from an awful lot of people that

:46:38.:46:42.

they would be prepared to pay a bit more in income tax to save the NHS.

:46:43.:46:47.

Tim Farron said in his speech that we are the free market, pro-trade

:46:48.:46:54.

business party now, are you advocating free trade in the NHS?

:46:55.:46:59.

No, not in the sense that the Conservatives mean. The free market

:47:00.:47:03.

was Tim talking about the single market. One of the great concerns

:47:04.:47:09.

the business world has had since the referendum is the Conservatives just

:47:10.:47:12.

walking away from the interests of business and the market in this

:47:13.:47:19.

country. It's very interesting that a senior businesswoman, Nicola

:47:20.:47:24.

Horlick, has joined the Liberal Democrats following Liam Fox's

:47:25.:47:28.

comments about business people being fat and lazy. We are very clear that

:47:29.:47:34.

Britain's businesses have benefited enormously from the single market

:47:35.:47:38.

and already trade elsewhere in the world and we will continue to

:47:39.:47:42.

support them in that. We recognise the importance to business to

:47:43.:47:45.

continuing trading in the European Union. You say you are the

:47:46.:47:50.

pro-business party and Tim Farron said the Prime Minister and

:47:51.:47:54.

conservative government has plunged our country into chaos. What the

:47:55.:48:00.

chaos, where is it? The chaos of, will we have a single market or not?

:48:01.:48:04.

Will we have free movement of labour or not? That's not chaos, it's a

:48:05.:48:12.

discussion. No, it's chaos. We have a large international firms saying

:48:13.:48:16.

that if they are not sure if there will be a signal market, that they

:48:17.:48:21.

want to retain businesses in the UK. Japanese car manufacturers,

:48:22.:48:25.

businesses in the city saying they are considering moving. That is the

:48:26.:48:31.

chaos now. But there are no figures or economic data, how does the chaos

:48:32.:48:38.

manifested itself there? It's too early for economic data, it's only

:48:39.:48:43.

three months since we left, however, we are continuing to get employment

:48:44.:48:47.

and productivity data. The moment to have large manufacturing industry

:48:48.:48:51.

saying that if Britain is going to remove itself from Europe, we will

:48:52.:48:55.

move our European HQ from Britain to Europe, that means we are likely to

:48:56.:49:02.

lose hundreds of thousands of jobs in this country. Until the

:49:03.:49:06.

manufacturers see exactly what the Brexit plans are from the

:49:07.:49:09.

government, but they are beginning to warm us up there is a problem. We

:49:10.:49:14.

are the only party still fighting for the single market and to have a

:49:15.:49:19.

place in it. It's vital for our business and foreign businesses

:49:20.:49:23.

based here to have access to that European single market. Tim Farron

:49:24.:49:27.

said it was the referendum and Conservative short termism that has

:49:28.:49:31.

landed the country in the chaos he talks about, but you want a second

:49:32.:49:35.

referendum, despite the fact you now think they are a bad idea. Part of

:49:36.:49:40.

the problem with the last referendum was that there was no detail on what

:49:41.:49:46.

was exactly going to happen. As we know, there were a lot of untruths

:49:47.:49:50.

and a lot of people that were absolutely nothing to do with the

:49:51.:49:55.

referendum used by the Leave campaign. Yes, people voted to

:49:56.:50:00.

leave, and Tim and the Lib Dems are clear we do not want a rerun that

:50:01.:50:05.

referendum. We have agreed as a country to get on the train to

:50:06.:50:09.

depart, but we do not yet have a destination. Tim is right that the

:50:10.:50:13.

detail of that destination is critical. It may be that there are a

:50:14.:50:17.

large number of people in this country who will say the cost is too

:50:18.:50:21.

high if we lose hundreds of thousands of jobs because we will

:50:22.:50:24.

lose the single market, but we don't know because Theresa May will not

:50:25.:50:28.

tell us. Sal Brinton in Brighton, thank you. A big day for the Liberal

:50:29.:50:34.

Democrats in Brighton. An even bigger day in New York taking place.

:50:35.:50:45.

The UN and world leaders are gathering for their annual September

:50:46.:50:53.

gathering. Barack Obama has been speaking. Theresa May will also be

:50:54.:50:56.

speaking for the first time to the United Nations.

:50:57.:50:58.

Let's talk to the BBC's deputy political editor Jon Pienaar,

:50:59.:51:01.

he's at the United Nations in New York.

:51:02.:51:04.

Bring us up to date over what's happening. The Prime Minister, in a

:51:05.:51:13.

couple of hours' time, will be on the floor of the UN General

:51:14.:51:16.

Assembly, making her debut speech. The message of the speech will be

:51:17.:51:20.

the message that has been pressed home in meeting after meeting with

:51:21.:51:25.

President and Prime Minister and President and Prime Minister. It's

:51:26.:51:29.

like diplomatic speed dating. The thrust of this is the Prime Minister

:51:30.:51:33.

coming here to tell world leaders that because Britain is leaving the

:51:34.:51:35.

European Union doesn't mean Britain is giving up its role as a global

:51:36.:51:41.

player. Britain still meeting its target for international aid, still

:51:42.:51:45.

meeting targets for spending on defence. It still playing a role as

:51:46.:51:50.

a big global player. The question mark over how that carries on after

:51:51.:51:55.

Brexit will be on everyone's mind. I'm sure there will be great

:51:56.:52:01.

interest among global leaders and their advisers around them over what

:52:02.:52:05.

Brexit will actually mean. They will be asking Theresa May about that. I

:52:06.:52:10.

suppose that she hasn't been able to tell us, and I assume therefore that

:52:11.:52:15.

she doesn't have much new to tell them. She may have an idea of where

:52:16.:52:21.

this is going, but she can't know. This will be hammered out over

:52:22.:52:27.

countless meetings with other leaders at prime ministerial and

:52:28.:52:31.

cabinet and official level. Endless meetings at that level between

:52:32.:52:35.

endless countries, not just in the European Union, on how trading deals

:52:36.:52:39.

will work in the future. It's a horse trading game. It's barely even

:52:40.:52:44.

begun. We know at this stage it will not be easy. We also know there are

:52:45.:52:49.

quite powerful voices in the European Union who believe it

:52:50.:52:52.

shouldn't be made easier, it should be made as hard as possible. The

:52:53.:52:57.

Slovakian leader has said it should be as painful for Britain as

:52:58.:53:01.

possible to send the message to the rest of the European Union, that

:53:02.:53:07.

it's cold out there. When the Prime Minister comes into the cheap seats

:53:08.:53:11.

at the back of the plane, this was put to her, and she said they would

:53:12.:53:15.

get a deal they would all signed. We don't know what that deal will be

:53:16.:53:21.

like. That idea is in Theresa May's mind. Still a lot of haggling to go.

:53:22.:53:26.

The theme of this particular General Assembly has a lot to do with the

:53:27.:53:31.

number of refugees in the world, displaced peoples, millions of

:53:32.:53:35.

people on the move in various parts of the world, not least in the

:53:36.:53:38.

Middle East, heading into Greece and Italy. Mrs May's message on that is

:53:39.:53:44.

quite, how can I put it, unsympathetic? I wouldn't

:53:45.:53:50.

necessarily say unsympathetic. There was something of a lesson about what

:53:51.:53:55.

Theresa May was saying when she was addressing the wider world and

:53:56.:53:58.

setting out how she sees the migration crisis. For one thing,

:53:59.:54:02.

asserting every country including Britain has the right to police and

:54:03.:54:06.

control its own border. It was like saying, hands off, we will deal with

:54:07.:54:11.

our own borders, don't tell us who to let in. They don't need to be

:54:12.:54:16.

told it's a very serious crisis, about 65 million people displaced

:54:17.:54:23.

from their homes, more than the population of the UK. A lot of

:54:24.:54:25.

countries out there like Germany and others, are feeling the sharp end of

:54:26.:54:29.

this. Theresa May saying that we have to to get together to work out

:54:30.:54:34.

a plan, but perhaps spending money on the borders of conflict zones,

:54:35.:54:37.

not letting them sweep across Europe. If we let them move, let

:54:38.:54:41.

them go to the first country and stay there. A lot of people might

:54:42.:54:45.

like that to be the case, but some might not take kindly to being

:54:46.:54:51.

lectured by Britain. John Pienaar outside the United Nations in New

:54:52.:54:52.

York. Thank you for joining us. Now, what did activists

:54:53.:54:56.

watching Tim Farron's speech Most of the delegates have rushed

:54:57.:55:10.

off to the train station to get home, but three of them promised to

:55:11.:55:15.

talk to me. Carroll, Stephen and Ellie. Karen, what did you make of

:55:16.:55:20.

Tim Farron's speech? I think it's one of the best he has made as

:55:21.:55:25.

leader. It was passionate and to the point. Very, very good. Stephen,

:55:26.:55:31.

what did you make of the big appeal to moderate Labour voters, praising

:55:32.:55:36.

Tony Blair. Did that sit comfortably with you? It felt very comfortable.

:55:37.:55:41.

A large portion of the population voted for Tony Blair in the glory

:55:42.:55:46.

days of 1997 and have felt abandoned. Labour has left the field

:55:47.:55:49.

and talking to themselves and there is an open field out their words

:55:50.:55:54.

voters desperately want an open, tolerant and united party and he

:55:55.:55:58.

gave that speech wonderfully. Everybody feeling positive. Ellie,

:55:59.:56:03.

was there anything in there that appealed to you directly? Tim Farron

:56:04.:56:07.

talked about the NHS and scrapping Cammack sat test that rhyme is good.

:56:08.:56:12.

to you? -- scrapping Sats tests. The way he's defending it, refugees,

:56:13.:56:29.

willing to defend them, and there's a party willing to defend them, that

:56:30.:56:33.

resonated with me. A message that Tim Farron trying to get out about

:56:34.:56:38.

having a second referendum. Is that a difficult message, because people

:56:39.:56:41.

might feel it is not respectful of the way people voted in the first

:56:42.:56:45.

place. It's a difficult situation, I accept, but we have to be proud that

:56:46.:56:49.

our party has believed it's in the best interest of the country. 48% of

:56:50.:56:57.

the population voted for it. The 52% were lied to and we need to be very

:56:58.:57:01.

clear that it's in the interests of our country to stay in and we will

:57:02.:57:06.

stand for that. As you go away from the conference after your day here,

:57:07.:57:11.

membership is up and everybody feels pretty positive, there is still a

:57:12.:57:15.

big challenge. It's a big challenge for the party but I'm sure it's one

:57:16.:57:19.

Tim and the rest of the party will rise to. Membership going up so high

:57:20.:57:24.

was amazing after the referendum. It shows that people are looking to the

:57:25.:57:29.

Liberal Democrats to take lead. Thank you for staying. We better let

:57:30.:57:32.

these people rush off to the trains to get home. Would it be fair on

:57:33.:57:39.

domestic policy to sum up Tim Farron's speech that he and the Lib

:57:40.:57:43.

Dems are now the heirs to Tony Blair? I think that's what he's

:57:44.:57:48.

trying to say. The great stuff that Tony Blair and the 97 Labour

:57:49.:57:52.

government did on workers' rights and public service investment, we

:57:53.:57:56.

need some of that again. Will that cut through? Is it a rich seam to

:57:57.:58:04.

mine? I think it works as a particular message in the

:58:05.:58:09.

Westminster bubble. Tim is trying to communicate something to Labour MPs

:58:10.:58:14.

and activists who are feeling disenfranchised by Corbynistas. At

:58:15.:58:16.

some point for the centre-left to win again it has to stop talking

:58:17.:58:22.

about Tony Blair and talk about the future. Thank you to Polly for

:58:23.:58:29.

talking to us. This might be overshadowed by breaking news in the

:58:30.:58:34.

United States, a number of reports saying Angelina Jolie filing for

:58:35.:58:37.

divorce from Brad Pitt. I can see from the look in your eyes it's a

:58:38.:58:41.

big story. That's all from our coverage of Tim Farron's party

:58:42.:58:45.

conference speech. We will be back at midday tomorrow. I will be back

:58:46.:58:50.

on Thursday. Join us if you can. We better check on that story. It's

:58:51.:58:52.

interesting. You see clips of a pile of bricks

:58:53.:59:03.

causing anger in a gallery and a pickled shark

:59:04.:59:07.

floating in a tank.

:59:08.:59:11.

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