Browse content similar to 20/09/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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As the Labour leadership contest enters its final 24 hours, | :00:37. | :00:41. | |
it's high noon in the battle to take control of the party. | :00:42. | :00:47. | |
As we come on air, the party's governing body, the NEC, | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
is settling in for a marathon meeting that could prove | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
crucial in the ongoing struggle between Mr Corbyn | :00:54. | :00:55. | |
Theresa May's in New York at the UN, where she'll warn about mass | :00:56. | :01:03. | |
She's also telling world leaders the UK isn't turning inwards | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
The Liberal Democrats are meeting in Brighton ahead of leader | :01:09. | :01:14. | |
Tim Farron's big speech, and we'll be talking | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
about their plan for a new tax to pay for the NHS. | :01:18. | :01:24. | |
And as Jeremy Corbyn reveals his preferred teatime snack, | :01:25. | :01:26. | |
we'll be asking why politicians find it so hard to pick | :01:27. | :01:29. | |
Why do they find it so hard? We're going to find out. | :01:30. | :01:46. | |
of the programme today, it's the Guardian's Polly Toynbee. | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
She's resisted the lure of Liberal Democrat conference | :01:52. | :01:53. | |
in Brighton to be with us here in Westminster - | :01:54. | :01:55. | |
probably because we told her there would be free biscuits. | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
That's just something we tell all our guests to get them | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
So we'll be talking about the Liberal Democrat | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
conference, and we'll be back on air at two o'clock to bring you live | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
coverage of leader Tim Farron's speech to his party. | :02:11. | :02:16. | |
How could you miss that? Best get the popcorn in now! | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
But first today, let's talk about Theresa May's trip | :02:22. | :02:24. | |
to New York, where she's due to give her first speech | :02:25. | :02:26. | |
She's already been talking about migration, and today she and | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson are meeting with big US investors | :02:31. | :02:33. | |
to spread the word about trade opportunities with post-Brexit | :02:34. | :02:35. | |
She's also responded to Eastern European leaders | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
for suggesting they would make life difficult for the UK on the way | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
We're going to be in a negotiation with the other members of the | :02:44. | :02:50. | |
European Union as we negotiate the way we are exiting and the | :02:51. | :02:53. | |
relationship we're going to have with them afterwards. | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
I'm very clear, we're going to go in there to | :02:57. | :02:58. | |
get the right deal for the United Kingdom. | :02:59. | :03:01. | |
I'm going to be ambitious for Britain in the negotiations, and | :03:02. | :03:04. | |
I want to see the deal that's going to be right for the UK. | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
We're joined now by the Conservative MP Kwasi Kwarteng. | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
Welcome back. Are we not at the moment, because we all look at what | :03:14. | :03:23. | |
the Prime Minister says, but even the Slovakian prime minister, what | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
he says, are we not in a phoney war where what anybody says does not | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
matter? You make a good point. At the beginning, people are setting | :03:35. | :03:37. | |
out their stall in the negotiation, saying they will be tough and will | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
drive difficult deals, but I think what the Prime Minister said is | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
right. There will be a deal, at the end of the day, because it is in our | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
mutual interest as Britain and the EU to come to a deal. That is the | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
line from your side of the argument, but you said we are at the beginning | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
of a negotiation. I'm not even sure we are. Preparatory stage. The | :04:00. | :04:07. | |
understanding is that article 50 will be invoked sometime next year. | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
That is 12 months, maybe you could be more specific. Before Easter? | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
What do you think? We have been in the EU for over 40 years, so whether | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
it is at some point next year in the long run is neither here nor there. | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
It has to be done and dusted if we're going to an election in 2020 | :04:27. | :04:38. | |
is at least before then. If you add two years to 2017, that's 2019. | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
There isn't a problem. I can understand that you can't rush to | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
trigger article 50, you want to do preparatory work beforehand. But the | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
longer you leave it, I would suggest, the more you create a | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
vacuum and the more others will fill that vacuum, not necessarily to your | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
advantage. There will be a long vacuum anyway because the process of | :05:04. | :05:06. | |
negotiation will take longer than two years, I suspect. Irene the FT | :05:07. | :05:13. | |
day after day and one industry after another, the sheer complexity of | :05:14. | :05:16. | |
what has to be agreed on each kind of sector that we are involved with | :05:17. | :05:24. | |
I think... It will leak from both sides. Under article 50, they cannot | :05:25. | :05:32. | |
take more than two years unless all 27 members plus ourselves I agree. | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
Indeed. The great problem is there will be no agreement on anything | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
unless all 27, plus the European Parliament, agree on everything. The | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
idea that we can get there in two years seems to be whistled thinking. | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
Perhaps we can, but during that time, there will be huge gaps, highs | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
and lows in expectations. It will leak from the European side, from | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
the 27 countries, leak from Parliament and from our site, too. | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
The party is riven. There is the Chancellor on one side saying soft | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
Brexit, and then there is Boris, the man David Davis, the terrible three. | :06:12. | :06:17. | |
They are on the hard Brexit site. You can exaggerate the complexities. | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
There is access to the single market and there is freedom of movement. | :06:21. | :06:27. | |
They are linked. And a lot of discussion will be about those | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
issues. I read the FT, as Polly does, I even read her column. There | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
is endless hand-wringing and saying how difficult it will be, and how | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
complicated and all the rest of it, but actually, I think the principles | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
are simple. There is no doubt that Brexit means Brexit. What that means | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
is that we will not stay in the U. We know exactly what it doesn't | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
mean. Hasn't the narrative been set because Theresa May doesn't have | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
anything to say at the moment? If she doesn't have a message to sell, | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
because it will take time, that vacuum could create problems. You | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
said it will take time, so the narrative will be filled. We are in | :07:09. | :07:16. | |
a stage before preparation. The negotiations haven't started. There | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
is no point in trying to second-guess our position before we | :07:20. | :07:22. | |
start. I know there is endless hand-wringing. Brexit means Brexit | :07:23. | :07:31. | |
is a tautology. They want us to leave as well. We all know that. It | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
is a clear mandate, a clear proposition, and I think we will be | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
able to deliver this into under half years. Simplicity has been the big | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
lie on the Brexit side of the argument. There is nothing simple | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
about it. Every industry has their own quite complex needs in terms of | :07:50. | :07:56. | |
staying in the single market. That and the free movement of people. At | :07:57. | :08:04. | |
the end of the two-year period, if there is still a tonne of tough to | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
do, what happens? You describe article 50 very well. We leave | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
anyway. Sir James Dyson has a clear view and says we start with a blank | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
sheet of paper and we can carry on negotiating. I don't think this | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
hotel California idea that we are always going to stay in is tenable | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
and that it is going to happen. Is it your view that we cannot sign | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
trade deals with other countries while these talks are going on, but | :08:34. | :08:41. | |
could we begin negotiations, scope out deals with Canada or America or | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
Australia? That think that's why the Prime Minister set up the Department | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
of International trade. We know we can't sign deals, so what is the | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
point of having a Department if they are not doing preparatory work for | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
deals that will be signed after we leave the EU? Is that possible? You | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
can scope it out. Liam Fox is in the Gulf states making deals with people | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
that a lot of people would regard as quite unsavoury. If that is the | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
alternative to the EU, making deals with dictators and people bombing | :09:14. | :09:16. | |
other countries, I'm not sure that will go down awfully well. The EU | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
makes deals with these people. It may do, but not the sort of deals we | :09:23. | :09:28. | |
will be proposing. We will be pretty desperate. We have 44% of our trade | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
with Europe, so if we are replacing some of that, we will be on our | :09:33. | :09:35. | |
knees in these negotiations and will take any deal. I think the prophecy | :09:36. | :09:44. | |
of doom, people have had enough of. In my constituency, people are very | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
optimistic and upbeat about the prospects for Brexit. I have lots of | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
exporters who export all around the world, selling fridges to Libya, if | :09:55. | :10:00. | |
you can believe. These companies are buoyant and optimistic about the | :10:01. | :10:03. | |
future. Nothing has happened yet. One thing that may be going the way | :10:04. | :10:10. | |
of the Brexiteer 's, which is not of their making, but it is quite clear | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
when you look at the lack of future for TTIP with North America, or the | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
inability of Congress to agree the specific trade deal which has been | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
agreed but not ratified by the US Congress, that maybe these big | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
regional trade deals have come to an end and we are moving back into an | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
age of bilateral trade deals between Japan and America, Britain and | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
Canada and whatever. You need to look at the reasons why TTIP is | :10:41. | :10:43. | |
falling apart. It is because the Americans won't agree to regulations | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
that we have, and we won't agree to let them trade on more relaxed | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
regulations. Do we want beef from America that has been injected with | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
chemicals or antibiotics that we wouldn't allow? We want the same | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
standards. And that was the problem. Are you saying that Britain would | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
accept lower standards than the EU in a TTIP deal? I have no idea, I am | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
simply saying that it would seem axiomatic, let's take Canada, that | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
it would be easy to do for one country to do a deal than Canada | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
doing a deal with the whole of the EU. I'm not sure why, unless there | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
are regulations the EU insists on that we will drop. If you have 27 | :11:28. | :11:34. | |
individual states performing -- forming part of the EU, it is much | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
harder, all things being equal, to do a deal with 27 when they had to | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
agree on everything than it is with one country. It is just arithmetic. | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
This kind of speculation, this kind of discussion, based on a minimum of | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
fact, because we don't know, this will continue all the way through | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
Christmas, won't it? In the negotiation, we don't know what the | :11:59. | :12:01. | |
other people are thinking. It is like any kind of game theory. You | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
don't know what all 27 are thinking, so we have to stop the discussions. | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
I don't believe we will have these endless .my John Major said it will | :12:13. | :12:15. | |
take ten years, someone else says it won't. The big question that will be | :12:16. | :12:22. | |
asked is, what was all this for? We are going to go through this hell | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
for at least two years, and at the end it might be OK, it might be | :12:27. | :12:29. | |
disastrous, but what was it all for? That's what people will ask. I think | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
it was good to reclaim sovereign rights over a sovereign country. | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
Let's not refight the referendum campaign. Oh, we will! | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
The question for today is all about biscuits. | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
You can't say we shy away from the big issues of the day. | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
Yes, Jeremy Corbyn was interviewed by users of the website Mumsnet | :12:53. | :12:55. | |
yesterday, and as is now traditional, he was asked | :12:56. | :12:57. | |
Was it, A: Garibaldi, B: Jammy dodgers, C: | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
A bit later on in the show, Polly, who bows to no-one | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
in her biscuit knowledge, will give us the correct answer. | :13:08. | :13:17. | |
In just 24 hours' time the ballot will close in the contest to choose | :13:18. | :13:20. | |
We won't know until this coming Saturday if it will be | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
Jeremy Corbyn or Owen Smith, although if you were to head | :13:26. | :13:28. | |
to your local bookmakers, you'd need to spend ?66 in order | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
to win ?1 back on a bet for Mr Corbyn to see | :13:33. | :13:35. | |
Let's just explain that - put down ?66 can, get ?1 back if he wins. | :13:36. | :13:53. | |
Not that we endorse gambling, particularly at those odds. | :13:54. | :13:55. | |
But Mr Smith's campaign insists he is still in with a chance, | :13:56. | :13:58. | |
and both men are still working hard to hoover up those final votes. | :13:59. | :14:01. | |
Let's have a reminder of how the campaign has unfolded. | :14:02. | :14:08. | |
Launching my bid to be the next leader of the Labour Party, and more | :14:09. | :14:15. | |
importantly than that, the next Labour Prime | :14:16. | :14:16. | |
This party is strong, this party is capable | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
And that I am leader of the party, I will be that Prime | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
It doesn't mean trading our principles. | :14:26. | :14:35. | |
How you can complain about disunity in the | :14:36. | :14:42. | |
party when you and others are the ones who resigned from the party? | :14:43. | :14:52. | |
Most people in the undecided section have moved | :14:53. | :14:54. | |
and swelled the ranks of the | :14:55. | :14:55. | |
I think we should stay within the European | :14:56. | :15:06. | |
Union, and I've always believed that. | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
Jeremy wants to leave the European Union. | :15:11. | :15:12. | |
We have to realise that regrettable as they are, the | :15:13. | :15:14. | |
results of the referendum, we have to ensure we have access to | :15:15. | :15:17. | |
European markets for manufactured goods. | :15:18. | :15:24. | |
I've absolutely no desire whatsoever to go on Strictly Come Dancing. | :15:25. | :15:47. | |
If Jeremy Corbyn wins, as the polls seem to suggest, | :15:48. | :15:50. | |
attention will turn to the other battle within Labour, over | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
who controls the party machinery - supporters of Mr Corbyn or those MPs | :15:55. | :15:57. | |
And today sees something of a show-down at a meeting | :15:58. | :16:04. | |
of Labour's National Executive Committee. | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
It's just got under way, and it could pave the way for rule | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
changes that could change the balance of power within Labour. | :16:12. | :16:13. | |
The National Executive Committee is the ruling body of the Labour Party. | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
It is composed of 33 members from various branches | :16:20. | :16:21. | |
of the Labour movement, including MPs, trade unions | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
The NEC is finely balanced between allies and opponents | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
of Jeremy Corbyn, making it a key battleground in the ongoing power | :16:31. | :16:37. | |
In August, six new NEC members were elected in a clean sweep | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
Today is the final meeting before they take up their posts. | :16:43. | :16:50. | |
Items up for discussion include possible changes to the rules | :16:51. | :17:01. | |
Labour MPs voted overwhelming for a return to a Shadow Cabinet | :17:02. | :17:18. | |
Jeremy Corbyn, however, is understood to favour a counter | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
proposal for "partial" elections that would see the Leader, | :17:24. | :17:25. | |
MPs and party members each decide a third of the Shadow Cabinet. | :17:26. | :17:28. | |
But whatever is agreed today won't be the end of the story. | :17:29. | :17:31. | |
It will also need to be ratified by the party conference | :17:32. | :17:34. | |
Well, Labour's deputy Tom Watson has been speaking ahead of the meeting. | :17:35. | :17:40. | |
We've been airing our dirty linen in public. | :17:41. | :17:48. | |
We've got a leadership election, we'll get a new leader on Saturday | :17:49. | :17:51. | |
and we've got to put the band back together because Jeremy, | :17:52. | :17:54. | |
Owen, myself, John McDonnell, most of our front bench, | :17:55. | :17:57. | |
think we're heading for an early General Election. | :17:58. | :18:00. | |
So, there are a series of proposals today to try and help do that. | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
Well, let's find out more now from our correspondent Mark Lobel. | :18:07. | :18:09. | |
He's outside the meeting which we're told could last for as | :18:10. | :18:11. | |
Here you are again outside an NEC meeting, the Labour ruling | :18:12. | :18:23. | |
executive, is this the showdown we have been talking about? You are | :18:24. | :18:30. | |
right, it's a little bit like Groundhog Day. Two months ago they | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
were here Jeremy Corbyn trying to get on to the leadership ballot. | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
Since then over the last two months while they've tried really hard in | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
public, Jeremy Corbyn and the deputy leader, to really get on and show | :18:43. | :18:45. | |
they're best of friends, behind the scenes they've been fighting very | :18:46. | :18:48. | |
hard. When the parliamentary Labour Party came up with this proposal for | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
elected Shadow Cabinet members, rather than appointed ones, it was | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
met with scepticism by Jeremy Corbyn's camp. One member told me it | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
was transparent manoeuvring to undermine Jeremy Corbyn. He at first | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
suggested he would bring members on as part of the election but I | :19:06. | :19:07. | |
understand he is going to kick the idea into the long grass today so | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
that it can get proper consideration as part of a wider review of party | :19:12. | :19:14. | |
democracy so that might not be resolved today. But this other issue | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
of registered supporters, the constituency that traditionally | :19:21. | :19:23. | |
favours left-wing leaders, might be scrapped, that's another thing put | :19:24. | :19:28. | |
up today, people who pay ?25 to vote for the leadership, to get a vote in | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
the leadership, that facility might go as a result of today's meeting. | :19:34. | :19:40. | |
In terms of the party itself, inward looking, infighting, the critics | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
say. But this is a battle for the heart and soul of the Labour Party. | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
What is or isn't decided today or at any subsequent meeting will decide | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
the future direction of the party, won't it? Absolutely. This is a | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
crunch meeting and if it's not resolved today, the Shadow Cabinet | :19:57. | :20:02. | |
issue is still a crunch issue, as one former Shadow Cabinet who left | :20:03. | :20:05. | |
upset with Jeremy Corbyn's handling of the party said to me we might by | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
the end of this week and on Saturday if he is re-elected as is widely | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
rekicked, have Jeremy Corbyn strong within the party, the party itself | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
will remaven divided and this Shadow Cabinet Minister is looking to see | :20:19. | :20:21. | |
who is in the Shadow Cabinet and what it looks like as an example of | :20:22. | :20:24. | |
how the party will continue and whether they'll be a strong | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
opposition. Jeremy Corbyn's camp, however, says that there is at least | :20:29. | :20:31. | |
a dozen former Shadow Cabinet members that will come in, even if | :20:32. | :20:34. | |
he is still appoints a Shadow Cabinet and they'll focus on two | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
things. Electoral strategy straightaway, they almost want an | :20:39. | :20:41. | |
early election and they would encourage Theresa May to have one. | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
They also need to prepare for the local and mayoral elections in May. | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
Second, they're going to try to change the party into a | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
union-backed, take it away from the momentum groups, some upset, some | :20:57. | :20:59. | |
members of the parliamentary party and want to take away something that | :21:00. | :21:05. | |
turns their stomach and make it into a more inclusive party. Only eight | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
hours to go, to see you this evening. | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
He has nothing else to do, no harm, keeps him out of harm's way! | :21:14. | :21:16. | |
She's a newly elected member of the NEC who'll be taking up | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
So, she too can look forward to sitting in these meetings | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
So you are not at the NEC today because you are not yet on but you | :21:25. | :21:34. | |
will be for the next meeting? Absolutely. I will be joining | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
straight after conference. What is your view on whether or not the | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
Shadow Cabinet should be elected? Well, you know, I think it's | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
important that sort of debate happens really. I am on the NEC to | :21:48. | :21:54. | |
represent members. I was elected to represent members and members will | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
unite behind and make their decision on Saturday clear. I understand | :21:59. | :22:05. | |
that. What I am asking is when that debate takes place, it seems like it | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
may take place today, but may not be decided today, so it will still be | :22:11. | :22:13. | |
an issue by the time you are on the NEC. What is your position? I like | :22:14. | :22:20. | |
the idea of opening up the notion of greater party democracy and | :22:21. | :22:23. | |
decision-making to members and widening that debate and looking at | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
that. It's great that the parliamentary Labour Party has put | :22:28. | :22:30. | |
forward this concept and this idea because I think it's something we | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
ought to discuss and look at. Who do you think should elect the Shadow | :22:36. | :22:38. | |
Cabinet? I think the notion of having a debate that involves the | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
membership in being able to select some is a good idea. The opportunity | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
also for the membership having decided their leader, the | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
opportunity for the leader to actually also appoint who he would | :22:53. | :22:54. | |
like to serve the leadership with him. Let me get this clear. You | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
think the broad membership should choose some of the Shadow Cabinet, | :23:00. | :23:02. | |
and the leader should also choose some? I like the idea of having that | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
discussion about how can we enable the membership to have a greater say | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
in party democracy in the running of the Labour Party and I think the | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
notion of enabling the Shadow Cabinet to have that interaction | :23:19. | :23:20. | |
with the membership is an important one. Equally important is the | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
opportunity for the parliamentary Labour Party to have its say but | :23:27. | :23:33. | |
crucially... The leader, the democratically elected leader to | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
appoint. It seems are you in favour of this one-third one-third, | :23:38. | :23:40. | |
one-third solution that the members elect a third, the leader chooses a | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
third and the PLP chooses a third? It's an idea that is just emerging | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
and I think I am open to hearing that discussion and engaging with | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
others around that. It gives the opportunity, in my view, for the | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
membership to have a real say in party democracy and I think that's | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
important. Is this a good idea? It's a complete stitch-up between on the | :24:03. | :24:05. | |
Corbynite side, because at the moment as things stand with a huge | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
new membership, the old membership is on the whole less pro-Corbyn with | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
a new membership, they will vote the Corbyn ticket. Claudia was elected, | :24:16. | :24:22. | |
six members by the membership, all of them the straight Corbyn slate, | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
so Corbyn would have a third, he would also control the slate of the | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
other third. The PLP would effectively be outvoted. What's | :24:32. | :24:34. | |
interesting about this is that there is no constitution for the Shadow | :24:35. | :24:36. | |
Cabinet. Once they are sitting around the table decisions are not | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
made there. The reason that so many people walked away from it was that | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
they would have discussions around the table and Jeremy Corbyn would | :24:45. | :24:47. | |
say thank you very much and go away and nothing would be decided and he | :24:48. | :24:50. | |
would do whatever he wanted. There is nothing in the constitution that | :24:51. | :24:52. | |
says the Shadow Cabinet actually matters. I guess if he gets a Shadow | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
Cabinet more to his liking he may end up taking more decisions in it? | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
Possibly. I think he makes his own decisions. In reality, what you saw | :25:01. | :25:06. | |
was when Jeremies could elected this time last year, with an overwhelming | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
mandate, Jeremy opened up the Shadow Cabinet to a wide range of people. | :25:11. | :25:16. | |
People came on board. The idea... But then left. What we saw was a bit | :25:17. | :25:24. | |
of an orchestrated... The big chunk of them left. Was that a vote | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
against the leader or a vote against the democratic membership that | :25:30. | :25:32. | |
elected the leader in the first place? What should they do around | :25:33. | :25:38. | |
the table, if you had Heidi Alexander walking to talk about | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
health policy, other people walk -- wanting to talk and they couldn't | :25:44. | :25:49. | |
get a meeting, so there was no policy, a bit of time of time. But | :25:50. | :25:52. | |
the Shadow Cabinet was clearly useless. These are things we heard. | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
This is all being played out in the public domain, put to the membership | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
again. They've heard all of this. They will make their decision on | :26:03. | :26:05. | |
Saturday. I believe that they will continue to have faith in Jeremy as | :26:06. | :26:08. | |
the leader, despite all that you say and despite all that the | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
parliamentary Labour Party have said. We have got a tripling of the | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
membership, this is all happening under Jeremy Corbyn. Jeremy's drawn | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
a fine line between Labour's policies and where the Conservatives | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
are at. The membership are listening to this and making a clear decision | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
on Saturday and it's behind that sense of unity that I think the | :26:29. | :26:35. | |
Labour Party needs to draw its energy and take that. The Labour | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
Party is, in quote, near terminal meltdown. I think it is. It's really | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
two parties. The old Labour Party and then this huge avalanche of new | :26:46. | :26:48. | |
arrivals who are a completely different party. Of course if we had | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
a sensible electoral system they would be two parties, just as the | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
Tories would long ago have been a pro-Europe and anti-Europe party. We | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
have an electoral system that forces people to say within the two big | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
parties, which is very uncomfortable. At the moment for | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
Labour it really is could habiting divorced couples. These are ordinary | :27:11. | :27:16. | |
people from the stretch of of the country, nurses, these are | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
administrators, these are people doing ordinary jobs from all ages, | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
all diversities, all mixes, joining in for change, for something that | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
reflects change in society. This is a powerful testimony of people | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
coming together and saying that they are fed up with the current | :27:33. | :27:35. | |
political system and they want to see change. They see that hope, that | :27:36. | :27:42. | |
energy in Jeremy. What do you say to poly's point or claim that your | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
party's in near terminal meltdown? I don't think that is the case. What | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
we will see from Saturday is hopefully a sense of unity. The | :27:53. | :27:55. | |
membership will be clear about its decision. Nearly 600,000 members | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
making a very clear decision about who it wants to lead the party. That | :28:01. | :28:08. | |
is a clear standing. What do MPs do? The parliamentary Labour Party will | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
hopefully come behind that sense of unity and that sense of democracy. | :28:13. | :28:15. | |
You know it's not going to. At the end of the day we are a Labour Party | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
that believes in social justice. These are parliamentary Labour Party | :28:20. | :28:22. | |
members that do not want to see a divided party, do not want to see a | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
split. They actually believe in democracy and they will unite behind | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
that. You don't know that. The fact is that a lot of these Labour MPs | :28:33. | :28:40. | |
who are anti-Corbyn, the likelihood is will now face deselection | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
problems. That's plain. Len McCluskey has made it plain. He has | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
a lot of power. Even without being orchestrated, partly because of the | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
happenstance of the boundary changes. Which gives them an | :28:55. | :28:56. | |
opportunity. Gives them an opportunity. There is a lot of | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
momentum going on in the back door of a lot of these MPs. I think they | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
feel they are threatened with deselection. I think they have to | :29:06. | :29:11. | |
between now and then make it quite clear what they actually stand for | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
and I am advocating they should take a strong pro-European position | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
because the Labour Party has simply and scent... Some are saying they | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
will drift back to a Shadow Cabinet under Jeremy Corbyn which shows | :29:28. | :29:29. | |
there could be moves to them supporting him as leader again. Yes, | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
I think some will. Some found it so impossible last time they say they | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
can't. Some will, certainly if the PLP gets to elect most of the - a | :29:40. | :29:45. | |
majority of the members they'll put up enough people. That's not going | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
to happen? You weent want that to happen. These eight-hour meetings, | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
somebody You wouldn't want the PLP to choose a Shadow Cabinet? It would | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
be unjust if it was just the PLP. I think you need to have the leader | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
having a say and the membership having a say and at the end of the | :30:05. | :30:07. | |
day you talk about deselection, there is nobody calling for | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
deselection of hard-working parliamentary Labour Party members. | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
Not Jeremy Corbyn, not any of the leadership of the Labour Party. | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
What about Peter Keil in Brighton? I don't believe that is really what | :30:21. | :30:29. | |
we're talking about? Did you see Channel 4 last night? Come on... You | :30:30. | :30:35. | |
said no one is calling for his deselection, but people were. | :30:36. | :30:45. | |
Channel 4 News is not a credible journalistic... It was hardly | :30:46. | :30:52. | |
credible. A focus on a WL as being the basis of any entry is, this is | :30:53. | :30:59. | |
not... But there was someone calling for Mr Keil to be deselected. The | :31:00. | :31:05. | |
leadership of the party, and the structures that govern the Labour | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
Party, there is no one calling for deselection of anybody. So you would | :31:10. | :31:16. | |
back Mr Keil to stay as the MP for Brighton and Hove? He has the | :31:17. | :31:20. | |
opportunity to put himself... I didn't ask you that. I'm not a | :31:21. | :31:25. | |
member in Brighton and Hove. At the end of the day, I will sit on the | :31:26. | :31:31. | |
Labour Party's NEC. While I am there, I won't advocate deselection | :31:32. | :31:37. | |
and I don't expect anyone else to. We are talking about hard-working | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
Labour MPs, Unity, working together and taking the fight to the Tories, | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
to the Conservatives, and ensuring that we win over on the ardent of | :31:49. | :31:50. | |
anti-austerities. Let's return now to the Liberal | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
Democrat conference, where later today Tim Farron | :31:55. | :31:56. | |
will use his closing speech to unveil a panel of senior doctors | :31:57. | :31:58. | |
and other experts to examine the case for a dedicated | :31:59. | :32:01. | |
NHS and care tax. Here's the party's health spokesman, | :32:02. | :32:03. | |
Norman Lamb, telling conference that the health | :32:04. | :32:05. | |
service needs more money. We live in a country with the 6th | :32:06. | :32:07. | |
largest economy in the world. Yet we are letting | :32:08. | :32:13. | |
people down so badly. Surely we can do better than this | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
but the Government seems Again and again, they claim | :32:19. | :32:20. | |
that they are giving money to the NHS, more | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
so than ever in the past. Treat these claims | :32:26. | :32:28. | |
with extreme caution. And Norman Lamb joins | :32:29. | :32:36. | |
us now from Brighton. Norman Lamb, you want to raise taxes | :32:37. | :32:47. | |
to pay for health and social care - which taxes will you raise and by | :32:48. | :32:53. | |
how much? I am asking this expert panel to look, and I think it is a | :32:54. | :32:59. | |
sensible way to develop policy, to get health economists, others with | :33:00. | :33:04. | |
an expert knowledge of the NHS to work together to advise the party, | :33:05. | :33:07. | |
but we are asking them to look at the case for a dedicated health care | :33:08. | :33:13. | |
tax which would be shown on your pay packet, and my view is that health | :33:14. | :33:20. | |
and care are, in a way, unique in terms of public services in that | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
demand just keeps rising inexorably every year, by 4% across the | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
developed world. There is a real case for carving it out. You end the | :33:29. | :33:32. | |
distortion of spending in other areas of Government spending as well | :33:33. | :33:36. | |
by carving it out and dealing with it separately. Then there is the | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
case of whether you need to increase it. You would have a separate | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
hypothecated tax that would go towards paying for health and social | :33:46. | :33:52. | |
care. How much would it be? Would it be 1p on national insurance, on | :33:53. | :33:58. | |
income tax or what? We know that 1p on income tax or national insurance | :33:59. | :34:04. | |
will raise ?4 billion ?5 billion, something in that range. Certainly, | :34:05. | :34:08. | |
that amount extra at the moment would make a massive difference to | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
the sustainability of our health and care system. So that is what you | :34:14. | :34:19. | |
would go for? Yes. The argument I am making is, let's look at the design | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
of a dedicated tax. You could base it... Frank Field has argued this, | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
that it should be based on national insurance. You would then need to | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
look at whether you need to make it more progressive. You would need to | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
make sure it is fair between generations but ultimately, it could | :34:39. | :34:41. | |
form the basis of a hypothecated tax. The argument is that if people | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
could see where their money is going on this, they may be prepared to pay | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
a bit more, if it is clear that the system needs more money. Before, | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
under Labour, there was more money for the health service, but it | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
wasn't hypothecated in quite that way, which meant that some of the | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
money did not go towards health. Exactly, and Frank Field makes that | :35:02. | :35:03. | |
point. The NHS in England is facing a ?22 | :35:04. | :35:20. | |
billion gap in its finances by 2020, so if you're only talking about ?4 | :35:21. | :35:22. | |
billion being raised on national insurance, it won't go that far. Why | :35:23. | :35:25. | |
not be bolder in opposition? That is why I have asked the expert panel to | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
look at this. The public are crying out for politicians to be straight | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
and to tell people what the scale of the problem is. There has been a | :35:36. | :35:39. | |
conspiracy of silence about health and care funding. No party wants to | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
admit how dire the situation is. No party at the last election came up | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
with a solution to this problem. Including yours. Absolutely, I am | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
saying that. And yet everyone within the system recognises that the | :35:55. | :36:03. | |
situation now is dire and it will have real consequences for human | :36:04. | :36:05. | |
beings. I put it to you that the reason is because it is not | :36:06. | :36:07. | |
palatable politically. I don't know, but maybe people don't want to pay | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
more than 1p extra on National Insurance to pay for extra money | :36:12. | :36:17. | |
going into the health service. I think you're right. The consensus | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
over many years has been, don't talk about extra tax, only talk about | :36:22. | :36:27. | |
cutting tax. But there is also, we know, an enormous sort of affection | :36:28. | :36:31. | |
for the NHS, but their results are a recognition that every family relies | :36:32. | :36:39. | |
at moment of need on a very well organised and effectively | :36:40. | :36:42. | |
functioning health system and care system. Is there any evidence that | :36:43. | :36:47. | |
the public want to pay for this? That is the question. Beyond getting | :36:48. | :36:53. | |
this panel to advise the party on our policy-making, I've also called, | :36:54. | :36:59. | |
along with Liz Kendall and Dan Poulter yesterday, a form of -- a | :37:00. | :37:05. | |
former Conservative minister, the three of us have come together to | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
urge Theresa May to set up a cross-party commission to engage the | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
public on these critical, once-in-a-lifetime questions. I have | :37:15. | :37:17. | |
talked to the Institute for Government for this. It has been | :37:18. | :37:23. | |
done in the last decade with pensions, and by establishing a | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
process that binds in all the parties, a solution was developed | :37:28. | :37:30. | |
which we legislated for. We need the same process for health. Your | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
thoughts, Polly Toynbee, because it has been dismissed by the Government | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
and even Labour voices like Margaret Hodge, who says there is a lot of | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
waste and if we got rid of that, we would not have to raise this sort of | :37:44. | :37:46. | |
money that Norman Lamb was talking about. She has been brilliant and | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
incisive about picking up bits of waste, but I think everyone | :37:53. | :37:55. | |
recognises that the health service is severely underfunded and there | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
has to be some mechanism by which the public does, as Norman Lamb | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
suggests, if they really care about the health service, which the polls | :38:06. | :38:08. | |
show they do, there has to be a method for paying for it. I think a | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
Royal commission would be an excellent idea. I think there is see | :38:13. | :38:15. | |
Roe chance of the Tories doing it. They brought in the Lansley act, | :38:16. | :38:20. | |
which the Lib Dems voted for, at last. They brought in a budget that | :38:21. | :38:26. | |
cut the NHS spending as never before. And the Lib Dems were part | :38:27. | :38:31. | |
of that. I know they regret it now, but it is a shame. Let's talk about | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
the merging of health and social care, as Andy Burnham has talked | :38:37. | :38:39. | |
about. How would that work? There is a central grant that goes to | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
councils and they decide how much is spent on care. Are you saying that | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
within the NHS budget more of that should go to social care? I am | :38:49. | :38:54. | |
arguing that we have to have a unified health and care system. If | :38:55. | :38:56. | |
you think about it from the patient's point of view, it is | :38:57. | :39:01. | |
ridiculous that it is split down the middle. Too often, quite vulnerable | :39:02. | :39:05. | |
people fall through the cracks in the system between organisations, | :39:06. | :39:11. | |
and we have this crazy situation of two lots of people commissioning | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
services in every locality. Let's just recognise that there is a | :39:16. | :39:20. | |
continue here between health and care, and that the whole system | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
ought to be focusing much more on preventing ill-health and preventing | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
deterioration of health. Get all the incentives in the system aligned and | :39:29. | :39:31. | |
have one pot of money. That would save money and it would make more | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
efficient use of resources. But I think, you know, we need to organise | :39:37. | :39:40. | |
things in localities. We shouldn't have a top-down service. But that | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
does sound like what you are proposing. You are centralising | :39:47. | :39:49. | |
something that has been decentralised. I think you were the | :39:50. | :39:55. | |
party of local decisions. No, not at all. I think it is important to have | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
very clear national standards about your right of access. One of the | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
things I have campaigned for for many years and introduced as a | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
minister is the first maximum waiting time standards in mental | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
health. So, wherever you live in the country, you should know that the | :40:13. | :40:15. | |
National Health Service will give you access to good, evidence -based | :40:16. | :40:20. | |
treatment on a timely basis. You can then allow every area to design | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
services to meet the needs of that locality, subject to those national | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
standards which everyone should abide by. That seems perfectly | :40:29. | :40:31. | |
consistent. Norman Lamb, thank you very much. | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
What could Brexit mean for the airline industry? | :40:36. | :40:37. | |
Well, there were warnings during the referendum that a vote | :40:38. | :40:39. | |
to leave might affect the cost of cheap flights to Europe. | :40:40. | :40:42. | |
But, as you'll have realised by now, along with most things to do | :40:43. | :40:45. | |
with Brexit, the reality is a little more complicated. | :40:46. | :40:47. | |
Take a look on the website flightradar and you | :40:48. | :40:54. | |
will see some of the two million-plus take-offs and landings | :40:55. | :40:56. | |
It is an industry regulated in a big way by | :40:57. | :41:00. | |
A group of airlines and airport operators had a meeting with | :41:01. | :41:05. | |
Chris Grayling the Transport Secretary here at the Department for | :41:06. | :41:07. | |
Transport during the summer holidays. | :41:08. | :41:10. | |
Top of their wish list is | :41:11. | :41:11. | |
access to the EU's single market in aviation. | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
I understand easyJet would | :41:16. | :41:18. | |
like a deal where any UK-based airline could fly from any European | :41:19. | :41:21. | |
city to any other European city, as they can do now. | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
And they want a deal done as soon as possible. | :41:26. | :41:28. | |
Maybe even separate from the main Brexit | :41:29. | :41:29. | |
Transatlantic carriers like Virgin are also concerned about | :41:30. | :41:35. | |
what happens to the EU's agreement with the US, | :41:36. | :41:37. | |
which allows European airlines to fly to American cities. | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
Will Brexit Britain have to negotiate its own treaty with | :41:42. | :41:44. | |
Aviation lawyers say deals will have to be done | :41:45. | :41:51. | |
position to fall back on, like the World Trade | :41:52. | :41:54. | |
Organisation provides for | :41:55. | :41:57. |