19/09/2016 Daily Politics


19/09/2016

Jo Coburn examines the debate over hard or soft Brexit and the Labour leadership battle. Plus a look at how the government is doing at meeting its pledges.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 19/09/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:38.:00:40.

David Cameron wanted the Conservative Party to "stop

:00:41.:00:42.

And we all know what happened to him.

:00:43.:00:46.

Now Theresa May is starting to feel the pressure

:00:47.:00:48.

The Prime Minister is facing calls from Eurosceptic Conservative MPs

:00:49.:00:57.

for a so-called "hard Brexit", demanding Britain quits the single

:00:58.:00:59.

market and scraps EU free movement rules.

:01:00.:01:08.

Meanwhile, the Liberal Democrats approve their Leader's call

:01:09.:01:12.

to campaign for a second referendum on any Brexit deal.

:01:13.:01:18.

Tim Farron says he respects the Brexit result but says the public

:01:19.:01:21.

needs more of a say. Protestors in Westminster demand

:01:22.:01:25.

more aid for migrants But the Prime Minister calls

:01:26.:01:27.

for a shake up of international rules on refugees as she heads

:01:28.:01:31.

to New York to discuss Jeremy Corbyn is odds on to reclaim

:01:32.:01:33.

the Labour leadership. He says he wants to extend an olive

:01:34.:01:37.

branch to his critics. But will peace ever reign

:01:38.:01:40.

in the party again? And with us for the whole programme

:01:41.:01:49.

today is the Guardian columnist, First today, the Prime Minister

:01:50.:01:54.

is calling for a shake up Theresa May says countries should

:01:55.:01:59.

enforce a "First Safe Country" rule under which refugees must be

:02:00.:02:04.

settled in the first Such an approach would bar

:02:05.:02:07.

other European countries from allowing migrants to travel

:02:08.:02:11.

on through Europe to Britain. Mrs May is attending a major

:02:12.:02:16.

United Nations summit in New York, which is taking place amid tightened

:02:17.:02:19.

security following a bomb blast Activists have turned Parliament

:02:20.:02:22.

Square into a life jacket graveyard to highlight the damgers

:02:23.:02:43.

for migrants crossing the sea we had a Dublin agreement. If you

:02:44.:02:54.

are going to do it like that, you have to reach agreement as to what

:02:55.:02:57.

then happens to the migrants. The first country they reach will beat

:02:58.:03:02.

Greece or Italy. We cannot rationally say Greece and Italy have

:03:03.:03:08.

to take everybody. There is no basis in fairness, in reason, in anything

:03:09.:03:13.

to make a rule like that. Is the principal bright in terms of basic

:03:14.:03:21.

thrust? It is an administrative layer for a compromise agreement.

:03:22.:03:25.

The administrative layer where afterwards countries will negotiate

:03:26.:03:30.

about who goes where. The UNHCR still has hotspots where people in

:03:31.:03:34.

dire need will be distributed to a country, depending on where they

:03:35.:03:38.

have existing family, where their skills are needed, that kind of

:03:39.:03:47.

thing. You get a hot spot in Lesbos. All people in Syria will be sent to

:03:48.:03:52.

that hotspot. That system works well but it only works well if countries

:03:53.:03:55.

are cooperating and they are taking their fair share of refugees. Do you

:03:56.:04:00.

think it was because the focus was on Greece and Italy for many of the

:04:01.:04:04.

migrants and refugees who are coming from the Middle East or Africa?

:04:05.:04:09.

There are other parts of the world that could perform that duty. Many

:04:10.:04:13.

of the migrants fleeing Iraq could not necessarily be hitting those

:04:14.:04:19.

countries first, but others. That is a dead duck, that argument. Already,

:04:20.:04:23.

if you look at the number of refugees Europe has taken compared

:04:24.:04:27.

with the rest of the world, it is minuscule. Africa has taken a huge

:04:28.:04:31.

number of refugees. The Middle East is taking a huge number of refugees.

:04:32.:04:35.

They are taking millions and millions of people every year. What

:04:36.:04:40.

we are saying is, we're basically having a tacit situation at the

:04:41.:04:44.

moment where we are allowing countries without economic resources

:04:45.:04:49.

to bear a huge amount of the burden. We are not stepping in at all. She's

:04:50.:04:55.

also an argument we need to distinguish even more forcefully the

:04:56.:04:58.

difference between economic migrants. Those seeking a better

:04:59.:05:03.

life, and those genuinely seeking persecution. Let's take the example

:05:04.:05:08.

of Syrian refugees. It would increase public sympathy and public

:05:09.:05:11.

support for the genuine refugees. Does she have a point? This is a

:05:12.:05:17.

rhetorical switch on her part. The point is, we already have in place

:05:18.:05:24.

differences between genuine asylum seekers and economic migrants.

:05:25.:05:32.

Passage is so dangerous by vote. It is perilous. If you're talking back

:05:33.:05:36.

economic migrants in that situation when you're talking about people

:05:37.:05:39.

getting onto a vote rather than face starvation. That is probably as

:05:40.:05:45.

legitimate to leaving rather than facing prosecution. In Lesbos, the

:05:46.:05:50.

word had gone around among refugees that people were taking Syrians and

:05:51.:05:54.

not Afghans. The Afghans, when they came in, would pretend to be Syrian,

:05:55.:06:01.

or... A guy showed me his bullet wounds he was so frightened of being

:06:02.:06:05.

thought and economic migrant that he had to show the kind of physical

:06:06.:06:09.

torture he had had at the hands of the Taliban, as it happened. This is

:06:10.:06:14.

appalling. It is so inhuman that people arrive and think that is not

:06:15.:06:19.

what we need, to see actual wounds before we respond to them as human

:06:20.:06:22.

beings for the bid is really appalling but when you look at the

:06:23.:06:25.

wording of the refugee Convention and deactivate -- aspirations we had

:06:26.:06:30.

to help and how far we are falling short of it, it is extraordinary.

:06:31.:06:36.

Now, do you like your Brexit hard or soft?

:06:37.:06:38.

It's the question on everyone's lips.

:06:39.:06:40.

Well, it is in this studio at any rate.

:06:41.:06:42.

In the absence of any concrete details about which tack

:06:43.:06:44.

the Government will take when it comes to negotiating our exit

:06:45.:06:47.

from the EU and the nature of our relationship after that,

:06:48.:06:49.

two broadly competing visions are beginning to emerge.

:06:50.:06:52.

A new campaign group, Leave Means Leave, are calling

:06:53.:06:54.

for a hard Brexit, cluding leaving the single market and ending

:06:55.:06:58.

The group includes a number of leading Conservative

:06:59.:07:07.

Eurosceptics, such as former Justice Minister Dominic Raab

:07:08.:07:09.

and former Environment Secretary Owen Paterson.

:07:10.:07:11.

Leave Means Leave say that remaining in the single market

:07:12.:07:13.

will pull our political and economic focus towards the world's

:07:14.:07:16.

On the other side, Open Britain, the successor to the

:07:17.:07:23.

Stronger In campaign, are calling for the UK to remain

:07:24.:07:28.

They also want to mend not end free movement,

:07:29.:07:34.

with an EU-wide debate on how the system works.

:07:35.:07:38.

Speaking for Open Britain, Tory MP Anna Soubry said leaving

:07:39.:07:41.

the EU without a trade deal was the biggest

:07:42.:07:47.

Debates around what Brexit might look like are taking place

:07:48.:07:51.

as the head of Germany's central bank Jens Weidman warned

:07:52.:07:53.

that Britain's banks would lose their passport rights

:07:54.:07:55.

These allow firms to operate across the EU without separate licenses.

:07:56.:08:04.

We're joined now by the Deputy Editor of

:08:05.:08:06.

Welcome to the Daily Politics. The Bundesbank president has said the

:08:07.:08:19.

city will suffer if the UK leads the single market. Is he right? It

:08:20.:08:24.

depends. That's not forget, for a start, all these people are actors

:08:25.:08:30.

in a political struggle. They are about to enter negotiations and

:08:31.:08:33.

everyone is trying to depict a set of threats to try to modify the

:08:34.:08:38.

outcome. It is important for the city to have access, trading access,

:08:39.:08:42.

to the single market. There is more than one way to achieve that, one

:08:43.:08:46.

way through passport images what he is referring to. That is licensed to

:08:47.:08:51.

sell financial services to the rest of the EU. There is another

:08:52.:08:55.

alternative, equivalence, and maybe a third way. We do know what the

:08:56.:09:00.

actual legal possible it is that currently exist are at the moment.

:09:01.:09:04.

He is right in one respect. The city could lose out from all of this.

:09:05.:09:08.

That is why negotiators have to be very careful. They need to be

:09:09.:09:14.

careful to maintain trade access and financial services. You are saying

:09:15.:09:20.

in a sense he is right? I am not saying that. I am saying there is a

:09:21.:09:28.

Brexit -- a danger that Brexit needs to begin ducted in the correct way.

:09:29.:09:34.

Are the passport rights tied to the single market? Yes, in a sense if

:09:35.:09:41.

you want current passport in mechanism you need to be part of the

:09:42.:09:48.

EIA. That is under the current system. On the other hand, they are

:09:49.:09:52.

moving towards a system that third-party countries could have a

:09:53.:09:56.

form of passport ink in the next couple of years. That may avoid the

:09:57.:10:00.

need to be part of the single market. That is why these things are

:10:01.:10:07.

uncertain. The City needs to put its own perspective on theirs. We need

:10:08.:10:11.

to know exactly what they think the options are that would allow them to

:10:12.:10:16.

have access. I think we should not listen to much to the people like

:10:17.:10:20.

the Bundesbank who are trying to put the most negative gloss on all of

:10:21.:10:26.

this. That is true. He has a vested interest in wanting to see banks and

:10:27.:10:32.

other operations leading London and going to Frankfurt. As you said that

:10:33.:10:34.

there needs to be a new negotiation full as it stands at the moment, the

:10:35.:10:43.

City's sporting rights would be lost. We could have something else

:10:44.:10:48.

called equivalence, which may be identical. We do not know because it

:10:49.:10:57.

has not been tested yet. This may largely be a non-issue but we are

:10:58.:11:01.

not sure yet. This is a reason why it all of this is quite complicated.

:11:02.:11:05.

It is very important we stuck to hear more from the Government about

:11:06.:11:15.

how exactly they want to continue with these negotiations. There will

:11:16.:11:19.

be costs and benefits to any benefit. The Government's job is to

:11:20.:11:27.

maximise the benefits and reduce the downsides. If the Bundesbank

:11:28.:11:31.

president is saying banks will be stripped of their ability to conduct

:11:32.:11:35.

business across... He does not know that. That is what he is saying. The

:11:36.:11:42.

have established he has a vested interest. If he is saying that, and

:11:43.:11:45.

he will be considered by banks as someone to listen to. Isn't that the

:11:46.:11:52.

risk that, in this interim period, banks relocate some of the

:11:53.:11:56.

affiliated operations elsewhere? There is a risk. What is happening

:11:57.:12:01.

at the moment seems to be the asked DUP offices in Ireland and

:12:02.:12:12.

Luxembourg, smallish offices. -- scooping. They may have signed

:12:13.:12:18.

leases, we do not know that yet. That may be sufficient to stay in

:12:19.:12:22.

London and continue to operate across the EU. We do not know if

:12:23.:12:26.

they could be brass plated offices. That is a possibility. It is true

:12:27.:12:31.

the banks are very nervous. It is true that corporate Britain remains

:12:32.:12:34.

quite nervous, quite a lot less nervous than it was in the immediate

:12:35.:12:39.

aftermath of the referendum. Confidence has come back largely. A

:12:40.:12:43.

lot of people are nervous about as white as important for the

:12:44.:12:46.

Government to be more explicit the way they want to go in all of this.

:12:47.:12:51.

To discuss this further, I'm joined by the Labour MP

:12:52.:12:53.

Chuka Umunna who's backing the Open Britain campaign

:12:54.:12:55.

group and the Conservative MP and former Defence Minister

:12:56.:12:57.

Gerald Howarth who is backing Leave Means Leave.

:12:58.:13:01.

Gerald, what exactly in your mind is hard Brexit? Hard Brexit is a term

:13:02.:13:11.

which you in the media have streamed up. Essentially, what is at issue

:13:12.:13:16.

here, those who feel it will need to take a long time in order to take

:13:17.:13:22.

every box, to cross every tee and. Every eye, and those of us who

:13:23.:13:27.

believe we need to accelerate this process and ensure that certainly by

:13:28.:13:32.

the timetable set by the Prime Minister, namely the beginning of

:13:33.:13:39.

next year, the United Kingdom activates Article 53 begin the

:13:40.:13:43.

two-year process of exiting. You want to leave the EU as soon as

:13:44.:13:50.

possible, without having secured any sort of deal with the European Union

:13:51.:13:53.

in terms of whether or not we remain part of the single market? Well,

:13:54.:14:00.

there is a legal issue here, which Liam Fox has referred to. Namely

:14:01.:14:07.

that we aren't debarred from negotiating trade deals with anybody

:14:08.:14:12.

else until such time as we have left the European union. What we are

:14:13.:14:17.

trying to do is get as much agreement as we can before we invoke

:14:18.:14:23.

Article 57 know where any difficulties will lie between us and

:14:24.:14:30.

our European friends. -- 50, so we know. Many of us in Parliament are

:14:31.:14:34.

under pressure from constituents saying, we voted to leave the

:14:35.:14:37.

European Union and we want to see action happening. The Government

:14:38.:14:41.

cannot just activate it because there were no plans by the previous

:14:42.:14:45.

government in place when we voted on the 23rd of June. What do you say to

:14:46.:14:52.

that? A speedy process is what the majority of people voted for. A

:14:53.:14:58.

quick X it from the EU. It would be foolish to rush to invoke Article

:14:59.:15:07.

50. I am not saying we should take as long as we possibly can but

:15:08.:15:13.

people massively underestimate the gargantuan task involved. It is not

:15:14.:15:17.

just about invoking Article 50, which starts the two-year

:15:18.:15:19.

negotiation process for our withdrawal. It is question are

:15:20.:15:23.

making all the legislative changes to give effect to that. The 1972

:15:24.:15:29.

European Community 's act... That can be done in a day. You can

:15:30.:15:34.

overturn it. You make it sound easy but Gerald and I have done the whole

:15:35.:15:38.

thing we have legislation ping-pong in between the two Houses of

:15:39.:15:41.

Parliament. It takes a long time and is an important piece of

:15:42.:15:45.

legislation. There are lots of other pieces of legislation. If you look

:15:46.:15:49.

in the field of employment rights, there are number of rights at work

:15:50.:15:54.

that people have, your right to paid time off. That is once the act has

:15:55.:16:01.

been repealed. Let's give the a few steps. Sign up you will need UK

:16:02.:16:04.

legislation to plug the gaps. Practically speaking, as fast as

:16:05.:16:07.

people would like to do this guy it will take some time.

:16:08.:16:12.

The broad differences whether we remain a member of the single

:16:13.:16:18.

market. You are pushing for us to remain a member of the single market

:16:19.:16:21.

and you are pushing for free movement, but that is no different

:16:22.:16:26.

to being in the EU. I have that I think Theresa May should be

:16:27.:16:32.

ambitious and she should prove leave and remain campaign is wrong. Her

:16:33.:16:37.

ambition, yes, we should stay a member of the single market while

:16:38.:16:40.

respecting people's voice which was expressed away the -- around the way

:16:41.:16:51.

free movement operates. I think we can stay members of the single

:16:52.:16:54.

market and getting the reform to live with the immigration changes

:16:55.:16:59.

that come with that. Is that desirable, to stay a member of the

:17:00.:17:02.

single market and keep the benefits that come with that if we can in

:17:03.:17:05.

some way amend the freedom of movement? When people talk about the

:17:06.:17:12.

single market, what they are talking about is essentially the European

:17:13.:17:16.

single market, under which you accept free movement of people, and

:17:17.:17:22.

you accept, lock stock and barrel, right across industry and commerce,

:17:23.:17:26.

all the rules applied by the European Union. What we are looking

:17:27.:17:30.

for is a free trade agreement, like the rest of the world has got. The

:17:31.:17:35.

idea that you have got to have free movement of people, that you have

:17:36.:17:40.

got to accept these rules and regulations, is absurd. United

:17:41.:17:43.

States and China are not members of the single market and yet they trade

:17:44.:17:51.

with the EU. Can I pick up on the point Gerald is making? What I am

:17:52.:17:57.

saying, Gerald, is let the Prime Minister aim to maintain access to

:17:58.:18:00.

the single market and not have the free movement in the form we have at

:18:01.:18:04.

the moment. She can argue to the Germans, who have a general election

:18:05.:18:08.

next year, and the French next year, and in Italy the year after, look,

:18:09.:18:14.

you have the same debate around the way free movement operates, whether

:18:15.:18:17.

it is fair to people and whether it helps the labour market or not. They

:18:18.:18:21.

are going to have that debate as well so I think she has a big moment

:18:22.:18:25.

here where she can do what no other European leader has achieved. And it

:18:26.:18:29.

is not just a question of tariff free trade. What you get for your

:18:30.:18:39.

membership of the market our rights and protections, and by being a

:18:40.:18:42.

member of it we can impact on those rules. Go on? You are quite right,

:18:43.:18:51.

of course, we have a block of EU legislation, a huge amount of EU

:18:52.:18:56.

legislation, which you and I know is passed more or less tick box by

:18:57.:19:00.

Parliament because it has been decided in Brussels and the European

:19:01.:19:03.

Parliament, so we have got to accept it lock stock and barrel. When we

:19:04.:19:08.

leave, all we need to do is accept every bit of EU legislation that is

:19:09.:19:12.

already on the statute book. Legislation applying to employee

:19:13.:19:17.

rights and to the environment. We accept all that. And then if a

:19:18.:19:21.

future government decides in the UK that we want to unpick some of it,

:19:22.:19:27.

we want to change it to meet our own circumstances in the UK, then we can

:19:28.:19:31.

do that over a period of time through our own sovereign

:19:32.:19:34.

Parliament, which is the people do not like it, they can remove it and

:19:35.:19:37.

change the government of this country, which at the moment you

:19:38.:19:41.

cannot do. We have just had the discussion with Allister Heath and

:19:42.:19:49.

you have heard the comments from the Bundesbank President that London

:19:50.:19:51.

banks will automatically lose their right to passport across the EU if

:19:52.:19:54.

Britain leaves the single market. Do you not think that is a negative

:19:55.:20:00.

consequence? That is a matter for negotiation. As I understand it,

:20:01.:20:04.

many of the banks have already got brass plates in other European

:20:05.:20:08.

countries. I think the international financial community will vote very

:20:09.:20:13.

firmly that Britain is a great place in which to be based, and they will

:20:14.:20:19.

want the government of Germany, to which the Bundesbank is answerable,

:20:20.:20:23.

they will want that government to make sure that this is accommodated.

:20:24.:20:28.

But this will be up for negotiation. Why should they accommodate it?

:20:29.:20:35.

Because I think there will be an enormous amount of pressure on them

:20:36.:20:38.

so to do because otherwise we get into the business of retaliation.

:20:39.:20:42.

Germany exports hundreds of thousands of cars to the United

:20:43.:20:45.

Kingdom and we also export for example Minis from BMW from the UK

:20:46.:20:54.

to the continent. We don't want to get into a trade war and the reason

:20:55.:20:58.

we don't want to and they don't want to get into a trade war is because

:20:59.:21:03.

they export ?70 billion more to us than we export to them. They would

:21:04.:21:08.

be cutting off their own noses to spite their faces. Is it possible,

:21:09.:21:13.

really, realistically, to have access, to be a member of the single

:21:14.:21:18.

market and in some way amend freedom of movement? There are so many

:21:19.:21:24.

strange coming that I cannot even process them! The idea that because

:21:25.:21:29.

people buy BMWs means people will not do anything punitive to our

:21:30.:21:32.

banks is ridiculous. Then we would be talking about a mass boycott

:21:33.:21:36.

among citizens to boycott cars so that the banks survive. I don't

:21:37.:21:40.

think half of the people who voted Leave would do that for the banks.

:21:41.:21:44.

But it is tit-for-tat. They don't want to do anything that would

:21:45.:21:49.

provoke retaliation for us. But the point is we can't retaliate, except

:21:50.:22:00.

as consumers. We have very little leverage. The idea that the consumer

:22:01.:22:03.

power would offset the weakness of our hand at the negotiating table is

:22:04.:22:05.

preposterous. It is not consumer power, it is governments dealing

:22:06.:22:07.

with it, and the British government will not sacrifice the City. I think

:22:08.:22:13.

the point that Zoe is making... Hang on! They are a much bigger customer

:22:14.:22:25.

to us. 47% of goods go to them, than we are to them. So Zoe is right.

:22:26.:22:30.

Don't be cavalier about the importance of the single market. The

:22:31.:22:34.

Japanese government has companies that employ 140,000 people and they

:22:35.:22:38.

say maintaining membership of the single market is crucial for those

:22:39.:22:43.

jobs. It is jobs we are talking about, people's livelihoods. Thank

:22:44.:22:44.

you very much. Now, while we're on the subject

:22:45.:22:46.

of Brexit, the Liberal Democrats have voted in favour of holding

:22:47.:22:49.

a referendum on any eventual deal the Government comes forward

:22:50.:22:52.

with on the withdrawal of the UK The party's leader Tim Farron says

:22:53.:22:55.

a further referendum is vital, but are all party supporters

:22:56.:23:02.

behind their leader on this one or do they think

:23:03.:23:04.

the public has spoken? We sent Adam down to Brighton

:23:05.:23:06.

to test the mood at conference. Welcome to the first mood box of the

:23:07.:23:15.

Lib Dem party conference in Brighton. Today we are going to ask

:23:16.:23:20.

about the EU referendum. Is it done or should we have another one?

:23:21.:23:29.

Yes, I think there needs to be another referendum simply because we

:23:30.:23:35.

don't know what kind of Brexit people voted for. Have another one.

:23:36.:23:39.

We have got to accept the democratic decisions are just get on with it.

:23:40.:23:43.

It is done. The government are refusing to tell us what Brexit

:23:44.:23:47.

actually mean that when they do I think the public should have a say.

:23:48.:23:53.

So another one. People have made their decisions and the Liberal

:23:54.:23:57.

Democrats need to accept that. This is better than the Tim Farron Q and

:23:58.:24:05.

A. EU referendum, have another one? Another one, but it have to be a

:24:06.:24:11.

different one, on the terms of exit. Should people just get real? I think

:24:12.:24:15.

we need the best deal possible but we don't need another referendum. It

:24:16.:24:21.

should be another different one. She has taken a long time to think about

:24:22.:24:25.

it but luckily she has a couple of years before it becomes an issue.

:24:26.:24:33.

What does it mean? Have another EU referendum or it is done? Well, it

:24:34.:24:42.

is not a yes - no situation. We will have trouble if we don't have

:24:43.:24:47.

another one because Brexit is bad. Did your dad tell you to say that?

:24:48.:24:56.

No! You are squeezing that ball! I feel very strongly. We don't know

:24:57.:24:59.

what the deal is. We didn't know before the referendum and we don't

:25:00.:25:04.

know now. Cockroaches are the only things that survive. The Lib Dems

:25:05.:25:08.

are cockroaches because we would survive.

:25:09.:25:13.

Virtual reality comes to the Lib Dem conference. I am actually putting it

:25:14.:25:21.

into that one, which says it is done, because clearly the electorate

:25:22.:25:29.

has spoken. Are you still there? The British public will decide whether

:25:30.:25:33.

we should stay in the EU or not. They already have. No, they have

:25:34.:25:37.

decided they want the government to negotiate a Brexit deal and we will

:25:38.:25:41.

see what the deal is. My biggest fear is that Nick Clegg is standing

:25:42.:25:47.

there making a funny face at me! You are not an MP any more, you can say

:25:48.:25:49.

whatever you want! Well, you can't get much more

:25:50.:26:04.

conclusive than that. And an absolutely huge majority of Lib Dems

:26:05.:26:09.

want another referendum, but not the old one again, different one. Fairly

:26:10.:26:11.

emphatic there. Earlier I spoke to the Lib Dem

:26:12.:26:15.

Leader, Tim Farron, in Brighton. Vince Cable, the party's

:26:16.:26:19.

former Deputy Leader, says a second referendum isn't

:26:20.:26:21.

a panacea to anything. We are in a hideous mess

:26:22.:26:23.

as a country at the moment. The referendum result in June,

:26:24.:26:27.

which I fully respect, The relationship with the single

:26:28.:26:29.

market, with a package that involves some form of free movement

:26:30.:26:35.

for British people overseas and vice versa, relationship

:26:36.:26:38.

with the police forces We don't know what deal

:26:39.:26:41.

is going to be imposed on the British people,

:26:42.:26:48.

and imposed is the key word. We began this process with democracy

:26:49.:26:52.

in June, and it looks like we're going to end

:26:53.:26:54.

up with a stitch-up, with Theresa May, David Davis,

:26:55.:26:57.

and Brussels bureaucrats, between them, in an enclosed space,

:26:58.:26:59.

coming up with a plan The only way to finish this job

:27:00.:27:01.

properly is to give the people their say

:27:02.:27:08.

and let them take control. You say you respect the outcome

:27:09.:27:10.

of the first referendum but, listening to you there,

:27:11.:27:13.

it looks like you are looking for a way to kill

:27:14.:27:15.

the first referendum. You let the cat out of the bag

:27:16.:27:17.

to some extent yesterday when you said a further, or second,

:27:18.:27:20.

referendum was the best Of course I have not

:27:21.:27:23.

changed my views or my principles. There are people who blow

:27:24.:27:30.

with the wind when a vote I utterly respect the result

:27:31.:27:33.

and the many people, We are looking at something

:27:34.:27:37.

which is beyond the 23rd June and something which I think

:27:38.:27:49.

people of all persuasions, politically and in terms

:27:50.:27:52.

of the referendum just it would be utterly despicable

:27:53.:27:54.

for this Conservative government to impose on the British people

:27:55.:27:59.

a deal that nobody voted for. Let's assume you were a business

:28:00.:28:03.

person in London, or here in Brighton, or up in the Lakes,

:28:04.:28:06.

in my neck of the woods, who voted to leave because you didn't

:28:07.:28:10.

like the EU but you wanted, you assumed, because you were told

:28:11.:28:13.

this would be so, you would be And suddenly you end up

:28:14.:28:16.

with tariffs on your exports, tariffs on what you are having

:28:17.:28:20.

to import, and you're Those people deserve the right

:28:21.:28:23.

to vote on the deal, It is nobody's fault,

:28:24.:28:27.

other than the Conservative government, I should say,

:28:28.:28:32.

that there was utter lack of clarity over what would happen

:28:33.:28:34.

if we were to leave. I don't blame

:28:35.:28:37.

the 52% but I blame David Cameron, George Osborne and Theresa May

:28:38.:28:39.

for there being no clarity. But now we are in this situation,

:28:40.:28:46.

a deal is going to be stitched up, and that deal must not just be

:28:47.:28:49.

a matter for British politicians in Whitehall and civil servants

:28:50.:28:53.

and indeed Brussels bureaucrats. You are saying a deal

:28:54.:28:55.

will be stitched up. There is no sign of it

:28:56.:28:59.

being stitched up. It was the case that people said

:29:00.:29:01.

they wanted to leave Will mean

:29:02.:29:04.

leaving the single market too. You used to campaign

:29:05.:29:13.

for an in/out referendum. Now we've had it, you seem

:29:14.:29:15.

to want to reverse it, or at least to tell people what sort

:29:16.:29:18.

of new relationship That doesn't sound very

:29:19.:29:20.

liberal or democratic. No, it's exactly

:29:21.:29:23.

liberal and democratic. What is undemocratic is the thought

:29:24.:29:26.

that this government can make assumptions as to

:29:27.:29:29.

what the 52% meant. You're making assumptions

:29:30.:29:30.

about what they meant. I am saying the British people,

:29:31.:29:33.

52% of them, voted to leave. What's not clear, and it's

:29:34.:29:40.

not their fault it's not clear, that we don't know what

:29:41.:29:46.

we're going to do next. We don't know what the plan is,

:29:47.:29:48.

you don't know what the plan is, the British people don't

:29:49.:29:52.

know what the plan is. I am really strongly suspecting

:29:53.:29:55.

that Theresa May doesn't Given that 52% of people voted

:29:56.:29:57.

to leave, and the assumption that you made that they all wanted

:29:58.:30:01.

to leave the single market, I didn't say all, I said some people

:30:02.:30:04.

might want to leave the Some people voted because they

:30:05.:30:08.

wanted to control migration. Some people voted because they just

:30:09.:30:16.

didn't like the EU and thought Some people voted because they

:30:17.:30:19.

didn't like the single market. Others thought, leaving the EU

:30:20.:30:23.

is one thing but being able to trade with Europe freely without tax

:30:24.:30:26.

or tariffs, which was one of the things promised

:30:27.:30:28.

by the League campaign, -- the Leave campaign,

:30:29.:30:37.

is something that lots of people who voted to leave

:30:38.:30:40.

believed was the case. How on earth can it be

:30:41.:30:42.

right and democratic for our Conservative government,

:30:43.:30:45.

in its botched and messy renegotiation at the moment,

:30:46.:30:47.

how can it be right for them to come back to the British people,

:30:48.:30:50.

after we started with democracy in June, and end up with a stitch-up

:30:51.:30:52.

when a deal is imposed on the British people,

:30:53.:30:56.

that not the 48%, nor That is a recipe for a complete

:30:57.:30:58.

breakdown in trust in politics. One of the big problems

:30:59.:31:02.

for you is you haven't really got much of a voice in terms

:31:03.:31:04.

of your size or in terms Nick Clegg, the former Leader,

:31:05.:31:07.

thinks what would help would be a realignment of the centre-left

:31:08.:31:12.

in a pro-EU common cause. I think some form of realignment

:31:13.:31:14.

is an interesting prospect. Who knows what might happen over

:31:15.:31:21.

the next few months and years? We are looking at a Conservative

:31:22.:31:27.

government which has no Why don't you link up

:31:28.:31:31.

with other left parties? I think it is very clear that

:31:32.:31:37.

even if you are a Conservative supporter, you probably think

:31:38.:31:41.

it is utterly terrible for Britain Given the Labour Party has chosen

:31:42.:31:44.

this backwater, this infighting, to go away from the serious business

:31:45.:31:51.

of trying to win power, thinking power is a dirty

:31:52.:31:53.

word, when it is not. It's the way you change people's

:31:54.:31:56.

lives and make a difference. That means only the Liberal

:31:57.:31:59.

Democrats across the whole of the United Kingdom stand up

:32:00.:32:01.

against the Conservatives. When you talk about realignment,

:32:02.:32:03.

I believe there are liberals in the Conservative Party appalled

:32:04.:32:07.

by what is going on over Brexit and the absolute disastrous

:32:08.:32:11.

lack of plan there is for our Even more there are liberals

:32:12.:32:14.

in the Labour Party who believe that winning power is a key ingredient

:32:15.:32:20.

to making a difference to people's lives, saving the NHS

:32:21.:32:23.

protecting our schools, making sure we have enough police

:32:24.:32:27.

on our streets. Winning power helps you to do

:32:28.:32:29.

those things. Those liberals

:32:30.:32:31.

in the Labour Party, I utterly respect your loyalty,

:32:32.:32:32.

loyalty is an absolute virtue, but what would be more

:32:33.:32:37.

of a virtue at a time like this would be to join us

:32:38.:32:39.

in standing up against the Conservatives, so we can win

:32:40.:32:42.

for the people of Britain who need and the Liberal Democrats will be

:32:43.:32:45.

that decent opposition. Will you work closely

:32:46.:32:49.

with Jeremy Corbyn to try I think Jeremy Corbyn is the kind

:32:50.:32:51.

of person who does not During the referendum,

:32:52.:32:55.

I reached out to him on more than one occasion to share

:32:56.:32:59.

a platform with him, as I did with Gordon Brown,

:33:00.:33:01.

David Cameron and others. On a personal level,

:33:02.:33:03.

I like Jeremy Corbyn. His agenda, and the faction

:33:04.:33:09.

he is surrounded with, the momentum that has taken

:33:10.:33:13.

over the Labour Party, The one thing they will not

:33:14.:33:16.

want to do is to work with anybody. That is a real shame but I can't do

:33:17.:33:21.

anything about that. What I can do

:33:22.:33:24.

something about is building a decent opposition that holds this

:33:25.:33:27.

Conservative government to account. Like I say, there are many decent

:33:28.:33:29.

minded people around the country, some of whom vote Conservative,

:33:30.:33:32.

and even they will think it is bad for Britain there is no proper

:33:33.:33:35.

opposition and the Liberal Democrats So, the 48% that voted to remain,

:33:36.:33:54.

has Tim Farron got any swell up public support for a second

:33:55.:34:00.

referendum on the Brexit deal? There is a huge amount of pomposity around

:34:01.:34:04.

this issue. You say the British people voted on something which was

:34:05.:34:08.

much to compensated to have a simple yes, no answer. Nobody has the

:34:09.:34:11.

mandate to deliver a deal which nobody put honestly on the table in

:34:12.:34:16.

the beginning. It was a simple question. Yes, about a very complex

:34:17.:34:22.

issue. The question was deceitful. There was nothing simple about it.

:34:23.:34:29.

Does it mean trade deals, immigration? Does it mean we do not

:34:30.:34:36.

have red tape? Do you think people want a referendum? The people who

:34:37.:34:42.

won do not want one and those who lost do. He is saying that some of

:34:43.:34:47.

the people who voted to leave the EU want a second referendum in terms of

:34:48.:34:52.

the deal. That is impossible to answer. 7% of the people who voted

:34:53.:34:59.

leave had regret afterwards. Three people who voted remain also

:35:00.:35:03.

regretted voting remain, even though they lost anyway. We need to park

:35:04.:35:07.

those opinions and just concentrate on the fact it was not a resounding

:35:08.:35:12.

victory. It couldn't really have been much closer, unless it was 49/

:35:13.:35:17.

51. Half the country are blundering into a deal with the other half

:35:18.:35:22.

standing there, saying, this is appalling, it is an act of

:35:23.:35:26.

vandalism. I do not think calling for a second referendum on the terms

:35:27.:35:31.

of the deal is unreasonable. I do not think we will get one.

:35:32.:35:34.

Westminster is in recess for the next couple of weeks

:35:35.:35:37.

as the main parties hold their conferences.

:35:38.:35:39.

But that doesn't mean politics grinds to a halt.

:35:40.:35:41.

So what else is happening over the next week?

:35:42.:35:43.

As we've been hearing, Theresa May will be arriving

:35:44.:35:45.

in New York this afternoon ahead of her first speech to the United

:35:46.:35:48.

On Tuesday, the Liberal Democrat Leader Tim Farron will be

:35:49.:35:52.

making his big speech to the party's annual conference.

:35:53.:35:55.

On Wednesday, ballots closes in the Labour leadership contest

:35:56.:35:58.

between Jeremy Corbyn and Owen Smith.

:35:59.:36:00.

The House of Commons is in recess, so there is no

:36:01.:36:03.

But Nicola Sturgeon and Ruth Davidson will be going head-to-head

:36:04.:36:08.

at First Ministers Question in the Scottish Parliament

:36:09.:36:10.

And eyes will turn to Liverpool on Saturday, where the result

:36:11.:36:15.

of the Labour Party leadership race will be announced.

:36:16.:36:19.

Joining us now are Martha Gill from the Huffington Post

:36:20.:36:22.

and the Daily Telegraph's Christopher Hope.

:36:23.:36:27.

Welcome to both of you. Christopher Hope, first of all, Lib Dem fight

:36:28.:36:35.

back. Any evidence? 18,000 new members, a few seats in the West

:36:36.:36:39.

Country council level. It has started but from a very low base.

:36:40.:36:44.

They are about the same size as the Democratic Unionist Party in

:36:45.:36:47.

Westminster, virtually irrelevant in terms of voting numbers. It is a

:36:48.:36:51.

long crawl. No surprise Nick Clegg is calling for another coalition.

:36:52.:36:55.

That is the best chance they have. What do you think there are chances

:36:56.:37:01.

wise of some sort of progressive left Alliance? They are keeping it

:37:02.:37:06.

quiet for now, for obvious reasons. I am not ruling anything out. There

:37:07.:37:10.

is a huge space in the centre that has opened up which the Lib Dems

:37:11.:37:13.

could well take advantage. Whether they do that along with some others

:37:14.:37:20.

the question. In terms of Brexit, Christopher Hope, looking at Theresa

:37:21.:37:23.

May and the honeymoon, if there ever was much of a honeymoon for her, do

:37:24.:37:27.

think it will get quite difficult for her in terms of backbenchers? I

:37:28.:37:34.

think so. This new campaign group launching today looking for a hard

:37:35.:37:38.

Brexit is most brides. Towards the first quarter next year, Britain

:37:39.:37:44.

needs to get on with serious talks. -- is no surprise. By Easter next

:37:45.:37:48.

year, there will be some real problems. They cannot say Brexit

:37:49.:37:53.

means Brexit was that it is like saying, cheese means cheese. It does

:37:54.:37:58.

not last for ever. Theresa May is going in on freedom of movement. We

:37:59.:38:03.

need to see more of what Brexit really means. Have you sensed any

:38:04.:38:08.

great unrest among Tory backbenchers? Are they still giving

:38:09.:38:12.

Theresa May the benefit of the doubt and enough time for her to formulate

:38:13.:38:17.

proper policies around negotiations? As Nicky Morgan said this weekend,

:38:18.:38:22.

when there is a vacuum, people will fill it. That has been filled not

:38:23.:38:26.

only from her backbenchers but also by prominent figures in the youth

:38:27.:38:30.

who are starting to really play hardball about Brexit negotiations.

:38:31.:38:38.

-- in the EU. Death they may want to protect other countries are not

:38:39.:38:43.

Britain. -- just saying they want to protect. It may be time for trees

:38:44.:38:47.

are made to say what Brexit really means. Christopher, do you have

:38:48.:38:54.

names of any Labour MPs who voted for no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn

:38:55.:38:57.

but who might now contemplate a return to the front bench? There

:38:58.:39:01.

were names around the weekend like Kia Starmer and respected figures

:39:02.:39:10.

from the recent part of Labour. Kier. In the old days clash at

:39:11.:39:14.

Cabinet responsibility meant you could stand up to most Labour

:39:15.:39:18.

policies if you are a moderate Labour politician. Given what may be

:39:19.:39:22.

coming out of Labour in the future, these people will not want to go

:39:23.:39:26.

into the Shadow Cabinet and defend what they may find indefensible.

:39:27.:39:31.

They do not know what to do. They want to help bring Labour back to

:39:32.:39:34.

the middle ground but can they sign up to some of these policies? It is

:39:35.:39:40.

difficult. The olive branch which Jeremy Corbyn is presenting two

:39:41.:39:43.

Labour MPs who have been critical of him, is there a sense it is genuine?

:39:44.:39:50.

Well, I think a lot of people find it a bit questionable. Also, there

:39:51.:39:56.

are rumours of a widescale power grab by Jeremy Corbyn. More policy

:39:57.:40:02.

decision ability from members. The sort of veiled threats to deselect

:40:03.:40:07.

troublesome MPs. This is something which is going to make the PLP

:40:08.:40:14.

furious. There is also an argument it might actually unite the party in

:40:15.:40:19.

some way. Some of them have been so disillusioned they are actually

:40:20.:40:22.

backing off and looking for prominent backbench positions,

:40:23.:40:25.

rather than coming back into the Shadow Cabinet. In a way, Jeremy

:40:26.:40:29.

Corbyn might end up with a more supportive PLP in the end. Plenty to

:40:30.:40:33.

chew over. Thank you very much. Now, there's less than 48 hours

:40:34.:40:36.

to go before the polls close The polls suggest Jeremy Corbyn

:40:37.:40:39.

is on course for another victory, but many are asking

:40:40.:40:43.

whether the party can reunite. Some Labour MPs, who have been

:40:44.:40:45.

critical of Mr Corbyn, are fearful that they could be deselected

:40:46.:40:48.

by local party members loyal Here's what the General Secretary

:40:49.:40:50.

of the Unite Union, Len McCluskey - a supporter of Mr Corbyn -

:40:51.:40:54.

told the BBC's John Pienaar for the Panorama programme scheduled

:40:55.:40:57.

to air later this evening. All of the MPs have behaved

:40:58.:40:59.

absolutely despicably They have not shown any respect,

:41:00.:41:01.

whatsoever, to the leader. So, those vocal dissidents,

:41:02.:41:10.

who do not show the respect to the Leader that you describe,

:41:11.:41:15.

when it comes to deselection, they would simply be asking

:41:16.:41:18.

for it, you would say? I think anybody who kind of behaves

:41:19.:41:20.

in a way that is totally disrespectful, and outwit

:41:21.:41:24.

the culture of the Labour Party, is basically asking to be

:41:25.:41:26.

held to account. With me now is Barbara Ntumy

:41:27.:41:35.

from the campaign group, Momentum, which grew out of Jeremy Corbyn's

:41:36.:41:41.

first leadership campaign, and Richard Angell

:41:42.:41:43.

the director of Progress, Welcome to both of you. Richard,

:41:44.:41:53.

first of all. Let's pick up on what Len McCluskey said. Isn't he right

:41:54.:41:57.

that Labour MPs who are openly critical of the leadership of Jeremy

:41:58.:42:00.

Corbyn are asking to be held to account by their local party

:42:01.:42:05.

membership? Len McCluskey was not particularly supportive of some of

:42:06.:42:09.

the Labour leadership. Jeremy Corbyn vote truth to power when he was a

:42:10.:42:12.

backbencher in the Labour Party. This has to be a Broadchurch party.

:42:13.:42:17.

We all need to have different ideas as long as we are constructive in

:42:18.:42:21.

those, that must be important going forward. People have tried to serve

:42:22.:42:26.

on the front bench but have been frustrated time and again, which is

:42:27.:42:30.

what led to the situation when we led the EU. Isn't it the case,

:42:31.:42:36.

Barbara, you would have a monoculture within the Labour Party

:42:37.:42:40.

if everybody thought the same way? It is true that Jeremy Corbyn did

:42:41.:42:43.

not support any of the recent Labour leaders but there were no calls for

:42:44.:42:50.

him to be deselected? Do you understand that if you are not in

:42:51.:42:54.

agreement with the leader, or agree, if you're not in agreement with the

:42:55.:42:57.

leader, you should still have a place? You should still have a place

:42:58.:43:03.

in the party. Doing disruptive purposely at a time when Labour

:43:04.:43:09.

should have been putting forward its planned this recently after the

:43:10.:43:13.

referendum, some of us feel concerned about it. We could be

:43:14.:43:18.

pushing back the Tories and said of having an internal, bitter fight,

:43:19.:43:23.

with people resigning every hour. It was a bit embarrassing. Labour MPs

:43:24.:43:28.

would think to do anything like that. You'd think they should be

:43:29.:43:33.

held to account? Whatever form that comes into people have voted for

:43:34.:43:36.

them and constituents should be able to do that. I don't think it is good

:43:37.:43:42.

for anyone to be deselected. What do you say to that? There is a

:43:43.:43:45.

difference between people having problems with the leader and having

:43:46.:43:54.

mass deselection is. After we left the U, Jeremy Corbyn said we should

:43:55.:44:04.

trigger article 50 straightaway. -- the EU. Somebody who caused a big

:44:05.:44:14.

issue like that, people do not want to think they cannot do the job

:44:15.:44:19.

ahead of them. Where Labour is now, according to Neil Kinnock, he says

:44:20.:44:22.

he will never see a Labour governed again in his lifetime. What do you

:44:23.:44:26.

say? I disagree. Hundreds of thousands of people joined the

:44:27.:44:31.

Labour Party. We're all going to go door knocking. We're trying to speak

:44:32.:44:37.

to the current situation with people having zero hours contracts, who do

:44:38.:44:44.

not have stability in work. We are speaking to community about and that

:44:45.:44:48.

will win us into government. Even though the polls are disastrous? The

:44:49.:44:52.

polls are disastrous because we have had the summer we had. The polls

:44:53.:44:56.

have called it wrong several times. We should not 100% rely on them. The

:44:57.:45:02.

polls are in the favour of Labour. It could be worse than they are now

:45:03.:45:05.

full Jeremy Corbyn was not a head before the Brexit referendum

:45:06.:45:09.

happened. There is a deep problem we have. The problem is, what our

:45:10.:45:14.

momentum waiting for question of the two programmes coming out later

:45:15.:45:17.

show, behind-the-scenes with a not the nice people on the television

:45:18.:45:21.

making the decisions, it is many others. They are prioritised in

:45:22.:45:26.

deselecting many MPs rather than door knocking and winning the

:45:27.:45:31.

election. That is untrue. It is a democratic organisation.

:45:32.:45:37.

Momentum activists went out to campaign for Sadiq Khan, including

:45:38.:45:43.

me and my friends. There is not one priority over the other. Actually we

:45:44.:45:49.

can do both. I don't know who the elected officers are for Saving

:45:50.:45:53.

Labour. We want the Labour Party to be democratic and we want ordinary

:45:54.:45:58.

members to have a say, as opposed to MPs, or even the leader having a

:45:59.:46:03.

direct veto. People are sick and tired of austerity light and we want

:46:04.:46:08.

better. People want alternatives to the government, not just a

:46:09.:46:13.

replacement. Let Richard finishes point. We have got to build a bigger

:46:14.:46:17.

vision and it cannot be about control of the Labour Party. It has

:46:18.:46:21.

got to be winning over the community that left us and that means

:46:22.:46:28.

campaigning all year round, not just street stalls from Momentum and

:46:29.:46:34.

campaigning for Sadiq Khan when the vote comes round. It is campaigning

:46:35.:46:40.

all year. It is a great thing that the Labour Party is bigger and

:46:41.:46:45.

better off than before. Are you loyal to Labour values? They seem to

:46:46.:46:49.

be more loyal to Jeremy Corbyn rather than the party brand, because

:46:50.:46:54.

they have come from the Green Party, the Socialist workers party, maybe

:46:55.:46:57.

the Communist Party, but they are not actually loyal to Labour.

:46:58.:47:04.

Labour's policy is to have a democratic party, which is what most

:47:05.:47:09.

people are. There is a difference as to how that is interpreted with

:47:10.:47:12.

different leaders over the years. All these new members are loyal to

:47:13.:47:15.

Labour because what Labour and the leader stand for things that bring

:47:16.:47:22.

us together as opposed to being like the Tories and not having Labour

:47:23.:47:27.

values. Momentum turns a blind eye when the workers have this Russian

:47:28.:47:35.

doll policy. Momentum controls the left group in the local party, which

:47:36.:47:39.

decides who the delegate is for party conference, that is not

:47:40.:47:43.

tolerable. Do you think piece will break out in the Labour Party? It is

:47:44.:47:48.

very silly. There is a lot of silliness going on here. Everything

:47:49.:47:52.

you are talking about is in the Dispatches programme, I believe. The

:47:53.:48:02.

idea that AWL, that she is some kind of dangerous trot, that is

:48:03.:48:05.

ridiculous. Anybody would recognise her from an 80s Labour Party, any

:48:06.:48:11.

meeting you had ever been to in 1984. There is no dangerous

:48:12.:48:14.

subtraction. There are people who believe in things more tragically

:48:15.:48:18.

than others. Momentum, the guy they have got on the Dispatches

:48:19.:48:22.

programme, apparently from Momentum but isn't actually a member. But can

:48:23.:48:28.

they reunite? If Jeremy Corbyn is handing out an olive branch and you

:48:29.:48:35.

have a Labour MP like Peter Carr who says he is the first person who uses

:48:36.:48:38.

an olive branch as a weapon to beat people with because of the abuse he

:48:39.:48:43.

has had locally from within the Labour Party, does peace have a

:48:44.:48:47.

chance that the Labour? It as if everybody takes the temperature down

:48:48.:48:51.

a bit. You can't look at an army of activists and write them off as

:48:52.:48:54.

revolutionaries and not be interested in them. You have got to

:48:55.:48:59.

be more curious and open about who Momentum are what they want to do.

:49:00.:49:07.

If you are the kind of party that worry so much about whether a Green

:49:08.:49:10.

Party member is true Labour and you cannot accept their membership, then

:49:11.:49:17.

you have got to ask what your values are. Do you think they should stay

:49:18.:49:25.

in their positions? Loads of people like myself and my friends will feel

:49:26.:49:29.

that people who have been told they can't be members of the Labour Party

:49:30.:49:31.

because they might have tweeted about anything else... I think it

:49:32.:49:40.

raises the question. I don't disrespect Tom Watson and I don't

:49:41.:49:43.

think he should go. I think there are issues about the way that people

:49:44.:49:46.

have been treated which need to be looked at. If people cannot act

:49:47.:49:50.

fairly then we need to have a discussion about whether they are

:49:51.:49:55.

there to serve the party or to say this person has tweeted about the

:49:56.:49:58.

Green Party so they could possibly have Labour values and I think that

:49:59.:50:03.

is wrong. Thank you. Theresa May insists government will be

:50:04.:50:06.

remarkably different from David Cameron's that doesn't appear to

:50:07.:50:09.

want an early general election to provide her with a mandate.

:50:10.:50:19.

So does that mean she'll stick by everything in the Conservatives'

:50:20.:50:22.

We've been busy crawling through the promises

:50:23.:50:24.

made by David Cameron, and updated our Manifesto Tracker

:50:25.:50:27.

to check which policies are being pursued.

:50:28.:50:28.

By the magic of television, I will now step into my virtual studio.

:50:29.:50:31.

It's been an eventful period since we launched

:50:32.:50:33.

Britain has voted to leave the EU and a new Prime

:50:34.:50:38.

Minister is in place, but the Conservative Government

:50:39.:50:40.

under Theresa May will still be held to the promises it made ahead

:50:41.:50:45.

of the 2015 general election in their manifesto, and a few other

:50:46.:50:47.

big commitments made during the campaign.

:50:48.:50:50.

And this is how we are keeping track of their progress.

:50:51.:50:54.

We have identified 161 pledges and loaded them into

:50:55.:50:57.

We've grouped them into categories covering all the major areas

:50:58.:51:04.

of Government policy, from the constitution down to welfare.

:51:05.:51:09.

And we have given each of the promises a colour rating.

:51:10.:51:12.

Red means little or no progress so far.

:51:13.:51:16.

Amber means the Government has made some progress.

:51:17.:51:19.

While green is for delivered pledges.

:51:20.:51:26.

Let's start by looking at one here in foreign affairs and defence,

:51:27.:51:29.

The promise to hold a referendum on our EU membership.

:51:30.:51:36.

We have changed that to green, as the Government did deliver

:51:37.:51:39.

in June, even if it didn't get the result it wanted.

:51:40.:51:45.

Many of the promises made while David Cameron was leader

:51:46.:51:49.

were based around what he hoped he could achieve in his

:51:50.:51:52.

renegotiation of our relationship with the EU, particularly

:51:53.:51:54.

The manifesto said that EU migrants who want to claim tax credits

:51:55.:52:05.

and child benefits must live here and contribute

:52:06.:52:07.

The deal offered to David Cameron by the rest of the EU was a much

:52:08.:52:14.

weaker version of the pledge, which, like the rest

:52:15.:52:16.

of the renegotiation, was rejected by the voters

:52:17.:52:19.

So we have given this a red, although it is possible

:52:20.:52:27.

the Government could deliver on it once we have left the EU.

:52:28.:52:33.

The same goes for the promise that if a child of an EU migrant

:52:34.:52:37.

is living abroad, they should receive no child benefit

:52:38.:52:39.

David Cameron's renegotiation failed to secure this policy

:52:40.:52:46.

in full and it would be up to Theresa May's Government if it

:52:47.:52:49.

The vote to leave has had big implications for manifesto

:52:50.:52:54.

commitments in other areas, like here in the economy.

:52:55.:52:59.

One of the central promises made by David Cameron

:53:00.:53:02.

and George Osborne was this one, to eliminate the deficit and start

:53:03.:53:06.

But after the Brexit vote, Theresa May confirmed that

:53:07.:53:15.

while the Government still aims to achieve a budget surplus,

:53:16.:53:18.

it has dropped the target of doing so by the end

:53:19.:53:21.

Now those are some areas where the Government has made little

:53:22.:53:29.

Well, it fought a major battle in Parliament to tighten the rules

:53:30.:53:38.

This promise, which said strike action can only be called

:53:39.:53:45.

when at least half the eligible workforce have voted, is now law,

:53:46.:53:48.

As does this one, meaning that strikes affecting essential public

:53:49.:53:57.

services like health, education, fire and transport,

:53:58.:54:00.

will need the backing of at least 40% of those eligible to vote.

:54:01.:54:04.

We have marked the majority of promises as amber,

:54:05.:54:07.

meaning at least some progress is being made.

:54:08.:54:13.

Here, in welfare, for example, we have got the Government's

:54:14.:54:19.

flagship reform universal credit, which has been rolled out

:54:20.:54:21.

for some job-seekers, although the timetable for full

:54:22.:54:23.

delivery has been pushed back repeatedly and is currently

:54:24.:54:26.

And another here, under the environment.

:54:27.:54:34.

That's the promise to create a so-called bluebelt of protected

:54:35.:54:38.

conservation zones in the water around the UK's coast.

:54:39.:54:42.

That has been given an amber, as the programme still

:54:43.:54:44.

Now let's see how the Government is doing overall.

:54:45.:54:53.

Out of 161 election commitments, the number of commitments we have

:54:54.:54:56.

The number marked amber falls to 90, and the number of green,

:54:57.:55:06.

We will be returning to the Manifesto Tracker again

:55:07.:55:11.

but, in the meantime, you can find all of the data on the politics

:55:12.:55:14.

To discuss this, I'm joined now by the former

:55:15.:55:22.

Welcome to the programme. Does the 2015 Conservative manifesto on which

:55:23.:55:35.

you were elected to government still apply post-referendum? Yes. Really?

:55:36.:55:40.

Yes. But Theresa May seems to have hit the reset button when it comes

:55:41.:55:44.

to key areas of government policy to stamp their own style as opposed to

:55:45.:55:48.

David Cameron. I think it is interesting to talk about the role a

:55:49.:55:53.

manifesto blaze. Most voters wouldn't necessarily spend hours

:55:54.:55:58.

poring over every aspect of the manifesto. But they might look at

:55:59.:56:02.

the key pledges. Yes, and it has an absolutely crucial role. As a

:56:03.:56:07.

minister, you come in after the election, and the officials will

:56:08.:56:10.

have gone through the manifesto and taken out all the pledges and they

:56:11.:56:14.

use them as your template. That will form the basis for Cabinet

:56:15.:56:19.

committees, their gender, and so on. So yes, the manifesto remains

:56:20.:56:23.

absolutely relevant in terms of policy but at the same time you have

:56:24.:56:26.

a relationship with the voters and there may be a policy in there that

:56:27.:56:30.

post Brexit reasonably cannot follow through on and you have got to

:56:31.:56:33.

explain that to voters and it is something they might consider at the

:56:34.:56:38.

next election. Some keep pledges have been abandoned. The plan to

:56:39.:56:43.

eliminate the deficit and reach a surplus by the end of this

:56:44.:56:48.

Parliament was dumped within days. Some supporters will be very

:56:49.:56:53.

disappointed about that. Politicians are accountable at general elections

:56:54.:56:55.

and I think this is a useful exercise. I know the BBC people

:56:56.:56:59.

spent all summer putting this track together so I know we will be coming

:57:00.:57:03.

back to it because a of work has gone into it. So should there be a

:57:04.:57:08.

general election as you have just said? I don't, because Theresa May

:57:09.:57:12.

has taken over in different circumstances to the way that Gordon

:57:13.:57:16.

Brown took over from Tony Blair, for example. It was planned resignation

:57:17.:57:22.

by Tony Blair. There should have been a general election. Here

:57:23.:57:25.

Theresa May is stepping in because circumstances have changed. The

:57:26.:57:28.

Prime Minister has gone because he failed to fulfil his proposals on

:57:29.:57:33.

the EU. But if the Prime Minister comes in and abandoned ski pledges

:57:34.:57:36.

like the one about the deficit, and grammar schools, and bringing back

:57:37.:57:42.

selection, she needs to go to the country to get a fresh mandate. I

:57:43.:57:47.

don't accept that. The manifesto is very detailed and it provides a

:57:48.:57:50.

template for all departments to work too and they are held to account,

:57:51.:57:54.

but at the same time politicians have a direct relationship with

:57:55.:57:56.

voters and it will be up to Theresa May and other ministers to explain

:57:57.:58:02.

why they are changing direction but that is perfectly acceptable. Even

:58:03.:58:04.

if there hadn't been a change Prime Minister, governments can be hit by

:58:05.:58:07.

events, just like the last Labour government was hit by the banking

:58:08.:58:12.

crisis. Nobody expects a manifesto set out in 2015 remain absolutely

:58:13.:58:18.

carved in stone for five years. What about grammar schools? She didn't

:58:19.:58:21.

have to do that and nothing has changed in terms of education so why

:58:22.:58:26.

grammar schools? As a new Prime Ministers she is entitled to promote

:58:27.:58:30.

individual policies that she feels very strongly about, including

:58:31.:58:34.

grammar schools, but this consultation, the white paper, the

:58:35.:58:36.

green paper and Parliament, they get to debate it as well. You are right.

:58:37.:58:43.

When there is a national emergency, which Brexit constitutes, you do

:58:44.:58:47.

have to drop things, but you are wrong to reintroduce selection. One

:58:48.:58:50.

of the most important things that has been said in the education world

:58:51.:58:55.

for 20 years, just because you want to stamp the mark of a kind of

:58:56.:58:59.

person you intend to be. It is vain and arrogant and completely wrong.

:59:00.:59:03.

Nobody has a mandate to do that. There are two things at play here.

:59:04.:59:07.

The manifesto is important because it allows the government to know

:59:08.:59:12.

what they are playing too. But Parliament remains sovereign and if

:59:13.:59:15.

a new Prime Minister wants to bring in a new policy, Parliament can

:59:16.:59:18.

debate it and decide on it. Thank you to all our guests, especially to

:59:19.:59:23.

you. Andrew and I will be here at midday tomorrow for two programmes.

:59:24.:59:29.

Make sure you join as them. Goodbye. -- join

:59:30.:59:31.

Jo Coburn examines the debate over whether the UK should make a hard or soft exit from the EU and the Labour leadership battle. Plus an interview with Tim Farron from the Lib Dem conference and a look at how the government is doing at meeting its manifesto pledges.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS