16/09/2016: UKIP Conference Daily Politics


16/09/2016: UKIP Conference

Andrew Neil is joined by Ukip MP Douglas Carswell to discuss his party's conference in Bournemouth Plus live coverage of Nigel Farage's final speech as Ukip leader.


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Transcript


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It has been very busy. We have swapped the exceptional September

:00:00.:00:12.

heat for some exceptionally thundery downpours.

:00:13.:00:38.

As Ukip prepares to unveil its new leader, Nigel Farage

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delivers his final leader's speech - we'll bring you that live

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from the UKIP conference in Bournemouth, and ask where the

:00:47.:00:48.

It's achieved its central goal but there are defections

:00:49.:00:57.

and disarray in Ukip in the wake of the Brexit vote -

:00:58.:01:00.

one of Nigel Farage's former aides tells us why she's leaving

:01:01.:01:03.

EU leaders meet in Slovakia to discuss Brexit and other

:01:04.:01:10.

Theresa May won't be there, so what deal will the remaining 27

:01:11.:01:16.

members offer Britain outside the EU?

:01:17.:01:21.

And Britain may not be part of it, and many assured us it

:01:22.:01:26.

wasn't on the cards, but will the EU soon

:01:27.:01:28.

All that in the next 90 minutes - and with us for the next hour,

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First this morning, let's just hear what outgoing Ukip leader

:01:41.:01:47.

Nigel Farage has been saying about you.

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Genuinely, I don't know why he joined.

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He doesn't seem to believe anything we stand for, it's rather odd.

:01:58.:02:00.

He doesn't contribute to what we do as a national political party.

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He just happens to be the MP for the most Eurosceptic

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All the democratic data puts Clacton the number one jurisdiction...

:02:09.:02:12.

Well, at the time it seemed like a good idea.

:02:13.:02:16.

Nigel Farage on Sky News. He says he doesn't know why you joined Ukip.

:02:17.:02:40.

Can you remember why you joined? I wanted to make sure we had a

:02:41.:02:43.

referendum and I wanted to make sure that the group thinking in

:02:44.:02:47.

Westminster on the Europe question was broken and as a consequence of

:02:48.:02:52.

the by-election, I think that's one of the reasons, one of a number of

:02:53.:02:57.

reasons, why we had a referendum. He says you must feel, quote, very

:02:58.:03:03.

uncomfortable in Ukip. Do you feel uncomfortable in Ukip? There are

:03:04.:03:07.

times when it seems as if you do. I feel uncomfortable with the nativist

:03:08.:03:10.

sentiment of Assyrian posters, I felt uncomfortable with the shock

:03:11.:03:15.

and awful tactics that were rejected by the electorate in the run-up to

:03:16.:03:18.

the last general election but ultimately, I think Nigel find it

:03:19.:03:22.

difficult, forgive me, forwarding my seat. I brought two thirds of our

:03:23.:03:30.

Parliamentary election results. There are some in Ukip you find it

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difficult to forgive me not just because I won but because I won by

:03:34.:03:39.

not imitating that shock and awe. To Giteau that so singularly failed

:03:40.:03:43.

elsewhere. But that's what the party, in many regards, was about.

:03:44.:03:48.

You knew what you were getting into. I disagree. I think Ukip can and

:03:49.:03:52.

should and has a tradition of being a libertarian, free-market party.

:03:53.:03:56.

There is a cartel in Westminster. The established parties have rigged

:03:57.:04:00.

the existing system. We could break that and I think we desperately do

:04:01.:04:04.

need a new force in British politics that will break that. That could

:04:05.:04:08.

still be Ukip. It is not just the groupthink surrounding Europe policy

:04:09.:04:11.

that is holding the country back, there was groupthink over a whole

:04:12.:04:14.

range of issues whether cartel of parties aren't giving us the change

:04:15.:04:19.

this country needs. Ukip could be that force. Now that most people in

:04:20.:04:23.

Westminster approach on leaving the European Union, a sensible control

:04:24.:04:27.

policy on immigration, let's shift the groupthink on all those other

:04:28.:04:31.

things like quantitative easing and monetary policy which are enriching

:04:32.:04:34.

a few bankers at the expense of everyone else. The family court

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system... There is a whole range of topics where change is desperately

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needed. UR voice of one and there was no sense that Ukip could go down

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that road. -- you are a voice of one. Is it not all over for you? I

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think with a new leader we have the chance to press the reset button and

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I think if we have a leader, and I've been calling for a change of

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leadership for some time, if we do press the reset button and avoid

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some infighting, it is a huge opportunity. Look at the broader

:05:06.:05:09.

picture. The Conservative Party looks like it is a one party mini at

:05:10.:05:14.

the moment. They only got 37% last election. The Liberal Democrats are

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on holiday from history. We need a new leader, a fresh face and a

:05:20.:05:22.

slightly more optimistic and cheerful tone. If we have that, the

:05:23.:05:25.

sky is the limit it up very well. So we're expecting Nigel Farage

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to come to his feet It's supposed to be his last speech

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to Conference as party leader - but he has resigned twice before

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only to make comebacks. He built Ukip from a minority,

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fringe party to one that got 14% of the vote

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at the last general election. Nigel Farage himself failed

:05:43.:05:45.

to become an MP in 2010 and 2015. But the party now has 22 MEPs,

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as well as one MP and a presence Perhaps their greatest achievement

:05:49.:05:51.

was to secure a Leave vote in the EU Referendum on June 23rd,

:05:52.:06:00.

which Mr Farage hailed But with that secured,

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what's the future of the party? Diane James is the favourite

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to take over as leader this afternoon, but some of the party's

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biggest names - like Suzanne Evans and Steven Woolfe -

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were unable to take part A row in the party in Wales

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means their leader there - Nathan Gill - is now sitting

:06:23.:06:26.

as an independent in the Assembly. And yesterday on this programme,

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the party's former director, Steve Stanbury, announced his

:06:33.:06:35.

defection to the Conservatives. We're joined now by former

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Ukip Head of Media and aide to Nigel Farage Alex Phillips,

:06:43.:06:45.

who has said today that she is leaving the party

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and joining the Conservatives. Why? I think it's quite simple.

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First of all, Ukip is itself cannibalising. It is eating itself

:06:59.:07:02.

from the inside out. But when I saw Theresa May become Prime Minister

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and start talking about selective education, and I've read about her

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ascent to do exploratory drilling to look for shale gas, for energy

:07:11.:07:13.

security, those things are key policies that I really believe in

:07:14.:07:17.

and I think you can either be loyal to an organisation or loyalty or

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convictions. So you think because of the direction that the May

:07:22.:07:25.

Conservative government is going in now, there is not a need for Ukip?

:07:26.:07:31.

My position is, for me on the things that I believe in, I don't need

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Ukip. I've outgrown Ukip. There are 4 million people who voted Ukip in

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the general election. May consider the alternative -- they are

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considered the alternative to Labour. What Ukip does need to do is

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rebrand, find distinct policy initiatives now to separate

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themselves from the Conservatives. Why don't you stay to help them do

:07:54.:07:56.

that? I've outgrown the party and when I look at what Theresa May is

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saying and doing, they are the party of government. If I want those

:08:02.:08:03.

things to get through Parliament, to actually come into effect, I need

:08:04.:08:07.

the Conservatives to increase their majority in 2020 to help the passage

:08:08.:08:11.

of those bills. What did Nigel Farage say when you told him you

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were leaving? We've spoken about it a few times. I spoke to him on

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Wednesday. He was disappointed, understandably. He said, why don't

:08:20.:08:23.

you want to stay? Do you trust Theresa May? I gave him the reasons

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I've just given you and we are good friends. You are still good friends?

:08:28.:08:33.

I believe so, yeah. You've said the party is in, quote, a catastrophic

:08:34.:08:38.

mess. That is hardly a legacy that your good friend can be proud of. I

:08:39.:08:43.

don't want to point fingers at an individual. There are many

:08:44.:08:47.

contributing factors. I think Douglas knows this very well. They

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created a sense of animosity, this growing bitterness and jealousy. It

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created an environment where conspiracy theories were running

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amok and things were becoming from myth into legend. It got to the

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stage, I feel, that it is almost irreparable. The next leader has got

:09:05.:09:08.

a huge job at the hands. You think it may not have a future? That's not

:09:09.:09:14.

for me to say. In November you said Ukip was here to stay. You clearly

:09:15.:09:18.

don't think that now. I did believe that in November. I

:09:19.:09:25.

believed that, really, up until around February or March, when I saw

:09:26.:09:28.

quite how much the fallout was affecting the party, quite how deep

:09:29.:09:33.

those divisions were and I thought, I just can't see a way back now. I

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can't see a way for Ukip to unify and the final straw, really, was

:09:38.:09:42.

Theresa May standing up and saying, you know, putting forward policies

:09:43.:09:46.

that will appeal to a lot of Ukip voters. You describe Neil Hamilton

:09:47.:09:51.

of Ukip in Wales as, quote, a Machiavellian Rasputin character. I

:09:52.:09:55.

know, terminology am quite proud of. Why do you describe him like that? I

:09:56.:10:00.

don't want to assert that he causes this or that or is plotting this or

:10:01.:10:05.

that. I've seen e-mails and texts he's is sent. They are not positive

:10:06.:10:11.

or constructive. He also is very often opportunistically at the side

:10:12.:10:13.

of an explosion and I think there comes a time when you have to say,

:10:14.:10:17.

we need to unify, this isn't about slinging mud at each other at the

:10:18.:10:21.

press, although one could argue that is likely what I'm doing now. I

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think one could argue that with veracity! But I've left! Don't you

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late at night, on your Rome, worry that you joined the wrong club in

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the end? I sleep very soundly at night, particularly after June 23.

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You don't pay, what have I done? Alex Phillips is leaving, Stephen

:10:47.:10:51.

Stanford resigned on this programme. The head of Ukip in Wales is now an

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independent. Miss Phillips says that the senior figure in Wales is now a

:10:58.:11:02.

Machiavellian Rasputin character. This is a kind of Ukip version of

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the Bullingdon Club you joined, isn't it? I like and respect Alex

:11:06.:11:10.

far too much to argue with that. She's obviously thought long and

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hard about this. I think Alex is the person that any party should give an

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arm and a leg to have as part of the team and it makes me very sad and it

:11:20.:11:29.

is a huge loss. I still reckon that having a 1-party monopoly system in

:11:30.:11:33.

Westminster, which is, in effect, what we've got, is not going to

:11:34.:11:36.

change this country for the better. I understand that but if you listen

:11:37.:11:41.

to Alex Phillips, it wouldn't suggest that Ukip, which is in,

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quote, a catastrophic mess, is the antidote to Tory figure many. It's a

:11:47.:11:51.

fixable problem. If we had party strategists, election strategist,

:11:52.:11:53.

who knew how to count, that would be a good start it up if we are people

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with experience of winning elections helping with messaging, that would

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be a start, but this just shows that the next leader has an enormous task

:12:03.:12:05.

of unifying the party. There are still some very talented people

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there. They need to be brought together, not torn apart. Thank you

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for being with us. My pleasure. So, in a few minutes Nigel Farage

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will get to his feet to make his final

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speech as party leader. First, let's take a look

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at the highs and lows What people are saying

:12:24.:12:25.

is "Get Britain out". I'm going to have a Black Sheep,

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please. You have the charisma of a damp

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rag, and the appearance Nobody in Europe had ever

:12:30.:12:32.

heard of you. It's one of those grace of God

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things that he is still alive. He used to ignore immigration,

:12:43.:12:52.

now he lives on a reservation. I don't know that

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leaflet Nick, but... Go back to the river,

:12:58.:12:58.

because you're up one The sun has risen on an

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independent United Kingdom. And just look at it,

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even the weather's improved. I know that virtually none

:13:29.:13:34.

of you have ever done a proper You, as a political project,

:13:35.:13:36.

are in denial. Well, thank you, and good

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evening Mississippi! It's time for me to stand aside

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as leader of this party. I feel it's right that I should now

:14:10.:14:14.

stand aside, as leader of Ukip. It's only when they're empty that

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you do that, when it's The life and times of Nigel Farage.

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We are waiting for him to get up on his feet at the conference in

:14:38.:14:40.

Bournemouth where he will give his swansong and we will go there live

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the moment we see that is happening. There is someone else speaking at

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the moment. Douglas Carswell, if it hadn't been for Nigel Farage, would

:14:50.:14:54.

Ukip have ever got 4 million votes in the general election, would it

:14:55.:14:59.

have forced the Tories into a referendum? Credit where it's due.

:15:00.:15:05.

He played a huge role in the referendum, not exclusively, many

:15:06.:15:09.

people in the Conservative Party, many ministers who sacrifice their

:15:10.:15:12.

ministerial careers that made sure we had a referendum. It was fear of

:15:13.:15:18.

Nigel Farage, they feared him as a potent force. They feared he reached

:15:19.:15:23.

traditional Tory voters. If you look at the polls immediately after the

:15:24.:15:29.

Rochester and Clacton by-elections, one in five people at one time were

:15:30.:15:34.

going to vote Ukip. The fact we run a campaign over the next six months

:15:35.:15:40.

that lost us one in three-year supporters is another story. It

:15:41.:15:44.

caused David Cameron to make commitments that wouldn't have

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happened without Nigel and Ukip. Getting a referendum and winning

:15:50.:15:53.

it... That was what got Ukip out of bed in the morning. That's now

:15:54.:15:59.

happened. You talked earlier of a party that is free-market and

:16:00.:16:04.

libertarian. That's not what they're voting for in the north of England,

:16:05.:16:08.

the disillusioned working class. They are not voting for Fabius among

:16:09.:16:13.

government knows best either. They are voting for a government that

:16:14.:16:16.

would take notice of them. They regard the free market as something

:16:17.:16:19.

that destroyed all that old industries. With respect, one of the

:16:20.:16:24.

reasons the centre-left parties are in a crisis is precisely because the

:16:25.:16:29.

conventional, Fabian ideas don't appeal to their base any more. We

:16:30.:16:33.

knew this moment was coming. We knew this moment would come when we voted

:16:34.:16:37.

to leave the European Union, when the establishment has accepted our

:16:38.:16:48.

views on immigration. We spent the last six months working on a series

:16:49.:16:52.

of policy papers, on a series of things besides immigration. Opening

:16:53.:16:54.

up the family courts, energy market, taking on the banking cartel,

:16:55.:16:56.

quantitative easing. A whole range of things a party like Ukip needs to

:16:57.:17:00.

do to make sure we're no longer governed by this group thing, this

:17:01.:17:03.

soggy way in Westminster that is running the country into the ground.

:17:04.:17:08.

Your lowest hanging fruit is in the north of England. There is a lot of

:17:09.:17:12.

data in the the Times this morning that suggests the 20 seats where

:17:13.:17:17.

people regard themselves, in the north, regard themselves most as

:17:18.:17:22.

English, not British, are also the 20 areas where the vote to Leave was

:17:23.:17:27.

biggest of all. That is a politics of identity. They are looking for

:17:28.:17:31.

someone to represent that identity. They don't think it is Labour any

:17:32.:17:35.

more. They don't really give the Tories look in. They are not going

:17:36.:17:40.

to give Ukip a look in either. With respect, I think they could. We had

:17:41.:17:45.

a leader on the centre-right, Margaret Thatcher, who understood

:17:46.:17:50.

people who to traditionally voted Labour, if you gave them the

:17:51.:17:53.

opportunity to buy their council house, that would give them support

:17:54.:17:58.

in the ballot box. We could do that. Giving people the ability to self

:17:59.:18:01.

commission public services, allowing people to have the same choice over

:18:02.:18:05.

their child's education that they have when they decide what their

:18:06.:18:09.

child watches evening, giving people the ability to share... She lost

:18:10.:18:16.

almost every major northern city. She was also never defeated by the

:18:17.:18:21.

British people. It was under her the Conservatives increasingly became a

:18:22.:18:25.

party of the South. That trend began under her. Yes, and I'm not drawing

:18:26.:18:30.

an exact analogy. Because it doesn't work. If you are looking for a fresh

:18:31.:18:37.

approach to build a coalition, from a traditional Labour base, she shows

:18:38.:18:42.

you some ways, ideas as to how you can do that. Who do you speak for in

:18:43.:18:49.

Ukip on this? Almost no one else of the names that are left takes this

:18:50.:18:54.

line. You are a one-man band almost. Perhaps if we were talking about

:18:55.:18:58.

them a bit more we would be on 20% of the polls rather than 10%. I took

:18:59.:19:03.

a great deal about these things in Clacton. This approach manages to

:19:04.:19:09.

secure support, obviously from centre-right voters, also former

:19:10.:19:14.

Labour voters in Essex. I'm sure it could work across the country. It

:19:15.:19:19.

must be a pretty good chance you are going to fight the 2020 election as

:19:20.:19:25.

an independent? I'm planning on fighting as the Ukip candidate,

:19:26.:19:29.

whenever the election may be. Who says it's going to be in 2020? We

:19:30.:19:34.

don't know. Whenever it is. Never mind the date. It must be, given...

:19:35.:19:43.

Ukip and you are now two ships passing in the night. The outgoing

:19:44.:19:50.

leader of Ukip, rather like the outgoing leader of the Conservative

:19:51.:19:53.

Party is perhaps a little critical of me. But it is not the former

:19:54.:19:57.

leader of Ukip that really counts. It's the new leader and we are going

:19:58.:20:01.

to hear you that new leader is and I look forward to working with them.

:20:02.:20:04.

It is Diane James who is currently the favourite. Will you get on

:20:05.:20:09.

better with her that Nigel Farage? I would give her 100% support. She

:20:10.:20:13.

nearly won a by-election. She understands.

:20:14.:20:37.

She has a compelling retail proposition. Simply complaining

:20:38.:20:40.

about the state of the country is not sufficient to get you beyond the

:20:41.:20:42.

base. You need something more. ? ?CAPNEXT all to let's go to take the

:20:43.:20:45.

stage. He is being Mr Yuvraj is about to take the stage. He is being

:20:46.:20:49.

introduced outgoing party outgoing Ukip of Ukip. He Farage to come up.

:20:50.:20:57.

I Nigel Farage to come up. A rather younger they are showing a video

:20:58.:20:59.

first, a rather younger looking Nigel

:21:00.:21:05.

we are not going to show this we are not going to show this video we

:21:06.:21:13.

don't do it for we don't do it the Tories on Lib Dems. Are you

:21:14.:21:21.

convinced there will be, as the people voted for it? I think they're

:21:22.:21:25.

well. I think there will be some attempt to try and frustrate and

:21:26.:21:29.

subvert the referendum. The judiciary and House of Lords may try

:21:30.:21:33.

it, we could even see the Humphrey in Whitehall try it, but I think

:21:34.:21:37.

increasingly the momentum is such that that becomes impossible. Do you

:21:38.:21:42.

have confidence in Theresa May, as the people voted for it? I think

:21:43.:21:44.

they're well. I think there will be some attempt to try and frustrate

:21:45.:21:47.

and subvert the referendum. The judiciary and House of Lords may try

:21:48.:21:49.

it, we could even see the Humphrey in Whitehall try it, but I think

:21:50.:21:52.

increasingly the momentum is such that that becomes impossible. Do you

:21:53.:21:54.

have confidence in Theresa May that she was a reluctant, that she will

:21:55.:21:57.

change your mind, that she would change committed to free trade and

:21:58.:22:01.

getting us out of the EU. I hope that we make we have a government

:22:02.:22:04.

committed to free trade and getting us out of the EU. I hope that we

:22:05.:22:08.

make we get the trade aspect of Brexit that and free to conduct the

:22:09.:22:15.

EU and free to. That is more important than anything else. We

:22:16.:22:18.

still have access to the single market... What terms would be

:22:19.:22:24.

acceptable for access? I think a deal can and will be done and I'm

:22:25.:22:27.

very encouraged by some of the noises that are coming out, not so

:22:28.:22:31.

much from the bureaucrats in Brussels but the Government since

:22:32.:22:34.

agreements with the rest of the world. That is more important than

:22:35.:22:36.

anything else. We still have access to the single market... What terms

:22:37.:22:39.

would be acceptable for access? I think a deal can and will be done

:22:40.:22:42.

and I'm very encouraged by some of the noises that are coming out, not

:22:43.:22:45.

so much from the bureaucrats in Brussels

:22:46.:22:57.

but the market. I don't see that is a downside. The difference is we

:22:58.:23:04.

won't be a member of the single market,

:23:05.:23:18.

because if you remember, in charge of the member states. The Italians

:23:19.:23:21.

and Angela Merkel are making encouraging sounds and I am

:23:22.:23:23.

confident Theresa May will deliver. We won't have access, we will have

:23:24.:23:26.

access, but not access on the same terms and conditions as now, that

:23:27.:23:28.

cannot happen, can it? British companies won't be bound by single

:23:29.:23:31.

market rules unless they are selling to the single market. I don't see

:23:32.:23:33.

that is a downside. The difference is we won't be a member of the

:23:34.:23:36.

single market, because if you remember, the single market, subject

:23:37.:23:38.

to rulings of the European Court. The terms cannot be as good as they

:23:39.:23:41.

are at the moment? You have on your desk and iPad which was probably

:23:42.:23:43.

assembled using California design in China. None of those countries is

:23:44.:23:46.

part of the single market. We don't have a free trade agreement yet with

:23:47.:23:49.

those countries. It is possible to buy and sell stuff from countries

:23:50.:23:51.

without having trade deals. You have to make sure you get the right kind

:23:52.:23:54.

of trade deal. If it is one in China. None of those countries is

:23:55.:23:57.

part of the single market. We don't have a free trade agreement yet with

:23:58.:24:00.

those countries. It is possible to buy and sell stuff from countries

:24:01.:24:02.

without having trade deals. You have to make sure you get the right kind

:24:03.:24:05.

of trade deal. If it is TTIP, it's not worth doing. Genuinely Liam Fox

:24:06.:24:08.

is keen on that, I think we will see some spectacular gains in our

:24:09.:24:10.

ability to trade globally. OK, we can go to Bournemouth now. Nigel

:24:11.:24:13.

Farage is starting to the stage with the applause of the party

:24:14.:24:15.

conference. Always popular with the rank and file of Ukip. Coming to

:24:16.:24:18.

give his final speech, at least for now anyway. He has been in and out

:24:19.:24:21.

of the leadership trade and Liam Fox is keen on that, I think we will see

:24:22.:24:24.

some spectacular gains in our ability to trade globally. OK, we

:24:25.:24:26.

can go to Bournemouth now. Nigel Farage is starting to the stage with

:24:27.:24:28.

the applause of the party conference. Always popular with the

:24:29.:24:31.

rank and file of Ukip. Coming to give his final speech, at least for

:24:32.:24:34.

now anyway. He has been in and out of the leadership. As for now, a new

:24:35.:24:37.

leader is being elected and will be announced this Nigel Farage gets to

:24:38.:24:39.

Ukip conference to make his in Bournemouth at the Ukip conference

:24:40.:24:42.

to make his closing remarks to the and the wider public. Seems to be

:24:43.:24:44.

struggling a bit to and the wider public. Seems to be struggling a bit

:24:45.:24:47.

to, such is the crash of the media to get of may have a party with only

:24:48.:24:51.

one MP but he is a household he may have a party with only one MP but he

:24:52.:24:54.

is a household name. Up leaders who have many party leaders who have had

:24:55.:24:57.

a major influence on British politics in modern times. Let us

:24:58.:25:00.

hear from MPs and he has had a major influence on British politics in

:25:01.:25:02.

modern times. Let us hear from Nigel -- Nigel Farage as he makes his

:25:03.:25:04.

swansong to the Ukip party conference. Wow. Thank you, thank

:25:05.:25:13.

you, thank you. Well, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for that

:25:14.:25:19.

fantastic welcome. We did it, we got our country back! And we would not

:25:20.:25:26.

have done it without you, the People's Army of Ukip, and I'm very,

:25:27.:25:33.

very proud of every single one of you. Thank you. APPLAUSE

:25:34.:25:41.

The events of June 23 by three or 3:30am in the morning, when we

:25:42.:25:50.

realised we would win it, felt to me like a fairy tale, frankly, that had

:25:51.:25:54.

come true. Because this has been a very long journey indeed. 25 years

:25:55.:26:04.

ago I joined the antifederalists league. Not many people can say

:26:05.:26:09.

that, because there weren't many of us! Then in 1993 it became Ukip, and

:26:10.:26:16.

I said to myself, it doesn't matter that all my friends and family and

:26:17.:26:22.

business colleagues think I've gone mad, it doesn't matter to me that

:26:23.:26:28.

history says it's impossible to get a new political party off the ground

:26:29.:26:32.

in this country. To me it was very simple, all those years ago, it was

:26:33.:26:37.

a matter of principle. I believed we should govern our own country.

:26:38.:26:38.

APPLAUSE Six weeks, six weeks after the party

:26:39.:26:52.

had been formed, the Conservative member of Parliament in Eastleigh

:26:53.:26:55.

died overnight and there was a by-election.

:26:56.:26:58.

I thought, in for a penny, in for a pound, and I volunteered and was the

:26:59.:27:03.

first-ever adopted candidate of the UK Independence party. And I went

:27:04.:27:10.

out there and I campaigned and I did my best, and I can tell you, on the

:27:11.:27:17.

night of the result, by a crushing clear margin of 164 votes I beat the

:27:18.:27:23.

late great screaming Lord such and didn't come last.

:27:24.:27:28.

It was kind of difficult to get more than 1% in a by-election for us in

:27:29.:27:36.

those days. But things changed in 1999 with the advent of proportional

:27:37.:27:42.

representation for the European elections. No wonder thought we had

:27:43.:27:46.

a chance. I always did. I will never forget that night, when three of us

:27:47.:27:51.

were elected and Ukip was just beginning to get on, in real terms,

:27:52.:27:55.

the political map. I will never forget that feeling, it was an

:27:56.:27:59.

amazing feeling. I was interviewed, my first ever live interview was

:28:00.:28:06.

from iridium. Of course, I had no media training or anything like

:28:07.:28:12.

that. It was a live interview at 1:30am and Phil said to me,

:28:13.:28:15.

congratulations Nigel, you said you are going to do it and you have. But

:28:16.:28:20.

next week, he said, you will be off on Eurostar to the European

:28:21.:28:24.

Parliament and you will find it never rending round of invitations

:28:25.:28:29.

to lunches, it dinners, champagne receptions. Do you, he asked me,

:28:30.:28:35.

think you will become corrupted by the lifestyle? I replied live on

:28:36.:28:38.

air, no, I've always lived like that! APPLAUSE

:28:39.:28:49.

At least it was true! We went on for year after year,

:28:50.:29:00.

being part of Ukip, it's like a big Dipper ride, successes, dramatic

:29:01.:29:06.

failures, all the things that happen within any political party. But we

:29:07.:29:10.

first really got onto the political big-time early in 2013. Early in

:29:11.:29:18.

2013, when suddenly the British public realised that what we had to

:29:19.:29:22.

say about the taboo subject, the subject that you are not supposed to

:29:23.:29:28.

discuss in polite company. The subject that new Labour made even

:29:29.:29:34.

raising it you were committing a criminal offence. We were not

:29:35.:29:38.

frightened to talk honestly and openly about the need for sensible

:29:39.:29:44.

immigration into this country, and we talked about it. APPLAUSE

:29:45.:29:51.

And we talked about and it rapidly became the number one issue in

:29:52.:29:54.

British politics and nobody else would even touch the subject.

:29:55.:29:57.

They couldn't touch the subject because they were all committed to

:29:58.:30:01.

membership of European union, which meant the free movement of up to 500

:30:02.:30:06.

million people. The Eastleigh by-election, suddenly we got a big

:30:07.:30:11.

score. We then went into the county elections of that year and I

:30:12.:30:16.

remember, I was due in Millbank, number four Millbank, where all the

:30:17.:30:22.

broadcasters are. I was due to do an interview about Ukip overnight

:30:23.:30:26.

getting 23% of the national vote. As I got about 100 yards away from the

:30:27.:30:31.

entrance, I saw a big throng of cameramen and photographers, and I

:30:32.:30:36.

thought, crikey, something really big must have happened. LAUGHTER

:30:37.:30:42.

And I was quite oblivious to just what we'd done. We've gone on from

:30:43.:30:48.

there, we won the European elections in 2014. APPLAUSE

:30:49.:30:56.

The first party that was an Labour or Tory to win a national election

:30:57.:31:05.

since 1906. -- that was not Labour or Tory. Without us, there would

:31:06.:31:09.

have been no referendum. APPLAUSE

:31:10.:31:18.

Without you, without you and the people's army, there would have been

:31:19.:31:30.

no campaign and together we have changed the course of British

:31:31.:31:38.

history. And we've brought down a Prime Minister.

:31:39.:31:44.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE And we've got rid of the Chancellor.

:31:45.:31:51.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE I forget what I called him now! And

:31:52.:31:55.

we've got rid of a European Commissioner. I said four years

:31:56.:32:04.

ago... I predicted that Ukip would cause an earthquake in British

:32:05.:32:09.

politics. Well, we have. We have. APPLAUSE

:32:10.:32:18.

So the question is, what now? We have a new Prime Minister, who has

:32:19.:32:29.

said that Brexit means Brexit. A new Prime Minister who, when she

:32:30.:32:33.

started, looked to be very sure-footed on this issue. But I

:32:34.:32:36.

have a feeling that things are beginning to change. When I saw her

:32:37.:32:43.

at the G20 making her speech afterwards, she said that the

:32:44.:32:47.

British people voted in the referendum for some control of

:32:48.:32:55.

immigration from the European Union. No, Prime Minister. We voted to take

:32:56.:32:59.

back control of our borders, simple as.

:33:00.:33:01.

APPLAUSE And we have Cabinet ministers like

:33:02.:33:15.

the Home Secretary still fighting the referendum, suggesting last

:33:16.:33:19.

weekend that it might cost us 50 quid to get these are to go on a

:33:20.:33:28.

booze to Calais. -- to get a visa. Half this cabinet did not only

:33:29.:33:31.

failed to support the winning side in the referendum but it seems to me

:33:32.:33:34.

they want to do their utmost to keep us part of the single market. There

:33:35.:33:40.

is going to be a great political battle ahead and my concern would be

:33:41.:33:44.

this - with Labour in the mess that it's in, and, boy, it is in a mess,

:33:45.:33:51.

isn't it, a leadership election going on and yet there is no

:33:52.:33:55.

conversation with the half of Labour voters or ball in the Midlands or

:33:56.:34:00.

the north that voted for Brexit, but with Labour in trouble and the

:34:01.:34:07.

Conservatives perhaps heading towards 2020 in a very comfortable

:34:08.:34:10.

and easy position, the temptation on the Prime Minister will be to go for

:34:11.:34:16.

a soft Brexit, as opposed to a hard Brexit. We can be very proud of the

:34:17.:34:22.

fact that we won the war but we now must win the peace and the only

:34:23.:34:27.

mechanism to put pressure on the Government to keep the debate live

:34:28.:34:32.

and make sure that those 17.4 million people get what they voted

:34:33.:34:37.

for is for Ukip to be healthy and for Ukip to be strong.

:34:38.:34:38.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE We will find out at 1:30pm who our

:34:39.:34:57.

new bid is and I wish them - I'm guessing it's going to be a her but

:34:58.:35:02.

we'll see - I wish them the very best of luck, and my job is not to

:35:03.:35:07.

meddle. My job is not to try and influence. My job will be, if that

:35:08.:35:11.

leader wants any help and advise them, make no mistake about it, I am

:35:12.:35:16.

still foursquare behind this party and its aims.

:35:17.:35:17.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE Steve Crowther has stood beside me

:35:18.:35:32.

for six years as chairman of the party and if you think being leader

:35:33.:35:36.

of Ukip is difficult, you want to try being chairman of Ukip! And I

:35:37.:35:41.

have to say that if, at some point in time, Ukip do get recognised for

:35:42.:35:50.

their contribution to British political life - and bearing in mind

:35:51.:35:54.

that the Liberal Democrats have over 100 life peers in the House of Lords

:35:55.:36:00.

- if anything like that was to come out of life, then I think Steve

:36:01.:36:06.

really ought to be top of our list for everything you've done for this

:36:07.:36:09.

party. APPLAUSE

:36:10.:36:17.

Steve talked about reform, he talked about change. Remember this - Ukip

:36:18.:36:22.

was a grassroots political party. Ukip didn't have, in the 1990s, any

:36:23.:36:27.

well-known national figures. It didn't even have until 1999 any

:36:28.:36:33.

elected representatives. It was a grassroots party and we chose to

:36:34.:36:36.

manage ourselves through National Executive Committee, including

:36:37.:36:41.

volunteers. And that was fine then but we've moved on, haven't we?

:36:42.:36:46.

We're now the third biggest political party in this country. We

:36:47.:36:49.

have to change our management structures and we have to charge

:36:50.:36:56.

because one of the problems of success is that it brings people

:36:57.:37:00.

into the party who, perhaps, don't do it for altruistic aims for the

:37:01.:37:06.

country or its people but perhaps are more motivated by their own

:37:07.:37:10.

professional careers in politics. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

:37:11.:37:18.

So, there are things that needs to change. But in essence, in essence,

:37:19.:37:25.

I know from that referendum campaign and since that this party is united.

:37:26.:37:33.

I know this party is strong. You've only got a look at the by-elections

:37:34.:37:38.

week after week in Kent to see that since the referendum, Ukip is

:37:39.:37:41.

winning and there are millions of people out there who now identify as

:37:42.:37:48.

Ukip voters. They believe in us, they trust us, they think we're

:37:49.:37:53.

speaking up for them, and the fact that we've changed the centre of

:37:54.:37:56.

gravity in British politics, the fact that many of the things that

:37:57.:37:59.

we've campaigned on, whether it is grammar schools or foreign aid or

:38:00.:38:03.

whatever it may be, the fact the others are talking about it doesn't

:38:04.:38:08.

mean they're going to deliver it, and it is us that has to keep

:38:09.:38:13.

pushing all of those agendas. Not only are there millions of people

:38:14.:38:18.

out there that feel loyal to us but I don't think that the harvest of

:38:19.:38:22.

votes that we could potentially get from the Labour Party has really

:38:23.:38:24.

even started yet. In many ways, Jeremy Corbyn is a

:38:25.:38:41.

very decent unprincipled man -- decent and principled. But he

:38:42.:38:44.

doesn't believe in Britain. He doesn't even want to sing the

:38:45.:38:47.

national anthem. He flunked it, didn't he, when it came to the

:38:48.:38:52.

referendum? And I think we've got fantastic potential in Wales, the

:38:53.:38:55.

Midlands and the North and elsewhere, in picking up Labour

:38:56.:38:59.

votes. And believe me, if Brexit doesn't mean Brexit, then I think

:39:00.:39:06.

there will be a very large number of Conservatives who will say, "There

:39:07.:39:11.

is only one party that we can support", and I think we'll judge

:39:12.:39:15.

whether Brexit means Brexit, for me, on three very simple measures. By

:39:16.:39:22.

the time next general election comes along, will we have back our

:39:23.:39:25.

territorial fishing waters around the coast the United Kingdom?

:39:26.:39:33.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE Will we be outside of the single

:39:34.:39:42.

market, so that the 90 descent of our businesses that don't trade with

:39:43.:39:45.

Europe don't get regulated by Europe? -- 90%. And above all, the

:39:46.:39:53.

acid test of Brexit, the only time we will really know... You might

:39:54.:39:57.

have seen this before, actually! The only time we will know that Brexit

:39:58.:40:01.

means Brexit is when that has been put in the bin and we get back a

:40:02.:40:05.

British passport! CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

:40:06.:40:20.

And I have a feeling they're not going to deliver all of that, and

:40:21.:40:29.

I'm certain they won't deliver it unless Ukip is strong and fighting

:40:30.:40:34.

hard in every single constituency in this country. As I say, we won the

:40:35.:40:40.

war, we must now win the peace. For my part, today closes the chapter on

:40:41.:40:49.

what has been a pretty extraordinary few years. I honestly, looking back,

:40:50.:40:56.

could never really have dreamt we would achieve what we have. I have

:40:57.:41:04.

put absolutely all of me into this. APPLAUSE

:41:05.:41:17.

I literally couldn't have worked any harder or couldn't have been more

:41:18.:41:27.

determined. In a sense, I guess it's been my life's work to try to help

:41:28.:41:32.

get this party to this point. I frankly don't think I can do any

:41:33.:41:37.

more. I think, folks, I've done my bit.

:41:38.:41:38.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE And as I... But I'm not giving up on

:41:39.:41:53.

politics completely. As I say, I will support the new leader. I'm

:41:54.:41:58.

going to continue to lead a group in the European Parliament.

:41:59.:42:03.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE Sitting next to John Claude Juncker!

:42:04.:42:09.

And making my constructive contributions. And I intend this

:42:10.:42:20.

autumn to travel around some other European capitals to try and help

:42:21.:42:25.

independence and democracy movement in those countries, to.

:42:26.:42:37.

And who knows, I may even go back to the United States of America at some

:42:38.:42:45.

point between now... So I'm going to be engaged in political life without

:42:46.:42:51.

leading a political party and its going to leave me freer, less

:42:52.:42:57.

constrained LAUGHTER

:42:58.:43:03.

from now on, I'm really going to speak my mind.

:43:04.:43:06.

APPLAUSE I said as I toured the country on

:43:07.:43:21.

that wonderful open top bus and met thousands of you out there... I

:43:22.:43:27.

said, "I want my country back" and now, folks, I want my life back. I

:43:28.:43:34.

want to thank everybody for the massive contribution that so many

:43:35.:43:37.

thousands of you have made to help me in doing this job, to helping us

:43:38.:43:42.

change the course of British history. Thank you.

:43:43.:43:45.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE STUDIO: Well, we think the speech

:43:46.:44:01.

has come to an. It was interesting, he didn't end on

:44:02.:44:07.

a massive prorogation, it ended in quite a distinctive way. It was a

:44:08.:44:15.

speech of Mr Farage's greatest hits. Winning the last European elections,

:44:16.:44:24.

with more MEPs by far than any other party, getting nearly 4 million

:44:25.:44:28.

votes in the general election, culminating, of course, in forcing

:44:29.:44:32.

the Tories to have the referendum and then winning that referendum for

:44:33.:44:38.

Brexit. He said Ukip still had a future and we can summarise that is

:44:39.:44:42.

keeping the Government's feet to the fire to make sure it gets a hard

:44:43.:44:48.

Brexit deal in the coming negotiations. "We've won the war, we

:44:49.:44:56.

must now win the peace," said Mr Farage, and it was interesting that

:44:57.:44:59.

he point of the party in the direction of what he called the

:45:00.:45:03.

harvest of votes from the Labour Party that was in its grasp, I think

:45:04.:45:07.

referring to the number of seats in the North of England where the

:45:08.:45:11.

current Labour leadership is not that popular and where Ukip is

:45:12.:45:16.

second in a number of these constituencies. That would seem to

:45:17.:45:22.

be Mr Farage's target. It is his advice for the future leader. He

:45:23.:45:27.

says he's still going to be around. He said to much laughter that he was

:45:28.:45:31.

for once going to speak his mind in the future, where's I think most

:45:32.:45:35.

Ukip party members will think that what they liked about Mr Farage was

:45:36.:45:39.

that he did speak his mind, often in a way that was outside the

:45:40.:45:44.

Westminster consensus and the Westminster bubble, as it is often

:45:45.:45:49.

called. So that was Nigel Farage giving his final speech as leader to

:45:50.:45:54.

the Ukip conference in Bournemouth. Quite a short speech. Other party

:45:55.:45:59.

leaders could take notes on that! Douglas Carswell, your thoughts?

:46:00.:46:04.

Credit where it's due, he pushed for a referendum. Credit where it's due.

:46:05.:46:15.

How big media you think there is for Ukip, these are his words but my

:46:16.:46:20.

words, but I think it sums up what you say, to keep the Government's

:46:21.:46:25.

fee to the fire when it comes to the Brexit negotiations? It is

:46:26.:46:29.

important, and we need to make sure, particularly in seats where Labour

:46:30.:46:33.

MPs haven't reconciled themselves to the referendum outcome, we'd need to

:46:34.:46:37.

be the force prepared to do that. There is a post-Brexit agenda for us

:46:38.:46:41.

as well and I hope our new leader will see us develop a post Brexit

:46:42.:46:45.

agenda on issues other than immigration as well.

:46:46.:46:47.

Let's get further reaction now from the Ukip MEP Tim Aker -

:46:48.:46:50.

Welcome to the programme. Now that your side has won the referendum,

:46:51.:47:05.

what is the point of Ukip? Well, to keep the Government's feet to the

:47:06.:47:09.

fire and make sure Brexit means Brexit. Only a few weeks ago Theresa

:47:10.:47:14.

May said this result means we should have only some control over

:47:15.:47:18.

immigration, when it was meant to be the Government at Westminster

:47:19.:47:21.

deciding what the policy on immigration should be. If we are in

:47:22.:47:26.

the position now where we can shape our future, post-referendum and make

:47:27.:47:30.

sure we get the Brexit deal with the people wanted, gives Ukip are very

:47:31.:47:34.

strong arm. How much video have the Government won't deliver on what's

:47:35.:47:42.

being called a hard Brexit? I'm worried that the shambles of the

:47:43.:47:46.

Labour Party will allow them to go soft on it, but I think there are

:47:47.:47:51.

some genuine Eurosceptics that have been promoted that have to deliver

:47:52.:47:55.

now. It's on their careers whether they do it or not, and their

:47:56.:47:59.

reputation, and they will be judged by it. Other than that, is that

:48:00.:48:04.

really the sole purpose of Ukip now, to try and keep the Government

:48:05.:48:08.

honest when it comes to the Brexit negotiations? That is it? Still a

:48:09.:48:16.

one note song? I think at the national level you could say that,

:48:17.:48:19.

but we are seeing, since the referendum, Ukip wins at local

:48:20.:48:25.

government level. In my constituency of Berwick we topped the poll for

:48:26.:48:28.

the third year running and are getting more people coming to us

:48:29.:48:31.

from all parties voting for us because of the help we have given

:48:32.:48:37.

them. I think if Ukip branches on council groups take that message

:48:38.:48:44.

out, we can help you and you with problems on things like housing,

:48:45.:48:47.

like the Lib Dems used to do, that Douglas does very well in his

:48:48.:48:53.

constituency constituency, then we can get more votes. Douglas Carswell

:48:54.:49:00.

wants to turn you into a free libertarian society, how do you

:49:01.:49:04.

think that will resonate in Labour constituencies in the North of

:49:05.:49:08.

England? I think when Douglas talks about direct democracy on giving

:49:09.:49:11.

people more choice over their lives, I don't think anyone could disagree

:49:12.:49:15.

with that. I think we have to make sure the Conservatives don't go down

:49:16.:49:19.

the routes they did where they tried to cut tax credits, where we're

:49:20.:49:24.

going to get a lot of people complaining over this page to state

:49:25.:49:29.

policy, which is basically a poor tax, a levy on council tenants, when

:49:30.:49:32.

you think they are the people you would want to tax the least. It is

:49:33.:49:36.

consistent with our policies to take the poorest out of income tax

:49:37.:49:40.

altogether and I look forward to discussing the way forward with

:49:41.:49:43.

Douglas and other colleagues. It doesn't sound like you are exactly

:49:44.:49:46.

singing from the same hymn sheet. And it didn't sound Mr Mr Farage

:49:47.:49:52.

cares whether Douglas Carswell stays in the party not, what is your view?

:49:53.:49:59.

Douglas is an Essex MP. I went up to campaign for him and he came down

:50:00.:50:04.

when I won my seat in a valley. It would be foolish to say there

:50:05.:50:06.

haven't been disagreements, but you don't win the next war by fighting

:50:07.:50:11.

the last one. We will get a new leader today. I want to see the

:50:12.:50:14.

party come together, re-energise for the fight ahead. Our viewers will

:50:15.:50:20.

have noticed, and I'm sure Douglas Carswell noticed as well, you didn't

:50:21.:50:25.

answer my question by saying, of course we regard Mr Carswell as an

:50:26.:50:29.

integral part of the future of Ukip and want him to stay. Why didn't you

:50:30.:50:36.

say that? I didn't say that because it's a

:50:37.:50:42.

given. He is the Ukip MP and I look forward to sitting next him in the

:50:43.:50:46.

House of Commons after the next election. Well said! Are you in

:50:47.:50:52.

danger of blowing an historic opportunity here? Nigel Farage in

:50:53.:50:58.

his speech referred to the harvest of Labour votes that was within

:50:59.:51:04.

Ukip's grasp, referring most of all, I think, to the North of England,

:51:05.:51:08.

where the greatest inroads could be made. And yet we've had your former

:51:09.:51:14.

head of media on this programme this morning saying you are in a

:51:15.:51:19.

catastrophic mess. She's defected. The former party director has

:51:20.:51:25.

defected. You have a minor civil war going on in Wales. Your inability to

:51:26.:51:33.

get your act together, you could blow it, couldn't you?

:51:34.:51:39.

All parties have this, and is very sad to see Alex go. She is very

:51:40.:51:43.

talented and I wish all the best. She is welcome back, if she wants to

:51:44.:51:47.

return at any time in the future. All parties have this. It's been

:51:48.:51:52.

very disappointing to see. On the upside, we are winning by-elections,

:51:53.:51:57.

we won one in Maidstone and won a council seat in Basildon before the

:51:58.:52:02.

referendum. There are ups as well as downs. All parties get this, it is

:52:03.:52:06.

unfortunate, but I hope this conference will bring everyone

:52:07.:52:09.

together, that we can look at the big opportunities ahead for us,

:52:10.:52:13.

unite behind a new leader and make those inroads. It is not just in

:52:14.:52:18.

Labour seats. Brexit managed to get people who haven't voted in any

:52:19.:52:21.

election before to the ballot box, they registered and voted and know

:52:22.:52:25.

where their polling station is. I'm sure we can get more MPs that the

:52:26.:52:29.

next election. Stick with us if you will. I want us to go to our

:52:30.:52:34.

reporter in Bournemouth because she has some activists who were

:52:35.:52:38.

listening to this speech. We will see what they made of and then come

:52:39.:52:39.

back to you. It was quite an emotional moment. It

:52:40.:52:48.

brought a bit of a tear to your eye, didn't it, that speech? It certainly

:52:49.:52:53.

did. Nigel will be a hard act to follow. We are sorry he's going,

:52:54.:52:58.

really. Is he really going, that is the big question, do you think he's

:52:59.:53:02.

really going? No. You are not the first person to say that to me. Why

:53:03.:53:08.

not? He has spent so much time in politics, you can't just walk away

:53:09.:53:12.

from it. He has too much charisma. It is the end of an era as far as

:53:13.:53:17.

Ukip is concerned. Are you a bit worried? We will find out this

:53:18.:53:20.

afternoon on your next leader is, well that worry you? There is nobody

:53:21.:53:26.

in Conservatives or Labour who can stand up to Nigel's share presence.

:53:27.:53:30.

Whoever the new leader is doesn't have a chance. All we can do is

:53:31.:53:34.

support whoever it is an move on from here. I will leave you to it

:53:35.:53:40.

and work my way through the crowd. We have Bill Etheridge, one of the

:53:41.:53:43.

candidates for leadership. What did you make of the speech? Typical

:53:44.:53:49.

Nigel, great. Lots of laughs and passion and a tear in the eye at the

:53:50.:53:53.

end. His voice broke a bit at the end? He has been a great leader for

:53:54.:53:59.

us and achieved wonderful things. We find out in an hour or so who the

:54:00.:54:04.

next leader is, it could be you. How would you come out after a speech by

:54:05.:54:08.

that? It's like being the best man after a good father of the bride

:54:09.:54:12.

speech? You can never compete with Nigel, it's impossible. All I intend

:54:13.:54:16.

to do is thank everyone and outline the positive future and policies.

:54:17.:54:22.

New policies, economics. We for one battle and won it, let's move onto

:54:23.:54:26.

the next. We are a proper political blood, not just about the EU. We

:54:27.:54:32.

will see. -- proper political party. Over here we have some more people

:54:33.:54:35.

who want to tell me what they thought of Nigel Farage's speech.

:54:36.:54:39.

His speech was fantastic but in my opinion I don't think you should be

:54:40.:54:43.

leaving, I think you should still be on stage and forcing the issue. We

:54:44.:54:47.

only halfway there. Lots of people have been telling me that over the

:54:48.:54:51.

course of the conference, even this morning. Is he going? At the moment

:54:52.:54:57.

we are under the impression the years. But let's hope he isn't! He

:54:58.:55:02.

has done it before. Let's hope he does it again because we need him.

:55:03.:55:09.

The words that Brexit means Brexit by Theresa May are being watered

:55:10.:55:13.

down day by day and the fight is not over. We won the battle but haven't

:55:14.:55:17.

got the piece. It is a bit like Libya and Iraq. You can't just go in

:55:18.:55:21.

there and win the war, you have to make sure you have a plan B

:55:22.:55:24.

afterwards. I think we have a long way to go to get the Brexit 17

:55:25.:55:30.

million people voted for. There wasn't a plan B in Iraq. The view of

:55:31.:55:34.

some of the activists and delegates, they don't think Nigel Farage is

:55:35.:55:39.

necessarily going anywhere, at least not without making a comeback at

:55:40.:55:43.

some stage. STUDIO: On the assumption he is going, in an hour

:55:44.:55:46.

we will know who the new leader will be, who is it going to be? I think

:55:47.:55:51.

the smart money would be an Diane James. The best-known name here

:55:52.:55:55.

within Ukip, the best-known person who would be ready to take on. Even

:55:56.:56:01.

talking to tell Etheridge, I think essentially that's what even some of

:56:02.:56:06.

the candidates here think. There is a suggestion Lisa Duffy, another of

:56:07.:56:10.

the candidates, she might make it a bit tough for Diane James. She is

:56:11.:56:16.

the candidate that the likes Suzanne Evans was backing, on a slightly

:56:17.:56:22.

different camp to Nigel Farage. The camp, essentially, that's not the

:56:23.:56:27.

Nigel Farage royalists. A suggestion she may have done well enough. Not

:56:28.:56:31.

sure, to be honest. Diane James didn't go to any of the hustings.

:56:32.:56:35.

There is a sense among the delegates she could have made a bit more than

:56:36.:56:38.

ever but she ran her own campaign and did travel the country and do

:56:39.:56:43.

her own speeches and campaigning. As I say, we've talked a lot about the

:56:44.:56:48.

divisions within his party. Those are essentially the two front

:56:49.:56:52.

runners but I think it will be Diane James. Thank you. The Ukip faithful

:56:53.:57:00.

in Bournemouth. Let me check we still have Tim Aker, yes, we do. You

:57:01.:57:05.

are a supporter of Diane James. The favourite to win. But if some of the

:57:06.:57:10.

lowest potential hanging fruit for you are among working-class

:57:11.:57:16.

disillusioned Labour voters in the north, is Diane James not a little

:57:17.:57:21.

bit to Home Counties to appeal to the North, to southern? Well... We

:57:22.:57:28.

have a former city trader who is popular in the north as he is in the

:57:29.:57:34.

south that just left as the leader. When people see Diane James they get

:57:35.:57:37.

to know her and know her agenda, anywhere is open to Ukip now. We

:57:38.:57:42.

couldn't see her. A great team of candidates. We didn't get to see her

:57:43.:57:48.

because my understanding is she didn't do hustings or television

:57:49.:57:52.

appearances in this leadership campaign, why is that? She came to

:57:53.:57:58.

Thurrock and spoke to about 80 members, which is more than some of

:57:59.:58:03.

the hustings where getting. She didn't do the dates... I don't

:58:04.:58:10.

believe so. Why? -- debates. I personally think if I had been in

:58:11.:58:14.

her position I would have gone to some of them. But voting is closed,

:58:15.:58:20.

people have made up her mind and if people didn't want to vote for a

:58:21.:58:22.

because she didn't turn up, they won't have voted for her. We will

:58:23.:58:26.

know how that goes with the result in half an hour's time. One of the

:58:27.:58:31.

benefits of a leadership campaign is those who are not widely known in

:58:32.:58:36.

the country become more widely known, because there are lots of

:58:37.:58:40.

debates, TV cameras are fair, the radio is there, you get big

:58:41.:58:51.

audiences. Most people in Britain hadn't heard of Owen Smith until the

:58:52.:58:54.

Labour leadership contest, a lot more people know him now. The same

:58:55.:58:56.

could have been said for Diane James. Not nearly as well-known as

:58:57.:58:59.

Nigel Farage but she chose, for the wider public, to remain invisible

:59:00.:59:02.

during the campaign. It seems a strange strategy for someone who

:59:03.:59:10.

wants to put Ukip further the map. She was meeting members, holding

:59:11.:59:14.

events where members were free to go to and talking to the electorate,

:59:15.:59:18.

which were Ukip members. If she does win, you will be seeing a lot more

:59:19.:59:22.

of her. When the public know her, get to see her platform and

:59:23.:59:26.

priorities, I think they will seek Ukip will go from a 13% party to 23%

:59:27.:59:33.

party, especially if Theresa May doesn't give us the Brexit 17.4

:59:34.:59:38.

million people voted for. Tim Aker in Bournemouth, thank you for

:59:39.:59:42.

joining us. Douglas Carswell, we learn that Ukip's largest donor is

:59:43.:59:47.

setting up a new campaign group. Describing it as a right-wing

:59:48.:59:56.

momentum, describing the grass roots movement of the Labour left, is a

:59:57.:00:00.

good thing? I'm not sure momentum is the model to follow. They have

:00:01.:00:05.

created a situation where some very shrill and certain people in social

:00:06.:00:09.

media to assert things that take the party, in the case of the Labour

:00:10.:00:13.

Party, in a direction which makes it less appealing to swing voters. But

:00:14.:00:18.

if a private individual member of the party wants to set up an

:00:19.:00:22.

initiative, great, but ultimately if you are part of the party you have

:00:23.:00:23.

to support the party. If he's talking about a right wing

:00:24.:00:32.

Momentum, I would suggest encapsulated in that... It is a

:00:33.:00:39.

shorthand, I understand... It certainly, I would suggest, doesn't

:00:40.:00:42.

imply support for the direction that you would like to take Ukip. I'm in

:00:43.:00:47.

favour of the direction of winning over voters and having won voters in

:00:48.:00:52.

the past two Parliamentary elections as the Ukip candidate, I would

:00:53.:00:56.

suggest that, actually, shrill certainty is not the way forward. If

:00:57.:01:01.

you look at what the Labour Momentum movement is doing, it is making the

:01:02.:01:04.

Labour Party less appealing and less able to win seats. If we were to

:01:05.:01:10.

imitate that, we would be imitating all that is bad about the left. We

:01:11.:01:13.

should be offering something very, very different and that is offering

:01:14.:01:19.

people the alternative to the shrill certainty is that party activists

:01:20.:01:24.

sometimes espouse. Nathan Gill, who was, I think, your leader in Wales,

:01:25.:01:29.

though things change so much with Ukip it is hard to Kubot, who I

:01:30.:01:33.

think is now an independent in the Welsh Assembly, he said there needs

:01:34.:01:38.

to be, quote, a bloodbath in Ukip after this leadership election, that

:01:39.:01:43.

there are who have senior positions who are, quote, not fit to run a

:01:44.:01:48.

village fete. I'm not sure it is helpful to talk about a bloodbath.

:01:49.:01:52.

We certainly need reform, we need to change. It would be helped lift we

:01:53.:01:56.

had party strategists who knew how to count, it would be helpful if we

:01:57.:02:00.

have systems in place... Who has not been able to count? Look at our

:02:01.:02:05.

success in the last general election. Our strategy was not

:02:06.:02:09.

entirely successful. It is helpful, I think, if you have a party where

:02:10.:02:12.

the structures on the discipline in the organisation are bigger than any

:02:13.:02:17.

one person. That allows you to have rigour and consistency. Many

:02:18.:02:21.

occasions during the EU referendum, the by-elections, the General

:02:22.:02:26.

Election, I was struck by the central importance of data. Politics

:02:27.:02:30.

isn't about just winging it, about deciding what appeals to you, it is

:02:31.:02:33.

about looking at hard data and looking at the maths and seeing

:02:34.:02:38.

where it is you need to put your message and your resources, and

:02:39.:02:42.

that's something that many of the big parties are very bad at doing.

:02:43.:02:47.

That's what they are doing in America at the moment. They are very

:02:48.:02:51.

professional at that. I'd like to think we did a bit of that in

:02:52.:02:54.

Clacton and I like to think that you can do this and it is a much more

:02:55.:02:57.

effective way of winning votes than just making noise on Facebook. Do

:02:58.:03:02.

you think, if it is Diane James, will you get on better with her than

:03:03.:03:07.

Nigel Farage? Very much so. She came to campaign in the election. The

:03:08.:03:11.

thing I have in common with is, both of us have stood in by-elections, I

:03:12.:03:15.

won, she lost, but we understand what needs to be done. Thanks for

:03:16.:03:17.

with us. And there's full coverage

:03:18.:03:19.

of today's Ukip conference, including the result

:03:20.:03:21.

of their leadership election at 1.30 this afternoon,

:03:22.:03:22.

on BBC Parliament. Coming up in a moment,

:03:23.:03:24.

it's our regular look at what's been For now, it's time to say goodbye

:03:25.:03:28.

to Douglas Carswell. So, for the next half an hour we're

:03:29.:03:34.

going to be focussing on Europe. We'll be discussing the EU's

:03:35.:03:38.

position on Brexit negotiations, proposals for EU armed forces

:03:39.:03:40.

and whether the Commission's plan for free Wi-Fi can help

:03:41.:03:43.

re-invigorate the European Union. First, though, here's our guide

:03:44.:03:49.

to the latest from Europe We learned that the EU's auditors

:03:50.:03:51.

opposed Romania and Bulgaria joining the EU in 2006, over concerns

:03:52.:04:03.

they couldn't spend funds properly. The two countries joined

:04:04.:04:13.

anyway in 2007. It's Budapest versus

:04:14.:04:15.

the Grand Duchy, as the Foreign Minister of Luxembourg suggested

:04:16.:04:17.

Hungary should be suspended, maybe even thrown out

:04:18.:04:19.

of the union, for failing European Commission President

:04:20.:04:23.

Jean-Claude Juncker used his State of the Union Address to warn that

:04:24.:04:29.

Brexit presented an existential crisis to the EU, but he had big

:04:30.:04:34.

ideas too, like free EU wide file -- Wi-Fi for every city

:04:35.:04:45.

and village by 2020. And goodbye Frontex,

:04:46.:04:47.

hello European Border Member states have approved

:04:48.:04:49.

the creation of a new 1500 strong force, which will take

:04:50.:04:53.

to the seas in October. And with us for the next 30

:04:54.:05:01.

minutes, I've been joined by the Conservative MEP

:05:02.:05:04.

Jacqueline Foster and Let's take a look at one of those

:05:05.:05:06.

stories in more detail - that's plans by the European

:05:07.:05:13.

Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker for free

:05:14.:05:19.

Wi-Fi in every village, Is it too cynical just to look at

:05:20.:05:33.

that as a gimmick? Not at all because I think it was a gimmick. We

:05:34.:05:37.

have somebody who is in charge of the European Commission standing up

:05:38.:05:42.

doing a state of the union address. We have challenges on immigration,

:05:43.:05:46.

we have member states with problems, banking problems, in Italy,

:05:47.:05:53.

unemployment. A key player has left the European Union, ie we are

:05:54.:05:57.

leaving, the UK, and then partway through the speech he starts talking

:05:58.:06:02.

about Wi-Fi and, ultimately, it's all about more Europe and I just

:06:03.:06:06.

found it absolutely astonishing, so it's not at all cynical. What powers

:06:07.:06:13.

does the European Commission have to deliver free Wi-Fi to every village

:06:14.:06:19.

in Europe? They don't have the power. Very few, if any. It would be

:06:20.:06:26.

nice if we could have it! It would be nice. I don't think we're going

:06:27.:06:30.

to get free Wi-Fi in every public park in 20 countries for 120 million

:06:31.:06:37.

euros. 27 countries now! Or even five countries, to be honest, for

:06:38.:06:40.

that kind of money. Clearly, it was a bit of a gimmick, although, to be

:06:41.:06:46.

fair, the speech is kind of the equivalent of a party conference

:06:47.:06:52.

speech... So not serious? It's a bit of a laundry list, it's got to have

:06:53.:06:56.

something for everybody. He did talk about serious themes and he also

:06:57.:07:01.

threw in a gimmick. But I've got to say, coming hard on the heels of the

:07:02.:07:08.

more serious and equally unedifying climb-down on roaming charges from

:07:09.:07:12.

last week, it seemed like an odd place for them to go. Well that

:07:13.:07:18.

seems... One of the things we heard during the referendum, one of the

:07:19.:07:22.

benefits of the EU, would be the roaming charges, which used to be

:07:23.:07:27.

huge. But I saw earlier this week that apparently Mr Juncker, because

:07:28.:07:33.

he hadn't been properly consulted other papers have come to him

:07:34.:07:37.

properly, that these plans to improve the roaming charges have

:07:38.:07:43.

been sidelined. Is that right? Possibly. I rest my case. I've been

:07:44.:07:50.

there for an awfully long time, since 1999 and, fine, so a committee

:07:51.:07:53.

looked at roaming charges and how expensive they were. Then there was

:07:54.:07:59.

the consideration if it was OK for us if we were travelling that our

:08:00.:08:03.

mobiles were a bit cheaper, but were the citizens of the United Kingdom

:08:04.:08:06.

then paying for that, because their costs might go up? So, really, if I

:08:07.:08:12.

may just bring this back, whether it was roaming charges or Wi-Fi, this

:08:13.:08:19.

was a state of the union speech, with huge issues, huge pressures on

:08:20.:08:23.

security, defence, immigration, and he's talking about this. It was

:08:24.:08:30.

absolutely ludicrous and if we had the President of the United States

:08:31.:08:34.

doing a state of the union, or a British Prime Minister doing the

:08:35.:08:37.

state of the United Kingdom or another leader in another country, I

:08:38.:08:41.

doubt whether any of them would be talking about Wi-Fi. I rest my case

:08:42.:08:46.

on that one. To be fair, though, I remember one of, or probably more

:08:47.:08:51.

than one of Tony Blair's at the conference speeches where he

:08:52.:08:54.

couldn't do any wrong was the most popular man of the country and every

:08:55.:09:00.

speech he gave was at Epoque making triumph and they were always

:09:01.:09:03.

littered with a complete of every school and an information

:09:04.:09:06.

superhighway, broadband infrastructure. But that was a party

:09:07.:09:10.

conference. Was completely different. I think they are quite

:09:11.:09:16.

similar. We shall see. I guess neither of you are going to take on

:09:17.:09:20.

a bet of 100 quid that we won't have free Wi-Fi in 2020.

:09:21.:09:24.

So, the leaders of EU member states are meeting

:09:25.:09:26.

All the leaders, that is, except Theresa May.

:09:27.:09:29.

It's the first summit to exclude the UK since June's referendum

:09:30.:09:33.

and will see the ongoing EU members begin to consider what the Union

:09:34.:09:36.

will look like after the United Kingdom leaves.

:09:37.:09:47.

Clearly there's much to get through before that

:09:48.:09:49.

happens, so what do we know about the EU's negotiating position?

:09:50.:09:54.

Well, the European Commission has appointed former French

:09:55.:09:56.

commissioner Michel Barnier as its chief negotiator.

:09:57.:10:01.

The European Parliament has its own negotiator, too -

:10:02.:10:03.

former Belgian PM and EU federalist Guy Verhofstadt.

:10:04.:10:08.

EU commission president Jean-Claude Juncker

:10:09.:10:10.

told MEPs on Wednesday that the UK cannot be part of the single market

:10:11.:10:18.

He also said that he wanted Brexit talks to start

:10:19.:10:21.

But former EU Council President Herman Van Rompuy told the BBC that

:10:22.:10:28.

substantive negotiations are unlikely to start

:10:29.:10:29.

until after the German elections next year.

:10:30.:10:40.

They are not until September next year.

:10:41.:10:43.

Let's talk to our Europe correspondent Damian Grammaticus,

:10:44.:10:45.

who is at that meeting in Bratislava.

:10:46.:10:47.

The purpose of this meeting originally was to begin to sketch

:10:48.:10:55.

out what the EU 27's negotiation position would be but I get the

:10:56.:11:01.

impression there are so many other problems crowding in on the EU at

:11:02.:11:05.

the moment that that is not the only subject being discussed there.

:11:06.:11:12.

You're right, it is not really the subject being discussed at all. They

:11:13.:11:17.

are going to discuss the political fallout, if you like, from the

:11:18.:11:22.

Brexit wrote but what they'd always said, actually, was that this summit

:11:23.:11:28.

was going to be about... Not about Brexit itself but about charting a

:11:29.:11:32.

way forward for the EU after Brexit, so this was very clearly meant to be

:11:33.:11:39.

meant as a signal that 27 nations without the UK here, without a

:11:40.:11:43.

British Prime Minister, are meeting around the table, setting the agenda

:11:44.:11:46.

for the future, and that's going to be broad brush strokes but very

:11:47.:11:52.

clearly what they want to do is to try to address the underlying issues

:11:53.:11:58.

that led to Brexit, so in the broadest possible level, what they

:11:59.:12:01.

mean by that is that they see a threat from this rising tide of euro

:12:02.:12:05.

scepticism and they want to reinvigorate the EU, try to

:12:06.:12:11.

reconnect with European people. At around that table now of 27, with

:12:12.:12:16.

Britain not being there, it would be fair to say that there are deep

:12:17.:12:20.

divisions among the 27. There is a group of East Europeans who take a

:12:21.:12:24.

very different view from what you might call the club Med group which,

:12:25.:12:29.

in turn, is very different from the Nordic and Northern group, which

:12:30.:12:33.

sometimes can include France or France may sometimes be in the Club

:12:34.:12:37.

Med group, even to such a stage that we've just had this week the

:12:38.:12:42.

Luxembourg Foreign Minister call for the expulsion of Hungary. So even

:12:43.:12:46.

without us, they're not that united, are they? No, and the leaders

:12:47.:12:52.

themselves know this. They themselves have all been morphing

:12:53.:12:56.

into their castle saying that what they have to do is show a message of

:12:57.:13:00.

unity to try to find the areas they agree on and interesting you

:13:01.:13:03.

mentioned Oxenberg - the Luxembourg Prime Minister walking in today

:13:04.:13:07.

said, we need to remember that we agree on 90% of things and there is

:13:08.:13:13.

10% are things we don't agree. He was dismissing the idea that there

:13:14.:13:17.

is this crisis in the EU. He was saying, keep an eye on the bigger

:13:18.:13:21.

picture, on the fact that in many areas the EU delivers for people but

:13:22.:13:26.

in the areas that matter in some ways at the minute, whether crises

:13:27.:13:32.

are focused, migration and border security, economic issues, growth

:13:33.:13:36.

and jobs, there are very different views, as you say, between the more

:13:37.:13:40.

austerity minded North and the southern European countries and also

:13:41.:13:44.

between the East, who want more controls on migration and are not

:13:45.:13:50.

willing to take refugee quotas and the bigger countries in the west

:13:51.:13:53.

that want them. All sorts of divisions. I must say the castle

:13:54.:13:59.

looks brilliant behind you! We'll let you get on and find out what's

:14:00.:14:01.

happening in the rooms there. We're joined now by the Ukip

:14:02.:14:05.

MEP William Dartmouth. He is part of our discussion. There

:14:06.:14:17.

he is. Good day! It looks like a lovely day down in Bournemouth.

:14:18.:14:22.

Stick with us. It is a beautiful day. You ought to be here! They

:14:23.:14:26.

don't let me out very often these days, I'm afraid! Let me ask you, is

:14:27.:14:32.

it not, Sion Simon, going to take a long time? The British Government is

:14:33.:14:36.

just at the foothills of what its negotiating position will be. We

:14:37.:14:40.

still have no idea. And the Europeans may actually be further

:14:41.:14:44.

behind, that they have no idea what their negotiating position will be.

:14:45.:14:49.

I've never come across anything in my... I'm 47 and I've never seen

:14:50.:14:53.

anything in which everybody has got so little idea, still, on getting on

:14:54.:14:59.

for three months of the referendum. I don't think the British Government

:15:00.:15:02.

has got the slightest idea what it's doing, neither the Prime Minister

:15:03.:15:06.

nor any of the secretaries of State has said anything coherent about

:15:07.:15:09.

Brexit at all and I don't think it's any different at all in the

:15:10.:15:13.

commission or the other member states. Everyone I talk to, it is

:15:14.:15:17.

complete chaos and blackness and confusion. It has really see maybe

:15:18.:15:20.

wonder what it used to be like in the war and I've concluded that

:15:21.:15:23.

there was probably a much greater sense of purpose and understanding

:15:24.:15:27.

what we were doing actually in wartime than this Brexit.

:15:28.:15:33.

William Dartmouth, are you concerned about the lack of clarity? How long

:15:34.:15:40.

can this continue? The principal reason there is a lack of clarity is

:15:41.:15:45.

Cameron was born government irresponsibly made no preparations

:15:46.:15:51.

at all. -- Osborne but hopefully one day I get some coverage on the BBC

:15:52.:15:56.

for what I've written. What is necessary if there should be a

:15:57.:16:01.

supremacy of English law, controlling our borders and a return

:16:02.:16:08.

of fishing and no contributions to the European Union budget. As an

:16:09.:16:11.

absolute minimum. Otherwise it isn't a proper Brexit at all, which people

:16:12.:16:17.

voted for. Is that English law going to be supreme in Scotland as well? I

:16:18.:16:24.

think we can have an interesting discussion about the difference

:16:25.:16:28.

between Scots and English law. I think the Scots would want their law

:16:29.:16:35.

to prevail over European law. You may have to go back and rewrite that

:16:36.:16:40.

bit of your paper, before we talk about it any further, to get it

:16:41.:16:46.

right. At the moment we seem to be in a situation where, particularly

:16:47.:16:50.

on the European side, there is a kind of sticking out... Not a

:16:51.:16:53.

bargaining position, but a bargaining attitude. Michel Barnier,

:16:54.:17:02.

a well-known anti-Brit is appointed. Guy Verhofstadt, who loves to tangle

:17:03.:17:08.

with the Brits as well, and Mr Jean-Claude Younger. Eyes and

:17:09.:17:11.

suggest all of this is pretty meaningless because it is the

:17:12.:17:16.

Council of ministers tasked with the negotiations, and above all that

:17:17.:17:22.

means Mr Tusk and Angela Merkel. I think that is a fair point to make.

:17:23.:17:27.

I think what is particularly ridiculous about all of this is the

:17:28.:17:35.

voters have spoken. Whether other member states, countries, like it or

:17:36.:17:39.

not, that was the decision taken by the UK. I do not believe it's in the

:17:40.:17:44.

interests of the other member states to end up having a virtual civil war

:17:45.:17:48.

with the UK, determining what the outcomes should be from the

:17:49.:17:54.

negotiation. I feel slightly reassured in terms of Donald Tusk

:17:55.:17:58.

and their meeting today. I think genuinely the other member states,

:17:59.:18:01.

albeit with different pressures, want to try and get some decent

:18:02.:18:05.

conclusions. But when you look at the message, and if we put

:18:06.:18:12.

Jean-Claude Juncker one side. As you said, Michel Barnier to be the

:18:13.:18:16.

negotiator from the commission's side. And Guy Verhofstadt, who can't

:18:17.:18:27.

stand us, who can't stand us even lessons are conservative political

:18:28.:18:30.

group that wiped out in the last European election. Guy Verhofstadt,

:18:31.:18:37.

it's like putting an arsonist in charge of a firework factory. If we

:18:38.:18:41.

want to be grown up on this we need a good, sensible, well constructive

:18:42.:18:44.

debate from all parties. There is a lot riding on this from our partners

:18:45.:18:49.

as well. Let me go back to William Dartmouth in Bournemouth. Is there

:18:50.:18:53.

not a danger, from your point of view, at the moment there is clearly

:18:54.:18:58.

a vacuum, a vacuum on the British side and the European side as well.

:18:59.:19:02.

Let's stick to the British side. The longer you allow a vacuum to

:19:03.:19:08.

persist, isn't there a danger that forces start to fill it over which

:19:09.:19:12.

you have no control and the Government has no control, and that

:19:13.:19:16.

people begin to get disillusioned and wonder, is it going to happen or

:19:17.:19:20.

isn't it going to happen? How long can we go on like this? That is

:19:21.:19:27.

actually a very perceptive question. First of all, the appointment of

:19:28.:19:35.

Michel Barnier and Guy Verhofstadt is an attempt to fill in that vacuum

:19:36.:19:40.

and not very helpful at all. It is posturing for position that doesn't

:19:41.:19:44.

belong in a serious way. The fact of the matter is that because no

:19:45.:19:48.

preparations were made, it is in one sense reasonable that a little bit

:19:49.:19:53.

of time is taken. But it shouldn't really be so very much longer. I

:19:54.:19:57.

must make the point that we should commit to the UK leaving the single

:19:58.:20:04.

market, because as long as we stay in the single market, the 85% or

:20:05.:20:08.

more of the British economy, which doesn't export to the EU countries,

:20:09.:20:15.

is nonetheless bound by the whole panoply of EU regulation. We will

:20:16.:20:23.

leave it there. I think that is very important it is clearly understood.

:20:24.:20:28.

You have made it clear. No doubt that will be part of the debate if

:20:29.:20:33.

and when the Government finally tells us what its bargaining

:20:34.:20:36.

position is going to be as talks get underway. William Dartmouth in

:20:37.:20:42.

Bournemouth, thank you. It's got its own court,

:20:43.:20:44.

civil service and parliament - With the UK's imminent departure,

:20:45.:20:46.

there's a renewed push for further integration amongst

:20:47.:20:51.

the remaining members - including proposals

:20:52.:20:52.

for EU armed forces. The prospect of an EU

:20:53.:20:54.

army was a hot topic You are being asked to make

:20:55.:21:00.

a decision that is irreversible. We wake up on Friday,

:21:01.:21:06.

we don't like it and we're They lied about the European army,

:21:07.:21:08.

because we've got a veto over that. Our European partners were not

:21:09.:21:13.

going to change course. They're not changing

:21:14.:21:15.

course on anything. They're still progressing

:21:16.:21:17.

with the European army plans. Everything suggests ever closer

:21:18.:21:20.

union is still on the cards. The UK always stood in the way

:21:21.:21:23.

of greater military cooperation within the EU but June's referendum

:21:24.:21:28.

result has removed a major obstacle, clearing the way for European

:21:29.:21:32.

leaders keen on more military integration to pursue

:21:33.:21:34.

their ambitions. TRANSLATION: We should work

:21:35.:21:41.

towards a common military force and this should be

:21:42.:21:46.

in complement with Nato. Forces from separate member states

:21:47.:21:51.

are already working together. Operation Sophia tackling people

:21:52.:21:55.

smuggling in the Mediterranean Those backing more integration argue

:21:56.:21:56.

it would be more effective against threats both

:21:57.:22:03.

within and beyond EU borders. I think the first challenge we face

:22:04.:22:07.

is terrorism but it's also crises, and very deep crises,

:22:08.:22:11.

in the Middle East, near East, These are challenges that we can

:22:12.:22:15.

tackle as Europeans And could closer coordination lead

:22:16.:22:22.

to an EU army? I really think that national armies

:22:23.:22:30.

are not from this time any more. I don't think Germany

:22:31.:22:34.

will invade Belgium, so my opinion is that

:22:35.:22:36.

really in the long term, it should be a European defence,

:22:37.:22:40.

a European army, with one headquarters, one military command

:22:41.:22:43.

and one political control. Now Britain with its veto is out

:22:44.:22:48.

of the way, other countries who are opposed to closer military

:22:49.:22:51.

integration, including historically neutral Sweden

:22:52.:22:54.

and Ireland, are concerned. The European Union is

:22:55.:22:59.

a series of member states who cooperate with each other

:23:00.:23:02.

on various different areas. We're not all the same,

:23:03.:23:06.

we're not homogenous. We have different histories,

:23:07.:23:11.

and therefore having the single foreign policy,

:23:12.:23:14.

single defence policy, it doesn't make sense and in fact,

:23:15.:23:16.

actually puts citizens Ireland's history is

:23:17.:23:18.

as a neutral country. Friday's summit in Bratislava

:23:19.:23:23.

is likely to address faster deployment of forces overseas,

:23:24.:23:26.

coordinating strategic assets such as planes and helicopters,

:23:27.:23:30.

and sharing data from But getting more information

:23:31.:23:32.

from senior European politicians I just want to know,

:23:33.:23:35.

following the Brexit vote, We're working on the European

:23:36.:23:45.

defence together. And the idea of fighting under

:23:46.:23:51.

the EU flag, rather than separate Our armies are already

:23:52.:23:54.

coordinating in the fields, in the battlefield, and,

:23:55.:24:01.

you know, we're talking about dying for Europe,

:24:02.:24:04.

fighting for Europe, but what were we fighting

:24:05.:24:07.

for when we were fighting It was not under the European flag,

:24:08.:24:10.

it was under the Nato flag. The people who are in the military,

:24:11.:24:16.

they know what they Military cooperation could just

:24:17.:24:18.

be the start. Now that the UK with its many fears

:24:19.:24:26.

and objections is leaving, the EU may look for ever closer

:24:27.:24:30.

union in other areas, too. Emily reporting bringing you the

:24:31.:24:43.

news in that report that Germany is not going to invade Belgium. They

:24:44.:24:50.

can rest easy in Brussels after that scoop. When interviewers like myself

:24:51.:24:54.

raise the prospect of a European army, more integration during the

:24:55.:25:01.

referendum, we were assured it was a pipe dream, it was Brexit

:25:02.:25:06.

propaganda, it was never going to happen. Well, there are moves

:25:07.:25:11.

towards it. I never thought it wouldn't necessarily happen. I think

:25:12.:25:16.

they've moved very quickly. Again, it sounds like another gimmick. It's

:25:17.:25:24.

a headline grabber and the only thing it would do is undermine Nato.

:25:25.:25:29.

I think that the European Union have had defence on the cheap for

:25:30.:25:33.

decades. From the Americans. Absolutely. Everything the Americans

:25:34.:25:37.

do is wrong, but by the same token they were quite happy for the

:25:38.:25:41.

Americans to assist. There are many member states who have contributed

:25:42.:25:46.

financially, I think, very little to any budget, and so the fact they

:25:47.:25:51.

want their own military headquarters, which would undermine

:25:52.:25:55.

Nato, when we already have great cooperation, I think again is just

:25:56.:25:59.

another story. The Americans are putting Europe under great pressure

:26:00.:26:03.

to contribute more. America contributes 70% of Nato's

:26:04.:26:07.

capabilities, higher than in the Cold War, even though the threats

:26:08.:26:11.

are not the same. I don't understand how Europe could ever do that and

:26:12.:26:16.

afford to build a separate command structure and common defence force?

:26:17.:26:21.

I don't understand it either. I think the discussion that the

:26:22.:26:25.

Americans want is a reasonable one and it should be about European

:26:26.:26:29.

countries, member states of the EU and non-member states, European

:26:30.:26:33.

countries paying an equal share intimate are making a fairer

:26:34.:26:37.

contribution to Nato. But I think that is less likely post Brexit.

:26:38.:26:43.

Take us out and it's more likely it will happen. Surely if there was a

:26:44.:26:48.

European force it wouldn't be a European force but a French force?

:26:49.:26:51.

Without Britain the only real military that matters in Europe is

:26:52.:26:56.

the French? They would dominate the German forces. Half of them don't

:26:57.:26:59.

work, don't spend money on defence. The French, other than ourselves,

:27:00.:27:05.

are the only European country with formidable defence capabilities?

:27:06.:27:09.

Absolutely, and France had nothing to do with Nato for years. They've

:27:10.:27:14.

only recently come back in. I think with the French... I think they are

:27:15.:27:18.

quite nervous about all of this. French? Absolutely. They will be

:27:19.:27:24.

dumped with a lot of this. Unless this exit strategy is done in such a

:27:25.:27:28.

grown-up way, where Britain will still play a key part in the

:27:29.:27:36.

security of Europe. I think they could have a headquarters in

:27:37.:27:43.

uniforms but without having a significant army. It is on the

:27:44.:27:46.

agenda. That is all for now, goodbye.

:27:47.:27:57.

SOUNDS TO THE TUNE OF: In The Hall Of The Mountain King by Grieg

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We follow five amateur orchestras from all across the country,

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