15/09/2016 Daily Politics


15/09/2016

Jo Coburn is joined by the former culture minister Margaret Hodge to discuss Theresa May giving the Hinkley nuclear power station the go-ahead and the Labour party leadership.


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Transcript


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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She's certainly given it plenty of thought.

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Now Theresa May's decided to give the green light

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to the first new UK nuclear plant for 20 years.

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After much deliberation, the government says the French

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and the Chinese will build the Hinckley Point power station.

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Although ministers say they've imposed tough new conditions.

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Labour's leadership contest enters the final lap.

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We'll be asking how Owen Smith measured up against Jeremy Corbyn

:01:02.:01:05.

Ukip's got its own problems with party unity.

:01:06.:01:11.

We've been to Wales to see if a new leader can build

:01:12.:01:14.

And it's not exactly Oxford v Cambridge,

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but we've been to see MPs and peers putting their oars in

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for their very own boat race on the Thames.

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And with us for the whole of the programme today

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She was a minister under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown,

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but is probably best known for grilling public figures

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as head of a high profile Commons Committee.

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One anonymous member of her committee once compared her

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Which, believe it or not, was meant to be a compliment... of sorts.

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Let's begin today with the government's decision

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to go ahead with the construction of a nuclear power station

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The ?18 billion project, which is being financed by the French

:02:03.:02:08.

and the Chinese, was put on hold by Theresa May soon after she became

:02:09.:02:12.

Prime Minister amid reports that she had concerns

:02:13.:02:15.

about Chinese involvement in Britain's nuclear power industry.

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Although ministers say they will impose "significant new safeguards"

:02:21.:02:25.

Here's the Business Secretary Greg Clark speaking earlier.

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It's an important upgrade of our energy supplies

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for the next six years, contributing 7% of clean,

:02:36.:02:39.

reliable energy and a major step forward for our new

:02:40.:02:47.

nuclear power programme and an ?18 billion investment in the economy,

:02:48.:02:50.

So, the government's made its mind up.

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What, if anything, has changed since the decision was put on hold?

:02:58.:03:00.

Let's talk to our correspondent Ben Wright.

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Has anything changed? We've heard them talking about tough new

:03:07.:03:13.

safeguards. Do we know what they might be? It doesn't seem as if a

:03:14.:03:18.

great deal's changed so far. In terms of the structure of this deal.

:03:19.:03:22.

The Chinese involvement, the price that will be paid for electricity.

:03:23.:03:26.

There is this change around the question of the UK having a special

:03:27.:03:30.

share option in the future that would enable them to block the sale

:03:31.:03:34.

of a stake that other companies like EDF have in future infrastructure

:03:35.:03:39.

projects like this. Number Ten say this is quite a big change in

:03:40.:03:42.

securing Britain's national security going forward. But I think there

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will be many who will ask after this remarkably, after this big surprise

:03:50.:03:55.

in this huge deal, was it worth it or is this a lot of political

:03:56.:03:59.

theatre to show Theresa May is pressing the reset button, really?

:04:00.:04:02.

There will be some who are asking that questions today. It will go aid

:04:03.:04:08.

head. There's something about the French having to rubber-stamp it or

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EDF having to stamp it? It will go ahead? It will. Theresa May spoke to

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President Hollande about this just before the deal was announced once

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again. The beep mats between China and the UK have -- diplomats between

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China and the UK have talked about it. Labour have asked for guarantees

:04:30.:04:34.

that the Bradwell station that is now likely to be built, that

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controversial Chinese power plant, they're asking for guarantees that

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means Chinese workers won't couple to the UK to take care of that. Also

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the price being paid. This will go ahead despite this surprising

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two-month pause we've seen. Thank you.

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We're joined now by the former Energy Secretary Ed Davey.

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He was the coalition minister who struck the deal

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Welcome to the Daily Politics. We've had this pause. Do you think there's

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anything different in this deal from what you can tell? Eyed like to hear

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the details. This special share they're talking about to help on

:05:15.:05:19.

national security issues was something I proposed when we were in

:05:20.:05:22.

Government. The Liberal Democrats were arguing for it. Unfortunately

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George Osborne said he didn't want it and overruled us. So, I'm glad to

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see it. You're pleased? I think it's the sensible thing and why I

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proposed it a few years ago. How surprised were you about the pause?

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Quite surprised. I think they've managed to annoy the Chinese, the

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French, annoy other people investing. There thereby an extra

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political risk for people wanting to invest in the UK. It's not been

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Clifford and very well handled by Theresa May and her team. If it

:05:56.:06:00.

results in a project which will help us tackle climate change through low

:06:01.:06:04.

carbon and has this extra national security guarantee with a special

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share, it is a the right thing to do. You were the minister in

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coalition who wanted this deal. What about those saying the Hinkley Point

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should be abandoned? I'm not surprised. Tim far lop has always

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been sceptical about nuclear power. He's the leader. Is he wrong? I

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think I he is. If you're going to tackle climate change we need a lot

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of low carbon electricity from wind, sole auricular, tidal. I'm the

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British minister who commissioned another renewable power in history.

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I love renewables. I don't think they can do it alone. We need

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electricity for heating, transport and power. That's a lot of green

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electricity. Nuclear can help as part of a mix. Do you agree with

:06:56.:07:01.

that? We need nuclear as part of the mix. This is a Liberal Democrat who

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believes and loves renewables. Ed knows more than I am. I'm skeptical

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about this particular issuement we looked at it when I was chair of the

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Public Accounts Committee. It is hugely expensive. According to the

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recent national audit figures they are worse than the ones you showed

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at the top of the programme Jo. The subsidy to ED if will be ?30

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billion. The prize is double the price of electricity as it is now

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because the price of oil has gone down. The other thing is, this is a

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big, big project. The Finns are trying to build a similar

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capability. It was supposed to be completed from 2009. Now it will be

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finished in 2018. This tends to be in the van they project area. I

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would rather see smaller nuclear projects and other capabilities to

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make sure the lights are kept on. You would like to see it abandoned?

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I'm a sceptic. Not because imI'm anti-nuclear. He discussed the price

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at the time. It seems incredibly hi when you look at her forms of

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energy. ?92.50 at mega watts per hour. How can that be good for the

:08:18.:08:22.

taxpayer? I don't know. No-one can know if it's value for money. We

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only start paying for electricity if it's build. Let's say that's 2025

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and 9 contract last for 35 years, to know whether it is good for money,

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you have to know the price of electricity at that time and the

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price of carbon. Maybe Margaret and the National Audit Office know that,

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I don't know it. I'm afraid, I'm sorry, the reality is one has to

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take decisions in Government because it's not just price, you have to

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think about climate change which is criticalnd insecurity. The three

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together. We've had to invest in rue knewables at a higher price than

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this -- renewables. Ed, when you settle a price, you settle it

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against projections that your committeeists will undertake. Of

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course. But do you know what, the wholesale price of electricity has

:09:20.:09:22.

changed in two years by a lot. It changes all the time. The economists

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tell you that. Of course it changes all the time. Looking at today's

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figures, it looks acrazily expensive option. But that's the mistake

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you're making. Do you say you're making a stab in the dark? Can t

:09:41.:09:45.

could make other forms of energy cheaper? You're right, there are a

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lot of uncertainties in energy policy. Not just prices but what

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technology will do. You just don't know. Sometimes you have to come to

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a decision. Given this is the right for keeping the lights on, can plug

:09:59.:10:03.

their kettles on watch TV, given it is the right decision to tackle

:10:04.:10:09.

climate change, it is weird people say they know the price between 2025

:10:10.:10:15.

and 2060. It may not be the right decision to keep the lights on or

:10:16.:10:20.

given the speed at which technology's changes. What would you

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do? What I hear from experts, I accept Ed's more technical expertise

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than I have, what I heard is nuclear technology's changing much more

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quickly. There are smaller stations you can build much more rapidly.

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Make sure the lights are on better. What I also hear... That's not true.

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I also hear renewables are developing quickly, becoming cheaper

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more quickly. Solar is becoming more viable than it was a few years ago.

:10:53.:10:57.

Going for this big vanity project may not be the quality of what we

:10:58.:11:03.

want. I don't disagree with a lot of what you've said, Margaret. I'm a

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huge fan of solar, wind, tidal. Why not use those more? If we're going

:11:10.:11:15.

to tackle climate change seriously, the truth is, if you put all your

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eggs in one basket then you are putting a risk in the fight against

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climate change. I believe we should invest in all these low carbon

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technologies. The threat of climate Church of England is existential.

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When you last talked to me about this, it is a massive public

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subsidy? The policy of the coalition is nuclear would get no extra

:11:41.:11:44.

advantages over other forms of low carbon. It is a new subsidy? No

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extra support against others. If it is no subsidy against others... Hang

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on, Ed, it is an extra cost to the user. That's the point when we

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looked at all the investment, there's an 18% increase in the bills

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to the energy user in their bills from the capital investment. Do you

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believe the polluter should pay? Yeah. If you do you, and you look at

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the price of coal and gas, they should have a carbon #3r50is

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attached to them. Nobody when they discuss this does that. Coal and gas

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are causing climate change. They don't pay their true costs. If they

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did, renewables and nuclear would seem much more effective. I might

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agree with you on that one. Jeremy Corbyn was cheered

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by Labour MPs as he took on Theresa May over grammar schools

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at PMQs yesterday. But, in case you'd forgotten,

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he's still fighting a leadership a challenger backed by the majority

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of the parliamentary Labour Party. They held the final hustings of the

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contest last night on Sky News, and the exchanges

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were fairly tough. Do I regret the fact

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that some colleagues, including Owen, decided to resign

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from the Shadow Cabinet, hence we are having this

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leadership contest? I simply say to them -

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once this leadership contest is over, let's come together,

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let's come together and campaign How many seats do we need to win

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to beat the Tories? You know as well as I do

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we need to win at least 90? No, we don't, we need to win

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106, Jeremy. I worry that the leader

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of the Labour Party doesn't know how many seats we need

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to win from the Tories. I am just so angry at what the rest

:13:24.:13:27.

of the Labour Party We're joined now by the journalist

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Rachel Shabi, she's a supporter of Jeremy Corbyn, and Margaret Hodge

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is still with us, How did Owen Smith do? I have to be

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honest, I didn't watch the programme last night. Over All? I think he's

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doing extremely well. He's got better. The most important thing is

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there is a real distinction between the two of them. Owen Smith

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understands what the Labour Party was founded for, and that was to

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gain power and form Government. It was never founded as a pressure

:14:16.:14:19.

groupment there are plenty of other ways Rachel and others can spend

:14:20.:14:23.

their time in other avenues rather than being members of a pressure

:14:24.:14:27.

group. What do you say to that? How do you think Jeremy Corbyn did? I

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think both of the candidates in the leadership contest understand they

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want to be leaders of the party in order to get into power. Because

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what would be the point otherwise. People want to put their politics

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into power. Jeremy Corbyn wants and needs to be in power to effect all

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of kind of policy changes and transformations he wants to bring

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about and that have caused over half a million members to support his

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party. Not to be in a pressure group? Clearly not a pressure group,

:14:57.:15:00.

clearly a party that's in Parliament and wants to be in power. The

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interesting thing is, were that the case, I'm delighted to hear Rachel

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say that, he wouldn't be listening to a relatively small bunch of

:15:11.:15:14.

people... Are you talking about Momentum? He would be listening to

:15:15.:15:20.

the nine million people who voted Labour and in my constituency at the

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last election. Relating to their concerns and concerned with

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increasing the number of people who vote Labour next time. If you look

:15:28.:15:33.

at every opinion poll, every analysis done of his actual personal

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credibility, we are doing worse than we have ever done probably in our

:15:39.:15:40.

entire history. What do you say for that? You know

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the poll ratings are disastrous, the worst-ever for aide leer at this

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point. Jeremy Corbyn's personal ratings are 64 points behind Theresa

:15:55.:15:57.

May. Can Labour win a general election from that point? I think

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the most important thing to say is that the Labour Party has problems

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and is in crisis and that has nothing to do with the leader.

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Nothing to do with Jeremy Corbyn The Labour Party has struggled in

:16:10.:16:15.

elections, haemorrhaging voters, regardless of the leader. How long

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are you taking that back for? Tony Blair won three elections for a row.

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We were in Government for 13 years. The Labour Party has been

:16:24.:16:27.

haemorrhaging. Let Rachael finish. You are saying since Ed Miliband?

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I'm saying the Labour Party is in crisis, and that would be the case

:16:32.:16:34.

whoever was the leader and the truth of the matter is that neither of us

:16:35.:16:38.

knows, how Jeremy Corbyn would perform. Because we haven't seen

:16:39.:16:42.

what he could do. We haven't seen what he could do with a united

:16:43.:16:47.

party, with all the talents and capabilities of MPs like you, behind

:16:48.:16:51.

him. He haven't seen what he could do with 500,000 people supporting

:16:52.:16:55.

him in the party, the biggest membership of any party across

:16:56.:17:00.

Europe. When that group of people is galvanised ape put into effect in

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canvasses and campaigns and gets out and talks to people on the streets,

:17:04.:17:07.

we don't know what the result will be. Margaret... I talk to people all

:17:08.:17:16.

the time. Hang on, it is clear that Jeremy Corbyn is going to win the

:17:17.:17:19.

leadership election. Not necessarily. Lets Ayerza superhe has

:17:20.:17:25.

won it Not necessarily. If he does, is it time for MPs, Labour MPs who

:17:26.:17:30.

had no confidence in him before to unite behind him? I think what, you

:17:31.:17:34.

know, it is very difficult. I think ofry Member of Parliament will have

:17:35.:17:37.

to make their own decision. I'm afraid I'm in the camp that believes

:17:38.:17:45.

that Jeremy Corbyn with his policies. This is not in anyway

:17:46.:17:48.

personal. I have known and liked him personally. I think it is the camp

:17:49.:17:54.

from which he comes, I know #4i78 from the '80s, Jo, when you were

:17:55.:17:58.

first in television and I was active in politics. Their interest is not

:17:59.:18:02.

in gaining power, it is in destroying capitalism and trying to

:18:03.:18:05.

overthrow the current system. That's where they come from. Therefore, I

:18:06.:18:09.

shall always be in the camp on trying to secure a leadership in

:18:10.:18:13.

Parliament that actually brings... Can I say one other thing, if you

:18:14.:18:17.

have lost the support of over 80% of your Members of Parliament, from all

:18:18.:18:21.

whiches of the party, if all of them choose to resign, I think, actually

:18:22.:18:24.

the grown-up thing to do, the thing with integrity to do is to walk away

:18:25.:18:29.

and allow the party in Parliament to then have a leader that they can...

:18:30.:18:35.

He clearly is not doing that and hasn't up until now. In terms of

:18:36.:18:39.

unity, do you think that cause was helped by a leak of a list of Labour

:18:40.:18:43.

MPs who have been disloyal to Jeremy Corbyn, was then sort of let out by

:18:44.:18:50.

a member of the team. Will that help unify the Parliamentary Labour

:18:51.:18:52.

Party. I want to answer that question but I want to respond to

:18:53.:18:58.

that point. Destroy capitalism is quite a label to put on people whose

:18:59.:19:02.

politics are in line with a lot of popular thinking when it comes this

:19:03.:19:05.

things like investment in public infrastructure and the

:19:06.:19:08.

renationalisation of public services and fairer taxation, reducing

:19:09.:19:10.

inequality. Supporting the welfare state. I think those policies are

:19:11.:19:16.

actually quite reasonable. And the sort of policies that will resonate

:19:17.:19:20.

for people who struggle every day, as a result of the politics imposed

:19:21.:19:25.

by this current Government. They haven't resonated so far. Answer the

:19:26.:19:29.

question about the list of MPs. This was a mistake. It was devastating to

:19:30.:19:33.

see that happen, especially on the same day that we saw the Labour

:19:34.:19:37.

Party, how brilliant and effective an opposition it could be when it

:19:38.:19:40.

was united over a cause and with its leader. It was a mistake. It is

:19:41.:19:44.

important to remember that the campaign is very separate from the

:19:45.:19:48.

leadership office. The two have nothing to do with each other and

:19:49.:19:51.

while the campaign, of course it is trying to fight a leadership battle,

:19:52.:19:56.

is going to have that mentality about it, the leadership office and

:19:57.:20:00.

his team are not about battle any more, they are actually about unite

:20:01.:20:03.

and reconciliation. We can see that from the way... There is no

:20:04.:20:07.

crossover when the two. As I understand it, the two are in tact

:20:08.:20:12.

and now we can see the which is do. It is important for the Labour Party

:20:13.:20:15.

leadership to be now talking about... Doesn't it undermine Jeremy

:20:16.:20:19.

Corbyn's whole argument about a cinder, gentler politics and trying

:20:20.:20:22.

to unify and reach out to empoo. It did the opposite. I think it was a

:20:23.:20:27.

mistake and I think the campaign team swiftly realised the mistake

:20:28.:20:30.

and apologised for T I think Jeremy Corbyn's team is talking very much

:20:31.:20:33.

about unity. We saw him talking about unity last night in the debate

:20:34.:20:37.

with Owen Smith. That's where the party needs to be thinking right

:20:38.:20:41.

now. What about, then, the performance of Jeremy Corbyn at

:20:42.:20:48.

PMQs, it was his best PMQs. He won MMQs and there were lots of Labour

:20:49.:20:53.

MPs who don't support him Jeremy Corbyn, tweeting high praise of that

:20:54.:20:58.

performance yesterday. If he were to go on issues that unify the

:20:59.:21:01.

Parliamentary Labour Party, could there be cause for the two sides

:21:02.:21:05.

coming together? I think there is a lot of underlying values and

:21:06.:21:09.

policies on which probably Rachael and I agree, I agree it is a

:21:10.:21:13.

mistake. I think what is interesting, if you are a leader of

:21:14.:21:17.

a party, you are the leader of the parliamentary party as well as other

:21:18.:21:21.

parts of the party and every grouping has dissenters and people

:21:22.:21:24.

who have a different view. As the leader it is your job, actually, if

:21:25.:21:30.

somebody disagrees, you bring them in, you don't publicly admonish

:21:31.:21:35.

them. Which he didn't do. Which he has never done. To be honest, I

:21:36.:21:40.

don't make this distinction, the leader is the leader of the leader's

:21:41.:21:45.

office. He has to be responsible for all those working for him. He is

:21:46.:21:49.

also the candidate. He has to be responsible for the team working for

:21:50.:21:52.

him. To say it is somebody else's fault, it is not me I am eight Mr

:21:53.:21:58.

Nice Guy, I don't buy that. It is central to the whole of the way that

:21:59.:22:03.

the system operates, I'm afraid under Jeremy Corbyn. But whatever

:22:04.:22:06.

you think about it, obviously we are going to disagree with, that I

:22:07.:22:10.

separate the two. I think he has been talking about uniony. #r5rdless

:22:11.:22:14.

t doesn't matter, what matters now is getting the party to unite -- -

:22:15.:22:18.

regardless, it doesn't matter. It is about getting the party to unite.

:22:19.:22:22.

There was a discussion between Jeremy Corbyn and Owen Smith about

:22:23.:22:26.

how many seats they needed to win the next election. We can argue

:22:27.:22:29.

about the numbers another time. But as it stands to have a majority of

:22:30.:22:33.

one, Labour needs to win a seat like base I think stone with a Tory

:22:34.:22:37.

majority of 10,000. It has never had a Labour MP, do you think that's

:22:38.:22:40.

possible under Jeremy Corbyn? I think we are looking at a country

:22:41.:22:45.

that post-Brexit feels worried and insecure. We have the highest levels

:22:46.:22:49.

of inequality. People are worried daily about how they are going to

:22:50.:22:54.

make it from week-to-week... Sure but can they win a seat like basing

:22:55.:23:00.

stone With 500,000 peel behind Labour, campaigning, discussing the

:23:01.:23:03.

issues on the streets, maybe they can be persuaded. We don't know. All

:23:04.:23:05.

right. Thank you. It's not just Labour that's picking

:23:06.:23:08.

a new leader at the moment. The ballot for the next leader

:23:09.:23:11.

of Ukip closed just as we came on air, and the successor

:23:12.:23:14.

to Nigel Farage is due to be announced at the party

:23:15.:23:17.

conference tomorrow. the party's having a struggle to put

:23:18.:23:18.

on a united front. Ellie's been to Wales,

:23:19.:23:22.

where the party scored a major win in elections earlier this year,

:23:23.:23:25.

to find out more. Who do EU think you're kidding

:23:26.:23:28.

Mr Smith, This is what taking the fight

:23:29.:23:33.

to Labour looks like. Ukip campaigners outside

:23:34.:23:38.

the constituency office of the Labour Leadership

:23:39.:23:40.

contender Owen Smith. The party sees an opportunity in

:23:41.:23:42.

Labour heartlands where the vote to leave the EU

:23:43.:23:47.

was above the national average. As with most of the Welsh valleys,

:23:48.:23:54.

there's been a Labour MP here in Yet, there's evidence

:23:55.:23:57.

Ukip is making inroads. the party came second

:23:58.:24:02.

in the last general election. in this year's Welsh Assembly

:24:03.:24:06.

elections. But the challenge here will be

:24:07.:24:16.

convincing voters that Ukip still has a role following that

:24:17.:24:19.

Brexit vote. Perhaps, I think it might

:24:20.:24:23.

be the end of them. They seem a bit disjointed

:24:24.:24:26.

in Wales, don't they? Would you vote Ukip?

:24:27.:24:28.

No. Have you ever voted Ukip?

:24:29.:24:29.

No. Do you think Ukip can start

:24:30.:24:33.

winning here in Wales? Well, yes, I'd like to think

:24:34.:24:35.

they could, yeah. And there's another problem

:24:36.:24:40.

round the corner too. The internal divisions within Ukip

:24:41.:24:42.

have been well publicised. On the one side, you've those

:24:43.:24:45.

loyal to Nigel Farage. On the other, a camp of people who

:24:46.:24:50.

felt sidelined by his leadership. The likes of Douglas Carswell,

:24:51.:24:53.

the party's only MP. I'm told the two men haven't spoken

:24:54.:24:55.

since before the EU referendum. But if you think that's bad,

:24:56.:25:00.

welcome to the Welsh Assembly. He says he's the Ukip leader in

:25:01.:25:04.

Wales, but he's a Ukip MEP for Wales but that he sits as an independent

:25:05.:25:11.

on the Welsh Assembly. The reason for that is I just felt

:25:12.:25:16.

it was impossible to work within the group of some of the Assembly

:25:17.:25:19.

Members here. I didn't want to be

:25:20.:25:25.

associated with them. They were basically working

:25:26.:25:28.

against the party, the leadership. I felt it important to distance

:25:29.:25:31.

myself from them. He's talking in particular

:25:32.:25:35.

about Neil Hamilton. that he's no longer a member of the

:25:36.:25:37.

Ukip group in the Assembly. Hasn't had the courtesy to write

:25:38.:25:43.

to me to tell me that. His fundamental problem is he hasn't

:25:44.:25:46.

been able to get over the fact that he didn't have the confidence

:25:47.:25:50.

of his colleagues Doesn't reflect very well

:25:51.:25:52.

on the party, does it? No, it doesn't reflect

:25:53.:25:59.

very well on him. He doesn't exactly have a cuddly

:26:00.:26:01.

relationship with Nigel Farage. But he does have friends on the

:26:02.:26:03.

party's But allies of the leadership

:26:04.:26:05.

frontrunner Diane James, These people are not fit

:26:06.:26:08.

to run a village fate. So, whatever happens

:26:09.:26:18.

with the leadership on Friday, is there going to be

:26:19.:26:19.

a blood bath in Ukip? Some of it might be where people

:26:20.:26:22.

will just choose themselves to leave the party or to remove themselves

:26:23.:26:26.

from very public positions. But I think, ultimately,

:26:27.:26:30.

whoever the new leader is, you're going to need a team

:26:31.:26:32.

of people around you that you can trust and who are not going to spend

:26:33.:26:36.

the next two or three years back-stabbing you and

:26:37.:26:40.

trying to undermine you. The long-term success of Ukip

:26:41.:26:46.

will depend on decisions made in the coming weeks and months

:26:47.:26:49.

on policy, on personalities. The new leader will have

:26:50.:26:52.

a lot of work to do. Joining me now is Steve Stanbury,

:26:53.:26:58.

formerly Party Director of Ukip. Welcome to the programme. What do

:26:59.:27:08.

you make of what is going on in the party, in Wales, particularly? Well,

:27:09.:27:13.

Wales is a mess. Wales is very disorganised and lots of in-fighting

:27:14.:27:17.

but I think that really is just the I to have the iceberg and actually

:27:18.:27:22.

shows as there is a much wider, broader problem within Ukip in terms

:27:23.:27:26.

of competence, in terms of people, in terms of not having good

:27:27.:27:28.

candidates coming forward for the leadership. That has been a

:27:29.:27:33.

nightmare. Actually, Jo, I think the bigger problem is not about

:27:34.:27:37.

individuals and the factions, I think it is in terms of strategy and

:27:38.:27:43.

what Ukip does in the future. The big question is - does Ukip have a

:27:44.:27:48.

future s it relevant? Do you not think it is? I think really it's

:27:49.:27:55.

best days are behind T I think Ukip has set out, fundamentally to

:27:56.:27:59.

achieve what it was meant to do. Ukip's mission was to get a rev and

:28:00.:28:03.

to contribute to the winning of that referendum and Ukip has done that

:28:04.:28:06.

and done it well. But going forwards now, I think it is actually the

:28:07.:28:10.

Conservative Party that is better-placed to actually now

:28:11.:28:13.

deliver on Brexit and that's why, Jo, I have decided and I hope many

:28:14.:28:18.

of my colleagues will, that I'm actually leaving Ukip and rejoining

:28:19.:28:21.

the Conservative Party. That's it, it is over for you. You were a

:28:22.:28:25.

long-standing member of u ki. You feel they have achieved what they

:28:26.:28:28.

set out to do and you have left, defected? I have, I have gone back

:28:29.:28:32.

to the Conservative Party for a number of reasons. Ukip set out what

:28:33.:28:37.

it intended to do. The principal objective was to secure a

:28:38.:28:41.

referendum. Before David Cameron, in January 2013, before he gave that

:28:42.:28:43.

position, his position, the position of the Conservative Party was

:28:44.:28:46.

against a referendum, to not let the people have a say. The referendum

:28:47.:28:51.

was offered because of the pressure Ukip put on the Conservative Party.

:28:52.:28:56.

Ukip played a big and positive role and actually winning the referendum.

:28:57.:29:00.

Now, what we all need to do is deliver on Brexit. What I would say

:29:01.:29:05.

to many of my colleagues and friends in Ukip, is come home, come back to

:29:06.:29:09.

the Conservative Party, because that's where and how we can actually

:29:10.:29:11.

deliver on Brexit. That's the priority now. It is not very loyal

:29:12.:29:16.

of you, bearing in mind you have been part of this party which has

:29:17.:29:21.

achieved in your own words "actually having a referendum on the EU." Our

:29:22.:29:25.

relationship with the EU and achieved what you wanted, Brexit and

:29:26.:29:29.

now you are going to run off and jointed Conservatives again I don't

:29:30.:29:34.

think politics and parties should be looked at like brands, football

:29:35.:29:38.

teams. It is about ideas and change and the sort of country we want to

:29:39.:29:43.

have. Ukip's principles and policies in terms of giving the British

:29:44.:29:47.

people a say and becoming a solve governing country again, we have

:29:48.:29:50.

achieved that and now the best way to deliver on that... Is to go to

:29:51.:29:56.

the party that Theresa May was a Remainer. Gowering going into a

:29:57.:30:00.

party under a Prime Minister and leader who voted to Remain? Theresa

:30:01.:30:06.

May was always regarded as a very reluctant and sceptical Remainer.

:30:07.:30:09.

But look at her record and what she has said and what she is doing now

:30:10.:30:14.

already. I think her appointments in the Cabinet, a leading role for most

:30:15.:30:17.

of the Brexiteers, is really very good. I think Boris Johnson is an

:30:18.:30:22.

excellent choice for Foreign Secretary and I think there is going

:30:23.:30:25.

to be a lot of change in positive direction and also, I would say, the

:30:26.:30:30.

way in which other ways, subtle but important ways in which the

:30:31.:30:33.

Conservative Party is change a new education policy is great thing.

:30:34.:30:38.

Scepticism on our wasteful, grotesquely wasteless foreign aid

:30:39.:30:40.

budget. All is recovering core values that I believe will... I

:30:41.:30:44.

don't think they're getting rid of it at the moment. You think they are

:30:45.:30:50.

sticking to that spending. From GDP of 0.7%. Have you told Nigel Farage?

:30:51.:30:56.

We are literally the second people to know? What did he say?

:30:57.:31:02.

Disappointed but I think a lot of people... Did he try to make you

:31:03.:31:08.

stay? No. I think a lot of people will follow in my footsteps. I kip

:31:09.:31:12.

played a really important role in terms of our national story, our

:31:13.:31:19.

national politics. We've got O'This wonderful place where we are a

:31:20.:31:23.

self-governing country. The Conservative Party can be the only

:31:24.:31:26.

party now that delivers on Brexit. That's the priority. This is the

:31:27.:31:29.

sucks says of Theresa May and the Conservative Party. They're not

:31:30.:31:32.

coming to the Labour Party, are they? I think a lot of the people

:31:33.:31:40.

who voted to -- on Brexit to leave Europe are traditional Labour

:31:41.:31:44.

voters. This there is a task for the Labour Party to bring them back into

:31:45.:31:49.

the Labour fold. We were remain. But out of touch with a lot of your

:31:50.:31:55.

voters when you look at the northern towns and cities who voted to leave.

:31:56.:32:04.

I know more than anything, we had 12 elected BNP councillors elected in

:32:05.:32:09.

2006. I know more than most, the importance of staying in touch with

:32:10.:32:13.

your voters, reflecting the issues of concern, for me that's

:32:14.:32:17.

immigration. I think that was wrongly exploited in the Brexit

:32:18.:32:22.

campaign. Deeply regret that. Labour has that challenge of getting in

:32:23.:32:25.

touch. Reare flecting that in what they say in Parliament. Does Owen

:32:26.:32:31.

Smith's promise of a second referendum help in terms of bringing

:32:32.:32:38.

back those marginalised voters who feel the party doesn't understand

:32:39.:32:43.

them? I don't entirely go with Owen on that. You are supporting him? I

:32:44.:32:49.

am on the broader front. We need to tackle immigration which is why I

:32:50.:32:53.

think most people voted to leave Europe. I think it's really

:32:54.:32:58.

important to engage with people to build a really strongly diverse

:32:59.:33:01.

country that is at peace with it Elfself. Do you think it's a mistake

:33:02.:33:07.

of Owen Smith to pursue this second rev reign dumb? We'll see. Every day

:33:08.:33:13.

you wake up and listen to the news there's further delay in seeing what

:33:14.:33:18.

that means in practice. The three people charged in looking at this

:33:19.:33:23.

are spending their times rowing with each other on the Tory bench. We

:33:24.:33:28.

heard today from the Germans that we're unlikely to be able to start

:33:29.:33:31.

engaging after they've had their national... Doesn't mean it won't

:33:32.:33:36.

happen? Depends how and when it happens. 9 details. Do you feel

:33:37.:33:43.

you've let people down. Ukip was' just about leaving the EU. Always.

:33:44.:33:49.

Ukip's principle purpose was to free Britain from the shackles of the EU.

:33:50.:33:54.

You don't think it will survive? Not in its current form. I want the

:33:55.:33:59.

Conservative Party to be successful. In order to deliver on Brexit. Then

:34:00.:34:05.

take advantage of all the opportunities that flow from Brexit,

:34:06.:34:09.

we will need a bigger Conservative majority. People need to rejoin the

:34:10.:34:12.

Conservative Party. There will not be very much space for Ukip in that.

:34:13.:34:14.

Steve, thank you. And you can see Nigel Farage's

:34:15.:34:16.

farewell speech at the Ukip conference

:34:17.:34:18.

on the Daily Politics tomorrow. We'll be on air at the slightly

:34:19.:34:21.

earlier time of 11.30am Now, our guest of the day, Margaret

:34:22.:34:24.

Hodge, chaired the Commons Public and she learned so much

:34:25.:34:28.

about government waste, incompetence and corporate bad behaviour she's

:34:29.:34:32.

even written a book about it. to help give the work of select

:34:33.:34:36.

committees a far higher profile, after the chairmen became elected by

:34:37.:34:42.

fellow MPs - rather than nominated Let's have a look at Margaret

:34:43.:34:46.

and a few other moments where the committees have

:34:47.:34:52.

made their mark. In that case,

:34:53.:34:56.

you were either incredibly naive, and I don't think that the record

:34:57.:35:02.

that you've shown of your performance here, as a guardian of

:35:03.:35:10.

HSBC, gives me the confidence that you should be the guardian of the

:35:11.:35:13.

BBC licence fee payers' money. I really do think you should

:35:14.:35:17.

consider your position and you should think about resigning

:35:18.:35:19.

and if not, I think Mr Murdoch, at what point did

:35:20.:35:23.

you find out that criminality Endemic is a very hard -

:35:24.:35:33.

a very wide-ranging word. Did the Bank of England consider

:35:34.:35:45.

whether it was in the public interest to risk its

:35:46.:35:49.

reputation of impartiality. I think those that cast it

:35:50.:35:52.

into question should consider their motivations

:35:53.:35:56.

and their judgments. Sir, do you mind not looking at me

:35:57.:36:04.

like that all the time, You seem extraordinarily

:36:05.:36:07.

thin-skinned to quite courteous questions,

:36:08.:36:14.

as if you don't want to be challenged in any

:36:15.:36:16.

way, shape or form... In terms of that wider corporate

:36:17.:36:18.

governance point, in respect of the selling of BHS, did anybody,

:36:19.:36:23.

particularly your non-exe directors say, "Phil I'm not entirely

:36:24.:36:26.

certain this is correct, That doesn't seem to be the culture

:36:27.:36:29.

of the organisation. he's Chairman of Public Affairs

:36:30.:36:34.

at Weber Shandwick and he has prepared witnesses to

:36:35.:36:45.

appear before the select committees. Someone's got to do it. Welcome to

:36:46.:36:56.

the programme. So, Margaret Hodge, you've written this book and Jon has

:36:57.:37:00.

brought it in. There it is. In terms of what you were trying to do on

:37:01.:37:04.

that committee, do you think it was all about just getting publicity?

:37:05.:37:11.

No. We used the power of the media to draw issues to the public

:37:12.:37:15.

account. We have very few tools in our box. We're not an executive

:37:16.:37:19.

body. The only way you can raise issues and make sure they're

:37:20.:37:24.

properly discussed in public is to get people like you, Jo, interested

:37:25.:37:30.

in them. I'm not ashamed of the fact we are, were, theatre. It's great

:37:31.:37:33.

when you're theatre. You saw the best of the theatre in those clips

:37:34.:37:38.

you did. It is the purpose. Was it theatre for its own end, no. It was

:37:39.:37:43.

theatre to a purpose to draw people's attention to 2. Tax

:37:44.:37:47.

avoidance, which you didn't cover, which raps was the most important

:37:48.:37:51.

thing we did. If we hadn't brought the public into that and had that

:37:52.:37:56.

extent of public fury at it, we might not be seeing the changes the

:37:57.:38:02.

boardrooms we have today? . Do you agree with that select committees

:38:03.:38:05.

are sexier than ever these days because of the issues brought to the

:38:06.:38:11.

forein a he theatrical way? The Public Accounts Committee is an

:38:12.:38:15.

honourable exception as it Margaret. It is backed up by the National

:38:16.:38:19.

Audit Office and rigorous work around public spending which, as a

:38:20.:38:23.

taxpayer, I really become. I've had half an hour on the books so far. It

:38:24.:38:29.

as fabulously narrative and reflective tone. Anyone interested

:38:30.:38:34.

in the process. My issue about select committees is they give a gym

:38:35.:38:40.

crack accountability which is no substitute for really scoot Faizing

:38:41.:38:44.

Parliament. Earlier this week, David Davis sailed through a Lord's and

:38:45.:38:48.

Commons select committee on Brexit. They didn't put a finger on him at

:38:49.:38:53.

all. That's no good. We might end up agreeing a lot on this. The role of

:38:54.:38:58.

select committees, I really welcome the way they've emerged, I hope we

:38:59.:39:03.

keep that there, the accountability of the executive is really

:39:04.:39:07.

important. One reason they're all too often not effective, people look

:39:08.:39:12.

at future policy. New ideas. If you're a the left tackling

:39:13.:39:18.

inequality. On the right, privatisation, rather than looking

:39:19.:39:20.

at how the Government's doing, the record of the Government. Our voters

:39:21.:39:25.

out there care a lot of it's their money that's being used. They care

:39:26.:39:29.

how programmes are being implemented, how money's spent.

:39:30.:39:33.

Select committees could do more. As Ian write is doing, looking at

:39:34.:39:36.

what's happening now than dreaming about what's in the future. Did they

:39:37.:39:43.

go too far? You relate to it in your book. He provoked Gus, O'Donnell,

:39:44.:39:49.

the head of the civil service at the time to say you were turning it into

:39:50.:39:56.

a theatrical exercise in public humiliation. Did he have a point?

:39:57.:40:01.

No, I have a lot of suggestions of things I'd like to change. One of

:40:02.:40:06.

them is about the tradition of how civil servants account to

:40:07.:40:10.

Parliament. At the moment, civil servants don't really account to

:40:11.:40:12.

Parliament. They account to ministers who account to Parliament.

:40:13.:40:16.

That all worked when there were 26 civil servants in the Home Office.

:40:17.:40:22.

Today, there are 36,000. I feel they should be accountable to torment.

:40:23.:40:26.

Gus O'Donnell disagrees with that. I think he's wrong. The current system

:40:27.:40:31.

is broke. Should it be in front of the cameras? It lends itself to show

:40:32.:40:36.

boating, grandstanding whoever is in front. If you took it off air, would

:40:37.:40:41.

people get more out of these politicians and business people? I

:40:42.:40:48.

do want them taken off air. The custard pie, Philip Green weirdness

:40:49.:40:55.

and Dominic come I thinks appearance which is one to appreciate... We all

:40:56.:41:05.

enjoyed it. But But for the public. It is about accountability. I think

:41:06.:41:11.

members of Parliament, their role is to hold the executive to account on

:41:12.:41:16.

behalf of the public. For the public to see it is really important. It

:41:17.:41:20.

may be uncomfortable, sometimes feel trivial. I can tell you, what we

:41:21.:41:26.

uncovered during the course of our inquiries really resonated with the

:41:27.:41:29.

public. I can tell that from my inbox, from the letters I got. I

:41:30.:41:33.

think it's an important way of bringing democracy closer to the

:41:34.:41:36.

people. Before we carry on, there was news today, I don't know if you

:41:37.:41:44.

came across it, a member of your public accounts committee, Justin

:41:45.:41:49.

Tomlinson who's facings suspicion for leeking a report on payday

:41:50.:41:53.

lenders Wonga. He's made a statement. I wanted to take this

:41:54.:41:58.

opportunity to make a full under unrest everybodied apology to the

:41:59.:42:04.

house. In 2013 I broke the rules of conduct by drafting on buck lick

:42:05.:42:07.

accounts regarding the receiptinglation of consumer credit.

:42:08.:42:13.

An investigation by the Parliament standards was investigating in 2015

:42:14.:42:18.

following a complaint made by won Ga. The reports submitted by the

:42:19.:42:24.

commission of standards. I accept that my actions ensure in sharing

:42:25.:42:29.

the report constituted intear fearence and for this I'm truly

:42:30.:42:33.

sorry. This was never my intention. These actions came as a result of my

:42:34.:42:39.

own naivety driven by a desire to strengthen regulations on payday

:42:40.:42:43.

lenders and protect vulnerable consumers. Naivety, Margaret Hodge,

:42:44.:42:48.

is putting it nicely? Should he be suspended? Do you know, I do think

:42:49.:42:53.

in this particular instance it was naivety. It was an early time, he'd

:42:54.:42:59.

only been on the committee for a couple of months. It was wrong. He

:43:00.:43:03.

shouldn't have done it. I feel a bit sorry for him. You could see he was

:43:04.:43:09.

responding in a very personal way. He sounded quite upset. Do you think

:43:10.:43:14.

he should be suspended I think there is an issue overall about

:43:15.:43:18.

committees, the piano should respect the process. Even when I'm preparing

:43:19.:43:23.

witnesses, you must respect the process. You must answer the

:43:24.:43:28.

questions being asked and you have to get your message across. In all

:43:29.:43:34.

aspects the committees need a deep review and more resourcing to get

:43:35.:43:39.

them in front of departments toe to toe to challenge them. We'll have

:43:40.:43:45.

new select committees to scrutinise Brexit? One of the things I talk

:43:46.:43:51.

about in the book when ministers tried to influence things which

:43:52.:43:54.

happened in the committee is deeply wrong. I'll never probably prove it.

:43:55.:44:00.

It was obvious to me people had been nobbled. Members of the committee.

:44:01.:44:04.

By ministers. That was totally unacceptable. Are there too many

:44:05.:44:09.

people on these committees? Sometimes the questions and

:44:10.:44:14.

diversity, they go off on a tangent can sometimes lose a thread? The

:44:15.:44:21.

quality is variable. There are occasional drowsy moments when

:44:22.:44:24.

you're watching committees in progress. It's not always exciting.

:44:25.:44:31.

Isn't isn't that good for your clients? Bore them to death is a

:44:32.:44:37.

strategy. Drove me mad. The committees are the right size. We

:44:38.:44:42.

need sharp members. What about this thrix the committee? It will be

:44:43.:44:49.

chaired by a Labour MP? Is that it? Yes, should the post go to a

:44:50.:44:54.

remainor like Hilary Benn or geese letter Stuart who is a Brexiteer? If

:44:55.:44:58.

you want to reflect the Labour Party, it should be a remainor. It

:44:59.:45:03.

would be a good balance against the direction of Government if you want

:45:04.:45:06.

to hold it properly to account. Remember, the vote, whilst I'm not

:45:07.:45:11.

for having another vote, the vote wasn't that unevenly balanced. Final

:45:12.:45:16.

words of advice to your clients and then your committee members? It's

:45:17.:45:21.

fundamentally work with the process. It is important even though I have

:45:22.:45:25.

my criticisms of it. But don't be afraid to take advice. I know

:45:26.:45:30.

Margaret the arend her fellow chairs have hated people being prepared. If

:45:31.:45:35.

you look overprepared, it's useless. Respect the process, answer the

:45:36.:45:39.

question. Get your message across. I don't think people need to be

:45:40.:45:45.

prebared. If thaw came, were honest, answered directly, they didn't

:45:46.:45:48.

waffle on, they would get a fair hearing. It's when people didn't

:45:49.:45:53.

answer directly that they then got a rough time. I think we agree. You

:45:54.:45:58.

enjoyed it? I did. I had five good years. I hope the purpose of the

:45:59.:46:02.

book is not just to describe some of the hearings we had, but also to

:46:03.:46:06.

make suggestion for the future. I hope they will be taken seriously

:46:07.:46:08.

and debated. Jon, thank you. A new group will launch today

:46:09.:46:15.

with the aim of winning the support of ethnic minority voters

:46:16.:46:18.

for the Conservatives. The campaign group, Modern Britain,

:46:19.:46:20.

aims to replicate grassroots campaigning techniques

:46:21.:46:22.

being developed in Canada. Ethnic minority voters will play

:46:23.:46:27.

an increasingly prominent role in future general elections,

:46:28.:46:29.

with non-white people projected to make up 30%

:46:30.:46:31.

of the population by 2050. Of the 20 seats the Conservative

:46:32.:46:36.

Party has the best chance of gaining in 2020, 10 have a proportion

:46:37.:46:40.

of ethnic-minority voters above 10%. In Ealing Central Acton,

:46:41.:46:47.

for example, the Conservatives only have to overturn a 0.5% Labour

:46:48.:46:52.

majority, while 29.9% of the electorate is black,

:46:53.:46:55.

Asian or mixed. Research by British Influence

:46:56.:47:03.

in the last general election suggests the Conservatives

:47:04.:47:05.

have a long way to go to win They found Labour were winning 50%

:47:06.:47:08.

of the Asian vote It was even more marked among black

:47:09.:47:11.

voters, Labour winning 67% compared We're joined now by Kulveer Ranger,

:47:12.:47:19.

he was an adviser to former London mayor, Boris Johnson,

:47:20.:47:25.

and is now director of Modern Welcome to the Daily Politics. This

:47:26.:47:35.

isn't the first time, obviously, the Conservatives say they want to

:47:36.:47:39.

appeal more to ethnic minority voters. Why has it not worked in the

:47:40.:47:42.

past? It is not the Conservatives saying T I am a Conservative but we

:47:43.:47:47.

are doing this from outside the party. Sure but it is to attract

:47:48.:47:52.

ethnic minorities to the Conservative Party. . Momentum for

:47:53.:47:59.

the Conservative Party. If we were half as successful, you would be

:48:00.:48:04.

pleased. I think the Conservatives have tried to attract ethnic

:48:05.:48:10.

minority voters. We have had generational migration in. Like

:48:11.:48:17.

Windrush. And u began da. Maybe the Conservatives weren't seen as

:48:18.:48:20.

welcoming, maybe they thought they didn't need those votes, generally

:48:21.:48:23.

outside the inner cities where the large pockets of immigrants tended

:48:24.:48:28.

to be based but now we have seen internal migration, due to these

:48:29.:48:31.

communities doing well, increasing in affluence, but there is still a

:48:32.:48:34.

cultural bind that holds these communities together. We look at the

:48:35.:48:44.

black community. Maybe it is around churches, carnival, religion and so

:48:45.:48:47.

the voting pattern can remain although it is getting softer. That

:48:48.:48:50.

makes it sound like the Conservative Party has never been interested in

:48:51.:48:54.

appealing until ethnic minority voters until they realise they need

:48:55.:48:57.

to if they are going to continue winning elections? I think that's

:48:58.:49:01.

right. So they don't care about ethnic minority voters, is that what

:49:02.:49:05.

you are saying? There has been short-term engagement when it comes

:49:06.:49:08.

to an electoral cycle. We need a long-term understanding to build the

:49:09.:49:12.

trust, especially nowadays where the vote is becoming more transactional.

:49:13.:49:15.

People are looking around more and looking at what is happening on the

:49:16.:49:19.

Labour side and in terms of the referendum, and they want it feel

:49:20.:49:23.

people are hearing their voice and I think in a diverse, modern Britain

:49:24.:49:26.

that we have, which is a success in the international world, in terms of

:49:27.:49:29.

the different cultures that we have, I think the Conservative Party must

:49:30.:49:33.

take a longer, strategic view of how it listens to these communities. So

:49:34.:49:37.

is the Conservative Party brand still damaged in the eyes of the

:49:38.:49:43.

minorities which is what Sajid Javid said - remember Enoch Powell and his

:49:44.:49:47.

speeches, when he was a Conservative politician. I think there is a

:49:48.:49:50.

generation that will remember that but there is a lot more now, second,

:49:51.:49:55.

third, fourth generation, who will not recall Enoch Powell and will not

:49:56.:50:00.

understand what the Rivers of Blood meant but will think of modern

:50:01.:50:03.

Conservatism through the eyes of what David Cameron has done, the

:50:04.:50:07.

engagement he started, his 2020 agenda. See what does that mean?

:50:08.:50:14.

What wr is the waying of saying that policy development can be informal

:50:15.:50:16.

from what those communities feel and want to address. The problem for

:50:17.:50:23.

Labour is taking people for granted. It has lost Scotland and lost a lot

:50:24.:50:27.

of Labour voters in heartland north. It could do the same for ethnic

:50:28.:50:31.

minority voters that for whatever reason, tend to vote Labour? I

:50:32.:50:35.

agree, actually, Jo. I think Labour can the no just assume that people

:50:36.:50:40.

who traditionally voted Labour will continue to do this. Neither can the

:50:41.:50:44.

Conservatives, I don't think any political party can work on the

:50:45.:50:48.

assumption you are tribal. You have to constantly reach out to voters

:50:49.:50:53.

and ensure you relate to the issues that matter to them and you have to

:50:54.:50:57.

constantly ensure you are listening to what they say. So, yes, we have

:50:58.:51:01.

to work to earn every ethnic minority vote that we have

:51:02.:51:05.

traditionally had and we must learn the lessons of Scotland and not

:51:06.:51:09.

presume T the only thing I would say to you is - on the whole - Labour

:51:10.:51:15.

has a good record to what we have done to support ethnic minorities.

:51:16.:51:18.

My feel would be that the anti-immigration stance that was

:51:19.:51:24.

there in the Brexit campaign, would not help you encourage immigrant

:51:25.:51:27.

communities to actually come over to the Conservative Party. I mean, you

:51:28.:51:31.

have a problem - and I think although you say Cameron was a

:51:32.:51:35.

different place, I agree. I think actually the Brexiteer who is won in

:51:36.:51:38.

the Conservative Party, give a bad message it people or out of

:51:39.:51:43.

immigrant communities. Briefly, do you think now we should be lumping

:51:44.:51:48.

ethnic minority groups together. I mean they are really very different

:51:49.:51:53.

and would that not help the general political integration of groups of

:51:54.:51:57.

people? Yes, I cringe at the word "minority" in some areas it is

:51:58.:52:00.

diverse communities, and it is not the minority but I think there are

:52:01.:52:03.

cultural binds that hold them together. I agree that the

:52:04.:52:07.

referendum vote and the return of the phrase like "go home lackey"

:52:08.:52:13.

something I hadn't heard since I was a child, is something we need to

:52:14.:52:19.

tackle this, we have been working a few of us, we have been working on

:52:20.:52:24.

this for quite a long time now. I have been in the Conservative Party

:52:25.:52:27.

for 15 years and understand some of the challenges but this is really

:52:28.:52:31.

looking at the future and following on the engagement agenda.

:52:32.:52:35.

Now, the Oxford and Cambridge boat race is one of the highlights of the

:52:36.:52:39.

One of the less well-known highlights - maybe it's just more

:52:40.:52:42.

of a light - is the annual race along a somewhat shorter stretch

:52:43.:52:46.

of the Thames between the House of Commons and the House of Lords.

:52:47.:52:49.

Over there, they are used to sticking their oars in.

:52:50.:52:54.

Now the Lords and the Commons are about to do it for real,

:52:55.:52:57.

on the River Thames in the annual parliamentary boat race in aid

:52:58.:53:00.

of a charity called the International Sports

:53:01.:53:02.

I thought rowers were meant to be buffer than that.

:53:03.:53:07.

There's also a hearty doze of nautical humour.

:53:08.:53:17.

You have to be careful of having a crab.

:53:18.:53:21.

That's the biggest threat in the race.

:53:22.:53:22.

When you get your oar in the wrong spot.

:53:23.:53:25.

Something I'm very passionate about and also it is for a good

:53:26.:53:29.

While people may think it's frivolous, we do some good as well.

:53:30.:53:34.

I heard when you fall in on the Thames, you have

:53:35.:53:36.

I don't know about that but I wouldn't suggest

:53:37.:53:40.

Right, got my BBC obligatory life jacket, so I can get closer

:53:41.:53:48.

This event has been happening for ten years now.

:53:49.:53:50.

The Commons have won five times and the Lords have won four

:53:51.:53:53.

As the teams cross the starting line at Lambeth Bridge,

:53:54.:53:58.

Both trying to avoid what happened three years ago,

:53:59.:54:02.

Now I'm no Clare Balding but it looks like their Lordships aren't

:54:03.:54:06.

It's a baking hot day here in London but our elective representatives

:54:07.:54:18.

Does this prove the primacy of the Commons over the Lords?

:54:19.:54:28.

I don't think it will settle that forever.

:54:29.:54:30.

But I notice some of the members of the House of Lords

:54:31.:54:33.

are actually former members of the House of Commons.

:54:34.:54:35.

Ah, so as soon as the race is over, they are back to rocking

:54:36.:54:40.

At least they are on dry land again. O

:54:41.:54:50.

and one of the losing peers, the Liberal Democrat Brian Paddick.

:54:51.:54:55.

Welcome. At least you won't sink, hopefully on this programme. Can any

:54:56.:55:02.

of you row? Yes, we can row. We are not as good as some of our

:55:03.:55:07.

colleagues who may have got a at Oxford but we got over the finish

:55:08.:55:10.

line without sipging. What happened last time We got caught under the

:55:11.:55:17.

bridge, the boat was swamped and went over. How do you feel on the

:55:18.:55:22.

losing side? Galling, to be honest. For the last two years we have won

:55:23.:55:27.

but one of our novices caught a crab, knocked the other person off

:55:28.:55:31.

his seat behind him, who ended up in the lap of the one behind. On a

:55:32.:55:35.

short course, it is very difficult to recover. It is not very long, is

:55:36.:55:39.

it, the course, when I think back to the races I see in the Thames? We

:55:40.:55:45.

have to row up to the start line. You are exhausted before you start.

:55:46.:55:51.

Exactly. You poor things Do you do training? We do. The Lords had an

:55:52.:55:56.

unfortune event, their boat was swamped on their training. We went

:55:57.:56:03.

training in Putney. They had to come in two halves to fit on the trailer.

:56:04.:56:08.

We boat we went inp hadn't been bolted together properly. I was told

:56:09.:56:12.

it was all right. It got up to seat level and that was the end of that.

:56:13.:56:17.

I hope you can all swim. Health and safety, with the welcome welcome, it

:56:18.:56:20.

sounds terrifying. But for a good cause. We raised ?10,000 for three

:56:21.:56:28.

charities. They are the London Youth Rowing the Matt Hamp son Trust Fund

:56:29.:56:34.

and the Company of Watermen and Lightmen. How competitive is it? I

:56:35.:56:39.

think there is a bit of rivalry amongst some of the participants

:56:40.:56:42.

like me, for example, but the important thing is we have a lot of

:56:43.:56:47.

fun and we raise a lot of money for charity. Is it difficult to recruit

:56:48.:56:50.

people to the boat? It is sometimes. And some people who raced yesterday

:56:51.:56:54.

it was their first time in the boat. First time in? Yes. And were there

:56:55.:57:02.

eight MPs? Seven. Six actually. They had some ringers. We had eight

:57:03.:57:09.

genuine Lords in boat Isn't it harder in the Lords to find people

:57:10.:57:14.

who want to do this? Bearing in mind of background of a lot of

:57:15.:57:18.

hereditaries and Tories, you find a larger proportion of people who have

:57:19.:57:21.

rowed before than perhaps in the Commons. Maybe they have the

:57:22.:57:25.

advantage. What about a women's team or mixed team? I have never heard of

:57:26.:57:32.

it. I'm really upset. I have a loud voice, I'm short... You could be the

:57:33.:57:39.

cox. Sign Margaret up, you know. Why isn't it mixed? In previous years we

:57:40.:57:46.

have had some women. Kelly Tilhurst wanted to race. She injured her arm

:57:47.:57:52.

so couldn't do it. And we had a blue at Oxford. Everybody went to Oxford

:57:53.:57:59.

and Cambridge. Oh, they didn't do it at your university, LSC? I had never

:58:00.:58:04.

rowed before I started this three years ago. I went to the wrong

:58:05.:58:07.

school, obviously. What about, are you going to do it in the next few

:58:08.:58:13.

years? Absolutely. Going down to Putney on a weekday morning when the

:58:14.:58:17.

sun is shining, it is absolutely beautiful and I would really

:58:18.:58:20.

encourage people to come down and have a go because it really is great

:58:21.:58:24.

fun. And it was a beautiful day. It was. With the success of the

:58:25.:58:28.

Olympics as well, rowing is becoming more of an interest sport. Something

:58:29.:58:32.

else we are trying to promote. As Brian said, the view of the House of

:58:33.:58:37.

Commons and House of Parliament from the river. Well an expansion of tug

:58:38.:58:43.

of war and Parliamently dog of the year, and whatever else I have had

:58:44.:58:45.

to do recently. Just time to reveal -

:58:46.:58:47.

because we forgot to yesterday - that the answer to

:58:48.:58:51.

Guess the Year was 1973.

:58:52.:58:54.

Jo Coburn is joined by the former culture minister Margaret Hodge to discuss Theresa May giving the Hinkley nuclear power station the go-ahead, the Labour party leadership and the importance of select committees.


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