Browse content similar to 15/09/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:37. | :00:38. | |
She's certainly given it plenty of thought. | :00:39. | :00:40. | |
Now Theresa May's decided to give the green light | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
to the first new UK nuclear plant for 20 years. | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
After much deliberation, the government says the French | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
and the Chinese will build the Hinckley Point power station. | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
Although ministers say they've imposed tough new conditions. | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
Labour's leadership contest enters the final lap. | :00:59. | :01:01. | |
We'll be asking how Owen Smith measured up against Jeremy Corbyn | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
Ukip's got its own problems with party unity. | :01:06. | :01:11. | |
We've been to Wales to see if a new leader can build | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
And it's not exactly Oxford v Cambridge, | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
but we've been to see MPs and peers putting their oars in | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
for their very own boat race on the Thames. | :01:24. | :01:32. | |
And with us for the whole of the programme today | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
She was a minister under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
but is probably best known for grilling public figures | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
as head of a high profile Commons Committee. | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
One anonymous member of her committee once compared her | :01:49. | :01:50. | |
Which, believe it or not, was meant to be a compliment... of sorts. | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
Let's begin today with the government's decision | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
to go ahead with the construction of a nuclear power station | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
The ?18 billion project, which is being financed by the French | :02:03. | :02:08. | |
and the Chinese, was put on hold by Theresa May soon after she became | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
Prime Minister amid reports that she had concerns | :02:13. | :02:15. | |
about Chinese involvement in Britain's nuclear power industry. | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
Although ministers say they will impose "significant new safeguards" | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
Here's the Business Secretary Greg Clark speaking earlier. | :02:26. | :02:33. | |
It's an important upgrade of our energy supplies | :02:34. | :02:35. | |
for the next six years, contributing 7% of clean, | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
reliable energy and a major step forward for our new | :02:40. | :02:47. | |
nuclear power programme and an ?18 billion investment in the economy, | :02:48. | :02:50. | |
So, the government's made its mind up. | :02:51. | :02:57. | |
What, if anything, has changed since the decision was put on hold? | :02:58. | :03:00. | |
Let's talk to our correspondent Ben Wright. | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
Has anything changed? We've heard them talking about tough new | :03:07. | :03:13. | |
safeguards. Do we know what they might be? It doesn't seem as if a | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
great deal's changed so far. In terms of the structure of this deal. | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
The Chinese involvement, the price that will be paid for electricity. | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
There is this change around the question of the UK having a special | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
share option in the future that would enable them to block the sale | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
of a stake that other companies like EDF have in future infrastructure | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
projects like this. Number Ten say this is quite a big change in | :03:40. | :03:42. | |
securing Britain's national security going forward. But I think there | :03:43. | :03:49. | |
will be many who will ask after this remarkably, after this big surprise | :03:50. | :03:55. | |
in this huge deal, was it worth it or is this a lot of political | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
theatre to show Theresa May is pressing the reset button, really? | :04:00. | :04:02. | |
There will be some who are asking that questions today. It will go aid | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
head. There's something about the French having to rubber-stamp it or | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
EDF having to stamp it? It will go ahead? It will. Theresa May spoke to | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
President Hollande about this just before the deal was announced once | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
again. The beep mats between China and the UK have -- diplomats between | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
China and the UK have talked about it. Labour have asked for guarantees | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
that the Bradwell station that is now likely to be built, that | :04:35. | :04:41. | |
controversial Chinese power plant, they're asking for guarantees that | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
means Chinese workers won't couple to the UK to take care of that. Also | :04:46. | :04:51. | |
the price being paid. This will go ahead despite this surprising | :04:52. | :04:54. | |
two-month pause we've seen. Thank you. | :04:55. | :04:56. | |
We're joined now by the former Energy Secretary Ed Davey. | :04:57. | :04:58. | |
He was the coalition minister who struck the deal | :04:59. | :05:00. | |
Welcome to the Daily Politics. We've had this pause. Do you think there's | :05:01. | :05:09. | |
anything different in this deal from what you can tell? Eyed like to hear | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
the details. This special share they're talking about to help on | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
national security issues was something I proposed when we were in | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
Government. The Liberal Democrats were arguing for it. Unfortunately | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
George Osborne said he didn't want it and overruled us. So, I'm glad to | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
see it. You're pleased? I think it's the sensible thing and why I | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
proposed it a few years ago. How surprised were you about the pause? | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
Quite surprised. I think they've managed to annoy the Chinese, the | :05:40. | :05:45. | |
French, annoy other people investing. There thereby an extra | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
political risk for people wanting to invest in the UK. It's not been | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
Clifford and very well handled by Theresa May and her team. If it | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
results in a project which will help us tackle climate change through low | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
carbon and has this extra national security guarantee with a special | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
share, it is a the right thing to do. You were the minister in | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
coalition who wanted this deal. What about those saying the Hinkley Point | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
should be abandoned? I'm not surprised. Tim far lop has always | :06:21. | :06:26. | |
been sceptical about nuclear power. He's the leader. Is he wrong? I | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
think I he is. If you're going to tackle climate change we need a lot | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
of low carbon electricity from wind, sole auricular, tidal. I'm the | :06:38. | :06:43. | |
British minister who commissioned another renewable power in history. | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
I love renewables. I don't think they can do it alone. We need | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
electricity for heating, transport and power. That's a lot of green | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
electricity. Nuclear can help as part of a mix. Do you agree with | :06:56. | :07:01. | |
that? We need nuclear as part of the mix. This is a Liberal Democrat who | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
believes and loves renewables. Ed knows more than I am. I'm skeptical | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
about this particular issuement we looked at it when I was chair of the | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
Public Accounts Committee. It is hugely expensive. According to the | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
recent national audit figures they are worse than the ones you showed | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
at the top of the programme Jo. The subsidy to ED if will be ?30 | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
billion. The prize is double the price of electricity as it is now | :07:31. | :07:33. | |
because the price of oil has gone down. The other thing is, this is a | :07:34. | :07:39. | |
big, big project. The Finns are trying to build a similar | :07:40. | :07:46. | |
capability. It was supposed to be completed from 2009. Now it will be | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
finished in 2018. This tends to be in the van they project area. I | :07:51. | :07:56. | |
would rather see smaller nuclear projects and other capabilities to | :07:57. | :07:59. | |
make sure the lights are kept on. You would like to see it abandoned? | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
I'm a sceptic. Not because imI'm anti-nuclear. He discussed the price | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
at the time. It seems incredibly hi when you look at her forms of | :08:10. | :08:17. | |
energy. ?92.50 at mega watts per hour. How can that be good for the | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
taxpayer? I don't know. No-one can know if it's value for money. We | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
only start paying for electricity if it's build. Let's say that's 2025 | :08:28. | :08:35. | |
and 9 contract last for 35 years, to know whether it is good for money, | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
you have to know the price of electricity at that time and the | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
price of carbon. Maybe Margaret and the National Audit Office know that, | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
I don't know it. I'm afraid, I'm sorry, the reality is one has to | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
take decisions in Government because it's not just price, you have to | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
think about climate change which is criticalnd insecurity. The three | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
together. We've had to invest in rue knewables at a higher price than | :09:03. | :09:10. | |
this -- renewables. Ed, when you settle a price, you settle it | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
against projections that your committeeists will undertake. Of | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
course. But do you know what, the wholesale price of electricity has | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
changed in two years by a lot. It changes all the time. The economists | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
tell you that. Of course it changes all the time. Looking at today's | :09:27. | :09:32. | |
figures, it looks acrazily expensive option. But that's the mistake | :09:33. | :09:40. | |
you're making. Do you say you're making a stab in the dark? Can t | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
could make other forms of energy cheaper? You're right, there are a | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
lot of uncertainties in energy policy. Not just prices but what | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
technology will do. You just don't know. Sometimes you have to come to | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
a decision. Given this is the right for keeping the lights on, can plug | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
their kettles on watch TV, given it is the right decision to tackle | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
climate change, it is weird people say they know the price between 2025 | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
and 2060. It may not be the right decision to keep the lights on or | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
given the speed at which technology's changes. What would you | :10:21. | :10:27. | |
do? What I hear from experts, I accept Ed's more technical expertise | :10:28. | :10:34. | |
than I have, what I heard is nuclear technology's changing much more | :10:35. | :10:37. | |
quickly. There are smaller stations you can build much more rapidly. | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
Make sure the lights are on better. What I also hear... That's not true. | :10:42. | :10:49. | |
I also hear renewables are developing quickly, becoming cheaper | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
more quickly. Solar is becoming more viable than it was a few years ago. | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
Going for this big vanity project may not be the quality of what we | :10:58. | :11:03. | |
want. I don't disagree with a lot of what you've said, Margaret. I'm a | :11:04. | :11:09. | |
huge fan of solar, wind, tidal. Why not use those more? If we're going | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
to tackle climate change seriously, the truth is, if you put all your | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
eggs in one basket then you are putting a risk in the fight against | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
climate change. I believe we should invest in all these low carbon | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
technologies. The threat of climate Church of England is existential. | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
When you last talked to me about this, it is a massive public | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
subsidy? The policy of the coalition is nuclear would get no extra | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
advantages over other forms of low carbon. It is a new subsidy? No | :11:45. | :11:51. | |
extra support against others. If it is no subsidy against others... Hang | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
on, Ed, it is an extra cost to the user. That's the point when we | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
looked at all the investment, there's an 18% increase in the bills | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
to the energy user in their bills from the capital investment. Do you | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
believe the polluter should pay? Yeah. If you do you, and you look at | :12:09. | :12:16. | |
the price of coal and gas, they should have a carbon #3r50is | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
attached to them. Nobody when they discuss this does that. Coal and gas | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
are causing climate change. They don't pay their true costs. If they | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
did, renewables and nuclear would seem much more effective. I might | :12:31. | :12:32. | |
agree with you on that one. Jeremy Corbyn was cheered | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
by Labour MPs as he took on Theresa May over grammar schools | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
at PMQs yesterday. But, in case you'd forgotten, | :12:40. | :12:41. | |
he's still fighting a leadership a challenger backed by the majority | :12:42. | :12:44. | |
of the parliamentary Labour Party. They held the final hustings of the | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
contest last night on Sky News, and the exchanges | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
were fairly tough. Do I regret the fact | :12:53. | :12:53. | |
that some colleagues, including Owen, decided to resign | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
from the Shadow Cabinet, hence we are having this | :13:00. | :13:02. | |
leadership contest? I simply say to them - | :13:03. | :13:03. | |
once this leadership contest is over, let's come together, | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
let's come together and campaign How many seats do we need to win | :13:08. | :13:09. | |
to beat the Tories? You know as well as I do | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
we need to win at least 90? No, we don't, we need to win | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
106, Jeremy. I worry that the leader | :13:18. | :13:19. | |
of the Labour Party doesn't know how many seats we need | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
to win from the Tories. I am just so angry at what the rest | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
of the Labour Party We're joined now by the journalist | :13:28. | :13:30. | |
Rachel Shabi, she's a supporter of Jeremy Corbyn, and Margaret Hodge | :13:31. | :13:46. | |
is still with us, How did Owen Smith do? I have to be | :13:47. | :13:59. | |
honest, I didn't watch the programme last night. Over All? I think he's | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
doing extremely well. He's got better. The most important thing is | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
there is a real distinction between the two of them. Owen Smith | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
understands what the Labour Party was founded for, and that was to | :14:13. | :14:15. | |
gain power and form Government. It was never founded as a pressure | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
groupment there are plenty of other ways Rachel and others can spend | :14:20. | :14:23. | |
their time in other avenues rather than being members of a pressure | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
group. What do you say to that? How do you think Jeremy Corbyn did? I | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
think both of the candidates in the leadership contest understand they | :14:33. | :14:35. | |
want to be leaders of the party in order to get into power. Because | :14:36. | :14:38. | |
what would be the point otherwise. People want to put their politics | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
into power. Jeremy Corbyn wants and needs to be in power to effect all | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
of kind of policy changes and transformations he wants to bring | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
about and that have caused over half a million members to support his | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
party. Not to be in a pressure group? Clearly not a pressure group, | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
clearly a party that's in Parliament and wants to be in power. The | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
interesting thing is, were that the case, I'm delighted to hear Rachel | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
say that, he wouldn't be listening to a relatively small bunch of | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
people... Are you talking about Momentum? He would be listening to | :15:15. | :15:20. | |
the nine million people who voted Labour and in my constituency at the | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
last election. Relating to their concerns and concerned with | :15:25. | :15:27. | |
increasing the number of people who vote Labour next time. If you look | :15:28. | :15:33. | |
at every opinion poll, every analysis done of his actual personal | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
credibility, we are doing worse than we have ever done probably in our | :15:39. | :15:40. | |
entire history. What do you say for that? You know | :15:41. | :15:50. | |
the poll ratings are disastrous, the worst-ever for aide leer at this | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
point. Jeremy Corbyn's personal ratings are 64 points behind Theresa | :15:55. | :15:57. | |
May. Can Labour win a general election from that point? I think | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
the most important thing to say is that the Labour Party has problems | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
and is in crisis and that has nothing to do with the leader. | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
Nothing to do with Jeremy Corbyn The Labour Party has struggled in | :16:10. | :16:15. | |
elections, haemorrhaging voters, regardless of the leader. How long | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
are you taking that back for? Tony Blair won three elections for a row. | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
We were in Government for 13 years. The Labour Party has been | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
haemorrhaging. Let Rachael finish. You are saying since Ed Miliband? | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
I'm saying the Labour Party is in crisis, and that would be the case | :16:32. | :16:34. | |
whoever was the leader and the truth of the matter is that neither of us | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
knows, how Jeremy Corbyn would perform. Because we haven't seen | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
what he could do. We haven't seen what he could do with a united | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
party, with all the talents and capabilities of MPs like you, behind | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
him. He haven't seen what he could do with 500,000 people supporting | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
him in the party, the biggest membership of any party across | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
Europe. When that group of people is galvanised ape put into effect in | :17:01. | :17:03. | |
canvasses and campaigns and gets out and talks to people on the streets, | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
we don't know what the result will be. Margaret... I talk to people all | :17:08. | :17:16. | |
the time. Hang on, it is clear that Jeremy Corbyn is going to win the | :17:17. | :17:19. | |
leadership election. Not necessarily. Lets Ayerza superhe has | :17:20. | :17:25. | |
won it Not necessarily. If he does, is it time for MPs, Labour MPs who | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
had no confidence in him before to unite behind him? I think what, you | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
know, it is very difficult. I think ofry Member of Parliament will have | :17:35. | :17:37. | |
to make their own decision. I'm afraid I'm in the camp that believes | :17:38. | :17:45. | |
that Jeremy Corbyn with his policies. This is not in anyway | :17:46. | :17:48. | |
personal. I have known and liked him personally. I think it is the camp | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
from which he comes, I know #4i78 from the '80s, Jo, when you were | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
first in television and I was active in politics. Their interest is not | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
in gaining power, it is in destroying capitalism and trying to | :18:03. | :18:05. | |
overthrow the current system. That's where they come from. Therefore, I | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
shall always be in the camp on trying to secure a leadership in | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
Parliament that actually brings... Can I say one other thing, if you | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
have lost the support of over 80% of your Members of Parliament, from all | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
whiches of the party, if all of them choose to resign, I think, actually | :18:22. | :18:24. | |
the grown-up thing to do, the thing with integrity to do is to walk away | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
and allow the party in Parliament to then have a leader that they can... | :18:30. | :18:35. | |
He clearly is not doing that and hasn't up until now. In terms of | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
unity, do you think that cause was helped by a leak of a list of Labour | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
MPs who have been disloyal to Jeremy Corbyn, was then sort of let out by | :18:44. | :18:50. | |
a member of the team. Will that help unify the Parliamentary Labour | :18:51. | :18:52. | |
Party. I want to answer that question but I want to respond to | :18:53. | :18:58. | |
that point. Destroy capitalism is quite a label to put on people whose | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
politics are in line with a lot of popular thinking when it comes this | :19:03. | :19:05. | |
things like investment in public infrastructure and the | :19:06. | :19:08. | |
renationalisation of public services and fairer taxation, reducing | :19:09. | :19:10. | |
inequality. Supporting the welfare state. I think those policies are | :19:11. | :19:16. | |
actually quite reasonable. And the sort of policies that will resonate | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
for people who struggle every day, as a result of the politics imposed | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
by this current Government. They haven't resonated so far. Answer the | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
question about the list of MPs. This was a mistake. It was devastating to | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
see that happen, especially on the same day that we saw the Labour | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
Party, how brilliant and effective an opposition it could be when it | :19:38. | :19:40. | |
was united over a cause and with its leader. It was a mistake. It is | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
important to remember that the campaign is very separate from the | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
leadership office. The two have nothing to do with each other and | :19:49. | :19:51. | |
while the campaign, of course it is trying to fight a leadership battle, | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
is going to have that mentality about it, the leadership office and | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
his team are not about battle any more, they are actually about unite | :20:01. | :20:03. | |
and reconciliation. We can see that from the way... There is no | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
crossover when the two. As I understand it, the two are in tact | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
and now we can see the which is do. It is important for the Labour Party | :20:13. | :20:15. | |
leadership to be now talking about... Doesn't it undermine Jeremy | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
Corbyn's whole argument about a cinder, gentler politics and trying | :20:20. | :20:22. | |
to unify and reach out to empoo. It did the opposite. I think it was a | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
mistake and I think the campaign team swiftly realised the mistake | :20:28. | :20:30. | |
and apologised for T I think Jeremy Corbyn's team is talking very much | :20:31. | :20:33. | |
about unity. We saw him talking about unity last night in the debate | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
with Owen Smith. That's where the party needs to be thinking right | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
now. What about, then, the performance of Jeremy Corbyn at | :20:42. | :20:48. | |
PMQs, it was his best PMQs. He won MMQs and there were lots of Labour | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
MPs who don't support him Jeremy Corbyn, tweeting high praise of that | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
performance yesterday. If he were to go on issues that unify the | :20:59. | :21:01. | |
Parliamentary Labour Party, could there be cause for the two sides | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
coming together? I think there is a lot of underlying values and | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
policies on which probably Rachael and I agree, I agree it is a | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
mistake. I think what is interesting, if you are a leader of | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
a party, you are the leader of the parliamentary party as well as other | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
parts of the party and every grouping has dissenters and people | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
who have a different view. As the leader it is your job, actually, if | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
somebody disagrees, you bring them in, you don't publicly admonish | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
them. Which he didn't do. Which he has never done. To be honest, I | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
don't make this distinction, the leader is the leader of the leader's | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
office. He has to be responsible for all those working for him. He is | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
also the candidate. He has to be responsible for the team working for | :21:50. | :21:52. | |
him. To say it is somebody else's fault, it is not me I am eight Mr | :21:53. | :21:58. | |
Nice Guy, I don't buy that. It is central to the whole of the way that | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
the system operates, I'm afraid under Jeremy Corbyn. But whatever | :22:04. | :22:06. | |
you think about it, obviously we are going to disagree with, that I | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
separate the two. I think he has been talking about uniony. #r5rdless | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
t doesn't matter, what matters now is getting the party to unite -- - | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
regardless, it doesn't matter. It is about getting the party to unite. | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
There was a discussion between Jeremy Corbyn and Owen Smith about | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
how many seats they needed to win the next election. We can argue | :22:27. | :22:29. | |
about the numbers another time. But as it stands to have a majority of | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
one, Labour needs to win a seat like base I think stone with a Tory | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
majority of 10,000. It has never had a Labour MP, do you think that's | :22:38. | :22:40. | |
possible under Jeremy Corbyn? I think we are looking at a country | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
that post-Brexit feels worried and insecure. We have the highest levels | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
of inequality. People are worried daily about how they are going to | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
make it from week-to-week... Sure but can they win a seat like basing | :22:55. | :23:00. | |
stone With 500,000 peel behind Labour, campaigning, discussing the | :23:01. | :23:03. | |
issues on the streets, maybe they can be persuaded. We don't know. All | :23:04. | :23:05. | |
right. Thank you. It's not just Labour that's picking | :23:06. | :23:08. | |
a new leader at the moment. The ballot for the next leader | :23:09. | :23:11. | |
of Ukip closed just as we came on air, and the successor | :23:12. | :23:14. | |
to Nigel Farage is due to be announced at the party | :23:15. | :23:17. | |
conference tomorrow. the party's having a struggle to put | :23:18. | :23:18. | |
on a united front. Ellie's been to Wales, | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
where the party scored a major win in elections earlier this year, | :23:23. | :23:25. | |
to find out more. Who do EU think you're kidding | :23:26. | :23:28. | |
Mr Smith, This is what taking the fight | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
to Labour looks like. Ukip campaigners outside | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
the constituency office of the Labour Leadership | :23:39. | :23:40. | |
contender Owen Smith. The party sees an opportunity in | :23:41. | :23:42. | |
Labour heartlands where the vote to leave the EU | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
was above the national average. As with most of the Welsh valleys, | :23:48. | :23:54. | |
there's been a Labour MP here in Yet, there's evidence | :23:55. | :23:57. | |
Ukip is making inroads. the party came second | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
in the last general election. in this year's Welsh Assembly | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
elections. But the challenge here will be | :24:07. | :24:16. | |
convincing voters that Ukip still has a role following that | :24:17. | :24:19. | |
Brexit vote. Perhaps, I think it might | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
be the end of them. They seem a bit disjointed | :24:24. | :24:26. | |
in Wales, don't they? Would you vote Ukip? | :24:27. | :24:28. | |
No. Have you ever voted Ukip? | :24:29. | :24:29. | |
No. Do you think Ukip can start | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
winning here in Wales? Well, yes, I'd like to think | :24:34. | :24:35. | |
they could, yeah. And there's another problem | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
round the corner too. The internal divisions within Ukip | :24:41. | :24:42. | |
have been well publicised. On the one side, you've those | :24:43. | :24:45. | |
loyal to Nigel Farage. On the other, a camp of people who | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
felt sidelined by his leadership. The likes of Douglas Carswell, | :24:51. | :24:53. | |
the party's only MP. I'm told the two men haven't spoken | :24:54. | :24:55. | |
since before the EU referendum. But if you think that's bad, | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
welcome to the Welsh Assembly. He says he's the Ukip leader in | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
Wales, but he's a Ukip MEP for Wales but that he sits as an independent | :25:05. | :25:11. | |
on the Welsh Assembly. The reason for that is I just felt | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
it was impossible to work within the group of some of the Assembly | :25:17. | :25:19. | |
Members here. I didn't want to be | :25:20. | :25:25. | |
associated with them. They were basically working | :25:26. | :25:28. | |
against the party, the leadership. I felt it important to distance | :25:29. | :25:31. | |
myself from them. He's talking in particular | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
about Neil Hamilton. that he's no longer a member of the | :25:36. | :25:37. | |
Ukip group in the Assembly. Hasn't had the courtesy to write | :25:38. | :25:43. | |
to me to tell me that. His fundamental problem is he hasn't | :25:44. | :25:46. | |
been able to get over the fact that he didn't have the confidence | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
of his colleagues Doesn't reflect very well | :25:51. | :25:52. | |
on the party, does it? No, it doesn't reflect | :25:53. | :25:59. | |
very well on him. He doesn't exactly have a cuddly | :26:00. | :26:01. | |
relationship with Nigel Farage. But he does have friends on the | :26:02. | :26:03. | |
party's But allies of the leadership | :26:04. | :26:05. | |
frontrunner Diane James, These people are not fit | :26:06. | :26:08. | |
to run a village fate. So, whatever happens | :26:09. | :26:18. | |
with the leadership on Friday, is there going to be | :26:19. | :26:19. | |
a blood bath in Ukip? Some of it might be where people | :26:20. | :26:22. | |
will just choose themselves to leave the party or to remove themselves | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
from very public positions. But I think, ultimately, | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
whoever the new leader is, you're going to need a team | :26:31. | :26:32. | |
of people around you that you can trust and who are not going to spend | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
the next two or three years back-stabbing you and | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
trying to undermine you. The long-term success of Ukip | :26:41. | :26:46. | |
will depend on decisions made in the coming weeks and months | :26:47. | :26:49. | |
on policy, on personalities. The new leader will have | :26:50. | :26:52. | |
a lot of work to do. Joining me now is Steve Stanbury, | :26:53. | :26:58. | |
formerly Party Director of Ukip. Welcome to the programme. What do | :26:59. | :27:08. | |
you make of what is going on in the party, in Wales, particularly? Well, | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
Wales is a mess. Wales is very disorganised and lots of in-fighting | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
but I think that really is just the I to have the iceberg and actually | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
shows as there is a much wider, broader problem within Ukip in terms | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
of competence, in terms of people, in terms of not having good | :27:27. | :27:28. | |
candidates coming forward for the leadership. That has been a | :27:29. | :27:33. | |
nightmare. Actually, Jo, I think the bigger problem is not about | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
individuals and the factions, I think it is in terms of strategy and | :27:38. | :27:43. | |
what Ukip does in the future. The big question is - does Ukip have a | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
future s it relevant? Do you not think it is? I think really it's | :27:49. | :27:55. | |
best days are behind T I think Ukip has set out, fundamentally to | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
achieve what it was meant to do. Ukip's mission was to get a rev and | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
to contribute to the winning of that referendum and Ukip has done that | :28:04. | :28:06. | |
and done it well. But going forwards now, I think it is actually the | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
Conservative Party that is better-placed to actually now | :28:11. | :28:13. | |
deliver on Brexit and that's why, Jo, I have decided and I hope many | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
of my colleagues will, that I'm actually leaving Ukip and rejoining | :28:19. | :28:21. | |
the Conservative Party. That's it, it is over for you. You were a | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
long-standing member of u ki. You feel they have achieved what they | :28:26. | :28:28. | |
set out to do and you have left, defected? I have, I have gone back | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
to the Conservative Party for a number of reasons. Ukip set out what | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
it intended to do. The principal objective was to secure a | :28:38. | :28:41. | |
referendum. Before David Cameron, in January 2013, before he gave that | :28:42. | :28:43. | |
position, his position, the position of the Conservative Party was | :28:44. | :28:46. | |
against a referendum, to not let the people have a say. The referendum | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
was offered because of the pressure Ukip put on the Conservative Party. | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
Ukip played a big and positive role and actually winning the referendum. | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
Now, what we all need to do is deliver on Brexit. What I would say | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
to many of my colleagues and friends in Ukip, is come home, come back to | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
the Conservative Party, because that's where and how we can actually | :29:10. | :29:11. | |
deliver on Brexit. That's the priority now. It is not very loyal | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
of you, bearing in mind you have been part of this party which has | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
achieved in your own words "actually having a referendum on the EU." Our | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
relationship with the EU and achieved what you wanted, Brexit and | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
now you are going to run off and jointed Conservatives again I don't | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
think politics and parties should be looked at like brands, football | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
teams. It is about ideas and change and the sort of country we want to | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
have. Ukip's principles and policies in terms of giving the British | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
people a say and becoming a solve governing country again, we have | :29:48. | :29:50. | |
achieved that and now the best way to deliver on that... Is to go to | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
the party that Theresa May was a Remainer. Gowering going into a | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
party under a Prime Minister and leader who voted to Remain? Theresa | :30:01. | :30:06. | |
May was always regarded as a very reluctant and sceptical Remainer. | :30:07. | :30:09. | |
But look at her record and what she has said and what she is doing now | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
already. I think her appointments in the Cabinet, a leading role for most | :30:15. | :30:17. | |
of the Brexiteers, is really very good. I think Boris Johnson is an | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
excellent choice for Foreign Secretary and I think there is going | :30:23. | :30:25. | |
to be a lot of change in positive direction and also, I would say, the | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
way in which other ways, subtle but important ways in which the | :30:31. | :30:33. | |
Conservative Party is change a new education policy is great thing. | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
Scepticism on our wasteful, grotesquely wasteless foreign aid | :30:39. | :30:40. | |
budget. All is recovering core values that I believe will... I | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
don't think they're getting rid of it at the moment. You think they are | :30:45. | :30:50. | |
sticking to that spending. From GDP of 0.7%. Have you told Nigel Farage? | :30:51. | :30:56. | |
We are literally the second people to know? What did he say? | :30:57. | :31:02. | |
Disappointed but I think a lot of people... Did he try to make you | :31:03. | :31:08. | |
stay? No. I think a lot of people will follow in my footsteps. I kip | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
played a really important role in terms of our national story, our | :31:13. | :31:19. | |
national politics. We've got O'This wonderful place where we are a | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
self-governing country. The Conservative Party can be the only | :31:24. | :31:26. | |
party now that delivers on Brexit. That's the priority. This is the | :31:27. | :31:29. | |
sucks says of Theresa May and the Conservative Party. They're not | :31:30. | :31:32. | |
coming to the Labour Party, are they? I think a lot of the people | :31:33. | :31:40. | |
who voted to -- on Brexit to leave Europe are traditional Labour | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
voters. This there is a task for the Labour Party to bring them back into | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
the Labour fold. We were remain. But out of touch with a lot of your | :31:50. | :31:55. | |
voters when you look at the northern towns and cities who voted to leave. | :31:56. | :32:04. | |
I know more than anything, we had 12 elected BNP councillors elected in | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
2006. I know more than most, the importance of staying in touch with | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
your voters, reflecting the issues of concern, for me that's | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
immigration. I think that was wrongly exploited in the Brexit | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
campaign. Deeply regret that. Labour has that challenge of getting in | :32:23. | :32:25. | |
touch. Reare flecting that in what they say in Parliament. Does Owen | :32:26. | :32:31. | |
Smith's promise of a second referendum help in terms of bringing | :32:32. | :32:38. | |
back those marginalised voters who feel the party doesn't understand | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
them? I don't entirely go with Owen on that. You are supporting him? I | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
am on the broader front. We need to tackle immigration which is why I | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
think most people voted to leave Europe. I think it's really | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
important to engage with people to build a really strongly diverse | :32:59. | :33:01. | |
country that is at peace with it Elfself. Do you think it's a mistake | :33:02. | :33:07. | |
of Owen Smith to pursue this second rev reign dumb? We'll see. Every day | :33:08. | :33:13. | |
you wake up and listen to the news there's further delay in seeing what | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
that means in practice. The three people charged in looking at this | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
are spending their times rowing with each other on the Tory bench. We | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
heard today from the Germans that we're unlikely to be able to start | :33:29. | :33:31. | |
engaging after they've had their national... Doesn't mean it won't | :33:32. | :33:36. | |
happen? Depends how and when it happens. 9 details. Do you feel | :33:37. | :33:43. | |
you've let people down. Ukip was' just about leaving the EU. Always. | :33:44. | :33:49. | |
Ukip's principle purpose was to free Britain from the shackles of the EU. | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
You don't think it will survive? Not in its current form. I want the | :33:55. | :33:59. | |
Conservative Party to be successful. In order to deliver on Brexit. Then | :34:00. | :34:05. | |
take advantage of all the opportunities that flow from Brexit, | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
we will need a bigger Conservative majority. People need to rejoin the | :34:10. | :34:12. | |
Conservative Party. There will not be very much space for Ukip in that. | :34:13. | :34:14. | |
Steve, thank you. And you can see Nigel Farage's | :34:15. | :34:16. | |
farewell speech at the Ukip conference | :34:17. | :34:18. | |
on the Daily Politics tomorrow. We'll be on air at the slightly | :34:19. | :34:21. | |
earlier time of 11.30am Now, our guest of the day, Margaret | :34:22. | :34:24. | |
Hodge, chaired the Commons Public and she learned so much | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
about government waste, incompetence and corporate bad behaviour she's | :34:29. | :34:32. | |
even written a book about it. to help give the work of select | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
committees a far higher profile, after the chairmen became elected by | :34:37. | :34:42. | |
fellow MPs - rather than nominated Let's have a look at Margaret | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
and a few other moments where the committees have | :34:47. | :34:52. | |
made their mark. In that case, | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
you were either incredibly naive, and I don't think that the record | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
that you've shown of your performance here, as a guardian of | :35:03. | :35:10. | |
HSBC, gives me the confidence that you should be the guardian of the | :35:11. | :35:13. | |
BBC licence fee payers' money. I really do think you should | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
consider your position and you should think about resigning | :35:18. | :35:19. | |
and if not, I think Mr Murdoch, at what point did | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
you find out that criminality Endemic is a very hard - | :35:24. | :35:33. | |
a very wide-ranging word. Did the Bank of England consider | :35:34. | :35:45. | |
whether it was in the public interest to risk its | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
reputation of impartiality. I think those that cast it | :35:50. | :35:52. | |
into question should consider their motivations | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
and their judgments. Sir, do you mind not looking at me | :35:57. | :36:04. | |
like that all the time, You seem extraordinarily | :36:05. | :36:07. | |
thin-skinned to quite courteous questions, | :36:08. | :36:14. | |
as if you don't want to be challenged in any | :36:15. | :36:16. | |
way, shape or form... In terms of that wider corporate | :36:17. | :36:18. | |
governance point, in respect of the selling of BHS, did anybody, | :36:19. | :36:23. | |
particularly your non-exe directors say, "Phil I'm not entirely | :36:24. | :36:26. | |
certain this is correct, That doesn't seem to be the culture | :36:27. | :36:29. | |
of the organisation. he's Chairman of Public Affairs | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
at Weber Shandwick and he has prepared witnesses to | :36:35. | :36:45. | |
appear before the select committees. Someone's got to do it. Welcome to | :36:46. | :36:56. | |
the programme. So, Margaret Hodge, you've written this book and Jon has | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
brought it in. There it is. In terms of what you were trying to do on | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
that committee, do you think it was all about just getting publicity? | :37:05. | :37:11. | |
No. We used the power of the media to draw issues to the public | :37:12. | :37:15. | |
account. We have very few tools in our box. We're not an executive | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
body. The only way you can raise issues and make sure they're | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
properly discussed in public is to get people like you, Jo, interested | :37:25. | :37:30. | |
in them. I'm not ashamed of the fact we are, were, theatre. It's great | :37:31. | :37:33. | |
when you're theatre. You saw the best of the theatre in those clips | :37:34. | :37:38. | |
you did. It is the purpose. Was it theatre for its own end, no. It was | :37:39. | :37:43. | |
theatre to a purpose to draw people's attention to 2. Tax | :37:44. | :37:47. | |
avoidance, which you didn't cover, which raps was the most important | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
thing we did. If we hadn't brought the public into that and had that | :37:52. | :37:56. | |
extent of public fury at it, we might not be seeing the changes the | :37:57. | :38:02. | |
boardrooms we have today? . Do you agree with that select committees | :38:03. | :38:05. | |
are sexier than ever these days because of the issues brought to the | :38:06. | :38:11. | |
forein a he theatrical way? The Public Accounts Committee is an | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
honourable exception as it Margaret. It is backed up by the National | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
Audit Office and rigorous work around public spending which, as a | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
taxpayer, I really become. I've had half an hour on the books so far. It | :38:24. | :38:29. | |
as fabulously narrative and reflective tone. Anyone interested | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
in the process. My issue about select committees is they give a gym | :38:35. | :38:40. | |
crack accountability which is no substitute for really scoot Faizing | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
Parliament. Earlier this week, David Davis sailed through a Lord's and | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
Commons select committee on Brexit. They didn't put a finger on him at | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
all. That's no good. We might end up agreeing a lot on this. The role of | :38:54. | :38:58. | |
select committees, I really welcome the way they've emerged, I hope we | :38:59. | :39:03. | |
keep that there, the accountability of the executive is really | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
important. One reason they're all too often not effective, people look | :39:08. | :39:12. | |
at future policy. New ideas. If you're a the left tackling | :39:13. | :39:18. | |
inequality. On the right, privatisation, rather than looking | :39:19. | :39:20. | |
at how the Government's doing, the record of the Government. Our voters | :39:21. | :39:25. | |
out there care a lot of it's their money that's being used. They care | :39:26. | :39:29. | |
how programmes are being implemented, how money's spent. | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
Select committees could do more. As Ian write is doing, looking at | :39:34. | :39:36. | |
what's happening now than dreaming about what's in the future. Did they | :39:37. | :39:43. | |
go too far? You relate to it in your book. He provoked Gus, O'Donnell, | :39:44. | :39:49. | |
the head of the civil service at the time to say you were turning it into | :39:50. | :39:56. | |
a theatrical exercise in public humiliation. Did he have a point? | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
No, I have a lot of suggestions of things I'd like to change. One of | :40:02. | :40:06. | |
them is about the tradition of how civil servants account to | :40:07. | :40:10. | |
Parliament. At the moment, civil servants don't really account to | :40:11. | :40:12. | |
Parliament. They account to ministers who account to Parliament. | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
That all worked when there were 26 civil servants in the Home Office. | :40:17. | :40:22. | |
Today, there are 36,000. I feel they should be accountable to torment. | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
Gus O'Donnell disagrees with that. I think he's wrong. The current system | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
is broke. Should it be in front of the cameras? It lends itself to show | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
boating, grandstanding whoever is in front. If you took it off air, would | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
people get more out of these politicians and business people? I | :40:42. | :40:48. | |
do want them taken off air. The custard pie, Philip Green weirdness | :40:49. | :40:55. | |
and Dominic come I thinks appearance which is one to appreciate... We all | :40:56. | :41:05. | |
enjoyed it. But But for the public. It is about accountability. I think | :41:06. | :41:11. | |
members of Parliament, their role is to hold the executive to account on | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
behalf of the public. For the public to see it is really important. It | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
may be uncomfortable, sometimes feel trivial. I can tell you, what we | :41:21. | :41:26. | |
uncovered during the course of our inquiries really resonated with the | :41:27. | :41:29. | |
public. I can tell that from my inbox, from the letters I got. I | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
think it's an important way of bringing democracy closer to the | :41:34. | :41:36. | |
people. Before we carry on, there was news today, I don't know if you | :41:37. | :41:44. | |
came across it, a member of your public accounts committee, Justin | :41:45. | :41:49. | |
Tomlinson who's facings suspicion for leeking a report on payday | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
lenders Wonga. He's made a statement. I wanted to take this | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
opportunity to make a full under unrest everybodied apology to the | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
house. In 2013 I broke the rules of conduct by drafting on buck lick | :42:05. | :42:07. | |
accounts regarding the receiptinglation of consumer credit. | :42:08. | :42:13. | |
An investigation by the Parliament standards was investigating in 2015 | :42:14. | :42:18. | |
following a complaint made by won Ga. The reports submitted by the | :42:19. | :42:24. | |
commission of standards. I accept that my actions ensure in sharing | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
the report constituted intear fearence and for this I'm truly | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
sorry. This was never my intention. These actions came as a result of my | :42:34. | :42:39. | |
own naivety driven by a desire to strengthen regulations on payday | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
lenders and protect vulnerable consumers. Naivety, Margaret Hodge, | :42:44. | :42:48. | |
is putting it nicely? Should he be suspended? Do you know, I do think | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
in this particular instance it was naivety. It was an early time, he'd | :42:54. | :42:59. | |
only been on the committee for a couple of months. It was wrong. He | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
shouldn't have done it. I feel a bit sorry for him. You could see he was | :43:04. | :43:09. | |
responding in a very personal way. He sounded quite upset. Do you think | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
he should be suspended I think there is an issue overall about | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
committees, the piano should respect the process. Even when I'm preparing | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
witnesses, you must respect the process. You must answer the | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
questions being asked and you have to get your message across. In all | :43:29. | :43:34. | |
aspects the committees need a deep review and more resourcing to get | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
them in front of departments toe to toe to challenge them. We'll have | :43:40. | :43:45. | |
new select committees to scrutinise Brexit? One of the things I talk | :43:46. | :43:51. | |
about in the book when ministers tried to influence things which | :43:52. | :43:54. | |
happened in the committee is deeply wrong. I'll never probably prove it. | :43:55. | :44:00. | |
It was obvious to me people had been nobbled. Members of the committee. | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
By ministers. That was totally unacceptable. Are there too many | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
people on these committees? Sometimes the questions and | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
diversity, they go off on a tangent can sometimes lose a thread? The | :44:15. | :44:21. | |
quality is variable. There are occasional drowsy moments when | :44:22. | :44:24. | |
you're watching committees in progress. It's not always exciting. | :44:25. | :44:31. | |
Isn't isn't that good for your clients? Bore them to death is a | :44:32. | :44:37. | |
strategy. Drove me mad. The committees are the right size. We | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
need sharp members. What about this thrix the committee? It will be | :44:43. | :44:49. | |
chaired by a Labour MP? Is that it? Yes, should the post go to a | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
remainor like Hilary Benn or geese letter Stuart who is a Brexiteer? If | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
you want to reflect the Labour Party, it should be a remainor. It | :44:59. | :45:03. | |
would be a good balance against the direction of Government if you want | :45:04. | :45:06. | |
to hold it properly to account. Remember, the vote, whilst I'm not | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
for having another vote, the vote wasn't that unevenly balanced. Final | :45:12. | :45:16. | |
words of advice to your clients and then your committee members? It's | :45:17. | :45:21. | |
fundamentally work with the process. It is important even though I have | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
my criticisms of it. But don't be afraid to take advice. I know | :45:26. | :45:30. | |
Margaret the arend her fellow chairs have hated people being prepared. If | :45:31. | :45:35. | |
you look overprepared, it's useless. Respect the process, answer the | :45:36. | :45:39. | |
question. Get your message across. I don't think people need to be | :45:40. | :45:45. | |
prebared. If thaw came, were honest, answered directly, they didn't | :45:46. | :45:48. | |
waffle on, they would get a fair hearing. It's when people didn't | :45:49. | :45:53. | |
answer directly that they then got a rough time. I think we agree. You | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
enjoyed it? I did. I had five good years. I hope the purpose of the | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
book is not just to describe some of the hearings we had, but also to | :46:03. | :46:06. | |
make suggestion for the future. I hope they will be taken seriously | :46:07. | :46:08. | |
and debated. Jon, thank you. A new group will launch today | :46:09. | :46:15. | |
with the aim of winning the support of ethnic minority voters | :46:16. | :46:18. | |
for the Conservatives. The campaign group, Modern Britain, | :46:19. | :46:20. | |
aims to replicate grassroots campaigning techniques | :46:21. | :46:22. | |
being developed in Canada. Ethnic minority voters will play | :46:23. | :46:27. | |
an increasingly prominent role in future general elections, | :46:28. | :46:29. | |
with non-white people projected to make up 30% | :46:30. | :46:31. | |
of the population by 2050. Of the 20 seats the Conservative | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
Party has the best chance of gaining in 2020, 10 have a proportion | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
of ethnic-minority voters above 10%. In Ealing Central Acton, | :46:41. | :46:47. | |
for example, the Conservatives only have to overturn a 0.5% Labour | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
majority, while 29.9% of the electorate is black, | :46:53. | :46:55. | |
Asian or mixed. Research by British Influence | :46:56. | :47:03. | |
in the last general election suggests the Conservatives | :47:04. | :47:05. | |
have a long way to go to win They found Labour were winning 50% | :47:06. | :47:08. | |
of the Asian vote It was even more marked among black | :47:09. | :47:11. | |
voters, Labour winning 67% compared We're joined now by Kulveer Ranger, | :47:12. | :47:19. | |
he was an adviser to former London mayor, Boris Johnson, | :47:20. | :47:25. | |
and is now director of Modern Welcome to the Daily Politics. This | :47:26. | :47:35. | |
isn't the first time, obviously, the Conservatives say they want to | :47:36. | :47:39. | |
appeal more to ethnic minority voters. Why has it not worked in the | :47:40. | :47:42. | |
past? It is not the Conservatives saying T I am a Conservative but we | :47:43. | :47:47. | |
are doing this from outside the party. Sure but it is to attract | :47:48. | :47:52. | |
ethnic minorities to the Conservative Party. . Momentum for | :47:53. | :47:59. | |
the Conservative Party. If we were half as successful, you would be | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
pleased. I think the Conservatives have tried to attract ethnic | :48:05. | :48:10. | |
minority voters. We have had generational migration in. Like | :48:11. | :48:17. | |
Windrush. And u began da. Maybe the Conservatives weren't seen as | :48:18. | :48:20. | |
welcoming, maybe they thought they didn't need those votes, generally | :48:21. | :48:23. | |
outside the inner cities where the large pockets of immigrants tended | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
to be based but now we have seen internal migration, due to these | :48:29. | :48:31. | |
communities doing well, increasing in affluence, but there is still a | :48:32. | :48:34. | |
cultural bind that holds these communities together. We look at the | :48:35. | :48:44. | |
black community. Maybe it is around churches, carnival, religion and so | :48:45. | :48:47. | |
the voting pattern can remain although it is getting softer. That | :48:48. | :48:50. | |
makes it sound like the Conservative Party has never been interested in | :48:51. | :48:54. | |
appealing until ethnic minority voters until they realise they need | :48:55. | :48:57. | |
to if they are going to continue winning elections? I think that's | :48:58. | :49:01. | |
right. So they don't care about ethnic minority voters, is that what | :49:02. | :49:05. | |
you are saying? There has been short-term engagement when it comes | :49:06. | :49:08. | |
to an electoral cycle. We need a long-term understanding to build the | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
trust, especially nowadays where the vote is becoming more transactional. | :49:13. | :49:15. | |
People are looking around more and looking at what is happening on the | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
Labour side and in terms of the referendum, and they want it feel | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
people are hearing their voice and I think in a diverse, modern Britain | :49:24. | :49:26. | |
that we have, which is a success in the international world, in terms of | :49:27. | :49:29. | |
the different cultures that we have, I think the Conservative Party must | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
take a longer, strategic view of how it listens to these communities. So | :49:34. | :49:37. | |
is the Conservative Party brand still damaged in the eyes of the | :49:38. | :49:43. | |
minorities which is what Sajid Javid said - remember Enoch Powell and his | :49:44. | :49:47. | |
speeches, when he was a Conservative politician. I think there is a | :49:48. | :49:50. | |
generation that will remember that but there is a lot more now, second, | :49:51. | :49:55. | |
third, fourth generation, who will not recall Enoch Powell and will not | :49:56. | :50:00. | |
understand what the Rivers of Blood meant but will think of modern | :50:01. | :50:03. | |
Conservatism through the eyes of what David Cameron has done, the | :50:04. | :50:07. | |
engagement he started, his 2020 agenda. See what does that mean? | :50:08. | :50:14. | |
What wr is the waying of saying that policy development can be informal | :50:15. | :50:16. | |
from what those communities feel and want to address. The problem for | :50:17. | :50:23. | |
Labour is taking people for granted. It has lost Scotland and lost a lot | :50:24. | :50:27. | |
of Labour voters in heartland north. It could do the same for ethnic | :50:28. | :50:31. | |
minority voters that for whatever reason, tend to vote Labour? I | :50:32. | :50:35. | |
agree, actually, Jo. I think Labour can the no just assume that people | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
who traditionally voted Labour will continue to do this. Neither can the | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
Conservatives, I don't think any political party can work on the | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
assumption you are tribal. You have to constantly reach out to voters | :50:49. | :50:53. | |
and ensure you relate to the issues that matter to them and you have to | :50:54. | :50:57. | |
constantly ensure you are listening to what they say. So, yes, we have | :50:58. | :51:01. | |
to work to earn every ethnic minority vote that we have | :51:02. | :51:05. | |
traditionally had and we must learn the lessons of Scotland and not | :51:06. | :51:09. | |
presume T the only thing I would say to you is - on the whole - Labour | :51:10. | :51:15. | |
has a good record to what we have done to support ethnic minorities. | :51:16. | :51:18. | |
My feel would be that the anti-immigration stance that was | :51:19. | :51:24. | |
there in the Brexit campaign, would not help you encourage immigrant | :51:25. | :51:27. | |
communities to actually come over to the Conservative Party. I mean, you | :51:28. | :51:31. | |
have a problem - and I think although you say Cameron was a | :51:32. | :51:35. | |
different place, I agree. I think actually the Brexiteer who is won in | :51:36. | :51:38. | |
the Conservative Party, give a bad message it people or out of | :51:39. | :51:43. | |
immigrant communities. Briefly, do you think now we should be lumping | :51:44. | :51:48. | |
ethnic minority groups together. I mean they are really very different | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
and would that not help the general political integration of groups of | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
people? Yes, I cringe at the word "minority" in some areas it is | :51:58. | :52:00. | |
diverse communities, and it is not the minority but I think there are | :52:01. | :52:03. | |
cultural binds that hold them together. I agree that the | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
referendum vote and the return of the phrase like "go home lackey" | :52:08. | :52:13. | |
something I hadn't heard since I was a child, is something we need to | :52:14. | :52:19. | |
tackle this, we have been working a few of us, we have been working on | :52:20. | :52:24. | |
this for quite a long time now. I have been in the Conservative Party | :52:25. | :52:27. | |
for 15 years and understand some of the challenges but this is really | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
looking at the future and following on the engagement agenda. | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
Now, the Oxford and Cambridge boat race is one of the highlights of the | :52:36. | :52:39. | |
One of the less well-known highlights - maybe it's just more | :52:40. | :52:42. | |
of a light - is the annual race along a somewhat shorter stretch | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
of the Thames between the House of Commons and the House of Lords. | :52:47. | :52:49. | |
Over there, they are used to sticking their oars in. | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
Now the Lords and the Commons are about to do it for real, | :52:55. | :52:57. | |
on the River Thames in the annual parliamentary boat race in aid | :52:58. | :53:00. | |
of a charity called the International Sports | :53:01. | :53:02. | |
I thought rowers were meant to be buffer than that. | :53:03. | :53:07. | |
There's also a hearty doze of nautical humour. | :53:08. | :53:17. | |
You have to be careful of having a crab. | :53:18. | :53:21. | |
That's the biggest threat in the race. | :53:22. | :53:22. | |
When you get your oar in the wrong spot. | :53:23. | :53:25. | |
Something I'm very passionate about and also it is for a good | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
While people may think it's frivolous, we do some good as well. | :53:30. | :53:34. | |
I heard when you fall in on the Thames, you have | :53:35. | :53:36. | |
I don't know about that but I wouldn't suggest | :53:37. | :53:40. | |
Right, got my BBC obligatory life jacket, so I can get closer | :53:41. | :53:48. | |
This event has been happening for ten years now. | :53:49. | :53:50. | |
The Commons have won five times and the Lords have won four | :53:51. | :53:53. | |
As the teams cross the starting line at Lambeth Bridge, | :53:54. | :53:58. | |
Both trying to avoid what happened three years ago, | :53:59. | :54:02. | |
Now I'm no Clare Balding but it looks like their Lordships aren't | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
It's a baking hot day here in London but our elective representatives | :54:07. | :54:18. | |
Does this prove the primacy of the Commons over the Lords? | :54:19. | :54:28. | |
I don't think it will settle that forever. | :54:29. | :54:30. | |
But I notice some of the members of the House of Lords | :54:31. | :54:33. | |
are actually former members of the House of Commons. | :54:34. | :54:35. | |
Ah, so as soon as the race is over, they are back to rocking | :54:36. | :54:40. | |
At least they are on dry land again. O | :54:41. | :54:50. | |
and one of the losing peers, the Liberal Democrat Brian Paddick. | :54:51. | :54:55. | |
Welcome. At least you won't sink, hopefully on this programme. Can any | :54:56. | :55:02. | |
of you row? Yes, we can row. We are not as good as some of our | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
colleagues who may have got a at Oxford but we got over the finish | :55:08. | :55:10. | |
line without sipging. What happened last time We got caught under the | :55:11. | :55:17. | |
bridge, the boat was swamped and went over. How do you feel on the | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
losing side? Galling, to be honest. For the last two years we have won | :55:23. | :55:27. | |
but one of our novices caught a crab, knocked the other person off | :55:28. | :55:31. | |
his seat behind him, who ended up in the lap of the one behind. On a | :55:32. | :55:35. | |
short course, it is very difficult to recover. It is not very long, is | :55:36. | :55:39. | |
it, the course, when I think back to the races I see in the Thames? We | :55:40. | :55:45. | |
have to row up to the start line. You are exhausted before you start. | :55:46. | :55:51. | |
Exactly. You poor things Do you do training? We do. The Lords had an | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
unfortune event, their boat was swamped on their training. We went | :55:57. | :56:03. | |
training in Putney. They had to come in two halves to fit on the trailer. | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
We boat we went inp hadn't been bolted together properly. I was told | :56:09. | :56:12. | |
it was all right. It got up to seat level and that was the end of that. | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
I hope you can all swim. Health and safety, with the welcome welcome, it | :56:18. | :56:20. | |
sounds terrifying. But for a good cause. We raised ?10,000 for three | :56:21. | :56:28. | |
charities. They are the London Youth Rowing the Matt Hamp son Trust Fund | :56:29. | :56:34. | |
and the Company of Watermen and Lightmen. How competitive is it? I | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
think there is a bit of rivalry amongst some of the participants | :56:40. | :56:42. | |
like me, for example, but the important thing is we have a lot of | :56:43. | :56:47. | |
fun and we raise a lot of money for charity. Is it difficult to recruit | :56:48. | :56:50. | |
people to the boat? It is sometimes. And some people who raced yesterday | :56:51. | :56:54. | |
it was their first time in the boat. First time in? Yes. And were there | :56:55. | :57:02. | |
eight MPs? Seven. Six actually. They had some ringers. We had eight | :57:03. | :57:09. | |
genuine Lords in boat Isn't it harder in the Lords to find people | :57:10. | :57:14. | |
who want to do this? Bearing in mind of background of a lot of | :57:15. | :57:18. | |
hereditaries and Tories, you find a larger proportion of people who have | :57:19. | :57:21. | |
rowed before than perhaps in the Commons. Maybe they have the | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
advantage. What about a women's team or mixed team? I have never heard of | :57:26. | :57:32. | |
it. I'm really upset. I have a loud voice, I'm short... You could be the | :57:33. | :57:39. | |
cox. Sign Margaret up, you know. Why isn't it mixed? In previous years we | :57:40. | :57:46. | |
have had some women. Kelly Tilhurst wanted to race. She injured her arm | :57:47. | :57:52. | |
so couldn't do it. And we had a blue at Oxford. Everybody went to Oxford | :57:53. | :57:59. | |
and Cambridge. Oh, they didn't do it at your university, LSC? I had never | :58:00. | :58:04. | |
rowed before I started this three years ago. I went to the wrong | :58:05. | :58:07. | |
school, obviously. What about, are you going to do it in the next few | :58:08. | :58:13. | |
years? Absolutely. Going down to Putney on a weekday morning when the | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
sun is shining, it is absolutely beautiful and I would really | :58:18. | :58:20. | |
encourage people to come down and have a go because it really is great | :58:21. | :58:24. | |
fun. And it was a beautiful day. It was. With the success of the | :58:25. | :58:28. | |
Olympics as well, rowing is becoming more of an interest sport. Something | :58:29. | :58:32. | |
else we are trying to promote. As Brian said, the view of the House of | :58:33. | :58:37. | |
Commons and House of Parliament from the river. Well an expansion of tug | :58:38. | :58:43. | |
of war and Parliamently dog of the year, and whatever else I have had | :58:44. | :58:45. | |
to do recently. Just time to reveal - | :58:46. | :58:47. | |
because we forgot to yesterday - that the answer to | :58:48. | :58:51. | |
Guess the Year was 1973. | :58:52. | :58:54. |