15/09/2016 Daily Politics


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.


She's certainly given it plenty of thought.


Now Theresa May's decided to give the green light


to the first new UK nuclear plant for 20 years.


After much deliberation, the government says the French


and the Chinese will build the Hinckley Point power station.


Although ministers say they've imposed tough new conditions.


Labour's leadership contest enters the final lap.


We'll be asking how Owen Smith measured up against Jeremy Corbyn


Ukip's got its own problems with party unity.


We've been to Wales to see if a new leader can build


And it's not exactly Oxford v Cambridge,


but we've been to see MPs and peers putting their oars in


for their very own boat race on the Thames.


And with us for the whole of the programme today


She was a minister under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown,


but is probably best known for grilling public figures


as head of a high profile Commons Committee.


One anonymous member of her committee once compared her


Which, believe it or not, was meant to be a compliment... of sorts.


Let's begin today with the government's decision


to go ahead with the construction of a nuclear power station


The ?18 billion project, which is being financed by the French


and the Chinese, was put on hold by Theresa May soon after she became


Prime Minister amid reports that she had concerns


about Chinese involvement in Britain's nuclear power industry.


Although ministers say they will impose "significant new safeguards"


Here's the Business Secretary Greg Clark speaking earlier.


It's an important upgrade of our energy supplies


for the next six years, contributing 7% of clean,


reliable energy and a major step forward for our new


nuclear power programme and an ?18 billion investment in the economy,


So, the government's made its mind up.


What, if anything, has changed since the decision was put on hold?


Let's talk to our correspondent Ben Wright.


Has anything changed? We've heard them talking about tough new


safeguards. Do we know what they might be? It doesn't seem as if a


great deal's changed so far. In terms of the structure of this deal.


The Chinese involvement, the price that will be paid for electricity.


There is this change around the question of the UK having a special


share option in the future that would enable them to block the sale


of a stake that other companies like EDF have in future infrastructure


projects like this. Number Ten say this is quite a big change in


securing Britain's national security going forward. But I think there


will be many who will ask after this remarkably, after this big surprise


in this huge deal, was it worth it or is this a lot of political


theatre to show Theresa May is pressing the reset button, really?


There will be some who are asking that questions today. It will go aid


head. There's something about the French having to rubber-stamp it or


EDF having to stamp it? It will go ahead? It will. Theresa May spoke to


President Hollande about this just before the deal was announced once


again. The beep mats between China and the UK have -- diplomats between


China and the UK have talked about it. Labour have asked for guarantees


that the Bradwell station that is now likely to be built, that


controversial Chinese power plant, they're asking for guarantees that


means Chinese workers won't couple to the UK to take care of that. Also


the price being paid. This will go ahead despite this surprising


two-month pause we've seen. Thank you.


We're joined now by the former Energy Secretary Ed Davey.


He was the coalition minister who struck the deal


Welcome to the Daily Politics. We've had this pause. Do you think there's


anything different in this deal from what you can tell? Eyed like to hear


the details. This special share they're talking about to help on


national security issues was something I proposed when we were in


Government. The Liberal Democrats were arguing for it. Unfortunately


George Osborne said he didn't want it and overruled us. So, I'm glad to


see it. You're pleased? I think it's the sensible thing and why I


proposed it a few years ago. How surprised were you about the pause?


Quite surprised. I think they've managed to annoy the Chinese, the


French, annoy other people investing. There thereby an extra


political risk for people wanting to invest in the UK. It's not been


Clifford and very well handled by Theresa May and her team. If it


results in a project which will help us tackle climate change through low


carbon and has this extra national security guarantee with a special


share, it is a the right thing to do. You were the minister in


coalition who wanted this deal. What about those saying the Hinkley Point


should be abandoned? I'm not surprised. Tim far lop has always


been sceptical about nuclear power. He's the leader. Is he wrong? I


think I he is. If you're going to tackle climate change we need a lot


of low carbon electricity from wind, sole auricular, tidal. I'm the


British minister who commissioned another renewable power in history.


I love renewables. I don't think they can do it alone. We need


electricity for heating, transport and power. That's a lot of green


electricity. Nuclear can help as part of a mix. Do you agree with


that? We need nuclear as part of the mix. This is a Liberal Democrat who


believes and loves renewables. Ed knows more than I am. I'm skeptical


about this particular issuement we looked at it when I was chair of the


Public Accounts Committee. It is hugely expensive. According to the


recent national audit figures they are worse than the ones you showed


at the top of the programme Jo. The subsidy to ED if will be ?30


billion. The prize is double the price of electricity as it is now


because the price of oil has gone down. The other thing is, this is a


big, big project. The Finns are trying to build a similar


capability. It was supposed to be completed from 2009. Now it will be


finished in 2018. This tends to be in the van they project area. I


would rather see smaller nuclear projects and other capabilities to


make sure the lights are kept on. You would like to see it abandoned?


I'm a sceptic. Not because imI'm anti-nuclear. He discussed the price


at the time. It seems incredibly hi when you look at her forms of


energy. ?92.50 at mega watts per hour. How can that be good for the


taxpayer? I don't know. No-one can know if it's value for money. We


only start paying for electricity if it's build. Let's say that's 2025


and 9 contract last for 35 years, to know whether it is good for money,


you have to know the price of electricity at that time and the


price of carbon. Maybe Margaret and the National Audit Office know that,


I don't know it. I'm afraid, I'm sorry, the reality is one has to


take decisions in Government because it's not just price, you have to


think about climate change which is criticalnd insecurity. The three


together. We've had to invest in rue knewables at a higher price than


this -- renewables. Ed, when you settle a price, you settle it


against projections that your committeeists will undertake. Of


course. But do you know what, the wholesale price of electricity has


changed in two years by a lot. It changes all the time. The economists


tell you that. Of course it changes all the time. Looking at today's


figures, it looks acrazily expensive option. But that's the mistake


you're making. Do you say you're making a stab in the dark? Can t


could make other forms of energy cheaper? You're right, there are a


lot of uncertainties in energy policy. Not just prices but what


technology will do. You just don't know. Sometimes you have to come to


a decision. Given this is the right for keeping the lights on, can plug


their kettles on watch TV, given it is the right decision to tackle


climate change, it is weird people say they know the price between 2025


and 2060. It may not be the right decision to keep the lights on or


given the speed at which technology's changes. What would you


do? What I hear from experts, I accept Ed's more technical expertise


than I have, what I heard is nuclear technology's changing much more


quickly. There are smaller stations you can build much more rapidly.


Make sure the lights are on better. What I also hear... That's not true.


I also hear renewables are developing quickly, becoming cheaper


more quickly. Solar is becoming more viable than it was a few years ago.


Going for this big vanity project may not be the quality of what we


want. I don't disagree with a lot of what you've said, Margaret. I'm a


huge fan of solar, wind, tidal. Why not use those more? If we're going


to tackle climate change seriously, the truth is, if you put all your


eggs in one basket then you are putting a risk in the fight against


climate change. I believe we should invest in all these low carbon


technologies. The threat of climate Church of England is existential.


When you last talked to me about this, it is a massive public


subsidy? The policy of the coalition is nuclear would get no extra


advantages over other forms of low carbon. It is a new subsidy? No


extra support against others. If it is no subsidy against others... Hang


on, Ed, it is an extra cost to the user. That's the point when we


looked at all the investment, there's an 18% increase in the bills


to the energy user in their bills from the capital investment. Do you


believe the polluter should pay? Yeah. If you do you, and you look at


the price of coal and gas, they should have a carbon #3r50is


attached to them. Nobody when they discuss this does that. Coal and gas


are causing climate change. They don't pay their true costs. If they


did, renewables and nuclear would seem much more effective. I might


agree with you on that one. Jeremy Corbyn was cheered


by Labour MPs as he took on Theresa May over grammar schools


at PMQs yesterday. But, in case you'd forgotten,


he's still fighting a leadership a challenger backed by the majority


of the parliamentary Labour Party. They held the final hustings of the


contest last night on Sky News, and the exchanges


were fairly tough. Do I regret the fact


that some colleagues, including Owen, decided to resign


from the Shadow Cabinet, hence we are having this


leadership contest? I simply say to them -


once this leadership contest is over, let's come together,


let's come together and campaign How many seats do we need to win


to beat the Tories? You know as well as I do


we need to win at least 90? No, we don't, we need to win


106, Jeremy. I worry that the leader


of the Labour Party doesn't know how many seats we need


to win from the Tories. I am just so angry at what the rest


of the Labour Party We're joined now by the journalist


Rachel Shabi, she's a supporter of Jeremy Corbyn, and Margaret Hodge


is still with us, How did Owen Smith do? I have to be


honest, I didn't watch the programme last night. Over All? I think he's


doing extremely well. He's got better. The most important thing is


there is a real distinction between the two of them. Owen Smith


understands what the Labour Party was founded for, and that was to


gain power and form Government. It was never founded as a pressure


groupment there are plenty of other ways Rachel and others can spend


their time in other avenues rather than being members of a pressure


group. What do you say to that? How do you think Jeremy Corbyn did? I


think both of the candidates in the leadership contest understand they


want to be leaders of the party in order to get into power. Because


what would be the point otherwise. People want to put their politics


into power. Jeremy Corbyn wants and needs to be in power to effect all


of kind of policy changes and transformations he wants to bring


about and that have caused over half a million members to support his


party. Not to be in a pressure group? Clearly not a pressure group,


clearly a party that's in Parliament and wants to be in power. The


interesting thing is, were that the case, I'm delighted to hear Rachel


say that, he wouldn't be listening to a relatively small bunch of


people... Are you talking about Momentum? He would be listening to


the nine million people who voted Labour and in my constituency at the


last election. Relating to their concerns and concerned with


increasing the number of people who vote Labour next time. If you look


at every opinion poll, every analysis done of his actual personal


credibility, we are doing worse than we have ever done probably in our


entire history. What do you say for that? You know


the poll ratings are disastrous, the worst-ever for aide leer at this


point. Jeremy Corbyn's personal ratings are 64 points behind Theresa


May. Can Labour win a general election from that point? I think


the most important thing to say is that the Labour Party has problems


and is in crisis and that has nothing to do with the leader.


Nothing to do with Jeremy Corbyn The Labour Party has struggled in


elections, haemorrhaging voters, regardless of the leader. How long


are you taking that back for? Tony Blair won three elections for a row.


We were in Government for 13 years. The Labour Party has been


haemorrhaging. Let Rachael finish. You are saying since Ed Miliband?


I'm saying the Labour Party is in crisis, and that would be the case


whoever was the leader and the truth of the matter is that neither of us


knows, how Jeremy Corbyn would perform. Because we haven't seen


what he could do. We haven't seen what he could do with a united


party, with all the talents and capabilities of MPs like you, behind


him. He haven't seen what he could do with 500,000 people supporting


him in the party, the biggest membership of any party across


Europe. When that group of people is galvanised ape put into effect in


canvasses and campaigns and gets out and talks to people on the streets,


we don't know what the result will be. Margaret... I talk to people all


the time. Hang on, it is clear that Jeremy Corbyn is going to win the


leadership election. Not necessarily. Lets Ayerza superhe has


won it Not necessarily. If he does, is it time for MPs, Labour MPs who


had no confidence in him before to unite behind him? I think what, you


know, it is very difficult. I think ofry Member of Parliament will have


to make their own decision. I'm afraid I'm in the camp that believes


that Jeremy Corbyn with his policies. This is not in anyway


personal. I have known and liked him personally. I think it is the camp


from which he comes, I know #4i78 from the '80s, Jo, when you were


first in television and I was active in politics. Their interest is not


in gaining power, it is in destroying capitalism and trying to


overthrow the current system. That's where they come from. Therefore, I


shall always be in the camp on trying to secure a leadership in


Parliament that actually brings... Can I say one other thing, if you


have lost the support of over 80% of your Members of Parliament, from all


whiches of the party, if all of them choose to resign, I think, actually


the grown-up thing to do, the thing with integrity to do is to walk away


and allow the party in Parliament to then have a leader that they can...


He clearly is not doing that and hasn't up until now. In terms of


unity, do you think that cause was helped by a leak of a list of Labour


MPs who have been disloyal to Jeremy Corbyn, was then sort of let out by


a member of the team. Will that help unify the Parliamentary Labour


Party. I want to answer that question but I want to respond to


that point. Destroy capitalism is quite a label to put on people whose


politics are in line with a lot of popular thinking when it comes this


things like investment in public infrastructure and the


renationalisation of public services and fairer taxation, reducing


inequality. Supporting the welfare state. I think those policies are


actually quite reasonable. And the sort of policies that will resonate


for people who struggle every day, as a result of the politics imposed


by this current Government. They haven't resonated so far. Answer the


question about the list of MPs. This was a mistake. It was devastating to


see that happen, especially on the same day that we saw the Labour


Party, how brilliant and effective an opposition it could be when it


was united over a cause and with its leader. It was a mistake. It is


important to remember that the campaign is very separate from the


leadership office. The two have nothing to do with each other and


while the campaign, of course it is trying to fight a leadership battle,


is going to have that mentality about it, the leadership office and


his team are not about battle any more, they are actually about unite


and reconciliation. We can see that from the way... There is no


crossover when the two. As I understand it, the two are in tact


and now we can see the which is do. It is important for the Labour Party


leadership to be now talking about... Doesn't it undermine Jeremy


Corbyn's whole argument about a cinder, gentler politics and trying


to unify and reach out to empoo. It did the opposite. I think it was a


mistake and I think the campaign team swiftly realised the mistake


and apologised for T I think Jeremy Corbyn's team is talking very much


about unity. We saw him talking about unity last night in the debate


with Owen Smith. That's where the party needs to be thinking right


now. What about, then, the performance of Jeremy Corbyn at


PMQs, it was his best PMQs. He won MMQs and there were lots of Labour


MPs who don't support him Jeremy Corbyn, tweeting high praise of that


performance yesterday. If he were to go on issues that unify the


Parliamentary Labour Party, could there be cause for the two sides


coming together? I think there is a lot of underlying values and


policies on which probably Rachael and I agree, I agree it is a


mistake. I think what is interesting, if you are a leader of


a party, you are the leader of the parliamentary party as well as other


parts of the party and every grouping has dissenters and people


who have a different view. As the leader it is your job, actually, if


somebody disagrees, you bring them in, you don't publicly admonish


them. Which he didn't do. Which he has never done. To be honest, I


don't make this distinction, the leader is the leader of the leader's


office. He has to be responsible for all those working for him. He is


also the candidate. He has to be responsible for the team working for


him. To say it is somebody else's fault, it is not me I am eight Mr


Nice Guy, I don't buy that. It is central to the whole of the way that


the system operates, I'm afraid under Jeremy Corbyn. But whatever


you think about it, obviously we are going to disagree with, that I


separate the two. I think he has been talking about uniony. #r5rdless


t doesn't matter, what matters now is getting the party to unite -- -


regardless, it doesn't matter. It is about getting the party to unite.


There was a discussion between Jeremy Corbyn and Owen Smith about


how many seats they needed to win the next election. We can argue


about the numbers another time. But as it stands to have a majority of


one, Labour needs to win a seat like base I think stone with a Tory


majority of 10,000. It has never had a Labour MP, do you think that's


possible under Jeremy Corbyn? I think we are looking at a country


that post-Brexit feels worried and insecure. We have the highest levels


of inequality. People are worried daily about how they are going to


make it from week-to-week... Sure but can they win a seat like basing


stone With 500,000 peel behind Labour, campaigning, discussing the


issues on the streets, maybe they can be persuaded. We don't know. All


right. Thank you. It's not just Labour that's picking


a new leader at the moment. The ballot for the next leader


of Ukip closed just as we came on air, and the successor


to Nigel Farage is due to be announced at the party


conference tomorrow. the party's having a struggle to put


on a united front. Ellie's been to Wales,


where the party scored a major win in elections earlier this year,


to find out more. Who do EU think you're kidding


Mr Smith, This is what taking the fight


to Labour looks like. Ukip campaigners outside


the constituency office of the Labour Leadership


contender Owen Smith. The party sees an opportunity in


Labour heartlands where the vote to leave the EU


was above the national average. As with most of the Welsh valleys,


there's been a Labour MP here in Yet, there's evidence


Ukip is making inroads. the party came second


in the last general election. in this year's Welsh Assembly


elections. But the challenge here will be


convincing voters that Ukip still has a role following that


Brexit vote. Perhaps, I think it might


be the end of them. They seem a bit disjointed


in Wales, don't they? Would you vote Ukip?


No. Have you ever voted Ukip?


No. Do you think Ukip can start


winning here in Wales? Well, yes, I'd like to think


they could, yeah. And there's another problem


round the corner too. The internal divisions within Ukip


have been well publicised. On the one side, you've those


loyal to Nigel Farage. On the other, a camp of people who


felt sidelined by his leadership. The likes of Douglas Carswell,


the party's only MP. I'm told the two men haven't spoken


since before the EU referendum. But if you think that's bad,


welcome to the Welsh Assembly. He says he's the Ukip leader in


Wales, but he's a Ukip MEP for Wales but that he sits as an independent


on the Welsh Assembly. The reason for that is I just felt


it was impossible to work within the group of some of the Assembly


Members here. I didn't want to be


associated with them. They were basically working


against the party, the leadership. I felt it important to distance


myself from them. He's talking in particular


about Neil Hamilton. that he's no longer a member of the


Ukip group in the Assembly. Hasn't had the courtesy to write


to me to tell me that. His fundamental problem is he hasn't


been able to get over the fact that he didn't have the confidence


of his colleagues Doesn't reflect very well


on the party, does it? No, it doesn't reflect


very well on him. He doesn't exactly have a cuddly


relationship with Nigel Farage. But he does have friends on the


party's But allies of the leadership


frontrunner Diane James, These people are not fit


to run a village fate. So, whatever happens


with the leadership on Friday, is there going to be


a blood bath in Ukip? Some of it might be where people


will just choose themselves to leave the party or to remove themselves


from very public positions. But I think, ultimately,


whoever the new leader is, you're going to need a team


of people around you that you can trust and who are not going to spend


the next two or three years back-stabbing you and


trying to undermine you. The long-term success of Ukip


will depend on decisions made in the coming weeks and months


on policy, on personalities. The new leader will have


a lot of work to do. Joining me now is Steve Stanbury,


formerly Party Director of Ukip. Welcome to the programme. What do


you make of what is going on in the party, in Wales, particularly? Well,


Wales is a mess. Wales is very disorganised and lots of in-fighting


but I think that really is just the I to have the iceberg and actually


shows as there is a much wider, broader problem within Ukip in terms


of competence, in terms of people, in terms of not having good


candidates coming forward for the leadership. That has been a


nightmare. Actually, Jo, I think the bigger problem is not about


individuals and the factions, I think it is in terms of strategy and


what Ukip does in the future. The big question is - does Ukip have a


future s it relevant? Do you not think it is? I think really it's


best days are behind T I think Ukip has set out, fundamentally to


achieve what it was meant to do. Ukip's mission was to get a rev and


to contribute to the winning of that referendum and Ukip has done that


and done it well. But going forwards now, I think it is actually the


Conservative Party that is better-placed to actually now


deliver on Brexit and that's why, Jo, I have decided and I hope many


of my colleagues will, that I'm actually leaving Ukip and rejoining


the Conservative Party. That's it, it is over for you. You were a


long-standing member of u ki. You feel they have achieved what they


set out to do and you have left, defected? I have, I have gone back


to the Conservative Party for a number of reasons. Ukip set out what


it intended to do. The principal objective was to secure a


referendum. Before David Cameron, in January 2013, before he gave that


position, his position, the position of the Conservative Party was


against a referendum, to not let the people have a say. The referendum


was offered because of the pressure Ukip put on the Conservative Party.


Ukip played a big and positive role and actually winning the referendum.


Now, what we all need to do is deliver on Brexit. What I would say


to many of my colleagues and friends in Ukip, is come home, come back to


the Conservative Party, because that's where and how we can actually


deliver on Brexit. That's the priority now. It is not very loyal


of you, bearing in mind you have been part of this party which has


achieved in your own words "actually having a referendum on the EU." Our


relationship with the EU and achieved what you wanted, Brexit and


now you are going to run off and jointed Conservatives again I don't


think politics and parties should be looked at like brands, football


teams. It is about ideas and change and the sort of country we want to


have. Ukip's principles and policies in terms of giving the British


people a say and becoming a solve governing country again, we have


achieved that and now the best way to deliver on that... Is to go to


the party that Theresa May was a Remainer. Gowering going into a


party under a Prime Minister and leader who voted to Remain? Theresa


May was always regarded as a very reluctant and sceptical Remainer.


But look at her record and what she has said and what she is doing now


already. I think her appointments in the Cabinet, a leading role for most


of the Brexiteers, is really very good. I think Boris Johnson is an


excellent choice for Foreign Secretary and I think there is going


to be a lot of change in positive direction and also, I would say, the


way in which other ways, subtle but important ways in which the


Conservative Party is change a new education policy is great thing.


Scepticism on our wasteful, grotesquely wasteless foreign aid


budget. All is recovering core values that I believe will... I


don't think they're getting rid of it at the moment. You think they are


sticking to that spending. From GDP of 0.7%. Have you told Nigel Farage?


We are literally the second people to know? What did he say?


Disappointed but I think a lot of people... Did he try to make you


stay? No. I think a lot of people will follow in my footsteps. I kip


played a really important role in terms of our national story, our


national politics. We've got O'This wonderful place where we are a


self-governing country. The Conservative Party can be the only


party now that delivers on Brexit. That's the priority. This is the


sucks says of Theresa May and the Conservative Party. They're not


coming to the Labour Party, are they? I think a lot of the people


who voted to -- on Brexit to leave Europe are traditional Labour


voters. This there is a task for the Labour Party to bring them back into


the Labour fold. We were remain. But out of touch with a lot of your


voters when you look at the northern towns and cities who voted to leave.


I know more than anything, we had 12 elected BNP councillors elected in


2006. I know more than most, the importance of staying in touch with


your voters, reflecting the issues of concern, for me that's


immigration. I think that was wrongly exploited in the Brexit


campaign. Deeply regret that. Labour has that challenge of getting in


touch. Reare flecting that in what they say in Parliament. Does Owen


Smith's promise of a second referendum help in terms of bringing


back those marginalised voters who feel the party doesn't understand


them? I don't entirely go with Owen on that. You are supporting him? I


am on the broader front. We need to tackle immigration which is why I


think most people voted to leave Europe. I think it's really


important to engage with people to build a really strongly diverse


country that is at peace with it Elfself. Do you think it's a mistake


of Owen Smith to pursue this second rev reign dumb? We'll see. Every day


you wake up and listen to the news there's further delay in seeing what


that means in practice. The three people charged in looking at this


are spending their times rowing with each other on the Tory bench. We


heard today from the Germans that we're unlikely to be able to start


engaging after they've had their national... Doesn't mean it won't


happen? Depends how and when it happens. 9 details. Do you feel


you've let people down. Ukip was' just about leaving the EU. Always.


Ukip's principle purpose was to free Britain from the shackles of the EU.


You don't think it will survive? Not in its current form. I want the


Conservative Party to be successful. In order to deliver on Brexit. Then


take advantage of all the opportunities that flow from Brexit,


we will need a bigger Conservative majority. People need to rejoin the


Conservative Party. There will not be very much space for Ukip in that.


Steve, thank you. And you can see Nigel Farage's


farewell speech at the Ukip conference


on the Daily Politics tomorrow. We'll be on air at the slightly


earlier time of 11.30am Now, our guest of the day, Margaret


Hodge, chaired the Commons Public and she learned so much


about government waste, incompetence and corporate bad behaviour she's


even written a book about it. to help give the work of select


committees a far higher profile, after the chairmen became elected by


fellow MPs - rather than nominated Let's have a look at Margaret


and a few other moments where the committees have


made their mark. In that case,


you were either incredibly naive, and I don't think that the record


that you've shown of your performance here, as a guardian of


HSBC, gives me the confidence that you should be the guardian of the


BBC licence fee payers' money. I really do think you should


consider your position and you should think about resigning


and if not, I think Mr Murdoch, at what point did


you find out that criminality Endemic is a very hard -


a very wide-ranging word. Did the Bank of England consider


whether it was in the public interest to risk its


reputation of impartiality. I think those that cast it


into question should consider their motivations


and their judgments. Sir, do you mind not looking at me


like that all the time, You seem extraordinarily


thin-skinned to quite courteous questions,


as if you don't want to be challenged in any


way, shape or form... In terms of that wider corporate


governance point, in respect of the selling of BHS, did anybody,


particularly your non-exe directors say, "Phil I'm not entirely


certain this is correct, That doesn't seem to be the culture


of the organisation. he's Chairman of Public Affairs


at Weber Shandwick and he has prepared witnesses to


appear before the select committees. Someone's got to do it. Welcome to


the programme. So, Margaret Hodge, you've written this book and Jon has


brought it in. There it is. In terms of what you were trying to do on


that committee, do you think it was all about just getting publicity?


No. We used the power of the media to draw issues to the public


account. We have very few tools in our box. We're not an executive


body. The only way you can raise issues and make sure they're


properly discussed in public is to get people like you, Jo, interested


in them. I'm not ashamed of the fact we are, were, theatre. It's great


when you're theatre. You saw the best of the theatre in those clips


you did. It is the purpose. Was it theatre for its own end, no. It was


theatre to a purpose to draw people's attention to 2. Tax


avoidance, which you didn't cover, which raps was the most important


thing we did. If we hadn't brought the public into that and had that


extent of public fury at it, we might not be seeing the changes the


boardrooms we have today? . Do you agree with that select committees


are sexier than ever these days because of the issues brought to the


forein a he theatrical way? The Public Accounts Committee is an


honourable exception as it Margaret. It is backed up by the National


Audit Office and rigorous work around public spending which, as a


taxpayer, I really become. I've had half an hour on the books so far. It


as fabulously narrative and reflective tone. Anyone interested


in the process. My issue about select committees is they give a gym


crack accountability which is no substitute for really scoot Faizing


Parliament. Earlier this week, David Davis sailed through a Lord's and


Commons select committee on Brexit. They didn't put a finger on him at


all. That's no good. We might end up agreeing a lot on this. The role of


select committees, I really welcome the way they've emerged, I hope we


keep that there, the accountability of the executive is really


important. One reason they're all too often not effective, people look


at future policy. New ideas. If you're a the left tackling


inequality. On the right, privatisation, rather than looking


at how the Government's doing, the record of the Government. Our voters


out there care a lot of it's their money that's being used. They care


how programmes are being implemented, how money's spent.


Select committees could do more. As Ian write is doing, looking at


what's happening now than dreaming about what's in the future. Did they


go too far? You relate to it in your book. He provoked Gus, O'Donnell,


the head of the civil service at the time to say you were turning it into


a theatrical exercise in public humiliation. Did he have a point?


No, I have a lot of suggestions of things I'd like to change. One of


them is about the tradition of how civil servants account to


Parliament. At the moment, civil servants don't really account to


Parliament. They account to ministers who account to Parliament.


That all worked when there were 26 civil servants in the Home Office.


Today, there are 36,000. I feel they should be accountable to torment.


Gus O'Donnell disagrees with that. I think he's wrong. The current system


is broke. Should it be in front of the cameras? It lends itself to show


boating, grandstanding whoever is in front. If you took it off air, would


people get more out of these politicians and business people? I


do want them taken off air. The custard pie, Philip Green weirdness


and Dominic come I thinks appearance which is one to appreciate... We all


enjoyed it. But But for the public. It is about accountability. I think


members of Parliament, their role is to hold the executive to account on


behalf of the public. For the public to see it is really important. It


may be uncomfortable, sometimes feel trivial. I can tell you, what we


uncovered during the course of our inquiries really resonated with the


public. I can tell that from my inbox, from the letters I got. I


think it's an important way of bringing democracy closer to the


people. Before we carry on, there was news today, I don't know if you


came across it, a member of your public accounts committee, Justin


Tomlinson who's facings suspicion for leeking a report on payday


lenders Wonga. He's made a statement. I wanted to take this


opportunity to make a full under unrest everybodied apology to the


house. In 2013 I broke the rules of conduct by drafting on buck lick


accounts regarding the receiptinglation of consumer credit.


An investigation by the Parliament standards was investigating in 2015


following a complaint made by won Ga. The reports submitted by the


commission of standards. I accept that my actions ensure in sharing


the report constituted intear fearence and for this I'm truly


sorry. This was never my intention. These actions came as a result of my


own naivety driven by a desire to strengthen regulations on payday


lenders and protect vulnerable consumers. Naivety, Margaret Hodge,


is putting it nicely? Should he be suspended? Do you know, I do think


in this particular instance it was naivety. It was an early time, he'd


only been on the committee for a couple of months. It was wrong. He


shouldn't have done it. I feel a bit sorry for him. You could see he was


responding in a very personal way. He sounded quite upset. Do you think


he should be suspended I think there is an issue overall about


committees, the piano should respect the process. Even when I'm preparing


witnesses, you must respect the process. You must answer the


questions being asked and you have to get your message across. In all


aspects the committees need a deep review and more resourcing to get


them in front of departments toe to toe to challenge them. We'll have


new select committees to scrutinise Brexit? One of the things I talk


about in the book when ministers tried to influence things which


happened in the committee is deeply wrong. I'll never probably prove it.


It was obvious to me people had been nobbled. Members of the committee.


By ministers. That was totally unacceptable. Are there too many


people on these committees? Sometimes the questions and


diversity, they go off on a tangent can sometimes lose a thread? The


quality is variable. There are occasional drowsy moments when


you're watching committees in progress. It's not always exciting.


Isn't isn't that good for your clients? Bore them to death is a


strategy. Drove me mad. The committees are the right size. We


need sharp members. What about this thrix the committee? It will be


chaired by a Labour MP? Is that it? Yes, should the post go to a


remainor like Hilary Benn or geese letter Stuart who is a Brexiteer? If


you want to reflect the Labour Party, it should be a remainor. It


would be a good balance against the direction of Government if you want


to hold it properly to account. Remember, the vote, whilst I'm not


for having another vote, the vote wasn't that unevenly balanced. Final


words of advice to your clients and then your committee members? It's


fundamentally work with the process. It is important even though I have


my criticisms of it. But don't be afraid to take advice. I know


Margaret the arend her fellow chairs have hated people being prepared. If


you look overprepared, it's useless. Respect the process, answer the


question. Get your message across. I don't think people need to be


prebared. If thaw came, were honest, answered directly, they didn't


waffle on, they would get a fair hearing. It's when people didn't


answer directly that they then got a rough time. I think we agree. You


enjoyed it? I did. I had five good years. I hope the purpose of the


book is not just to describe some of the hearings we had, but also to


make suggestion for the future. I hope they will be taken seriously


and debated. Jon, thank you. A new group will launch today


with the aim of winning the support of ethnic minority voters


for the Conservatives. The campaign group, Modern Britain,


aims to replicate grassroots campaigning techniques


being developed in Canada. Ethnic minority voters will play


an increasingly prominent role in future general elections,


with non-white people projected to make up 30%


of the population by 2050. Of the 20 seats the Conservative


Party has the best chance of gaining in 2020, 10 have a proportion


of ethnic-minority voters above 10%. In Ealing Central Acton,


for example, the Conservatives only have to overturn a 0.5% Labour


majority, while 29.9% of the electorate is black,


Asian or mixed. Research by British Influence


in the last general election suggests the Conservatives


have a long way to go to win They found Labour were winning 50%


of the Asian vote It was even more marked among black


voters, Labour winning 67% compared We're joined now by Kulveer Ranger,


he was an adviser to former London mayor, Boris Johnson,


and is now director of Modern Welcome to the Daily Politics. This


isn't the first time, obviously, the Conservatives say they want to


appeal more to ethnic minority voters. Why has it not worked in the


past? It is not the Conservatives saying T I am a Conservative but we


are doing this from outside the party. Sure but it is to attract


ethnic minorities to the Conservative Party. . Momentum for


the Conservative Party. If we were half as successful, you would be


pleased. I think the Conservatives have tried to attract ethnic


minority voters. We have had generational migration in. Like


Windrush. And u began da. Maybe the Conservatives weren't seen as


welcoming, maybe they thought they didn't need those votes, generally


outside the inner cities where the large pockets of immigrants tended


to be based but now we have seen internal migration, due to these


communities doing well, increasing in affluence, but there is still a


cultural bind that holds these communities together. We look at the


black community. Maybe it is around churches, carnival, religion and so


the voting pattern can remain although it is getting softer. That


makes it sound like the Conservative Party has never been interested in


appealing until ethnic minority voters until they realise they need


to if they are going to continue winning elections? I think that's


right. So they don't care about ethnic minority voters, is that what


you are saying? There has been short-term engagement when it comes


to an electoral cycle. We need a long-term understanding to build the


trust, especially nowadays where the vote is becoming more transactional.


People are looking around more and looking at what is happening on the


Labour side and in terms of the referendum, and they want it feel


people are hearing their voice and I think in a diverse, modern Britain


that we have, which is a success in the international world, in terms of


the different cultures that we have, I think the Conservative Party must


take a longer, strategic view of how it listens to these communities. So


is the Conservative Party brand still damaged in the eyes of the


minorities which is what Sajid Javid said - remember Enoch Powell and his


speeches, when he was a Conservative politician. I think there is a


generation that will remember that but there is a lot more now, second,


third, fourth generation, who will not recall Enoch Powell and will not


understand what the Rivers of Blood meant but will think of modern


Conservatism through the eyes of what David Cameron has done, the


engagement he started, his 2020 agenda. See what does that mean?


What wr is the waying of saying that policy development can be informal


from what those communities feel and want to address. The problem for


Labour is taking people for granted. It has lost Scotland and lost a lot


of Labour voters in heartland north. It could do the same for ethnic


minority voters that for whatever reason, tend to vote Labour? I


agree, actually, Jo. I think Labour can the no just assume that people


who traditionally voted Labour will continue to do this. Neither can the


Conservatives, I don't think any political party can work on the


assumption you are tribal. You have to constantly reach out to voters


and ensure you relate to the issues that matter to them and you have to


constantly ensure you are listening to what they say. So, yes, we have


to work to earn every ethnic minority vote that we have


traditionally had and we must learn the lessons of Scotland and not


presume T the only thing I would say to you is - on the whole - Labour


has a good record to what we have done to support ethnic minorities.


My feel would be that the anti-immigration stance that was


there in the Brexit campaign, would not help you encourage immigrant


communities to actually come over to the Conservative Party. I mean, you


have a problem - and I think although you say Cameron was a


different place, I agree. I think actually the Brexiteer who is won in


the Conservative Party, give a bad message it people or out of


immigrant communities. Briefly, do you think now we should be lumping


ethnic minority groups together. I mean they are really very different


and would that not help the general political integration of groups of


people? Yes, I cringe at the word "minority" in some areas it is


diverse communities, and it is not the minority but I think there are


cultural binds that hold them together. I agree that the


referendum vote and the return of the phrase like "go home lackey"


something I hadn't heard since I was a child, is something we need to


tackle this, we have been working a few of us, we have been working on


this for quite a long time now. I have been in the Conservative Party


for 15 years and understand some of the challenges but this is really


looking at the future and following on the engagement agenda.


Now, the Oxford and Cambridge boat race is one of the highlights of the


One of the less well-known highlights - maybe it's just more


of a light - is the annual race along a somewhat shorter stretch


of the Thames between the House of Commons and the House of Lords.


Over there, they are used to sticking their oars in.


Now the Lords and the Commons are about to do it for real,


on the River Thames in the annual parliamentary boat race in aid


of a charity called the International Sports


I thought rowers were meant to be buffer than that.


There's also a hearty doze of nautical humour.


You have to be careful of having a crab.


That's the biggest threat in the race.


When you get your oar in the wrong spot.


Something I'm very passionate about and also it is for a good


While people may think it's frivolous, we do some good as well.


I heard when you fall in on the Thames, you have


I don't know about that but I wouldn't suggest


Right, got my BBC obligatory life jacket, so I can get closer


This event has been happening for ten years now.


The Commons have won five times and the Lords have won four


As the teams cross the starting line at Lambeth Bridge,


Both trying to avoid what happened three years ago,


Now I'm no Clare Balding but it looks like their Lordships aren't


It's a baking hot day here in London but our elective representatives


Does this prove the primacy of the Commons over the Lords?


I don't think it will settle that forever.


But I notice some of the members of the House of Lords


are actually former members of the House of Commons.


Ah, so as soon as the race is over, they are back to rocking


At least they are on dry land again. O


and one of the losing peers, the Liberal Democrat Brian Paddick.


Welcome. At least you won't sink, hopefully on this programme. Can any


of you row? Yes, we can row. We are not as good as some of our


colleagues who may have got a at Oxford but we got over the finish


line without sipging. What happened last time We got caught under the


bridge, the boat was swamped and went over. How do you feel on the


losing side? Galling, to be honest. For the last two years we have won


but one of our novices caught a crab, knocked the other person off


his seat behind him, who ended up in the lap of the one behind. On a


short course, it is very difficult to recover. It is not very long, is


it, the course, when I think back to the races I see in the Thames? We


have to row up to the start line. You are exhausted before you start.


Exactly. You poor things Do you do training? We do. The Lords had an


unfortune event, their boat was swamped on their training. We went


training in Putney. They had to come in two halves to fit on the trailer.


We boat we went inp hadn't been bolted together properly. I was told


it was all right. It got up to seat level and that was the end of that.


I hope you can all swim. Health and safety, with the welcome welcome, it


sounds terrifying. But for a good cause. We raised ?10,000 for three


charities. They are the London Youth Rowing the Matt Hamp son Trust Fund


and the Company of Watermen and Lightmen. How competitive is it? I


think there is a bit of rivalry amongst some of the participants


like me, for example, but the important thing is we have a lot of


fun and we raise a lot of money for charity. Is it difficult to recruit


people to the boat? It is sometimes. And some people who raced yesterday


it was their first time in the boat. First time in? Yes. And were there


eight MPs? Seven. Six actually. They had some ringers. We had eight


genuine Lords in boat Isn't it harder in the Lords to find people


who want to do this? Bearing in mind of background of a lot of


hereditaries and Tories, you find a larger proportion of people who have


rowed before than perhaps in the Commons. Maybe they have the


advantage. What about a women's team or mixed team? I have never heard of


it. I'm really upset. I have a loud voice, I'm short... You could be the


cox. Sign Margaret up, you know. Why isn't it mixed? In previous years we


have had some women. Kelly Tilhurst wanted to race. She injured her arm


so couldn't do it. And we had a blue at Oxford. Everybody went to Oxford


and Cambridge. Oh, they didn't do it at your university, LSC? I had never


rowed before I started this three years ago. I went to the wrong


school, obviously. What about, are you going to do it in the next few


years? Absolutely. Going down to Putney on a weekday morning when the


sun is shining, it is absolutely beautiful and I would really


encourage people to come down and have a go because it really is great


fun. And it was a beautiful day. It was. With the success of the


Olympics as well, rowing is becoming more of an interest sport. Something


else we are trying to promote. As Brian said, the view of the House of


Commons and House of Parliament from the river. Well an expansion of tug


of war and Parliamently dog of the year, and whatever else I have had


to do recently. Just time to reveal -


because we forgot to yesterday - that the answer to


Guess the Year was 1973.


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