Browse content similar to 22/09/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It's been one year since the Government passed a law | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
to ensure "English votes for English laws" at Westminster. | :00:45. | :00:46. | |
But will it make any difference when it comes to big issues | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
There's anger at the treatment of British troops accused of war | :00:50. | :00:56. | |
crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan - but are investigators coming under | :00:57. | :00:59. | |
Following the Brexit vote, there were reports of a rush | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
to a second referendum on Scottish independence. | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
We'll be asking when and if it might happen. | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
It's not the hard left, more the soft left ? yes, | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
you can even bring your teddy to Momentum's new activity | :01:16. | :01:17. | |
We'll be getting the view of children's author Michael Rosen. | :01:18. | :01:31. | |
You could bring your teddy bear, couldn't you? You have more than I | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
have! And with us for the whole | :01:36. | :01:36. | |
of the programme today, He used to be a TV presenter, | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
you know, although he was never as famous as me and JoCo, | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
and that might be why he gave up this life of unstinting | :01:45. | :01:47. | |
sacrifice and public service for all the glamour, | :01:48. | :01:49. | |
fame and riches that I think I've got that | :01:50. | :01:51. | |
the right way round. Welcome to the show, | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
John. First today, the Government has said | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
it is committed to introducing a new law to pardon gay men | :01:59. | :02:05. | |
convicted under historical The legislation has been referred | :02:06. | :02:07. | |
to as the Alan Turing Law, after the World War II code breaker | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
who was pardoned in 2013, decades after he was convicted | :02:12. | :02:14. | |
of gross indecency in 1952. Relatives of Mr Turing, | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
whose work was critical in Allied efforts to read | :02:19. | :02:20. | |
German naval messages, have led a high-profile | :02:21. | :02:24. | |
campaign to secure pardons for the 49,000 other men convicted | :02:25. | :02:27. | |
under those laws. The Government promised to act | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
in last year's election manifesto, and our guest of the day has already | :02:34. | :02:35. | |
introduced a private member's bill to get the Turing Law | :02:36. | :02:38. | |
onto the statute books. Are the proposal from the Government | :02:39. | :02:48. | |
actually going to do what you would like to see in terms of pardoning | :02:49. | :02:54. | |
these 49,000 men? I don't quite know yet. I won the Private members draw, | :02:55. | :03:00. | |
and I decided with Government support that I would introduce the | :03:01. | :03:07. | |
Turing law. The idea is that pardons would be given to all the people | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
found guilty of a crime which is no longer a crime. It was interesting | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
in terms of the politics, because you and Andrew know, I am a new MP, | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
and when I won this, I was invited in to see the Tory whips. You walk | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
down this corridor with posters of great Tory victories on either side, | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
and you are taken into see the deputy Chief Whip. She said, I am | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
keen for this to reach the statute book, if you run with it, there will | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
be no tricks or games from the conservative side. That's | :03:41. | :03:47. | |
reassuring! I felt like a lack -- I was in a scene from House Of Cards. | :03:48. | :03:54. | |
One of the other whips said, you are delightfully naive, Mr Nicolson. | :03:55. | :04:01. | |
Will it get the statute books? I don't know any more than you do | :04:02. | :04:04. | |
about what the Government has said. My bill will be introduced on the | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
21st as a Private members Bill. It is great to forgive all the people | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
who are now dead, but it is kind of sentimental. I am interested in the | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
people who asked alive and who have lived with this for decades. Would | :04:20. | :04:26. | |
that include those people too? Yes, so my bill says that there will be | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
pardons for anyone found guilty, alive or dead, of any crime that is | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
no longer on the statute book. Typically, for example, if you were | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
21 and you had a boyfriend who was 20, you could have been found guilty | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
of having underage sex. We think that is absurd now, but these guys | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
have criminal convictions will stop they lived with that, and it was a | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
great shame for their families. That's right. So I think it is good | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
to pardon those who have died, for the sake of their families, but it | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
is important to pardon those who are still alive. I wonder why it is | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
taking so long. I remember the apology from Gordon Brown in 2009 | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
for what happened to Alan Turing and others, and yet here we are in 2016 | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
and it is not there get. I made a film in 1992 for the BBC called A | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
Question Of Consent, and I took Edwina Currie to Amsterdam to look | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
at a quality in action. It was the first time she became interested. | :05:32. | :05:40. | |
She had James Anderson -- James Anderton, God's copper. I remember | :05:41. | :05:49. | |
him. His job was to come on to gay men in and if they responded, they | :05:50. | :05:56. | |
would be arrested. It would be called entrapment now. I said it was | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
a prurience thing to want to do with police time. He defended it and said | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
it was the right thing to do. People caught by him still have criminal | :06:07. | :06:09. | |
convictions, and I want to give them some peace. Keypads in touch with | :06:10. | :06:18. | |
what happens with the bill. -- keep us. It is time for our daily quiz. | :06:19. | :06:29. | |
The question for today is about an hour-long documentary | :06:30. | :06:31. | |
It was released online yesterday and it was made | :06:32. | :06:34. | |
At the end of the show, John will give us the correct | :06:35. | :06:48. | |
You hope! I think we know who it wasn't! | :06:49. | :07:00. | |
"English votes for English laws" was the mechanism introduced | :07:01. | :07:02. | |
by David Cameron's government to answer concerns about the ability | :07:03. | :07:04. | |
of Scottish MPs to veto legislation that applied only | :07:05. | :07:06. | |
It's known at Westminster by the menacing-sounding acronym | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
Evel, and it's been in place for a year. | :07:11. | :07:13. | |
Theresa May's government says it is going to review the | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
So, what exactly is it, and is it working? | :07:18. | :07:23. | |
Think back two years ago to the morning after the Scottish | :07:24. | :07:26. | |
David Cameron stood on the steps of Downing Street and said | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
new powers for Scotland should be balanced by "English | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
It was an attempt to answer the so-called "West Lothian | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
Question", which concerns Scottish MPs voting on matters that | :07:42. | :07:43. | |
Under rules introduced last October, the Speaker, John Bercow, | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
now decides if each new law applies only to England, | :07:49. | :07:54. | |
A new stage in the law-making process was also created, | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
the Legislative Grand Committee, where only MPs from | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
The changes came into effect in January. | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
So far, the Speaker has certified 11 bills under what is known as Evel, | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
including on housing and policing and crime. | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
And there have been 14 divisions on other pieces of legislation | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
in which only English or English and Welsh | :08:22. | :08:23. | |
But the controversy hasn't gone away. | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
The Government was forced to shelve a vote last summer on relaxing | :08:30. | :08:31. | |
the fox-hunting ban in England and Wales, | :08:32. | :08:33. | |
after the Scottish National Party pledged to vote | :08:34. | :08:35. | |
Now, there are suggestions the SNP could attempt to block | :08:36. | :08:41. | |
Theresa May's plans for grammar schools in England. | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
And the Government is now carrying out a review of the process. | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
Leader of the Commons David Lidington told MPs the details | :08:50. | :08:51. | |
Well, to discuss this, we're joined by the Conservative MP | :08:52. | :08:59. | |
Chris Philp, and of course, John Nicolson is still here. | :09:00. | :09:06. | |
Chris, is it working? It is a good start in the sense that it means | :09:07. | :09:13. | |
that for the first time English MPs have effectively a veto over | :09:14. | :09:16. | |
measures that only affect England, which did not exist before, and it | :09:17. | :09:24. | |
is a small step to stop the unfairness whereby Scottish MPs can | :09:25. | :09:27. | |
vote on matters that affect only England but England's's MPs don't | :09:28. | :09:33. | |
have the reciprocal right. When you say a beta, what do you mean? I | :09:34. | :09:36. | |
thought the purpose was not a veto but -- veto. It is still subject to | :09:37. | :09:49. | |
a vote by the whole house. Even if English members vote for something, | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
it could still be voted down by the house as a health. It has not | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
happened so far, but it is a power of veto, not to positively | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
legislate. The ban on fox hunting, which was only for England and | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
Wales, the Government withdrew that when the SNP said they would vote | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
against it. Is that not a huge hole in the middle of what you're trying | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
to do? In that situation, if the whole house could vote against it, | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
it would not progress. Nicola Sturgeon said clearly in February 20 | :10:20. | :10:26. | |
oh that's right 2015, the SNP members would not be voting on | :10:27. | :10:33. | |
England only matters. Come July 2015, just a few months later, she | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
did a U-turn and decided that fox hunting in England was of such | :10:39. | :10:41. | |
critical importance in Scotland that they would vote on it after all, | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
which I thought was shamelessly opportunistic. What was the logic of | :10:46. | :10:51. | |
the SNP voting on it? Did you worry that you would be inundated with | :10:52. | :10:54. | |
leaking Fox's? PHONE RINGS | :10:55. | :10:57. | |
I was inundated with Tory MPs asking us to vote on that, actually. A lot | :10:58. | :11:06. | |
of people don't realise how many Conservative -- I was inundated with | :11:07. | :11:13. | |
Tory MPs. People don't realise how many Conservative MPs were against | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
it. She did change her mind, Nicola Sturgeon, which I think politicians | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
are allowed to do. My view was, I am strongly against blood sports, and I | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
thought we were right to vote on it. Although you mention Fox's crossing | :11:27. | :11:33. | |
the border in jest, the hunt do not respect the border. There used to be | :11:34. | :11:42. | |
a rule which was broadly adhered to by the Scottish Nationalists that | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
you didn't vote on what you would regard as England only matters. That | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
seems to have gone by the wayside. What is the rule now? Since I have | :11:52. | :11:59. | |
been in the House of Commons, the issue as always been whether or not | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
it has a knock-on financial effect, with the exception of the fox | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
hunting one which you raise. I say to you why we said we would vote on | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
that. You could not have carried the Tory backbenches on it anyway, in | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
errant irony. A Barnett consequential would be the thing we | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
would vote on. If it comes to the House, will you vote on Theresa | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
May's plans on grammar schools for England? We don't know yet. It will | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
depend on whether there are financial implications or not. | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
Whether it is done on the existing education budget or a bit more is | :12:39. | :12:41. | |
added to the budget to greatly schools, which of course you would | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
get benefit from, even though you want be introducing grammar schools? | :12:46. | :12:52. | |
Where would the negative consequential be? I will have to see | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
the detail, which I don't yet know. You are kind of making it up as you | :12:58. | :13:04. | |
go along. No, really. The financial implications are key. Can you point | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
me to other examples where the SNP has intervened? It is not in our | :13:09. | :13:16. | |
voting record in the last year. Sunday trading was something you | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
were accused of turning into an opportunistic example of voting on | :13:21. | :13:23. | |
something that would not affect you directly. It did not go beyond | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
preliminary discussions. There was a vote on it, and the SNP voted | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
against the Government's motion. As a result, Sunday trading laws in | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
Croydon had been affected by your vote. I can't vote on Sunday trading | :13:38. | :13:44. | |
in your constituency, so it is not fair. Barnett consequential are made | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
up as a tiny figleaf to excuse basically troublemaking. I like it | :13:49. | :13:55. | |
that if we don't help you get your legislation through we are | :13:56. | :13:58. | |
troublemakers. You can't carry your backbenches. They are hostile. That | :13:59. | :14:06. | |
is his problem. It is his problem. You are not there to help the Tory | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
party, so why are you making the point? Because he is talking as if | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
the Tory party is united on these issues and it is only a bunch of | :14:16. | :14:18. | |
troublemakers in the air sent P Hu... There could be an issue. -- in | :14:19. | :14:29. | |
the SNP who... Do you agree that if a vote on grammar schools comes | :14:30. | :14:35. | |
before the Commons and it is clearly an English only matter, if the | :14:36. | :14:38. | |
Scottish Nationalists are able to vote under the EVEL rules, there is | :14:39. | :14:45. | |
a coach and horses through EVEL that makes it relevant? It was only ever | :14:46. | :14:52. | |
a veto, but it would expose the weakness you are talking about. It | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
would mean that English MPs alone cannot get something through. It | :14:57. | :14:59. | |
would be good to strengthen the reform not to make it just a power | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
of veto but a power of legislation as well, where the Scots did not | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
have a veto. On fox hunting, I may well have voted against it, as you | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
did or would have done. That is not the point. The point is that it is | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
not fair for Scottish MPs to vote on matters that do not affect them at | :15:19. | :15:20. | |
all. Can I just clarify - is it your | :15:21. | :15:30. | |
desire to toughen this up? Well, I think there is a case for looking at | :15:31. | :15:38. | |
that. If the SNP show... Governments are always tinkering. But I think if | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
the SNP respect the spirit of what is intended and leave the grammar | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
school legislation and similar things alone, then I think we could | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
say the system is working. If on the other hand they abuse the current | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
arrangements, and I would put it as strongly as abuse, then we need to | :15:56. | :16:03. | |
look at it. I'm not sure what that means you should do! Because this is | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
very complicated, this business. I think it was William Hague, of | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
course, he's not there any more, but he put it together. If this is the | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
way you want to go roster whether that's right is another matter - but | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
if it was the way you wanted to go, what would be wrong with the Speaker | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
designating a bill as England only, and you simply say, Scottish MPs | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
cannot vote on that matter? That's effectively what I'm suggesting we | :16:31. | :16:34. | |
would need to look at if they, as it were, misbehave and abuse the | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
current system. The danger is that you start creating an English | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
Parliament by the back door. You need to think carefully before you | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
tinker with the constitution. Scotland has got a parliament, Wales | :16:50. | :16:52. | |
has got a parliament. We're all being moved out of the crumbling | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
House of Commons. It's the perfect time for you to set up an endless | :16:57. | :16:59. | |
Parliament and resolve this issue. And place it in the north of | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
England? Which would be even more fabulous. Some would say we have got | :17:04. | :17:10. | |
enough Parliaments already. You're creating more lords, you will have | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
more lords than MPs. Cut them. Whether Scotland ends up independent | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
or not, the whole trend of British constitutional policy is for further | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
devolution - devolution to Scotland, more powers for Wales and Northern | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
Ireland and devolution to some extent, although more | :17:29. | :17:31. | |
administrative, within England itself, in Manchester and all the | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
rest of it. If that's the direction of travel, which it seems clear it | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
has been since before Mr Blair, would it not make sense to look at | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
an English Parliament? As I say, I think you mess around with the | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
constitution with caution. These are complicated, long-standing | :17:52. | :17:53. | |
traditions. We have enough politicians already, local councils, | :17:54. | :17:56. | |
county councils, a huge number already. The reason the SNP are keen | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
to see an English parliament is because they think it will pick the | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
ties... I don't think you're giving me friendly advice, I think you're | :18:06. | :18:08. | |
trying to unpick the ties. Anyway, we've run out of time! I'm just | :18:09. | :18:17. | |
saying it's a good idea. We will come back to Evel, however you | :18:18. | :18:20. | |
pronounce it. Evel sounds less sinister! And anyway, you don't | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
spell evil like that! Theresa May has been under pressure! You might | :18:26. | :18:33. | |
pronounce it like that! She has been to a grammar school, hasn't she? No, | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
actually! Theresa May has been under | :18:39. | :18:41. | |
pressure this week to scrap the Iraq Historic Allegations Team, | :18:42. | :18:43. | |
which is handling some 1,500 allegations of murder, | :18:44. | :18:46. | |
abuse and torture carried out by British soldiers | :18:47. | :18:48. | |
during the conflict in Iraq. This morning's Daily Telegraph | :18:49. | :18:50. | |
reports that a further 550 historic allegations of crimes committed | :18:51. | :18:52. | |
by British troops in Afghanistan are also under investigation, | :18:53. | :18:54. | |
leading to claims from senior political and military figures that | :18:55. | :18:56. | |
many of the allegations The prime minister was asked | :18:57. | :18:58. | |
about the claims on her trip to the United Nations this | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
week, and she said... "We should all be proud | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
of our armed forces." We can be proud of the disciplined | :19:07. | :19:08. | |
way in which our armed Ihat, the Iraq Historic Allegations | :19:09. | :19:27. | |
Team, will be able to focus on cases where there may be | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
questions of allegations." Well, we're joined | :19:32. | :19:34. | |
now by Tim Collins. He led the 1st Batallion Irish | :19:35. | :19:37. | |
Regiment in Iraq, and he has said that many of the allegations are | :19:38. | :19:43. | |
being made by "parasitic lawyers". Welcome to the programme - how do | :19:44. | :19:53. | |
you distinguish between a legitimate and vexatious claim? Well, I think | :19:54. | :19:56. | |
that throughout the conflict, not just in Iraq but in Afghanistan as | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
well, and remember we also have large caseload of investigations | :20:02. | :20:04. | |
from Northern Ireland, is Russian forces operations there. And I think | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
certainly looking at Iraq, the military police on the ground have | :20:10. | :20:15. | |
already investigated these things. But if someone saw an opportunity to | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
make a fast buck, and that was facilitated by government, and now | :20:21. | :20:23. | |
it has become a runaway train. When you look at the depth and the | :20:24. | :20:26. | |
complicity of the lies that we are told in these enquiries, you have to | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
say, enough. At it is difficult to distinguish between the two - you | :20:32. | :20:37. | |
don't I presume want to shop down the jet claims of abuse and torture | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
as per international treaties wanted it is a bit like, do you keep | :20:42. | :20:44. | |
looking at these things until you get the answer you want, like the | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
referendum? You have described it as an industry. It is an industry. And | :20:49. | :20:54. | |
in terms of the numbers cases reported today, 550 - is that what | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
makes it an industry as well as the money that's involved? Well, I think | :20:59. | :21:04. | |
again, it's a runaway train. There is 550 cases, 157 complaints, ?7.5 | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
million has been put into its. There's 124 MPs investigating it. So | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
far they have dismissed 16 cases and there has not been a single case of | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
wrongdoing found. But would it be right not to look at them at all? If | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
you're saying this is an industry... They're look that at a certain | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
level. The bottom line is, and I think it reaches a wider spectrum, | :21:30. | :21:36. | |
that this industry depends on applying the rule which applies on | :21:37. | :21:38. | |
the street here in London to the battlefield elsewhere. If that's | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
what we want, then we should not be deploying troops. And furthermore, I | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
think it is now got to a point where we are about to see the worm | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
turning. Think there is going to be military people bringing cases | :21:52. | :21:54. | |
against the Government for harassment, and then it is going to | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
turn into an awful dogfight. The problem is, the leadership of the | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
military have so lost confidence of the rank and file, it might even be | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
time that we need a union in the military to start dealing with this, | :22:07. | :22:09. | |
because that's what would happen in industry. If we're going to apply | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
industry standards, then we've got to apply unions. If you don't want, | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
as you say, the laws of the street, what levels of law being applied to | :22:18. | :22:21. | |
troops should be there? Well, what we've done for the last couple of | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
hundred years, we have military law. It's what we did in the Second World | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
War, it's what we did in Korea. We've moved the goalposts and | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
discovered why we shouldn't have moved the goalposts - it's time to | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
move them back. What would your response be? The law society has | :22:38. | :22:39. | |
responded, saying that everybody needs protection. And some of these | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
cases are being put forward by the most vulnerable. And there have been | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
cases of alleged torture and abuse by British troops which need to be | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
investigated, and they've got a point? They do have a point, because | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
Tim also has a point - we have a duty of care to these soldiers, | :22:59. | :23:01. | |
these very young soldiers. Many of them are going from the UK, they | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
have never been abroad, and suddenly they are expected to switch roles, | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
aren't they, from being warriors to be in police, in very different | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
circumstances? Tim knows better than anybody else how difficult it is to | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
tell these young soldiers that although they've been fighting an | :23:19. | :23:25. | |
enemy, under all circumstances they've got to treat the enemy with | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
respect. I think it's very important for us to remain there that we have | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
a duty of care to these soldiers. Of course we must absolutely respect | :23:35. | :23:39. | |
the law. Equally, we must run with a terrible strain the soldiers have | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
been under. But that is the onus on the military, to train the armed | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
forces so that they understand that, as well as to protect them from any | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
miscarriage of justice which might be thrown their way? There not being | :23:52. | :23:54. | |
protected from miscarriage of justice. Is that because the | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
military isn't doing it? The military commanders are so | :23:59. | :24:00. | |
frightened of the lawyers. Of course the lawyers are the ones who will | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
gain from this. Of course the law society want that in their pocket. | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
The bottom line is, it's easier for a commander now to take a risk with | :24:09. | :24:15. | |
a soldier called life, and lose a soldier dead, that can be explained. | :24:16. | :24:18. | |
But if you take the opportunity to protect your men and you do the | :24:19. | :24:20. | |
wrong thing, you will go to court. That can't be right. The balance has | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
tipped, according to Tim Collins, so how do you redress it? There have | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
been much publicised cases people dying in military custody, one of | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
them many years ago, back in 2003, and a public inquiry said it was an | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
episode of serious, gratuitous violence. It's important to | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
remember, it's not the law versus the army. I've interviewed many, | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
many soldiers, and decent, honourable soldiers are not | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
supporting the bad apples. Where there have been cases of abuse or | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
illegality, soldiers want these to be rooted out. Soldiers want these | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
people to be prosecuted. Or accusations of cover-ups? Soldiers | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
do not want there to be a cover-up. When they behave honourably, they | :25:04. | :25:06. | |
want to be defended by their commander, and where there are bad | :25:07. | :25:09. | |
apples, they want them to be uncovered. You make a very valid | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
point. These people are not turning up at a police station in Iraq or | :25:15. | :25:17. | |
Afghanistan to complain. These allegations are all being made by | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
someone from within the military, to say they saw something, and that's | :25:22. | :25:24. | |
when the vultures come in to start picking at the corpse. I take your | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
point that people in the military are more frightened of the lawyers | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
than they would be, perhaps. Whistle-blowers, reporting these | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
things. But the point is, the chap we were talking about was a | :25:41. | :25:44. | |
notorious bomb maker. He is looking for compensation from our courts, a | :25:45. | :25:47. | |
reward for killing soldiers. Are we going to give him that? Yes, we | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
probably are. In terms of the amount of money that's been spent, six will | :25:53. | :25:55. | |
say, it's costing millions in the context of a war which is costing | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
billions is that not a small price to pay to make sure human rights and | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
international law is upheld. In my house, I tell my children to turn | :26:05. | :26:07. | |
the lights off to stop wasting money. I don't care if it's one like | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
or every light in the house. You don't leave the tap running, this is | :26:13. | :26:15. | |
public money, it can't be wasted. What do you think should happen, | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
then? How do you stop this industry spreading? It's a very difficult | :26:20. | :26:25. | |
question. We've seen a huge rise in ambulance chasers in the last 25 in | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
30 years, it was not something that I remember from years before. I | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
think Tim is fundamentally right. I think soldiers have got to feel with | :26:35. | :26:37. | |
certainty that when they go to their commanding officer, they will be | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
taken seriously. If they whistle-blower, they will be | :26:43. | :26:44. | |
defended, it will not be considered dishonourable. The military has got | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
to protect its own, and the legal system also has got to protect | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
soldiers and also, where necessary, victims. Thank you. | :26:56. | :26:57. | |
Now, leaked documents published today show that | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
new Home Secretary Amber Rudd used to be a director of two offshore | :27:02. | :27:04. | |
There is no suggestion of wrongdoing by Mrs Rudd, but her critics say | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
the revelations are embarrassing for the Government, which has | :27:10. | :27:11. | |
prioritised cracking down on tax havens. | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
A spokesperson for the home secretary told the Guardian that it | :27:17. | :27:21. | |
is a matter of public record that Amber had a career in this area | :27:22. | :27:23. | |
before joining politics. Joining us now is Molly Scott Cato | :27:24. | :27:25. | |
MEP for South-West England, and a member of the European | :27:26. | :27:28. | |
Parliament's inquiry committee Molly Scott Cato, what has Amber | :27:29. | :27:44. | |
Rudd Dunne? We have heard that she was a director of two of these | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
companies, notorious tax havens. So what we're calling for a day is for | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
Amber Rudd to come and make a much fuller statement, probably a | :27:53. | :27:55. | |
statement which include details of what the directorships was about and | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
how much money she made from them. The suspicion is, when people set up | :28:00. | :28:02. | |
a company in the Bahamas, they're not doing it because... They are | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
doing it because it is at the heart of a nexus of tax avoidance and it | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
is totally inappropriate for a government minister to be involved | :28:11. | :28:13. | |
in something like that. Do you have evidence that Amber Road was | :28:14. | :28:17. | |
involved in tax avoidance or tax evasion through these directorships? | :28:18. | :28:19. | |
These are the questions that need to be answered. Do you have evidence? | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
We have evidence that she was eye rector of two asset management | :28:25. | :28:27. | |
companies. That in itself is not illegal but it does not smell right, | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
when Theresa May came into power, she said you wanted to work for the | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
many, not the few. She was going to clean up capitalism and so on. I | :28:36. | :28:38. | |
think she needs to be asking Amber Rudd questions and we need more | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
information in the public domain. You have said that it is difficult | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
to see how the Prime Minister can continue to have confidence in Amber | :28:47. | :28:49. | |
Rudd, but you can give us no examples this morning of any | :28:50. | :28:52. | |
illegality or any dodgy tax work by Amber Rudd, so why? What evidence do | :28:53. | :29:00. | |
you have? Is this just an attempt to get some publicity? What evidence to | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
you have that she has done anything wrong? An awful lot of this is about | :29:06. | :29:10. | |
appearance, and the appearance here is all wrong. The companies were | :29:11. | :29:13. | |
based in the Bahamas. There's reasons for that... It was 1998! | :29:14. | :29:19. | |
That's right. It is historic evidence. And the law on tax | :29:20. | :29:24. | |
avoidance was totally different from what it is now! It comes together to | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
bring a picture of a government which is not living up to the | :29:30. | :29:32. | |
standards it set itself. If Amber Rudd can come forward and defend | :29:33. | :29:36. | |
these allegations, let her do that. This government says it is focused | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
on tax transparency, and ending tax avoidance, but we have someone who | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
came forward to doom defend David Cameron where his name cropped up in | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
these allegations, but she did not say anything about herself at that | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
time. So because somebody was a director of a company for two years | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
over 16 years ago, that makes them unfit to be a government minister, | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
even though you can bring no sense of illegality or wrongdoing to this | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
argument? You may think that's fine, Theresa May may think it's fine, but | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
I can tell you, the people I represent are scandalised that this | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
sort of behaviour goes on, whether it's rich companies all rich | :30:16. | :30:21. | |
individuals avoiding tax. But do you have any evidence that she actually | :30:22. | :30:24. | |
earned any money from these two offshore funds for two years? | :30:25. | :30:31. | |
That is what protects people, secrecy. She was encouraging | :30:32. | :30:39. | |
transparency. Should you not have encouraged her to come forward | :30:40. | :30:41. | |
before you deigned to call for the Prime Minister to get rid of her? | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
The fact she has been the director of two companies in the Bahamas is | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
bad enough, because it has the wrong type of tone. That this qualifies | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
even though it was 16 years ago and there was no issue of illegality? It | :30:56. | :31:01. | |
is a question for Theresa May to answer. I am asking you because you | :31:02. | :31:07. | |
brought it up. It is important to be critical of Government and allow | :31:08. | :31:10. | |
them to account their past behaviour as well as their present behaviour. | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
I am not impressed by a senior member of the Government profiting | :31:15. | :31:20. | |
from activity in a tax haven. So if we find that any Green party member | :31:21. | :31:25. | |
has had an ass -- an historic connection with offshore tax havens, | :31:26. | :31:35. | |
going back 15, 20 years, they would have to leave the Government or the | :31:36. | :31:43. | |
party? Surely the attitude is the same. If it is wrong to do it if | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
you're a Government minister, it must be wrong if you are Ray Green | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
activist campaigning against tax avoidance. Of course it is wrong. | :31:52. | :31:59. | |
Amber Rudd is supposed to be upholding high standards of this | :32:00. | :32:02. | |
new, clean form of capitalism that works for us all, and her past | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
business record does not live up to it. She has called for reforms on | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
the offshore system now. She says it is important and as you will know, | :32:11. | :32:16. | |
since 2000, there have been huge changes to make tax havens more | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
transparent. There are OECD agreements, EU agreements. You are | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
on the committee, so you must know. She herself has said it is time that | :32:26. | :32:31. | |
we put 25 new measures in place by 2021 to get transparency on tax | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
matters. What is your problem? The words sound good, but current and | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
past actions don't live up to them. Can you let me get to the end of | :32:42. | :32:50. | |
one... The Government has taken the lead on OECD recommendations. That | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
is action. The recommendations don't go far enough. We need full | :32:56. | :32:58. | |
information to come out, and we still have tax havens where the | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
information is being concealed, and there are still close relationships | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
between those havens and the City of London. That is what does not smell | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
right from a Government that says it will set itself higher standards. If | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
you discover that a Green party donor has had legitimate and legal | :33:16. | :33:22. | |
directorship of an offshore company an attack saving, will you hand the | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
money back? If it were down to me, I would. It is not legitimate to | :33:28. | :33:34. | |
accept money who it -- money from people who have been involved in tax | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
havens. Even if it were 20 years ago? We all, in public life, need to | :33:40. | :33:48. | |
live up to the higher standards and we need to expect the highest | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
standards from donors. This is the Home Secretary, someone who sets the | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
tone. She has nothing to do with tax policy. She is one of the key | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
ministers in Government. I do think it is good enough. Let's hear from | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
her and let the public decide. You have already made up your mind. The | :34:06. | :34:11. | |
public are not happy with people with that level of responsibility | :34:12. | :34:16. | |
acting in any way that smacks of tax avoidance. There is a great deal of | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
unhappiness out there on this issue. Thank you for joining us. | :34:21. | :34:23. | |
Now, there's still plenty of speculation in Scotland | :34:24. | :34:25. | |
if and when Nicola Sturgeon might call for a second | :34:26. | :34:28. | |
Immediately after the Brexit vote, the First Minister said a second | :34:29. | :34:31. | |
referendum was "highly likely", but with the polls not showing | :34:32. | :34:34. | |
clear public support, in recent days it's been suggested | :34:35. | :34:36. | |
that the SNP has put another vote on the back burner. | :34:37. | :34:38. | |
Well, we're joined now by our Scotland Editor, Sarah Smith. | :34:39. | :34:41. | |
Nice to see you again. What do the polls say at the moment on Scottish | :34:42. | :34:57. | |
independence? If Nicola Sturgeon was relying on a Brexit bounce to in | :34:58. | :35:04. | |
increase support for independence, she will be disappointed. There was | :35:05. | :35:10. | |
a poll showing support independence over 50% just after the Brexit vote. | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
The most recent poll was published on Sunday, to coincide with the | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
second anniversary of the independence referendum, and it | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
showed support at 48% of top it is not easy for the First Minister to | :35:24. | :35:25. | |
make a decision because she has previously said she would not want | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
to call another referendum unless there was sustained support at | :35:31. | :35:33. | |
around the 60% mark. We know that polls are not always entirely | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
accurate, but if it is polling below 50%, it is hard to see how she could | :35:38. | :35:43. | |
call another vote. What is the policy at the moment? Is it to have | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
another referendum as soon as possible, or to wait until the | :35:48. | :35:52. | |
Brexit deal is done, and we all then know the terms of the divorce, and | :35:53. | :35:59. | |
then have the referendum? Is there any clarity on the timetable for the | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
principles that could govern a second referendum? There is a debate | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
going on within the party about that. Senior SNP figures are keen to | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
go for a vote soon, some of them. They are talking about 2018. The | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
reasoning would be that if Scotland votes were independence before the | :36:17. | :36:22. | |
UK exits the EU, Benny Howell that maybe Scotland could be a continuing | :36:23. | :36:25. | |
member and never leave the EU. There are others who think that would be | :36:26. | :36:33. | |
too soon. -- then they hope that maybe Scotland. There are people who | :36:34. | :36:39. | |
think that maybe if the Conservatives were to win another | :36:40. | :36:44. | |
general election in 2020, and the Tories still have only one MP in | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
Scotland at the moment, that that would look like more of a democratic | :36:49. | :36:56. | |
deficit and would show that the rest of the UK and Scotland are going in | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
different political directions, and that might be a better Rodman for | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
independence. Sarah Smith, in a sunny and beautiful looking Glass | :37:06. | :37:11. | |
School. It was always thus! You and I know that is not true! | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
We are now joined by former Scottish Secretary Michael Forsyth, | :37:15. | :37:17. | |
and the SNP's John Nicolson is still here. | :37:18. | :37:19. | |
John Nicolson, what is your view? When do you think there should be, | :37:20. | :37:25. | |
if you think there should be a second referendum? I believe in | :37:26. | :37:33. | |
independence so I think there should be. Sarah's analysis is spot on. | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
There are a lot of new members who have joined the party, over 100,000 | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
members, and a lot of these people have come across from the Labour | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
Party in particular and they are desperate to see a referendum as | :37:47. | :37:50. | |
soon as possible. When would you like to see it? We are in a bit of a | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
phoney war at the moment, because we voted for Brexit but we don't know | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
the deal that is on the table. Sarah is right - the polls still show less | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
than 50% of people supporting independence. So you don't want one | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
now? You don't want to hold a referendum until you think you're | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
going to win it. People. To focus on what Brexit actually means, and I | :38:15. | :38:17. | |
don't think the Prime Minister can keep up this line she uses, which | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
is, we are not prepared to give a running commentary on the | :38:23. | :38:25. | |
negotiations. People south and north of the border are going to want to | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
know what the deal is. I understand that, but I know that your party has | :38:30. | :38:35. | |
several views on this. I'm trying to determine yours. OK. Should you have | :38:36. | :38:41. | |
a referendum during the Brexit negotiations, or should you wait | :38:42. | :38:44. | |
until you know the shape of the deal and then call a referendum? On | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
balance, I think we should know the shape of the deal so that people | :38:50. | :38:52. | |
know of what they are broadly conform. -- voting for. That would | :38:53. | :39:01. | |
be the fairest thing, so that the question they are being asked is put | :39:02. | :39:05. | |
with the most information possible on the table. So not before another | :39:06. | :39:12. | |
two years at least? That is my view. Michael Forsyth, is it not | :39:13. | :39:22. | |
inevitable, since Scotland voted to remain in the EU, that this Scottish | :39:23. | :39:26. | |
independence business is back on the agenda? I don't think so at all. If | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
the SNP want to hold another referendum, they should fight an | :39:32. | :39:34. | |
election with a manifesto that makes that clear. Their manifesto actually | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
said, we believe that the Scottish parliament should have the right to | :39:39. | :39:41. | |
hold another referendum if it's clear that more than half the people | :39:42. | :39:46. | |
in Scotland want independence. We have Alex Salmond saying something | :39:47. | :39:49. | |
different from Nicola Sturgeon. And the most striking thing is the | :39:50. | :39:55. | |
contempt that the SNP show for the clear decision, 55% of the Scottish | :39:56. | :40:01. | |
people voted to remain part of the UK. In their manifesto, they said, | :40:02. | :40:07. | |
in 2014, we held a referendum that got people across the country | :40:08. | :40:10. | |
talking about what kind of nation we want to be and how we want to be | :40:11. | :40:15. | |
governed. No, we didn't. We took a clear decision which Alex Salmond | :40:16. | :40:20. | |
holders was a once in a generation chance. They are damaging Scotland, | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
creating uncertainty and reinforcing the view that you can't believe | :40:25. | :40:30. | |
anything politicians tell you. What politicians, Unionist politicians, | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
told the Scottish people was that the only sure way of remaining | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
inside the EU, which was the settled will of Scotland, was to vote for | :40:40. | :40:46. | |
the union. An independent Scotland could not be guaranteed to be inside | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
the EU, and now that sure way has turned out to be a sure way to the | :40:52. | :40:58. | |
door. Because of a decision made by the British people. I have to say, | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
the only argument I can think of in favour of independence that would | :41:04. | :41:06. | |
have been the vote for it was as a way of getting out of the EU. As | :41:07. | :41:13. | |
with many of your views, that is a minority view in Scotland. Indeed, | :41:14. | :41:21. | |
it is. When you say it is a minority view in Scotland, it is a properly | :41:22. | :41:24. | |
held view among Scottish Nationalist. If you look at Dundee, | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
the most nationalist town in Scotland, 40% of the people there | :41:30. | :41:32. | |
voted to leave the EU, because there are a lot of people who believe that | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
Scotland should have more control of their own affairs and realise that | :41:37. | :41:41. | |
staying part of the EU is a contradiction. John Nicolson, if you | :41:42. | :41:47. | |
were to have this referendum, so the Brexit deal is done, and Britain is | :41:48. | :41:51. | |
on the way out, and we know the terms that we are out on, I've guess | :41:52. | :42:00. | |
we're talking about 2019 -- I guess. Could you go to the Scottish people | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
and guarantee that if Scotland voted to leave the UK, it would | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
automatically be a member of the EU? We don't know that yet. | :42:10. | :42:16. | |
Certainly,... You could end up being out of both? Michael Forsyth is | :42:17. | :42:22. | |
laughing. It takes some hot spot for a Tory politician -- it takes some | :42:23. | :42:31. | |
nerve for a Tory politician to laugh when they promised it was how to | :42:32. | :42:38. | |
stay in the EU. But you could be -- you could be out of the UK and out | :42:39. | :42:46. | |
of the EU. People know that the UK as a whole is leaving. There is a | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
lot to be said for rewarding Scotland for being good Europeans | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
and for allowing Scotland to continue to be Europeans. The | :42:57. | :43:03. | |
European Union is then -- is in the business of expanding, as Euro | :43:04. | :43:09. | |
sceptics point out. And the expansion for new members includes | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
taking the euro, and it includes becoming part of the Schengen area. | :43:14. | :43:18. | |
In an independent Scotland, if it were to be part of Schengen, there | :43:19. | :43:22. | |
would have to be border controls at Carlisle and Berwick. It is | :43:23. | :43:25. | |
uncharted territory. INAUDIBLE | :43:26. | :43:32. | |
It is. In Northern Ireland, -- it is. In Northern Ireland, they are | :43:33. | :43:36. | |
having a debate about open borders. The Government has made it clear to | :43:37. | :43:39. | |
Irish politicians that there would not be a hard border. Because we're | :43:40. | :43:46. | |
not a member of Schengen, but you might have to accept Schengen | :43:47. | :43:49. | |
membership in order to be part of the EU. You rightly say that a lot | :43:50. | :44:02. | |
of these issues are upper negotiation. It is early days. It | :44:03. | :44:08. | |
would be a huge gamble, would it not, for Scotland to vote to leave | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
the United Kingdom, particularly given the economic sub oil these | :44:14. | :44:17. | |
days, without being sure that you would be able to join the European | :44:18. | :44:22. | |
Union, and again, to tell the Scottish people, because this was | :44:23. | :44:25. | |
one of the reasons you've lost last time - what will be the currency? | :44:26. | :44:31. | |
You're right, we have to be rock-solid on the economy this time. | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
We have to build a case. I'm glad Michael is having a good time. Some | :44:36. | :44:42. | |
snorting down the line! I remember he said when we sent the Stone of | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
destiny back to Scotland we would settle all this. He made a film for | :44:48. | :44:57. | |
Newsnight. I'm trying to tell an amusing anecdote! You are right that | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
the case on the economy has to be rock-solid, which is why Andrew | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
Wilson is heading up a commission to answer these questions. Michael | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
Forsyth, to some extent, as a staunch Unionist, have you not | :45:12. | :45:18. | |
already lost the argument in that there is no question that Scotland | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
and England are going their separate ways? They may stay within the | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
United Kingdom, which is a different matter, but they are becoming very | :45:27. | :45:29. | |
different countries, very different in many ways from the time when you | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
were Secretary of State for Scotland. And even your own party, | :45:35. | :45:41. | |
Ruth Davidson is styling herself as an independently minded, Scottish | :45:42. | :45:47. | |
Conservative. Michael Forsyth, that was to you. | :45:48. | :45:54. | |
Yes, of course, that is an inevitable consequence of | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
devolution, which was one of the reasons why I opposed it back in | :45:59. | :46:05. | |
1996. You actually said there was no demand for it, I remember. I | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
interviewed you and you told me there was no demand for it from the | :46:10. | :46:14. | |
Scottish people. And unlike you guys, we had a referendum and I | :46:15. | :46:18. | |
accept the results of democratically held referenda. And so we have got a | :46:19. | :46:23. | |
Scottish Carmont, which has got more powers. And that has changed the | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
position. And of course, we're going to have to look at how that affects | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
other parts of the United Kingdom. And people are looking at having a | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
more federal kind of structure, which will maintain stability. But | :46:37. | :46:39. | |
what worries me is that all this chatter about having independence in | :46:40. | :46:47. | |
Scotland, when there is a deficit of some ?15 billion, is hugely damaging | :46:48. | :46:54. | |
to Scotland's investment, in an area where business is not going to | :46:55. | :47:02. | |
invest. We need to end it there. But I'm sure the argument is clearly not | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
going away, so we will be able to come back to it in the weeks and | :47:07. | :47:10. | |
months and probably years ahead. Your loving it! Carry on! When a | :47:11. | :47:23. | |
political party is not exactly doing brilliantly nationally, it is not | :47:24. | :47:27. | |
unusual for them to say, look how we are doing in the regional elections. | :47:28. | :47:30. | |
The Liberal Democrats made the claim at their conference this week. So we | :47:31. | :47:34. | |
thought we would see if there is any truth to it. | :47:35. | :47:48. | |
It sounds like the football scores I'm doing here! To work out what all | :47:49. | :48:18. | |
of that means, we're joined by the man who is lucky enough to follow | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
this sort of thing for a living - and thank goodness somebody is, it's | :48:23. | :48:26. | |
Tony Travers! Is it correct, then, to say that Liberal Democrats are | :48:27. | :48:29. | |
doing well, albeit at local council by-election level? Well, they're not | :48:30. | :48:34. | |
doing that well in the opinion polls, but they are, as you have | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
just shown, doing surprisingly well, certainly surprisingly compared with | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
the 2015 general election debacle, at the local level. Not in every | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
seat but in a number of seats and particularly against Labour, it must | :48:48. | :48:52. | |
be said, they are getting swings of 10%, 20%, even 30% from one party to | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
the other. So I think they can realistically say, although these | :48:58. | :49:00. | |
are straws in the wind, but there are some straws. So is that the | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
basis for any sort of Liberal Democrat fightback? Well, it's the | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
basis of the basis. If we remember the history of the Liberal Democrats | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
- after the decline of the old Liberal Party and the period in the | :49:13. | :49:17. | |
1950s and 1960s when they're used to be jokes about the Liberals' party | :49:18. | :49:21. | |
conference, being able to fit in a phone box, then we moved onto the | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
building of the Liberals, then the social and Liberal Democrats, and | :49:27. | :49:35. | |
then the current party, as a new force in the middle of politics. | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
They did that by building up local areas first, so-called pavement | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
politics, getting new members, going out and knocking on doors, getting | :49:44. | :49:47. | |
people interested, building up in local areas, winning councils and | :49:48. | :49:50. | |
then hoping to win an MP in Parliament. It took 30 or 40 years, | :49:51. | :49:55. | |
that was the trouble. As you say, it could be a long journey back for the | :49:56. | :49:59. | |
Liberal Democrats locally, never mind nationally. But should Labour | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
particularly be worried? Some of the examples which we have been talking | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
about say it is Labour that they are taking some of these by-elections | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
from, and in safe Labour areas? Indeed. The result is that you just | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
put up for Labour are frankly abysmal for the main opposition | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
party at this point of Parliament. The Conservatives in one way or | :50:22. | :50:25. | |
another have now been in power for six years - their results are not | :50:26. | :50:30. | |
that bad. The Lib Dems as we have said are making some progress, | :50:31. | :50:33. | |
significant in some by-elections. But for the main opposition party in | :50:34. | :50:37. | |
England to be losing seats net is pretty bad. Will that give the | :50:38. | :50:43. | |
Liberal Democrats a rich seam than looking towards the Conservatives | :50:44. | :50:47. | |
eats or areas that they lost in the south-west, for example, where Tim | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
Farron seems to be looking, but there is no enthusiasm the | :50:52. | :50:54. | |
pro-European stance of the Liberal Democrats, there? Don't know yet | :50:55. | :50:58. | |
whether, when we get to the next general election, whenever that is, | :50:59. | :51:02. | |
it could be next year, it could be 2020, it could be in between, | :51:03. | :51:07. | |
whether the EU will play a major dominating role or not. It may just | :51:08. | :51:10. | |
be back to the economy and the normal stuff with the EU as a bit | :51:11. | :51:15. | |
player - we will have to wait and see. But I think going back to the | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
progress the Lib Dems are making, we now know, because we live in | :51:20. | :51:22. | |
multiparty politics, increasingly, all over Britain, that if the Lib | :51:23. | :51:28. | |
Dems are doing better, even against Labour, it could harm the | :51:29. | :51:30. | |
Conservatives in some parts of the country. And so as the Lib Dems | :51:31. | :51:35. | |
start to pick up, it will be very interesting to see for example in | :51:36. | :51:38. | |
the county elections next year and the local elections in Scotland and | :51:39. | :51:43. | |
Wales, whether as it were, a beginning of a Lib Dem fightback | :51:44. | :51:47. | |
damages only Labour or Labour and the Conservatives. It could do | :51:48. | :51:50. | |
different things in different parts of the country. Whether that feeds | :51:51. | :51:53. | |
to a general election, we would have to wait and see. Thank you very much | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
for giving us that detail. I will not ask you about why the SNP lost | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
that one local by-election. How did that happen? I was going to ask. The | :52:03. | :52:11. | |
Lib Dems had to close the count because it was so empty, the hall. | :52:12. | :52:13. | |
That's quite sad, isn't it? There was a mixture of approval | :52:14. | :52:18. | |
and mockery this week when the Corbyn-supporting campaign | :52:19. | :52:20. | |
group Momentum announced that it was setting up | :52:21. | :52:22. | |
an activity group for children. Called Momentum Kids, | :52:23. | :52:25. | |
it's intended to provide childcare for parents who want to get involved | :52:26. | :52:27. | |
in political activism. Some thought this was an entirely | :52:28. | :52:33. | |
sensible idea, but others weren't exactly keen on the idea that it | :52:34. | :52:36. | |
might involve politicising children. Lib Dem leader Tim Farron dubbed | :52:37. | :52:39. | |
the group Tiny Trots, and the idea may not have been | :52:40. | :52:41. | |
helped by an advert for an event at this weekend's Labour conference | :52:42. | :52:46. | |
featuring a "Teddy Bear Children were invited | :52:47. | :52:48. | |
to bring their favourite toy, imagine what party it might join, | :52:49. | :52:53. | |
think about what their teddy stands for, its values and how it might | :52:54. | :52:56. | |
make positive changes. So, is this revolutionary | :52:57. | :53:02. | |
brainwashing or an entirely harmless way to get more people | :53:03. | :53:04. | |
involved in politics? Well, I'm joined now | :53:05. | :53:06. | |
by the childrens' author Michael Rosen, and by Laura Perrins | :53:07. | :53:08. | |
from the website Conservative Women. Welcome to both of you. Michael | :53:09. | :53:15. | |
Rosen, is it ideological brainwashing? No, it's exactly what | :53:16. | :53:21. | |
the Government recommends. If you look closely at the government's | :53:22. | :53:25. | |
British values site, it says that schools should encourage children to | :53:26. | :53:28. | |
demonstrate how democracy works. It's is those exact words - | :53:29. | :53:32. | |
demonstrate how democracy works. That's what all schools should be | :53:33. | :53:35. | |
doing. And what's wrong with that? Well, I think this is another great | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
example of how the left, it's a rather sinister example of sort of | :53:40. | :53:43. | |
grooming and for treating a very young child's mind onto a very | :53:44. | :53:49. | |
leftist agenda. And we've always, there are plenty of examples of | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
that. If it was just avoiding childcare, there's nothing wrong | :53:54. | :53:57. | |
with that, but the idea that we are empowering children, very young | :53:58. | :54:01. | |
toddlers and children to hold up placards, it's going little bit too | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
far, I think. Didn't have the bit you read out say that they get to | :54:06. | :54:11. | |
choose which party? Yes, if it was a right-wing grassroots organisation, | :54:12. | :54:13. | |
perhaps like your own, what would be wrong with providing childcare and | :54:14. | :54:17. | |
perhaps talking about politics? I think you have to be careful in | :54:18. | :54:20. | |
terms of not trying to go behind the backs of parents and as I said, | :54:21. | :54:27. | |
influencing the minds of very, very young children. Other parents not | :54:28. | :54:32. | |
going along? Look, the parents will be politicking with the children | :54:33. | :54:38. | |
separated in the crash. While they are out protesting. Michael Rosen, | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
why is it necessary to have it with a political backdrop? If families | :54:44. | :54:46. | |
want to talk politics at home or take their kids out on protests, | :54:47. | :54:50. | |
they can do that, why does there have to be a political thing? There | :54:51. | :54:58. | |
does not have to be at all. Why say, we will in some ways in Dockrell | :54:59. | :55:02. | |
eight your children? There does not have to be at all. I belonged to | :55:03. | :55:06. | |
left-wing groups when I was a child. I might have been indoctrinated! | :55:07. | :55:11. | |
When you were very young children and I was no good at making | :55:12. | :55:17. | |
placards! But the carrot is the free childcare. So it's quite clever, you | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
could argue that it is never for a political party to offer free | :55:23. | :55:24. | |
childcare and recruit new people, not people who are already | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
indoctrinated like yourself! I feel very indoctrinated, thank you. But | :55:30. | :55:32. | |
you could say, as people do, you cant things to children and show | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
them things and demonstrate how democracy works, which is what the | :55:38. | :55:41. | |
government recommends, and some children will walk away because | :55:42. | :55:44. | |
they're bored stiff. Whatever they do it will have to be fun, because | :55:45. | :55:49. | |
they are not at school, it is not punishment. It's always fun, | :55:50. | :55:53. | |
indoctrination! What's the difference between sitting at the | :55:54. | :55:57. | |
dinner papal with your family, putting the same newspapers in front | :55:58. | :56:01. | |
of you all day basis, you're being indoctrinated from a fairly early | :56:02. | :56:05. | |
age by your parents, so what would be wrong with extending that | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
slightly? That's if you think parents and politicians are exactly | :56:10. | :56:16. | |
the same ridge of course they're not. Let me finish, other people | :56:17. | :56:21. | |
have a view. Of course political discussion around the dinner table | :56:22. | :56:24. | |
should be encouraged, and I do it at home a lot. But that's very | :56:25. | :56:29. | |
different to separating children, very young children, five and six, | :56:30. | :56:32. | |
from their parents, hooding them in a room and setting about this, as I | :56:33. | :56:37. | |
said, what is essentially indoctrination. It shows how extreme | :56:38. | :56:44. | |
Momentum are. Would the SNP do it? I'm sitting here listening to this | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
teddy business and it's a bit like Chairman Mao goads to Brideshead, | :56:49. | :57:01. | |
isn't it? Jeremy Corbyn joins the Pooh Sticks society. I read the | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
website, it wasn't exactly full with fun. What about children's books, | :57:06. | :57:12. | |
lots of children's books have moral messaging in them? And I have one | :57:13. | :57:22. | |
here, let's celebrate 25 years since the great Dr Zeuss died. What is the | :57:23. | :57:29. | |
message? The message is that if you are poor and downtrodden, you should | :57:30. | :57:34. | |
fight back. Have you read it? I've read a lot of yours, Michael Rosen, | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
and I'm disturbed about this book being used to indoctrinate children. | :57:40. | :57:43. | |
I read it to my kids all the time. All the family are underneath the | :57:44. | :57:48. | |
duvet, and this is what the ordinary Labour Party members will be on | :57:49. | :57:53. | |
Saturday. Are you reading some of this into everything here?! That's | :57:54. | :57:57. | |
where middle Britain is, hiding under the covers! And sharing a bed | :57:58. | :58:07. | |
as well, with an animal. I feel like this is a sort of Jackanory session. | :58:08. | :58:11. | |
Andrew has fallen asleep. I was just reading the Harvard business review! | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
Meanwhile, the answer to our quiz question... | :58:17. | :58:18. | |
There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz. | :58:19. | :58:22. | |
The question was which award-winning director has made a documentary | :58:23. | :58:24. | |
I would love to see the Quentin Tarantino version, myself. You might | :58:25. | :58:39. | |
see that this weekend! But I suspect it might be Ken Loach. And you're | :58:40. | :58:42. | |
right! The One O'clock News is starting | :58:43. | :58:46. | |
over on BBC One now. I'll be here on BBC One tonight | :58:47. | :58:50. | |
after Question Time for the return of This Week, with Ed Vaizey, | :58:51. | :58:53. | |
Lisa Nandy, Ken Livingstone, Miranda Green, Quentin Letts | :58:54. | :58:56. | |
and Katie Price. If there is nothing new, | :58:57. | :58:57. | |
then the Court of Appeal aren't going to change | :58:58. | :59:07. | |
their decision. | :59:08. | :59:11. |