27/09/2016: Labour Party Conference Daily Politics

27/09/2016: Labour Party Conference

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Welcome to Liverpool, and day three of the Labour Party conference,


where there's been angry debate this morning as left and right


wrestle for control of the party's ruling executive.


Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.


The Labour Party's official policy is to renew Trident, so why


was their Shadow Defence Secretary's attempt to say the policy wouldn't


90 million people are said to have watched the debate.


No, I'm not talking about the one here in Liverpool


We'll ask who won the first big televised debate of the US


presidential campaign, Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump?


Anti-Semitism in the Labour Party is not a big problem.


That was the conclusion of an independent


report by human-rights lawyer Shami Chakrabarti.


Was a Labour seat in the House of Lords her reward?


This is more fun than the conference!


And, don't like the old tunes they're playing at conference?


How some rebel Labour MPs got a ticket to ride to perform


All that in the next hour from the conference centre


And enjoying the fabulous Liverpudlian hospitality


are the journalists Polly Toynbee and Steve Richards.


Welcome back. What struck me in the past 24 hours, John MacDonald made


the Shadow Chancellor speech designed to get the party onto big


policy issues. Overshadowed by the row over Clive Lewis on Trident.


This morning there will be major announcements on child care,


education, more issues for the Labour Party, but they got worked up


on the composition of the National Executive Committee. Discuss. That


is what is really going on. The fight possibly to the death for the


heart of the Labour Party for controlling, the NEC controls the


rules. If the Corbyn side of the party can get control of it, which


they have not, they one vote short, they can change the rules in future


which means in future the party will always be captured by their side of


the party. The other side of the party is fighting hard to prevent


rule changes. Let's give viewers a flavour of the debate this morning.


We need to be debating policies to put them into place,


to take them forward and make us look like a Labour government.


I shouldn't have to to support what is essentially


This party should make its rules at its conference, one by one,


We have the eyes of the country on us here.


And a country that is desperately looking for solutions


And it makes Labour look pretty self-indulgent and quite frankly


dysfunctional if all we're doing is having a debate about even


Colleagues, to take a show of hands to see...


Listen, we're going to go to a show of hands.


Can I see all those in favour of accepting the report.


That was a flavour, there was a lot of passion but not passion about


being against Grumman schools -- Grammar schools, how we defend the


nation, how we improve social care, it was about how you choose the NEC.


Takes you back to the 70s and 80s when these things happened all the


time at conferences. Incidentally in periods when they won elections as


well as losing them so it does not automatically mean they are doomed


because they are having these things. The reality is a power


struggle so these things come to matter. The policy-making bodies


will influence the future direction of the party, so although it seems


parochial and insular, it will have consequences, as they used to do in


the 70s and 80s when that bodied ruled everything. Tony Benn became


chair of the home policy committee on the NEC. No one outside would pay


attention. It was a massive power grab in the 70s and 80s. That is why


these things matter. I don't think it means in itself this deeply


dysfunctional party is doomed, because they were dysfunctional in


the 60s and 70s and still won occasionally. We understand the


centrists won the motion and that's the idea is a Scottish and Welsh


representative will go on the NEC, they will be appointed, more likely


not to be Corbynistas. It seems Mr Corbyn's movement has not yet got


control of the NEC. Not yet, but it is not clear because what will come


up at the next meeting will be the idea there should be a special


conference called about rule changes, in which they will hope,


particularly if it is a vote among members, that they can change the


rules in ways... The most important one, could they changed the rules


for triggering the selections of MPs? If they change that rule and


make it easier, a vote of the local party instead of the complicated


system now in which various groups get a vote, it would make it easier


to sweep away. It is not clear because the trade unions on the NEC,


some go this way on one subject and that way on another Anne -- and on


any particular issue it is difficult to call. I read the unions were the


key to this. The swing vote on the NEC and they could determine the


direction of policy, which is interesting to know, but also


interesting that in 2016, the unions would be the pivotal force. It is


one of the things so dated about the Labour Party and has been for a long


time. They are a pivotal force and might still be a pivotal force if


for example as I think is likely that the Conservative government


will be in crisis over Brexit within 18 months. If the Labour Party is


25% then, I think some of those unions might have a pivotal role in


changing things perhaps at the top of the Labour Party. There will be


space at some point in this Parliament. The rebels, so-called,


made a big mistake in going for him this summer. You agree with that? It


did not work, the -- it must've been a mistake. There is much blame


floating about amongst the non-Corbynistas. They are not


coherent and cannot decide whether they would or would not go back into


the cabinet. Should they insist he lets them elect themselves to go


back in the Shadow Cabinet. Corbyn has given nothing away since his


victory. He has not been magnanimous. It is interesting to


see. Thanks for getting proceedings off live today.


There's been a lot of talk about party unity at this


conference, but it was looking in rather short supply yesterday


when the Shadow Defence Secretary Clive Lewis apparently had part


of his speech relating to Trident rewritten at the last minute


by an aide to Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn.


Mr Corbyn, of course, doesn't want to see


the nuclear-weapons system replaced, or renewed


Clive Lewis was thought to be planning to tell conference


that he wouldn't seek to end the party's commitment


to renewing Trident, because it was crucial


"I am sceptical about Trident renewal, but I am clear


that our party has a policy for Trident renewal."


But while waiting on stage before his speech, he reportedly found out


was "And I wouldn't seek to change it,"


and had been removed from the autocue at the last


by Jeremy Corbyn's director of communications Seamus Milne.


Mr Lewis was not happy, appearing visibly perturbed


Reports circulated that he vented his frustration


afterwards by punching a wall and throwing his phone.


Later, however, he seemed to confirm his original commitment,


telling the Guardian, "I won't be coming back


to conference between now and the next election


to try to undo the policy we have on Trident."


Well, as you may remember, Clive Lewis was due to appear


on this programme yesterday after his speech, but we were told


he couldn't appear as he went to the leader's office.


We don't know if he was there to discuss the disagreement over


But he was keen to downplay the whole


episode as he left the conference centre yesterday.


Every speech is a collective process and I think you guys...


You guys are trying to trip me up and upset me.


I'm really happy where we are and I think...


Was your autocue changed at the last minute?


My speech is a collaborative process.


That's all I can say and all I will say.


I'm pleased my speech is out of the way, and,


you know what, I just want to get on with the conference.


Well, we asked to speak to Clive Lewis again today,


but we so far haven't been able to reach him.


Maybe when his mobile phone hit the wall it screwed it up and it is not


working. But I'm pleased to say


we are joined now by his Shadow Cabinet colleague,


the Shadow Minister Welcome. You have heard what we


think happens. What do you think happened? I don't know, that is the


most comprehensive report I have seen or heard so far into what went


on. I think he delivered a good speech, he is an eloquent public


Speaker. He stated the policy of the party is to maintain a independent


nuclear deterrent, which was voted on by party conference over the


years and went into the manifesto. I don't know what has gone on behind


the scenes with the press secretary apparently changing things, I have


no idea. I know Clive stated the position of the party yesterday. The


words I think -- we think were removed, we can put them on the


autocue. The words, I am clear our party has a policy for Trident


renewal and I would not seek to change it. We think these are the


lines. Would you be prepared to say these lines? I would be prepared to


say it is clear our party has a policy for Trident renewal and I


would not seek to change it? Yes. Members of the body, including


affiliated members, are affected by this decision and I understand the


future of submarines has to be debated across the party. I think


that is a sensible approach. Although Mr Lewis has doubts about


Trident renewal he recognises it is party policy and that he does not


have any stomach for changing it this side of the next election, why


would he not say these words? I don't know if they were in the


original draft. It is speculation they were in the original draft.


Jeremy Corbyn, our leader, and when Emily was Shadow Defence Secretary,


launched a review into the future of the nuclear deterrent. My


understanding is we will discuss these matters across the party,


involving members and unions who represent the workforces involved


and we will come to a decision but at the moment the policy is to


maintain Trident. Do we know when the defence review will be


published? The interim report was published a couple of months ago and


there are discussions of the policy. We have to have a national policy


forum. No doubt we will come to future conferences with a new


position. It is possible, working on the assumption of 2020 election, the


policy could change by that election? Is possible. I think it


unlikely, but it is possible. You seem doubtful. It is clear Mr Corbyn


wants to change the policy, can we agree on that? Jeremy is a lifetime


unilateralist. I think the party can unite around the position of


multilateralist. I think we can find consensus. We represent thousands of


workers who make the submarines at Barrow and elsewhere who are


represented by the GMB and Unite and they have to be part of the policy


discussions on these matters, as well.


Are you not dancing with shadows here? And taking the British people


for a ride? Jeremy Corbyn has said that if Prime Minister he would


never use the nuclear deterrent, at all. So whether the party is in


favour or not is irrelevant. If the Prime Minister is not going to use


it, it is a waste of money. But we will get a position for our


manifesto and go to the country with it. Whatever the position, if your


leader says that the will not give any instructions under any


circumstances for the deterrent to be used, it is irrelevant. It is


not, because we want to implement our policies and when we win the


election they will have a Labour Cabinet who will want to safeguard


the security of the country. But the Cabinet does not the side, it is the


Prime Minister's job. Whoever becomes Prime Minister, they have to


give written instructions to the submarine commanders, it is done in


a special way, locked in a safe, for use in the eventuality of an


Armageddon situation. If he does not do that, the nuclear deterrent would


have no idea in a Jeremy Corbyn Government how to respond. These


things would have to be discussed. I believe that the Labour Party will


not take any risks with the security of this nation. That is our


priority. I am sorry to harp on, I don't understand how you can say


that and be backing a leader who says that he believes that we should


unilaterally scrap the deterrent, and even if we still have it when he


comes to power, he would never use it. Jeremy is a believer in the


democracy of the party. If the party arrives at the position to maintain


the deterrent, he would not want to be out of tune with the decisions of


sovereign conference. Why are you staying in the Shadow Cabinet? The


Labour Party is elected -- has elected Jeremy is the leader, we


have a duty to scrutinise the Tories. I believe some of us need to


be on the front bench doing that, and I believe we have to get Labour


elected, because the Tory party are making a number of fundamental


mistakes which need to -- which we be to exploit. You say it gives you


and your side of the party a seat on the NEC? What is my side of the


party? Clearly not Jeremy Corbyn's. My side is the unity side. I don't


believe Jeremy Corbyn is the enemy of any party member, nor do I


believe that MPs who get pointed to on Twitter are enemies. The Tories


are the opponents. What has Jeremy Corbyn done to reach out to you? To


me personally? To your side of the party. I believe we should now look


at some form of elected Shadow Cabinet, not the whole Shadow


Cabinet, but an element of it, and it would encourage colleagues to


serve on the front page. Do you believe Jeremy Corbyn would like to


go down that road? He is listening to people, his team are in


discussions with the Chief Whip and the chair of the parliamentary


party. Let me come back to my previous question. What has Jeremy


Corbyn done to reach out to you since he got re-elected? He says he


wants to pull people together and unite people and get everybody


working together. Every politician says that. No party leader says, I


want to does unite by party. He is engaging in discussions. His team


are engaging in discussions. His supporters stopped the appointment


of the Scottish Labour leader and the Welsh Labour leader onto the


NEC. That was not reaching out to you. I was in favour of the Scottish


and Welsh leaders coming on the NEC. I have been coming to NEC meetings


for 12 years,... You are looking well on it! I have never known so


much interest in the NEC! I have wanted the Scottish and Welsh


leaders on the NEC. We have the leaders of the European Parliament


three party and the local Government, so we should have the


leaders of the Scottish and Welsh parties. Why was there such emotion


about this this morning, trying to stop that? I don't know. I don't see


why it is such an unreasonable thing that they are represented on the


NEC. We had some interesting NEC meetings this week, and eight and a


half hour one last week, lots of good discussions and debate, very


comradely. It is a sensible move. Is there not a danger that those who


would remove Jeremy Corbyn lost quite spectacularly, it was not the


best organised of attempted coups, but having lost out, I do not now


trying to win the process by all of the emphasis on the NEC? Nobody


outside this hall, or even some people inside the hall, listening to


you. Even in the city of Liverpool, one of our great socialist cities,


99% of Liverpudlians could not give a monkeys of. I cannot move around


this without a journalist stopping me to ask me about the NEC. You


debated it this morning, we are following your agenda. Not our own


agenda. We always have rule changes on the Tuesday morning of the


conference, they don't normally get this much interest. Are you


comfortable that the Shadow Chancellor's economic programme


would seem to be involving the borrowing of perhaps up to ?500


billion? People want to spread that over a number of years. I do believe


we need to make an argument about investment in the economy. When


interest rates are so low, there is room for extra borrowing, so long as


it is spent on infrastructure. It is not 500,000,000,001 go. It would


take our national debt to ?2 trillion. It is already 1.6 trillion


under George Osborne and now Philip Hammond. Are you comfortable that it


could soar to over 2 trillion? We will see what projections will be


when we have seen the books. Philip Hammond has not told us what his


fiscal rules will be, when he will try to reach a surplus. We have to


look forward to the Autumn Statement, then we will be clearer.


You are the second Labour MP in 24 hours that has answered my question


about John McDonnell by answering about Philip Hammond. Is this a


trend? It is what politicians do, you know that. I do, to my cost! I


am only 35, but this is how I look! 12 NEC years, you are as young as


can the! 37. Not a day over 25! Now, it may have been


the most-watched political No, I don't mean


yesterday's Daily Politics. Or even Diane Abbott's speech


to conference this morning, But the first televised debate last


night between Presidential candidates Donald Trump


and Hillary Clinton. Some of us here in Liverpool,


me included, were hardy enough, you might say foolish enough,


to stay up until the If you didn't, here's a flavour


of the exchanges between the two candidates, who appear to be


in a dead heat in the race We think at least 90 million people


in America watched this debate, the biggest televised political event in


history. Two candidates who appear to be in a dead heat.


His cavalier attitude about nuclear weapons is so deeply troubling.


That is the number one threat we face in the world and it becomes


particularly threatening if terrorists ever get their hands


So a man who can be provoked by a tweet should not


have his fingers anywhere near the nuclear codes,


as far as I think anyone with any sense about should be concerned.


That's getting a bit old, I must say.


Secretary Clinton doesn't want to use a couple of words


If we don't have it, we're not going to have a country.


By the end of this evening, I'm going to be


blamed for everything that's ever happened.


Just join the debate by saying more crazy things.


She tells you how to fight Isis on her website.


I don't think General Douglas MacArthur would


At least I have a plan to fight Isis.


No, no, you're telling the enemy everything you want to do.


See, you're telling the enemy everything you want to do.


No wonder you've been fighting Isis your entire adult life.


Please, the fact checkers, go to work.


I was the one that got him to produce the birth certificate


Now everybody in mainstream is going to say, that's not true.


He has really started his political activity based on this racist lie


that our first black president was not an American citizen.


There is absolutely no evidence for it, but he persisted.


I think my strongest asset, maybe by far, is my temperament.


The other day, behind the blue screen, I don't know


who you were talking to, Secretary Clinton,


I said, there's a person with a temperament


OK! The consensus seems to be that Hillary Clinton got the better of


Donald Trump. But not by much. And perhaps not by enough to be a game


changer. You can decide for yourself, you can watch the full


debate on BBC Parliament at 12:45pm. Not want to go. We prefer if you


wait until the end of the Daily Politics before you switch over. Not


much happened in the first 15 minutes!


From our studio in Brussels, we're joined by former Ukip


We're joined now by the Labour MP Jamie Reed.


He's a keen supporter of Hillary Clinton and was


Donald Trump did not quite sparkle enough last night.


It was unsurprising, Hillary Clinton is a professional politician,


trained, scripted, good boys, but very little warmth. Donald Trump,


the nonprofessional politician, not least to this format, did in the


early part, the first third, on the economic, positive stuff. Overall,


the commentator will say it was Hillary Clinton that edged it


marginally, the real question is, did that debate last night change


the minds of any undecided voters? I would say no. I would say in ten


years, 20 years, we will not remember a single exchange from last


night, and we have got Louisiana and Vegas to come. How do you think


Hillary Clinton did? She was excellent. Going into the debate she


was clearly characterised as being almost sterile, difficult to like,


robotic, and she came across very warm and confident and, even, fairly


sassy. These e-mails continue to haunt her. Donald Trump, when they


were arguing about his tax return, he threw the e-mails. He said, I


will show you my tax return if you show me the deleted e-mails. They


still haunt her, that is the nature of American politics, both


candidates have long histories in and outside politics. In terms of


shifting the needle, I think Donald Trump's tax returns have the


potential to shift it far more than any e-mails. It was suggested last


night in the debate, which was a delicious prospect, he did not deny


that the reason he is not publishing his tax returns is he does not pay


any federal income tax, he may be so overloaded with debt, it is all


packed that the he not pay any. He did not deny that, he just said, it


would make him smart. That is not credible for a multi billionaire to


pay no federal tax, is it? As you say, a different tax system


and culture, but you are right, it is a question, I think, that he will


need to answer. I suggest he needs to point out, aged 70, how much tax


he has paid over the last 50 years, not what he paid last year.


Companies have up years and down years, borrowings. He needs to


answer back and that was the 1.I thought Hillary made that put him on


the back foot, as indeed the e-mail question she can't answer. I think


he needs to come up with an answer to say he has paid his fair share


over half a century. You are the only British politician I think who


has shared a platform with him in this run. Are you telling him today


he should publish some tax returns? My advice is he needs to deal with


the question Hillary put. He has said clearly, I will show you mine


if you will show me yours. She has already published her tax returns.


Both her and Bill Clinton have published their tax returns. The


point made was that there is still this incredible secrecy around these


e-mails. These arguments will go back and forth. What is more


interesting is when we get to Louisiana, the debate will move on


to immigration, open borders and terrorism. I think that, either way,


will probably be the game changer for this presidential election.


Perhaps Mrs Clinton's biggest problem is that in an America, you


were in Mississippi, you will know there is an antiestablishment mood


in America. There is also an anti-politician mood in America.


There is an anti-continuity and Mrs Clinton represents the


establishment, the political establishment and continuity. I


think that is true and I would expect to see those charges levelled


against the Clinton campaign until polling day. Where Nigel is wrong


and it feeds into the point you are making, it is the thing for the


candidates to publish their tax return. In the midst of the worst


crash since the great depression, that it is all right for the US


presidential candidate not to pay taxes in that period, that destroys


charges about not wanting a continuity candidate because that


demonstrates a cavalier attitude towards public office. Did you


believe Donald Trump, Nigel Farage, when he claimed that he had what is


known as the controversy, the argument over whether President


Obama was actually born in America. I say argument but the facts are


pretty much overwhelming, if not unanimous that of course he was born


in America. Mr Trump kept it alive for five years. I have seen endless


video of him questioning whether Mr Obama was worried and was that a


dangerous thing to do, not just because of the absence of evidence,


but because this was the first black president and to question whether he


was born in the US was as Mrs Clinton said, effectively racist, a


racist line of attack. When it comes to racist lines of attack against


President Obama I suggest people look at Hillary's campaign team and


what was said in 2008. This becomes a score draw in the end. Hold on,


Hillary Clinton did not get involved in that. Some of her campaign team


may have. She never indoor Stitt, she never used it and never carried


on for the next five years saying they was still an argument about


this. As I have learned myself, if employees or people in your team say


and do inappropriate things, you have to act and there was no


evidence she did. On the birth stuff, clearly Donald Trump was


wrong and so the dangerous thing would be to maintain that line but


he has changed his position on it, sensibly. These arguments about the


personal failings of either candidate will go back and forth.


This is about, do you want to vote for the establishment, business as


usual, or do you want to vote for change? That is what this election


is about and I do not think last night moved us forward on that.


After last night, do you think Mr Trump will still win? Mr Trump's


voters are like Brexit voters, they believe in it, have enthusiastic and


passion. He is the one with momentum, I still think he will win.


I think when we next see Nigel trying to make a comeback he will


have to explain why he has tried to defend Donald Trump's racism. It


will be a tight contest. I expect Hillary to win but it could be


tighter than people expect. You both expect your person to win. I heard


Nigel Farage saying that Donald Trump had the backing of momentum!


Who knew that? Thanks to you both. We will get to speak to you again as


the US campaign goes on. Does the Labour Party have a problem


with anti-Semitism? Well, what was billed


as an independent report on the issue concluded


that it was not "overrun" And at the fringe event


run by Jeremy Corbyn campaign group Momentum,


it was claimed that the problem has been "exaggerated


for political purposes." It's a subject that's been debated


at conference this morning. Let's have listen to Mike Katz


from the Jewish Labour group. I don't want to be here,


because I wish there hadn't been an upsurge in anti-Semitic,


Islamophobic, misogynistic and homophobic vile hate


speech in our party. Against this backdrop


is there any wonder, conference, that support for Labour amongst


British Jews is said The party of Manny Shinwell,


the party that has done more than any other to promote


tolerance and equality. The party to which the Jewish Labour


movement has been affiliated since 1920 is not seen


as a welcoming home for Jews. Are you disappointed your enquiry


has not closed down this issue? I think my findings have yet to be


fully implemented that I was delighted to hear a few days ago the


NEC of the Labour Party has adopted certain aspects of my report. The


recommendations of language and conduct and stereotyping. There are


procedural recommendations that have yet to be implemented. Not least


greater resource for discipline and an in-house counsel. At the


conference leaflets have been handed out calling for the expulsion of the


Jewish labour movement. A Labour peer has resigned over anti-Semitism


and a Jewish MP has had to employ personal security to come to


conference. I would suggest it is a big problem. There are issues and we


cannot run away from them. They are serious. They are serious issues and


more needs to be done but I was heartened to hear a re-elected


Jeremy Corbyn uses now greater mandate to be clearer than he has


ever been with people across the party, including people who claim to


be his friends. He has been crystal clear this will not be tolerated and


I think that is incredibly important. No part of our society is


immune from anti-Semitism and from racism as we saw in the referendum


campaign. It seems to be prevalent in the Labour Party. I am not going


to get into the competition of virtue and victimhood. In British


politics we lost a bright MP in that toxic summer. This is what you and


Jeremy Corbyn have done, you tried to generalise the anti-rather than


sticking with the issues. A Jewish peer left because he described your


report as an anaemic whitewash. I regret that and I am sorry to see


him go. I would urge people to read my report. I have read the report. I


do not think there is any whitewash. I said difficult things to the


party. I was not able to name and shame individuals still pending


discipline. I understand that, but have you spoken to parry Mitchell? I


have not spoken to Lord Mitchell. Would it be worthwhile to reassure


him? I spoke to him in the run-up to the report and I know his concerns


and when I am back in London and Westminster I will try to speak to


him again. The Jewish board of deputies of the most important


Jewish organisation, describing the report as a white wash for peerages


scandal. A particular person described it in that way. I would


say no community is a monolith and know one person speaks on behalf of


an entire community and I had a lot of solidarity and gratitude and


welcome and support from other members of that community. A leading


Jewish charities said the report was a shameless kick in the teeth. I am


sorry that not everyone agrees with everything I wrote. What leading


Jewish organisations have supported your report? I have had support from


a number of people in the Jewish labour movement, from rabbis. I did


not ask about individuals, I asked what leading Jewish organisation has


supported the report? I wrote the report mostly for Jewish members of


the Labour Party who felt threatened and unwelcome and interestingly they


cross the political spectrum. But what may be leading Jewish


institution has backed your support? I am not doing this for institutions


but for people. I know what it is like to receive racism and I have


been aware of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party and in the country all


my life and that motivated me to do this work and it is what motivates


me still. Why did you join the Labour Party to do this report? We


have known you have had Labour leanings, but for the wider public


that wanted to be reassured this was an independent report, why join the


party to do the report? Because in my view, if you want to achieve


change and tell people difficult things about themselves and about


their party, it is better to do that honestly from within. People respect


you as an independent voice. That is left-leaning but not in anybody's


pocket. I am not doing anybody's pocket. I might have my suspicions


about your leanings as a broadcaster but I do not doubt you are


independent and I am independent. People respected you as independent.


Would you not undermine that by joining the party? This was a report


for the party, about saying to fellow Labour members we have to


look at ourselves in the mirror. This party instituted every piece of


equality legislation this country has known and we have to live up to


those values ourselves. Would it not have garnered more weight in the


country and among people in the Labour Party if it was seen to be


done by an independent outsider? Parties often bring in independent


outsiders to review processes, usually a lawyer and you are a


lawyer. That is one point of view. But another, and mine, it is if you


want to say hard truths to any family and want to tell people they


are falling down on values, sometimes it is better to do that


from within. A lot of people do not think you told hard truths. You had


minor criticisms but not hard truths. I do not think it is a minor


criticism to talk about epithets used within the party nor to talk


about the way in which the Holocaust has been used in vain. People have


used Nazi stereotypes and anti-Semitic stereotypes. It is in


the report as his criticism of the disciplinary process and I hope and


believe now this toxic summer and this civil war is coming to an end.


People from all strands of the party will get behind the report and we


can do better. When was the prospect of a peerage first discussed with


you? I have dealt with all of these questions. Just indulge us. It is


the first time we have had to chat. The report was published on June 30.


When was the prospect of a peerage first discussed, not the offer, the


prospect? After the report. No discussion beforehand? It was after


my report. It was part of the Prime Minister's resignation honours, I


understand. There was no discussion of a peerage with anyone in the


Labour Party before the report was published? I have been approached


for peerages and third... Will you let me finish the answer to your


question? I have been approached. I have been approached by senior


politicians. I am talking about this peerage. This peerage, the only one


I have ever owned, was offered to be after the report as part of the


Prime Minister's resignation list. Was it discussed before the report


with anybody in the Labour Party? And when were you offered the


peerage, when did Mr Corbyn or his office suggest they put you up for


that? It was around the time of the Prime Minister's final PMQs. I


believe that is when the two men had the conversation. And you had no


inkling he would be offered a peerage? I have heard all sorts of


rumours and all sorts of people have suggested I entered Parliament as an


MP, that I work for the party. Do different things. Because I joined


the Labour Party. I have had these smears all summer. They are not


smears, they factual questions. And I have answered. Would it clarify


everything, a former head of Liberty and a in transparency, if you


published your correspondence with the Labour Party and yourself on


this matter? Yes, except there isn't any correspondence. Not at all? This


was an offer that was made to me over the telephone by Mr Corbyn. He


made it first? He made it over the telephone personally and there might


be people in his office who have notes of that.


Would you be interested in serving in the Shadow Cabinet? It would be


completely presumptuous of me to be making job applications on national


television. I was not asking for that, but what I am saying is, if


asked, would you be interested? It is not appropriate for me to do


this. Issues around the composition of the Shadow Cabinet are incredibly


sensitive at a time when the party needs to unite behind Jeremy Corbyn.


That is the priority. There are 16 vacancies. He needs some fresh


talent, everybody would agree that you can be filed under fresh talent.


Would it not be part of the Unity Project to join his team? I will try


and help this party and help the Unity Project. I am trying to now by


sitting here. I will do everything I can to be part of the solution and


not part of the problem, but the best way for me to help is for other


people to decide. Now, a proposal to have


a debate on Brexit here But we're helpful folk


here at the Daily Politics and wanted to allow delegates


to have their say. So what better way to do


that than to get Adam They are not having this debate on


the conference hall, so let's have it here. Brexit, embrace it or fight


it? The people have spoken, 52%, it would not be democratic to deny


them. I would say embrace it. Scotland has two accept their result


in 2014, we have to accept our result in 2016. Embrace it or fight


it? I have gone for the wrong box! We have to be careful what the terms


are, but absolutely embrace it, because it was democratic. What does


your hair look like when you wake up in the morning? It is all over the


place on it is a wonder to behold! Thank you. Fight it. We should have


another vote. People were lied to. The man himself. That is what I


tagged it as when I posted it on Facebook. 30 likes so far. Neither.


Pretend it does not exist? I would like to fight it, but we have to


make the best of it. Somebody thought it was embrace IT! We all


have to embrace IT! Can things turn out OK? If it was the Labour Party


and Jeremy sorting it out, yes, but I would not trust the Tories. We


don't have to take these top-level European commissioners' word, you


can do your own thing. It is not working for working people.


Everybody sees midday from their own doorstep. What does that mean? It is


a French saying. You speak multiple languages? What is Spanish for this?


And embrace is... Can I do this for the 10pm News one


night? We can do it tomorrow! I thought I could do it. That's fine!


The unscientific result, it is pretty close, but there are more


embrace of fun fighters. And we're joined now by Shadow


Health Secretary Diane Abbott, You told a fringe meeting last night


that people who voted for Brexit wanted to see less foreign looking


people on their streets. Is that right? You get the sense there were


a variety of reasons for voting for Brexit. One was the long-standing


issue of sovereignty and Brussels bureaucracy. A lot of my colleagues


have said that many of their voters voted for it because they were


concerned about immigration. How many of the 17 million who voted for


it wanted less foreign looking people? I can't say, but we have


seen some horrible attacks both on Eastern European and people of any


colour when you get far out of London. That speaks to even if it is


a tiny minority people who are motivated badly. Have you


established these attacks are related to Brexit? You did not have


this flurry of attacks on polls and Eastern European. I have a friend on


the south coast, she has had abuse shouted at her, she is a black


woman, and they say, we voted for Brexit. I voted to remain. You were


quite Brexit minded. I was Euro-sceptic about the economic and


financial arrangements, but in the end remaining was the right thing to


do. You are not one of the 17 million who want less foreign


looking people around? I am not saying they were all motivated by


that, but the evidence suggests that someone. The theme of your approach


to the health service is to reverse the privatisation of the NHS. We are


seeing a rise, a small rise, but steadily, in the amount of NHS


funding going to Private organisations. What percentage?


Think it is less than 10% at the moment. 6.5% of the whole budget. It


is rising more slowly than it did under the last Labour Government.


There is concerned about the fragmentation of the health service.


And whether this will make it easier to privatise. You don't think it is


the Government's policy at the moment to privatise it? The health


and social act makes it easier, makes it easier for hospitals to


have a higher proportion of being patient. What does it mean to


nationalise the health service? Most GP practices are privately provided,


they don't work for the state. Most hospital CT scanners are privately


provided, buildings, beds, bandages and Lou Rawls, all medicines are


privately provided. Do you want all of that to be provided by the state?


Since 1948 we have had doctors who were private contractors and most of


our pharmaceuticals were purchased in the private sector. I am not


seeking to alter that dispensation, I am trying to say that there is a


concern about more contracts going to the private sector, and what


happens to the data and the privacy of data we do give that to private


sector organisations? Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell seem to be


concerned that the drugs the NHS uses comes from the private sector.


Are you? We have always purchased some from the private sector. The


state does not make drugs in this country. They want to bear down on


the costs of our drugs bill and use more generics, which has been done


in other parts of Europe. Do you object, pig farmer spends ?4 billion


on research and develop an investment. Internationally they are


more and more than anything new drugs by purchasing smaller


companies rather than investing. They still spend ?4 billion a year


on research and element in this country. Is that a bad thing? It is


not in itself, but we have to look at the profit margins on some of


those drugs. Despite the level of investment, we believe that the


ongoing profit margins that these companies put is not acceptable.


Junior doctors, and look like they are calling off their strike. Are


they right to do so? It is not for me to say. I am asking for an


opinion. They have concluded that the issues of patient safety were


overriding, and they were always going to put that first. They are


the doctors, if they say that safety is compromised, they are doing the


right thing. Now, they've been "talking


about a revolution" here at the conference centre


in Liverpool, and tired of telling left-wing activists to "get back


to where you once belonged". Some Labour MPs have taken


the "long and winding road" to the the city's Cavern Club,


where Adam joined them. The Beatles, Cilla Black and dumber


for one afternoon only, the former shadow culture secretary plays the


cavern club. He blagged a spot on the sacred stage thanks to a Labour


member of the Lords, who is a Scouser. Let's hear some music.


Guess what, he is really good. # Take these broken


wings and learn to fly In the audience, some bemused


tourists, a smattering of MPs, and Labour's Chief Whip. It was


brilliant. Is he allowed time off to do this? Special dispensation for


Michael, obviously! He has been a vocal critic of Jeremy Corbyn. He is


not in the Shadow Cabinet anymore. But this was all about the music.


Thank you. Well, mostly. This is more fun than the conference!


And we're joined by the former shadow Culture Secretary


Michael Dugher, who you saw performing there.


What Beatles lyrics define the state of the Labour Party? For one or two


of the people screaming at us, back in the USSR! That was too easy! I


would like to think come together would be good. I don't want to spoil


the party. Which songs did you choose yesterday? Get Back. What not


a political song? A Beatles song! I would like to hear you play. Play is


out. # Blackbird singing


in the dead of night # Take these broken


wings and learn to fly # You were only waiting


for this moment to arrive # Blackbird singing


in the dead of night # Take these broken


wings and learn to fly # You were only waiting


for this moment to arrive # Into the light of


the dark black night # Blackbird singing


in the dead of night # Take these broken


wings and learn to fly


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