27/09/2016: Labour Party Conference Daily Politics


27/09/2016: Labour Party Conference

Andrew Neil is joined by Diane Abbott and Baroness Chakrabarti at the Labour Party conference, plus a review of the first US presidential election debate.


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Transcript


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Welcome to Liverpool, and day three of the Labour Party conference,

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where there's been angry debate this morning as left and right

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wrestle for control of the party's ruling executive.

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Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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The Labour Party's official policy is to renew Trident, so why

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was their Shadow Defence Secretary's attempt to say the policy wouldn't

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90 million people are said to have watched the debate.

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No, I'm not talking about the one here in Liverpool

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We'll ask who won the first big televised debate of the US

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presidential campaign, Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump?

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Anti-Semitism in the Labour Party is not a big problem.

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That was the conclusion of an independent

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report by human-rights lawyer Shami Chakrabarti.

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Was a Labour seat in the House of Lords her reward?

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This is more fun than the conference!

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And, don't like the old tunes they're playing at conference?

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How some rebel Labour MPs got a ticket to ride to perform

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All that in the next hour from the conference centre

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And enjoying the fabulous Liverpudlian hospitality

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are the journalists Polly Toynbee and Steve Richards.

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Welcome back. What struck me in the past 24 hours, John MacDonald made

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the Shadow Chancellor speech designed to get the party onto big

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policy issues. Overshadowed by the row over Clive Lewis on Trident.

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This morning there will be major announcements on child care,

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education, more issues for the Labour Party, but they got worked up

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on the composition of the National Executive Committee. Discuss. That

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is what is really going on. The fight possibly to the death for the

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heart of the Labour Party for controlling, the NEC controls the

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rules. If the Corbyn side of the party can get control of it, which

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they have not, they one vote short, they can change the rules in future

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which means in future the party will always be captured by their side of

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the party. The other side of the party is fighting hard to prevent

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rule changes. Let's give viewers a flavour of the debate this morning.

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We need to be debating policies to put them into place,

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to take them forward and make us look like a Labour government.

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I shouldn't have to to support what is essentially

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This party should make its rules at its conference, one by one,

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We have the eyes of the country on us here.

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And a country that is desperately looking for solutions

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And it makes Labour look pretty self-indulgent and quite frankly

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dysfunctional if all we're doing is having a debate about even

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Colleagues, to take a show of hands to see...

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Listen, we're going to go to a show of hands.

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Can I see all those in favour of accepting the report.

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That was a flavour, there was a lot of passion but not passion about

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being against Grumman schools -- Grammar schools, how we defend the

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nation, how we improve social care, it was about how you choose the NEC.

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Takes you back to the 70s and 80s when these things happened all the

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time at conferences. Incidentally in periods when they won elections as

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well as losing them so it does not automatically mean they are doomed

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because they are having these things. The reality is a power

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struggle so these things come to matter. The policy-making bodies

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will influence the future direction of the party, so although it seems

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parochial and insular, it will have consequences, as they used to do in

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the 70s and 80s when that bodied ruled everything. Tony Benn became

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chair of the home policy committee on the NEC. No one outside would pay

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attention. It was a massive power grab in the 70s and 80s. That is why

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these things matter. I don't think it means in itself this deeply

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dysfunctional party is doomed, because they were dysfunctional in

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the 60s and 70s and still won occasionally. We understand the

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centrists won the motion and that's the idea is a Scottish and Welsh

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representative will go on the NEC, they will be appointed, more likely

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not to be Corbynistas. It seems Mr Corbyn's movement has not yet got

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control of the NEC. Not yet, but it is not clear because what will come

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up at the next meeting will be the idea there should be a special

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conference called about rule changes, in which they will hope,

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particularly if it is a vote among members, that they can change the

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rules in ways... The most important one, could they changed the rules

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for triggering the selections of MPs? If they change that rule and

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make it easier, a vote of the local party instead of the complicated

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system now in which various groups get a vote, it would make it easier

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to sweep away. It is not clear because the trade unions on the NEC,

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some go this way on one subject and that way on another Anne -- and on

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any particular issue it is difficult to call. I read the unions were the

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key to this. The swing vote on the NEC and they could determine the

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direction of policy, which is interesting to know, but also

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interesting that in 2016, the unions would be the pivotal force. It is

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one of the things so dated about the Labour Party and has been for a long

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time. They are a pivotal force and might still be a pivotal force if

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for example as I think is likely that the Conservative government

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will be in crisis over Brexit within 18 months. If the Labour Party is

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25% then, I think some of those unions might have a pivotal role in

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changing things perhaps at the top of the Labour Party. There will be

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space at some point in this Parliament. The rebels, so-called,

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made a big mistake in going for him this summer. You agree with that? It

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did not work, the -- it must've been a mistake. There is much blame

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floating about amongst the non-Corbynistas. They are not

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coherent and cannot decide whether they would or would not go back into

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the cabinet. Should they insist he lets them elect themselves to go

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back in the Shadow Cabinet. Corbyn has given nothing away since his

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victory. He has not been magnanimous. It is interesting to

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see. Thanks for getting proceedings off live today.

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There's been a lot of talk about party unity at this

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conference, but it was looking in rather short supply yesterday

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when the Shadow Defence Secretary Clive Lewis apparently had part

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of his speech relating to Trident rewritten at the last minute

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by an aide to Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn.

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Mr Corbyn, of course, doesn't want to see

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the nuclear-weapons system replaced, or renewed

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Clive Lewis was thought to be planning to tell conference

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that he wouldn't seek to end the party's commitment

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to renewing Trident, because it was crucial

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"I am sceptical about Trident renewal, but I am clear

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that our party has a policy for Trident renewal."

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But while waiting on stage before his speech, he reportedly found out

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was "And I wouldn't seek to change it,"

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and had been removed from the autocue at the last

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by Jeremy Corbyn's director of communications Seamus Milne.

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Mr Lewis was not happy, appearing visibly perturbed

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Reports circulated that he vented his frustration

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afterwards by punching a wall and throwing his phone.

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Later, however, he seemed to confirm his original commitment,

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telling the Guardian, "I won't be coming back

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to conference between now and the next election

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to try to undo the policy we have on Trident."

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Well, as you may remember, Clive Lewis was due to appear

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on this programme yesterday after his speech, but we were told

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he couldn't appear as he went to the leader's office.

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We don't know if he was there to discuss the disagreement over

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But he was keen to downplay the whole

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episode as he left the conference centre yesterday.

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Every speech is a collective process and I think you guys...

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You guys are trying to trip me up and upset me.

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I'm really happy where we are and I think...

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Was your autocue changed at the last minute?

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My speech is a collaborative process.

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That's all I can say and all I will say.

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I'm pleased my speech is out of the way, and,

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you know what, I just want to get on with the conference.

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Well, we asked to speak to Clive Lewis again today,

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but we so far haven't been able to reach him.

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Maybe when his mobile phone hit the wall it screwed it up and it is not

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working. But I'm pleased to say

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we are joined now by his Shadow Cabinet colleague,

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the Shadow Minister Welcome. You have heard what we

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think happens. What do you think happened? I don't know, that is the

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most comprehensive report I have seen or heard so far into what went

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on. I think he delivered a good speech, he is an eloquent public

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Speaker. He stated the policy of the party is to maintain a independent

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nuclear deterrent, which was voted on by party conference over the

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years and went into the manifesto. I don't know what has gone on behind

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the scenes with the press secretary apparently changing things, I have

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no idea. I know Clive stated the position of the party yesterday. The

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words I think -- we think were removed, we can put them on the

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autocue. The words, I am clear our party has a policy for Trident

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renewal and I would not seek to change it. We think these are the

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lines. Would you be prepared to say these lines? I would be prepared to

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say it is clear our party has a policy for Trident renewal and I

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would not seek to change it? Yes. Members of the body, including

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affiliated members, are affected by this decision and I understand the

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future of submarines has to be debated across the party. I think

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that is a sensible approach. Although Mr Lewis has doubts about

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Trident renewal he recognises it is party policy and that he does not

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have any stomach for changing it this side of the next election, why

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would he not say these words? I don't know if they were in the

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original draft. It is speculation they were in the original draft.

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Jeremy Corbyn, our leader, and when Emily was Shadow Defence Secretary,

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launched a review into the future of the nuclear deterrent. My

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understanding is we will discuss these matters across the party,

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involving members and unions who represent the workforces involved

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and we will come to a decision but at the moment the policy is to

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maintain Trident. Do we know when the defence review will be

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published? The interim report was published a couple of months ago and

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there are discussions of the policy. We have to have a national policy

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forum. No doubt we will come to future conferences with a new

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position. It is possible, working on the assumption of 2020 election, the

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policy could change by that election? Is possible. I think it

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unlikely, but it is possible. You seem doubtful. It is clear Mr Corbyn

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wants to change the policy, can we agree on that? Jeremy is a lifetime

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unilateralist. I think the party can unite around the position of

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multilateralist. I think we can find consensus. We represent thousands of

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workers who make the submarines at Barrow and elsewhere who are

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represented by the GMB and Unite and they have to be part of the policy

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discussions on these matters, as well.

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Are you not dancing with shadows here? And taking the British people

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for a ride? Jeremy Corbyn has said that if Prime Minister he would

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never use the nuclear deterrent, at all. So whether the party is in

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favour or not is irrelevant. If the Prime Minister is not going to use

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it, it is a waste of money. But we will get a position for our

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manifesto and go to the country with it. Whatever the position, if your

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leader says that the will not give any instructions under any

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circumstances for the deterrent to be used, it is irrelevant. It is

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not, because we want to implement our policies and when we win the

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election they will have a Labour Cabinet who will want to safeguard

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the security of the country. But the Cabinet does not the side, it is the

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Prime Minister's job. Whoever becomes Prime Minister, they have to

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give written instructions to the submarine commanders, it is done in

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a special way, locked in a safe, for use in the eventuality of an

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Armageddon situation. If he does not do that, the nuclear deterrent would

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have no idea in a Jeremy Corbyn Government how to respond. These

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things would have to be discussed. I believe that the Labour Party will

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not take any risks with the security of this nation. That is our

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priority. I am sorry to harp on, I don't understand how you can say

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that and be backing a leader who says that he believes that we should

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unilaterally scrap the deterrent, and even if we still have it when he

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comes to power, he would never use it. Jeremy is a believer in the

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democracy of the party. If the party arrives at the position to maintain

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the deterrent, he would not want to be out of tune with the decisions of

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sovereign conference. Why are you staying in the Shadow Cabinet? The

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Labour Party is elected -- has elected Jeremy is the leader, we

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have a duty to scrutinise the Tories. I believe some of us need to

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be on the front bench doing that, and I believe we have to get Labour

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elected, because the Tory party are making a number of fundamental

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mistakes which need to -- which we be to exploit. You say it gives you

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and your side of the party a seat on the NEC? What is my side of the

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party? Clearly not Jeremy Corbyn's. My side is the unity side. I don't

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believe Jeremy Corbyn is the enemy of any party member, nor do I

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believe that MPs who get pointed to on Twitter are enemies. The Tories

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are the opponents. What has Jeremy Corbyn done to reach out to you? To

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me personally? To your side of the party. I believe we should now look

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at some form of elected Shadow Cabinet, not the whole Shadow

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Cabinet, but an element of it, and it would encourage colleagues to

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serve on the front page. Do you believe Jeremy Corbyn would like to

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go down that road? He is listening to people, his team are in

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discussions with the Chief Whip and the chair of the parliamentary

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party. Let me come back to my previous question. What has Jeremy

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Corbyn done to reach out to you since he got re-elected? He says he

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wants to pull people together and unite people and get everybody

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working together. Every politician says that. No party leader says, I

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want to does unite by party. He is engaging in discussions. His team

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are engaging in discussions. His supporters stopped the appointment

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of the Scottish Labour leader and the Welsh Labour leader onto the

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NEC. That was not reaching out to you. I was in favour of the Scottish

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and Welsh leaders coming on the NEC. I have been coming to NEC meetings

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for 12 years,... You are looking well on it! I have never known so

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much interest in the NEC! I have wanted the Scottish and Welsh

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leaders on the NEC. We have the leaders of the European Parliament

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three party and the local Government, so we should have the

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leaders of the Scottish and Welsh parties. Why was there such emotion

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about this this morning, trying to stop that? I don't know. I don't see

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why it is such an unreasonable thing that they are represented on the

:20:23.:20:28.

NEC. We had some interesting NEC meetings this week, and eight and a

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half hour one last week, lots of good discussions and debate, very

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comradely. It is a sensible move. Is there not a danger that those who

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would remove Jeremy Corbyn lost quite spectacularly, it was not the

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best organised of attempted coups, but having lost out, I do not now

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trying to win the process by all of the emphasis on the NEC? Nobody

:20:55.:20:59.

outside this hall, or even some people inside the hall, listening to

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you. Even in the city of Liverpool, one of our great socialist cities,

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99% of Liverpudlians could not give a monkeys of. I cannot move around

:21:12.:21:18.

this without a journalist stopping me to ask me about the NEC. You

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debated it this morning, we are following your agenda. Not our own

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agenda. We always have rule changes on the Tuesday morning of the

:21:31.:21:32.

conference, they don't normally get this much interest. Are you

:21:33.:21:40.

comfortable that the Shadow Chancellor's economic programme

:21:41.:21:45.

would seem to be involving the borrowing of perhaps up to ?500

:21:46.:21:51.

billion? People want to spread that over a number of years. I do believe

:21:52.:21:57.

we need to make an argument about investment in the economy. When

:21:58.:22:01.

interest rates are so low, there is room for extra borrowing, so long as

:22:02.:22:05.

it is spent on infrastructure. It is not 500,000,000,001 go. It would

:22:06.:22:14.

take our national debt to ?2 trillion. It is already 1.6 trillion

:22:15.:22:19.

under George Osborne and now Philip Hammond. Are you comfortable that it

:22:20.:22:27.

could soar to over 2 trillion? We will see what projections will be

:22:28.:22:31.

when we have seen the books. Philip Hammond has not told us what his

:22:32.:22:34.

fiscal rules will be, when he will try to reach a surplus. We have to

:22:35.:22:38.

look forward to the Autumn Statement, then we will be clearer.

:22:39.:22:44.

You are the second Labour MP in 24 hours that has answered my question

:22:45.:22:47.

about John McDonnell by answering about Philip Hammond. Is this a

:22:48.:22:52.

trend? It is what politicians do, you know that. I do, to my cost! I

:22:53.:23:00.

am only 35, but this is how I look! 12 NEC years, you are as young as

:23:01.:23:03.

can the! 37. Not a day over 25! Now, it may have been

:23:04.:23:09.

the most-watched political No, I don't mean

:23:10.:23:11.

yesterday's Daily Politics. Or even Diane Abbott's speech

:23:12.:23:13.

to conference this morning, But the first televised debate last

:23:14.:23:15.

night between Presidential candidates Donald Trump

:23:16.:23:19.

and Hillary Clinton. Some of us here in Liverpool,

:23:20.:23:23.

me included, were hardy enough, you might say foolish enough,

:23:24.:23:33.

to stay up until the If you didn't, here's a flavour

:23:34.:23:35.

of the exchanges between the two candidates, who appear to be

:23:36.:23:43.

in a dead heat in the race We think at least 90 million people

:23:44.:23:56.

in America watched this debate, the biggest televised political event in

:23:57.:24:01.

history. Two candidates who appear to be in a dead heat.

:24:02.:24:03.

His cavalier attitude about nuclear weapons is so deeply troubling.

:24:04.:24:09.

That is the number one threat we face in the world and it becomes

:24:10.:24:12.

particularly threatening if terrorists ever get their hands

:24:13.:24:17.

So a man who can be provoked by a tweet should not

:24:18.:24:22.

have his fingers anywhere near the nuclear codes,

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as far as I think anyone with any sense about should be concerned.

:24:26.:24:31.

That's getting a bit old, I must say.

:24:32.:24:33.

Secretary Clinton doesn't want to use a couple of words

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If we don't have it, we're not going to have a country.

:24:42.:24:48.

By the end of this evening, I'm going to be

:24:49.:24:50.

blamed for everything that's ever happened.

:24:51.:24:52.

Just join the debate by saying more crazy things.

:24:53.:25:01.

She tells you how to fight Isis on her website.

:25:02.:25:10.

I don't think General Douglas MacArthur would

:25:11.:25:11.

At least I have a plan to fight Isis.

:25:12.:25:19.

No, no, you're telling the enemy everything you want to do.

:25:20.:25:22.

See, you're telling the enemy everything you want to do.

:25:23.:25:25.

No wonder you've been fighting Isis your entire adult life.

:25:26.:25:32.

Please, the fact checkers, go to work.

:25:33.:25:34.

I was the one that got him to produce the birth certificate

:25:35.:25:38.

Now everybody in mainstream is going to say, that's not true.

:25:39.:25:47.

He has really started his political activity based on this racist lie

:25:48.:25:55.

that our first black president was not an American citizen.

:25:56.:26:01.

There is absolutely no evidence for it, but he persisted.

:26:02.:26:04.

I think my strongest asset, maybe by far, is my temperament.

:26:05.:26:11.

The other day, behind the blue screen, I don't know

:26:12.:26:22.

who you were talking to, Secretary Clinton,

:26:23.:26:24.

I said, there's a person with a temperament

:26:25.:26:30.

OK! The consensus seems to be that Hillary Clinton got the better of

:26:31.:26:54.

Donald Trump. But not by much. And perhaps not by enough to be a game

:26:55.:27:00.

changer. You can decide for yourself, you can watch the full

:27:01.:27:05.

debate on BBC Parliament at 12:45pm. Not want to go. We prefer if you

:27:06.:27:11.

wait until the end of the Daily Politics before you switch over. Not

:27:12.:27:14.

much happened in the first 15 minutes!

:27:15.:27:20.

From our studio in Brussels, we're joined by former Ukip

:27:21.:27:22.

We're joined now by the Labour MP Jamie Reed.

:27:23.:27:26.

He's a keen supporter of Hillary Clinton and was

:27:27.:27:28.

Donald Trump did not quite sparkle enough last night.

:27:29.:27:42.

It was unsurprising, Hillary Clinton is a professional politician,

:27:43.:27:50.

trained, scripted, good boys, but very little warmth. Donald Trump,

:27:51.:27:56.

the nonprofessional politician, not least to this format, did in the

:27:57.:28:05.

early part, the first third, on the economic, positive stuff. Overall,

:28:06.:28:11.

the commentator will say it was Hillary Clinton that edged it

:28:12.:28:15.

marginally, the real question is, did that debate last night change

:28:16.:28:19.

the minds of any undecided voters? I would say no. I would say in ten

:28:20.:28:25.

years, 20 years, we will not remember a single exchange from last

:28:26.:28:30.

night, and we have got Louisiana and Vegas to come. How do you think

:28:31.:28:35.

Hillary Clinton did? She was excellent. Going into the debate she

:28:36.:28:44.

was clearly characterised as being almost sterile, difficult to like,

:28:45.:28:49.

robotic, and she came across very warm and confident and, even, fairly

:28:50.:28:53.

sassy. These e-mails continue to haunt her. Donald Trump, when they

:28:54.:28:59.

were arguing about his tax return, he threw the e-mails. He said, I

:29:00.:29:05.

will show you my tax return if you show me the deleted e-mails. They

:29:06.:29:10.

still haunt her, that is the nature of American politics, both

:29:11.:29:14.

candidates have long histories in and outside politics. In terms of

:29:15.:29:20.

shifting the needle, I think Donald Trump's tax returns have the

:29:21.:29:23.

potential to shift it far more than any e-mails. It was suggested last

:29:24.:29:33.

night in the debate, which was a delicious prospect, he did not deny

:29:34.:29:38.

that the reason he is not publishing his tax returns is he does not pay

:29:39.:29:43.

any federal income tax, he may be so overloaded with debt, it is all

:29:44.:29:48.

packed that the he not pay any. He did not deny that, he just said, it

:29:49.:29:55.

would make him smart. That is not credible for a multi billionaire to

:29:56.:29:56.

pay no federal tax, is it? As you say, a different tax system

:29:57.:30:06.

and culture, but you are right, it is a question, I think, that he will

:30:07.:30:13.

need to answer. I suggest he needs to point out, aged 70, how much tax

:30:14.:30:18.

he has paid over the last 50 years, not what he paid last year.

:30:19.:30:23.

Companies have up years and down years, borrowings. He needs to

:30:24.:30:28.

answer back and that was the 1.I thought Hillary made that put him on

:30:29.:30:33.

the back foot, as indeed the e-mail question she can't answer. I think

:30:34.:30:36.

he needs to come up with an answer to say he has paid his fair share

:30:37.:30:49.

over half a century. You are the only British politician I think who

:30:50.:30:52.

has shared a platform with him in this run. Are you telling him today

:30:53.:30:54.

he should publish some tax returns? My advice is he needs to deal with

:30:55.:31:02.

the question Hillary put. He has said clearly, I will show you mine

:31:03.:31:09.

if you will show me yours. She has already published her tax returns.

:31:10.:31:16.

Both her and Bill Clinton have published their tax returns. The

:31:17.:31:20.

point made was that there is still this incredible secrecy around these

:31:21.:31:25.

e-mails. These arguments will go back and forth. What is more

:31:26.:31:30.

interesting is when we get to Louisiana, the debate will move on

:31:31.:31:34.

to immigration, open borders and terrorism. I think that, either way,

:31:35.:31:40.

will probably be the game changer for this presidential election.

:31:41.:31:46.

Perhaps Mrs Clinton's biggest problem is that in an America, you

:31:47.:31:54.

were in Mississippi, you will know there is an antiestablishment mood

:31:55.:31:59.

in America. There is also an anti-politician mood in America.

:32:00.:32:04.

There is an anti-continuity and Mrs Clinton represents the

:32:05.:32:09.

establishment, the political establishment and continuity. I

:32:10.:32:13.

think that is true and I would expect to see those charges levelled

:32:14.:32:19.

against the Clinton campaign until polling day. Where Nigel is wrong

:32:20.:32:22.

and it feeds into the point you are making, it is the thing for the

:32:23.:32:31.

candidates to publish their tax return. In the midst of the worst

:32:32.:32:35.

crash since the great depression, that it is all right for the US

:32:36.:32:40.

presidential candidate not to pay taxes in that period, that destroys

:32:41.:32:45.

charges about not wanting a continuity candidate because that

:32:46.:32:48.

demonstrates a cavalier attitude towards public office. Did you

:32:49.:32:53.

believe Donald Trump, Nigel Farage, when he claimed that he had what is

:32:54.:33:01.

known as the controversy, the argument over whether President

:33:02.:33:05.

Obama was actually born in America. I say argument but the facts are

:33:06.:33:11.

pretty much overwhelming, if not unanimous that of course he was born

:33:12.:33:17.

in America. Mr Trump kept it alive for five years. I have seen endless

:33:18.:33:25.

video of him questioning whether Mr Obama was worried and was that a

:33:26.:33:28.

dangerous thing to do, not just because of the absence of evidence,

:33:29.:33:33.

but because this was the first black president and to question whether he

:33:34.:33:37.

was born in the US was as Mrs Clinton said, effectively racist, a

:33:38.:33:45.

racist line of attack. When it comes to racist lines of attack against

:33:46.:33:49.

President Obama I suggest people look at Hillary's campaign team and

:33:50.:33:55.

what was said in 2008. This becomes a score draw in the end. Hold on,

:33:56.:34:00.

Hillary Clinton did not get involved in that. Some of her campaign team

:34:01.:34:06.

may have. She never indoor Stitt, she never used it and never carried

:34:07.:34:10.

on for the next five years saying they was still an argument about

:34:11.:34:18.

this. As I have learned myself, if employees or people in your team say

:34:19.:34:20.

and do inappropriate things, you have to act and there was no

:34:21.:34:25.

evidence she did. On the birth stuff, clearly Donald Trump was

:34:26.:34:29.

wrong and so the dangerous thing would be to maintain that line but

:34:30.:34:34.

he has changed his position on it, sensibly. These arguments about the

:34:35.:34:40.

personal failings of either candidate will go back and forth.

:34:41.:34:45.

This is about, do you want to vote for the establishment, business as

:34:46.:34:49.

usual, or do you want to vote for change? That is what this election

:34:50.:34:53.

is about and I do not think last night moved us forward on that.

:34:54.:35:02.

After last night, do you think Mr Trump will still win? Mr Trump's

:35:03.:35:08.

voters are like Brexit voters, they believe in it, have enthusiastic and

:35:09.:35:13.

passion. He is the one with momentum, I still think he will win.

:35:14.:35:18.

I think when we next see Nigel trying to make a comeback he will

:35:19.:35:23.

have to explain why he has tried to defend Donald Trump's racism. It

:35:24.:35:28.

will be a tight contest. I expect Hillary to win but it could be

:35:29.:35:31.

tighter than people expect. You both expect your person to win. I heard

:35:32.:35:39.

Nigel Farage saying that Donald Trump had the backing of momentum!

:35:40.:35:45.

Who knew that? Thanks to you both. We will get to speak to you again as

:35:46.:35:47.

the US campaign goes on. Does the Labour Party have a problem

:35:48.:35:48.

with anti-Semitism? Well, what was billed

:35:49.:35:51.

as an independent report on the issue concluded

:35:52.:35:52.

that it was not "overrun" And at the fringe event

:35:53.:35:55.

run by Jeremy Corbyn campaign group Momentum,

:35:56.:35:58.

it was claimed that the problem has been "exaggerated

:35:59.:36:01.

for political purposes." It's a subject that's been debated

:36:02.:36:04.

at conference this morning. Let's have listen to Mike Katz

:36:05.:36:08.

from the Jewish Labour group. I don't want to be here,

:36:09.:36:15.

because I wish there hadn't been an upsurge in anti-Semitic,

:36:16.:36:20.

Islamophobic, misogynistic and homophobic vile hate

:36:21.:36:22.

speech in our party. Against this backdrop

:36:23.:36:30.

is there any wonder, conference, that support for Labour amongst

:36:31.:36:34.

British Jews is said The party of Manny Shinwell,

:36:35.:36:36.

the party that has done more than any other to promote

:36:37.:36:44.

tolerance and equality. The party to which the Jewish Labour

:36:45.:36:49.

movement has been affiliated since 1920 is not seen

:36:50.:36:53.

as a welcoming home for Jews. Are you disappointed your enquiry

:36:54.:37:09.

has not closed down this issue? I think my findings have yet to be

:37:10.:37:15.

fully implemented that I was delighted to hear a few days ago the

:37:16.:37:19.

NEC of the Labour Party has adopted certain aspects of my report. The

:37:20.:37:24.

recommendations of language and conduct and stereotyping. There are

:37:25.:37:31.

procedural recommendations that have yet to be implemented. Not least

:37:32.:37:36.

greater resource for discipline and an in-house counsel. At the

:37:37.:37:40.

conference leaflets have been handed out calling for the expulsion of the

:37:41.:37:45.

Jewish labour movement. A Labour peer has resigned over anti-Semitism

:37:46.:37:49.

and a Jewish MP has had to employ personal security to come to

:37:50.:37:54.

conference. I would suggest it is a big problem. There are issues and we

:37:55.:37:59.

cannot run away from them. They are serious. They are serious issues and

:38:00.:38:05.

more needs to be done but I was heartened to hear a re-elected

:38:06.:38:08.

Jeremy Corbyn uses now greater mandate to be clearer than he has

:38:09.:38:13.

ever been with people across the party, including people who claim to

:38:14.:38:17.

be his friends. He has been crystal clear this will not be tolerated and

:38:18.:38:20.

I think that is incredibly important. No part of our society is

:38:21.:38:26.

immune from anti-Semitism and from racism as we saw in the referendum

:38:27.:38:31.

campaign. It seems to be prevalent in the Labour Party. I am not going

:38:32.:38:36.

to get into the competition of virtue and victimhood. In British

:38:37.:38:43.

politics we lost a bright MP in that toxic summer. This is what you and

:38:44.:38:47.

Jeremy Corbyn have done, you tried to generalise the anti-rather than

:38:48.:38:58.

sticking with the issues. A Jewish peer left because he described your

:38:59.:39:05.

report as an anaemic whitewash. I regret that and I am sorry to see

:39:06.:39:11.

him go. I would urge people to read my report. I have read the report. I

:39:12.:39:17.

do not think there is any whitewash. I said difficult things to the

:39:18.:39:22.

party. I was not able to name and shame individuals still pending

:39:23.:39:27.

discipline. I understand that, but have you spoken to parry Mitchell? I

:39:28.:39:34.

have not spoken to Lord Mitchell. Would it be worthwhile to reassure

:39:35.:39:38.

him? I spoke to him in the run-up to the report and I know his concerns

:39:39.:39:44.

and when I am back in London and Westminster I will try to speak to

:39:45.:39:47.

him again. The Jewish board of deputies of the most important

:39:48.:39:52.

Jewish organisation, describing the report as a white wash for peerages

:39:53.:40:00.

scandal. A particular person described it in that way. I would

:40:01.:40:05.

say no community is a monolith and know one person speaks on behalf of

:40:06.:40:10.

an entire community and I had a lot of solidarity and gratitude and

:40:11.:40:14.

welcome and support from other members of that community. A leading

:40:15.:40:18.

Jewish charities said the report was a shameless kick in the teeth. I am

:40:19.:40:25.

sorry that not everyone agrees with everything I wrote. What leading

:40:26.:40:29.

Jewish organisations have supported your report? I have had support from

:40:30.:40:34.

a number of people in the Jewish labour movement, from rabbis. I did

:40:35.:40:41.

not ask about individuals, I asked what leading Jewish organisation has

:40:42.:40:46.

supported the report? I wrote the report mostly for Jewish members of

:40:47.:40:51.

the Labour Party who felt threatened and unwelcome and interestingly they

:40:52.:40:57.

cross the political spectrum. But what may be leading Jewish

:40:58.:41:01.

institution has backed your support? I am not doing this for institutions

:41:02.:41:07.

but for people. I know what it is like to receive racism and I have

:41:08.:41:11.

been aware of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party and in the country all

:41:12.:41:15.

my life and that motivated me to do this work and it is what motivates

:41:16.:41:19.

me still. Why did you join the Labour Party to do this report? We

:41:20.:41:24.

have known you have had Labour leanings, but for the wider public

:41:25.:41:30.

that wanted to be reassured this was an independent report, why join the

:41:31.:41:34.

party to do the report? Because in my view, if you want to achieve

:41:35.:41:39.

change and tell people difficult things about themselves and about

:41:40.:41:44.

their party, it is better to do that honestly from within. People respect

:41:45.:41:52.

you as an independent voice. That is left-leaning but not in anybody's

:41:53.:41:57.

pocket. I am not doing anybody's pocket. I might have my suspicions

:41:58.:42:03.

about your leanings as a broadcaster but I do not doubt you are

:42:04.:42:07.

independent and I am independent. People respected you as independent.

:42:08.:42:11.

Would you not undermine that by joining the party? This was a report

:42:12.:42:17.

for the party, about saying to fellow Labour members we have to

:42:18.:42:21.

look at ourselves in the mirror. This party instituted every piece of

:42:22.:42:25.

equality legislation this country has known and we have to live up to

:42:26.:42:30.

those values ourselves. Would it not have garnered more weight in the

:42:31.:42:34.

country and among people in the Labour Party if it was seen to be

:42:35.:42:39.

done by an independent outsider? Parties often bring in independent

:42:40.:42:43.

outsiders to review processes, usually a lawyer and you are a

:42:44.:42:48.

lawyer. That is one point of view. But another, and mine, it is if you

:42:49.:42:53.

want to say hard truths to any family and want to tell people they

:42:54.:42:57.

are falling down on values, sometimes it is better to do that

:42:58.:43:02.

from within. A lot of people do not think you told hard truths. You had

:43:03.:43:06.

minor criticisms but not hard truths. I do not think it is a minor

:43:07.:43:12.

criticism to talk about epithets used within the party nor to talk

:43:13.:43:17.

about the way in which the Holocaust has been used in vain. People have

:43:18.:43:27.

used Nazi stereotypes and anti-Semitic stereotypes. It is in

:43:28.:43:31.

the report as his criticism of the disciplinary process and I hope and

:43:32.:43:35.

believe now this toxic summer and this civil war is coming to an end.

:43:36.:43:40.

People from all strands of the party will get behind the report and we

:43:41.:43:44.

can do better. When was the prospect of a peerage first discussed with

:43:45.:43:48.

you? I have dealt with all of these questions. Just indulge us. It is

:43:49.:43:55.

the first time we have had to chat. The report was published on June 30.

:43:56.:44:00.

When was the prospect of a peerage first discussed, not the offer, the

:44:01.:44:07.

prospect? After the report. No discussion beforehand? It was after

:44:08.:44:14.

my report. It was part of the Prime Minister's resignation honours, I

:44:15.:44:18.

understand. There was no discussion of a peerage with anyone in the

:44:19.:44:23.

Labour Party before the report was published? I have been approached

:44:24.:44:30.

for peerages and third... Will you let me finish the answer to your

:44:31.:44:39.

question? I have been approached. I have been approached by senior

:44:40.:44:43.

politicians. I am talking about this peerage. This peerage, the only one

:44:44.:44:49.

I have ever owned, was offered to be after the report as part of the

:44:50.:44:54.

Prime Minister's resignation list. Was it discussed before the report

:44:55.:44:58.

with anybody in the Labour Party? And when were you offered the

:44:59.:45:03.

peerage, when did Mr Corbyn or his office suggest they put you up for

:45:04.:45:10.

that? It was around the time of the Prime Minister's final PMQs. I

:45:11.:45:14.

believe that is when the two men had the conversation. And you had no

:45:15.:45:17.

inkling he would be offered a peerage? I have heard all sorts of

:45:18.:45:24.

rumours and all sorts of people have suggested I entered Parliament as an

:45:25.:45:29.

MP, that I work for the party. Do different things. Because I joined

:45:30.:45:34.

the Labour Party. I have had these smears all summer. They are not

:45:35.:45:39.

smears, they factual questions. And I have answered. Would it clarify

:45:40.:45:45.

everything, a former head of Liberty and a in transparency, if you

:45:46.:45:49.

published your correspondence with the Labour Party and yourself on

:45:50.:45:55.

this matter? Yes, except there isn't any correspondence. Not at all? This

:45:56.:46:04.

was an offer that was made to me over the telephone by Mr Corbyn. He

:46:05.:46:11.

made it first? He made it over the telephone personally and there might

:46:12.:46:14.

be people in his office who have notes of that.

:46:15.:46:18.

Would you be interested in serving in the Shadow Cabinet? It would be

:46:19.:46:26.

completely presumptuous of me to be making job applications on national

:46:27.:46:32.

television. I was not asking for that, but what I am saying is, if

:46:33.:46:37.

asked, would you be interested? It is not appropriate for me to do

:46:38.:46:43.

this. Issues around the composition of the Shadow Cabinet are incredibly

:46:44.:46:46.

sensitive at a time when the party needs to unite behind Jeremy Corbyn.

:46:47.:46:55.

That is the priority. There are 16 vacancies. He needs some fresh

:46:56.:47:01.

talent, everybody would agree that you can be filed under fresh talent.

:47:02.:47:06.

Would it not be part of the Unity Project to join his team? I will try

:47:07.:47:11.

and help this party and help the Unity Project. I am trying to now by

:47:12.:47:18.

sitting here. I will do everything I can to be part of the solution and

:47:19.:47:22.

not part of the problem, but the best way for me to help is for other

:47:23.:47:23.

people to decide. Now, a proposal to have

:47:24.:47:28.

a debate on Brexit here But we're helpful folk

:47:29.:47:31.

here at the Daily Politics and wanted to allow delegates

:47:32.:47:35.

to have their say. So what better way to do

:47:36.:47:37.

that than to get Adam They are not having this debate on

:47:38.:47:47.

the conference hall, so let's have it here. Brexit, embrace it or fight

:47:48.:47:55.

it? The people have spoken, 52%, it would not be democratic to deny

:47:56.:48:01.

them. I would say embrace it. Scotland has two accept their result

:48:02.:48:04.

in 2014, we have to accept our result in 2016. Embrace it or fight

:48:05.:48:14.

it? I have gone for the wrong box! We have to be careful what the terms

:48:15.:48:18.

are, but absolutely embrace it, because it was democratic. What does

:48:19.:48:22.

your hair look like when you wake up in the morning? It is all over the

:48:23.:48:28.

place on it is a wonder to behold! Thank you. Fight it. We should have

:48:29.:48:41.

another vote. People were lied to. The man himself. That is what I

:48:42.:48:47.

tagged it as when I posted it on Facebook. 30 likes so far. Neither.

:48:48.:48:56.

Pretend it does not exist? I would like to fight it, but we have to

:48:57.:49:00.

make the best of it. Somebody thought it was embrace IT! We all

:49:01.:49:06.

have to embrace IT! Can things turn out OK? If it was the Labour Party

:49:07.:49:13.

and Jeremy sorting it out, yes, but I would not trust the Tories. We

:49:14.:49:21.

don't have to take these top-level European commissioners' word, you

:49:22.:49:24.

can do your own thing. It is not working for working people.

:49:25.:49:29.

Everybody sees midday from their own doorstep. What does that mean? It is

:49:30.:49:37.

a French saying. You speak multiple languages? What is Spanish for this?

:49:38.:49:43.

And embrace is... Can I do this for the 10pm News one

:49:44.:50:00.

night? We can do it tomorrow! I thought I could do it. That's fine!

:50:01.:50:06.

The unscientific result, it is pretty close, but there are more

:50:07.:50:09.

embrace of fun fighters. And we're joined now by Shadow

:50:10.:50:12.

Health Secretary Diane Abbott, You told a fringe meeting last night

:50:13.:50:25.

that people who voted for Brexit wanted to see less foreign looking

:50:26.:50:29.

people on their streets. Is that right? You get the sense there were

:50:30.:50:36.

a variety of reasons for voting for Brexit. One was the long-standing

:50:37.:50:41.

issue of sovereignty and Brussels bureaucracy. A lot of my colleagues

:50:42.:50:48.

have said that many of their voters voted for it because they were

:50:49.:50:52.

concerned about immigration. How many of the 17 million who voted for

:50:53.:50:55.

it wanted less foreign looking people? I can't say, but we have

:50:56.:51:01.

seen some horrible attacks both on Eastern European and people of any

:51:02.:51:05.

colour when you get far out of London. That speaks to even if it is

:51:06.:51:11.

a tiny minority people who are motivated badly. Have you

:51:12.:51:15.

established these attacks are related to Brexit? You did not have

:51:16.:51:22.

this flurry of attacks on polls and Eastern European. I have a friend on

:51:23.:51:26.

the south coast, she has had abuse shouted at her, she is a black

:51:27.:51:30.

woman, and they say, we voted for Brexit. I voted to remain. You were

:51:31.:51:42.

quite Brexit minded. I was Euro-sceptic about the economic and

:51:43.:51:46.

financial arrangements, but in the end remaining was the right thing to

:51:47.:51:51.

do. You are not one of the 17 million who want less foreign

:51:52.:51:54.

looking people around? I am not saying they were all motivated by

:51:55.:51:58.

that, but the evidence suggests that someone. The theme of your approach

:51:59.:52:03.

to the health service is to reverse the privatisation of the NHS. We are

:52:04.:52:12.

seeing a rise, a small rise, but steadily, in the amount of NHS

:52:13.:52:14.

funding going to Private organisations. What percentage?

:52:15.:52:21.

Think it is less than 10% at the moment. 6.5% of the whole budget. It

:52:22.:52:28.

is rising more slowly than it did under the last Labour Government.

:52:29.:52:32.

There is concerned about the fragmentation of the health service.

:52:33.:52:36.

And whether this will make it easier to privatise. You don't think it is

:52:37.:52:42.

the Government's policy at the moment to privatise it? The health

:52:43.:52:52.

and social act makes it easier, makes it easier for hospitals to

:52:53.:52:54.

have a higher proportion of being patient. What does it mean to

:52:55.:53:02.

nationalise the health service? Most GP practices are privately provided,

:53:03.:53:07.

they don't work for the state. Most hospital CT scanners are privately

:53:08.:53:11.

provided, buildings, beds, bandages and Lou Rawls, all medicines are

:53:12.:53:16.

privately provided. Do you want all of that to be provided by the state?

:53:17.:53:21.

Since 1948 we have had doctors who were private contractors and most of

:53:22.:53:26.

our pharmaceuticals were purchased in the private sector. I am not

:53:27.:53:32.

seeking to alter that dispensation, I am trying to say that there is a

:53:33.:53:36.

concern about more contracts going to the private sector, and what

:53:37.:53:40.

happens to the data and the privacy of data we do give that to private

:53:41.:53:45.

sector organisations? Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell seem to be

:53:46.:53:49.

concerned that the drugs the NHS uses comes from the private sector.

:53:50.:53:54.

Are you? We have always purchased some from the private sector. The

:53:55.:53:57.

state does not make drugs in this country. They want to bear down on

:53:58.:54:04.

the costs of our drugs bill and use more generics, which has been done

:54:05.:54:07.

in other parts of Europe. Do you object, pig farmer spends ?4 billion

:54:08.:54:12.

on research and develop an investment. Internationally they are

:54:13.:54:19.

more and more than anything new drugs by purchasing smaller

:54:20.:54:23.

companies rather than investing. They still spend ?4 billion a year

:54:24.:54:27.

on research and element in this country. Is that a bad thing? It is

:54:28.:54:32.

not in itself, but we have to look at the profit margins on some of

:54:33.:54:37.

those drugs. Despite the level of investment, we believe that the

:54:38.:54:41.

ongoing profit margins that these companies put is not acceptable.

:54:42.:54:47.

Junior doctors, and look like they are calling off their strike. Are

:54:48.:54:51.

they right to do so? It is not for me to say. I am asking for an

:54:52.:54:59.

opinion. They have concluded that the issues of patient safety were

:55:00.:55:03.

overriding, and they were always going to put that first. They are

:55:04.:55:09.

the doctors, if they say that safety is compromised, they are doing the

:55:10.:55:10.

right thing. Now, they've been "talking

:55:11.:55:13.

about a revolution" here at the conference centre

:55:14.:55:16.

in Liverpool, and tired of telling left-wing activists to "get back

:55:17.:55:19.

to where you once belonged". Some Labour MPs have taken

:55:20.:55:21.

the "long and winding road" to the the city's Cavern Club,

:55:22.:55:23.

where Adam joined them. The Beatles, Cilla Black and dumber

:55:24.:55:36.

for one afternoon only, the former shadow culture secretary plays the

:55:37.:55:43.

cavern club. He blagged a spot on the sacred stage thanks to a Labour

:55:44.:55:47.

member of the Lords, who is a Scouser. Let's hear some music.

:55:48.:55:50.

Guess what, he is really good. # Take these broken

:55:51.:56:08.

wings and learn to fly In the audience, some bemused

:56:09.:56:19.

tourists, a smattering of MPs, and Labour's Chief Whip. It was

:56:20.:56:25.

brilliant. Is he allowed time off to do this? Special dispensation for

:56:26.:56:35.

Michael, obviously! He has been a vocal critic of Jeremy Corbyn. He is

:56:36.:56:40.

not in the Shadow Cabinet anymore. But this was all about the music.

:56:41.:56:53.

Thank you. Well, mostly. This is more fun than the conference!

:56:54.:56:58.

And we're joined by the former shadow Culture Secretary

:56:59.:57:01.

Michael Dugher, who you saw performing there.

:57:02.:57:05.

What Beatles lyrics define the state of the Labour Party? For one or two

:57:06.:57:13.

of the people screaming at us, back in the USSR! That was too easy! I

:57:14.:57:21.

would like to think come together would be good. I don't want to spoil

:57:22.:57:26.

the party. Which songs did you choose yesterday? Get Back. What not

:57:27.:57:41.

a political song? A Beatles song! I would like to hear you play. Play is

:57:42.:57:43.

out. # Blackbird singing

:57:44.:57:52.

in the dead of night # Take these broken

:57:53.:58:01.

wings and learn to fly # You were only waiting

:58:02.:58:08.

for this moment to arrive # Blackbird singing

:58:09.:58:14.

in the dead of night # Take these broken

:58:15.:58:16.

wings and learn to fly # You were only waiting

:58:17.:58:23.

for this moment to arrive # Into the light of

:58:24.:58:36.

the dark black night # Blackbird singing

:58:37.:59:00.

in the dead of night # Take these broken

:59:01.:59:02.

wings and learn to fly

:59:03.:59:03.

Andrew Neil is joined by shadow health secretary Diane Abbott and Labour's Baroness Chakrabarti at the party's conference in Liverpool, plus a review of the first US presidential election debate.


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