26/09/2016: Labour Party Conference Daily Politics


26/09/2016: Labour Party Conference

Andrew Neil is at the Labour Party conference in Liverpool, with live coverage of shadow chancellor John McDonnell's speech.


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Welcome to Liverpool, where John McDonnell

:00:00.:00:00.

is about to make his Shadow Chancellor's speech

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Can he restore Labour's reputation for economic competence,

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and steady his party's nerves, now the leadership contest is over?

:00:13.:00:52.

Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell says he won't let key industries

:00:53.:01:02.

like steel collapse, and that Labour will protect

:01:03.:01:04.

EU funds to deprived communities after Brexit.

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But we're promised another big announcement in his speech.

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We're on for the next two hours, and will bring you that

:01:11.:01:13.

live and uninterrupted, just after midday.

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Back in Downing Street, the PM's folk have hit back

:01:20.:01:22.

at claims Theresa May soft-peddled on curbs to immigration in the

:01:23.:01:25.

So who's right and who's wrong in the Tory Brexit blame game?

:01:26.:01:34.

A minister for peace, and talk of scrapping

:01:35.:01:36.

Are the nation's defences safe with Labour?

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I'll ask the Shadow Defence Secretary.

:01:41.:01:45.

And Adam takes a look inside the other Labour

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This whole thing is organised by Momentum, the group that grew out

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of Jeremy Corbyn's first leadership campaign, so they

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So all that, and more, in the next two hours of this

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Daily Politics Conference Special, live from Liverpool.

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Let's get right up to date with the latest developments here.

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I'm joined by Heather Stewart of the Guardian, and Sam

:02:14.:02:15.

Welcome to you both. Sam, is the strategy today, particularly with

:02:16.:02:29.

John McDonald's speech, to get policy announcement out so that

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people start talking about policy, not divisions, not the leadership?

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The great problem with this conference has been, up till now,

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what's the point of it? You had Jeremy Corbyn re-elected with a

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bigger mandate on Saturday, but still the sense that the party is

:02:45.:02:48.

deeply divided, and many Labour MPs thinking that their chances are very

:02:49.:02:52.

minimal of winning the next election. So basically what John

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McDonald, Jeremy Corbyn and his team wanted was just try and turn the

:02:58.:03:02.

page, change the conversation with a pig, eye-catching announcement. We

:03:03.:03:05.

just happen in the last few minutes, we are told that the energy and

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climate change spokesman Barry Gardner is going to announce that

:03:11.:03:14.

Labour will form the next election ban fracking. The party had

:03:15.:03:17.

previously been slightly more open to it, they had a position of a

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moratorium that they were not close to it. Now Labour, Jeremy Corbyn

:03:22.:03:27.

thinks, will play to his base, the hundreds of thousands of people that

:03:28.:03:30.

came in the leadership contest, but of course not everyone even in the

:03:31.:03:38.

labour movement dislike fracking. But what is interesting about the

:03:39.:03:41.

first big policy announcement is that it is Jeremy reaching to his

:03:42.:03:46.

core, not Jeremy Chardy to reach out beyond the limited number of people

:03:47.:03:51.

that got him back into power. So if this is an electro- strategy... Sam

:03:52.:03:55.

Coates says what is the point of this conference, what is the answer?

:03:56.:03:59.

I think you are right that the narrative today is to try to switch

:04:00.:04:07.

to big ideas and talk about policy. But it's true it has created a very

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odd atmosphere, having the leadership announcement at the

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start, and Labour MPs who were sceptical about Jeremy Corbyn's

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leadership stayed quiet for a proximate leak of ours a mentor to

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the various stages around the conference centre yesterday to

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express their sort of surprise, alarm and disdain. And it is very

:04:26.:04:28.

clear that there are lots of quiet murmurings that will continue. They

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are going to hope to turn to these sort of policy issues, but you know,

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particularly Brexit, where an opposition is very potent. But I

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don't get is going to be very easy. The Brexit of course is the issue

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that sort of haunts the government. And you would think therefore it

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would be a rich pasture for the opposition. But I'm not quite clear

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what the opposition position is. No, and it is a rich pasture, not least

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because Theresa May has effectively shut down debate on this issue. We

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should be talking about what kind of migration settlement, the type of

:05:07.:05:09.

economic settlement, what the consequences are, but she has

:05:10.:05:12.

effectively banned ministers from doing that so far. There should be

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an opportunity for the Labour Party, but guess what? The Labour Party

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split and there are some people who want to maintain single party

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membership, which means it looks quite to what it is today, in terms

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of migration in particular, and then there is a group that have started

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to come out, we saw it with Rachel Reeves, to a certain degree with

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Chuka Umunna, Emma Reynolds in the last few days suggesting no, we have

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to be more in June with the public on migration, and that might cost us

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about access. Fascinatingly this morning John McDonnell came out on

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the radio and said I want single market access, not membership. Now

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single market access is a bit of a curious piece, it doesn't mean

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anything specific but it means they will not try to get the full

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off-the-shelf package of single market membership that contains the

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free movement requirements. But what it does politically is give the

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government enormous cover, because it means Labour doesn't really need

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to spell out in any more detail what it does and doesn't think should

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happen, and they can get on with any hard or soft Brexit planning,

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knowing that Labour isn't really going to challenge them to hard in

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the short-term. On the Tory side, given that there are so many

:06:27.:06:29.

divisions here, you would think that one Tory tactic would be just a step

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back and allow the media to cover all the divisions. So was it rise of

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Theresa May's people in Downing Street to slap down all these

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stories... ? There has been a lot of slapping down in the last couple of

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weeks, as in there? We had these two books published at the weekend, one

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by David Cameron's former director of communications Craig Oliver, and

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another by the Sunday Times political editor, Tim Shipman,

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making claims about Theresa May's role in the Brexit referendum and it

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was quite hard. In particular on immigration, that she was

:07:06.:07:08.

unenthusiastic about this idea of an emergency brake, it was suggested.

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That it has given the story legs, as we say? It has, and has allowed us

:07:14.:07:22.

to write slap down stories. She was Alan of these yester, to be fair,

:07:23.:07:25.

because she thought Angela McIlroy not allow it. And she was right. --

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Angela Merkel. We will speak to Tim Shipman later in the programme, I

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think you both will be joining us. So it's a big day for

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Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell. We're told he may have a surprise

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for us in his speech in a short while, but we've got an idea of some

:07:41.:07:43.

of what he's going to say. He's going to commit to spending

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more than ?10 billion to make up any shortfall in funding for deprived

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regions resulting from Britain's He'll also say Britain needs

:07:52.:07:53.

an interventionist government working with companies,

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and he'll promise to borrow more Here he is speaking

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earlier to the BBC. The proposal is to set up a national

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investment bank, to allocate ?100 billion towards that,

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and that will lever of another ?150 billion

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and that will be invested in our infrastructure

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and in skills and it will be distributed

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around the country as well so that We want to be like an

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entrepreneurial state. That is the new concept of how

:08:30.:08:32.

government could act. Borrowing is so cheap

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at the moment, that would enable us, we think,

:08:36.:08:37.

very quickly to actually ensure that we could cover the cost of that

:08:38.:08:39.

by ways of increased tax revenues as a result

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of more people employed. And remember, the Bank of England

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only recently put ?75 billion into the economy

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through quantitative easing. So it is not anything on a massive

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scale but it will trigger other investment coming

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in from the private sector. He was Shadow Chancellor

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when Harriet Harman was acting Welcome back to the Daily Politics.

:08:57.:09:10.

What do you make of this particular idea of a national investment bank?

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I assume using state backed borrowed money. There's quite a lot to said

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about the package John McDonnell is coming forward with. I think there

:09:25.:09:29.

is a sensible critique of the Conservatives, in the Brexit

:09:30.:09:30.

two-year negotiation we could well say deficit reduction should be

:09:31.:09:37.

posed. The worry I have is this suggestion of ?500 billion. I mean,

:09:38.:09:44.

that's an awful lot of either borrowing for extra taxes to be

:09:45.:09:48.

raised. About 70% of all current government spending. To raise it you

:09:49.:09:53.

would have to double income tax, you would have to double national

:09:54.:09:56.

insurance, you would have to double council tax and you would have to

:09:57.:10:00.

double the VAT as well. And is he planning to borrow it? I think

:10:01.:10:04.

Vinnie the detail, and the body I have is that the Labour Party has to

:10:05.:10:09.

come up with credible policies that don't send the taxpayers running off

:10:10.:10:13.

into the hills. I suppose the argument would be that interest

:10:14.:10:17.

rates are at an historic low at the moment, 10-year British gilts,

:10:18.:10:22.

government bonds, are playing a yield of only about 0.8%. It is a

:10:23.:10:27.

cheap time to borrow for the long-term, so why not do it for a

:10:28.:10:32.

long-term investment? And I think you could legitimately say let's

:10:33.:10:35.

Paul's deficit reduction for a couple of years will stop that

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should be pressure on Philip Hammond and the Conservatives think I've

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really been playing for the Autumn Statement. But we should be pushing

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for that. That should be attacked on the Conservatives. The problem is if

:10:48.:10:51.

John McDonnell overreaches by making out he's got this magic money tree

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in his back garden that can be shaken, and everything can be sorted

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out, the public will sort of say, it doesn't add up. That is I think an

:11:00.:11:04.

important principle, which is one of the reasons I have disagreements

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with John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn. I think you've got to be

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straight and honest with the public about where the money comes from. If

:11:12.:11:16.

you ever promise and then get into government and can't deliver, that

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really is a bad state of affairs. Do you know what he means, used this

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phrase this morning on the BBC, the entrepreneurial state. I think there

:11:28.:11:31.

are some people who have been speaking to Professor Marianne to

:11:32.:11:34.

Carter, one of the academics has been consulting with him, trying to

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find ways of either voluntary sector, third sector, nonprofit way

:11:42.:11:45.

helping to get new activities and entrepreneurialism going. But I

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think it is over now have a feeling that something concrete. I want to

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see precisely what the Labour Party will do in terms of hard impact

:11:58.:12:02.

counteracting the worries people have about Brexit, showing people on

:12:03.:12:05.

public spinning and on taxes. Together, that credibility has to be

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brought back to the centre of their talking about. I know it sounds

:12:13.:12:15.

boring and pragmatic but it really matters to a lot of taxpayers. Isn't

:12:16.:12:20.

the Tory attack line on this quite obvious, you lost the last election

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because voters think you are profligate, that you are a tax and

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spend party, that you borrow too much, and now here you are going to

:12:30.:12:35.

borrow another 500 billion? It is why I have not been able to be part

:12:36.:12:39.

of the Shadow Cabinet. I will try to do my best from the backbenches, and

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I will try my best to say let's be realistic about what is achievable.

:12:46.:12:48.

We can still do radical things with that but if you fall into this

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almost populist mode of promising everybody everything all the time,

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the public can say this doesn't quite stack up and that is one of

:12:57.:13:02.

the principal reasons I find my beliefs that Mariappa really with

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what John is offering right now. So you are not going back into the

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Shadow Cabinet? No, I don't think it would be honest of me. I could go

:13:11.:13:14.

back in and sort of pretend and lighter people about it, but in all

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conscience, I have to be honest with my constituents in the country think

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that is realistic and best of the country at large, and that, to me,

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I'm afraid has to come first. You heard Sam Coates mentioning earlier

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from the Times about Labour's position on the single market, and

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what its policy should be, holding the government to account, as the

:13:35.:13:40.

government struggles to define what our relationship with a single

:13:41.:13:44.

market will be. Is it clear what Labour's position is on this? I

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think Labour generally, of course at the last conference we supported to

:13:50.:13:54.

remain in the EU. We obviously lost the referendum. I don't think we

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should be trying to replay this referendum we have to make the best

:13:58.:14:02.

of what we can. I would like to keep the benefits we currently have on EU

:14:03.:14:06.

membership for our businesses. So for example I had a debate in the

:14:07.:14:09.

Commons last week about financial services access. Prior percent of

:14:10.:14:14.

the economy. We need to have good regulation, robust, so we can still

:14:15.:14:19.

have access to their markets. If we end up chasing the John Redwood

:14:20.:14:23.

Nigel Lawson view of low regulation, offshore tax havens style Britain,

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we will not only go down the runway which is unsafe for the taxpayer but

:14:28.:14:30.

we will use access to those important markets. So there is a

:14:31.:14:34.

Labour case to be made to the government but again I think front

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bench have not quite grappled with their own feelings about

:14:42.:14:43.

international engagement and doing business with Europe. There is a bit

:14:44.:14:49.

of a strawman argument here, is there not? We cannot remain a member

:14:50.:14:54.

of the single market because of the things that go with it, that people

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voted against? Particularly free movement. Membership means free

:15:00.:15:02.

movement of people and people did not vote on 23rd. We have access to

:15:03.:15:07.

the single market, whatever our position. The thing we don't know it

:15:08.:15:12.

is on what terms will that access be? Yes, and I think there is a deal

:15:13.:15:16.

to be done somewhere about free movement of skills, because the

:15:17.:15:19.

Germans and the Italians and the French are now also thinking free

:15:20.:15:23.

movement of people without any of these constraints, that is also

:15:24.:15:26.

causing them issues, and I think probably we are in the game of a new

:15:27.:15:31.

bilateral treaty with the EU, where we cannot just take the rules that

:15:32.:15:35.

the other 20 to decide, I think that would be very difficult. So we have

:15:36.:15:40.

to have a say we have to be around the table, we have to be consulted.

:15:41.:15:45.

That, I think, probably mean some new bilateral treaty. I think that's

:15:46.:15:48.

where we need to be but also we shouldn't be triggering Article 50

:15:49.:15:53.

until we can be certain we are allowed to talk about the new

:15:54.:15:56.

relationships at the same time as the divorce process. If you have to

:15:57.:16:01.

wait two years for Brexit divorce proceedings to be finished, as the

:16:02.:16:05.

commission is saying, and then only talk about the new relationship,

:16:06.:16:09.

that is five years potential limbo. So we have got to make sure that we

:16:10.:16:12.

insist we do both those things simultaneously.

:16:13.:16:16.

So do we end up with some kind of free trade agreement with the EU? It

:16:17.:16:24.

may be that we don't necessarily stay in the customs union... The

:16:25.:16:29.

single market. Because that would mean us taking the rules, people are

:16:30.:16:34.

worried about Ttip and some of those things and that is when we are in

:16:35.:16:37.

the club and can talk about them but if we are not in it, we have to take

:16:38.:16:41.

the rules but we need to find a new way of staying in being consulted

:16:42.:16:45.

and that to me is a new bilateral treaty. If it is now inevitable that

:16:46.:16:51.

Jeremy Corbyn leads your party into the next election? Well, the members

:16:52.:16:55.

as is have chosen for him to be at the helm. He did very well amongst

:16:56.:17:02.

the new joiners, not all of them, but by and large. He got 85% of the

:17:03.:17:08.

newcomers. But actually, the majority of long-standing members,

:17:09.:17:11.

as exit polls show, were for change. We ended up with 59% of the

:17:12.:17:17.

membership voting for Jeremy and 41% dissatisfied, wanting a change. That

:17:18.:17:22.

41% is a big, serious group of mostly long-standing members who

:17:23.:17:26.

want to hold Jeremy to account. Now he has to meet a series of

:17:27.:17:30.

challenges. He's got to develop credible policies. He's got to look

:17:31.:17:34.

like a Prime Minister in waiting. He has to go ahead in the opinion

:17:35.:17:41.

polls. Those are hurdles he's got to get over. Are you confident that

:17:42.:17:45.

will happen? I've been waiting to see if there is this mythical olive

:17:46.:17:50.

branch... Is the mythical olive branch next to the magic money tree?

:17:51.:17:55.

Are they in the same room? I hope not, I hope the olive branch is real

:17:56.:17:59.

because if we can't reach accommodation, as I say, I think we

:18:00.:18:01.

can be productive from the backbenches, some of us, but if we

:18:02.:18:06.

don't have a front bench Shadow Cabinet chosen by the Parliamentary

:18:07.:18:09.

Labour Party, then it is going to be very difficult for MPs in their

:18:10.:18:13.

codgers, representing their constituents, to go along with some

:18:14.:18:17.

of the things that they have not been part of formulating. On the

:18:18.:18:21.

backbenches, we can continue with our own policy agenda and develop

:18:22.:18:25.

that, sensible, hard-headed, you know, we have got to keep trying and

:18:26.:18:29.

that is what I will try to do. Let me ask you one more specific

:18:30.:18:33.

question, the Labour Party has said that if it forms the next

:18:34.:18:35.

government, it will ban fracking. What is your position on that? I

:18:36.:18:41.

can't say I have ever been a big fan of fracking. Have to be careful what

:18:42.:18:46.

you say, they're! It came out right but I'm not sure how it squares with

:18:47.:18:51.

reopening the coal mines which is something Jeremy was also keen to

:18:52.:18:55.

do. You do have to have an energy policy that yes, focuses on reducing

:18:56.:18:59.

carbon emissions but also provides energy security and build that the

:19:00.:19:04.

consumer can afford. Unless you get all of those things right, I think

:19:05.:19:09.

we are very good at saying what we are against but we have to now say

:19:10.:19:12.

what we are for. Chris Leslie, good to see you. Have not seen you for a

:19:13.:19:15.

while. Great to be back. Talk of splits and infighting

:19:16.:19:17.

continue here in Liverpool, but the Conservatives,

:19:18.:19:19.

who meet for their conference next week in Birmingham,

:19:20.:19:22.

obviously don't want to be left out. Prime Minister Theresa May has this

:19:23.:19:28.

morning had a rather pointed dig at her predecessor,

:19:29.:19:33.

David Cameron, after claims that he called

:19:34.:19:35.

her "lily-livered". The claim was made in a book

:19:36.:19:37.

by the political editor of the Sunday Times,

:19:38.:19:43.

one of a couple of new books about the referendum causing

:19:44.:19:46.

a stir over the weekend. It claims that, in a 2014 speech,

:19:47.:19:52.

Mr Cameron wanted to demand stronger controls on EU migration,

:19:53.:19:55.

including an "emergency brake" Mrs May, along with the then

:19:56.:19:57.

Foreign Secretary, Philip Hammond, put a dampener on that, arguing that

:19:58.:20:03.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel After the meeting, Mr Cameron

:20:04.:20:07.

told an advisor that his In response to the claims,

:20:08.:20:16.

David Cameron's replacement at No 10 Mrs May has taken the unprecedented

:20:17.:20:33.

step of releasing details of two letters Mrs May,

:20:34.:20:35.

then Home Secretary, sent to David Cameron calling

:20:36.:20:37.

for an emergency brake, one in November 2014,

:20:38.:20:39.

and one in May 2015. They also point to previous

:20:40.:20:46.

articles from 2013 and 2014 where Mrs May argued

:20:47.:20:49.

for "a cap" on EU migration. In the end, Mr Cameron's final deal

:20:50.:20:52.

with the EU secured curbs on benefits for migration,

:20:53.:21:00.

not on overall numbers. And the terms of that deal

:21:01.:21:02.

were rejected by the voting public, who opted to leave the EU

:21:03.:21:05.

on the 23rd June referendum. Well, the man responsible

:21:06.:21:10.

for the book that's caused this kerfuffle is Tim Shipman

:21:11.:21:12.

from the Sunday Times. He joins me now, and from our

:21:13.:21:16.

Westminster studio I'm joined by Mark Wallace from

:21:17.:21:18.

the website Conservative Home. So, Tim Shipman, it turns out Mrs

:21:19.:21:29.

May wanted an emergency brake. She appears to have wanted it a week

:21:30.:21:33.

before the meeting and she appears to have put her thoughts in writing

:21:34.:21:36.

to the Prime Minister six months after the meeting. But my sources

:21:37.:21:40.

are adamant and Downing Street, it is important to say, are not denying

:21:41.:21:44.

that in this key meeting just before David Cameron made the speech laying

:21:45.:21:48.

out what he wanted on immigration, she did not back him up on the

:21:49.:21:52.

grounds that it would not win the support of the Germans. But you

:21:53.:22:00.

could be in favour of a brake and say it won't run with Angela Merkel

:22:01.:22:04.

and that is also right. I'm not sure why there is a conflict. She wanted

:22:05.:22:08.

a brake, she would have loved it and was all for it but she knew it would

:22:09.:22:12.

not wash with the German Chancellor. The point the people around David

:22:13.:22:15.

Cameron are making is that this is a pivotal moment in the referendum.

:22:16.:22:19.

From this point onwards, the speech he makes on immigration committee is

:22:20.:22:22.

demanding things on benefits, not numbers and they think that is

:22:23.:22:26.

critical. -- on immigration, he is demanding. It set the policy,

:22:27.:22:35.

despite it just being a conversation, from that point until

:22:36.:22:38.

the referenda. From that point onwards, the benefits are people on

:22:39.:22:42.

the speech was only watered down further so writing memos and letters

:22:43.:22:45.

six months later, the scene was already set by then. This was the

:22:46.:22:49.

moment where, if you were going to take a stand, you could have done

:22:50.:22:54.

it. But she was right. Arguably, she was but people are looking back now

:22:55.:22:58.

saying why and how what the referendum lost, and they think the

:22:59.:23:07.

failure to go big, to ask for more, to try to transcend the tramlines of

:23:08.:23:09.

European law, was where the mistake was made. Cameron himself at that

:23:10.:23:13.

point appears to have thought, let's go for it because that 3am in a

:23:14.:23:17.

summit, they might give us something. Don't forget, the

:23:18.:23:20.

benefits stuff he did put in the speech, officials in Downing Street

:23:21.:23:23.

and all the people around also said that was illegal and would not work

:23:24.:23:27.

but in the end he got some of it. So some of this may have been

:23:28.:23:32.

obtainable if he had gone for it. Let's go to Mark Wallace. What do

:23:33.:23:38.

you think? Is it credible that Mrs May was against tougher curbs on

:23:39.:23:45.

immigration? As you just said, Andrew, the really notable thing is

:23:46.:23:48.

when you look at the details, the two accounts are not completely

:23:49.:23:51.

incompatible. It is perfectly possible Theresa May was asking the

:23:52.:23:55.

Prime Minister for a proper, tough brake on immigration but when she

:23:56.:23:59.

looked at what David Cameron was actually talking about, which was

:24:00.:24:02.

not really a brake in Britain's control but one that they would ask

:24:03.:24:06.

for and the European Commission and every single other EU member state

:24:07.:24:15.

would have to give us permission to pull the brake, she might have

:24:16.:24:17.

looked at it and thought it was frankly pointless. Tim Shipman, it

:24:18.:24:19.

is kind of counterintuitive that Theresa May, given the speech she

:24:20.:24:22.

made at the Tory conference last year, would want to water down any

:24:23.:24:29.

British position on immigration. I think that is probably why it is

:24:30.:24:32.

news, why it is interesting because the debate now is about what lessons

:24:33.:24:37.

can be learned from how the referendum campaign and the

:24:38.:24:39.

renegotiation was conducted in terms of how we now go forward to

:24:40.:24:44.

negotiate Brexit. Downing Street, I need to stress, are not disputing

:24:45.:24:46.

that in this meeting, that is precisely what Mrs May did. They are

:24:47.:24:51.

rightly saying there is contact stillness and she remained a firm

:24:52.:24:55.

advocate of tough measures. -- context do this. But when it came to

:24:56.:24:58.

putting the policy in the speech, she thought it would not wash. But

:24:59.:25:03.

it is dancing on the head of a pin, it was not that she was against an

:25:04.:25:06.

emergency brake, in fact, she was in favour of it. It is just that she

:25:07.:25:11.

did not think, all the evidence suggests she was right, that you

:25:12.:25:15.

could sell that to the Germans in general and Angela Merkel in

:25:16.:25:19.

particular. I don't understand what it tells us beyond that. It tells us

:25:20.:25:25.

she wanted to work with the grain of the system and David Cameron, who

:25:26.:25:29.

ended up working with the grain of the system as well, at the one

:25:30.:25:32.

moment where he felt, actually, shall we try to do something more

:25:33.:25:36.

radical, she did not seem to want to do that. But he could still have

:25:37.:25:40.

forced it through if he wanted. Of course and when you read the rest of

:25:41.:25:50.

the book, you will see the David Cameron is not exactly escaping scot

:25:51.:25:52.

free himself. Mark Wallace, we have also had Craig Oliver's account of

:25:53.:25:55.

the referendum campaign. He talks of a submarine strategy by Theresa May,

:25:56.:25:57.

that she was pretty much invisible during the referendum campaign. That

:25:58.:26:02.

is quite accurate, isn't it? It is pretty accurate and you have to stay

:26:03.:26:04.

in retrospect, that was something that turned out to be quite wise. --

:26:05.:26:09.

you have disabled these are two different books, Tim's is a

:26:10.:26:14.

journalistic account and Craig Oliver's is much more partisan for

:26:15.:26:17.

obvious reasons but what shines through in both of them is that

:26:18.:26:21.

there is a huge blame game going on, people who were running the country

:26:22.:26:24.

three and a half months ago are now engaged, quite extraordinary, in

:26:25.:26:28.

trying to take chunks out of the next Prime Minister which is not a

:26:29.:26:34.

great look. Isn't this just the settling of old scores, Tim? These

:26:35.:26:37.

are the losers and they want to blame somebody else. They lost the

:26:38.:26:40.

campaign, their campaign, they called it, they ran it, the campaign

:26:41.:26:44.

was run from Downing Street by people like Craig Oliver, Mr

:26:45.:26:49.

Cameron, himself, they decided the positions are now they are just

:26:50.:26:51.

trying to smear the new Prime Minister? There is certainly a case

:26:52.:26:56.

that there's a difference of opinion but I think it is an attempt to

:26:57.:26:59.

learn some lessons. There were divisions within Downing Street

:27:00.:27:02.

about how far Cameron should go and a lot of the people around Cameron

:27:03.:27:06.

felt he should do something much bolder. They looked at this moment

:27:07.:27:11.

as the one moment where he might have done that. They think that it

:27:12.:27:15.

is unfortunate that he was not backed up at that point. Finally, if

:27:16.:27:22.

he had gone to Berlin, to the German Chancellor and said, "I need a brake

:27:23.:27:26.

to be able to sell this referendum to the British people, to win it, I

:27:27.:27:32.

need an emergency brake on numbers", and she had said, would almost

:27:33.:27:35.

certainly she would have, "I understand that but I'm afraid, as a

:27:36.:27:40.

woman from Eastern Europe who lived behind the Berlin Wall, that it is a

:27:41.:27:44.

red line for me, there is no way we can agree to that", what would he

:27:45.:27:50.

have done? He would have had to capitulate or campaign to leave and

:27:51.:27:54.

that was never going to happen. That is one argument. But I return to

:27:55.:27:58.

what I said earlier. The benefits stuff was also not beloved in

:27:59.:28:02.

Europe. People in the British government, lawyers and people in

:28:03.:28:07.

Berlin all said it contravened the principles of non-discrimination and

:28:08.:28:10.

yet, at the end of the day, he ended up getting a version of it. There

:28:11.:28:14.

are people who think if he had pushed harder on free movement,

:28:15.:28:18.

there were areas where he might have achieved more. We will never know!

:28:19.:28:23.

Tim Shipman, Mark Wallace, thank you very much.

:28:24.:28:24.

Now, events held on the fringes of party conference are usually

:28:25.:28:27.

They're a chance to meet policy enthusiasts in a warm room,

:28:28.:28:31.

with even warmer glasses of wine, if you're lucky.

:28:32.:28:33.

But not far from where we are in Liverpool,

:28:34.:28:35.

the Jeremy Corbyn-supporting campaign group Momentum has been

:28:36.:28:37.

holding an event on a much bigger scale, with the rather ambitious aim

:28:38.:28:40.

Right, this festival is happening near Chinatown,

:28:41.:28:50.

in an arts venue, called the Black E.

:28:51.:28:52.

It is called "The World Transformed".

:28:53.:28:54.

Let's find out how our world is going to be transformed.

:28:55.:28:57.

This whole thing is organised by Momentum, the group that grew out

:28:58.:29:00.

of Jeremy Corbyn's first leadership campaign.

:29:01.:29:01.

Next door is the nation's largest ethical streetwear brand,

:29:02.:29:06.

selling all sorts of Jeremy Corbyn T-shirts.

:29:07.:29:10.

Apparently, this is the best seller, here, being modelled by Ash.

:29:11.:29:14.

This is the bookshop called News From Nowhere which is run

:29:15.:29:17.

You can pick up such brilliant tomes as The Jeremy Corbyn Colouring-In

:29:18.:29:23.

Book, and a collection of poems in honour of the Labour leader.

:29:24.:29:30.

Then, magically, Jeremy Corbyn dropped in, completely unannounced.

:29:31.:29:35.

This corner is where people come to have a rant on any

:29:36.:29:52.

subject they feel strongly about, like Michelle

:29:53.:29:54.

If all that activism leaves you starving,

:29:55.:30:10.

why not join the queue here for one of the famous pies

:30:11.:30:13.

This is a Shankly Pie, a local delicacy made with steak,

:30:14.:30:17.

The whole hall is dominated by these massive banners for causes ranging

:30:18.:30:24.

from the Liverpool dockers to climate change to people who have

:30:25.:30:27.

There's more art up here where you will find Phil

:30:28.:30:34.

the sculptor hard at work on a bust of Sylvia Pankhurst,

:30:35.:30:36.

the daughter of Emmeline, the suffragette leader.

:30:37.:30:41.

And this is Edward Rushton, a poet, blind, born in Liverpool and helped

:30:42.:30:44.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is The World Transformed.

:30:45.:30:51.

We're joined now by one of Momentum's national organisers,

:30:52.:30:57.

Adam Klug, and by John McTernan, who has worked for the Labour Party

:30:58.:31:00.

in various guises including as an adviser to Tony Blair.

:31:01.:31:03.

Welcome to you both. Adam at the world transformed meeting, is this

:31:04.:31:13.

the people who could not get into the Labour Party conference? No, it

:31:14.:31:17.

is to try to enable the conference to be even more accessible than it

:31:18.:31:22.

is already, so intending to attract visitors and delegates to

:31:23.:31:24.

conference, but also groups like disabled people against cuts, black

:31:25.:31:30.

lives matter, Hillsborough Justice campaign, groups that might not have

:31:31.:31:33.

been able to have afforded a story that to be part of it and have their

:31:34.:31:37.

own workshops and sessions. What is the fundamental purpose? To bring

:31:38.:31:43.

the new politics into action, in the way of having their participatory

:31:44.:31:46.

workshops, talks and discussions and music, club nights in the evening,

:31:47.:31:51.

to try and return the Labour Party into the social movement so many

:31:52.:31:59.

wish it to be. Dirk Kuyt to bring all bring that into the Labour

:32:00.:32:03.

conference itself? I think so, in time. But I see it in harmony with

:32:04.:32:08.

the comfort and amplifying the Labour Party rather than as some

:32:09.:32:12.

people suggest somehow Anelka alternative conference, which is not

:32:13.:32:18.

how it is intended at all. Red Mr Corbyn said we need to went people

:32:19.:32:25.

have been tempted to vote Tory have voted Tory. How is your momentum

:32:26.:32:30.

gathering on that? It is time to bring in people who are new to

:32:31.:32:33.

politics who previously felt that mentioning politics has not been for

:32:34.:32:44.

them. People who are affected in their lives will vote a different

:32:45.:32:49.

party for a number of reasons and a lot of those people will come to The

:32:50.:32:56.

World Transformed and have their voices heard. I am not sure how you

:32:57.:33:01.

attract Tory inclined people by selling mugs that said Tories are

:33:02.:33:07.

vermin, and T-shirts that said still hate Thatcher. I haven't seen either

:33:08.:33:16.

of those things. But you have been to Momentum, haven't you? It is a

:33:17.:33:22.

diverse range of people over 200 hours of workshops. How are you

:33:23.:33:27.

going to attract anybody outside political geeks to want to be there

:33:28.:33:33.

for that? It went on until 2am, 2:30am on Saturday, and there will

:33:34.:33:36.

be another big music night on Tuesday. On Saturday night I was

:33:37.:33:40.

talking to a number of disabled people who are from Liverpool, who

:33:41.:33:43.

had come along and it is a fully accessible space and they were on

:33:44.:33:47.

the dance floor, and I was having a chat with an outside. People are

:33:48.:33:51.

saying to the first time in a very long time they felt this was a place

:33:52.:33:54.

that was truly inclusive. There was a lot more overweight to go.

:33:55.:33:58.

Momentum has brought a lot more people into the party, a lot younger

:33:59.:34:03.

people into the party, people who have not previously been involved in

:34:04.:34:06.

party politics into the party. What's wrong with that? Probably the

:34:07.:34:13.

most serious thing is that they would define their politics around a

:34:14.:34:17.

set of issues and ideas which are completely unpalatable to the

:34:18.:34:24.

British public. I saw the energy at Momentum, I was there yesterday, and

:34:25.:34:28.

I saw lots of the meetings but these are not mainstream political ideas,

:34:29.:34:31.

they are the ideas of the fringe, and the reason they are on the

:34:32.:34:34.

fringe politics is because they are popular. Such as what? They are

:34:35.:34:42.

anti-capitalist, which in the end is antigrowth, which is anti-wealth.

:34:43.:34:46.

That is not a policy, it is a frame of mind or a strategy,

:34:47.:34:51.

anti-capitalism. But policies are Momentum espousing that are

:34:52.:34:55.

unpopular, reaching out to disabled people, why would that be unpopular?

:34:56.:35:00.

Those on policies, they are ways of working, they are very friendly and

:35:01.:35:05.

a welcoming environment are go into, but the Momentum mindset is that if

:35:06.:35:10.

more people talk more about John McDonnell's economic policies to

:35:11.:35:13.

people, they will convince them that printing money is the way to save

:35:14.:35:17.

the economy, and it's not. It's not a strategy because it's not a

:35:18.:35:22.

message to sell. What is the meaning of the Momentum mindset? It is a

:35:23.:35:27.

very large Jeremy Corbyn Fanclub, and good on him. But a political

:35:28.:35:35.

party needs activists, and one of the complaint I have heard from MPs

:35:36.:35:40.

who are here is that Momentum members join the party and go to

:35:41.:35:45.

Momentum that are never active on doorsteps, they never leaflet and

:35:46.:35:49.

never campaign. Is that right? Not at all, let's think about it, Labour

:35:50.:35:58.

have lost two general elections, and we now have so many more new

:35:59.:36:03.

activists who are out campaigning. The momentum of for Labour hashtag

:36:04.:36:09.

has proved really effective in the May elections. By-elections. I get

:36:10.:36:15.

lots of tweets from Momentum. Sometimes they don't want to be

:36:16.:36:19.

obviously branded as Momentum, so they are just out campaigning. We

:36:20.:36:27.

love Twitter, but Twitter is not the world, it is an echo chamber, it is

:36:28.:36:32.

just an exchange of views with people who normally agree with, not

:36:33.:36:36.

political suasion. Isn't the problem though that many people will regard

:36:37.:36:41.

Momentum and the people at this Momentum gathering as the future for

:36:42.:36:46.

Labour, and the Parliamentary party will have to start being more

:36:47.:36:51.

representative of the future, rather than dinosaurs such as yourself?

:36:52.:36:58.

What we actually see is, as members join the party, there is an

:36:59.:37:03.

enthusiasm. The members who joined last year lost their enthusiasm for

:37:04.:37:06.

him after the Brexit vote, because they blamed him for Labour's per

:37:07.:37:15.

performance in mobilising voters. I say good on Momentum for organising

:37:16.:37:19.

their events, good on them for bringing people into politics, but

:37:20.:37:23.

the thing is politics is about persuasion, and persuasion is based

:37:24.:37:26.

on conversation, and that is an exchange of views, not the

:37:27.:37:30.

transmission of a set of use to which there can be no variants that

:37:31.:37:35.

is my problem. Firstly, it is great that you came yesterday and so what

:37:36.:37:39.

The World Transformed is about but the talking about Momentum mindset

:37:40.:37:45.

is a fundamental misunderstanding of a pluralist range of views, people

:37:46.:37:49.

coming in to discuss. It is not a place with a fixed mindset of

:37:50.:37:53.

indoctrination. I'm sure that's not how you experienced it yesterday,

:37:54.:37:56.

and I would incur Vergeer, Andrew, to come along as well. Is that an

:37:57.:38:04.

invite? Yes. Can I get one of these pies? Indeed! By New Road about some

:38:05.:38:12.

of the merchandise, some letters join the British Army and get free

:38:13.:38:19.

prosthetic limbs. I believe you are referring to Darren Cullen, an

:38:20.:38:24.

artist, who in collaboration with veterans UK was putting on an art

:38:25.:38:29.

exhibition about the horrors of war but it was absolutely not a way of

:38:30.:38:33.

demonising soldiers or anything, it was just amplifying the issues which

:38:34.:38:36.

were often creates both civilians and people in services. Right, but

:38:37.:38:41.

there were some mugs that if you are in the army you would take offence

:38:42.:38:45.

to, would you not? I don't think they were intended in any way to be

:38:46.:38:49.

demonising soldiers, that wasn't the intention at all. If anyone did take

:38:50.:38:53.

offence to that, that is a shame. I apologise. On the Jewish labour

:38:54.:39:03.

movement, one of the leaflet says that you are using the charge of

:39:04.:39:07.

anti-Semitism to attack the new movement. By New Road about being

:39:08.:39:12.

thought of in parts as anti-Semitic. I can't hear you so well because it

:39:13.:39:18.

is quite nosy, J say? There have been some complaints about charges

:39:19.:39:21.

of anti-Semitism of the new movement. Are you worried about

:39:22.:39:27.

that? There was a session about the Chakravarty enquiry yesterday as a

:39:28.:39:32.

way of having a range of diverse voices, Jewish voices, and

:39:33.:39:35.

discussing anti-Semitism both within the party and more broadly within

:39:36.:39:41.

society, and a way of breaking down misconceptions, and hearing

:39:42.:39:43.

different viewpoints from a range of perspectives, so as to learn from

:39:44.:39:46.

one another and to stamp out anti-Semitism. Are you the Momentum

:39:47.:39:52.

guy in the Channel 4 documentary that says Momentum has taken over

:39:53.:39:59.

Bristol? We had somebody who came in who worked with us for five months

:40:00.:40:05.

as a volunteer, who was really seen as a friend by many, who was with us

:40:06.:40:11.

for a long period of time. He did secretly for me in the corridor and

:40:12.:40:16.

said something taken out of context. What I was saying is that there were

:40:17.:40:20.

loads of new activists who got involved in the party, both

:40:21.:40:23.

campaigning in a range of issues but they had also got active in the

:40:24.:40:26.

Labour Party and been elected to positions, but it is not in some

:40:27.:40:30.

orchestra to plan to take over and infiltrate from a small group. That

:40:31.:40:34.

is not what Momentum is, it is not infiltrating the Labour Party, it is

:40:35.:40:38.

the Labour Party. We will leave it there, thanks to both of you.

:40:39.:40:42.

Now, yesterday we reported that the Labour peer Parry Mitchell

:40:43.:40:44.

had resigned from the party in protest at Jeremy

:40:45.:40:46.

This morning, the Leader of the Labour Group

:40:47.:40:49.

on Portsmouth City Council, John Ferrett, has resigned, and he

:40:50.:40:52.

Why have you resigned? I have come to the conclusion I can no longer

:40:53.:41:04.

stay in a Labour Party that is not only led by Jeremy Corbyn, but is

:41:05.:41:07.

effectively being shipped in his image. I spent the last year

:41:08.:41:12.

struggling with that, but Jeremy clearly has a clear mandate. Now he

:41:13.:41:17.

has won a second election but it is not something I want to be part of.

:41:18.:41:25.

And was because he was re-elected for a second time did you conclude

:41:26.:41:29.

that that settles the matter, and that the kind of Labour Party you

:41:30.:41:34.

want is now really not possible for the foreseeable future? Yes,

:41:35.:41:42.

certainly, and I feel that the 172 Labour MPs crossed the Rubicon when

:41:43.:41:46.

they decided to have a vote of no-confidence in Jeremy, because I

:41:47.:41:49.

cannot see, and I ask this question over the weekend directly to some

:41:50.:41:53.

members of the PLP, but didn't get an answer. The question is how can

:41:54.:41:59.

you go out at election time cap advocated Jeremy Corbyn to be prime

:42:00.:42:02.

ministers of a country and at the same time so you have absolutely no

:42:03.:42:05.

confidence in him? Electors are not stupid and they will just throw that

:42:06.:42:09.

straight back at those member is of the PLP. What has been the reaction

:42:10.:42:15.

on your Labour colleagues in Portsmouth? I'm sorry, Andrew, can

:42:16.:42:24.

you repeat that? Yes, what has been the reaction of your Labour

:42:25.:42:33.

colleagues in the city? No, I think he's struggling to hear. I can hear

:42:34.:42:40.

you now, Andrew. I just wondered what the reaction was of your Labour

:42:41.:42:46.

colleagues in the city had been? I have had some expressions of support

:42:47.:42:51.

from long-standing members, clearly the Labour Party in Portsmouth

:42:52.:42:54.

reflects what is happening in the country. That the Labour Party in

:42:55.:43:00.

Portsmouth has gone from 400 member is to over 1700 members in the last

:43:01.:43:05.

year. Those people I campaigned with and worked with prior to 2015

:43:06.:43:09.

appeared to be very supportive, but I suspect those that have come in

:43:10.:43:13.

subsequently, particularly those organised by momentum will be glad

:43:14.:43:17.

to see the back of May. And is Momentum now a force in your local

:43:18.:43:24.

Labour Party? Yes, Portsmouth was one of the first CLPs I think to be

:43:25.:43:33.

taken over by Momentum. Taken over? Yes, Momentum took over of the

:43:34.:43:39.

office within the CLP. I would argue that Portsmouth is right in the

:43:40.:43:44.

vanguard of Momentum, it is a Momentum stronghold. Over the last

:43:45.:43:47.

year I have faced a lot of hostility from them because I have a

:43:48.:43:51.

completely different political perspective. Mr ferret, we will

:43:52.:43:55.

leave it there. Struggling through the sound problems and the wind, and

:43:56.:43:59.

lots of noise all over, I am very grateful to you. Always windy here,

:44:00.:44:07.

Andrew! That is the news from Portsmouth.

:44:08.:44:08.

I'm joined now by the Labour mayor of Bristol, Marvin Rees.

:44:09.:44:13.

What is your reaction to his resignation? To be honest, it is the

:44:14.:44:19.

first I have heard of it right now so it is a bit of a surprise, but we

:44:20.:44:22.

need to keep people on board. I think the critical thing to the

:44:23.:44:25.

party's future is that we have a genuine diversity of thought and

:44:26.:44:28.

argument to make sure the propositions we take to the country

:44:29.:44:33.

are as rich as they should be. But he was saying that Momentum had

:44:34.:44:36.

taken over the local party in Portsmouth. Has it taken over the

:44:37.:44:43.

Labour Party in Bristol too? No, and we worked very hard to the election

:44:44.:44:47.

campaign to make sure that we are protecting this space in the party

:44:48.:44:51.

to have rich debate. Clearly, sometimes that went over the top,

:44:52.:44:55.

and we are dealing with some of the consequences of that now. But as the

:44:56.:44:59.

leader of my party investor I am really keen to make sure that our

:45:00.:45:02.

local debate, not just within the Labour Party, but across the

:45:03.:45:05.

political parties is as rich and dynamic as it should be. So when

:45:06.:45:13.

Adam Klug from Momentum said in the Channel 4 document tree, the battle

:45:14.:45:17.

for the Labour Party, referring to Momentum after a visit to the city

:45:18.:45:22.

of Bristol, they are taking over, they are taking over of the

:45:23.:45:25.

constituency Labour parties in the area, they are completely like

:45:26.:45:29.

running the Labour Party. Look at what I am doing in my city, I have

:45:30.:45:33.

delivered a cross-party cabinet, six women, Faye men, I have a Liberal

:45:34.:45:38.

Democrat, a green party member and a conservative in my cabinet. We are

:45:39.:45:41.

building a big support base across business, the voluntary sector and

:45:42.:45:45.

the political parties. We have taken city government outside of the city

:45:46.:45:52.

and it is a party not looking in on itself, we are determined. Have they

:45:53.:45:55.

taken over the constituency Labour parties in the area?

:45:56.:46:00.

No, they haven't, and the important message we want to bring to

:46:01.:46:05.

conference is that the domination of local politics and city politics by

:46:06.:46:08.

the Westminster conversation is one that needs... We need to move beyond

:46:09.:46:14.

it. I am the leader of one of the ten core cities. Between us, we

:46:15.:46:19.

oversee 90 million people. We need the Westminster debate to begin to

:46:20.:46:22.

wrap itself around how it supports city leaders to deliver not asking

:46:23.:46:25.

city leaders to keep commenting and wrapping itself around the

:46:26.:46:29.

Westminster debate. How important is the devolution of powers to cities

:46:30.:46:35.

like yours and high profile mayors like you, like London and Manchester

:46:36.:46:40.

are about to have and so on, how does that help rebuild the Labour

:46:41.:46:45.

Party? It is essential. Devolution is not just imported in rebuilding

:46:46.:46:50.

the Labour Party. It is important to rebuilding cities. It is essential

:46:51.:46:53.

and one of the challenges that we as their core cities will be bringing

:46:54.:46:57.

to the party today is that they need to be much more proactive in

:46:58.:47:01.

supporting devolution's agenda. We want to take responsibility but we

:47:02.:47:06.

don't want a hospital pass. We want to take responsibility for

:47:07.:47:09.

populations and to deliver for them but we need the power to make sure

:47:10.:47:12.

we get the homes built and the transport systems in place. What is

:47:13.:47:16.

the one big power you would like to have if you could have it tomorrow?

:47:17.:47:21.

Transport. We are making good headway on building houses. We have

:47:22.:47:24.

a fantastic political lead on that but we need to be able to get hold

:47:25.:47:28.

of transport. You can't have great cities without great transport

:47:29.:47:32.

network and Bristol faces major challenges. If you had the transport

:47:33.:47:36.

power, what would you do with it? Begin to shape the bus routes in the

:47:37.:47:44.

first instance, who gets served so we don't end up with isolated

:47:45.:47:46.

communities. And that comes from local knowledge and demand?

:47:47.:47:48.

Absolutely, not just in local government but with the brass

:47:49.:47:52.

providers and the voluntary sectors and community and business. You have

:47:53.:47:56.

said you oppose austerity. Everybody seems to these days. Is it not true

:47:57.:48:01.

that he faced 1000 job losses at City Hall? We have offered voluntary

:48:02.:48:06.

severance with the aim of balancing the budget, we set a legal budget

:48:07.:48:10.

for this year which we must do. Unfortunately, we have had to go to

:48:11.:48:14.

the workforce. What we have said is I think many aspects of austerity

:48:15.:48:18.

are a full sick on. They may save money in the short-term but because

:48:19.:48:22.

they cut back on our ability as local government to invest in

:48:23.:48:26.

preventative around public health and the size of the workforce, it

:48:27.:48:31.

will cost us in the years to come. Is there an appetite for more

:48:32.:48:38.

power... Let me do this in two ways. The people of Bristol, do they want

:48:39.:48:43.

more power devolved to their city? I think there was, and often, in the

:48:44.:48:47.

Brexit result as well, there was a bit of a spoof but I think it was

:48:48.:48:52.

indicative of our city, about people declaring an independent state. With

:48:53.:48:56.

a distinctive political culture? Yet and I think we need to respect that,

:48:57.:49:01.

looking towards the American model where city governments have genuine

:49:02.:49:06.

power. And tax-raising powers? Would you like that, too? I would but

:49:07.:49:11.

don't attach the tax-raising to me, tax management! This Conservative

:49:12.:49:19.

government has kind of started this process of empowering local

:49:20.:49:25.

government, cities, around cities, as it go nearly far enough for you

:49:26.:49:30.

-- it hasn't gone nearly far enough for you but do you detect an

:49:31.:49:32.

appetite in Whitehall to devolve more power to cities? It is

:49:33.:49:37.

difficult to know right now with the change of government. We are seeing

:49:38.:49:40.

where they stand but my understanding was the deals we

:49:41.:49:43.

struck around the devolution deal one for the West of England what the

:49:44.:49:47.

deal that was on the table so we can continue with that. We are entering

:49:48.:49:50.

into conversations now with the government about looking for

:49:51.:49:53.

devolution deals two, three and four. I will say from my sense, what

:49:54.:50:00.

we are not talking about is not just deluge as with powers. There's an

:50:01.:50:03.

element at which local government has to be able to grow into that

:50:04.:50:07.

because there could be a bunch of responsibility without the skill set

:50:08.:50:10.

and culture to be able to manage it. So walk before you can run? Exactly,

:50:11.:50:16.

we have to grow into it. In Bristol on Thursday, for example, we are

:50:17.:50:20.

pulling together 70-75 city leaders to say that shaping a place is not

:50:21.:50:24.

just about local government, it is about the way businesses interact

:50:25.:50:27.

the voluntary sector will -- voluntary sector, faith groups and

:50:28.:50:31.

local universities so we have do have a bigger solution. If the

:50:32.:50:36.

Labour leadership on site for city devolution? The core city leaders

:50:37.:50:40.

are and we are a major part of the party. I work that bit out but what

:50:41.:50:45.

about the party? We are getting a sympathetic ear. This is part of

:50:46.:50:50.

being here today and one of the things I will talk about on the

:50:51.:50:53.

floor tomorrow is that they need to support us to deliver. That is where

:50:54.:50:56.

you will see evidence of what Labour leadership candy but when I say not,

:50:57.:51:01.

I want to be clear that the fault lines of national politics don't

:51:02.:51:03.

always easily translate to the local level where we have to be very

:51:04.:51:08.

pragmatic and deliver. As I said, we are a cross-party cabinet. We work

:51:09.:51:11.

with the challenges of that but we know it is good that the city and it

:51:12.:51:16.

creates a difficult did -- different kind of political culture. What is

:51:17.:51:22.

the composition? Beside me, I have nine cabinet members, six Labour and

:51:23.:51:27.

a Liberal Democrat, a Green and a conservative. Does that broadly

:51:28.:51:32.

reflect the political balance of the city? It reflects all the elected

:51:33.:51:37.

parties apart from Ukip. You have to be more pragmatic, is what you are

:51:38.:51:41.

saying? You have executive power so rather than posturing, you have to

:51:42.:51:47.

deliver? Like I said, we have do deliver for the whole city. It is

:51:48.:51:50.

saying that the local government challenge is not simply about having

:51:51.:51:53.

political knock-about in the council chamber. We have to work with the

:51:54.:51:57.

chamber of commerce, the voluntary sector and some of those people are

:51:58.:52:00.

not interested in the knock-about. It is important we have meaningful

:52:01.:52:09.

political debate, I'm not undermining its importance but we

:52:10.:52:11.

are not just in the contest about who can get a headline in the local

:52:12.:52:14.

paper. We're working out how to deliver. At some point, local

:52:15.:52:16.

councillors have to deliver for people. That is the culture and the

:52:17.:52:19.

structure we are trying to build. When are you before re-election?

:52:20.:52:25.

2020. It is a four-year term like the London mayor? Are you up for

:52:26.:52:30.

another term? I'm enjoying it. It is a challenge and one of the aspects

:52:31.:52:33.

of politics that people don't always take on, I'm a human being, a father

:52:34.:52:38.

with children and adjusting is a challenge. It will never catch on!

:52:39.:52:43.

But it is an enjoyable, meaningful job and it means something for me to

:52:44.:52:48.

give back and for the city. What happens? I understand devolution to

:52:49.:52:53.

cities and you could see how that is working in a relatively coherent

:52:54.:52:57.

political entity but what about devolution for those folks who don't

:52:58.:53:02.

live in cities? We are, that is the devolution deal in the west of

:53:03.:53:06.

England. We are worked up with North East Somerset and South

:53:07.:53:10.

Gloucestershire, with heavy rural populations. But again, I meet the

:53:11.:53:14.

leaders of my neighbours and that is where we have to be very pragmatic

:53:15.:53:18.

and say, how do we work together? There is some baseline where we are

:53:19.:53:22.

delivering for local populations and they need good quality transport,

:53:23.:53:25.

education and public health and stable homes and employment

:53:26.:53:30.

opportunities. If you want to bring transport together and organise on a

:53:31.:53:33.

strategic level, do you need a Greater Bristol? Our devolution deal

:53:34.:53:39.

was signed up around a Metro mayor so it is not a Greater Bristol, I

:53:40.:53:44.

have to respect the sovereignty of my neighbours. Very diplomatic. It

:53:45.:53:49.

is not colonial expansion by Bristol but we need to work across

:53:50.:53:52.

boundaries which is the only way the economy is going to get the maximum

:53:53.:53:55.

benefit from having that kind of joined up leadership. Transport will

:53:56.:54:00.

only work cross boundary and to be honest, most people's lives

:54:01.:54:04.

transcend those boundaries anyway. People move for work, retail,

:54:05.:54:11.

education also. I know that you maintain there is a different

:54:12.:54:16.

dynamic to local government or city government. Not totally. De Vrij to

:54:17.:54:22.

Westminster and I understand that, and the concerns of Westminster are

:54:23.:54:26.

not always the concerns of Bristol or Manchester and so on. --

:54:27.:54:29.

different to Westminster. What is the take -- your take on the state

:54:30.:54:35.

of the Westminster party at the moment? It is challenging, to be

:54:36.:54:39.

perfectly frank. It was a very challenging leadership contest and

:54:40.:54:43.

it was challenging for me as a city leader and how I navigated it. I was

:54:44.:54:46.

clear with journalists that I would not comment and I don't think it

:54:47.:54:50.

would have helped me as a mayor or more effectiveness in Bristol so I

:54:51.:54:55.

put the city first. -- my effectiveness. We have to be serious

:54:56.:54:58.

about healing and reconciliation. The city needs it and if we are to

:54:59.:55:02.

be a party that is going to speak to a world which is full of fractures,

:55:03.:55:07.

whether it is in the Middle East or increasing in our own country in

:55:08.:55:11.

inequality, we have do show ability to hold ourselves together across

:55:12.:55:15.

difference, if we want to lead a country that bases its own

:55:16.:55:19.

fractures. Thank you for joining us. I must come down and see you. You

:55:20.:55:20.

would be welcome. Jeremy Corbyn has talked

:55:21.:55:22.

about offering an olive branch to Labour MPs opposed

:55:23.:55:25.

to his leadership of the party. The MPs want that olive branch

:55:26.:55:27.

to come in the form of elections that would allow MPs to choose

:55:28.:55:30.

at least some of the Shadow Cabinet. But what do activists

:55:31.:55:33.

here in Liverpool think? It is an issue here behind closed

:55:34.:55:35.

doors but let's bring Who should have the power

:55:36.:55:39.

to select the Shadow Cabinet? Jeremy Corbyn or MPs,

:55:40.:55:43.

like under the old system? Who should select the Shadow

:55:44.:55:47.

Cabinet, Jeremy Corbyn... Good leaders have to

:55:48.:55:49.

select their own Cabinet. What is this all actually really

:55:50.:55:54.

about? It is about having Chukka Umunna

:55:55.:56:03.

or Liz Kendall in the Shadow Cabinet which would be a symbol

:56:04.:56:06.

that the Labour Party is not simply John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn,

:56:07.:56:09.

it is bigger and wider than that. You should have had a third section

:56:10.:56:12.

which is being put forward in that you have the MPs,

:56:13.:56:15.

Jeremy Corbyn and the members having an equal say,

:56:16.:56:18.

then it is democratic and it is not him or him,

:56:19.:56:21.

it is all of us. Does it matter if they are

:56:22.:56:25.

elected or not? Just one per person,

:56:26.:56:28.

one member, one vote, There's Hilary Benn, who got sacked

:56:29.:56:32.

from the Shadow Cabinet by Jeremy Who should select the Shadow

:56:33.:56:42.

Cabinet, Jeremy Corbyn or MPs? Is that Angela Rayner trying to

:56:43.:56:50.

run away? Who is the biggest dud that has been

:56:51.:56:59.

the Shadow Cabinet? Do you want to split it in half,

:57:00.:57:08.

crack it like an egg? Would you rather be put

:57:09.:57:17.

in the Shadow Cabinet by the leader You wouldn't expect Theresa May

:57:18.:57:20.

to ring up Peter Bone and ask who should be

:57:21.:57:27.

at International Development? What they have to do

:57:28.:57:29.

is to stop sabotaging. Oh, well, let's start with Alan

:57:30.:57:38.

Johnson. This is a stunt by

:57:39.:57:45.

ill-informed people. There you go, the results

:57:46.:57:51.

are in and the party is split evenly down the middle, 50-50, in fact,

:57:52.:57:58.

just like the ruling That may be the first time that

:57:59.:58:13.

Adam's unscientific balls have probably reflected what the opinion

:58:14.:58:18.

is. We are joined by John Pienaar. Not long until the Shadow

:58:19.:58:24.

Chancellor's speech. But on the Shadow Cabinet, why would Mr Corbyn,

:58:25.:58:31.

having just won the leadership for a second time in a year, and over as

:58:32.:58:37.

much power to the PRB deduces Shadow Cabinet? I think he is keen to hand

:58:38.:58:42.

over as little power as he has do. The idea of a fully elected Shadow

:58:43.:58:46.

Cabinet, elected by fellow MPs, has been a way back for some of those

:58:47.:58:49.

who marched away from the Shadow Cabinet, giving a rude sign to

:58:50.:58:53.

Jeremy Corbyn on the way and since then so much has been said about

:58:54.:58:57.

Jeremy Corbyn's lack of basic competence, his inability to unite

:58:58.:58:59.

the party N alone appeal to the country, that you can't say those

:59:00.:59:03.

things. The idea from some of those quite senior show -- Shadow Cabinet

:59:04.:59:08.

figures is you can get back in if you have a mandate, not from Jeremy

:59:09.:59:11.

Corbyn but from other MPs would still leaves the question

:59:12.:59:14.

unanswered, how do you unsay what has been said. And when the

:59:15.:59:17.

questions will be asked by you and me every Sunday, do you now endorsed

:59:18.:59:20.

Jeremy Corbyn at the best possible Prime Minister, what do you say?

:59:21.:59:25.

I've had a lot of hesitation so far, and I'm sure you have as well. The

:59:26.:59:32.

number of the centrist MPs here say that what they hope will happen is

:59:33.:59:36.

Mr Corbyn and John McDonnell will strengthen their grip on the party.

:59:37.:59:40.

-- is that what will happen. Now they have the membership, and the

:59:41.:59:44.

membership in time could change the nature of the PLP, the Parliamentary

:59:45.:59:50.

party, they want to get a grip on national executive committee and the

:59:51.:59:54.

regional organisers and so on. Is this a long march through the

:59:55.:59:58.

institutions? I think that has been part of the plan, not said out loud

:59:59.:00:02.

but that has been part of the plans and stay one, pretty much, since

:00:03.:00:05.

Jeremy Corbyn came in, knowing perfectly well he was surrounded by

:00:06.:00:09.

mostly most members of Parliament so how do you consolidate your position

:00:10.:00:12.

in the party? You do it through the mass membership who have come

:00:13.:00:16.

swinging in, in enormous numbers, mobilising them, hard and in that

:00:17.:00:23.

way, you can, not bypass your MPs, but sort of bypass them and get the

:00:24.:00:26.

policies you want from the people who support you.

:00:27.:00:35.

On policy, tramadol about make probably the second most important

:00:36.:00:39.

speech of this week, the most important being by Jeremy Corbyn,

:00:40.:00:44.

will the flesh out what he means quick and not previous Labour

:00:45.:00:47.

governments have been interventionist, I remember Harold

:00:48.:00:51.

Wilson's government was. Michael has a times and I will get up early in

:00:52.:00:55.

the morning to intervene. Do we really know -- Michael Heseltine. To

:00:56.:00:59.

know what it means in terms of trying to bailout the steel

:01:00.:01:04.

industry? The short answer is no. Intervention is a good thing it is

:01:05.:01:07.

also specifically a good thing when you look at what happened to tapas

:01:08.:01:12.

deal, that is the example given. But I were talking about picking winners

:01:13.:01:15.

up and down the country, getting involved in firms in the north of

:01:16.:01:20.

England, the South West of England? We are not given that kind of detail

:01:21.:01:23.

and we can't get into the nitty-gritty unless you have that

:01:24.:01:27.

kind of detail to work with. Unless you know the strategy itself. What

:01:28.:01:33.

about Labour's position on the terms of Brexit? There seems now to be an

:01:34.:01:39.

acceptance by John McDonnell that we don't remain a member of the single

:01:40.:01:46.

market, but we will have unspecified, as yet, access to the

:01:47.:01:50.

single market. There is room for further clarification, put it that

:01:51.:01:53.

way. With the government and the opposition. A lot of clarification.

:01:54.:01:58.

In the case of the Labour leadership vision, John McDonnell, I was

:01:59.:02:01.

talking to him yesterday morning and he was saying look, you have got to

:02:02.:02:09.

respect the will of the referendum. Not going the Owen Smith root of

:02:10.:02:13.

let's have a second referendum but he left open rejecting the terms of

:02:14.:02:21.

Brexit, and then maybe putting opposition in the manifesto, which

:02:22.:02:24.

begs the enormous question if you oppose the deal and you put it in

:02:25.:02:28.

the manifesto and you win, then what do you do? Wouldn't that mean you

:02:29.:02:36.

would have to apply for membership again, and if you have to reapply

:02:37.:02:40.

for membership, would that not mean you accept the euro, the Schengen

:02:41.:02:45.

free movement, and I don't think they will give us the rebate back.

:02:46.:02:48.

We know about this process is once the deal is done, when the terms are

:02:49.:02:53.

agreed, and remember the Article 50 process is not about coming to a

:02:54.:02:57.

deal, you have two years to come to a position whether you like it or

:02:58.:03:01.

not at the end of you take it and it. But there is only one crack at

:03:02.:03:10.

this. It is either trying to get back in stay where you are without a

:03:11.:03:15.

deal, with no deal at all. Is their concern among some in the party that

:03:16.:03:22.

this emphasis on borrowing to invest, and quite eye watering sums

:03:23.:03:26.

of money being talked about, ?500 billion, though it is split up in

:03:27.:03:30.

various ways. There was meant to be a private sector involvement in

:03:31.:03:33.

there as well, all a little bit vague. But if over polling shows

:03:34.:03:40.

that the party isn't quite trusted to manage the books, is coming out

:03:41.:03:47.

as a binge borrower, which is the phrase the Tories will probably use

:03:48.:03:52.

colour something like that, is that sensible? Quite, Andrew. When Labour

:03:53.:03:58.

likes of 30 points also behind the government, in terms of trust in

:03:59.:04:01.

economic competence, there is an enormous mountain to climb. This

:04:02.:04:12.

morning I was telling listening to John McDonnell, and it sounds like

:04:13.:04:17.

rather a lot of money to me. However many notes you put on, it looks to

:04:18.:04:22.

the man in the street like ?100 billion of their money being

:04:23.:04:26.

borrowed up front in the expectation of the economy taking off and paying

:04:27.:04:31.

it back later on. We will be joined later on by Paul Mason. He might be

:04:32.:04:35.

in the flesh some of it out in advance of the speech. Let's take

:04:36.:04:38.

you into the conference will now and have a look inside. There is Len

:04:39.:04:43.

McCluskey, the head of the biggest union in the country, a big

:04:44.:04:47.

supporter of Jeremy Corbyn. We have heard that the party's energy

:04:48.:04:51.

policy, we have have the announcement that the party would

:04:52.:04:54.

put a stop to fracking, and as we have been hearing there have been

:04:55.:04:58.

speeches from the Shadow Defence Secretary, Clive Lewis. We wanted to

:04:59.:05:01.

speak to him but we have lost and somehow, and if he is watching, come

:05:02.:05:04.

and talk to us. Emily Thornberry has been speaking as well at that and

:05:05.:05:09.

ethical foreign policy. Of course we are waiting for the big speech of

:05:10.:05:13.

the day, John McDonnell's second autumn conference speech as Shadow

:05:14.:05:17.

Chancellor. While we wait, better to tell is what might be in store than

:05:18.:05:22.

journalist of Channel 4 provenance, now Labour activist, Paul Mason.

:05:23.:05:30.

Welcome. Threw I'm not sure about Labour activist, it sounds like I am

:05:31.:05:34.

going to leap over the desk at you. . Flesh out for us this investment

:05:35.:05:42.

plan, where will the money come from? The idea is he's going to

:05:43.:05:48.

borrow 250 billion, and that leveraging European investment bank

:05:49.:05:53.

money, 100 billion plus, and they are going to use it... He is not

:05:54.:05:59.

going to leveraged any European investment bank money, he's going to

:06:00.:06:03.

try to get private money in the same way as the EAB. They will use a

:06:04.:06:13.

variety of sources, but they are using the VIP as a model. They are

:06:14.:06:24.

going to bellow. -- -- EIB. What businesses want is a stable,

:06:25.:06:31.

predictable environment for long-term investment. Labour whether

:06:32.:06:35.

it is in opposition or power has to start spelling out a framework for

:06:36.:06:41.

that is. But as you alluded to earlier, once the answer to

:06:42.:06:44.

everything is not the market, the answer is very difficult to come up

:06:45.:06:47.

with any can come up with wrong answers. The challenge for John

:06:48.:06:50.

McDonnell is to start spelling out what at the micro level they want to

:06:51.:06:54.

concentrate on when the start spending the money. Does the

:06:55.:07:01.

National investment bank, the government borrows 100 billion on

:07:02.:07:04.

its balance sheet, and the national investment bank gets that hundred

:07:05.:07:11.

billion? That is my understanding, that they will create regional

:07:12.:07:14.

investment balance. I am not privy to the full details of the speech

:07:15.:07:17.

but I think the move from simply saying we are against austerity, we

:07:18.:07:23.

will end the austerity. Ending austerity is now mainstream, Vergini

:07:24.:07:26.

20 wants to do it, the Chinese, the IMF is saying that. Saying this is

:07:27.:07:31.

not insignificant, it moves a further piece of the global

:07:32.:07:34.

decision-making architecture, albeit they are not in power, in favour of

:07:35.:07:45.

that renewed physical activity. But Steve NIB, where I come from, that

:07:46.:07:49.

is news in brief, but as it comes with that version at Labour's

:07:50.:07:54.

understanding of what exit is starting to change. Before we were

:07:55.:08:01.

thinking spent on things like HS2, HS three, bridges, tunnels, the rest

:08:02.:08:05.

of it. I think Labour has come to understand that you don't

:08:06.:08:08.

necessarily do all of that. And you have to start thinking about

:08:09.:08:11.

community level investment. That is why there will be a big thing in

:08:12.:08:20.

McDonnell's speech about developing responsible at it. It will be quite

:08:21.:08:26.

easy to build a HS3 somewhere, and whether the communities that are

:08:27.:08:28.

pretty dire at the memo just watched the trains go by. There will be a

:08:29.:08:33.

renewed emphasis on fostering a more vibrant co-operative sector in

:08:34.:08:37.

Britain. We have got quite a week cooperative sector, and the

:08:38.:08:40.

countries like Spain have some giant corpse that only successful. We're

:08:41.:08:45.

being told the reason Clive Lewis, the shadow defence spokesman, could

:08:46.:08:51.

not join as is that in the words of somebody, he is in the leader 's

:08:52.:08:55.

office currently arguing about the speech! Apparently the unit is over

:08:56.:08:59.

Trident. He would have thought Labour would argue about Trident at

:09:00.:09:06.

a conference. Of course Lewis is on record of being pro-maintenance of

:09:07.:09:11.

it in a different firm, not Trident but cruise missiles. It was

:09:12.:09:15.

something to do with what is in his speech. Earle the curb and

:09:16.:09:18.

leadership is not a monolithic leadership, you could Clive Lewis,

:09:19.:09:23.

Emily Thornberry, both have a threw more nuanced position on defence

:09:24.:09:29.

than him. National investment bank will it be expected to make a

:09:30.:09:35.

return? I have no idea. One would expect that the return is measured

:09:36.:09:39.

by economic growth, increased tax receipts over ten or 20 years. I

:09:40.:09:46.

think it is a policy decision. In the design of it you would see it in

:09:47.:09:49.

the next phase. It is an idea that has been around the sometime in

:09:50.:09:53.

Labour thinking, and he announced the basic idea over the summer when

:09:54.:09:56.

they were fighting the leadership thing. I think he will emphasise now

:09:57.:10:01.

we need to move to the implementation process. Of course in

:10:02.:10:04.

a democracy we would say let's have the Treasury model, let's see the

:10:05.:10:09.

Office for Budget Responsibility model it and hope Labour develop

:10:10.:10:12.

policy. They haven't got any of those resources, because the

:10:13.:10:15.

government won't give them, and of course Gordon Brown didn't give it

:10:16.:10:18.

to the Tories when he was in power it. But there are big university

:10:19.:10:22.

departments we can get on board, think tanks that I think Fleming and

:10:23.:10:27.

ready do that. So I think the next phase is the detail, but the idea is

:10:28.:10:34.

it is not a very difficult idea in modern thinking that states have a

:10:35.:10:41.

national fund that they use to shape the national income. Where does it

:10:42.:10:46.

work? Scandinavia, it works in places where countries just

:10:47.:10:49.

basically take an activist approach to investment. Sometimes they don't

:10:50.:10:54.

actually need the National Investment Bank because they have

:10:55.:10:58.

such good banking sectors. Look at the German banking sector, at the

:10:59.:11:01.

land level, the regional level and the local level, they are able to

:11:02.:11:08.

mobilise capital and fund it. The German regional banks, they are down

:11:09.:11:12.

to seven now, they don't do infrastructure investments. They did

:11:13.:11:16.

at one point. They ended up almost going bust because they put so much

:11:17.:11:19.

money into American sub-prime, and these were state-owned banks.

:11:20.:11:26.

McIlroy absolutely, apropos of that we will see McDonnell emphasise

:11:27.:11:33.

again today that in supporting the city, the pass putting arrangement

:11:34.:11:37.

with the Unitt, they will not give them a free pass to go precisely the

:11:38.:11:41.

route that the German banks ended up with in 2008. To come back to your

:11:42.:11:45.

question, the idea of regional investment banks funded by the banks

:11:46.:11:55.

is not Marxism. The private money would only come in as a return.

:11:56.:11:59.

Private money is not getting any return on anything, as you know

:12:00.:12:04.

Andrew, right now. Long-term bonds style investment is producing in

:12:05.:12:10.

some senses negative returns. As we do the unorthodox monetary policy we

:12:11.:12:13.

can expect more and more of the world's assets to be yielding less.

:12:14.:12:18.

I think we are in a low interest rate environment, let's see what

:12:19.:12:22.

environment it is a photo when Labour came into power. I think the

:12:23.:12:25.

return for the long-term investor will not be the problem. The problem

:12:26.:12:30.

is the execution, not ending up like Harold Wilson, backing a bunch of

:12:31.:12:33.

bad projects and doing this in a smart way and learning from the

:12:34.:12:39.

best. Would you pick winners? You have two. That is what the national

:12:40.:12:42.

enterprise board tried to do as well as mail out losers. What Labour has

:12:43.:12:46.

been learning from and being scored by, the work of people like Marianna

:12:47.:13:00.

Mazzucato. I know her work. You create an environment where you try

:13:01.:13:04.

to shape investment towards specific technologies and outcomes. One of

:13:05.:13:08.

those would-be green technology. It is a big thing waiting to happen in

:13:09.:13:16.

Britain, along the German lines. President Obama tried that. He put

:13:17.:13:22.

in a substantial amount of federal funding into green energy projects.

:13:23.:13:27.

Sa Lynda Bellingham the most famous one. It was $520 million, where is

:13:28.:13:34.

that money today? It proves the point. It is all gone. It proves the

:13:35.:13:42.

point that public investment strategies can go wrong. We are not

:13:43.:13:46.

going round a primrose path here, it is a difficult thing to do that we

:13:47.:13:50.

have to do it because we just don't want to leave the community after

:13:51.:13:53.

community setting with close ties streets, no transport links, no

:13:54.:13:57.

schools, under skilled. Firms within 20 miles of here missing thousands

:13:58.:14:03.

of Ph.D. Is because they cannot turn people with education into the right

:14:04.:14:06.

skills. The government has to do is to bridge the gaps. The example of

:14:07.:14:14.

Scandinavia, where you have long-term infrastructure investment,

:14:15.:14:16.

in those Scandinavian funds, they are backed by sovereign wealth. We

:14:17.:14:22.

haven't got any in this country. We are talking about a sovereign great

:14:23.:14:26.

hole in the ground. You are not talking about a sovereign fund. With

:14:27.:14:31.

Scandinavia that is where the structure comes from. If you have

:14:32.:14:35.

1.6 trillion debt, that has to be paid down first. The Norwegian is

:14:36.:14:42.

the big sovereign fund. They invest for people's pensions for the

:14:43.:14:46.

long-term payment of Norwegians pensions. It is a different concept.

:14:47.:14:53.

What you're hearing is a very borrow to invest strategy. He knows, they

:14:54.:14:59.

know, they need the expertise to turn it into reality, and that the

:15:00.:15:04.

design stage is just one stage of it. What happens if you lose all the

:15:05.:15:09.

money? How are you going to lose the money? Of course you could build dad

:15:10.:15:14.

projects coming could back hover crafts, we didn't need hovercraft in

:15:15.:15:19.

the end. Concorde? I quite liked Concord, I never went on it, I think

:15:20.:15:23.

he probably did. Yes, courtesy of the taxpayer. Yes, when we educate

:15:24.:15:33.

people from GCSE standard to Ph.D. Standard and they go into the

:15:34.:15:37.

workforce, the taxpayers invest in their skills, and we, the people,

:15:38.:15:42.

get tax back from their wages, and we get the fact that we have more

:15:43.:15:47.

innovative businesses. That is an investment, isn't it? The old BBC

:15:48.:15:52.

isn't against investing in skills and infrastructure? Of course not,

:15:53.:15:55.

but you can see a stroke return from investing in skills. Particularly

:15:56.:16:01.

the stems goes we are short of commerce science, technology,

:16:02.:16:03.

engineering, maths, there is a straight return, long-term return at

:16:04.:16:08.

a straight return to the country. That is different from investing in

:16:09.:16:12.

a supersonic plane by the state, that allows rich people to travel at

:16:13.:16:16.

high speeds, courtesy of working class taxpayers.

:16:17.:16:20.

I don't think we will be building Concorde either. But when Labour

:16:21.:16:26.

tried to outline this earlier, they put skills and human capital --

:16:27.:16:31.

human capital into the category of long-term investment. That was

:16:32.:16:34.

something at the time the old Cameron Osborne people trying to

:16:35.:16:37.

defend austerity were quite worried about because they were saying, "You

:16:38.:16:42.

are trying to get current spending, education spending, into an

:16:43.:16:45.

infrastructure fund", and they are manifestly going to try to do that

:16:46.:16:51.

if they are going to -- if they get power. We have just lead the

:16:52.:16:58.

surprise announcement from John McDonnell is that Labour would

:16:59.:17:01.

increase the National Living Wage to ?10. It is a kind of, why not ?11?

:17:02.:17:08.

By 2020. It will be close to ?10 by 2020 so it is not radical. It is

:17:09.:17:13.

closing the gap between the official government specified minimum wage

:17:14.:17:16.

and the living wage that is left over from the previous

:17:17.:17:22.

administration. My understanding is, what we now call... Let's just call

:17:23.:17:25.

it the minimum wage because that it would it is, that the new minimum

:17:26.:17:34.

wage will be about ?9.50 by 2019 anyway so the Tories could do that

:17:35.:17:39.

if they got back in in 2020. If you add to that rigid enforcement

:17:40.:17:41.

because the problem that working people who may be on their lunch

:17:42.:17:45.

break, short and though it may be, watching this will know is that all

:17:46.:17:49.

kinds of employers are chipping away at the base level with all kinds of

:17:50.:17:52.

fines, you know, charges, uniform costs. A Labour Inspectorate plus an

:17:53.:17:59.

active trade union movement that goes to employers and says they are

:18:00.:18:02.

not going to get away with it, the baseline is a ?10 per hour minimum

:18:03.:18:05.

wage by John McDonnell will signal that we want a high wage economy.

:18:06.:18:10.

Conservatives and Labour before them have built a low and stagnant wage

:18:11.:18:15.

economy to revive demand. This is pure Keynesianism, we need wage

:18:16.:18:19.

share of the economy to rise. One way of that is to raise the minimum

:18:20.:18:23.

wage and the other way to create more high skilled, high-paying jobs,

:18:24.:18:26.

hard to do but having the government behind it, not saying the market

:18:27.:18:30.

does it, is the essential difference now between radical social democracy

:18:31.:18:33.

which is what we have seen reborn in this hall, and stagnant, stale, old

:18:34.:18:39.

conservatism. It is the way you tell them! Of course, the more you put

:18:40.:18:43.

the minimum wage up, the more enforcement becomes important,

:18:44.:18:47.

doesn't it? Some employers, unscrupulous employers, will have an

:18:48.:18:50.

incentive to get round the minimum wage. You need to be seen to be

:18:51.:18:55.

enforcing it. That is so and the argument goes that it has been in

:18:56.:18:58.

force to anything like the kind of degree it might have been so far,

:18:59.:19:01.

there are still people working under the feeling all over the country. It

:19:02.:19:05.

is a fairly incremental increase. The TUC have been calling for a ?10

:19:06.:19:09.

minimum wage for a couple of years and Labour were nearly there at the

:19:10.:19:14.

time of the last election. As a big announcement goes, it is not exactly

:19:15.:19:18.

an earthquake. You might have been briefed by the wrong brief, who

:19:19.:19:23.

knows? You think it might be more than that? I think in terms of the

:19:24.:19:26.

biggest announcement he is going to make the man who knows? I don't see

:19:27.:19:31.

this as a massive, game changing thing, it is splashing out

:19:32.:19:34.

investment fund. I think there will be words about Co-op 's and some

:19:35.:19:40.

intent to do it. You might see some personnel changes announced. Who

:19:41.:19:47.

knows? Where? We are not getting a Shadow Cabinet reshuffle but I think

:19:48.:19:52.

over conference, we have begun to see people say... Let's go to the

:19:53.:19:56.

hall now. John McDonnell is going to the stage. A number of the delegates

:19:57.:20:00.

already getting on their feet to welcome him. So we will now hear

:20:01.:20:07.

from the Shadow Chancellor and we are expecting a number of policy

:20:08.:20:10.

announcements. John McDonnell. Wait until you hear what I have got

:20:11.:20:15.

to say! LAUGHTER Now the leadership election is over,

:20:16.:20:19.

I tell you, we have to become a government in waiting. APPLAUSE

:20:20.:20:27.

And election could come at any time. Theresa May has said that she will

:20:28.:20:34.

not be calling an early election. But when could anyone trust the word

:20:35.:20:40.

of a Tory leader? We have to prepare ourselves are not just to fight an

:20:41.:20:44.

election, but also for moving into government. So to do that

:20:45.:20:49.

successfully, we have to have the policies and the plans for

:20:50.:20:52.

implementation on the shelf in place for when we enter government,

:20:53.:20:56.

whenever that election comes. So everybody in the party, at every

:20:57.:21:01.

level, and in every role, needs to appreciate the sense of urgency of

:21:02.:21:06.

this task. In this speech, I want to address some of the key issues we

:21:07.:21:11.

will face and how we will face them. First, though, we need to appreciate

:21:12.:21:14.

the mess that the Tories are leaving behind when we go into government.

:21:15.:21:20.

Six years ago, six years on from when they promised to eliminate the

:21:21.:21:23.

government deficit in five years, they are nowhere near that goal. The

:21:24.:21:28.

national debt burden was supposed to be falling by last year and it is

:21:29.:21:33.

still rising. In monetary terms, it now stands at ?1.6 trillion. Our

:21:34.:21:40.

productivity has fallen far behind each hour worked in the US or

:21:41.:21:46.

Germany or France. It is one third more productive that each hour

:21:47.:21:50.

worked here. Our economy is failing on productivity because the Tories

:21:51.:21:53.

are failing to deliver the investment it needs. Government

:21:54.:21:58.

investment is still plans to fall in every year remaining of this

:21:59.:22:04.

Parliament. -- plans to fall. In the real world economy that our people

:22:05.:22:07.

live in, wages are still lower than they were before the global

:22:08.:22:12.

financial crisis in 2008. They are now at least -- there are now at

:22:13.:22:16.

least 800,000 people on zero hours contracts, unable to plan from one

:22:17.:22:21.

week to the next and the number continues to rise. There's Nellie

:22:22.:22:26.

500,000 in bogus self-employment. 86% of austerity cuts have fallen on

:22:27.:22:30.

women. Tragically, there are nearly 4 million children living in

:22:31.:22:34.

poverty. This isn't right, is it? In the fifth richest economy in the

:22:35.:22:41.

world, poverty on that scale. So let's talk about the immediate

:22:42.:22:46.

issues facing us. On Brexit, we campaigned to Remain and we

:22:47.:22:49.

campaigned hard. But we have to respect the decision of the

:22:50.:22:54.

referendum. But that doesn't mean we have two acts that what the Tories

:22:55.:22:58.

serve up for our future relationship with Europe. -- have two except

:22:59.:23:03.

what. Since Brexit, the Tories have come up with no plan whatsoever.

:23:04.:23:07.

They have no clue. Half of them want a hard Brexit, to walk away from 30

:23:08.:23:12.

years of investment in our relationship with Europe. Some are

:23:13.:23:15.

just paralysed by the scale of the mess they created. So what we will

:23:16.:23:19.

do is we will be working with our socialist and social Democrat

:23:20.:23:23.

colleagues across Europe and our aim is to create a new Europe which

:23:24.:23:26.

builds upon the benefits of the EU but tackles the perceived this

:23:27.:23:32.

benefits. I set out in Labour's red lines on the Brexit negotiations a

:23:33.:23:36.

few days after the vote, so let's get it straight. We have to protect

:23:37.:23:41.

jobs. We will seek to preserve access to the single market for

:23:42.:23:49.

goods and services. APPLAUSE Today, access to the single market

:23:50.:23:53.

requires free movement of labour. But we will address the concerns

:23:54.:23:57.

that people have raised in the undercutting of wages and conditions

:23:58.:24:00.

and the pressure on local public services. I tell you this, we will

:24:01.:24:06.

not let the Tories bargain away our workers' writes, either. APPLAUSE

:24:07.:24:14.

We will defend the rights of EU National that live and work here,

:24:15.:24:17.

and UK citizens currently living and working in Europe. APPLAUSE

:24:18.:24:26.

We'd were all appalled at the attacks that took place on the

:24:27.:24:28.

Polish community in our country following the Brexit wrote. Let's be

:24:29.:24:36.

clear, as a party, we will always stand up against racism and

:24:37.:24:45.

xenophobia in any form. APPLAUSE In the negotiations, we also want

:24:46.:24:52.

Britain to keep its stake in the European investment bank. At the

:24:53.:24:59.

centre of the negotiations is Britain's financial services

:25:00.:25:00.

industry. Our financial services have been placed under threat as a

:25:01.:25:04.

result of the votes to leave. Labour has said clearly we will support

:25:05.:25:10.

access to European markets for the financial sector. But our financial

:25:11.:25:14.

services must understand that 2008 must never happen again. We must

:25:15.:25:20.

never... APPLAUSE The message is clear to them, we

:25:21.:25:25.

will not tolerate a return to the casino economy that contributed to

:25:26.:25:31.

that crash, ever again. We will support financial services where

:25:32.:25:34.

they deliver a clear benefit for the whole community, not just enriching

:25:35.:25:39.

a lucky few. We will work with the finance sector to develop its new

:25:40.:25:43.

deal with finance for the British people. We will fight for the best

:25:44.:25:46.

possible Brexit deal for the British people. And there will be no more

:25:47.:25:57.

support for TTip or any other trade deal that promotes deregulation or

:25:58.:26:02.

privatisation here or across Europe. APPLAUSE

:26:03.:26:08.

And we will make sure that any future Labour government has the

:26:09.:26:12.

power to intervene in our economy in interests of the whole country. For

:26:13.:26:16.

Britain to prosper in that new Europe and of the world stage, our

:26:17.:26:20.

next major challenge is to call a halt to this government's austerity

:26:21.:26:24.

programme. The Conservatives... APPLAUSE

:26:25.:26:29.

The Conservative Party built upon the disaster of the 2008 financial

:26:30.:26:33.

crisis by introducing an austerity programme that has made the impact

:26:34.:26:37.

of the economic crisis more prolonged, protected the

:26:38.:26:41.

corporations and the rich, and made the rest of society pay for the

:26:42.:26:45.

mistakes and greed of the speculators that caused the crash.

:26:46.:26:49.

Last year, this conference determined that this party would

:26:50.:26:53.

oppose austerity and that is exactly what we have done. We have had some

:26:54.:27:00.

successes. We forced the reversal of tax credit cuts. We also thought and

:27:01.:27:06.

won to have the personal independence payments cut scrapped.

:27:07.:27:11.

APPLAUSE -- fought and won. Sometimes in this

:27:12.:27:15.

movement, we don't thank people enough so I want to thank Owen Smith

:27:16.:27:18.

for the work he has done working with Jeremy to defeat the Tories on

:27:19.:27:20.

this issue. APPLAUSE And I want to thank Angela Smith and

:27:21.:27:34.

her team in the Lords for the terrific work the Lords team has

:27:35.:27:43.

done to defeat the Tories. APPLAUSE I say that as someone who has

:27:44.:27:47.

campaigned to abolish them for 30 years! I am having a rethink! These

:27:48.:27:51.

are tangible victories that are making a real difference to people's

:27:52.:27:56.

lives. I tell you, this is what we can achieve, when we are united.

:27:57.:28:06.

APPLAUSE So when we go into government

:28:07.:28:11.

United, be clear, be absolutely clear, we will end this government's

:28:12.:28:15.

austerity programme that has damaged so many lives and so many

:28:16.:28:19.

communities. But the first step, yes, is opposing austerity, the

:28:20.:28:23.

second is creating the alternative. So exactly as our economic adviser,

:28:24.:28:27.

Nobel Prize winner Joe Stiglitz said, we have to rewrite the rules

:28:28.:28:32.

of the economy. We will rewrite the rules for the benefit of working

:28:33.:28:36.

people on taxes, on investment and how our economic institutions work.

:28:37.:28:41.

On tax, we know we can't run the best public services in the world on

:28:42.:28:44.

a flagging economy with a tax system that does not tax fairly or

:28:45.:28:53.

effectively. I want to congratulate a group of people as well, and

:28:54.:28:57.

Jonathan Reynolds in particular, because the criticisms on the left

:28:58.:29:00.

that he is a representative of came up with their slogan, the hashtag,

:29:01.:29:07.

Patriots pay their taxes. It is a great slogan. Patriots to pay their

:29:08.:29:17.

taxes. -- do pay. APPLAUSE Labour has already set the pace on

:29:18.:29:20.

tackling tax avoidance and tax evasion. We launched our tax

:29:21.:29:25.

transparency and enforcement programme to force the government

:29:26.:29:29.

into action. Again, I would like to thank Rebecca Lauren Baillie for

:29:30.:29:32.

leading the Labour charge in Parliament to hold the tax dodgers

:29:33.:29:40.

to account. APPLAUSE She has been ably backed up by any

:29:41.:29:44.

member of our team, petered out, who has again stepped into the breach

:29:45.:29:48.

and fought in Parliament for every principle we have put forward. --

:29:49.:29:57.

Peter Dowd. And I want to congratulate Caroline Flint, who

:29:58.:30:01.

forced an amendment to the Finance Bill, to ensure country by country

:30:02.:30:04.

reporting is now back on the agenda. APPLAUSE

:30:05.:30:14.

The publication of the Panama Papers through sunlight on the scale of tax

:30:15.:30:18.

evasion and avoidance. Some of the largest firms in the City of London

:30:19.:30:23.

are up to it -- up to their necks in it. HSBC alone accounted for more

:30:24.:30:29.

than 2300 shell companies established to help the super-rich

:30:30.:30:33.

duck their taxes. In government, we will end the scourge of tax

:30:34.:30:40.

avoidance. We will end it. APPLAUSE We will create a new tax enforcement

:30:41.:30:49.

unit at HMRC, doubling the number of staff investigating wealthy tax

:30:50.:30:55.

avoidance. We will... APPLAUSE We will ban tax dodging companies

:30:56.:30:58.

from winning public sector contracts. APPLAUSE

:30:59.:31:06.

And we will... APPLAUSE And we will ensure that all British

:31:07.:31:12.

Crown dependencies and overseas territories introduce a full, public

:31:13.:31:16.

register of company owners and beneficiaries. We will throw light

:31:17.:31:20.

on where the tax dodgers are hiding their money. APPLAUSE

:31:21.:31:30.

A review of HMRC has also revealed the corporate capture of the tax

:31:31.:31:37.

system, and how staff cuts are undermining our ability to create

:31:38.:31:42.

the taxes we need. I would like to thank the team for the expertise

:31:43.:31:45.

they have provided us in drawing up this review. The next stage will be

:31:46.:31:55.

to develop the legislation and international agreements needed to

:31:56.:31:59.

close tax havens and end tax abuse. And I would believe this assurance,

:32:00.:32:03.

when we go back into government will make sure HMRC has the staffing, the

:32:04.:32:07.

resources and the legal powers to close down the tax avoidance

:32:08.:32:10.

industry that has grown up so in this country. APPLAUSE

:32:11.:32:20.

But we have to do more than stop tax avoidance. The burden of taxation as

:32:21.:32:24.

a whole now fails to heavily on those least able to pay full stop so

:32:25.:32:28.

let me make it clear, in this coming period we will be developing the

:32:29.:32:33.

policies that will shift the tax burden fairly away from those who

:32:34.:32:36.

earn wages and salaries and onto those who hold wealth. APPLAUSE

:32:37.:32:46.

Turning to investment, as I have said before, labour as a party of

:32:47.:32:50.

government needs to think not just about how we spend money, but how we

:32:51.:32:56.

earn it. I have announced a ?250 billion investment programme that

:32:57.:32:59.

will ensure no community is left behind. This is the scale of

:33:00.:33:02.

investment that independent experts say will start to bring Britain's

:33:03.:33:06.

infrastructure into the 21st century. It means putting the

:33:07.:33:12.

investment in place that will transform our energy system,

:33:13.:33:15.

providing cheap, low carbon electricity. It means ensuring that

:33:16.:33:19.

every plant in the country has access to superfast broadband that

:33:20.:33:23.

during the best in the world. It means delivering the transport

:33:24.:33:28.

deliveries, including HS3 in the north-west of England, to unlock the

:33:29.:33:30.

potential of the whole country. But for too long now, major decisions

:33:31.:33:35.

about what and where to invest have been taken by Whitehall and the

:33:36.:33:41.

city. The result? And investment and decline across the country, so it's

:33:42.:33:44.

time for our regions and localities to take control, take back control.

:33:45.:33:53.

So we will create new institutions not run by the old elite circles,

:33:54.:34:00.

are National Investment Bank well sustain a new, more productive

:34:01.:34:04.

economy. It will be backed up by a network of regional development

:34:05.:34:08.

banks, with a clear-cut mandate to supply finance to regional and local

:34:09.:34:15.

economies. It is also a disgrace that Arsenal businesses can't get

:34:16.:34:18.

the finances they need to grow. Our financial system is letting them

:34:19.:34:23.

down badly at the moment. The new regional develop and banks will have

:34:24.:34:27.

a mandate to provide the long-term investment they need, but we will go

:34:28.:34:31.

further than this. We will shake up our major corporations work and

:34:32.:34:33.

change how our economy is owned and managed. We will clamp down on the

:34:34.:34:39.

abuses of power at the very top. Under Labour, there will be Nemeth

:34:40.:34:46.

Philip Greens at all. APPLAUSE We will legislate to write company

:34:47.:34:57.

law to prevent it. We will introduce legislation to ban company is taking

:34:58.:34:59.

on excessive debt to pay out dividends to shareholders. And we

:35:00.:35:10.

will rewrite the tax takeover code to make sure every takeover proposal

:35:11.:35:16.

has a clear plan in place to pay workers and pensioners. We will

:35:17.:35:22.

protect their pensions. APPLAUSE But we can do more to transform our

:35:23.:35:29.

economy for working people. Theresa May has spoken about worker

:35:30.:35:33.

representation on boards. It is good to see her following our lead. But

:35:34.:35:38.

we know that meant workers own and manage their companies, those

:35:39.:35:41.

businesses last longer and are more productive. If we want patient,

:35:42.:35:46.

long-term investment and high-quality firms, what better way

:35:47.:35:50.

to do it than to give employees themselves a clear stake in both. So

:35:51.:35:56.

Corporation and collaboration is how the emerging economy of the future

:35:57.:36:01.

functions. So we will look to at least double our co-operative sector

:36:02.:36:05.

in this country, so it matches those in Germany and the US. APPLAUSE

:36:06.:36:15.

We will build on the good example of Labour councils like Preston here in

:36:16.:36:19.

the north-west, using public procurement to support cooperative

:36:20.:36:21.

is whether they can. Yes, we will help to create 200 local energy

:36:22.:36:27.

companies and 1000 energy cooperatives, breaking the monopoly

:36:28.:36:32.

of the big six producers. APPLAUSE We will introduce a right to own,

:36:33.:36:45.

giving workers first refusal on a proposal for a worker ownership when

:36:46.:36:48.

a company faces change of ownership foreclosure. A right to own for

:36:49.:36:59.

workers. So the next Labour government will promote a menace

:37:00.:37:02.

once in cooperative and worker ownership. The new leadership

:37:03.:37:05.

develop and banks will be tasked with supplying the capital that a

:37:06.:37:09.

new generation of business owners will need to succeed. We will

:37:10.:37:13.

support business hubs around the country. I visited Make Liverpool

:37:14.:37:22.

yesterday, the next Labour government will provide support to

:37:23.:37:25.

established business hubs in every town and city, every town and city.

:37:26.:37:31.

APPLAUSE We know the economy is changing,

:37:32.:37:35.

with more people self employed than ever before. We need to think

:37:36.:37:41.

creatively about how to respond, so we'll be taking a serious look about

:37:42.:37:44.

how to make the welfare system better support the self-employed.

:37:45.:37:50.

I'm also interested in the potential of a universal Basic income. I want

:37:51.:37:53.

to learn from the experiments that are taking place across Europe. But

:37:54.:37:59.

you know, until working people have proper protections at work, the

:38:00.:38:01.

labour market will always work against them. So to achieve fair

:38:02.:38:07.

wages, the next Labour government will look to implement the

:38:08.:38:15.

recommendations of the report. We will reintroduce sectoral collective

:38:16.:38:19.

bargaining across the economy, ending the race to the bottom.

:38:20.:38:20.

APPLAUSE And I give you this commitment: in

:38:21.:38:34.

the first 100 days of our Labour government, we will repeal of the

:38:35.:38:35.

trade union act. CHEERING Because what happens when trade

:38:36.:38:53.

unions are weakened? I'll tell you what happens, over 200,000 workers

:38:54.:38:58.

in the UK are receiving less than the minimum wage set down in love.

:38:59.:39:03.

This is totally unacceptable. Under Labour, we will properly resource

:39:04.:39:06.

HMRC and the gang masters and labour abuse authority to make sure they

:39:07.:39:11.

are no more national scandals like Mike Ashley Sports Direct. APPLAUSE

:39:12.:39:22.

And our vision for a higher wage economy with everyone receiving

:39:23.:39:24.

their Sergi 's doesn't end there. I have spoken before about building on

:39:25.:39:29.

the great achievements of previous Labour governments will stop yes,

:39:30.:39:33.

and one of the greatest achievement of the government elected in 1997

:39:34.:39:38.

was the establishment of a national minimum wage, lifting millions out

:39:39.:39:42.

of poverty. And I pay tribute to that government for doing it.

:39:43.:39:47.

APPLAUSE But, remember, remember, the Tories

:39:48.:39:55.

opposed it, claiming it would cost millions of jobs. But, united

:39:56.:40:01.

purpose, we won the argument. Under the next Labour government, everyone

:40:02.:40:05.

will earn enough to live on. When we win the next election, we will write

:40:06.:40:11.

into law a real living wage. APPLAUSE

:40:12.:40:24.

We'll charge a new living wage bloody, and independent forecasts

:40:25.:40:36.

suggest this will be over ?10 an hour. This will be part of our new

:40:37.:40:44.

bargain in the workplace. But we know that small businesses need to

:40:45.:40:48.

be part of that bargain, and that's why we'll also be publishing

:40:49.:40:52.

proposals to help businesses implement the living wage,

:40:53.:40:55.

particularly small and medium-sized companies. We will be examining a

:40:56.:40:59.

number of ideas, including the expansion and reform of employment

:41:00.:41:01.

allowance, to make sure this historic step forward, improving the

:41:02.:41:06.

living standards of the poorest paid, does not impact upon hours of

:41:07.:41:11.

employment. Backed up by our commitment to investment, this means

:41:12.:41:15.

we will end the scourge of poverty pay in this country, once and for.

:41:16.:41:20.

APPLAUSE -- once and for all. Decent pay is

:41:21.:41:26.

not just fundamentally a right, it is good for business, it is good for

:41:27.:41:29.

employees and it is good for Britain. But we need a new deal

:41:30.:41:33.

across the whole of our economy, because whatever we do in Britain,

:41:34.:41:37.

the old rules of the global economy are being rewritten for us. The wins

:41:38.:41:42.

of globalisation are blowing in a different direction now, they are

:41:43.:41:45.

playing against the belief in the free market, and in favour of

:41:46.:41:49.

intervention. Look at the steel crisis, with the world market

:41:50.:41:52.

flooded by cheap steel, major governments moved to particular

:41:53.:41:57.

their domestic steel injuries forced up ours did not until we pushed them

:41:58.:42:02.

into it, as a result of a community and trade union and Labour campaign.

:42:03.:42:06.

But they are so blinkered by the eulogy that they can't see how the

:42:07.:42:10.

world is changing. Good business doesn't need no government. Good

:42:11.:42:14.

business needs good government. APPLAUSE

:42:15.:42:23.

And the best governments today, right the way across the world,

:42:24.:42:26.

recognise that they need to support their economies, because the way the

:42:27.:42:34.

world works is changing. For decades, manufacturing jobs

:42:35.:42:36.

disappeared, as producers look for the cheapest labour they could find.

:42:37.:42:41.

Today, one in six manufacturers in the UK are bringing jobs back to

:42:42.:42:45.

Britain. That's because production today is about locating cluster

:42:46.:42:48.

markets and drawing upon the highly skilled labour and high-quality

:42:49.:42:53.

investment. Digital technology means production can be smaller scale, in

:42:54.:42:58.

smaller, faster firms, dependent on cooperation and collaboration. Not

:42:59.:43:03.

to eat dog competition. The economies that are making best use

:43:04.:43:08.

of this shift are those with governments that understand it is

:43:09.:43:12.

taking place, and support new industries and small businesses. So

:43:13.:43:17.

we could be part of that change here. There is huge potential in

:43:18.:43:20.

this country, and in every part of the country. We have an immense

:43:21.:43:26.

heritage of scientific research, and engineering expertise with that

:43:27.:43:29.

today, our science system is a world leader. We have natural resources

:43:30.:43:33.

that could make us world leaders in renewables. We have talent and

:43:34.:43:37.

ambition in every part of the country, yet at every stage, we have

:43:38.:43:40.

a government that fails to reach that potential. It has cut

:43:41.:43:46.

scientific research spending, slashed subsidies to renewables,

:43:47.:43:49.

threatening tens of thousands of jobs, and it plans to cut essential

:43:50.:43:54.

investment in transport, energy and housing across the country. Be

:43:55.:44:01.

certain, the next Labour government will be an interventionist

:44:02.:44:03.

government, we will not stand by like this one and the Ahki

:44:04.:44:08.

industries flounder and our future prosperity but at risk. When we

:44:09.:44:13.

return to government, we will implement a comprehensive industrial

:44:14.:44:15.

strategy, developed in partnership with trade unions and employers and

:44:16.:44:19.

the wider community. After Brexit, we want to see a red assaults in

:44:20.:44:24.

British manufacturing, and as we have committed ourselves, our

:44:25.:44:28.

government will create an entrepreneurial state that works

:44:29.:44:31.

with wealth creators, the workers and the entrepreneurs, to create the

:44:32.:44:34.

products and the markets that will secure our long-term prosperity. Let

:44:35.:44:39.

me just say this in conclusion, on a personal note. I'm so pleased that

:44:40.:44:45.

this conference is being held in Liverpool. I was born in this city,

:44:46.:44:53.

not far from here. My dad was a Liverpool blocker and my mum was a

:44:54.:44:56.

cleaner, and they worked for 30 years behind a BHS store counter. I

:44:57.:45:02.

was part of that 1960s generation -- Liverpool dock. We lived in not so

:45:03.:45:05.

sure logical studies have described as some of the worst slum conditions

:45:06.:45:10.

that have existed in this country. We just called it home. As the

:45:11.:45:14.

result of a Labour government, I remember the day when we celebrated

:45:15.:45:18.

moving into our council house. My brother and I had a bedroom of our

:45:19.:45:22.

own for the first time, a garden front and rear. Both of us were born

:45:23.:45:26.

in NHS hospitals, both of us had a great free education. There was an

:45:27.:45:31.

atmosphere of eternal optimism. Our generation always thought that from

:45:32.:45:34.

here on there would always be a steady improvement in people's

:45:35.:45:37.

living standards. We expected the lives that each generation would

:45:38.:45:42.

improve upon the last. But successive Tory governments put an

:45:43.:45:47.

end to that. Under Jeremy's leadership, I believe that we can

:45:48.:45:51.

restore that optimism, people's faith in the future. So I say this,

:45:52.:45:56.

in the birthplace of John Lennon, it falls to us to inspire people to

:45:57.:45:57.

imagine again. APPLAUSE Imagined the society... APPLAUSE

:45:58.:46:13.

Imagine... Imagine the society we can create. It is a society that is

:46:14.:46:19.

radically transformed, radically fairer, more equal, more democratic,

:46:20.:46:24.

yes, based upon a prosperous economy that is economically and

:46:25.:46:28.

environmentally sustainable but where that prosperity is shared by

:46:29.:46:32.

all. That is our vision to rebuild and transform Britain. In this

:46:33.:46:37.

party, you no longer have to whisper its name, it is called socialism.

:46:38.:46:49.

APPLAUSE STUDIO: And John McDonnell finishes

:46:50.:46:54.

his speech to the Labour Party conference with the word solidarity,

:46:55.:46:58.

as he did last year but before that, saying socialism was no longer a

:46:59.:47:01.

word that you had to apologise for in the Labour Party. He finished by

:47:02.:47:05.

quoting John Lennon and Imagine in the city of Liverpool, which was a

:47:06.:47:12.

natural thing to do. He said there would be no more support for

:47:13.:47:15.

transatlantic trade deals of the sort that is currently being

:47:16.:47:19.

negotiated, under a Labour government, HMRC would be much

:47:20.:47:22.

tougher in enforcing those who were trying to dodge or evade tax, no

:47:23.:47:28.

public contracts for tax evading companies, he said. He announced

:47:29.:47:35.

again the ?250 billion investment programme for a national investment

:47:36.:47:40.

bank, backed up by he says, regional investment banks throughout the

:47:41.:47:42.

country. He said there would be no more Philip greens under Labour. He

:47:43.:47:48.

wanted to double the size of the co-op sector. There would be a right

:47:49.:47:54.

to own for workers when companies came up for sale. Interesting to see

:47:55.:47:58.

how that would work but what was really popular was that he said he

:47:59.:48:02.

would repeal the trade union act in the first 100 days of a Labour

:48:03.:48:06.

government. Most of the reforms that were put in the Thatcher years and

:48:07.:48:10.

were left largely untouched in the Blair and Brown years. And he

:48:11.:48:15.

announced that he would want is the new minimum wage, well, he called it

:48:16.:48:21.

a new National Living Wage, from 2020 onwards, over ?10 per hour.

:48:22.:48:25.

Many other things in it too but that gives you a flavour of the kind of

:48:26.:48:28.

things he was proposing. John Pienaar?

:48:29.:48:30.

One of the benefits for John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn of

:48:31.:48:34.

winning the Civil War is they now have space to develop their ideas

:48:35.:48:37.

and set up what a future Labour government under Jeremy Corbyn would

:48:38.:48:40.

look like. The challenge for them is that we are listening and we would

:48:41.:48:44.

like to note what a Labour government under Jeremy Corbyn would

:48:45.:48:47.

look like. This is still obviously a very early stage of the process.

:48:48.:48:51.

There are any number of questions being stacked up here. And a

:48:52.:48:55.

requirement for some clarification. We spoke a moment ago about his

:48:56.:48:58.

comprehensive industrial strategy but what is that going to look like

:48:59.:49:02.

beyond being far more locally based? We know that is part of the pan and

:49:03.:49:06.

it is broadly socialist. The question of Europe and Brexit, he

:49:07.:49:09.

talked about access to the single market. What does that mean? The

:49:10.:49:13.

very web access implies some kind of compromise from full membership and

:49:14.:49:16.

all that goes with it. Now they will presumably have to be some kind of

:49:17.:49:19.

trade-off with freedom of movement. That was a big question with no real

:49:20.:49:23.

answers beyond what we have heard before about the need to take on the

:49:24.:49:26.

threat of wages being undercut and all of that kind of thing, the ideas

:49:27.:49:39.

we have heard in the past. A of emphasis on tax avoidance to the

:49:40.:49:41.

point of uttering threats to companies who engage in tax

:49:42.:49:43.

avoidance, that they could lose government contracts. But tax

:49:44.:49:45.

avoidance is what happens when you have a tax code. We are not talking

:49:46.:49:48.

about tax evasion, which is a legal, tax avoidance is what every company

:49:49.:49:51.

tries to do one way or the other. The thicker the tax code gets, and

:49:52.:49:54.

what is it now? 2000 pages, the more loopholes. It is 15,000 pages. That

:49:55.:50:01.

is just in the last week! George Osborne added another third to what

:50:02.:50:08.

had already been doubled. Wealth taxes on the agenda. He hinted at

:50:09.:50:12.

that. Some way of dealing with wealth rather than earnings so the

:50:13.:50:16.

mansion tax but what else? Many questions. It is good to be able to

:50:17.:50:20.

start talking about policy and drill down to see what they think and how

:50:21.:50:24.

far the thinking has gone. Paul Mason, your reaction? The keyword

:50:25.:50:30.

was intervention. Some of this came Xeon macroeconomic policy like ?250

:50:31.:50:34.

billion spending, raising wages through the living wage, is classic

:50:35.:50:39.

canes, but the next phase for Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell is the

:50:40.:50:44.

interventionist idea. -- some of this Keynesian macroeconomic policy.

:50:45.:50:48.

It is reaching inside companies and saying you can't do this commie

:50:49.:50:52.

can't not pay the minimum wage, you can't... He was very clear, and

:50:53.:50:57.

let's be clear, we are not talking about evasion, illegality, we are

:50:58.:51:01.

talking about the legitimate tax avoidance that means companies like

:51:02.:51:04.

Apple and Google allegedly pay less tax than they should, is now going

:51:05.:51:09.

to be subjected to contract compliance rules in the public

:51:10.:51:12.

sector. Does that mean the government will not buy iPhones? It

:51:13.:51:17.

may do and let's think about this, before Brexit, this contract

:51:18.:51:22.

compliance was not possible. That is an interesting thing, John McDonnell

:51:23.:51:25.

now says we have Brexit and there are no EU rules to worry about, if

:51:26.:51:28.

we want to intervene in the private sector and change it, we will do it.

:51:29.:51:33.

That, plus the trade union act, massive applause and I saw some

:51:34.:51:40.

people stand up at the end which I think John McDonnell and Jeremy

:51:41.:51:42.

Corbyn are quite happy with at this conference! We are all obsessed with

:51:43.:51:45.

Momentum and entry is. I read that as a very trade union influenced

:51:46.:51:49.

speech and not just by Unite that supports them, there were big throw

:51:50.:51:54.

out to people like the GMB who has been wavering in their support for

:51:55.:51:57.

the new government. I'm sure it will be popular with the trade unions.

:51:58.:52:01.

John, picking up anything on Clive Lewis and this argument he is having

:52:02.:52:06.

with Mr Corbyn about Trident? We seem to have gathered there was a

:52:07.:52:09.

meeting ahead of the speech and the line in the speech was in dispute as

:52:10.:52:13.

we understand it and as we have been discussing, nuances of difference

:52:14.:52:16.

between the two of them, mainly focused on all of that but the

:52:17.:52:19.

outcome we don't yet know and precisely how it will lead onto

:52:20.:52:23.

policy, which is still a work in progress, very much. We have the

:52:24.:52:27.

rest of the day and week to find. Thank you for joining us.

:52:28.:52:29.

So Mr McDonnell told the conference that he wanted to end

:52:30.:52:31.

the "scourge of poverty pay", and one way he says he'll do this

:52:32.:52:34.

He said it would be set by an independent body.

:52:35.:52:40.

Let's just remind you what he had to say.

:52:41.:52:47.

When we win the next election, we will write into law a real living

:52:48.:52:53.

wage. APPLAUSE We will charge a new living wage

:52:54.:53:09.

review body with the task of setting it at the level needed for a decent

:53:10.:53:14.

life, independent forecasts suggest this will be over ?10 per hour. John

:53:15.:53:23.

McDonnell on the announcement that he had managed to hold back and not

:53:24.:53:26.

leaked in advance and we would like to know what that is.

:53:27.:53:28.

Now, we asked for an interview with John McDonnell or one

:53:29.:53:31.

of his colleagues on Labour's economic team so we could scrutinise

:53:32.:53:35.

the party's developing economic policy.

:53:36.:53:36.

But none of them were apparently available.

:53:37.:53:38.

But the Shadow Foreign Affairs Minister Catherine West has agreed

:53:39.:53:40.

Good to see you. He is going to invest ?250 billion investment

:53:41.:53:52.

banks, national and regional. Where will the money come from? Partly

:53:53.:53:58.

through the investment bank arrangement in the European Union,

:53:59.:54:01.

which of course... We did not want to leave the European Union for this

:54:02.:54:05.

very reason that those facilities are available to us. Excuse me, the

:54:06.:54:10.

European investment bank will give us this money? It will assist as one

:54:11.:54:13.

of the tools which will bring together the funding but in terms of

:54:14.:54:17.

the money that actually exists, the quantitative easing programme which

:54:18.:54:21.

the government has been using since 2008, there are financial mechanisms

:54:22.:54:25.

and ways of investment. We know that in the Autumn Statement, Phillip

:54:26.:54:28.

Hammond will be looking at investment. I guess it is the same

:54:29.:54:33.

question. Let me try to an picked this a bit. Have you talked to the

:54:34.:54:36.

European investment bank to find out if they will contribute to this ?250

:54:37.:54:43.

billion? We will approach them. But you haven't? We can use the same

:54:44.:54:47.

mechanisms that Mr Hammond will be using. But the European investment

:54:48.:54:51.

bank mechanism is to put public money in and then leveraged it by

:54:52.:54:53.

getting more private money in. It does not give money to national

:54:54.:54:59.

investment banks. So you have not discussed this yet? We will be using

:55:00.:55:03.

the same tools which Mr Hammond is going to use when he announces it in

:55:04.:55:08.

the Autumn Statement. Forgive me, we will deal with Mr Hammond when we

:55:09.:55:13.

deal with him -- get him and I get a chance to interview him. Let's stick

:55:14.:55:17.

with what John McDonnell announced today. You mentioned the Bank of

:55:18.:55:20.

England's quantitative easing which is essentially the electronic

:55:21.:55:23.

printing of money. Will you just print money to finance this ?250

:55:24.:55:28.

billion? No, I think the point is this, what we had all hoped after

:55:29.:55:32.

2008 was that QE would have an effect on the real economy but

:55:33.:55:36.

instead, it has led to the driving down of wages. Yes, growth is around

:55:37.:55:41.

1% which is a good thing. No, it's not commit an average of 2.5%. Not

:55:42.:55:49.

1%. -- it's not, it is on average. In terms of wages and people's

:55:50.:55:56.

pockets... Bayard growing by 2.3%. Not in the public sector. But they

:55:57.:56:01.

are growing by an average of 2.3%. In certain sectors, wages are

:56:02.:56:05.

flatter than they have ever been. RUC began to print money, going to

:56:06.:56:10.

monetise... We are going to use the same mechanisms that Mr Hammond will

:56:11.:56:13.

when he announces his infrastructure spend on the 23rd of November. What

:56:14.:56:19.

will you do with that money? The number one priority is building more

:56:20.:56:23.

homes, we have a desperate shortage of affordable homes. The second one

:56:24.:56:26.

is transport priorities. Many regions are crying out for real

:56:27.:56:30.

basics like a bus to go to work in the morning. Things which are

:56:31.:56:35.

desperately needed. So this money would not be expected to earn a

:56:36.:56:41.

return? The thing about investing in the economy, which we know and I

:56:42.:56:45.

know because I have been a bar leader before, if you invest in the

:56:46.:56:50.

local area, like the regions, in a place like Liverpool, and you can

:56:51.:56:52.

see the European investment where we are having conference at the moment,

:56:53.:56:57.

it leads to jobs. It can over time if the investment is right, that is

:56:58.:57:02.

correct. What do you accept in the short term, perhaps even the medium

:57:03.:57:06.

term, it will lead to quite a substantial rise in the deficit? The

:57:07.:57:17.

thing at the moment is that borrowing is quite low. As we know,

:57:18.:57:20.

the borrowing just came down after the Brexit Road. But will it add to

:57:21.:57:23.

the deficit? It is a good time to borrow which is why the government

:57:24.:57:26.

is about to announce it. But it will add substantially to the deficit.

:57:27.:57:28.

Lets see how to the government is going to add the deficit. But I'm

:57:29.:57:32.

asking about you, these plans in total come to about ?500 billion,

:57:33.:57:37.

and you will take our national debt over ?2 trillion, won't you? It

:57:38.:57:42.

depends on the rate at which we borrow and we have to examine that

:57:43.:57:44.

when we come to make the decision. We want to borrow so that rather

:57:45.:57:49.

than borrowing to keep a few businesses afloat to press down

:57:50.:57:52.

wages, we want to borrow to invest in the country. John McDonnell

:57:53.:57:56.

praised the entrepreneurial state and said the Obama administration

:57:57.:58:00.

had been a good example of that. Can you give me an example of where the

:58:01.:58:04.

Obama administration has been entrepreneurial? I think

:58:05.:58:07.

increasingly across globalised economies, we are seeing people

:58:08.:58:11.

working from home, creating their own businesses. But what has been

:58:12.:58:16.

entrepreneurial about Mr Obama? You can see there has been a growth in

:58:17.:58:20.

the economy and the -- unemployment rate has dropped... The same as

:58:21.:58:25.

Britain's. I'm proudly and implement rate is lower but we are talking

:58:26.:58:33.

about the quality of those jobs, what the wages are and how we can

:58:34.:58:36.

make the workforce and people's lives work much better. My working

:58:37.:58:39.

life will be better when we get it time!

:58:40.:58:39.

John McDonnell has given his second speech as Shadow Chancellor.

:58:40.:58:45.

I'll be back at 11:15pm on BBC2, straight after Newsnight,

:58:46.:58:47.

to bring you all the main events from Liverpool in

:58:48.:58:50.

How could you miss that? And we will be back at the usual time of midday,

:58:51.:58:59.

live from Liverpool, tomorrow. Goodbye.

:59:00.:59:16.

As we think of the places we've called home.

:59:17.:59:17.

Andrew Neil is at the Labour Party conference in Liverpool, with live coverage of shadow chancellor John McDonnell's speech.

Andrew is joined by mayor of Bristol Marvin Rees and journalist Paul Mason, amongst others, to discuss the day's big political stories.


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