30/09/2016 Daily Politics


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 30/09/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!



Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.


Theresa May is preparing for her first party conference


as Prime Minister and says she's getting on with the


She's sought to dampen any speculation of an early


But are there any circumstances in which she might be


The Chancellor announces an and to government's


The Chancellor announces an end to government's


So is the dream of home ownership now even further away


As the Rosetta Mission comes to an end we look at the future


And do Labour Party members think Jeremy Corbyn


Adam takes his balls out at Labour conference.


Absolutely. Definitely, 100%? 100%. Nothing will get in his way? I hope


not. All that in the next hour,


and with me for the whole programme today are the Times columnist


Tim Montgomerie and Barbara Ntumy, an activist with Momentum,


the grassroots organisation that First today, the Vice Chairman


of Momentum, Jackie Walker, has said she will not resign after


being accused of anti-Semitism. Ms Walker says "political


differences" were underlying many She's come under fire after leaked


footage emerged of an anti-Semitism training event in which she appeared


to criticise Holocaust Memorial Day. I still haven't heard a definition


of anti-Semitism that I can work with. In terms of Holocaust Day, I


would also like to say, wouldn't it be wonderful if Holocaust Day was


open to all people who experienced... It is! In practice,


it's not actually circulated and advertised. It's on the website.


The sound was a bit distorted, but Jackie Walker was effectively saying


that she hadn't heard a definition of anti-Semitism that she could work


with. Barbara Ntumy, as a member of Momentum, do you think she has to


go? I think the Labour Party and Momentum will deal with her


properly. I think her comments are wrong. As a student I had the


opportunity in 2012 to go to Poland and visited Auschwitz. Commemorating


the Holocaust is something we absolutely must do, it was a


systematic attempt to get rid of a group of people, Jewish people, and


that's why we commemorate it every year, it's a society we don't ever


want to live in again. Those comments are not acceptable in that


room or anywhere and I don't agree with her at all. You condemn her


comments? 100%. She has been called upon to resign from the steering


committee is being vice-chairman of Momentum. There are also calls from


the general secretary of the TSSA union to quit Labour as well. I


think the Labour Party should deal with that accordingly. Her comments


were not right and we have a process to deal with it. Labour Party should


follow that up. In Momentum I am told that the process is going


through as well. Whether or not she chooses to resign is up to her, but


as a party and as Momentum, we will deal with her appropriately. I don't


know what the outcome of that will be. It comes at a time when the


question of anti-Semitism within Labour is rife. You have Jewish


Labour MPs complaining of anti-Semitic attacks. Shami


Chakrabati's report into anti-Semitism was criticised as a


whitewash. Why can't the party get a grip on this? Jeremy Corbyn


mentioned it twice in his speech, but there is still be sense he


doesn't really understand the anger and frustration that is caused by


failing to clamp down on it. I think Jeremy Corbyn has been 100% clear


that anti-Semitism is not tolerated in the party. Has he been clear


enough? I think he has been clear. There are individuals who are still


not saying these things but are not OK. I look for the Labour Party to


follow the disciplinary process and if it comes to it, they should not


be members of the party any more. We need to continue to talk about these


issues, they are very important and we need to continue to denounce


people who make inappropriate comments like this. I think looking


forward with Jeremy's new mandate, I'm looking to things we can do to


set aside these fears of Jewish MPs and members. The struggle against


all forms of racism that plagues so only people's lives. Tim, to bring


you in on this. One of the points she made was about Holocaust


Memorial Day. She didn't realise it was intended to commemorate all


victims of the Nazi Holocaust and other post-World War II genocides


like Rwanda and Bosnia. Is it fair to say that a lot of people don't


realise that Holocaust Memorial Day goes beyond? I think it probably is.


I welcome what Momentum seems to be saying in response to this. In that


audio we heard, one of the most encouraging things was, as Jackie


Walker made her remarks, a lot of people in the audience were speaking


out audibly against her. We seem to be moving to a phase now where are


within Momentum and the Labour Party, there is an awareness that


there is a problem, and people are speaking out against it. I think


there may be progress, even under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, that we


should appreciate. More from you throughout the programme.


At the Labour conference, Jeremy Corbyn confirmed


that he was putting his party on an election footing,


in the expectation of a possible early poll in the spring.


At the Tory conference in Birmingham next week,


there'll no doubt be plenty of speculation about


whether the Prime Minister will do just that and call


But, so far, Theresa May has ruled it out before 2020.


Here she is on the Andrew Marr show earlier this month.


had the referendum vote, we have a period of stability. There is a


challenge ahead in making sure that we make a success out of coming out


of the European Union. I think it's important we focus on that and the


other reform agenda I have for the country as we go forward. And we


will be continuing the manifesto on which the Conservative government


was elected in 2015. I don't think there's the need for an election and


I think the next election will be in 2020.


Theresa May speaking to Andrew Marr earlier this month.


However, senior Conservatives have suggested Mrs May should retain


the option of an early election if her MPs block the return


Speaking to The Times, the former Chancellor Lord Lawson


said a "wholly new situation would arise" if she were unable


to get her legislation through the House of Commons.


To discuss this and many other issues as we head into the


Tory conference is the former Business Minister Anna Soubry.


Welcome to the programme. You have spoken out against Theresa May's


proposals for new grammar schools. Are you pining to vote against them?


I don't think we are there yet. We have the consultation out and we


need to see the results of the consultation before we all jump into


thinking there will be some backbench rebellion and all the rest


of it. You think they might not even get to the point of getting to the


vote? It is a consultation. No disrespect to you, but I think the


media is scrabbling around the stories because we don't have an


opposition in this country, so we have a vacuum and the media fills it


with stories like this. It's a nonstory in my view. It's one of the


earliest new announcements Theresa May has come forward with. She is


clearly very keen to reintroduce some sort of selection throughout


the school system in England. If it does come to the question of a vote,


and if that vote is lost, or, for example, she loses a vote on


boundary changes, could that put pressure on her to call an early


general election? I think this is so hypothetical. I think out here in


the real world, if I may say, I don't think people are talking about


these things at all. It's a bit of a media bubble, Westminster bubble


thing. I just don't think there's any background to it at all. It's so


hypothetical. I think Theresa May has made it very clear she doesn't


intend to call a general election. Everybody tends to forget we have a


fixed Parliament act, so you can't just call one, you need two thirds


of MPs to agree, or have a vote of no confidence followed up by another


vote. No disrespect, but this is completely hypothetical media bubble


stuff. You're saying it's hypothetical to talk about the


possibility of an early general election, but the issue of grammar


schools is not hypothetical. Turning to Tim Montgomery, do you agree that


if she is struggling to get her legislation through on grammar


schools, if it gets to the Commons, despite Anna Soubry doubting that,


do you think she should call eight election? Yes I do. I'm hoping what


we will get in Birmingham this week from the Conservatives is an agenda,


a response to the Brexit vote. Anna Soubry and I were on different sides


of the Brexit debate but we both agree with what Theresa May said on


the steps of Downing Street, people voted for change in social policy. A


lot of people out there are hurting. I hope we will get a radical agenda


this week on housing, for example. Other things the Conservative Party


have perhaps neglected for a while. If we start to see the House of


Lords or backbench Tory MPs or the Labour opposition frustrate Theresa


May's agenda on those things, I think she has to reserve the right


to say, I'd need these things to be done and I will go to the country


for a mandate. It might not be her intention, her primary plan, but she


needs to retain the option and she will get the mandate from the


British people. Anna Soubry's point about the fixed term Parliament act,


it's not easy to call an election. It's not easy but Jeremy Corbyn and


Tim Farron have made it clear they would not stand in a way of the


Prime Minister wanting a general election and they don't want to look


scared of that election. Yes, there are technical difficulties as Anna


Soubry has said, but I think they are easily overcome. Can I just say


that Jeremy Corbyn really would be a turkey voting for Christmas if he


possibly thought it was in his or his party's interest to go to the


electorate. The only person who apparently once that on the Labour


site is Peter Mandelson, who knows they would get hammered and then


they can sort out the Labour Party. Wouldn't be advantageous for the


Conservatives then? Good Theresa May be thinking, this is my moment, I


could go when Labour is at its weakest. No because Ted makes a


really good point, because now she has spoken on the steps of Downing


Street talking about what she wants to deliver, a better society for


everybody. -- because Tim makes a really good point. That's absolutely


right, that everything we do in government is for the good of


everybody. We have to get on with that, just as we have to get on and


sort out this wretched Brexit business. We still don't know what


leave means three months on. Ken Clarke, your colleague, said this


week that nobody in the government has the first idea of what they will


do next on the Brexit front. Do you share his assessment? I share his


concern. Three months on, as I say, we still don't know what leave looks


like. Some of the senior people of the Leave campaign sit at the


highest level of government, Boris Johnson, Priti Patel, Andrea


Leadsom, Liam Fox, and they have to say what Brexit means, what leave


looks like. They need a plan and need to know what the guiding


principles are. Theresa May will need to know what that is, she's the


Prime Minister, and it's not for her to rely on Boris, Liam Fox and David


Davis, she has to come forward and say what the guiding principles and


plan is. She doesn't want to give away the detail of negotiation, but


we need to know what Brexit will look like and we still don't. Does


Tim have any inside knowledge? Liam Fox gave a big hint yesterday that


he certainly wants us out of the single market. Is there enough


knowledge going around? I think the government made it absolutely clear


that the ending of the Freeman Tov movement -- the freedom of movement


is the number-1 point. Immigration was at the heart of the reason why


British people voted to leave the European Union. A lot of people at


the top of government, not least Philip Hammond and George Osborne in


a speech in Chicago made it clear last week that he would like


continued membership in some form of the single market. I think that's


where the ambiguity still lies. The freedom of movement has to end, and


that will be key to Brexit, but how much access membership we get to the


single market, that's the controversial area to still be


decided. I don't think it's wrong to expect the government to take time


to establish what our European counterparts think in this before


rushing to a decision. Three months isn't actually that long in such a


big decision. It might be in next few days in Birmingham we will get


more clarity. Anna Soubry, you spoke out about Britain remaining in the


single market after the Brexit vote but we had EU leaders telling us


that it means accepting freedom of movement. Tim is saying the British


people voted to end freedom of movement, immigration being one of


the big issues, so how do you reconcile those two? He's right that


immigration was a big issue for some people. You can't say that everybody


who voted to leave did so on the grounds of immigration, you can't


say that. But it was a big issue. I thought people were saying they


wanted control over immigration. And in fact some people were voting for


leave because they wanted to see more migrants coming into work here


from different parts of the world, non-EU countries, so it's a real


mishmash. It was absolutely clear that people wanted control of the


Borders. Every opinion poll conducted shows much higher


percentage than 52% want control of immigration. Does that mean more or


less immigration? Less immigration. I think you are in denial if you try


to pretend that's what the British people voted for. I also think we've


never had a proper debate about immigration. Nobody has properly


made the positive case for immigration. Yesterday in the real


world I was talking to a business in my constituency, which employs a


high number of EU workers, and genuinely is now having serious


problems with recruitment and retention. EU workers who come here


to work, who do jobs that it is born people will not or cannot do, and


they are finding themselves now in serious trouble and they need to


know from this government what sort of security they can offer EU


workers, they rely on them to conduct their business and without


them they will not bid to do the great business they do. That's life


in the real world. Are you saying it was a big failure


on the part of the Remain campaigners not to spell out the


positives of immigration? Yes, absolutely right. People have not


made the case positively for white immigration, migration of workers


coming into our country has positively benefited our country for


centuries and the realities of it. There are many parts of our country


now which have full employment levels and their businesses which


cannot survive without that free movement of labour. I am sorry, but


people have got to get real about what is happening in the real world


and what is going on out there, and the real problem is that British


business face. Freedom of movement will be one of the crux issues to be


discussed in the future negotiations. Tim Montgomerie, you


recently suggested on Twitter that Theresa May may be bad at the crunch


moment decisions. What do you mean by that and do you stand by that


now? A year ago she gave a big bold speech on immigration when she was


still Home Secretary at the party conference. Many of us assumed if


she was serious about that speech and controlling immigration she


would back Brexit but she did not. Was cheap lily lifted then as there


were reports that she did not -- was she lily livered then? She made


Jeremy Corbyn like an enthusiastic campaigners for remaining in the


European Union. And there were a few decisions like Hinkley Point in the


summer where she marches troops to the top of the hill, only to march


them down again. We need boldness over the next few months. And yet


you left the Conservative Party under David Cameron. You have


rejoined under Theresa May. Are you saying you trust her to deliver it


Brexit in the way you want? What I think is interesting is how Tory


MPs, Anna Soubry is a very principled exception to this, but


how most Tory MPs who backed Remain, have considered the commitment to


Brexit. Anna Soubry is clearly reluctant about accepting it. When


do you think the government should get on with triggering article 50?


Bob Crow can I make this clear? I accept the verdict of the British


people. We said if you vote out, we will get out? ... When should


Article 50 B triggered? We need to know what the principles are. We


need to know what the planners. Obviously, we have to move towards


that. My concern at the moment is from government, all we are hearing


from its people like Liam Fox who are talking in a way which at times


concerns me that he's almost delusional. Just picking up what


Anna said, you cannot say you accept the result and then say freedom of


movement some have asked to continue and we will remain a member of the


single market. That does not add up as an honest acceptance of how


people voted. And the timing for the triggering of article 50. Because


the French and German elections next year, nothing much will happen until


they have chosen their new leader. If we trigger early next year, we


will have six months where Germany and France are not engaged and it


will be six wasted months. He is right, we agree on that! Thank you.


Former Liberal Democrat MP John Hemming, known for his tireless


campaigning, has been locked in a long running battle


with Birmingham council over garden waste collection.


He hasn't been very successful so far, but not one to give up,


he's taken the case to a higher authority.


So our question for today is, where's he taken it?


At the end of the show Tim and Barbara will give us


Today, the Government has announced the early closure of one


of George Osborne's flagship schemes to get people onto


The Help to Buy scheme for England and Wales is being brought to a


close six month early. The government says it has achieved its


goal but it is also being seen as another break from the Cameron era.


Chancellor Philip Hammond has said he will close the Help to Buy scheme


which offered state-backed mortgages to those who could only afford


The scheme helped 185,000 people but has been criticised for pushing


up house prices while doing nothing to address the underlying shortage


Latest figures from the government's House Price Index show the average


a full ?63,000 more than a decade ago.


Meanwhile, London mayor Sadiq Khan has ordered an inquiry


into the scale and impact of foreign investment


He has called for more transparency, warning that a flood of "dirty


money" from abroad is causing "real concerns" for people struggling


A survey by the Institute for Fiscal Studies today shows that


people born in the early 1980s are only half as wealthy as those


born the decade before were at the same age.


Just 40% of those born in the 1980s are owner-occupiers at the age


of 30, compared with at least 55% in previous generations.


We're joined now by the head of policy at housing charity


Welcome to the programme. Shelter gave plans for Help to Buy a


cautious welcome when they were announced in 2013. Do you support


its scrappage today? I think many people will not notice that it has


gone. When it was first launched it was plugging a gap in the market


where those very low deposit loans that a lot of people used in the


2000s and the 90s to buy had dried up in the wake of the recession and


this scheme was trying to replicate those. The market is sort of


providing those again but also people are realising with house


prices where they are and incomes where they are, it is not so much


the deposit which is the issue any more, it is the whole affordability


picture. It delivered double the number of houses it was supposed to


select was working for a lot of people? It was working for a time


but if you look at numbers it has dwindled. We are not concerned about


the fact it will be withdrawn. What we are concerned about is the piece


of the puzzle which was always missing, the emphasis on building


genuinely affordable homes, still is not on the table. We will be looking


at the prime list next week to really set out our plans for what


she will do for on low and middle incomes, as well as the more


affluent people who took advantage of Help to Buy. The Conservatives


have pledged to build 1 million homes as has Jeremy Corbyn, he has


said 500,000 of them will be council homes. The question is affordability


and house prices being pushed up beyond the realms of affordability?


People have got cynical about the big numbers being announced. The


fact is, people see homes going up in their area, and they know if they


are on an ordinary age, they do not have a hope of buying it if it is a


full market sale. That is why the mayor's announcement is interesting.


People have got cynical about the fact they cannot afford anything.


That is why, when the Prime Minister puts more flesh on the plans to


build a million homes, you need to see more diversity of what is being


built. Genuinely low rent homes and products like shared ownership. It


cannot just be market homes. Is Sadiq Khan write about what he says


about dirty money about foreign ownership in London? There is a lot


going on in London and no one has a handle on it. I don't think of many


homes are being left empty as other people suspect but it is not helping


people who live and work in London finding a home when you have foreign


money propping up what is potentially an unsustainable bubble


and building these very, very expensive luxury apartments.


Barbara, do you think the Help to Buy scheme in essence was a good


scheme? I think it was questionable at first because it did not fulfil


the needs that people had witches there were not enough houses being


built which people could afford. I think the Conservatives have tried


something, it has not quite worked, people have criticised it and


instead of fixing it, they have completely taken it away. It was due


to come to an end next year. That is what upsets me, there is no growing


in that and it is not solving the reality of people's problems in


Babel -- being able to afford housing and wages being low. We do


not know what they will replace it with. They have committed to holding


houses but we will have to wait and see because the Conservatives say


one thing and deliver another. Was this a successful scheme or a naive


move which boosted the housing bubble? It was good politics. It


sent a message to people who wanted to buy a home but could not afford


it that the government was helping them, but the problem we have is and


I completely agree with Shelter and I think with the Labour Party, that


we are not building enough affordable housing. Successive


governments have said we need to build more housing but they have not


got a grip. Why? I think in the 1980s there was an economic crisis


and Mrs Thatcher's I was on the bigger economic problems. And we


lost a tradition in the Conservative Party. Harold Macmillan and other


leaders were happy to use statement need to build houses and I think we


need to recover that tradition. At the moment we are spending ?10


billion on housing benefit, so government is involved in the


housing market, that money could be spent not on benefits, but on


bricks, building affordable homes for people. I think it is probably a


forlorn hope but I do hope that we will see a real shift in


Conservative policy, not away from the greatest traditions of


conservatism post-war, just the way from where we got to in the 1980s


and 1990s. Kate Webb, if you are housing minister, and I bet you


would love to be, what would your top policies be, what would the


priority be? I think the priority is about building the genuinely


affordable homes. We do have a great tradition in this country of


building homes for people on low and middle incomes. Is at home ownership


or social housing and council housing, different schemes? It is


about getting away with that obsession with ten years. And if you


build council housing we do have the Right to Buy, it is incredibly


controversial, but it does mean if you have somebody in a council home,


it can work for them when their income is low, and if they're in


crime increases, they can exercise the Right to Buy so we don't have to


see it as an either or. Barbara, Right to Buy has been extended from


council houses into housing associations as well, what do you


make of that? Again, it does not solve the problem of we do not have


enough houses. But as the key issue. We need to physically build more


houses for people to live in. Like myself, I recently graduated and the


idea of owning a home is something I don't think I will ever be able to


afford. And living in London, renting in London is also a way that


young people and people generally get exploited when you have big


businesses coming in and buying up all the properties. People have to


move out or you have overcrowding, especially for Black communities


which I am from. We are not able to afford houses and people do not want


to move anyway because this is where their community is. Whether you


extend it to housing associations or you have another scheme, the main


issues to build houses for people. Kate Webb, do you think Jeremy


Corbyn has got a grip on this, if he talks about building a million


homes, and also giving councils the right to borrow against council


houses, to build even more? I think the right to borrow is extremely


welcome. There are families in temporary accommodation and young


families who want a home of their own so we have to be letting


councils build to meet their local need. We are slightly disappointed


with Jeremy Corbyn for creating a political spat about is it council


houses or housing associations. This is a huge challenge which it is


imperative that we meet and playing politics with either the


Conservative session with homeownership or Corbyn's dislike of


housing associations, it is not helpful.


Tim, borrowing more to build more, do you support that? I do. We still


have a huge deficit that needs to get under control, but borrowing for


schools and the longer term, housing and roads and railways.


International borrowing rates are so low at the moment, we would be


foolish not to take advantage. It's not a Conservative obsession with


homeownership though, the vast majority of people want to own their


own homes. So reversing that sad decline in home ownership should be


a legitimate priority. Will Jeremy Corbyn be


the next Prime Minister? When opinion pollsters ask that


question the results don't always look great


for the Labour leader. But what if you ask


Labour party members? Adam Fleming did just that


as he tested the mood at Labour conference earlier this


week. Questions don't come


bigger than this. Is Jeremy Corbyn going to be


the next Prime Minister? Definitely, 100%?


100%. Nothing is going to get in his way?


I hope not. We now just have to get out there,


feet are going to get hammered. You've got your trainers on already,


I see, ready to go. That's that's how I swan about


conference, in trainers, honestly. I still think he hasn't shown


the leadership he needs to show. What, winning two


leadership elections? No, leadership of unifying


the party and leading Is that the done thing


at this conference, Yes, yes.


If you doubt it, yes. I'm old enough to know


what I'm talking about. I think the media's undermined him


too much and people have lost Well, on the Daily Politics


we are scrupulously fair. I'm not saying the BBC,


I'm saying the papers more. If he's not Prime Minister,


how will you feel? Gutted, because it will mean we've


still got the Tories. Yeah, for another five


years, in four years. I know, it's not worth


thinking about it. What's it going to be like -


Jeremy Corbyn standing on the steps of Downing Street having just


won an election? I think this is the start


of an excellent new future. We have some Labour conference


specials, some Jeremy Corbyn cuff links, and some


Labour Party cuff links as well. Look at that, Jeremy Corbyn


as Che Guevara on your wrists. How much does a Jeremy


for PM badge cost? My brother is called Jeremy,


he's a Tory voter, so I'm Pop a ball in, it doesn't


cost 60p, it's free. You're meant to be


Shadow Foreign Secretary, Peter, we're doing


the Daily Politics balls, is Jeremy going to be the next


Prime Minister, yes or no? You've managed to avoid


the Daily Politics balls all week. Is Jeremy Corbyn going to be


the next Prime Minister? How come the polls suggest that's


really not going to happen? Now you're asking me tricky


questions, I've done your poll. He's just going to put a ball


in, that's all. Well, Tom Watson had the final ball


after managing to evade us all week. He went with the majority of people


at this conference saying yes, Jeremy Corbyn will be the next


Prime Minister, although look Tom Watson saying of course he's


going to be Prime Minister, although a lot of people at the conference


thought that Tom took a slightly different approach to that. Let's


move on. The mood box, there were more balls in the yes box, but there


were a substantial number of noes as well. He still has a lot of people


to convince. 100%. We've definitely got a very long way to go. Frankly,


that's why I was a bit disappointed this summer that we went through all


of this again, to be honest. I thought it would be a great


opportunity for Labour activists like myself and loads of people who


have joined the party and are in Momentum, going out there to


convince Labour supporters and voters to vote for Jeremy and the


plan he has for the country. I think we have some work to do and a lot of


people to convince but I believe we can do it. A lot of Labour delegates


don't think he has what it takes in a YouGov poll this month, the


current Labour leader is a massive 71 points behind the Prime Minister,


he's at -30 and she sat plus 41. It's a shame. Everything that we


have been through this summer is reflected in the polling. It's been


a horrendous summer although we've had this amazing and exciting


campaign and loads of us who have joined Jeremy Corbyn are excited by


it. It's not just this summer, it's an accumulation of events. It's a


number of things, we haven't had unity in the party, people haven't


supported the leader. Getting live resignations on television doesn't


really boost and help your rating is very much. I think the key thing, as


Jeremy said in his message at conference, we want unity, we want


to work together. We have a lot more in common. People might disagree on


how we get there but we want to get there. We want young people to have


opportunities, free education for young people, we want to build more


council houses. Which is all very well, but do you genuinely, in your


heart, feel that your party is on election footing, that you could


fight a general election next month if it were called? Not next month


but give us three months! Differs the summer again! -- give us the


summer again. There is a lot of work to be done internally. You have to


get a Shadow Cabinet together for a start. But I think we are on a


better footing than we were in the summer and before that, especially


after the referendum. I think a lot of Labour MPs and supporters,


however they feel, I think most people want the party to succeed.


Maybe that process will start... You want your party to succeed because


you believe it can do some extraordinary things in society, and


that's where most people will be at. We are told there is a move towards


filling those Shadow Cabinet places next week. Perhaps we will get more


names and people coming forward. Tim, in terms of the membership,


Labour Party membership is well over half a million and is the largest of


any party in western Europe. He is clearly doing something right, isn't


he? Yeah, there are a lot of left-wing people in the United


Kingdom and he has successfully mobilised a good number of them to


pay a membership fee for the Labour Party. You'd like those numbers in


the Conservative Party? Having a healthy membership is good because


you have people to knock on doors and deliver leaflets. So it doesn't


look bad. But looking at the views of those members on issues like


taxation, immigration, membership of the European Union and belief in


conspiracy theories... Conspiracy theories? YouGov quizzed people and


said, do you generally believe in conspiracy theories on things like


9/11, a new Labour member is more likely to believe in a conspiracy


theory. Barbara? I'm sure Barbara is honourable. All my friends don't


believe in conspiracy theories. That might be true of your friends but


the opinion polls do speak for themselves. They can be wrong


sometimes. It's hard when you look at the positions that Labour set out


this week, Jeremy Corbyn wouldn't put a limit on immigration. He wants


?500 billion more of borrowing. He's still in a position where he seems


to be finding excuses for terrorist organisations in history. That's not


true. He doesn't sing the national anthem given me opportunity. I don't


sing the national anthem. I would sing the one from Ghana, because


that's where I'm from. That might be your choice, but I don't think it


would help you get elected by the British people. Let's move from


Ghana to Wales. Students from Wales could face


university fees of up to ?9,000 after the Labour-led government


signalled it would scrap its Currently Welsh students pay only


?3,900 a year towards their degree with the remaining


?5,100 subsidised. But a review has recommended


that the Government should offer loans to pay for fees,


much like the system There would also be grants


for living costs which would be Joining me now from Cardiff


is the President of the NUS Thank you for joining us. Are the


NUS backing the plans of the Welsh government? Yes, we are back in the


plans. We believe more debt for students is bad, however we also


realise that in the current economic climate and the Westminster


posterity climate and the potential impact of Brexit, we have to target


support at students who need it the most and target that support at the


cost of education. Ultimately you can't afford to go to education,


then you can't afford to go to begin with. Students are telling us it's


the cost of living causing a barrier between access and education.


Building up a debt, borrowing against tuition fees you accept, but


you are very worried about the day to day living costs that a student


hast to sustain? Exactly. In Wales we have some of the poorest


communities in Europe. We want to see Welsh government put emphasis on


widening access. We believe it does this by targeting means tested


grants for students from the most disadvantaged background and


disabled students. How confident are you the Welsh government will bring


in both halves of the proposal suggested? Do you trust them not to


simply scrap the grant and go on to water down the commitment to support


living costs? We are very confident. We have been clear all along that we


would only accept diamond as a full package. Anything else would be


unacceptable and wouldn't work. This will only work if the tuition fee


grant goes directly to students in the form of maintenance support.


Barbara Ntumy, Jeremy Corbyn wants to scrap tuition fees. He said that


in conference this week, calling for free education. How does that fit


with a Labour led government in Wales calling for subbing different?


I'm a little bit concerned because the NUS has a policy of free


education and belief in grants, not debt. We had the same situation in


England, we were told it was ?9,000. Now we're seeing the teaching


excellence framework looking to increase that even more and we have


seen the government is completely scrap maintenance grants after they


wouldn't. It's OK for the package to be accepted as it is, but who's to


say that a few years down the line the government in Wales would change


their mind? We need to talk about what happens when students leave


university. Women and black students are likely to take longer to pay


back their student loans because of the income gap. You are saying you


are concerned about the organisation accepting this. What do you say to


that? I think what we have to realise, again, this is the Welsh


contract, we have a Labour government in Wales, and the Diamond


package is trying to work out the system for the next five or ten


years. If the Welsh government was to turn around in the next few years


and scrap maintenance grants, of course we do we be against that. But


we have faith in the Welsh government. The Welsh government


have taken a stance against TEF. There are different context in


England and Wales. That's why Wales is taking a stance. Tim, do you


think this is politicians learning from mistakes or have students just


become more apathetic perhaps or more accepting of realities? More


accepting of reality, not just the NUS in Wales, but the Labour


government in Wales as well. This is where do Barbara and Jeremy Corbyn


are misleading the British people. All these promises of free education


and free housing and free NHS, all without extra taxes. When, and if


they ever, God forbid, had power, you would not be able to afford all


this. Every ?1 you invest in education, the economy grows by ?1


50. I reject the idea that if people want to get higher education and get


a degree, after they do that they become members of society and


contribute, they become people of society and contribute in many ways.


The owners of getting that education should be a personal cost. There's


something really wrong about that. When I get my education, I don't sit


in my room and may education just benefits me, it benefits everyone in


society in the contributions I make and in my work. There's something


very problematic about how we talk about education in this country,


that the individual should bear the cost, and that's very wrong. Jeremy


Corbyn saying to raise corporation tax, or at least not drop it, in


order to pay for the end of tuition fees. That will be a popular policy.


Bashing business is always popular in the short run. Businesses must


pay their fair share of tax. Raising corporation tax is probably one of


the wrong ways of raising tax because a lot of international


businesses are footloose. They can go to other places which taxed less,


not least Ireland just over the water. It is a dangerous policy.


There are consequences. You can hear this is a very lively debate. You


have a coalition government in effect in Wales, well, at least one


Liberal Democrat who is the Education Minister. They were


famously derided as a party in 2010 for breaking their promises on


tuition fees. You say you are confident that this particular


change will go through, but do you think as a result the Lib Dems could


be punished again at the polls for doing this? I think this package is


one that will go to the heart of the problem that is living costs, and I


think it is worth saying I fully agree with Barbara and we want to


move towards a system where we have free education. But in our current


climate we have a restricted Welsh budget and what the Welsh Government


are doing is using this government to Leave budget to target it at the


students who need it the most. That will go towards the poorest students


in full grant form and we welcome, we are using the budget we have to


target those who need support the most. Means testing maintenance


grants paid Tony-macro takes more bureaucracy. Do you think it is a


danger that it might put off some students trying to get into


university because they think they have to go through that process now?


I think we have to do more in schools so students are equipped to


make the right judgments so they can fully understand what path they are


taking and make the decision between vacation and academic pathways.


Barbara, do you think Jeremy Corbyn will be having a word in the ear of


the Labour government in Wales? Identity personally have aligned to


Jeremy Corbyn so I don't know what he's doing! I think we have to help


poorest students in our society and that includes grants. The key thing


is grants not debt. It is not right to give people a grant and then


clobber them with debt. Wales has some of the poorest students. We


know you are likely to be paid less in the same way that black students


and women are and it will take us longer to pay back our student loans


than any other demographic. We want grants and not debt. Right.


One of the most audacious space missions ever undertaken


The Rosetta probe that has been tracking a comet


for the past two years is going to deliberately crash itself into


In the last half an hour it has just deliberately crashed into a ball of


ice and dust. Britain has played a crucial role


in the project which has been led But as Rosetta comes to an end,


is now the time to launch an expanded national space


programme? For the first time, the life cycle


of a comet revealed, thanks to the Rosetta mission. Scientists were


ecstatic two years ago when a spacecraft dropped a robot onto the


comet's surface. It was not the smoothest landing. Attempts to drill


below the surface failed. But... One of the UK instruments was able to


sniff its different gases which came up in the dust cloud when the lander


bounced onto the comet. Did it find anything from sniffing? It did. It


was able to detect water and organic compounds. It was at this UK space


Centre near Oxford that the sniffing instrument was put together.


Recently, the UK space economy and workforce has grown and grown. By


wearing this protective clothing, we can come right up to the space


testing chamber, the largest in the UK, which should be operational in


the New Year. It will be used to test equipment meant for space in a


variety of pressures to see if it still remains accurate. Britain is a


world leader in the manufacturer of small satellites and has its eye on


commercial space flights. The UK is the fourth largest contributor to


the Rosetta mission's creator, the European Space Agency, but MPs on


the science committee want to see more of the National space


programme. The government is to be clearer about where space can


benefit the broad economy. We get a huge amount of data out of the


investment we put into space, we don't currently make the best use of


that. MPs also criticised the skills crisis facing the sector which is


being addressed thanks to Britain's latest space hero. We have worked


hard to inspire the next generation through Tim Peake's mission to the


ISS which engaged a million schoolkids. Right now, the UK space


sector is very much in its ascendancy. Post was that there is a


pot of ?1 billion to invest in upcoming missions, but which ones?


-- post-Rosetta. We're looking at big mission is to look at gravity


building. There is a big x-ray mission. Which mission would you


like to see it spend the money on? Me personally, I think the XO Mars


mission is an exciting one and it is part of a programme which would lead


eventually to man's flight to Mars. From curious British scientists,


many missions have been conjured up, but the challenge for MPs is to


nurture a home-grown programme going forward.


We can talk now to our correspondent Rebecca morale. Can you hear us?


There is a big delay -- Rebecca you can communicate with a


spacecraft up in space but talking to me in Germany is a challenge! You


have something in your hand, what an earth is that? A prop. You have


always got to have a prop. It is a little model of the comet. The


Rosetta has been an tremendous journey. A few minutes ago touched


down on the comet's surface. The head of the comet. It has a body and


a head. That is the end of the Rosetta spacecraft. It was quite


controlled rather than explosive dissent. It was not designed to do


this. It was designed to fly around the comet. It took ten years to


reach this comet but it was never designed to cut down. The comet is


currently speeding away from the sun. Rosetta is actually solar


powered. The power has been fading really. They had two choices to let


it fade into the oblivion of deep space but they did not want to do


that. They wanted to go out in style so they sent it heading down onto


the comet's surface. There are pictures of the scientists cheering


as that moment happened. It is extraordinary, you go war that way


and then you get crashed into the comet you have been chasing. But


never mind. The essential information will be beamed back to


Earth, we hope and scientists will be able to learn from what they have


found. That is right. One of the reasons why they had this crash


landing was to squeeze every drop of science out of this mission. All the


way it was descending down, it was journey which took many hours. It


was taking lots of pictures and gathering data. There has been the


two years of data it has been collecting. It has taken thousands


of photos over the lifetime of its mission. There was so much science.


The operation phase of the mission has come to an end but the science


phase will continue. The team think there will be enough to keep going


for decades. There is pride in what they have done but also sadness. We


have had tears this afternoon which is unusual sometimes to see from a


bunch of scientists but they put so much into this mission. Rebecca,


thank you. Here's Ellie with the


Week in 60 Seconds. By the end of the evening I will be


blamed for everything. Why not? This week saw the first US presidential


debate. Conference, United, we can shape the


future. Jeremy Corbyn's conference speech went down well apart from the


part where he thanked Sadiq Khan. Clive Lewis 's speech had apparently


been changed at the last minute to keep open the possibility of


scrapping Trident. Theresa May's people hit back at


claims that she was branded lily livid over proposed EU immigration


controls. Actually, she supported him with the idea of an emergency


brake, they said. There's just time before we go


to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was, to which authority


has the former Liberal Democrat MP John Hemming taken his battle


with Birmingham Council over Is it: a) The European


Court of Justice? Does anyone know, I wonder? Lets ask


the man himself. John Hemming joins us live


via webcam from Birmingham. Indeed, the wonders of technology.


It is the article 's convention compliance commission ashlar


committee which is part of the United Nations. Why have you gone to


the United Nations? To is very important that people have access to


justice, that you can challenge the local authority without facing


ridiculous arguments like you should have met in person. We have had


telephones for years and years and years, so it should not be necessary


to meet in person to win a case. If you take my case against the


council, in a practical sense, I won. I took action to get the


council to clear up rubbish that it was refusing as a matter of policy


to clear up. They cleared up the rubbish but the judge decided


because I did not have a meeting with them at


which they would have told me nothing, that I should pay their


costs. In a couple of seconds, when will you find out when you have been


successful? The first step is at 5:30am tonight when I will here is


my case is deemed admissible. That is like the permission to appeal


stage at the Court of Appeal or at any court in the UK. If I get that


permission, then there will be further steps. You will be


celebrating, no doubt, if you get the United Nations to rule on the


fly-tipping. Thank you. The one o'clock news is starting


over on BBC One now. Andrew will be in Birmingham on


Sunday with the Sunday Politics live from the Conservative Party


Conference and, if that's not enough, I'll be on the Westminster


Hour on Radio 4 on Sunday evening.


Download Subtitles