30/09/2016 Daily Politics

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

Theresa May is preparing for her first party conference

as Prime Minister and says she's getting on with the

She's sought to dampen any speculation of an early

But are there any circumstances in which she might be

The Chancellor announces an and to government's

The Chancellor announces an end to government's

So is the dream of home ownership now even further away

As the Rosetta Mission comes to an end we look at the future

And do Labour Party members think Jeremy Corbyn

Adam takes his balls out at Labour conference.

Absolutely. Definitely, 100%? 100%. Nothing will get in his way? I hope

not. All that in the next hour,

and with me for the whole programme today are the Times columnist

Tim Montgomerie and Barbara Ntumy, an activist with Momentum,

the grassroots organisation that First today, the Vice Chairman

of Momentum, Jackie Walker, has said she will not resign after

being accused of anti-Semitism. Ms Walker says "political

differences" were underlying many She's come under fire after leaked

footage emerged of an anti-Semitism training event in which she appeared

to criticise Holocaust Memorial Day. I still haven't heard a definition

of anti-Semitism that I can work with. In terms of Holocaust Day, I

would also like to say, wouldn't it be wonderful if Holocaust Day was

open to all people who experienced... It is! In practice,

it's not actually circulated and advertised. It's on the website.

The sound was a bit distorted, but Jackie Walker was effectively saying

that she hadn't heard a definition of anti-Semitism that she could work

with. Barbara Ntumy, as a member of Momentum, do you think she has to

go? I think the Labour Party and Momentum will deal with her

properly. I think her comments are wrong. As a student I had the

opportunity in 2012 to go to Poland and visited Auschwitz. Commemorating

the Holocaust is something we absolutely must do, it was a

systematic attempt to get rid of a group of people, Jewish people, and

that's why we commemorate it every year, it's a society we don't ever

want to live in again. Those comments are not acceptable in that

room or anywhere and I don't agree with her at all. You condemn her

comments? 100%. She has been called upon to resign from the steering

committee is being vice-chairman of Momentum. There are also calls from

the general secretary of the TSSA union to quit Labour as well. I

think the Labour Party should deal with that accordingly. Her comments

were not right and we have a process to deal with it. Labour Party should

follow that up. In Momentum I am told that the process is going

through as well. Whether or not she chooses to resign is up to her, but

as a party and as Momentum, we will deal with her appropriately. I don't

know what the outcome of that will be. It comes at a time when the

question of anti-Semitism within Labour is rife. You have Jewish

Labour MPs complaining of anti-Semitic attacks. Shami

Chakrabati's report into anti-Semitism was criticised as a

whitewash. Why can't the party get a grip on this? Jeremy Corbyn

mentioned it twice in his speech, but there is still be sense he

doesn't really understand the anger and frustration that is caused by

failing to clamp down on it. I think Jeremy Corbyn has been 100% clear

that anti-Semitism is not tolerated in the party. Has he been clear

enough? I think he has been clear. There are individuals who are still

not saying these things but are not OK. I look for the Labour Party to

follow the disciplinary process and if it comes to it, they should not

be members of the party any more. We need to continue to talk about these

issues, they are very important and we need to continue to denounce

people who make inappropriate comments like this. I think looking

forward with Jeremy's new mandate, I'm looking to things we can do to

set aside these fears of Jewish MPs and members. The struggle against

all forms of racism that plagues so only people's lives. Tim, to bring

you in on this. One of the points she made was about Holocaust

Memorial Day. She didn't realise it was intended to commemorate all

victims of the Nazi Holocaust and other post-World War II genocides

like Rwanda and Bosnia. Is it fair to say that a lot of people don't

realise that Holocaust Memorial Day goes beyond? I think it probably is.

I welcome what Momentum seems to be saying in response to this. In that

audio we heard, one of the most encouraging things was, as Jackie

Walker made her remarks, a lot of people in the audience were speaking

out audibly against her. We seem to be moving to a phase now where are

within Momentum and the Labour Party, there is an awareness that

there is a problem, and people are speaking out against it. I think

there may be progress, even under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, that we

should appreciate. More from you throughout the programme.

At the Labour conference, Jeremy Corbyn confirmed

that he was putting his party on an election footing,

in the expectation of a possible early poll in the spring.

At the Tory conference in Birmingham next week,

there'll no doubt be plenty of speculation about

whether the Prime Minister will do just that and call

But, so far, Theresa May has ruled it out before 2020.

Here she is on the Andrew Marr show earlier this month.

had the referendum vote, we have a period of stability. There is a

challenge ahead in making sure that we make a success out of coming out

of the European Union. I think it's important we focus on that and the

other reform agenda I have for the country as we go forward. And we

will be continuing the manifesto on which the Conservative government

was elected in 2015. I don't think there's the need for an election and

I think the next election will be in 2020.

Theresa May speaking to Andrew Marr earlier this month.

However, senior Conservatives have suggested Mrs May should retain

the option of an early election if her MPs block the return

Speaking to The Times, the former Chancellor Lord Lawson

said a "wholly new situation would arise" if she were unable

to get her legislation through the House of Commons.

To discuss this and many other issues as we head into the

Tory conference is the former Business Minister Anna Soubry.

Welcome to the programme. You have spoken out against Theresa May's

proposals for new grammar schools. Are you pining to vote against them?

I don't think we are there yet. We have the consultation out and we

need to see the results of the consultation before we all jump into

thinking there will be some backbench rebellion and all the rest

of it. You think they might not even get to the point of getting to the

vote? It is a consultation. No disrespect to you, but I think the

media is scrabbling around the stories because we don't have an

opposition in this country, so we have a vacuum and the media fills it

with stories like this. It's a nonstory in my view. It's one of the

earliest new announcements Theresa May has come forward with. She is

clearly very keen to reintroduce some sort of selection throughout

the school system in England. If it does come to the question of a vote,

and if that vote is lost, or, for example, she loses a vote on

boundary changes, could that put pressure on her to call an early

general election? I think this is so hypothetical. I think out here in

the real world, if I may say, I don't think people are talking about

these things at all. It's a bit of a media bubble, Westminster bubble

thing. I just don't think there's any background to it at all. It's so

hypothetical. I think Theresa May has made it very clear she doesn't

intend to call a general election. Everybody tends to forget we have a

fixed Parliament act, so you can't just call one, you need two thirds

of MPs to agree, or have a vote of no confidence followed up by another

vote. No disrespect, but this is completely hypothetical media bubble

stuff. You're saying it's hypothetical to talk about the

possibility of an early general election, but the issue of grammar

schools is not hypothetical. Turning to Tim Montgomery, do you agree that

if she is struggling to get her legislation through on grammar

schools, if it gets to the Commons, despite Anna Soubry doubting that,

do you think she should call eight election? Yes I do. I'm hoping what

we will get in Birmingham this week from the Conservatives is an agenda,

a response to the Brexit vote. Anna Soubry and I were on different sides

of the Brexit debate but we both agree with what Theresa May said on

the steps of Downing Street, people voted for change in social policy. A

lot of people out there are hurting. I hope we will get a radical agenda

this week on housing, for example. Other things the Conservative Party

have perhaps neglected for a while. If we start to see the House of

Lords or backbench Tory MPs or the Labour opposition frustrate Theresa

May's agenda on those things, I think she has to reserve the right

to say, I'd need these things to be done and I will go to the country

for a mandate. It might not be her intention, her primary plan, but she

needs to retain the option and she will get the mandate from the

British people. Anna Soubry's point about the fixed term Parliament act,

it's not easy to call an election. It's not easy but Jeremy Corbyn and

Tim Farron have made it clear they would not stand in a way of the

Prime Minister wanting a general election and they don't want to look

scared of that election. Yes, there are technical difficulties as Anna

Soubry has said, but I think they are easily overcome. Can I just say

that Jeremy Corbyn really would be a turkey voting for Christmas if he

possibly thought it was in his or his party's interest to go to the

electorate. The only person who apparently once that on the Labour

site is Peter Mandelson, who knows they would get hammered and then

they can sort out the Labour Party. Wouldn't be advantageous for the

Conservatives then? Good Theresa May be thinking, this is my moment, I

could go when Labour is at its weakest. No because Ted makes a

really good point, because now she has spoken on the steps of Downing

Street talking about what she wants to deliver, a better society for

everybody. -- because Tim makes a really good point. That's absolutely

right, that everything we do in government is for the good of

everybody. We have to get on with that, just as we have to get on and

sort out this wretched Brexit business. We still don't know what

leave means three months on. Ken Clarke, your colleague, said this

week that nobody in the government has the first idea of what they will

do next on the Brexit front. Do you share his assessment? I share his

concern. Three months on, as I say, we still don't know what leave looks

like. Some of the senior people of the Leave campaign sit at the

highest level of government, Boris Johnson, Priti Patel, Andrea

Leadsom, Liam Fox, and they have to say what Brexit means, what leave

looks like. They need a plan and need to know what the guiding

principles are. Theresa May will need to know what that is, she's the

Prime Minister, and it's not for her to rely on Boris, Liam Fox and David

Davis, she has to come forward and say what the guiding principles and

plan is. She doesn't want to give away the detail of negotiation, but

we need to know what Brexit will look like and we still don't. Does

Tim have any inside knowledge? Liam Fox gave a big hint yesterday that

he certainly wants us out of the single market. Is there enough

knowledge going around? I think the government made it absolutely clear

that the ending of the Freeman Tov movement -- the freedom of movement

is the number-1 point. Immigration was at the heart of the reason why

British people voted to leave the European Union. A lot of people at

the top of government, not least Philip Hammond and George Osborne in

a speech in Chicago made it clear last week that he would like

continued membership in some form of the single market. I think that's

where the ambiguity still lies. The freedom of movement has to end, and

that will be key to Brexit, but how much access membership we get to the

single market, that's the controversial area to still be

decided. I don't think it's wrong to expect the government to take time

to establish what our European counterparts think in this before

rushing to a decision. Three months isn't actually that long in such a

big decision. It might be in next few days in Birmingham we will get

more clarity. Anna Soubry, you spoke out about Britain remaining in the

single market after the Brexit vote but we had EU leaders telling us

that it means accepting freedom of movement. Tim is saying the British

people voted to end freedom of movement, immigration being one of

the big issues, so how do you reconcile those two? He's right that

immigration was a big issue for some people. You can't say that everybody

who voted to leave did so on the grounds of immigration, you can't

say that. But it was a big issue. I thought people were saying they

wanted control over immigration. And in fact some people were voting for

leave because they wanted to see more migrants coming into work here

from different parts of the world, non-EU countries, so it's a real

mishmash. It was absolutely clear that people wanted control of the

Borders. Every opinion poll conducted shows much higher

percentage than 52% want control of immigration. Does that mean more or

less immigration? Less immigration. I think you are in denial if you try

to pretend that's what the British people voted for. I also think we've

never had a proper debate about immigration. Nobody has properly

made the positive case for immigration. Yesterday in the real

world I was talking to a business in my constituency, which employs a

high number of EU workers, and genuinely is now having serious

problems with recruitment and retention. EU workers who come here

to work, who do jobs that it is born people will not or cannot do, and

they are finding themselves now in serious trouble and they need to

know from this government what sort of security they can offer EU

workers, they rely on them to conduct their business and without

them they will not bid to do the great business they do. That's life

in the real world. Are you saying it was a big failure

on the part of the Remain campaigners not to spell out the

positives of immigration? Yes, absolutely right. People have not

made the case positively for white immigration, migration of workers

coming into our country has positively benefited our country for

centuries and the realities of it. There are many parts of our country

now which have full employment levels and their businesses which

cannot survive without that free movement of labour. I am sorry, but

people have got to get real about what is happening in the real world

and what is going on out there, and the real problem is that British

business face. Freedom of movement will be one of the crux issues to be

discussed in the future negotiations. Tim Montgomerie, you

recently suggested on Twitter that Theresa May may be bad at the crunch

moment decisions. What do you mean by that and do you stand by that

now? A year ago she gave a big bold speech on immigration when she was

still Home Secretary at the party conference. Many of us assumed if

she was serious about that speech and controlling immigration she

would back Brexit but she did not. Was cheap lily lifted then as there

were reports that she did not -- was she lily livered then? She made

Jeremy Corbyn like an enthusiastic campaigners for remaining in the

European Union. And there were a few decisions like Hinkley Point in the

summer where she marches troops to the top of the hill, only to march

them down again. We need boldness over the next few months. And yet

you left the Conservative Party under David Cameron. You have

rejoined under Theresa May. Are you saying you trust her to deliver it

Brexit in the way you want? What I think is interesting is how Tory

MPs, Anna Soubry is a very principled exception to this, but

how most Tory MPs who backed Remain, have considered the commitment to

Brexit. Anna Soubry is clearly reluctant about accepting it. When

do you think the government should get on with triggering article 50?

Bob Crow can I make this clear? I accept the verdict of the British

people. We said if you vote out, we will get out? ... When should

Article 50 B triggered? We need to know what the principles are. We

need to know what the planners. Obviously, we have to move towards

that. My concern at the moment is from government, all we are hearing

from its people like Liam Fox who are talking in a way which at times

concerns me that he's almost delusional. Just picking up what

Anna said, you cannot say you accept the result and then say freedom of

movement some have asked to continue and we will remain a member of the

single market. That does not add up as an honest acceptance of how

people voted. And the timing for the triggering of article 50. Because

the French and German elections next year, nothing much will happen until

they have chosen their new leader. If we trigger early next year, we

will have six months where Germany and France are not engaged and it

will be six wasted months. He is right, we agree on that! Thank you.

Former Liberal Democrat MP John Hemming, known for his tireless

campaigning, has been locked in a long running battle

with Birmingham council over garden waste collection.

He hasn't been very successful so far, but not one to give up,

he's taken the case to a higher authority.

So our question for today is, where's he taken it?

At the end of the show Tim and Barbara will give us

Today, the Government has announced the early closure of one

of George Osborne's flagship schemes to get people onto

The Help to Buy scheme for England and Wales is being brought to a

close six month early. The government says it has achieved its

goal but it is also being seen as another break from the Cameron era.

Chancellor Philip Hammond has said he will close the Help to Buy scheme

which offered state-backed mortgages to those who could only afford

The scheme helped 185,000 people but has been criticised for pushing

up house prices while doing nothing to address the underlying shortage

Latest figures from the government's House Price Index show the average

a full ?63,000 more than a decade ago.

Meanwhile, London mayor Sadiq Khan has ordered an inquiry

into the scale and impact of foreign investment

He has called for more transparency, warning that a flood of "dirty

money" from abroad is causing "real concerns" for people struggling

A survey by the Institute for Fiscal Studies today shows that

people born in the early 1980s are only half as wealthy as those

born the decade before were at the same age.

Just 40% of those born in the 1980s are owner-occupiers at the age

of 30, compared with at least 55% in previous generations.

We're joined now by the head of policy at housing charity

Welcome to the programme. Shelter gave plans for Help to Buy a

cautious welcome when they were announced in 2013. Do you support

its scrappage today? I think many people will not notice that it has

gone. When it was first launched it was plugging a gap in the market

where those very low deposit loans that a lot of people used in the

2000s and the 90s to buy had dried up in the wake of the recession and

this scheme was trying to replicate those. The market is sort of

providing those again but also people are realising with house

prices where they are and incomes where they are, it is not so much

the deposit which is the issue any more, it is the whole affordability

picture. It delivered double the number of houses it was supposed to

select was working for a lot of people? It was working for a time

but if you look at numbers it has dwindled. We are not concerned about

the fact it will be withdrawn. What we are concerned about is the piece

of the puzzle which was always missing, the emphasis on building

genuinely affordable homes, still is not on the table. We will be looking

at the prime list next week to really set out our plans for what

she will do for on low and middle incomes, as well as the more

affluent people who took advantage of Help to Buy. The Conservatives

have pledged to build 1 million homes as has Jeremy Corbyn, he has

said 500,000 of them will be council homes. The question is affordability

and house prices being pushed up beyond the realms of affordability?

People have got cynical about the big numbers being announced. The

fact is, people see homes going up in their area, and they know if they

are on an ordinary age, they do not have a hope of buying it if it is a

full market sale. That is why the mayor's announcement is interesting.

People have got cynical about the fact they cannot afford anything.

That is why, when the Prime Minister puts more flesh on the plans to

build a million homes, you need to see more diversity of what is being

built. Genuinely low rent homes and products like shared ownership. It

cannot just be market homes. Is Sadiq Khan write about what he says

about dirty money about foreign ownership in London? There is a lot

going on in London and no one has a handle on it. I don't think of many

homes are being left empty as other people suspect but it is not helping

people who live and work in London finding a home when you have foreign

money propping up what is potentially an unsustainable bubble

and building these very, very expensive luxury apartments.

Barbara, do you think the Help to Buy scheme in essence was a good

scheme? I think it was questionable at first because it did not fulfil

the needs that people had witches there were not enough houses being

built which people could afford. I think the Conservatives have tried

something, it has not quite worked, people have criticised it and

instead of fixing it, they have completely taken it away. It was due

to come to an end next year. That is what upsets me, there is no growing

in that and it is not solving the reality of people's problems in

Babel -- being able to afford housing and wages being low. We do

not know what they will replace it with. They have committed to holding

houses but we will have to wait and see because the Conservatives say

one thing and deliver another. Was this a successful scheme or a naive

move which boosted the housing bubble? It was good politics. It

sent a message to people who wanted to buy a home but could not afford

it that the government was helping them, but the problem we have is and

I completely agree with Shelter and I think with the Labour Party, that

we are not building enough affordable housing. Successive

governments have said we need to build more housing but they have not

got a grip. Why? I think in the 1980s there was an economic crisis

and Mrs Thatcher's I was on the bigger economic problems. And we

lost a tradition in the Conservative Party. Harold Macmillan and other

leaders were happy to use statement need to build houses and I think we

need to recover that tradition. At the moment we are spending ?10

billion on housing benefit, so government is involved in the

housing market, that money could be spent not on benefits, but on

bricks, building affordable homes for people. I think it is probably a

forlorn hope but I do hope that we will see a real shift in

Conservative policy, not away from the greatest traditions of

conservatism post-war, just the way from where we got to in the 1980s

and 1990s. Kate Webb, if you are housing minister, and I bet you

would love to be, what would your top policies be, what would the

priority be? I think the priority is about building the genuinely

affordable homes. We do have a great tradition in this country of

building homes for people on low and middle incomes. Is at home ownership

or social housing and council housing, different schemes? It is

about getting away with that obsession with ten years. And if you

build council housing we do have the Right to Buy, it is incredibly

controversial, but it does mean if you have somebody in a council home,

it can work for them when their income is low, and if they're in

crime increases, they can exercise the Right to Buy so we don't have to

see it as an either or. Barbara, Right to Buy has been extended from

council houses into housing associations as well, what do you

make of that? Again, it does not solve the problem of we do not have

enough houses. But as the key issue. We need to physically build more

houses for people to live in. Like myself, I recently graduated and the

idea of owning a home is something I don't think I will ever be able to

afford. And living in London, renting in London is also a way that

young people and people generally get exploited when you have big

businesses coming in and buying up all the properties. People have to

move out or you have overcrowding, especially for Black communities

which I am from. We are not able to afford houses and people do not want

to move anyway because this is where their community is. Whether you

extend it to housing associations or you have another scheme, the main

issues to build houses for people. Kate Webb, do you think Jeremy

Corbyn has got a grip on this, if he talks about building a million

homes, and also giving councils the right to borrow against council

houses, to build even more? I think the right to borrow is extremely

welcome. There are families in temporary accommodation and young

families who want a home of their own so we have to be letting

councils build to meet their local need. We are slightly disappointed

with Jeremy Corbyn for creating a political spat about is it council

houses or housing associations. This is a huge challenge which it is

imperative that we meet and playing politics with either the

Conservative session with homeownership or Corbyn's dislike of

housing associations, it is not helpful.

Tim, borrowing more to build more, do you support that? I do. We still

have a huge deficit that needs to get under control, but borrowing for

schools and the longer term, housing and roads and railways.

International borrowing rates are so low at the moment, we would be

foolish not to take advantage. It's not a Conservative obsession with

homeownership though, the vast majority of people want to own their

own homes. So reversing that sad decline in home ownership should be

a legitimate priority. Will Jeremy Corbyn be

the next Prime Minister? When opinion pollsters ask that

question the results don't always look great

for the Labour leader. But what if you ask

Labour party members? Adam Fleming did just that

as he tested the mood at Labour conference earlier this

week. Questions don't come

bigger than this. Is Jeremy Corbyn going to be

the next Prime Minister? Definitely, 100%?

100%. Nothing is going to get in his way?

I hope not. We now just have to get out there,

feet are going to get hammered. You've got your trainers on already,

I see, ready to go. That's that's how I swan about

conference, in trainers, honestly. I still think he hasn't shown

the leadership he needs to show. What, winning two

leadership elections? No, leadership of unifying

the party and leading Is that the done thing

at this conference, Yes, yes.

If you doubt it, yes. I'm old enough to know

what I'm talking about. I think the media's undermined him

too much and people have lost Well, on the Daily Politics

we are scrupulously fair. I'm not saying the BBC,

I'm saying the papers more. If he's not Prime Minister,

how will you feel? Gutted, because it will mean we've

still got the Tories. Yeah, for another five

years, in four years. I know, it's not worth

thinking about it. What's it going to be like -

Jeremy Corbyn standing on the steps of Downing Street having just

won an election? I think this is the start

of an excellent new future. We have some Labour conference

specials, some Jeremy Corbyn cuff links, and some

Labour Party cuff links as well. Look at that, Jeremy Corbyn

as Che Guevara on your wrists. How much does a Jeremy

for PM badge cost? My brother is called Jeremy,

he's a Tory voter, so I'm Pop a ball in, it doesn't

cost 60p, it's free. You're meant to be

Shadow Foreign Secretary, Peter, we're doing

the Daily Politics balls, is Jeremy going to be the next

Prime Minister, yes or no? You've managed to avoid

the Daily Politics balls all week. Is Jeremy Corbyn going to be

the next Prime Minister? How come the polls suggest that's

really not going to happen? Now you're asking me tricky

questions, I've done your poll. He's just going to put a ball

in, that's all. Well, Tom Watson had the final ball

after managing to evade us all week. He went with the majority of people

at this conference saying yes, Jeremy Corbyn will be the next

Prime Minister, although look Tom Watson saying of course he's

going to be Prime Minister, although a lot of people at the conference

thought that Tom took a slightly different approach to that. Let's

move on. The mood box, there were more balls in the yes box, but there

were a substantial number of noes as well. He still has a lot of people

to convince. 100%. We've definitely got a very long way to go. Frankly,

that's why I was a bit disappointed this summer that we went through all

of this again, to be honest. I thought it would be a great

opportunity for Labour activists like myself and loads of people who

have joined the party and are in Momentum, going out there to

convince Labour supporters and voters to vote for Jeremy and the

plan he has for the country. I think we have some work to do and a lot of

people to convince but I believe we can do it. A lot of Labour delegates

don't think he has what it takes in a YouGov poll this month, the

current Labour leader is a massive 71 points behind the Prime Minister,

he's at -30 and she sat plus 41. It's a shame. Everything that we

have been through this summer is reflected in the polling. It's been

a horrendous summer although we've had this amazing and exciting

campaign and loads of us who have joined Jeremy Corbyn are excited by

it. It's not just this summer, it's an accumulation of events. It's a

number of things, we haven't had unity in the party, people haven't

supported the leader. Getting live resignations on television doesn't

really boost and help your rating is very much. I think the key thing, as

Jeremy said in his message at conference, we want unity, we want

to work together. We have a lot more in common. People might disagree on

how we get there but we want to get there. We want young people to have

opportunities, free education for young people, we want to build more

council houses. Which is all very well, but do you genuinely, in your

heart, feel that your party is on election footing, that you could

fight a general election next month if it were called? Not next month

but give us three months! Differs the summer again! -- give us the

summer again. There is a lot of work to be done internally. You have to

get a Shadow Cabinet together for a start. But I think we are on a

better footing than we were in the summer and before that, especially

after the referendum. I think a lot of Labour MPs and supporters,

however they feel, I think most people want the party to succeed.

Maybe that process will start... You want your party to succeed because

you believe it can do some extraordinary things in society, and

that's where most people will be at. We are told there is a move towards

filling those Shadow Cabinet places next week. Perhaps we will get more

names and people coming forward. Tim, in terms of the membership,

Labour Party membership is well over half a million and is the largest of

any party in western Europe. He is clearly doing something right, isn't

he? Yeah, there are a lot of left-wing people in the United

Kingdom and he has successfully mobilised a good number of them to

pay a membership fee for the Labour Party. You'd like those numbers in

the Conservative Party? Having a healthy membership is good because

you have people to knock on doors and deliver leaflets. So it doesn't

look bad. But looking at the views of those members on issues like

taxation, immigration, membership of the European Union and belief in

conspiracy theories... Conspiracy theories? YouGov quizzed people and

said, do you generally believe in conspiracy theories on things like

9/11, a new Labour member is more likely to believe in a conspiracy

theory. Barbara? I'm sure Barbara is honourable. All my friends don't

believe in conspiracy theories. That might be true of your friends but

the opinion polls do speak for themselves. They can be wrong

sometimes. It's hard when you look at the positions that Labour set out

this week, Jeremy Corbyn wouldn't put a limit on immigration. He wants

?500 billion more of borrowing. He's still in a position where he seems

to be finding excuses for terrorist organisations in history. That's not

true. He doesn't sing the national anthem given me opportunity. I don't

sing the national anthem. I would sing the one from Ghana, because

that's where I'm from. That might be your choice, but I don't think it

would help you get elected by the British people. Let's move from

Ghana to Wales. Students from Wales could face

university fees of up to ?9,000 after the Labour-led government

signalled it would scrap its Currently Welsh students pay only

?3,900 a year towards their degree with the remaining

?5,100 subsidised. But a review has recommended

that the Government should offer loans to pay for fees,

much like the system There would also be grants

for living costs which would be Joining me now from Cardiff

is the President of the NUS Thank you for joining us. Are the

NUS backing the plans of the Welsh government? Yes, we are back in the

plans. We believe more debt for students is bad, however we also

realise that in the current economic climate and the Westminster

posterity climate and the potential impact of Brexit, we have to target

support at students who need it the most and target that support at the

cost of education. Ultimately you can't afford to go to education,

then you can't afford to go to begin with. Students are telling us it's

the cost of living causing a barrier between access and education.

Building up a debt, borrowing against tuition fees you accept, but

you are very worried about the day to day living costs that a student

hast to sustain? Exactly. In Wales we have some of the poorest

communities in Europe. We want to see Welsh government put emphasis on

widening access. We believe it does this by targeting means tested

grants for students from the most disadvantaged background and

disabled students. How confident are you the Welsh government will bring

in both halves of the proposal suggested? Do you trust them not to

simply scrap the grant and go on to water down the commitment to support

living costs? We are very confident. We have been clear all along that we

would only accept diamond as a full package. Anything else would be

unacceptable and wouldn't work. This will only work if the tuition fee

grant goes directly to students in the form of maintenance support.

Barbara Ntumy, Jeremy Corbyn wants to scrap tuition fees. He said that

in conference this week, calling for free education. How does that fit

with a Labour led government in Wales calling for subbing different?

I'm a little bit concerned because the NUS has a policy of free

education and belief in grants, not debt. We had the same situation in

England, we were told it was ?9,000. Now we're seeing the teaching

excellence framework looking to increase that even more and we have

seen the government is completely scrap maintenance grants after they

wouldn't. It's OK for the package to be accepted as it is, but who's to

say that a few years down the line the government in Wales would change

their mind? We need to talk about what happens when students leave

university. Women and black students are likely to take longer to pay

back their student loans because of the income gap. You are saying you

are concerned about the organisation accepting this. What do you say to

that? I think what we have to realise, again, this is the Welsh

contract, we have a Labour government in Wales, and the Diamond

package is trying to work out the system for the next five or ten

years. If the Welsh government was to turn around in the next few years

and scrap maintenance grants, of course we do we be against that. But

we have faith in the Welsh government. The Welsh government

have taken a stance against TEF. There are different context in

England and Wales. That's why Wales is taking a stance. Tim, do you

think this is politicians learning from mistakes or have students just

become more apathetic perhaps or more accepting of realities? More

accepting of reality, not just the NUS in Wales, but the Labour

government in Wales as well. This is where do Barbara and Jeremy Corbyn

are misleading the British people. All these promises of free education

and free housing and free NHS, all without extra taxes. When, and if

they ever, God forbid, had power, you would not be able to afford all

this. Every ?1 you invest in education, the economy grows by ?1

50. I reject the idea that if people want to get higher education and get

a degree, after they do that they become members of society and

contribute, they become people of society and contribute in many ways.

The owners of getting that education should be a personal cost. There's

something really wrong about that. When I get my education, I don't sit

in my room and may education just benefits me, it benefits everyone in

society in the contributions I make and in my work. There's something

very problematic about how we talk about education in this country,

that the individual should bear the cost, and that's very wrong. Jeremy

Corbyn saying to raise corporation tax, or at least not drop it, in

order to pay for the end of tuition fees. That will be a popular policy.

Bashing business is always popular in the short run. Businesses must

pay their fair share of tax. Raising corporation tax is probably one of

the wrong ways of raising tax because a lot of international

businesses are footloose. They can go to other places which taxed less,

not least Ireland just over the water. It is a dangerous policy.

There are consequences. You can hear this is a very lively debate. You

have a coalition government in effect in Wales, well, at least one

Liberal Democrat who is the Education Minister. They were

famously derided as a party in 2010 for breaking their promises on

tuition fees. You say you are confident that this particular

change will go through, but do you think as a result the Lib Dems could

be punished again at the polls for doing this? I think this package is

one that will go to the heart of the problem that is living costs, and I

think it is worth saying I fully agree with Barbara and we want to

move towards a system where we have free education. But in our current

climate we have a restricted Welsh budget and what the Welsh Government

are doing is using this government to Leave budget to target it at the

students who need it the most. That will go towards the poorest students

in full grant form and we welcome, we are using the budget we have to

target those who need support the most. Means testing maintenance

grants paid Tony-macro takes more bureaucracy. Do you think it is a

danger that it might put off some students trying to get into

university because they think they have to go through that process now?

I think we have to do more in schools so students are equipped to

make the right judgments so they can fully understand what path they are

taking and make the decision between vacation and academic pathways.

Barbara, do you think Jeremy Corbyn will be having a word in the ear of

the Labour government in Wales? Identity personally have aligned to

Jeremy Corbyn so I don't know what he's doing! I think we have to help

poorest students in our society and that includes grants. The key thing

is grants not debt. It is not right to give people a grant and then

clobber them with debt. Wales has some of the poorest students. We

know you are likely to be paid less in the same way that black students

and women are and it will take us longer to pay back our student loans

than any other demographic. We want grants and not debt. Right.

One of the most audacious space missions ever undertaken

The Rosetta probe that has been tracking a comet

for the past two years is going to deliberately crash itself into

In the last half an hour it has just deliberately crashed into a ball of

ice and dust. Britain has played a crucial role

in the project which has been led But as Rosetta comes to an end,

is now the time to launch an expanded national space

programme? For the first time, the life cycle

of a comet revealed, thanks to the Rosetta mission. Scientists were

ecstatic two years ago when a spacecraft dropped a robot onto the

comet's surface. It was not the smoothest landing. Attempts to drill

below the surface failed. But... One of the UK instruments was able to

sniff its different gases which came up in the dust cloud when the lander

bounced onto the comet. Did it find anything from sniffing? It did. It

was able to detect water and organic compounds. It was at this UK space

Centre near Oxford that the sniffing instrument was put together.

Recently, the UK space economy and workforce has grown and grown. By

wearing this protective clothing, we can come right up to the space

testing chamber, the largest in the UK, which should be operational in

the New Year. It will be used to test equipment meant for space in a

variety of pressures to see if it still remains accurate. Britain is a

world leader in the manufacturer of small satellites and has its eye on

commercial space flights. The UK is the fourth largest contributor to

the Rosetta mission's creator, the European Space Agency, but MPs on

the science committee want to see more of the National space

programme. The government is to be clearer about where space can

benefit the broad economy. We get a huge amount of data out of the

investment we put into space, we don't currently make the best use of

that. MPs also criticised the skills crisis facing the sector which is

being addressed thanks to Britain's latest space hero. We have worked

hard to inspire the next generation through Tim Peake's mission to the

ISS which engaged a million schoolkids. Right now, the UK space

sector is very much in its ascendancy. Post was that there is a

pot of ?1 billion to invest in upcoming missions, but which ones?

-- post-Rosetta. We're looking at big mission is to look at gravity

building. There is a big x-ray mission. Which mission would you

like to see it spend the money on? Me personally, I think the XO Mars

mission is an exciting one and it is part of a programme which would lead

eventually to man's flight to Mars. From curious British scientists,

many missions have been conjured up, but the challenge for MPs is to

nurture a home-grown programme going forward.

We can talk now to our correspondent Rebecca morale. Can you hear us?

There is a big delay -- Rebecca you can communicate with a

spacecraft up in space but talking to me in Germany is a challenge! You

have something in your hand, what an earth is that? A prop. You have

always got to have a prop. It is a little model of the comet. The

Rosetta has been an tremendous journey. A few minutes ago touched

down on the comet's surface. The head of the comet. It has a body and

a head. That is the end of the Rosetta spacecraft. It was quite

controlled rather than explosive dissent. It was not designed to do

this. It was designed to fly around the comet. It took ten years to

reach this comet but it was never designed to cut down. The comet is

currently speeding away from the sun. Rosetta is actually solar

powered. The power has been fading really. They had two choices to let

it fade into the oblivion of deep space but they did not want to do

that. They wanted to go out in style so they sent it heading down onto

the comet's surface. There are pictures of the scientists cheering

as that moment happened. It is extraordinary, you go war that way

and then you get crashed into the comet you have been chasing. But

never mind. The essential information will be beamed back to

Earth, we hope and scientists will be able to learn from what they have

found. That is right. One of the reasons why they had this crash

landing was to squeeze every drop of science out of this mission. All the

way it was descending down, it was journey which took many hours. It

was taking lots of pictures and gathering data. There has been the

two years of data it has been collecting. It has taken thousands

of photos over the lifetime of its mission. There was so much science.

The operation phase of the mission has come to an end but the science

phase will continue. The team think there will be enough to keep going

for decades. There is pride in what they have done but also sadness. We

have had tears this afternoon which is unusual sometimes to see from a

bunch of scientists but they put so much into this mission. Rebecca,

thank you. Here's Ellie with the

Week in 60 Seconds. By the end of the evening I will be

blamed for everything. Why not? This week saw the first US presidential

debate. Conference, United, we can shape the

future. Jeremy Corbyn's conference speech went down well apart from the

part where he thanked Sadiq Khan. Clive Lewis 's speech had apparently

been changed at the last minute to keep open the possibility of

scrapping Trident. Theresa May's people hit back at

claims that she was branded lily livid over proposed EU immigration

controls. Actually, she supported him with the idea of an emergency

brake, they said. There's just time before we go

to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was, to which authority

has the former Liberal Democrat MP John Hemming taken his battle

with Birmingham Council over Is it: a) The European

Court of Justice? Does anyone know, I wonder? Lets ask

the man himself. John Hemming joins us live

via webcam from Birmingham. Indeed, the wonders of technology.

It is the article 's convention compliance commission ashlar

committee which is part of the United Nations. Why have you gone to

the United Nations? To is very important that people have access to

justice, that you can challenge the local authority without facing

ridiculous arguments like you should have met in person. We have had

telephones for years and years and years, so it should not be necessary

to meet in person to win a case. If you take my case against the

council, in a practical sense, I won. I took action to get the

council to clear up rubbish that it was refusing as a matter of policy

to clear up. They cleared up the rubbish but the judge decided

because I did not have a meeting with them at

which they would have told me nothing, that I should pay their

costs. In a couple of seconds, when will you find out when you have been

successful? The first step is at 5:30am tonight when I will here is

my case is deemed admissible. That is like the permission to appeal

stage at the Court of Appeal or at any court in the UK. If I get that

permission, then there will be further steps. You will be

celebrating, no doubt, if you get the United Nations to rule on the

fly-tipping. Thank you. The one o'clock news is starting

over on BBC One now. Andrew will be in Birmingham on

Sunday with the Sunday Politics live from the Conservative Party

Conference and, if that's not enough, I'll be on the Westminster

Hour on Radio 4 on Sunday evening.