10/10/2016 Daily Politics


10/10/2016

Jo Coburn is joined by Labour MP Dawn Butler and Conservative MP Oliver Dowden to discuss the continuing row of whether companies should name their foreign employees.


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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Theresa May embarks on a diplomatic offensive in European capitals

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to make the case for a fair deal for Britain outside the EU.

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But should Parliament be consulted before negotiations begin?

:00:46.:00:50.

Sparks fly in the second presidential debate

:00:51.:00:53.

between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton.

:00:54.:00:55.

Did the scandal-hit Republican candidate do enough

:00:56.:00:57.

Ukip's Steven Woolfe leaves hospital following that dust-up

:00:58.:01:04.

Despite the incident, he's still the favourite to become leader.

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And should parts of the countryside be turned back into wilderness?

:01:10.:01:15.

Environmentalist George Monbiot has climbed on to his soapbox.

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What I perceive when I see places like this is a barren wasteland.

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All that in the next hour and with us for the whole

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of the programme today is the Conservative

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MP Oliver Dowden, and Dawn Butler, who has been promoted

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to Jeremy Corbyn's shadow cabinet in the brand new role

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of Shadow Minister for Diverse Communities.

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First today, the Prime Minister is shortly to arrive in Copenhagen

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for talks with her Danish counterpart over Britain's exit

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After that, she'll head to the Hague to meet the Dutch Prime Minister.

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Meanwhile here, David Davis, the Secretary of State for Leaving

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the EU will make a statement to the Commons later this

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afternoon on the Government's approach to Brexit.

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This comes after the former Labour leader Ed Miliband has said

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Parliament should have a say on the shape of any Brexit deal.

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Here is what he had to say earlier today.

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If they begin the negotiations without consulting Parliament,

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then after two years, or less than two years, they'll just

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come to Parliament and say, "Well, it's yes or no".

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I mean, I assume they'll try and get the final

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We need to be knowing now what the Government is going to be

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negotiating for and I believe they need to get the consent

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of MPs because there's no other mandate here.

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The Conservative manifesto said that the Conservative Party

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was determined to stay in the single market.

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Now, it sounded from what Theresa May and some

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of her ministers were saying that we were going to

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leave the single market, contrary to the manifesto.

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So there's no mandate for a hard Brexit, a huge separation

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from the single market, I don't believe, and that's why

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I think Parliament's got to be consulted.

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That was Ed Miliband. Is he right to say leaving the single market would

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break a commitment on your Tory manifesto? I looked at the wedding

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of the manifesto before I came on the programme and I don't think he

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is correct on that. The clear manifesto commitment was to hold

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that in our referendum. I remember there was scepticism on the doorstep

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about whether we would deliver on it but we did deliver on it. The

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manifesto says, we will safeguard British interests in the single

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market. That was setting out the negotiating asks as part of the then

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Prime Minister's renegotiation strategy but the clear commitment

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was on the referendum. All this sort of talk is still going back and

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trying to ask the question all over again. I was a reluctant remain but

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I accept what the British people said and I think we should deliver

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on it. Was actually says more clearly, "We are clear what we want

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for Europe, we say yes to the single market". There was no way of

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equivocating about that. You said yes to the single market. If we get

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into technicalities of that, that is the paragraph that sets out what the

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primates in -- premise to's negotiation asks were. Are you

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saying that is not a clear commitment? That is not what you

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meant, saying we will safeguard British interests in the single

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market, we are clear about saying yes to the single market. I didn't

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personally write the manifesto. You are in the party that did. I stand

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by that manifesto. You stood on a manifesto. And that paragraph was

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asking what the asks were for that renegotiation. What the Prime

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Minister set out to get he didn't get fully at negotiation and the

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British people chose to leave Europe. The battle now as to what

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that Brexit looks like. Did the British people vote referendum for

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the UK to come out of the single market? For me, during that

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referendum campaign, there were two very big themes. People wanted to

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have control of migration and they wanted control of their own laws.

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The problem with the single market is that it has four fundamental

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principles, freedom of movement, goods, services, capital and labour

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and if you look back to why we got into this whole referendum on the

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first place, one of the big issues was that we wanted to be able to

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control migration, including from Europe, and it is quite difficult to

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do that within the single market. So do you agree, then, that the two are

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mutually exclusive. If Theresa May says we are no longer under the

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jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice and we want to control

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borders, she wants the UK out of the single market? The strategy the

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Prime Minister has set out, as I understand it, is to try and get a

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deal suitable for Britain. We're not going to be constrained by existing

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constructs. What do you say to the idea that the referendum has given

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some sort of mandate to the government to decide how Brexit

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negotiations are going to take shape? I think talking about the

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negotiations on the asks is very important to what people voted for.

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Yes, the question was a very simple in or out but what are the terms of

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the out? What are the terms of the exit strategy? Should there be a

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vote? Does Labour want to see a vote in parliament on the Government's

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initial negotiating position? Labour would like to see a vote on the

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terms so people, for instance, thought they were voting for an

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extra ?350 million in the NHS. That was very clearly set out as one of

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the negotiating terms in the campaign. What you say that you want

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to have a vote and that is what Kier Starmer, the shadow Brexit

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secretary, said yesterday but Diane Abbott, the Shadow Home Secretary,

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said, "We have to be careful not to look as if we are not listening to

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the result," and she wouldn't actually say that there should be a

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vote so is she right or is Kier Starmer? No, because we are not

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requesting or asking for people to rerun the election. What are you

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asking for? We are not saying yes or no again. People have said we want

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to leave the EU so we've accepted that people want to leave the EU.

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What are the terms of that exit? Is it a hard Brexit? Are you saying

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that we leave and we're out of the single market? Should there be a

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vote on that? Yes, the bubbly to know what they are voting for. So

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Diane Abbott, who wouldn't sign up to, was not speaking for the Labour

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Party, Kier Starmer is? They are essentially saying the same thing.

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What Diana saying is that we don't want to rerun the referendum, to ask

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people again, do you want to leave? Are you happy with your Prime

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Minister's negotiation is? When should that be? Before it is agreed

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in the EE you that this is the terms on which we will leave. Straight

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after article 50 of the vote -- is invoked? We're not saying that

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step-by-step Theresa May has to come back and say, this is what I've

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negotiated but an big things like single market, which is going to

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affect a lot of businesses, the public need to know what that means.

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There is growing pressure now for there to be a vote on whether the UK

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remains part of the single market and whether that should be part of

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the negotiations. I'm slightly confused as to Labour's stands

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because Ed Miliband seem to suggest that the vote would take place

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before invoking article 50, so it was a sort of negotiating mandate it

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a very different question if it is on the outcome of the negotiation

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process. I don't think there was confusion in terms of, what is it

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that is going to happen when we leave the EU? People need to know,

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what will it look like? What does it mean? Is this on the Government's

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negotiating stance or on the outcome? As I understood, it was on

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the negotiating stance. In that case, I have two problems with it.

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The first is the negotiating is clearly an executive power, an

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exercise of royal prerogative, and the reason for that is that the

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Prime Minister of the day, or whoever is undertaking the

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negotiation, needs to have the flexibility. That's why it's

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exercised as a royal brother to power. I have a wider political

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problem with it which is that I remember during the election

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campaign, we had very clear battle stood up on one side was pledged

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economic argument and on the other was the very compelling argument

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about controlling migration and controlling our laws... Do you

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accept many people didn't think that would mean coming out of the single

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market? Rupert Morgan, the Tory MP, has said that leaving the single

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market would break the commitment the Tories have made and that the

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negotiating stance should be something that is voted on by MPs. I

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think everyone is assuming we are going to get out of the single

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market it there was a negotiating process to go on. I hope the Prime

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Minister can get the very best deal possible. Let's not try and prejudge

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the exact nature that. If we are going to leave the single market, is

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it right that people understand that before the negotiations continue? As

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I said, it doesn't make sense to start binding the Government's hands

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before the negotiating process. Before we leave this, you were David

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Cameron's deputy chief of staff and are now a backbencher under Theresa

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May. It is a very different government now, obviously, post the

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referendum. Are you as comfortable with the government you had now as

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you were under David Cameron? I am completely comfortable. I thought

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the Primus's speech in the hall was a fantastic speech. There are two

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phases. What we had under David Cameron as our Prime Minister was

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somebody who got control of the economy, fixed Britain's broken

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finances, adopted a more inclusive stands for the Conservative Party.

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So why has Theresa May dumped everybody from that era? I think

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most of the government are the same as were under David Cameron but what

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Theresa May recognised in her speech was, first of all, we need to

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embrace Brexit and the consequences of that but, also, we need to

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embrace people that feel they've been left behind over the past two

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decades and for a Conservative government that believes in

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capitalism, as I do, it is very important that we must constantly

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review our mission. Of course, 48% didn't vote in favour of leaving the

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EU. That's how elections work. Indeed.

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According to newspaper reports, officials in the Foreign Office

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think they've found someone whom they've labelled their secret

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weapon to help them with Brexit negotiations, so our question

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At the end of the show, Dawn and Oliver will give us

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The Government says it will not force UK firms to list or name any

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Last week, a Conservative briefing suggested firms would have to be

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"clear about the proportion of their workforce

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Labour says the Government is "in disarray" over the policy.

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The government says critics have misunderstood the plans.

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On Tuesday the Home Secretary, Amber Rudd, told the Conservative

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Party Conference that the Government would be "examining

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whether we should tighten the test companies have to take before

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She added, "The test should ensure people coming here are filling gaps

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in the labour market, not taking jobs British

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She was referring to the Resident Labour Market Test,

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which businesses have to undertake when they want to recruit non-EU

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workers, to demonstrate they are filling genuine gaps

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This requires a company to advertise the role

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in the UK for 28 days and demonstrate no qualified

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In a briefing after the speech, the Government said it would consult

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to "set out the impact on the local labour force of their foreign

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recruitment and be clear about the proportion of their workforce

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The next day, The Times newspaper led with the following headline:

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The sub-heading read, "Plan to shame companies that turn

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In an interview on the Today programme, Ms Rudd said she wanted

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to "flush out" firms that were abusing the current rules.

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who campaigned for Britain to remain in the EU,

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said, "Those of us who find the denigration of non-British

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workers appalling have a duty to speak out."

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Michael Fallon, insisted, "We will not be asking companies to list

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or publish or name or identify in any way the number of foreign

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He said, "We're going to consult with business

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on how we can do more to encourage companies,

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to look first at the British labour market."

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Has there been a U-turn on this? There most certainly hasn't done if

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you look at the quotes, Amber Rudd never actually said there was going

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to be some sort of naming or shaming or public register. But she did say

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they would have to list to the numbers of none British workers. I

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think it is sensible in terms of managing immigration policy.

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Remember, we need to get immigration under control, to actually have a

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sense of how many foreign workers a company employs. I don't think this

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is terribly radical. They do it in the United States... I didn't ask

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whether it was radical. What I'm saying is, has there been a U-turn?

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Is the Government now going to require foreign workers to list how

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many none British people they have working for them? Goal but there is

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a consultation on going and I think that will be one of the proposals

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the consultation. So it is still there? What is being argued is that

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somehow the Home Secretary made the case that companies would be

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published and named unchanged. It is about managing migration. Let's take

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it one stage at a time. You said there is a consultation going on,

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whether companies will be required to publish the numbers none British

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workers they have. Not publish. Published suggest that it is put out

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into the public domain. That is the U-turn, because that was the

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implication. Can you show me where the Home Secretary said there would

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be published register? I am baffled by this. I can't see where the Home

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Secretary publicly said there would be a published register.

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Well they've had to deny its. It's hard to U-turn when it was not

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policy in the first place. So you can categorically say a list will

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not be made public. I don't think there was ever a proposal for its.

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But they will be required to come up with the data? It's one of the ideas

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under consideration as part of the consultation. What do you think?

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This has been clarified by Michael Farren and reiterated why Oliver

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Dowd and that these comments were misinterpreted? I think the whole

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premise of having a list worries me, whether it is published or secret.

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Identifying the government should have a secret list of foreign

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workers. -- I do not think the government should have a secret

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list. The tone of the debate around migration and immigration is

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worrying me, and the road this government is going down is deeply

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disturbing. Having a list per se is the wrong way to tackle it. Did you

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feel the same when Ed Miliband suggested this very idea in 2011?

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Yes, I do not believe there should be a list, secret or published. Did

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you make your voice public at the time when Ed Miliband floated this

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exact idea of telling job centres which firms had more than 25% of

:17:02.:17:08.

foreign staff? Ed Miliband did not make a public statement. He made a

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speech. He did not make a speech at a party conference calling for

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companies to publish a list of foreign workers and talked about

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jobs that are just people can take instead. What did Gordon Brown say?

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He said British jobs for British workers. And what happened when he

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said that? The whole thing you up and he retracted that. So he was

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wrong but you were a minister, did you say he was wrong at the time? I

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did and he apologised at the time. I have not seen any retraction, all I

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have seen is the government say, let's not nit-pick, let's look at

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the details. The details are what are important, you are in

:17:51.:17:53.

government, it is important what you say and the message you give out to

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the public. We have been through this discussion, it was not ever the

:17:58.:18:00.

intention that it would be published. Secondly I cannot

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understand your outrage over this. As Jo was saying, this is something

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Ed Miliband proposed in 2011, and for Labour to jump on the bandwagon

:18:14.:18:17.

and call it outrageous does not ring true. And the labour policy on

:18:18.:18:26.

immigration is slightly confused. Kir Starmer was saying you should

:18:27.:18:30.

reduce numbers, what is the actual policy? What Labour is talking about

:18:31.:18:35.

is putting systems in place to make sure people are properly paid, wages

:18:36.:18:39.

are not undercut, and by companies doing that it will naturally bring

:18:40.:18:42.

down immigration of people that are coming in and working. We are

:18:43.:18:48.

looking at structures and systems. What Labour is definitely not saying

:18:49.:18:51.

is going down the road of having a secret list of foreign workers. But

:18:52.:18:56.

should the numbers actually come down? That's the question. Does

:18:57.:19:00.

Labour believe that the number of migrants or the number of people

:19:01.:19:04.

migrating to the UK, should they come down? We've quite clearly said

:19:05.:19:09.

you cannot put a number on immigration because that is an

:19:10.:19:13.

arbitrary number and it has never worked. Keir

:19:14.:19:23.

Starmer has said that the numbers should come down. If people are

:19:24.:19:29.

properly paid, naturally that will bring numbers down. So what are we

:19:30.:19:36.

are doing to make sure people are getting paid the right amount. Is

:19:37.:19:40.

the next level of migration to high? I don't think that we should look at

:19:41.:19:47.

it in those terms. Keir Starmer says that number should come down. It is

:19:48.:19:52.

how we work towards a fair immigration policy in the UK. I

:19:53.:19:56.

understand that. Not how we denigrate people who are coming and

:19:57.:20:00.

working. Is Keir Starmer denigrating when he says he would like the net

:20:01.:20:06.

migration figure two come down? Said that is what Keir Starmer has said

:20:07.:20:11.

but then you have to look at what he is putting in place and that is the

:20:12.:20:15.

difference in terms of what the Labour Party is saying and what the

:20:16.:20:19.

Tory party is saying. Do you think this was handled well by Amber Rudd

:20:20.:20:24.

and the Home Office? The briefing by the Home Office said the government

:20:25.:20:28.

would consult on whether to require businesses to be clear about the

:20:29.:20:32.

proportion of their workforce which is international. Not as transparent

:20:33.:20:36.

as it could have been. It did lead to calls in the press condiment the

:20:37.:20:41.

government for what seemed to be, some even saying xenophobic remarks,

:20:42.:20:45.

was it handled well? I think the Home Office handled it perfectly

:20:46.:20:49.

well. What is actually going on is there is a group of people looking

:20:50.:20:54.

for any excuse to revisit the Brexit decision. Which group are you

:20:55.:20:58.

talking about? The media are constantly looking for splits and

:20:59.:21:01.

divisions where there are none. The policy has been clear all along. A

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lot of the people that have seized on this are trying to go back to the

:21:06.:21:09.

original Brexit argument itself. I think that argument has been settled

:21:10.:21:13.

by the British people. Part of that is certainly controlling migration,

:21:14.:21:17.

something the Prime Minister is committed to doing. Steve Hilton

:21:18.:21:22.

said the plan was divisive, Republic and insanely bureaucratic. Is it

:21:23.:21:28.

right to put more bureaucracy from a Tory government on businesses? I

:21:29.:21:32.

read his argument, he made some good points, but I do not agree. Why did

:21:33.:21:39.

he write it? He is perfectly capable of speaking for himself will stop

:21:40.:21:42.

lots of people have got carried away with something that is not a radical

:21:43.:21:46.

policy, it is something they do in the United States, something Ed

:21:47.:21:50.

Miliband proposed previously. This is about trying to control migration

:21:51.:21:53.

which was a central issue, and the Prime Minister is determined to

:21:54.:21:58.

deliver on its. Let's talk about business reaction, these are the

:21:59.:22:01.

people that would be involved in making lists or making clear how

:22:02.:22:05.

many non-British people they employ. The head of the CBI, not a

:22:06.:22:10.

hysterical person, has warned that the Prime Minister risks closing the

:22:11.:22:13.

door on an open economy, and not just talking about the issue we've

:22:14.:22:17.

been discussing, she is talking more broadly about the whole tone of the

:22:18.:22:20.

conference being anti-business and not welcoming, you accept that? I

:22:21.:22:26.

really do not recognise this. I sat through the Prime Minister's speech

:22:27.:22:30.

and that's not what I took from it, and not what I took from what the

:22:31.:22:34.

Chancellor said. Conservative Party has always been and will continue to

:22:35.:22:39.

be committed to an open economy, low taxes, deregulation. And as we even

:22:40.:22:43.

the European Union it is more important than ever that we face out

:22:44.:22:47.

to the world. That is not to deny that there were two very clear

:22:48.:22:50.

messages from the referendum campaign. Number one was, people

:22:51.:22:55.

wanted to control migration. Number two, people wanted control of their

:22:56.:22:59.

own laws. When you say people, you are talking about 52%, you make it

:23:00.:23:05.

sound like a vast majority. And what Carolyn Fairbairn is saying and

:23:06.:23:09.

warning the Prime Minister is that if you take the issue of immigration

:23:10.:23:13.

to fire then you will harm the economy. First of all you say it was

:23:14.:23:20.

52 versus 48, actually I think if you look at what that number means,

:23:21.:23:24.

more people voted for Brexit than voted for any political party in a

:23:25.:23:29.

generation. That's not what I'm saying. It was not a vast majority.

:23:30.:23:34.

Sane people is not quite the same as saying 80%, is it? I never said it

:23:35.:23:38.

was the vast majority of people. I was clear during the referendum

:23:39.:23:43.

campaign, these arguments were well aired. And for me this was where the

:23:44.:23:48.

balance life. It was between the economic argument and the very

:23:49.:23:52.

strong arguments for controlling migration and our own laws. On

:23:53.:23:55.

balance people decided for the latter rather than the former. For

:23:56.:23:59.

Now for some politics on the other side of the pond.

:24:00.:24:02.

It was billed as the showdown that could decide the US election,

:24:03.:24:05.

as Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump went head to head in a candidates'

:24:06.:24:08.

After a disastrous weekend for the Trump campaign,

:24:09.:24:11.

which saw the Republican candidate having to defend comments he'd made

:24:12.:24:14.

about groping women, the pressure was on Clinton to bury

:24:15.:24:16.

In the end, with Mr Trump deciding attack was the best form of defence,

:24:17.:24:22.

it was not so much sparks flying, as fireworks exploding.

:24:23.:24:24.

First of all, let's take a look at some of the highlights

:24:25.:24:27.

Ladies and gentlemen, the Republican nominee

:24:28.:24:31.

for president, Donald J Trump, and the Democratic nominee

:24:32.:24:33.

You described kissing women without their consent,

:24:34.:24:41.

You brag that you have sexually assaulted women.

:24:42.:24:45.

I don't think you understood what was said.

:24:46.:24:53.

I apologised to my family, I apologised to the American people.

:24:54.:25:01.

He has said that the video doesn't represent who he is,

:25:02.:25:06.

but I think it's clear to anyone who heard it that it represents

:25:07.:25:09.

If you look at Bill Clinton, far worse.

:25:10.:25:14.

There's never been anybody in the history of politics

:25:15.:25:21.

in this nation that's been so abusive to women.

:25:22.:25:24.

And I'll tell you what - I didn't think I'd say this

:25:25.:25:27.

but I'm going to say it, and I hate to say it,

:25:28.:25:30.

to instruct my Attorney General to get a special prosecutor

:25:31.:25:39.

to look into your situation because there has never been so many

:25:40.:25:42.

There has never been anything like it and we're

:25:43.:25:47.

When I speak, I go out and speak, the people of this

:25:48.:25:53.

It's just awfully good that someone with the temperament of Donald Trump

:25:54.:25:58.

is not in charge of the law in our country.

:25:59.:26:00.

I pay tax and I pay federal tax, too.

:26:01.:26:08.

A lot of it is depreciation, which is a wonderful charge.

:26:09.:26:12.

Hey, if she had a problem, for 30 years she's been

:26:13.:26:19.

Why didn't she do something about it?

:26:20.:26:24.

Why didn't she do something about it?

:26:25.:26:27.

She doesn't do anything about anything other than talk.

:26:28.:26:29.

With her, it's all talk and no action.

:26:30.:26:32.

Would either of you name one positive thing that

:26:33.:26:35.

His children are incredibly able and devoted and I think that says

:26:36.:26:53.

She does fight hard and she doesn't quit and she doesn't give up

:26:54.:27:00.

and I consider that to be a very good trait.

:27:01.:27:03.

I'm joined now by Jan Halper-Hayes, the chair of Republican Overseas,

:27:04.:27:13.

and the playwright and critic Bonnie Greer,

:27:14.:27:15.

welcome to both of you. Jan, to be clear, if it over for double charm

:27:16.:27:30.

following the revolution revelations of those audio tapes? No. If he had

:27:31.:27:36.

not handled himself as well as he handled himself last night it would

:27:37.:27:40.

have been over. But a lot of people are saying he really is back in the

:27:41.:27:45.

game. Plus, 96% of his supporters are still with him. Only 4%

:27:46.:27:51.

defected. Are you still with him after this? I will continue to

:27:52.:27:54.

defend him because we need a Republican in the White House. For

:27:55.:27:59.

tax reform, for the Supreme Court. It's vital. And what was your

:28:00.:28:03.

reaction to the tapes about him bragging about groping women? You

:28:04.:28:08.

know, asking me is a little unfair because I wrote a bestseller and

:28:09.:28:13.

interviewed over 4000 men and followed 43 men's lives. Men like

:28:14.:28:16.

Donald Trump have been my clients. Alpha males behave that way so it

:28:17.:28:21.

was not shocking to me. But should he be president? You know, it was 11

:28:22.:28:26.

years ago. And I know there is an enormous amount of anti-bias, an

:28:27.:28:31.

enormous amount of criticism, but is he the same and what has he learned

:28:32.:28:35.

from this? He's still in the game says Jan. Of course he is. Because

:28:36.:28:42.

he's an alpha male. It's interesting listening to Jan, I have Republicans

:28:43.:28:46.

in my family. And people don't deal with the fact that there is a strong

:28:47.:28:52.

African American conservatism that is very quiet, but it's there, OK?

:28:53.:28:57.

It's epitomised by people like on Rice,: Powell. They are gone from

:28:58.:29:04.

here. What is interesting listening to Jan, I totally respect her, it is

:29:05.:29:10.

interesting, many Republicans like her are putting their hands up.

:29:11.:29:14.

There are people saying we have two vote for this man because we do need

:29:15.:29:18.

a Republican. We are in a cycle, we need a Republican in the White

:29:19.:29:21.

House. But they don't want to present for him and the reason is

:29:22.:29:26.

because he is not a Republican. He has taken over the Republican party

:29:27.:29:30.

and that's the part that scary for a lot of people. He did a lot of dog

:29:31.:29:33.

whistling last night which is how he is advised. He did a lot of low

:29:34.:29:38.

information global waffling which talked to his supporters. And these

:29:39.:29:42.

are not necessarily the Republican Party. Did you read that we have the

:29:43.:29:46.

most unfavourable dislike candidates across the board. No question. You

:29:47.:29:52.

would agree with that with Hillary Clinton? Her unfavourable statistics

:29:53.:29:58.

are below his, but they are up there and they have been dug up for the

:29:59.:30:01.

last three years. One of the reasons that exists is because we are in a

:30:02.:30:05.

political environment now, not the kind I grew up in, where we are in a

:30:06.:30:11.

media driven, social media driven age, where people can actually

:30:12.:30:15.

intervene in a process that took a lot more thinking and new ones.

:30:16.:30:21.

Hillary Clinton was up there last night giving policies, you can like

:30:22.:30:25.

them or not, but she was doing policies. He was doing sound bites

:30:26.:30:30.

and talking to his base. And the media was egging this craziness on.

:30:31.:30:36.

And what do you say, Jan? It seemed too many people that the debate

:30:37.:30:39.

plumbed new lows in terms of political discourse, do you agree?

:30:40.:30:44.

I think the whole debate season through the primaries and now does.

:30:45.:30:51.

But this debate particularly, between the two of them, talking

:30:52.:30:55.

about sexual allegations on both sides, the personal ill servants --

:30:56.:31:01.

insults, the prowling round the studio, they wouldn't shake hands.

:31:02.:31:07.

Donald put his hand out and, actually, the life polls noticed

:31:08.:31:09.

that. She didn't want to shake hands with him. But I think there are some

:31:10.:31:19.

really important things to look at. Seven out of ten voters think the

:31:20.:31:21.

country is going in the wrong direction. Three think it is OK to

:31:22.:31:31.

write. What we need to understand and really what voters are

:31:32.:31:36.

deliberating, do we want someone status quo, conscious, security,

:31:37.:31:41.

values the institutions, do we want someone more like JFK or Ronald

:31:42.:31:46.

Reagan, here and now, takes action, doesn't spend a lot of time... I'm

:31:47.:31:54.

hearing you! Where is that comparison with JFK? I'm old enough

:31:55.:32:00.

to remember JFK, Reagan. The Republican party hasn't promised

:32:01.:32:02.

fast from their top candidate Watergate, OK? Could I explain why I

:32:03.:32:10.

said it? I haven't taken the presidential assessment used with 41

:32:11.:32:19.

presidents. He's losing white suburban women, he's losing women

:32:20.:32:23.

like Jan. She knows it's true and what is out there, people are

:32:24.:32:28.

talking about a silent 12. I put money on a silent Hillary. I think

:32:29.:32:31.

there are people on the right sitting at the back, like Barbara

:32:32.:32:37.

Bush, George HW Bush, Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice, who say, my

:32:38.:32:42.

country is first. You are quoted as saying that Donald Trump is

:32:43.:32:46.

psychologically balanced. When you say that people don't want Hillary

:32:47.:32:50.

Clinton as a continuation of the status quo and that she is a deeply

:32:51.:32:53.

unpopular candidate, is it worth voting for someone who is

:32:54.:32:57.

psychologically imbalanced, in your view? Lets be accurate about the

:32:58.:33:02.

quote. I raised the issue that since the convention, and so it was on

:33:03.:33:06.

August three, that there was an element of him that was concerning

:33:07.:33:10.

me in his behaviour that looked like psychologically imbalanced. And, you

:33:11.:33:14.

know, I have a very, very consciously been watching things,

:33:15.:33:18.

been in touch with the campaign people, the RNC, and, for me,

:33:19.:33:23.

changing his leadership, he's making progress. Where is he changing his

:33:24.:33:30.

leadership? If you are talking about bragging of sexual assault and

:33:31.:33:36.

locker room... How was he changing it? Taking that as sexual assault,

:33:37.:33:40.

as one who has counselled sexual assault victims, he even said last

:33:41.:33:46.

night it was more bragging and he hadn't done it. But I think... Why I

:33:47.:33:53.

am not so worried on either side of it is we've got Congress and we just

:33:54.:33:58.

might spend two years in gridlock. OK. That is one of the things put

:33:59.:34:02.

forward by Republicans, that there would be gridlocked. Why didn't

:34:03.:34:07.

Hillary Clinton, to coin a phrase, kill off his presidency nomination?

:34:08.:34:16.

She's not mud wrestling. She came out there with her policies. 85% of

:34:17.:34:20.

the people... Young kids were watching this in our country. We

:34:21.:34:25.

have civics and they go back to school and talk about the debates.

:34:26.:34:30.

Wasn't it an opportunity missed? She didn't have to be a mud sling at.

:34:31.:34:33.

She had everything in front of her and she still didn't manage it. She

:34:34.:34:38.

would have had to go in there on her husband and deal with what he was

:34:39.:34:42.

putting out. He was putting out garbage. Garbage in, garbage out.

:34:43.:34:47.

She made a decision. She won the debate in terms of the Poults. Some

:34:48.:34:53.

of them were very close. Women were sitting around, I promise you, and

:34:54.:34:56.

what Jan said was very good and very true. Women are sitting around

:34:57.:35:02.

thinking this one, who was prowling behind her like an orange column, is

:35:03.:35:07.

not somebody I want to be the president of the United States. I

:35:08.:35:10.

think we've got that loud and clear! He's not out of the game yet, is he?

:35:11.:35:15.

It doesn't seem so, which is quite shocking to me because I would've

:35:16.:35:20.

thought he would be out of the game. I think that we've just had all the

:35:21.:35:24.

around Jimmy Savile and, you know, a man who was... People are not

:35:25.:35:29.

surprised now because he was so gross on the outside, people

:35:30.:35:32.

couldn't believe he was so gross on the inside. And I just think Trump

:35:33.:35:36.

has told us what he's like. He doesn't respect women in any way.

:35:37.:35:41.

Avid supporter still support in. He's still got the support and

:35:42.:35:44.

you're going to give a man like that the keys to the White House, make

:35:45.:35:48.

him one of the most powerful men in the country? Somebody who doesn't

:35:49.:35:52.

respect women? He has said it is about having power and is about

:35:53.:35:56.

powerful people over the powerless and you're going to give somebody

:35:57.:35:59.

who already abuses power more power? I just don't understand it. What

:36:00.:36:04.

depresses me the most during this election year is that it has become

:36:05.:36:07.

personalities as opposed to policies.

:36:08.:36:11.

It is always personalities to some extent. He does talk about some

:36:12.:36:18.

policies. He talked a bit about Isis and supporting Bashar Al-Assad

:36:19.:36:21.

because he says, at least they are fighting Isis. What do you take away

:36:22.:36:24.

from this presidential campaign and last night's debate? It's

:36:25.:36:28.

interesting that you are talking about Ronald Reagan. I remember as a

:36:29.:36:33.

child growing up watching Ronald Reagan, we be living up to him

:36:34.:36:36.

admiring him as a leader of the free world. My real concern about the

:36:37.:36:41.

trump candidacy is not the specific comments, it is just the whole tone

:36:42.:36:44.

of the man. I have a seven-year-old daughter and I can't see her looking

:36:45.:36:48.

up to Donald Trump as being the leader of the free world, not just

:36:49.:36:51.

in terms of his dreadful comments but also in terms of his wider

:36:52.:36:55.

stance, playing footsie with the likes of Putin, being equivocal on

:36:56.:36:59.

the stands in Syria. I don't think he's got what it takes to lead the

:37:00.:37:05.

free world and that's where my problem lies. With your

:37:06.:37:06.

seven-year-old be upset about booting? She will in time! She's

:37:07.:37:11.

quite sophisticated. Thank you very much.

:37:12.:37:14.

Now, let's take a look at what else is happening in the Week Ahead.

:37:15.:37:17.

Jeremy Corbyn will this evening take part in the regular Monday night

:37:18.:37:20.

meeting of the Parliamentary Labour Party.

:37:21.:37:22.

It's his first since being re-elected as leader last month.

:37:23.:37:24.

And with many MPs unhappy about last week's reshuffle, it

:37:25.:37:27.

The former Chancellor George Osborne is back in the spotlight tomorrow -

:37:28.:37:31.

he's appearing before the Business Committee to talk

:37:32.:37:33.

Lord Heseltine and Vince Cable will also be there.

:37:34.:37:38.

On Wednesday, Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn

:37:39.:37:40.

will take part in the first PMQs since the party conference season.

:37:41.:37:44.

On Thursday, the High Court will hear a challenge

:37:45.:37:50.

to the Government's plans to begin the process of leaving the EU

:37:51.:37:52.

Meanwhile, MPs like Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg are calling

:37:53.:37:56.

on the Government to give Parliament a say on issues like whether the UK

:37:57.:37:59.

And by Friday, we should hear the results of a European Parliament

:38:00.:38:05.

investigation into what happened in the so-called "altercation"

:38:06.:38:08.

We're joined now by Stephen Bush from the New Statesman

:38:09.:38:13.

Jeremy Corbyn addressing the PR people are the first time since

:38:14.:38:29.

being re-elected, I think. Is unity going to break out any time soon? It

:38:30.:38:35.

doesn't look likely. The reshuffle has not gone down well in some

:38:36.:38:38.

quarters so we are going to see a continuation of what he had the last

:38:39.:38:45.

year, disunity and infighting. What about Shadow Cabinet elections? Are

:38:46.:38:48.

they going to happen? Is there going to be a discussion about that, Lucy

:38:49.:38:54.

Fisher, and also the fact that both sides now, some of the people who

:38:55.:38:58.

quit before are back in the Shadow Cabinet? Is there a chance Jeremy

:38:59.:39:00.

Corbyn will be able to get on with policy? Well, Jeremy Corbyn's team

:39:01.:39:05.

are saying there will be a conversation further down the line

:39:06.:39:08.

about Shadow Cabinet elections but it's clear that that's not on the

:39:09.:39:11.

table for this particular reshuffle. I think it is difficult to see how

:39:12.:39:16.

there will be unity around policy-making, not least when there

:39:17.:39:20.

is a group of more moderate MPs talking about a shadow Shadow

:39:21.:39:23.

Cabinet. They are planning to meet and caucus on their own terms. In

:39:24.:39:28.

the meantime, some people, about ten or so MPs overnight, have returned

:39:29.:39:33.

to Jeremy Corbyn's front team but another knock to claims he is

:39:34.:39:38.

incompetent. He welcomed back a so-called rebel who never left! What

:39:39.:39:42.

about the leader of the MPs saying he wasn't consulted on the reshuffle

:39:43.:39:46.

and Rosie Winterton, he was seen very much as the glue in the Labour

:39:47.:39:50.

Party, the Parliamentary party, being sacked as Chief Whip? How has

:39:51.:39:55.

that gone down with her supporters? It has gone down pretty badly. Two

:39:56.:39:59.

of the whips have resigned, ostensibly to spend more time in

:40:00.:40:03.

their marginal seat with a young family, but it is a protest at what

:40:04.:40:07.

has happened in reality to it or bad is going to be a running sore. The

:40:08.:40:10.

problem with sacking the Chief Whip is that they keep acting like a

:40:11.:40:13.

Chief Whip but not for you on the backbenches and my instinct is that

:40:14.:40:19.

that will be the case in this case. What about a vote on the initial

:40:20.:40:22.

Brexit negotiating stance? Do you think it is likely to happen? I

:40:23.:40:27.

think it is certainly interesting to see that pro-EU MPs have finally got

:40:28.:40:32.

their Mojo back because it has been more to do with businesses, the CBI

:40:33.:40:37.

chief Carolyn Fairbairn saying today that businesses are concerned that

:40:38.:40:40.

Brexit means the UK is going to be seen as closed to business. It is

:40:41.:40:45.

interesting that people are now calling for the vote. A caucus is

:40:46.:40:48.

happening on Thursday about whether MPs should have a vote on triggering

:40:49.:40:53.

article 50. I think the bigger question is, Theresa May is setting

:40:54.:40:57.

out just how much parliament is going to be consulted over the

:40:58.:41:02.

terms, whether we are going to go for a soft Brexit, where we perhaps

:41:03.:41:05.

stay inside or have access to the single market, or else have a hard

:41:06.:41:12.

Brexit and leave the single market. Along those lines, the industrial

:41:13.:41:16.

strategy committee is going to be speaking to George Osborne, Michael

:41:17.:41:19.

Heseltine and Vince Cable. Sounds like a trio of Remainers who will be

:41:20.:41:23.

putting forward their views. How dangerous is this for Theresa May?

:41:24.:41:28.

Very dangerous. She has a majority of only 17, although the thing that

:41:29.:41:32.

was reported is that she's doing a great job of wooing the DUP so that

:41:33.:41:36.

is another eight votes. She is more stable than she was at the start of

:41:37.:41:39.

conference season but it could be tricky for her. Let's look at Priti

:41:40.:41:44.

Patel, the international developer and secretary. She's forced to

:41:45.:41:47.

confirm that she will stick to the spending commitment of 0.7% of GDP

:41:48.:41:52.

on international aid, after hinting that she might come in under budget

:41:53.:41:55.

deliberately to prove she was in wasting taxpayers' money. How long

:41:56.:42:00.

do you think that will last? We'll see. Last week, Stephen and I and

:42:01.:42:04.

many other journalists were in Birmingham for the Conservative

:42:05.:42:08.

conference, hobnobbing with lots of ministers. Several three different

:42:09.:42:11.

newspapers appeared saying that Priti Patel was going to underspend

:42:12.:42:16.

her budget, which is enshrined in law, this 0.7% of gross national

:42:17.:42:19.

income that she is mandated to on international aid. She rode back

:42:20.:42:24.

very harshly from those signals yesterday, setting out a statement

:42:25.:42:28.

that she is absolutely committed to that target. Number Ten wade in and

:42:29.:42:32.

said that that target is a manifesto commitment and will be in place

:42:33.:42:36.

until 2020 so it seems there is a lot less wiggle room than there was.

:42:37.:42:40.

We are also going to be seeing the results of the inquiry into the

:42:41.:42:45.

altercation between two MEPs in Ukip. What do you think is going to

:42:46.:42:51.

happen in the leadership contest? I think if Stephen Woolfe is

:42:52.:42:54.

exonerated, as it were, and isn't kicked out for bringing Ukip into

:42:55.:42:58.

disrepute, I think you start to the heavy favourite. He has the backing

:42:59.:43:02.

of the Nigel Farage tendency who have a lot of weight in Ukip. It is

:43:03.:43:08.

Stephen Woolfe or who knows? Thank you very much, both of you. Have a

:43:09.:43:10.

good week. Let's stick with Ukip,

:43:11.:43:15.

because their MEP Steven Woolfe has been discharged from hospital

:43:16.:43:17.

following the much publicised dust up with one of his

:43:18.:43:19.

colleagues last week. Mr Woolfe claims that his fellow MEP

:43:20.:43:21.

Mike Hookem "came at him" in a scuffle outside a meeting

:43:22.:43:24.

in the European Parliament Mr Hookem has denied

:43:25.:43:26.

punching Mr Woolfe and even posted a photograph of his

:43:27.:43:30.

hands on Twitter. Well, the party is holding

:43:31.:43:32.

an internal inquiry which should It all comes as the party

:43:33.:43:34.

is on the search for a new leader following the shock resignation

:43:35.:43:41.

of Diane James last week. I think she was in the post for

:43:42.:43:48.

about 18 days. Let's take a look at

:43:49.:43:52.

the runners and riders. Despite last week's incident

:43:53.:43:54.

Steven Woolfe, who's 49, He's been an MEP since

:43:55.:43:56.

2014 and is the party's He confirmed his candidacy before

:43:57.:44:00.

he ended up in hospital, William Hill put his

:44:01.:44:03.

odds at 8 to 11 to win. The next candidate is

:44:04.:44:10.

Raheem Kassam, 30 years old. He is the editor at Breitbart

:44:11.:44:12.

News and is a former He has also officially

:44:13.:44:15.

declared and his odds Next up is Bill Etheridge,

:44:16.:44:22.

who is 46 years of age. He's been an MEP since 2014

:44:23.:44:26.

and is also a Ukip councillor He confirmed his candidacy

:44:27.:44:29.

on the Sunday Politics yesterday, but at the moment, his odds

:44:30.:44:35.

are long, at 50 to 1. And finally, will Suzanne Evans

:44:36.:44:39.

throw her hat into the ring? She's the party's

:44:40.:44:42.

former Deputy Chairman She was suspended from

:44:43.:44:44.

the party but has now been readmitted and says

:44:45.:44:49.

she is "carefully considering" William Hill have her odds

:44:50.:44:51.

at 3 to 1. Joining me now to discuss

:44:52.:45:01.

this is Liz Jones - on the previous leadership election

:45:02.:45:03.

and she also sits on Ukip's We don't have your odds, it seems.

:45:04.:45:17.

Are you standing? I will decide by the end of this week. What will

:45:18.:45:22.

convince you? I want to see how the turbulence passes. I want to see how

:45:23.:45:26.

things fall in place. Do you just want to know whether Stephen Wolf

:45:27.:45:30.

will be allowed to stand in the leadership contest? If I have to

:45:31.:45:35.

play a significant role in that I will have to do it excuse myself

:45:36.:45:39.

from the leadership challenge, so it all depends what happens really with

:45:40.:45:45.

the report on Friday, how the investigations plan out, and what

:45:46.:45:48.

level of involvement we will have in that process. Who are you most is

:45:49.:45:55.

used about in the longest? I have not seen their policies yet. But you

:45:56.:46:01.

know them. I do know them, however things change. I do not know what

:46:02.:46:05.

the policies of Raheem Kassam or Suzanne Evans will be. Frankly I

:46:06.:46:09.

question whether all of those people would be able to stand in any event.

:46:10.:46:13.

Why? There are strict rules about standing as a leadership candidate.

:46:14.:46:19.

Number one you have to pay a ?5,000 deposit and if you do not recover

:46:20.:46:23.

more than 5% of the vote you will lose ?5,000. So that will preclude

:46:24.:46:28.

some standing? It may possibly, it is a financial risk. Format or is

:46:29.:46:32.

considering standing, what about him? I do not know if he is ending

:46:33.:46:38.

as yet. We have been in conversation with him. If he stands I should

:46:39.:46:41.

imagine he would probably be firm favourite. I spoke to Jonathan

:46:42.:46:46.

Arnott on Friday about the altercation between the two MEPs. He

:46:47.:46:51.

thinks neither should be... I don't think Mike Hookem will be but he

:46:52.:46:54.

thinks these should be allowed to stand. I say to that, until we know

:46:55.:46:59.

exactly what happened, we do not know if it was a physical

:47:00.:47:03.

altercation, it may have been a verbal altercation, we do not know,

:47:04.:47:07.

but we have witness statements, I cannot possibly comment. Of course

:47:08.:47:12.

if this were an employment situation, both would be suspended

:47:13.:47:16.

pending the resolution of an investigation. Is that what should

:47:17.:47:20.

happen? You are on the NEC. Do you agree the party has been brought

:47:21.:47:25.

into disrepute? The party has had a large amount of unfortunate

:47:26.:47:29.

publicity. I would not necessarily say it's been brought into disrepute

:47:30.:47:33.

because on the 7th of October last week in Hartlepool we won a local

:47:34.:47:39.

election seat, we got 49%. We are now the opposition I think in

:47:40.:47:44.

Hartlepool. It's having no impact on our membership and support base. It

:47:45.:47:48.

might be a bit too soon but do you instinctively think it has brought

:47:49.:47:52.

the party into disrepute, having two of your elected representatives,

:47:53.:47:57.

either, we don't know for sure, but certainly involved in some sort of

:47:58.:48:02.

confrontation? I would say it was a disappointment. I was very

:48:03.:48:05.

disappointed when Diane stood down and this behaviour is disappointing

:48:06.:48:08.

but I would not say it brings the party into disrepute. Let us not

:48:09.:48:14.

forget that there are six Labour MPs that had criminal convictions for

:48:15.:48:17.

expenses fraud. Four Labour life peers were involved in selling

:48:18.:48:23.

interference with legislation. I'm asking whether it has brought into

:48:24.:48:27.

disrepute, not how it compares to other parties, I do not deny other

:48:28.:48:31.

parties have had problems. I would say by comparison, no. This is a

:48:32.:48:37.

minor little tittle tattle incident. Your MEP in London has said that

:48:38.:48:43.

regardless of the cuff for confrontation, he says the fact that

:48:44.:48:49.

Stephen Woolfe was in talk with the Conservatives about defecting to

:48:50.:48:55.

their party, it is enough of a bar from him standing, do you agree?

:48:56.:48:59.

Until we have the facts we need to be 100% sure that it has happened

:49:00.:49:03.

and that it is not tittle tattle. Quite if proven that he had talks,

:49:04.:49:07.

and certainly was discussing the idea of defecting, he did say he

:49:08.:49:12.

considered it himself, would that be enough to bar him, or should it? It

:49:13.:49:16.

could be enough to suspend him so that he would be able to contest the

:49:17.:49:21.

leadership candidacy. It may not be enough to necessarily bar him from

:49:22.:49:24.

the party. We do not know until we have all the facts. From standing

:49:25.:49:30.

for leadership? If it can be proven 100% that it was the case and not

:49:31.:49:34.

just tittle tattle or idle rumour, potentially it could bar him from

:49:35.:49:40.

standing. He got his papers in 17 minutes late for the first

:49:41.:49:43.

leadership election, do you think that was a bit harsh by the NEC to

:49:44.:49:48.

say he could not stand? Not at all, because it shows that the rules

:49:49.:49:52.

apply to everyone, senior member or junior member, the rules apply to

:49:53.:49:57.

all. Who does Labour fear most in terms of the next leader of Ukip,

:49:58.:50:02.

bearing in mind the games they made in northern Labour heartlands? I

:50:03.:50:08.

don't think it is a matter of fear in who leads Ukip. I think we have

:50:09.:50:13.

to tackle Ukip at its source, and tackle the rhetoric that comes out

:50:14.:50:18.

of Ukip head office, and tackle their policies, and tackle them

:50:19.:50:23.

rather than who we fear as the leader. You don't particularly fear

:50:24.:50:28.

Stephen Woolfe. In the referendum and in the election in 2015, many

:50:29.:50:36.

Labour voters gave their vote to Ukip. Many voters have been

:50:37.:50:39.

dissatisfied with politics as a whole and some may have voted Ukip.

:50:40.:50:44.

We have to ensure that we win their vote bank, and that's the most

:50:45.:50:48.

important thing. And as I say, just tackling the underlying threat of

:50:49.:50:56.

parties such as Ukip. Do you now regret, in terms of the reasons for

:50:57.:50:59.

calling the referendum in the first place, as you know, the accusation

:51:00.:51:04.

was it was fears of Ukip, fears of the right of your party, now looking

:51:05.:51:09.

at the way Ukip is at the moment, two leadership contests, Diane Jane

:51:10.:51:15.

standing down, do you think you overreacted? I think it was right to

:51:16.:51:20.

hold the referendum, there was a clear demand in the country. During

:51:21.:51:24.

the 2015 election campaign people were saying they had not had their

:51:25.:51:29.

say 40 years, they wanted their say, but they did not believe a

:51:30.:51:31.

Conservative government would deliver on it. I think it was the

:51:32.:51:36.

right thing to do. I know you said you were a reluctant remainder,

:51:37.:51:40.

because you lost that vote? If the British people don't support your

:51:41.:51:43.

position you cannot say it was invalid to hold it in the first

:51:44.:51:47.

place. I did not say it was invalid, I said you lost your argument. Of

:51:48.:51:51.

course, I accept the will of the British people. Thank you.

:51:52.:51:54.

Should we let the British countryside grow wild?

:51:55.:51:56.

Should we bring back wild animals such as beavers and lynxes?

:51:57.:51:59.

There's a growing campaign for the "rewilding" of' rural areas,

:52:00.:52:01.

away from intensive farming and land management.

:52:02.:52:03.

Here's environmental campaigner George Monbiot, who first thought

:52:04.:52:05.

Some people find scenes like this beautiful.

:52:06.:52:32.

But what I perceive when I see places like this

:52:33.:52:38.

Hardly any birds, hardly any insects, hardly any flowers,

:52:39.:52:43.

But I believe that if we get the policy right, this could be

:52:44.:52:55.

You get a small hint of what could happen right

:52:56.:53:04.

What's taken place is that the sheep have been fenced out,

:53:05.:53:09.

and what we see as a result is that the trees are coming back,

:53:10.:53:12.

the flowers are coming back, the insects are coming back,

:53:13.:53:15.

When you consider the only reason the sheep are here

:53:16.:53:24.

is because we are paying for them through farm subsidies,

:53:25.:53:29.

you can see how easy it should be to change this system.

:53:30.:53:32.

Maybe we can start bringing back some of our missing

:53:33.:53:34.

species, the beavers, the boar, the lynx.

:53:35.:53:36.

Let's use the money to allow nature to come back,

:53:37.:53:44.

to allow people to have much richer places to explore,

:53:45.:53:47.

and to allow some wonderful oases to develop in our wet deserts.

:53:48.:53:54.

Where were you? Cambrian Mountains, right in the middle of Wales.

:53:55.:54:08.

Beautiful. Topographically, yes. Ecological EIB. Let's talk about

:54:09.:54:13.

that. You want to get rid of land management in the countryside? I'd

:54:14.:54:16.

certainly like to relax it significantly. I no means

:54:17.:54:21.

universally but in certain places where the productivity of the land

:54:22.:54:25.

is really, really low, as it is in most of the uplands, we are still

:54:26.:54:29.

continuing to graze them down to the nub in order to scrape a few lamb

:54:30.:54:34.

chops out of the land. I think the land could be much better used when

:54:35.:54:42.

it is rewilded, and we allow nature to come back and we stop floods

:54:43.:54:46.

downstream and all sorts of things. Who would benefit from rewilding?

:54:47.:54:53.

There's quite a lot of evidence to suggest it can be more lucrative

:54:54.:54:57.

than farming in terms of generating implement and income because

:54:58.:55:00.

associated with it is a lot of eco-tourism and a lot of potential

:55:01.:55:05.

for rebuilding economies where the traditional economic activity just

:55:06.:55:09.

aren't working any more. You want to get rid of subsidies, basically, to

:55:10.:55:12.

farmers, you do not think it is economic to productive? I do not

:55:13.:55:18.

want to get rid of the subsidies but I want to redeploy them

:55:19.:55:21.

significantly. At the moment we are spending ?3 billion per year, same

:55:22.:55:25.

as the NHS deficit, in basically keeping the land ruined in places

:55:26.:55:29.

where we are not producing any significant amount of food. Isn't it

:55:30.:55:32.

better to spend at least some of that money on ecological

:55:33.:55:36.

restoration. Why should there be subsidies for farming in this

:55:37.:55:40.

country, Oliver? I have hiked in that area of Wales and I think it is

:55:41.:55:44.

quite beautiful as it stands at the moment. Clearly sheep farmers play

:55:45.:55:48.

an important role in conserving the land. I'm not actually opposed to.

:55:49.:55:56.

George disagrees that it is conserving the land. I am not

:55:57.:56:01.

opposed to rewilding in principle, and as agricultural necessarily

:56:02.:56:03.

intensifies with a growing global population, we have to accept that

:56:04.:56:08.

land will become less bio diverse, and we should look at areas for

:56:09.:56:12.

rewilding. But it has to be done with the consent of the farmers. My

:56:13.:56:17.

question was about subsidies. Should farmers be given the level of

:56:18.:56:20.

subsidies they currently are? Yes, and I think the government has

:56:21.:56:24.

committed to it until 2020. We cannot pull away people's way of

:56:25.:56:28.

life without their consent. It may be that if over time you can work in

:56:29.:56:32.

partnership with the farmers there may be a way to use that subsidy in

:56:33.:56:36.

a way that encourages rewilding. It is being considered in Scotland. You

:56:37.:56:47.

were a rewildingremainer, and subsidies will reduce if we are

:56:48.:56:51.

known on the part of the EU, do you welcome that? It has opened up part

:56:52.:56:56.

of the countryside, although there are threats as well, we might rip up

:56:57.:57:00.

the birds directive and Habitat directive. But we can ask the

:57:01.:57:03.

questions about what we are doing in the countryside and why, and we have

:57:04.:57:06.

not done that being part of the European Union. You are the MP for

:57:07.:57:16.

Brent Central, not many links, there -- lynx. You haven't seen the beast

:57:17.:57:23.

of Brent, have you? You describe yourself as a champion for the

:57:24.:57:26.

environment, would you like to see rewilding? Not in Brent. But I think

:57:27.:57:31.

it's an interesting concept. I thought about it from the fact of

:57:32.:57:36.

the bees. And there's a little bit of rewilding going on in terms of

:57:37.:57:39.

trying to bring back the population of the bees and all of that. I think

:57:40.:57:44.

on a larger scale you really do have to work in conjunction with the

:57:45.:57:48.

farmers and their livelihood, I think that's the most important

:57:49.:57:51.

thing. I don't know how it would work in reality or if it is kind of

:57:52.:57:56.

just a dream. Have you got any parliamentary support for this? Yes,

:57:57.:57:59.

actually, quite surprisingly quite a lot. In fact there is now an enquiry

:58:00.:58:05.

by the environmental audit committee into the future of the countryside,

:58:06.:58:10.

including rewilding. It's in their terms of reference. And are they

:58:11.:58:13.

going to talk to you? I've sent them a written submission. You can come

:58:14.:58:17.

back and tell us if you do give evidence.

:58:18.:58:19.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:58:20.:58:22.

The question was, according to newspaper reports,

:58:23.:58:24.

who is the government hoping will be their secret weapon

:58:25.:58:26.

Shamefully I have no idea. It's the Duchess of Cambridge. Yes! Well

:58:27.:58:40.

done. The one o'clock news is starting

:58:41.:58:42.

over on BBC One now. I'll be here at noon tomorrow

:58:43.:58:47.

with all the big political stories

:58:48.:58:51.

Jo Coburn is joined by Labour MP Dawn Butler and Conservative MP Oliver Dowden to discuss the continuing row of whether companies should name their foreign employees. They also look at highlights of the previous night's presidential debate between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton with Jan Halper-Hayes of Republicans Overseas and Democrat-supporter Bonnie Greer.

Former Ukip leadership contender Liz Jones discusses who their next leader should be, and Stephen Bush from the New Statesman and Lucy Fisher from the Times take a look at the political week ahead.


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