11/10/2016 Daily Politics


11/10/2016

Jo Coburn is joined by Conservative MP Ken Clarke to discuss industrial strategy, Brexit and his recently published memoirs.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:37.:00:39.

Should UK war planes be deployed to Syria to enforce no-fly zones?

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MPs hold an emergency debate on the humanitarian

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After her whistle-stop tour review appeared in capitals, Theresa May

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continues a European charm offensive, meeting the Croatian

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Prime Minister in Downing Street. He's been Home Secretary,

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Justice Secretary and Conservative big beast Ken Clarke

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joins me to look back And could self-build houses

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help solve the housing We report from Holland,

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where cheap flat-pack This house was built in a factory.

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They built it, they put it on a big truck, set it up in one day. It took

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one day? It took one day. And with us for the whole

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of the programme today the former Conservative Chancellor,

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Home Secretary and Lord We never have time to list them all

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in one go! God no, don't go through my tedious CV, it is very long!

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In the next hour, MPs will discuss the situation in Syria

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after the former International Development Secretary Andrew

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Mitchell secured a debate in the House of Commons.

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Speaking to the BBC earlier, Mr Mitchell argued that a no-fly

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zone should now be enforced over Syria to protect civilians.

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And that British planes could be involved. No one wants to see a

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firefight with Russia, no one wants to shoot down a Russian plane, that

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the international community has on about responsibility to protect,

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which must be exerted. If that means confronting Russian ab power,

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defensively, on behalf of the innocents on the ground, we are

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trying to protect, we should do that. If it meant British planes

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being involved, so be it? I think Britain should explore with lights

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out force a no-fly zone. It is clearly not something we could do

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alone, but as part of the coalition of the willing to confront this

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awful catastrophe, we should do that if we are able to do so.

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Ken Clarke, how practical is that suggestion of a no-fly zone, that we

:03:03.:03:07.

the British would help in force? Obviously we cannot do it alone. The

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question is what we would do if, which is unlikely, I think, the

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American smooth to do that. We have been rejecting that for years

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because the risk of direct conflict with Russians is very considerable,

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there are lots of Russian Out to ground and ground to air missile

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systems which are very modern and effective. It would be a very high

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risk strategy. What is happening in Aleppo is one of the several major

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crises in the world, the British alone will not be able to do

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anything. He said it would not be Britain

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alone but he wanted Britain to take the central role because they that

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because he says they still have a strong diplomatic position, which we

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could argue about. Andrea Mitchell likens Russia to the Nazis in 1930s

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Spain in terms of breaking international law, they are

:04:01.:04:02.

destroying United Nations in its ability to act in the way that the

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Germans and Italians to strike the league of Nations in the 1930s. He

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is trying to make it so serious that there is a call to action, if you

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like? These historic comparisons... He is right to dramatise it. Here's

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a friend of mine, but the attitude to warfare in the Second World War

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was very different to now. Strongly support the idea that we now have a

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rule of international law. The Russians are breaking it? Certainly.

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They say they are sovereign and all that. They are binding on a lot

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about sovereignty. I think we should all abide by international law, we

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should put pressure on them. It has not worked. Angie says we should

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discuss with allies. -- Andrew says. With our allies, we have declined to

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do this for several years, one can only hope that worldwide pressure,

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the shock, horror at the scale of civilian losses just likely in

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Aleppo might get the Russians and the Syrians to modify what they are

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doing. What do you think Theresa May's instinct would be, and will

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be, over this situation? Andrew Mitchell says he has spoken to her,

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and like any person would be, it is sympathetic. But beyond that, what

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would her instincts be? I don't know. As a guess? I think her

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reaction to the humanitarian tragedy would be the same as any other

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civilised person. When you are Prime Minister you have a key role with

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the Foreign Secretary in deciding how far you will escalate this. The

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most important thing is what view she takes with President Obama if,

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which I doubt, President Obama starts contemplating doing this. Is

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there any point in having this debate? Well, I think it will give

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rise to almost universal agreement on all sides that this is an

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outrage. The shock and horror at the likely scale and more civilian

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casualties to the ones we have already had. The British are slow to

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come to terms with that diminishing role in the world and are viewed by

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the rest of the world, I may say so, particularly since the Brexit vote,

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as America's most faithful satellite. Russians, I have met

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Russians who have told me that if we want to know what British foreign

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policy is, we ring up Washington. So I hope the speeches this afternoon

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do not start imagining that any of this can happen without Washington

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agreeing to do this. Let's leave it there.

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The question for today is, "What is Theresa May

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reported to have banned from Cabinet meetings?"

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At the end of the show, Ken will give us the correct answer.

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The Government is adamant there will be no running

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But MPs on all sides of the House are arguing that Parliament

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should have a final say on the UK's negotiating terms.

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Number Ten says these MPs are trying to thwart

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Yesterday the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU defended

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the Government's right to proceed without Parliament's

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Let's take a look at some of the exchanges.

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The referendum was backed by 6-1 in this House

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and on all sides of the argument, Leave and Remain, we have a duty

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to respect and carry out the people's instructions.

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As I said, the mandate is clear and we'll reject any attempt to undo

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the referendum result, any attempt to hold up the process

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unduly or any attempt to keep Britain in the EU by the back door

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by those who didn't like the answer they were given on June 23rd.

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During the referendum campaign, much was made on the Leave

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side about parliamentary sovereignty.

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In his statement, the Secretary of State says, "We will return

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sovereignty to the institutions of this United Kingdom."

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Yet it seems the Government wants to draw up negotiating terms,

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negotiate and reach a deal without any parliamentary approval.

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That is not making Parliament sovereign.

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Can I point out to him that if he is to advise his opposite

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number, he might remind him that the repeal of the 72

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European Communities Act, will give many, many opportunities

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to amend and debate every single aspect of the discussions around

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And just in case they haven't noticed, they always have the device

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of Opposition Days when they can debate absolutely anything

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they choose, even the whole issue of the European Union.

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So may I urge him to get on with the process and don't listen

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to those who really want to bog it down and never let it happen.

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Three days before he was appointed, the Secretary of State published

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an article saying it was very important to publish

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Can he tell us when is he going to publish that white paper?

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And as someone who, for many years, railed about the importance

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of the powers of backbenchers and Parliament against

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the executive, can he give us, now, with a straight face,

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an answer to the question - where is the Government's mandate

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for its negotiations, either from this House

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I've been a great admirer of the Secretary of State

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for his staunch defence of civil liberties and his staunch defence

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I was a great admirer when he moved the bill on parliamentary control

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of the executive in 1999, where he stirringly told us that

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executive decisions by the Government should be

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subject to the scrutiny and approval of Parliament.

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So, could he tell us, on the basis of what constitutional

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principle, can he believe now that the Prime Minister can now

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arregate for herself, the exclusive right to interpret

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what Brexit means, impose it upon the country,

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rather than respect the rightful role of scrutiny

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My right honourable friend will be aware that sometimes it is very

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important to pay attention to the Liberal elite

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and he will be aware that on referendum night we were told,

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"I will forgive no-one who does not respect the sovereign

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voice of the British people once it has spoken,

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When the British people have spoken, you do what they command,

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either you believe in democracy or you do not."

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Those were the words of Lord Ashdown on Norton-sub-Hamdon in the district

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of Somerset, who is the most elitist Liberal I know.

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Can I, therefore, urge my right honourable friend to be true

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to the views of Lord Ashdown, to the principles of Liberalism

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and the traditions of this House and give affect to the

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17 million votes were cast on June 23rd for Britain to leave

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the European Union and attempts by anti-democratic and ill-liberal

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voices on the opposition benches, to thwart the British

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people's will, will rightly, be treated with disdain.

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We're joined now by the Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg, who campaigned

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Welcome to the programme. Ken Clarke, would you support the call

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from Labour and the Liberal Democrats for a vote on the

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Government's initial negotiating position? Yes, I will. The problem

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with the referendum was that nobody voted for anything, no two

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Brexiteers entirely agreed with each other on exactly what you would do

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in the event of them winning it. We are now deeply immersed, because it

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is the most urgent problem, in trade arrangements with Europe and a lot

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of other countries in the rest of the world which were the subject

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matter of the referendum -- which were not the subject matter of the

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referendum in the faintest detail. First shows the overriding

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constitutional situation. We have a Parliamentary democracy, Government

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is made better when made accountable of the details of what it does to a

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representative. Jacob Rees-Mogg, the opening remark, no two Brexiteers

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had the same vision. So there has to be a vote on that initial

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negotiating stance? I think this is wrong, it is fascinating but none of

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the pro-Remainers asked for a debate on David Cameron's negotiating terms

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before he did his wee negotiation. That was deemed to be a perfectly

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normal exercise by the Government of its powers. It is unknown to have

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this type of vote on what a Government may negotiate. Parliament

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scrutinises what has been done rather than authorised. It may be

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unknown, but is it wrong to have some sort of vote by Parliament,

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bearing in mind sovereignty was such a cornerstone of your whole

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campaign? Why deny parliament that sovereignty? Parliament is not

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denied any God at all. It is having a vote tomorrow on an opposition Day

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motion... That is not binding in any way. Legislation comes at the end of

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the process, not be beginning. The constitution is very

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straightforward, it has separation of powers between the executive, the

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legislature and the judiciary. The executive links the day-to-day

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decisions, they require legislative approval for which they had to go to

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Parliament, Parliament provides redress of grievances. As yet there

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is no grievance because there is no decision. Your concern and your call

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for a vote at this opening stage will just feel the argument that you

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just want to thwart the referendum result? That is a way of getting out

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of debating what we are going for. The Government does not know what it

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is going for, although at Conference they are effectively announced we

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are leaving the single market and the customs union, the very reverse

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of what was argued in the referendum, because everyone was in

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favour of free trade and remaining are trading links. The idea that you

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can interpret Parliamentary sovereignty in the constitution,

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which Jacob and I are both ardent supporters of, Parliament never

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discusses policy. Parliament cannot vote on policy. It can only wait to

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see whatever the Government wants to do and allow it to happen, only then

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can it a vote when the Government has committed the country to all

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these decisions. That is a startling diminution of the role of

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Parliament. Even in the face of a referendum. Just before I come back

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to you, Jacob Rees-Mogg, when you say that the vote to Leave did not

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automatically mean leaving the single market, what does it mean to

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leave the EU if it is not to leave the single market? Different voters

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had different views on both sides. A lot of it is interpreted as wanting

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fewer foreigners. But there were many intelligence and perfectly

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civilised people on the Leave side with different arguments. One thing

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all the Leave people agreed on was the virtue of free trade. For 40

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years I have been an party divided over Europe, the one thing we all

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agree on is how marvellous free traders. Liam Fox still makes the

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case. Now we are going protection is.

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That's the wrong. The sippingle market is not free trade much it is

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protectionism on a European scale of the outside the single market and

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customs union we can have genuine free trade and people voted to leave

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the European Union. The single market and customs union are the

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main stay of the European Union. If we remain in those, we have not left

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the European Union. Do you accept that? We ruled out staying in.

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The key thing, for the benefit of our children and grandchildren, if

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we possible can, stay in the single market and customs union and Jacob

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agrees with me. I think Jacob mees mog is saying the single mark set

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San intrinsic part of being in the EU. If you leave the EU, you do

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leave the single market. It is It is the biggest free trade area the in

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world. 500 million. It is a free trade area, you don't want to be

:17:08.:17:10.

part of it. It is a regulated ynchts all markets are regulated. It brings

:17:11.:17:14.

ne. U regulation, EU courts and EU law. If we remain until the single

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market, we remain until the European Union, we have to leave it and we

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also have, crucially, customs barriers against the rest of the

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world which in some cases are very high. It is not free trade if we

:17:26.:17:30.

remain in the single market. Do you accept it wasn't explicit in the

:17:31.:17:33.

vote leave campaign, that actually it was left vague enough that

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somehow there was a reluctance to state very clearly, at that point,

:17:37.:17:42.

that voting to Leave the EU, would automatically, in the minds of the

:17:43.:17:45.

vote Leave campaign, mean leaving the single market? I think that was

:17:46.:17:50.

obvious. It wasn't stated clearly. It might have been obvious to you.

:17:51.:17:54.

Within the campaign it was stated very clearly that once we left, we

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would need to negotiate a free trade agreement with the European Union.

:17:59.:18:01.

There would have been no need to do that if we remained in the single

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market and the vote was about leaving the European Union. Yet the

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single market is the heart, the beating heart of the European Union.

:18:09.:18:11.

If we were still part of, that our blood circulation would be caused by

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the European Union. Forgive me with the medical analogy. You do accept

:18:18.:18:21.

that leaving the EU meant not being part of the European part, European

:18:22.:18:25.

Commission, not being part of the key EU institutions, including the

:18:26.:18:29.

single market. No, no. Different breaks etteers argued different

:18:30.:18:33.

things during the referendum dch - Brexiteers. But the majority argued

:18:34.:18:37.

that leaving the European Union need have no effect on our economic

:18:38.:18:42.

relationships. People said - this is our biggest single market, the only

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set of countries with whom we have negotiated, completely free entry

:18:48.:18:50.

for most of our goods and quite a lot of our services, we previously

:18:51.:18:54.

were trying to get more. When we argue that it is very important to

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our future economics position, Brexiteers said - oh that's all

:19:01.:19:04.

right, they'll give us that because we are so important to them we'll

:19:05.:19:07.

carry on as before. First thing we are doing now, is withdrawing from

:19:08.:19:11.

it all. On that basis, if you say it was obvious to everybody who voted

:19:12.:19:15.

Leave that Britain would then leave the single market because, as you

:19:16.:19:18.

say, it is the beating heart of the EU, does that mean the Government

:19:19.:19:23.

has a mandate it take us out of anything that has EU fingerprints on

:19:24.:19:27.

it? We have a mandate to leave the European Union. Sure. The European

:19:28.:19:32.

aviation safety agency? We don't have to be part - we cannot remaybe

:19:33.:19:37.

part of any European body that is exclusively members of the European

:19:38.:19:41.

Union and has the European Court of Justice as its ultimate arbiter, but

:19:42.:19:45.

on the point of the single market, the EU is in the midst of

:19:46.:19:49.

negotiations with the United States and with Canada to increase access

:19:50.:19:57.

to its market by those countries. It hasn't been ratified the Canadians

:19:58.:20:01.

said and has taken a long time. But it would be bizarre for the European

:20:02.:20:06.

Union to put up trade barriers on a country, which on the day we leave,

:20:07.:20:09.

meets all its regulatory requirements. If they wish to do

:20:10.:20:12.

they'll harm their own economy. They may chose to do that but it would be

:20:13.:20:19.

an eccentric thing for them to do. What do you say about this, that

:20:20.:20:24.

there would be an almost of self-harm to punish Britain, if you

:20:25.:20:28.

like, by leaving the EU, and trying to associate some sort of trade deal

:20:29.:20:32.

which Boris Johnson said, we can have our cake and eat it which for

:20:33.:20:38.

many meant staying part of the single market. Is Jacob Rees-Mogg

:20:39.:20:43.

right, that they won't harm themselves or risking tariffs being

:20:44.:20:46.

put on goods that they would like to import from Britain in these

:20:47.:20:50.

negotiations? Well, there will be some harm to the continental

:20:51.:20:53.

economy, that is right. The things we are asking of them are things

:20:54.:20:58.

they can't possibly concede, that every other country they have any

:20:59.:21:02.

trade relationship with - and some of the weaker Member States,

:21:03.:21:05.

demanding exactly the same. Once you say - we are going to stop free

:21:06.:21:09.

movement of labour, your nationals are going to require work visas if

:21:10.:21:14.

they come in our bit of the single market, once we say we are not going

:21:15.:21:18.

to obey the rules of the market, we are going to make them all British

:21:19.:21:23.

first, but when we can think of one we want to repeal and at the moment

:21:24.:21:26.

the Brexiteers can't, we'll change or we will look for some that we

:21:27.:21:30.

want it change to make them British and we are not going to accept the

:21:31.:21:33.

European Court. Because the European Court. The reason the EU works is

:21:34.:21:38.

the European Court enforces the treaty obligations on 28 governments

:21:39.:21:43.

who wouldn't otherwise agree. The last big case we had there was a

:21:44.:21:49.

triumph because we were able to get into eurozone financial markets. I

:21:50.:21:53.

think Mr Clarke in that answer which shows which remaining in the single

:21:54.:21:56.

market remains leaving in the European Union. Hep doesn't want to

:21:57.:22:00.

leave the European Union, he regrets the vote and staying under the

:22:01.:22:04.

auspices of the European Court of Justice in anyway... Which case have

:22:05.:22:12.

we lost? It is a superior law So is the international court in The

:22:13.:22:15.

Hague. Are we pulling out of them all? No, it applies law that we

:22:16.:22:23.

apply via Parliament which ECJ law is our law amount and doesn't

:22:24.:22:29.

require approval. Give us some example of laws you have been

:22:30.:22:33.

unhappy about or you would appeal? Into well things that affect my

:22:34.:22:46.

farmers, the three crop ru. The ban on neonicotine ooids. The 40-working

:22:47.:22:53.

week when we had a opt-out under the social charter that. 'S the point of

:22:54.:22:59.

it. That the European Court has been a politicising court pushing

:23:00.:23:03.

ever-closer to the European Union. Are there key Ken Clarke decisions

:23:04.:23:07.

One we lost, I was around when it happened, we went there, contrary to

:23:08.:23:12.

our own legal advice, arguing that the working time corrective, the

:23:13.:23:15.

48-hour rule was not a health regulation. The reason Victorians

:23:16.:23:20.

prere stricted hours of work was for health. We lost that. Theresa made

:23:21.:23:25.

it quite clear, one thing we are not going to do is start tightening up

:23:26.:23:30.

on labour regulations, so we are not going take advantage of leaving so

:23:31.:23:33.

people are obliged to work more than 48 hours if they don't want to. A

:23:34.:23:38.

law you would appeal, the minute we have subsupered all that of European

:23:39.:23:41.

law into British law, and then you keep t which would you get rid of

:23:42.:23:46.

it. I would get rid of the three crop rule straightaway. There are

:23:47.:23:51.

hundreds of rules. You say that. Ban chemicals and pesticides, if you

:23:52.:23:56.

think about agriculture. I represent a rural constituency Is and Friends

:23:57.:24:00.

of the Earth there? It would give us freedom to set our own fishing

:24:01.:24:04.

quotas that would benefit our fishermen. We would be able to have

:24:05.:24:09.

light bulb that work so people can see in the dark. There are all sorts

:24:10.:24:14.

of useful issues. People would argue it is not intrinsic for life. We can

:24:15.:24:21.

have all these German car that is are poisoning us and people are

:24:22.:24:26.

trigger the figurers, we wouldn't have to have them. Well, there have

:24:27.:24:31.

been a dramatic fall in the value of sterling, we had already had aer if

:24:32.:24:36.

cast saying there would be a 4% hit to GDP in Brexit and a cathedral the

:24:37.:24:41.

aic drop in tax revenues and today on the front page of the Times

:24:42.:24:45.

leaked papers say that Brexit can cost ?66 billion a year R they all

:24:46.:24:52.

scare stories or are they the bumps in the road It is not a he can laked

:24:53.:24:57.

paper. It is a bad paper it put together, a dishonest Pape ter

:24:58.:25:00.

putted together during the Brexit campaign which said if we left the

:25:01.:25:03.

European Union and imposed tariffs on everybody who sells to us, we

:25:04.:25:07.

would have a bad economic time. It is a completely stupid paper and the

:25:08.:25:10.

Treasury is undermining the Government's own negotiating

:25:11.:25:13.

position and it is really serious that the Treasury is behaving like

:25:14.:25:19.

this Or Or is there any truth? It is an abuse of its position. It is a

:25:20.:25:25.

bogus report. I accept your point that there should be an inquiry.

:25:26.:25:30.

Just on sterling. Well on sterling and reports there could be 5 p a

:25:31.:25:34.

litre on petrol by the end of the week, are they the bumps in the

:25:35.:25:39.

road? Well the oil price has gone up, it always has an faevenlingt

:25:40.:25:43.

well, devaluation, the last two devaluations in this country, 1992,

:25:44.:25:47.

before you took over as Chancellor of the Exchequer, in 1931 when we

:25:48.:25:51.

went for gold standard, led to enormous increases in the prosperity

:25:52.:25:54.

of the country. This is nothing to do with Brexit? No, Brexit has

:25:55.:25:58.

brought forward the devaluation of the knot pound which was considered

:25:59.:26:06.

by the OMF and EOCD to be overvalued. What about that? Well,

:26:07.:26:12.

that is being too technical, the tariffs, that was all settled by the

:26:13.:26:15.

referendum, apparently. But what about devaluation? Since 2006 when

:26:16.:26:20.

we had the financial crash, we have devalued by 40%. We now have the

:26:21.:26:26.

worst current account deficit, usually most people call it the

:26:27.:26:30.

balance of payment, that we have had in our history. The eurosceptic

:26:31.:26:34.

argument that junking your own currency is somehow a marvellous

:26:35.:26:40.

advantage, which they have pedalled for years is, I fear, an illusion,

:26:41.:26:45.

an absolute illusion. The markets did collapse, I agree, given the

:26:46.:26:50.

state of affairs we have, it was probably slightly overvalue bud they

:26:51.:26:54.

collapsed because their judgment was the long-term outlook of the British

:26:55.:26:58.

economy was bad. I mean we are no longer the nift biggest economy in

:26:59.:27:01.

the world, we are the sixth now. Already. And we are going to go

:27:02.:27:07.

further if we are not careful. Briefly and finally, Jacob

:27:08.:27:09.

Rees-Mogg. If being poorer as a nation for a short period of time,

:27:10.:27:13.

you may not believe we are going to be poorer as a nation at all. But if

:27:14.:27:19.

it is the price to pay for what you see as controlling borders and a

:27:20.:27:22.

return of sovereignty, is that worth it? We will be richer we will be

:27:23.:27:25.

outside the dead-handed control of the European Union. We can set our

:27:26.:27:28.

own tariffs, have cheaper goods coming N It ridiculous report from

:27:29.:27:32.

some lobby group yesterday saying the price of goodwill go up. It'll

:27:33.:27:37.

go down. Why? We can reduce tariffs against the rest of the world, which

:27:38.:27:41.

in the EU we can't do. All the scaremongering put to one side and

:27:42.:27:45.

look beautifully, behind you, the picture of broad, sunny uplands.

:27:46.:27:46.

Thank you. Cast your mind back

:27:47.:27:50.

to the Labour party conference and the speech given

:27:51.:27:53.

by Labour's London Mayor, His message - Labour needs to win

:27:54.:27:54.

election to wield real power. Labour out of power will never,

:27:55.:27:59.

ever be good enough. We can only improve lives

:28:00.:28:04.

with Labour in power, by winning elections,

:28:05.:28:06.

by putting Labour values Real Labour values -

:28:07.:28:08.

equality, social justice It's only with Labour in power

:28:09.:28:14.

that we can create a fairer, And when Labour is not in power,

:28:15.:28:21.

we fail the very people Well, today, a left-of-centre think

:28:22.:28:28.

tank, the New Economics Foundation, has published its plan for pursuing

:28:29.:28:35.

policies outside of government, with ideas such as locally produced

:28:36.:28:39.

energy, childcare co-operatives All aimed at giving people more

:28:40.:28:42.

control over their lives. The NEF's Chief Executive,

:28:43.:28:48.

a former speechwriter Welcome to the programme S this

:28:49.:28:59.

added mission that the left are going to be out of power for a

:29:00.:29:03.

generation? No, it begins with the assumption, the truth that we are in

:29:04.:29:06.

a terrible state as a country, that the economy doesn't work for

:29:07.:29:09.

millions of people. That Leave voters, we know they felt they

:29:10.:29:12.

didn't have control and this is' why they voted to leave the European

:29:13.:29:16.

Union but we have polled Remain voters too and found the same

:29:17.:29:22.

output. 25%, just 25% of Remain voters say their voices count in

:29:23.:29:26.

politics. So we are in a mess. We need real change and we can't wait

:29:27.:29:29.

for any general election, whenever that might be. Do you agree with

:29:30.:29:33.

Sadiq Khan, the best way to affect change is to win an election? Where

:29:34.:29:38.

we find ourselves now, is there are new opportunities for change than

:29:39.:29:43.

there have ever been before. Sad evening Khan, as devolved mayor has

:29:44.:29:49.

an opportunity to do things in London which his predecessors

:29:50.:29:54.

couldn't have town down and that will be true in Manchester. There

:29:55.:29:57.

are innovative businesses starting all over the country. Trade unions,

:29:58.:30:02.

interested in create sowing enterprise communities. We live in a

:30:03.:30:06.

time when politics, and general elections matter but there are a

:30:07.:30:10.

different ways of doing things than we have in the past It sounds like

:30:11.:30:14.

you have given up on the mainstream process because it doesn't get

:30:15.:30:17.

things done that people actually want and isn't from your side of the

:30:18.:30:22.

spectrum, if you like. Is there some truth in that, you will be lobbying

:30:23.:30:26.

for power and effective change rather than running the show? Some

:30:27.:30:29.

of my best friends are politicians. You admit That they are important

:30:30.:30:32.

people but all politician, even Ken would acknowledge, we are in a

:30:33.:30:35.

situation where the public has moved away from thinking about mainstream,

:30:36.:30:39.

Westminster, Whitehall politics, as the primary solution to the

:30:40.:30:43.

challenges we face They are looking, people of all parties and none, are

:30:44.:30:48.

looking for new ways, fresh ways of getting things done now, rather than

:30:49.:30:51.

having to wait for a general election.

:30:52.:30:52.

Do you agree with that assessment? I don't. I agree with the analysis

:30:53.:31:03.

of the unsatisfactory state of public opinion whether political

:31:04.:31:06.

class is held with contempt, lots of young people switch off from

:31:07.:31:10.

politics altogether and a lot of old people feel let down by the

:31:11.:31:13.

consequences of automation and change under more complicated world

:31:14.:31:18.

and so on. But in the middle of it all, the real politics, for most

:31:19.:31:23.

mainstream people, concerns the better governance of the country. In

:31:24.:31:28.

the end, you require a government. Government policies affect these

:31:29.:31:33.

things, all our lives, therefore, in the end, holding political power and

:31:34.:31:40.

the ability to put what you believe are issues in the national interest

:31:41.:31:44.

in effect, that is what most politicians had to be about. I have

:31:45.:31:49.

not read this paper, to be fair, but the extracts sent to me rather nice,

:31:50.:31:55.

rather naive, probably, perhaps worth trying, one two, but local

:31:56.:32:00.

experiments that might be tried to see if they have an effect in one or

:32:01.:32:05.

two parts of the country is not governing Britain in a very

:32:06.:32:08.

difficult, dangerous and changing world. It reminded me a little bit

:32:09.:32:14.

of David Cameron's Big Society, locally produced energy, childcare

:32:15.:32:24.

cooperatives, taxi apps run by the drivers. This is small scale

:32:25.:32:29.

solutions run by local people? I just left an event that we are

:32:30.:32:34.

running at The New Economic Foundation, we heard from one career

:32:35.:32:37.

driver paid the London living wage whose every move is tracked by

:32:38.:32:41.

headquarter at head office, who feels as their life has got totally

:32:42.:32:45.

out of control, they can't earn enough to feed their families but

:32:46.:32:49.

their workplace experience is really dire. We have tabbed solutions to

:32:50.:32:55.

those problems. The Government has a big challenge ahead, we have talked

:32:56.:32:59.

about that throughout the programme, the Brexit debate will not go away,

:33:00.:33:03.

Parliamentary time will be sucked up thinking about our relationship with

:33:04.:33:07.

the European Union, but I can't stand there and look in the face of

:33:08.:33:11.

people living with the real troubles of our economy and say, well, we

:33:12.:33:15.

will not do anything because that sounds like Big Society or too

:33:16.:33:20.

small-scale. It is the job of people like as in the think tank world to

:33:21.:33:28.

think about solutions to put in place tomorrow which would change

:33:29.:33:30.

people's lives for the better. Is that a worthwhile cause if, as the

:33:31.:33:33.

accusation goes, the Government will be consumed by Brexit negotiations?

:33:34.:33:37.

There is a real danger that it will be, and we have important things to

:33:38.:33:43.

handle. Obviously I am a former Chancellor and all that, the key to

:33:44.:33:48.

these problems is proper management of the economy, recovering growth,

:33:49.:33:51.

lowering inflation and sustaining it. I quite agree that we have to

:33:52.:33:56.

address how to spread the benefits of our better. Capitalists,

:33:57.:34:00.

free-market enthusiasts, the too long have overlooked the fact that

:34:01.:34:07.

there is a whole section of the population, particularly in the

:34:08.:34:09.

change industrial North and North Midlands, left behind. Start with

:34:10.:34:13.

the good governance of the country, having the right Chancellor, not Mr

:34:14.:34:16.

McDonnell, then look at all these things that might spread the

:34:17.:34:20.

benefits better and make sure people don't fall through the gaps. Thank

:34:21.:34:30.

you very much becoming in, Mark. -- for coming in.

:34:31.:34:32.

My guest of the day - Ken Clarke - has enjoyed a political

:34:33.:34:35.

He served as Health Secretary, Education Secretary,

:34:36.:34:38.

Home Secretary and Chancellor of the Exchequer in

:34:39.:34:39.

He was then called back into frontline politics by David Cameron,

:34:40.:34:43.

joining the Cabinet as Justice Secretary in 2010.

:34:44.:34:45.

He's just published his memoirs, "Kind of Blue", and we'll talk

:34:46.:34:48.

a bit about Ken's life in politics in just a moment.

:34:49.:34:50.

# Seas would rise when I gave the word.

:34:51.:35:09.

MUSIC PLAYS: Viva La Vida by Coldplay.

:35:10.:35:31.

Apologies for presenting this first Budget rather like a lion tamer

:35:32.:35:36.

trying out his act for the first time, but I've decided

:35:37.:35:39.

to tackle the difficulties I face in a direct way.

:35:40.:35:50.

Go away, lie down in a dark room, keep taking the tablets

:35:51.:35:57.

and think very carefully whether the Liberal Democrats

:35:58.:36:01.

have a single opinion one way or the other on the merits of any

:36:02.:36:04.

We're searching for a leader who will be seen by the public

:36:05.:36:12.

Well, oh, boy, have you kept me waiting!

:36:13.:36:27.

Theresa's a bloody difficult woman, but you and I worked

:36:28.:36:29.

Ken Clarke, you were enjoying that? I haven't seen some of those clips

:36:30.:36:52.

for ages, did not know they existed. You have been in politics for a very

:36:53.:36:56.

long time, as we can see from Buzz archive clips. How has it changed in

:36:57.:37:01.

your view, and has changed for the better? In some ways are probably

:37:02.:37:05.

has. It was deferential and class divided when I started, there was a

:37:06.:37:09.

huge difference between the tweedy nights on the shires on the

:37:10.:37:18.

Conservative benches on the very working class guys on the Labour

:37:19.:37:20.

benches, it was tribal. Most families voted the same way all the

:37:21.:37:23.

time. Do you not think it is tribal? An awful lot of people under the age

:37:24.:37:27.

of 50 decide who they will vote for two or three days before polling

:37:28.:37:33.

day, which makes it so exciting but uncertain. In other ways it has

:37:34.:37:37.

diminished, because Parliament was more powerful when I started.

:37:38.:37:41.

Everything was rooted in Parliament. Although things were a bit too

:37:42.:37:47.

deferential, Government was properly accountable, very collective.

:37:48.:37:50.

Cabinet ministers had to agree things. The Parliament and the Prime

:37:51.:37:56.

Minister was a powerful first among equals. Sensible debate took place

:37:57.:38:01.

in the media, who were a bit too deferential but reported serious

:38:02.:38:05.

issues. Now it is all celebrity culture, public relations, can we

:38:06.:38:10.

get something about simply's sex life all money? If not, what

:38:11.:38:16.

exciting thing can we hang the news on two? Has that grabs your style,

:38:17.:38:22.

this practice of modern politics about message discipline, sticking

:38:23.:38:27.

to the line, media grids and so on? Have you find that difficult? I have

:38:28.:38:33.

totally ignored it! But has not escaped a goodness, thank -- that is

:38:34.:38:38.

not escaped our notice, thank goodness. David was very kind, I

:38:39.:38:42.

went football years without going along with this stuff. I think there

:38:43.:38:47.

was a Ken Clarke rule. I think it has damaged politics, the talking

:38:48.:38:50.

clock type of politics and the slogan eyes is not the main thing

:38:51.:38:54.

but is one of the things that has fed a low level of regard for

:38:55.:38:58.

politicians. Good god you say that David Cameron and his acolytes gave

:38:59.:39:02.

you free rein or just accepted that Ken Clarke was Ken Clarke, but you

:39:03.:39:06.

said you felt plotted against an deceived when he discovered in 2014,

:39:07.:39:11.

and I remember this happening, that Downing Street advisers were trying

:39:12.:39:15.

to stop you from appearing on Question Time. Why? Because they

:39:16.:39:21.

were not sure what I would say and I would not use the slogan. It was a

:39:22.:39:25.

silly, childish incident. The way they went about it, which I will

:39:26.:39:30.

discuss if you want me to come in time, it was lying to me and the

:39:31.:39:36.

producer and trying to slip in the more, in their opinion, conformist

:39:37.:39:42.

advocate. How did they explain it to you? Said the programme had made a

:39:43.:39:46.

mistake and book two conservatives, so unfortunately they were sticking

:39:47.:39:50.

with the other one, that they would have me on some time in future. The

:39:51.:39:55.

producer was called by the same people and told I was very ill, and

:39:56.:39:59.

this was not being made public because it was a personal health

:40:00.:40:04.

matter, I was not able to go, and they, very helpfully, could provide

:40:05.:40:07.

simply to take my place at very short notice. It never occurred to

:40:08.:40:11.

them but I would ring the producer and said, I thought we had fixed

:40:12.:40:17.

this ages ago, what went wrong? They miscalculated. You served three

:40:18.:40:21.

Conservative prime ministers, how did they compared? They were all

:40:22.:40:26.

quite remarkable people, completely and utterly different personalities.

:40:27.:40:33.

Ted and Margaret were two of the most one of personalities I have

:40:34.:40:35.

ever met, unlike each other, chalk and cheese. John Major was the

:40:36.:40:39.

ultimate nice guy being battered hopelessly. Cameron was the classic

:40:40.:40:46.

purveyor of the Blair style of Government. Very successful at

:40:47.:40:49.

first. He will not be given credit for it but Cameron and Osborne

:40:50.:40:54.

rescued the country from financial catastrophe. Thereafter, they got

:40:55.:41:00.

into... Back to the old politics, although Thatcher was a bloody

:41:01.:41:04.

difficult woman... You need to be careful with that phrase! And I had

:41:05.:41:10.

a very robust relationship with her, she was the best Prime Minister, I

:41:11.:41:14.

had to concede. The Thatcher Government was the one that

:41:15.:41:17.

transformed the country for the better. The Major Government

:41:18.:41:23.

consolidated and continued it in the same way, presented slightly more

:41:24.:41:27.

gently, but Thatcher was the remarkable one to work for.

:41:28.:41:30.

Do you think you changed yourself for the perception of how you were

:41:31.:41:35.

viewed by other politicians? Chewing the coalition, Nick Clegg voted --

:41:36.:41:40.

joked that he counted you as one of the Lib Dems, the Spectator called

:41:41.:41:49.

you yellow can. Did you acquire a more cuddly image? I said to Nick

:41:50.:41:53.

Clegg, you are a one nation Conservative. You only joined the

:41:54.:41:58.

Lib Dems because we were so fanatically anti-European at that

:41:59.:42:03.

time. Leaving that to one side, politics

:42:04.:42:09.

has moved. I am a believer in free market economic is with the social

:42:10.:42:16.

consequence -- conscience, I am an economic and social liberal. UR a

:42:17.:42:22.

diminishing breed on the Conservative benches? The Europeans

:42:23.:42:25.

remain in the majority on the Conservative benches, as in every

:42:26.:42:29.

other political party in the House of Commons, apart from the

:42:30.:42:32.

Democratic Unionists, but we are all slightly isolated. Being one of the

:42:33.:42:38.

stronger pro-Europeans who never agreed with the idea of a referendum

:42:39.:42:43.

anyway, with a constituency that voted to Remain, I am probably a bit

:42:44.:42:48.

on my own, but that happens to most bedroom politicians. And does not

:42:49.:42:52.

bother you? Not at all. We will have to do your addiction to standing for

:42:53.:42:54.

the leadership another time. Jeremy Corbyn took part

:42:55.:42:56.

in the regular Monday night meeting of the Parliamentary Labour Party

:42:57.:42:59.

last night - his first MPs had a chance to raise concerns

:43:00.:43:01.

ranging from the recent reshuffle The Labour Leader was also asked why

:43:02.:43:05.

he had attended an anti-racism rally over the weekend that was allegedly

:43:06.:43:10.

linked to the far-left group the Socialist Workers'

:43:11.:43:12.

Party, which critics say It was founded as the Socialist

:43:13.:43:30.

Review Group in 1950. It describes itself as a rational --

:43:31.:43:33.

revolutionary socialist group. They have been involved in various

:43:34.:43:37.

campaigns over the years, for example former leading members of

:43:38.:43:42.

the SWP helped to set up the Stop The War Coalition to campaign

:43:43.:43:48.

against the invasion of Iraq in 2003. In 2013, the SWP was mired in

:43:49.:43:55.

controversy because, it was claimed, they mishandled sexual assault

:43:56.:43:57.

allegations against an individual who was at the time one of their

:43:58.:43:59.

members. We invited the SWP onto the

:44:00.:44:07.

programme, but they declined. They also said that Standard To Racism is

:44:08.:44:12.

not a front organisation for the is to be be. So Steve Hart, the

:44:13.:44:18.

vice-chair of Standard To Racism joins us, along with a Labour

:44:19.:44:22.

supporting journalist, James Bloodworth. Steve, you helped to

:44:23.:44:26.

organise this event on Saturday, what was it about and were Socialist

:44:27.:44:32.

workers involved? First of all, I am Labour supporting, I am the chair of

:44:33.:44:36.

the biggest constituency Labour Party in the country. It was an

:44:37.:44:40.

event about confronting anti-Semitism, Islamophobia and

:44:41.:44:44.

racism. It was particularly focusing around issues of refugees and,

:44:45.:44:50.

indeed, the racist atmosphere that had begun to develop in some places

:44:51.:44:56.

after Brexit. It was 1400 people. And the Socialist Workers' Party's

:44:57.:45:02.

involvement is what? They were involved, as they have been in many

:45:03.:45:07.

things, fighting fascism over the years. Are they a dominant force in

:45:08.:45:13.

Standard To Racism? One of their leading figures is co-convenor? That

:45:14.:45:18.

is right. They are not a dominant force, they are participants in

:45:19.:45:23.

Stand Up To Racism, along with many, many others. Alf Dubs was one of the

:45:24.:45:28.

speakers on Saturday. And he has campaigned for child refugees to be

:45:29.:45:34.

taken in. He has been a participant all the way through. The Muslim

:45:35.:45:36.

Council of Britain has been involved. What was the problem? With

:45:37.:45:41.

Jeremy Corbyn attending this rally? I wroo call them a front group for

:45:42.:45:51.

far left groups. The socialist Workers' Party is not a very -

:45:52.:45:58.

Trotskyism isn't popular so they form front groups around issues

:45:59.:46:01.

which are more pop larks anti-racism, anti--er with a and use

:46:02.:46:05.

it to try to recruit members. In case of the socialist Workers'

:46:06.:46:08.

Party, it is an organisation which many of us believe isn't safe for

:46:09.:46:12.

women. There was a scandal around 2013. We objected to the leader of

:46:13.:46:18.

the Labour Party giving it kind of - making this organisation credible

:46:19.:46:24.

where you have someone like Weyman Bennett who is at the top of this

:46:25.:46:27.

organisation Do you accept that criticism. Associating yourself with

:46:28.:46:33.

this organisation and the Labour MP, Jeff Phillips certainly said there

:46:34.:46:36.

shouldn't be a connection in what will you are trying to do in Stand

:46:37.:46:42.

Up to Racism, and the Socialist Workers' Party because of the way

:46:43.:46:45.

they mishandled sexual assault allegations. Well, I think she is

:46:46.:46:50.

fantastic in what she does. Jess Phillips spoke at one of our rallies

:46:51.:46:55.

in April 2015. She obviously didn't, at that point, see that as an issue.

:46:56.:47:01.

The SWP, as you have said, had serious issues around this. But

:47:02.:47:06.

then, so did the BBC, so did the Catholic Church. I'm here today, I'm

:47:07.:47:11.

not boycotting the BBC. The police have investigated those allegations.

:47:12.:47:19.

The problem with the SDW, they persuaded women who were victims of

:47:20.:47:22.

sexual assault not to go to the police. And there are groups who

:47:23.:47:26.

persuade their members not to go to the rally. There is an extensive

:47:27.:47:32.

list of people, are they all wrong? I saw a call for boycotting last

:47:33.:47:39.

Tuesday. 1500 people from up and down the country, from groups

:47:40.:47:43.

supporting refugees in Calais, and other groups that had already signed

:47:44.:47:46.

up to this. They are people who want to come. We are well aware of the

:47:47.:47:51.

situation. - who are well aware of the situation. For me, what really

:47:52.:47:54.

matters is let's try and find what unites us. I think we should be

:47:55.:47:58.

doing more, Government made some moves yesterday but we really need

:47:59.:48:01.

to get the children fromical clay. Sure Tonight I'm going to a vigil in

:48:02.:48:06.

Tottenham because a woman had her hijab torn off her. A lot of people

:48:07.:48:13.

are coming together, Stand Up to To Racism is organising that. People

:48:14.:48:16.

uniting against racism is a good thing. That's my politics. The

:48:17.:48:21.

socialist Workers' Party are not serious on the issue of

:48:22.:48:23.

anti-Semitism. This is an organisation that believes in the

:48:24.:48:27.

objectlies of the state of Israel. For most people it is an

:48:28.:48:31.

anti-Semitic place it start N I don't think they should be involved

:48:32.:48:34.

in an anti-racist campaign. If you are not serious about anti-Semitism,

:48:35.:48:39.

you cannot be serious about anti-racism across the board I'm the

:48:40.:48:44.

vice chair and I'm extremely serious about anti-Semitism and I'm

:48:45.:48:50.

extremely - regard it as extremely important that our organisation will

:48:51.:48:56.

stand up to racism. How do you feel about the People in the Socialist

:48:57.:49:00.

Workers Party that don't? Every time they have spoken about t it is

:49:01.:49:03.

clear, anti-Semitism is a problem. They along with others, have been

:49:04.:49:08.

campaigning around Irishes of anti-Semitism, recently. Do you

:49:09.:49:11.

think you are diminishing the value of your protests n terms of

:49:12.:49:16.

anti-racism, in terms of campaigning on behalf of child refugees, by

:49:17.:49:21.

association with the Socialist Workers Party when you come up with

:49:22.:49:29.

criticism by people like James Bloodworth and Jess Phillips? Well

:49:30.:49:34.

my opinion and I'm not on the far left, I actually voted for Owen

:49:35.:49:36.

Smith. I want to bring people together. Where there are issues

:49:37.:49:40.

around racism, I want to bring everybody together. I would like to

:49:41.:49:53.

see Mrs Varsi, we had had Tim Farron taking place in our rallies. I have

:49:54.:49:57.

huge respect for the anti-racism campaign but I would say they are

:49:58.:50:03.

being used by the SWP by group to recruit to their party. Similar Stop

:50:04.:50:08.

the War. It is a supporter of the regime in North Korea. These are

:50:09.:50:12.

regimes that people of left or right should be wanting to distance

:50:13.:50:17.

themselves from. You don't want to see Jeremy Corbyn attending these?

:50:18.:50:22.

Absolutely not. It lends credibility to them of which there should be

:50:23.:50:27.

none. Could self-build homes be the answer

:50:28.:50:30.

to England's housing shortage? From later this month,

:50:31.:50:32.

councils in England will be obliged to sell plots of land to anyone

:50:33.:50:35.

wanting to build their own home, and supporters of the idea reckon it

:50:36.:50:38.

will help increase the supply Mark Lobel has been

:50:39.:50:41.

to the Netherlands to see how A great place for boats,

:50:42.:50:43.

tulips and museums. If you want to go house hunting

:50:44.:50:51.

here, what better way I've

:50:52.:50:53.

joined a delegation of British MPs, planners, and industry

:50:54.:51:00.

insiders in search of well, not a standard build

:51:01.:51:02.

but a self-build or custom-built house on a piece of land

:51:03.:51:08.

with all the utilities I feel like I'm on the set

:51:09.:51:10.

of Grand Designs. First stop is Europe's biggest

:51:11.:51:17.

experiment in affordable I'm just asking because there are no

:51:18.:51:20.

windows on the front of your house. People are thinking that

:51:21.:51:31.

I love my privacy and I do, but it has nothing to do

:51:32.:51:36.

with my neighbours. And when it's dark, you can't

:51:37.:51:38.

see anything outside. Can I join you on your building

:51:39.:51:45.

site? They build it, put it on a big truck

:51:46.:51:53.

and they set it up in one day. There is an equivalent city

:51:54.:52:05.

of custom-built houses Gravenhill in Oxfordshire

:52:06.:52:17.

will accommodate almost 2,000 homes. Visiting Holland, these Cherwell

:52:18.:52:22.

district councillors are on the board of Gravenhill

:52:23.:52:26.

Village Development Company, a commercial operation

:52:27.:52:28.

owned by the council. What Gravenhill provides

:52:29.:52:31.

is the land, the plot, a significant We are also looking at things

:52:32.:52:34.

like planning and This isn't a big grand design,

:52:35.:52:37.

you need to have cash in the bank. This is about how can

:52:38.:52:46.

you build your dream home at different levels of your life

:52:47.:52:49.

and spending different But at the moment the UK

:52:50.:52:51.

lags behind its European neighbours and America,

:52:52.:52:54.

with only one-tenth of its housing stock from self

:52:55.:52:56.

or custom-built houses. Government land is sold

:52:57.:52:58.

through an agency called the Homes and Communities Agency

:52:59.:53:05.

and their legal documents You need to sit down with mortgage

:53:06.:53:07.

providers and persuade them it's going to be worth their while to

:53:08.:53:15.

adjust their computer systems to providing staged payment

:53:16.:53:17.

mortgages for custom builds. A senior figure in the mortgage

:53:18.:53:21.

industry on the visit told me self-build mortgages require

:53:22.:53:24.

a 20% larger deposit than conventional builds,

:53:25.:53:27.

that available land Well, I wrote the Self Build and

:53:28.:53:28.

Custom House Building Act and got it That's now been strengthened

:53:29.:53:37.

by the Government in this year's So, there's a further obligation

:53:38.:53:40.

on local councils to actually provide serviced plots of land,

:53:41.:53:45.

enough planning permission with serviced plots of land to deal

:53:46.:53:53.

with the demand as evidenced The Ministry of Defence's head

:53:54.:53:56.

of accommodation policy was also investigating custom

:53:57.:54:02.

house-building here. The MoD wants more staff

:54:03.:54:03.

on the housing ladder and is considering self-build

:54:04.:54:05.

for service personnel. The ministry of the defence has more

:54:06.:54:07.

than 2% of the land in the UK. They need quite a lot

:54:08.:54:12.

of that for training. They don't need all of it

:54:13.:54:14.

and they are looking at selling it I'm saying they should be a bit more

:54:15.:54:17.

imaginative about how they do that So maybe one day more land could be

:54:18.:54:22.

available for custom housing and members of the Armed Forces

:54:23.:54:26.

could be able to design We've been joined in the studio

:54:27.:54:29.

by Michael Holmes, chair of the National Custom

:54:30.:54:34.

Self Build Association. Welcome to the programme. Do you

:54:35.:54:41.

really think they could actually help solve the housing shortage?

:54:42.:54:43.

This could be a significant part of house building. You have seen the

:54:44.:54:49.

figures where it is provided elsewhere in Europe, America, Japan,

:54:50.:54:52.

Australia, New Zealand. Developed economies have a major owner

:54:53.:54:54.

commissioned sector in which the people who live in the houses get

:54:55.:54:58.

involved in the design and construction. It is in their

:54:59.:55:01.

interests to do so. But the problem is still available land. The problem

:55:02.:55:04.

we face here and the planning law that is go along with T how do you

:55:05.:55:09.

go over that? Right-to-build edge legislation which commences on

:55:10.:55:12.

October 31st will be a game change. Land at the moment comes to market

:55:13.:55:19.

as major strategic building sites that only the major house builders

:55:20.:55:23.

can access and land for the smaller sector is more or less dried up. It

:55:24.:55:27.

is an issue with the planning system. Right-to-build legislation

:55:28.:55:31.

places a duty on local authorities to build forward sites that are

:55:32.:55:35.

broken up to access plots. They'll become available for individuals who

:55:36.:55:40.

would like to buy and commission and build their own homes, it could be

:55:41.:55:46.

DIY. But most likely an SME. DIY that could take me ten years. Isn't

:55:47.:55:51.

it for people who have some money, rather than affordable Currently,

:55:52.:55:55.

you need a substantial deposit to be able it self-build. Only large plots

:55:56.:55:59.

come to market. 20% higher we heard in the film. However that may not be

:56:00.:56:06.

the case. Elsewhere in Europe they have a scheme called, I Builds

:56:07.:56:09.

Affordal where the local authority owns or you lease the land for them.

:56:10.:56:15.

You only have the cost of the build. Land is 60 to # 0%. If you take that

:56:16.:56:21.

component out and lease it on a fair rent you only have the cost of

:56:22.:56:25.

building t makes it much more affordable. What about the look. One

:56:26.:56:27.

of the biggest complaints from neighbours when their neighbours are

:56:28.:56:30.

building a house s what it'll look like. Yes, dove he sign codes, if

:56:31.:56:33.

you are Conservative and you would like to make sure your neighbour

:56:34.:56:39.

looks similar to yours, you choose a plot with a restricted design code

:56:40.:56:42.

which tells you, within this glass box, the space you can fill. If you

:56:43.:56:47.

are more avanlt guard you can chose an area where there is more freedom.

:56:48.:56:51.

Do you think this'll go down well in your constituency? Interesting. I

:56:52.:56:56.

think would be great rows about the ate peerns of them in my

:56:57.:57:00.

constituency is the honest assessment. I'm not sure my

:57:01.:57:04.

constituency is the kind of place that Michael is aiming at anyway. It

:57:05.:57:10.

can be apartments. My DIY is limited to changing a light bulb. I find it

:57:11.:57:15.

interesting. Nothing puts me off. I think it can make a contribution. I

:57:16.:57:19.

think the bigger problems in housing should keep trying it tackle, go

:57:20.:57:23.

beyond this, we have big problems of speeding up the planning system

:57:24.:57:26.

which is slowly happening and then the delays between planning consent

:57:27.:57:30.

and building and housing finance and the fact it is all dominated by big

:57:31.:57:34.

developers, who have no incentive whatever to get on with building and

:57:35.:57:38.

there aren't enough small plots. Other countries don't have to do t

:57:39.:57:43.

this DIY, many other countries a lot of homes are one-off which the

:57:44.:57:46.

owners have commissioned themselves from a small builder Precisely. And

:57:47.:57:52.

they have, you know, proper housing - a house that takes longer to

:57:53.:57:55.

build. That's custom build and that's what we think should be

:57:56.:57:59.

happening. It is owner commissioned housing, not DIY. A small proportion

:58:00.:58:04.

to the market, 10%, the big growth proposition is small SME builders

:58:05.:58:09.

and packaged companies that can build off plans and kit, helping

:58:10.:58:12.

people to have their own individual design quickly, it is a whole area

:58:13.:58:15.

of housing that appeals to the market that don't want to buy the

:58:16.:58:19.

new builds of major house builders. Can you built one? I have built my

:58:20.:58:25.

own home. The DIY proportion was small. I left it to the

:58:26.:58:28.

professionals. Most people do. Time to find out the answer to our quiz.

:58:29.:58:33.

The question was, "What is Theresa May reported to have banned

:58:34.:58:36.

So, Ken, what is the correct answer?

:58:37.:58:42.

It's Apple watches. Do you have one? No, I have a mobile

:58:43.:58:48.

phone. It is switched off. If anybody wanted to intercept our

:58:49.:58:51.

conversation for the last hour, they should do. So you shouldn't take

:58:52.:58:57.

this into account. I'm in the banning anything from our studio

:58:58.:59:02.

today. That's it. Thank you to Ken Clarke for

:59:03.:59:03.

Jo Coburn is joined by Conservative MP Ken Clarke to discuss industrial strategy, Brexit and his recently published memoirs. Plus interviews with Marc Stears from the New Economics Foundation and Steve Hart, vice chair of Stand Up to Racism.


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