17/10/2016 Daily Politics


17/10/2016

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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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With the Calais Jungle camp due to be shut down within days,

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more unaccompanied child migrants arrive in Britain,

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but are we taking too long and taking in too few children?

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They're said to be overwhelmingly in favour of Remain

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but how far will the unelected Lords dare to go

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in being seen to frustrate the progress of Brexit?

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We'll ask the new man in charge of the Upper House.

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Has the feminist movement empowered women

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And can a good logo get you elected, or help you lose?

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And with us for the whole of the programme today

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is former Labour Leadership contender Angela Eagle

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and the former Culture Secretary Maria Miller,

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who now chairs the Commons' Women and Equalities Committee.

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First this morning, the Independent Inquiry

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into Child Sexual Abuse is now on its fourth inquiry chair,

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as well as suffering several resignations from its legal team.

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But it is the inquiry's third chair, Dame Lowell Goddard,

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that's attracting most interest at the moment

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with the Home Affairs Select Committee

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about to hold a hearing on the circumstances

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surrounding her appointment and dismissal.

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But are they poised to call Theresa May,

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who was Home Secretary at the time, to give evidence?

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Let's talk to our assistant political editor, Norman Smith.

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Can you just remind us about the circumstances of her departure? She

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left early August, the Home Secretary Amber red saying she left

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because of the distant she had to travel back to New Zealand. She was

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feeling lonely. Suggesting a personal reasons that led to her

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resignation. We now know very serious allegations have been made

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about the way she managed the inquiry and whether she lost the

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confidence of leading members of the inquiry team and also allegations

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about her attitude, particularly claims she had made racist remarks.

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What the MPs want to try to understand is, if those kind of

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allegations were being made, where any of them relayed to ministers and

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in particular to the Home Secretary at the time, Theresa May? Speaking

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to MPs on the committee, they take a view it is inconceivable that the

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Home Office at least was not aware of the deep concerns within the

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inquiry because members of the Home Office had been succumbed to the

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inquiry and they say it is not credible that sort of information

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would not have been known about. When you talk to Downing Street this

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morning, they said the first alarm bells were not sounded until 29th of

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July. That was a week or so before Justice Gothard resigned. In other

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words, Theresa May was not alerted. That is not the only aspect of this

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which concerns MPs regarding the Prime Minister. There is also an

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appetite to understand why the inquiry was set up as it was with

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this huge remix to investigate pretty much the world and his wife,

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allegations of abuse at Westminster, local government, the military, the

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police, it you name it. A lot roads come back to Theresa May. Is there

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now a suggestion that it will be scaled back, the scope of this

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enquiry? That is highly likely. There is a view it is out of control

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in terms of the extent of lines of enquiry it now has two pursue. There

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are? About how you pull all of that together in a reasonable time frame.

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I suspect you will hear from Alexis Jay later saying she is going to

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pair the inquiry back. It does raise questions about why it was setup in

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this way in the first place and in the hall management of this enquiry.

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It was originally set up by Theresa May as a panel. It had its remit

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extended to become a full-blown enquiry. There are fundamental

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questions about the Prime Minister's handling this enquiry. She is likely

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to be called, is she? Or will she accept? I would say it is doubtful

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she will accept that Amber Rudd has responsibility for the department. I

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am struggling but I cannot remember a Prime Minister coming before the

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departmental select committee. They appear before the Liaison Committee

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bike cannot remember one appearing before a departmental committee and

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I imagine they would not want to go down that road. Presumably that

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might be the time they can compose some of these questions.

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Should she appeared before the committee bearing in mind she was

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Home Secretary when these serious questions and allegations began to

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surface? It is right that the select committee should do its job and

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scrutinise civil servants and ministers. It is Amber Rudd who is

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in position now and the Liaison Committee has ample opportunity to

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press the Prime Minister on this if we choose to so do at a later date.

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I think they should not let this overshadow the important work the

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inquiry is doing for victims and my worry is this is somewhat

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sidetracking people from that important work and the work of

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Alexis Jay. I'm glad she will be talking later to get the focus of

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people back on that. You say you are worried about it sidetracking what

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has already been a difficult enquiry to get going due to resignations. We

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have heard, or it has been reported, the permanent Secretary to the Home

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Office implied they already knew about allegations about her conduct

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went to reason may was Home Secretary. Surely the onus is on her

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to respond. It was an Independent enquiry. There were civil servants

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from the Home Office are conjured there and there was a close link. I

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think I will be listening very closely to what the civil servants

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have to say, when they knew it will stop it is important not to lose

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sight of the inquiry. Should it be scaled back? It is clearly in

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trouble, onto its fourth head. The trouble is about the judge from New

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Zealand and I hope she agrees to give evidence about what actually

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happened. I think we are in danger of losing the point of setting it up

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in the first place, which was to try to deal with some of the cover-ups

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that have been going on about child sexual abuse and many lives being

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ruined. It has clearly got completely out of control. It is too

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wide-ranging in its rebate for any person to be able to do it. It goes

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back 40-50 years. It is a difficult ask for anyone. The Chan in the

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inquiry of chairs has demonstrated that. You do think it should be more

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targeted? They need to see how they can begin to attack the remade. They

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are making no progress and time is going on. No one is satisfied. All

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good reasons, Theresa May wanted to have something done about this. I

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think it has spiralled out of all control and is not fit for purpose.

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They need to take another look at it but they must also look at the

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expenditure of public money. The judge had half ?1 million in

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recompense. They will look at that in the select committee, when pay?

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Do you think it has been well handled? It has not made the

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progress we would have hoped. Whose fault is that? Whether it is to do

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with the terms of the inquiry or the people, ultimately victims will be

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saying it has not made the progress it should have had. I hope Alexis

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Jay will say it has made a clear way forward. It is not right to say it

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has made no progress. Darting to identify the sorts of inquiries and

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13 inquiries that should be undertaken. The scale of what is

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being done is very ambitious. I have been listening carefully to what

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Alexis Jay has to say. If it will be restricted in some way, in what way

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would you like to see it more limited? I would like to see victims

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having clear answers about how these sorts of abuse allegations were

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dealt with in the past. Whether the inquiry needs to have the breadth of

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scope across the public and private sector. I will be listening

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carefully to that later on today if Alexis Jay makes a statement. By

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focusing the inquiry in a less ambitious way across all of those

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sectors, we might be able to get results sooner. Are you confident

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Alexis Jay can do the job any better than her predecessors? I hope so. We

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can but hope. Otherwise we will get into a round of ongoing problems. A

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lot of the victims would say that what they want is to create a

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circumstance where people cannot be subjected to the kind of horrors

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they were subjected to in the past again in the future. It is also

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importantly tried to learn lessons about how child abuse is dealt with,

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how the authorities deal with it, and how we can best protect victims.

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That is the key point for everyone concerned. Do you think learning the

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lessons, the historical lessons, because there is a history of being

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examined about child abuse, the thing that can still help today?

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Absolutely. We will be letting victims stand we did not make sure

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recommendations coming out of the inquiry do absolutely get embedded

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in all of that. Let's leave it there.

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Now, the Calais Jungle, the make-shift migrant camp

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is due to be cleared in the next week or so.

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Amongst the estimated 10,000 people in the camps

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are thought to be between 600 and 900 unaccompanied refugees.

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The British Government has agreed to take some of those

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but are they acting too slowly and taking too few children?

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are due to arrive in the UK today from Calais.

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They include Afghans, Syrians and stateless Bidun children

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They are the first group of minors to be brought over

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by the Home Office under a fast-track registration scheme.

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The Dublin Regulation allows children to seek UK asylum

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because they have close relatives living here.

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The UK has also made a wider commitment to taking

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in unaccompanied children caught up in the migrant crisis.

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The Lord Dubs Amendment to the Immigration Act which passed

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requires the Government to "arrange transport and support"

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for unaccompanied refugee children - whether family in UK or not -

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requires the Government to arrange transport and support

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for unaccompanied refugee children from Europe,

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regardless of whether they have family here.

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And Home Secretary Amber Rudd said last week that it would be

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"a good result" if the UK ended up taking 300 unaccompanied

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But the Former Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams has

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warned of "foot dragging" over accepting children from the Calais

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Mr Williams said "the clock is ticking" because the camp

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is expected to be demolished next week and the UK had a "moral

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Maria Miller, why is it taking so long to get unaccompanied child

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refugees with relatives in this country to come to the UK? It has

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been a bureaucratic system and been very problematic in getting speedy

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resolutions. More than 5000 Syrian refugees have come to this country

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since 2012. The systems are in place. Again I do not think we

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should forget the Government policy of supporting refugees on the Syrian

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border is on the campus is something which we have done and proudly done.

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That is, as you say, a two pronged attack. Let's focus on the

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unaccompanied children and the commitments that have been made.

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Have there been tracking of feet? -- has there been? The numbers have

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been so huge that invariably the bureaucratic system has got in the

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way. More than 100 children have already come over. The Home

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Secretary has said she wants to see many more come over. Local

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authorities are there, willing and ready to help these children, many

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of whom have significant needs. What numbers are you talking about? The

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Home Secretary has talked about 300 children coming over. I think that

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is Britain playing its part, which is what we want to do, without

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acting as a magnet for people traffickers who have used and abused

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young people, dragging them to Calais. We can see some of the

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pictures of children. There have been reports suggesting that not all

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of the people who say they are children actually are and they are

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trying to get some sort of refuge here. The Government has said, and

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Amber Rudd has said it will be a good result if the UK manages to

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take 300. Local councils had to deal with child refugees when they come

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over here and not all of them said they can afford it. By definition,

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the Government has agreed the dubs amendment. You want to ensure that

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children who have gone through a very traumatic time when they are

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reunited with relatives are properly looked after. I think it is for the

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Government to ensure there is adequate resources available for

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local authorities, many of whom have had huge cuts in their budgets, to

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be able to ensure those children are properly integrated. Of course, the

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longer they have been in those terrible conditions, the more needy

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they are likely to be when they come over here. If the Government

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accepted the Dubs Amendment, I think it should have been faster and more

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effective in taking those children. If the Calais camp closes within a

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week, we have had months and months since this amendment has passed and

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hundreds of children have come over. Even on the figure of 300, less than

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a week to integrate and find the other 200. There have to be a lot

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more work done and more quickly to get these children over safely. I

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agree you voted against the original amendment stating the UK should take

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in 3000 unaccompanied child refugees.

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My position right from the start has been that we should be supporting

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people in the camps nearer to Syria, any countries are not doing that.

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Britain is, we have stepped up to our obligations. Individuals,

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particularly young people in the camps near Syria are often the most

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disabled, the most challenged, they cannot pay people traffickers to

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take them on board. Britain has the right strategy in that respect. We

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remember where the amendment came from, it was because it was on the

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Kindertransport, during the period of the Nazis, when ordinary

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community groups, not the government, brought Jordan over. And

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we know from that period that many of the children who came over have

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made an enormous contribution to British life afterwards, so I think

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that we should get on and get this sorted and not leave those children

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in the danger they are in now. Do you think there is a moral

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obligation, as Ryan Williams has said, to take the children, I take

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your point, it should be in the camps, the focus, but the Dubs

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Amendment was eventually passed. -- Rowan Williams. Absolutely there is

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a moral obligation, that is what Parliament has acted in this way,

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with a very specific objective in our sights. You didn't want to take

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all of them. It comes down to the fact that we need to be so careful

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that the policies we took in place do not encourage people trafficking

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in the ways... People trafficking is going on now, large numbers of

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people are paying huge amounts of money to cross the Mediterranean in

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boat, many people are being exploited, we need to use the forces

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of law and order to help to deal with some of those trafficking

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routes. It is not a reason not to help people who are in dire need.

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You admit that there is a bureaucratic process to go through,

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claims of having relatives in this country have got to be investigated

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otherwise everyone would say, no matter their tragic circumstances.

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Of course but it could have been done faster. Has Jeremy Corbyn

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offered strong enough position on the refugees, should he have been

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pushing harder? It has pushed pretty hard, he has made it clear that we

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should be doing more, and the opposition have voted to support the

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Dubs Amendment, I think it is clear that there is a humanist airing

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crisis going on across Europe and we must play our part, as one of the

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European nations and one of the leading nations in the United

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Nations, to do the right thing. I have to say, I think Maria Miller is

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right, about the fantastic support that this government has been giving

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on the borders, of Syria, but that does not mean that we cannot do

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something to help people in dire need in Europe now, and we should be

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playing our part. We are playing our part. We make sure those children

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come to the UK. As well as the bureaucracy, Winnie to make sure

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those children, when they arrive, have this right support in place,

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many have significant needs. -- we need to make sure. Dozens of

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children have gone missing while waiting for their claims to be

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processed, according to aid agencies, what do you say to that?

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That is an appalling situation for us to be facing. Whether that is the

:18:55.:18:59.

French government or the British government or indeed the whole of

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the new, it needs to be looked into very carefully. Finally, Francois

:19:03.:19:08.

Hollande has promised to set up reception and orientation centres,

:19:09.:19:10.

the camps will be cleared, and that will deal with and process asylum

:19:11.:19:15.

seekers, do you really think that is going to be the end of watching

:19:16.:19:18.

hordes of migrants and refugees trying to get onto lorries to come

:19:19.:19:22.

to Britain? The whole of Europe has to deal with the dispersal of those

:19:23.:19:32.

refugees arriving in great numbers. How should it be done? It should be

:19:33.:19:35.

done with co-operation with some of the international agreement that are

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being made, and it should be done more effectively. But we know that

:19:39.:19:39.

this is controversial within countries, as we see from the rise

:19:40.:19:42.

of the populace. Are you optimistic that the plan of Francois Hollande

:19:43.:19:44.

for the new reception centres is going to work? We have got to wish

:19:45.:19:49.

it the best and we have got to hope it works because the alternative is

:19:50.:19:55.

people really living in fields, like they are at the moment, in Calais,

:19:56.:19:58.

risking their lives to get on lorries. That is not what we want to

:19:59.:20:00.

see in the centre of Europe. Now, remember it wasn't

:20:01.:20:05.

about his leadership and he wouldn't resign if he lost,

:20:06.:20:06.

but in the end David Cameron resigned as Prime Minister and then

:20:07.:20:10.

as an MP in the wake The by-election prompted

:20:11.:20:13.

by his departure is on Thursday and our Ellie's been to his former

:20:14.:20:16.

constituency of Witney to test The Oxfordshire

:20:17.:20:18.

constituency of Witney. A place known for

:20:19.:20:21.

blankets, airbases, and, until recently,

:20:22.:20:23.

the Prime Minister. because he didn't want to be

:20:24.:20:29.

a distraction to Theresa May. Some of his former constituents

:20:30.:20:41.

are slightly annoyed by the distraction

:20:42.:20:43.

of a by-election. What were your thoughts

:20:44.:20:45.

on David Cameron standing down? I thought he had said several times

:20:46.:20:47.

he wouldn't do that. I did understand the reason

:20:48.:20:50.

he did stand down. I don't think he had

:20:51.:20:53.

the choice, to be honest. It's a shame because he's

:20:54.:20:56.

been doing a good job. What are your thoughts

:20:57.:20:59.

on David Cameron standing down? Don't get me on that

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subject, David Cameron. When David Cameron was re-elected

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here in the general election last year,

:21:04.:21:05.

he increased his majority There is no doubt it

:21:06.:21:07.

will be an uphill struggle for the other parties

:21:08.:21:10.

hoping to overcome that. There are 14 candidates

:21:11.:21:12.

in total hoping to they're in a similar

:21:13.:21:14.

position, or worse? Councillor Duncan Enright is the

:21:15.:21:22.

Labour candidate. He stood against David Cameron

:21:23.:21:25.

in the general election. With David Cameron's personal

:21:26.:21:28.

vote out of the way, I think there's a real chance

:21:29.:21:30.

for something to happen here. I'm the most famous candidate

:21:31.:21:32.

on the ballot paper in Witney. I may not be famous

:21:33.:21:36.

across the country How are the Liberal Democrats doing

:21:37.:21:40.

at the moment? Liz Leffman, is standing

:21:41.:21:48.

for the Lib Dems. Quite a number of people in this

:21:49.:21:51.

constituency, 57%, particularly people who

:21:52.:21:53.

voted Conservative in the past, are really upset that they've got

:21:54.:21:59.

somebody, the Conservative candidate,

:22:00.:22:02.

who voted to leave. Always nice to have a professional

:22:03.:22:04.

wardrobe dresser. Dickie Bird, who served

:22:05.:22:06.

in the British Army for 20 With possibly a cooling down

:22:07.:22:09.

on Brexit from the Government, there's a possibility of 30,000

:22:10.:22:13.

votes there that can reinforce and keep the Prime Minister's toes

:22:14.:22:18.

to the fire to make sure that Brexit is Brexit

:22:19.:22:24.

and we do actually leave the EU. You know my name?

:22:25.:22:27.

Great. His name is Larry Sanders,

:22:28.:22:28.

the Green candidate. If he seems a bit familiar,

:22:29.:22:31.

it's because his brother was the US presidential

:22:32.:22:34.

hopeful, Bernie Sanders. I'm part of a world movement

:22:35.:22:38.

that we can get past the last 30 years of perhaps shifting

:22:39.:22:41.

money from the rich from My brother Bernie started it

:22:42.:22:44.

and I want to finish it. It's a real pleasure

:22:45.:22:48.

to meet you both. Barrister Robert Courts is

:22:49.:22:50.

hoping to follow in David Cameron's

:22:51.:22:55.

Conservative footsteps. There's no such thing

:22:56.:22:57.

as a safe seat. I'll be getting out and meeting

:22:58.:22:59.

as many people as I possibly can in every town and listening

:23:00.:23:02.

to their concerns, and explaining why I think I'd be the best

:23:03.:23:05.

person to represent them. This will be Theresa May's first

:23:06.:23:08.

electoral test as Prime Minister, which is why she's not

:23:09.:23:10.

taking any chances and was out with one

:23:11.:23:16.

of her old friends this weekend, By-elections in safe seats sometimes

:23:17.:23:19.

have a knack of throwing Witney goes to the

:23:20.:23:24.

polls on Thursday. Ellie Price there,

:23:25.:23:28.

and a full list of candidates standing in Thursday's

:23:29.:23:38.

by-election is on the website. Now, he's got the most

:23:39.:23:41.

comfortable seat in parliament, he's a Lord but had to be elected

:23:42.:23:43.

to his position. Former Conservative Cabinet

:23:44.:23:46.

Minister Lord Fowler took up his position last week

:23:47.:23:50.

after winning a vote amongst fellow peers,

:23:51.:23:52.

and joins us in the studio. Congratulations again, although I

:23:53.:24:05.

think we spoke at the time, what is the role of the Lord's post EU

:24:06.:24:08.

referendum? The role of the Lord's post-referendum is exact to what it

:24:09.:24:12.

has been before, what we are about is scrutinising every piece of

:24:13.:24:16.

legislation that comes through, we do not have a guillotine process in

:24:17.:24:21.

the Lords, which, in the Commons, I was in the Commons 31 years, often

:24:22.:24:26.

means that really quite important issues are not given the attention

:24:27.:24:30.

that they might be. And so we go through every piece of legislation,

:24:31.:24:35.

and try to make constructive changes, if changes are needed to

:24:36.:24:40.

it. How will that work when it comes to legislation regarding Brexit, the

:24:41.:24:50.

laws, as you say, are not meant to frustrate the will of the Commons,

:24:51.:24:52.

they will vote against manifesto commitments by the government. --

:24:53.:24:54.

the Lords. The EU referendum result is different. We recognise, first

:24:55.:24:57.

thing, we recognise the primacy of the House of Commons. We don't wish

:24:58.:25:02.

to challenge that. But what it sometimes means is that there are

:25:03.:25:07.

disagreements between the two houses, or fiercely. We have an

:25:08.:25:12.

example of that last week, when, I think, the government lost about six

:25:13.:25:19.

divisions. That does not mean to say that those losses were actually

:25:20.:25:25.

going to legislation, because there will be compromises in between. You

:25:26.:25:29.

previously said that the Prime Minister the Commons should not

:25:30.:25:33.

leave the unchallenged so should they be able to block Brexit

:25:34.:25:40.

negotiation? As a general principle, certainly, I think that the Lords,

:25:41.:25:46.

at times, can vote down something that has come from the Commons, you

:25:47.:25:50.

have just been spending a lot of time, quite rightly, on health Dubs

:25:51.:25:53.

Amendment, well, if it had not been for the Lords, we would not have had

:25:54.:26:00.

alt Dubs Amendment, it did not get through the Commons. -- on Alf Dubs

:26:01.:26:06.

Amendment. Should the Lords be able to block through the terms of Brexit

:26:07.:26:13.

negotiation. I am going to give you the same reply, I am the House of

:26:14.:26:18.

Lords, I am neutral, I am not... I'm asking for your view, in terms of

:26:19.:26:25.

advising peers what to do, how did you vote on the EU referendum?

:26:26.:26:32.

McGrath I voted to remain. When it comes to decisions for example on

:26:33.:26:35.

the approval of triggering Article 50, the great repeal Bill. The

:26:36.:26:39.

Conservative peer, Baroness Patience Wheatcroft said that approval could

:26:40.:26:44.

be withheld and the Lords might actually delay things, is she right?

:26:45.:26:49.

I don't know, and I think that the position is at the moment with

:26:50.:26:53.

Article 50 there is a legal case, as you well know, on that. On the great

:26:54.:27:00.

repeal Bill, I'm not sure if that is going to be the title, but on the

:27:01.:27:03.

great repeal Bill, it will be like any other piece of legislation, we

:27:04.:27:08.

will go through it and there will be proposals and the government and the

:27:09.:27:12.

Lords and the Commons can go through it and make amendments. If

:27:13.:27:16.

amendments are necessary. I'm sure there going to be debates... Where

:27:17.:27:22.

we end up is anyone's guess. It is about the role, the great repeal

:27:23.:27:25.

Bill was not a manifesto commitment, it couldn't be, so in that case,

:27:26.:27:30.

could, as Patience Wheatcroft said, could the Lords frustrate the

:27:31.:27:32.

government on that issue? Frustrate is putting it in a rather emotive

:27:33.:27:40.

way. De Laet yet? Stop it? I think that the Lords could make amendments

:27:41.:27:49.

to the bill. -- delay it. They can make amendments to the bill in the

:27:50.:27:52.

same way that they make amendments to any other Bill, whether that is

:27:53.:27:58.

the end of the matter is quite another decision. The Commons can

:27:59.:28:02.

look at it, they can say whether they degree all they want some

:28:03.:28:06.

compromise or they reject. Let's say that one of the amendments of the

:28:07.:28:10.

great repeal Bill, we have been told by government ministers that is a

:28:11.:28:14.

chance for both elected members -- elected members and the house of

:28:15.:28:21.

lords to discuss this, what if one of the amendments was to discuss

:28:22.:28:24.

that there should not be a stance on the government of coming out of the

:28:25.:28:26.

single market, would that be in your view within the role of the House of

:28:27.:28:29.

Lords? I don't know, that would have to be something for the clerk of the

:28:30.:28:33.

parliaments to decide. As I say, you are putting me into a position that

:28:34.:28:39.

I don't actually occupy. I cannot be an advocate on this, I am meant to

:28:40.:28:44.

hold the balance, hold the consensus. It is rather new for me!

:28:45.:28:54.

Broadly speaking, would that be within the remit that you would find

:28:55.:28:58.

expendable -- acceptable. If it is in order, any thing that comes in

:28:59.:29:09.

order. Do you see a situation whereby the House of Lords could

:29:10.:29:12.

change of frustrate the democratic will of the people? On the great

:29:13.:29:15.

repeal Bill, that comes at the end of the process, what we are talking

:29:16.:29:19.

about is whether Parliament should be allowed to scrutinise, both

:29:20.:29:23.

houses, should be allowed to scrutinise the way that the

:29:24.:29:27.

government intends to interpret the instruction from the British people

:29:28.:29:33.

in the EU referendum to leave. What I said in the debate we had on this,

:29:34.:29:38.

in the Commons last Wednesday, was that there has clearly been a vote

:29:39.:29:42.

to leave the European Union expressed in a referendum but that

:29:43.:29:45.

does not mean that we should leave it in the most damaging way. I think

:29:46.:29:51.

that... You mean by leaving the single market? By having a very hard

:29:52.:29:56.

Brexiteer with no access... Relying upon... -- very hard Brexit. There

:29:57.:30:00.

has not been any vocation of not having access, a tariff... They are

:30:01.:30:07.

not sharing with us any of their thoughts on how they are trying to

:30:08.:30:11.

do it at the moment and I think that it is important for Parliament to

:30:12.:30:15.

have a say and be able to scrutinise the government in how they are going

:30:16.:30:19.

about the process. Do you believe there should be a vote ahead of

:30:20.:30:24.

Article 50, for the Commons, ahead of next March, for the terms of the

:30:25.:30:28.

negotiation? I think it is really important that the government sets

:30:29.:30:31.

out in a White Paper what they are thinking about in terms of the

:30:32.:30:37.

future. If there was a vote and they voted against the negotiating stance

:30:38.:30:43.

or coming out of the single market, surely that would be frustrating

:30:44.:30:45.

what people said in the EU referendum. This is done normally,

:30:46.:30:48.

this used to be done any time any minister... And I have represented

:30:49.:30:52.

the Council of ministers for the UK, whenever you would go to talk about

:30:53.:30:56.

a directive, you would have scrutiny from Parliament saying that you

:30:57.:30:59.

could operate within certain contexts. Nothing new about this.

:31:00.:31:05.

Would you like to see a vote before Article 50 is triggered?

:31:06.:31:12.

Should there be a vote? We should let the Government continue with the

:31:13.:31:19.

negotiation and I do not think there should be a vote before the

:31:20.:31:27.

triggering of article 16. Mike Watson has said grammar schools are

:31:28.:31:34.

dead. -- Article 50. The house of Lords would be within their right to

:31:35.:31:39.

oppose that policy. You say oppose it. Remember, we never defeat

:31:40.:31:44.

anything on second reading. What one is looking at is the bill. It had

:31:45.:31:49.

not come to us from the House of Commons. I don't know what happens

:31:50.:31:53.

in the hands of Commons, let alone in the House of Lords. We will

:31:54.:31:58.

obviously does that will be scrutinised. -- the House of

:31:59.:32:04.

Commons. You have to sit in the chair for about five minutes only to

:32:05.:32:08.

know there is a lot of feeling on grammar schools. We do take these

:32:09.:32:13.

decisions. On tax credits, we took the decision. We were much

:32:14.:32:18.

criticised, the House of Lords, for taking that. When it went actively

:32:19.:32:23.

House of Commons, and we basically said, look at this, think again,

:32:24.:32:28.

they thought again and nothing else was heard about the tax credits

:32:29.:32:32.

proposal. It is a process in action. I do know if that will be what

:32:33.:32:38.

happens with grammar schools. What I do know is with the educationalists

:32:39.:32:43.

and the others, grammar school people like myself, there will be

:32:44.:32:46.

quite a lot of feeling on this and quite a lot of experience. I hope

:32:47.:32:53.

you are looking forward to it. I am, greatly.

:32:54.:32:55.

Now, our guest of the day, Maria Miller, chairs the newly

:32:56.:32:58.

formed Women and Equalities select committee.

:32:59.:32:59.

But with a woman Prime Minister at the helm for a second time

:33:00.:33:02.

and girls now outperforming boys at school, is the work

:33:03.:33:05.

Well, Laura Perrins of the website, The Conservative Woman,

:33:06.:33:08.

Here's her Soapbox on why she thinks feminism is making women

:33:09.:33:12.

Modern feminism ignores what women actually want, which is a balance

:33:13.:33:24.

Feminism has been hijacked by a narrow elite who dominate

:33:25.:33:30.

Lots of women have far more traditional views

:33:31.:33:38.

than they are permitted to admit, which is one of the reasons

:33:39.:33:40.

we set up the website, the Conservative Woman.

:33:41.:33:44.

We used to have a reader who left comments telling us that today's

:33:45.:33:48.

generation of young women were kick ass and confident and going to take

:33:49.:33:52.

over the world, so we had better get used to it.

:33:53.:33:57.

What feminism has produced is a generation of whining,

:33:58.:34:01.

moaning women, who, despite unparalleled

:34:02.:34:04.

opportunity and wealth, view themselves as victims.

:34:05.:34:10.

After at least a decade of feminists claiming victimhood and mounting

:34:11.:34:21.

an extremely effective public campaign to serve their interests,

:34:22.:34:27.

girls now outperform boys all the way through

:34:28.:34:29.

Young women significantly outnumber young men at university and they out

:34:30.:34:36.

earn young man after graduation until the age of about 30.

:34:37.:34:49.

A recent report revealed that 38% of women were worried

:34:50.:34:54.

22% felt depressed, and 55% were worried for their future.

:34:55.:35:06.

The modern 20-something woman has inherited the fruits

:35:07.:35:09.

of the poisonous, feminist ideology that seeks to divide the sexes

:35:10.:35:14.

And Laura joins us now have already started the conversation. Listening

:35:15.:35:34.

to you, the sisterhood will be crying out and saying, you are a

:35:35.:35:37.

traitor to the cause and how on earth is the medicine to be blamed

:35:38.:35:42.

for women being Moni and miserable today? First of all, the first

:35:43.:35:48.

statistic is that only 7% of women identify as feminists. Medium

:35:49.:35:52.

politics is dominated by the agenda when ordinary women do not identify

:35:53.:35:57.

with it at all. Only 7%. The problem with modern feminism is that it is

:35:58.:36:04.

elitist, it in fantasises women by often second-guessing motives and it

:36:05.:36:09.

also, sadly in some cases, can make women genuinely unhappy. It is not

:36:10.:36:13.

those women I feel sorry for those women, and they should be supported.

:36:14.:36:17.

One reason I believe they are unhappy is because of an elitist

:36:18.:36:26.

agenda, a 1% feminist agenda, pushed by people like Maria Miller. What do

:36:27.:36:31.

you say to that, that it is an elitist issue? The menace is not

:36:32.:36:34.

something that has anything to do with the lives of ordinary women.

:36:35.:36:39.

The evidence we took in our select committee and our report to women at

:36:40.:36:44.

work and the payback -- pay gap would suggest that Laura is entirely

:36:45.:36:51.

wrong. The biggest problem hitting women are those on the lowest of

:36:52.:36:58.

pains. When in sectors like caring and hospitality, they will continue

:36:59.:37:02.

to have problems getting the sort of wages they can live on and the sort

:37:03.:37:06.

of career progression that perhaps other women take for granted. Some

:37:07.:37:10.

women in this country, very privileged women, have seen a great

:37:11.:37:15.

deal of change and benefit art of the feminist agenda. We want to make

:37:16.:37:21.

sure that it is everyone in who gets more access to equality in the

:37:22.:37:26.

future. Isn't you'll is really to do with middle-class women? You cite

:37:27.:37:30.

the fact that girls are doing better than boys at school and women are

:37:31.:37:33.

outperforming men throughout education. That is the new

:37:34.:37:36.

generation coming through and you have a problem with middle-class

:37:37.:37:43.

women who use they may be miserable and moany as a result of feminism

:37:44.:37:47.

but that is not entirely fair. Certainly not. The issue of the

:37:48.:37:51.

gender pay gap has been misrepresented in the media can do

:37:52.:37:55.

it ignores first low pay especially on how families work as a unit. The

:37:56.:38:02.

Institute for Fiscal Studies says women and 18% less per hour than

:38:03.:38:05.

men. There is nothing misrepresented about that. That does not take into

:38:06.:38:10.

account part-time work. I have never heard such rubbish.

:38:11.:38:31.

That is because you do not read about it. What is the rubbish?

:38:32.:38:36.

Demolition of the creed of liberation and equality for women.

:38:37.:38:43.

It has not caused women to become whining and unsatisfied. What we

:38:44.:38:46.

need is to see that women ought to be in allowed to take their places

:38:47.:38:53.

on equal terms with men in our society. We are a very long way from

:38:54.:39:00.

that. The pay gap is 30%. Once you are past 30. Why does it go down?

:39:01.:39:05.

Why does it widen when you are past 30, because most of the duties to

:39:06.:39:10.

have and look after children and disproportionately on women. We have

:39:11.:39:17.

not organised our society. They want to do that. I am not saying they do

:39:18.:39:23.

not. We need to organise our society so we care for children and are more

:39:24.:39:28.

child centres and when women do that they do not suffer a career

:39:29.:39:36.

disadvantage. -- child centred. Men and women contribute more. That is a

:39:37.:39:42.

change that feminism brings. When women want to come back into the

:39:43.:39:47.

workplace, are you saying they are not unfairly paid compare it to male

:39:48.:39:51.

counterparts and they are able to do the jobs they did before? --

:39:52.:39:59.

compared to male counterparts. They are not discriminated against once

:40:00.:40:02.

they come back. There is no evidence for that. Let Laura finished. It has

:40:03.:40:10.

been looked into. The Institute of economic affairs has looked into

:40:11.:40:16.

theirs. Women's hour, let's take women's hour. They had a survey out

:40:17.:40:20.

last week. Just let me finish this point. Of the women who work

:40:21.:40:25.

full-time, 56% said they would like to spend more time at home and 1.6%

:40:26.:40:31.

said they wanted to work. That is not the point we were talking about.

:40:32.:40:35.

Let's go back to being discriminated against in terms of pay. You have

:40:36.:40:43.

found different evidence. Let's listen to the evidence from Maria

:40:44.:40:47.

Miller on the Pagan. Our select MIDI took extensive evidence on this. --

:40:48.:40:56.

our select committee. Women over 30 could not go back into the sort of

:40:57.:41:01.

jobs they had before they had children and could not get flexible

:41:02.:41:04.

working enabling them to do the sorts of things they needed to. What

:41:05.:41:09.

we found very clearly was women did want to go back into work, did want

:41:10.:41:14.

to balance children and family commitments and their work lives.

:41:15.:41:18.

Too many employers are not making that available. Britain is suffering

:41:19.:41:22.

as a result. That is why business needs to deal with it. This woman

:41:23.:41:28.

has blamed the existence of Donald Trump on feminism. This is

:41:29.:41:32.

ludicrous. There were male chauvinist pigs long before feminism

:41:33.:41:37.

existed. We have got a liberation movement of women fighting for our

:41:38.:41:43.

equality, not more, fighting for our equality, to deal with issues like

:41:44.:41:46.

that. I won't sit here and be told by some of the better fight for

:41:47.:41:50.

equality causes male chauvinism. It certainly does not. Are you saying

:41:51.:41:57.

the absence of feminism means women would be happier today? I am saying

:41:58.:42:04.

they should not pitting men against women. Just because you do not like

:42:05.:42:08.

somebody's and to view does not mean you can ignore the evidence that is

:42:09.:42:15.

out there. There is conflicting evidence, isn't there? Conflicting

:42:16.:42:20.

because it has been picked out by the medium political elite. It is an

:42:21.:42:24.

important issue. Flexible working and part-time working is what women

:42:25.:42:30.

want. Top-down government initiatives will actually have a

:42:31.:42:33.

chilling effect on employers offering that. I seriously ask you

:42:34.:42:38.

to reconsider those kinds of proposals. It does not work. There

:42:39.:42:47.

are women on the right, like this, who say that if you give women equal

:42:48.:42:51.

pay it would stop women being allowed into the workplace. If you

:42:52.:42:58.

give women maternity leave... This is nonsense. Isn't it the point that

:42:59.:43:02.

the women who want to stay home and look after their children, they

:43:03.:43:05.

don't want to enter the workplace necessarily. Feminism is about

:43:06.:43:11.

choices and creating a society that enables women to stay at home and

:43:12.:43:14.

look after their children if they want or to go out and have a career

:43:15.:43:19.

and children if they want. Laura does not represent the views of the

:43:20.:43:22.

Conservative Party and I think her website could be misinterpreted in

:43:23.:43:27.

that way. The Conservative Party is absolutely focused on making sure

:43:28.:43:30.

that women can do their best in terms of going into work by getting

:43:31.:43:33.

jobs they want, and balancing that in the way they choose to balance

:43:34.:43:38.

it. I think Laura needs to look at the facts. Interestingly, Labour

:43:39.:43:45.

women MPs have always numbered more highly than other women MPs. In

:43:46.:43:50.

terms of Prime Minister is, of course, they have had two female

:43:51.:43:53.

Prime Minister. In a way, reaching the top has been easier or more

:43:54.:43:57.

possible under the Tories and Labour. That is undeniably true. We

:43:58.:44:04.

will carry on fighting. It is interesting to bearing in mind the

:44:05.:44:08.

different approaches, it has not happened. I absolutely accept that

:44:09.:44:12.

point. Will fight and carry on fighting the rest of my life to make

:44:13.:44:17.

sure we do as well in terms of female Prime Minister 's than the

:44:18.:44:19.

Conservative Party. Thank you. Now, looking ahead, let's see

:44:20.:44:22.

what else is coming up this week. At some point this week

:44:23.:44:25.

the government is expected, finally, to back a third

:44:26.:44:27.

runway at Heathrow. That was the recommendation

:44:28.:44:30.

of the Airport Commission last year, but with reports of up to 60

:44:31.:44:36.

backbenchers being opposed to the move, the pressure

:44:37.:44:43.

is on the government to come up Today Ukip's National

:44:44.:44:46.

Executive Committee will meet to discuss the process

:44:47.:44:48.

for electing a new leader. This follows a tumultous few weeks

:44:49.:44:50.

for the party, which ended in a fracas at the European Parliament

:44:51.:44:53.

that saw leadership hopeful On Tuesday the Home

:44:54.:44:56.

Affairs Select Committee will hear from the new chair of

:44:57.:44:58.

the inquiry into child sexual abuse. The inquiry has suffered a number

:44:59.:45:04.

of setbacks, and Professor Alexis Jay is the fourth

:45:05.:45:07.

person to have chaired it. On Thursday voters in Witney,

:45:08.:45:12.

David Cameron's former constituency, There's also another

:45:13.:45:14.

by-election in Batley and Spen, which was triggered after the death

:45:15.:45:19.

of Labour MP Jo Cox, but the main parties

:45:20.:45:22.

will not be contesting that. And Friday will mark Theresa May's

:45:23.:45:26.

first 100 days in office. But while the new PM has emphasised

:45:27.:45:32.

that "Brexit means Brexit", more and more questions are being asked

:45:33.:45:37.

about her government's plan We're joined now in the studio

:45:38.:45:40.

by Kevin Maguire, associate editor of the Daily Mirror,

:45:41.:45:45.

and the Daily Mail's Andrew Pierce. I knew that he would gate-crash...!

:45:46.:46:00.

Is that true? LAUGHTER I couldn't possibly comment. Talking

:46:01.:46:02.

about Philip Hammond and reported splits and tensions in the cabinet,

:46:03.:46:09.

is Philip Hammond the Chancellor a remoaner? He is, and it is visible

:46:10.:46:16.

servants, lukewarm Brexit, soft Brexit, whatever you want to call

:46:17.:46:19.

it, the Treasury is against it and it does not take long for

:46:20.:46:23.

institution of the Treasury to get the chance link to its claws,

:46:24.:46:26.

somebody in the Treasury is leaking stuff.

:46:27.:46:30.

Leaking stuff from government, surely not, that never happens(!)

:46:31.:46:38.

has this row been overblown, talk of Philip Hammond's role as a remoaner?

:46:39.:46:42.

He is looking at the figures and can see the realities of what Brexit

:46:43.:46:46.

might mean and he is concerned for the British economy, next year 's

:46:47.:46:50.

growth figures have been downgraded because of it, we have seen the

:46:51.:46:53.

powerful, hearing all the investors, not just banks but big manufacturers

:46:54.:46:59.

as well warning that they may cut investment, waiting to see how

:47:00.:47:04.

Brexit may work out, and it is not just the Treasury riffing, he has

:47:05.:47:09.

not fallen into the clutches of the Treasury, everybody is briefing, and

:47:10.:47:16.

labour, the governing party is what really counts, right across the

:47:17.:47:18.

governing party, there is a huge differences on where we go. If

:47:19.:47:21.

Philip Hammond is raising concerns, legitimately, in cabinet, Andrew

:47:22.:47:24.

Pierce, and saying he wants to delay migration curbs because it would

:47:25.:47:28.

harm business, isn't that his role? Is that really trying to subvert the

:47:29.:47:33.

democratic will of the people? He is entitled to raise his objections,

:47:34.:47:36.

and resignations, but the Prime Minister made it absolutely clear

:47:37.:47:40.

that free movement of people is one of her red lines, she wants curbs on

:47:41.:47:44.

immigration, he is trying to slow that down, it is fine to slow it

:47:45.:47:51.

down, I think he is resisting the will of the government. Will he get

:47:52.:47:54.

anywhere? Probably, the referendum was won by those who want to quit,

:47:55.:48:02.

Brexiteers, and... Theresa May has said that she has got to deliver

:48:03.:48:04.

Brexit, and to her, that does mean what she certainly implied, that

:48:05.:48:07.

freedom of movement will have two and, and we will not be under the

:48:08.:48:10.

jurisdiction of the European court of justice. She always says Brexit

:48:11.:48:15.

means Brexit but she does not fill in the gap afterwards, she never

:48:16.:48:19.

says what it means, that is where the battle is, ending free movement

:48:20.:48:25.

does not mean ending migration, we will still have a relationship,

:48:26.:48:29.

people will come in, people will go and work from Britain in the rest of

:48:30.:48:36.

the European Union, these attitudes must be had, these arguments must be

:48:37.:48:39.

aired, to pretend everyone is United is a myth. In the Downing Street

:48:40.:48:41.

briefing there was a vote of confidence from the Prime Minister

:48:42.:48:45.

in Philip Hammond, you would expect that, but also... Also LAUGHTER

:48:46.:48:50.

Also number ten make clear that she, Theresa May, once all the ministers

:48:51.:48:54.

working together. That is easier said than done. -- oncewants. You

:48:55.:49:06.

work with Philip Hammond in cabinet, is the one to resist and slow down

:49:07.:49:08.

the progress of Brexit if he believes it is in the best interest

:49:09.:49:13.

of the economy? It is not in the best interest of anybody to slow

:49:14.:49:16.

down Brexit, businesses want certainty and they want the business

:49:17.:49:23.

to be as quick as possible. I don't think the Treasury, or Philip

:49:24.:49:25.

Hammond, who has a good business background, would like to slow that

:49:26.:49:29.

down unnecessarily. We have to come to the right conclusion here, make

:49:30.:49:32.

sure we do not simply leave the YouTube accepts their roles as they

:49:33.:49:39.

are currently. We need to see a change in terms of freedom of

:49:40.:49:41.

movement, we need to... We need to see the laws that affect this

:49:42.:49:44.

country made in this country, that is what people voted for. Do you

:49:45.:49:50.

think Philip Hammond is signed up to delivering Grexit? Every member of

:49:51.:49:53.

the cabinet must be signed up to delivering Brexit, because that is

:49:54.:49:56.

what the British people have voted for. -- Brexit. When it comes to

:49:57.:50:07.

migration, it will be difficult to hit the net migration target if it

:50:08.:50:11.

is delayed. The two do not go together. Theresa May missed it

:50:12.:50:14.

consistently throughout her entire time. We were in the EU, then. I bet

:50:15.:50:20.

that she will continue in the Prime Minister not least because more

:50:21.:50:23.

people come into Britain from outside the European Union than

:50:24.:50:26.

within it, if immigration is your big thing, you should cut off the

:50:27.:50:34.

world instead of Europe! It is about sovereignty and Britain's parliament

:50:35.:50:36.

deciding which laws it has, on migration and labour, what is wrong

:50:37.:50:40.

with the government saying, limiting the influx of cheap unskilled labour

:50:41.:50:46.

from Eastern Europe, we don't need it. Sovereignty of Parliament and

:50:47.:50:50.

yet Theresa May is frightened of giving Parliament votes Andre Gray

:50:51.:50:54.

Article 50 and the terms. Moving on to something else that we have been

:50:55.:51:02.

waiting for a decision on, the airport expansion, Heathrow, looks

:51:03.:51:04.

as if there is another short pause on that announcement, why is that?

:51:05.:51:07.

We have been waiting for 15 years, Frankie, what's another week! But,

:51:08.:51:15.

we still think it will be Heathrow, they will be sorting out Boris

:51:16.:51:18.

Johnson, he once said that he would sit in front of the bulldozer to

:51:19.:51:21.

stop it, perhaps trying to prevent a by-election in Richmond with Zac

:51:22.:51:24.

Goldsmith full. The Shadow Transport Secretary has written a piece saying

:51:25.:51:30.

that a third runway is fine? Most Labour MPs I believe back Heathrow

:51:31.:51:33.

expansion, Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell they do not, and so the

:51:34.:51:37.

tried and trusted way of the new Labour Party, they will have a free

:51:38.:51:40.

vote and they will go that way! LAUGHTER

:51:41.:51:48.

Where are you on it? I think Heathrow is probably the best at the

:51:49.:51:50.

moment, not least because it connects the Northern economy with

:51:51.:51:55.

the new gateway that the extra runway will bring about. But I also

:51:56.:52:01.

think that we have got to ensure that the air pollution that would

:52:02.:52:06.

result is dealt with appropriately, and the environmental safeguards are

:52:07.:52:09.

good enough. Jeremy Corbyn is reluctant to support the idea of a

:52:10.:52:13.

third runway and John McDowell, Shadow Chancellor, is dead against

:52:14.:52:21.

it, always has been. What happen to leadership? -- John McDonnell. It is

:52:22.:52:25.

clear to me that we need to make a decision on airport expansion for

:52:26.:52:28.

the good of the economy, the economy is being threatened by other things,

:52:29.:52:33.

not least the shock of Brexit. Without a united front on the Labour

:52:34.:52:38.

leadership? There is probably a majority in the Commons for Heathrow

:52:39.:52:39.

but time will tell. It is hopeless that the opposition

:52:40.:52:46.

cannot form... To be honest, when David Cameron was in opposition...

:52:47.:52:52.

When David Cameron was in opposition he had free votes on all sorts of

:52:53.:53:00.

things and he took the credit. On Heathrow, Labour was for it, the

:53:01.:53:02.

Conservatives were against it, conservatives for it, Labour

:53:03.:53:07.

against. Flip-flop. Maybe a free vote is the only way forward! To

:53:08.:53:11.

people who never free flip-flop on issues and their principles, thank

:53:12.:53:16.

you very much. We reported earlier on the by-election in Witney and we

:53:17.:53:20.

have our very own list of candidates standing in the by-election, that is

:53:21.:53:25.

on-screen now: you can find that list on the BBC website as well.

:53:26.:53:32.

Now, how do you like your political logos?

:53:33.:53:34.

Red flag? Red rose?

:53:35.:53:35.

Maybe you're more of a bird or oak tree person?

:53:36.:53:37.

But what makes a good political logo and what do they say

:53:38.:53:40.

about the parties and politicians they represent?

:53:41.:53:42.

One of our guests has firsthand experience of this

:53:43.:53:44.

after Angela Eagle recently had to devise a logo for her Labour

:53:45.:53:47.

We'll be asking her about that in a moment,

:53:48.:53:50.

but first here's a look at some of the new political logos

:53:51.:53:53.

And, here to cast his eye over all those logos

:53:54.:54:47.

is Benedict Pringle, the founder of

:54:48.:54:49.

Why do they matter? They matter because they differentiate you from

:54:50.:54:57.

the other candidates standing, and they tell the people looking at your

:54:58.:55:01.

campaign a little bit about you, a visual short cut to the candidates

:55:02.:55:07.

values, to their personas, and so, look, a good logo is not going to

:55:08.:55:11.

win you the election but it is not a bad place to spot -- start. Look at

:55:12.:55:16.

this, what did you think of this? I thought the positioning was very

:55:17.:55:21.

strong, boring real leadership is the point of divide between her and

:55:22.:55:26.

Jeremy Corbyn, very sensible. I thought, however, the general look

:55:27.:55:30.

and feel of it for me did not feel particularly authentic to Angela.

:55:31.:55:35.

That is my signature, that is me! LAUGHTER

:55:36.:55:40.

Is it a bit behind the signature? Well, I have played chess for my

:55:41.:55:43.

country, and when I was sat there, with the little flag, doing my

:55:44.:55:47.

chess, I was as proud as proud and they, as a lot of those Olympians

:55:48.:55:51.

will be marching through what I hope is a wonderful procession. That is a

:55:52.:55:58.

flag... It is the UK flag. How long did you think about this? I'm sure

:55:59.:56:02.

you are proud of being a chess champion, but... It was a long time

:56:03.:56:06.

ago! What was going through your mind when you devised this? Well, it

:56:07.:56:10.

was done very quickly, because obviously, you have a load of other

:56:11.:56:15.

things to do and you do not have a megabudget. It is a signature, and a

:56:16.:56:20.

quick message, that is all you can hope to get. Why the colour pink?

:56:21.:56:26.

Well, it is not really paint, it is pinkish. -- not really pink. Owen

:56:27.:56:37.

Smith, stood the leadership, we don't have time to get into a debate

:56:38.:56:40.

about colour, we had this in the past. What about this one? This

:56:41.:56:49.

is... A bit boring... He just wanted to avoid slipping on a banana skin.

:56:50.:56:53.

I don't think he gained or lost anything from it. Jeremy Corbyn's...

:56:54.:57:00.

This was his second logo, of his first leadership campaign, a

:57:01.:57:05.

commentator on my website commented that maybe there is a hidden meaning

:57:06.:57:09.

in this logo, does it say up with the left and down with the right?

:57:10.:57:14.

Well! You would have to have thought about that...! Is that what it said

:57:15.:57:20.

to you? I had never thought of it in that way... Perfectly reasonable

:57:21.:57:29.

design. Keeping very safe there are! Sadiq Khan, news logo for Mayor of

:57:30.:57:32.

London, did you like this? This was a logo, contemporary, bright,

:57:33.:57:36.

colourful. Nice graphic of the Thames, who doesn't like rivers(!)

:57:37.:57:42.

it is politically neutral, as well. Willing to cross the divide, that is

:57:43.:57:45.

always sensible. Do you think there was a lot of money spent on that? I

:57:46.:57:48.

know that that was done in-house at the Labour Party, so not that much

:57:49.:57:54.

money was spent on it. So not always about money, you don't have to spend

:57:55.:57:57.

a fortune. Very often you have to have a clear idea about what you

:57:58.:58:02.

want to say, and ideas are free. You have some ideas for Angela Eagle,

:58:03.:58:07.

here you go. Here you go... A gift! Symbol of leadership and strength,

:58:08.:58:11.

going back to Roman times, a gift of a name! Looks a bit liberal... And a

:58:12.:58:20.

kind of Dove peace thing going on, so you represent leadership,

:58:21.:58:24.

strength, unity... Maria Miller, we will not leave you out, we have one

:58:25.:58:27.

for you. I thought, if the time comes... Influence of Hillary in

:58:28.:58:36.

there! The only way is up, good strapline if your party is in times

:58:37.:58:40.

of trouble. And you have your theme song there as well! Looks a bit

:58:41.:58:45.

industrial, I would go for something softer, the Conservative Party route

:58:46.:58:48.

that you can move from the torch to the tree and actually make the

:58:49.:58:52.

change really smoothly. She has been thinking about it, standing for the

:58:53.:58:56.

next leadership(!) and give very much for coming in, and for your

:58:57.:59:03.

ideas. -- thank you very much for coming in.

:59:04.:59:05.

I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big political stories

:59:06.:59:12.

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