Browse content similar to 21/10/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
Theresa May enters the 'nest of doves' - | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
and tells EU leaders in Brussels that the UK expects to play a full | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
He says the Lib Dems are the 'come back kids' of British politics, | :00:49. | :00:58. | |
after they take second place in the Witney by-election. | :00:59. | :01:01. | |
The Conservatives held David Cameron's old seat | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
Plaid Cymru hold their autumn party conference in Llangollen. | :01:07. | :01:12. | |
The party's leader - Leanne Wood - joins us live. | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
And Hilary and Donald trade jokes - and insults - at a white-tie | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
This is the first time ever, ever, that Hillary is sitting down | :01:20. | :01:30. | |
and speaking to major corporate leaders and not getting paid for it. | :01:31. | :01:45. | |
The tone of the US election keeps on rising. | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
And with us for the whole of the programme today. | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
The Guardian's deputy political editor Rowena Mason, and Paul Waugh, | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
executive politics editor at the Huffington Post. | :01:57. | :01:57. | |
Now, in the small hours of this morning we got the results | :01:58. | :02:04. | |
There were no upsets - Labour won Batley and Spen, | :02:05. | :02:16. | |
while the Conservatives retained David Cameron's Oxfordshire | :02:17. | :02:18. | |
Our political correspondent, Mark Lobel can bring us | :02:19. | :02:20. | |
Starting with Batley and Spen, this was Jo Cox's old seat, the | :02:21. | :02:28. | |
by-election created by her tragic murder. Tracy Braeburn, a friend of | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
Jo Cox, who was killed last June, and why we are having this | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
by-election, she won A confident of victory, there were some far right | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
parties that stood but none of them retained their deposit. None of them | :02:44. | :02:49. | |
got more than 5% of the vote. In her speech Tracey Bray been said it was | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
a bittersweet moment, it was a tragedy that the by-election had to | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
be held in any place, and Brendan Cox, the husband of the late Jo Cox, | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
he said he was happy that the purveyors of hate, as he regarded | :03:02. | :03:07. | |
the opponents, were defeated commended not return their deposits, | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
there were some heckling in the acceptance speech -- were defeated | :03:14. | :03:21. | |
and did not return their deposits. Labour did contest the Witney | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
by-election, David Cameron's old seat. The Lib Dems through a lot | :03:26. | :03:31. | |
into this and they went from a rather poor fourth in the election, | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
now to second. Conservatives held onto it reads to become to be, what | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
is being said about this result? -- held onto it reasonably comfortably. | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
It was the first test of Theresa May, it was not a great victory, | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
with the loss of 20,000 votes, but for the Liberal Democrats, they are | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
claiming a big victory, going from fourth to second place, from seven | :03:56. | :04:03. | |
to 30% of the vote. Tim Farron suggests in such a constituency with | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
a strong Remain vote, voters were calling to him and to look at | :04:09. | :04:16. | |
keeping the UK in the EU single market, and he was cock-a-hoop | :04:17. | :04:17. | |
whatever the reason. All right. I mean, 19% swing from | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
the Conservatives to the Liberal Democrats is the best result | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
for the Lib Dems in a by-election against the Conservatives | :04:27. | :04:29. | |
for nearly 20 years. And it feels like we | :04:30. | :04:30. | |
are the comeback kids We've fought a great campaign | :04:31. | :04:32. | |
here and lots of people have voted for us because they saw | :04:33. | :04:41. | |
us as fighting for a much better direction for our country, | :04:42. | :04:44. | |
a strong alternative to the Tories, That is why Labour faded | :04:45. | :04:46. | |
and we took second Mark, did they harbour hopes of | :04:47. | :04:56. | |
winning this by-election? Are they contend with a decent second? | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
Labour's deputy leader Tom Watson said the real reason was to | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
embarrass Labour by taking the second place slot, but they threw | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
everything into this, 100 peers came out, Tim Farron visited five times. | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
They were hoping for a close second place. And maybe with the hope of | :05:16. | :05:22. | |
taking the seat, one of these seats which they need to start taking back | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
in order to reverse the terrible losses they suffered last year. It | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
is fair to say this could be seen by some Lib Dems as at least | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
kick-starting their recovery, although as the turnout was under | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
50% we can't take it that serious way. Mark, thanks for joining us. -- | :05:39. | :05:47. | |
seriously. Rowena Mason, can you be the comeback kid by coming second? | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
No. LAUGHTER Young if we look at the National | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
polls, the Lib Dems are still down on six, 7%, but it is also the sort | :05:58. | :06:06. | |
of all you would expect for a government in a by-election. -- | :06:07. | :06:13. | |
besought of fall. You might expect the official opposition to be the | :06:14. | :06:16. | |
party who would do better in that say, Labour gaining more than the | :06:17. | :06:19. | |
Lib Dems come and it is a huge amount to have gone up -- in that | :06:20. | :06:26. | |
seat. It might give Theresa May a bit of pause for thought, if it is | :06:27. | :06:29. | |
still in the back of her mind that she might call a general election in | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
the next year. There are many seats in the South West that the Tories | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
took off the Lib Dems last time and if there were to be a Lib Dem | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
revival some of those seats could swing back and that could be | :06:43. | :06:45. | |
dangerous to her majority, that will be one of the dangers of her calling | :06:46. | :06:52. | |
a general election. Tim Farron is claiming that this was a vote for | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
staying in the single market. What is the evidence for that? There is | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
no real evidence for this. Is there any evidence? There is some, this | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
was a seat which voted Remain in the referendum and that is what they are | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
trying to extrapolate. It is like the government reading many things | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
into the Brexit vote, because at the party conference they have read in | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
all sorts of stuff about whether it was a vote on migration or written | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
is being left behind globalisation. -- Britain. You can over interpret, | :07:28. | :07:34. | |
but you can't over interpret the Ford in the Labour vote, and Jeremy | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
Corbyn has got to have worries about this -- the fall. What was the fall? | :07:38. | :07:47. | |
They went down a little bit, but they did not much up the | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
disaffection with the Tories. They have reversed to type, 22010, when | :07:53. | :07:59. | |
Labour came third, and don't forget the reason this is worrying for | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
Labour, the Lib Dems surge has been in council by-elections, as well. | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
Not just against the Tories. Labour have lost against the Lib Dems in | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
big swings in Derbyshire, the north-east, and in Sheffield, and | :08:14. | :08:16. | |
that is why Labour MPs are worried. Their own leader says judge us by | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
by-election results and counsel by-election results, but they have | :08:23. | :08:29. | |
not been that good. Would you be mad not to consider this if you were | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
going to call a general election? What will determine what she does is | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
how poorly Labour continues to poll nationally. If it continues on the | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
low level at the moment and if the Tories are above 40%, there was a | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
poll which put them on 47%. Partly because of the collapse of Ukip. | :08:49. | :08:55. | |
Yes, that is what she will be looking at more than anything else, | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
and the big gap between the Tories and Labour. So don't keep your eye | :08:59. | :09:01. | |
on Witney. No. With the renewal of Trident | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
the Royal Navy will get four brandspanking new submarines to play | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
with, and this morning they've So our question for today is, | :09:11. | :09:12. | |
what have they called it? At the end of the show | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
Rowena and Paul will give Theresa May is in Brussels | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
for her first full summit of EU leaders since becoming | :09:24. | :09:30. | |
Prime Minister. Brexit is not officially | :09:31. | :09:31. | |
on the Council agenda - but that hasn't stopped it | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
being talked about. Last night Mrs May insisted that | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
Britain would play a full role in all EU business until the moment | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
we leave, while the president of the EU Council, Donald Tusk, | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
said the other 27 EU member states would not behave like a den of lions | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
- insisting instead that for Theresa May it would be | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
like entering 'a nest of doves'. The PM is due to hold | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
talks with the president of the European Commission - | :10:00. | :10:01. | |
Jean Claude Juncker - later today but arriving | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
at the summit, Mr Juncker seemed exasperated by | :10:06. | :10:07. | |
questions about Theresa May. How did the evening | :10:08. | :10:18. | |
go with Theresa May? We had no special event with | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
Theresa May yesterday. She was explaining | :10:24. | :10:30. | |
what her intentions were. I will have lunch with her, and then | :10:31. | :10:32. | |
we will see what has to happen. What do you plan to say | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
to her over lunch? Yeah, yeah. | :10:37. | :10:38. | |
But that makes a difference. Let's get the latest | :10:39. | :10:46. | |
from Brussels, and speak to our Europe Correspondent | :10:47. | :10:48. | |
Damian Grammaticas. We understand Theresa May is about | :10:49. | :10:54. | |
to give a press conference, and if we have a clip of that we will run | :10:55. | :11:00. | |
it. Coming on to the more important issues, but first, is anything | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
regarding Brexit really happening over there? To be honest, not much. | :11:05. | :11:10. | |
LAUGHTER The Gaelic rosemary which | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
Jean-Claude Juncker gave today was precisely because of that -- | :11:16. | :11:25. | |
Rasberry. He kept being asked about Brexit and his answer was, not much, | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
because not much is happening until the Article 50 native occasional | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
letter arrives in this building, and he knew very well that last night | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
Theresa May's intervention was only five minutes long after coffee when | :11:39. | :11:45. | |
she explained about the timetable for Brexit. It is overshadowed by | :11:46. | :11:51. | |
the bigger issues of Russia and until the UK triggers it there won't | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
be negotiations. He will have lunch with her today, he was asked how he | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
found her, famously having said he might find difficult, he said he | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
found her charming. There you go. He's back in diplomatic mode. And | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
now to the bigger issue, the more immediate issue, the British, | :12:12. | :12:18. | |
Germans and the French want to take a tougher line regarding sanctions | :12:19. | :12:21. | |
against the Russians because of what is happening in Syria. And | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
elsewhere. As I understand it it was effectively blocked by the Italian | :12:27. | :12:33. | |
Prime Minister. How serious is that? It is quite serious. To be honest, | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
from my understanding it is not just the Italians, the Austrians have a | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
significant part in this, as well. Both of those countries have quite | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
significant business trading relationships with Russia. Both also | :12:49. | :12:57. | |
have issues politically, they want to exert themselves a bit inside the | :12:58. | :13:03. | |
EU and they don't want Germany and France dominating things, so there | :13:04. | :13:06. | |
is a bit of that going on in the background, up it is significant, at | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
this moment in time when Europeans are looking at what is happening in | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
Syria, what is happening in Aleppo, and what has been happening in | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
Ukraine, trying to find a unified approach and still struggling to | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
find that language which they wanted to toughen up. Some of the leaders | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
want to get tougher and they wanted the mention of sanctions, but that | :13:31. | :13:38. | |
was toned down. Wallonia, I don't often say that on The Daily | :13:39. | :13:41. | |
Politics, but the Socialist leader of Wallonia has been holding up, he | :13:42. | :13:48. | |
is the stop out on the EU site, the free trade deal with Canada -- side. | :13:49. | :13:55. | |
He has been invited to join them, Wallonia being one of the regions | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
part of the Belgian federal structure, is he under a lot of | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
pressure? Is he about to break on this? Will the deal now be done? | :14:04. | :14:10. | |
Yes, he is under an enormous amount of pressure, and I don't think he | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
has been invited here but he has been locked in meetings with the | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
European Commission and the Belgian federal government because they need | :14:19. | :14:21. | |
his say-so to sign that deal to give the whole of the EU, 500 million | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
people, the go-ahead to sign that trade deal with Canada. Is he about | :14:26. | :14:34. | |
to cave? My sense is no. We are in Wallonia this week talking to | :14:35. | :14:36. | |
members of his Socialist party and they were very clear, although they | :14:37. | :14:42. | |
represent a small regional area, 3.5 million French bakers in the south | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
of Belgian, their view, they do not like this trade deal -- French | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
speakers for the day think it could undermine workers' rights and the | :14:53. | :14:58. | |
rights of citizens in European countries, consumer rights, in | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
favour of multinationals and big businesses, and they also do not | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
like what they see as the protections given to multinationals. | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
A court dispute system which would sit outside European courts. They | :15:12. | :15:17. | |
want that element of it changed. Canada's Trade Minister has been | :15:18. | :15:20. | |
here locked in talks with Wallonia, it sounds incredible, when you think | :15:21. | :15:26. | |
about it. But they are sitting there today, their parliament has been | :15:27. | :15:29. | |
meeting, saying they are not signing until they are satisfied, and they | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
feel they are in the vanguard of an anti-trade feeding that is growing | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
worldwide and that is why they are doing so -- feeling. The Socialists | :15:39. | :15:46. | |
in Wallonia and the centre right here in Brussels, there are | :15:47. | :15:48. | |
differences, but they are pressing on. Theresa May is giving her press | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
conference now and if we have a clip we will run it. | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
We've been joined by the acting director of the | :15:59. | :16:00. | |
think-tank Open Europe, Stephen Booth. | :16:01. | :16:02. | |
Before I come onto Brexit, let's not be too myopic, let's come onto the | :16:03. | :16:09. | |
other things I was talking to Damian Grammaticus about. As Russia is | :16:10. | :16:15. | |
increasingly being accused of war crimes in Syria and being on | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
manoeuvres elsewhere, the Europeans are unable to come to a common | :16:20. | :16:26. | |
position to turn up the sanctions screw. The EU has negotiated a | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
free-trade deal with Canada, democratic, progressive, civilised | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
nation and 3 million people look like they might be able to stop it. | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
Aren't both these things signs of a certain dysfunction in the European | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
Union? Yes, I think that's a fair comment. On both those issues, | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
Russia, I think, that is where Theresa May wanted to go there with | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
a constructive attitude and say we can help you with some of these | :16:56. | :16:58. | |
things. And the French and Germans were on the same side. And within | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
the European Union, and afterwards, it is an important message we can | :17:05. | :17:07. | |
send when we come to Brexit but on the trade side of things, it is of | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
some concern, because the UK may be in the same position as Canada, | :17:12. | :17:14. | |
seeking that trade agreement with the rest of the EU and this anti | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
trade globalisation is difficult to do these kind of deals. We know that | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
if we attempt to do a free-trade deal to replace our membership of | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
the single market, why do we think that in that case, Wallonia or | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
anybody else would be in the same position? This is to do a free-trade | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
deal that is opening out trade between the EU and Canada. | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
Allerdale, no matter how good it is, would not be as open as being in the | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
single market -- our deal. So Wallonia may not have a say. That | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
political argument doesn't stand up for the reasons you say, this is not | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
about new, opening up... If anything, we might talk about a | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
trade barrier between the UK and the EU, so the argument doesn't stand | :18:02. | :18:04. | |
up. Brett procedurally, it may need to go through the same process. But | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
back the lead but we don't know that but does it also suggest that these | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
multilateral trade deals are in real trouble because of anti trade | :18:16. | :18:18. | |
globalisation forces and Wallonia would not be an issue if Britain and | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
Canada were to do a free-trade deal? Yes, exactly and I think that is | :18:23. | :18:31. | |
something that would vindicate the decision to leave the EU, it is not | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
the sort of thing we would try and face making lateral deals with the | :18:37. | :18:39. | |
likes of Canada but multilateral deals within the WTO, is it | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
something we can build allies for, greater free-trade? The likes of | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
Australia, Canada, perhaps the US, depending on what happens, might see | :18:50. | :18:51. | |
us as useful allies in that endeavour. The meetings that are | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
going on at the moment, and will continue until we trigger Article | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
50, they are just Shadow dancing at the moment, aren't they? Posturing. | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
Yes, but what I think the UK needs to do is shift the terms of the | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
debate. We are having this Shadow dance but it is all around this very | :19:10. | :19:12. | |
detailed discussion of how much trade can we get to control | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
immigration? No one is thinking strategically about what kind of | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
relationship we want between the UK and the EU on both sides. Trade is a | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
fundamental element but it is not the only element. The UK is | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
important to the EU's internal and external security, the issues about | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
Russia, which is something the UK would want to be engaged in and the | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
EU should want UK engagement in it. So before we get to the nitty-gritty | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
negotiation, we need to explain how we see the EU as a valuable | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
geopolitical partner. Some of these issues will be naughty and difficult | :19:48. | :19:50. | |
but if you set them in the context... Of the broader | :19:51. | :19:57. | |
geopolitical context. And do we want to create a trade war in the context | :19:58. | :20:04. | |
of where we are dependent on each other with these issues? We find it | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
hard to get to grips with the British Government's bargaining | :20:11. | :20:13. | |
position, they do not yet know, they'll still grappling towards it, | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
but we are even more in the dark, other than the posturing from | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
Francois Hollande or Jean-Claude Juncker, we are even more in the | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
dark as to what the EU's bargaining position is going to be, aren't we? | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
Yes, and that is partly because there is a high degree of | :20:30. | :20:32. | |
self-preservation in the sense that a lot of these people face their own | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
elections, so they can't be seen to give anything to the British, but I | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
think more importantly and the point I alluded to earlier, no one is | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
thinking in strategic terms and we can't expect Jean-Claude Juncker | :20:45. | :20:47. | |
Donald Tusk to think about that, because they deal with the EU. What | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
we are talking about now is a broader issue of how we manage | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
European affairs between the EU and the UK and other nations. That is a | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
fair point, if you narrow it down to trade, you get the beating of | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
breasts and the rattling, but if you place the negotiations in the | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
context of Britain being the biggest military power in Europe, being a | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
key part in security and intelligence and having a major | :21:14. | :21:16. | |
geopolitical role to play in Europe, in or out of the EU, you may then | :21:17. | :21:22. | |
get a different result. That is why you had to go back to what David | :21:23. | :21:25. | |
Cameron was trying to argue in his negotiating with the rest of Europe. | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
He was saying let's recognise that Britain plays all of these other | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
roles, it is not just about trade, it is the global role in Nato, | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
internal intelligence, all that kind of stuff. But crucially, Cameron | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
could persuade the rest of the EU to water down freedom of movement in | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
any way and we can't get away from that. You are right, Andrew, do the | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
EU in any way want to negotiate or just play hardball? Even though | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
Chuka Umunna, sitting in that seat last night, tried to argue that the | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
Europeans were coming around to a different view of freedom of | :22:01. | :22:08. | |
movement. But as they say... I'm not sure that Angela Merkel when it | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
comes to that, given that she was brought up behind the Iron Curtain | :22:13. | :22:15. | |
and so on, it is important to... Are we aware of just how divided the | :22:16. | :22:22. | |
British Government is on this? I mean, when I first heard some of the | :22:23. | :22:25. | |
stories, I thought it was exaggerated. But the more I have | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
looked into it, there are huge divisions, but particularly through | :22:30. | :22:37. | |
the three Brexiteer is and Philip Hammond in the Treasury and now | :22:38. | :22:40. | |
between Mr Hammond and Theresa May and ten Downing Street. They have a | :22:41. | :22:43. | |
lot of work to do to get a united front, I would suggest. I think you | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
are absolutely right, there are some serious divisions between members of | :22:49. | :22:51. | |
the Cabinet and one consequence of Theresa May saying let's have some | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
of these discussions as a Cabinet group, rather than taking them as, | :22:56. | :23:03. | |
as previous governments might have done, behind closed doors at Downing | :23:04. | :23:06. | |
Street, we are seeing some of the tensions come out into the Open. | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
There have been briefings and leaks. They come and speak to you! Exactly, | :23:12. | :23:19. | |
it is quite beneficial from that point of view. There are definitely | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
issues over the immigration and different systems that might be used | :23:25. | :23:27. | |
to bring down immigration. There is a point of tension over whether you | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
include students in the immigration or not. Which Mr Hammond seems to | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
have been slapped down on. He seemed to be hinting that the public didn't | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
consider foreign students necessarily as migrants. And Number | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
Ten has categorically ruled out budging on that. Then there is the | :23:46. | :23:48. | |
issue of the single market. We don't quite know when Number Ten itself | :23:49. | :23:51. | |
stands but Philip Hammond seems to be leading the charge as the person | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
saying we need as full as possible access to the single market. The | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
three Brexiteers have a different viewpoint on that. When Article 50 | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
is triggered, before the end of March, the Prime Minister tells us | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
when it is done, if it is not done at the time, surely in the immediate | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
aftermath, the Government will come under huge pressure to give a | :24:16. | :24:18. | |
general idea of what its negotiating position is, not to be detailed, not | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
to give away its tactics, but surely it has two layout "This is broadly | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
what we are going to demand in the negotiations". Yes, I agree and I am | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
not of the view that it necessarily hinders its progress in the EU, | :24:35. | :24:37. | |
because we have to set some parameters, what is the EU talking | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
about? We have said we are taking a political decision to have political | :24:43. | :24:49. | |
autonomy from the EU that governs the trade and the UK will want an | :24:50. | :24:56. | |
individual policy. Are we going to do it so closely that we give up the | :24:57. | :24:59. | |
freedom we have voted for question what the Government will set of | :25:00. | :25:02. | |
parameters but there are still shades of grey we can negotiate. But | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
without the parameters, Theresa May is going to find it increasingly | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
difficult to manage the domestic politics, because it is clear that | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
the vote will have consequences for the relationship and setting at | :25:16. | :25:18. | |
those early on will let businesses and the public know where they | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
stand. Wood in July to be a fly on the wall -- wouldn't July to be a | :25:23. | :25:29. | |
fly on the wall with Theresa May and Jean-Claude Juncker? | :25:30. | :25:31. | |
Now, if you were watching the Daily Politics on Wednesday, | :25:32. | :25:33. | |
you may remember this exchange during PMQs. | :25:34. | :25:35. | |
Some of my constituents who have had their tax credits suddenly | :25:36. | :25:37. | |
stopped by Concentrix have been accused of being in a relationship | :25:38. | :25:40. | |
with the previous tenants of their homes who they have | :25:41. | :25:42. | |
And in some cases they have been accused of being in a relationship | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
with members of their own family and told to prove that they are not. | :25:48. | :25:50. | |
This Kafkaesque situation is causing deep distress and hardship amongst | :25:51. | :25:52. | |
Is this what the Prime Minister means by being on the side | :25:53. | :25:58. | |
And what is she going to do to put it right? | :25:59. | :26:05. | |
The right honourable lady raises an issue which is of concern | :26:06. | :26:08. | |
Making sure that those who are being assessed | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
are being assessed properly and the decisions, the right | :26:14. | :26:16. | |
The Department for Work and Pensions is looking at that whole process | :26:17. | :26:22. | |
of what should be done and how those assessments should | :26:23. | :26:25. | |
The Prime Minister replying to Maria Eagle. | :26:26. | :26:36. | |
Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs contracted the US company Concentrix | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
to look for fraudulent or incorrect tax credit claims back in 2014. | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
The contract, worth up to ?75 million over 3 years, | :26:45. | :26:52. | |
was meant to save the Government ?1 billion in tax | :26:53. | :26:54. | |
The company cross checks public records such as council tax, | :26:55. | :27:00. | |
the electoral register and postal records against tax credit claims | :27:01. | :27:02. | |
HMRC say Concentrix has identified ?280 million of fraud | :27:03. | :27:10. | |
But MPs have been inundated with requests for help | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
by constituents who have had their tax credits taken away. | :27:16. | :27:23. | |
When claimants tried to challenge the decisions, many found it | :27:24. | :27:25. | |
impossible to contact Concentrix - HMRC say that only 10% of calls | :27:26. | :27:28. | |
On 14th September, HMRC announced they would not extend the Concentrix | :27:29. | :27:37. | |
181,000 cases were handed back to HMRC who say they have now dealt | :27:38. | :27:48. | |
Giving evidence to the Work and Pensions Select Committee | :27:49. | :27:56. | |
earlier this month, HMRC said that there have been 15,000 appeals | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
90-95% of appeals have been successful in overturning | :28:01. | :28:06. | |
Maria Eagle joins us now from Liverpool. | :28:07. | :28:16. | |
And I should mention that we did ask the Treasury and HMRC | :28:17. | :28:19. | |
for an interview with someone responsible, but they declined. | :28:20. | :28:29. | |
Let's go to Maria Eagle. Are you relieved, gratified, even, that HMRC | :28:30. | :28:38. | |
is now back in charge of this? Well, I am not sure all of this mess is | :28:39. | :28:45. | |
Concentrix's fault, it is the fault of HMRC as well. It is they that | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
passed over this 1.5 million pieces of information. And the quality of | :28:51. | :28:56. | |
some of it seems to be so poor. And, you know, HMRC say in their charter | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
that the people that deal with them have a right to be believed. The | :29:01. | :29:07. | |
upper tier tribunal says in law that it must be HMRC that proves there is | :29:08. | :29:10. | |
a problem. Yet what has happened to my constituents is that they don't | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
get paid, they then get a letter that says they have an undeclared | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
partner, but the letter doesn't say who it is supposed to be. They then | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
have to prove that they don't Allsup this is a complete mess that is the | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
making of both HMRC and Concentrix. Some of the cases that I have have | :29:29. | :29:34. | |
been dealt with HMRC after the cases have gone back to them. And so I am | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
not convinced that this is entirely content chicks -- Concentrix. But | :29:39. | :29:46. | |
the reality is that my constituents, who are vulnerable financially, they | :29:47. | :29:49. | |
are young mums with very little spare cash, are being forced to | :29:50. | :29:55. | |
stand to the pressure of this and it is completely outrageous. I want to | :29:56. | :29:58. | |
come back to the human cost of this in a moment and just hear some of | :29:59. | :30:01. | |
the problems of your constituents, but before I do, can I just get it | :30:02. | :30:08. | |
clear that although Concentrix clearly has made mistakes, otherwise | :30:09. | :30:11. | |
they wouldn't be losing so many appeals, and obviously haven't | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
handled this well or they wouldn't be losing the contract, but HMRC are | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
guilty as well because it was their job to monitor, regulate and enforce | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
what Concentrix was doing. Is that your case? | :30:24. | :30:26. | |
That is true, and HMRC, this contract which passes over on a | :30:27. | :30:35. | |
payment by payment result spaces, you only get paid if you save money | :30:36. | :30:38. | |
and if you stop claims, in other words. -- basis. You hand over the | :30:39. | :30:46. | |
power to Mali to make decisions and to do the mandatory considerations | :30:47. | :30:49. | |
of those decisions -- you hand over the power to Concentrix to make | :30:50. | :30:55. | |
decisions. They have not thought about the effect on very vulnerable | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
young mothers. These are young mothers who are working part-time | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
and don't have much spare cash in my constituency. The trend as you are | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
picking up from your constituents, and my right in thinking that one of | :31:10. | :31:15. | |
the things they are doing, if you are on tax credits, they tried to | :31:16. | :31:20. | |
check if you were cohabiting with someone and whether or not there is | :31:21. | :31:23. | |
a partner in the house and if they are established that, to their | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
satisfaction, they then just stopped the tax credit? That is what has | :31:28. | :31:35. | |
been happening? Yes, the first thing that people knew about it, they said | :31:36. | :31:38. | |
we didn't get paid, and then they tried to get through on the phone | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
and can get through and then they would get a letter saying they had | :31:43. | :31:45. | |
an undeclared partner, but it didn't say who the partner was supposed to | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
be. Then when you have got to the bottom of it, the allegation is it | :31:51. | :31:53. | |
was someone who lived in the same house for- five years previously | :31:54. | :31:59. | |
after that the same sex, by the way, and my constituent never even knew | :32:00. | :32:05. | |
this person. One of your constituents was having an affair | :32:06. | :32:08. | |
with Joseph Rowntree who died in 1925? ! That was a case in | :32:09. | :32:15. | |
Birmingham, but Joseph Rowntree is a 19th-century Quaker. I got that bit. | :32:16. | :32:21. | |
LAUGHTER How on earth is a person supposed to | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
work out that that is the person they are supposed to be cohabiting | :32:26. | :32:28. | |
with in order to prove that it isn't, that they are not, it is | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
ridiculous. Clearly mistakes have been made, big mistakes, at human | :32:34. | :32:40. | |
cost. Especially if you cut someone's tax credit and you don't | :32:41. | :32:43. | |
even tell them. And then they can't find out why. Do you accept there | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
was fraud and error going on, though? They identified ?218 million | :32:49. | :32:55. | |
of fraud and error and HMRC have validated that that bit was right. | :32:56. | :33:02. | |
We all want tax credits to be paid in the proper amount to the right | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
people and nobody will defend fraud or error. I suspect there is far | :33:07. | :33:12. | |
more error than fraud. I've had cases where HMRC have accepted they | :33:13. | :33:18. | |
have got the address wrong and as a consequence people have had money | :33:19. | :33:21. | |
stopped and I have had to borrow money and then have been offered ?5 | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
a week of the moneyback -- they have had to borrow money. It takes weeks | :33:26. | :33:31. | |
for them to get the moneyback they were entitled to through no sense of | :33:32. | :33:34. | |
their own -- through no-fault of their own. This is not a sensible | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
way of administrating tax credits. Given this has caused pain to | :33:40. | :33:47. | |
members of society who are already struggling to make ends meet, that | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
is why they are getting tax credits, so what we do next? Do we leave it | :33:53. | :33:59. | |
as this now it has gone back to her HMRC? Hasn't there got to be some | :34:00. | :34:05. | |
culpability for this? I think so, we need to know more about why this has | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
gone wrong and we have seen buckpassing between HMRC and | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
Concentrix, the contract treated like a hot potato, and I think the | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
Parliamentary review is a good thing. What has been forgotten by | :34:19. | :34:25. | |
HMRC and Concentrix is the vulnerable nature of the individuals | :34:26. | :34:28. | |
who are entitled to this money, there has been a breach of the | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
HMRC's own charter and people are being left to try and manage and | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
I've had to hand out food, bank fractures, people have gone into | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
debt. There have been ongoing issues for people who have got into arrears | :34:42. | :34:48. | |
with their rent and I've got constituents who are being | :34:49. | :34:50. | |
threatened with eviction, this is not acceptable as a way of making | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
savings, making sure that fraud and error is reduced. Something needs to | :34:55. | :34:59. | |
be done about this. The bomber ability of these individuals has to | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
be acknowledged -- the vulnerability. They can't be made | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
scapegoats for this nonsense and this buckpassing between HMRC and | :35:10. | :35:21. | |
Concentrix. Thanks for joining us. Paul, it has not been a great week | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
the government, Maria Eagle brought this up in PMQs and this is the kind | :35:26. | :35:31. | |
of thing which goes on under the radar until it is brought up. The | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
Home Office has got into a mess over what child migrants are and what | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
aren't and they did not seem to be able to tell the difference. Not a | :35:41. | :35:46. | |
great week for government competence. This is a huge | :35:47. | :35:51. | |
bureaucracy at work and sometimes the consequences of the way the | :35:52. | :35:54. | |
state interacts with individuals, it is messy and often incompetent, | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
let's be honest, there's a large degree of public service is with | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
this going on. But the political problem for Theresa May is that she | :36:04. | :36:06. | |
is opposed to be a new kind of government on the side of the | :36:07. | :36:08. | |
striving classes, the just coping classes. These are the people being | :36:09. | :36:15. | |
affected by this kind of thing, and that is why people like Damian Green | :36:16. | :36:18. | |
say, let's have a look at this again. He has made jobless contract | :36:19. | :36:23. | |
has ended early, as well as her HMRC, and his idea of reviewing the | :36:24. | :36:26. | |
way benefits are recessed the disabled -- he has made this | :36:27. | :36:35. | |
contract and early. -- end early. I bring you in as an outside company | :36:36. | :36:39. | |
to look at the tax credits situation and you get a free, but then I say | :36:40. | :36:46. | |
you will get more if you can find people who are cheating and does | :36:47. | :36:49. | |
that give you a perverse incentive to do that? -- fee. It is a perverse | :36:50. | :37:01. | |
incentive, and it would encourage any company to not give as much | :37:02. | :37:04. | |
leeway as they might have done on some cases. Remarkable they did not | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
tell people before they withdrew their tax credits, isn't that a | :37:10. | :37:15. | |
breach of proper government, maybe even human rights, that is just | :37:16. | :37:18. | |
wrong. It will have to be investigated. To add to what Paul | :37:19. | :37:23. | |
was saying, Theresa May has allowed herself to be painted as a safe pair | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
of hands and if you have more of these scandals of confidence in | :37:29. | :37:34. | |
government... The Goddard inquiry. It won't play with at well for her. | :37:35. | :37:41. | |
-- it won't play out well for her. We have got to move on. | :37:42. | :37:44. | |
You may have thought the autumn political | :37:45. | :37:45. | |
conference season was over - but you'd be wrong. | :37:46. | :37:47. | |
Plaid Cymru are holding their conference this weekend | :37:48. | :37:49. | |
in the north-east Welsh town of Llangollen. | :37:50. | :37:51. | |
The party has 11 members of the Welsh Assembly | :37:52. | :37:53. | |
and is considering a formal coalition with the minority | :37:54. | :37:55. | |
The party's leader Leanne Wood is there and joins us now. | :37:56. | :38:03. | |
Welcome back to The Daily Politics. One of the big issues is the | :38:04. | :38:11. | |
direction of your party, there seems to be confusion, maybe there isn't, | :38:12. | :38:16. | |
you can put it right, are you considering a formal coalition with | :38:17. | :38:19. | |
the Labour government in the Welsh assembly? There seems to be at | :38:20. | :38:27. | |
session about whether or not Plaid Cymru would like to go into | :38:28. | :38:30. | |
coalition or not, what we have always said is that Wales's best | :38:31. | :38:34. | |
interests are at the top of our agenda and at the moment being in | :38:35. | :38:40. | |
opposition is working very well for us. Just this week we announced a | :38:41. | :38:46. | |
deal with the Welsh government in order to enable their budget to pass | :38:47. | :38:53. | |
where they alligator ?290 million towards some joint priorities -- | :38:54. | :39:01. | |
where they allocated. And ?190 million to Plaid Cymru's election | :39:02. | :39:04. | |
priorities for the this week we get to implement our manifesto and we | :39:05. | :39:10. | |
also get to hold the government to account and that is crucial, | :39:11. | :39:13. | |
especially as we move towards the triggering of Article 50. The Welsh | :39:14. | :39:21. | |
voice needs to be articulated. To make sure the Welsh government is | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
doing a proper job of that. Are you considering a formal coalition with | :39:27. | :39:33. | |
Labour or not? No, we're not. You told the BBC earlier this week that | :39:34. | :39:39. | |
you work actively considering a coalition? -- you were. Andrew, the | :39:40. | :39:46. | |
BBC ask me every month if I'm considering a coalition with Labour | :39:47. | :39:50. | |
and the answer is always the same. I'm not prepared to rule it out | :39:51. | :39:53. | |
because it might come to the point where it is in Wales's best | :39:54. | :39:58. | |
interests to have Plaid Cymru in government in order to shape the | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
government's response to Brexit because they not doing a very good | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
job of that at the moment. It is our view that a soft Brexit would be in | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
Wales's best interest but the Labour government have recently voted with | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
Tories and the Ukip in the assembly for a hard Brexit approach, and we | :40:16. | :40:20. | |
are saying that we need to be a member of the single market to | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
protect the 200,000 jobs that are in Wales and rely on membership of the | :40:25. | :40:31. | |
single market. There needs to be an alternative voice put in the | :40:32. | :40:34. | |
National Assembly because otherwise the opposition will just come from | :40:35. | :40:37. | |
the right and that will be no good for Welsh people either. Keeping | :40:38. | :40:43. | |
your options open, which is what you have just told me now, that is not | :40:44. | :40:49. | |
the same as actively considering a coalition as you told the BBC | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
earlier this week? It is a debate we are having all the time, because we | :40:55. | :41:01. | |
are constantly considering what our best interests are, Wales's best | :41:02. | :41:04. | |
interests, and some people think the best interests are to be in | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
government and others think the opposite. It is an ongoing debate, | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
there is an active consideration, we are not wanting or seeking a | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
coalition, but we want to keep the option open just in case it comes to | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
the point where it is in Wales's best interests to do that. Wales | :41:21. | :41:26. | |
voted to leave the European Union and everybody, the top people in the | :41:27. | :41:33. | |
Remain campaign and Leave campaign made it clear that leaving the | :41:34. | :41:36. | |
European Union means leaving the single market in terms of membership | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
of the single market, so why are you defying the will of the Welsh | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
people? I don't recall the question about the single market being on the | :41:47. | :41:49. | |
ballot paper and I don't recall the question about hard or soft Brexit | :41:50. | :41:56. | |
or even immigration. No, but leaders on both sides made it clear that the | :41:57. | :41:59. | |
vote to leave was a vote to leave the single market, are you disputing | :42:00. | :42:05. | |
that? As I understood it the vote was to leave the European Union and | :42:06. | :42:11. | |
we will leave. The question is how and what the arrangements are. Let | :42:12. | :42:17. | |
me run you this clip of the leaders of both Leave and Remain and what | :42:18. | :42:21. | |
they said about the single market and leaving the EU. | :42:22. | :42:29. | |
The British public would be voting, if we leave, to leave the EU | :42:30. | :42:32. | |
Should we come out of the single market? | :42:33. | :42:35. | |
I think that that is almost certainly, that would | :42:36. | :42:38. | |
Do you want us to stay inside the single market, yes or no? | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
We should be outside the single market. | :42:43. | :42:44. | |
I had Michael Gove in that chair and I said, after Brexit, | :42:45. | :42:47. | |
will we be in the European single market, yes or no? | :42:48. | :42:50. | |
So we won't be in the European single market? | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
We would be out of the single market. | :42:55. | :42:57. | |
Britain would be quitting, quitting the single market. | :42:58. | :43:00. | |
There we have it, David Cameron, George Osborne, Andrea Leadsom, | :43:01. | :43:08. | |
Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, what did you not understand about that? | :43:09. | :43:11. | |
If you vote to leave you will be outside the single market. Those are | :43:12. | :43:18. | |
Tories and the Tories have never Michel a mandate to speak on behalf | :43:19. | :43:22. | |
of the people in Wales. -- have never won a mandate. They said a | :43:23. | :43:27. | |
vote to leave means leaving the single market. They can say what | :43:28. | :43:31. | |
they like, that was not on the ballot paper. The Tories said a lot | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
in the referendum campaign that I would want to distance myself from. | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
I think that leadership of the Remain campaign by tossed -- Tories | :43:40. | :43:50. | |
is what lost us the referendum. You trying to tell me that the Welsh | :43:51. | :43:53. | |
people did not know what they were voting for when they voted to leave, | :43:54. | :43:56. | |
that they were also voting to leave the single market? When the leaders | :43:57. | :44:02. | |
of the Leave and Remain campaigns were explicit in saying that if you | :44:03. | :44:06. | |
vote to leave the EU, you vote to leave the single market. The Welsh | :44:07. | :44:15. | |
people understood that. Look, the Leave campaign said ?350 million a | :44:16. | :44:22. | |
week would be made available to the NHS and that was a lie, as well. My | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
contention now is that there are 200,000 jobs in Wales which rely | :44:28. | :44:32. | |
upon us being a member of the single market and I intend to advocate the | :44:33. | :44:35. | |
best interests of Wales and that is what we think is in the best | :44:36. | :44:39. | |
interests of Wales at this point in time, and I'm not going to stop | :44:40. | :44:43. | |
advocating that. Why is it in the best interests of Wales, that in | :44:44. | :44:50. | |
?190 million allocated to your priorities, out of a ?15 billion | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
budget, so you did not get that much for your priorities, your priorities | :44:56. | :44:59. | |
were to give only ?1 million to support end of life care but ?5 | :45:00. | :45:05. | |
million to the Welsh national language agency, is that the | :45:06. | :45:06. | |
priorities of Plaid Cymru? Well, we will vote for ?1 million | :45:07. | :45:20. | |
towards end of life care in addition to what is there already. You can | :45:21. | :45:28. | |
always attack spending on the Welsh language and arts and music and all | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
those things that are in our front line public services, but I happen | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
to think culture is important. Five times more important than end of | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
life care? No, that is not what I'm at all. The money for the end of | :45:43. | :45:48. | |
life care is in addition to what is being spent already. The ?5 billion | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
for the Welsh language agency, there is no money being spent on that at | :45:53. | :45:57. | |
the moment -- ?5 million. There is money spent on the Welsh language at | :45:58. | :46:01. | |
the moment, this is just going into a quango. There has always been a | :46:02. | :46:04. | |
lot of money spent on the Welsh language. Well most money is spent | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
on the English language, of course. We are talking about a very small | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
amount for the Welsh language and if you were talking equality, we would | :46:14. | :46:17. | |
be spending around ?7 billion on the Welsh language, so we are not | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
anywhere near equal. ?7 billion question mark will that be in your | :46:23. | :46:28. | |
next manifesto? That is about half of the budget. No, not in the next | :46:29. | :46:33. | |
manifesto, of course! We have won a significant amount of games out of | :46:34. | :46:36. | |
this budget deal, it is a budget deal I am very proud of, the biggest | :46:37. | :46:42. | |
ever agree by an opposition party since the beginning of devolution | :46:43. | :46:45. | |
and it is something we stand very pleased with and we are going to | :46:46. | :46:48. | |
shout about it. You have just done that, thank you very much the | :46:49. | :46:49. | |
joining us. Now it's one of the most frustrating | :46:50. | :46:51. | |
things to hear when you're driving. But seeing as more than half | :46:52. | :46:54. | |
of us use a sat nav now, rather than a map, it's one plenty | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
of us will have heard. Well, a Government-backed project | :46:59. | :47:01. | |
could change all that. all-sat-naving map that's been | :47:02. | :47:03. | |
made of all British roads. Our Ellie has gone for | :47:04. | :47:07. | |
a spin to find out more. Turnaround when possible... | :47:08. | :47:26. | |
# Whereon around the village road to nowhere -- | :47:27. | :47:29. | |
# We're on a road to nowhere # Come on inside... OK, so I know | :47:30. | :47:35. | |
I'm not the only person who get really frustrated with Sapnas, but | :47:36. | :47:38. | |
hope Mac though it helpfully, the Government has gone badly put some | :47:39. | :47:43. | |
money in to help things run more smoothly. They paid ordnance survey | :47:44. | :47:50. | |
?3 million to make the ultimate Battle of Britain's 200,000 plus | :47:51. | :47:56. | |
miles of Rome. -- Road. We have benefited from height restrictions | :47:57. | :47:59. | |
and with restrictions, which we can use to tell such love riders that it | :48:00. | :48:05. | |
may not have restrictions but it is not suitable for your vehicle. -- to | :48:06. | :48:12. | |
tell SAP nav riders. That might have been useful to these riders, who | :48:13. | :48:16. | |
opted to take big lorries down the small roads and under low bridges. | :48:17. | :48:24. | |
The data that has been collected will be made available for sat nav | :48:25. | :48:27. | |
manufacturers, so they will have to pay for it. And seeing as it is | :48:28. | :48:32. | |
truck drivers that can to get blamed for when sat navs go wrong, they are | :48:33. | :48:36. | |
cautiously welcoming this new development. We have been supplying | :48:37. | :48:42. | |
sat navs the many years and the crucial thing this gives us is one | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
single source of data. That is great but the really important thing is | :48:47. | :48:49. | |
that the funding needs to continue so it is kept up-to-date and truck | :48:50. | :48:53. | |
drivers have the very latest information in their systems to be | :48:54. | :49:00. | |
able to use, because things changed. -- change. And it will be up to | :49:01. | :49:03. | |
councils to keep the information up to date. Of course, there is one | :49:04. | :49:11. | |
other way of making the whole sat nav thing a little bit more | :49:12. | :49:14. | |
enjoyable. Let's change the sound, shall we? | :49:15. | :49:25. | |
ANDREW NEIL'S VOICE: It is clear we are not making any progress here, so | :49:26. | :49:31. | |
let's move onto the next destination. Ellie Price, I am | :49:32. | :49:38. | |
always giving her directions. And we've been joined | :49:39. | :49:40. | |
from Tunbridge Wells the deputy chairman | :49:41. | :49:42. | |
of the Local Government Association. It represents all local governments | :49:43. | :49:50. | |
in England. The mapping system is clearly in the right direction, do | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
you think it will solve this problem of heavy goods vehicles blighting | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
roo wrote villages? Will it do much for that, do you think -- blighting | :49:59. | :50:04. | |
rural villages. Like you, we think it is a step in the right direction | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
but not as far as we would like to go. At the moment, truck drivers do | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
have access to a lot of information and some choose either not to access | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
it or to ignore it. Quite obviously, there are signs about weight or | :50:17. | :50:22. | |
height restriction coming up and those are perfectly visible to a | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
truck driver, so many of our communities, particularly rural | :50:27. | :50:29. | |
communities, has seen this blight for many years and what we are | :50:30. | :50:35. | |
saying is this is a good step for responsible lorry drivers, but those | :50:36. | :50:41. | |
irresponsible ones, inconsiderate drivers, we need a bit of a stick as | :50:42. | :50:47. | |
well. At the moment, police take them through the courts. It is a | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
long, lengthy, costly bureaucratic process. We are saying and on the | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
spot fine for lorries that are using roads that are clearly unsuitable | :50:57. | :51:00. | |
for them. Do you have enough enforcement powers at the moment to | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
do them or to make these finds effective or do you need more power | :51:05. | :51:11. | |
-- fines. We have consistently asked for more power on this issue. At the | :51:12. | :51:16. | |
moment, only the police can take the drivers through the courts, hugely | :51:17. | :51:21. | |
costly bureaucratic process and we are saying it is fairly obvious when | :51:22. | :51:25. | |
an infringement has happened and councils are best placed to put an | :51:26. | :51:30. | |
on the spot fine and get that company thinking again about sending | :51:31. | :51:33. | |
their drivers on a particular route. I think it is kind of hard to miss a | :51:34. | :51:39. | |
32 tonne articulated truck on a road that it shouldn't be. What do you | :51:40. | :51:44. | |
think would be an appropriate level of fine, that would hit the hauliers | :51:45. | :51:50. | |
and make them stop doing this? We haven't spoken about the level of | :51:51. | :51:55. | |
fine, we are saying let's look at something that is sensible, because | :51:56. | :51:57. | |
actually, not all infringements are the same. But I think we need to at | :51:58. | :52:05. | |
least go in the right direction and say let's take this off the police | :52:06. | :52:08. | |
who frankly have other things to do and should be spending their time is | :52:09. | :52:11. | |
in the with the bureaucratic process we have at the moment, where pounds | :52:12. | :52:15. | |
in the late councils would be better placed to sort these problems out -- | :52:16. | :52:22. | |
where councils would be. I see the haulage Association is blaming you | :52:23. | :52:24. | |
with poor signage. What do you say to that? TROs, the pieces of paper | :52:25. | :52:31. | |
we have to put in and we put in a height or weight restriction, they | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
are public knowledge, this is the information they are using for this | :52:36. | :52:39. | |
new system, so to say that they don't know where the issues are is a | :52:40. | :52:46. | |
bit of a misnomer, I think a red herring. Clearly, they are | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
representing their own people in this, but we have all seen stories | :52:52. | :52:56. | |
of historic buildings being damaged, bridges being damaged, vehicles | :52:57. | :53:02. | |
being stuck. We are all getting frustrated when something like this | :53:03. | :53:06. | |
happens and we can't get to where we need to get to. Thank you for being | :53:07. | :53:10. | |
with us and explaining that. It is an interesting issue to talk about. | :53:11. | :53:14. | |
Let me turn to our guests here, with a quiz. How many miles of road are | :53:15. | :53:24. | |
there in Great Britain? In crikey. 100,000? 10,000. You are closer, but | :53:25. | :53:35. | |
not close. 215,000 940. What is the most common road name? Station Road. | :53:36. | :53:44. | |
Almost kind of close, I consider where you are thinking. Something to | :53:45. | :53:52. | |
do with Elizabeth. High Street. Got it, there are 2151. How many mini | :53:53. | :53:57. | |
roundabouts are there across Great Britain, excluding Northern Ireland, | :53:58. | :54:09. | |
I guess? 2,000. 5,000. You are closer, 13100 and 48. There you go, | :54:10. | :54:13. | |
interesting but useless stats here on the Daily Politics. | :54:14. | :54:16. | |
There are just over two weeks to go until the US election, | :54:17. | :54:19. | |
and after the intensity of Wednesday night's presidential | :54:20. | :54:21. | |
debate, Hilary Clinton and Donald Trump traded jokes - | :54:22. | :54:23. | |
and insults - at a white tie charity dinner in New York last night. | :54:24. | :54:27. | |
The media is even more biased this year than ever before. | :54:28. | :54:32. | |
Michelle Obama gives a speech and everyone loves it, | :54:33. | :54:43. | |
My wife Melania gives the exact same speech... | :54:44. | :54:53. | |
People look at the Statue of Liberty and they see a proud symbol | :54:54. | :55:05. | |
of our history as a nation of immigrants. | :55:06. | :55:09. | |
A beacon of hope for people around the world. | :55:10. | :55:13. | |
Donald looks at the Statue of Liberty | :55:14. | :55:15. | |
Maybe a five, if she loses the torch and tablet | :55:16. | :55:24. | |
Well, I think Mr Trump's joke was better, wasn't it? It was quite | :55:25. | :55:41. | |
clever, in a way. The delivery was a lot better. That was the only good | :55:42. | :55:46. | |
joke he had, because it was self-deprecating, the rest of it was | :55:47. | :55:50. | |
a barrage of attacks. It was excruciating to watch, if I had been | :55:51. | :55:54. | |
in the audience, I would have been embarrassed. Mrs Clinton is sitting | :55:55. | :55:58. | |
there and he is saying all that, and then she does it to a lesser extent. | :55:59. | :56:03. | |
It kind of underpinned the horrible tone, the toxic tone of the whole | :56:04. | :56:07. | |
campaign. Absolutely, this was supposed to be a charity event. You | :56:08. | :56:13. | |
don't go on the attack. When it was Barack Obama and Mitt Romney, they | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
undermined themselves with some nice gentle, self-deprecating humour. | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
This one was all toxic. If the polls are right, and this is always a big | :56:23. | :56:25. | |
if these days, but if they stayed away we are, -- they are, are we | :56:26. | :56:31. | |
starting to work out what the Clinton presidency might look like? | :56:32. | :56:35. | |
This has been a campaign dominated by personal smear and almost total | :56:36. | :56:41. | |
absence of policy. I think that certainly foreign leaders will have | :56:42. | :56:44. | |
to turn to that in the coming weeks, but as you say, you just can't count | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
any chickens before the actual election day. Mrs Clinton got | :56:49. | :56:54. | |
dragged to the left by Bernie Sanders during the primary campaign. | :56:55. | :57:02. | |
As she moved more towards the centre during... That is not the what | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
happens, you get dragged, though not necessarily in Mr Trump's case, you | :57:07. | :57:10. | |
get dragged to the extreme in the primary, or to your grass roots, | :57:11. | :57:15. | |
more fundamentalists, and then because you have to reach out to a | :57:16. | :57:19. | |
wider electorate beyond your base, you become more centrist again. Has | :57:20. | :57:23. | |
she followed that? It will be interesting and picks up on what we | :57:24. | :57:27. | |
said earlier about free trade and the threat to free trade and | :57:28. | :57:30. | |
globalisation and whether there is a new movement towards protectionism | :57:31. | :57:34. | |
abroad. The way she has talked in this campaign, she has said maybe we | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
don't need a free-trade area with the Pacific region as much as we | :57:40. | :57:44. | |
have had. I suspect she won't say that when she wins and when it comes | :57:45. | :57:47. | |
to foreign policy, which is where the president can have free rein by | :57:48. | :57:51. | |
and large, we will see a lot more of her talking about climate change on | :57:52. | :57:56. | |
Middle East policy and a more robust policy against Russia. Even if it is | :57:57. | :57:59. | |
Mr Trump and a Republican Congress, he will have trouble with that | :58:00. | :58:02. | |
Congress because a lot of Republicans don't think he is a | :58:03. | :58:06. | |
Republican. And if it is Mrs Clinton in the White House with a Republican | :58:07. | :58:12. | |
Congress, she will definitely have a lot of trouble with it. It is not | :58:13. | :58:15. | |
plain sailing, whoever wins. Whoever wins, it will be an interesting time | :58:16. | :58:19. | |
watching US politics and I think Paul is absolutely right, I think if | :58:20. | :58:24. | |
it is Hillary Clinton, as looks likely, she will be tacking more to | :58:25. | :58:27. | |
the centre. But Trump can undermine her. Sorry we couldn't bring it is | :58:28. | :58:33. | |
it was a press conference, because it hasn't happened, we haven't had a | :58:34. | :58:37. | |
link. And what was the name of the new submarine we are going to get? | :58:38. | :58:43. | |
Dreadnought, Thatcher, Trafalgar, Churchill? Any idea? It is | :58:44. | :58:47. | |
dreadnought, not that original but a famous name in the Royal Navy. The | :58:48. | :58:50. | |
one o'clock News is starting over on BBC One and I will be back at 11am | :58:51. | :58:58. | |
on Sunday morning with the Sunday Politics. Cabaye. -- goodbye. | :58:59. | :59:01. |