20/10/2016 Daily Politics


20/10/2016

Jo Coburn is joined by Nick Clegg to discuss Brexit, food prices and passports. Also includes discussion of the final US Presidential debate with the pollster Andrew Cooper.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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MPs are continuing to put pressure on the government over Brexit,

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with Labour demanding a vote on the plans before

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Theresa May is off to Brussels for her first EU summit,

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she'll tell her fellow leader she doesn't want to wreck

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the European project, but that there's no chance

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of Britain doing anything other than leaving.

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It's Clinton versus Trump round three, and this White House

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title fight isn't getting any less nasty.

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Now Donald Trump says he may not accept the result of the election.

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Anyone like to bring back the blue passport?

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That would be ridiculous, wouldn't it?

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We'll be talking about the campaign to bring back the old blue passport

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There are not one but two parliamentary by-elections today,

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as voters choose new MPs to take the place of David Cameron

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And those by-elections may be two big political events today,

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but broadcasting rules mean we can't discuss them until the polls close

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So joining me to not discuss them, it's the former

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He's now the Lib Dem spokesman on Europe and since leaving

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government he's found time to write a book -

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appear at a few literary festivals - and even star

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Other than the Daily Politics I mean.

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Welcome to the show, Nick.

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More than 100 MPs have backed a Commons motion to strip former BHS

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owner Philp Green of his knighthood following the collapse

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of the high street chain, which left 11,000 staff out of work

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and the pension scheme with a large deficit.

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The debate on the demise of BHS is just getting

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It's the first time Mps have tried to remove a knighthood from a member

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of the public although we don't yet know if they will have a chance

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Should it be subject to a vote? If there was a vote and I was there, I

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would probably vote in favour. I think in particular what was

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happening with the lack of clarity to the pension scheme is so

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outrageous. So you would vote for him to lose his knighthood? I

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probably would but I am quite uneasy about the fact that MPs will start

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hand-picking people they think should or should not keep their

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honour or not. What will happen next? Labour will table a motion

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saying Lynton Crosby should have his knighthood revoked because they

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don't like him or whatever? Isn't this bit Philip Green has been

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before but committee of MPs and he has left thousands of people

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possibly without pensions and this is a symbol, an important symbol for

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parliamentarians to have a say? That of the argument and I get that. He

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is in a unique and unflattering category of his own. I think the

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country at large is absolutely flabbergasted at the cavalier way at

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which people's pensions and jobs and livelihoods have been dealt with. I

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just think if we made a habit as the Parliament of kind of saying, today,

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it is Thursday, we are now going to target X server or Dame. The whole

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honours system is a little peculiar as it is. I think it would properly

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be even more topsy-turvy if Parliament spent too much time

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trying to retract knighthoods and honours from people. And it doesn't

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mean anything either? It is not binding because the forfeiture

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committee has to do it. It is only symbolic. When it happened before

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with Goodwin, it is not Parliament that does that. We will leave it

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there. I think the debate is lasting for three hours.

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Now it's time for our daily quiz, and today it's

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about the Conservative MP Peter Bone.

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Yesterday he told the Commons it was his birthday,

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and the Prime Minister caused some amusement when she told him

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she hoped that Mrs Bone would mark the occasion

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I have no idea why some people found that funny.

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Anyway, today's question is - what did Mrs Bone actually give

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Or D) A signed copy of Nick Clegg's book?

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At the end of the show Nick - who has absolutely no idea -

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Theresa May is in Brussels today for her very first EU summit.

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Russia's involvement in Syria and the immigration crisis

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are on the main agenda, but we're told the Prime Minister

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will tell the men and women who are, for now at least,

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still her fellow EU leaders, that there will be no second

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referendum, and that she wants our departure to be

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Well, back at Westminster the Brexit secretary David Davis has been

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taking questions from MPs including his Labour

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Yesterday, Mr Speaker, I wrote to the secretary of state to ask a very

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simple question. When will the plans be made available? The secretary of

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state replied promptly to my letter but failed to answer that central

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question. So, I am going to ask him again. When will the government's

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plans for leaving the EU be made available to this House? It is

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always our intention that Parliament should being gauged throughout. But

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the house also agrees a vital caveat that such a process should respect

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the decision of the EU when they vote to leave the EU -- should

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respect the decision of the UK. There should be a balance to be

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struck between transparency and good negotiating practice and I am

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confident we can strike that balance.

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Well, remain supporting MPs are showing no signs of letting up

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the pressure on the government over Brexit, with many demanding a vote

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on our future relationship with the EU.

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To discuss this we're joined now by the Conservative MP Oliver Dowden.

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Welcome back to the Daily Politics. Both of you voted Remain. We are not

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talking about the rights and wrongs of the vote but you do have

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different views on how to go forward from here. Oliver Dowden, broadly,

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you have accepted the vote. Indeed. Nick Clegg, you have not? I have

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accept the vote entirely that we will leave the European Union. What

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was not put before the British public is how you leave. There is a

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myriad different ways you could leave this club. There is not one

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simple form of Brexit. Since the Brexit is themselves did not deign

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to spell it out to the British people, not least because they could

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not agree amongst themselves what makes it meant, that is an open

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question. Yes there is a mandate to pull us out of the European Union

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but how you do it should be open to scrutiny. You want Parliament to

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vote before triggering article 50 say you want to see the plans from

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the government before article 50 is even triggered. You also want a

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second referendum on the terms of the deal at the end of the process.

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Everything you are doing suggests you want to prolong this whole

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process, that you're hoping in some way to stay, if not as a full member

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of the EU, you want to stay very closely aligned. It does not sound

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like you have accept it at all? No, there is huge difference between

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denying, I am not denial about the vote. I wish it was otherwise. But

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you are trying to reverse it? Not at all. The plans of how you leave the

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European Union, do you stay part of the customs union or not? Do you

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stay part of the single market or not? Do you make financial

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commitments if you are part of the crime-fighting commitments. The

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government says they want to participate, how do you do that?

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What does it mean for our law and budgetary contributions? My own

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view, for what it is worth, is people voted for Brexit as George

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Osborne pointed out. They did not necessarily vote for hard Brexit.

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Which would mean us leaving the single market. Are you saying that a

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remain alike Nick Clegg and Ed Miliband should shut up and go away

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and they should not express the views that we are hearing? I am not

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saying that at all. I think it is very important that Parliament

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debates and scrutinises this. Nick and I both contributed to various

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statements. The government will introduce the repeal bill. We will

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debate that endlessly. What I disagree with Nick on is the need to

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have a vote on invoking article 50. We in Parliament decided by a

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majority of six to one to give the power to the British people. We

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effectively delegated that decision to the British people. There was a

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strong argument, there was a record turnout and people decided to leave

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the European Union. The only consequence of that is to invoke

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article 50. I cannot see the point in having a

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vote on Article 50 because it is perfectly clear what the British

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people want to say. Article 50 is like a stopwatch. It is just a

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mechanism. We want to vote on what the substantive plan to leave the EU

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is. What if it is voted down? We will have to go back to the drawing

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board. Here is the crucial thing... What is not legal or workable about

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leaving the single market? I met thousands of Brexit voters in

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Sheffield. Lots of Brexit voters said they wanted it because of

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immigration or they did not like this all like that. Not a single

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voter who voted Brexit who I met, I agree it is not a scientific sample,

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they did not say we want to stop British exporters from their

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untrammelled access to our largest markets in Europe. No one said that

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and no one wants that but apparently if you listen to David Davis and

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Liam Fox, that is what they want to do. I would argue they don't have a

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to do that. They do not have a mandate to inflict economic self

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harm. Are you saying people did not know that was on the table to leave

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the single market? It was not even debated. The Brexiteers did not even

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to -- debate amongst themselves. We have put together what some of the

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people said at the time. The British public would be voting to leave the

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EU and leave the single market. Should we come out of the single

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market? I think that would almost certainly be the case. Do you want

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to stay inside the single market? No, we should be outside of the

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single market. I said should we stay in the single market and he said No.

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He is right. Absolutely. We would be out of the single market, that is

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the reality. We would be quitting the single market. Britain did know.

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If you voted to leave the EU it means we would leave the single

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market. There is a huge difference between cobbling together clips of

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thousands of minutes of debate and what the Brexit campaign said to the

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British people. They said most prominently you will get 350 million

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quid for the NHS every week. They said 80 million Turks might come

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here soon. They absolutely did not say with one voice that they believe

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leaving the European Union would mean leaving the customs union and

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the single market. I think it is pretty clear that the senior

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politicians on the Leave side said we would leave the single market. To

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take Nick Clegg's point that that was not in some people's mind the

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focal point of the campaign, do you accept that people do not realise it

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would mean coming out of the single market? I completely disagree. It is

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not just those quotes, as powerful as they were. Nick and I both served

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the government, mine in a very junior capacity. I remember that

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David Cameron wanted to be able to get control of immigration. In

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particular, there was a large public disaffection of the hundreds of

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thousands of people who had come from Eastern Europe and were allowed

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completely free access to the United Kingdom and they felt they had not

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had a say about it. The first thing we try to do is we tried to look at

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the existing rules of the single market and see if we could control

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it. The next proposition was that David Cameron tried to renegotiate

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in order to control immigration. He made some progress but broadly the

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British people did not feel he succeeded. We then had a referendum

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where essentially the argument was on the one side from Brexit we

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should be able to take back control and principally take back control of

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our borders and laws. And on the other side, the Remain side made the

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argument there would be a significant economic cost to this. I

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was a reluctant Remain. I had sympathy but the economics trumped

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it. You cannot disentangle being a member of the EU with being a member

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of the single market. Free movement and mass migration was the thing

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that turbo-charged this debate. That is true, isn't it? It is not true.

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There are countries who are not members of the European Union and do

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have full participation in the single market and have greater

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powers. Which countries have complete curbs on migration? Not

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complete curbs. The Norwegians do not exercise the powers in full but

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they retain greater powers about who comes in. Do you accept that if we

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become like Norway we would not have left the EU. We would still be under

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the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, we would have to

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accept some freedom of movement because it is such a cornerstone of

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the EU and therefore we would be defying the will of the people who

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voted to leave? I have never accepted the argument

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that there is some immutable, biblical link between membership of

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the single market and the rules of freedom of movement. That's

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certainly not what anybody says, they say that is an absolute

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cornerstone. I do not believe that is the case and there are plenty of

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European countries under a great deal of pressure about freedom of

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movement and would, in my view, entertain a Europe-wide solution.

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They would not do it Turing the negotiation with David Cameron.

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First of all it has happened which has delivered a big shock. What you

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cannot navigate your way around is to say that you are going to have

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access to a marketplace of rules and not abide by those rules. Leaving

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the single market, if you don't leave the single market, you don't

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believe the EU? You do, there are countries in the single market that

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are not members of the EU, that already exists. It is not just

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remoaners, as they are called, it is the split within government as well,

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it is not easy just to point the finger at Nick Clegg or Ed Miliband

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and say they cannot accept the result. These debates going on at

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the heart of government at Cabinet level is blow as far as I can see

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the Prime Minister has set out a clear position accepting the will of

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the British people, that they want to control and have the best

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possible economic deal. If it was possible to change the single market

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rules, we would have done it before. We desperately wanted to be able to

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do it and we failed. His point is the referendum has happened now.

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David Cameron kept telling them I'm going to win, it is no problem, they

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did not feel any pressure. First of all it is one of the four

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fundamental principles of the single market alongside free movement of

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labour, goods and services, secondly, Angela Merkel, from her

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particular background, is very attached to free movement. She was a

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child of Eastern Europe. There was no sign, she was clear to the Prime

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Minister, she was not going to concede on this. I can't see that

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even with this massive shock they are going to allow Britain to have

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its own sweetheart deal. Let me point to one thing, the Austrian

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Italian border, there is now barbed wire fencing, right? So freedom of

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movement is already being kept physically by countries. Not within

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EU citizens. Hang on, they are putting border checks to the heart

:17:42.:17:45.

of the European Union. Things have moved on. I personally think if

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Theresa May was smart about it she could encourage other European

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countries to introduce an emergency brake in effect across the whole of

:17:54.:17:56.

Europe in exchange for a sensible approach from Britain for continued

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access. You know that is a separate point, we already have border

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controls in the United Kingdom and those border controls are about

:18:04.:18:07.

re-establishing border controls. They are not about limiting the

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number of people from other countries coming in. And that's the

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rub. People feel that hundreds of thousands of people came in, they

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had no way of controlling it and they never gave consent to it.

:18:18.:18:24.

Finally yes or no, if the plan for a second referendum and the head,

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which looks unlikely, and the country voted it down, would we

:18:29.:18:33.

still be in the EU? Gosh, that's a legally complex things. Isn't that

:18:34.:18:38.

what you are trying for? I want accountability for the decisions the

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government takes about how we leave the European Union, not the

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principle that we are going to. We were not given and we still have not

:18:45.:18:48.

been given a detailed depiction of what Brexit actually looks like in

:18:49.:18:50.

practice. Thank you. Last night saw the third and final

:18:51.:18:52.

TV debate between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton,

:18:53.:18:55.

ahead of next month's election that will see one of them becoming

:18:56.:18:57.

the next US president. It's been an ugly contest so far,

:18:58.:19:00.

and things didn't get any nicer when the candidates met in Las

:19:01.:19:04.

Vegas. We have to keep the drugs

:19:05.:19:07.

out of our country. Right now we getting the drugs,

:19:08.:19:14.

they are getting the cash. But we have some bad hombres here

:19:15.:19:17.

and we are going to get them out. I don't want to be sending

:19:18.:19:21.

parents away from children. I don't want to see the deportation

:19:22.:19:27.

force that Donald has talked about. If we got along well

:19:28.:19:31.

that would be good. If Russia and the United States got

:19:32.:19:38.

along well and went after Isis, It's pretty clear you won't admit

:19:39.:19:41.

that the Russians have engaged in cyber attacks

:19:42.:19:48.

against the United States of America, that you encouraged

:19:49.:19:52.

espionage against our people. Those stories are all totally false,

:19:53.:19:58.

I have to say that. And I didn't even apologise

:19:59.:20:02.

to my wife, who is sitting right We asked Bernie Sanders

:20:03.:20:05.

who he is supporting for president, and he has said, as he

:20:06.:20:09.

has campaigned for me around the country,

:20:10.:20:11.

you are the most dangerous person to run for president

:20:12.:20:14.

in the modern history of America. That you will absolutely accept

:20:15.:20:16.

the result of this election. We're joined now by the pollster

:20:17.:20:20.

and Conservative peer Andrew Cooper. Welcome to the programme. As it

:20:21.:20:38.

stands now, take us through the polls, particularly swing states,

:20:39.:20:41.

because it is all about the electoral college and who reaches

:20:42.:20:44.

the right number or gets within spitting distance and cannot be

:20:45.:20:48.

caught. It's Hillary Clinton's now, isn't it? If we believe the polls,

:20:49.:20:55.

yes. She has led 82 days in a row in the polls and in the past two or

:20:56.:21:00.

three we've seen a big movement in her direction in key battle ground

:21:01.:21:04.

states. Not only looking at the headline numbers, locking down some

:21:05.:21:08.

of the classic swing states like Florida and North Carolina, but

:21:09.:21:12.

starting to expand her map into states the Democrats would never

:21:13.:21:17.

have dreamt of being competitive in, like Utah, Texas, Arizona. However,

:21:18.:21:24.

we just lived through a referendum where the polls were wrong and they

:21:25.:21:27.

don't have a brilliant record in America, so there is a nagging

:21:28.:21:31.

doubt. You think there are still that many shied from voters, if

:21:32.:21:34.

that's not a contradiction in terms, who could come out at this stage --

:21:35.:21:42.

shy Trump voters. One of the challenges for pollsters is

:21:43.:21:45.

estimating which people will actually vote. In America they based

:21:46.:21:49.

on past voting behaviour. One of the things that happened in our

:21:50.:21:52.

referendum was that 2.8 million people who had not voted in the

:21:53.:21:56.

general election voted to leave. If, in America, there is a huge bubble

:21:57.:22:03.

of basically angry old white men in rust belt states who don't usually

:22:04.:22:06.

ever vote and are massively whited out of the public data, and the

:22:07.:22:14.

polls only need to be wrong by 3.5%, and what looks like a landslide

:22:15.:22:18.

could be much more competitive. Did you watch? It was the middle of the

:22:19.:22:24.

night, wasn't it? I'm still fascinating by all these hand

:22:25.:22:28.

movements. You'd have to ask him. But I don't think you will. Watching

:22:29.:22:32.

the debate from here, the whole debate, the presidential campaign,

:22:33.:22:36.

what's your view now that we are this close to the poll itself.

:22:37.:22:43.

Clinton has been a very unpopular candidate and we've seen a very

:22:44.:22:46.

divided nation. What are your observations? Well American politics

:22:47.:22:52.

tends to set trends which then wash across the Atlantic and so I'm

:22:53.:22:57.

afraid, incongruous I'd arrive is that the evermore nasty sort of

:22:58.:23:03.

personal character assassination which has distinguished this

:23:04.:23:07.

campaign, unless we do something actively to avoid it will become

:23:08.:23:10.

increasingly the kind of character of elections on this side of the

:23:11.:23:15.

Atlantic. Why? Donald Trump is something of a phenomenon, good or

:23:16.:23:18.

bad depending on your viewpoint, but he is not someone you can compare

:23:19.:23:22.

with politicians here. Of course not. In that sense he might be a

:23:23.:23:27.

one-off. I've been an MP for 11 years and in politics for a bit

:23:28.:23:31.

longer and even I have seen here in the UK that there has been a trend

:23:32.:23:35.

towards playing the man or the woman rather than the ball which has got

:23:36.:23:40.

ever more pronounced. Maybe because it is effective, you know, slapping

:23:41.:23:44.

people off for who they are, what they look like, the sound of their

:23:45.:23:50.

voice, might resonate more than having a pointy-headed discussion

:23:51.:23:54.

about local finance. For whatever reason it is increasing and it does

:23:55.:23:58.

make politics evermore vituperative in tone. I hope we can avoid that. I

:23:59.:24:05.

think the tone is massively important in life generally. People

:24:06.:24:08.

don't actually listen to every syllable and consonant of what

:24:09.:24:11.

politicians say but they pick up total. Do the debates make a

:24:12.:24:14.

difference? They have done in the past. The history of US elections,

:24:15.:24:21.

over the last four weeks there is almost no movement. No challenger

:24:22.:24:24.

has ever close the gap of over 4% in the last move. Inasmuch as the

:24:25.:24:31.

voters watch these things, the basic characteristics of these people was

:24:32.:24:35.

priced into it a long time ago. The fact that Donald Trump is a horrible

:24:36.:24:39.

man who says horrible things was factored in a long time ago for

:24:40.:24:44.

many. In a way the impact he felt was after the tapes of him making

:24:45.:24:48.

those lewd comments about women and also the fact that the Republican

:24:49.:24:52.

party seems to have cut him loose. In a sense, the worry about that is

:24:53.:24:56.

does that deliver his message for him? His message is I'm not like

:24:57.:25:00.

them, I'm not a normal politician. It's similar to the referendum, the

:25:01.:25:05.

uprising against the experts, against the establishment. A

:25:06.:25:09.

parallel in terms of the worry of the carry-over to British politics

:25:10.:25:14.

is that the business and depth of the division, that it is such a

:25:15.:25:17.

deeply divided country, the enmity, the fact that the two sides can find

:25:18.:25:21.

it impossible to see the world from the other's point of view. Isn't

:25:22.:25:24.

that the problem, polarising politics in the way these two have

:25:25.:25:29.

is the issue, isn't it, rather than saying it is all about an uprising

:25:30.:25:32.

against the establishment and poor old establishment. This polarisation

:25:33.:25:38.

towards populist extremes on both right and left, not just an American

:25:39.:25:47.

phenomenon, from Podemos to Victor Orban, UC populism right across

:25:48.:25:52.

Europe. What I have tried to write a book about is how does the moderate

:25:53.:25:57.

sentiment make itself heard when it is being pulled from one extreme to

:25:58.:26:00.

the other. I think it's a terrifically important challenge for

:26:01.:26:04.

us to grapple with. Because if you can't make moderate politics are

:26:05.:26:08.

attractive and compelling and emotionally, telling again, we are

:26:09.:26:12.

constantly going to be hijacked by a roving cast of populists on both

:26:13.:26:16.

right and left. Who's going to win? Hillary Clinton. That's good, has

:26:17.:26:22.

least you manage to come out and firmly say one way and not the

:26:23.:26:24.

other. Now, earlier this week our guest

:26:25.:26:25.

of the day, Nick Clegg, who you may by this point have

:26:26.:26:28.

realised supported the UK's membership of the EU,

:26:29.:26:30.

gave a speech warning food prices Nick Clegg says that unless we stay

:26:31.:26:33.

within the single market, the price of items like chocolate,

:26:34.:26:37.

cheese and wine Well, at the moment,

:26:38.:26:39.

being within the single market means we don't pay any tariffs on the food

:26:40.:26:52.

we import from the EU. Leaving the single market could lead

:26:53.:26:56.

to charges being slapped onto imported EU food,

:26:57.:26:58.

increasing prices. What's more, Mr Clegg believes

:26:59.:26:59.

Brexit could lead to a shortage of workers in the food industry,

:27:00.:27:02.

which could be another reason And with the value of the pound

:27:03.:27:05.

falling, buying anything from aboard including

:27:06.:27:12.

food will cost us more. "Rubbish", shout his critics,

:27:13.:27:15.

who say leaving the EU At the moment the EU enforces large

:27:16.:27:18.

tariffs for all food products coming in from outside the EU,

:27:19.:27:26.

once we leave we could get rid of all these which would lead

:27:27.:27:29.

to cheaper imports. We could also cut better trade deals

:27:30.:27:32.

with the rest of the world Finally, they argue,

:27:33.:27:38.

whilst the value of the pound is currently going down,

:27:39.:27:44.

in the medium term it could recover, increasing our purchasing

:27:45.:27:47.

power, lowering prices. Joining me now is Ryan Bourne who's

:27:48.:27:49.

head of public policy at the Institute of Economic

:27:50.:27:51.

Affairs. Increased tariffs, a weak pound,

:27:52.:27:59.

rising fuel costs, Nick Clegg is right, isn't he, too one about the

:28:00.:28:05.

rising cost of food? Brexit was a long-term constitutional decision of

:28:06.:28:08.

course. I would argue that in the long term what will determine food

:28:09.:28:12.

prices in this country are the structural factors underlying the

:28:13.:28:17.

market. I read Nick Clegg's peace. And the key takeaway I took from it

:28:18.:28:21.

is that food prices will be higher if we make extraordinarily bad

:28:22.:28:26.

political decisions. If we decide to adopt the EU Common external tariff

:28:27.:28:30.

and apply that to the EU as well as maintaining the current levels to

:28:31.:28:33.

the rest of the world, and if we prevent farmers from importing the

:28:34.:28:37.

labour that they need in order to pick crops and things. And I just

:28:38.:28:41.

don't think that we'd do that. I think that the liberal case is

:28:42.:28:46.

actually to leave the EU, abolish the protectionism, abolish the

:28:47.:28:49.

agricultural protectionism, moved towards a more dynamic, productive

:28:50.:28:53.

agricultural sector, and allow farmers the workers they need and

:28:54.:28:56.

that's the sensible thing. You are looking at the worst case scenario?

:28:57.:29:01.

Firstly I am just taking what Liam Fox said at the WTO on the 27th of

:29:02.:29:07.

September at face value. He said when the United Kingdom leaves the

:29:08.:29:13.

European Union so the United Kingdom becomes a self standing member of

:29:14.:29:17.

the WTO, you said in terms, we will keep what they call in the jargon

:29:18.:29:21.

the schedule of commitments, all the thousands of tariffs we currently

:29:22.:29:26.

have. I'm just simply translating into numbers what he said. There are

:29:27.:29:29.

other decisions that could offset some of the things Liam Fox says

:29:30.:29:33.

would happen. It's terrifically important, this. What he's saying is

:29:34.:29:37.

that the United Kingdom unilaterally will maintain the wall of tariffs

:29:38.:29:42.

that we multilaterally are part of in the European Union. By the way,

:29:43.:29:46.

much though I'm sure Ryan might be able to explain what he's saying as

:29:47.:29:49.

an economic model, there is no earthly way that any British

:29:50.:29:53.

government is ever going to simply withdraw tariffs on manufacturing

:29:54.:29:58.

and agricultural products, it would decimate British manufacturing and

:29:59.:30:00.

agriculture overnight. No Conservative government would ever

:30:01.:30:05.

do it. And by the way it's totally inconsistent to say we'll get rid of

:30:06.:30:08.

the tariffs unilaterally and then negotiate new trade deals with

:30:09.:30:11.

countries around the world. I didn't say that. We have no negotiating

:30:12.:30:13.

capital left. Whatever happens in the long term

:30:14.:30:21.

and you did start your introduction by saying in the long term, but you

:30:22.:30:26.

admit food prices could go up, imports will be more expensive, they

:30:27.:30:30.

will be more expensive from the EU. There is a sort of a mission that

:30:31.:30:36.

will happen in the short term? It depends on the decisions we make. I

:30:37.:30:42.

remember strongly in the referendum campaign a tweet from Paddy Ashdown

:30:43.:30:46.

saying the secret is out, we will get cheap food flooding the country

:30:47.:30:52.

as a result of Brexit. We will become a member of the WTA. There is

:30:53.:30:55.

no reason why we have to maintain that current level of commitment.

:30:56.:31:00.

And while we do have to apply the same tariffs to every country around

:31:01.:31:04.

the world, I think the liberal case that you should be making is why

:31:05.:31:09.

don't we abolish these tariffs? If you are a free marketeer then you

:31:10.:31:13.

could do these things with countries outside the EU? Of course I don't

:31:14.:31:19.

dispute Ryan's ideological case. In an ideal world you would have lower

:31:20.:31:25.

taxes and tariffs. Is that achievable? I don't think there is a

:31:26.:31:29.

remit possibility that any British government in their right mind will

:31:30.:31:32.

pull the rug out from under the feet of British farmers. You would

:31:33.:31:43.

basically overnight expose British manufacturing to a degree of

:31:44.:31:46.

low-cost competition they could not withstand from one moment to the

:31:47.:31:50.

next. It is not politically realistic to say to hell with it.

:31:51.:31:55.

And you have to look at the real politic here before you put forward

:31:56.:32:01.

your economic case, post-Brexit, because otherwise industries will

:32:02.:32:05.

suffer and could suffer and the consumer will pay the price. If

:32:06.:32:10.

there will be curbs on migration which there will be, that could

:32:11.:32:15.

cause problems in the food industry? I have been suggesting that the

:32:16.:32:19.

British government should come out and guarantee the rights of workers

:32:20.:32:24.

here. I think there would be a replacement scheme to something like

:32:25.:32:27.

the seasonal agricultural workers scheme. There is a precedent for a

:32:28.:32:32.

liberalisation of the agricultural sector. New Zealand had a much

:32:33.:32:36.

bigger agricultural sector in the 1980s. They removed all subsidies

:32:37.:32:41.

over a five-year period. Yes, the industry did change. Some farms were

:32:42.:32:46.

eliminated entirely. Fund grew bigger and some diversify into new

:32:47.:32:52.

products and New Zealand is held up as a model. Could that happen in the

:32:53.:32:57.

UK? I think politicians should be making the case for this. It does

:32:58.:33:01.

surprise me that liberals are making this case for protection? Unlike

:33:02.:33:08.

most people in British politics I worked as an EU trade negotiator.

:33:09.:33:12.

You have to have some bargaining chips you can throw onto the table

:33:13.:33:14.

to get the best deal possible. If you unilaterally decide yourself and

:33:15.:33:23.

go straight to tariffs on all of our protected sectors now, there is no

:33:24.:33:27.

incentive for any other country whether it is America, China or

:33:28.:33:30.

India to give us any concessions because we would have thrown away

:33:31.:33:34.

all the negotiating chips at the outset. I think Liam Fox was right

:33:35.:33:39.

to say he would keep the European commitments in the first instance

:33:40.:33:43.

but we have to understand what the implications mean. It does mean

:33:44.:33:48.

prices will go up for food. Ultimately, it is consumers who will

:33:49.:33:51.

pay the costs. If other countries want to raise prices and have less

:33:52.:33:55.

reductive industry and agriculture as a result, that is up for them,

:33:56.:33:59.

but the British government should be setting out what is best for Britain

:34:00.:34:03.

and not worrying what the rest of the world will do. Thank you.

:34:04.:34:06.

The Scottish government has this morning published a draft bill

:34:07.:34:08.

setting out plans for a second independence referendum.

:34:09.:34:10.

The First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, argues that the Brexit vote

:34:11.:34:12.

means her government has a mandate to seek another vote,

:34:13.:34:15.

although at this stage the plans are only being put

:34:16.:34:17.

Our Scotland editor Sarah Smith is in Edinburgh.

:34:18.:34:23.

Sarah Smith, is there much fanfare accompanying this today? Well, it is

:34:24.:34:30.

remarkably low-key actually. They have published the draft bill online

:34:31.:34:34.

and there has been a statement from a government minister but the First

:34:35.:34:39.

Minister Nicola Sturgeon is not giving a big press conference. They

:34:40.:34:43.

had a fairly huge event at their party conference at the weekend when

:34:44.:34:46.

Nicola Sturgeon announced her plans to publish this and she got a

:34:47.:34:50.

rapturous response from the SNP delegates who were in the hole at

:34:51.:35:03.

the time. Will this be enough to satisfy her supporters? This is just

:35:04.:35:05.

the legislative roasters. It does not mean we will necessarily see

:35:06.:35:07.

another independent referendum taking place soon? It does not mean

:35:08.:35:10.

there will be one soon and there is no date for this consultation. The

:35:11.:35:14.

First Minister thinks Scotland does have the right to take another

:35:15.:35:17.

decision about independence before the UK leave the EU. But this is not

:35:18.:35:24.

just aimed at her supporters and keeping them happy, that there is

:35:25.:35:28.

the prospect of another referendum in the offing, this is aimed

:35:29.:35:32.

squarely at the Prime Minister. Nicola Sturgeon will meet Theresa

:35:33.:35:35.

May on Monday. They will have their first serious talks on how the

:35:36.:35:40.

Scottish Government will be involved in Brexit negotiations. Nicola

:35:41.:35:43.

Sturgeon is worried that the Prime Minister will not make good on her

:35:44.:35:46.

promises to keep the Scottish Government fully engaged. So she has

:35:47.:35:50.

created a bargaining chip. She can say unless you give us some of what

:35:51.:35:55.

we want, I have the prospect of another referendum on Scottish

:35:56.:35:58.

independence in my back pocket. She wants more devolved powers for the

:35:59.:36:01.

Scottish Government and if she doesn't get them she can say well I

:36:02.:36:05.

will be forced to go to another referendum. We have also heard about

:36:06.:36:10.

plans to change Scottish constituencies. Can you bring us

:36:11.:36:17.

up-to-date? The boundary -- the boundary commission has released

:36:18.:36:24.

their plans. Seats will be reduced from 5019 53. The seat of Edinburgh

:36:25.:36:29.

South will disappear and be hived off into neighbouring seats. That

:36:30.:36:33.

really matters because that is the only Labour constituency in Scotland

:36:34.:36:36.

at the moment where Ian Murray is the MP. There is only one Lib Dem MP

:36:37.:36:43.

and he represents all clear Shetland and that will be untouched and David

:36:44.:36:48.

Mundell's seat will remain largely unchanged. There might not be any

:36:49.:36:54.

Labour constituency after the election in 2020. Of course, it does

:36:55.:37:00.

not mean they cannot win another seat somewhere else but the one they

:37:01.:37:03.

have at the moment will vanish. Thank you.

:37:04.:37:05.

Now, it's been 30 years since we stopped using these -

:37:06.:37:08.

yes it's the old navy blue passport, used by British travellers

:37:09.:37:10.

until 1988 when they began to be replaced with the burgundy number

:37:11.:37:13.

which is standard across most of the EU.

:37:14.:37:15.

With Britain now heading for Brexit, there have been calls from some

:37:16.:37:18.

politicians for the old-style passport to be bought back

:37:19.:37:20.

as a symbol of the country regaining sovereignty.

:37:21.:37:23.

9am, the passport office in London's Victoria,

:37:24.:37:30.

Are you applying for a new passport?

:37:31.:37:38.

If you knew you were going to get a dark blue one, would it be

:37:39.:37:43.

I don't know what a dark blue one is.

:37:44.:37:46.

It's what the old British passport used to be like.

:37:47.:37:48.

And some people are campaigning for us to go back to the dark blue.

:37:49.:37:53.

What's the difference with the colours?

:37:54.:37:55.

I don't know, doesn't really make a difference to me.

:37:56.:37:58.

I think to some people it would be a symbol that we are an independent

:37:59.:38:01.

nation again, that we are not in the EU any more.

:38:02.:38:04.

I'd have no issue with it going back to blue, I'd be quite happy,

:38:05.:38:08.

particularly by voting for Brexit myself as a voter.

:38:09.:38:11.

Anyone like to bring back the blue passport?

:38:12.:38:14.

Obviously not this size, that would be ridiculous, wouldn't it?

:38:15.:38:20.

The size of our real passports is controlled strictly

:38:21.:38:22.

The reason they are burgundy is because of EU law.

:38:23.:38:29.

And so if the UK unilaterally changes the colour of its passports

:38:30.:38:32.

while it's still in the EU, then it runs the risk

:38:33.:38:34.

of being hauled in front of the European Court of Justice.

:38:35.:38:37.

Do you care about the colour of your passport?

:38:38.:38:39.

Yeah, and you're stuck with it because you're

:38:40.:38:44.

Would you rather have one of those or one

:38:45.:38:48.

The Home Office says it's done some work on options for post-Brexit

:38:49.:38:57.

passports, but they've made no decisions about

:38:58.:38:59.

It's only a colour difference.

:39:00.:39:01.

Are you colour-blind when it comes to passports?

:39:02.:39:06.

Do you care what colour your passport is?

:39:07.:39:15.

There is an opportunity to look at the design of British passports

:39:16.:39:26.

coming up in the near future because the contract to provide them

:39:27.:39:29.

But a red passport is all right for me as well.

:39:30.:39:39.

I'll take a pink passport if you are going to give me one.

:39:40.:39:44.

Do you really remember having a dark blue passport?

:39:45.:39:47.

I can't remember whether I do or not.

:39:48.:39:51.

I think my passport has always been red.

:39:52.:39:53.

And what about people like me who don't need a new passport

:39:54.:39:56.

Although I've spoken to an MP whois said he'd lose his down the sofa

:39:57.:40:00.

to get a new blue one, if there are new blue ones.

:40:01.:40:09.

And I should just say if there is a new one it will not have the

:40:10.:40:14.

European Union of course emblazoned on the top.

:40:15.:40:16.

And we're joined now by the Conservative Andrew Rosindell,

:40:17.:40:18.

he's one of a number of MPs backing a campaign to bring back

:40:19.:40:21.

We would have a job getting it in our pockets! I like the colour. What

:40:22.:40:34.

is in a colour? Is it really that important? Absolutely. It is about

:40:35.:40:39.

national identity. It is about showing we are British, Britain is

:40:40.:40:44.

back. When we travel abroad, instead of having this run-of-the-mill

:40:45.:40:48.

standard EU passport we have our own British passport again. The one

:40:49.:40:51.

thing that matters to British people, and that was shown in the

:40:52.:40:55.

referendum, they feel they are losing their identity and losing

:40:56.:41:07.

their sovereignty. The one thing you can do easily go back to the Royal

:41:08.:41:10.

blue British passport and I think it will be popular among British

:41:11.:41:13.

people. Will you see it as they symbol of independence? Of course

:41:14.:41:15.

not. Andrew is right that identity is important that if it was as

:41:16.:41:18.

simple as changing the colour I think life would be simpler.

:41:19.:41:22.

Personally, I cannot get excited about whether it is burgundy or

:41:23.:41:27.

blue. This is utterly meaningless to millions of young voters who have

:41:28.:41:31.

never known anything other than a burgundy passport. What I find

:41:32.:41:35.

interesting about this bait is there is a strand of thinking which has a

:41:36.:41:39.

very nostalgic wish to turn the clock back which is very difficult

:41:40.:41:43.

for young people. There were a couple of people on that clip you

:41:44.:41:46.

did not know there was a blue one before. I think we need to move on

:41:47.:41:50.

and not constantly think that the only way you can be confident about

:41:51.:41:54.

your identity is about turning the clock back. How about turning it

:41:55.:42:04.

forward? Are you turning the clock back? Quite opposite. We are

:42:05.:42:06.

rekindling things we have lost. Isn't that turning the clock back?

:42:07.:42:10.

Not at all. You only appreciate things when you have lost them. All

:42:11.:42:17.

generations... All generations? The people we spoke to were not

:42:18.:42:23.

interested. There was an older lady. Maybe people do forget. The more you

:42:24.:42:27.

talk to people, the more people are keen to see our British traditions

:42:28.:42:31.

and British identity cherished and upheld and not discarded under the

:42:32.:42:35.

banner of the European Union. Are you going to go forward with these

:42:36.:42:41.

plans before we leave the EU? It is a good question. I have asked the

:42:42.:42:45.

government to look into the legalities of this. Frankly, it is

:42:46.:42:49.

ludicrous to get Brussels opinion. Would you like to go back to weights

:42:50.:42:57.

and measures -- imperial weights and measures? We are talking about

:42:58.:43:00.

passports. I want the British people to decide what is best for our

:43:01.:43:04.

country. We should make those decisions. But that is a classic

:43:05.:43:08.

example of what people will use do from the past, it was hours, it was

:43:09.:43:14.

imperial. Wouldn't you want to go further? If we think that is a good

:43:15.:43:20.

thing for Britain then so be it. I am asking what you think. I would

:43:21.:43:28.

certainly think about that. I think it is worth considering. Today, I

:43:29.:43:32.

want to talk about passports. I think if you asked most British

:43:33.:43:35.

people, although some people don't care and I accept that, if we say

:43:36.:43:40.

should we have our own British passport or stick with the European

:43:41.:43:45.

format, most people would say we should go for British. Do you want

:43:46.:43:52.

to try and pursue this ahead of leaving the EU? Guest-macro. It is a

:43:53.:43:58.

symbolic gesture. But it does break the EU law. The government doesn't

:43:59.:44:02.

seem to be showing any appetite for this at all. The very least they

:44:03.:44:07.

could do is publish their design and plan for what we will have

:44:08.:44:11.

eventually. Clearly, when we leave the EU, if we have to wait that long

:44:12.:44:15.

to bring our British passport back, they should be thinking about what

:44:16.:44:21.

type of design. It does not just affect the United Kingdom. The Isle

:44:22.:44:25.

of Man and the Channel Islands use the British passport as well and

:44:26.:44:29.

they are not in the EU. But they are numbered with an EU passport even

:44:30.:44:34.

though they are not in the EU. International rules guide the size

:44:35.:44:41.

of the passport but beyond that, the material, the colour and wording

:44:42.:44:43.

would be free for us to choose. Would you like to see some

:44:44.:44:48.

impressions come out in the future? I'm afraid I don't tie myself up in

:44:49.:44:53.

knots with the future colour of the passport. Clearly, it will change so

:44:54.:44:58.

we have to have different designs. If Andrew wants to campaign for a

:44:59.:45:01.

particular colour, maybe someone else wants green. We can come up

:45:02.:45:06.

with aesthetic schemes. My worry about this is this is a really big

:45:07.:45:09.

moment of change in our country and I think for younger voters, the vast

:45:10.:45:13.

majority of whom did not want us to leave the European Union, I think

:45:14.:45:16.

they would want us to talk that stuff which is about their future,

:45:17.:45:23.

not hankering for a past which, as I said I am pretty agnostic about the

:45:24.:45:26.

colour of my passport in my pocket, for them, it is not top of their

:45:27.:45:28.

priorities. This is my point, it is something we

:45:29.:45:37.

can sort out quickly. We are going back to doing things the British

:45:38.:45:43.

way. You do want to go back? Yes, restore the colour, but let's do it

:45:44.:45:47.

quickly, not fat around. And what a great symbol that would be to

:45:48.:45:50.

everybody. Darren Deed in 30 years' time younger people would be used to

:45:51.:45:54.

that country -- guaranteed. What about stamps in the passport, would

:45:55.:45:58.

you like to see them come back with yellow if there is a need for it, a

:45:59.:46:00.

practical use. I'm not sure that's something we can

:46:01.:46:07.

decide today. I don't think so, certainly not with countries that we

:46:08.:46:11.

don't have visas with, but that's another topic altogether. I'm

:46:12.:46:16.

talking about the symbolic importance of restoring our British

:46:17.:46:20.

passport. You will no doubt be campaigning in the Home Office for

:46:21.:46:21.

all of these changes. Now, the Liberal Democrats

:46:22.:46:23.

and Labour have been attacking each other in the House of Lords this

:46:24.:46:25.

week over the Labour has attacked the bill but did

:46:26.:46:42.

not back a Lib Dem attempt to block certain parts of it.

:46:43.:46:46.

Here's the Lib Dems' Brian Paddick speaking in the Lords yesterday.

:46:47.:46:49.

Telephone operators already keep a record of the details of every

:46:50.:46:51.

phone call made and every text message sent.

:46:52.:46:54.

Internet service providers are being forced by this bill

:46:55.:46:56.

to keep a record of every website you and I and everyone else in this

:46:57.:47:03.

country has visited over the previous 12 months.

:47:04.:47:06.

A provision this house agreed to on Monday

:47:07.:47:09.

in a division when they rejected the Liberal Democrat

:47:10.:47:11.

We're joined now by Angela Smith, Baroness Basildon, leader of Labour

:47:12.:47:18.

Nick Clegg, what is so wrong with this bill now? This aspect of it,

:47:19.:47:31.

Internet connection records is, in my view, they called it something

:47:32.:47:39.

different, but it was always there. It basically is a sort of Dragnet

:47:40.:47:42.

approach to the retention of particular forms of data. It doesn't

:47:43.:47:48.

include the content at it can build up a very detailed picture of

:47:49.:47:52.

peoples usage it's not really done anywhere else. The Danes did it and

:47:53.:47:57.

scrapped it. In my view it is disproportionate. Because you'd have

:47:58.:48:01.

had access to those high security briefings, you will also know, they

:48:02.:48:05.

will have presented to you how important it is that security

:48:06.:48:08.

services have all the tools at their disposal, and yet you still feel it

:48:09.:48:15.

is disproportionate? This is awful jargon, about how big you need to

:48:16.:48:19.

create the haystack to look for the needle, and who retains it, is it

:48:20.:48:23.

the government, GCHQ or in this case the communications operators

:48:24.:48:26.

themselves. In my view there is very little evidence that this huge

:48:27.:48:31.

retention of massive amounts of data in a very unwieldy way is the best

:48:32.:48:35.

way to go after the needles. So why are you siding with the

:48:36.:48:39.

Conservatives over this very illiberal bill? Your Shadow Cabinet

:48:40.:48:42.

Bill Diane Abbott described it as Draconian. I think it was when it

:48:43.:48:46.

was first introduced into the House of Commons. It was only after we got

:48:47.:48:51.

certain checks and balances that we voted it. On this particular issue,

:48:52.:48:57.

I wish you'd shown a bit longer, you would have seen two very senior

:48:58.:49:00.

Liberal Democrats, including the former leader, criticising that

:49:01.:49:07.

approach and voting against it. In fact Brian Pavlik had to withdraw

:49:08.:49:12.

because one his own side did not support him. There have been

:49:13.:49:21.

changes. Internet collection of information, we talking about

:49:22.:49:24.

serious organised crime, how do they communicate? Via the Internet. But

:49:25.:49:28.

we have checks and balances that were not there before, basically

:49:29.:49:31.

both the Home Secretary and the judicial commission would have to

:49:32.:49:35.

sign this off as being justified and proportionate and necessary. So

:49:36.:49:38.

you've got a political and a judge, a double lock, as it were, on

:49:39.:49:43.

whether this is appropriate. Because what you need to do is actually

:49:44.:49:45.

dispense of the information you don't need and get to what you do.

:49:46.:49:51.

The independent commission an independent reviewer of this

:49:52.:49:53.

legislation said this is necessary. There would be a judicial check.

:49:54.:49:58.

What more do you want? Angela is absolutely right. I think the

:49:59.:50:05.

Liberal Democrats have sat on the sidelines and whinged about the

:50:06.:50:09.

bill, meanwhile our key people, our brightest and best in both houses,

:50:10.:50:12.

has said this bill needs checks and balances and changes. I have

:50:13.:50:17.

actually lived with this bill for many years. You are not the only

:50:18.:50:22.

one. The procedural decision making changes, of course it will. It gets

:50:23.:50:30.

quite technical. But look, when you ask the government what do

:50:31.:50:32.

interconnection records mean, they literally mean the moment you

:50:33.:50:36.

connect onto the Internet, whether it's Google maps, whether it's on to

:50:37.:50:41.

a dodgy website, it is literally any connection. So you can imagine the

:50:42.:50:46.

vast, vast amounts of inert, useless, entirely redundant data

:50:47.:50:52.

that is being stored by, by the way, unqualified, across everybody, the

:50:53.:50:55.

whole population. These fishing expeditions to worry people. It is

:50:56.:51:00.

not fishing expeditions. That information is held and has to be

:51:01.:51:04.

kept, it is not looked at. And then if there is clear evidence that both

:51:05.:51:07.

the Home Secretary and a judge say we need to have access. Why does no

:51:08.:51:12.

other modern jurisdiction do this? Bay may well do in the future. That

:51:13.:51:18.

amount of personal data, as you probably both agree is useless in

:51:19.:51:22.

the vast majority of cases, to be held for any length of time. For a

:51:23.:51:27.

year. It is being held and if access is needed, which would mean, who's

:51:28.:51:32.

been talking to who, it may be a case, not just terrorism, it could

:51:33.:51:36.

be child abduction, child pornography, child abuse, all those

:51:37.:51:40.

areas. I think we need access on when it is justified to look at the

:51:41.:51:45.

specific records, the police and security services are able to do so

:51:46.:51:49.

for our protection. It is an age-old debate, this. Security, privacy,

:51:50.:51:55.

liberty, and how much data and of what kind do you retain on the whole

:51:56.:51:59.

population including millions of innocent people going about their

:52:00.:52:01.

business in order to go after the bad people. And no other modern

:52:02.:52:07.

jurisdiction in the developed world does this sledgehammer approach. Is

:52:08.:52:12.

this still a sledgehammer? You are retaining huge amounts of

:52:13.:52:17.

information. But it is not used unless there is some sort of

:52:18.:52:20.

judicial oversight and the Home Secretary saying yes we will pursue

:52:21.:52:24.

this. The only other modern jurisdictions that have tried to do

:52:25.:52:27.

this scrapped it because it was so unwieldy and so impractical and it

:52:28.:52:33.

did not add to the crime busting powers that you want our agencies to

:52:34.:52:38.

have. When somebody like David Anderson, the independent reviewer

:52:39.:52:41.

of this kind of legislation, investigates this and looks at it,

:52:42.:52:45.

and says is it proportionate and necessary, he says yes in some cases

:52:46.:52:51.

it is. Brian paddock had to change his view and admit part of what he

:52:52.:52:59.

said in the House of Lords the other day. We interviewed David Anderson,

:53:00.:53:03.

what do you say he said about this? He said it was a proportionate

:53:04.:53:07.

response and there is a case for doing so and that is quite clear.

:53:08.:53:10.

There is something called Olcan data. I'm fashionably amongst

:53:11.:53:16.

liberals I have always said there is a case for agencies to hold what is

:53:17.:53:21.

called bulk data. This is the stuff that comes in great pipes under the

:53:22.:53:25.

sea from other jurisdictions. This is quite different. Internet

:53:26.:53:28.

connection records is every time you click back computer under this table

:53:29.:53:32.

here, that is going to be stored on a database somewhere. It's a

:53:33.:53:37.

completely different thing. You have let Civil Liberties go? Absolutely

:53:38.:53:42.

not. The checks and balances that we have inserted in this bill would not

:53:43.:53:46.

have been there. And they are misleading people and playing a bit

:53:47.:53:50.

of a game here and I think it is a dangerous approach. You can say we

:53:51.:53:54.

are trading Civil Liberties against security, both are equally important

:53:55.:53:57.

and that's the route we have taken. Thank you.

:53:58.:53:58.

Now we sometimes bring you news of defections on this programme.

:53:59.:54:01.

We rarely hear of politicians defecting back again.

:54:02.:54:02.

And it's even rarer to to hear of them doing so within 24 hour.

:54:03.:54:06.

But that's what's happened in Swindon, where the defection

:54:07.:54:08.

of a councillor called Matthew Courtliff from Labour

:54:09.:54:10.

to the Conservatives was greeted with some pleasure by local Tories,

:54:11.:54:13.

But just hours after the announcement, Mr Courtliff said

:54:14.:54:21.

he'd changed his mind and would be staying with Labour after all.

:54:22.:54:25.

He described it as the "worst 24 hours of my life".

:54:26.:54:27.

Well, the journalist who's been covering the story, Chris Humphreys,

:54:28.:54:30.

Tell us what happened. It's been a bizarre 24 hours. We got news on

:54:31.:54:42.

Tuesday night that he was in with the council leader in a meeting and

:54:43.:54:46.

was looking to change side. There had been rumours for a few days.

:54:47.:54:50.

Within an hour there were very strong statement put out, he said he

:54:51.:54:54.

was looking forward to Theresa May Bulls leadership as a conservative,

:54:55.:54:57.

that Jeremy Corbyn had lost touch with people. He was warmly welcomed

:54:58.:55:03.

by the leader of the Council, a local Conservative MPs. Labour

:55:04.:55:06.

councillors were scathing and called it the worst thing about politics.

:55:07.:55:10.

Less than 24 hours later he said he made a terrible state and he

:55:11.:55:15.

regretted it and he wanted people to forgive him. You wonder what

:55:16.:55:19.

happened in those 24 hours, I mean, are Swindon conservatives really

:55:20.:55:24.

that bad? He is quite young, 25, the youngest on the council and I think

:55:25.:55:27.

the attention he got was quite a shock. You think he did not realise

:55:28.:55:31.

he was going to come under the spotlight in quite the way he did.

:55:32.:55:35.

But what about his Labour colleagues? They put out a statement

:55:36.:55:39.

as you said saying it was a dishonourable position and

:55:40.:55:41.

represented the worst of politics, what did they say when he came back?

:55:42.:55:46.

There is a mixture, certain more moderate Labour councillors who want

:55:47.:55:49.

to see it as a mistake and put it behind them, but there are some

:55:50.:55:54.

further to the Jeremy Corbyn side of the party who will not take kindly

:55:55.:55:57.

to his messages of support for Theresa May and criticising the

:55:58.:56:01.

leadership. And you've spoken to him, I presume, how is he feeling? I

:56:02.:56:06.

think a little raw is probably the way I'd describe it. It's probably

:56:07.:56:09.

his first encounter with the ruthlessness of front line politics

:56:10.:56:16.

even at the local level. It might take him a few weeks to come out and

:56:17.:56:20.

stand up to residents and explain himself. Ayew upset he did not go to

:56:21.:56:28.

the Liberal Democrats? He is in a traumatised state, if he wants to

:56:29.:56:31.

spend time with nice people, we'll give him a nice cup of tea, you can

:56:32.:56:35.

always join the Liberal Democrats and make it a clean sweep, a

:56:36.:56:40.

hat-trick. I presume he hasn't considered joining the Liberal

:56:41.:56:45.

Democrats? Well, we don't know. He certainly considered the

:56:46.:56:47.

Conservative Party and they said they left their door open. I'm sure

:56:48.:56:51.

the Liberal Democrats would welcome another member in Swindon. I'm sure

:56:52.:56:54.

they would. I don't know how many they've got. Do you think voters

:56:55.:57:01.

will be understanding? Certain people who were out campaigning with

:57:02.:57:04.

him when standing as a Labour candidate have been critical and

:57:05.:57:08.

said, can I have my vote back? Others have said, if we cannot trust

:57:09.:57:12.

you on this and your positions are not set in stone, how can we trust

:57:13.:57:17.

you on other issues. And when is he up for re-election? He'll be up in

:57:18.:57:21.

the general election year. So not only has he got to prove his worth

:57:22.:57:26.

to residents, he has also got to fight against the Labour performance

:57:27.:57:29.

nationally as well. Thank you very much.

:57:30.:57:31.

Now it's nearly time to bring you the answer

:57:32.:57:34.

to our quiz, first let's remind you what it's all about.

:57:35.:57:36.

Here's an exchange from Prime Minister's Questions yesterday,

:57:37.:57:38.

when Conservative MP Peter Bone was asking Thersa May

:57:39.:57:41.

Would she support the reopening of Wellingborough prison as part of

:57:42.:57:47.

this excellent programme, or would she rather just

:57:48.:57:49.

I say to my honourable friend I'm very happy to

:57:50.:57:56.

wish him a very happy birthday today, many happy returns.

:57:57.:57:59.

I hope that Mrs Bone is going to treat the

:58:00.:58:01.

Well that innuendo, intentional or not, caused

:58:02.:58:14.

But what we want to know is, what did Peter Bone actually get

:58:15.:58:21.

Was it, A, a replica Vote Leave bus,

:58:22.:58:29.

B, a new tie, C, a new photo of Margaret Thatcher,

:58:30.:58:33.

or D, a signed copy of Nick Clegg's book?

:58:34.:58:35.

And we have the book here. Did you give that for his birthday? No,

:58:36.:58:50.

Peter Bowen and I are old adversaries. I can't imagine his

:58:51.:58:56.

wife would have ruined his birthday by presenting him with a great big

:58:57.:59:00.

photograph of me on the cover. I have just a hunch it might be, since

:59:01.:59:04.

we are talking about nostalgia and the glories of the past, maybe a

:59:05.:59:09.

photograph of Margaret Thatcher. No, it was his tie! Because he was

:59:10.:59:14.

wearing that's slightly lurid green tie.

:59:15.:59:15.

The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.

:59:16.:59:21.

Andrew will be back for This Week tonight at 11.45 on BBC One.

:59:22.:59:28.

Jo Coburn is joined by Nick Clegg to discuss Brexit, food prices and passports. Also includes discussion of the final US Presidential debate with the pollster Andrew Cooper.


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