Browse content similar to 20/10/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:37. | :00:38. | |
MPs are continuing to put pressure on the government over Brexit, | :00:39. | :00:41. | |
with Labour demanding a vote on the plans before | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
Theresa May is off to Brussels for her first EU summit, | :00:45. | :00:50. | |
she'll tell her fellow leader she doesn't want to wreck | :00:51. | :00:52. | |
the European project, but that there's no chance | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
of Britain doing anything other than leaving. | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
It's Clinton versus Trump round three, and this White House | :01:00. | :01:02. | |
title fight isn't getting any less nasty. | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
Now Donald Trump says he may not accept the result of the election. | :01:07. | :01:12. | |
Anyone like to bring back the blue passport? | :01:13. | :01:14. | |
That would be ridiculous, wouldn't it? | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
We'll be talking about the campaign to bring back the old blue passport | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
There are not one but two parliamentary by-elections today, | :01:24. | :01:29. | |
as voters choose new MPs to take the place of David Cameron | :01:30. | :01:32. | |
And those by-elections may be two big political events today, | :01:33. | :01:47. | |
but broadcasting rules mean we can't discuss them until the polls close | :01:48. | :01:50. | |
So joining me to not discuss them, it's the former | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
He's now the Lib Dem spokesman on Europe and since leaving | :01:55. | :02:00. | |
government he's found time to write a book - | :02:01. | :02:03. | |
appear at a few literary festivals - and even star | :02:04. | :02:05. | |
Other than the Daily Politics I mean. | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
Welcome to the show, Nick. | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
More than 100 MPs have backed a Commons motion to strip former BHS | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
owner Philp Green of his knighthood following the collapse | :02:19. | :02:20. | |
of the high street chain, which left 11,000 staff out of work | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
and the pension scheme with a large deficit. | :02:24. | :02:25. | |
The debate on the demise of BHS is just getting | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
It's the first time Mps have tried to remove a knighthood from a member | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
of the public although we don't yet know if they will have a chance | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
Should it be subject to a vote? If there was a vote and I was there, I | :02:38. | :02:53. | |
would probably vote in favour. I think in particular what was | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
happening with the lack of clarity to the pension scheme is so | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
outrageous. So you would vote for him to lose his knighthood? I | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
probably would but I am quite uneasy about the fact that MPs will start | :03:07. | :03:09. | |
hand-picking people they think should or should not keep their | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
honour or not. What will happen next? Labour will table a motion | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
saying Lynton Crosby should have his knighthood revoked because they | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
don't like him or whatever? Isn't this bit Philip Green has been | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
before but committee of MPs and he has left thousands of people | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
possibly without pensions and this is a symbol, an important symbol for | :03:36. | :03:38. | |
parliamentarians to have a say? That of the argument and I get that. He | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
is in a unique and unflattering category of his own. I think the | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
country at large is absolutely flabbergasted at the cavalier way at | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
which people's pensions and jobs and livelihoods have been dealt with. I | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
just think if we made a habit as the Parliament of kind of saying, today, | :03:59. | :04:06. | |
it is Thursday, we are now going to target X server or Dame. The whole | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
honours system is a little peculiar as it is. I think it would properly | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
be even more topsy-turvy if Parliament spent too much time | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
trying to retract knighthoods and honours from people. And it doesn't | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
mean anything either? It is not binding because the forfeiture | :04:27. | :04:29. | |
committee has to do it. It is only symbolic. When it happened before | :04:30. | :04:35. | |
with Goodwin, it is not Parliament that does that. We will leave it | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
there. I think the debate is lasting for three hours. | :04:40. | :04:42. | |
Now it's time for our daily quiz, and today it's | :04:43. | :04:44. | |
about the Conservative MP Peter Bone. | :04:45. | :04:45. | |
Yesterday he told the Commons it was his birthday, | :04:46. | :04:48. | |
and the Prime Minister caused some amusement when she told him | :04:49. | :04:50. | |
she hoped that Mrs Bone would mark the occasion | :04:51. | :04:52. | |
I have no idea why some people found that funny. | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
Anyway, today's question is - what did Mrs Bone actually give | :04:57. | :04:59. | |
Or D) A signed copy of Nick Clegg's book? | :05:00. | :05:13. | |
At the end of the show Nick - who has absolutely no idea - | :05:14. | :05:16. | |
Theresa May is in Brussels today for her very first EU summit. | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
Russia's involvement in Syria and the immigration crisis | :05:23. | :05:24. | |
are on the main agenda, but we're told the Prime Minister | :05:25. | :05:27. | |
will tell the men and women who are, for now at least, | :05:28. | :05:30. | |
still her fellow EU leaders, that there will be no second | :05:31. | :05:32. | |
referendum, and that she wants our departure to be | :05:33. | :05:35. | |
Well, back at Westminster the Brexit secretary David Davis has been | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
taking questions from MPs including his Labour | :05:41. | :05:43. | |
Yesterday, Mr Speaker, I wrote to the secretary of state to ask a very | :05:44. | :05:58. | |
simple question. When will the plans be made available? The secretary of | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
state replied promptly to my letter but failed to answer that central | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
question. So, I am going to ask him again. When will the government's | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
plans for leaving the EU be made available to this House? It is | :06:14. | :06:16. | |
always our intention that Parliament should being gauged throughout. But | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
the house also agrees a vital caveat that such a process should respect | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
the decision of the EU when they vote to leave the EU -- should | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
respect the decision of the UK. There should be a balance to be | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
struck between transparency and good negotiating practice and I am | :06:35. | :06:37. | |
confident we can strike that balance. | :06:38. | :06:39. | |
Well, remain supporting MPs are showing no signs of letting up | :06:40. | :06:45. | |
the pressure on the government over Brexit, with many demanding a vote | :06:46. | :06:48. | |
on our future relationship with the EU. | :06:49. | :06:50. | |
To discuss this we're joined now by the Conservative MP Oliver Dowden. | :06:51. | :06:52. | |
Welcome back to the Daily Politics. Both of you voted Remain. We are not | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
talking about the rights and wrongs of the vote but you do have | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
different views on how to go forward from here. Oliver Dowden, broadly, | :07:02. | :07:09. | |
you have accepted the vote. Indeed. Nick Clegg, you have not? I have | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
accept the vote entirely that we will leave the European Union. What | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
was not put before the British public is how you leave. There is a | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
myriad different ways you could leave this club. There is not one | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
simple form of Brexit. Since the Brexit is themselves did not deign | :07:28. | :07:29. | |
to spell it out to the British people, not least because they could | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
not agree amongst themselves what makes it meant, that is an open | :07:35. | :07:42. | |
question. Yes there is a mandate to pull us out of the European Union | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
but how you do it should be open to scrutiny. You want Parliament to | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
vote before triggering article 50 say you want to see the plans from | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
the government before article 50 is even triggered. You also want a | :07:57. | :07:59. | |
second referendum on the terms of the deal at the end of the process. | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
Everything you are doing suggests you want to prolong this whole | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
process, that you're hoping in some way to stay, if not as a full member | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
of the EU, you want to stay very closely aligned. It does not sound | :08:13. | :08:18. | |
like you have accept it at all? No, there is huge difference between | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
denying, I am not denial about the vote. I wish it was otherwise. But | :08:23. | :08:28. | |
you are trying to reverse it? Not at all. The plans of how you leave the | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
European Union, do you stay part of the customs union or not? Do you | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
stay part of the single market or not? Do you make financial | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
commitments if you are part of the crime-fighting commitments. The | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
government says they want to participate, how do you do that? | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
What does it mean for our law and budgetary contributions? My own | :08:52. | :08:54. | |
view, for what it is worth, is people voted for Brexit as George | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
Osborne pointed out. They did not necessarily vote for hard Brexit. | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
Which would mean us leaving the single market. Are you saying that a | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
remain alike Nick Clegg and Ed Miliband should shut up and go away | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
and they should not express the views that we are hearing? I am not | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
saying that at all. I think it is very important that Parliament | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
debates and scrutinises this. Nick and I both contributed to various | :09:27. | :09:33. | |
statements. The government will introduce the repeal bill. We will | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
debate that endlessly. What I disagree with Nick on is the need to | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
have a vote on invoking article 50. We in Parliament decided by a | :09:43. | :09:45. | |
majority of six to one to give the power to the British people. We | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
effectively delegated that decision to the British people. There was a | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
strong argument, there was a record turnout and people decided to leave | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
the European Union. The only consequence of that is to invoke | :09:58. | :09:59. | |
article 50. I cannot see the point in having a | :10:00. | :10:17. | |
vote on Article 50 because it is perfectly clear what the British | :10:18. | :10:19. | |
people want to say. Article 50 is like a stopwatch. It is just a | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
mechanism. We want to vote on what the substantive plan to leave the EU | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
is. What if it is voted down? We will have to go back to the drawing | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
board. Here is the crucial thing... What is not legal or workable about | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
leaving the single market? I met thousands of Brexit voters in | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
Sheffield. Lots of Brexit voters said they wanted it because of | :10:41. | :10:43. | |
immigration or they did not like this all like that. Not a single | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
voter who voted Brexit who I met, I agree it is not a scientific sample, | :10:49. | :10:54. | |
they did not say we want to stop British exporters from their | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
untrammelled access to our largest markets in Europe. No one said that | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
and no one wants that but apparently if you listen to David Davis and | :11:03. | :11:05. | |
Liam Fox, that is what they want to do. I would argue they don't have a | :11:06. | :11:12. | |
to do that. They do not have a mandate to inflict economic self | :11:13. | :11:15. | |
harm. Are you saying people did not know that was on the table to leave | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
the single market? It was not even debated. The Brexiteers did not even | :11:22. | :11:30. | |
to -- debate amongst themselves. We have put together what some of the | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
people said at the time. The British public would be voting to leave the | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
EU and leave the single market. Should we come out of the single | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
market? I think that would almost certainly be the case. Do you want | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
to stay inside the single market? No, we should be outside of the | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
single market. I said should we stay in the single market and he said No. | :11:56. | :12:03. | |
He is right. Absolutely. We would be out of the single market, that is | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
the reality. We would be quitting the single market. Britain did know. | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
If you voted to leave the EU it means we would leave the single | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
market. There is a huge difference between cobbling together clips of | :12:18. | :12:20. | |
thousands of minutes of debate and what the Brexit campaign said to the | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
British people. They said most prominently you will get 350 million | :12:26. | :12:34. | |
quid for the NHS every week. They said 80 million Turks might come | :12:35. | :12:36. | |
here soon. They absolutely did not say with one voice that they believe | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
leaving the European Union would mean leaving the customs union and | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
the single market. I think it is pretty clear that the senior | :12:44. | :12:46. | |
politicians on the Leave side said we would leave the single market. To | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
take Nick Clegg's point that that was not in some people's mind the | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
focal point of the campaign, do you accept that people do not realise it | :12:56. | :12:58. | |
would mean coming out of the single market? I completely disagree. It is | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
not just those quotes, as powerful as they were. Nick and I both served | :13:05. | :13:12. | |
the government, mine in a very junior capacity. I remember that | :13:13. | :13:15. | |
David Cameron wanted to be able to get control of immigration. In | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
particular, there was a large public disaffection of the hundreds of | :13:21. | :13:23. | |
thousands of people who had come from Eastern Europe and were allowed | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
completely free access to the United Kingdom and they felt they had not | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
had a say about it. The first thing we try to do is we tried to look at | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
the existing rules of the single market and see if we could control | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
it. The next proposition was that David Cameron tried to renegotiate | :13:40. | :13:42. | |
in order to control immigration. He made some progress but broadly the | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
British people did not feel he succeeded. We then had a referendum | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
where essentially the argument was on the one side from Brexit we | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
should be able to take back control and principally take back control of | :13:55. | :14:05. | |
our borders and laws. And on the other side, the Remain side made the | :14:06. | :14:08. | |
argument there would be a significant economic cost to this. I | :14:09. | :14:10. | |
was a reluctant Remain. I had sympathy but the economics trumped | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
it. You cannot disentangle being a member of the EU with being a member | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
of the single market. Free movement and mass migration was the thing | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
that turbo-charged this debate. That is true, isn't it? It is not true. | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
There are countries who are not members of the European Union and do | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
have full participation in the single market and have greater | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
powers. Which countries have complete curbs on migration? Not | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
complete curbs. The Norwegians do not exercise the powers in full but | :14:43. | :14:49. | |
they retain greater powers about who comes in. Do you accept that if we | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
become like Norway we would not have left the EU. We would still be under | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, we would have to | :14:58. | :15:00. | |
accept some freedom of movement because it is such a cornerstone of | :15:01. | :15:03. | |
the EU and therefore we would be defying the will of the people who | :15:04. | :15:05. | |
voted to leave? I have never accepted the argument | :15:06. | :15:15. | |
that there is some immutable, biblical link between membership of | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
the single market and the rules of freedom of movement. That's | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
certainly not what anybody says, they say that is an absolute | :15:24. | :15:26. | |
cornerstone. I do not believe that is the case and there are plenty of | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
European countries under a great deal of pressure about freedom of | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
movement and would, in my view, entertain a Europe-wide solution. | :15:35. | :15:40. | |
They would not do it Turing the negotiation with David Cameron. | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
First of all it has happened which has delivered a big shock. What you | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
cannot navigate your way around is to say that you are going to have | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
access to a marketplace of rules and not abide by those rules. Leaving | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
the single market, if you don't leave the single market, you don't | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
believe the EU? You do, there are countries in the single market that | :16:05. | :16:07. | |
are not members of the EU, that already exists. It is not just | :16:08. | :16:15. | |
remoaners, as they are called, it is the split within government as well, | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
it is not easy just to point the finger at Nick Clegg or Ed Miliband | :16:20. | :16:22. | |
and say they cannot accept the result. These debates going on at | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
the heart of government at Cabinet level is blow as far as I can see | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
the Prime Minister has set out a clear position accepting the will of | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
the British people, that they want to control and have the best | :16:34. | :16:40. | |
possible economic deal. If it was possible to change the single market | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
rules, we would have done it before. We desperately wanted to be able to | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
do it and we failed. His point is the referendum has happened now. | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
David Cameron kept telling them I'm going to win, it is no problem, they | :16:54. | :17:00. | |
did not feel any pressure. First of all it is one of the four | :17:01. | :17:03. | |
fundamental principles of the single market alongside free movement of | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
labour, goods and services, secondly, Angela Merkel, from her | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
particular background, is very attached to free movement. She was a | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
child of Eastern Europe. There was no sign, she was clear to the Prime | :17:17. | :17:19. | |
Minister, she was not going to concede on this. I can't see that | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
even with this massive shock they are going to allow Britain to have | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
its own sweetheart deal. Let me point to one thing, the Austrian | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
Italian border, there is now barbed wire fencing, right? So freedom of | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
movement is already being kept physically by countries. Not within | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
EU citizens. Hang on, they are putting border checks to the heart | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
of the European Union. Things have moved on. I personally think if | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
Theresa May was smart about it she could encourage other European | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
countries to introduce an emergency brake in effect across the whole of | :17:54. | :17:56. | |
Europe in exchange for a sensible approach from Britain for continued | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
access. You know that is a separate point, we already have border | :18:01. | :18:03. | |
controls in the United Kingdom and those border controls are about | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
re-establishing border controls. They are not about limiting the | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
number of people from other countries coming in. And that's the | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
rub. People feel that hundreds of thousands of people came in, they | :18:15. | :18:17. | |
had no way of controlling it and they never gave consent to it. | :18:18. | :18:24. | |
Finally yes or no, if the plan for a second referendum and the head, | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
which looks unlikely, and the country voted it down, would we | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
still be in the EU? Gosh, that's a legally complex things. Isn't that | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
what you are trying for? I want accountability for the decisions the | :18:39. | :18:41. | |
government takes about how we leave the European Union, not the | :18:42. | :18:44. | |
principle that we are going to. We were not given and we still have not | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
been given a detailed depiction of what Brexit actually looks like in | :18:49. | :18:50. | |
practice. Thank you. Last night saw the third and final | :18:51. | :18:52. | |
TV debate between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton, | :18:53. | :18:55. | |
ahead of next month's election that will see one of them becoming | :18:56. | :18:57. | |
the next US president. It's been an ugly contest so far, | :18:58. | :19:00. | |
and things didn't get any nicer when the candidates met in Las | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
Vegas. We have to keep the drugs | :19:05. | :19:07. | |
out of our country. Right now we getting the drugs, | :19:08. | :19:14. | |
they are getting the cash. But we have some bad hombres here | :19:15. | :19:17. | |
and we are going to get them out. I don't want to be sending | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
parents away from children. I don't want to see the deportation | :19:22. | :19:27. | |
force that Donald has talked about. If we got along well | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
that would be good. If Russia and the United States got | :19:32. | :19:38. | |
along well and went after Isis, It's pretty clear you won't admit | :19:39. | :19:41. | |
that the Russians have engaged in cyber attacks | :19:42. | :19:48. | |
against the United States of America, that you encouraged | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
espionage against our people. Those stories are all totally false, | :19:53. | :19:58. | |
I have to say that. And I didn't even apologise | :19:59. | :20:02. | |
to my wife, who is sitting right We asked Bernie Sanders | :20:03. | :20:05. | |
who he is supporting for president, and he has said, as he | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
has campaigned for me around the country, | :20:10. | :20:11. | |
you are the most dangerous person to run for president | :20:12. | :20:14. | |
in the modern history of America. That you will absolutely accept | :20:15. | :20:16. | |
the result of this election. We're joined now by the pollster | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
and Conservative peer Andrew Cooper. Welcome to the programme. As it | :20:21. | :20:38. | |
stands now, take us through the polls, particularly swing states, | :20:39. | :20:41. | |
because it is all about the electoral college and who reaches | :20:42. | :20:44. | |
the right number or gets within spitting distance and cannot be | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
caught. It's Hillary Clinton's now, isn't it? If we believe the polls, | :20:49. | :20:55. | |
yes. She has led 82 days in a row in the polls and in the past two or | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
three we've seen a big movement in her direction in key battle ground | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
states. Not only looking at the headline numbers, locking down some | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
of the classic swing states like Florida and North Carolina, but | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
starting to expand her map into states the Democrats would never | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
have dreamt of being competitive in, like Utah, Texas, Arizona. However, | :21:18. | :21:24. | |
we just lived through a referendum where the polls were wrong and they | :21:25. | :21:27. | |
don't have a brilliant record in America, so there is a nagging | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
doubt. You think there are still that many shied from voters, if | :21:32. | :21:34. | |
that's not a contradiction in terms, who could come out at this stage -- | :21:35. | :21:42. | |
shy Trump voters. One of the challenges for pollsters is | :21:43. | :21:45. | |
estimating which people will actually vote. In America they based | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
on past voting behaviour. One of the things that happened in our | :21:50. | :21:52. | |
referendum was that 2.8 million people who had not voted in the | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
general election voted to leave. If, in America, there is a huge bubble | :21:57. | :22:03. | |
of basically angry old white men in rust belt states who don't usually | :22:04. | :22:06. | |
ever vote and are massively whited out of the public data, and the | :22:07. | :22:14. | |
polls only need to be wrong by 3.5%, and what looks like a landslide | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
could be much more competitive. Did you watch? It was the middle of the | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
night, wasn't it? I'm still fascinating by all these hand | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
movements. You'd have to ask him. But I don't think you will. Watching | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
the debate from here, the whole debate, the presidential campaign, | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
what's your view now that we are this close to the poll itself. | :22:37. | :22:43. | |
Clinton has been a very unpopular candidate and we've seen a very | :22:44. | :22:46. | |
divided nation. What are your observations? Well American politics | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
tends to set trends which then wash across the Atlantic and so I'm | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
afraid, incongruous I'd arrive is that the evermore nasty sort of | :22:58. | :23:03. | |
personal character assassination which has distinguished this | :23:04. | :23:07. | |
campaign, unless we do something actively to avoid it will become | :23:08. | :23:10. | |
increasingly the kind of character of elections on this side of the | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
Atlantic. Why? Donald Trump is something of a phenomenon, good or | :23:16. | :23:18. | |
bad depending on your viewpoint, but he is not someone you can compare | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
with politicians here. Of course not. In that sense he might be a | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
one-off. I've been an MP for 11 years and in politics for a bit | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
longer and even I have seen here in the UK that there has been a trend | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
towards playing the man or the woman rather than the ball which has got | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
ever more pronounced. Maybe because it is effective, you know, slapping | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
people off for who they are, what they look like, the sound of their | :23:45. | :23:50. | |
voice, might resonate more than having a pointy-headed discussion | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
about local finance. For whatever reason it is increasing and it does | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
make politics evermore vituperative in tone. I hope we can avoid that. I | :23:59. | :24:05. | |
think the tone is massively important in life generally. People | :24:06. | :24:08. | |
don't actually listen to every syllable and consonant of what | :24:09. | :24:11. | |
politicians say but they pick up total. Do the debates make a | :24:12. | :24:14. | |
difference? They have done in the past. The history of US elections, | :24:15. | :24:21. | |
over the last four weeks there is almost no movement. No challenger | :24:22. | :24:24. | |
has ever close the gap of over 4% in the last move. Inasmuch as the | :24:25. | :24:31. | |
voters watch these things, the basic characteristics of these people was | :24:32. | :24:35. | |
priced into it a long time ago. The fact that Donald Trump is a horrible | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
man who says horrible things was factored in a long time ago for | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
many. In a way the impact he felt was after the tapes of him making | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
those lewd comments about women and also the fact that the Republican | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
party seems to have cut him loose. In a sense, the worry about that is | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
does that deliver his message for him? His message is I'm not like | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
them, I'm not a normal politician. It's similar to the referendum, the | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
uprising against the experts, against the establishment. A | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
parallel in terms of the worry of the carry-over to British politics | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
is that the business and depth of the division, that it is such a | :25:15. | :25:17. | |
deeply divided country, the enmity, the fact that the two sides can find | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
it impossible to see the world from the other's point of view. Isn't | :25:22. | :25:24. | |
that the problem, polarising politics in the way these two have | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
is the issue, isn't it, rather than saying it is all about an uprising | :25:30. | :25:32. | |
against the establishment and poor old establishment. This polarisation | :25:33. | :25:38. | |
towards populist extremes on both right and left, not just an American | :25:39. | :25:47. | |
phenomenon, from Podemos to Victor Orban, UC populism right across | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
Europe. What I have tried to write a book about is how does the moderate | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
sentiment make itself heard when it is being pulled from one extreme to | :25:58. | :26:00. | |
the other. I think it's a terrifically important challenge for | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
us to grapple with. Because if you can't make moderate politics are | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
attractive and compelling and emotionally, telling again, we are | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
constantly going to be hijacked by a roving cast of populists on both | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
right and left. Who's going to win? Hillary Clinton. That's good, has | :26:17. | :26:22. | |
least you manage to come out and firmly say one way and not the | :26:23. | :26:24. | |
other. Now, earlier this week our guest | :26:25. | :26:25. | |
of the day, Nick Clegg, who you may by this point have | :26:26. | :26:28. | |
realised supported the UK's membership of the EU, | :26:29. | :26:30. | |
gave a speech warning food prices Nick Clegg says that unless we stay | :26:31. | :26:33. | |
within the single market, the price of items like chocolate, | :26:34. | :26:37. | |
cheese and wine Well, at the moment, | :26:38. | :26:39. | |
being within the single market means we don't pay any tariffs on the food | :26:40. | :26:52. | |
we import from the EU. Leaving the single market could lead | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
to charges being slapped onto imported EU food, | :26:57. | :26:58. | |
increasing prices. What's more, Mr Clegg believes | :26:59. | :26:59. | |
Brexit could lead to a shortage of workers in the food industry, | :27:00. | :27:02. | |
which could be another reason And with the value of the pound | :27:03. | :27:05. | |
falling, buying anything from aboard including | :27:06. | :27:12. | |
food will cost us more. "Rubbish", shout his critics, | :27:13. | :27:15. | |
who say leaving the EU At the moment the EU enforces large | :27:16. | :27:18. | |
tariffs for all food products coming in from outside the EU, | :27:19. | :27:26. | |
once we leave we could get rid of all these which would lead | :27:27. | :27:29. | |
to cheaper imports. We could also cut better trade deals | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
with the rest of the world Finally, they argue, | :27:33. | :27:38. | |
whilst the value of the pound is currently going down, | :27:39. | :27:44. | |
in the medium term it could recover, increasing our purchasing | :27:45. | :27:47. | |
power, lowering prices. Joining me now is Ryan Bourne who's | :27:48. | :27:49. | |
head of public policy at the Institute of Economic | :27:50. | :27:51. | |
Affairs. Increased tariffs, a weak pound, | :27:52. | :27:59. | |
rising fuel costs, Nick Clegg is right, isn't he, too one about the | :28:00. | :28:05. | |
rising cost of food? Brexit was a long-term constitutional decision of | :28:06. | :28:08. | |
course. I would argue that in the long term what will determine food | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
prices in this country are the structural factors underlying the | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
market. I read Nick Clegg's peace. And the key takeaway I took from it | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
is that food prices will be higher if we make extraordinarily bad | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
political decisions. If we decide to adopt the EU Common external tariff | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
and apply that to the EU as well as maintaining the current levels to | :28:31. | :28:33. | |
the rest of the world, and if we prevent farmers from importing the | :28:34. | :28:37. | |
labour that they need in order to pick crops and things. And I just | :28:38. | :28:41. | |
don't think that we'd do that. I think that the liberal case is | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
actually to leave the EU, abolish the protectionism, abolish the | :28:47. | :28:49. | |
agricultural protectionism, moved towards a more dynamic, productive | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
agricultural sector, and allow farmers the workers they need and | :28:54. | :28:56. | |
that's the sensible thing. You are looking at the worst case scenario? | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
Firstly I am just taking what Liam Fox said at the WTO on the 27th of | :29:02. | :29:07. | |
September at face value. He said when the United Kingdom leaves the | :29:08. | :29:13. | |
European Union so the United Kingdom becomes a self standing member of | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
the WTO, you said in terms, we will keep what they call in the jargon | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
the schedule of commitments, all the thousands of tariffs we currently | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
have. I'm just simply translating into numbers what he said. There are | :29:27. | :29:29. | |
other decisions that could offset some of the things Liam Fox says | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
would happen. It's terrifically important, this. What he's saying is | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
that the United Kingdom unilaterally will maintain the wall of tariffs | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
that we multilaterally are part of in the European Union. By the way, | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
much though I'm sure Ryan might be able to explain what he's saying as | :29:47. | :29:49. | |
an economic model, there is no earthly way that any British | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
government is ever going to simply withdraw tariffs on manufacturing | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
and agricultural products, it would decimate British manufacturing and | :29:59. | :30:00. | |
agriculture overnight. No Conservative government would ever | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
do it. And by the way it's totally inconsistent to say we'll get rid of | :30:06. | :30:08. | |
the tariffs unilaterally and then negotiate new trade deals with | :30:09. | :30:11. | |
countries around the world. I didn't say that. We have no negotiating | :30:12. | :30:13. | |
capital left. Whatever happens in the long term | :30:14. | :30:21. | |
and you did start your introduction by saying in the long term, but you | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
admit food prices could go up, imports will be more expensive, they | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
will be more expensive from the EU. There is a sort of a mission that | :30:31. | :30:36. | |
will happen in the short term? It depends on the decisions we make. I | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
remember strongly in the referendum campaign a tweet from Paddy Ashdown | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
saying the secret is out, we will get cheap food flooding the country | :30:47. | :30:52. | |
as a result of Brexit. We will become a member of the WTA. There is | :30:53. | :30:55. | |
no reason why we have to maintain that current level of commitment. | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
And while we do have to apply the same tariffs to every country around | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
the world, I think the liberal case that you should be making is why | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
don't we abolish these tariffs? If you are a free marketeer then you | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
could do these things with countries outside the EU? Of course I don't | :31:14. | :31:19. | |
dispute Ryan's ideological case. In an ideal world you would have lower | :31:20. | :31:25. | |
taxes and tariffs. Is that achievable? I don't think there is a | :31:26. | :31:29. | |
remit possibility that any British government in their right mind will | :31:30. | :31:32. | |
pull the rug out from under the feet of British farmers. You would | :31:33. | :31:43. | |
basically overnight expose British manufacturing to a degree of | :31:44. | :31:46. | |
low-cost competition they could not withstand from one moment to the | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
next. It is not politically realistic to say to hell with it. | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
And you have to look at the real politic here before you put forward | :31:56. | :32:01. | |
your economic case, post-Brexit, because otherwise industries will | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
suffer and could suffer and the consumer will pay the price. If | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
there will be curbs on migration which there will be, that could | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
cause problems in the food industry? I have been suggesting that the | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
British government should come out and guarantee the rights of workers | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
here. I think there would be a replacement scheme to something like | :32:25. | :32:27. | |
the seasonal agricultural workers scheme. There is a precedent for a | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
liberalisation of the agricultural sector. New Zealand had a much | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
bigger agricultural sector in the 1980s. They removed all subsidies | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
over a five-year period. Yes, the industry did change. Some farms were | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
eliminated entirely. Fund grew bigger and some diversify into new | :32:47. | :32:52. | |
products and New Zealand is held up as a model. Could that happen in the | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
UK? I think politicians should be making the case for this. It does | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
surprise me that liberals are making this case for protection? Unlike | :33:02. | :33:08. | |
most people in British politics I worked as an EU trade negotiator. | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
You have to have some bargaining chips you can throw onto the table | :33:13. | :33:14. | |
to get the best deal possible. If you unilaterally decide yourself and | :33:15. | :33:23. | |
go straight to tariffs on all of our protected sectors now, there is no | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
incentive for any other country whether it is America, China or | :33:28. | :33:30. | |
India to give us any concessions because we would have thrown away | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
all the negotiating chips at the outset. I think Liam Fox was right | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
to say he would keep the European commitments in the first instance | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
but we have to understand what the implications mean. It does mean | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
prices will go up for food. Ultimately, it is consumers who will | :33:49. | :33:51. | |
pay the costs. If other countries want to raise prices and have less | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
reductive industry and agriculture as a result, that is up for them, | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
but the British government should be setting out what is best for Britain | :34:00. | :34:03. | |
and not worrying what the rest of the world will do. Thank you. | :34:04. | :34:06. | |
The Scottish government has this morning published a draft bill | :34:07. | :34:08. | |
setting out plans for a second independence referendum. | :34:09. | :34:10. | |
The First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, argues that the Brexit vote | :34:11. | :34:12. | |
means her government has a mandate to seek another vote, | :34:13. | :34:15. | |
although at this stage the plans are only being put | :34:16. | :34:17. | |
Our Scotland editor Sarah Smith is in Edinburgh. | :34:18. | :34:23. | |
Sarah Smith, is there much fanfare accompanying this today? Well, it is | :34:24. | :34:30. | |
remarkably low-key actually. They have published the draft bill online | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
and there has been a statement from a government minister but the First | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
Minister Nicola Sturgeon is not giving a big press conference. They | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
had a fairly huge event at their party conference at the weekend when | :34:44. | :34:46. | |
Nicola Sturgeon announced her plans to publish this and she got a | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
rapturous response from the SNP delegates who were in the hole at | :34:51. | :35:03. | |
the time. Will this be enough to satisfy her supporters? This is just | :35:04. | :35:05. | |
the legislative roasters. It does not mean we will necessarily see | :35:06. | :35:07. | |
another independent referendum taking place soon? It does not mean | :35:08. | :35:10. | |
there will be one soon and there is no date for this consultation. The | :35:11. | :35:14. | |
First Minister thinks Scotland does have the right to take another | :35:15. | :35:17. | |
decision about independence before the UK leave the EU. But this is not | :35:18. | :35:24. | |
just aimed at her supporters and keeping them happy, that there is | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
the prospect of another referendum in the offing, this is aimed | :35:29. | :35:32. | |
squarely at the Prime Minister. Nicola Sturgeon will meet Theresa | :35:33. | :35:35. | |
May on Monday. They will have their first serious talks on how the | :35:36. | :35:40. | |
Scottish Government will be involved in Brexit negotiations. Nicola | :35:41. | :35:43. | |
Sturgeon is worried that the Prime Minister will not make good on her | :35:44. | :35:46. | |
promises to keep the Scottish Government fully engaged. So she has | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
created a bargaining chip. She can say unless you give us some of what | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
we want, I have the prospect of another referendum on Scottish | :35:56. | :35:58. | |
independence in my back pocket. She wants more devolved powers for the | :35:59. | :36:01. | |
Scottish Government and if she doesn't get them she can say well I | :36:02. | :36:05. | |
will be forced to go to another referendum. We have also heard about | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
plans to change Scottish constituencies. Can you bring us | :36:11. | :36:17. | |
up-to-date? The boundary -- the boundary commission has released | :36:18. | :36:24. | |
their plans. Seats will be reduced from 5019 53. The seat of Edinburgh | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
South will disappear and be hived off into neighbouring seats. That | :36:30. | :36:33. | |
really matters because that is the only Labour constituency in Scotland | :36:34. | :36:36. | |
at the moment where Ian Murray is the MP. There is only one Lib Dem MP | :36:37. | :36:43. | |
and he represents all clear Shetland and that will be untouched and David | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
Mundell's seat will remain largely unchanged. There might not be any | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
Labour constituency after the election in 2020. Of course, it does | :36:55. | :37:00. | |
not mean they cannot win another seat somewhere else but the one they | :37:01. | :37:03. | |
have at the moment will vanish. Thank you. | :37:04. | :37:05. | |
Now, it's been 30 years since we stopped using these - | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
yes it's the old navy blue passport, used by British travellers | :37:09. | :37:10. | |
until 1988 when they began to be replaced with the burgundy number | :37:11. | :37:13. | |
which is standard across most of the EU. | :37:14. | :37:15. | |
With Britain now heading for Brexit, there have been calls from some | :37:16. | :37:18. | |
politicians for the old-style passport to be bought back | :37:19. | :37:20. | |
as a symbol of the country regaining sovereignty. | :37:21. | :37:23. | |
9am, the passport office in London's Victoria, | :37:24. | :37:30. | |
Are you applying for a new passport? | :37:31. | :37:38. | |
If you knew you were going to get a dark blue one, would it be | :37:39. | :37:43. | |
I don't know what a dark blue one is. | :37:44. | :37:46. | |
It's what the old British passport used to be like. | :37:47. | :37:48. | |
And some people are campaigning for us to go back to the dark blue. | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
What's the difference with the colours? | :37:54. | :37:55. | |
I don't know, doesn't really make a difference to me. | :37:56. | :37:58. | |
I think to some people it would be a symbol that we are an independent | :37:59. | :38:01. | |
nation again, that we are not in the EU any more. | :38:02. | :38:04. | |
I'd have no issue with it going back to blue, I'd be quite happy, | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
particularly by voting for Brexit myself as a voter. | :38:09. | :38:11. | |
Anyone like to bring back the blue passport? | :38:12. | :38:14. | |
Obviously not this size, that would be ridiculous, wouldn't it? | :38:15. | :38:20. | |
The size of our real passports is controlled strictly | :38:21. | :38:22. | |
The reason they are burgundy is because of EU law. | :38:23. | :38:29. | |
And so if the UK unilaterally changes the colour of its passports | :38:30. | :38:32. | |
while it's still in the EU, then it runs the risk | :38:33. | :38:34. | |
of being hauled in front of the European Court of Justice. | :38:35. | :38:37. | |
Do you care about the colour of your passport? | :38:38. | :38:39. | |
Yeah, and you're stuck with it because you're | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
Would you rather have one of those or one | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
The Home Office says it's done some work on options for post-Brexit | :38:49. | :38:57. | |
passports, but they've made no decisions about | :38:58. | :38:59. | |
It's only a colour difference. | :39:00. | :39:01. | |
Are you colour-blind when it comes to passports? | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
Do you care what colour your passport is? | :39:07. | :39:15. | |
There is an opportunity to look at the design of British passports | :39:16. | :39:26. | |
coming up in the near future because the contract to provide them | :39:27. | :39:29. | |
But a red passport is all right for me as well. | :39:30. | :39:39. | |
I'll take a pink passport if you are going to give me one. | :39:40. | :39:44. | |
Do you really remember having a dark blue passport? | :39:45. | :39:47. | |
I can't remember whether I do or not. | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
I think my passport has always been red. | :39:52. | :39:53. | |
And what about people like me who don't need a new passport | :39:54. | :39:56. | |
Although I've spoken to an MP whois said he'd lose his down the sofa | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
to get a new blue one, if there are new blue ones. | :40:01. | :40:09. | |
And I should just say if there is a new one it will not have the | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
European Union of course emblazoned on the top. | :40:15. | :40:16. | |
And we're joined now by the Conservative Andrew Rosindell, | :40:17. | :40:18. | |
he's one of a number of MPs backing a campaign to bring back | :40:19. | :40:21. | |
We would have a job getting it in our pockets! I like the colour. What | :40:22. | :40:34. | |
is in a colour? Is it really that important? Absolutely. It is about | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
national identity. It is about showing we are British, Britain is | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
back. When we travel abroad, instead of having this run-of-the-mill | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
standard EU passport we have our own British passport again. The one | :40:49. | :40:51. | |
thing that matters to British people, and that was shown in the | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
referendum, they feel they are losing their identity and losing | :40:56. | :41:07. | |
their sovereignty. The one thing you can do easily go back to the Royal | :41:08. | :41:10. | |
blue British passport and I think it will be popular among British | :41:11. | :41:13. | |
people. Will you see it as they symbol of independence? Of course | :41:14. | :41:15. | |
not. Andrew is right that identity is important that if it was as | :41:16. | :41:18. | |
simple as changing the colour I think life would be simpler. | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
Personally, I cannot get excited about whether it is burgundy or | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
blue. This is utterly meaningless to millions of young voters who have | :41:28. | :41:31. | |
never known anything other than a burgundy passport. What I find | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
interesting about this bait is there is a strand of thinking which has a | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
very nostalgic wish to turn the clock back which is very difficult | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
for young people. There were a couple of people on that clip you | :41:44. | :41:46. | |
did not know there was a blue one before. I think we need to move on | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
and not constantly think that the only way you can be confident about | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
your identity is about turning the clock back. How about turning it | :41:55. | :42:04. | |
forward? Are you turning the clock back? Quite opposite. We are | :42:05. | :42:06. | |
rekindling things we have lost. Isn't that turning the clock back? | :42:07. | :42:10. | |
Not at all. You only appreciate things when you have lost them. All | :42:11. | :42:17. | |
generations... All generations? The people we spoke to were not | :42:18. | :42:23. | |
interested. There was an older lady. Maybe people do forget. The more you | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
talk to people, the more people are keen to see our British traditions | :42:28. | :42:31. | |
and British identity cherished and upheld and not discarded under the | :42:32. | :42:35. | |
banner of the European Union. Are you going to go forward with these | :42:36. | :42:41. | |
plans before we leave the EU? It is a good question. I have asked the | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
government to look into the legalities of this. Frankly, it is | :42:46. | :42:49. | |
ludicrous to get Brussels opinion. Would you like to go back to weights | :42:50. | :42:57. | |
and measures -- imperial weights and measures? We are talking about | :42:58. | :43:00. | |
passports. I want the British people to decide what is best for our | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
country. We should make those decisions. But that is a classic | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
example of what people will use do from the past, it was hours, it was | :43:09. | :43:14. | |
imperial. Wouldn't you want to go further? If we think that is a good | :43:15. | :43:20. | |
thing for Britain then so be it. I am asking what you think. I would | :43:21. | :43:28. | |
certainly think about that. I think it is worth considering. Today, I | :43:29. | :43:32. | |
want to talk about passports. I think if you asked most British | :43:33. | :43:35. | |
people, although some people don't care and I accept that, if we say | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
should we have our own British passport or stick with the European | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
format, most people would say we should go for British. Do you want | :43:46. | :43:52. | |
to try and pursue this ahead of leaving the EU? Guest-macro. It is a | :43:53. | :43:58. | |
symbolic gesture. But it does break the EU law. The government doesn't | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
seem to be showing any appetite for this at all. The very least they | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
could do is publish their design and plan for what we will have | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
eventually. Clearly, when we leave the EU, if we have to wait that long | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
to bring our British passport back, they should be thinking about what | :44:16. | :44:21. | |
type of design. It does not just affect the United Kingdom. The Isle | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
of Man and the Channel Islands use the British passport as well and | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
they are not in the EU. But they are numbered with an EU passport even | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
though they are not in the EU. International rules guide the size | :44:35. | :44:41. | |
of the passport but beyond that, the material, the colour and wording | :44:42. | :44:43. | |
would be free for us to choose. Would you like to see some | :44:44. | :44:48. | |
impressions come out in the future? I'm afraid I don't tie myself up in | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
knots with the future colour of the passport. Clearly, it will change so | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
we have to have different designs. If Andrew wants to campaign for a | :44:59. | :45:01. | |
particular colour, maybe someone else wants green. We can come up | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
with aesthetic schemes. My worry about this is this is a really big | :45:07. | :45:09. | |
moment of change in our country and I think for younger voters, the vast | :45:10. | :45:13. | |
majority of whom did not want us to leave the European Union, I think | :45:14. | :45:16. | |
they would want us to talk that stuff which is about their future, | :45:17. | :45:23. | |
not hankering for a past which, as I said I am pretty agnostic about the | :45:24. | :45:26. | |
colour of my passport in my pocket, for them, it is not top of their | :45:27. | :45:28. | |
priorities. This is my point, it is something we | :45:29. | :45:37. | |
can sort out quickly. We are going back to doing things the British | :45:38. | :45:43. | |
way. You do want to go back? Yes, restore the colour, but let's do it | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
quickly, not fat around. And what a great symbol that would be to | :45:48. | :45:50. | |
everybody. Darren Deed in 30 years' time younger people would be used to | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
that country -- guaranteed. What about stamps in the passport, would | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
you like to see them come back with yellow if there is a need for it, a | :45:59. | :46:00. | |
practical use. I'm not sure that's something we can | :46:01. | :46:07. | |
decide today. I don't think so, certainly not with countries that we | :46:08. | :46:11. | |
don't have visas with, but that's another topic altogether. I'm | :46:12. | :46:16. | |
talking about the symbolic importance of restoring our British | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
passport. You will no doubt be campaigning in the Home Office for | :46:21. | :46:21. | |
all of these changes. Now, the Liberal Democrats | :46:22. | :46:23. | |
and Labour have been attacking each other in the House of Lords this | :46:24. | :46:25. | |
week over the Labour has attacked the bill but did | :46:26. | :46:42. | |
not back a Lib Dem attempt to block certain parts of it. | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
Here's the Lib Dems' Brian Paddick speaking in the Lords yesterday. | :46:47. | :46:49. | |
Telephone operators already keep a record of the details of every | :46:50. | :46:51. | |
phone call made and every text message sent. | :46:52. | :46:54. | |
Internet service providers are being forced by this bill | :46:55. | :46:56. | |
to keep a record of every website you and I and everyone else in this | :46:57. | :47:03. | |
country has visited over the previous 12 months. | :47:04. | :47:06. | |
A provision this house agreed to on Monday | :47:07. | :47:09. | |
in a division when they rejected the Liberal Democrat | :47:10. | :47:11. | |
We're joined now by Angela Smith, Baroness Basildon, leader of Labour | :47:12. | :47:18. | |
Nick Clegg, what is so wrong with this bill now? This aspect of it, | :47:19. | :47:31. | |
Internet connection records is, in my view, they called it something | :47:32. | :47:39. | |
different, but it was always there. It basically is a sort of Dragnet | :47:40. | :47:42. | |
approach to the retention of particular forms of data. It doesn't | :47:43. | :47:48. | |
include the content at it can build up a very detailed picture of | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
peoples usage it's not really done anywhere else. The Danes did it and | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
scrapped it. In my view it is disproportionate. Because you'd have | :47:58. | :48:01. | |
had access to those high security briefings, you will also know, they | :48:02. | :48:05. | |
will have presented to you how important it is that security | :48:06. | :48:08. | |
services have all the tools at their disposal, and yet you still feel it | :48:09. | :48:15. | |
is disproportionate? This is awful jargon, about how big you need to | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
create the haystack to look for the needle, and who retains it, is it | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
the government, GCHQ or in this case the communications operators | :48:24. | :48:26. | |
themselves. In my view there is very little evidence that this huge | :48:27. | :48:31. | |
retention of massive amounts of data in a very unwieldy way is the best | :48:32. | :48:35. | |
way to go after the needles. So why are you siding with the | :48:36. | :48:39. | |
Conservatives over this very illiberal bill? Your Shadow Cabinet | :48:40. | :48:42. | |
Bill Diane Abbott described it as Draconian. I think it was when it | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
was first introduced into the House of Commons. It was only after we got | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
certain checks and balances that we voted it. On this particular issue, | :48:52. | :48:57. | |
I wish you'd shown a bit longer, you would have seen two very senior | :48:58. | :49:00. | |
Liberal Democrats, including the former leader, criticising that | :49:01. | :49:07. | |
approach and voting against it. In fact Brian Pavlik had to withdraw | :49:08. | :49:12. | |
because one his own side did not support him. There have been | :49:13. | :49:21. | |
changes. Internet collection of information, we talking about | :49:22. | :49:24. | |
serious organised crime, how do they communicate? Via the Internet. But | :49:25. | :49:28. | |
we have checks and balances that were not there before, basically | :49:29. | :49:31. | |
both the Home Secretary and the judicial commission would have to | :49:32. | :49:35. | |
sign this off as being justified and proportionate and necessary. So | :49:36. | :49:38. | |
you've got a political and a judge, a double lock, as it were, on | :49:39. | :49:43. | |
whether this is appropriate. Because what you need to do is actually | :49:44. | :49:45. | |
dispense of the information you don't need and get to what you do. | :49:46. | :49:51. | |
The independent commission an independent reviewer of this | :49:52. | :49:53. | |
legislation said this is necessary. There would be a judicial check. | :49:54. | :49:58. | |
What more do you want? Angela is absolutely right. I think the | :49:59. | :50:05. | |
Liberal Democrats have sat on the sidelines and whinged about the | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
bill, meanwhile our key people, our brightest and best in both houses, | :50:10. | :50:12. | |
has said this bill needs checks and balances and changes. I have | :50:13. | :50:17. | |
actually lived with this bill for many years. You are not the only | :50:18. | :50:22. | |
one. The procedural decision making changes, of course it will. It gets | :50:23. | :50:30. | |
quite technical. But look, when you ask the government what do | :50:31. | :50:32. | |
interconnection records mean, they literally mean the moment you | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
connect onto the Internet, whether it's Google maps, whether it's on to | :50:37. | :50:41. | |
a dodgy website, it is literally any connection. So you can imagine the | :50:42. | :50:46. | |
vast, vast amounts of inert, useless, entirely redundant data | :50:47. | :50:52. | |
that is being stored by, by the way, unqualified, across everybody, the | :50:53. | :50:55. | |
whole population. These fishing expeditions to worry people. It is | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
not fishing expeditions. That information is held and has to be | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
kept, it is not looked at. And then if there is clear evidence that both | :51:05. | :51:07. | |
the Home Secretary and a judge say we need to have access. Why does no | :51:08. | :51:12. | |
other modern jurisdiction do this? Bay may well do in the future. That | :51:13. | :51:18. | |
amount of personal data, as you probably both agree is useless in | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
the vast majority of cases, to be held for any length of time. For a | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
year. It is being held and if access is needed, which would mean, who's | :51:28. | :51:32. | |
been talking to who, it may be a case, not just terrorism, it could | :51:33. | :51:36. | |
be child abduction, child pornography, child abuse, all those | :51:37. | :51:40. | |
areas. I think we need access on when it is justified to look at the | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
specific records, the police and security services are able to do so | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
for our protection. It is an age-old debate, this. Security, privacy, | :51:50. | :51:55. | |
liberty, and how much data and of what kind do you retain on the whole | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
population including millions of innocent people going about their | :52:00. | :52:01. | |
business in order to go after the bad people. And no other modern | :52:02. | :52:07. | |
jurisdiction in the developed world does this sledgehammer approach. Is | :52:08. | :52:12. | |
this still a sledgehammer? You are retaining huge amounts of | :52:13. | :52:17. | |
information. But it is not used unless there is some sort of | :52:18. | :52:20. | |
judicial oversight and the Home Secretary saying yes we will pursue | :52:21. | :52:24. | |
this. The only other modern jurisdictions that have tried to do | :52:25. | :52:27. | |
this scrapped it because it was so unwieldy and so impractical and it | :52:28. | :52:33. | |
did not add to the crime busting powers that you want our agencies to | :52:34. | :52:38. | |
have. When somebody like David Anderson, the independent reviewer | :52:39. | :52:41. | |
of this kind of legislation, investigates this and looks at it, | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
and says is it proportionate and necessary, he says yes in some cases | :52:46. | :52:51. | |
it is. Brian paddock had to change his view and admit part of what he | :52:52. | :52:59. | |
said in the House of Lords the other day. We interviewed David Anderson, | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
what do you say he said about this? He said it was a proportionate | :53:04. | :53:07. | |
response and there is a case for doing so and that is quite clear. | :53:08. | :53:10. | |
There is something called Olcan data. I'm fashionably amongst | :53:11. | :53:16. | |
liberals I have always said there is a case for agencies to hold what is | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
called bulk data. This is the stuff that comes in great pipes under the | :53:22. | :53:25. | |
sea from other jurisdictions. This is quite different. Internet | :53:26. | :53:28. | |
connection records is every time you click back computer under this table | :53:29. | :53:32. | |
here, that is going to be stored on a database somewhere. It's a | :53:33. | :53:37. | |
completely different thing. You have let Civil Liberties go? Absolutely | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
not. The checks and balances that we have inserted in this bill would not | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
have been there. And they are misleading people and playing a bit | :53:47. | :53:50. | |
of a game here and I think it is a dangerous approach. You can say we | :53:51. | :53:54. | |
are trading Civil Liberties against security, both are equally important | :53:55. | :53:57. | |
and that's the route we have taken. Thank you. | :53:58. | :53:58. | |
Now we sometimes bring you news of defections on this programme. | :53:59. | :54:01. | |
We rarely hear of politicians defecting back again. | :54:02. | :54:02. | |
And it's even rarer to to hear of them doing so within 24 hour. | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
But that's what's happened in Swindon, where the defection | :54:07. | :54:08. | |
of a councillor called Matthew Courtliff from Labour | :54:09. | :54:10. | |
to the Conservatives was greeted with some pleasure by local Tories, | :54:11. | :54:13. | |
But just hours after the announcement, Mr Courtliff said | :54:14. | :54:21. | |
he'd changed his mind and would be staying with Labour after all. | :54:22. | :54:25. | |
He described it as the "worst 24 hours of my life". | :54:26. | :54:27. | |
Well, the journalist who's been covering the story, Chris Humphreys, | :54:28. | :54:30. | |
Tell us what happened. It's been a bizarre 24 hours. We got news on | :54:31. | :54:42. | |
Tuesday night that he was in with the council leader in a meeting and | :54:43. | :54:46. | |
was looking to change side. There had been rumours for a few days. | :54:47. | :54:50. | |
Within an hour there were very strong statement put out, he said he | :54:51. | :54:54. | |
was looking forward to Theresa May Bulls leadership as a conservative, | :54:55. | :54:57. | |
that Jeremy Corbyn had lost touch with people. He was warmly welcomed | :54:58. | :55:03. | |
by the leader of the Council, a local Conservative MPs. Labour | :55:04. | :55:06. | |
councillors were scathing and called it the worst thing about politics. | :55:07. | :55:10. | |
Less than 24 hours later he said he made a terrible state and he | :55:11. | :55:15. | |
regretted it and he wanted people to forgive him. You wonder what | :55:16. | :55:19. | |
happened in those 24 hours, I mean, are Swindon conservatives really | :55:20. | :55:24. | |
that bad? He is quite young, 25, the youngest on the council and I think | :55:25. | :55:27. | |
the attention he got was quite a shock. You think he did not realise | :55:28. | :55:31. | |
he was going to come under the spotlight in quite the way he did. | :55:32. | :55:35. | |
But what about his Labour colleagues? They put out a statement | :55:36. | :55:39. | |
as you said saying it was a dishonourable position and | :55:40. | :55:41. | |
represented the worst of politics, what did they say when he came back? | :55:42. | :55:46. | |
There is a mixture, certain more moderate Labour councillors who want | :55:47. | :55:49. | |
to see it as a mistake and put it behind them, but there are some | :55:50. | :55:54. | |
further to the Jeremy Corbyn side of the party who will not take kindly | :55:55. | :55:57. | |
to his messages of support for Theresa May and criticising the | :55:58. | :56:01. | |
leadership. And you've spoken to him, I presume, how is he feeling? I | :56:02. | :56:06. | |
think a little raw is probably the way I'd describe it. It's probably | :56:07. | :56:09. | |
his first encounter with the ruthlessness of front line politics | :56:10. | :56:16. | |
even at the local level. It might take him a few weeks to come out and | :56:17. | :56:20. | |
stand up to residents and explain himself. Ayew upset he did not go to | :56:21. | :56:28. | |
the Liberal Democrats? He is in a traumatised state, if he wants to | :56:29. | :56:31. | |
spend time with nice people, we'll give him a nice cup of tea, you can | :56:32. | :56:35. | |
always join the Liberal Democrats and make it a clean sweep, a | :56:36. | :56:40. | |
hat-trick. I presume he hasn't considered joining the Liberal | :56:41. | :56:45. | |
Democrats? Well, we don't know. He certainly considered the | :56:46. | :56:47. | |
Conservative Party and they said they left their door open. I'm sure | :56:48. | :56:51. | |
the Liberal Democrats would welcome another member in Swindon. I'm sure | :56:52. | :56:54. | |
they would. I don't know how many they've got. Do you think voters | :56:55. | :57:01. | |
will be understanding? Certain people who were out campaigning with | :57:02. | :57:04. | |
him when standing as a Labour candidate have been critical and | :57:05. | :57:08. | |
said, can I have my vote back? Others have said, if we cannot trust | :57:09. | :57:12. | |
you on this and your positions are not set in stone, how can we trust | :57:13. | :57:17. | |
you on other issues. And when is he up for re-election? He'll be up in | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
the general election year. So not only has he got to prove his worth | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
to residents, he has also got to fight against the Labour performance | :57:27. | :57:29. | |
nationally as well. Thank you very much. | :57:30. | :57:31. | |
Now it's nearly time to bring you the answer | :57:32. | :57:34. | |
to our quiz, first let's remind you what it's all about. | :57:35. | :57:36. | |
Here's an exchange from Prime Minister's Questions yesterday, | :57:37. | :57:38. | |
when Conservative MP Peter Bone was asking Thersa May | :57:39. | :57:41. | |
Would she support the reopening of Wellingborough prison as part of | :57:42. | :57:47. | |
this excellent programme, or would she rather just | :57:48. | :57:49. | |
I say to my honourable friend I'm very happy to | :57:50. | :57:56. | |
wish him a very happy birthday today, many happy returns. | :57:57. | :57:59. | |
I hope that Mrs Bone is going to treat the | :58:00. | :58:01. | |
Well that innuendo, intentional or not, caused | :58:02. | :58:14. | |
But what we want to know is, what did Peter Bone actually get | :58:15. | :58:21. | |
Was it, A, a replica Vote Leave bus, | :58:22. | :58:29. | |
B, a new tie, C, a new photo of Margaret Thatcher, | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
or D, a signed copy of Nick Clegg's book? | :58:34. | :58:35. | |
And we have the book here. Did you give that for his birthday? No, | :58:36. | :58:50. | |
Peter Bowen and I are old adversaries. I can't imagine his | :58:51. | :58:56. | |
wife would have ruined his birthday by presenting him with a great big | :58:57. | :59:00. | |
photograph of me on the cover. I have just a hunch it might be, since | :59:01. | :59:04. | |
we are talking about nostalgia and the glories of the past, maybe a | :59:05. | :59:09. | |
photograph of Margaret Thatcher. No, it was his tie! Because he was | :59:10. | :59:14. | |
wearing that's slightly lurid green tie. | :59:15. | :59:15. | |
The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now. | :59:16. | :59:21. | |
Andrew will be back for This Week tonight at 11.45 on BBC One. | :59:22. | :59:28. |