Browse content similar to 25/10/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:36. | :00:45. | |
The government backs a new third runway at Heathrow, but faces | :00:46. | :00:51. | |
opposition from rival airports, and government ministers. | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
Remember the newspaper hacking scandal? | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
Today a new press regulator could be approved which could trigger | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
new rules described by the press as "draconian". | :01:04. | :01:05. | |
Billions of taxpayer pounds are paid by the government to companies | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
Does out-sourcing ensure value-for-money, or put | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
And we talk about politics being an art, but it's also a science, | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
It's not going to explode, we shouldn't stand back? | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
I'm fairly confident it won't explode! | :01:23. | :01:38. | |
And I can confirm it did not explode! | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
All that in the next hour and with us for the whole | :01:44. | :01:45. | |
of the programme today is Kulveer Ranger, head | :01:46. | :01:47. | |
of public affairs for ATOS, the IT services company which has | :01:48. | :01:50. | |
contracts with the UK government worth over | :01:51. | :01:52. | |
Kulveer also worked for Boris Johnson when he was London mayor. | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
So, the big decision on Heathrow expansion has been | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
Theresa May's Cabinet approved plans for a new, third runway | :02:01. | :02:08. | |
But there's to be more consultation in the new year, | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
Speaking in the last hour, the Transport Secretary Chris Grayling | :02:13. | :02:23. | |
said building a third runway at Heathrow was the best option for | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
This is a really big decision for this country, | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
but it is also the clearest sign post the referendum | :02:31. | :02:32. | |
that this country is very clearly open for business. | :02:33. | :02:34. | |
We have thought long and hard about this, | :02:35. | :02:36. | |
the committee considered all three options. | :02:37. | :02:38. | |
There were three very good options on the table, | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
but we believe a third runway for Heathrow is the best | :02:42. | :02:43. | |
option for our future, it is the best option for the whole | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
country to create better connectivity to the different | :02:47. | :02:48. | |
regions in the United Kingdom, and to provide the best | :02:49. | :02:50. | |
So we think this is the right decision for Britain. | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
My message to Gatwick, I know this will be a disappointment | :02:55. | :02:57. | |
for them, but Gatwick remains a really important part | :02:58. | :02:59. | |
of our transport system and will continue being so. | :03:00. | :03:01. | |
But what today is about is doing the right thing for Britain, | :03:02. | :03:04. | |
doing the right thing for the whole country, | :03:05. | :03:06. | |
delivering the best option that will secure all of our futures | :03:07. | :03:09. | |
and working to create a country that works for everyone. | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
The Transport Secretary Chris Grayling. Already opponents have | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
expressed their anger at the decision. The Conservative MP for | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
Richmond Park is that Goldsmith tweeted: | :03:25. | :03:25. | |
He had always threatened to resign if they gave the third runway at | :03:26. | :03:36. | |
Let's get the latest from our correspondent, Eleanor Garnier. | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
It was working at the's worst kept secret. Nearly 50 years of delay, | :03:42. | :03:51. | |
dithering, enquiries and commissions and we have finally had that | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
decision, that it will be a third runway at Heathrow. It has been the | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
preferred option of successive governments and the Airport | :04:01. | :04:03. | |
Commission had recommended that plan. But it will be controversial, | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
there will be legal wrangling is, appeals, concern over the impact on | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
the environment. But today was a big moment, we finally got the decision, | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
and there will be criticism on both sides. Things will not move quickly. | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
We will have a year-long consultation before MPs get a vote | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
on the Heathrow option in the Commons next year. We could see a | :04:29. | :04:35. | |
by-election with Zac Goldsmith, the MP for Richmond, threatening to | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
stand down as an independent if Heathrow got the go-ahead. But do | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
not expect things to move quickly. We know about splits, Boris Johnson, | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
Justine Greening, in the Cabinet, to name just two. What will happen to | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
them? That is why we got an inkling last week that it might be Heathrow. | :04:57. | :05:04. | |
Theresa May said she would be listening to limited Cabinet dissent | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
and they will be allowed to voice their opposition to this idea for | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
Heathrow. But they will not be allowed to be critical in the | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
Commons, they will not be allowed to campaign. Those in Cabinet who want | :05:17. | :05:19. | |
to express their opposition to the plan must have done so already, they | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
must have already established their views. Already on the TV and in the | :05:24. | :05:30. | |
papers they have said publicly they have opposed the idea, but they need | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
the green light from Theresa May. The idea that many of us had Boris | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
Johnson lying down in front of the bulldozers, I do not think that will | :05:41. | :05:47. | |
happen. What about the others in Parliament? We know Jeremy Corbyn | :05:48. | :05:49. | |
does not like the idea of expansion at Heathrow. They are yet to decide | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
whether it will be a free vote for the Labour Party or not. But the | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
government will not have a problem with numbers getting the vote | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
through. We know the SNP will vote for the expansion at Heathrow | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
because it will help conductivity to Scotland and we know the SNP are | :06:09. | :06:15. | |
behind this idea. You work for Boris Johnson very closely with him and | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
for him and his views are clear about airport expansion. Where do | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
you stand now? Boris and I were never on the same flight path. I am | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
a child of the flight path, I grew up in Hounslow in west London and I | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
understand the challenges local people face with Heathrow expansion. | :06:34. | :06:41. | |
But also the businesses, the local economy, the national economy and | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
conductivity. This is what we are talking about, collectivity. | :06:47. | :06:50. | |
Infrastructure, transport, rail, connections to the south-west and | :06:51. | :06:53. | |
Birmingham and beyond and Heathrow is ideally placed. It is at capacity | :06:54. | :07:00. | |
and it has got half a billion or more of Crossrail link being built | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
to it, which will help to get people to and from the city. The worries | :07:05. | :07:11. | |
about airport noise and pollution, those issues will be met. The | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
government has put strict stipulations on times of flights. | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
That was one of the areas that many campaigners thought it was the late, | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
because pollution concerns. You always got Boris Island was a mad | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
idea? No, but what we must remember is how far the Conservatives have | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
come. At the end of the last Labour administration, Jeff who made an | :07:37. | :07:38. | |
announcement that it would be Heathrow and then the Labour | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
government road back. The Conservatives in 2005 and 2006 said | :07:43. | :07:48. | |
it was only going to be rail capacity that would be driven and | :07:49. | :07:50. | |
they did not see any aviation increase. Boris in his time as Mayor | :07:51. | :07:57. | |
made the case for why they are needed to be an aviation capacity | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
increase in the and the Thames estuary was an option put forward. | :08:03. | :08:08. | |
Will it ever happen? We have talked about how long it has taken to get | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
to this point, a decision. It will not happen very soon in terms of | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
building work, will we see a third runway at Heathrow? We have got a | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
convergence of issues. We have a Prime Minister who has a vice like | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
grip on the Cabinet. Other Cabinet ministers are given scope to | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
undertake this, but there is a limited amount of criticism. We also | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
have a country that is looking in a post-Brexit and post-referendum era | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
and saying, how do we demonstrate our ability to trade? How do we | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
demonstrate we are still a powerful nation? We need some real power that | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
comes through, showing we can build and deliver things like this which | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
is crucial to our economy. I think it is the best time for it to get | :08:59. | :09:00. | |
The question for today is: The London Mayor, Sadiq Khan, | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
has landed a cameo role in which TV programme? | :09:07. | :09:08. | |
At the end of the show Kulveer will give us the right answer. | :09:09. | :09:21. | |
In a small meeting room in central London, a group of little-known men | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
and women are meeting right now to make a decision about the future | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
The Press Recognition Panel was established following the newspaper | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
hacking scandal which led to the closure of the News | :09:34. | :09:36. | |
At the heart of all this is the question of how | :09:37. | :09:42. | |
much should our press be regulated in a free society? | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
In 2011, following the phone hacking scandal, David Cameron set up | :09:47. | :09:49. | |
the Leveson Inquiry to examine the culture, ethics | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
Following Lord Leveson's recommendations, the government | :09:54. | :10:00. | |
enacted a Royal Charter which in turn set up | :10:01. | :10:03. | |
a Press Recognition Panel to choose a new press watchdog. | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
The terms of the Royal Charter can not be changed unless agreed | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
by a two thirds majority in both houses of Parliament. | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
So far only one organisation, called Impress, has applied | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
It has the backing of privacy campaigner Max Mosley and the author | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
Most of the big newspapers are opposed to what they see | :10:28. | :10:34. | |
as state regulation of the press, and instead set up their own rival | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
regulator, called Ipso, which won't apply to be | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
the officially recognised press regulator. | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
If Impress is approved by the Press Recognition Panel | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
today, section 40 of the Crime and Courts Act could be triggered | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
which means any publishers which don't sign up to Impress | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
would be forced to pay the legal costs of libel actions brought | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
against them, even if they win the case. | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
Newspapers, including the Sun and the Daily Mail, say this | :11:09. | :11:11. | |
is an affront to democracy and will encourage spurious claims. | :11:12. | :11:17. | |
Campaigners say Section 40 will ensure newspapers | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
are properly regulated and respect people's privacy. | :11:22. | :11:24. | |
We've been joined by Max Mosley, the former head of Formula One | :11:25. | :11:26. | |
who has been campaigning for more stringent regulation | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
of the press since the News of the World published stories | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
He later won a privacy court case against the newspaper. | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
He's a former deputy editor of the News of the World. | :11:39. | :11:44. | |
First of all, we understand the government is not intending to | :11:45. | :11:53. | |
implement legislation that would make the press liable for libel | :11:54. | :11:59. | |
costs, but it will be kicked into the long grass. Are you disappointed | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
with that? If that happens, I will be disappointed. At the moment if | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
you are on the victim of a libel or breach of privacy or harassment, | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
although sort of thing is, if you want to sue the newspaper, you have | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
to be buried rich. Very few people can risk ?1 million. The rest of the | :12:21. | :12:27. | |
population, more than 99%, I left with no recourse. The point of all | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
this legislation is there would be a recognised regulator which would | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
have an arbitrary system which the papers could use and the individual | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
could use and it would give access to justice. It is all about access | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
to justice. Without that stick, or without the ability to call on | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
section 40 of the act, do you think the regulator will be finished | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
before it has even started? No, I do not think so. Even if the government | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
decide they do not want to implement section 40, they will have to come | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
up with something. You cannot leave 99% of the population with no | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
redress if they are produced by the press. In that case, what is wrong | :13:12. | :13:19. | |
with the idea of Impress? There is already the other regulator, so what | :13:20. | :13:26. | |
is wrong with Impress? There are two issues, the inadequacies of Impress, | :13:27. | :13:37. | |
it is an axe grinding farce. Why? I will come onto that. Secondly there | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
is the background to it. It is the wholly bought property of Macs. Max | :13:42. | :13:52. | |
is bankrolling... This is fantasy. I am bankrolling a charity which | :13:53. | :14:00. | |
exists to bankroll a Levenson compliant regulator. It could be if | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
so, it could be anybody. They decide which potential regulator they are | :14:05. | :14:11. | |
going to... It is not true to say he is bankrolling this group because he | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
could be funding any regulator that is chosen by this independent panel. | :14:16. | :14:21. | |
It is all software history. The truth of the matter is that he set | :14:22. | :14:28. | |
up something called the Independent Press Regulation Trust and that is | :14:29. | :14:34. | |
bankrolling a bunch of like-minded, hacked off, and press campaigners to | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
the tune of just under ?1 million for four years. He is one of the | :14:40. | :14:47. | |
very few, and certainly the major provider, of funds for Impress. If | :14:48. | :14:55. | |
it is set up... It is setup, it is whether it will be official | :14:56. | :15:02. | |
regulator. In the contract I have seen and has been published, you can | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
withdraw funding from it at ten days' notice. The vital essence of | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
the need for a press regulator is for that to be independent. Why is | :15:11. | :15:17. | |
it not independent if it has been chosen by an independent panel? He | :15:18. | :15:23. | |
is paying for it. Are you saying he is bribing the panel? That is a more | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
complex issue about funding. But the significance of this is when Lord | :15:30. | :15:36. | |
Levenson called for an independent regulator, he said a couple of | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
things that were absolutely essential. He said the new system of | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
regulation should not be considered sufficiently effective if it does | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
not cover all significant news publishers. Impress has | :15:50. | :15:52. | |
approximately... You answer the claim that you are | :15:53. | :16:03. | |
somehow behind all of this and then we will come onto the support. What | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
it's all about is access to justice, the only thing that matters to me is | :16:08. | :16:14. | |
that... This is... Access to justice, ipso, for a start, is | :16:15. | :16:17. | |
completely own, completely controlled and played for by the | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
major newspapers. -- paid for it really is controlled. In this case | :16:23. | :16:27. | |
we have a person giving to a charity which in turn gives to a charity. | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
Don't interrupt, you have had your say, let me have mine. This is done | :16:33. | :16:42. | |
by an independent body. Impress has got all independent people. I don't | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
even know two of the three trustees involved in the charity. Impress is | :16:47. | :16:56. | |
completely independent. I run a charity which funds it, but in the | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
case of Ipso it is all paid for by the major newspapers and they can | :17:02. | :17:04. | |
cut it off, they can fire people, whatever. It is true, it has been | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
set up by news proprietors, when you are criticising Max Mosley for his | :17:10. | :17:15. | |
role in terms of Impress it is also true to say that Ipso was set up by | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
newspaper proprietors to be a self regulator, so this is something you | :17:21. | :17:23. | |
could argue in terms of sophistry, it is being run and funded by | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
newspapers. It is being run by newspapers, it is not being run by | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
newspapers. Certainly the finances and the people who are investing in | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
it, as it were, include the Berry Times, the Campbell packet, the | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
Newcastle Chronicle... 90% of newspapers in this country are | :17:43. | :17:51. | |
members of ipso. -- Bury Times. That is the problem. Let me put it to | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
you. One of the biggest problems is about trust in the regulator. People | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
will question the trust they might have in Ipso because it is run and | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
set by newspapers themselves, but Impress does not have enough support | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
from major contributors or newspapers or publications, it is | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
very small, so how are you going to command the trust of people like | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
Neil Wallis? The complaint of the major newspapers is that if impress | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
is recognised, there will be under pressure to join it, because then | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
they get the benefit of the independent arbitration which works | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
on both sides, plus, they have all the benefits for the smaller press. | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
Who at the moment, aren't properly protected. Small | :18:40. | :18:42. | |
small newspapers will die if this goes ahead. Nonsense. Why? If you | :18:43. | :18:49. | |
work for a small local newspaper, the vast majority, hundreds upon | :18:50. | :18:55. | |
hundreds, it is already a dreadful thing if you are sued for libel, | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
whether you win or not, it is it is immensely expensive. The problem, if | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
you bring this in and bring in section 40, somebody can spuriously | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
bring a libel action... This is the whole point. You have got to... Try | :19:10. | :19:19. | |
honesty... Talk about honesty, you work for the News of the World, you | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
must be joking! The reason is, when the small newspapers, if one of the | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
small newspapers at the moment upset somebody rich in the neighbourhood, | :19:29. | :19:31. | |
they can be sued, and it would put them out of business. Under Impress | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
and under the regulator, when you have cheap arbitration, that same | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
local newspaper can defend itself against a rich individual, if, when | :19:41. | :19:46. | |
Wallaroos, he has got to pay all the costs. Neil Wallis, what are you | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
frightened of, you have been given a choice, this was agreed by MPs, this | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
was passed, in the Houses of Parliament. And there is now a | :19:55. | :20:01. | |
choice for newspapers to sign up to Impress, let's say that they become | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
the recognised regulator, and then you don't pay or get landed with | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
punitive costs if you win a case that is brought against you. Surely | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
that is a fair choice? No, well, no, if you win a libel action, under | :20:17. | :20:22. | |
this scheme, you pay both sides of the libel action. Not if you have | :20:23. | :20:29. | |
signed up to the official regulator. The point is, and... There is a | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
choice, you just don't want to do either. The press recognition panel | :20:34. | :20:39. | |
is appointed by the government, the government therefore... The state is | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
deciding... That is not true, we will overlook it, but it is not | :20:46. | :20:52. | |
true. The state is interfering with the free press, which has been there | :20:53. | :20:58. | |
for 320 years, the result of this is going to be... But we have had... We | :20:59. | :21:05. | |
have had Lord Levy sin's enquiry. The world has moved on. The last | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
government decided it was not going to enforce this. There is a problem | :21:10. | :21:17. | |
here, there is a dilemma, facing the government, if they recognised | :21:18. | :21:19. | |
Impress, the onus is going to be on the newspapers who set up their own | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
regulator, Ipso, to sign up, and if they don't, then they are going to | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
be liable for costs which they say are Draconian, even if they win a | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
case brought against them. There is a fundamental problem, passionately | :21:34. | :21:36. | |
displayed by this debate, because it is about trust and it is about | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
influence. I am all for the great British free press, it is a Bastian, | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
a beacon to the world in terms of... Will it no longer be free? Trust | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
issue has been shaken by what we have seen, Ledson has tried to look | :21:52. | :22:04. | |
at that. -- both sides have challenges, because of where the | :22:05. | :22:06. | |
funding comes from. The government needs to look at that. -- bastion. | :22:07. | :22:12. | |
-- Leveson. It might do that by not committing to section 40 of the | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
crime and court at all Impress. We need to leave it there, thank you | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
very much. We were talking about Zac Goldsmith, Tory MP, who said he | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
would resign and force a by-election, he says he intends to | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
honour that commitment, in Richmond Park and Kingston north in protest | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
of the decision of the government to back a third runway at Heathrow. His | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
local Conservative Association has confirmed that. There will be a | :22:38. | :22:39. | |
by-election there. It's been another embarrassing month | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
for private providers One major company left | :22:44. | :22:45. | |
staff at a school in Another had their contract | :22:46. | :22:48. | |
to allocate tax credits when the private sector was going | :22:49. | :22:51. | |
to make everything more efficient? In a moment I'll discuss that | :22:52. | :22:57. | |
with our guest of the day, Kulveer Ranger, and the Shadow Work | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
and PensionS Secretary The government contracting for | :23:02. | :23:14. | |
public services is big is knit and getting bigger, to show you how big, | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
we will outsource our graphics, two members of the public. We are trying | :23:19. | :23:26. | |
to outsource our graphics. I haven't got a clue...! Let's see... The | :23:27. | :23:35. | |
government now spends about 98 billion on outsourcing of privately | :23:36. | :23:43. | |
run public services. A year. A year. Can we ask you to help us with our | :23:44. | :23:50. | |
graphics. Around ?1 in every ?3 of taxpayer money spent on public | :23:51. | :23:53. | |
services goes to non-public sector providers. Is that a good headline? | :23:54. | :23:59. | |
For me to put on that paper, that would be rubbish! It might not make | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
a good headline, but it is a lot of money, what is it spent on? Mainly | :24:04. | :24:10. | |
it is spent on health, defence, justice, transport, and welfare. You | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
are a natural! LAUGHTER Thank you! Actually, I am quite shy! | :24:16. | :24:22. | |
Governments have for years contacted at a range of straightforward and | :24:23. | :24:25. | |
sensitive public services for a number of reasons. The good reasons | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
are, there is people out there who can provide a service better than | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
government can provide it itself, more efficient and effective and at | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
a better price, that might be a good reason to outsource something. | :24:39. | :24:41. | |
Sometimes it is done for bad reasons, people in central | :24:42. | :24:43. | |
government think, we just need to get the costs down. If that is the | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
main driver, the first driver, it is not that likely to work. Terribly | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
well. Lord Francis Maude, Minister for the Cabinet Office in the last | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
coalition government, oversaw a mini transformation of public service | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
providers turning private, to boost the productivity of the state sector | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
work. I used to visit these, and ask people, would you go back and work | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
for the government, the NHS, Council, whatever. Never had anyone | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
say anything other than, no. Why not, because they can do things, | :25:15. | :25:20. | |
free from bureaucracy. We saw productivity go up in leaps and | :25:21. | :25:24. | |
bounds, almost literally overnight. Despite the so-called mutuals, world | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
of outsource public contracts is still dominated by a few large | :25:30. | :25:32. | |
private companies, which have mastered the art of bidding for | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
them. And projects regularly suffer from week contract management. The | :25:37. | :25:43. | |
policy of people, permanent secretaries, by and large, not as | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
close of, and the people who run big operations in government are the | :25:48. | :25:50. | |
blue-collar people, they always have to remain a bit below the sword, and | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
that is wrong. Spectacular failures have made alarming headlines. | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
Tonight at ten, the security companies accused of massively | :26:01. | :26:03. | |
overcharging the taxpayer for tagging criminals. Also tonight... | :26:04. | :26:09. | |
The focus of protests, now at us, the company running the fitness to | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
work tests, asked to end their contract early. -- Atos. VOICEOVER: | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
It is supposed to be the nation's great global games, that it is | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
protected by eight web security firm accused of letting down the country. | :26:23. | :26:30. | |
The computer was meant to integrate medical records across is the | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
juicing. It was a real train crash, I watched it burn taxpayer cash and | :26:36. | :26:42. | |
it still is not finished, even though the government announced in | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
2011 they were dispensing with it, it is still going on. This goes back | :26:47. | :26:52. | |
to how you write contracts in the first buys, billions has been spent | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
to no avail. MPs complained, contractors often overpromise and | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
under deliver, proper scrutiny from government still lacking. | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
We've been joined by Labour's Shadow Work | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
and Pensions Secretary, Debbie Abrahams. | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
And of course Kulveer Ranger is still with us. | :27:18. | :27:19. | |
He's head of public affairs for ATOS, which has over half | :27:20. | :27:22. | |
a billion pounds' worth of contracts with the government. | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
Atos has come in for criticism for failing to deliver, it has not been | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
a great advert for government outsourcing. In the context of | :27:32. | :27:34. | |
government outsourcing and where that has evolved, we believe that we | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
deliver value for money, the Cabinet Office review said that this summer, | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
it went so far as to say that we go beyond some of the requirements. | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
Over the last 20 years I have been involved in public and private | :27:49. | :27:50. | |
sector partnerships, delivering major infrastructure services. I was | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
very fortunate to be involved in delivering the Oyster card, PFI, | :27:56. | :27:58. | |
that came to deliver some technology. The vast majority of | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
work that the private sector does does not get the positive | :28:04. | :28:09. | |
recognition. That may be the majority, but these are not | :28:10. | :28:12. | |
insignificant failures of Atos, at the time it was handling the work | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
capability assessment, tens of thousands of sick and disabled | :28:17. | :28:18. | |
people were wrongly assessed as being fit for work. You can imagine | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
the suffering that causes those people while you are looking at it | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
from a bureaucratic, technocratic view, these are real people. Your | :28:27. | :28:29. | |
assessment were described as farcical after you decided that | :28:30. | :28:35. | |
people with lifelong diseases like Parkinson's would be better and | :28:36. | :28:38. | |
available to work, how did you get it wrong? Everyone has learned from | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
those mistakes, the challenge for people in public and private, have | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
you learn from those mistakes, when dealing with services and making | :28:47. | :28:49. | |
sure the right result is delivered, you handle those properly. If you | :28:50. | :28:54. | |
are delivering services such as delivering the integration IT for | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
the Olympic Games, running the BBC, services for departments across | :28:59. | :29:01. | |
government, in the private sector as well, we make sure services get | :29:02. | :29:03. | |
delivered in the way that they best benefit people. The idea here is to | :29:04. | :29:09. | |
learn. The generation of partnership between government and private | :29:10. | :29:14. | |
sector. Do companies like Atos, have they learned? I'm not so sure but we | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
must bring in the government as well, they have culpability in terms | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
of the contract they have awarded, since 2010, they have doubled to ?88 | :29:23. | :29:28. | |
billion. We need to be able to demonstrate that there is value for | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
money for the taxpayer. As you rightly pointed out, in terms of | :29:33. | :29:36. | |
things like the work capability assessment, such is the personal | :29:37. | :29:42. | |
independent payment process, Atos is still involved in that, there are | :29:43. | :29:45. | |
huge issues with these processes. What issues are there, we can put | :29:46. | :29:51. | |
them... The point you raised before, in terms of the accuracy. | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
Unfortunately, when the contract are set up, performance management of | :29:57. | :29:59. | |
them, it is about getting claimants off flow. That is what is driving | :30:00. | :30:06. | |
them. Atos has responsibility but it is not just that. Let's pick up your | :30:07. | :30:13. | |
point about the principle behind this, is Labour actually against the | :30:14. | :30:15. | |
idea of outsourcing government contract? We should not be saying | :30:16. | :30:22. | |
private, bad, public, good, or vice versa. Are you saying private bad? | :30:23. | :30:29. | |
No, I have never said that. I have said there is particular issues. You | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
said they have doubled, you have said... My point... My point was | :30:34. | :30:41. | |
that... My point was that the government decides these contracts, | :30:42. | :30:44. | |
awards these contracts, it is an ideological approach that the | :30:45. | :30:47. | |
government has taken, not just with employment support, and work | :30:48. | :30:54. | |
capability assessments, fit for work, but also with health care, | :30:55. | :30:57. | |
looking at the 2012 health and social care, all of that, | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
privatisation act and it was given in that direction. Ideological with | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
the last Labour government who first gave the contracts? | :31:06. | :31:12. | |
What about the last Labour government? They gave contract out. | :31:13. | :31:22. | |
We did not get it right. They now believe it is not fit for purpose. | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
Under Jeremy Corbyn Labour will not pursue these sorts of contracts in | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
the way they did before 2010. We want to replace it with a holistic, | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
Person centred approach, looking at their needs, whether they are skills | :31:38. | :31:41. | |
related, health and care or housing and transport. Can you deliver a | :31:42. | :31:48. | |
holistic approach to this? The key to this is to work with government | :31:49. | :31:51. | |
and understand their requirements and to help deliver the best outputs | :31:52. | :31:57. | |
for the people. We are in the Europe, this is the key proper | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
technology perspective, is we see new services that can be designed | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
and new ways for governments to deliver better outcomes for people | :32:07. | :32:09. | |
and we need a new industrial strategy that this government wants | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
to set up. It will help care, the services and the front line. But the | :32:16. | :32:21. | |
track record is not good. It may be improving, but it has not been good. | :32:22. | :32:26. | |
Debbie Abrahams raises an important point, in the end if you are dealing | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
with these sorts of issues in terms of payments to disabled people or | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
tax credit claims, if there is a profit motive at the heart of the | :32:36. | :32:40. | |
operation, that surely does encourage by its very nature | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
cost-cutting at the expense of a holistic, fair assessment of the | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
person. What you and Debbie I demonstrating very well is now the | :32:50. | :32:52. | |
private sector is equally responsible for the government to | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
implement government policy and we take that very seriously to say we | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
care about the services we are delivering because we are the ones | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
associated with it. But profit is still the most important? You have | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
to deliver a value to the government, to the taxpayer and the | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
shareholders. But you do not see any major organisations who do outsource | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
various parts of their organisations, whether it be private | :33:20. | :33:25. | |
sector companies or the IOC, saying we can do it ourselves, they are | :33:26. | :33:28. | |
looking for good and trusted partners to help deliver the | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
services. You cannot do without the private sector, whether you are | :33:34. | :33:36. | |
delivering tax credits or independence payments to people on | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
benefits. Surely the private sector has to be involved? We have not said | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
anything about the third sector and during the summer I visited a whole | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
niche of charities such as those delivering support to homeless | :33:51. | :33:56. | |
people, those enabling work and giving support to disabled people, | :33:57. | :34:01. | |
making a huge difference, and we need more of that type of approach | :34:02. | :34:07. | |
as well. In terms of the government outsourcing to the private sector, | :34:08. | :34:12. | |
it has doubled to ?88 million during the coalition years according to the | :34:13. | :34:15. | |
Financial Times. Has that gone too far? The whole thing is about value. | :34:16. | :34:22. | |
We still have a government structure from Victorian times with massive | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
departments with thousands of people working in their not sharing | :34:27. | :34:33. | |
information. We are entering into a technology world where people | :34:34. | :34:36. | |
experience the way they deal with banks, businesses, food being | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
delivered to their door, and the relationship between the state and | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
the citizen will be changed through the prism of technology. We will see | :34:45. | :34:51. | |
a real change and there will be more private sector involvement, but | :34:52. | :34:54. | |
fundamentally focus on value for money and the citizen. We have to | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
So, just before we came on air transport secretary Chris Grayling | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
confirmed that the government would support a third | :35:03. | :35:04. | |
But not all his colleagues on the Conservative benches | :35:05. | :35:07. | |
Zac Goldsmith has told his constituency that he intends to | :35:08. | :35:19. | |
honour his pledge to resign and for a by-election. | :35:20. | :35:20. | |
Dr Tania Mathias, explaining her opposition to Heathrow expansion. | :35:21. | :35:26. | |
I am appalled by the decision, but for myself and my constituents I | :35:27. | :35:36. | |
still believe Heathrow expansion will not happen, I believe it is not | :35:37. | :35:42. | |
deliverable. I expect there will be consultation and scrutiny and the | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
facts will bear out and we will find out Heathrow cannot expand. It is | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
too costly, it cannot be done in the time period, there will be legal | :35:52. | :35:55. | |
challenges and the pollution aspect are becoming clearer and clearer, | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
month by month, so it just will not happen. | :36:00. | :35:59. | |
We've been joined by the co-leader of the Green Party, | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
Jonathan Bartley, and by the Labour MP Gavin Shuker. | :36:05. | :36:06. | |
Gavin, I understand you have been trying to coordinate the response of | :36:07. | :36:23. | |
Labour MPs. Well most of them backed the decision? I think they will, I | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
think the majority of Labour MPs wanted a decision and now we have | :36:28. | :36:33. | |
got it and the majority favoured Heathrow. It will be better for us | :36:34. | :36:40. | |
as a party to be clear about it. Do you think there will be a free vote? | :36:41. | :36:46. | |
We know John McDonnell, he is a long-standing opponent of expansion | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
at Heathrow, and the leader Jeremy Corbyn do not want this, so what | :36:52. | :36:57. | |
will the line be? We are waiting to find out. Our Shadow Transport | :36:58. | :37:00. | |
Secretary was very clear that he was edging towards a decision on | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
Heathrow. But the party having a decision on Heathrow does not | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
preclude individual constituency MPs from representing their constituents | :37:11. | :37:17. | |
on the issues that they feel strongly about. But it is important | :37:18. | :37:20. | |
for the British public to know where the Labour Party stands. But you | :37:21. | :37:26. | |
cannot seem to get the complete consensus on both sides. Were you | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
supporting one of the other three options being put forward or are you | :37:31. | :37:36. | |
just against all airport expansion? It is disappointing to see Labour | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
lining up with the government on this. We cannot expand aviation if | :37:41. | :37:44. | |
we are to meet our climate change targets. You think it is impossible | :37:45. | :37:51. | |
to meet those targets? This drives a wrecking ball through those targets. | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
We have to look at the demand for aviation and we have to bring it | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
down. It is not about people taking a family holiday, it is 70% of | :38:00. | :38:05. | |
flights taken by 15% of the population, frequent flights, and we | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
need a levy to bring it down. You believe we can meet those targets, | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
how can you both be right? We cannot be and I am, actually. That is OK | :38:16. | :38:21. | |
then. They do not take my word for it. Take the airports commission, | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
take the bodies that we charged with meeting our budgets. There is an | :38:26. | :38:34. | |
economic case. If we do that, we cannot meet our carbon climate | :38:35. | :38:42. | |
change budgets and targets. What makes you convinced we cannot? It is | :38:43. | :38:49. | |
based on such flimsy evidence. They did not even agree with the | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
transport Department over carbon emissions. This has been the result | :38:54. | :38:58. | |
of huge lobbying by airports who want to make a lot of money. It is | :38:59. | :39:03. | |
not about economic growth, that will be minimal. It does not tackle the | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
underlying issues, that we have to tackle our climate change targets. | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
There is look at deliverability. Will it happen? Yes, it will, but it | :39:12. | :39:17. | |
requires clear targets from government and it is up to both | :39:18. | :39:22. | |
parties to make sure it does. You think the Labour Party will fall in | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
line. Will it happen or will it be held up by those who are preparing | :39:28. | :39:31. | |
legal arguments against it? Would it be there? We will have to go through | :39:32. | :39:37. | |
a number of different stages and the government has laid out how they | :39:38. | :39:40. | |
believe it should go about this, but if you are asking me if I think by | :39:41. | :39:49. | |
2030, the government's deadline, that a third runway will be in place | :39:50. | :39:53. | |
for that? I think it will be, but we have to make tough decisions to | :39:54. | :40:00. | |
deliver it. I'm saying is that it's an argument. In terms of people | :40:01. | :40:15. | |
living near the airport, and the stop when you look at the figures in | :40:16. | :40:19. | |
the Airport Commission report it said about ?11 billion benefit over | :40:20. | :40:27. | |
a third of a cup of copy of everyone who comes through Heathrow. For all | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
those people who will have their quality of life destroyed, new roads | :40:33. | :40:37. | |
are put through their area, maybe using new homes, that is something | :40:38. | :40:41. | |
they are not calling for. Are we going to see months and months of | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
wrangling before Heathrow can even start to be built? A 12 month period | :40:46. | :40:51. | |
has been set out by government, said that is a clear period of time of | :40:52. | :40:59. | |
discussion. What we have on the delivery, if this Prime Minister and | :41:00. | :41:02. | |
government stake in place for a significant period of time, this | :41:03. | :41:05. | |
airport will have to happen. The case has been made and even the | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
previous Labour government got the point where they said it has to | :41:11. | :41:15. | |
Heathrow. But it did not happen. They made the case right at the end | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
of their time in office and that is not the best point, especially when | :41:20. | :41:25. | |
you lose an election. But how do we get the rest of the country to see | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
the value of Heathrow? The conversation that has held up | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
Heathrow has been focused on the impact. The pollution conversation, | :41:35. | :41:40. | |
when we look at the impact of pollution right now from the planes | :41:41. | :41:43. | |
having to circle London because they cannot get their slots, that needs | :41:44. | :41:50. | |
work. You are saying how do you convince the country and the people | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
around? This is a protest outside the houses of parliament today. Are | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
we just going to see months and months of this going on while the | :42:01. | :42:07. | |
political arguments are being made? I am sure we will see a huge range | :42:08. | :42:11. | |
of protests around Heathrow and by those activists there. All those | :42:12. | :42:17. | |
people represented by Unite and GMB want this and he argued there will | :42:18. | :42:21. | |
be protests is an insufficient one to prevent the government from | :42:22. | :42:26. | |
making a decision. It is not just protest, it is about legal | :42:27. | :42:28. | |
challenges and the government tearing up the climate change act. | :42:29. | :42:32. | |
There will be legal challenges on that. They have had plenty of time | :42:33. | :42:38. | |
to think about it this year and it is part of the process. One of the | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
problems for Labour is that the Mayor of London said a government | :42:43. | :42:49. | |
decision taken to day on Heathrow was wrong with a capital and he will | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
continue to talk about his opposition for the project. How | :42:55. | :43:00. | |
difficult is it for Labour? It is as difficult for us as it is for Boris | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
Johnson and Justine Greening being against it in the Cabinet. But we | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
need to get on with it. We'll Boris Johnson lie in front of those | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
bulldozers? I was watching the video to see if he was lying there. He has | :43:15. | :43:22. | |
made his position clear. Sadiq Khan, the Mayor, needs to see what is best | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
for London. He is building Crossrail and it has a direct link to | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
Heathrow. It was put in to ensure capacity for Heathrow. He needs to | :43:33. | :43:36. | |
have a conversation about collectivity and what is best for | :43:37. | :43:39. | |
Heathrow and for this country in an economic sense. I am going to say | :43:40. | :43:42. | |
thank you to all of you. I am going to say thank | :43:43. | :43:43. | |
you to all of you. With financial pressures bearing | :43:44. | :43:46. | |
down on the NHS in England, the government has been looking | :43:47. | :43:48. | |
at how to bring down Yesterday, the Health Secretary | :43:49. | :43:51. | |
Jeremy Hunt told the House of Commons that a new approach | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
to working with big pharmaceutical companies could deliver huge savings | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
and get cutting-edge drugs This government is committed | :44:00. | :44:01. | |
to ensuring that patients get access to innovative and cost effective | :44:02. | :44:09. | |
medicines as quickly as possible. I want to pay tribute to the work | :44:10. | :44:12. | |
carried out by my honourable friend the member for Mid Norfolk | :44:13. | :44:15. | |
who worked tirelessly in government to promote | :44:16. | :44:17. | |
the life sciences industry, and who established the accelerated | :44:18. | :44:20. | |
access review to provide clear recommendations on how | :44:21. | :44:22. | |
the government, the NHS and industry can work together to ensure patients | :44:23. | :44:25. | |
benefit from transformative That review is published today | :44:26. | :44:28. | |
and is an excellent document which challenges everyone in the | :44:29. | :44:35. | |
medicine system to up their game. Jeremy Hunt speaking | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
during the second reading of the Health Service Medical | :44:41. | :44:43. | |
Supplies Bill yesterday. We've been joined by | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
the former Life Sciences This is about streamlining NHS | :44:48. | :44:59. | |
processes and according to figures, the NHS drugs bill has gone up by 8% | :45:00. | :45:06. | |
in England to ?15.5 billion, despite a cap at 12 billion pounds, so it | :45:07. | :45:12. | |
has exceeded it. Is the NHS drugs bill too high or too low? In my view | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
the NHS is under extraordinary pressure from the pace of | :45:18. | :45:26. | |
developments in the life sciences industry, people living longer, | :45:27. | :45:29. | |
incredible life expectancy gains, breast cancer is curable and now | :45:30. | :45:35. | |
with you immune therapy is their IQ is for cancer. The issue is we are | :45:36. | :45:40. | |
facing extraordinary rises in the cost. Individual drugs cost 250,000 | :45:41. | :45:42. | |
a year. It is not about blame, it is about a | :45:43. | :45:53. | |
new model. The NHS is the world's only universal health system, with | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
the research infrastructure to be a partner in developing these drugs, | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
these new drugs, and the idea is, by using genetics and data and research | :46:03. | :46:05. | |
excellence, we will be the first place in the world where these new | :46:06. | :46:10. | |
drugs are targeted, and we get a discount or even a royalty. Is it | :46:11. | :46:17. | |
affordable? If you say... It saves money. Does it, in the long term... | :46:18. | :46:24. | |
If it keeps climbing, in what way is it affordable? Nobody expects the | :46:25. | :46:33. | |
cost of medicine in an ageing society to go down, but what we are | :46:34. | :46:37. | |
doing is making sure the NHS get more value back from research | :46:38. | :46:39. | |
structure, so the rate of the increased flat and is up. So we can | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
get new drugs quickly to patients and we can get a discounted price | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
and or even royalties. The pharmaceutical Journal, has risen by | :46:48. | :46:54. | |
59.8% over the past four years, even taking into account your tailoring | :46:55. | :47:00. | |
off in however many years' time, how is the government going to square | :47:01. | :47:03. | |
the still rising cost of medicine while asking the NHS to make savings | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
to the tune of ?22 billion? The BMA says it is mad. There is measures in | :47:09. | :47:17. | |
place, in terms of drugs, the pharmacy reforms, reducing the cost | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
of dispensing drugs and processing drugs, but this reform, accelerated | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
access, goes right to the heart of it, allowing us to fundamentally | :47:26. | :47:28. | |
reduce the cost and time cost of developing medicines. Imagine the | :47:29. | :47:33. | |
NHS today, nice is recommending some drugs, the NHS is very slowly | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
fermenting recommendations, this transforms it, allowing us to pull | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
them in quickly, that is the most valuable thing that we can give | :47:43. | :47:47. | |
industry, early access. -- implementing recommendations. And | :47:48. | :47:50. | |
then over time we will be paid a royalty. You keep mentioning that, | :47:51. | :47:54. | |
you are very pleased about it. You should be as well, we will get drugs | :47:55. | :47:58. | |
farm or cheaply. Should you be worried about the relationship with | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
pharmaceutical companies, are you bound to pressure? Not at all, it is | :48:03. | :48:06. | |
going through a transformation, the way the drugs are developed is | :48:07. | :48:09. | |
changing, a lot of those changes are led in this country and we are | :48:10. | :48:12. | |
having to redesign the way the industry works with the NHS, we | :48:13. | :48:15. | |
would not have any of these drugs without the life science industry, | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
great industry, but we cannot expect to produce ever more expensive | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
medicines or us in a universal tax payer system to buy them at retail | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
prices. This is a unique way of saying we have a unique asset in the | :48:29. | :48:33. | |
NHS, and we will give businesses reason to come to the NHS, to the | :48:34. | :48:40. | |
UK, and give cheaper drug. When it comes to medical advances the NHS | :48:41. | :48:43. | |
has a reputation for lagging behind, have patients been missing out up | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
until now for the best and most innovative treatments for things | :48:48. | :48:50. | |
like cancer. We have slowly come in the last couple of decades, the UK | :48:51. | :48:54. | |
has moved from being right at the vanguard, we have slipped down the | :48:55. | :48:59. | |
league tables, this reform is about, particularly in cancer, that is | :49:00. | :49:02. | |
partly because type of drugs coming through our very different. This is | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
an admission that the UK has lagged behind, why hasn't the government | :49:08. | :49:11. | |
done anything about it. This has been going on for some time. We have | :49:12. | :49:15. | |
been lagging behind, we have set up research fund into drugs that nice | :49:16. | :49:21. | |
were saying no to, but we are leading the world as a research | :49:22. | :49:25. | |
engine, and the NHS helping to get quick access to patients to new | :49:26. | :49:29. | |
medicines, and a deal that we can afford. That is the big reform. Is | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
that a good idea, actually cutting the waiting time for new drugs, in | :49:34. | :49:39. | |
your mind is that going to be safe for patients? Sounds to me like we | :49:40. | :49:42. | |
have fallen down in the pecking order in how well the health service | :49:43. | :49:45. | |
has been performing in terms of other parts of the world but we are | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
trying to address is to teach each challenge within the supply chain of | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
the NHS with this idea. I think that we should cautiously welcome it, if | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
it does do what it is trying to do, which is deliver better value, early | :49:59. | :50:01. | |
engagement with those people that are developing the drugs we need, we | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
still have the increasing burden of an ageing population more demands on | :50:06. | :50:13. | |
the NHS. There is a difficult opposition, supply chain management | :50:14. | :50:15. | |
issue, which if it can deliver both value for money and the quality of | :50:16. | :50:19. | |
the product which enhances lives of people in terms of better results | :50:20. | :50:22. | |
then I think we have got to see how it works out. The new hepatitis C | :50:23. | :50:28. | |
drugs that are coming, the NHS is buying them, they cost a fortune, | :50:29. | :50:31. | |
the Italians bought them first and discovered that a large number of | :50:32. | :50:35. | |
patients don't need a full 12 week course, it is a genetic | :50:36. | :50:38. | |
predisposition. I would like us to discover that and get the benefit of | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
the saving. Stay with us. More from you. | :50:43. | :50:50. | |
The city of Nottingham has been making its voice heard here in | :50:51. | :51:09. | |
Westminster today - because the 25th of October is... Nottingham in | :51:10. | :51:10. | |
Parliament Day. Sounds exciting doesn't it? One of the many events | :51:11. | :51:13. | |
was a real life science experiment, conducted by Nottingham University's | :51:14. | :51:15. | |
chemistry supremo Professor Martyn Poliakoff - we'll talk to him in a | :51:16. | :51:17. | |
moment - and the Science Minister, Joe Johnson. But can you mix | :51:18. | :51:20. | |
politics and science? We sent Ellie to find out. | :51:21. | :51:21. | |
So, we talk a lot about how politics is an art, but how | :51:22. | :51:24. | |
Happily, I found a politician and a scientist. | :51:25. | :51:27. | |
Well, I'm here with Professor Martin Poliakoff from the University | :51:28. | :51:32. | |
of Nottingham who is going to demonstrate the effect | :51:33. | :51:34. | |
of increasing carbon dioxide and the acidification effect | :51:35. | :51:36. | |
In front of us? Right now in front of us. | :51:37. | :51:40. | |
What exactly is going to happen then? | :51:41. | :51:42. | |
What we have here is some water which has an indicator in it | :51:43. | :51:46. | |
which changes colour when acid is put in and we are putting | :51:47. | :51:49. | |
in carbon dioxide which we are putting in as a solid. | :51:50. | :51:51. | |
As it dissolves, the colour changes and you can see it goes | :51:52. | :51:54. | |
quite yellow, which is indicating that it is acid. | :51:55. | :51:57. | |
And the... It won't explode. | :51:58. | :52:05. | |
I'm fairly confident it won't explode. | :52:06. | :52:06. | |
And the minister is now going to add some coral. | :52:07. | :52:14. | |
This delicious Fanta concoction we have just made. | :52:15. | :52:32. | |
This will show that if you have got a calcium shell, | :52:33. | :52:34. | |
like a bit of coral, you are gradually, very | :52:35. | :52:37. | |
slowly, going to dissolve in this acidified... | :52:38. | :52:38. | |
Your role in this? Look, there it is, bubbling around. | :52:39. | :52:43. | |
It all looks rather impressive, but obviously there is a bit | :52:44. | :52:46. | |
This shows why it is so important to control the amount of carbon | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
dioxide in the atmosphere which is getting caught | :52:52. | :52:53. | |
in our oceans and making the oceans increasingly acidified. | :52:54. | :52:55. | |
Even a small increase in acidity over time will effect | :52:56. | :52:57. | |
the organisms because the change is happening much faster | :52:58. | :53:00. | |
Because it is based on physical chemistry, | :53:01. | :53:03. | |
the rate at which things dissolve, then it is not clear | :53:04. | :53:05. | |
that the animals could ever evolve to cope with this larger | :53:06. | :53:08. | |
It certainly gives you something to think about as a politician. | :53:09. | :53:19. | |
It certainly does. I am liking the white jacket. | :53:20. | :53:22. | |
Yes, thank you very much, courtesy of Nottingham | :53:23. | :53:24. | |
which I visited yesterday to see the extraordinary university there. | :53:25. | :53:27. | |
It is at the cutting edge of so much that is at the heart | :53:28. | :53:31. | |
of our education system and I am delighted that Nottingham | :53:32. | :53:33. | |
in Parliament today is demonstrating that to a wider audience. | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
Excellent, and bringing interesting science to Westminster. | :53:38. | :53:41. | |
It is fantastically important to communicate that science | :53:42. | :53:43. | |
is helping us to address these global issues in this way. | :53:44. | :53:46. | |
Excellent, chaps, thank you very much. | :53:47. | :53:47. | |
All that is left for me to tell you is the most interesting thing | :53:48. | :53:51. | |
about chemistry that I remember is the atomic number of zinc is 30. | :53:52. | :54:00. | |
I'm very impressed that you remember that, very exciting me, I have got a | :54:01. | :54:07. | |
bubbling potion in front of me... I don't want any jokes about witches! | :54:08. | :54:11. | |
I thought it might be my cocktail hour! I'm not going to try that. | :54:12. | :54:15. | |
Professor Martyn Poliakoff has joined us in the studio. | :54:16. | :54:19. | |
Tell us again what this demonstrates. This tube contains | :54:20. | :54:25. | |
water with an indicator that changes colour from alkaline to acid. We | :54:26. | :54:33. | |
have dropped in solid carbon dioxide which has made the solution acid. It | :54:34. | :54:38. | |
is orange. I demonstrated to the Minister with some vinegar, to | :54:39. | :54:42. | |
convince him that the indicator works with acid. The idea is to show | :54:43. | :54:47. | |
that when CO2 dissolves in water, it increases the acidity, and | :54:48. | :54:57. | |
therefore, if you have organisms like shells and coral, then you can | :54:58. | :55:00. | |
see we have a bit of coral here. Scottish coral. What was the point | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
of view doing this with the minister outside Parliament? What point are | :55:06. | :55:11. | |
you trying to make? We are trying to demonstrate that with increasing CO2 | :55:12. | :55:15. | |
levels in the atmosphere, it is making the Seymour acid. Not a huge | :55:16. | :55:20. | |
increase in acidity but enough to start affecting the organisms. And, | :55:21. | :55:24. | |
if you increase the solubility of the calcium carbonate, that makes | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
the shelves, then it is difficult for the organisms to start forming | :55:30. | :55:37. | |
their shells. How worried should we be? They are enough to be | :55:38. | :55:41. | |
concerning, it is not a huge rise in acidity but it is enough to have | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
three times as many hydrogen irons, three times the strength, as it | :55:46. | :55:50. | |
would have been without the extra CO2. -- ions. The problem is that it | :55:51. | :55:57. | |
is happening rapidly, the organisms do not have time to evolve and | :55:58. | :56:02. | |
change behaviour and chemistry. Are you convinced something needs to be | :56:03. | :56:04. | |
done about the effect of climate change, that it is having on the | :56:05. | :56:11. | |
oceans? Yes, and one of the things we are doing in this country, we are | :56:12. | :56:15. | |
a science superpower, not military, but in science, in medicine, in | :56:16. | :56:20. | |
food, we are a superpower, we can help the world develop sustainably. | :56:21. | :56:26. | |
We are helping Martin, we are helping lean tech and biotech and | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
chemical sciences. And through the industrial strategy, which we will | :56:31. | :56:34. | |
be unveiling shortly, you will see a robust approach to taking signs and | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
making a global impact. Are these kind of days, Nottingham in | :56:40. | :56:42. | |
Parliament date, are they important to representing and it's pressing | :56:43. | :56:45. | |
the things about which you are passionate? It is very important, it | :56:46. | :56:50. | |
is important to talk with policymakers. -- impressing the | :56:51. | :56:54. | |
things. It is important, science and the economy, to the region, | :56:55. | :57:00. | |
Nottingham, but also to show that science is fun and enjoyable. And it | :57:01. | :57:05. | |
is great fun, having this in here, I presume it won't explode, is the | :57:06. | :57:11. | |
government is doing enough? The government, in principle, is | :57:12. | :57:14. | |
supportive, we have the Autumn Statement, coming up shortly. We | :57:15. | :57:20. | |
hope to demonstrate whether or not you are actually supportive. What we | :57:21. | :57:27. | |
really need is an increased investment in science, why was | :57:28. | :57:31. | |
saying to the Minister, Joe Johnson, that we need to put more money into | :57:32. | :57:38. | |
the training of technicians. Technicians are the real support for | :57:39. | :57:44. | |
researchers at universities, and the problem is, they are getting older, | :57:45. | :57:48. | |
and we are not feeding in a new generation fast enough to replace | :57:49. | :57:53. | |
people. Really well-made point, as well as the scientists, the eminent | :57:54. | :57:57. | |
scientists behind all this, there is a whole supply chain of technicians, | :57:58. | :58:01. | |
mechanical engineers, people who take science into the workplace. | :58:02. | :58:05. | |
Through our industrial strategy, we want to make sure we are investing | :58:06. | :58:08. | |
in the skill base so that everyone can take part in this incredibly | :58:09. | :58:12. | |
exciting economy. Thank you for coming in and demonstrating the | :58:13. | :58:16. | |
experiment, we were going to try to do another one, we do not have the | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
time, because we need to find out the answer to the quiz. That is | :58:21. | :58:22. | |
where you come in. has landed a cameo role | :58:23. | :58:26. | |
in which TV programme? Is it a) Doctor Who | :58:27. | :58:33. | |
b) Citizen Khan c) Luther | :58:34. | :58:34. | |
or d) Fleabag? So Kulveer, | :58:35. | :58:36. | |
what's the correct answer? I have no idea, so I am going to go | :58:37. | :58:38. | |
with Fleabag. But it is based in Birmingham! Why | :58:39. | :58:52. | |
cant... He's the Mayor of London, why is he in a show that is based | :58:53. | :58:54. | |
Birmingham? LAUGHTER The London Mayor plays a cricket | :58:55. | :58:56. | |
match spectator who gets mistaken for someone else and gets | :58:57. | :58:59. | |
nicked by the police. They have something on me | :59:00. | :59:00. | |
that I can actually remember. The final chapter between | :59:01. | :59:05. | |
Gibson and Spector. | :59:06. | :59:10. |