18/11/2016 Daily Politics


18/11/2016

Andrew Neil is joined by Guardian columnist Rafael Behr and Rachel Sylvester from the Times to discuss Theresa May's meeting with President Obama and Chancellor Merkel in Berlin.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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Theresa May meets Barack Obama, Angela Merkel and other European

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leaders in Berlin for talks on Russia, Isis and trade.

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Should sanctions against Russia be extended, or now that Donald Trump

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is moving into the White House, should we follow his lead and

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Would UK trade be better or worse off if we leave

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After Boris Johnson says we'll "probably" leave it,

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And as Barack Obama finishes off his farewell tour of Europe,

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we'll discuss the President's legacy.

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All that in the next hour and with us for the whole programme today,

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the Guardian's Rafael Behr, and Rachel Sylvester,

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Now, the Prime Minister is in Berlin today

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for meetings with Barack Obama, Angela Merkel, Francois Hollande

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They're expected to discuss Donald Trump's election

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That is fascinating, captivating, and in some cases threatening

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everybody. For the latest, we're

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joined from Berlin by our Diplomatic Correspondent,

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James Landale. James, said the scene for us, what

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are they hoping to achieve today? This is one of the summits were you

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can't have a proper conversation, just six people around the table and

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only one or two officials, so unlike the G20 this is when leaders can't

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have a proper conversation, they may be addressing the issues like how to

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counter Islamic terrorism and deal with Syria and obviously Russia and

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Ukraine yet overlaying this is the election of Donald Trump. This is

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one of those meetings where it is the first chance for European

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leaders to have face to based talks and ask how we respond to that. And

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the underlying tension is that on one hand they want to respond to

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populist forces and acknowledge them, yet at the same time say, we

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need to lay down some barriers and some lines in the sand over key

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foreign policy issues, of which the most important is America's attitude

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to Russia. So the message we will get today is one saying, sanctions

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against Russia over Ukraine must be maintained. They come up for renewal

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next month so I think they'll want to say to the Americans, Europe

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stands firm on this because one or two European leaders are a bit

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softer on this for example the Italians so they'll want to get the

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Italian leader on site to present a united front on that. They'll have a

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problem because of the changing of the guard in the US. They cannot

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really determine their future policy towards Russia until they know what

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Donald Trump's policy will be and I don't think even President Obama can

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tell that. And on trade it seems quite clear, one thing that they

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will have been the signing of this duty was the transatlantic trade

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deal between the EU and the US, it is over, gone, it's not going to

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happen! On that latter point they will certainly discuss trade, as you

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say it's very much a holding pattern because they know that deal is

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pretty much dead now. They are openly acknowledging that. Yet on

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the Ukraine - Syrian front I think they feel that there's an

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opportunity here because Donald Trump won't be doing anything until

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January. They have an opportunity now, window, they think, to lay down

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some lines and establish some positions so that they at least can

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say, this is where we are, this is why we think these sanctions need to

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be maintained, this is why the European Union will have to make a

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decision next month to formally row over these sanctions. It must happen

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before Donald Trump becomes president Trump -- roll over. They

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will have to send a signal to Washington to say, we are united on

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this and we will stick to it. Whether that affects the way the

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president elect thinks down the line remains to be seen but they want to

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present a united front here. I see that our Prime Minister is meeting

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Angela Merkel. No doubt they will talk more about Brexit. And the

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German finance minister is still talking about giving Britain a

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punishment beating in the discussions. Is that mood music

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because they have to be seen to be tough before the German elections

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next year, can anything come out of the bilateral between the British

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Prime Minister and Angela Merkel? I'm expecting no shock news to

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emerge. They are saying, it's just a meeting we'll have to build as much

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relation to pursue when the hard talks begin next year and after that

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you've got a bit of a relationship in the bank. That is what they's

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meeting is about. In terms terms of their response to the interview by

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the German finance minister, it is interesting that whenever you try to

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ask questions of Theresa May on this issue of contributions to EU covers

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in the future, there is silence. Absolutely nothing said about this.

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Because what a lot of Tory MPs think is, because there's now more and

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more talk of a transmission period after the divorce and before we

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establish what our future relationship with the EU will be,

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during that transition period there is a belief that contributions to

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the EU will have to be one of those issues on the table. That is why

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they think Downing Street is silent on that. That's why they has not

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been a negative violent response to it because the idea of contributions

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might have to be sold to the British at some stage so I don't think they

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will find it helpful if the German finance minister raises it now.

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James, thank you very much. The government is criticised widely

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for being very elliptical and vague as to what its negotiating position

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is. I wonder, as we listen to James, does it matter? The French elections

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are coming up in April, May, there is an Italian referendum before that

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which could start a new ball game more important than Brexit and

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German elections next September. You feel nothing much can happen until

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that is resolved. It feels like leaders in limbo, Tony Blair said

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the kaleidoscope has been shaken and we don't yet know how the pieces

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will land, some are in place but you have a president Obama who will not

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be in power in summer months and we don't know exactly what President

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Trump thinks. Elections coming up in other European countries. Brexit yet

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to be determined. Britain itself in limbo. So it's difficult to know how

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these things will shape up in the end. One interesting thing I learned

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this week was that people who had worked on David Cameron 's team and

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supported him through the Remain campaign have advised Theresa May

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and her team to hold their nerve on this position of simply saying

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Brexit means Brexit. They feel they walked into that trap and they did

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give a running commentary, there were clear about some of the things

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they wanted and that simply invited every sceptic from left or right to

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say, you will never get that, you said you wanted that and you've only

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got theirs. It will make it much harder to sell any final arrangement

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to the public. So there's a good reason to say, we aren't just going

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to hand over these hostages to fortune. The problem you get is that

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Theresa May's position is reduced to, just trust me and give me

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maximum benefit of the doubt. In the current climate no one is giving

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politicians the benefit of the.! I wonder where this will end, will it

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increase pressure on her to say, I need my own mandate? I don't think

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there is pressure on her to call an election but if she wants to say

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just let me get on with it, don't ask questions, can she do that

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without a mandate of her own? Leaders in limbo, a perfect

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description of where we are at the moment, she has created a vacuum,

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and from the Marmite story to so-called Deloitte report story,

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others, not with her best interests at heart, filling the vacuum. The

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first rule of politics, if there is a vacuum others will step in. Nigel

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Farage rushing straight to Mr Trump, photographed in a selfie. In a gold

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elevator, do you have one? In Hackney, we don't have gold elevator

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is, funnily enough! In cases like this people will fill the gaps that

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she leaves and does not fill herself. There is always time for

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our daily quiz. The question for today

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is which of Jeremy Corbyn's possessions is currently

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being auctioned off for charity Is it a) His prize marrow b)

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His favourite tracksuit c) His bicycle or d)

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A signed pair of his shoes? At the end of the show Rafael

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and Rachel will give That sounds like an Italian

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restaurant, Rafael and Rachel. Future career options if the world

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really falls apart. Or a hairdressers.

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So, will Donald Trump's election herald a new era in relations

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And is that desirable, given Russia's activities in Ukraine

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Here's a reminder of what's been happening.

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In 2014, pro-Russian separatists, allegedly with the help

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of Russian special forces, and others, took control of Crimea

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The Ukrainian government, and many world leaders, think this

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was an illegal annexation - but Russia disputes this.

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In response, the EU, the US and others introduced a range

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of sanctions against Russia, including travel bans and asset

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freezes on individuals and restrictions on the country's

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In 2015, Russia began its major military intervention in Syria.

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International observers have accused Russian war planes of bombing

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hospitals and killing thousands of civilians - but Russia says

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And last month, the US government formally accused Russia of hacking

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the Democratic Party's emails and trying to "interfere"

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But President-elect Donald Trump has signalled that he wants a less

:11:32.:11:38.

confrontational relationship with the Russian president

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Vladimir Putin - so what will the future relationship be?

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Vladimir Putin has welcomed the statement from Mr Trump. It is hard

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to tell what the future relationship will be.

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Well, joining me now is Alexander Nekrassov, a former

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Welcome to the programme. Is it your feeling that the victory of Mr Trump

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is the start of a new relationship for Russia and America? It will be a

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change, that is for sure row because under Obama it was a disaster. He

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did not really have a foreign policy towards Russia. I think that the way

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America handled the situation in Ukraine, when you started explaining

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what happened in Ukraine, you forgot one little matter. Just one, but a

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crucial one. The armed coup in Kiev which overthrew the legitimate

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government. That is what the Kremlin calls it. You've made your point and

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I won't argue with that, it is not how many others see it. What I am

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trying to get, because one thing we know about Mr Trump is that he is a

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bit of a ricochet. One moment he could take one position and suddenly

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he's at the opposite end of the position. How consistent do you

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think Mr Trump will be in relations with the Kremlin or how soon before

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they have a bad falling out? First of all if you look at the position

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of Western governments at the moment, the British government, the

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French government, their position changes every day. We have Boris

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Johnson saying one thing one day, and another thing another day.

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Towards Russia? Towards everything! File has our position changed

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towards Russia in the past 24 hours? -- how has it changed? Boris Johnson

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said that Britain has to deal with Russia and talk with Roger and then

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he suddenly changed and said that there should be a no-fly zone and

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all of that. So that changes practically all the time -- deal

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with Russia and talk with Russia. You could want a no fly zone and

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still be prepared to talk. We always talk to Russia. A no-fly zone is war

:14:10.:14:15.

with Russia. Let me get that right, a no-fly zone... Over Syria. Or even

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over part of a leper, that means war with Russia? - Even over part of

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Aleppo. When you hear those statements, you don't really know

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how to respond to them. When I listen to Theresa May's speech in

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the Guildhall, I could feel that was a vacuum, they don't really know how

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to... What I am still trying to grasp because it is important in

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Europe to see if there is real substance to a rapprochement between

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the Kremlin and the White House, if there is one, what would it be and

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what should Europe do? These are the big questions we are trying to

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resolve. We should first conclude that if the American voters said No

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to Hillary Clinton and to Obama, it means they will not support the

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anti-Russian position of that administration. That comes out of

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the vote. Having been there to cover the election I can assure you that

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attitudes towards Russia were not uppermost in the minds of the

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voters. I'm still trying to get you to address, I don't want to go back

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to Ohio and Pennsylvania and the way people voted, I want to go forward,

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I am trying to find out what the shape of a possible rapprochement

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would be between Vladimir Putin's Kremlin and Donald Trump's White

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House because following that Europe would have to make its dispositions.

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Would Europe at the moment is behaving in a strange way. Answer

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the questions about America You cannot ask me to answer a question

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without giving a background. You want me to what, to say things are

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going to change with Trump a Russia and America are going to fall in

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love with each other. I'm just trying to find out. Of course not.

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Tell me what they will be like. There are powerful forces in America

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n Britain which do not want, that which are blocking that. So, of

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course there will be compromises, there will be flexibility. Nobody

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yet knows what is going to happen. What I started to say is that

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Europe, already, is trying to create a certain anti-Russian situation,

:16:41.:16:44.

even more Trump goes into office. That meeting that we saw in your

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report before, they are already discussing how to be anti-Russian,

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how to put pressure on Russia, even though Obama at the table is a

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nobody. He doesn't decide anything. All right. Do you buy this

:17:00.:17:07.

reproachment? I think there is a strange obsession among certain male

:17:08.:17:12.

leaders, a strong man, if you like, I remember interviewing Bernie

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Ecclestone once, he said - Hitler go the things done. It is that thing

:17:16.:17:23.

amongst politicians and people... He made the trains run on time. There

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is a fetishisation of the strong man in politics, which Vladimir Putin is

:17:32.:17:34.

an example. And Nigel Farage has talked the of

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one. I'm not sure it is to do with Russia, it is almost an infatation

:17:39.:17:45.

with Putin and the strength of him but nothing has changed with the

:17:46.:17:49.

Kremlin and the situation in the Ukraine. Nothing significant has

:17:50.:17:53.

changed. It is, clear, though, in Syria - I say clear now, it may not

:17:54.:17:59.

be in two months months' time - Mr Trump's general view in Syria is

:18:00.:18:03.

really to let the Russians get on with it, with the Syrians, to beat

:18:04.:18:12.

off the rebels that the West has been supporting, get rid of them,

:18:13.:18:15.

then in the hope that Syria and Russia turn on Islamic state. That's

:18:16.:18:21.

Mr Trump's view of Syria. You correctly pointed out

:18:22.:18:24.

inconsistencies in the Trump position, one broad consistent

:18:25.:18:28.

aspects of his temperament, his position, the idea is he likes to

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cut a deal and one of the things that is Liberal opinion and opinion

:18:33.:18:36.

in the European Union is worried about that he will bring a by

:18:37.:18:43.

lateral Real poll teak approach to these things at the expense of rule

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space, multilateral governance that has operated since 1945. That system

:18:50.:18:55.

has failed in Syria. So there will be an appetite for the American

:18:56.:18:59.

president who will ignore that and cut deals by laterally. I think

:19:00.:19:04.

where that is a problem with Russia is the Russian strategic position

:19:05.:19:08.

underpinning the uncertainty, is the sense of what they call the

:19:09.:19:12.

neoabroad, the cops aft Soviet Union, it is seen as more ambiguous

:19:13.:19:18.

of what Russia's influence in what are Sovereign countries than a lot

:19:19.:19:21.

of people in the West would necessarily think. So the idea you

:19:22.:19:29.

accept the annexation of Crimea as a fait accompli or the way you border

:19:30.:19:34.

the boundaries of other states, it is not clear what Trump's position

:19:35.:19:37.

is. The things going rather well for Russia at the moment. You have got

:19:38.:19:41.

your way, Mr Trump has won in America. You helped reveal all the

:19:42.:19:48.

e-mails from the Democrats. There is really no Western response now in

:19:49.:19:53.

Syria. You have got your way there. People are uncertain what a Nato

:19:54.:19:59.

response would be on the eastern borders of Europe and there is a

:20:00.:20:02.

Russian loan helping to bankroll Marine Le Pen's campaign in France,

:20:03.:20:07.

which would also help. It all adds to the destablisation of Europe,

:20:08.:20:12.

which is one of Russia's aims? Well, Russia does not need to unstable

:20:13.:20:17.

Europe, because that is a danger to Russia, so I don't be scrubbed stand

:20:18.:20:22.

those arguments. I also -- so I don't understand those arguments. I

:20:23.:20:26.

find it bizarre, that we had a situation, where Russia was accused

:20:27.:20:29.

of helping Brexit to win... I didn't mention that I'm mentioning it,

:20:30.:20:33.

because it is on the table. Maybe I missed that one out And, of course,

:20:34.:20:40.

the bizarre, bizarre idea that Russia could actually influence

:20:41.:20:45.

American elections by supposedly, you know hacking into a Democratic

:20:46.:20:49.

website. Tried to, whether you did or not is another matter Well, it

:20:50.:20:56.

does sound a bit Harry porterish. The American intelligence agencies

:20:57.:20:58.

came to the same conclusion. They hardly ever agree. They didn't

:20:59.:21:04.

provide any proof. They just said - we have something, but we don't have

:21:05.:21:08.

T as regards Syria you are saying Russia is doing what it wants in

:21:09.:21:12.

Syria, no it doesn't. Unfortunately the arms and munitions are coming to

:21:13.:21:16.

the rebels in eastern Aleppo. And if they didn't have that support, they

:21:17.:21:20.

would have been wiped out a long time ago. The problem is, that it is

:21:21.:21:25.

a hostage situation. They are holding hostages people, and the

:21:26.:21:29.

Russian corridors when they opened several times now, nobody goes down

:21:30.:21:33.

them because these rebelses are not allowing people to leave. So that

:21:34.:21:38.

situation continues because of the support for these rebels from

:21:39.:21:42.

outside. All right. We'll have to leave it there. A big subject. A

:21:43.:21:46.

developing story. Will you come back and talk to us again on this? Of

:21:47.:21:50.

course, with pleasure. Since the EU referendum we've heard

:21:51.:22:00.

a lot about whether we should remain in the Single Market once we've

:22:01.:22:03.

left the EU. But not so much has been said

:22:04.:22:05.

about another EU arrangement -- The question of whether we should

:22:06.:22:08.

remain in or out of the Customs Union was raised by Boris Johnson

:22:09.:22:17.

earlier this week, when he told Czech journalists the UK

:22:18.:22:24.

is "probably" going to leave. But what exactly

:22:25.:22:30.

is the Customs Union? As a member of the EU customs union,

:22:31.:22:43.

the you UK gets shiny German cars, tariff-free. Britain resip skates

:22:44.:22:48.

with goods, including these London-made bicycles, which are

:22:49.:22:51.

cheaper to buy in other countries right now, thanks to the weak pound

:22:52.:22:56.

this. Company's CEO welcomes how the customs union gives customers the

:22:57.:22:59.

confidence they are getting, a fair price, wherever they are in the EU.

:23:00.:23:05.

Having consistency of how we approach imports and taxes is right

:23:06.:23:11.

for the consumer. The product standards here, assessed and

:23:12.:23:14.

regulated by the EU. They are an essential part of being in the

:23:15.:23:19.

customs union but when these bikes are sold to countries outside the

:23:20.:23:26.

union, it is more complicated Every part, every light, wheel has a

:23:27.:23:31.

different code. You have to go through the book, define the code so

:23:32.:23:35.

when it goes through customs they can apportion the right income duty

:23:36.:23:38.

for that little koe.d it is all doable but it adds more time,

:23:39.:23:41.

energy, somebody has to do t sometimes they get in a muddle then

:23:42.:23:45.

we have to ring it up and tell them why they have got it wrong. What

:23:46.:23:50.

would be the cost of doing business with EU countries if Britain were to

:23:51.:23:54.

leave The average trade weighted bound Taif as it is called is about

:23:55.:24:00.

3%, so fairly low. The cost of supplying with regulatory measures

:24:01.:24:05.

can be anything up to 20%. The tariff equivalent, when the UK

:24:06.:24:10.

leaves the EU, there will be a divergence and so the costs of

:24:11.:24:14.

complying with these regulatory provisions will increase. But

:24:15.:24:19.

thereby benefits from leaving the customs union, too. What are the

:24:20.:24:23.

UK's options? It could stay in the single market, but it won't have

:24:24.:24:27.

taken control of immigration T could leave the single market but stay in

:24:28.:24:31.

the customs union but it won't have taken control of trade policy T

:24:32.:24:35.

could have free trade agreements instead but loose the benefits of a

:24:36.:24:40.

customs union or it could rely on the World Trade Organisation's terms

:24:41.:24:43.

and get lumbered with mortar I haves. Foreign Secretary, Boris

:24:44.:24:47.

Johnson, told a Czech newspaper this week, the UK would probably have to

:24:48.:24:50.

leave the customs union. The Prime Minister said sheent made a decision

:24:51.:24:54.

about it and confused many by saying it was not a binary decision, though

:24:55.:24:59.

did not elaborate. So, if Boris Johnson is right, how could free

:25:00.:25:04.

trade agreements work? Most free trade agreements, these days, remove

:25:05.:25:10.

up to 98% of tariffs. A free trade agreement can also include mutual

:25:11.:25:14.

recognition agreement but in certain sectors, so he can have a mutual

:25:15.:25:21.

recognition agreement in cars, the EU Korea agreement includes a mutual

:25:22.:25:25.

recognition agreement in cars, so European cars can be sold in Korea

:25:26.:25:30.

and Korean cars can be sold in the EU. This company sells 44,000 bikes

:25:31.:25:36.

a year, many to the UK but of its exports, half go to Asia. One-third

:25:37.:25:41.

to the EU and just under one-fifth to America. But, and let's ask its

:25:42.:25:47.

CEO, how would leaving a customs union affect your business? I think,

:25:48.:25:52.

in fact, Europe will stay together. So, we will still have the advantage

:25:53.:26:00.

of whatever is that trade deal we have across Europe with 26 countries

:26:01.:26:03.

but we are not a as powerful because we are not part of that European

:26:04.:26:09.

bloc. Is there any market you are looking forward to negotiating with,

:26:10.:26:14.

were the UK to leave? We have free trade agreement with South Korea and

:26:15.:26:18.

Japan isn't far behind but divoent have a free trade agreement with

:26:19.:26:24.

Japan T would be great if both these countries had a free trade

:26:25.:26:28.

agreement. It confuses the consumer because one has a hire import duty.

:26:29.:26:42.

The fate of the factory floor lies in the hands of the politician s.

:26:43.:26:51.

And joining me now from our Shrewsbury studio is the former

:26:52.:26:54.

Conservative cabinet minister and Leave campaigner, Owen Paterson.

:26:55.:26:58.

The Prime Minister said at PMG membership of the customs union is

:26:59.:27:08.

not a banery decision, ie not an either-or? Do you understand what

:27:09.:27:11.

the Prime Minister means? Think she is being canny and in the revealing

:27:12.:27:17.

her hand. What came out of that clip t didn't really emerge, is that the

:27:18.:27:21.

customs union sets up a tariff role around Europe, sets up a fortress. I

:27:22.:27:25.

said that. It prevents British consumers and industries, so the

:27:26.:27:28.

manufacturing company I'm talking about, could probably buy raw

:27:29.:27:31.

materials cheaper outside the customs union, so I'm quite clear we

:27:32.:27:35.

would benefit immediately on a domestic market by leaving but also,

:27:36.:27:42.

very importantly, we get our full rollback on the WTO where we can

:27:43.:27:47.

negotiate deals pain we can ensure that world regulation, which is

:27:48.:27:54.

incredibly -- and where we can ensure that world regulation is

:27:55.:27:57.

negotiated. It could work to our advantage. I understand your case

:27:58.:28:00.

for leaving the customs union, I will come on to that in a minute,

:28:01.:28:04.

that wasn't my question. My question was the Prime Minister's description

:28:05.:28:08.

of being in or out of the customs union is not a binary decision. It

:28:09.:28:14.

is not an either-or. I I don't quite understand that. I'm asking you if

:28:15.:28:17.

you understand that, what she means by that? Well, sadly, Andrew, I

:28:18.:28:23.

missed PMQs this week as well, I didn't see the circumstances in

:28:24.:28:26.

which that question was put... I told you what she said she said it

:28:27.:28:30.

is not a binary decision Well, put the question to her, I was not

:28:31.:28:34.

there. So you don't understand it either No. As far as I'm concerned

:28:35.:28:40.

we voted to leave the European Union, that means leaving the

:28:41.:28:43.

customs union because if you stay in, you might as well remain until

:28:44.:28:50.

the whole thing altogether. I also think there is this woolliness about

:28:51.:28:54.

what the single market s but I think we would be better off... Let's

:28:55.:28:57.

leave the single market this morning. We have done a will the but

:28:58.:29:02.

this is thanks to Boris Johnson, the customs union, at least for the last

:29:03.:29:06.

48 hours or so has taken centre stage. Do you accept that if you

:29:07.:29:09.

remain in the customs union, that you cannot, the United Kingdom

:29:10.:29:13.

cannot do its own free trade deals with other countries. No, it can't

:29:14.:29:24.

because we have agreed to pull the negotiating power to the EU which

:29:25.:29:28.

negotiates trade and actually does it very badly. I remember going when

:29:29.:29:35.

I was in DEFRA, grinding on with the United States, meeting the trade

:29:36.:29:37.

agricultural secretary, with him I agreed on a lot of issues where we

:29:38.:29:42.

could do a deal but the EU limps along as slow as the lamest donkey

:29:43.:29:48.

in the caravan. The time I was there the row was about the Greek

:29:49.:29:53.

definition of feta, and this 3 billion deal held up with the

:29:54.:29:58.

definition of Greek cheese I'm clear at the moment we are not allowed to

:29:59.:30:02.

negotiate trade deals and one of the hugep advantages if we left, is we

:30:03.:30:06.

could. If we stayed in the customs' union, to get this clear, there is

:30:07.:30:10.

talk about the transition team at the moment, among those close to Mr

:30:11.:30:15.

Trump, that they may want to begin negotiations with Britain on a free

:30:16.:30:18.

trade deal. They know they cannot complete one until we have left, but

:30:19.:30:21.

they could begin talking about T you are clear, that if we were to stay

:30:22.:30:26.

in the customs union, that is a job for the EU, we wouldn't be able to

:30:27.:30:29.

do that ourselves? It was encouraging, I thought what

:30:30.:30:44.

the Trump team said, rather than what Obama said about Britain being

:30:45.:30:49.

at the back of the queue, or the back of the line, we can immediately

:30:50.:30:52.

negotiate with them in an open manner which would be great. The

:30:53.:30:56.

Prime Minister was in India last week going back to the land of your

:30:57.:31:00.

fathers, there are huge opportunities selling whiskey to

:31:01.:31:10.

India, when I was in Defra there were enormous duties and we

:31:11.:31:14.

calculated that if we got them down to the December said there wouldn't

:31:15.:31:18.

be enough whiskey in Scotland to supply discerning Indian consumers.

:31:19.:31:21.

So that our massive opportunities outside but remember our trade with

:31:22.:31:27.

the EU has declined, it's forecast to go down to 35%. So we already do

:31:28.:31:33.

the vast majority of our trade around the world, outside the

:31:34.:31:38.

customs union, mainly on World Trade Organisation terms. It does seem

:31:39.:31:42.

that in some ways you can be a half- pregnant when it comes to the

:31:43.:31:49.

Customs Union! This is the possibility of doing deals sector by

:31:50.:31:52.

sector so that in some sectors we would remain in the customs union

:31:53.:31:56.

and in others we would not and that would leave us free to do our own

:31:57.:32:02.

free trade deals. Turkey has an arrangement like that, two others do

:32:03.:32:05.

although they are not huge global players in trade, Andorra and San

:32:06.:32:13.

Marino. Perhaps that is what the Prime Minister means by "It's not

:32:14.:32:17.

binary". Maybe she means that we could have one foot still in the

:32:18.:32:22.

customs union? You make a very good point about deals, by sector, if you

:32:23.:32:28.

took pharmaceuticals that our massive savings to consumers if we

:32:29.:32:32.

could coordinate our regulation of pharmaceutical products. There was a

:32:33.:32:36.

move last year to coordinate an tyres which was scuppered by the

:32:37.:32:41.

Americans. You are right, there are possibilities around the world to do

:32:42.:32:45.

deals by sector. It would be so much better, however, if we were in the

:32:46.:32:51.

driving seat and working with like-minded allies as I said before

:32:52.:32:56.

on the World Trade Organisation. Thank you, Owen Paterson. We will

:32:57.:33:00.

see how this develops. It's very complicated. Your brain begins to

:33:01.:33:04.

Fussell at the idea of deals sector by sector! -- it begins to frazzle.

:33:05.:33:12.

Turkey has such an arrangement, I think it is uncertain manufactured

:33:13.:33:17.

goods but I don't think Andorra and San Marino can really be Avatars for

:33:18.:33:21.

the way Britain is going. To throw in another metaphor I spoke to a

:33:22.:33:27.

cabinet minister who said you cannot have your cake and eat it but you

:33:28.:33:31.

can cut the cake in different ways. So that's one way of thinking of it,

:33:32.:33:36.

you might not want the entire customs union with all the

:33:37.:33:39.

regulations which would have to be governed by the European Court, plus

:33:40.:33:43.

the tariff arrangements but you could come to arrangements either on

:33:44.:33:48.

particular industries or particular products with the EU and that would

:33:49.:33:51.

leave you free to do deals with other countries. You do wonder what

:33:52.:33:56.

would be the point of Liam Fox travelling the world saying we are

:33:57.:34:01.

ready to do trade deals, get ready, if, in the end we were to stay in

:34:02.:34:06.

the customs union? Switzerland is not in the customs union and has

:34:07.:34:09.

three times as many trade deals as the EU. That is what Liam Fox and Mr

:34:10.:34:15.

Johnson one. You get a strong impression around Westminster that

:34:16.:34:19.

what we you must this deplete call friends of Liam Fox -- what we call

:34:20.:34:27.

friends of Liam Fox, a euphemism, that they are agitating on his

:34:28.:34:30.

behalf and actually he doesn't have a job and needed to be given this

:34:31.:34:36.

position in the government by the hard Brexiteers, as we have come to

:34:37.:34:40.

call them, so that they would be represented around the Cabinet

:34:41.:34:43.

table. Actually he's twiddling his thumbs while this is decided. To go

:34:44.:34:49.

back to what Rachel was saying, the prospect of this sector by sector

:34:50.:34:52.

process of dismantling bits of the customs union, the hazard is that it

:34:53.:35:00.

becomes a lobbyist 's dream. We don't know what conversations were

:35:01.:35:05.

had between No 10 and Nissan, saying, Sunderland is important,

:35:06.:35:08.

that is where they make cars, we must protect you. That sends a

:35:09.:35:14.

signal to every industry, form an orderly queue, demonstrate what you

:35:15.:35:18.

can do for the UK economy, present us with your demands and we will see

:35:19.:35:23.

what we can do. It's not very transparent, nor is it necessarily

:35:24.:35:27.

regaining control in the way that the original Brexit proposition was

:35:28.:35:32.

offered. Speaking of Europe, we had some developments. We've just heard

:35:33.:35:35.

from the Supreme Court. The High Court ruled against the government,

:35:36.:35:39.

and in favour of the petitioners that Parliament needed to have a say

:35:40.:35:45.

in the triggering of Article 50. The government has appealed and that is

:35:46.:35:50.

now going to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court has confirmed that

:35:51.:35:53.

applications to intervene in this case have been granted to the lord

:35:54.:35:58.

advocate in the Scottish Government, so that's the Scottish Government

:35:59.:36:02.

now involved, the council general for Wales is another Welch

:36:03.:36:08.

government will be involved, the expat interveners, someone called

:36:09.:36:11.

George Clooney and others will be alleged to have a say, and the

:36:12.:36:14.

independent workers union of Great Britain. -- they will be allowed to

:36:15.:36:19.

have a say. And to a lesser extent but still to some degree, the

:36:20.:36:23.

Supreme Court has said that the Attorney General for Northern

:36:24.:36:27.

Ireland will be able to have some sort of intervention as well in

:36:28.:36:32.

this. I'm not quite sure what the legal implications of this are. It

:36:33.:36:37.

suggests that it would be a very quick decision if everyone has their

:36:38.:36:38.

say. Anyway. Next Wednesday the Chancellor,

:36:39.:36:41.

Philip Hammond, will get to his feet in the House of Commons

:36:42.:36:44.

to deliver his first We'll have live coverage

:36:45.:36:46.

here on BBC Two from 11.30. It's not a full budget,

:36:47.:36:52.

we'll have to wait until March for that,

:36:53.:36:54.

but that hasn't deterred MPs from all parties from

:36:55.:36:57.

lobbying the Chancellor. Last night the Shadow Chancellor,

:36:58.:36:58.

John McDonnell, staged a protest in central London demanding

:36:59.:37:02.

Philip Hammond abandon planned cuts to the Employment

:37:03.:37:05.

and Support Allowance. ESA replaced Incapacity Benefit

:37:06.:37:11.

and is paid to people who are having difficulty finding a job

:37:12.:37:14.

because of a long-term The issue was discussed in the House

:37:15.:37:17.

of Commons yesterday after the SNP secured parliamentary

:37:18.:37:24.

time for a backbench debate. From April 2017 new Employment

:37:25.:37:26.

Support Allowance claimants who are placed in the work-related

:37:27.:37:39.

activity group, will receive ?29.05 less than current ESA

:37:40.:37:41.

WRAG claimants do. During the passage of

:37:42.:37:44.

the Welfare Reform and Work Act, which legislated for this

:37:45.:37:58.

cut, the Government "New funding for additional support

:37:59.:37:59.

to help claimants return to work." This afternoon I intend to set out

:38:00.:38:03.

why, in this context the Government should use the opportunity

:38:04.:38:06.

of the Autumn Statement, a new Prime Minister,

:38:07.:38:08.

a new Chancellor, a new set of DWP ministers to pause the cut to

:38:09.:38:11.

the ESA WRAG and the corresponding Universal Credit work

:38:12.:38:14.

allowance elements - at least until the new system

:38:15.:38:16.

they are to propose has been always listen to the loudest voice

:38:17.:38:18.

in your head. You might try to drown it out

:38:19.:38:23.

with distractions or other In fact you can sometimes see it

:38:24.:38:27.

when you look in the mirror. I think we all know

:38:28.:38:33.

what that voice is saying - The ?30, ?30 - represents 29%

:38:34.:38:36.

of the weekly income It's big money for

:38:37.:38:46.

relatively few people. What kind of a Government

:38:47.:38:50.

do we want to be? Good policy cannot be created

:38:51.:39:06.

in a vacuum. We must also think about how

:39:07.:39:08.

something will be delivered, how it will work in practice and how

:39:09.:39:11.

it will affect a person concerned and as the honourable lady

:39:12.:39:22.

for Neath said "The welfare but if it works well,

:39:23.:39:24.

it should also be focussed in helping someone's

:39:25.:39:28.

ambitions in the future Proof we have listened

:39:29.:39:29.

and understood will be in our actions and a person's

:39:30.:39:34.

experience of the system and the support they receive,

:39:35.:39:36.

is the only thing that will assure So, we must deliver

:39:37.:39:39.

and we must deliver well. So, I have no intention

:39:40.:39:46.

of pausing our proposed support coming into effect in April,

:39:47.:39:51.

but I will assure this House that the work that we are doing

:39:52.:39:54.

and the announcements that we have made and reiterated again today,

:39:55.:39:57.

will meet that need. The Shadow Work and

:39:58.:40:03.

Pensions Secretary, I know you have to dash back to the

:40:04.:40:15.

House. The government 's position, as I understand it, is that if

:40:16.:40:21.

someone on ESA is assessed to be capable of work, then they are in

:40:22.:40:24.

the same position as a job-seeker and should be on jobseeker's

:40:25.:40:27.

allowance. What is wrong with that argument? That is incorrect, they

:40:28.:40:34.

have gone through the very flawed work capability assessment which the

:40:35.:40:38.

government themselves have accepted is not fit for purpose and they have

:40:39.:40:41.

been found not fit for work although they may be in the future and they

:40:42.:40:45.

are then put in the work-related activity group. And it is that half

:40:46.:40:52.

million people who will have about ?1500 a year taken from them and

:40:53.:40:56.

support. That is because they would move from ESA to jobseeker's

:40:57.:41:04.

allowance, which is lower? No, they are already in the work-related

:41:05.:41:07.

activity group. They are not fit for work although they may be in the

:41:08.:41:11.

future, they have been put the equivalent of job-seeker allowance

:41:12.:41:15.

rate. The evidence is, Andrew, that this counter-productive. One of our

:41:16.:41:20.

arguments against what the government is doing is their own

:41:21.:41:30.

research as well as a good report by Lord Lowe showing it is less likely

:41:31.:41:35.

to help people into work, making these cuts. What sort of work

:41:36.:41:41.

capability test would you have? What we have at the moment is assessing

:41:42.:41:45.

eligibility for Social Security support. We think that is the wrong

:41:46.:41:50.

way of doing it. We would like a more personalised, more holistic

:41:51.:41:53.

approach which looks at somebody's needs overall. Certainly out whether

:41:54.:41:59.

there are skills related shortages, whether there are health and her

:42:00.:42:04.

concerns, if they have housing issues, gain the Secretary of State

:42:05.:42:09.

has announced this, this week. Look at the issues that may contribute to

:42:10.:42:15.

them not being able to find work. If they did that, what a change would

:42:16.:42:19.

that make if they did it that way? It would be fairer in the first

:42:20.:42:22.

place, more constructive in terms of enabling people to get into...

:42:23.:42:30.

Before I became an MP I did some work across Europe as part of the

:42:31.:42:34.

employment strategy there. We looked at international evidence, it's

:42:35.:42:38.

going back a few years, I must say, and we want to do a similar process.

:42:39.:42:43.

In Australia and New Zealand they have this approach and it is far

:42:44.:42:47.

more effective. It's back to the evidence. The amount of money at

:42:48.:42:52.

stake, I've heard a Conservative MP said that, as well, I think. If the

:42:53.:42:58.

government was to proceed with this policy, it saves, I am told, about

:42:59.:43:05.

?640 million by 2021. There could be some other costs, I understand that.

:43:06.:43:10.

It's not a huge amount if you are talking about 20-21. But I did not

:43:11.:43:16.

get the impression from the Minister that the government was moving, are

:43:17.:43:21.

you? I hope that they are listening. You know what I asked you. We were

:43:22.:43:27.

away Tansey. This is disappointing, -- we will wait and see. Disabled

:43:28.:43:34.

people are twice as likely to live in poverty as non-disabled people.

:43:35.:43:38.

This extra support enables them, it's about their condition, this

:43:39.:43:41.

enables them to live as independent lives as possible, when they are

:43:42.:43:47.

judged as fit and able to get into work. There are shades of what

:43:48.:43:55.

Labour called the bedroom tax in this. You end up in quite a fight

:43:56.:44:01.

over money to some of the most vulnerable people in the country.

:44:02.:44:08.

And the political cost is much higher than any potential economic

:44:09.:44:14.

gain, even, and I emphasise the word even, you are right. The bedroom tax

:44:15.:44:21.

is a good comparison. Many Tories wish with hindsight that when they

:44:22.:44:25.

won majority last May they had come in and said, we recognise that this

:44:26.:44:29.

is potentially costing more than it saves because of the social

:44:30.:44:32.

consequences down the track. Another factor in this is that, whereas in

:44:33.:44:37.

the last parliament, the whole of the political argument has been

:44:38.:44:40.

organised very deliberately and effectively by George was around

:44:41.:44:45.

this question of the absolute imperative of fiscal consolidation

:44:46.:44:48.

and saving money whenever you could, it seems to me that the Brexit

:44:49.:44:52.

earthquake has changed the way that we debate politics. So much that

:44:53.:44:56.

this does not have the same imperative. So when you are talking

:44:57.:44:59.

about relatively small amounts of money which would have a horrible

:45:00.:45:04.

impact on people, any sensitive human being what have some

:45:05.:45:07.

compassion... The politics on this will change it would be difficult

:45:08.:45:11.

for the Chancellor to say, I'm sorry, I'm going to be as

:45:12.:45:16.

hard-hearted as I can because fiscal consolidation... We're not

:45:17.:45:18.

discussing fiscal policy like this any more because of Brexit. Rachel?

:45:19.:45:25.

The politics of this is fascinating because Theresa May has made it

:45:26.:45:28.

clear that her priority other people who are not poor, but just about

:45:29.:45:36.

managing. The JAMs, as we're calling them. These people are no longer a

:45:37.:45:42.

priority, it is interesting, there are lots of conservatives, like

:45:43.:45:45.

Heidi Allen there who is worried that she will lose her reputation

:45:46.:45:50.

for compassion. We need to let you go. We did ask for a minister from

:45:51.:45:55.

DWP to come on, nuns is available. What's the next stage in the

:45:56.:46:00.

parliamentary resistance -- manner seemed available. We will keep on

:46:01.:46:03.

pushing, we help the government will listen on Wednesday. Wednesday is

:46:04.:46:12.

the next stage? In the Autumn Statement. If you are not in the

:46:13.:46:15.

chamber make sure you are tuned into BBC Two. Thank you for joining us. .

:46:16.:46:23.

Now, if you've taken a look at our on-line Manifesto Tracker,

:46:24.:46:25.

you'll know that one of the Conservative Party's

:46:26.:46:28.

commitments at the last election was to reduce the number of MPs

:46:29.:46:30.

You'll also know that the government is on course to meet

:46:31.:46:34.

its promise by the time of the next election,

:46:35.:46:36.

But this morning the Labour Party set about trying to torpedo

:46:37.:46:46.

the changes in the Commons, with a Private Members Bill

:46:47.:46:49.

what is the best in our current system, like the MP constituency

:46:50.:46:56.

link, which is envied in democracies across the world,

:46:57.:46:58.

whilst ensuring that we do not lock out 2 million voters who have

:46:59.:47:01.

registered to vote since 2015 but under the current system, are not

:47:02.:47:05.

counted and therefore, effectively have no voice in this place.

:47:06.:47:08.

Surely no sensible government would deliberately discount

:47:09.:47:09.

2 million voters, simply because it does not suit their

:47:10.:47:12.

We can talk now to Pat Glass, and to the former Conservative

:47:13.:47:25.

-- welcome to the programme. The promise to cut the numbers of MPs

:47:26.:47:32.

from 650 to 600 was in the manifesto. Don't we expect

:47:33.:47:37.

governments to live up to their manifesto commitments? Well, I think

:47:38.:47:43.

what wasn't in the manifesto was the increase of 250 Lords at the same

:47:44.:47:47.

time. So we have this ludicrous situation where Government is

:47:48.:47:51.

cutting the elected House of Commons, with all of the additional

:47:52.:47:55.

work that's going to come from Europe, as we leave Europe, at the

:47:56.:47:59.

same time as it is stuffing the House of Lords in order to suit its

:48:00.:48:03.

own purposes. I see the condition tra diction. I'll take that up after

:48:04.:48:07.

I have interviewed you, with a Conservative MP. But as

:48:08.:48:15.

contradictory as that may be, my point was, it was a manifesto

:48:16.:48:19.

commitment and we all expects governments, I mean we come down on

:48:20.:48:25.

them like a tonne of breaks if they don't meet their commitments. All

:48:26.:48:30.

they are doing, is what they said? And equally we expect oppositions to

:48:31.:48:34.

deliver a good opposition to deliver a good democracies which is what we

:48:35.:48:40.

are doing. Isn't part of a good democracies that most constituencies

:48:41.:48:45.

be of roughly equal size and at the moment, the average number of voters

:48:46.:48:49.

in a Labour constituency is smaller than the average number in the

:48:50.:48:51.

Conservative constituency. They are not equal Well, that is true in some

:48:52.:48:57.

cases. However, my Bill is very clear about saying - yes, we do need

:48:58.:49:01.

to have equalisation but it has to be sense I will. In constituencies

:49:02.:49:06.

like mine would stretch - and I want to say it is not about me because I

:49:07.:49:11.

will not be standing at the next election - but constituencies like

:49:12.:49:16.

mine would stretch from the banks of the Tyne to the Tees. The whole of

:49:17.:49:21.

western Durham, right in the middle of the Pennines, for a constituent

:49:22.:49:27.

who wanted to see me if I had a surgery in the south and given

:49:28.:49:30.

communication goes East West it would take a whole day on public

:49:31.:49:34.

transport and probably an evernight stay. I don't think that's fair on

:49:35.:49:39.

my constituent. That is clear. That would be an argument to take to the

:49:40.:49:42.

boundary commission to rethink. The boundary commission, as you know,

:49:43.:49:44.

the political parties appear in front of that. Mr Blair's Labour

:49:45.:49:48.

Party was actually rather good in front of the boundary commission,

:49:49.:49:52.

got a lot of changes done but the principle that at the moment Labour

:49:53.:49:59.

is overrepresented, because it has, in general, smaller constituencies,

:50:00.:50:02.

and the Conservatives underrepresented, isn't that one you

:50:03.:50:06.

concede? Well, I think that's exactly what the boundary commission

:50:07.:50:12.

should be looking at but cutting number of MPs at the same time as we

:50:13.:50:16.

are bringing all the work back from Europe and getting a much-bigger,

:50:17.:50:19.

unelected House, I think that makes no sense and this is a worry for all

:50:20.:50:24.

of us who care about democracy. I understand that. And people will

:50:25.:50:28.

think - it's to the advantage of Labour that these things don't go

:50:29.:50:32.

through, but as you will know as well as as I do a number of

:50:33.:50:37.

Conservative MPs are worried about the consequences so my question to

:50:38.:50:40.

you is - do you have a chance of winning with this with Tory rebels

:50:41.:50:44.

on your side? Well, it looks as if what the Government has done is

:50:45.:50:48.

united the whole of the UK, because MPs from right across the country

:50:49.:50:52.

are here today and I think Conservative MPs are voting with

:50:53.:50:55.

their feet. They are simply not going to be here today. All right.

:50:56.:51:00.

Well listen, we will let you get back and see what is happening,

:51:01.:51:06.

thank you for joining us. Also in Central Lobby, we have the former

:51:07.:51:10.

Conservative Chief Whip, Mark Harper. There you are, he joins me

:51:11.:51:17.

now, by partisan cooperation as the Labour moves out and Conservative

:51:18.:51:21.

moves N your boundaries change on a regular basis and there is clearly a

:51:22.:51:28.

principle for now and there is inequality between Labour and

:51:29.:51:31.

Conservative. Let's concede that for the moementd but why do you plan to

:51:32.:51:38.

redraw them on the 2015 vote Erroll when there are now another 2 million

:51:39.:51:42.

people on the roll, why don't you include them? It is a civil point

:51:43.:51:46.

and came up in the debant Pat raised and I enned her clearly. If you look

:51:47.:51:52.

at the independent analysis, I quoted some from number crunches and

:51:53.:51:54.

another colleague quoted the House of Commons' library. That increase

:51:55.:51:59.

in 2 million voters who registered for the referendum was broadly

:52:00.:52:02.

evenly spread across the whole country so it doesn't make, if you

:52:03.:52:08.

included them all t doesn't make a material difference in the

:52:09.:52:11.

distribution of seats. Why not include them all. We live in the

:52:12.:52:16.

world where there are constant demands for more voter

:52:17.:52:18.

participation, to encourage people to be more involved. We have two

:52:19.:52:22.

million more people registered to vote, why not just recognise that

:52:23.:52:27.

and divide up the constituencies on the basis of the latest figures?

:52:28.:52:31.

People will suspect you don't want to do that because a lot of the 2

:52:32.:52:39.

million may not be Tory voters As I said, the spread across the country

:52:40.:52:46.

will not make a difference to the distribution of seats. The problem s

:52:47.:52:52.

if you do what the Bill does and say the boundary commission has to be

:52:53.:52:56.

finished by 2018 but start using a register for 2017, the practical

:52:57.:52:59.

consequence is that this register, this boundary review won't happen

:53:00.:53:01.

and what Labour is really trying to do is make sure the next election

:53:02.:53:04.

will be fought on boundaries which are 20 years out of date. They don't

:53:05.:53:10.

want any boundary change. They don't want more equal seats. They want the

:53:11.:53:15.

situation to continue being stacked in favour of them. They are also

:53:16.:53:17.

worried about having boundary changes at all because Labour MPs

:53:18.:53:23.

are worried they will be de-selected by all those new Labour members, run

:53:24.:53:26.

by Momentum and they are worried about that. Could you explain to our

:53:27.:53:33.

viewsers the logic of cutting our elected representatives by 50 and

:53:34.:53:36.

increasing our unelected representatives by 250? First, since

:53:37.:53:40.

the last election, the number of Lords is only a net increase of 15.

:53:41.:53:44.

But there was a lot more before that under the Conservatives Well, I of

:53:45.:53:47.

course and you remember Andrew I think I was probably on your

:53:48.:53:52.

programme, I was the minister who tried in the last Parliament to

:53:53.:53:56.

reform the House of Lords and have a much more elected House of Lords.

:53:57.:54:01.

That didn't get the support of MPs in the House of Commons. So now you

:54:02.:54:06.

are back to 250. I know what is happening at the moment is peers in

:54:07.:54:09.

the House of Lords themselves, led by the Lord Speak remember trying to

:54:10.:54:13.

look at ways they can reduce the size of the House of Lords to take

:54:14.:54:18.

account of the fact that it is too large but interestingly, since the

:54:19.:54:20.

last election, in fact since 2010, the cost of running the House of

:54:21.:54:23.

Lords has actually fallen by 14% in real terms. How much will it cost to

:54:24.:54:30.

add 250 peers? We are not added. I don't know where this - this is

:54:31.:54:34.

Labour number the number of peers since the last election has

:54:35.:54:37.

increased by 15 and I think since... The election was only a year ago and

:54:38.:54:45.

a bit Since 2010 I think it has increased by 100 but of course most

:54:46.:54:49.

of the costs of the House of Lords is fixed. Increasing the number of

:54:50.:54:53.

peers doesn't actual Lynne cease. Well they all sign on, so you add

:54:54.:54:59.

more on a daily ranchts the cost has fallen, since 2010 but I don't

:55:00.:55:03.

disagree with you about the need for House of Lords' reform. I was in

:55:04.:55:06.

favour of it before the last election. I tried to introduce a

:55:07.:55:10.

bill. We didn't get the support to get it through Parliament. You have

:55:11.:55:13.

made that point. Thank you for joining us. What do you think? I

:55:14.:55:17.

think the point you made about the Labour MPs is a fair one. A lot of

:55:18.:55:22.

them don't like the boundary review, partly because individual MPs are

:55:23.:55:25.

going to lose their seats or have seats merged and also for the

:55:26.:55:30.

moderate MPs or for lots of MPs they will find themselves up for

:55:31.:55:34.

re-selection and they will find themselves... Yes, that is a factor

:55:35.:55:39.

It is a more complicated factor. Do you accept the point he made if you

:55:40.:55:43.

do move to include the 2 million on, that would delay it until after the

:55:44.:55:49.

next election? Certainly I belief so technically because of the way the

:55:50.:55:55.

legislation is written you can enagent the changes through

:55:56.:55:57.

statutory implements as long as you use the premise of the original

:55:58.:56:00.

legislation, the boundary commission and the decision to use as it were

:56:01.:56:05.

the old roll is sort of bundled up with that. So you would have to do a

:56:06.:56:13.

lot of unpicking. One pointed that I thinking Pat Glass didn't raise was

:56:14.:56:17.

when you reduce the number of MPs 20600, the proportion who are

:56:18.:56:21.

Government pay roll MPs, ie more whipable, rises There are quite a

:56:22.:56:27.

lot of them. Yes, there are. I'm sorry I have to move on Another

:56:28.:56:29.

time. There will be another time. There's just time for a quick look

:56:30.:56:36.

back at the big political stories Here's Ellie with a review

:56:37.:56:39.

of the week in just 60 seconds. The PM told banqueting business

:56:40.:56:43.

bosses on Monday that Britian should champion free trade in the world

:56:44.:56:48.

and it was up to them The Shadow Business Secretary,

:56:49.:56:50.

Clive Lewis, said school and university leavers should ask

:56:51.:56:59.

more questions, as he launched Labour's mission-orientated

:57:00.:57:02.

industrial strategy. Government plans to take away peers'

:57:03.:57:06.

rights to veto secondary legislation were dropped on Thursday,

:57:07.:57:09.

but there was also a hint that the Lords need

:57:10.:57:11.

to behave themselves. In the week that saw wall-to-wall

:57:12.:57:13.

coverage of Nigel Farage standing in front of a lift,

:57:14.:57:15.

questions of whether the four-time Ukip leader should be made

:57:16.:57:19.

a Lord did not go away, and Theresa May didn't

:57:20.:57:22.

rule it out either. Such matters are normally never

:57:23.:57:25.

discussed in public. And Barack Obama wanted to reassure

:57:26.:57:29.

world leaders that there was nothing to worry about when it

:57:30.:57:32.

came to the future of It was part of so long,

:57:33.:57:35.

farewell, auf widersehen, The reason for that scoul on Angela

:57:36.:57:52.

Merkel's face yesterday is that Mr Obama seemed to take about eight

:57:53.:57:55.

minutes to answer each question. I think he is getting into the roll

:57:56.:58:00.

now of being a pundit, rather than a President. He was really relaxed

:58:01.:58:06.

when he explained what was going on. I was in America in 2008 when he

:58:07.:58:11.

won, we thought it was the start of a new America in 2008 when he won

:58:12.:58:14.

and got re-elected four years later. What did we know?

:58:15.:58:17.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:58:18.:58:20.

The question was which of Jeremy Corbyn's possessions

:58:21.:58:27.

Is it a) His prize marrow b) His favourite tracksuit

:58:28.:58:30.

c) His bicycle or d) A signed pair of his shoes.

:58:31.:58:32.

The shoes. Are you bidding for them? I'm afraid not. I might just sneak

:58:33.:58:42.

up and grab a pair when he is not around.

:58:43.:58:44.

Thanks Rachel, Rafael and all my guests.

:58:45.:58:47.

The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.

:58:48.:58:49.

I'll be back on Sunday with the Sunday Politics ...do join

:58:50.:58:52.

corpse of American democracy and poke around inside with a boat hook.

:58:53.:59:14.

As spaceship Earth spirals towards its finale,

:59:15.:59:17.

what the hell happened in that election?

:59:18.:59:20.

Andrew Neil is joined by Guardian columnist Rafael Behr and Rachel Sylvester from the Times to discuss Theresa May's meeting with President Obama and Chancellor Merkel in Berlin. Also includes an interview with Conservative MP Owen Paterson about the customs union and discussion of changes to disability benefits with Labour's shadow work and pensions secretary Debbie Abrahams.


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