Browse content similar to 18/11/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
Theresa May meets Barack Obama, Angela Merkel and other European | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
leaders in Berlin for talks on Russia, Isis and trade. | :00:48. | :00:53. | |
Should sanctions against Russia be extended, or now that Donald Trump | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
is moving into the White House, should we follow his lead and | :00:57. | :00:59. | |
Would UK trade be better or worse off if we leave | :01:00. | :01:07. | |
After Boris Johnson says we'll "probably" leave it, | :01:08. | :01:13. | |
And as Barack Obama finishes off his farewell tour of Europe, | :01:14. | :01:19. | |
we'll discuss the President's legacy. | :01:20. | :01:28. | |
All that in the next hour and with us for the whole programme today, | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
the Guardian's Rafael Behr, and Rachel Sylvester, | :01:32. | :01:33. | |
Now, the Prime Minister is in Berlin today | :01:34. | :01:42. | |
for meetings with Barack Obama, Angela Merkel, Francois Hollande | :01:43. | :01:44. | |
They're expected to discuss Donald Trump's election | :01:45. | :01:53. | |
That is fascinating, captivating, and in some cases threatening | :01:54. | :02:00. | |
everybody. For the latest, we're | :02:01. | :02:02. | |
joined from Berlin by our Diplomatic Correspondent, | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
James Landale. James, said the scene for us, what | :02:08. | :02:09. | |
are they hoping to achieve today? This is one of the summits were you | :02:10. | :02:21. | |
can't have a proper conversation, just six people around the table and | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
only one or two officials, so unlike the G20 this is when leaders can't | :02:27. | :02:33. | |
have a proper conversation, they may be addressing the issues like how to | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
counter Islamic terrorism and deal with Syria and obviously Russia and | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
Ukraine yet overlaying this is the election of Donald Trump. This is | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
one of those meetings where it is the first chance for European | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
leaders to have face to based talks and ask how we respond to that. And | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
the underlying tension is that on one hand they want to respond to | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
populist forces and acknowledge them, yet at the same time say, we | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
need to lay down some barriers and some lines in the sand over key | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
foreign policy issues, of which the most important is America's attitude | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
to Russia. So the message we will get today is one saying, sanctions | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
against Russia over Ukraine must be maintained. They come up for renewal | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
next month so I think they'll want to say to the Americans, Europe | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
stands firm on this because one or two European leaders are a bit | :03:29. | :03:30. | |
softer on this for example the Italians so they'll want to get the | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
Italian leader on site to present a united front on that. They'll have a | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
problem because of the changing of the guard in the US. They cannot | :03:40. | :03:46. | |
really determine their future policy towards Russia until they know what | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
Donald Trump's policy will be and I don't think even President Obama can | :03:52. | :03:54. | |
tell that. And on trade it seems quite clear, one thing that they | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
will have been the signing of this duty was the transatlantic trade | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
deal between the EU and the US, it is over, gone, it's not going to | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
happen! On that latter point they will certainly discuss trade, as you | :04:11. | :04:13. | |
say it's very much a holding pattern because they know that deal is | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
pretty much dead now. They are openly acknowledging that. Yet on | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
the Ukraine - Syrian front I think they feel that there's an | :04:23. | :04:25. | |
opportunity here because Donald Trump won't be doing anything until | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
January. They have an opportunity now, window, they think, to lay down | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
some lines and establish some positions so that they at least can | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
say, this is where we are, this is why we think these sanctions need to | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
be maintained, this is why the European Union will have to make a | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
decision next month to formally row over these sanctions. It must happen | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
before Donald Trump becomes president Trump -- roll over. They | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
will have to send a signal to Washington to say, we are united on | :04:58. | :05:00. | |
this and we will stick to it. Whether that affects the way the | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
president elect thinks down the line remains to be seen but they want to | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
present a united front here. I see that our Prime Minister is meeting | :05:12. | :05:14. | |
Angela Merkel. No doubt they will talk more about Brexit. And the | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
German finance minister is still talking about giving Britain a | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
punishment beating in the discussions. Is that mood music | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
because they have to be seen to be tough before the German elections | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
next year, can anything come out of the bilateral between the British | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
Prime Minister and Angela Merkel? I'm expecting no shock news to | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
emerge. They are saying, it's just a meeting we'll have to build as much | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
relation to pursue when the hard talks begin next year and after that | :05:48. | :05:50. | |
you've got a bit of a relationship in the bank. That is what they's | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
meeting is about. In terms terms of their response to the interview by | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
the German finance minister, it is interesting that whenever you try to | :06:00. | :06:06. | |
ask questions of Theresa May on this issue of contributions to EU covers | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
in the future, there is silence. Absolutely nothing said about this. | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
Because what a lot of Tory MPs think is, because there's now more and | :06:17. | :06:19. | |
more talk of a transmission period after the divorce and before we | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
establish what our future relationship with the EU will be, | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
during that transition period there is a belief that contributions to | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
the EU will have to be one of those issues on the table. That is why | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
they think Downing Street is silent on that. That's why they has not | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
been a negative violent response to it because the idea of contributions | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
might have to be sold to the British at some stage so I don't think they | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
will find it helpful if the German finance minister raises it now. | :06:51. | :06:52. | |
James, thank you very much. The government is criticised widely | :06:53. | :07:02. | |
for being very elliptical and vague as to what its negotiating position | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
is. I wonder, as we listen to James, does it matter? The French elections | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
are coming up in April, May, there is an Italian referendum before that | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
which could start a new ball game more important than Brexit and | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
German elections next September. You feel nothing much can happen until | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
that is resolved. It feels like leaders in limbo, Tony Blair said | :07:26. | :07:32. | |
the kaleidoscope has been shaken and we don't yet know how the pieces | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
will land, some are in place but you have a president Obama who will not | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
be in power in summer months and we don't know exactly what President | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
Trump thinks. Elections coming up in other European countries. Brexit yet | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
to be determined. Britain itself in limbo. So it's difficult to know how | :07:52. | :07:58. | |
these things will shape up in the end. One interesting thing I learned | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
this week was that people who had worked on David Cameron 's team and | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
supported him through the Remain campaign have advised Theresa May | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
and her team to hold their nerve on this position of simply saying | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
Brexit means Brexit. They feel they walked into that trap and they did | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
give a running commentary, there were clear about some of the things | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
they wanted and that simply invited every sceptic from left or right to | :08:25. | :08:27. | |
say, you will never get that, you said you wanted that and you've only | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
got theirs. It will make it much harder to sell any final arrangement | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
to the public. So there's a good reason to say, we aren't just going | :08:36. | :08:41. | |
to hand over these hostages to fortune. The problem you get is that | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
Theresa May's position is reduced to, just trust me and give me | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
maximum benefit of the doubt. In the current climate no one is giving | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
politicians the benefit of the.! I wonder where this will end, will it | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
increase pressure on her to say, I need my own mandate? I don't think | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
there is pressure on her to call an election but if she wants to say | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
just let me get on with it, don't ask questions, can she do that | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
without a mandate of her own? Leaders in limbo, a perfect | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
description of where we are at the moment, she has created a vacuum, | :09:17. | :09:19. | |
and from the Marmite story to so-called Deloitte report story, | :09:20. | :09:28. | |
others, not with her best interests at heart, filling the vacuum. The | :09:29. | :09:34. | |
first rule of politics, if there is a vacuum others will step in. Nigel | :09:35. | :09:40. | |
Farage rushing straight to Mr Trump, photographed in a selfie. In a gold | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
elevator, do you have one? In Hackney, we don't have gold elevator | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
is, funnily enough! In cases like this people will fill the gaps that | :09:52. | :09:54. | |
she leaves and does not fill herself. There is always time for | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
our daily quiz. The question for today | :09:59. | :10:01. | |
is which of Jeremy Corbyn's possessions is currently | :10:02. | :10:04. | |
being auctioned off for charity Is it a) His prize marrow b) | :10:05. | :10:05. | |
His favourite tracksuit c) His bicycle or d) | :10:06. | :10:08. | |
A signed pair of his shoes? At the end of the show Rafael | :10:09. | :10:11. | |
and Rachel will give That sounds like an Italian | :10:12. | :10:25. | |
restaurant, Rafael and Rachel. Future career options if the world | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
really falls apart. Or a hairdressers. | :10:30. | :10:30. | |
So, will Donald Trump's election herald a new era in relations | :10:31. | :10:33. | |
And is that desirable, given Russia's activities in Ukraine | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
Here's a reminder of what's been happening. | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
In 2014, pro-Russian separatists, allegedly with the help | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
of Russian special forces, and others, took control of Crimea | :10:48. | :10:49. | |
The Ukrainian government, and many world leaders, think this | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
was an illegal annexation - but Russia disputes this. | :10:53. | :10:54. | |
In response, the EU, the US and others introduced a range | :10:55. | :10:57. | |
of sanctions against Russia, including travel bans and asset | :10:58. | :11:07. | |
freezes on individuals and restrictions on the country's | :11:08. | :11:09. | |
In 2015, Russia began its major military intervention in Syria. | :11:10. | :11:19. | |
International observers have accused Russian war planes of bombing | :11:20. | :11:21. | |
hospitals and killing thousands of civilians - but Russia says | :11:22. | :11:24. | |
And last month, the US government formally accused Russia of hacking | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
the Democratic Party's emails and trying to "interfere" | :11:30. | :11:31. | |
But President-elect Donald Trump has signalled that he wants a less | :11:32. | :11:38. | |
confrontational relationship with the Russian president | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
Vladimir Putin - so what will the future relationship be? | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
Vladimir Putin has welcomed the statement from Mr Trump. It is hard | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
to tell what the future relationship will be. | :11:56. | :11:56. | |
Well, joining me now is Alexander Nekrassov, a former | :11:57. | :11:58. | |
Welcome to the programme. Is it your feeling that the victory of Mr Trump | :11:59. | :12:08. | |
is the start of a new relationship for Russia and America? It will be a | :12:09. | :12:15. | |
change, that is for sure row because under Obama it was a disaster. He | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
did not really have a foreign policy towards Russia. I think that the way | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
America handled the situation in Ukraine, when you started explaining | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
what happened in Ukraine, you forgot one little matter. Just one, but a | :12:32. | :12:40. | |
crucial one. The armed coup in Kiev which overthrew the legitimate | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
government. That is what the Kremlin calls it. You've made your point and | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
I won't argue with that, it is not how many others see it. What I am | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
trying to get, because one thing we know about Mr Trump is that he is a | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
bit of a ricochet. One moment he could take one position and suddenly | :13:01. | :13:03. | |
he's at the opposite end of the position. How consistent do you | :13:04. | :13:11. | |
think Mr Trump will be in relations with the Kremlin or how soon before | :13:12. | :13:18. | |
they have a bad falling out? First of all if you look at the position | :13:19. | :13:21. | |
of Western governments at the moment, the British government, the | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
French government, their position changes every day. We have Boris | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
Johnson saying one thing one day, and another thing another day. | :13:30. | :13:38. | |
Towards Russia? Towards everything! File has our position changed | :13:39. | :13:44. | |
towards Russia in the past 24 hours? -- how has it changed? Boris Johnson | :13:45. | :13:50. | |
said that Britain has to deal with Russia and talk with Roger and then | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
he suddenly changed and said that there should be a no-fly zone and | :13:55. | :13:57. | |
all of that. So that changes practically all the time -- deal | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
with Russia and talk with Russia. You could want a no fly zone and | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
still be prepared to talk. We always talk to Russia. A no-fly zone is war | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
with Russia. Let me get that right, a no-fly zone... Over Syria. Or even | :14:16. | :14:24. | |
over part of a leper, that means war with Russia? - Even over part of | :14:25. | :14:34. | |
Aleppo. When you hear those statements, you don't really know | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
how to respond to them. When I listen to Theresa May's speech in | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
the Guildhall, I could feel that was a vacuum, they don't really know how | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
to... What I am still trying to grasp because it is important in | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
Europe to see if there is real substance to a rapprochement between | :14:54. | :15:01. | |
the Kremlin and the White House, if there is one, what would it be and | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
what should Europe do? These are the big questions we are trying to | :15:06. | :15:11. | |
resolve. We should first conclude that if the American voters said No | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
to Hillary Clinton and to Obama, it means they will not support the | :15:17. | :15:22. | |
anti-Russian position of that administration. That comes out of | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
the vote. Having been there to cover the election I can assure you that | :15:29. | :15:31. | |
attitudes towards Russia were not uppermost in the minds of the | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
voters. I'm still trying to get you to address, I don't want to go back | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
to Ohio and Pennsylvania and the way people voted, I want to go forward, | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
I am trying to find out what the shape of a possible rapprochement | :15:46. | :15:52. | |
would be between Vladimir Putin's Kremlin and Donald Trump's White | :15:53. | :15:55. | |
House because following that Europe would have to make its dispositions. | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
Would Europe at the moment is behaving in a strange way. Answer | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
the questions about America You cannot ask me to answer a question | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
without giving a background. You want me to what, to say things are | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
going to change with Trump a Russia and America are going to fall in | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
love with each other. I'm just trying to find out. Of course not. | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
Tell me what they will be like. There are powerful forces in America | :16:23. | :16:27. | |
n Britain which do not want, that which are blocking that. So, of | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
course there will be compromises, there will be flexibility. Nobody | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
yet knows what is going to happen. What I started to say is that | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
Europe, already, is trying to create a certain anti-Russian situation, | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
even more Trump goes into office. That meeting that we saw in your | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
report before, they are already discussing how to be anti-Russian, | :16:51. | :16:56. | |
how to put pressure on Russia, even though Obama at the table is a | :16:57. | :16:59. | |
nobody. He doesn't decide anything. All right. Do you buy this | :17:00. | :17:07. | |
reproachment? I think there is a strange obsession among certain male | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
leaders, a strong man, if you like, I remember interviewing Bernie | :17:13. | :17:15. | |
Ecclestone once, he said - Hitler go the things done. It is that thing | :17:16. | :17:23. | |
amongst politicians and people... He made the trains run on time. There | :17:24. | :17:31. | |
is a fetishisation of the strong man in politics, which Vladimir Putin is | :17:32. | :17:34. | |
an example. And Nigel Farage has talked the of | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
one. I'm not sure it is to do with Russia, it is almost an infatation | :17:39. | :17:45. | |
with Putin and the strength of him but nothing has changed with the | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
Kremlin and the situation in the Ukraine. Nothing significant has | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
changed. It is, clear, though, in Syria - I say clear now, it may not | :17:54. | :17:59. | |
be in two months months' time - Mr Trump's general view in Syria is | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
really to let the Russians get on with it, with the Syrians, to beat | :18:04. | :18:12. | |
off the rebels that the West has been supporting, get rid of them, | :18:13. | :18:15. | |
then in the hope that Syria and Russia turn on Islamic state. That's | :18:16. | :18:21. | |
Mr Trump's view of Syria. You correctly pointed out | :18:22. | :18:24. | |
inconsistencies in the Trump position, one broad consistent | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
aspects of his temperament, his position, the idea is he likes to | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
cut a deal and one of the things that is Liberal opinion and opinion | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
in the European Union is worried about that he will bring a by | :18:37. | :18:43. | |
lateral Real poll teak approach to these things at the expense of rule | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
space, multilateral governance that has operated since 1945. That system | :18:50. | :18:55. | |
has failed in Syria. So there will be an appetite for the American | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
president who will ignore that and cut deals by laterally. I think | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
where that is a problem with Russia is the Russian strategic position | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
underpinning the uncertainty, is the sense of what they call the | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
neoabroad, the cops aft Soviet Union, it is seen as more ambiguous | :19:13. | :19:18. | |
of what Russia's influence in what are Sovereign countries than a lot | :19:19. | :19:21. | |
of people in the West would necessarily think. So the idea you | :19:22. | :19:29. | |
accept the annexation of Crimea as a fait accompli or the way you border | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
the boundaries of other states, it is not clear what Trump's position | :19:35. | :19:37. | |
is. The things going rather well for Russia at the moment. You have got | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
your way, Mr Trump has won in America. You helped reveal all the | :19:42. | :19:48. | |
e-mails from the Democrats. There is really no Western response now in | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
Syria. You have got your way there. People are uncertain what a Nato | :19:54. | :19:59. | |
response would be on the eastern borders of Europe and there is a | :20:00. | :20:02. | |
Russian loan helping to bankroll Marine Le Pen's campaign in France, | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
which would also help. It all adds to the destablisation of Europe, | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
which is one of Russia's aims? Well, Russia does not need to unstable | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
Europe, because that is a danger to Russia, so I don't be scrubbed stand | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
those arguments. I also -- so I don't understand those arguments. I | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
find it bizarre, that we had a situation, where Russia was accused | :20:27. | :20:29. | |
of helping Brexit to win... I didn't mention that I'm mentioning it, | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
because it is on the table. Maybe I missed that one out And, of course, | :20:34. | :20:40. | |
the bizarre, bizarre idea that Russia could actually influence | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
American elections by supposedly, you know hacking into a Democratic | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
website. Tried to, whether you did or not is another matter Well, it | :20:50. | :20:56. | |
does sound a bit Harry porterish. The American intelligence agencies | :20:57. | :20:58. | |
came to the same conclusion. They hardly ever agree. They didn't | :20:59. | :21:04. | |
provide any proof. They just said - we have something, but we don't have | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
T as regards Syria you are saying Russia is doing what it wants in | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
Syria, no it doesn't. Unfortunately the arms and munitions are coming to | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
the rebels in eastern Aleppo. And if they didn't have that support, they | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
would have been wiped out a long time ago. The problem is, that it is | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
a hostage situation. They are holding hostages people, and the | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
Russian corridors when they opened several times now, nobody goes down | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
them because these rebelses are not allowing people to leave. So that | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
situation continues because of the support for these rebels from | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
outside. All right. We'll have to leave it there. A big subject. A | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
developing story. Will you come back and talk to us again on this? Of | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
course, with pleasure. Since the EU referendum we've heard | :21:51. | :22:00. | |
a lot about whether we should remain in the Single Market once we've | :22:01. | :22:03. | |
left the EU. But not so much has been said | :22:04. | :22:05. | |
about another EU arrangement -- The question of whether we should | :22:06. | :22:08. | |
remain in or out of the Customs Union was raised by Boris Johnson | :22:09. | :22:17. | |
earlier this week, when he told Czech journalists the UK | :22:18. | :22:24. | |
is "probably" going to leave. But what exactly | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
is the Customs Union? As a member of the EU customs union, | :22:31. | :22:43. | |
the you UK gets shiny German cars, tariff-free. Britain resip skates | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
with goods, including these London-made bicycles, which are | :22:49. | :22:51. | |
cheaper to buy in other countries right now, thanks to the weak pound | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
this. Company's CEO welcomes how the customs union gives customers the | :22:57. | :22:59. | |
confidence they are getting, a fair price, wherever they are in the EU. | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
Having consistency of how we approach imports and taxes is right | :23:06. | :23:11. | |
for the consumer. The product standards here, assessed and | :23:12. | :23:14. | |
regulated by the EU. They are an essential part of being in the | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
customs union but when these bikes are sold to countries outside the | :23:20. | :23:26. | |
union, it is more complicated Every part, every light, wheel has a | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
different code. You have to go through the book, define the code so | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
when it goes through customs they can apportion the right income duty | :23:36. | :23:38. | |
for that little koe.d it is all doable but it adds more time, | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
energy, somebody has to do t sometimes they get in a muddle then | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
we have to ring it up and tell them why they have got it wrong. What | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
would be the cost of doing business with EU countries if Britain were to | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
leave The average trade weighted bound Taif as it is called is about | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
3%, so fairly low. The cost of supplying with regulatory measures | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
can be anything up to 20%. The tariff equivalent, when the UK | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
leaves the EU, there will be a divergence and so the costs of | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
complying with these regulatory provisions will increase. But | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
thereby benefits from leaving the customs union, too. What are the | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
UK's options? It could stay in the single market, but it won't have | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
taken control of immigration T could leave the single market but stay in | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
the customs union but it won't have taken control of trade policy T | :24:32. | :24:35. | |
could have free trade agreements instead but loose the benefits of a | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
customs union or it could rely on the World Trade Organisation's terms | :24:41. | :24:43. | |
and get lumbered with mortar I haves. Foreign Secretary, Boris | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
Johnson, told a Czech newspaper this week, the UK would probably have to | :24:48. | :24:50. | |
leave the customs union. The Prime Minister said sheent made a decision | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
about it and confused many by saying it was not a binary decision, though | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
did not elaborate. So, if Boris Johnson is right, how could free | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
trade agreements work? Most free trade agreements, these days, remove | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
up to 98% of tariffs. A free trade agreement can also include mutual | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
recognition agreement but in certain sectors, so he can have a mutual | :25:15. | :25:21. | |
recognition agreement in cars, the EU Korea agreement includes a mutual | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
recognition agreement in cars, so European cars can be sold in Korea | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
and Korean cars can be sold in the EU. This company sells 44,000 bikes | :25:31. | :25:36. | |
a year, many to the UK but of its exports, half go to Asia. One-third | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
to the EU and just under one-fifth to America. But, and let's ask its | :25:42. | :25:47. | |
CEO, how would leaving a customs union affect your business? I think, | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
in fact, Europe will stay together. So, we will still have the advantage | :25:53. | :26:00. | |
of whatever is that trade deal we have across Europe with 26 countries | :26:01. | :26:03. | |
but we are not a as powerful because we are not part of that European | :26:04. | :26:09. | |
bloc. Is there any market you are looking forward to negotiating with, | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
were the UK to leave? We have free trade agreement with South Korea and | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
Japan isn't far behind but divoent have a free trade agreement with | :26:19. | :26:24. | |
Japan T would be great if both these countries had a free trade | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
agreement. It confuses the consumer because one has a hire import duty. | :26:29. | :26:42. | |
The fate of the factory floor lies in the hands of the politician s. | :26:43. | :26:51. | |
And joining me now from our Shrewsbury studio is the former | :26:52. | :26:54. | |
Conservative cabinet minister and Leave campaigner, Owen Paterson. | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
The Prime Minister said at PMG membership of the customs union is | :26:59. | :27:08. | |
not a banery decision, ie not an either-or? Do you understand what | :27:09. | :27:11. | |
the Prime Minister means? Think she is being canny and in the revealing | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
her hand. What came out of that clip t didn't really emerge, is that the | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
customs union sets up a tariff role around Europe, sets up a fortress. I | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
said that. It prevents British consumers and industries, so the | :27:26. | :27:28. | |
manufacturing company I'm talking about, could probably buy raw | :27:29. | :27:31. | |
materials cheaper outside the customs union, so I'm quite clear we | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
would benefit immediately on a domestic market by leaving but also, | :27:36. | :27:42. | |
very importantly, we get our full rollback on the WTO where we can | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
negotiate deals pain we can ensure that world regulation, which is | :27:48. | :27:54. | |
incredibly -- and where we can ensure that world regulation is | :27:55. | :27:57. | |
negotiated. It could work to our advantage. I understand your case | :27:58. | :28:00. | |
for leaving the customs union, I will come on to that in a minute, | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
that wasn't my question. My question was the Prime Minister's description | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
of being in or out of the customs union is not a binary decision. It | :28:09. | :28:14. | |
is not an either-or. I I don't quite understand that. I'm asking you if | :28:15. | :28:17. | |
you understand that, what she means by that? Well, sadly, Andrew, I | :28:18. | :28:23. | |
missed PMQs this week as well, I didn't see the circumstances in | :28:24. | :28:26. | |
which that question was put... I told you what she said she said it | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
is not a binary decision Well, put the question to her, I was not | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
there. So you don't understand it either No. As far as I'm concerned | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
we voted to leave the European Union, that means leaving the | :28:41. | :28:43. | |
customs union because if you stay in, you might as well remain until | :28:44. | :28:50. | |
the whole thing altogether. I also think there is this woolliness about | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
what the single market s but I think we would be better off... Let's | :28:55. | :28:57. | |
leave the single market this morning. We have done a will the but | :28:58. | :29:02. | |
this is thanks to Boris Johnson, the customs union, at least for the last | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
48 hours or so has taken centre stage. Do you accept that if you | :29:07. | :29:09. | |
remain in the customs union, that you cannot, the United Kingdom | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
cannot do its own free trade deals with other countries. No, it can't | :29:14. | :29:24. | |
because we have agreed to pull the negotiating power to the EU which | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
negotiates trade and actually does it very badly. I remember going when | :29:29. | :29:35. | |
I was in DEFRA, grinding on with the United States, meeting the trade | :29:36. | :29:37. | |
agricultural secretary, with him I agreed on a lot of issues where we | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
could do a deal but the EU limps along as slow as the lamest donkey | :29:43. | :29:48. | |
in the caravan. The time I was there the row was about the Greek | :29:49. | :29:53. | |
definition of feta, and this 3 billion deal held up with the | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
definition of Greek cheese I'm clear at the moment we are not allowed to | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
negotiate trade deals and one of the hugep advantages if we left, is we | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
could. If we stayed in the customs' union, to get this clear, there is | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
talk about the transition team at the moment, among those close to Mr | :30:11. | :30:15. | |
Trump, that they may want to begin negotiations with Britain on a free | :30:16. | :30:18. | |
trade deal. They know they cannot complete one until we have left, but | :30:19. | :30:21. | |
they could begin talking about T you are clear, that if we were to stay | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
in the customs union, that is a job for the EU, we wouldn't be able to | :30:27. | :30:29. | |
do that ourselves? It was encouraging, I thought what | :30:30. | :30:44. | |
the Trump team said, rather than what Obama said about Britain being | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
at the back of the queue, or the back of the line, we can immediately | :30:50. | :30:52. | |
negotiate with them in an open manner which would be great. The | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
Prime Minister was in India last week going back to the land of your | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
fathers, there are huge opportunities selling whiskey to | :31:01. | :31:10. | |
India, when I was in Defra there were enormous duties and we | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
calculated that if we got them down to the December said there wouldn't | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
be enough whiskey in Scotland to supply discerning Indian consumers. | :31:19. | :31:21. | |
So that our massive opportunities outside but remember our trade with | :31:22. | :31:27. | |
the EU has declined, it's forecast to go down to 35%. So we already do | :31:28. | :31:33. | |
the vast majority of our trade around the world, outside the | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
customs union, mainly on World Trade Organisation terms. It does seem | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
that in some ways you can be a half- pregnant when it comes to the | :31:43. | :31:49. | |
Customs Union! This is the possibility of doing deals sector by | :31:50. | :31:52. | |
sector so that in some sectors we would remain in the customs union | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
and in others we would not and that would leave us free to do our own | :31:57. | :32:02. | |
free trade deals. Turkey has an arrangement like that, two others do | :32:03. | :32:05. | |
although they are not huge global players in trade, Andorra and San | :32:06. | :32:13. | |
Marino. Perhaps that is what the Prime Minister means by "It's not | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
binary". Maybe she means that we could have one foot still in the | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
customs union? You make a very good point about deals, by sector, if you | :32:23. | :32:28. | |
took pharmaceuticals that our massive savings to consumers if we | :32:29. | :32:32. | |
could coordinate our regulation of pharmaceutical products. There was a | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
move last year to coordinate an tyres which was scuppered by the | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
Americans. You are right, there are possibilities around the world to do | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
deals by sector. It would be so much better, however, if we were in the | :32:46. | :32:51. | |
driving seat and working with like-minded allies as I said before | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
on the World Trade Organisation. Thank you, Owen Paterson. We will | :32:57. | :33:00. | |
see how this develops. It's very complicated. Your brain begins to | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
Fussell at the idea of deals sector by sector! -- it begins to frazzle. | :33:05. | :33:12. | |
Turkey has such an arrangement, I think it is uncertain manufactured | :33:13. | :33:17. | |
goods but I don't think Andorra and San Marino can really be Avatars for | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
the way Britain is going. To throw in another metaphor I spoke to a | :33:22. | :33:27. | |
cabinet minister who said you cannot have your cake and eat it but you | :33:28. | :33:31. | |
can cut the cake in different ways. So that's one way of thinking of it, | :33:32. | :33:36. | |
you might not want the entire customs union with all the | :33:37. | :33:39. | |
regulations which would have to be governed by the European Court, plus | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
the tariff arrangements but you could come to arrangements either on | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
particular industries or particular products with the EU and that would | :33:49. | :33:51. | |
leave you free to do deals with other countries. You do wonder what | :33:52. | :33:56. | |
would be the point of Liam Fox travelling the world saying we are | :33:57. | :34:01. | |
ready to do trade deals, get ready, if, in the end we were to stay in | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
the customs union? Switzerland is not in the customs union and has | :34:07. | :34:09. | |
three times as many trade deals as the EU. That is what Liam Fox and Mr | :34:10. | :34:15. | |
Johnson one. You get a strong impression around Westminster that | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
what we you must this deplete call friends of Liam Fox -- what we call | :34:20. | :34:27. | |
friends of Liam Fox, a euphemism, that they are agitating on his | :34:28. | :34:30. | |
behalf and actually he doesn't have a job and needed to be given this | :34:31. | :34:36. | |
position in the government by the hard Brexiteers, as we have come to | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
call them, so that they would be represented around the Cabinet | :34:41. | :34:43. | |
table. Actually he's twiddling his thumbs while this is decided. To go | :34:44. | :34:49. | |
back to what Rachel was saying, the prospect of this sector by sector | :34:50. | :34:52. | |
process of dismantling bits of the customs union, the hazard is that it | :34:53. | :35:00. | |
becomes a lobbyist 's dream. We don't know what conversations were | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
had between No 10 and Nissan, saying, Sunderland is important, | :35:06. | :35:08. | |
that is where they make cars, we must protect you. That sends a | :35:09. | :35:14. | |
signal to every industry, form an orderly queue, demonstrate what you | :35:15. | :35:18. | |
can do for the UK economy, present us with your demands and we will see | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
what we can do. It's not very transparent, nor is it necessarily | :35:24. | :35:27. | |
regaining control in the way that the original Brexit proposition was | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
offered. Speaking of Europe, we had some developments. We've just heard | :35:33. | :35:35. | |
from the Supreme Court. The High Court ruled against the government, | :35:36. | :35:39. | |
and in favour of the petitioners that Parliament needed to have a say | :35:40. | :35:45. | |
in the triggering of Article 50. The government has appealed and that is | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
now going to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court has confirmed that | :35:51. | :35:53. | |
applications to intervene in this case have been granted to the lord | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
advocate in the Scottish Government, so that's the Scottish Government | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
now involved, the council general for Wales is another Welch | :36:03. | :36:08. | |
government will be involved, the expat interveners, someone called | :36:09. | :36:11. | |
George Clooney and others will be alleged to have a say, and the | :36:12. | :36:14. | |
independent workers union of Great Britain. -- they will be allowed to | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
have a say. And to a lesser extent but still to some degree, the | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
Supreme Court has said that the Attorney General for Northern | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
Ireland will be able to have some sort of intervention as well in | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
this. I'm not quite sure what the legal implications of this are. It | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
suggests that it would be a very quick decision if everyone has their | :36:38. | :36:38. | |
say. Anyway. Next Wednesday the Chancellor, | :36:39. | :36:41. | |
Philip Hammond, will get to his feet in the House of Commons | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
to deliver his first We'll have live coverage | :36:45. | :36:46. | |
here on BBC Two from 11.30. It's not a full budget, | :36:47. | :36:52. | |
we'll have to wait until March for that, | :36:53. | :36:54. | |
but that hasn't deterred MPs from all parties from | :36:55. | :36:57. | |
lobbying the Chancellor. Last night the Shadow Chancellor, | :36:58. | :36:58. | |
John McDonnell, staged a protest in central London demanding | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
Philip Hammond abandon planned cuts to the Employment | :37:03. | :37:05. | |
and Support Allowance. ESA replaced Incapacity Benefit | :37:06. | :37:11. | |
and is paid to people who are having difficulty finding a job | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
because of a long-term The issue was discussed in the House | :37:15. | :37:17. | |
of Commons yesterday after the SNP secured parliamentary | :37:18. | :37:24. | |
time for a backbench debate. From April 2017 new Employment | :37:25. | :37:26. | |
Support Allowance claimants who are placed in the work-related | :37:27. | :37:39. | |
activity group, will receive ?29.05 less than current ESA | :37:40. | :37:41. | |
WRAG claimants do. During the passage of | :37:42. | :37:44. | |
the Welfare Reform and Work Act, which legislated for this | :37:45. | :37:58. | |
cut, the Government "New funding for additional support | :37:59. | :37:59. | |
to help claimants return to work." This afternoon I intend to set out | :38:00. | :38:03. | |
why, in this context the Government should use the opportunity | :38:04. | :38:06. | |
of the Autumn Statement, a new Prime Minister, | :38:07. | :38:08. | |
a new Chancellor, a new set of DWP ministers to pause the cut to | :38:09. | :38:11. | |
the ESA WRAG and the corresponding Universal Credit work | :38:12. | :38:14. | |
allowance elements - at least until the new system | :38:15. | :38:16. | |
they are to propose has been always listen to the loudest voice | :38:17. | :38:18. | |
in your head. You might try to drown it out | :38:19. | :38:23. | |
with distractions or other In fact you can sometimes see it | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
when you look in the mirror. I think we all know | :38:28. | :38:33. | |
what that voice is saying - The ?30, ?30 - represents 29% | :38:34. | :38:36. | |
of the weekly income It's big money for | :38:37. | :38:46. | |
relatively few people. What kind of a Government | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
do we want to be? Good policy cannot be created | :38:51. | :39:06. | |
in a vacuum. We must also think about how | :39:07. | :39:08. | |
something will be delivered, how it will work in practice and how | :39:09. | :39:11. | |
it will affect a person concerned and as the honourable lady | :39:12. | :39:22. | |
for Neath said "The welfare but if it works well, | :39:23. | :39:24. | |
it should also be focussed in helping someone's | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
ambitions in the future Proof we have listened | :39:29. | :39:29. | |
and understood will be in our actions and a person's | :39:30. | :39:34. | |
experience of the system and the support they receive, | :39:35. | :39:36. | |
is the only thing that will assure So, we must deliver | :39:37. | :39:39. | |
and we must deliver well. So, I have no intention | :39:40. | :39:46. | |
of pausing our proposed support coming into effect in April, | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
but I will assure this House that the work that we are doing | :39:52. | :39:54. | |
and the announcements that we have made and reiterated again today, | :39:55. | :39:57. | |
will meet that need. The Shadow Work and | :39:58. | :40:03. | |
Pensions Secretary, I know you have to dash back to the | :40:04. | :40:15. | |
House. The government 's position, as I understand it, is that if | :40:16. | :40:21. | |
someone on ESA is assessed to be capable of work, then they are in | :40:22. | :40:24. | |
the same position as a job-seeker and should be on jobseeker's | :40:25. | :40:27. | |
allowance. What is wrong with that argument? That is incorrect, they | :40:28. | :40:34. | |
have gone through the very flawed work capability assessment which the | :40:35. | :40:38. | |
government themselves have accepted is not fit for purpose and they have | :40:39. | :40:41. | |
been found not fit for work although they may be in the future and they | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
are then put in the work-related activity group. And it is that half | :40:46. | :40:52. | |
million people who will have about ?1500 a year taken from them and | :40:53. | :40:56. | |
support. That is because they would move from ESA to jobseeker's | :40:57. | :41:04. | |
allowance, which is lower? No, they are already in the work-related | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
activity group. They are not fit for work although they may be in the | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
future, they have been put the equivalent of job-seeker allowance | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
rate. The evidence is, Andrew, that this counter-productive. One of our | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
arguments against what the government is doing is their own | :41:21. | :41:30. | |
research as well as a good report by Lord Lowe showing it is less likely | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
to help people into work, making these cuts. What sort of work | :41:36. | :41:41. | |
capability test would you have? What we have at the moment is assessing | :41:42. | :41:45. | |
eligibility for Social Security support. We think that is the wrong | :41:46. | :41:50. | |
way of doing it. We would like a more personalised, more holistic | :41:51. | :41:53. | |
approach which looks at somebody's needs overall. Certainly out whether | :41:54. | :41:59. | |
there are skills related shortages, whether there are health and her | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
concerns, if they have housing issues, gain the Secretary of State | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
has announced this, this week. Look at the issues that may contribute to | :42:10. | :42:15. | |
them not being able to find work. If they did that, what a change would | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
that make if they did it that way? It would be fairer in the first | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
place, more constructive in terms of enabling people to get into... | :42:23. | :42:30. | |
Before I became an MP I did some work across Europe as part of the | :42:31. | :42:34. | |
employment strategy there. We looked at international evidence, it's | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
going back a few years, I must say, and we want to do a similar process. | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
In Australia and New Zealand they have this approach and it is far | :42:44. | :42:47. | |
more effective. It's back to the evidence. The amount of money at | :42:48. | :42:52. | |
stake, I've heard a Conservative MP said that, as well, I think. If the | :42:53. | :42:58. | |
government was to proceed with this policy, it saves, I am told, about | :42:59. | :43:05. | |
?640 million by 2021. There could be some other costs, I understand that. | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
It's not a huge amount if you are talking about 20-21. But I did not | :43:11. | :43:16. | |
get the impression from the Minister that the government was moving, are | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
you? I hope that they are listening. You know what I asked you. We were | :43:22. | :43:27. | |
away Tansey. This is disappointing, -- we will wait and see. Disabled | :43:28. | :43:34. | |
people are twice as likely to live in poverty as non-disabled people. | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
This extra support enables them, it's about their condition, this | :43:39. | :43:41. | |
enables them to live as independent lives as possible, when they are | :43:42. | :43:47. | |
judged as fit and able to get into work. There are shades of what | :43:48. | :43:55. | |
Labour called the bedroom tax in this. You end up in quite a fight | :43:56. | :44:01. | |
over money to some of the most vulnerable people in the country. | :44:02. | :44:08. | |
And the political cost is much higher than any potential economic | :44:09. | :44:14. | |
gain, even, and I emphasise the word even, you are right. The bedroom tax | :44:15. | :44:21. | |
is a good comparison. Many Tories wish with hindsight that when they | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
won majority last May they had come in and said, we recognise that this | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
is potentially costing more than it saves because of the social | :44:30. | :44:32. | |
consequences down the track. Another factor in this is that, whereas in | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
the last parliament, the whole of the political argument has been | :44:38. | :44:40. | |
organised very deliberately and effectively by George was around | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
this question of the absolute imperative of fiscal consolidation | :44:46. | :44:48. | |
and saving money whenever you could, it seems to me that the Brexit | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
earthquake has changed the way that we debate politics. So much that | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
this does not have the same imperative. So when you are talking | :44:57. | :44:59. | |
about relatively small amounts of money which would have a horrible | :45:00. | :45:04. | |
impact on people, any sensitive human being what have some | :45:05. | :45:07. | |
compassion... The politics on this will change it would be difficult | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
for the Chancellor to say, I'm sorry, I'm going to be as | :45:12. | :45:16. | |
hard-hearted as I can because fiscal consolidation... We're not | :45:17. | :45:18. | |
discussing fiscal policy like this any more because of Brexit. Rachel? | :45:19. | :45:25. | |
The politics of this is fascinating because Theresa May has made it | :45:26. | :45:28. | |
clear that her priority other people who are not poor, but just about | :45:29. | :45:36. | |
managing. The JAMs, as we're calling them. These people are no longer a | :45:37. | :45:42. | |
priority, it is interesting, there are lots of conservatives, like | :45:43. | :45:45. | |
Heidi Allen there who is worried that she will lose her reputation | :45:46. | :45:50. | |
for compassion. We need to let you go. We did ask for a minister from | :45:51. | :45:55. | |
DWP to come on, nuns is available. What's the next stage in the | :45:56. | :46:00. | |
parliamentary resistance -- manner seemed available. We will keep on | :46:01. | :46:03. | |
pushing, we help the government will listen on Wednesday. Wednesday is | :46:04. | :46:12. | |
the next stage? In the Autumn Statement. If you are not in the | :46:13. | :46:15. | |
chamber make sure you are tuned into BBC Two. Thank you for joining us. . | :46:16. | :46:23. | |
Now, if you've taken a look at our on-line Manifesto Tracker, | :46:24. | :46:25. | |
you'll know that one of the Conservative Party's | :46:26. | :46:28. | |
commitments at the last election was to reduce the number of MPs | :46:29. | :46:30. | |
You'll also know that the government is on course to meet | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
its promise by the time of the next election, | :46:35. | :46:36. | |
But this morning the Labour Party set about trying to torpedo | :46:37. | :46:46. | |
the changes in the Commons, with a Private Members Bill | :46:47. | :46:49. | |
what is the best in our current system, like the MP constituency | :46:50. | :46:56. | |
link, which is envied in democracies across the world, | :46:57. | :46:58. | |
whilst ensuring that we do not lock out 2 million voters who have | :46:59. | :47:01. | |
registered to vote since 2015 but under the current system, are not | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
counted and therefore, effectively have no voice in this place. | :47:06. | :47:08. | |
Surely no sensible government would deliberately discount | :47:09. | :47:09. | |
2 million voters, simply because it does not suit their | :47:10. | :47:12. | |
We can talk now to Pat Glass, and to the former Conservative | :47:13. | :47:25. | |
-- welcome to the programme. The promise to cut the numbers of MPs | :47:26. | :47:32. | |
from 650 to 600 was in the manifesto. Don't we expect | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
governments to live up to their manifesto commitments? Well, I think | :47:38. | :47:43. | |
what wasn't in the manifesto was the increase of 250 Lords at the same | :47:44. | :47:47. | |
time. So we have this ludicrous situation where Government is | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
cutting the elected House of Commons, with all of the additional | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
work that's going to come from Europe, as we leave Europe, at the | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
same time as it is stuffing the House of Lords in order to suit its | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
own purposes. I see the condition tra diction. I'll take that up after | :48:04. | :48:07. | |
I have interviewed you, with a Conservative MP. But as | :48:08. | :48:15. | |
contradictory as that may be, my point was, it was a manifesto | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
commitment and we all expects governments, I mean we come down on | :48:20. | :48:25. | |
them like a tonne of breaks if they don't meet their commitments. All | :48:26. | :48:30. | |
they are doing, is what they said? And equally we expect oppositions to | :48:31. | :48:34. | |
deliver a good opposition to deliver a good democracies which is what we | :48:35. | :48:40. | |
are doing. Isn't part of a good democracies that most constituencies | :48:41. | :48:45. | |
be of roughly equal size and at the moment, the average number of voters | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
in a Labour constituency is smaller than the average number in the | :48:50. | :48:51. | |
Conservative constituency. They are not equal Well, that is true in some | :48:52. | :48:57. | |
cases. However, my Bill is very clear about saying - yes, we do need | :48:58. | :49:01. | |
to have equalisation but it has to be sense I will. In constituencies | :49:02. | :49:06. | |
like mine would stretch - and I want to say it is not about me because I | :49:07. | :49:11. | |
will not be standing at the next election - but constituencies like | :49:12. | :49:16. | |
mine would stretch from the banks of the Tyne to the Tees. The whole of | :49:17. | :49:21. | |
western Durham, right in the middle of the Pennines, for a constituent | :49:22. | :49:27. | |
who wanted to see me if I had a surgery in the south and given | :49:28. | :49:30. | |
communication goes East West it would take a whole day on public | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
transport and probably an evernight stay. I don't think that's fair on | :49:35. | :49:39. | |
my constituent. That is clear. That would be an argument to take to the | :49:40. | :49:42. | |
boundary commission to rethink. The boundary commission, as you know, | :49:43. | :49:44. | |
the political parties appear in front of that. Mr Blair's Labour | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
Party was actually rather good in front of the boundary commission, | :49:49. | :49:52. | |
got a lot of changes done but the principle that at the moment Labour | :49:53. | :49:59. | |
is overrepresented, because it has, in general, smaller constituencies, | :50:00. | :50:02. | |
and the Conservatives underrepresented, isn't that one you | :50:03. | :50:06. | |
concede? Well, I think that's exactly what the boundary commission | :50:07. | :50:12. | |
should be looking at but cutting number of MPs at the same time as we | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
are bringing all the work back from Europe and getting a much-bigger, | :50:17. | :50:19. | |
unelected House, I think that makes no sense and this is a worry for all | :50:20. | :50:24. | |
of us who care about democracy. I understand that. And people will | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
think - it's to the advantage of Labour that these things don't go | :50:29. | :50:32. | |
through, but as you will know as well as as I do a number of | :50:33. | :50:37. | |
Conservative MPs are worried about the consequences so my question to | :50:38. | :50:40. | |
you is - do you have a chance of winning with this with Tory rebels | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
on your side? Well, it looks as if what the Government has done is | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
united the whole of the UK, because MPs from right across the country | :50:49. | :50:52. | |
are here today and I think Conservative MPs are voting with | :50:53. | :50:55. | |
their feet. They are simply not going to be here today. All right. | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
Well listen, we will let you get back and see what is happening, | :51:01. | :51:06. | |
thank you for joining us. Also in Central Lobby, we have the former | :51:07. | :51:10. | |
Conservative Chief Whip, Mark Harper. There you are, he joins me | :51:11. | :51:17. | |
now, by partisan cooperation as the Labour moves out and Conservative | :51:18. | :51:21. | |
moves N your boundaries change on a regular basis and there is clearly a | :51:22. | :51:28. | |
principle for now and there is inequality between Labour and | :51:29. | :51:31. | |
Conservative. Let's concede that for the moementd but why do you plan to | :51:32. | :51:38. | |
redraw them on the 2015 vote Erroll when there are now another 2 million | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
people on the roll, why don't you include them? It is a civil point | :51:43. | :51:46. | |
and came up in the debant Pat raised and I enned her clearly. If you look | :51:47. | :51:52. | |
at the independent analysis, I quoted some from number crunches and | :51:53. | :51:54. | |
another colleague quoted the House of Commons' library. That increase | :51:55. | :51:59. | |
in 2 million voters who registered for the referendum was broadly | :52:00. | :52:02. | |
evenly spread across the whole country so it doesn't make, if you | :52:03. | :52:08. | |
included them all t doesn't make a material difference in the | :52:09. | :52:11. | |
distribution of seats. Why not include them all. We live in the | :52:12. | :52:16. | |
world where there are constant demands for more voter | :52:17. | :52:18. | |
participation, to encourage people to be more involved. We have two | :52:19. | :52:22. | |
million more people registered to vote, why not just recognise that | :52:23. | :52:27. | |
and divide up the constituencies on the basis of the latest figures? | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
People will suspect you don't want to do that because a lot of the 2 | :52:32. | :52:39. | |
million may not be Tory voters As I said, the spread across the country | :52:40. | :52:46. | |
will not make a difference to the distribution of seats. The problem s | :52:47. | :52:52. | |
if you do what the Bill does and say the boundary commission has to be | :52:53. | :52:56. | |
finished by 2018 but start using a register for 2017, the practical | :52:57. | :52:59. | |
consequence is that this register, this boundary review won't happen | :53:00. | :53:01. | |
and what Labour is really trying to do is make sure the next election | :53:02. | :53:04. | |
will be fought on boundaries which are 20 years out of date. They don't | :53:05. | :53:10. | |
want any boundary change. They don't want more equal seats. They want the | :53:11. | :53:15. | |
situation to continue being stacked in favour of them. They are also | :53:16. | :53:17. | |
worried about having boundary changes at all because Labour MPs | :53:18. | :53:23. | |
are worried they will be de-selected by all those new Labour members, run | :53:24. | :53:26. | |
by Momentum and they are worried about that. Could you explain to our | :53:27. | :53:33. | |
viewsers the logic of cutting our elected representatives by 50 and | :53:34. | :53:36. | |
increasing our unelected representatives by 250? First, since | :53:37. | :53:40. | |
the last election, the number of Lords is only a net increase of 15. | :53:41. | :53:44. | |
But there was a lot more before that under the Conservatives Well, I of | :53:45. | :53:47. | |
course and you remember Andrew I think I was probably on your | :53:48. | :53:52. | |
programme, I was the minister who tried in the last Parliament to | :53:53. | :53:56. | |
reform the House of Lords and have a much more elected House of Lords. | :53:57. | :54:01. | |
That didn't get the support of MPs in the House of Commons. So now you | :54:02. | :54:06. | |
are back to 250. I know what is happening at the moment is peers in | :54:07. | :54:09. | |
the House of Lords themselves, led by the Lord Speak remember trying to | :54:10. | :54:13. | |
look at ways they can reduce the size of the House of Lords to take | :54:14. | :54:18. | |
account of the fact that it is too large but interestingly, since the | :54:19. | :54:20. | |
last election, in fact since 2010, the cost of running the House of | :54:21. | :54:23. | |
Lords has actually fallen by 14% in real terms. How much will it cost to | :54:24. | :54:30. | |
add 250 peers? We are not added. I don't know where this - this is | :54:31. | :54:34. | |
Labour number the number of peers since the last election has | :54:35. | :54:37. | |
increased by 15 and I think since... The election was only a year ago and | :54:38. | :54:45. | |
a bit Since 2010 I think it has increased by 100 but of course most | :54:46. | :54:49. | |
of the costs of the House of Lords is fixed. Increasing the number of | :54:50. | :54:53. | |
peers doesn't actual Lynne cease. Well they all sign on, so you add | :54:54. | :54:59. | |
more on a daily ranchts the cost has fallen, since 2010 but I don't | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
disagree with you about the need for House of Lords' reform. I was in | :55:04. | :55:06. | |
favour of it before the last election. I tried to introduce a | :55:07. | :55:10. | |
bill. We didn't get the support to get it through Parliament. You have | :55:11. | :55:13. | |
made that point. Thank you for joining us. What do you think? I | :55:14. | :55:17. | |
think the point you made about the Labour MPs is a fair one. A lot of | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
them don't like the boundary review, partly because individual MPs are | :55:23. | :55:25. | |
going to lose their seats or have seats merged and also for the | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
moderate MPs or for lots of MPs they will find themselves up for | :55:31. | :55:34. | |
re-selection and they will find themselves... Yes, that is a factor | :55:35. | :55:39. | |
It is a more complicated factor. Do you accept the point he made if you | :55:40. | :55:43. | |
do move to include the 2 million on, that would delay it until after the | :55:44. | :55:49. | |
next election? Certainly I belief so technically because of the way the | :55:50. | :55:55. | |
legislation is written you can enagent the changes through | :55:56. | :55:57. | |
statutory implements as long as you use the premise of the original | :55:58. | :56:00. | |
legislation, the boundary commission and the decision to use as it were | :56:01. | :56:05. | |
the old roll is sort of bundled up with that. So you would have to do a | :56:06. | :56:13. | |
lot of unpicking. One pointed that I thinking Pat Glass didn't raise was | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
when you reduce the number of MPs 20600, the proportion who are | :56:18. | :56:21. | |
Government pay roll MPs, ie more whipable, rises There are quite a | :56:22. | :56:27. | |
lot of them. Yes, there are. I'm sorry I have to move on Another | :56:28. | :56:29. | |
time. There will be another time. There's just time for a quick look | :56:30. | :56:36. | |
back at the big political stories Here's Ellie with a review | :56:37. | :56:39. | |
of the week in just 60 seconds. The PM told banqueting business | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
bosses on Monday that Britian should champion free trade in the world | :56:44. | :56:48. | |
and it was up to them The Shadow Business Secretary, | :56:49. | :56:50. | |
Clive Lewis, said school and university leavers should ask | :56:51. | :56:59. | |
more questions, as he launched Labour's mission-orientated | :57:00. | :57:02. | |
industrial strategy. Government plans to take away peers' | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
rights to veto secondary legislation were dropped on Thursday, | :57:07. | :57:09. | |
but there was also a hint that the Lords need | :57:10. | :57:11. | |
to behave themselves. In the week that saw wall-to-wall | :57:12. | :57:13. | |
coverage of Nigel Farage standing in front of a lift, | :57:14. | :57:15. | |
questions of whether the four-time Ukip leader should be made | :57:16. | :57:19. | |
a Lord did not go away, and Theresa May didn't | :57:20. | :57:22. | |
rule it out either. Such matters are normally never | :57:23. | :57:25. | |
discussed in public. And Barack Obama wanted to reassure | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
world leaders that there was nothing to worry about when it | :57:30. | :57:32. | |
came to the future of It was part of so long, | :57:33. | :57:35. | |
farewell, auf widersehen, The reason for that scoul on Angela | :57:36. | :57:52. | |
Merkel's face yesterday is that Mr Obama seemed to take about eight | :57:53. | :57:55. | |
minutes to answer each question. I think he is getting into the roll | :57:56. | :58:00. | |
now of being a pundit, rather than a President. He was really relaxed | :58:01. | :58:06. | |
when he explained what was going on. I was in America in 2008 when he | :58:07. | :58:11. | |
won, we thought it was the start of a new America in 2008 when he won | :58:12. | :58:14. | |
and got re-elected four years later. What did we know? | :58:15. | :58:17. | |
There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz. | :58:18. | :58:20. | |
The question was which of Jeremy Corbyn's possessions | :58:21. | :58:27. | |
Is it a) His prize marrow b) His favourite tracksuit | :58:28. | :58:30. | |
c) His bicycle or d) A signed pair of his shoes. | :58:31. | :58:32. | |
The shoes. Are you bidding for them? I'm afraid not. I might just sneak | :58:33. | :58:42. | |
up and grab a pair when he is not around. | :58:43. | :58:44. | |
Thanks Rachel, Rafael and all my guests. | :58:45. | :58:47. | |
The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now. | :58:48. | :58:49. | |
I'll be back on Sunday with the Sunday Politics ...do join | :58:50. | :58:52. | |
corpse of American democracy and poke around inside with a boat hook. | :58:53. | :59:14. | |
As spaceship Earth spirals towards its finale, | :59:15. | :59:17. | |
what the hell happened in that election? | :59:18. | :59:20. |