18/11/2016 Daily Politics


18/11/2016

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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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Theresa May meets Barack Obama, Angela Merkel and other European

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leaders in Berlin for talks on Russia, Isis and trade.

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Should sanctions against Russia be extended, or now that Donald Trump

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is moving into the White House, should we follow his lead and

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Would UK trade be better or worse off if we leave

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After Boris Johnson says we'll "probably" leave it,

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And as Barack Obama finishes off his farewell tour of Europe,

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we'll discuss the President's legacy.

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All that in the next hour and with us for the whole programme today,

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the Guardian's Rafael Behr, and Rachel Sylvester,

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Now, the Prime Minister is in Berlin today

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for meetings with Barack Obama, Angela Merkel, Francois Hollande

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They're expected to discuss Donald Trump's election

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That is fascinating, captivating, and in some cases threatening

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everybody. For the latest, we're

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joined from Berlin by our Diplomatic Correspondent,

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James Landale. James, said the scene for us, what

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are they hoping to achieve today? This is one of the summits were you

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can't have a proper conversation, just six people around the table and

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only one or two officials, so unlike the G20 this is when leaders can't

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have a proper conversation, they may be addressing the issues like how to

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counter Islamic terrorism and deal with Syria and obviously Russia and

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Ukraine yet overlaying this is the election of Donald Trump. This is

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one of those meetings where it is the first chance for European

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leaders to have face to based talks and ask how we respond to that. And

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the underlying tension is that on one hand they want to respond to

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populist forces and acknowledge them, yet at the same time say, we

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need to lay down some barriers and some lines in the sand over key

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foreign policy issues, of which the most important is America's attitude

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to Russia. So the message we will get today is one saying, sanctions

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against Russia over Ukraine must be maintained. They come up for renewal

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next month so I think they'll want to say to the Americans, Europe

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stands firm on this because one or two European leaders are a bit

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softer on this for example the Italians so they'll want to get the

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Italian leader on site to present a united front on that. They'll have a

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problem because of the changing of the guard in the US. They cannot

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really determine their future policy towards Russia until they know what

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Donald Trump's policy will be and I don't think even President Obama can

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tell that. And on trade it seems quite clear, one thing that they

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will have been the signing of this duty was the transatlantic trade

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deal between the EU and the US, it is over, gone, it's not going to

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happen! On that latter point they will certainly discuss trade, as you

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say it's very much a holding pattern because they know that deal is

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pretty much dead now. They are openly acknowledging that. Yet on

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the Ukraine - Syrian front I think they feel that there's an

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opportunity here because Donald Trump won't be doing anything until

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January. They have an opportunity now, window, they think, to lay down

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some lines and establish some positions so that they at least can

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say, this is where we are, this is why we think these sanctions need to

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be maintained, this is why the European Union will have to make a

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decision next month to formally row over these sanctions. It must happen

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before Donald Trump becomes president Trump -- roll over. They

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will have to send a signal to Washington to say, we are united on

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this and we will stick to it. Whether that affects the way the

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president elect thinks down the line remains to be seen but they want to

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present a united front here. I see that our Prime Minister is meeting

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Angela Merkel. No doubt they will talk more about Brexit. And the

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German finance minister is still talking about giving Britain a

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punishment beating in the discussions. Is that mood music

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because they have to be seen to be tough before the German elections

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next year, can anything come out of the bilateral between the British

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Prime Minister and Angela Merkel? I'm expecting no shock news to

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emerge. They are saying, it's just a meeting we'll have to build as much

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relation to pursue when the hard talks begin next year and after that

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you've got a bit of a relationship in the bank. That is what they's

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meeting is about. In terms terms of their response to the interview by

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the German finance minister, it is interesting that whenever you try to

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ask questions of Theresa May on this issue of contributions to EU covers

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in the future, there is silence. Absolutely nothing said about this.

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Because what a lot of Tory MPs think is, because there's now more and

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more talk of a transmission period after the divorce and before we

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establish what our future relationship with the EU will be,

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during that transition period there is a belief that contributions to

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the EU will have to be one of those issues on the table. That is why

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they think Downing Street is silent on that. That's why they has not

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been a negative violent response to it because the idea of contributions

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might have to be sold to the British at some stage so I don't think they

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will find it helpful if the German finance minister raises it now.

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James, thank you very much. The government is criticised widely

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for being very elliptical and vague as to what its negotiating position

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is. I wonder, as we listen to James, does it matter? The French elections

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are coming up in April, May, there is an Italian referendum before that

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which could start a new ball game more important than Brexit and

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German elections next September. You feel nothing much can happen until

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that is resolved. It feels like leaders in limbo, Tony Blair said

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the kaleidoscope has been shaken and we don't yet know how the pieces

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will land, some are in place but you have a president Obama who will not

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be in power in summer months and we don't know exactly what President

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Trump thinks. Elections coming up in other European countries. Brexit yet

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to be determined. Britain itself in limbo. So it's difficult to know how

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these things will shape up in the end. One interesting thing I learned

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this week was that people who had worked on David Cameron 's team and

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supported him through the Remain campaign have advised Theresa May

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and her team to hold their nerve on this position of simply saying

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Brexit means Brexit. They feel they walked into that trap and they did

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give a running commentary, there were clear about some of the things

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they wanted and that simply invited every sceptic from left or right to

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say, you will never get that, you said you wanted that and you've only

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got theirs. It will make it much harder to sell any final arrangement

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to the public. So there's a good reason to say, we aren't just going

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to hand over these hostages to fortune. The problem you get is that

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Theresa May's position is reduced to, just trust me and give me

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maximum benefit of the doubt. In the current climate no one is giving

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politicians the benefit of the.! I wonder where this will end, will it

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increase pressure on her to say, I need my own mandate? I don't think

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there is pressure on her to call an election but if she wants to say

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just let me get on with it, don't ask questions, can she do that

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without a mandate of her own? Leaders in limbo, a perfect

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description of where we are at the moment, she has created a vacuum,

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and from the Marmite story to so-called Deloitte report story,

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others, not with her best interests at heart, filling the vacuum. The

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first rule of politics, if there is a vacuum others will step in. Nigel

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Farage rushing straight to Mr Trump, photographed in a selfie. In a gold

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elevator, do you have one? In Hackney, we don't have gold elevator

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is, funnily enough! In cases like this people will fill the gaps that

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she leaves and does not fill herself. There is always time for

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our daily quiz. The question for today

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is which of Jeremy Corbyn's possessions is currently

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being auctioned off for charity Is it a) His prize marrow b)

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His favourite tracksuit c) His bicycle or d)

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A signed pair of his shoes? At the end of the show Rafael

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and Rachel will give That sounds like an Italian

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restaurant, Rafael and Rachel. Future career options if the world

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really falls apart. Or a hairdressers.

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So, will Donald Trump's election herald a new era in relations

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And is that desirable, given Russia's activities in Ukraine

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Here's a reminder of what's been happening.

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In 2014, pro-Russian separatists, allegedly with the help

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of Russian special forces, and others, took control of Crimea

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The Ukrainian government, and many world leaders, think this

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was an illegal annexation - but Russia disputes this.

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In response, the EU, the US and others introduced a range

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of sanctions against Russia, including travel bans and asset

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freezes on individuals and restrictions on the country's

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In 2015, Russia began its major military intervention in Syria.

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International observers have accused Russian war planes of bombing

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hospitals and killing thousands of civilians - but Russia says

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And last month, the US government formally accused Russia of hacking

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the Democratic Party's emails and trying to "interfere"

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But President-elect Donald Trump has signalled that he wants a less

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confrontational relationship with the Russian president

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Vladimir Putin - so what will the future relationship be?

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Vladimir Putin has welcomed the statement from Mr Trump. It is hard

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to tell what the future relationship will be.

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Well, joining me now is Alexander Nekrassov, a former

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Welcome to the programme. Is it your feeling that the victory of Mr Trump

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is the start of a new relationship for Russia and America? It will be a

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change, that is for sure row because under Obama it was a disaster. He

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did not really have a foreign policy towards Russia. I think that the way

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America handled the situation in Ukraine, when you started explaining

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what happened in Ukraine, you forgot one little matter. Just one, but a

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crucial one. The armed coup in Kiev which overthrew the legitimate

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government. That is what the Kremlin calls it. You've made your point and

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I won't argue with that, it is not how many others see it. What I am

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trying to get, because one thing we know about Mr Trump is that he is a

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bit of a ricochet. One moment he could take one position and suddenly

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he's at the opposite end of the position. How consistent do you

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think Mr Trump will be in relations with the Kremlin or how soon before

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they have a bad falling out? First of all if you look at the position

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of Western governments at the moment, the British government, the

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French government, their position changes every day. We have Boris

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Johnson saying one thing one day, and another thing another day.

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Towards Russia? Towards everything! File has our position changed

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towards Russia in the past 24 hours? -- how has it changed? Boris Johnson

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said that Britain has to deal with Russia and talk with Roger and then

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he suddenly changed and said that there should be a no-fly zone and

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all of that. So that changes practically all the time -- deal

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with Russia and talk with Russia. You could want a no fly zone and

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still be prepared to talk. We always talk to Russia. A no-fly zone is war

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with Russia. Let me get that right, a no-fly zone... Over Syria. Or even

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over part of a leper, that means war with Russia? - Even over part of

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Aleppo. When you hear those statements, you don't really know

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how to respond to them. When I listen to Theresa May's speech in

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the Guildhall, I could feel that was a vacuum, they don't really know how

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to... What I am still trying to grasp because it is important in

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Europe to see if there is real substance to a rapprochement between

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the Kremlin and the White House, if there is one, what would it be and

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what should Europe do? These are the big questions we are trying to

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resolve. We should first conclude that if the American voters said No

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to Hillary Clinton and to Obama, it means they will not support the

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anti-Russian position of that administration. That comes out of

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the vote. Having been there to cover the election I can assure you that

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attitudes towards Russia were not uppermost in the minds of the

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voters. I'm still trying to get you to address, I don't want to go back

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to Ohio and Pennsylvania and the way people voted, I want to go forward,

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I am trying to find out what the shape of a possible rapprochement

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would be between Vladimir Putin's Kremlin and Donald Trump's White

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House because following that Europe would have to make its dispositions.

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Would Europe at the moment is behaving in a strange way. Answer

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the questions about America You cannot ask me to answer a question

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without giving a background. You want me to what, to say things are

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going to change with Trump a Russia and America are going to fall in

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love with each other. I'm just trying to find out. Of course not.

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Tell me what they will be like. There are powerful forces in America

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n Britain which do not want, that which are blocking that. So, of

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course there will be compromises, there will be flexibility. Nobody

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yet knows what is going to happen. What I started to say is that

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Europe, already, is trying to create a certain anti-Russian situation,

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even more Trump goes into office. That meeting that we saw in your

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report before, they are already discussing how to be anti-Russian,

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how to put pressure on Russia, even though Obama at the table is a

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nobody. He doesn't decide anything. All right. Do you buy this

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reproachment? I think there is a strange obsession among certain male

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leaders, a strong man, if you like, I remember interviewing Bernie

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Ecclestone once, he said - Hitler go the things done. It is that thing

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amongst politicians and people... He made the trains run on time. There

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is a fetishisation of the strong man in politics, which Vladimir Putin is

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an example. And Nigel Farage has talked the of

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one. I'm not sure it is to do with Russia, it is almost an infatation

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with Putin and the strength of him but nothing has changed with the

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Kremlin and the situation in the Ukraine. Nothing significant has

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changed. It is, clear, though, in Syria - I say clear now, it may not

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be in two months months' time - Mr Trump's general view in Syria is

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really to let the Russians get on with it, with the Syrians, to beat

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off the rebels that the West has been supporting, get rid of them,

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then in the hope that Syria and Russia turn on Islamic state. That's

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Mr Trump's view of Syria. You correctly pointed out

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inconsistencies in the Trump position, one broad consistent

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aspects of his temperament, his position, the idea is he likes to

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cut a deal and one of the things that is Liberal opinion and opinion

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in the European Union is worried about that he will bring a by

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lateral Real poll teak approach to these things at the expense of rule

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space, multilateral governance that has operated since 1945. That system

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has failed in Syria. So there will be an appetite for the American

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president who will ignore that and cut deals by laterally. I think

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where that is a problem with Russia is the Russian strategic position

:19:05.:19:08.

underpinning the uncertainty, is the sense of what they call the

:19:09.:19:12.

neoabroad, the cops aft Soviet Union, it is seen as more ambiguous

:19:13.:19:18.

of what Russia's influence in what are Sovereign countries than a lot

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of people in the West would necessarily think. So the idea you

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accept the annexation of Crimea as a fait accompli or the way you border

:19:30.:19:34.

the boundaries of other states, it is not clear what Trump's position

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is. The things going rather well for Russia at the moment. You have got

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your way, Mr Trump has won in America. You helped reveal all the

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e-mails from the Democrats. There is really no Western response now in

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Syria. You have got your way there. People are uncertain what a Nato

:19:54.:19:59.

response would be on the eastern borders of Europe and there is a

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Russian loan helping to bankroll Marine Le Pen's campaign in France,

:20:03.:20:07.

which would also help. It all adds to the destablisation of Europe,

:20:08.:20:12.

which is one of Russia's aims? Well, Russia does not need to unstable

:20:13.:20:17.

Europe, because that is a danger to Russia, so I don't be scrubbed stand

:20:18.:20:22.

those arguments. I also -- so I don't understand those arguments. I

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find it bizarre, that we had a situation, where Russia was accused

:20:27.:20:29.

of helping Brexit to win... I didn't mention that I'm mentioning it,

:20:30.:20:33.

because it is on the table. Maybe I missed that one out And, of course,

:20:34.:20:40.

the bizarre, bizarre idea that Russia could actually influence

:20:41.:20:45.

American elections by supposedly, you know hacking into a Democratic

:20:46.:20:49.

website. Tried to, whether you did or not is another matter Well, it

:20:50.:20:56.

does sound a bit Harry porterish. The American intelligence agencies

:20:57.:20:58.

came to the same conclusion. They hardly ever agree. They didn't

:20:59.:21:04.

provide any proof. They just said - we have something, but we don't have

:21:05.:21:08.

T as regards Syria you are saying Russia is doing what it wants in

:21:09.:21:12.

Syria, no it doesn't. Unfortunately the arms and munitions are coming to

:21:13.:21:16.

the rebels in eastern Aleppo. And if they didn't have that support, they

:21:17.:21:20.

would have been wiped out a long time ago. The problem is, that it is

:21:21.:21:25.

a hostage situation. They are holding hostages people, and the

:21:26.:21:29.

Russian corridors when they opened several times now, nobody goes down

:21:30.:21:33.

them because these rebelses are not allowing people to leave. So that

:21:34.:21:38.

situation continues because of the support for these rebels from

:21:39.:21:42.

outside. All right. We'll have to leave it there. A big subject. A

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developing story. Will you come back and talk to us again on this? Of

:21:47.:21:50.

course, with pleasure. Since the EU referendum we've heard

:21:51.:22:00.

a lot about whether we should remain in the Single Market once we've

:22:01.:22:03.

left the EU. But not so much has been said

:22:04.:22:05.

about another EU arrangement -- The question of whether we should

:22:06.:22:08.

remain in or out of the Customs Union was raised by Boris Johnson

:22:09.:22:17.

earlier this week, when he told Czech journalists the UK

:22:18.:22:24.

is "probably" going to leave. But what exactly

:22:25.:22:30.

is the Customs Union? As a member of the EU customs union,

:22:31.:22:43.

the you UK gets shiny German cars, tariff-free. Britain resip skates

:22:44.:22:48.

with goods, including these London-made bicycles, which are

:22:49.:22:51.

cheaper to buy in other countries right now, thanks to the weak pound

:22:52.:22:56.

this. Company's CEO welcomes how the customs union gives customers the

:22:57.:22:59.

confidence they are getting, a fair price, wherever they are in the EU.

:23:00.:23:05.

Having consistency of how we approach imports and taxes is right

:23:06.:23:11.

for the consumer. The product standards here, assessed and

:23:12.:23:14.

regulated by the EU. They are an essential part of being in the

:23:15.:23:19.

customs union but when these bikes are sold to countries outside the

:23:20.:23:26.

union, it is more complicated Every part, every light, wheel has a

:23:27.:23:31.

different code. You have to go through the book, define the code so

:23:32.:23:35.

when it goes through customs they can apportion the right income duty

:23:36.:23:38.

for that little koe.d it is all doable but it adds more time,

:23:39.:23:41.

energy, somebody has to do t sometimes they get in a muddle then

:23:42.:23:45.

we have to ring it up and tell them why they have got it wrong. What

:23:46.:23:50.

would be the cost of doing business with EU countries if Britain were to

:23:51.:23:54.

leave The average trade weighted bound Taif as it is called is about

:23:55.:24:00.

3%, so fairly low. The cost of supplying with regulatory measures

:24:01.:24:05.

can be anything up to 20%. The tariff equivalent, when the UK

:24:06.:24:10.

leaves the EU, there will be a divergence and so the costs of

:24:11.:24:14.

complying with these regulatory provisions will increase. But

:24:15.:24:19.

thereby benefits from leaving the customs union, too. What are the

:24:20.:24:23.

UK's options? It could stay in the single market, but it won't have

:24:24.:24:27.

taken control of immigration T could leave the single market but stay in

:24:28.:24:31.

the customs union but it won't have taken control of trade policy T

:24:32.:24:35.

could have free trade agreements instead but loose the benefits of a

:24:36.:24:40.

customs union or it could rely on the World Trade Organisation's terms

:24:41.:24:43.

and get lumbered with mortar I haves. Foreign Secretary, Boris

:24:44.:24:47.

Johnson, told a Czech newspaper this week, the UK would probably have to

:24:48.:24:50.

leave the customs union. The Prime Minister said sheent made a decision

:24:51.:24:54.

about it and confused many by saying it was not a binary decision, though

:24:55.:24:59.

did not elaborate. So, if Boris Johnson is right, how could free

:25:00.:25:04.

trade agreements work? Most free trade agreements, these days, remove

:25:05.:25:10.

up to 98% of tariffs. A free trade agreement can also include mutual

:25:11.:25:14.

recognition agreement but in certain sectors, so he can have a mutual

:25:15.:25:21.

recognition agreement in cars, the EU Korea agreement includes a mutual

:25:22.:25:25.

recognition agreement in cars, so European cars can be sold in Korea

:25:26.:25:30.

and Korean cars can be sold in the EU. This company sells 44,000 bikes

:25:31.:25:36.

a year, many to the UK but of its exports, half go to Asia. One-third

:25:37.:25:41.

to the EU and just under one-fifth to America. But, and let's ask its

:25:42.:25:47.

CEO, how would leaving a customs union affect your business? I think,

:25:48.:25:52.

in fact, Europe will stay together. So, we will still have the advantage

:25:53.:26:00.

of whatever is that trade deal we have across Europe with 26 countries

:26:01.:26:03.

but we are not a as powerful because we are not part of that European

:26:04.:26:09.

bloc. Is there any market you are looking forward to negotiating with,

:26:10.:26:14.

were the UK to leave? We have free trade agreement with South Korea and

:26:15.:26:18.

Japan isn't far behind but divoent have a free trade agreement with

:26:19.:26:24.

Japan T would be great if both these countries had a free trade

:26:25.:26:28.

agreement. It confuses the consumer because one has a hire import duty.

:26:29.:26:42.

The fate of the factory floor lies in the hands of the politician s.

:26:43.:26:51.

And joining me now from our Shrewsbury studio is the former

:26:52.:26:54.

Conservative cabinet minister and Leave campaigner, Owen Paterson.

:26:55.:26:58.

The Prime Minister said at PMG membership of the customs union is

:26:59.:27:08.

not a banery decision, ie not an either-or? Do you understand what

:27:09.:27:11.

the Prime Minister means? Think she is being canny and in the revealing

:27:12.:27:17.

her hand. What came out of that clip t didn't really emerge, is that the

:27:18.:27:21.

customs union sets up a tariff role around Europe, sets up a fortress. I

:27:22.:27:25.

said that. It prevents British consumers and industries, so the

:27:26.:27:28.

manufacturing company I'm talking about, could probably buy raw

:27:29.:27:31.

materials cheaper outside the customs union, so I'm quite clear we

:27:32.:27:35.

would benefit immediately on a domestic market by leaving but also,

:27:36.:27:42.

very importantly, we get our full rollback on the WTO where we can

:27:43.:27:47.

negotiate deals pain we can ensure that world regulation, which is

:27:48.:27:54.

incredibly -- and where we can ensure that world regulation is

:27:55.:27:57.

negotiated. It could work to our advantage. I understand your case

:27:58.:28:00.

for leaving the customs union, I will come on to that in a minute,

:28:01.:28:04.

that wasn't my question. My question was the Prime Minister's description

:28:05.:28:08.

of being in or out of the customs union is not a binary decision. It

:28:09.:28:14.

is not an either-or. I I don't quite understand that. I'm asking you if

:28:15.:28:17.

you understand that, what she means by that? Well, sadly, Andrew, I

:28:18.:28:23.

missed PMQs this week as well, I didn't see the circumstances in

:28:24.:28:26.

which that question was put... I told you what she said she said it

:28:27.:28:30.

is not a binary decision Well, put the question to her, I was not

:28:31.:28:34.

there. So you don't understand it either No. As far as I'm concerned

:28:35.:28:40.

we voted to leave the European Union, that means leaving the

:28:41.:28:43.

customs union because if you stay in, you might as well remain until

:28:44.:28:50.

the whole thing altogether. I also think there is this woolliness about

:28:51.:28:54.

what the single market s but I think we would be better off... Let's

:28:55.:28:57.

leave the single market this morning. We have done a will the but

:28:58.:29:02.

this is thanks to Boris Johnson, the customs union, at least for the last

:29:03.:29:06.

48 hours or so has taken centre stage. Do you accept that if you

:29:07.:29:09.

remain in the customs union, that you cannot, the United Kingdom

:29:10.:29:13.

cannot do its own free trade deals with other countries. No, it can't

:29:14.:29:24.

because we have agreed to pull the negotiating power to the EU which

:29:25.:29:28.

negotiates trade and actually does it very badly. I remember going when

:29:29.:29:35.

I was in DEFRA, grinding on with the United States, meeting the trade

:29:36.:29:37.

agricultural secretary, with him I agreed on a lot of issues where we

:29:38.:29:42.

could do a deal but the EU limps along as slow as the lamest donkey

:29:43.:29:48.

in the caravan. The time I was there the row was about the Greek

:29:49.:29:53.

definition of feta, and this 3 billion deal held up with the

:29:54.:29:58.

definition of Greek cheese I'm clear at the moment we are not allowed to

:29:59.:30:02.

negotiate trade deals and one of the hugep advantages if we left, is we

:30:03.:30:06.

could. If we stayed in the customs' union, to get this clear, there is

:30:07.:30:10.

talk about the transition team at the moment, among those close to Mr

:30:11.:30:15.

Trump, that they may want to begin negotiations with Britain on a free

:30:16.:30:18.

trade deal. They know they cannot complete one until we have left, but

:30:19.:30:21.

they could begin talking about T you are clear, that if we were to stay

:30:22.:30:26.

in the customs union, that is a job for the EU, we wouldn't be able to

:30:27.:30:29.

do that ourselves? It was encouraging, I thought what

:30:30.:30:44.

the Trump team said, rather than what Obama said about Britain being

:30:45.:30:49.

at the back of the queue, or the back of the line, we can immediately

:30:50.:30:52.

negotiate with them in an open manner which would be great. The

:30:53.:30:56.

Prime Minister was in India last week going back to the land of your

:30:57.:31:00.

fathers, there are huge opportunities selling whiskey to

:31:01.:31:10.

India, when I was in Defra there were enormous duties and we

:31:11.:31:14.

calculated that if we got them down to the December said there wouldn't

:31:15.:31:18.

be enough whiskey in Scotland to supply discerning Indian consumers.

:31:19.:31:21.

So that our massive opportunities outside but remember our trade with

:31:22.:31:27.

the EU has declined, it's forecast to go down to 35%. So we already do

:31:28.:31:33.

the vast majority of our trade around the world, outside the

:31:34.:31:38.

customs union, mainly on World Trade Organisation terms. It does seem

:31:39.:31:42.

that in some ways you can be a half- pregnant when it comes to the

:31:43.:31:49.

Customs Union! This is the possibility of doing deals sector by

:31:50.:31:52.

sector so that in some sectors we would remain in the customs union

:31:53.:31:56.

and in others we would not and that would leave us free to do our own

:31:57.:32:02.

free trade deals. Turkey has an arrangement like that, two others do

:32:03.:32:05.

although they are not huge global players in trade, Andorra and San

:32:06.:32:13.

Marino. Perhaps that is what the Prime Minister means by "It's not

:32:14.:32:17.

binary". Maybe she means that we could have one foot still in the

:32:18.:32:22.

customs union? You make a very good point about deals, by sector, if you

:32:23.:32:28.

took pharmaceuticals that our massive savings to consumers if we

:32:29.:32:32.

could coordinate our regulation of pharmaceutical products. There was a

:32:33.:32:36.

move last year to coordinate an tyres which was scuppered by the

:32:37.:32:41.

Americans. You are right, there are possibilities around the world to do

:32:42.:32:45.

deals by sector. It would be so much better, however, if we were in the

:32:46.:32:51.

driving seat and working with like-minded allies as I said before

:32:52.:32:56.

on the World Trade Organisation. Thank you, Owen Paterson. We will

:32:57.:33:00.

see how this develops. It's very complicated. Your brain begins to

:33:01.:33:04.

Fussell at the idea of deals sector by sector! -- it begins to frazzle.

:33:05.:33:12.

Turkey has such an arrangement, I think it is uncertain manufactured

:33:13.:33:17.

goods but I don't think Andorra and San Marino can really be Avatars for

:33:18.:33:21.

the way Britain is going. To throw in another metaphor I spoke to a

:33:22.:33:27.

cabinet minister who said you cannot have your cake and eat it but you

:33:28.:33:31.

can cut the cake in different ways. So that's one way of thinking of it,

:33:32.:33:36.

you might not want the entire customs union with all the

:33:37.:33:39.

regulations which would have to be governed by the European Court, plus

:33:40.:33:43.

the tariff arrangements but you could come to arrangements either on

:33:44.:33:48.

particular industries or particular products with the EU and that would

:33:49.:33:51.

leave you free to do deals with other countries. You do wonder what

:33:52.:33:56.

would be the point of Liam Fox travelling the world saying we are

:33:57.:34:01.

ready to do trade deals, get ready, if, in the end we were to stay in

:34:02.:34:06.

the customs union? Switzerland is not in the customs union and has

:34:07.:34:09.

three times as many trade deals as the EU. That is what Liam Fox and Mr

:34:10.:34:15.

Johnson one. You get a strong impression around Westminster that

:34:16.:34:19.

what we you must this deplete call friends of Liam Fox -- what we call

:34:20.:34:27.

friends of Liam Fox, a euphemism, that they are agitating on his

:34:28.:34:30.

behalf and actually he doesn't have a job and needed to be given this

:34:31.:34:36.

position in the government by the hard Brexiteers, as we have come to

:34:37.:34:40.

call them, so that they would be represented around the Cabinet

:34:41.:34:43.

table. Actually he's twiddling his thumbs while this is decided. To go

:34:44.:34:49.

back to what Rachel was saying, the prospect of this sector by sector

:34:50.:34:52.

process of dismantling bits of the customs union, the hazard is that it

:34:53.:35:00.

becomes a lobbyist 's dream. We don't know what conversations were

:35:01.:35:05.

had between No 10 and Nissan, saying, Sunderland is important,

:35:06.:35:08.

that is where they make cars, we must protect you. That sends a

:35:09.:35:14.

signal to every industry, form an orderly queue, demonstrate what you

:35:15.:35:18.

can do for the UK economy, present us with your demands and we will see

:35:19.:35:23.

what we can do. It's not very transparent, nor is it necessarily

:35:24.:35:27.

regaining control in the way that the original Brexit proposition was

:35:28.:35:32.

offered. Speaking of Europe, we had some developments. We've just heard

:35:33.:35:35.

from the Supreme Court. The High Court ruled against the government,

:35:36.:35:39.

and in favour of the petitioners that Parliament needed to have a say

:35:40.:35:45.

in the triggering of Article 50. The government has appealed and that is

:35:46.:35:50.

now going to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court has confirmed that

:35:51.:35:53.

applications to intervene in this case have been granted to the lord

:35:54.:35:58.

advocate in the Scottish Government, so that's the Scottish Government

:35:59.:36:02.

now involved, the council general for Wales is another Welch

:36:03.:36:08.

government will be involved, the expat interveners, someone called

:36:09.:36:11.

George Clooney and others will be alleged to have a say, and the

:36:12.:36:14.

independent workers union of Great Britain. -- they will be allowed to

:36:15.:36:19.

have a say. And to a lesser extent but still to some degree, the

:36:20.:36:23.

Supreme Court has said that the Attorney General for Northern

:36:24.:36:27.

Ireland will be able to have some sort of intervention as well in

:36:28.:36:32.

this. I'm not quite sure what the legal implications of this are. It

:36:33.:36:37.

suggests that it would be a very quick decision if everyone has their

:36:38.:36:38.

say. Anyway. Next Wednesday the Chancellor,

:36:39.:36:41.

Philip Hammond, will get to his feet in the House of Commons

:36:42.:36:44.

to deliver his first We'll have live coverage

:36:45.:36:46.

here on BBC Two from 11.30. It's not a full budget,

:36:47.:36:52.

we'll have to wait until March for that,

:36:53.:36:54.

but that hasn't deterred MPs from all parties from

:36:55.:36:57.

lobbying the Chancellor. Last night the Shadow Chancellor,

:36:58.:36:58.

John McDonnell, staged a protest in central London demanding

:36:59.:37:02.

Philip Hammond abandon planned cuts to the Employment

:37:03.:37:05.

and Support Allowance. ESA replaced Incapacity Benefit

:37:06.:37:11.

and is paid to people who are having difficulty finding a job

:37:12.:37:14.

because of a long-term The issue was discussed in the House

:37:15.:37:17.

of Commons yesterday after the SNP secured parliamentary

:37:18.:37:24.

time for a backbench debate. From April 2017 new Employment

:37:25.:37:26.

Support Allowance claimants who are placed in the work-related

:37:27.:37:39.

activity group, will receive ?29.05 less than current ESA

:37:40.:37:41.

WRAG claimants do. During the passage of

:37:42.:37:44.

the Welfare Reform and Work Act, which legislated for this

:37:45.:37:58.

cut, the Government "New funding for additional support

:37:59.:37:59.

to help claimants return to work." This afternoon I intend to set out

:38:00.:38:03.

why, in this context the Government should use the opportunity

:38:04.:38:06.

of the Autumn Statement, a new Prime Minister,

:38:07.:38:08.

a new Chancellor, a new set of DWP ministers to pause the cut to

:38:09.:38:11.

the ESA WRAG and the corresponding Universal Credit work

:38:12.:38:14.

allowance elements - at least until the new system

:38:15.:38:16.

they are to propose has been always listen to the loudest voice

:38:17.:38:18.

in your head. You might try to drown it out

:38:19.:38:23.

with distractions or other In fact you can sometimes see it

:38:24.:38:27.

when you look in the mirror. I think we all know

:38:28.:38:33.

what that voice is saying - The ?30, ?30 - represents 29%

:38:34.:38:36.

of the weekly income It's big money for

:38:37.:38:46.

relatively few people. What kind of a Government

:38:47.:38:50.

do we want to be? Good policy cannot be created

:38:51.:39:06.

in a vacuum. We must also think about how

:39:07.:39:08.

something will be delivered, how it will work in practice and how

:39:09.:39:11.

it will affect a person concerned and as the honourable lady

:39:12.:39:22.

for Neath said "The welfare but if it works well,

:39:23.:39:24.

it should also be focussed in helping someone's

:39:25.:39:28.

ambitions in the future Proof we have listened

:39:29.:39:29.

and understood will be in our actions and a person's

:39:30.:39:34.

experience of the system and the support they receive,

:39:35.:39:36.

is the only thing that will assure So, we must deliver

:39:37.:39:39.

and we must deliver well. So, I have no intention

:39:40.:39:46.

of pausing our proposed support coming into effect in April,

:39:47.:39:51.

but I will assure this House that the work that we are doing

:39:52.:39:54.

and the announcements that we have made and reiterated again today,

:39:55.:39:57.

will meet that need. The Shadow Work and

:39:58.:40:03.

Pensions Secretary, I know you have to dash back to the

:40:04.:40:15.

House. The government 's position, as I understand it, is that if

:40:16.:40:21.

someone on ESA is assessed to be capable of work, then they are in

:40:22.:40:24.

the same position as a job-seeker and should be on jobseeker's

:40:25.:40:27.

allowance. What is wrong with that argument? That is incorrect, they

:40:28.:40:34.

have gone through the very flawed work capability assessment which the

:40:35.:40:38.

government themselves have accepted is not fit for purpose and they have

:40:39.:40:41.

been found not fit for work although they may be in the future and they

:40:42.:40:45.

are then put in the work-related activity group. And it is that half

:40:46.:40:52.

million people who will have about ?1500 a year taken from them and

:40:53.:40:56.

support. That is because they would move from ESA to jobseeker's

:40:57.:41:04.

allowance, which is lower? No, they are already in the work-related

:41:05.:41:07.

activity group. They are not fit for work although they may be in the

:41:08.:41:11.

future, they have been put the equivalent of job-seeker allowance

:41:12.:41:15.

rate. The evidence is, Andrew, that this counter-productive. One of our

:41:16.:41:20.

arguments against what the government is doing is their own

:41:21.:41:30.

research as well as a good report by Lord Lowe showing it is less likely

:41:31.:41:35.

to help people into work, making these cuts. What sort of work

:41:36.:41:41.

capability test would you have? What we have at the moment is assessing

:41:42.:41:45.

eligibility for Social Security support. We think that is the wrong

:41:46.:41:50.

way of doing it. We would like a more personalised, more holistic

:41:51.:41:53.

approach which looks at somebody's needs overall. Certainly out whether

:41:54.:41:59.

there are skills related shortages, whether there are health and her

:42:00.:42:04.

concerns, if they have housing issues, gain the Secretary of State

:42:05.:42:09.

has announced this, this week. Look at the issues that may contribute to

:42:10.:42:15.

them not being able to find work. If they did that, what a change would

:42:16.:42:19.

that make if they did it that way? It would be fairer in the first

:42:20.:42:22.

place, more constructive in terms of enabling people to get into...

:42:23.:42:30.

Before I became an MP I did some work across Europe as part of the

:42:31.:42:34.

employment strategy there. We looked at international evidence, it's

:42:35.:42:38.

going back a few years, I must say, and we want to do a similar process.

:42:39.:42:43.

In Australia and New Zealand they have this approach and it is far

:42:44.:42:47.

more effective. It's back to the evidence. The amount of money at

:42:48.:42:52.

stake, I've heard a Conservative MP said that, as well, I think. If the

:42:53.:42:58.

government was to proceed with this policy, it saves, I am told, about

:42:59.:43:05.

?640 million by 2021. There could be some other costs, I understand that.

:43:06.:43:10.

It's not a huge amount if you are talking about 20-21. But I did not

:43:11.:43:16.

get the impression from the Minister that the government was moving, are

:43:17.:43:21.

you? I hope that they are listening. You know what I asked you. We were

:43:22.:43:27.

away Tansey. This is disappointing, -- we will wait and see. Disabled

:43:28.:43:34.

people are twice as likely to live in poverty as non-disabled people.

:43:35.:43:38.

This extra support enables them, it's about their condition, this

:43:39.:43:41.

enables them to live as independent lives as possible, when they are

:43:42.:43:47.

judged as fit and able to get into work. There are shades of what

:43:48.:43:55.

Labour called the bedroom tax in this. You end up in quite a fight

:43:56.:44:01.

over money to some of the most vulnerable people in the country.

:44:02.:44:08.

And the political cost is much higher than any potential economic

:44:09.:44:14.

gain, even, and I emphasise the word even, you are right. The bedroom tax

:44:15.:44:21.

is a good comparison. Many Tories wish with hindsight that when they

:44:22.:44:25.

won majority last May they had come in and said, we recognise that this

:44:26.:44:29.

is potentially costing more than it saves because of the social

:44:30.:44:32.

consequences down the track. Another factor in this is that, whereas in

:44:33.:44:37.

the last parliament, the whole of the political argument has been

:44:38.:44:40.

organised very deliberately and effectively by George was around

:44:41.:44:45.

this question of the absolute imperative of fiscal consolidation

:44:46.:44:48.

and saving money whenever you could, it seems to me that the Brexit

:44:49.:44:52.

earthquake has changed the way that we debate politics. So much that

:44:53.:44:56.

this does not have the same imperative. So when you are talking

:44:57.:44:59.

about relatively small amounts of money which would have a horrible

:45:00.:45:04.

impact on people, any sensitive human being what have some

:45:05.:45:07.

compassion... The politics on this will change it would be difficult

:45:08.:45:11.

for the Chancellor to say, I'm sorry, I'm going to be as

:45:12.:45:16.

hard-hearted as I can because fiscal consolidation... We're not

:45:17.:45:18.

discussing fiscal policy like this any more because of Brexit. Rachel?

:45:19.:45:25.

The politics of this is fascinating because Theresa May has made it

:45:26.:45:28.

clear that her priority other people who are not poor, but just about

:45:29.:45:36.

managing. The JAMs, as we're calling them. These people are no longer a

:45:37.:45:42.

priority, it is interesting, there are lots of conservatives, like

:45:43.:45:45.

Heidi Allen there who is worried that she will lose her reputation

:45:46.:45:50.

for compassion. We need to let you go. We did ask for a minister from

:45:51.:45:55.

DWP to come on, nuns is available. What's the next stage in the

:45:56.:46:00.

parliamentary resistance -- manner seemed available. We will keep on

:46:01.:46:03.

pushing, we help the government will listen on Wednesday. Wednesday is

:46:04.:46:12.

the next stage? In the Autumn Statement. If you are not in the

:46:13.:46:15.

chamber make sure you are tuned into BBC Two. Thank you for joining us. .

:46:16.:46:23.

Now, if you've taken a look at our on-line Manifesto Tracker,

:46:24.:46:25.

you'll know that one of the Conservative Party's

:46:26.:46:28.

commitments at the last election was to reduce the number of MPs

:46:29.:46:30.

You'll also know that the government is on course to meet

:46:31.:46:34.

its promise by the time of the next election,

:46:35.:46:36.

But this morning the Labour Party set about trying to torpedo

:46:37.:46:46.

the changes in the Commons, with a Private Members Bill

:46:47.:46:49.

what is the best in our current system, like the MP constituency

:46:50.:46:56.

link, which is envied in democracies across the world,

:46:57.:46:58.

whilst ensuring that we do not lock out 2 million voters who have

:46:59.:47:01.

registered to vote since 2015 but under the current system, are not

:47:02.:47:05.

counted and therefore, effectively have no voice in this place.

:47:06.:47:08.

Surely no sensible government would deliberately discount

:47:09.:47:09.

2 million voters, simply because it does not suit their

:47:10.:47:12.

We can talk now to Pat Glass, and to the former Conservative

:47:13.:47:25.

-- welcome to the programme. The promise to cut the numbers of MPs

:47:26.:47:32.

from 650 to 600 was in the manifesto. Don't we expect

:47:33.:47:37.

governments to live up to their manifesto commitments? Well, I think

:47:38.:47:43.

what wasn't in the manifesto was the increase of 250 Lords at the same

:47:44.:47:47.

time. So we have this ludicrous situation where Government is

:47:48.:47:51.

cutting the elected House of Commons, with all of the additional

:47:52.:47:55.

work that's going to come from Europe, as we leave Europe, at the

:47:56.:47:59.

same time as it is stuffing the House of Lords in order to suit its

:48:00.:48:03.

own purposes. I see the condition tra diction. I'll take that up after

:48:04.:48:07.

I have interviewed you, with a Conservative MP. But as

:48:08.:48:15.

contradictory as that may be, my point was, it was a manifesto

:48:16.:48:19.

commitment and we all expects governments, I mean we come down on

:48:20.:48:25.

them like a tonne of breaks if they don't meet their commitments. All

:48:26.:48:30.

they are doing, is what they said? And equally we expect oppositions to

:48:31.:48:34.

deliver a good opposition to deliver a good democracies which is what we

:48:35.:48:40.

are doing. Isn't part of a good democracies that most constituencies

:48:41.:48:45.

be of roughly equal size and at the moment, the average number of voters

:48:46.:48:49.

in a Labour constituency is smaller than the average number in the

:48:50.:48:51.

Conservative constituency. They are not equal Well, that is true in some

:48:52.:48:57.

cases. However, my Bill is very clear about saying - yes, we do need

:48:58.:49:01.

to have equalisation but it has to be sense I will. In constituencies

:49:02.:49:06.

like mine would stretch - and I want to say it is not about me because I

:49:07.:49:11.

will not be standing at the next election - but constituencies like

:49:12.:49:16.

mine would stretch from the banks of the Tyne to the Tees. The whole of

:49:17.:49:21.

western Durham, right in the middle of the Pennines, for a constituent

:49:22.:49:27.

who wanted to see me if I had a surgery in the south and given

:49:28.:49:30.

communication goes East West it would take a whole day on public

:49:31.:49:34.

transport and probably an evernight stay. I don't think that's fair on

:49:35.:49:39.

my constituent. That is clear. That would be an argument to take to the

:49:40.:49:42.

boundary commission to rethink. The boundary commission, as you know,

:49:43.:49:44.

the political parties appear in front of that. Mr Blair's Labour

:49:45.:49:48.

Party was actually rather good in front of the boundary commission,

:49:49.:49:52.

got a lot of changes done but the principle that at the moment Labour

:49:53.:49:59.

is overrepresented, because it has, in general, smaller constituencies,

:50:00.:50:02.

and the Conservatives underrepresented, isn't that one you

:50:03.:50:06.

concede? Well, I think that's exactly what the boundary commission

:50:07.:50:12.

should be looking at but cutting number of MPs at the same time as we

:50:13.:50:16.

are bringing all the work back from Europe and getting a much-bigger,

:50:17.:50:19.

unelected House, I think that makes no sense and this is a worry for all

:50:20.:50:24.

of us who care about democracy. I understand that. And people will

:50:25.:50:28.

think - it's to the advantage of Labour that these things don't go

:50:29.:50:32.

through, but as you will know as well as as I do a number of

:50:33.:50:37.

Conservative MPs are worried about the consequences so my question to

:50:38.:50:40.

you is - do you have a chance of winning with this with Tory rebels

:50:41.:50:44.

on your side? Well, it looks as if what the Government has done is

:50:45.:50:48.

united the whole of the UK, because MPs from right across the country

:50:49.:50:52.

are here today and I think Conservative MPs are voting with

:50:53.:50:55.

their feet. They are simply not going to be here today. All right.

:50:56.:51:00.

Well listen, we will let you get back and see what is happening,

:51:01.:51:06.

thank you for joining us. Also in Central Lobby, we have the former

:51:07.:51:10.

Conservative Chief Whip, Mark Harper. There you are, he joins me

:51:11.:51:17.

now, by partisan cooperation as the Labour moves out and Conservative

:51:18.:51:21.

moves N your boundaries change on a regular basis and there is clearly a

:51:22.:51:28.

principle for now and there is inequality between Labour and

:51:29.:51:31.

Conservative. Let's concede that for the moementd but why do you plan to

:51:32.:51:38.

redraw them on the 2015 vote Erroll when there are now another 2 million

:51:39.:51:42.

people on the roll, why don't you include them? It is a civil point

:51:43.:51:46.

and came up in the debant Pat raised and I enned her clearly. If you look

:51:47.:51:52.

at the independent analysis, I quoted some from number crunches and

:51:53.:51:54.

another colleague quoted the House of Commons' library. That increase

:51:55.:51:59.

in 2 million voters who registered for the referendum was broadly

:52:00.:52:02.

evenly spread across the whole country so it doesn't make, if you

:52:03.:52:08.

included them all t doesn't make a material difference in the

:52:09.:52:11.

distribution of seats. Why not include them all. We live in the

:52:12.:52:16.

world where there are constant demands for more voter

:52:17.:52:18.

participation, to encourage people to be more involved. We have two

:52:19.:52:22.

million more people registered to vote, why not just recognise that

:52:23.:52:27.

and divide up the constituencies on the basis of the latest figures?

:52:28.:52:31.

People will suspect you don't want to do that because a lot of the 2

:52:32.:52:39.

million may not be Tory voters As I said, the spread across the country

:52:40.:52:46.

will not make a difference to the distribution of seats. The problem s

:52:47.:52:52.

if you do what the Bill does and say the boundary commission has to be

:52:53.:52:56.

finished by 2018 but start using a register for 2017, the practical

:52:57.:52:59.

consequence is that this register, this boundary review won't happen

:53:00.:53:01.

and what Labour is really trying to do is make sure the next election

:53:02.:53:04.

will be fought on boundaries which are 20 years out of date. They don't

:53:05.:53:10.

want any boundary change. They don't want more equal seats. They want the

:53:11.:53:15.

situation to continue being stacked in favour of them. They are also

:53:16.:53:17.

worried about having boundary changes at all because Labour MPs

:53:18.:53:23.

are worried they will be de-selected by all those new Labour members, run

:53:24.:53:26.

by Momentum and they are worried about that. Could you explain to our

:53:27.:53:33.

viewsers the logic of cutting our elected representatives by 50 and

:53:34.:53:36.

increasing our unelected representatives by 250? First, since

:53:37.:53:40.

the last election, the number of Lords is only a net increase of 15.

:53:41.:53:44.

But there was a lot more before that under the Conservatives Well, I of

:53:45.:53:47.

course and you remember Andrew I think I was probably on your

:53:48.:53:52.

programme, I was the minister who tried in the last Parliament to

:53:53.:53:56.

reform the House of Lords and have a much more elected House of Lords.

:53:57.:54:01.

That didn't get the support of MPs in the House of Commons. So now you

:54:02.:54:06.

are back to 250. I know what is happening at the moment is peers in

:54:07.:54:09.

the House of Lords themselves, led by the Lord Speak remember trying to

:54:10.:54:13.

look at ways they can reduce the size of the House of Lords to take

:54:14.:54:18.

account of the fact that it is too large but interestingly, since the

:54:19.:54:20.

last election, in fact since 2010, the cost of running the House of

:54:21.:54:23.

Lords has actually fallen by 14% in real terms. How much will it cost to

:54:24.:54:30.

add 250 peers? We are not added. I don't know where this - this is

:54:31.:54:34.

Labour number the number of peers since the last election has

:54:35.:54:37.

increased by 15 and I think since... The election was only a year ago and

:54:38.:54:45.

a bit Since 2010 I think it has increased by 100 but of course most

:54:46.:54:49.

of the costs of the House of Lords is fixed. Increasing the number of

:54:50.:54:53.

peers doesn't actual Lynne cease. Well they all sign on, so you add

:54:54.:54:59.

more on a daily ranchts the cost has fallen, since 2010 but I don't

:55:00.:55:03.

disagree with you about the need for House of Lords' reform. I was in

:55:04.:55:06.

favour of it before the last election. I tried to introduce a

:55:07.:55:10.

bill. We didn't get the support to get it through Parliament. You have

:55:11.:55:13.

made that point. Thank you for joining us. What do you think? I

:55:14.:55:17.

think the point you made about the Labour MPs is a fair one. A lot of

:55:18.:55:22.

them don't like the boundary review, partly because individual MPs are

:55:23.:55:25.

going to lose their seats or have seats merged and also for the

:55:26.:55:30.

moderate MPs or for lots of MPs they will find themselves up for

:55:31.:55:34.

re-selection and they will find themselves... Yes, that is a factor

:55:35.:55:39.

It is a more complicated factor. Do you accept the point he made if you

:55:40.:55:43.

do move to include the 2 million on, that would delay it until after the

:55:44.:55:49.

next election? Certainly I belief so technically because of the way the

:55:50.:55:55.

legislation is written you can enagent the changes through

:55:56.:55:57.

statutory implements as long as you use the premise of the original

:55:58.:56:00.

legislation, the boundary commission and the decision to use as it were

:56:01.:56:05.

the old roll is sort of bundled up with that. So you would have to do a

:56:06.:56:13.

lot of unpicking. One pointed that I thinking Pat Glass didn't raise was

:56:14.:56:17.

when you reduce the number of MPs 20600, the proportion who are

:56:18.:56:21.

Government pay roll MPs, ie more whipable, rises There are quite a

:56:22.:56:27.

lot of them. Yes, there are. I'm sorry I have to move on Another

:56:28.:56:29.

time. There will be another time. There's just time for a quick look

:56:30.:56:36.

back at the big political stories Here's Ellie with a review

:56:37.:56:39.

of the week in just 60 seconds. The PM told banqueting business

:56:40.:56:43.

bosses on Monday that Britian should champion free trade in the world

:56:44.:56:48.

and it was up to them The Shadow Business Secretary,

:56:49.:56:50.

Clive Lewis, said school and university leavers should ask

:56:51.:56:59.

more questions, as he launched Labour's mission-orientated

:57:00.:57:02.

industrial strategy. Government plans to take away peers'

:57:03.:57:06.

rights to veto secondary legislation were dropped on Thursday,

:57:07.:57:09.

but there was also a hint that the Lords need

:57:10.:57:11.

to behave themselves. In the week that saw wall-to-wall

:57:12.:57:13.

coverage of Nigel Farage standing in front of a lift,

:57:14.:57:15.

questions of whether the four-time Ukip leader should be made

:57:16.:57:19.

a Lord did not go away, and Theresa May didn't

:57:20.:57:22.

rule it out either. Such matters are normally never

:57:23.:57:25.

discussed in public. And Barack Obama wanted to reassure

:57:26.:57:29.

world leaders that there was nothing to worry about when it

:57:30.:57:32.

came to the future of It was part of so long,

:57:33.:57:35.

farewell, auf widersehen, The reason for that scoul on Angela

:57:36.:57:52.

Merkel's face yesterday is that Mr Obama seemed to take about eight

:57:53.:57:55.

minutes to answer each question. I think he is getting into the roll

:57:56.:58:00.

now of being a pundit, rather than a President. He was really relaxed

:58:01.:58:06.

when he explained what was going on. I was in America in 2008 when he

:58:07.:58:11.

won, we thought it was the start of a new America in 2008 when he won

:58:12.:58:14.

and got re-elected four years later. What did we know?

:58:15.:58:17.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:58:18.:58:20.

The question was which of Jeremy Corbyn's possessions

:58:21.:58:27.

Is it a) His prize marrow b) His favourite tracksuit

:58:28.:58:30.

c) His bicycle or d) A signed pair of his shoes.

:58:31.:58:32.

The shoes. Are you bidding for them? I'm afraid not. I might just sneak

:58:33.:58:42.

up and grab a pair when he is not around.

:58:43.:58:44.

Thanks Rachel, Rafael and all my guests.

:58:45.:58:47.

The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.

:58:48.:58:49.

I'll be back on Sunday with the Sunday Politics ...do join

:58:50.:58:52.

corpse of American democracy and poke around inside with a boat hook.

:58:53.:59:14.

As spaceship Earth spirals towards its finale,

:59:15.:59:17.

what the hell happened in that election?

:59:18.:59:20.

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