21/11/2016 Daily Politics


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Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.


Change is in the air, says Theresa May, as she warns


businesses they have to behave responsibly if they want


She's been addressing business leaders at the CBI's annual


conference this morning, but has she already backed away


from controversial plans to put workers on company boards?


Jeremy Corbyn accuses the Government of fanning the flames


of fear over immigration, and says he won't


But will his own policy win over the voters?


There's been a surprise result as French voters choose


the centre-right candidate for presidential


So is this man on course to win, and what does it mean


And Donald Trump thinks Scotland's a special place,


but it's not just because he owns a golf course there.


We'll be talking about the Scottish roots of the President-elect.


All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole


of the programme today it's the Conservative


MEP Daniel Hannan - he's been described as the man


who brought you Brexit - and the Labour MP Cat Smith -


she only entered Parliament last year, but she's already joined


Jeremy Corbyn's top team as Shadow Minister


First today, let's turn to France, where ex-President Nicolas Sarkozy


has been knocked out of a primary to choose the presidential


candidate of the centre-right Republican party.


The surprise result has put Francois Fillon,


who served as Mr Sarkozy's prime minister, in poll position to win


He faces Alain Juppe, another ex-Prime Minister


The winner will compete in next year's presidential election,


and if the polls are to be believed they are likely to end up competing


for France's top job against far-right leader Marine Le


Well, to find out more we're joined by our correspondent


How much of an upset was this? Well, it was supposed to be for many in


Cirque du Soleil's circle. The -- Sexual Assault Referral Centre


circle, some thought he would never come back, he had given reasons for


why for example that he didn't appear prompt innocent in politics


after he served as President during the time of the global financial


crisis, his point he was making was, he was at a loss because of events


he could not control. He tried to become President in gone 12. He says


he didn't go as right-wing as he wanted to. He went all out. Some


would see him taking an approach of Marine Le Pen, looking at Donald


Trump as well. He said things he like he wanted to see the banning of


the burqa on the beaches of France, the banning of the anybody cab in


school, if you refused to eat pork you wouldn't be able to have special


school meals as children through school. He had taken what should


woman say, particular nationalistic, pop his tick approach and it didn't


work. We have the two men, Francois Fillon, a. Toer Prime Minister who


wants to make his own reformed and Alain Juppe. The older politician a


former Prime Minister. What about the five referendums that have been


suggested, what are they? Well, this is something that Francois Fillon


wants to see, that he said he wants to see from everything from a


referendum when it comes to immigration, when it comes to the


domestic issues like the budget, and he has questioned the idea of an


agreement with the UK, the current situation when it comes to call lay


and the border police, British border police being on the French


side. These are some of the different reforms, the five


referendums he wans to see and he is notable Francois Fillon, he takes a


more pro-Russian stance than any of the other EU leaders, he criticised


Nato for saying it was meddling, exacerbating the problem with


Russia, so I think he will be a different face, and a face that many


would see if he were to make it the through as President, as perhaps


unpredictable on that front as Donald Trump, and he is somebody who


would, with links to the UK who has been called a Thatcherite. Someone


who wants to cut the civil service, he wants to reduce what he sees are


the inflexibility of the French working week, so make overtime


possible, the talk of working on a Sunday as well. It so there is a lot


of changes he wants to make, whereas who he is up against next Sunday,


the run off for their party in the Presidential debate is going to be


Alain Juppe, seen as more safe pair of hands but perhaps some would say


that is his curse as well. Thank you very much.


Do you welcome the fact Francois Fillon topped that poll and could


face Marine Le Pen rather than Alain Juppe. Yes, he will be what France


needs. He is a reformer. The fact of France is the French state has not


had a balanced budget since 1974. No-one has really tried to tackle


that. You know, we have an immediate interest, in the prosperity of


France. They are friends and allies and prosperous neighbours make good


customer, I am cautiously optimistic, it threw up the result


that was needed. Do you think he can beat Marine Le Pen? I hope, so


because Marine Le Pen has set her face against any reform, apart from


what she says about migration and so on, she is also well to the left of


the socialist whence it comes to economics, she wants hiring pensions


and higher Social Security spending and so on, and we are separated by a


short stretch of water. France in economic collapse is bound to be bad


for us whereas recovering is good for us. Cat to the left of the


socialist whence it comes to economics, she wants hiring pensions


and higher Social Security spending and so on, and we are separated by a


short stretch of water. France in economic collapse is bound to be bad


for us whereas recovering is good for us. Cat Smith, do you think to


the left of the socialist whence it comes to economics, she wants hiring


pensions and higher Social Security spending and so on, and we are


separated by a short stretch of water. France in economic collapse


is bound to be bad for us whereas recovering is good for us. Cat


Smith, do you think a "Quick divorce account "Would be good for the UK?


It would be better to have a full two-year negotiation, I don't think


a quick divorce to use the quote would be necessarily the advantage


of the UK, what has been thrown up in the French elections is that this


is the time to not be an establishment candidate, I think


that the voters across western Europe are looking for outsiders and


people that are perceived to be not part of that political class.


Whoever is selected has a real fight on their hands. You think Marine Le


Pen has a good chance? I am afraid I think she has a very good chance and


we need the strongest candidate possible. She is not good news for


Europe. Who would be the strongest candidate possible? To be honest, I


don't know and I would like to back any candidate, that is for the


French to decide. The socialists don't seem to be in... They have


withdrawn. But the fact that Francois Fillon got a massive vote,


he won pretty much every region of Metropolitan France, suggested that


he does have some appeal. That is encunning. The primaries have had a


bad time since Donald Trump. So have referendums if you are the person


calling them. If we think of David Cameron, he lost his own referendum.


Do you think they are a good idea to put the sort of referendums that


Francois Fillon is suggesting? Of the people who call them. I am not


saying the right or wrong way. Referendums are a good idea. It is


better to trust people. In way you have made the point. Occasionally


politicians don't get the answer they want. Well that is healthy,


that is necessary in a system, so otherwise we have an o towards I can


with a tiny number get to decide everything. Countries that have


referendums and make the most use do well, at the top of list is


well, at the top of list is Switzerland.


The question for today is what appears on the cushions in


Or d) An embroidered image of the Mexican border?


At the end of the show Cat and Dan will give us the correct answer.


It's the Confederation of British Industry's annual


conference today in central London, and both Theresa May and Jeremy


The Prime Minister set out her stall to business leaders this morning,


and Jeremy Corbyn will appear in front of delegates later.


While previous Conservative leaders have sought to reduce state


intervention, Theresa May has made it clear she intends to, in her


So let's look at some of the business policies that have


been rolling off the Government's production line so far.


Today at the CBI, she offered business a "grand bargain",


proposing investment and tax cuts in exchange for help


dealing with the worst excesses of capitalism.


Mrs May said the Government is offering an industrial strategy


that will include an extra ?2 billion a year by 2020 to support


She also pledged to ensure that the corporation tax rate


But in return, she said business also needs to change and that


a small minority "appear to game the system and work to a different


Her plans to reform capitalism include representing works


on company boards and giving shareholders a binding


Politicians don't get the answer they want. Well that is healthy,


that is necessary in a system, so otherwise we have an o towards I can


with a tiny number get to decide everything. Countries that have


referendums and make the most use do well, at the top of list is


Switzerland. Jeremy Corbyn will say more state intervention is needed.


which would see a Labour government borrow hundreds of billions


of pounds to invest in long-term infrastructure projects.


If we support free markets, value capitalism, and at business,


and we do, we must do everything we can to keep faith with them.


And with not enough people feeling that they share


in the wealth created by capitalism, and with the recent behaviour


of a small minority of businesses and business leaders undermining


the reputation of the corporate world as a whole, the way to keep


Well, we're joined now by the director general


Thank you for joining us Theresa May says she is offering the business


community a grand bargain, is that good from your perspective? Well, we


hugely welcome today what is a really pro enterprise speech, that


is setting out a vision for the UK, which put innovation and invention


at the heart, is talking about the value of free market, we welcome


that, at the same time, yes, the Prime Minister is talking about a


social contract, businesses recognise that, and are here to rise


to the challenge of making that work. But an extra ?2 billion a year


by 2020 of investment in research and development, you are going to


welcome that, but it is really a grand bargain, I mean the Labour


Party is offering ?500 billion over ten years? Well, I think that what


she has set out this morning is something which is, she talks about


industrial strategy which is about creating the enable hers for a


strong economy, raising productivity across the UK. The innovation part


is part of that. The skills agenda, infrastructure, connecting our


cities in the north and south, these are all other parts of the picture,


and we look forward to the Autumn Statement on Wednesday to see a bit


more of that plan. You are happy with the ?2 billion figure although


not starting until 2012. A bargain is a bargain, is it two way. Theresa


May says some businesses play to a different set of rules, is that


fair? There are some businesses that are not playing straight. I think it


is up to all businesses to call that out. Because it does affect and


tarnish the reputation of the many, so, this is something we welcome, I


think it is an area where businesses can step up, take a lead, and reform


in areas where it can be, we can prevent the actions of the two, of


the few from tarnishing the reputation of the many. Which


businesses in your mind are not being straight, if you like, to use


her language? Well, I am not going to name names but it was welcome in


the Prime Minister's speech that she recognised it was the few, and that


it is the majority of, are good citizens, they are investing in


community, they are sainting, they are creating jobs so it is


recognition of the few, and that is what we need to address and the


corporate governance green paper is something we welcome. I think people


might say it is easy to say there are some businesses that don't play


by the rules and they need to be called out. If nobody is going to


name who they are or the areas in which the rules are not being


adhered to, do they exist? Is that sort of false bogey man put up here


unless you are prepared to say who they are? I don't think, so we have


strong rule, we have very good corporate governance, it recognised


world the round as being strong, but where that happens, I think it is,


it is an important thing, to have the right mechanisms in place, and


by and large we really do, it is one of the areas I think the UK has seen


globally as being strong, but there is more do, we know there are issues


round trust and the reputation of business, this is part of the


progress towards fixing it. We welcome it and we will be engaging


very strongly on the Government's proposals in the green paper. Will


be that lot of talk about forcing companies to have workers sitting on


their boards, but it looks as if today Theresa May has rode back from


that, he is is saying the views of workers should be represented. Do


you remember that? This was about the representation of


workers and consumers's voices. Some companies do welcome that, we


have spoken to many. For some, it is the right model but it is not the


only way. We welcome that the Prime Minister


will set out a range of options of which that will be one, some


companies will welcome that. One thing which is right is where


companies engage really well, they are more productive. That is what we


need to aim to achieve. The implication was that there would


be a promise to put workers on company boards, it sounds like you


pleased there won't be any element of compulsion or that it will be the


only way to have their views represented.


A range of options is a really good idea.


Brexit, if it becomes clearer than now that the UK will pull out of the


single market and Customs union, will you still welcomed the grand


bargain Theresa May has put forward today?


We had to wait and see. Businesses would like more certainty. We


understand why it is not possible at the moment. We would like to see


transitional arrangements so companies most affected have time to


prepare. One thing we welcome today is she


has said when she can say something she will.


That is what businesses need to know, that they are being listened


to. When will that happen? Well, we are


looking over the next few months, triggering Article 50 by the end of


March, the timetable the Government has set out. We look forward to when


they have something to say. The uncertainty is affecting investment


and will be important for dad to be a plan quickly.


Every indication has shown that they are favouring pulling out of the


single market, in a way, they do not see leaving the EU unless we pull


out of the single market and the customs union, how worried would you


be by that? Language is important. We talk about


barrier free access to the single market which matters for businesses,


to trade without tariffs, nontariff barriers around regulation. It is an


important principle and we want this to be set out as an important


priority. The customs union is a trade-off


between, we would like to do new free trade deals with India, China,


US. The implications for red tape at Borders is significant sum.


What we are saying to Government is, consult with business, you will hear


different views and the evidence. Theresa May has been back on her


plans to have workers on company boards. She is offering only ?2


billion. By 2020. Is this a paltry offering?


No, she is saying the right things. We have a protectionist European


Commission and White House. Somebody needs to be making the case of free


trade, free accommodation. That will be the UK. She is right


that the climate in which to make that case is not friendly.


The extraordinary thing is there has never been a better time to be a


human being, extreme poverty has fallen down to 8% because African


and Asian countries have joined the global market. These idealistic


people are picketing G7 meetings, so she needs to make the argument in a


way that shows free trade is not about benefiting big culprits but


poverty alleviation, social justice, conflict resolution.


Many think the opposite, that they had been left behind. It is the


reality. Cat Smith, where do you stand in terms of this industrial


policy Jeremy Corbyn has talked about, ?500 billion, how would it


work? It is clear we need to listen to


business, and if we listened to Carolyn Fairbairn, there is a sense


of uncertainty from business. Whilst Theresa May says the right things


around people feeling left behind by globalisation, it needs to be


followed through with assurance that the gap between the very richest and


poorest does not expand in the way it is. Down is by to say when it


comes to looking at extreme poverty, that has happened, but when people


see people getting richer, they feel very much like the haves and


have-nots. Some people do not feel they have any opportunity.


If they don't have opportunities, with putting workers on company


boards make them feel better? The best businesses I note in my


constituency, with a good relationship with the workforce.


What about the worker on a company board?


That ensures the voice of the workforce is heard in those


important decisions and I support it.


Was it a mistake to write back from it?


No. That is what she promised initially.


There should be a presumption of innocence. Companies want to be


successful, they do not need legislation for that.


The difference between what executives are paid...


There is a case for tweaking the corporate Government rules to


encourage shareholders to think of themselves and behave like


proprietors rather than investors. With a couple of minor changes, some


of which we were hearing from the Business Secretary, allowing


shareholders to vote definitively on executive pay, this isn't


corporatism, the state taking over companies, but a couple of


improvements will yield huge dividends.


You heard what she had to say about Carolyn Fairbairn about Brexit, and


tariff free access to the single market. You think it could be sunny


uplands if we come out, but the business community does not agree


with you. They have a right to disagree. I am


not sure that is what Carolyn was saying, she looked forward to doing


trade deals with the US, China... And of course it is complicated but


the ability to do free trade agreements with the biggest


economies of the world, the US and China, is a pretty big game.


All the growth this century is outside the EU. We should be free to


do our own trade deals. She is right we want access to the


single market. Tariff free access. And I don't hear


any voices from any serious politician on either side of the


channel proposing that. Why are we fretting about something no one is


suggesting? Because they say in European


countries they don't know what the country wants until they have heard


from Theresa May. Jeremy Corbyn will outline his plans


for the ?500 billion of investment, a massive amount of borrowing.


Labour would be maxing out on the nation's credit card.


Economists say this is the best time to borrow, it has never been so


cheap. It has been low for a long time.


There is a case, if we don't invest, we can't grow our economy.


Austerity has failed. Six wasted years under this Government whereby


actually the vast majority of people, their wages have been held


low, prompt activity is stagnating -- Productivity.


That is not fair, we have had more jobs created in this country than


the whole of the EU. Productivity levels have been low in


this country, there has been wage stagnation. People are predicting it


will go down again. Given where we were starting from,


squeezing out that debt, we did well compared to every other


industrialised country in the world. I am bullish it will carry on, we


are well equipped, I see a great future for us, driverless cars,


biotech, 3D printing, we are a very inventive people.


Over the weekend, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn again rejected calls


by some in his party to pledge to cut immigration, saying


he would not make "false promises" like the Conservatives.


Instead he favours measures to mitigate the impact of migration.


Here he is talking to his party's national policy forum


Politicians and political parties have a choice in this age


Do we play on people's fears and anxieties?


Or do we take what might be the more difficult approach?


We can see the choice being taken by politicians on the hard right,


to whip up division against migrants, Muslims,


Mexicans, women, LGBT people, people with disabilities.


The fake anti-elitism of rich white men like Nigel Farage


and Donald Trump is farcical at one level, but in reality it is no


So, is the party's position on immigration and freedom


Well, perhaps not entirely - the Shadow Brexit Secretary,


Kier Starmer, has said immigration is too high, but last week


Shadow Home Secretary Diane Abbott warned against trying to "out


She said the idea that Labour was losing voters to the Tories


or Ukip because of immigration was false.


Well, to talk about this we're joined by the Labour MP Ian Austin.


Take that on board, are you losing voters to the Tories and Ukip


because of immigration? For a long time, people in the


country, in particular, parts of the Midlands, the Black Country that I


represent, think London based politicians have not been listening


to their concerns on immigration. We heard Diane last week visiting this


false choice, that to listen to people on immigration to come up


with fair answers to their concerns is in some way trying to out Ukip.


Nothing could be further from the truth. We have to listen to local


people and their concerns and do the hard work of coming up with


reasonable answers in line with our values. That is totally different


from the approach Ukip take. Does Jeremy Corbyn understands the


concerns of many Labour voters about levels of immigration?


Jeremy listens to Labour MPs from up and down the country. I hear those


comments and recognise, but I constituents are telling me the same


Ian is hearing. People are worried about immigration, concerned about


their wages being undercut, strains on public services.


We need to start talking about immigration in an open and honest


way. The reality is, without levels of


immigration, you can't have public services and the NHS functioning. We


need to be honest and say there needs to be immigration but we need


to make sure the consequences on communities are not that they can't


get a school place or the waiting list at hospitals all GPs are not


long. Do you think the Labour Party has


done enough to mitigate some of the effects of immigration on


communities like yours? Clearly, we haven't. We should be


taking the benefits that well-paid migrants bring to the country, city


traders, hedge fund dealers in London, using the taxes they pay, to


relieve the pressure low paid migration can cause to the NHS and


schools in areas like the Black Country. We should insist further


that every time a large company has to take on a skilled foreign worker


from abroad because they can't find those in this country, they should


take on an apprentice as well. Much more to deport foreign criminals, we


should bring back fingerprinting for illegal immigrants at Calais,


abolished by this Government. Much more on the Border Force which


again was cut by this Government. We should say people should not be


able to come here and be unemployed, or claim benefits, until they have


worked and paid into the system, or claim benefits for Jordan not in the


country. There are lots of things we can do


based on values of hard work, was was witty and contribution, 1


million miles away from Ukip. Diane presented this false choice of


listening to people on immigration that you are aping the far right,


that is nonsense. Jeremy Corbyn believes it is not


about the numbers, that people are concerned about the numbers of


immigrants coming to the UK, is he wrong?


Look at what happened with the countries, the Government estimated


the numbers wrong lead which have different effects in the country.


Politicians in London need to get out of London, come to areas like


the Black Country and listen to ordinary people.


These people are not racist, they have perfectly legitimate concerns.


It is about time politicians started listening to them and responding.


Diane Abbott, Jeremy Corbyn, London based MPs with a different view of


the world to constituencies in other parts of the country. Therefore they


don't understand or appreciate the level of concern Ian Austin has


outlined. Do you to see lower levels of immigration to the UK?


Regarding London, immigration plays activity in the country. But I don't


think there is anything in is saying is not incompatible with the vast


majority... There is a lot of common ground.


Do you want to see low levels of immigration, like Keir Starmer and


Ian Austin, or do you agree with Jeremy Corbyn, that it is not about


the numbers? I won't be drawn on the numbers but what I will say is...


Why not? They have a lot of common ground on this. People want to know


about the numbers, it is a straightforward question, do you


want to see low levels or do you want to see them about the same or


more? I think where immigration benefits this country it should be


welcomed and the fact is people who are migrants in this country are


more likely to put more into the economy than take out in welfare. It


is migrants who add to our chances of success as a country, I won't be


attacking anyone who is a migrant in this country because the migrants in


my community are the ones who contribute the most. But that is not


the say it, people do have concerns and fears and I think that, I have


had it from my constituencies and Ian has had it from his, that is a


problem, that we need to address as a party because for a very long time


we did try and dodge the issue about talking about immigration. Do you


think now that Government of any colour would have to do something


about the numbers, of people cough coming to the UK or can you do more


as Cat Smith and Ian awes the inare saying to address the impact, and


not focus on the numbers? I think there is a feeling that immigration


is out of control, and people want to feel that we should be backing


control of who comes in, and roughly in what numbers, please don't make


the mistake of attributing false motives to people. The people who


have argued that, as Ian Austin says are not in the least bit racist,


they want to have controlled, legal immigration when it benefits the


economy. And lower? I think probably slightly lower than recently, I


suspect that will happen any way. I think many voters would light it to


be a lot lower. There is a tiny number who want drastic cuts. I


don't recognise that. There was a poll last month said 88% of people


want skilled worker to come here, so this is about being able to sift who


we allow in, to benefit from the energy and enterprise and to be fair


to non-EU immigrants to people of Commonwealth backgrounds who find


they are discriminated against. Jeremy Corbyn is clear, there will


be no targets or limits on iminvestigation after Brexit, as far


as he is concerned, if he was in charge, is he right on that 1234


Look, I think all the parties really need to wake up and listen to what


people in place like the Black Country are saying about this.


Politics would be simple, wouldn't it, if I would say isn't the NHS


great, aren't the Tories terrible, but that is not what politics is


like, what we have do is listen to people's genuine and deeply held


concerns and do the hard work of coming up with fair and reasonable


answers to address them. I think by ghising this and or saying we won't


enter into debate or focus on concern people have, that would be a


disaster for Labour in this Parliament just as it was in the


last one. Thank you. Now, all eyes will be


on the House of Commons and Chancellor Phillip Hammond


as he delivered his first autumn So let's take a look at that


and the other political events likely to be making


the news this week. When the Commons gets


going this afternoon, MPs will be debating


the Higher Education and Research Bill, and Labour


will be attempting to make a number of amendments, including bringing


back students' maintenance grants. On Tuesday, the Office


for National Statistics publishes its latest set of data


on the state of the UK's Wednesday sees Prime Minister's


Questions at noon, but the big event of the day is the Autumn Statement


from Chancellor Phlip Hammond. This is his first big set-piece


statement in the Commons, and he's said he wants to make


the UK economy "watertight" to cope The Shadow Chancellor John


McDonnell will respond, and after the statement,


the independent Office for Budget Responsibility -


the official economic watchdog - publishes its latest


Economic and Fiscal Outlook. Then on Thursday it'll be the turn


of the independent Institute for Fiscal Studies to give


their take on the Mr Hammond's work - a view which usually


has a big impact on how On Friday, the Women's Equality


Party hold their first every three-day conference -


that's in Manchester. And with me now to discuss


all of that are Laura Hughes, from the Daily Telegraph,


and the Daily Mirror's Ben Glaze. Dismissing this and or saying we


won't enter into debate or focus on concern people have, that would be a


disaster for Labour in this Parliament just as it was in the


last one. Thank you. Welcome. What you expect from Philip


Hammond, often known as spread sheet Phil? We know a bit about what is


going to be coming uple he has talked about infrastructure, putting


money into developing roads and our transport systems in this country,


we also know he will be introducing a ban on pension cold calling, there


is going to be a crackdown on workers' perk, mobile phone


contracts things like that, there will be a focus on Jams, so we will


see tax cuts for those people and a freeze on fuel duty. Those are the


main things we can hope to expect. That is comprehensive. Let us look


at the future growth prospects. It a big moment when we hear from the


Office for Budget Responsibility, and it will give us a slightly


clearer idea as to what is being expected in the years ahead. That is


is right. We expect some grave numbers from the OBR on Wednesday,


so far the forecasts haven't been official forecasts, this will be the


first time we get to see the impact of Brexit, on those public finances,


on growth, and we can find out exactly how much a black hole is


likely to be in the Treasury coffers after we lever the EU. Current


projections are it might be about 1 hundred billion he will have to


find, those are huge numbers for the Chancellor delivering his first


Autumn Statement. Brexit will loom large, in fact it will no doubt be a


thread running through the whole Autumn Statement. He has talked


about uncertainty in the past, bumps in the road, perhaps they weren't


his words but in terms of the current data we have now, there


doesn't seem to have been that much bad news coming the Government's way


There is consumer confidence but Philip Hammond was doing the rounds


yesterday and a lot of Tory MPs accused him of being overly


pessimistic, but is it right for the Chancellor for cautious or is he


just a sort of half empty I kind of guy? I don't know, there are mixed


figures, mixed number, some say this is great for exports so some people


are doing well, others are not so sure, he is really kind of


emphasising that it is the uncertainty, it is what is going to


happen in the future, What about Labour's response? What will they


focus on? Labour will call for the ESA cuts that are coming to be


ameliorated. They want the Universal Credit cuts that are coming down the


line, they want those put back, but the problem for Philip Hammond is


there isn't any money left, Labour wants a massive public spending,


about ?500 billion on infrastructure, John McDonnell has


talked about ?250 billion invest vestment. 100 billioner, another 150


billion generated from the private sectors that would put money in and


get the economy growing and generate more cash for the Treasury. But the


problem is there isn't that money available, and Philip Hammond is not


going to have a lot to play with come Wednesday. They always complain


about that. What about stories in the paper, the prospect of Tony


Blair returning to front line politics, not front line but


politics in order to campaign against a hard Brexit. Dismissed


chip of course. Well, purportedly he is setting up an institute to


influent the Brexit process. I spoke to a lot of Tory MPs who were


delighted with the news that Tony Blair is coming back to argue


everything they don't want, they see him has a discredited establishment


type figure. I heard that over the other side of the table. There was a


picture of Blair holding up the sign saying I voted Remain, I said he


voted, have you. Any truth in it? It would be great for the Brexiteers to


take control of the negotiations it is what they want. On that note,


thank you both very much. One of our guests today has been described as


the man who brought you Brexit. Indeed former Northern Ireland


Secretary Theresa Villiers said she tect texted him to congratulate him.


If Theresa May says Brexit means Brexit, what does Dan say it means?


He has written a new book, I have it here called what next for about what


necks. He has -- next. He has made a Daily Politics soapbox and here is


So far, attention has focused disproportionately on our


relationship with the Brussels institutions here, and with


Is it going to be a hard or a soft Brexit?


Are we going to have access to the single market?


But, really, the answer to those questions was contained


A 52-48 vote is not an instruction to end all our institutional


It is an instruction to begin a phased and gradual


Having taken back control, in other words, having


recovered our legal supremacy, there is no reason why we shouldn't


replicate some of our existing arrangements through bilateral


In other words, a common market, not a common Government.


No-one on either side of the Channel is seriously proposing


In fact, every non-EU state in Europe except Belarus


enjoys free trade with the European single market.


Far more important is the question of our relations with the 165


The countries that will account for almost all of the world's


Here, we have an opportunity to do something bold and beautiful.


We can become, in the Prime Minister's phrase, the global


Genuinely unrestricted commerce, based on mutual product recognition,


rather than the imposition of common stantdards,


will do more to raise living standards in developing countries,


Instead of coming at a cost to British taxpayers,


it will bring benefit to British consumers.


And the biggest benefits will be felt by the people on the lowest


incomes who stand to gain the most proportionally from cheaper prices.


Back in charge of our own affairs, we can make Britain the best place


We can have lower, flatter, simpler taxes.


We can have cheap energy, lighter regulation,


We have spent 44 years in a dark and cramped room.


Now the door swings open and we see a little rectangle of light.


As our eyes adjust, we glimpse the colours of a summer meadow


beyond, with swallows diving against the blue sky


Let us not hang around at the doorstep.


That was Dan Hannan and he is here. I am sure he will give us more


poetic lines in the next discussion. Do you accept there is still a lot


of confusion around what the deal will the EU will be, because vote


leave weren't clear themselves about what it would look like? I mean,


that is perfectly fair, vote leave wept from the far left of the Labour


Party, trade unions Ukip so there was a variety of opinions, it is


unclear because a lot of people have the idea that you are either in or


out of the single market, it isn't a single entity. It is an almall gap


of different thing, some bits are attractive. The real basis of the


single market is the prohibition on goods from another member state. Let


us stick to your idea, that it isn't a binary decision, you say you can


have other options but you are in as a member or you are not. You are


not. That is not true. It is a conglomerateration over many years


of lots of different responsibilities and obligation,


some of which work for the benefit of the consumer, some which bring


down price, some are very bad for us, the common external tariff. That


assumes we can pick or choose. There won't be that, but in among this


confusion that you have conceded existed because there are a


different range of views, doesn't mean that Parliament should have a


say? No-one questions that, that was very clear. But a vote now


triggering Article 50. They want another vote. Fine, if that keeps


everybody happy, let's do it. It is not a binary decision if your mind,


but let us listen to what you said regarding the single market last


year. Absolutely nobody is talking about


threatening our place in the single You said nobody was talking about


that, but people were, and to clear up for our viewers this was put out


by the group Open Europe, do you think we should leave the single


market or don't you? You saw that filleted by your colleague Andrew


Neil yesterday. I will say one more time, there are aspects of the


single market I think we should keep, we should however leave the


customs union and leave the jurisdiction of the European Court


of Justice, you say it is, why should the other countries do that?


Let us tray and not be part of... It sets a precedent to everybody else.


We will all behave out of our rational self-interest. What makes


you think that? Generally I find in diplomacy decisions are made on the


basis of present interest rather than past grudges and just as it is


in our interest to have prosperous neighbours who are good customers it


is not in anyone's interest in Europe to have a trade war. That


means giving us everything you have outlined. You said there wasn't any


digs about leaving the single market, but you do want to leave


parts of it. You want everyone to accept the vision that you have for


the single market, if we were to be like Norway which I think at times


you thought was a good model we would have to accept the rules of


the EU, freedom of movement and contribution the EU budget.


I have made it clear all the way through, Norway or the destiny


preferable, is not nearly as good as Switzerland outside and we should


aim to do something better. The broad model should be something


closer to the Swiss rather than Norway. I am not in favour of


drawing -- Joining the economic economic area.


And some freedom of movement? We will have to find a compromise. As I


said, no one is talking about screwing the tab completely shut.


Going back to the old will you needed a job to come to, 70,000 EU


nationals came looking for work in the UK last year. That would be a


major impact on migration and make a distinction on the people being let


in. Do you agree we will be able to have


our cake and eat it, pick some parts of the single market we would like


to keep? I like the optimism from down but in


the world of reality there will be a move in Europe to punish us for the


decision we have made to leave. They don't want to get the message you


can leave the EU and keep the bits you like and get rid of those you


don't. I worry we will be punished. In which case it is a protection


racket. Thank goodness we are leaving. And


we will have to lead the bits that are positive? The price we are


paying to completely leave... I think they will behave out of self


interest, I don't expect any favours.


The German finance minister said there is no a la carte menu, the


whole menu or none. The Dutch finance minister said Boris Johnson,


what he is offering our options are not available.


On the basis it may be rhetoric, they won't do what you say.


That is their high opening bid. Both sides you would expect to make a


high opening bid. We will end up I am pretty confident with something


where we are in the free market but outside the political union. A lot


of the people now... That is the common market, you said


you wanted to come out of a common market.


To repeat, there is a pan European free trade area, from Iceland to


Turkey without tariffs. I don't think anyone is proposing Britain


would be the only country apart from Belarus, that would face tariffs and


trade barriers. This is the first country to have a


Brexit. Donald Tusk has said the only real alternative to a hard


Brexit is no Brexit. This is the incredible thing. Two


thirds of people I talked to in Brussels still do not accept the


result, they still think somehow Britain will come to its senses. If


they are hard enough in their rhetoric that we might switch


brands, that is a bad misreading of our character, when people feel they


are being bullied, they go the other way.


Theresa May is refusing to guarantee the residency of the millions of


nationals from EU countries, should she guarantee the rights of those


people now? Absolutely, these people have lived


and worked and Koch beat it, had families in the UK, they deserve


some level of security. There are unknowns in business but unknowns in


people's lives. Hundreds of people have contacted me


worried about this in my constituency. Not the most diverse


of constituencies but we have many European people contributing in


universities in particular who want stability.


They deserve that. It means we can offer to many British people living


elsewhere in Europe. I agree, so do 84% of British


voters. High opening bids.


Now, let's talk about some rather unusual goings-on,


as the Conservatives seek to replace their MEP


The vacancy arose after the last man in the job, Timothy Kirkhope,


was given a seat in the Lords by David Cameron in his final


It would normally go to the person who came second in the Conservative


list for the region at the 2014 European elections,


which in this case is former Olympic rower Alex Story.


But instead, the party has chosen to hand the seat to the man


who came third on the list, the Leeds councillor John Procter.


Mr Story has been attempting to overturn the decision,


but last week lost an attempt to block Mr Procter's


How are you feeling about it all? It has been a bit of a shock.


Historically in the UK we have physical representation underpinned


by a democratic process. I won the support of the Yorkshire


Conservative membership. I was on the ballot box. I campaigned in that


capacity as number two on the list, I want 127,000 votes. What happened


last week is that the Conservative Party Central office decided to


overturn the ballot results. In effect, setting off in my view a


constitutional issue. They have decided, somebody centrally, in this


case, Gareth Fox, a man who is elected by no one, he decided to


appoint to an elected seat a person who received neither the support of


the Conservative Party membership in Yorkshire North of the electorate.


Let me read the statement from the Conservative Party, following the


departure from the European Parliament, John Proctor has been


confirmed by the Conservative Party. He will be a strong voice for


Yorkshire and the Humber as we get on with the job of delivering what


the people of the UK voted for, making a success of Brexit. Why


would you want to spend thousands of pounds of your money for a job that


won't exist in a few years? I have campaigned for the


Conservative Party for nearly 20 years. My father is a father of


political -- Is a professor of political science, I have grown up


with political economy in my blood. It would have been a huge honour for


me, having fought on the Brexit side of the arguments, to go to the


European Parliament and put a very positive case about our relationship


with the European Union. As you know, I am half English, half


Austrian, born in France, I wife is German, I had Italian and Spanish


cousins. I love Europe. I wanted the opportunity, possibly the most


exciting part of our history since the end of the Second World War, to


do something positive. Do you sympathise, has he been


mistreated? Of course I sympathise. But those


are the rules. That is the decision made. That he


has been leapfrogged by the third person?


That is what the court has decided to uphold. I would be sore about it.


The court did not overturn anything, we were trying to stop the


nomination of John Proctor because we had been given 30 days and we had


a dispute with the Conservative Party and we needed to get more time


to go to a judicial evaluation. The injunction for the High Court on


the council was not something that had to do with the vote but delaying


the process of nominating John Proctor. The important thing is a


question of democracy. Will you pursue it? It is an


interesting thing. The bottom line for me is that, having worked so


hard for an organisation for so long, I stood for three general


elections, I won the ballot for membership in 2014, and received


127,000 votes, John received zero, he did not get the backing of


anybody, not that many in the Conservative Party in Yorkshire. He


has been appointed to an elected position.


The question is, will I do it? It is difficult for me to say. I haven't


decided. We have the litigation papers ready to go and a strong


case. The bottom line to me is this. If an


organisation can treat its volunteers and its candidates like


slave Labour, and attacked them as they have when really they haven't


done anything wrong or they haven't bought the party in disrepute in any


particular way, what is the point of the organisation?


Let us know if you go ahead with further legal action.


Now, it's to find out the answer to our quiz.


The question was, what appears on the cushions in Donald


Or d) An embroidered image of the Mexican border?


I have not had an invitation to Trump Towers, I think it is the coat


of arms. It has got to be. It would be nice


to think it was any of the others. You are right.


Well, we're joined now by the heraldic consultant -


and we're pleased to hear there is such a job -


Welcome to the programme. Tell us about this coat of arms of Donald


Trump, what does it represent? It is interesting, arcane heraldic


Scottish law provided evidence of his deep and Ophelia and touches on


the royal prerogative. Donald Trump in 2008 tried to get the Government


support in Scotland for one of his golf courses and he put out this


Trump coat of arms. In fact they were created by two people in his


staff. You can see clear violations in the rules. Scotland has strict


heraldic regulations. The monarch is delegated the royal authority to the


Scottish judge. Trump was forced to abandon this coat of arms


embarrassingly. Four years later the crown granted a coat of arms to the


golf course, not Donald Trump. So the pillows are for an Aberdeen


golf course. We can see in there, what does it


say about him? A coat of arms is a shorthand to


history. We have these Scottish lion rampant


in a stylised version. Two stars beneath it for his American


heritage. And a representation for the golf course. And the double


headed eagle representing his Scottish- Germanic heritage.


The eagle is grasping two golf balls!


What if my guests wanted their own coat of arms, how difficult is it?


They must be a person of outstanding quality.


Anyone who has some professional qualification, a university degree


or stand out in the community, can petition for a coat of arms for


?5,000 in England, ?3000 in Scotland.


It is a prolonged process but the wonderful way to preserve your final


heritage for future generations because Coats of Arms of personal


property which cannot be assumed by others.


Any ideas for a motto if you had a coat of arms or was it might look


like? It would have to be some quote from


the Bard. They play a big part particularly liked the bit at the


end of Henry V where the announces the enormous war dead on the other


side... He had thought about it. And for


you? I am wondering whether there are any


Smith coats of arms I could steal. Can you clone them. Thanks you very


much. The One O'clock News is starting


over on BBC One now. I'll be here at noon tomorrow,


with all the big political stories of the day -


do join me then.


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