05/12/2016 Daily Politics


05/12/2016

Jo Coburn is joined by Nadine Dorries and Barry Gardiner to analyse the implications of Italy's referendum and to look ahead to the Supreme Court hearing on triggering Article 50.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:38.:00:41.

It's a big day at the Supreme Court, where judges are deciding

:00:42.:00:45.

whether Parliament's consent is required before ministers can

:00:46.:00:48.

The four-day hearing is being broadcast live,

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It's auf Wiedersehen to him, and arrivederci to him,

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as the far right challenger for the Austrian presidency

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is defeated and the Italian Prime Minister bows out

:01:02.:01:03.

A report raises the alarm over social integration in the UK today.

:01:04.:01:10.

We've been talking to its author Louise Casey and she isn't

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We can't expect, with the high levels of immigration we've been

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having, for integration just to take care of itself.

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And from shouts of "lock her up" to the Brexit debate at its most

:01:25.:01:28.

heated, has 2016 seen politicians be even ruder and more insulting

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All that in the next hour and with us for the whole

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of the programme today, two MPs who would never hurl

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insults at each other on national television.

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Although you should have heard them just before we came on air!

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It's the Conservative MP and now author Nadine Dorries,

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and Labour's Shadow International Trade Secretary, Barry Gardiner.

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First today, let's talk about the results from yesterday's

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Prime Minister Matteo Renzi has said he will resign

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after losing the vote, which he called over his plans

:02:11.:02:19.

for constitutional reform but which came to be seen as a chance

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to register discontent with Mr Renzi and establishment politics.

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The result is being seen by some as a blow to the European Union

:02:25.:02:27.

because several of the leading opposition parties are opposed

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to Italy's continuing membership of the single currency although not

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In the short term there are also serious concerns over the financial

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Here's Matteo Renzi speaking earlier.

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TRANSLATION: Today's Italian democracy is based

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When we asked a confidence vote, we proposed to simplify the system,

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eliminate separate assemblies, reduce the cost of politics

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and broaden the areas of direct democracy.

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This is the reform that we brought to a referendum.

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I'm sorry, but I go away without regrets.

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Because if democracy wins, and "No" wins, it is also true

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that we have fought the good fight with passion and determination.

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What was obvious and evident from day one,

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It backfired for Matteo Renzi. Some would say that political absurdity

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in Italy is business as usual. They have had 63 governments since 1945.

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How significant is the vote for the rest of Europe? It is significant

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because it was a referendum and it was on a constitutional matter. It

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is quite indicative of what is happening across the European Union.

:03:43.:03:46.

We knew the EU wasn't working. David Cameron tried to reorganise it. He

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tried to change things and they were not playing ball with him and we

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ended up with our own referendum. We were probably first to go but I

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think we will see ricochets across the European Union, where people are

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actually using their democratic mandate and their voice to express

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their dissatisfaction with what is happening in their own country. It

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is Italy now. I wouldn't be surprised if it is Holland or

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somebody else next. What we are seeing is the people, the

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electorate, standing up and letting their dissatisfaction be very

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well-known. This was a constitutional reform referendum. He

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made it about himself, Matteo Renzi. Do you agree that this is also a

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chance to kick the EU even though the movement which has increased in

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recent years is against the single currency and not the EU per se? I am

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not sure that this is specifically about the EU. I do think it has much

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wider ramifications for the rest of us in the EU and those of us who

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will soon be out of it. Why? Because I think what is happening here is we

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are seeing a disaffection with the way in which politics as usual is

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conducted. For us specifically in the UK, I think what we are looking

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at here is even greater difficulty in going into a negotiating period.

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We have already seen that we have the German, the French and the Dutch

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elections next year. Now to have the Italian elections means actually

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doing the negotiating that we need to do to come out of the EU about

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our new relationship with the EU is going to be that much more

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difficult. Do you agree? Will it be harder to negotiate Brexit for

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Theresa May at her government rather than easier as a result of this? No.

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I don't know the answer to that and I don't think Barry does. I do know

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that Theresa May has a very clear set of objectives and I don't think

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it matters who is in power, whichever European state it is. We

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have our objectives and she will go to negotiate those and hopefully

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achieve them. Don't you think there could be a domino effect as Nadine

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Dorries said first of all? There could be a momentum building,

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whether it is about the EU or domestic politics. When you look at

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France and the possibility of Marine Le Pen being President, there is a

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broadly anti-EU movement on the right. I think it is an anti

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business as usual feeling. That is anti-EU for many people. That is

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right and it expresses itself in many ways. Stephen Hawking has been

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very interesting when he writes about this. Last week he penned an

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incredibly fascinating article going right into the politics and saying,

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look, all around the world, people are able to see what each other is

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doing, and they find that actually the inequalities in the world need

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to be addressed. He is saying that more people have access to a mobile

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phone in Africa than clean water, and that means that they can see the

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inequalities, they can see the financial markets, and exactly what

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is going on. That is the failure of successive governments including the

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current one. I don't think your average voter in Sunderland does the

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inequalities across the world. I think they just do what is happening

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on their doorstep and how the EU impact on them and their particular

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family. And that is why they went and cast their votes in the way that

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they did. I understand exactly what you are saying. It is a much more a

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writing intellectual argument to make. I am not sure that it actually

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distilled down and applies to the British people that voted in the EU

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referendum. Let's stick to the situation in Italy and ask our

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little correspondent Gavin Lee what happens next. They are trying to

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move as quickly as possible. The current President of Italy, for the

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past few hours we believe he has been meeting with Matteo Renzi, but

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he has not yet offered his full resignation, and he will do that

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this afternoon. Because the democratic party has still got the

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majority of government, if there is another interim leader, who can

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drive the support car through, given the worries and the volatility of

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the financial markets. We believe the man in the front line for that

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job at the moment is the finance minister, a technocrat, Mario Monti

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figure of time gone by, not known for his charisma but a man used to

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dealing with the banks of Italy and the vulnerability of the banks as

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well. That could be a possibility. Somebody the Italian media is

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talking about. We expect that to happen fairly quickly because of the

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unpredictability factor. The talk of a real crisis, I think this has been

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caused by a popular movement. If you talk to Italians and officials here,

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they say it is under control. This place has seen 63 governments in 70

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years. We have had the populism of Brexit and Donald Trump, but they

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think if they move quickly they can avoid panic. You are talking about a

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caretaker government, which would not be for the first time in Italy.

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When would elections be? Would they have to be new elections and if

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there were new elections, how well would 5-star Movement do? There are

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some ifs and buts there. At the moment nothing would be set to

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change. 2018 is when the elections are due. Matteo Renzi, if he can

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find a counterpart, let's say the finance minister, it depends on the

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ceiling. -- the feeling. Our people happy? The chameleon who became the

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leader of this party, he is calling for an early election and he

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believes his party is strong enough to take on the mantle. He compares

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himself in terms of popularity to the likes of Ukip in the UK and

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Donald Trump at that is as far as it goes. It is not an anti-immigration

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party, not a Eurosceptic. He wants to see changes on the Euro but he is

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distancing himself. There are factors affecting this. Initially

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everybody is worried about the financial situation in this place

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and potential contagion for the rest of the eurozone. Thank you.

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Let's talk now to the financial analyst Louise Cooper who's been

:10:08.:10:10.

looking at how the markets have been reacting to the referendum vote.

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As Gavin says, the political crisis to some extent could be described as

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business as usual. The real issue is the financial pressure now on Italy.

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And the reaction from the market has been very muted today. It has been

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factored in? Essentially. Italian stock market is actually up, which

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is extraordinary. It opens down about 2% but now it is up about

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4.5%. But the Italian -- 0.5%. At the Italian stock market is one of

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the worst performing. And if you look at Italian bikes, that is a big

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issue. The oldest bank in the world, their share price, and other bank

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share prices, down something like 85% year to date. In middle of

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capital raising, they are desperately trying to convert into

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equity. We have the Italian stock market, Italian banking shares,

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Italian bond markets. They thought this was going to happen. They had

:11:14.:11:18.

sold off before this. Right. But what is the risk of contagion or

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some kind of banking crisis like the one we saw a few years ago when

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there was a deep recession across Europe? Is a big difference right

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now is that we have central banks giving banks money, essentially.

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Will they bail out the Italian banks in trouble? There are two questions.

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First of all, are they facing a liquidity crisis? No. On Thursday we

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have the European Central Bank meeting and they are likely to

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announce more quantitative easing, which is quite important. Mario

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Draghi, the boss of the ECB, will be asked a lot about how many Italian

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bonds he has bought today. One of the key thing is you have political

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risk. What happens with political risk? Investors demand a higher

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interest rate for taking on the risk of lending to the Italian

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government. That has already happened. The Italian government for

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the first time in five years has got to pay more than Spain to borrow,

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and that shows you... Not something to boast about! But that has already

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happened. What is interesting is they are probably not paying as high

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interest as they really would, because you have got the European

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Central Bank in there doing quantitative easing, buying Italian

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bonds. In a way we can't really see the markets and what they think of

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this financial crisis because the central banks are distorting the

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market and that is the problem. What about the fate of the Euro in this?

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It has obviously fallen. People could be thinking this is a good

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time to go and buy Euros is, people here, that is. People talk about the

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collapse of sterling. It has recovered the worst of its loss. ?1

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used to buy 1 euro and now it is 1 euro so we have recovered about half

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of the losses. -- 1 euro and 20 cents. We have four big players

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having elections coming up. But the problem with currencies as they are

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relative. If you don't like the Euro, what do you buy? The yen?

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There are lots of problems globally. Do you buy sterling? But will there

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be pressure on the Euro? I don't see how there can't be. The European

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Central Bank is still printing money and when you print it that tends to

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devalue your currency. We will see what they say on Thursday but there

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is no sign of that coming to an end yet. The Italians were not the only

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ones to go to the polls over the weekend. Yesterday Austrian voters

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decided not to elect the far right candidate. Do you see that as good

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news for EU leaders? Yes, I think most EU leaders are very relieved.

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This would have been the first time there would have been a far right

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head of state in any European country. I think there is a relief

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that. We want the democratic will to be able to assert itself. Popular

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democracy is a good thing but when it spills into populism and spills

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into right-wing fascism, that is something that you're a pretty dusty

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to be very careful about India. Can I pick -- something that Europe does

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need to be careful about indeed. Can I pick up on the way that the ECB is

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printing money? In buying those bonds from Europe, they are going

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against their founding principles. That is why there is real concern

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about the stability of the eurozone as a currency. On that basis, one

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may argue they don't have an alternative if you want to keep some

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of these banks going in a big economy like Italy. That kind of

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financial instability could still destabilise here down the line. Can

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I make a point because what you have just said is fascinating? You

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explained it so easily! That is why we get her on! I feel very sorry for

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Italian people in this situation. They are paying more for their money

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and huge amounts of quantitative easing to this extent surely brings

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inflation. Am I right in saying that? It didn't here for quite a

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long period of time is I am the problem is that it didn't. That is

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the bizarre thing. It is opposed to bring in inflation and it never has.

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Also very peculiar. It is reminiscent of the old days in Italy

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when you could buy 1 million lire for the equivalent of ?1. That

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financial mixture put them in this situation and this seems startlingly

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like going back to those days again of political instability. We will

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find out how it unfolds over the next few months. Lots to talk about

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in 2017 as well. We thought 2016 was busy!

:16:12.:16:13.

The question for today is all about one of a number of government

:16:14.:16:18.

memos which were leaked to yesterday's newspapers.

:16:19.:16:20.

One was a note telling ministers to, well, stop leaking to the papers.

:16:21.:16:23.

Another instructed ministers to stop calling Boris Johnson

:16:24.:16:25.

So what are they, according to the Mail on Sunday,

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a) Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson.

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At the end of the show, Nadine and Barry will give

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Now, in the last hour, we've seen the opening of a landmark legal

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Over the next four days, the 11 justices at the Supreme Court

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will decide whether Parliament's consent is required before ministers

:16:55.:16:56.

That's the mechanism that means official Brexit negotiations can

:16:57.:17:01.

begin ahead of the UK's departure from the European Union.

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At the beginning of November, the High Court in England ruled

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that the Government does not have power under the Crown's prerogative

:17:10.:17:12.

to give notice pursuant to Article 50 for the UK to withdraw

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In other words, it took an Act of Parliament to get us

:17:16.:17:21.

into the Common Market in 1972 and it will take an Act

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This led to criticism of the high court judges by some parts

:17:25.:17:30.

of the press and some politicians, while the Government said it

:17:31.:17:33.

That appeal starts today and is expected to last most of the week.

:17:34.:17:42.

The original parties to the court case, investment manager

:17:43.:17:48.

Gina Miller and hairdresser Deir Tozetti Dos Santos, have been

:17:49.:17:50.

joined by lawyers for the Scottish and Welsh devolved administrations,

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The ten male and one female judges are expected to deliver

:17:54.:17:57.

If, as some commentators expect, the government loses,

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ministers will then bring forward a bill, possibly just 16 words long,

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which will then have to pass through both Houses of Parliament.

:18:09.:18:11.

So, the court began sitting just over an hour ago in Westminster,

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where, unusually in the British legal system, the hearing

:18:15.:18:16.

It began with the Government's top legal officer and Cabinet minister

:18:17.:18:21.

Jeremy Wright telling the court why they believed it was ministers,

:18:22.:18:23.

and not Parliament, who should start the UK's withdrawal from the EU.

:18:24.:18:30.

There is nothing in the wording of the European Communities Act or

:18:31.:18:39.

indeed in later legislation to inhibit withdrawal from the European

:18:40.:18:45.

Union treaties or subject it to a requirement of prior legislative

:18:46.:18:48.

authority. That therefore remains to be done by the Government in an

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exercise of well established prerogative powers. It is not as

:18:54.:18:57.

though Parliament has been short of opportunities to impose such

:18:58.:19:01.

restrictions if it wanted to. There has been legislation in 1978, 2002

:19:02.:19:12.

and 2008 and 2011 and 2015 where it could have done so and did not.

:19:13.:19:18.

Secondly, nowhere in the three acts that followed the Lisbon Treaty in

:19:19.:19:25.

2008, 2011 and 2015 is there any basis for inferring a restriction on

:19:26.:19:29.

the prerogative in relation to Article 50 to begin negotiations for

:19:30.:19:35.

withdrawal. On the contrary, we say close to the respective roles of

:19:36.:19:38.

government and legislature in this context has been given in each of

:19:39.:19:43.

these acts and the Government roll on Article 50 has been consciously

:19:44.:19:48.

served. That was some of the Government legal case.

:19:49.:19:49.

Our correspondent Rob Watson is at the Supreme Court now.

:19:50.:19:55.

Rob, we certainly heard outside the court earlier a fairly highly

:19:56.:19:59.

charged atmosphere and there is no doubt the Supreme Court is under the

:20:00.:20:03.

spotlight in every way. How do you assess it? It's interesting. If it

:20:04.:20:12.

was highly charged outside, inside, OJ Simpson it is not! It is pretty

:20:13.:20:18.

dry legal stuff. I hesitate to do this with all of those clever

:20:19.:20:21.

lawyers in there, but essentially we are at the point where the

:20:22.:20:25.

Government is making three points. Number one, when Parliament

:20:26.:20:29.

authorised the referendum, they didn't say that somehow they would

:20:30.:20:32.

have to come back to Parliament. They knew all along that it would be

:20:33.:20:35.

the Government that implemented the result of the referendum, which was

:20:36.:20:38.

clear, therefore the Government should just get on and do it. The

:20:39.:20:43.

second point being made by the Government is, look, if you go back

:20:44.:20:48.

a long time but also right up to modern times, prerogative, in other

:20:49.:20:51.

words the Government's ability to make foreign policy and treaties and

:20:52.:20:58.

unmake treaties is pretty clear, and that should apply now. And third,

:20:59.:21:02.

Parliament should not worry, it is still sovereign and will have a role

:21:03.:21:05.

in the unfolding of the Brexit process. Just not in triggering

:21:06.:21:13.

Article 50. Is that clear? Yes, end it now, tell them not to bother to

:21:14.:21:18.

sit for the rest of the week! On the other side, the critical issue that

:21:19.:21:21.

rights are embedded in the legislation that took us in and only

:21:22.:21:25.

Parliament can remove those rights. That is still holding for this case

:21:26.:21:31.

too, isn't it? That's certainly what is going to be put by the

:21:32.:21:35.

respondents, as they are known. They will repeat that, but the

:21:36.:21:39.

Government's lawyers are saying, hang on a minute, all that stuff is

:21:40.:21:44.

secondary, because the referendum made it clear, Parliament knew what

:21:45.:21:49.

it was doing when it passed the Bill authorising the referendum, and

:21:50.:21:52.

there was nothing in that bill saying, by the way, because the

:21:53.:21:56.

lights are going to be handed over, you need to come back to Parliament.

:21:57.:22:01.

We will hear later in the week from those saying no, hang on a minute,

:22:02.:22:05.

there are rights involved and therefore Parliament is sovereign.

:22:06.:22:13.

Thank you. Nadine Dorries, why shouldn't Parliament have a say? I

:22:14.:22:17.

think Parliament is going to have a say. Do you think that is right? I

:22:18.:22:24.

agree with the first point the Government is making in court, that

:22:25.:22:28.

we have the right to do this. This court case is almost academic,

:22:29.:22:32.

knowing that Labour are going to support Article 50 and vote for it.

:22:33.:22:37.

Of course they are going to, because if we don't, Paul Nuttall leading

:22:38.:22:40.

Ukip is going to take the charge into the labour heartlands in the

:22:41.:22:45.

north of England. Any Labour MP in the north, with the turnout and the

:22:46.:22:49.

vote they had to leave who would dare to vote against Article 50,

:22:50.:22:54.

given the resurgence we are about to see of Ukip, targeting those

:22:55.:22:58.

particular heartlands, would be a very brave and probably a very

:22:59.:23:02.

foolish MP. Given that Labour are going to support Article 50, this is

:23:03.:23:08.

almost academic. Parliament is going to vote it through anyway. Let Barry

:23:09.:23:14.

respond. Has Nadine Dorries summed it up correctly, that that is how

:23:15.:23:17.

Labour is going to react, and the reason why? What I find fascinating,

:23:18.:23:22.

Nadine seems to think this court case is about politics. It is not.

:23:23.:23:27.

This is a very important constitutional principle, which is

:23:28.:23:32.

simply this... Does the Prime Minister have the right to overturn

:23:33.:23:38.

a law passed by the sovereign Parliament, using the arbitrary

:23:39.:23:41.

power of the monarch? The High Court found that the Prime Minister did

:23:42.:23:45.

not have that right. They said the law created by Parliament can only

:23:46.:23:50.

be overturned by Parliament. That's A constitutional matter and actually

:23:51.:23:54.

it needs to be clarified irrespective of Brexit. Hang on...

:23:55.:24:02.

Two points to answer. You say it is academic, but do you agree that

:24:03.:24:08.

Parliament should have a say? No... You don't? This court case is being

:24:09.:24:15.

brought by a millionaire, Gina Miller, and 11 other millionaires.

:24:16.:24:19.

For every millionaire who has brought this court case, there are

:24:20.:24:23.

millions of Gerald Millers out there, who went into the booth in

:24:24.:24:27.

good faith and ticked the box to leave the European Union. They don't

:24:28.:24:31.

have millions of pounds to bring a court case and to argue a

:24:32.:24:35.

constitutional point. People are clear democratically about what they

:24:36.:24:40.

wanted, they won a democratic vote to leave the European Union and that

:24:41.:24:43.

is all that should matter. Is this just an attempt to frustrate them?

:24:44.:24:50.

This is absolutely spurious. The Labour Party, as Nadine well

:24:51.:24:54.

knows... Are you paying for that court case? Could you allow me the

:24:55.:25:00.

courtesy to reply to your extended diatribe? I and the whole of the

:25:01.:25:05.

Labour Party are very clear, our official position is clear, the vote

:25:06.:25:12.

took place, Remain lost the vote, we will leave the European Union. The

:25:13.:25:16.

debate in Parliament, the vote in Parliament must be about what the

:25:17.:25:21.

shape of leaving looks like, and there must be clarity on that. The

:25:22.:25:27.

Government is continually, and what Nadine is trying to do, is trying to

:25:28.:25:31.

confuse the issue, because the Government are confused and they

:25:32.:25:35.

have not decided what the shape of Leave looks like. If they have, they

:25:36.:25:39.

need to come to Parliament and say, this is what we propose to do. If

:25:40.:25:43.

that is consistent with all the things we were promised in the

:25:44.:25:46.

referendum, although we have heard from both Boris and... I can't

:25:47.:25:59.

remember. Liam Fox? David Davis? That's the one. Three of the things,

:26:00.:26:04.

they have now said, we may row back on paying money to the European

:26:05.:26:12.

Union... They haven't... There is a disagreement over whether or not

:26:13.:26:15.

having Paris free access to the single market might be worth paying

:26:16.:26:21.

for. -- tariff free access. Boris at the weekend... He just didn't rule

:26:22.:26:28.

anything out. Are you saying the Government has a clear and agreed

:26:29.:26:33.

strategy? Of course it dies. I would like to make the point that I do not

:26:34.:26:37.

expect Theresa made to put her cards on the table so that 27 member

:26:38.:26:44.

states... David Davis did not suggest it, he just didn't rule it

:26:45.:26:49.

out. But it is a red line for some people. Why didn't he rule it out?

:26:50.:26:55.

If it's a red line, and you believe it is, why didn't he rule it out?

:26:56.:27:02.

Some Tory MPs, Stuart Jackson said it would be a red line. Michael Gove

:27:03.:27:07.

stood in front of the five principles and said, these are the

:27:08.:27:12.

red lines. What people very clearly voted for was exiting the European

:27:13.:27:18.

Union, control of our borders come and access to the single market.

:27:19.:27:24.

That's what people voted for. It was very clear. When you say we don't

:27:25.:27:27.

know what Leave is going to look like... It's difficult not to talk

:27:28.:27:32.

over Nadine Muller because she never stops. -- Nadine because she never

:27:33.:27:40.

stops. People put their trust in the Government when they put their

:27:41.:27:47.

tick... The arguments were made very clearly during the referendum

:27:48.:27:50.

campaign, this is what it's going to look like. We will control our

:27:51.:27:54.

borders, control immigration and have access to the single market.

:27:55.:27:58.

People absolutely knew what they were voting for and that's what we

:27:59.:28:02.

are going to deliver. Jeremy Corbyn has said you are not going to vote

:28:03.:28:06.

against Article 50 being triggered under any circumstances. Does that

:28:07.:28:12.

mean you won't seek to amend the very short bill? Absolutely not. So

:28:13.:28:21.

you could delay...? Let him answer. We will have to see what bill the

:28:22.:28:25.

Government comes forward with, what shape it looks like. If it looks as

:28:26.:28:29.

though the Government is heading for a hard Brexit, which is not in the

:28:30.:28:35.

interests of British companies, workforce, it's going to take away

:28:36.:28:40.

jobs, reduce our economic benefits in this country... If those other

:28:41.:28:44.

things the Government is looking to do, we would look to amend that and

:28:45.:28:48.

there would be a vote in Parliament. What does that mean in practice? If

:28:49.:28:52.

you amended it, let's say because you wanted... It doesn't stop

:28:53.:28:59.

triggering Article 50. It would say Article 50 should be triggered on

:29:00.:29:03.

this basis rather than the basis of the Government has brought forward.

:29:04.:29:07.

That's why it is absolutely wrong of Nadine to continue to say that this

:29:08.:29:11.

is trying in some way to confound people who want to leave the

:29:12.:29:15.

European Union. I believe we should now leave the European Union,

:29:16.:29:18.

because that is what the public voted for, and that is also the

:29:19.:29:23.

official Labour Party position. But the Government, on that ballot

:29:24.:29:26.

paper, did not give people the right to determine what the shape of it

:29:27.:29:30.

would be, what it would look like when we came out. To take away jobs

:29:31.:29:36.

and reduce the economy... The Government was entrusted with the

:29:37.:29:38.

implementation of it, broadly speaking. Parliament was entrusted.

:29:39.:29:45.

Let's talk about the Lords. If they are difficult, as you stated let's

:29:46.:29:50.

say Labour votes for Article 50 to be triggered in the end of March

:29:51.:29:54.

timetable looks like it is being added to, what if there are problems

:29:55.:29:57.

in the Lord's? What should Theresa may do them? I don't like to high

:29:58.:30:07.

that he -- I don't like to hypothesise, if I were in the

:30:08.:30:12.

Lords... Everything changes on a daily basis. I think they are more

:30:13.:30:16.

worried about reform and the fact that if they go against a democratic

:30:17.:30:20.

decision of the British people, their position in the Lords would

:30:21.:30:26.

become even more tenuous in terms of their seats. They are not elected,

:30:27.:30:34.

of course. The former has failed by successive governments. If they

:30:35.:30:39.

choose to go against the will of the British people... Do you think the

:30:40.:30:44.

judges have strayed into political territory with this case? First in

:30:45.:30:47.

the High Court and now the Supreme Court? I go back to my substantive

:30:48.:30:53.

point. I don't believe this court case should be taking place, because

:30:54.:30:57.

I don't believe a group of millionaires... What about my

:30:58.:31:02.

question about judges? Do they have a right to rule on what is a legal

:31:03.:31:08.

case that has been put before them? Or are enemies of the people, as

:31:09.:31:14.

some of the press...? That's a very binary question which is quite

:31:15.:31:20.

extreme. We are where we are. These multimillionaires have challenged

:31:21.:31:22.

the British people and taken it to the courts, we have to abide by what

:31:23.:31:29.

the judges said. It is ironic that Nadine is talking about

:31:30.:31:31.

multimillionaires given that Ukip was backed by multi-millionaires...

:31:32.:31:35.

They are not challenging the decision. This court case, in the

:31:36.:31:42.

Supreme Court, is about a constitutional issue. It is

:31:43.:31:45.

politicians who have tried to politicise it, who put those

:31:46.:31:50.

articles into the press criticising, personally, the judges and trying to

:31:51.:31:55.

delve into their private lives. Is this the first time you have

:31:56.:31:59.

supported bankers, Barry, because they are paying for it? The judges

:32:00.:32:05.

have a job to do, which is a legal job about our Constitution. They

:32:06.:32:09.

should be allowed to get on with it without politicians trying to

:32:10.:32:12.

politicise it. We have a few more days of it to go.

:32:13.:32:17.

Louise Casey has been at the centre of government attempts to tackle

:32:18.:32:20.

some of the toughest social issues including inequality,

:32:21.:32:22.

worklessness and homelessness for more than a decade.

:32:23.:32:24.

Today she's published a long-awaited report into integration

:32:25.:32:26.

She says the authorities have sanctioned discrimination

:32:27.:32:31.

and harmful behaviour in the name of tolerance and multi-culturalism,

:32:32.:32:33.

while political leaders have been frightened to intervene for fear

:32:34.:32:36.

Ahead of the report's publication Louise Casey has

:32:37.:32:41.

been filming exclusively for the Daily Politics,

:32:42.:32:43.

For the past year, I've been travelling around the country coming

:32:44.:33:02.

to places just like this in south Manchester, talking to people,

:33:03.:33:04.

listening to people, about community cohesion and how

:33:05.:33:08.

we can look at integration in a different way, and particularly

:33:09.:33:11.

And what I've found is overall, as a population, we are becoming

:33:12.:33:21.

older, we are becoming less religious, we are becoming more

:33:22.:33:34.

liberal with a small L about things like gay rights

:33:35.:33:37.

And at the same time we are much more diverse than we used to be

:33:38.:33:41.

But the report that I'm releasing today shows that those in the Muslim

:33:42.:33:45.

communities are actually somewhat of an exception to that.

:33:46.:33:48.

On the whole, Muslim communities are younger,

:33:49.:33:49.

more devoutly religious and the fastest growing.

:33:50.:33:52.

And most worryingly, some women in those Muslim

:33:53.:33:55.

communities continue to suffer discrimination and outdated

:33:56.:33:58.

And in some northern towns like this, Muslim communities

:33:59.:34:14.

are becoming more concentrated, not less segregated.

:34:15.:34:19.

I was really struck by this street when I came to it.

:34:20.:34:22.

Down this side of the road there are five mosques,

:34:23.:34:24.

all built in incredibly close proximity to each other.

:34:25.:34:29.

On this side of the road you've still got a formerly

:34:30.:34:33.

Both communities living cheek by jowl, and sometimes that can

:34:34.:34:38.

I don't really blame either of the groups for that.

:34:39.:34:47.

It is entirely understandable and natural for people

:34:48.:34:49.

to want to live near others that are like themselves,

:34:50.:34:55.

but it is time for politicians, community leaders, public servants,

:34:56.:34:57.

religious leaders, to start to have honest conversations

:34:58.:35:01.

about the difficult issues that these raise.

:35:02.:35:06.

We can't expect with the high levels of immigration that we've been

:35:07.:35:08.

having for integration just to take care of itself.

:35:09.:35:12.

We've got to be better at managing that integration so that we live

:35:13.:35:15.

together as one community and not two.

:35:16.:35:22.

In one school I visited, the children in that school thought

:35:23.:35:27.

that up to 90% of the British population was Asian.

:35:28.:35:32.

That is simply no preparation for those children in terms

:35:33.:35:35.

of bringing them up in a Britain where eight out of ten

:35:36.:35:38.

And especially as they go out into a world where

:35:39.:35:44.

they still will face discrimination and disadvantage.

:35:45.:35:49.

So I'm worried about these kind of them-and-us divides,

:35:50.:35:52.

which is why I'm calling for today a bold new integration strategy,

:35:53.:35:59.

one that has significantly more English-language classes,

:36:00.:36:04.

more help for Muslim women and other women from ethnic minority groups,

:36:05.:36:11.

more mixing opportunities for all young people,

:36:12.:36:13.

no matter who they are, and greater expectations

:36:14.:36:16.

on all migrants that live here in the United Kingdom.

:36:17.:36:19.

In the current febrile atmosphere in this country,

:36:20.:36:28.

and to celebrate everything that is good about British

:36:29.:36:31.

diversity, we've got to focus much more and do much more on what brings

:36:32.:36:35.

us together as one community, one set of values, one

:36:36.:36:37.

set of institutions, and not focus on what

:36:38.:36:39.

And a failure to do so only leaves the ground open for on the one hand

:36:40.:36:48.

Islamist extremists and on the other the extreme far right.

:36:49.:36:54.

The report was commissioned by David Cameron, the former Prime Minister.

:36:55.:37:07.

How much support have you had from Theresa May? It was actually jointly

:37:08.:37:14.

commissioned. The report was going into David Cameron and Theresa May

:37:15.:37:17.

and now it will go into the new Prime Minister. She is as alive to

:37:18.:37:22.

these issues as David Cameron was. There have been reports that Number

:37:23.:37:27.

10 try to delay or block the publication. Any truth in that? I

:37:28.:37:30.

don't think so. Politics is politics. Over the summer, fairly

:37:31.:37:37.

rapid amount of change has happened in terms of political advisers and

:37:38.:37:40.

all of that, and basically I think they needed a few weeks to get their

:37:41.:37:45.

heads around a series of big issues, including the European referendum,

:37:46.:37:49.

amongst many other things. My report, I gave it to her the week

:37:50.:37:53.

before last and we are today, so in the scheme of things that is fine.

:37:54.:37:58.

And no, I haven't doctored it or watered it down. The report today, I

:37:59.:38:03.

am happy with it. It is my report, they are my words, I thought about

:38:04.:38:07.

what I wanted to put in and what I didn't want to put in and that is

:38:08.:38:10.

the report I have published this morning. For you have said the

:38:11.:38:14.

unsayable, being pretty direct in your observations and judgments, and

:38:15.:38:20.

observations from politicians across the political spectrum. Are you

:38:21.:38:24.

surprised by the reaction? No. I think when you say things that are

:38:25.:38:28.

difficult people find it difficult. I find them difficult to say, if

:38:29.:38:32.

truth be told. You don't always want to find problems and when you find

:38:33.:38:36.

problems and talk about them, they can be incredibly awkward. I think

:38:37.:38:42.

the report is very complicated. There are lots of things in it. If

:38:43.:38:46.

you just pick out a couple of things, you can make hay with them.

:38:47.:38:51.

It presents a picture that basically says the pace of immigration is too

:38:52.:38:56.

much in certain communities. It has been too quick, too difficult, too

:38:57.:39:01.

much change. Over the last ten years or so we haven't really been as an

:39:02.:39:04.

integration as I think we should be. I think that is a perfectly

:39:05.:39:09.

reasonable position for the British public to take. Do you accept that

:39:10.:39:14.

position? I think it is a courageous report. But do you accept that

:39:15.:39:18.

immigration has been too fast and furious for integration and there

:39:19.:39:22.

are problems to date as a result of immigration that perhaps started in

:39:23.:39:27.

Tony Blair. Louise said that in a particular way. She said in certain

:39:28.:39:31.

communities and I am glad you are nodding. That is really important.

:39:32.:39:38.

It is the impact it has made an certain communities that has just

:39:39.:39:41.

lacked any real thought on any real understanding both about the needs

:39:42.:39:46.

of the incoming community but also the community that was pre-existing.

:39:47.:39:51.

In my own area in North West London, in Wembley, in Brent, I am the first

:39:52.:39:55.

constituency with more people voting in a general election who were born

:39:56.:40:00.

outside the UK than born in it. Right, but some of the communities

:40:01.:40:03.

that Louise was talking about were not necessarily like Brent but I

:40:04.:40:06.

accept your point that it is a very diverse community. Reaction from

:40:07.:40:10.

Sayeeda Warsi, the former Tory Cabinet minister, saying it has

:40:11.:40:17.

focused too much on the Muslim community and the Muslim community

:40:18.:40:21.

in terms of women. You could talk about white working class

:40:22.:40:22.

communities as being marginalised and held back is yellow do you

:40:23.:40:28.

accept that? The shame is that she started tweeting before the report

:40:29.:40:34.

was published. Technically that is not the way I would have wanted the

:40:35.:40:37.

debate to start. If you read the whole report, let's be honest. I

:40:38.:40:42.

don't let anybody off the hook when it comes to qualities in that

:40:43.:40:46.

chapter. If one looks around the BBC, that is the starting point, and

:40:47.:40:50.

the civil service and other institutions, equality leaves a

:40:51.:40:54.

little to be desired. I don't suggest for a moment that we have

:40:55.:40:57.

left behind poor kids on white working class estates in this

:40:58.:41:03.

country. The fact that kids on free school meals are still doing badly

:41:04.:41:07.

in terms of attainment. And if you are young and black and between the

:41:08.:41:12.

ages of 18 and 25, you are 35% likely to be unemployed. All of

:41:13.:41:15.

those things are appalling. However, I don't want to write another report

:41:16.:41:19.

that says they are appalling and I will duck another issue that is

:41:20.:41:25.

called, as the country has become more diverse and London is a

:41:26.:41:29.

fantastic example of that, we do however have pockets of this country

:41:30.:41:33.

that without a doubt much more concentrated in terms of Pakistani

:41:34.:41:37.

heritage, Bangladeshi heritage and Muslim communities, which are from

:41:38.:41:42.

lots of different areas of the world but they define themselves as

:41:43.:41:45.

Muslim. I will put my cards on the table and my hands up. I am not

:41:46.:41:49.

going to duck and issue on your programme that says that within some

:41:50.:41:52.

of those communities I have seen male misogyny and patriarchy in ways

:41:53.:41:58.

that I just do not feel we should accept in this country. How can you

:41:59.:42:04.

change that within a community? The starting point is to talk about it

:42:05.:42:07.

and call it for what it is. Don't dance around it and say it is a

:42:08.:42:12.

because it is religion. It is not locate to say that if you are gay

:42:13.:42:16.

you should be beheaded or if you are woman you should walk 50 steps

:42:17.:42:20.

behind somebody else. -- it is not locate. OK. For one person it is

:42:21.:42:30.

arranged marriage and for another it is forced marriage. I hope you find

:42:31.:42:37.

me a husband or a wife turns into your community forcing you down a

:42:38.:42:41.

route. We have got to have those discussions. You cannot tell people

:42:42.:42:44.

where to live and who to be friends with. You cannot tell them which

:42:45.:42:49.

school to go to, so how do you break up communities which want to live

:42:50.:42:54.

together and be segregated? Nobody wants to break up communities. How

:42:55.:42:58.

do you stop segregation happening? The fundamental problem here is that

:42:59.:43:02.

some of these community is began to establish a long time ago, in the

:43:03.:43:07.

late 1950s. And they have increased since. But as a society we have

:43:08.:43:12.

changed and we are much more liberal. We are in a society where

:43:13.:43:15.

gay marriage is enshrined in law. And we have progressed quite a lot

:43:16.:43:21.

over the last 50 or 60 years. And left behind large swathes of people?

:43:22.:43:26.

We have not just left them behind. We have diverged. It is enshrined in

:43:27.:43:32.

their religion and culture. Many of those communities, we can talk about

:43:33.:43:35.

it and try and educate and particularly educate women, I think,

:43:36.:43:38.

but many other people within those communities would find it offensive

:43:39.:43:43.

and fundamentally against everything they believe in in terms of the

:43:44.:43:47.

patriarch and the misogyny, because it is part of who they are. Let

:43:48.:43:55.

Louise come in. I am not saying that is how it should be. Is Lembit Opik

:43:56.:44:05.

is full religion. Islam is a religion that can be interpreted in

:44:06.:44:12.

a myriad of different ways. -- Islam is a peaceful religion. There are

:44:13.:44:16.

plenty of Muslims living the life that I live, still practising their

:44:17.:44:20.

religion in their own way. I have no problem with that and nobody should

:44:21.:44:24.

have a problem with that. My problem isn't educating women. It is

:44:25.:44:29.

educating men. It is actually speaking to the Imams, the so-called

:44:30.:44:33.

community leaders, standing beside teachers in schools who are day in

:44:34.:44:37.

and day out in some of these high concentration areas having to walk

:44:38.:44:42.

the tightrope between can somebody go on a theatre trip? Can somebody

:44:43.:44:47.

play music? All of those things. We are not standing behind them are

:44:48.:44:51.

saying, yes, of course you can, and we are not getting that message out

:44:52.:44:57.

to so many people in the Muslim community who are on the other hand

:44:58.:45:00.

pulling in the opposite direction. The sense of it being a leftover of

:45:01.:45:03.

the last 50 years and eventually they will integrate is not what I

:45:04.:45:08.

have seen. My problem is that there are some people who are friendly

:45:09.:45:11.

more British than I am, their heritage is longer living in this

:45:12.:45:18.

country than my own family, yet frankly in some circumstances they

:45:19.:45:21.

have more regressive views towards women and other people than perhaps

:45:22.:45:32.

those that came from Pakistan for 40 years ago with that type of

:45:33.:45:35.

attitude. Do you think little greatness has been a barrier in

:45:36.:45:41.

terms of talking about these issues? -- political correctness. I am

:45:42.:45:45.

talking about the rather issue. Many of the perpetrators grooming young

:45:46.:45:49.

girls were men of Pakistani origin. It was accused of political

:45:50.:45:54.

correctness at the time. Without a doubt, sometimes it is incredibly

:45:55.:46:00.

well-intentioned people, they think they can't speak out loud about this

:46:01.:46:05.

and it will be terribly awkward. We want to embrace differences in terms

:46:06.:46:08.

of culture, religions and behaviours. My problem is that

:46:09.:46:12.

sometimes we have gone too far. The worst aspect of that is when you

:46:13.:46:16.

wake up one day and you realise that the social work or police officer is

:46:17.:46:20.

ignoring something deliberately, to texting out the word Pakistani from

:46:21.:46:27.

a children's care file. You realise that the care has gone so far on the

:46:28.:46:30.

other direction that actually they are doing wrong. It is all sorts of

:46:31.:46:41.

smaller examples. My most important cry is that this should be talked

:46:42.:46:44.

about and debated fairly and properly and that every local

:46:45.:46:48.

authority in a country can start the bracing the issues. Do you think the

:46:49.:46:52.

government will take action on this? Yes, they will have to.

:46:53.:46:56.

Now, last week gave us plenty of disagreement over Brexit,

:46:57.:46:59.

another new leader for Ukip and a surprise by-election

:47:00.:47:01.

On Monday, the Liberal Democrat Sarah Olney,

:47:02.:47:08.

fresh from overturning Zac Goldsmith's 23,000

:47:09.:47:10.

majority in last week's Richmond Park by-election,

:47:11.:47:12.

takes her place in the House of Commons.

:47:13.:47:15.

On Tuesday, the main debate in the Commons is the Health Service

:47:16.:47:17.

Medical Supplies Bill, where Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt

:47:18.:47:22.

aims to reduce the ?15.2 billion the NHS in England

:47:23.:47:25.

On Wednesday, the leader of the Commons David Lidington

:47:26.:47:30.

stands in for Theresa May at Prime Minister's Questions

:47:31.:47:32.

The PM herself is away on a foreign trip.

:47:33.:47:37.

We don't yet know who will be speaking for Labour.

:47:38.:47:40.

If you're a fan of by-elections, your luck's in.

:47:41.:47:43.

There's another this Thursday, when voters in Sleaford

:47:44.:47:45.

and North Hykeham choose a new MP after Conservative Stephen Phillips

:47:46.:47:49.

And on Friday, we'll get the political result

:47:50.:47:56.

Yes, can Jeremy Corbyn win Parliamentary Beard of the Year

:47:57.:48:01.

Now, to discuss all of that, although not the bit

:48:02.:48:09.

about the beards, we're joined by Stephen Bush

:48:10.:48:11.

from the New Statesman and Alison Little from The Express.

:48:12.:48:14.

Wrapped up warm, I see. Allison, different types of Brexit. Are

:48:15.:48:26.

beginning to emerge? Are the Cabinet split is very reel over where to go

:48:27.:48:35.

with Brexit? I think they are very real, how much they matter at the

:48:36.:48:39.

moment is a moot point. Theresa may says we are not going to give a

:48:40.:48:45.

running commentary. Ministers are not going to be able to roll things

:48:46.:48:48.

out, that is why David Davis got into a situation last week. --

:48:49.:48:55.

ruling label things out. Paying for access to a single market, he said,

:48:56.:49:00.

well, there is a possibility. Boris Johnson insisted yesterday that it

:49:01.:49:06.

is a clear picture of what we want for Brexit. I don't know if it is,

:49:07.:49:10.

but it gives us something to write about. That is always important.

:49:11.:49:16.

Some of the papers were writing at the weekend that David Davis is

:49:17.:49:20.

being allowed to state an opinion, particularly when he didn't rule out

:49:21.:49:24.

contributions to the EU for preferential access to the single

:49:25.:49:28.

market. Others, like Liam Fox and Boris, are not being given the same

:49:29.:49:33.

sort of freedom to speak their mind. There is definitely a scepticism

:49:34.:49:38.

about Liam Fox among senior people. Clearly a concerted effort from some

:49:39.:49:44.

quarters to get Boris, as it were. Whether that is anything more than

:49:45.:49:47.

jockeying for power within the Conservative Party is a more open

:49:48.:49:52.

question. Alison, do you think the Government is heading for a harder

:49:53.:49:58.

or softer Brexit? A grey Brexit, whatever we are talking about now. I

:49:59.:50:03.

don't know. I really don't. The signals from Boris Johnson is that

:50:04.:50:07.

we are going to be out of the single market and the customs union, but it

:50:08.:50:11.

is a one-time thing, nobody has done it before, so we will have our own

:50:12.:50:15.

deal. The David Davis point is interesting. I spoke to an MP who

:50:16.:50:20.

thought he should have been better prepared for the question, it was a

:50:21.:50:24.

convoluted answer. He hasn't been on the front bench for a very long

:50:25.:50:29.

time. For him and Boris and Liam Fox, partly it is that they are not

:50:30.:50:32.

used to the day-to-day demands of the House of Commons any more. That

:50:33.:50:37.

is sometimes an issue, so they can set hares running when perhaps they

:50:38.:50:43.

don't mean to. On immigration, there seems to be some disagreement on

:50:44.:50:46.

whether the numbers should come down, or whether it should be a

:50:47.:50:49.

reasonable and managed immigration or not. Which is it, Labour Party

:50:50.:50:57.

policy? To be honest, if you ask three different members of the

:50:58.:51:00.

Labour front bench, you would get six different answers. If you ask a

:51:01.:51:04.

backbencher, you would get another four. They are badly split on the

:51:05.:51:09.

issue. Half of their seats have people who don't like the EU and

:51:10.:51:14.

immigration, the other half like the EU and immigration. It's not clear

:51:15.:51:19.

who will win the tussle. Diane Abbott is hugely influential on

:51:20.:51:22.

Jeremy Corbyn's thinking, she thinks you have to stay in the civil market

:51:23.:51:27.

and accept free movement. Keir Starmer is not in a seat but is

:51:28.:51:30.

under threat from the potential surge from Ukip. He is trying to

:51:31.:51:36.

speak to those concerns, a middle path. And people like Clive Lewis

:51:37.:51:41.

suggesting that maybe only members of the trade union... It is a bit of

:51:42.:51:46.

a mess, in truth. I will leave you two to pursue the varying shades of

:51:47.:51:49.

Brexit and immigration. Thank you. Has this been an unusually rude year

:51:50.:51:52.

in politics both here and abroad? Well, not on the Daily Politics,

:51:53.:51:55.

where we're just as rude But that's the view of the columnist

:51:56.:51:58.

and former MP Matthew Parris, who may just occasionally have been

:51:59.:52:02.

guilty of the odd In his very own tribute

:52:03.:52:04.

to Top of the Pops, here's Matthew with the worst -

:52:05.:52:13.

or should that be best? - Hello there, rude boys.

:52:14.:52:16.

I'm Matthew Parris. And what a year it's been

:52:17.:52:21.

for political upsets, And because it's been an annus

:52:22.:52:24.

in which politicians have been especially horribili to each other,

:52:25.:52:30.

here's my Daily Politics top five The EU referendum dominated

:52:31.:52:34.

the first half of the year, and tempers were fraying,

:52:35.:52:44.

not least in the debates Who could forget Amber Rudd's

:52:45.:52:47.

take-down of Boris Johnson? He's the life and soul of the party,

:52:48.:52:52.

but he's not the man you want driving you home

:52:53.:52:56.

at the end of the evening. For some reason, Michael Gove stung

:52:57.:53:01.

people into some rather graphic language among users

:53:02.:53:04.

of that bastion of common sense and moderation,

:53:05.:53:06.

Twitter. @pulpketchup described the former

:53:07.:53:11.

Chief Whip and Education Secretary While @invaderXan was even crueller,

:53:12.:53:15.

describing him as a reprehensible Then, for a short while,

:53:16.:53:21.

all Conservatives seemed One Tory MP was quoted

:53:22.:53:29.

anonymously saying... Although that was all rather vanilla

:53:30.:53:40.

compared with what was happening Her obituary in the Richmond

:53:41.:53:46.

Times dispatch said... One man who saw Donald Trump with

:53:47.:54:06.

more enthusiasm was Nigel Farage, who's finally bowed out of the UK

:54:07.:54:12.

leadership with this endorsement from journalist Camilla Long

:54:13.:54:15.

ringing in his ears... So, 2016 has been catty, sometimes

:54:16.:54:26.

witty, but often downright brutal. Next year, if I promise to be a bit

:54:27.:54:32.

nicer, can't we all? And Matthew Parris, who's just

:54:33.:54:43.

published his book called Scorn, about history's worst insults,

:54:44.:54:46.

just in time for Christmas, has left the Top of the Pops

:54:47.:54:48.

studio and joins us now. I don't know if they were your

:54:49.:54:58.

personal dancers. We couldn't think of a rude enough introduction that

:54:59.:55:01.

would be acceptable on daytime telly. Plenty, but none of them are

:55:02.:55:08.

repeatable. Has it been a vintage year for political scorn? I'm not

:55:09.:55:13.

sure of the word vintage in terms of quality. In terms of quantity, a

:55:14.:55:18.

huge amount. A lot of it pretty brutal. More the sledgehammer than

:55:19.:55:24.

the stiletto, and I regret that. Oh, you do? I like the stiletto! The top

:55:25.:55:31.

five were pretty scathing, particularly for poor old Michael

:55:32.:55:36.

Gove. What brought out such vitriol? He said something mild, like I want

:55:37.:55:41.

to stay friends with the EU, I think people were just cross with him. His

:55:42.:55:45.

erstwhile friend Boris Johnson has not fared so well. I don't think

:55:46.:55:54.

they are friends! I did say erstwhile! The journalist Marina

:55:55.:55:57.

Hyde described Michael Gove as having faced a tragic conflict of

:55:58.:56:02.

disloyalty. Everybody had their own version of that. What do you think

:56:03.:56:06.

relations are like around the Cabinet table, when you think of

:56:07.:56:10.

Amber Rudd, Boris Johnson that collision during one of the debates?

:56:11.:56:15.

How does that work out? I think it works out as it would in our own

:56:16.:56:20.

lives. When people have had a huge row and really insulted each other

:56:21.:56:23.

in the most personal terms, it is hard to imagine they are never

:56:24.:56:27.

completely friends again. But of course they have to have ways of

:56:28.:56:32.

working. You yourself were not exactly flattering about Boris

:56:33.:56:35.

Johnson. Lacklustre, cynical, vacuous? Yes, I had a bit of a go at

:56:36.:56:42.

Boris Johnson some time ago. You did. And what triggered that? I was

:56:43.:56:48.

invited to the Foreign Office Christmas party, but I am terrified

:56:49.:56:52.

of bumping into him on a social occasion, because he has never been

:56:53.:56:56.

anything but pleasant to me. There you go! You are not exactly shy in

:56:57.:56:59.

coming forward with political insults? No. You are in the book!

:57:00.:57:11.

The Sox! Remind us. It was Tim Montgomery. He told me very quickly

:57:12.:57:17.

what it meant, so I deleted the tweet very quickly. I am pretty

:57:18.:57:23.

naive, to be honest. She says! I'm afraid I don't believe a word. I

:57:24.:57:31.

have been accused of starting this posh boy 's comment about David

:57:32.:57:34.

Cameron and George Osborne. It was on this programme, I think. You

:57:35.:57:39.

first aired the comment. It went viral. Since then, people have been

:57:40.:57:44.

not quite as afraid to say what they really wanted. Matthew knows as well

:57:45.:57:48.

as I do that there is no such thing as a friend in politics. If you want

:57:49.:57:53.

a friend, get a dog! You said you are not rude to people, but are you,

:57:54.:57:58.

Barry? Would you like to be rude to Nadine? He has been today already! I

:57:59.:58:05.

think the worst thing I have ever said about anyone was the last

:58:06.:58:09.

Chancellor. I used the phrase that he showed all the economic foresight

:58:10.:58:19.

of a myopic fruit bat. That is very mild! Tony Banks described Mrs

:58:20.:58:23.

Thatcher as Baha'i thing like a six starved boa constrictor! -- behaving

:58:24.:58:26.

like. There's just time before we go

:58:27.:58:28.

to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was: According

:58:29.:58:31.

to reports in the press, what name is the Government

:58:32.:58:33.

trying to stop ministers It was Boris. He should be called

:58:34.:58:44.

Foreign Secretary, because everyone always is and always has him, so he

:58:45.:58:48.

deserves the respect of the position. -- has been.

:58:49.:58:52.

That's all for today. Thanks to our guests.

:58:53.:58:57.

Jo Coburn is joined by Conservative MP Nadine Dorries and Labour's Barry Gardiner to analyse the implications of Italy's referendum and to look ahead to the Supreme Court hearing on triggering Article 50.

Dame Louise Casey discusses her new report on integration in the UK, and Matthew Parris provides a run-down of the best and worst political insults of 2016.


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