12/12/2016 Daily Politics


12/12/2016

Jo Coburn is joined by former culture minister Ed Vaizey and Labour's Jess Phillips for the latest news from Westminster including the debate over funding for social care.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 12/12/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

This is BBC News - and these are the top stories

:00:00.:00:35.

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:36.:00:38.

A cross-party group calls on the government to guarantee that

:00:39.:00:41.

EU citizens living in the UK can stay after Brexit.

:00:42.:00:45.

Leading Leave campaigner Gisela Stuart tells us why.

:00:46.:00:49.

Theresa May is under pressure to sanction a rise in council tax

:00:50.:00:52.

in England to boost spending on social care for the elderly.

:00:53.:00:57.

Is the food served in prisons causing riots?

:00:58.:01:00.

We'll hear from the campaigner who wants a nutritious overhaul

:01:01.:01:02.

And we go behind-the-scenes in parliament to discover

:01:03.:01:08.

the history of Hansard, the official publication

:01:09.:01:09.

which captures every word spoken in the Commons and the Lords.

:01:10.:01:22.

And with us for the whole of the programme today, the former

:01:23.:01:26.

Conservative culture minister Ed Vaizey,

:01:27.:01:28.

But first, let's take a look at a couple

:01:29.:01:36.

of political warnings issued yesterday on the Sunday Politics.

:01:37.:01:39.

First up, Ken Livingstone, who was asked by Andrew

:01:40.:01:41.

By what time do you start to get worried if the polls haven't

:01:42.:01:49.

Oh, I mean, I think they will turn around...

:01:50.:01:53.

But generally when do you start to get worried if they haven't?

:01:54.:01:56.

If in a year's time it was still as bad as this,

:01:57.:01:59.

I don't think it will be because Jeremy and his team

:02:00.:02:03.

are going to focus on the economy and that's what wins every election.

:02:04.:02:06.

Remember, Bill Clinton - "It's the economy, stupid."

:02:07.:02:08.

Ken Clarke also appeared on the Sunday Politics yesterday.

:02:09.:02:15.

Here he is being asked about Theresa May's future,

:02:16.:02:17.

should she decide to pursue what he calls a "hard Brexit".

:02:18.:02:22.

You seem to be quoted in the Mail on Sunday this morning as saying

:02:23.:02:25.

that if the Prime Minister's sides too much with the hard Brexit

:02:26.:02:28.

It is because I think only a minority of the House of Commons

:02:29.:02:36.

think it's all frightfully simple and you can just leave.

:02:37.:02:39.

She will be in a minority if she started adopting the views

:02:40.:02:42.

of John Redwood or Iain Duncan Smith.

:02:43.:02:44.

It's quite clear that a majority of the House of Commons does not

:02:45.:02:48.

agree with that and actually it would be pretty catastrophic

:02:49.:02:51.

We turn up and face 27 other nation states and the biggest free

:02:52.:02:58.

market in the world, and tell them we are

:02:59.:03:01.

Ed Vaizey, is Ken Clarke ride, Theresa May could be brought down if

:03:02.:03:13.

she sides with Eurosceptic head-bangers in her party? No, it's

:03:14.:03:17.

not right, first of all, I don't think she will be brought down.

:03:18.:03:21.

She's in an unassailable position, very popular with MPs and incredibly

:03:22.:03:26.

popular in the country, not just with voters. My question is, if she

:03:27.:03:33.

sides with Eurosceptic MPs. If she goes for a hard Brexit? I don't

:03:34.:03:36.

think she will but I can dodge the question this way. I don't think she

:03:37.:03:43.

will go from hard Brexit. That's my next question. You don't think she

:03:44.:03:45.

will take the UK out of the single market? You are asking me, almost

:03:46.:03:51.

inviting me to dodge the question. It quite clear, coming out of a

:03:52.:03:58.

customs union is not a hard Brexit for the you can't leave the EU

:03:59.:04:01.

without leaving those two elements because you need to control

:04:02.:04:04.

immigration and have your own free trade treaties. What do you think is

:04:05.:04:10.

a hard Brexit then? These terms are unhelpful for supper hard Brexit

:04:11.:04:14.

would be by and large an ideological exit from the European Union which

:04:15.:04:17.

didn't take into account of the important factors such as the one

:04:18.:04:20.

they going to discuss later about the right of EU nationals living in

:04:21.:04:25.

the UK, so I would like to see... If you want me to move closer perhaps

:04:26.:04:32.

to Ken's position, I would urge the Prime Minister to change some of the

:04:33.:04:36.

rhetoric falls I'd like to see her reaching out to the remain as

:04:37.:04:39.

because there's nothing wrong having voted remain, believing the backdrop

:04:40.:04:43.

in the European Union and raising your concerns about what the future

:04:44.:04:49.

holds. On that issue of tone and reaching out, let's talk about

:04:50.:04:55.

trouser gate. In a sartorial failure to reach out across the divide from

:04:56.:05:02.

the Education Secretary, for her ?995 pair of brown leather trousers,

:05:03.:05:07.

bitter chocolate they were described as in one of the papers. Nicky

:05:08.:05:11.

Morgan was then banned from the meeting due to attend at number ten.

:05:12.:05:16.

Do you think that was the right response? I was surprised to see

:05:17.:05:21.

that appear in the newspapers. I don't know if they were crumbs from

:05:22.:05:25.

the Russian intelligence service at the moment which is hacking... These

:05:26.:05:28.

were texts Chief of staff. Fiona Hill, I don't

:05:29.:05:36.

want to get into the row between them. Was it appropriate for those

:05:37.:05:42.

texts to be sent so Nicky Morgan was banned? People send text messages to

:05:43.:05:48.

each other all the time. People in number ten, senior figures

:05:49.:05:52.

particularly, do it with an element of authority and adapted them to

:05:53.:05:55.

make a judgment on whether people should not be included in meetings.

:05:56.:06:01.

It's a very unfortunate dispute. I wish it had not happened. I admire

:06:02.:06:05.

Nicky Morgan for standing up for what she believes in but, in this

:06:06.:06:12.

case, it's a dangerous way to go. Fiona Hill speaks for the Prime

:06:13.:06:15.

Minister when she issued a text saying don't bring Nicky Morgan to

:06:16.:06:19.

number ten again, is that the right thing? I don't know whether the

:06:20.:06:22.

Prime Minister was going to be at the meeting. She has a lot of huge

:06:23.:06:27.

things to deal with. Do you think she has actioned it? I don't know, I

:06:28.:06:33.

doubt it very much. Fiona Hill, chief of staff, she's entitled to

:06:34.:06:36.

make a position clear about who should be at an internal meeting in

:06:37.:06:40.

number ten and unfortunately it's gone into this position where we are

:06:41.:06:44.

playing effectively with personal politics and moving away from the

:06:45.:06:46.

issues which are incredibly important and need to be discussed

:06:47.:06:49.

for the let's talk to Jess Phillips about Jeremy Corbyn. Not trousers.

:06:50.:06:57.

We've had enough of trousers and handbags. The party has sunk to 25%

:06:58.:07:04.

of the support in a survey three days ago. Its worst showing since

:07:05.:07:10.

1983. It lost the Richmond by-election. Ken Livingstone said

:07:11.:07:14.

yesterday, if it's as bad as this in a year's time we would be worried.

:07:15.:07:18.

Are you worried now? Do you agree with him? I agree with the

:07:19.:07:23.

substantive point that if we are in this position in a year's time,

:07:24.:07:27.

yeah, it's going to have to look at what we're going to do about that.

:07:28.:07:33.

I'm worried already. We need a good run in the election. It's not that

:07:34.:07:40.

far-away. I think that the Labour Party needs a good shake after the

:07:41.:07:43.

two by-elections. We shouldn't read too much into by-elections which are

:07:44.:07:48.

won or lost by the favourite party in the area because they are the

:07:49.:07:51.

usual things, but, yeah, we need to be worrying. What would you do? The

:07:52.:07:58.

Labour Party needs to have a much clearer position on certain things

:07:59.:08:01.

and we need to act together. That's the truthful top is Brexit, having a

:08:02.:08:07.

clear position on that because on the doorstep anecdotally the message

:08:08.:08:11.

seemed to be that people didn't know what Labour position actually was

:08:12.:08:15.

regarding Brexit? Both of those by-elections, it became a further

:08:16.:08:22.

referendum on Brexit with a 1-1 draw in both cases. In those particular

:08:23.:08:27.

elections, I think in a general election, post-Article 50, hard

:08:28.:08:32.

Brexit, whatever happens, the Brexit message won't necessarily be the

:08:33.:08:35.

only thing you have to be clear on but the Labour Party is in a

:08:36.:08:40.

difficult position where we have MPs in very heavily remain areas and

:08:41.:08:44.

very heavy lead areas. Would you give it a year or do you think

:08:45.:08:50.

something needs to be done sooner? I think you need to give it here

:08:51.:08:54.

because I'm sick of the Labour Party talking about itself I'm interested

:08:55.:08:56.

in talking to people behind the doors. Diane Abbott said the poll

:08:57.:09:00.

gap with the Tories would be closed by next year. Do you believe that,

:09:01.:09:08.

17 points? If you have asked me where we would be in world politics

:09:09.:09:11.

18 months ago, I wouldn't about a clue. It difficult for me to say

:09:12.:09:16.

what will happen in a year's time. At the moment, we seem on a similar

:09:17.:09:21.

trajectory for quite some time and we need a kick up the bum to sort it

:09:22.:09:26.

out. All right. On point, we will move on the.

:09:27.:09:27.

Now it's time for our daily quiz, which is all about the fraught issue

:09:28.:09:31.

I'm sure my two guests of all body sent to their hundreds. -- already

:09:32.:09:40.

sent their hundreds. And the question for today is,

:09:41.:09:42.

which of these cards is not At the end of the show,

:09:43.:09:45.

we'll see if Ed and Jess can give Now, over the coming days

:09:46.:09:56.

on the Daily Politics we're going to be taking a look

:09:57.:10:00.

at the issues faced by key government departments

:10:01.:10:02.

in the run-up to Brexit. For today's Brexit Tracker,

:10:03.:10:04.

we're looking at the challenges faced by Home Secretary Amber Rudd,

:10:05.:10:06.

whose brief covers the contentious issues of immigration

:10:07.:10:09.

and border control. So what exactly is in

:10:10.:10:10.

her Brexit in-tray? Politicians and their civil servants

:10:11.:10:14.

in the Home Office have plenty to wrestle with as we move

:10:15.:10:17.

into a post-Brexit world - and not just the potentially

:10:18.:10:20.

implementing new restrictions on EU immigration, though that will be

:10:21.:10:24.

taking up plenty of their time. They have to weigh up

:10:25.:10:28.

whether to try to remain part of the European Arrest Warrant

:10:29.:10:31.

scheme, which returns Theresa May supported it

:10:32.:10:34.

when Home Secretary but civil servants will now be exploring

:10:35.:10:39.

whether bilateral deals can be as effective or, indeed,

:10:40.:10:42.

whether it's necessary at all. A decision on Europol

:10:43.:10:47.

is coming even quicker, with Britain needing to decide

:10:48.:10:51.

in the coming months if it wants to sign up to new rules expanding

:10:52.:10:54.

the European law enforcement agency's powers to fight terrorism

:10:55.:10:57.

or opt out and potentially lose access to databases

:10:58.:11:01.

of European criminals. The department will also be

:11:02.:11:06.

grappling with what to do about the Northern Ireland border,

:11:07.:11:08.

whether the UK can continue in the common travel area,

:11:09.:11:11.

which allows free movement between the mainland and Ireland,

:11:12.:11:15.

or whether a hard border will be required to prevent EU nationals

:11:16.:11:19.

gaining unregistered The EU will introduce tighter data

:11:20.:11:22.

protection measures in 2018, despite the UK arguing

:11:23.:11:30.

against it during negotiations. The Home Office takes responsibility

:11:31.:11:34.

for data protection. Will it need to seek equivalence

:11:35.:11:37.

with EU standards to continue access to the digital single market,

:11:38.:11:41.

or will it now take the opportunity to seek a looser set

:11:42.:11:45.

of regulations outside? One area where work is progressing

:11:46.:11:50.

apace is on changing our passports. A campaign to remove the words

:11:51.:11:55.

"European Union" and return to the blue colour of old received

:11:56.:11:58.

a filip after minister Robert Goodwill announced

:11:59.:12:01.

the Government was now considering potential changes

:12:02.:12:04.

to the UK passport in September. These are just some of the issues

:12:05.:12:09.

Home Secretary Amber Rudd and her team have on their plates

:12:10.:12:12.

as the Government moves ever closer to triggering Article 50 and firing

:12:13.:12:16.

the starting gun on our exit And to discuss all of that we've

:12:17.:12:19.

been joined by the Labour MP Gisela Stuart, who led

:12:20.:12:29.

the Vote Leave referendum campaign. She's now working with

:12:30.:12:32.

the cross-party thinktank British Future, which today

:12:33.:12:34.

delivered a letter to Downing Street demanding the Government guarantee

:12:35.:12:36.

the right to remain in the UK to EU Welcome to Daily Politics. You said

:12:37.:12:50.

you want the government to grant 1.8 million EU citizens right to remain

:12:51.:12:54.

in the UK before Article 50 was triggered and you want the

:12:55.:12:58.

government do that with no guarantee that European member states will

:12:59.:13:02.

reciprocate and protect the rights of UK nationals living elsewhere in

:13:03.:13:05.

the EU. Is that a smart negotiating strategy? 2.8 million EU citizens

:13:06.:13:12.

live in the UK and 1.8 of those already have acquired the rights

:13:13.:13:17.

necessary to have permanently to remain but we are suggesting that

:13:18.:13:20.

for the remaining ones, including those who have a customs made permit

:13:21.:13:26.

to leave to remain which is fast tracked, capped in terms of cost of

:13:27.:13:32.

first passport and a date for qualifying for that is when you

:13:33.:13:37.

trigger Article 50. Is it smart negotiating? On negotiations, your

:13:38.:13:41.

facts, the facts are the legal rights which EU citizens got which a

:13:42.:13:48.

lot of UK citizens have already got in France and Spain have to be

:13:49.:13:52.

respected. You also set the tone of the negotiations and I think it's

:13:53.:13:56.

important from my point of view that Theresa May goes in there and says

:13:57.:14:01.

we're outward looking, welcoming country, and we make the first move

:14:02.:14:06.

and expect from you to make the same thing. You expect some sort of

:14:07.:14:09.

reciprocal arrangement and response but is it a risk worth taking

:14:10.:14:13.

because it is a risk, isn't it, that they don't reciprocate like the

:14:14.:14:20.

like? Given, from what I understand, the intervention Angela Merkel, a

:14:21.:14:23.

lot of EU member states have already started to argue for that, but they

:14:24.:14:26.

are hoping that this council meeting at the weekend and reach an

:14:27.:14:31.

agreement, so it's a bit like the British future report which brought

:14:32.:14:34.

together levers and remain as from all but the parties and the trade

:14:35.:14:39.

unions and insert it directors. I think we can actually make that

:14:40.:14:42.

consensus but someone has to start and when it comes to people I think

:14:43.:14:46.

it should be as. You obviously see it as a bridge in that sense to

:14:47.:14:50.

perhaps set the tone for opening negotiations but why don't we just

:14:51.:14:54.

wait until Article 50 is triggered? It's not long now until formal

:14:55.:14:57.

negotiations start and perhaps the tone should be more businesslike?

:14:58.:15:02.

In the run-up to the triggering, I want the Home Office to streamline

:15:03.:15:07.

some of its mechanisms, actually be ready for that. Do you agree? I

:15:08.:15:23.

would rather we went to this position. I represent a constituency

:15:24.:15:29.

that has a lot of scientific research. I can't emphasise enough

:15:30.:15:32.

the amount of insecurity that has been engendered by the Leave vote.

:15:33.:15:38.

Having said that, I understand the Prime Minister but opposition, which

:15:39.:15:41.

is to say, you can't make a concession without a concession from

:15:42.:15:46.

the other side and I think if we followed diesel's policy, tempted

:15:47.:15:49.

though I am, we've already seen the increase that has happened in the

:15:50.:15:52.

last few months. -- Gisela Stuart's policy. You are effectively saying,

:15:53.:15:59.

if you come over now, you can get permission to stay in the UK. I

:16:00.:16:04.

think an eye for an eye made the whole world blind and somebody needs

:16:05.:16:07.

to step up to the plate. We're not talking about numbers, we are

:16:08.:16:14.

talking about the boys and my son's class and his mum and dad and what

:16:15.:16:17.

it means to them. We cannot use people as bargaining chips and from

:16:18.:16:21.

what I've heard, when the Polish by Melissa came here and from what I've

:16:22.:16:24.

heard of other European leaders, where lots of their people live

:16:25.:16:27.

here, they are desperate to hear this from the UK. -- Polish Prime

:16:28.:16:34.

Minister. The longer we treat people as a bargaining chip, the more shame

:16:35.:16:38.

is brought our country. Let's move on to the Home Office in trade. The

:16:39.:16:44.

European arrest warrant featured strongly in the campaign. Police

:16:45.:16:46.

chiefs say it speed up extraditions but it does mean foreign countries

:16:47.:16:50.

can extradite British citizens. Is that difficult to square with taking

:16:51.:16:55.

back control? We need to negotiate a strong extradition protocol, as we

:16:56.:17:00.

have with the United States and Canada. Is about strong? People have

:17:01.:17:03.

criticised the one that's been done with the United States. The European

:17:04.:17:09.

arrest warrant had its problems because it allowed for people being

:17:10.:17:12.

extradited from the United Kingdom for crimes which were not crimes in

:17:13.:17:15.

the UK. That wasn't very happy state. How many people are we

:17:16.:17:21.

talking about? I think one is too much. The principle of the entire

:17:22.:17:25.

Home Office in trade... They have to have some principles on which they

:17:26.:17:29.

approach this and I think the first principle has to be, just because it

:17:30.:17:32.

has the word Europe and it does not mean it is bound to the ECJ and the

:17:33.:17:39.

jurisdiction of that court and that is how you peel things. That's what

:17:40.:17:42.

needs to be looked at because we're not going to be under the

:17:43.:17:46.

jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice so anything that flows

:17:47.:17:49.

from that, we won't be part of. In 2014 Theresa May said that if we

:17:50.:17:53.

opted out of the arrest warrant, British criminals will be able to

:17:54.:17:57.

hop on the Eurostar or fly to Spain sake of the knowledge we wouldn't be

:17:58.:18:00.

able to get them back or prosecute them. So isn't it dangerous to play

:18:01.:18:03.

politics with the sort of things? That depends on what you put in its

:18:04.:18:07.

place, just as you wouldn't say that any criminal can hop on an aeroplane

:18:08.:18:11.

and go to United States and we can't extradite them... You come to

:18:12.:18:13.

different agreements which are perfectly possible and the

:18:14.:18:17.

independent commission said it is perfectly possible to do that.

:18:18.:18:22.

Things change but that does not mean that they get worse. They may not

:18:23.:18:25.

get worse but I think it is about the loss, perhaps, of information of

:18:26.:18:30.

intelligence is what the critics would say, people like Ed Vaizey. If

:18:31.:18:34.

you look Europol, last month the UK opted to remain a member on a

:18:35.:18:39.

temporary basis at least until we leave. The Government was warned it

:18:40.:18:42.

could lose vital intelligence unless it did so. So should we remain a

:18:43.:18:47.

member once we be the EU? Europol is under a duty to reach an agreement

:18:48.:18:50.

with the whole number of countries which are not currently part of the

:18:51.:18:56.

EU and when it comes to intelligence sharing, we are a massive net

:18:57.:19:01.

contributor to that intelligence in the European intelligence sphere.

:19:02.:19:03.

They would really damage themselves to cut us out because we are giving

:19:04.:19:07.

more to them than we get back. But I thought that was the whole point of

:19:08.:19:10.

Leave, you wanted to leave these things and take back control. You

:19:11.:19:14.

didn't necessarily want to be part of these agencies, I take your point

:19:15.:19:19.

about the name, and now you are saying you do. These agencies aren't

:19:20.:19:23.

based on the European Union. They are European wide and you take back

:19:24.:19:26.

control by taking back your laws and making the decision... Europol is

:19:27.:19:32.

the EU's law enforcement agency. You can opt in and a lot of other people

:19:33.:19:37.

opt in. But the vote to leave was to leave and it was to leave, in your

:19:38.:19:40.

mind, the single market and things like the customs union and in other

:19:41.:19:44.

people's mines, it would be to leave all the agencies that are associated

:19:45.:19:47.

and represent the EU, otherwise why did we believe? You are associating

:19:48.:19:53.

the decision to leave with drawing up the drawbridge and saying we will

:19:54.:19:58.

no longer take part in any of these. These are the things where we choose

:19:59.:20:03.

and there is no automaticity and no universal jurisdiction for the court

:20:04.:20:07.

of justice. That is what Leave and. Does that mean the same to you or

:20:08.:20:11.

does it mean we are going to opt back into many of the things we were

:20:12.:20:15.

a member of when we were in the EU? I assume we will opt back in. That's

:20:16.:20:18.

not necessarily a criticism of the Brexit position because underlying

:20:19.:20:23.

the Brexit position is what Gisela is saying, which is that it is a

:20:24.:20:26.

choice for the UK but choice goes both ways and we have to rely on our

:20:27.:20:32.

European partners. Certainly, I remember Theresa May, when she was

:20:33.:20:36.

Home Secretary during this campaign, putting security front and centre as

:20:37.:20:39.

part of our membership of the EU so I would want to see things like the

:20:40.:20:42.

European arrest warrant, which makes it much easier for us to get

:20:43.:20:47.

criminals back to the UK for trial and, obviously, Europol, where

:20:48.:20:50.

clearly the intelligence sharing is absolutely vital, being very much on

:20:51.:20:54.

the table with us looking for reasons to stay. But it is

:20:55.:20:58.

accountable to the European Parliament, as well as national

:20:59.:21:03.

parliaments, Europol, so if we maintain those close ties, won't we

:21:04.:21:07.

be subject to European laws? That would be the nature of how you opted

:21:08.:21:11.

to those negotiations and a lot of the intelligence sharing, whether it

:21:12.:21:18.

is defence cooperation, have almost been bilateral. They have not been

:21:19.:21:25.

on a European wide basis. Let's talk about... Gisela Stuart

:21:26.:21:28.

mentioned that we have, to some extent, the upper hand when it comes

:21:29.:21:32.

to intelligence, partly because the main intelligence relationships with

:21:33.:21:39.

countries outside the EU. So, actually, if we maintain those

:21:40.:21:42.

relationships, the EU will still want to have that sort of contact

:21:43.:21:46.

with us. Are we in a more advantageous position? Time will

:21:47.:21:53.

tell, whether we are in a more advantageous position. I don't think

:21:54.:21:57.

that Theresa May especially, as our Prime Minister, who has been groomed

:21:58.:22:01.

by her experience at the Home Office, is going to agree to

:22:02.:22:07.

anything that would put the UK in a more risky position, is the truth. I

:22:08.:22:11.

think she's terrible on other things. On safety, I think that's

:22:12.:22:15.

pretty much bread and butter. I think it would be incredibly

:22:16.:22:21.

shocking if other European countries came and said, "Sorry, we don't care

:22:22.:22:25.

about you being as safe, those bilateral agreements that we all had

:22:26.:22:29.

before, sorry, we're going to, because you are leaving Europe, you

:22:30.:22:32.

can't have the information that might save people in your country".

:22:33.:22:38.

I think that's unlikely. Let's talk about one other issue, slightly

:22:39.:22:41.

different, but still in the Home Office in trade, which is the colour

:22:42.:22:47.

of the passports. It wasn't a joke! Do you think they should go back to

:22:48.:22:51.

the old colour? I have a real problem because my first passport

:22:52.:22:53.

was green and after that it became whatever it is now. The Government

:22:54.:22:57.

can decide whatever colour it wishes. I think what really bothers

:22:58.:23:02.

people is to make sure that whatever passport they have now is valid

:23:03.:23:06.

until it expires and they don't incur any extra costs. Is this a

:23:07.:23:11.

burning issue for you? The minister said the Government is considering

:23:12.:23:14.

potential changes. Why do people keep saying it was blue? In my

:23:15.:23:18.

memory, it was black. I never have about possible because I was too

:23:19.:23:21.

young and I was on my parents' passport and when I had one was

:23:22.:23:25.

either a Brown card to go on a school trip or a red passport.

:23:26.:23:29.

Nobody has ever raised it with me on the doorstep. The day someone says,

:23:30.:23:34.

"This red passport has made me feel like I just don't belong here any

:23:35.:23:39.

more," is the day that I will campaign for a new colour passport.

:23:40.:23:43.

Until that day comes, I shall not give a toss what colour our

:23:44.:23:46.

passports are. That's very parliamentary speaker on the Daily

:23:47.:23:51.

Politics! What about you? Do you give a monkey's about the colour? I

:23:52.:23:57.

quite like the passport at the moment. What should please the

:23:58.:24:00.

Brexiteers is that clearly what will happen is that the words European

:24:01.:24:04.

Union, which have been on the front of our passport, will disappear and

:24:05.:24:08.

that should be enough for them. Maybe they'll send out special

:24:09.:24:11.

maroon stickers because I've just renewed my passport and it is valid

:24:12.:24:16.

for ten years and I will need a little sticker to blank out the

:24:17.:24:19.

European Union. I'm not paying for another one! You could have a

:24:20.:24:24.

special sticker made for you! Gisela Stuart, you don't need a passport to

:24:25.:24:28.

come onto the programme. Yet! That might be down to you, of course!

:24:29.:24:33.

Let's take a look at what the next few days have in store in the

:24:34.:24:34.

political week ahead. Chancellor Philip Hammond

:24:35.:24:37.

will be giving evidence to the Treasury Select Committee

:24:38.:24:38.

this afternoon, with reports that ministers are considering allowing

:24:39.:24:41.

councils to increase council tax The Prime Minister will also

:24:42.:24:43.

announce today that the UK will become one of the first

:24:44.:24:50.

countries to adopt an internationally recognised

:24:51.:24:53.

definition of anti-Semitism in order Half a million rail

:24:54.:24:55.

passengers face disruption on Tuesday, on the first of three

:24:56.:25:01.

days of strike action The dispute is over the role

:25:02.:25:04.

of conductors on trains. Also on Tuesday, Labour's

:25:05.:25:09.

Shadow Brexit Secretary, Keir Starmer, will be giving

:25:10.:25:13.

a speech on his party's priorities His opposite number

:25:14.:25:16.

David Davis will also be speaking on Wednesday,

:25:17.:25:23.

as he makes his first appearance On Thursday, Defence Secretary

:25:24.:25:26.

Michael Fallon will host a summit with the US

:25:27.:25:32.

Defence Secretary Ash Carter and representatives from 15 other

:25:33.:25:35.

countries focused on countering And in Holyrood,

:25:36.:25:37.

the Scottish Government will also present their draft

:25:38.:25:41.

Budget for 2017-18. are the Guardian's Holly Watt,

:25:42.:25:47.

and Jason Groves of the Daily Mail. Welcome to both of you. Holly, on

:25:48.:26:00.

social care, it's been in the news quite a lot recently, the chief

:26:01.:26:04.

executive of Care England has described the system is a house of

:26:05.:26:08.

cards that could topple at any moment. Widen the Chancellor cover

:26:09.:26:11.

it in his Autumn Statement, in your view? I think social care is one of

:26:12.:26:15.

those issues that affect absolutely everyone. Everyone knows people who

:26:16.:26:19.

are going into care homes, will have to go into care homes, have family

:26:20.:26:23.

members in care homes. This is one of those things that need to be

:26:24.:26:26.

handled on a cross-party basis but there's been quite a long period of

:26:27.:26:30.

people scoring political points backwards and forwards. Before the

:26:31.:26:34.

2010 election, Andrew Lansley, Norman Lamb and Andy Burnham try to

:26:35.:26:38.

sit down and think of how to resolve care homes on the problems within

:26:39.:26:43.

but that got shipwrecked with a Conservative Party election brochure

:26:44.:26:49.

and since then, there has been a long, ongoing attempt to resolve it,

:26:50.:26:53.

culminating in the Autumn Statement and it not being mentioned. How much

:26:54.:26:57.

pressure is the Government under to deal with this now? I think they're

:26:58.:27:01.

under a lot of pressure and you can see why because an answer to your

:27:02.:27:04.

question about why it didn't appear in the Autumn Statement, I think the

:27:05.:27:07.

reason is that some people in Number Ten thought, we are not going to put

:27:08.:27:11.

up council tax, we are just not going to do it. I think the fact

:27:12.:27:13.

that they are now contemplating it shows you the kind of pressure

:27:14.:27:18.

they're under, not just from the health sector, where there is a

:27:19.:27:21.

serious backlog building up in the NHS, also from local authorities,

:27:22.:27:26.

but from Tory MPs. Tory MPs are lobbying the Chancellor and Mrs May

:27:27.:27:29.

about this because they are seeing what is happening in their own

:27:30.:27:32.

communities and I think that's why, reluctantly, they are going to

:27:33.:27:36.

sanction some kind of, probably temporary, increasing council tax to

:27:37.:27:39.

keep the system on its feet while they look at longer-term reforms. It

:27:40.:27:43.

may be that we hear something later this week. Apparently. If we return

:27:44.:27:48.

to the issue of Brexit, Holly, according to the House of Lords EU

:27:49.:27:52.

committee, it is Brexit week. It feels like it's been Brexit week

:27:53.:27:56.

ever since June 23 but we are going to be hearing from David Davis at

:27:57.:27:59.

the Brexit select committee on Thursday. Will we hear anything new?

:28:00.:28:07.

Hopefully! Lots of people are asking... Kier Starmer Astra

:28:08.:28:10.

detailed analysis of how Brexiters going to happen last week and a lot

:28:11.:28:13.

of people are hoping David Davis is going to say more. Clearly, the

:28:14.:28:16.

Prime Minister has said that they can't put too much out there because

:28:17.:28:21.

that would damage their ability to negotiate with the EU but they are

:28:22.:28:27.

hoping that we will hear more. There are a series of reports coming out

:28:28.:28:30.

of the House of Lords this week, and that is six big parliamentary

:28:31.:28:34.

reports so it is clear there is so much detail that needs to be

:28:35.:28:37.

resolved. The arguments go on, Jason, about a hard and soft Brexit

:28:38.:28:44.

and Labour's position has been unclear, according to some of the

:28:45.:28:47.

Labour Party itself. The shadow Brexit secretary Kier Starmer is

:28:48.:28:50.

going to be making a speech tomorrow on Labour's priorities for the

:28:51.:28:55.

negotiations. Do you think they've got a clear enough position? Could

:28:56.:28:59.

you tell us? I don't think anyone could tell you. Hopefully, Kier

:29:00.:29:03.

Starmer will clear things up a bit tomorrow. The problem is, every time

:29:04.:29:07.

he does, somebody else, usually John McDonell, pops up and says something

:29:08.:29:10.

contrary. Kier Starmer will say it is a disaster to leave the single

:29:11.:29:14.

market and Brexiters all been handled very badly and then the

:29:15.:29:18.

Shadow Chancellor will say, actually, it's a fantastic

:29:19.:29:22.

opportunity. Jeremy Corbyn will talk about the bits of the EU that aren't

:29:23.:29:26.

popular, such as free movement and immigration, and will not really be

:29:27.:29:29.

too fussed about the single market. I hope we do get some clarity from

:29:30.:29:33.

Labour because it is hurting them. Attested in Richmond and is probably

:29:34.:29:37.

hurt them in Sleaford, whether just Rowden in fourth place. -- it hurt

:29:38.:29:46.

them in Richmond. I don't want to go back to the trouser story per se but

:29:47.:29:50.

if we read into the reaction from Fiona Hill, Theresa May's chief of

:29:51.:29:55.

staff, in terms of the texts she sent on the public spat that has

:29:56.:29:58.

emerged, what do you think it actually says about Theresa May's

:29:59.:30:00.

Number Ten operation? Lots of people have raised questions

:30:01.:30:08.

about the management of the Prime Minister's office and these abrupt

:30:09.:30:11.

text messages which emerged this weekend. It makes it clear they got

:30:12.:30:17.

a brusque way of managing. We saw that last week with Boris Johnson

:30:18.:30:22.

and the issues over his comments on Yemen. They have a very harsh way of

:30:23.:30:27.

managing things at times not causing people to be quite angry. All right,

:30:28.:30:33.

thank you both very much. Let's return to social care. Ed Vaizey,

:30:34.:30:38.

it's lost almost a tenth of its budget since 2010, more than 5000

:30:39.:30:44.

care beds had been lost in the past 18 months. More people are growing

:30:45.:30:48.

old that the care they need and by 2020 more than a million other

:30:49.:30:51.

people will be over the age of 75. Is the system on the verge of

:30:52.:30:55.

collapse? I would not go that far but it clearly needs to be

:30:56.:30:59.

addressed. My County Council, when we had 2% added to the preset,

:31:00.:31:08.

founded welcome and I know social care has enabled us to live longer,

:31:09.:31:13.

good thing. We are introducing a national living wage, good thing,

:31:14.:31:19.

but putting pressure on costs. It is doubling. Local budgets have reduced

:31:20.:31:25.

significantly. Who's fault is that? The last Labour government. Of

:31:26.:31:32.

course, yeah! I'm inclined to comment on what the situation is at

:31:33.:31:35.

the moment and if you are saying, yes, it's partly to do with a

:31:36.:31:38.

reduction of local authority budgets, clearly the fact were

:31:39.:31:42.

having a debate about allowing councils to increase it is a

:31:43.:31:44.

recognition that council budgets are... But it clearly not enough

:31:45.:31:49.

also why wasn't something done about it in the Autumn Statement? I'm not

:31:50.:31:55.

a member of the government. Should he have addressed it? Something

:31:56.:31:58.

needs to be addressed, clearly, so let's see what comes up in terms of

:31:59.:32:03.

giving councils of flexibility they need. Labour also feel it a bit much

:32:04.:32:08.

to dump it on council tax. It's ridiculous to do that especially if

:32:09.:32:12.

you come from a large authority like Birmingham. Where would you get the

:32:13.:32:15.

money from them? The government should increase the grounds they

:32:16.:32:19.

give to them. Cancels like mine, are different to the ones Ed get his

:32:20.:32:24.

resources from full that they can't raise the same amount of money from

:32:25.:32:30.

council tax. It relies heavily on government grants already full

:32:31.:32:34.

support and show will get a week for care homes for the elderly people

:32:35.:32:39.

whereas in Birmingham it is 400. That is completely unsustainable.

:32:40.:32:44.

There is a need for the government to recognise that, when we invest in

:32:45.:32:47.

infrastructure, all the money they gave away in the Autumn Statement,

:32:48.:32:51.

sometimes infrastructure is people and there is a massive

:32:52.:32:54.

infrastructure which needs to be built up in social care. Would you

:32:55.:32:58.

be prepared to put up general taxation? Yes, I think we have got

:32:59.:33:05.

to look at this and people every week, as an MP, you get letters

:33:06.:33:10.

saying, I don't want to sell my house to look after my mum, I don't

:33:11.:33:15.

want to sell her house. People got to recognise this is going to cost.

:33:16.:33:18.

People need to pay for it however the government invested billions in

:33:19.:33:26.

infrastructure in shovel ready projects in the Autumn Statement

:33:27.:33:29.

also why on earth that may invest in the infrastructure like child care,

:33:30.:33:33.

social care? Just to make it clear, you would be prepared to back a call

:33:34.:33:38.

for increasing income tax, central taxation, to fund social care? Yes.

:33:39.:33:46.

That's clear. The government has allowed the precept to increase and

:33:47.:33:50.

pulled budgets were cancelled and health authorities can pull their

:33:51.:33:55.

budgets. I want to take issue with Jeff depicting my County Council as

:33:56.:33:59.

sitting on a pile of cash. But there are richer and poorer cancels. We

:34:00.:34:03.

get less money for education and Birmingham. You accept the point

:34:04.:34:09.

Jess makes that if you laid to the council tax, in more deprived

:34:10.:34:11.

communities, they struggle to make the same amount of money as a richer

:34:12.:34:16.

cancels. I'm not saying you're sitting on a pilot cash but which of

:34:17.:34:21.

them Jess's. I would not accept that. Would you like me to send you

:34:22.:34:27.

the figures? You have different pressures in Birmingham than we have

:34:28.:34:31.

in Oxfordshire. The largest numbers of burnable children. Let her talk.

:34:32.:34:37.

Have you got figures to show that his council is better off than

:34:38.:34:42.

yours? I did a report on every single Council and the country

:34:43.:34:46.

asking what their pay rates were for nursing home care, social care, and

:34:47.:34:55.

the disparity between... In Tory councils, twice as much money in

:34:56.:34:59.

Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Walsall, Solihull, which is next door

:35:00.:35:03.

bordering my constituency gets about ?100 more. My old people deserve

:35:04.:35:09.

just as much as your old people. At the moment, the way the government

:35:10.:35:13.

is creating, it's going to create a worst postcode lottery. It's based

:35:14.:35:18.

on formulas which have been around for a very long time. Let's change

:35:19.:35:24.

it. Rural councils face higher costs in terms of transport and education

:35:25.:35:28.

are lobbying for more money. They compare itself to Birmingham and

:35:29.:35:33.

they will show figures where they are losing out to authorities like

:35:34.:35:38.

Birmingham so you can blame... We are talking about social careful

:35:39.:35:41.

stop there is a fundamental agreement more money needs to be

:35:42.:35:45.

going through. Should go through the precept? If you are paying far

:35:46.:35:55.

higher percentage of income in cancer fact that if you are wealthy.

:35:56.:35:59.

The just about managing class, the group of people Theresa May really

:36:00.:36:04.

wants... A lot of people can't afford to pay their council tax

:36:05.:36:08.

because this government has raised the threshold significantly for

:36:09.:36:11.

people in terms of income tax so people on... So why don't you make

:36:12.:36:16.

it income tax rather than council tax? It would be more progressive.

:36:17.:36:21.

There was a cap suggested on the amount an individual should have to

:36:22.:36:26.

spend on their social care. And to do a lot to the big report a few

:36:27.:36:31.

years ago and it was shelved. -- Andrew Dill not. The Treasury came

:36:32.:36:38.

back with ?72,000 in the end. It has not happened for them it was due to

:36:39.:36:42.

happen around now. Should there be a cab and what should it be? People

:36:43.:36:47.

don't want to be in a position where they are going into care having to

:36:48.:36:52.

effectively sell their house. People quite rightly regard that as an

:36:53.:36:57.

asset they've built up. I certainly think the government should consider

:36:58.:37:04.

a cap. 35,000? 75,000? It's something which needs to have a

:37:05.:37:09.

discussion. I'm not going to sell this programme what I'm going to fly

:37:10.:37:14.

off the top of my head. Ten years ago, we've opposed a system of

:37:15.:37:18.

social insurers where people could take out insurance to cover their

:37:19.:37:24.

care costs and that is another element. Do you think there will be

:37:25.:37:27.

agreement, a decision, an announcement? As a backbencher, I

:37:28.:37:34.

get my news from the newspapers, not from any special briefing. But

:37:35.:37:39.

clearly, there is a move not to solve this problem, because it needs

:37:40.:37:47.

a much wider debate. Entrenched the problem. Funding is definitely on

:37:48.:37:50.

the agenda. It's the official edited transcript

:37:51.:37:52.

of what goes on in Parliament. It's published daily and details

:37:53.:38:02.

the momentous occasions and the quieter moments

:38:03.:38:04.

in the Commons, so you don't The goings-on in Parliament

:38:05.:38:06.

are watched closely. Comments and counterclaims

:38:07.:38:12.

pored over, especially Of course, there are times

:38:13.:38:14.

when there are fewer But even in those quiet times,

:38:15.:38:17.

there are two sets of eyes and ears taking down,

:38:18.:38:25.

witnessing everything They sit here above

:38:26.:38:27.

the Speaker's chair. They are the reporters of Hansard,

:38:28.:38:31.

and they've been here for centuries, with different staff over

:38:32.:38:34.

the years, of course. Two reporters at any given

:38:35.:38:36.

time are in these seats. It's difficult to get in and out of,

:38:37.:38:42.

but you have the best And you're craning your neck

:38:43.:38:47.

searching the benches for anything that people would say that you need

:38:48.:38:51.

to put into the record. A purely verbatim report wouldn't be

:38:52.:38:56.

a useful thing as a written record, so we translate the spoken

:38:57.:39:03.

to the written, so that the record The reporters watch back video

:39:04.:39:06.

of the debate they made notes on and then type it up,

:39:07.:39:14.

editing as they go. The deadlines are very tight

:39:15.:39:18.

so if I'm doing a five-minute turn, which is a chunk of debate

:39:19.:39:21.

that we report, I have 45 minutes to get that done

:39:22.:39:25.

and onto the sub-editor's desk. I'll then have a few minutes

:39:26.:39:28.

before I have to go back Hansard has been the official record

:39:29.:39:31.

of Parliament since 1909. But for hundreds of years before

:39:32.:39:37.

that, there were competing journals So it's interesting standing

:39:38.:39:40.

here seeing this huge row of books. If we look at the years they cover,

:39:41.:39:46.

we can see here they start And we have to walk quite a long way

:39:47.:39:50.

before we then get to the Battle of Waterloo and even further before

:39:51.:39:55.

we get to the First World War and it's only by this point

:39:56.:40:00.

when I've walked really quite a long way that we get to the 1940s

:40:01.:40:03.

in the Second World War. way that we get to the 1940s

:40:04.:40:08.

and the Second World War. These days, most of our customers

:40:09.:40:11.

access Hansard in digital form. In those days, the print

:40:12.:40:14.

run was quite big. When I joined Hansard 20 years ago,

:40:15.:40:16.

there were still many thousands And also, all these lovely bound

:40:17.:40:19.

volumes were sent out to all the libraries in the country

:40:20.:40:24.

as a way of distributing them. These days we produce several

:40:25.:40:29.

hundred daily copies which members still like to use in the chamber

:40:30.:40:33.

and very, very few of A lot of work in recent years has

:40:34.:40:35.

been aimed at making our digital House of Commons business

:40:36.:40:41.

is available to read on the Hansard And you can search for your

:40:42.:40:46.

own MP, for example. And that's quicker, of course,

:40:47.:40:52.

than sitting through hours I'm only asking you this because I

:40:53.:41:10.

went to Mac and first last time forth if anything you've said that

:41:11.:41:14.

you've regretted or had changed? I've had the same thing changed on

:41:15.:41:17.

two different occasions for the because I'm from Birmingham and when

:41:18.:41:21.

I say the word number, if I talk about my mum, being a mum in the

:41:22.:41:24.

House of Commons, they always write it M U M and we spell it mum. It a

:41:25.:41:36.

noisy when they sanitise my regional accent so I check because it was

:41:37.:41:42.

maiden speech. I said, I would never say mum, I say mum. I got them to

:41:43.:41:49.

change it. You can have things changed. You can reprint it?

:41:50.:41:57.

Potentially. She's a troublemaker with Hansard. What about you?

:41:58.:42:01.

Anything you've helped Hansard didn't record? The joke is always

:42:02.:42:06.

that you can make any kind of announcement you like in the House

:42:07.:42:08.

of Commons if you wanted kept secret. Is that true? Anything I

:42:09.:42:14.

found this programme I will be trolled from Italy end of the day on

:42:15.:42:21.

Twitter about how awful I been. If I made a debate in Parliament, where I

:42:22.:42:28.

messed up, and was useless, no one would say anything. Has that

:42:29.:42:34.

happened a lot? Whenever I speak in there, it ends up in the paper. I'm

:42:35.:42:37.

incredibly dull in Parliament, that's true.

:42:38.:42:40.

LAUGHTER I didn't want to save. Hansard is

:42:41.:42:47.

recording this. Everybody else on Twitter is, so you can rest assured

:42:48.:42:48.

it will be there. Is the standard of food served up

:42:49.:42:51.

in prisons contributing to problems That's the view of Lucy Vincent,

:42:52.:42:53.

a writer and campaigner who says meals in prisons are often

:42:54.:42:57.

substandard and need When I first started researching

:42:58.:42:59.

food in UK prisons I didn't And, although it's a far cry

:43:00.:43:10.

from Dickensian porridge, it turns out prison food is more

:43:11.:43:17.

similar to school dinners before Jamie Oliver brought

:43:18.:43:21.

about change 11 years ago. Think excess carbohydrates

:43:22.:43:27.

and a severe lack of What I wasn't prepared to discover

:43:28.:43:29.

was the significant impact low quality food is having

:43:30.:43:38.

on the inmates of our At a time of national chaos

:43:39.:43:40.

in the UK prison system, we are feeding some of society's

:43:41.:43:45.

most vulnerable and mentally unstable individuals food that's

:43:46.:43:49.

having a much more severe impact on their well-being

:43:50.:43:52.

than we might realise. A recent report by HM Inspectorate

:43:53.:44:01.

of Prisons has revealed significant failings in prison food

:44:02.:44:04.

across the board and record Only 29% of prisoner survey

:44:05.:44:06.

respondents described the food Food being served below temperature,

:44:07.:44:14.

lack of communal dining due to staff shortages and low nutritional

:44:15.:44:25.

quality all crop up continuously. Last year, an inmate at HMP

:44:26.:44:31.

Northumberland staged a protest on a high railing after receiving

:44:32.:44:36.

a cold meal. A decade ago, the country saw

:44:37.:44:48.

the effect better nutrition, less additives and more fresh food

:44:49.:44:51.

had on schoolchildren. Pupils got on better,

:44:52.:44:56.

behaved well and, as a result, Why can't we do the same

:44:57.:44:59.

in our country's prisons? The report also noted a lack

:45:00.:45:11.

of opportunities for prisoners to cook for themselves or to learn

:45:12.:45:14.

catering skills in prison kitchens. These activities could aid

:45:15.:45:23.

rehabilitation and improve their Decent nutrition has the power

:45:24.:45:26.

to positively impact everything from self-esteem to health,

:45:27.:45:40.

learning and development. When you are dealing

:45:41.:45:47.

with individuals who are likely to have struggled with these issues

:45:48.:45:49.

more than most, I believe this becomes a matter

:45:50.:45:52.

of much greater importance. Lucy Vincent is here,

:45:53.:46:00.

and we've also been joined by the Conservative

:46:01.:46:02.

MP Stewart Jackson. Lucy, some people would say we spent

:46:03.:46:15.

enough on prisoners. Each prisoner Place costs around ?3000 a year. Do

:46:16.:46:19.

we need to spend more? At this stage, what I'm asking for is not

:46:20.:46:23.

more money, necessarily. You can eat and cook well with not much money

:46:24.:46:27.

and at the moment, prison spending per head per day is around ?2 and I

:46:28.:46:32.

do think that you can eat well with that kind of money. I think what

:46:33.:46:36.

Jamie Oliver did in schools, he had around 37p, I know it was ten years

:46:37.:46:40.

ago, per head per day, and he proved that. It was difficult but he did

:46:41.:46:46.

it. What do you say, Stewart Jackson? I'm slightly sympathetic

:46:47.:46:50.

but I do think there are bigger priorities in prison. One of them is

:46:51.:46:54.

violence, the other is the proliferation of drugs, mental

:46:55.:46:58.

health problems, family breakdown and literacy and numeracy and

:46:59.:47:02.

general education. These are all important issues which I would

:47:03.:47:07.

suggest or a higher priority than issues around nutrition. Lee

:47:08.:47:09.

Stevenson says that if you take the examples of schools and the food

:47:10.:47:13.

that kids were eating, fewer additives meant better behaviour. --

:47:14.:47:20.

Lucy Vincent says. Let's get into perspective that this hasn't been a

:47:21.:47:24.

major issue by international comparisons, the quality of

:47:25.:47:27.

nutrition, the quality of food served in our prisons. Either

:47:28.:47:31.

visited some of the toughest prisons in the world. I was in San Miguel

:47:32.:47:37.

prison in Santiago in Chile when 81 people were killed in a riot. It was

:47:38.:47:43.

Dickensian. By comparison, the UK has a very good prison standard. You

:47:44.:47:47.

have chosen the extreme, one might say! If we keep to the idea of

:47:48.:47:52.

trying to improve, if that's what Lucy is suggesting, the quality of

:47:53.:47:55.

food will improve the experience for prisoners in jail... The thing is,

:47:56.:48:02.

Lucy, would it have that much of an impact? Would you get your inmates

:48:03.:48:06.

eating that nice plate of fruit and vegetables? A major say, I don't

:48:07.:48:11.

like it. From the prisoners and ex-prisoners I've spoken to, one of

:48:12.:48:14.

the main things they crave inside things like salads, and one woman I

:48:15.:48:20.

spoke to, when she came out of prison, she went straight to

:48:21.:48:23.

Morrisons, bought a salad and chicken breast and dated on the

:48:24.:48:26.

train that because she hadn't had it for three years. Do you consider

:48:27.:48:30.

having good food and decent food privilege or a necessity? Obviously,

:48:31.:48:34.

it's a necessity but we have to strike the balance between what

:48:35.:48:37.

people expect in a prison, which is not cordon bladder, high-end

:48:38.:48:42.

cuisine, basically, because taxpayers are paying for

:48:43.:48:48.

incarcerating people. To get a custodial sentence these days, you

:48:49.:48:52.

have to have committed quite a serious crime. What do you say to

:48:53.:48:56.

that? I'm not pitching three course Michelin star meals. I'm talking

:48:57.:49:02.

about fresh, healthy, simple, cheap food that they'll enjoy eating more

:49:03.:49:05.

than they're eating at the moment but mainly to improve their

:49:06.:49:08.

behaviour. Part of the report that I based my research on, they did a

:49:09.:49:13.

study in prisons and they gave exactly the same food for a month

:49:14.:49:17.

but they gave them some nutritional supplements, so things like vitamin

:49:18.:49:20.

see that they may not have been getting from fresh fruit, and they

:49:21.:49:23.

noticed a significant increase in better behaviour, lack of violence

:49:24.:49:28.

and prisons were calmer and I think that is really interesting and that

:49:29.:49:31.

was just nutritional supplements. They were still eating all the

:49:32.:49:36.

carbs. I agree with that and I think that's a great project. What we need

:49:37.:49:39.

to do is have more social investment bonds like in Doncaster and

:49:40.:49:43.

Peterborough, where you tackle recidivism and you actually give a

:49:44.:49:48.

fiscal incentive to keep people from coming back into prison. Nutrition

:49:49.:49:51.

can be part of that project, funded by the third sector and government.

:49:52.:49:55.

Labour did it and we did it and we need to roll that out a bit more but

:49:56.:50:00.

what I am saying is that probably the priority, when resources are

:50:01.:50:05.

very tight, our drugs and violence within prisons. But this isn't about

:50:06.:50:10.

costing any more money. That's Lucy's point. It doesn't cost any

:50:11.:50:12.

more to present the sort of food that people might want to eat, the

:50:13.:50:16.

sort of food that might calm people down, that might lead to a reduction

:50:17.:50:20.

in violence or drug smuggling or the desire to commit more crime within

:50:21.:50:26.

prison. We've got to trust prison governors as well. I think Stuart is

:50:27.:50:29.

being remarkably emollient on this show. I suspect he had crushed

:50:30.:50:32.

avocado on wholemeal bread for breakfast! Tofu! Are you not giving

:50:33.:50:40.

us a true reflection of your views, Stewart Jackson? I do support Lucy's

:50:41.:50:47.

point. I boarded a wider context it clearly, when you debate anything

:50:48.:50:51.

like this, you have a binary debate, soft on crime and prisoners, to the

:50:52.:50:55.

redemption debate. When Michael Gove was just a secretary, he had the

:50:56.:50:59.

support of the papers because he had the credibility of being a

:51:00.:51:03.

centre-right politician, saying, we got to get out of this mentality of

:51:04.:51:06.

just locking people up and throwing away the key because they are going

:51:07.:51:09.

to come back into society. That's your mentality, isn't it? The more

:51:10.:51:15.

skills they have an game when they are in prison, the more likely they

:51:16.:51:18.

will be integrated into society and the less it will cost us on the

:51:19.:51:22.

better it will be for them. I agree with all that. I do think, though,

:51:23.:51:25.

that we've got to trust prison governors and not throw the key

:51:26.:51:31.

away. I do believe, though, that you've actually got to understand

:51:32.:51:35.

that people believe that people are in prison, taxpayers, for a reason.

:51:36.:51:39.

And that's the point. You go to prison, you've committed a crime, in

:51:40.:51:44.

many cases are very serious crime, you lose personal freedoms and

:51:45.:51:47.

choice and that means you don't get great food either. One person I

:51:48.:51:50.

respect to who had served a short sentence summed it up really well.

:51:51.:51:54.

She said, you go to prison to get your freedom taken away from you.

:51:55.:51:57.

You do not go to prison to be starved or have your health

:51:58.:52:01.

compromise. Is that happening? From the research I've come across, there

:52:02.:52:05.

has been a significant decrease in food quality in prisons over the

:52:06.:52:08.

years and it is having a much bigger impact than we realise. We do not

:52:09.:52:12.

want to see people starved or feeling they are being starved order

:52:13.:52:20.

prized? Let's move onto anecdote -- from anecdote... I don't think Her

:52:21.:52:23.

Majesty is in prisons has found that degree of nutritional problems in

:52:24.:52:27.

prison. You've got to see it in a wider context of teaching people to

:52:28.:52:32.

read and write, giving them self worth, letting them work and earn

:52:33.:52:37.

money. Just briefly, Jess Phillips, one of the issues Stewart Jackson

:52:38.:52:42.

wrote about was the smuggling of drugs, drones being used of fruit

:52:43.:52:46.

and veg going to stop that? Of course not on their own, but I've

:52:47.:52:53.

worked in prisons for many years, I ran a female offenderss' service and

:52:54.:52:57.

contrary to what has been said, lots of people are in there completely

:52:58.:53:00.

nonserious things, such as their children not going to school and

:53:01.:53:06.

women on short sentences. They're all sorts of health and locations

:53:07.:53:09.

for those people that definitely need to be considered, about whether

:53:10.:53:12.

prisoners the right place for those sentences to go ahead but also,

:53:13.:53:17.

these people need to be looked after within the same degree that we would

:53:18.:53:22.

also expect them to be punished. Thank you both very much. It's

:53:23.:53:23.

nearly lunchtime! Now, what to put on top

:53:24.:53:25.

of your Christmas tree is not normally a decision

:53:26.:53:28.

that involves politics. But if you think an angel or a Star

:53:29.:53:29.

of David is a bit passe, and you're also a fan

:53:30.:53:33.

of Jeremy Corbyn, then you might A crochet satirist -

:53:34.:53:36.

that's crochet, by the way, not knitting - has made

:53:37.:53:39.

an alternative Christmas tree topper in the form

:53:40.:53:42.

of the Labour leader. It's said to be the perfect ornament

:53:43.:53:44.

for the "festive atheist socialist". But it's been selling

:53:45.:53:50.

so well that the artist - who, as you might have guessed,

:53:51.:53:53.

is a supporter of Jeremy Corbyn - says she won't now be

:53:54.:53:56.

able to process any more Here's the US

:53:57.:53:58.

President-elect Donald Trump. But he's a "voodoo pincushion",

:53:59.:54:06.

which is a bit less festive. There's also the former leader

:54:07.:54:11.

of Ukip, Nigel Farage. This one is, of course,

:54:12.:54:22.

David Cameron. And the former Education

:54:23.:54:24.

Secretary Michael Gove. The former Work and Pensions

:54:25.:54:30.

Secretary Iain Duncan Smith. Now, the artist, Kat Stiff,

:54:31.:54:35.

actually met Jeremy Corbyn And she managed to give him

:54:36.:54:37.

a crochet doll of himself - it looks like he was happy

:54:38.:54:41.

to receive it. She's here with us now. What gave

:54:42.:54:48.

you the idea? Which idea? Of crocheting politicians, even the

:54:49.:54:53.

ones you like. I woke up one morning and put on the radio and Michael

:54:54.:54:56.

Gove had said something about the last straw was when he was trying to

:54:57.:55:01.

reduce the summer holidays, and the level of frustration I felt was not

:55:02.:55:06.

very healthy and I thought, how can I deal with this? I was crocheting

:55:07.:55:11.

dolls of Poirot on various things so I thought I would crochet a pin

:55:12.:55:16.

Gove's face and then I posted on social media and a lot of people...

:55:17.:55:22.

It got a good response. We have noticed that you have crocheted nice

:55:23.:55:26.

dolls of left-wing politicians, those who support, and pin cushions

:55:27.:55:30.

of the right wing once. If someone wanted an order the other way round,

:55:31.:55:35.

would you do it? Ultimately, someone could buy the Jeremy Corbyn and they

:55:36.:55:38.

could stick pins in it if they want to. That is very true. Does it take

:55:39.:55:44.

you a long time to make each one? About three or four hours. They're

:55:45.:55:53.

beautiful! What's along the front? We've got Nigel Farage but he is not

:55:54.:56:00.

a pincushion. I'd have him as my pincushion! Can you tell us who the

:56:01.:56:07.

others are? Michael Gove and David Cameron. You want Michael Gove?

:56:08.:56:20.

Remember when Peter Mandelson... Hello, Michael. Are you enjoying the

:56:21.:56:24.

backbenchers? I thought your programme with Fern Britton

:56:25.:56:27.

yesterday was very good. Have you rehearsed this? About Ron Jeremy

:56:28.:56:33.

Corbyn, which is your favourite? Er... Jeremy Corbyn is the only nice

:56:34.:56:42.

one I make! Do you make any women? Not yet but I'm going to do Theresa

:56:43.:56:49.

May after Christmas. Valid point! Jess Phillips, one of the most

:56:50.:56:53.

prominent Labour backbenchers who could possibly find. What is the

:56:54.:56:55.

difference between crochet and knitting? Crochet is one hook and is

:56:56.:57:00.

a series of knots, whereas knitting is two needles and I don't know how

:57:01.:57:04.

to knit at all. They are completely different. When did you start

:57:05.:57:10.

crocheting? About four years ago. It's amazing! Would that be at the

:57:11.:57:17.

top of your Christmas tree? I would love to buy this but you probably

:57:18.:57:23.

don't sell to Tories. Michael Gove ordered one! I didn't know what to

:57:24.:57:33.

do. They ordered it on your website? What was the editor? They gave me

:57:34.:57:35.

their address, which I thought was bowled! Don't give that out on the

:57:36.:57:44.

show! It was in the Metro or something and I got an order from

:57:45.:57:47.

Michael Gove. I thought, is this real? And it was! But you are busy

:57:48.:57:52.

now until the New Year, so you would have to get your orders in now for

:57:53.:57:59.

next year. There is one there but it is not for you. Is that a display

:58:00.:58:05.

copy? Thank you for bringing them in. Listen, you!

:58:06.:58:08.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:58:09.:58:12.

which of these cards is not from a political leader?

:58:13.:58:15.

What is the correct answer? I know the ones on my left. The Dove and

:58:16.:58:26.

Downing Street are Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn. I'm going for the

:58:27.:58:32.

squirrel. That is actually from Danny Alexander, the Liberal

:58:33.:58:35.

Democrat former Chief Secretary to the Treasury, and it was a Christmas

:58:36.:58:39.

card because it was a rude, but was made by Harriet Harman. We will have

:58:40.:58:42.

a quick look at Christmas cards. They will go across the screen at

:58:43.:58:45.

the end. These are some of the cards that Theresa May has received and is

:58:46.:58:51.

going to send out. They were done by schoolchildren for her especially.

:58:52.:58:54.

She picked three different designs and the dove of peace was Jeremy

:58:55.:59:03.

Corbyn's card. That's it. Thank you very much. That was the Lib Dems.

:59:04.:59:06.

Tim Farron!

:59:07.:59:09.

Jo Coburn is joined by former culture minister Ed Vaizey and Labour's Jess Phillips for the latest news from Westminster including the debate over funding for social care and the status of EU citizens living in the UK post-Brexit. Plus an interview with the woman who knits Jeremy Corbyn dolls.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS