12/12/2016 Daily Politics

This is BBC News - and these are the top stories

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

A cross-party group calls on the government to guarantee that

EU citizens living in the UK can stay after Brexit.

Leading Leave campaigner Gisela Stuart tells us why.

Theresa May is under pressure to sanction a rise in council tax

in England to boost spending on social care for the elderly.

Is the food served in prisons causing riots?

We'll hear from the campaigner who wants a nutritious overhaul

And we go behind-the-scenes in parliament to discover

the history of Hansard, the official publication

which captures every word spoken in the Commons and the Lords.

And with us for the whole of the programme today, the former

Conservative culture minister Ed Vaizey,

But first, let's take a look at a couple

of political warnings issued yesterday on the Sunday Politics.

First up, Ken Livingstone, who was asked by Andrew

By what time do you start to get worried if the polls haven't

Oh, I mean, I think they will turn around...

But generally when do you start to get worried if they haven't?

If in a year's time it was still as bad as this,

I don't think it will be because Jeremy and his team

are going to focus on the economy and that's what wins every election.

Remember, Bill Clinton - "It's the economy, stupid."

Ken Clarke also appeared on the Sunday Politics yesterday.

Here he is being asked about Theresa May's future,

should she decide to pursue what he calls a "hard Brexit".

You seem to be quoted in the Mail on Sunday this morning as saying

that if the Prime Minister's sides too much with the hard Brexit

It is because I think only a minority of the House of Commons

think it's all frightfully simple and you can just leave.

She will be in a minority if she started adopting the views

of John Redwood or Iain Duncan Smith.

It's quite clear that a majority of the House of Commons does not

agree with that and actually it would be pretty catastrophic

We turn up and face 27 other nation states and the biggest free

market in the world, and tell them we are

Ed Vaizey, is Ken Clarke ride, Theresa May could be brought down if

she sides with Eurosceptic head-bangers in her party? No, it's

not right, first of all, I don't think she will be brought down.

She's in an unassailable position, very popular with MPs and incredibly

popular in the country, not just with voters. My question is, if she

sides with Eurosceptic MPs. If she goes for a hard Brexit? I don't

think she will but I can dodge the question this way. I don't think she

will go from hard Brexit. That's my next question. You don't think she

will take the UK out of the single market? You are asking me, almost

inviting me to dodge the question. It quite clear, coming out of a

customs union is not a hard Brexit for the you can't leave the EU

without leaving those two elements because you need to control

immigration and have your own free trade treaties. What do you think is

a hard Brexit then? These terms are unhelpful for supper hard Brexit

would be by and large an ideological exit from the European Union which

didn't take into account of the important factors such as the one

they going to discuss later about the right of EU nationals living in

the UK, so I would like to see... If you want me to move closer perhaps

to Ken's position, I would urge the Prime Minister to change some of the

rhetoric falls I'd like to see her reaching out to the remain as

because there's nothing wrong having voted remain, believing the backdrop

in the European Union and raising your concerns about what the future

holds. On that issue of tone and reaching out, let's talk about

trouser gate. In a sartorial failure to reach out across the divide from

the Education Secretary, for her ?995 pair of brown leather trousers,

bitter chocolate they were described as in one of the papers. Nicky

Morgan was then banned from the meeting due to attend at number ten.

Do you think that was the right response? I was surprised to see

that appear in the newspapers. I don't know if they were crumbs from

the Russian intelligence service at the moment which is hacking... These

were texts Chief of staff. Fiona Hill, I don't

want to get into the row between them. Was it appropriate for those

texts to be sent so Nicky Morgan was banned? People send text messages to

each other all the time. People in number ten, senior figures

particularly, do it with an element of authority and adapted them to

make a judgment on whether people should not be included in meetings.

It's a very unfortunate dispute. I wish it had not happened. I admire

Nicky Morgan for standing up for what she believes in but, in this

case, it's a dangerous way to go. Fiona Hill speaks for the Prime

Minister when she issued a text saying don't bring Nicky Morgan to

number ten again, is that the right thing? I don't know whether the

Prime Minister was going to be at the meeting. She has a lot of huge

things to deal with. Do you think she has actioned it? I don't know, I

doubt it very much. Fiona Hill, chief of staff, she's entitled to

make a position clear about who should be at an internal meeting in

number ten and unfortunately it's gone into this position where we are

playing effectively with personal politics and moving away from the

issues which are incredibly important and need to be discussed

for the let's talk to Jess Phillips about Jeremy Corbyn. Not trousers.

We've had enough of trousers and handbags. The party has sunk to 25%

of the support in a survey three days ago. Its worst showing since

1983. It lost the Richmond by-election. Ken Livingstone said

yesterday, if it's as bad as this in a year's time we would be worried.

Are you worried now? Do you agree with him? I agree with the

substantive point that if we are in this position in a year's time,

yeah, it's going to have to look at what we're going to do about that.

I'm worried already. We need a good run in the election. It's not that

far-away. I think that the Labour Party needs a good shake after the

two by-elections. We shouldn't read too much into by-elections which are

won or lost by the favourite party in the area because they are the

usual things, but, yeah, we need to be worrying. What would you do? The

Labour Party needs to have a much clearer position on certain things

and we need to act together. That's the truthful top is Brexit, having a

clear position on that because on the doorstep anecdotally the message

seemed to be that people didn't know what Labour position actually was

regarding Brexit? Both of those by-elections, it became a further

referendum on Brexit with a 1-1 draw in both cases. In those particular

elections, I think in a general election, post-Article 50, hard

Brexit, whatever happens, the Brexit message won't necessarily be the

only thing you have to be clear on but the Labour Party is in a

difficult position where we have MPs in very heavily remain areas and

very heavy lead areas. Would you give it a year or do you think

something needs to be done sooner? I think you need to give it here

because I'm sick of the Labour Party talking about itself I'm interested

in talking to people behind the doors. Diane Abbott said the poll

gap with the Tories would be closed by next year. Do you believe that,

17 points? If you have asked me where we would be in world politics

18 months ago, I wouldn't about a clue. It difficult for me to say

what will happen in a year's time. At the moment, we seem on a similar

trajectory for quite some time and we need a kick up the bum to sort it

out. All right. On point, we will move on the.

Now it's time for our daily quiz, which is all about the fraught issue

I'm sure my two guests of all body sent to their hundreds. -- already

sent their hundreds. And the question for today is,

which of these cards is not At the end of the show,

we'll see if Ed and Jess can give Now, over the coming days

on the Daily Politics we're going to be taking a look

at the issues faced by key government departments

in the run-up to Brexit. For today's Brexit Tracker,

we're looking at the challenges faced by Home Secretary Amber Rudd,

whose brief covers the contentious issues of immigration

and border control. So what exactly is in

her Brexit in-tray? Politicians and their civil servants

in the Home Office have plenty to wrestle with as we move

into a post-Brexit world - and not just the potentially

implementing new restrictions on EU immigration, though that will be

taking up plenty of their time. They have to weigh up

whether to try to remain part of the European Arrest Warrant

scheme, which returns Theresa May supported it

when Home Secretary but civil servants will now be exploring

whether bilateral deals can be as effective or, indeed,

whether it's necessary at all. A decision on Europol

is coming even quicker, with Britain needing to decide

in the coming months if it wants to sign up to new rules expanding

the European law enforcement agency's powers to fight terrorism

or opt out and potentially lose access to databases

of European criminals. The department will also be

grappling with what to do about the Northern Ireland border,

whether the UK can continue in the common travel area,

which allows free movement between the mainland and Ireland,

or whether a hard border will be required to prevent EU nationals

gaining unregistered The EU will introduce tighter data

protection measures in 2018, despite the UK arguing

against it during negotiations. The Home Office takes responsibility

for data protection. Will it need to seek equivalence

with EU standards to continue access to the digital single market,

or will it now take the opportunity to seek a looser set

of regulations outside? One area where work is progressing

apace is on changing our passports. A campaign to remove the words

"European Union" and return to the blue colour of old received

a filip after minister Robert Goodwill announced

the Government was now considering potential changes

to the UK passport in September. These are just some of the issues

Home Secretary Amber Rudd and her team have on their plates

as the Government moves ever closer to triggering Article 50 and firing

the starting gun on our exit And to discuss all of that we've

been joined by the Labour MP Gisela Stuart, who led

the Vote Leave referendum campaign. She's now working with

the cross-party thinktank British Future, which today

delivered a letter to Downing Street demanding the Government guarantee

the right to remain in the UK to EU Welcome to Daily Politics. You said

you want the government to grant 1.8 million EU citizens right to remain

in the UK before Article 50 was triggered and you want the

government do that with no guarantee that European member states will

reciprocate and protect the rights of UK nationals living elsewhere in

the EU. Is that a smart negotiating strategy? 2.8 million EU citizens

live in the UK and 1.8 of those already have acquired the rights

necessary to have permanently to remain but we are suggesting that

for the remaining ones, including those who have a customs made permit

to leave to remain which is fast tracked, capped in terms of cost of

first passport and a date for qualifying for that is when you

trigger Article 50. Is it smart negotiating? On negotiations, your

facts, the facts are the legal rights which EU citizens got which a

lot of UK citizens have already got in France and Spain have to be

respected. You also set the tone of the negotiations and I think it's

important from my point of view that Theresa May goes in there and says

we're outward looking, welcoming country, and we make the first move

and expect from you to make the same thing. You expect some sort of

reciprocal arrangement and response but is it a risk worth taking

because it is a risk, isn't it, that they don't reciprocate like the

like? Given, from what I understand, the intervention Angela Merkel, a

lot of EU member states have already started to argue for that, but they

are hoping that this council meeting at the weekend and reach an

agreement, so it's a bit like the British future report which brought

together levers and remain as from all but the parties and the trade

unions and insert it directors. I think we can actually make that

consensus but someone has to start and when it comes to people I think

it should be as. You obviously see it as a bridge in that sense to

perhaps set the tone for opening negotiations but why don't we just

wait until Article 50 is triggered? It's not long now until formal

negotiations start and perhaps the tone should be more businesslike?

In the run-up to the triggering, I want the Home Office to streamline

some of its mechanisms, actually be ready for that. Do you agree? I

would rather we went to this position. I represent a constituency

that has a lot of scientific research. I can't emphasise enough

the amount of insecurity that has been engendered by the Leave vote.

Having said that, I understand the Prime Minister but opposition, which

is to say, you can't make a concession without a concession from

the other side and I think if we followed diesel's policy, tempted

though I am, we've already seen the increase that has happened in the

last few months. -- Gisela Stuart's policy. You are effectively saying,

if you come over now, you can get permission to stay in the UK. I

think an eye for an eye made the whole world blind and somebody needs

to step up to the plate. We're not talking about numbers, we are

talking about the boys and my son's class and his mum and dad and what

it means to them. We cannot use people as bargaining chips and from

what I've heard, when the Polish by Melissa came here and from what I've

heard of other European leaders, where lots of their people live

here, they are desperate to hear this from the UK. -- Polish Prime

Minister. The longer we treat people as a bargaining chip, the more shame

is brought our country. Let's move on to the Home Office in trade. The

European arrest warrant featured strongly in the campaign. Police

chiefs say it speed up extraditions but it does mean foreign countries

can extradite British citizens. Is that difficult to square with taking

back control? We need to negotiate a strong extradition protocol, as we

have with the United States and Canada. Is about strong? People have

criticised the one that's been done with the United States. The European

arrest warrant had its problems because it allowed for people being

extradited from the United Kingdom for crimes which were not crimes in

the UK. That wasn't very happy state. How many people are we

talking about? I think one is too much. The principle of the entire

Home Office in trade... They have to have some principles on which they

approach this and I think the first principle has to be, just because it

has the word Europe and it does not mean it is bound to the ECJ and the

jurisdiction of that court and that is how you peel things. That's what

needs to be looked at because we're not going to be under the

jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice so anything that flows

from that, we won't be part of. In 2014 Theresa May said that if we

opted out of the arrest warrant, British criminals will be able to

hop on the Eurostar or fly to Spain sake of the knowledge we wouldn't be

able to get them back or prosecute them. So isn't it dangerous to play

politics with the sort of things? That depends on what you put in its

place, just as you wouldn't say that any criminal can hop on an aeroplane

and go to United States and we can't extradite them... You come to

different agreements which are perfectly possible and the

independent commission said it is perfectly possible to do that.

Things change but that does not mean that they get worse. They may not

get worse but I think it is about the loss, perhaps, of information of

intelligence is what the critics would say, people like Ed Vaizey. If

you look Europol, last month the UK opted to remain a member on a

temporary basis at least until we leave. The Government was warned it

could lose vital intelligence unless it did so. So should we remain a

member once we be the EU? Europol is under a duty to reach an agreement

with the whole number of countries which are not currently part of the

EU and when it comes to intelligence sharing, we are a massive net

contributor to that intelligence in the European intelligence sphere.

They would really damage themselves to cut us out because we are giving

more to them than we get back. But I thought that was the whole point of

Leave, you wanted to leave these things and take back control. You

didn't necessarily want to be part of these agencies, I take your point

about the name, and now you are saying you do. These agencies aren't

based on the European Union. They are European wide and you take back

control by taking back your laws and making the decision... Europol is

the EU's law enforcement agency. You can opt in and a lot of other people

opt in. But the vote to leave was to leave and it was to leave, in your

mind, the single market and things like the customs union and in other

people's mines, it would be to leave all the agencies that are associated

and represent the EU, otherwise why did we believe? You are associating

the decision to leave with drawing up the drawbridge and saying we will

no longer take part in any of these. These are the things where we choose

and there is no automaticity and no universal jurisdiction for the court

of justice. That is what Leave and. Does that mean the same to you or

does it mean we are going to opt back into many of the things we were

a member of when we were in the EU? I assume we will opt back in. That's

not necessarily a criticism of the Brexit position because underlying

the Brexit position is what Gisela is saying, which is that it is a

choice for the UK but choice goes both ways and we have to rely on our

European partners. Certainly, I remember Theresa May, when she was

Home Secretary during this campaign, putting security front and centre as

part of our membership of the EU so I would want to see things like the

European arrest warrant, which makes it much easier for us to get

criminals back to the UK for trial and, obviously, Europol, where

clearly the intelligence sharing is absolutely vital, being very much on

the table with us looking for reasons to stay. But it is

accountable to the European Parliament, as well as national

parliaments, Europol, so if we maintain those close ties, won't we

be subject to European laws? That would be the nature of how you opted

to those negotiations and a lot of the intelligence sharing, whether it

is defence cooperation, have almost been bilateral. They have not been

on a European wide basis. Let's talk about... Gisela Stuart

mentioned that we have, to some extent, the upper hand when it comes

to intelligence, partly because the main intelligence relationships with

countries outside the EU. So, actually, if we maintain those

relationships, the EU will still want to have that sort of contact

with us. Are we in a more advantageous position? Time will

tell, whether we are in a more advantageous position. I don't think

that Theresa May especially, as our Prime Minister, who has been groomed

by her experience at the Home Office, is going to agree to

anything that would put the UK in a more risky position, is the truth. I

think she's terrible on other things. On safety, I think that's

pretty much bread and butter. I think it would be incredibly

shocking if other European countries came and said, "Sorry, we don't care

about you being as safe, those bilateral agreements that we all had

before, sorry, we're going to, because you are leaving Europe, you

can't have the information that might save people in your country".

I think that's unlikely. Let's talk about one other issue, slightly

different, but still in the Home Office in trade, which is the colour

of the passports. It wasn't a joke! Do you think they should go back to

the old colour? I have a real problem because my first passport

was green and after that it became whatever it is now. The Government

can decide whatever colour it wishes. I think what really bothers

people is to make sure that whatever passport they have now is valid

until it expires and they don't incur any extra costs. Is this a

burning issue for you? The minister said the Government is considering

potential changes. Why do people keep saying it was blue? In my

memory, it was black. I never have about possible because I was too

young and I was on my parents' passport and when I had one was

either a Brown card to go on a school trip or a red passport.

Nobody has ever raised it with me on the doorstep. The day someone says,

"This red passport has made me feel like I just don't belong here any

more," is the day that I will campaign for a new colour passport.

Until that day comes, I shall not give a toss what colour our

passports are. That's very parliamentary speaker on the Daily

Politics! What about you? Do you give a monkey's about the colour? I

quite like the passport at the moment. What should please the

Brexiteers is that clearly what will happen is that the words European

Union, which have been on the front of our passport, will disappear and

that should be enough for them. Maybe they'll send out special

maroon stickers because I've just renewed my passport and it is valid

for ten years and I will need a little sticker to blank out the

European Union. I'm not paying for another one! You could have a

special sticker made for you! Gisela Stuart, you don't need a passport to

come onto the programme. Yet! That might be down to you, of course!

Let's take a look at what the next few days have in store in the

political week ahead. Chancellor Philip Hammond

will be giving evidence to the Treasury Select Committee

this afternoon, with reports that ministers are considering allowing

councils to increase council tax The Prime Minister will also

announce today that the UK will become one of the first

countries to adopt an internationally recognised

definition of anti-Semitism in order Half a million rail

passengers face disruption on Tuesday, on the first of three

days of strike action The dispute is over the role

of conductors on trains. Also on Tuesday, Labour's

Shadow Brexit Secretary, Keir Starmer, will be giving

a speech on his party's priorities His opposite number

David Davis will also be speaking on Wednesday,

as he makes his first appearance On Thursday, Defence Secretary

Michael Fallon will host a summit with the US

Defence Secretary Ash Carter and representatives from 15 other

countries focused on countering And in Holyrood,

the Scottish Government will also present their draft

Budget for 2017-18. are the Guardian's Holly Watt,

and Jason Groves of the Daily Mail. Welcome to both of you. Holly, on

social care, it's been in the news quite a lot recently, the chief

executive of Care England has described the system is a house of

cards that could topple at any moment. Widen the Chancellor cover

it in his Autumn Statement, in your view? I think social care is one of

those issues that affect absolutely everyone. Everyone knows people who

are going into care homes, will have to go into care homes, have family

members in care homes. This is one of those things that need to be

handled on a cross-party basis but there's been quite a long period of

people scoring political points backwards and forwards. Before the

2010 election, Andrew Lansley, Norman Lamb and Andy Burnham try to

sit down and think of how to resolve care homes on the problems within

but that got shipwrecked with a Conservative Party election brochure

and since then, there has been a long, ongoing attempt to resolve it,

culminating in the Autumn Statement and it not being mentioned. How much

pressure is the Government under to deal with this now? I think they're

under a lot of pressure and you can see why because an answer to your

question about why it didn't appear in the Autumn Statement, I think the

reason is that some people in Number Ten thought, we are not going to put

up council tax, we are just not going to do it. I think the fact

that they are now contemplating it shows you the kind of pressure

they're under, not just from the health sector, where there is a

serious backlog building up in the NHS, also from local authorities,

but from Tory MPs. Tory MPs are lobbying the Chancellor and Mrs May

about this because they are seeing what is happening in their own

communities and I think that's why, reluctantly, they are going to

sanction some kind of, probably temporary, increasing council tax to

keep the system on its feet while they look at longer-term reforms. It

may be that we hear something later this week. Apparently. If we return

to the issue of Brexit, Holly, according to the House of Lords EU

committee, it is Brexit week. It feels like it's been Brexit week

ever since June 23 but we are going to be hearing from David Davis at

the Brexit select committee on Thursday. Will we hear anything new?

Hopefully! Lots of people are asking... Kier Starmer Astra

detailed analysis of how Brexiters going to happen last week and a lot

of people are hoping David Davis is going to say more. Clearly, the

Prime Minister has said that they can't put too much out there because

that would damage their ability to negotiate with the EU but they are

hoping that we will hear more. There are a series of reports coming out

of the House of Lords this week, and that is six big parliamentary

reports so it is clear there is so much detail that needs to be

resolved. The arguments go on, Jason, about a hard and soft Brexit

and Labour's position has been unclear, according to some of the

Labour Party itself. The shadow Brexit secretary Kier Starmer is

going to be making a speech tomorrow on Labour's priorities for the

negotiations. Do you think they've got a clear enough position? Could

you tell us? I don't think anyone could tell you. Hopefully, Kier

Starmer will clear things up a bit tomorrow. The problem is, every time

he does, somebody else, usually John McDonell, pops up and says something

contrary. Kier Starmer will say it is a disaster to leave the single

market and Brexiters all been handled very badly and then the

Shadow Chancellor will say, actually, it's a fantastic

opportunity. Jeremy Corbyn will talk about the bits of the EU that aren't

popular, such as free movement and immigration, and will not really be

too fussed about the single market. I hope we do get some clarity from

Labour because it is hurting them. Attested in Richmond and is probably

hurt them in Sleaford, whether just Rowden in fourth place. -- it hurt

them in Richmond. I don't want to go back to the trouser story per se but

if we read into the reaction from Fiona Hill, Theresa May's chief of

staff, in terms of the texts she sent on the public spat that has

emerged, what do you think it actually says about Theresa May's

Number Ten operation? Lots of people have raised questions

about the management of the Prime Minister's office and these abrupt

text messages which emerged this weekend. It makes it clear they got

a brusque way of managing. We saw that last week with Boris Johnson

and the issues over his comments on Yemen. They have a very harsh way of

managing things at times not causing people to be quite angry. All right,

thank you both very much. Let's return to social care. Ed Vaizey,

it's lost almost a tenth of its budget since 2010, more than 5000

care beds had been lost in the past 18 months. More people are growing

old that the care they need and by 2020 more than a million other

people will be over the age of 75. Is the system on the verge of

collapse? I would not go that far but it clearly needs to be

addressed. My County Council, when we had 2% added to the preset,

founded welcome and I know social care has enabled us to live longer,

good thing. We are introducing a national living wage, good thing,

but putting pressure on costs. It is doubling. Local budgets have reduced

significantly. Who's fault is that? The last Labour government. Of

course, yeah! I'm inclined to comment on what the situation is at

the moment and if you are saying, yes, it's partly to do with a

reduction of local authority budgets, clearly the fact were

having a debate about allowing councils to increase it is a

recognition that council budgets are... But it clearly not enough

also why wasn't something done about it in the Autumn Statement? I'm not

a member of the government. Should he have addressed it? Something

needs to be addressed, clearly, so let's see what comes up in terms of

giving councils of flexibility they need. Labour also feel it a bit much

to dump it on council tax. It's ridiculous to do that especially if

you come from a large authority like Birmingham. Where would you get the

money from them? The government should increase the grounds they

give to them. Cancels like mine, are different to the ones Ed get his

resources from full that they can't raise the same amount of money from

council tax. It relies heavily on government grants already full

support and show will get a week for care homes for the elderly people

whereas in Birmingham it is 400. That is completely unsustainable.

There is a need for the government to recognise that, when we invest in

infrastructure, all the money they gave away in the Autumn Statement,

sometimes infrastructure is people and there is a massive

infrastructure which needs to be built up in social care. Would you

be prepared to put up general taxation? Yes, I think we have got

to look at this and people every week, as an MP, you get letters

saying, I don't want to sell my house to look after my mum, I don't

want to sell her house. People got to recognise this is going to cost.

People need to pay for it however the government invested billions in

infrastructure in shovel ready projects in the Autumn Statement

also why on earth that may invest in the infrastructure like child care,

social care? Just to make it clear, you would be prepared to back a call

for increasing income tax, central taxation, to fund social care? Yes.

That's clear. The government has allowed the precept to increase and

pulled budgets were cancelled and health authorities can pull their

budgets. I want to take issue with Jeff depicting my County Council as

sitting on a pile of cash. But there are richer and poorer cancels. We

get less money for education and Birmingham. You accept the point

Jess makes that if you laid to the council tax, in more deprived

communities, they struggle to make the same amount of money as a richer

cancels. I'm not saying you're sitting on a pilot cash but which of

them Jess's. I would not accept that. Would you like me to send you

the figures? You have different pressures in Birmingham than we have

in Oxfordshire. The largest numbers of burnable children. Let her talk.

Have you got figures to show that his council is better off than

yours? I did a report on every single Council and the country

asking what their pay rates were for nursing home care, social care, and

the disparity between... In Tory councils, twice as much money in

Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Walsall, Solihull, which is next door

bordering my constituency gets about ?100 more. My old people deserve

just as much as your old people. At the moment, the way the government

is creating, it's going to create a worst postcode lottery. It's based

on formulas which have been around for a very long time. Let's change

it. Rural councils face higher costs in terms of transport and education

are lobbying for more money. They compare itself to Birmingham and

they will show figures where they are losing out to authorities like

Birmingham so you can blame... We are talking about social careful

stop there is a fundamental agreement more money needs to be

going through. Should go through the precept? If you are paying far

higher percentage of income in cancer fact that if you are wealthy.

The just about managing class, the group of people Theresa May really

wants... A lot of people can't afford to pay their council tax

because this government has raised the threshold significantly for

people in terms of income tax so people on... So why don't you make

it income tax rather than council tax? It would be more progressive.

There was a cap suggested on the amount an individual should have to

spend on their social care. And to do a lot to the big report a few

years ago and it was shelved. -- Andrew Dill not. The Treasury came

back with ?72,000 in the end. It has not happened for them it was due to

happen around now. Should there be a cab and what should it be? People

don't want to be in a position where they are going into care having to

effectively sell their house. People quite rightly regard that as an

asset they've built up. I certainly think the government should consider

a cap. 35,000? 75,000? It's something which needs to have a

discussion. I'm not going to sell this programme what I'm going to fly

off the top of my head. Ten years ago, we've opposed a system of

social insurers where people could take out insurance to cover their

care costs and that is another element. Do you think there will be

agreement, a decision, an announcement? As a backbencher, I

get my news from the newspapers, not from any special briefing. But

clearly, there is a move not to solve this problem, because it needs

a much wider debate. Entrenched the problem. Funding is definitely on

the agenda. It's the official edited transcript

of what goes on in Parliament. It's published daily and details

the momentous occasions and the quieter moments

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the Speaker's chair. They are the reporters of Hansard,

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searching the benches for anything that people would say that you need

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of the debate they made notes on and then type it up,

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so if I'm doing a five-minute turn, which is a chunk of debate

that we report, I have 45 minutes to get that done

and onto the sub-editor's desk. I'll then have a few minutes

before I have to go back Hansard has been the official record

of Parliament since 1909. But for hundreds of years before

that, there were competing journals So it's interesting standing

here seeing this huge row of books. If we look at the years they cover,

we can see here they start And we have to walk quite a long way

before we then get to the Battle of Waterloo and even further before

we get to the First World War and it's only by this point

when I've walked really quite a long way that we get to the 1940s

in the Second World War. way that we get to the 1940s

and the Second World War. These days, most of our customers

access Hansard in digital form. In those days, the print

run was quite big. When I joined Hansard 20 years ago,

there were still many thousands And also, all these lovely bound

volumes were sent out to all the libraries in the country

as a way of distributing them. These days we produce several

hundred daily copies which members still like to use in the chamber

and very, very few of A lot of work in recent years has

been aimed at making our digital House of Commons business

is available to read on the Hansard And you can search for your

own MP, for example. And that's quicker, of course,

than sitting through hours I'm only asking you this because I

went to Mac and first last time forth if anything you've said that

you've regretted or had changed? I've had the same thing changed on

two different occasions for the because I'm from Birmingham and when

I say the word number, if I talk about my mum, being a mum in the

House of Commons, they always write it M U M and we spell it mum. It a

noisy when they sanitise my regional accent so I check because it was

maiden speech. I said, I would never say mum, I say mum. I got them to

change it. You can have things changed. You can reprint it?

Potentially. She's a troublemaker with Hansard. What about you?

Anything you've helped Hansard didn't record? The joke is always

that you can make any kind of announcement you like in the House

of Commons if you wanted kept secret. Is that true? Anything I

found this programme I will be trolled from Italy end of the day on

Twitter about how awful I been. If I made a debate in Parliament, where I

messed up, and was useless, no one would say anything. Has that

happened a lot? Whenever I speak in there, it ends up in the paper. I'm

incredibly dull in Parliament, that's true.

LAUGHTER I didn't want to save. Hansard is

recording this. Everybody else on Twitter is, so you can rest assured

it will be there. Is the standard of food served up

in prisons contributing to problems That's the view of Lucy Vincent,

a writer and campaigner who says meals in prisons are often

substandard and need When I first started researching

food in UK prisons I didn't And, although it's a far cry

from Dickensian porridge, it turns out prison food is more

similar to school dinners before Jamie Oliver brought

about change 11 years ago. Think excess carbohydrates

and a severe lack of What I wasn't prepared to discover

was the significant impact low quality food is having

on the inmates of our At a time of national chaos

in the UK prison system, we are feeding some of society's

most vulnerable and mentally unstable individuals food that's

having a much more severe impact on their well-being

than we might realise. A recent report by HM Inspectorate

of Prisons has revealed significant failings in prison food

across the board and record Only 29% of prisoner survey

respondents described the food Food being served below temperature,

lack of communal dining due to staff shortages and low nutritional

quality all crop up continuously. Last year, an inmate at HMP

Northumberland staged a protest on a high railing after receiving

a cold meal. A decade ago, the country saw

the effect better nutrition, less additives and more fresh food

had on schoolchildren. Pupils got on better,

behaved well and, as a result, Why can't we do the same

in our country's prisons? The report also noted a lack

of opportunities for prisoners to cook for themselves or to learn

catering skills in prison kitchens. These activities could aid

rehabilitation and improve their Decent nutrition has the power

to positively impact everything from self-esteem to health,

learning and development. When you are dealing

with individuals who are likely to have struggled with these issues

more than most, I believe this becomes a matter

of much greater importance. Lucy Vincent is here,

and we've also been joined by the Conservative

MP Stewart Jackson. Lucy, some people would say we spent

enough on prisoners. Each prisoner Place costs around ?3000 a year. Do

we need to spend more? At this stage, what I'm asking for is not

more money, necessarily. You can eat and cook well with not much money

and at the moment, prison spending per head per day is around ?2 and I

do think that you can eat well with that kind of money. I think what

Jamie Oliver did in schools, he had around 37p, I know it was ten years

ago, per head per day, and he proved that. It was difficult but he did

it. What do you say, Stewart Jackson? I'm slightly sympathetic

but I do think there are bigger priorities in prison. One of them is

violence, the other is the proliferation of drugs, mental

health problems, family breakdown and literacy and numeracy and

general education. These are all important issues which I would

suggest or a higher priority than issues around nutrition. Lee

Stevenson says that if you take the examples of schools and the food

that kids were eating, fewer additives meant better behaviour. --

Lucy Vincent says. Let's get into perspective that this hasn't been a

major issue by international comparisons, the quality of

nutrition, the quality of food served in our prisons. Either

visited some of the toughest prisons in the world. I was in San Miguel

prison in Santiago in Chile when 81 people were killed in a riot. It was

Dickensian. By comparison, the UK has a very good prison standard. You

have chosen the extreme, one might say! If we keep to the idea of

trying to improve, if that's what Lucy is suggesting, the quality of

food will improve the experience for prisoners in jail... The thing is,

Lucy, would it have that much of an impact? Would you get your inmates

eating that nice plate of fruit and vegetables? A major say, I don't

like it. From the prisoners and ex-prisoners I've spoken to, one of

the main things they crave inside things like salads, and one woman I

spoke to, when she came out of prison, she went straight to

Morrisons, bought a salad and chicken breast and dated on the

train that because she hadn't had it for three years. Do you consider

having good food and decent food privilege or a necessity? Obviously,

it's a necessity but we have to strike the balance between what

people expect in a prison, which is not cordon bladder, high-end

cuisine, basically, because taxpayers are paying for

incarcerating people. To get a custodial sentence these days, you

have to have committed quite a serious crime. What do you say to

that? I'm not pitching three course Michelin star meals. I'm talking

about fresh, healthy, simple, cheap food that they'll enjoy eating more

than they're eating at the moment but mainly to improve their

behaviour. Part of the report that I based my research on, they did a

study in prisons and they gave exactly the same food for a month

but they gave them some nutritional supplements, so things like vitamin

see that they may not have been getting from fresh fruit, and they

noticed a significant increase in better behaviour, lack of violence

and prisons were calmer and I think that is really interesting and that

was just nutritional supplements. They were still eating all the

carbs. I agree with that and I think that's a great project. What we need

to do is have more social investment bonds like in Doncaster and

Peterborough, where you tackle recidivism and you actually give a

fiscal incentive to keep people from coming back into prison. Nutrition

can be part of that project, funded by the third sector and government.

Labour did it and we did it and we need to roll that out a bit more but

what I am saying is that probably the priority, when resources are

very tight, our drugs and violence within prisons. But this isn't about

costing any more money. That's Lucy's point. It doesn't cost any

more to present the sort of food that people might want to eat, the

sort of food that might calm people down, that might lead to a reduction

in violence or drug smuggling or the desire to commit more crime within

prison. We've got to trust prison governors as well. I think Stuart is

being remarkably emollient on this show. I suspect he had crushed

avocado on wholemeal bread for breakfast! Tofu! Are you not giving

us a true reflection of your views, Stewart Jackson? I do support Lucy's

point. I boarded a wider context it clearly, when you debate anything

like this, you have a binary debate, soft on crime and prisoners, to the

redemption debate. When Michael Gove was just a secretary, he had the

support of the papers because he had the credibility of being a

centre-right politician, saying, we got to get out of this mentality of

just locking people up and throwing away the key because they are going

to come back into society. That's your mentality, isn't it? The more

skills they have an game when they are in prison, the more likely they

will be integrated into society and the less it will cost us on the

better it will be for them. I agree with all that. I do think, though,

that we've got to trust prison governors and not throw the key

away. I do believe, though, that you've actually got to understand

that people believe that people are in prison, taxpayers, for a reason.

And that's the point. You go to prison, you've committed a crime, in

many cases are very serious crime, you lose personal freedoms and

choice and that means you don't get great food either. One person I

respect to who had served a short sentence summed it up really well.

She said, you go to prison to get your freedom taken away from you.

You do not go to prison to be starved or have your health

compromise. Is that happening? From the research I've come across, there

has been a significant decrease in food quality in prisons over the

years and it is having a much bigger impact than we realise. We do not

want to see people starved or feeling they are being starved order

prized? Let's move onto anecdote -- from anecdote... I don't think Her

Majesty is in prisons has found that degree of nutritional problems in

prison. You've got to see it in a wider context of teaching people to

read and write, giving them self worth, letting them work and earn

money. Just briefly, Jess Phillips, one of the issues Stewart Jackson

wrote about was the smuggling of drugs, drones being used of fruit

and veg going to stop that? Of course not on their own, but I've

worked in prisons for many years, I ran a female offenderss' service and

contrary to what has been said, lots of people are in there completely

nonserious things, such as their children not going to school and

women on short sentences. They're all sorts of health and locations

for those people that definitely need to be considered, about whether

prisoners the right place for those sentences to go ahead but also,

these people need to be looked after within the same degree that we would

also expect them to be punished. Thank you both very much. It's

nearly lunchtime! Now, what to put on top

of your Christmas tree is not normally a decision

that involves politics. But if you think an angel or a Star

of David is a bit passe, and you're also a fan

of Jeremy Corbyn, then you might A crochet satirist -

that's crochet, by the way, not knitting - has made

an alternative Christmas tree topper in the form

of the Labour leader. It's said to be the perfect ornament

for the "festive atheist socialist". But it's been selling

so well that the artist - who, as you might have guessed,

is a supporter of Jeremy Corbyn - says she won't now be

able to process any more Here's the US

President-elect Donald Trump. But he's a "voodoo pincushion",

which is a bit less festive. There's also the former leader

of Ukip, Nigel Farage. This one is, of course,

David Cameron. And the former Education

Secretary Michael Gove. The former Work and Pensions

Secretary Iain Duncan Smith. Now, the artist, Kat Stiff,

actually met Jeremy Corbyn And she managed to give him

a crochet doll of himself - it looks like he was happy

to receive it. She's here with us now. What gave

you the idea? Which idea? Of crocheting politicians, even the

ones you like. I woke up one morning and put on the radio and Michael

Gove had said something about the last straw was when he was trying to

reduce the summer holidays, and the level of frustration I felt was not

very healthy and I thought, how can I deal with this? I was crocheting

dolls of Poirot on various things so I thought I would crochet a pin

Gove's face and then I posted on social media and a lot of people...

It got a good response. We have noticed that you have crocheted nice

dolls of left-wing politicians, those who support, and pin cushions

of the right wing once. If someone wanted an order the other way round,

would you do it? Ultimately, someone could buy the Jeremy Corbyn and they

could stick pins in it if they want to. That is very true. Does it take

you a long time to make each one? About three or four hours. They're

beautiful! What's along the front? We've got Nigel Farage but he is not

a pincushion. I'd have him as my pincushion! Can you tell us who the

others are? Michael Gove and David Cameron. You want Michael Gove?

Remember when Peter Mandelson... Hello, Michael. Are you enjoying the

backbenchers? I thought your programme with Fern Britton

yesterday was very good. Have you rehearsed this? About Ron Jeremy

Corbyn, which is your favourite? Er... Jeremy Corbyn is the only nice

one I make! Do you make any women? Not yet but I'm going to do Theresa

May after Christmas. Valid point! Jess Phillips, one of the most

prominent Labour backbenchers who could possibly find. What is the

difference between crochet and knitting? Crochet is one hook and is

a series of knots, whereas knitting is two needles and I don't know how

to knit at all. They are completely different. When did you start

crocheting? About four years ago. It's amazing! Would that be at the

top of your Christmas tree? I would love to buy this but you probably

don't sell to Tories. Michael Gove ordered one! I didn't know what to

do. They ordered it on your website? What was the editor? They gave me

their address, which I thought was bowled! Don't give that out on the

show! It was in the Metro or something and I got an order from

Michael Gove. I thought, is this real? And it was! But you are busy

now until the New Year, so you would have to get your orders in now for

next year. There is one there but it is not for you. Is that a display

copy? Thank you for bringing them in. Listen, you!

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

which of these cards is not from a political leader?

What is the correct answer? I know the ones on my left. The Dove and

Downing Street are Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn. I'm going for the

squirrel. That is actually from Danny Alexander, the Liberal

Democrat former Chief Secretary to the Treasury, and it was a Christmas

card because it was a rude, but was made by Harriet Harman. We will have

a quick look at Christmas cards. They will go across the screen at

the end. These are some of the cards that Theresa May has received and is

going to send out. They were done by schoolchildren for her especially.

She picked three different designs and the dove of peace was Jeremy

Corbyn's card. That's it. Thank you very much. That was the Lib Dems.

Tim Farron!