09/12/2016 Daily Politics


09/12/2016

Andrew Neil is joined by journalists Toby Young and Polly Toynbee to discuss the outcome of the Sleaford by-election and foreign secretary Boris Johnson's performance.


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Transcript


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Welcome to the Daily Politics. on BBC Two.

:01:00.:00:59.

The Conservatives secure a commanding win in the Sleaford

:01:00.:00:59.

by-election while Labour slump to fourth place.

:01:00.:00:59.

We'll hear from the Labour MP who says his party is heading

:01:00.:01:22.

the crowd-funded campaign which wants to shake

:01:23.:01:23.

I thought they were quite shaken up already.

:01:24.:01:40.

And with us for the whole of the programme today,

:01:41.:01:44.

the Guardian columnist Polly Toynbee and Toby Young, associate

:01:45.:01:46.

So, another by-election last night, just one week after the Lib Dems won

:01:47.:01:55.

Richmond Park with a huge swing from the Conservatives.

:01:56.:01:57.

Unlike a week ago, though, last night's result

:01:58.:01:59.

The Conservatives held on to Sleaford and North Hykeham

:02:00.:02:02.

Their candidate, Caroline Johnson, received just over 17,500 votes.

:02:03.:02:12.

Second place went to Ukip with just under 4,500 a majority

:02:13.:02:22.

But the big news of the night was that Labour were pushed

:02:23.:02:29.

from second into fourth place, behind the Liberal Democrats,

:02:30.:02:31.

Here's the Conservative victor, Caroline Jonson, speaking

:02:32.:02:37.

I look forward to strengthening the Government's majority in parliament,

:02:38.:02:46.

so that Theresa May, our Prime Minister, can get

:02:47.:02:50.

on with the job of triggering Article 50, leaving

:02:51.:02:52.

the European Union, and building a country and

:02:53.:02:54.

That's the new Conservative MP for Sleaford.

:02:55.:03:07.

We did ask the Labour Party for an interview, but no

:03:08.:03:09.

We've been joined by the Labour backbencher, David Winnick.

:03:10.:03:12.

Welcome to the programme. This was a election, a safe Tory seat, you

:03:13.:03:24.

expected to lose it, Labour slipped from second to fourth, but is it

:03:25.:03:30.

really that disappointing? Yes, it is humiliating, it is a set like

:03:31.:03:32.

Richmond last week which we have never won, that includes 1997. But

:03:33.:03:41.

we were second in the general election, and to be beaten into

:03:42.:03:46.

fourth place by the Liberal Democrats was humiliating. What do

:03:47.:03:51.

you mean when you talk about a bunker mentality at the highest

:03:52.:03:56.

levels of the Labour Party? What I mean is there are those who don't

:03:57.:04:02.

seem to grasp that if you have rallies of the faithful loyalists,

:04:03.:04:07.

activists on the rest of it, that is fine, but you can lose touch with

:04:08.:04:15.

the real world, and my fear is that we are not in touch of ordinary

:04:16.:04:17.

people anywhere to the extent that is necessary that could make a real

:04:18.:04:23.

impact in the country. In what ways are you not in touch? We are not in

:04:24.:04:29.

touch because day in and day out, you can take this as a commercial if

:04:30.:04:34.

you like, everyday, Labour MPs put the case for what is happening in

:04:35.:04:38.

the country, how many people, millions, suffering as a result of

:04:39.:04:41.

the cuts, Labour councillors up and down the country doing their duty,

:04:42.:04:46.

and the reason why they were elected in the first place. But we are not

:04:47.:04:50.

perceived by so many people as acting in their interests. And that

:04:51.:04:57.

produces... A sense that you are not in touch with ordinary voters? Yes.

:04:58.:05:03.

Polly, the results are not great for Labour, pretty good for the Tories.

:05:04.:05:08.

It is OK free Ukip, I would suggest. It is pretty good for the Lib Dems,

:05:09.:05:12.

very bad for Labour, I think that would be fair to say. And as we came

:05:13.:05:16.

on air, YouGov announced its latest poll which I think we'll be in the

:05:17.:05:20.

Times tomorrow, and it has the Tories now at 42%, pretty - them,

:05:21.:05:27.

but more interestingly, Labour down to 25. Ukip 12, Lib Dems 11,

:05:28.:05:35.

statistically even stevens. But Labour at 25, it highlights what

:05:36.:05:40.

David Winick is saying about the by-election result. At least they

:05:41.:05:45.

didn't lose their deposit in the by-election, which they did in the

:05:46.:05:48.

last one, which was an extra humiliation. I think it really is

:05:49.:05:53.

time for Labour Party members to look at the facts in the face, not

:05:54.:05:56.

what they wish they were but what they are, and however much people

:05:57.:06:01.

might admire Jeremy Corbyn for allsorts of admirable qualities,

:06:02.:06:06.

just realised that you have a fairly short window as a leader to

:06:07.:06:09.

establish a reputation, and when people decide it is not you, you

:06:10.:06:13.

don't look like leadership material, they don't change their mind. I

:06:14.:06:17.

think the Government is going to be in real trouble within the next two

:06:18.:06:21.

years, I think the negotiations will go badly and all sorts of people

:06:22.:06:26.

will face up to what it really means, the sacrifices. Getting

:06:27.:06:33.

sovereignty back will mean such heavy sacrifices, mostly for the

:06:34.:06:36.

same people who are experiencing the cuts at the moment, and Labour will

:06:37.:06:40.

not dare to say, we said this all along. Not a great result for you.

:06:41.:06:52.

Sharer of the vote fell by 2%, and it is share that matters when

:06:53.:07:00.

turnout is low. I would guess the Government, given they were more

:07:01.:07:04.

frightened of Ukip then Labour, they will be quite happy with this

:07:05.:07:11.

result? I think it does show that in constituencies where conservatives

:07:12.:07:15.

are likely to win, Ukip probably won't do terribly well, because a

:07:16.:07:18.

lot of the people who would vote Ukip if they thought the alternative

:07:19.:07:22.

was between Labour and Ukip would happily plump for a Conservative

:07:23.:07:27.

candidate and not risk dividing the opposition vote. The difficulty

:07:28.:07:30.

Labour faces is in constituencies in its northern heartlands where labour

:07:31.:07:35.

is first but in constituencies that voted to leave with a Remain MP, Ed

:07:36.:07:42.

Miliband, Tristram Hunt and others, that is going to be the issue. All

:07:43.:07:48.

of the issues are seen through the prism of exit. It usually ends up

:07:49.:07:54.

some way coming back to Brexit. If you are a real Brexiteer and you are

:07:55.:08:01.

happy leaving the EU, you might vote Tory or Ukip. If you are angry with

:08:02.:08:06.

what is happening, and reluctant for it to happen, you might even want to

:08:07.:08:13.

stop it, you vote Lib Dem. Where does Labour fitting? It is a fair

:08:14.:08:17.

question, and we have to make our position clear. I was very much in

:08:18.:08:22.

favour of remain, not quite as fanatical as Polly, we disagreed

:08:23.:08:28.

over 30 years ago because she didn't do much service for the Labour Party

:08:29.:08:35.

then, but we won't talk about that. Toby was only in shorts then, let's

:08:36.:08:43.

not go back there. I think we have to honour the majority decision, and

:08:44.:08:46.

a feeling in the country among many people who voted leave, who takes

:08:47.:08:52.

the view that we are ambiguous or not willing to accept a majority

:08:53.:08:58.

decision. I disagree with that majority decision, and I am very

:08:59.:09:01.

much pleased that the vote in the House of Commons this week, we made

:09:02.:09:05.

it clear that we stand by what the Prime Minister said, that article 50

:09:06.:09:11.

will be implemented no later than the 31st of March. In many parts of

:09:12.:09:17.

the country, people who didn't normally vote in general elections

:09:18.:09:19.

let alone local elections certainly voted in the referendum, and if

:09:20.:09:25.

there is this cynical view that no one is taking any notice, we have

:09:26.:09:30.

been proved right, voting is a waste of time, we have to demonstrate...

:09:31.:09:40.

Let me just ask you this. What... Jeremy Corbyn won in 2015. He was

:09:41.:09:47.

challenged and one again. He is the leader. If you think this is a bad

:09:48.:09:54.

situation, how do you get out of it? Jeremy Hunt been re-elected. I never

:09:55.:10:00.

voted for him. But how do you get out of it? I remain broadly on the

:10:01.:10:07.

left, but he has been re-elected. We know that. How do you get out of it?

:10:08.:10:11.

He is going to lead us into the general election, and that was the

:10:12.:10:19.

decision of the party membership. I would say from that, you don't get

:10:20.:10:23.

out of it. That was the implication of that answer. I think it is quite

:10:24.:10:28.

clear that if you really mean that, if the Labour Party really means

:10:29.:10:32.

that, that Corbyn is still going to be leader in 2020, we are looking at

:10:33.:10:38.

catastrophe. We are looking at a serious wipe-out, which is terrible.

:10:39.:10:42.

The only way to get rid of Corbyn is if Labour loses a general election,

:10:43.:10:45.

and even that isn't guaranteed, and that is why Corbyn are supporting

:10:46.:10:48.

the article 50 Amendment, because they don't want to trigger a general

:10:49.:10:53.

election. It could be a long time until the general election unless

:10:54.:10:57.

the Prime Minister looks differently at the by-election last night.

:10:58.:11:01.

The question for today is who has been watching a basketball game

:11:02.:11:09.

Was it a) Time Person of the Year 2007, Vladimir Putin?

:11:10.:11:13.

b) Time Person of the Year 2016, Donald Trump?

:11:14.:11:16.

c) Time Person of the Year 2000 and 2004, George W Bush?

:11:17.:11:22.

At the end of the show, Toby and Polly will give

:11:23.:11:29.

I have utmost confidence in them! It has often been misplaced, of course!

:11:30.:11:38.

The Foreign Secretary is visiting Bahrain today only 24 hours

:11:39.:11:41.

after Downing Street said his views did not represent Government policy.

:11:42.:11:43.

The rebuke from Number 10 came after Boris Johnson said

:11:44.:11:46.

the UK's ally, Saudi Arabia, was "playing proxy wars"

:11:47.:11:48.

Boris Johnson made his first major speech as Foreign Secretary last

:11:49.:11:57.

week, but his first five months in the post haven't

:11:58.:12:01.

The Italian Economics Minister accused him of being "a bit

:12:02.:12:11.

insulting" last month after Mr Johnson reportedly told him

:12:12.:12:13.

that Italy would sell less prosecco if the UK wasn't given access

:12:14.:12:16.

The Foreign Secretary has also had to endure jokes

:12:17.:12:19.

When we came to Birmingham this week, some big questions

:12:20.:12:28.

Are we ready for the effort it will take to see it through?

:12:29.:12:36.

Can Boris Johnson stay on message for a full four days?

:12:37.:12:45.

Chancellor Philip Hammond joined in, teasing Mr Johnson

:12:46.:13:09.

about his failed campaign for the Tory leadership campaign

:13:10.:13:12.

Tory MP Jake Berry said recently that the Foreign Secretary had been

:13:13.:13:22.

the victim of "sniping from the comfort of Whitehall",

:13:23.:13:24.

Foreign Office mandarins have also reportedly asked ministers to stop

:13:25.:13:31.

calling Mr Johnson "Boris" and instead refer to him

:13:32.:13:33.

But Boris was slapped down by Number 10 yesterday after he accused

:13:34.:13:43.

Saudi Arabia of engaging in "puppeteering and playing proxy

:13:44.:13:48.

The Prime Minister's spokesman said in response,

:13:49.:13:55.

"The Foreign Secretary's views are not the Government's position".

:13:56.:13:59.

Well, joining us now to discuss this further is someone who knows

:14:00.:14:02.

what it's like to be a Conservative Foreign Secretary -

:14:03.:14:04.

Welcome back to the programme. Is it sustainable for the Prime Minister

:14:05.:14:15.

to have a Foreign Secretary whose remarks regularly do not reflect

:14:16.:14:22.

Government policy? All ministers occasionally go off message, so

:14:23.:14:25.

these things are not unknown, and we mustn't get too excited. However, if

:14:26.:14:30.

it comes a serial activity, it becomes more controversial. And

:14:31.:14:35.

there are signs it is becoming a serial activity. We have had the

:14:36.:14:39.

customs union, he was slapped down for that. We have had him in this,

:14:40.:14:45.

several other areas where he has kind of gone off piste. Boris is a

:14:46.:14:52.

one-off character, he has got remarkable intelligence and ability,

:14:53.:14:56.

he has moderate views and is not a wild extremist. But he has made his

:14:57.:15:01.

reputation as a celebrity, and you cannot compare that with being a

:15:02.:15:07.

Foreign Secretary. Harold Macmillan was briefly Foreign Secretary, and

:15:08.:15:09.

he said that Foreign Minister is are either dull or dangerous. Boris

:15:10.:15:11.

Johnson is not dull. I watched him and his remarks on

:15:12.:15:23.

Saudi Arabia. He was not speaking as Foreign Secretary. He was speaking

:15:24.:15:28.

as a pundit. I could have made that remark but I am a journalist. He

:15:29.:15:34.

cannot speak as a pundit and be Foreign Secretary. That is right.

:15:35.:15:38.

The issue on this occasion is not whether what he said was reasonable

:15:39.:15:43.

or unreasonable, whether it was accurate or not accurate, it was not

:15:44.:15:49.

UK foreign policy. If Boris does not like current foreign policy in the

:15:50.:15:58.

Middle East, the Foreign Secretary has more power, influence, than

:15:59.:16:02.

anyone else in the United Kingdom to change foreign policy. Occasionally,

:16:03.:16:05.

when I had disagreements with John Major, which was very rare, I would

:16:06.:16:08.

have a private conversation with him. Occasionally I might have him

:16:09.:16:22.

agreeing with me and more of -- and usually I would agree with him. If

:16:23.:16:27.

people want to know what Britain's policy is, listen to what the Warren

:16:28.:16:33.

Secretary is saying is if he has his own reservations, he must keep them

:16:34.:16:36.

to himself. -- the Foreign Secretary. Because of Britain having

:16:37.:16:44.

a global foreign policy, and being a permanent member of the Security

:16:45.:16:48.

Council, that means the words of the Foreign Secretary, whoever it is

:16:49.:16:52.

common to carry more weight. There is a double problem. The first, the

:16:53.:17:02.

timing could not have been worse. Having lunch order sooner with the

:17:03.:17:07.

king of Saudi Arabia at the time, did not help. I think Boris Johnson

:17:08.:17:13.

can still get out of this drama if he can realise and permanently

:17:14.:17:17.

remind himself that when he speaks in public on any occasion he had to

:17:18.:17:22.

confine himself to foreign policy. If he does not like it, he is the

:17:23.:17:28.

person best place to try to change it. Boris Johnson can be his own

:17:29.:17:33.

worst enemy. We all know that. Even his Cabinet colleagues have ramped

:17:34.:17:41.

it up by making fun of saw examples of that. It adds to the narrative

:17:42.:17:44.

that perhaps, which is what the Labour Party line has been, this man

:17:45.:17:49.

is not fit to be Foreign Secretary. Is there a conspiracy to amplify his

:17:50.:17:58.

mistakes? I don't think so. I think he will survive. He will soldier on

:17:59.:18:04.

for quite a time stop what he said about Saudi Arabia fits the

:18:05.:18:09.

definition of a political gaffes, given by the American political

:18:10.:18:14.

commentator saying when a politician speaks the truth, especially if it

:18:15.:18:17.

is a truth they are not meant to say, one of the difficulties that

:18:18.:18:22.

Boris faces is one faced by all journalists, especially if they have

:18:23.:18:26.

earned bread-and-butter as columnists. As colonists you are

:18:27.:18:30.

paid to say something provocative and interesting each week. As a

:18:31.:18:35.

front-line senior politician you are expected to say something pretty

:18:36.:18:42.

dull. As a career politician, that comes as second nature. For him, he

:18:43.:18:54.

finds it very difficult to rein himself in a not say anything that

:18:55.:19:00.

is likely to be picked up. You could take the view this is quite

:19:01.:19:04.

refreshing custom he is saying something that many people think

:19:05.:19:10.

about Saudi Arabia. Counter to that is that these are uncertain times

:19:11.:19:15.

for Britain's position in the world. The rest of the world is looking at

:19:16.:19:20.

us to see what is the shape of our foreign policy in a Brexit

:19:21.:19:24.

environment. This sort of thing does not help. I would be delighted if we

:19:25.:19:28.

broke our relationship with the Saudis are no longer sell them ?3

:19:29.:19:33.

billion worth of weapons with which they are absolutely destroying

:19:34.:19:36.

civilians of the Yemen. I would be delighted if we spoke up against

:19:37.:19:41.

them. In particular, their particular extreme religious cult,

:19:42.:19:45.

which they have deliberately spread around the world, and is so

:19:46.:19:48.

dangerous, that will not happen. We're now going to be sending out

:19:49.:19:55.

Boris and Liam Fox on their knees, begging everyone around the world to

:19:56.:20:01.

make a trade deal to make up for the trade we have with Europe. We are

:20:02.:20:06.

going to be in no position to be making moral gestures. We have to

:20:07.:20:10.

stop those imperial fantasies. We are going to be in a very bad state.

:20:11.:20:16.

I do not see Boris as being the person who will make new friends for

:20:17.:20:20.

us all who will make a principled stand either. The Foreign Secretary

:20:21.:20:27.

ship was very much a second chance for Boris Johnson. He had been

:20:28.:20:32.

involved in this incredible car crash with Michael Gove, which they

:20:33.:20:38.

both seem to have had mutual assured destruction of their political

:20:39.:20:41.

careers. Out of the blue, the Prime Minister gives him a second chance.

:20:42.:20:45.

Are you surprised he has not grasped this with both hands and changed his

:20:46.:20:51.

ways? I think he has grasped this with both hands. He is a bright guy.

:20:52.:20:57.

He has known perfectly well that he has two curb his journalistic

:20:58.:21:06.

instincts. When you are 52, he is 52 now. He has spent his whole life is

:21:07.:21:11.

not having to behave in a restrictive way of that kind. He has

:21:12.:21:17.

created his reputation by his enthusiastic commentaries on various

:21:18.:21:22.

matters and he finds it incredibly difficult to resist saying something

:21:23.:21:27.

that he believes is stimulating and interesting, not realising, at that

:21:28.:21:30.

precise moment, the damage it is doing. And it has done damage. One

:21:31.:21:35.

factor is it would be very difficult for Theresa May to sack him. He

:21:36.:21:41.

would effectively of the opposition. But it would be a comment on her

:21:42.:21:46.

judgment to do it so soon. Knowing that, you has a bit more licence to

:21:47.:21:51.

say these things. You cannot be a sociopath in a job like that. You

:21:52.:21:58.

cannot be someone with no self-control. It is like when Donald

:21:59.:22:06.

Trump tried to excuse himself for the inappropriate remarks about

:22:07.:22:12.

women by saying he was younger then. He was only 54!

:22:13.:22:21.

This morning, peers have been debating -

:22:22.:22:23.

at times a little rancorously - a proposal that could reduce

:22:24.:22:25.

the size of the House of Lords by cutting the number

:22:26.:22:28.

A Private Member's Bill introduced by Labour's Lord Grocott

:22:29.:22:32.

suggests abolishing the by-elections that are used to fill

:22:33.:22:35.

vacancies when a hereditary peer dies or resigns.

:22:36.:22:43.

It is one of the anomalies of the House of Lords that the only people

:22:44.:22:50.

who are in some way elected are the hereditary peers.

:22:51.:22:52.

However, peers opposed to the idea could talk it out of time,

:22:53.:22:55.

and have tabled nine pages of amendments for the one-page bill.

:22:56.:23:01.

Yes, they do take themselves seriously.

:23:02.:23:04.

While Tony Blair's government cleared out most of the hereditary

:23:05.:23:06.

peers in 1999, they agreed that 92 would be allowed to remain

:23:07.:23:09.

When one of these 92 peers dies, or resigns, a by-election

:23:10.:23:17.

is held to replace them, and usually only hereditary peers

:23:18.:23:20.

of the same party are allowed to vote for the replacement.

:23:21.:23:30.

You see what I mean by restricted constituency.

:23:31.:23:35.

Lord Grocott's bill proposes abolishing by-elections and not

:23:36.:23:37.

filling any vacancies that arise, although the status of current

:23:38.:23:39.

With hereditary peers currently counting for one in every 11 peers,

:23:40.:23:45.

that could mean the upper chamber becomes smaller over time.

:23:46.:23:50.

However, this wouldn't necessarily follow, as the PM and the political

:23:51.:23:53.

parties can always recommend the creation of more peerages.

:23:54.:24:01.

The Conservative peers, who tabled most of the amendments, are busy

:24:02.:24:04.

But we can hear what one of them had to say a little earlier.

:24:05.:24:08.

Removing the hereditaries, which is the inevitable result

:24:09.:24:10.

of removing succession to hereditaries leaves a

:24:11.:24:15.

That is not, I believe, what the public wants.

:24:16.:24:20.

The latest opinion poll I could find shows that 60% of the

:24:21.:24:23.

Those figures replicate earlier opinion polls.

:24:24.:24:34.

My Lords, an appointed House is not what the House of Commons

:24:35.:24:37.

Let us remove all of us hereditaries but only on the condition that

:24:38.:24:43.

I believe keeping hereditaries will help us to achieve

:24:44.:24:55.

a Democratic, elected House, sooner rather than later.

:24:56.:24:59.

And we can talk now to the Labour peer Dianne Hayter, who has stepped

:25:00.:25:02.

I thought Earl Caithness made a rather attractive proposition. Get

:25:03.:25:14.

rid of all the hereditary peers and the appointed peers. Job done. It

:25:15.:25:19.

would be good if we could get rid of many of us in the House of Lords. We

:25:20.:25:23.

had a good debate on Monday where we think we are too big and ought to be

:25:24.:25:27.

reduced in size. There is a demand for that. What is interesting about

:25:28.:25:33.

the debate today, it is all men. You only inherit as a man. Wanting to

:25:34.:25:44.

keep a whole group of men, 92 men. Not just that they should be there

:25:45.:25:47.

but when they go, when they die, a sickly, their sons or grandson 's

:25:48.:25:49.

should inherit. They want to keep a block of people who were appointed

:25:50.:25:56.

originally, it was their fathers, their grandfathers, their

:25:57.:25:59.

great-grandfathers, or in one case, a great-great-grandfather who was

:26:00.:26:03.

appointed to this House, and they want that to continue down to their

:26:04.:26:07.

sons and grandsons. This modest measure is simply to say, look, the

:26:08.:26:14.

hereditary day has gone when the pleasant lot do, one by one, or each

:26:15.:26:19.

year, a few dive. We should stop those by-elections and stopped the

:26:20.:26:24.

next election of sons or grandson 's coming here. More seriously we need

:26:25.:26:29.

a reduction in the size of our chamber we can do the serious work

:26:30.:26:34.

will stop we have been talking about Brexit and foreign affairs. We have

:26:35.:26:39.

a serious job to do. We need to make our size smaller so we can do that

:26:40.:26:45.

job better. What size should it be? Smaller than the House of Commons.

:26:46.:26:50.

We need enough to have the expertise was one of the things we have in the

:26:51.:26:54.

House of Lords, we do not just have people who come from a political

:26:55.:26:58.

background. They come from civil service, science and doctors,

:26:59.:27:03.

industry and trade unions. There is a wide range of experience we want

:27:04.:27:08.

to hold onto. None of the people watching this programme have chosen

:27:09.:27:13.

these people. No but what is interesting is that people who have

:27:14.:27:16.

come here have made a career and often been chosen by others. They

:27:17.:27:20.

may have become the head of the civil service or the head of a big

:27:21.:27:26.

charity. They will have been chosen, albeit by a different electorate but

:27:27.:27:31.

people who know their particular profession well. The US Senate, the

:27:32.:27:36.

most powerful legislative body in the world, has 100 members. Wider

:27:37.:27:43.

you need 500? We're a part-time House. Many of us are part-time. We

:27:44.:27:51.

continue. You think of people who continue as doctors and lawyers.

:27:52.:27:55.

Actually a number of our members are part-time and they come in with that

:27:56.:27:59.

expertise that is not the case of the Senate. I am not saying there is

:28:00.:28:04.

a specific number. We need to look up what is the function of this

:28:05.:28:08.

House and have the appropriate number to do the job we need to do

:28:09.:28:13.

as the second chamber. It is not the same as America. The Senate was set

:28:14.:28:18.

up in a different way. Not always successful, for a different reason.

:28:19.:28:27.

We need something that is appropriate for the United Kingdom

:28:28.:28:31.

will stop the United Kingdom in this century. And we need to create

:28:32.:28:36.

something that really works for now. If you got your way, you would get

:28:37.:28:41.

rid of the ones who were elected by a ridiculously small constituency...

:28:42.:28:50.

What would stop a future government replacing these numbers by more

:28:51.:28:54.

appointed peers? Prime Minister 's love to do that. They say they will

:28:55.:28:59.

not in opposition but when they are in Ten Downing Street, they cannot

:29:00.:29:03.

stop themselves. That view is very strongly held. The last Prime

:29:04.:29:06.

Minister appointed more than any other. There were 240 the last Prime

:29:07.:29:12.

Minister appointed. That is very strongly felt that there has to be

:29:13.:29:16.

some sort of cap or restriction. Otherwise it would be very hard to

:29:17.:29:20.

get rid of a whole lot of peers, as we should do. Why not just get rid

:29:21.:29:29.

of the 92 now? Why not say, it is 2016, a hereditary principle should

:29:30.:29:36.

play no part, just get rid of them? There is an argument for that. This

:29:37.:29:41.

bill in front of us today was more modest. It was saying sons and

:29:42.:29:46.

grandsons. What is interesting in the question you pose, if we cannot

:29:47.:29:52.

really get that through our House at the moment, we had the hereditaries

:29:53.:29:55.

talking out by putting down wrecking a moment to even get rid of that

:29:56.:30:00.

modest bill. The challenge you are giving me, to which I would be very

:30:01.:30:09.

sympathetic, is how could we get that through this we cannot get

:30:10.:30:11.

through this very modest one? The sons and grandsons of people... You

:30:12.:30:19.

have made that .3 times. As a woman the 58 act two women into

:30:20.:30:22.

Parliament. We will stop on that. I take the point.

:30:23.:30:31.

The Earl of Limerick, how did he come to be elected? He penned a

:30:32.:30:40.

poem. I do have it, sadly. What the constitution kinky view that kind of

:30:41.:30:47.

-- what kind of constitution can give you that kind of approach? I

:30:48.:30:55.

rather sympathise with the Earl of Caithness's point. What is the

:30:56.:31:00.

purpose for this if you don't accompany it with a proposal to make

:31:01.:31:06.

the House of Lords more democratic and introduce elected peers. The

:31:07.:31:09.

problem with that is there is no appetite to reform the House of

:31:10.:31:14.

Lords and make it more democratic, because if it is more democratic,

:31:15.:31:18.

there is less of a case for withholding power, and then you end

:31:19.:31:24.

up with a much more bicameral legislation like America. The

:31:25.:31:29.

problem is perhaps with the approach, that it really is just

:31:30.:31:33.

tinkering at the edges. It is preposterous, the whole thing. Since

:31:34.:31:38.

1911 when Lloyd George started it, they tried to reform the House of

:31:39.:31:42.

Lords. Tony Blair managed at least get rid of most of the hereditary

:31:43.:31:45.

is, but every time they make specious arguments like this where

:31:46.:31:49.

they let the best be the enemy of the good, and instead of making

:31:50.:31:53.

gradual reforms, they say, unless we reform everything we can't reform

:31:54.:31:56.

anything, so nothing changes. Because that goes way back to

:31:57.:32:01.

Michael foot and Enoch Powell, they had a kind of Faustian alliance on

:32:02.:32:05.

that. British politics, it

:32:06.:32:08.

doesn't come cheap. In the last quarter,

:32:09.:32:09.

the Labour Party received more than ?3.7 million,

:32:10.:32:19.

The Conservatives got just under three million,

:32:20.:32:22.

But now a new political movement is harnessing a newish idea

:32:23.:32:26.

and trying out crowd-funding - tiny donations from lots of people.

:32:27.:32:29.

In the popular imagination, this is where the main political

:32:30.:32:32.

For the Tories, it's people like these.

:32:33.:32:37.

People whose hats are flatter, not-so-rich people who pay

:32:38.:32:45.

Pretty much it's always worked the way it has, and, we assume,

:32:46.:32:55.

Our politics is getting more extreme and more divided.

:32:56.:33:03.

But like so much in 2016, could that be about to change?

:33:04.:33:06.

This lot, known as More United, aren't a political party.

:33:07.:33:08.

But they do want to shake up politics.

:33:09.:33:14.

We're going to find a decent, progressive candidate out there.

:33:15.:33:16.

Then we are going to crowd fund to get them elected.

:33:17.:33:20.

I don't care what party they're from.

:33:21.:33:22.

Their plan is to target money at the candidates they

:33:23.:33:26.

want in around ten marginal seats in the next election.

:33:27.:33:28.

From any party, as long as they support certain values.

:33:29.:33:30.

Like being pro-EU and pro-immigration.

:33:31.:33:36.

We must enable these people to win these elections.

:33:37.:33:39.

That involves pamphlets and IT support, all sorts of

:33:40.:33:41.

One lesson I have learned - one lesson looking

:33:42.:33:45.

back through history - to run

:33:46.:33:47.

a successful political campaign, you do need money.

:33:48.:33:49.

We need to channel money to progressive people in

:33:50.:33:52.

Parliament, who are going to try to carry the values we

:33:53.:33:54.

hold dear and think are worth fighting for.

:33:55.:34:03.

They've raised more than ?170,000 of small donations in

:34:04.:34:06.

More United is an incredible political crowdfunding project.

:34:07.:34:11.

We've seen over 4000 people across the UK

:34:12.:34:13.

pledging to support the organisation and their aims and goals.

:34:14.:34:15.

At crowd funder, in total, there's been

:34:16.:34:19.

over ?1 million raised for political crowdfunding projects across the UK

:34:20.:34:21.

and that equates to about 35,000 people backing political movements

:34:22.:34:24.

That's a lot of people here in the UK.

:34:25.:34:28.

So could Britain's political parties take

:34:29.:34:30.

One expert says we shouldn't get carried away just yet.

:34:31.:34:37.

It's not really a model for funding parties more generally.

:34:38.:34:41.

The difficulty for parties is not usually raising money at election

:34:42.:34:44.

Models like crowdfunding will work for elections -

:34:45.:34:48.

or one-off events - but they're unlikely

:34:49.:34:51.

to work as a stable means of funding parties.

:34:52.:34:54.

There's another very British sticking point.

:34:55.:34:57.

Historically, unlike our American friends, us Brits don't like putting

:34:58.:34:59.

our hands in our pockets when it comes to politics.

:35:00.:35:03.

So, the funding revolution may have to wait.

:35:04.:35:16.

Good to see the production team in black there!

:35:17.:35:19.

And we've been joined by Dan Snow who, as we saw in the film, is a key

:35:20.:35:24.

Good to be back. Is this a Remain front organisation? No, because

:35:25.:35:32.

whatever we think, we are leaving the EU. It is much bigger than that.

:35:33.:35:38.

A lot of people are looking at the global situation at the moment, and

:35:39.:35:43.

it is getting a bit nasty. What can you do? You can join a political

:35:44.:35:47.

party, I'm not really a partisan person. It doesn't seem for me like

:35:48.:35:53.

that is the answer. But we want to do something. We see France, the

:35:54.:36:00.

USA, a narrow escape in Austria, and we have all sorts of things coming

:36:01.:36:04.

down the pipeline, so frankly it is not even a Brexit issue, we are just

:36:05.:36:10.

determined to make a stand. It is people giving small amounts of money

:36:11.:36:14.

to try to safeguard the thing we have achieved, this progressive

:36:15.:36:19.

society we have built. What we have done in the 21st-century is build

:36:20.:36:22.

such an incredible society, we have forgotten to sit back and enjoy it.

:36:23.:36:28.

This is a group saying, we are proud of this and we are going to fight

:36:29.:36:32.

for it, and as of the tide of extreme is arises, we will build a

:36:33.:36:35.

barrier. You backed Sarah Olney in Richmond, can you think of a

:36:36.:36:44.

pro-Brexit candidate you would back? Toby, you backed Brexit, but you are

:36:45.:36:48.

worried about the rise of racism, I think we would have a lot in common.

:36:49.:36:53.

We like to bring people together on this programme. We failed with

:36:54.:36:57.

Malcolm Rifkind! Gregg I welcome any initiative to bring people who are

:36:58.:37:00.

not normally involved in politics into politics. As more organisations

:37:01.:37:09.

like this to make interventions into by-elections, in general election, I

:37:10.:37:14.

think Brexit will be the beneficiary, because there are more

:37:15.:37:18.

constituencies where there is a disconnect between the way the

:37:19.:37:20.

constituency voted and the way the MP voted. If you have a candidate

:37:21.:37:28.

who like Toby voted for Brexit for all the best reasons, at a

:37:29.:37:31.

sovereignty and to Moxey and wanting to be more open, ideas I didn't

:37:32.:37:35.

agree with but I totally respect it, if there is a candidate like that

:37:36.:37:39.

running against someone who has extremist views and doesn't share

:37:40.:37:43.

our core philosophies, we would absolutely look at that. But the

:37:44.:37:48.

point is, it is exciting, it is young people, it is crowd sourcing,

:37:49.:37:53.

so we go to our members and we have a list of criteria and seats that we

:37:54.:37:57.

think we can win in, seats have to be winnable. But you won't put up

:37:58.:38:02.

your own candidate? We identify people from the Conservatives, right

:38:03.:38:07.

the way through any party, so it is not narrowly partisan. It is for

:38:08.:38:12.

people who are worried about the language and want to make a stand.

:38:13.:38:19.

Let me come back to the funding. Mr Obama's first campaign in 2008 was

:38:20.:38:26.

funded from lots of small donations, tens of millions of people gave less

:38:27.:38:37.

than $25. Only ?30,000 has come from small donations? I don't think that

:38:38.:38:42.

is true. I don't think it is like BAE Systems writing is hundred

:38:43.:38:49.

thousand pounds. Your press releases you have funding total of hundred

:38:50.:38:52.

and ?71,000, and the funding from small donations on the press release

:38:53.:38:59.

is just under 30,000. That is 5000 people. Tony Watt the press release

:39:00.:39:03.

says, what is a small donation? Where did the other donation come

:39:04.:39:11.

from? This is 4500 people on a crowdfunding website that gave us a

:39:12.:39:16.

small amount. No big corporate donors, nothing. Every single penny

:39:17.:39:21.

has come for the website. If they have chosen to give more than ?500,

:39:22.:39:26.

good for them. Do you know what the average is? No. What do you make of

:39:27.:39:33.

it? I think it is a nice idea. It is good to remind people of the value

:39:34.:39:36.

of essential democracy, because when you get the Daily Mail saying

:39:37.:39:40.

enemies of the people about the High Court, you begin to feel that the

:39:41.:39:43.

whole fabric of everything that we have built up over hundreds of years

:39:44.:39:49.

begins to shake and break, so I am glad that you are real week and in

:39:50.:39:53.

people to the idea of common ground and how democracy works. But on the

:39:54.:39:59.

other hand, we have a really divided political system, and it is naive to

:40:00.:40:02.

say it doesn't matter which party you belong to. On the one side,

:40:03.:40:08.

extreme austerity, on the other side, the Labour Party is not very

:40:09.:40:12.

effectively countering it, but at least they are making the case about

:40:13.:40:17.

the NHS, about social care, and these are important divides, you

:40:18.:40:20.

can't just move it all over. But you can try and make each party the best

:40:21.:40:24.

they can be, see you can intervene asserting elections to try to make

:40:25.:40:28.

sure that good people get into the House of Commons on all sides of

:40:29.:40:31.

Parliament. It is not as exciting as Donald Trump's call but the whole

:40:32.:40:37.

thing is corrupt and everything is a disaster, but we are saying we think

:40:38.:40:41.

things are pretty good, the achievement of building a

:40:42.:40:44.

progressive society which is broadly at peace and crime is low, we need

:40:45.:40:48.

to celebrate this and talk about this, and we live in a world where

:40:49.:40:51.

young people are turning their backs on democracy and think it isn't that

:40:52.:40:55.

important. We are so many generations away from the great

:40:56.:40:58.

struggles of our ancestors that people are taking these things for

:40:59.:41:02.

granted. I don't want to join a political party, I have voted for

:41:03.:41:07.

loads of different people. But lots of people are saying, what are we

:41:08.:41:10.

going to do about this? Some of the things going on in this country and

:41:11.:41:13.

particularly abroad. The system has its flaws, the floors are in our

:41:14.:41:18.

political system, it is hard to intervene, as you know, with first

:41:19.:41:22.

past the post, but it is something. We need to move on, I'm afraid. It

:41:23.:41:27.

is a packed programme today. Come back and tell us how it gets an. I

:41:28.:41:29.

will. Thank you very much. A shop in north London which aims

:41:30.:41:32.

to sell "quintessentially British" The shop opened a couple

:41:33.:41:34.

of weeks ago and since then the owners says dozens of members

:41:35.:41:44.

of the public have gone in and accused him and his

:41:45.:41:47.

staff of being racist. The shop is called Really British,

:41:48.:41:49.

and it's in Muswell It sells British-themed

:41:50.:41:52.

memorabilia and trinkets, and its stated aim is to celebrate

:41:53.:41:55.

British culture. But many people have felt that,

:41:56.:41:59.

in light of the recent EU referendum, the shop's all-British

:42:00.:42:03.

theme is divisive and offensive. After the flurry of complaints,

:42:04.:42:08.

some members of staff even But as well as negative comments,

:42:09.:42:11.

the owner says he's also received hundreds of messages of support

:42:12.:42:17.

from around the world. And joining me now is the owner

:42:18.:42:20.

of Really British, Chris Ostwald. And you have brought a number of

:42:21.:42:34.

your products. You opened the shops a couple of weeks ago? Yes, two

:42:35.:42:40.

weeks ago. And what happened since? The first day was really good, lots

:42:41.:42:44.

of interest, and then gradually we are having people coming in saying

:42:45.:42:49.

it is racist and that the name Really British is offensive. Who is

:42:50.:42:56.

saying that to you? Local English people who have been there for long

:42:57.:43:00.

time, they say, we have been in Muswell Hill for years, this is

:43:01.:43:04.

disgusting, you cannot call a shop British, we should be ashamed of the

:43:05.:43:08.

word Rajesh, this whole Brexit thing is just too sensitive. Do you think

:43:09.:43:16.

that is the main consensus, that the remains/ leave divide has made this

:43:17.:43:21.

thing more likely to happen? It seems that is part of it. Apart from

:43:22.:43:26.

the union Jack itself having maybe been used by some other factions and

:43:27.:43:30.

people saying the union Jack represents this all that. I say it

:43:31.:43:36.

represents Great Britain, and Great Britain is something we should be

:43:37.:43:42.

proud of. It has such a lot of English eccentric products, our

:43:43.:43:44.

English quintessential ways, that is what the shop is meant to be

:43:45.:43:49.

celebrating. The things you sell do not look too offensive at all.

:43:50.:43:57.

Particularly British Picadilly, which is just a funny sounding name

:43:58.:44:01.

to put on a product, it is made in England. How bad has it really been?

:44:02.:44:07.

Last Friday I thought we were going to have to close, I had four people

:44:08.:44:12.

coming and one completely lost it and was throwing products around the

:44:13.:44:15.

shop and saying things were disgusting, you have turned Muswell

:44:16.:44:22.

Hill into a sewer. Did you call the police? I tried to put the point

:44:23.:44:25.

across that it is about products not politics. Are you someone who has

:44:26.:44:32.

had any previous political loyalties at all? Not really, I just think

:44:33.:44:38.

everything is a mixed bag, half of what one party says is right. Are

:44:39.:44:45.

you involved in politics yourself? No, I was asked to join the Lib Dems

:44:46.:44:48.

as a counsellor, but it didn't happen, but that was only because of

:44:49.:44:53.

my work. Are all of these made in Britain? No, and that is not the

:44:54.:44:58.

idea, the idea it is celebrating our Englishness, so products are

:44:59.:45:02.

designed in the UK, and manufacturers have to have the made

:45:03.:45:07.

in China because of the cost. But if it is designed here, and the product

:45:08.:45:10.

is made elsewhere but then sold here, that makes it the dish. Says

:45:11.:45:15.

it is an ordinary souvenir shop like you get in Westminster? It is a

:45:16.:45:21.

pretty good point. When you go around the shops around Buckingham

:45:22.:45:24.

Palace and Westminster, they are all selling this stuff. I use a prized

:45:25.:45:32.

by this? -- are you surprised by this? It is certainly a very

:45:33.:45:36.

gentrified area, liberal and middle-class, I imagine it heavily

:45:37.:45:41.

voted Remain, so I think it is symptomatic of those on the Remain

:45:42.:45:44.

side believing in their own caricature of those on the Leave

:45:45.:45:52.

sides so anyone who claims to be patriotic in their eyes is a bit

:45:53.:45:55.

suspect and must be beneath the surface a little bit racist and

:45:56.:46:01.

xenophobic. I worry a bit about Dan's campaign that he somehow

:46:02.:46:03.

interprets the Brexit victory in slots at alongside the Trump victory

:46:04.:46:08.

and thinks it is part of the rise of extremism and xenophobia, for an

:46:09.:46:11.

identity kit is. Apart from all the appalling physical attacks on

:46:12.:46:18.

foreigners. It is certainly unleashed something. But if you look

:46:19.:46:24.

at the statistics, it is a rise from 42 attacks to 53, it is often

:46:25.:46:33.

exaggerated. That the problem, though. What we have got is English

:46:34.:46:37.

products mixing in with politics, and people are saying we are going

:46:38.:46:41.

to boycott your shop selling English products, we don't think it is

:46:42.:46:46.

right. One man said, I am glad you have opened a shop celebrating

:46:47.:46:50.

Britishness, but you should sell Jamaican things, because Jamaicans

:46:51.:46:55.

are part of Britain. I said anyone who lives in the UK as part of

:46:56.:46:58.

written, but we are celebrating staff.

:46:59.:47:05.

Do you think, if you changed the name? Change the name! That would be

:47:06.:47:16.

a U-turn. This company were really pleased to send these socks out to

:47:17.:47:24.

us. These are Prince Charles's socks. Does he wear socks like that?

:47:25.:47:32.

He must do. If you called it rich dish souvenirs, that would have been

:47:33.:47:39.

all right, wouldn't it? It is the British word that is the problem.

:47:40.:47:47.

People have been coming in and walking out. Almost like a

:47:48.:47:52.

rehearsed, orchestrated walking out. Do you think someone may be behind

:47:53.:47:58.

it? A woman said, we, as a group, are going to boycott your shop. The

:47:59.:48:07.

irony is, if you opened your shop in a more socially and ethnically

:48:08.:48:12.

diverse area, you would probably have a huge success. I have had

:48:13.:48:18.

success but it is among people who are not white, British. It is

:48:19.:48:26.

essentially foreign people. It is for tourists. An American came in

:48:27.:48:30.

and said, my wife sent me out to get a gift to send back to America. She

:48:31.:48:36.

said get something, really British. I walked down the high street in

:48:37.:48:40.

their original shop called really British. He bought a scar. Stay

:48:41.:48:45.

safe. Keep us informed as to it goes. -- a scarf. I see you have

:48:46.:48:54.

Dennis the Menace and the Beano. I chose the Beano one year and the

:48:55.:48:57.

Dandy the next. We will move on! Now, if you're a bookworm looking

:48:58.:49:00.

for a juicy political novel to get you through Christmas,

:49:01.:49:03.

you'll be pleased to hear that a new set of book awards has

:49:04.:49:05.

just been announced. It's the Parliamentary Book

:49:06.:49:08.

of the Year Awards, and Adam Fleming has been leafing through some

:49:09.:49:10.

of the winners. Book shops came up

:49:11.:49:14.

with the short list. Bookish MPs and peers

:49:15.:49:16.

chose the winners. Alan Johnson's third

:49:17.:49:18.

volume of autobiography Alan Johnson writes about a phone

:49:19.:49:21.

call from Tony Blair, as he was about to go

:49:22.:49:26.

into a Thai restaurant. We exchanged a few pleasantries

:49:27.:49:30.

before I began to wind up the conversation so I could rush off

:49:31.:49:32.

into the restaurant. The truth was I'd never remotely

:49:33.:49:35.

considered the possibility. What's more, for a general secretary

:49:36.:49:48.

of an affiliated trade union, hankering after a parliamentary seat

:49:49.:49:51.

would be diagnosed as a case "Oh," said Tony,

:49:52.:49:54.

slightly disconcerted. "Someone told me you were keen

:49:55.:50:00.

to come into Parliament." Best Nonfiction was Margaret Hodge's

:50:01.:50:04.

account of her time as chair Margaret Hodge has been warned

:50:05.:50:07.

to keep her cool while questioning the head of Google in the UK,

:50:08.:50:15.

Matt Britton. However, at the end of a long

:50:16.:50:17.

and frustrating session, When preparing for the session,

:50:18.:50:20.

I'd come across Google's own company motto which read,

:50:21.:50:23.

don't be evil. Observing the arrogant attitude

:50:24.:50:27.

of Matt Britton at our hearing, and angered by the difficulties

:50:28.:50:30.

in his evidence, I concluded the session by saying, "You're

:50:31.:50:33.

a company that says you do no evil but I think you do do evil

:50:34.:50:37.

and that you use smoke and mirrors That became the headlines

:50:38.:50:41.

on the evening news. Melvyn Bragg won the Fiction

:50:42.:50:49.

category with his novel set It was the injustice

:50:50.:50:51.

of the intolerable taxes on the poorest and the anger

:50:52.:50:57.

against the tax-avoiding rich. It was the block on betterment

:50:58.:51:01.

and the loss of faith in authority. It was the erosion of

:51:02.:51:04.

morality and the fear It was an attempt to recover Eden,

:51:05.:51:07.

a leap for freedom, a cry from the depths of the souls

:51:08.:51:14.

of the people, the true John Bew's biography of Attlee

:51:15.:51:16.

was the Best Political Book More than anything he was left

:51:17.:51:23.

with a greater appreciation of how It was not until the Great War that

:51:24.:51:29.

I fully understood the strength of the ties that bind men

:51:30.:51:36.

to the land of their birth. If anything, the experience

:51:37.:51:39.

of the trenches intensified the sense of moral urgency

:51:40.:51:41.

which underlay his determination He wrote, "We live in a state

:51:42.:51:45.

of society where the vast We endeavour to give

:51:46.:51:51.

them a freer life." There was no actual description

:51:52.:51:56.

of the political battle that Attlee was determined to return to as soon

:51:57.:52:00.

as the war was brought to an end. And the winner of Best Political

:52:01.:52:06.

Book by a non-parliamentarian, It is called Citizen Clem. Many

:52:07.:52:34.

people are regarding this as the definitive biography of Clement

:52:35.:52:39.

Attlee. I did not read it in a night. It took longer than that. I

:52:40.:52:45.

thoroughly enjoyed it. What struck me about this understated but

:52:46.:52:52.

fascinating man, we associate him with the National Health Service,

:52:53.:52:56.

the nationalisation of the row ways and other things. What comes across

:52:57.:53:01.

in your book is how much of a real patriot he was. That explains

:53:02.:53:05.

everything about Clement Attlee. One of the things you need to understand

:53:06.:53:09.

about 20th-century Labour Party socialism is how tight it is. One is

:53:10.:53:17.

an ethical commitment to one's fellow man or women in society and

:53:18.:53:22.

another sound is this dialogue -- side if this dialogue to rights and

:53:23.:53:26.

responsibilities. All of these things exist in British society but

:53:27.:53:31.

are missed in British politics. Attlee has had a receptive audience.

:53:32.:53:37.

He went to a top public school, he went to Oxford, he had been a major

:53:38.:53:44.

in the Army. He went to Gallipoli. He went back in again at one stage.

:53:45.:53:50.

He went to work in the east end. The impression I get is that was, maybe

:53:51.:53:56.

not as dramatic as this, but it was a political road to Damascus for

:53:57.:54:02.

him. The word I humour chores into socialism. It is not a nervous night

:54:03.:54:15.

-- an overnight thing. He goes to the heart of imperial metropolis,

:54:16.:54:19.

the East End, and he sees conditions that are disgraceful. It is his

:54:20.:54:24.

patriotically that shuns him along the path to the Labour Party. In the

:54:25.:54:30.

early days, no one saw him as leader of the Labour Party. He became

:54:31.:54:33.

leader in quite unusual circumstances. It was the collapse

:54:34.:54:39.

of labour under MacDonald and the national government. Labour elected

:54:40.:54:45.

a pacifist as a leader, Lansbury. He only survive till 35. That did not

:54:46.:54:50.

quite work at a time when Stalin and the Nazis were on the rise. A

:54:51.:54:55.

grey-haired pacifist who seemed to lead the Labour Party into oblivion

:54:56.:55:00.

and was hopeless for the times. It makes one think of contemporary

:55:01.:55:04.

events. He was a reliable colleague, a committed colleague. He was very

:55:05.:55:09.

hard-working. You do not have political careers that last decades

:55:10.:55:14.

anymore. People flash and blame and we see the embers of that. Your

:55:15.:55:22.

father knew Clement Attlee. Yes, he was the secretary of the Labour

:55:23.:55:27.

Party's research department for the duration of Attlee's first

:55:28.:55:32.

administration. I have a question. The Labour Party has had 20 leaders

:55:33.:55:38.

since 1906. Only three of them have won Parliamentary majorities. Harold

:55:39.:55:42.

Wilson, Tony Blair and Clement Attlee. What did Clement Attlee have

:55:43.:55:46.

in common with the other two which enabled him to win a general

:55:47.:55:51.

election? Simply speaking, a capacity to speak beyond the left.

:55:52.:55:57.

That is not easy. The left in the 20th-century so fractious, difficult

:55:58.:56:04.

and problematic. So many people around at least think they are

:56:05.:56:07.

better fit for the job. He compares a socialist to gardening. Cripps

:56:08.:56:16.

grew to respect at legal to keep bank rolled him initially. There is

:56:17.:56:21.

a genuine sense as to what the nation fell broadly speaking. What

:56:22.:56:25.

advice would you give to Jeremy Corbyn? There he is not singing the

:56:26.:56:30.

national anthem and very unhappy with any patriotic feeling. What

:56:31.:56:34.

could he learn? Attlee could cope with others who did not agree with

:56:35.:56:38.

him and he brought them into his Cabinet. He let Bevan loose and

:56:39.:56:47.

created the NHS. He had been hostile to him throughout the war. He could

:56:48.:56:50.

live with critics. That is one thing. He would be amused and roll

:56:51.:56:57.

his eyes. He was a loyal party man. He would be one of those sticking it

:56:58.:57:03.

out on the backbenches, waiting for his turn. He would be utterly

:57:04.:57:09.

bemused. What Mr Corbyn would not like is the huge efforts he went to

:57:10.:57:15.

to tie America into the defence of Western Europe. He was instrumental

:57:16.:57:19.

with Truman in getting Nato off the ground. Even then, he thought, that

:57:20.:57:24.

is not enough. We may not be able to depend on the Americans so we need

:57:25.:57:28.

to have our own nuclear deterrent. He took us down that road. With

:57:29.:57:36.

Ernie Bevin. Wrapped in a big Union Jack, as Ernie Bevin put it in a

:57:37.:57:44.

liquid lunch. He shunted it through because people like Cripps wanted...

:57:45.:57:50.

You have not read this. I will give it to my partner for Christmas. You

:57:51.:57:53.

can read it over his shoulder. There's just time before we go

:57:54.:57:57.

to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was: Who

:57:58.:58:00.

did David Cameron go Was it a) President Putin,

:58:01.:58:02.

b) president-elect Trump, c) ex-president Bush or d)

:58:03.:58:06.

former Ukip leader Farage? What is the right answer? Putin.

:58:07.:58:19.

Bush is the right answer. They are all equally unlikely. Let's see a

:58:20.:58:29.

picture of this historic moment. They did not understand the rules.

:58:30.:58:32.

It is not cricket, it is just rounders really.

:58:33.:58:36.

The one O'clock News is starting over on BBC One now.

:58:37.:58:38.

I'll be back on Sunday with the Sunday Politics.

:58:39.:58:41.

We are going to be looking at Brexit again. We will have our usual panel.

:58:42.:58:50.

On at 11 o'clock on Sunday morning. It is our penultimate edition of

:58:51.:58:57.

2016. Hope you can join me. By five. -- goodbye.

:58:58.:59:01.

I went up to her at the end of the class -

:59:02.:59:03.

she said, "Where did you copy this essay?"

:59:04.:59:06.

Because she couldn't believe that a little chubby black girl

:59:07.:59:10.

Andrew Neil with the latest political news, interviews and debate. He is joined by journalists Toby Young and Polly Toynbee to discuss the outcome of the Sleaford by-election and foreign secretary Boris Johnson's performance.


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