08/12/2016 Daily Politics


08/12/2016

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn are joined by Paul Mason. They look at what sort of Brexit plan the government will publish and also hear from Yvette Cooper on a new immigration inquiry.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 08/12/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

The Commons gives its clear backing for the Government's timetable

:00:37.:00:44.

MPs voted overwhelmingly in favour of the plan to trigger Article 50

:00:45.:00:51.

by the end of March next year and so begin the formal negotiation

:00:52.:00:54.

In return, MPs say they want more detail on the plans.

:00:55.:00:58.

Once we've left the EU what should our immigration system look like?

:00:59.:01:03.

The Home Affairs Select Committee is launching a nationwide inquiry

:01:04.:01:06.

Its chair, Yvette Cooper, joins us live.

:01:07.:01:13.

Is Momentum, the campaign group set up to support

:01:14.:01:16.

Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, facing an existential crisis?

:01:17.:01:21.

We report on the divisions and infighting afflicting

:01:22.:01:25.

I'm welcoming the next Prime Minister of Britain Jeremy Corbyn.

:01:26.:01:32.

He thinks it's possible, despite what the polls say.

:01:33.:01:34.

But 2016 wasn't exactly a great year for pollsters, so could the idea

:01:35.:01:37.

of a Prime Minister Corbyn become a reality?

:01:38.:01:48.

All that in the next hour and with us for the whole

:01:49.:01:51.

of the programme today is the writer and broadcaster Paul Mason.

:01:52.:01:55.

Paul used to be a journalist for Channel 4 News and,

:01:56.:01:57.

He reported regularly from Athens. Newsnight before and then you went

:01:58.:02:04.

to Channel 4. He's now free of the strictures

:02:05.:02:10.

of broadcast news and able to offer his opinion on all manner

:02:11.:02:12.

of things, I dare say we may tease out a few of those

:02:13.:02:16.

opinions in the next hour. Unlike you. I'm envious of your

:02:17.:02:21.

position. Welcome back. Thank you. One day you might get an

:02:22.:02:24.

opportunity. I doubt it.

:02:25.:02:30.

First today, the Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson has

:02:31.:02:32.

accused Britain's ally, Saudi Arabia, of engaging in "proxy

:02:33.:02:35.

The Guardian newspaper has published footage in which Mr Johnson says

:02:36.:02:39.

Saudi Arabai and Iran are "puppeteering" in various

:02:40.:02:41.

He was speaking at a conference in Rome last week.

:02:42.:02:44.

There are politicians who are twisting and abusing

:02:45.:02:48.

religion and different strains of the same religion in order

:02:49.:02:51.

to further their own political objectives and that's one

:02:52.:02:58.

of the biggest political problems in the whole region.

:02:59.:03:02.

The tragedy for me - and that's why you have these proxy

:03:03.:03:07.

wars being fought the whole time in that area -

:03:08.:03:09.

is that there is not strong enough leadership in the

:03:10.:03:12.

You've got the Saudis, the Irans, everybody moving in and puppeteering

:03:13.:03:18.

We need to have some way of encouraging visionary leadership.

:03:19.:03:32.

Boris Johnson there. Paul Mason you must be delighted that the Foreign

:03:33.:03:37.

Secretary agrees with you? Substantially, I think he is right.

:03:38.:03:43.

But, of course, if you listen to the whole clip. There are two huge

:03:44.:03:49.

bloopers in T one is to diss the UK's strategic ally in the region.

:03:50.:03:53.

Remember, we are building a Royal Navy base in the Gulf, in Bahrain to

:03:54.:03:58.

support Saudi Arabia in its proxy war in Yemen and the rest. The other

:03:59.:04:08.

thing, if this weird notion that the Sunni and Shia conflict is the

:04:09.:04:10.

result of politicians that don't display leader sh. It is a

:04:11.:04:14.

fundamental fault line. Does he not have officials over there in the

:04:15.:04:17.

Foreign Office? Was there nobody there saying to him - Boris, you are

:04:18.:04:21.

going to speak about the Middle East, we have one ally, what is

:04:22.:04:24.

going on in the Foreign Office? Well, you are not the only one

:04:25.:04:29.

putting that question. The Prime Minister's spokesperson has in the

:04:30.:04:32.

last half an hour or so, responding to the commented from the Foreign

:04:33.:04:36.

Secretary, said that Theresa May wants to strengthen the relationship

:04:37.:04:42.

with Saudi Arabia. She said "We are supporting the Saudi-led coalition

:04:43.:04:46.

in support of the legitimate Government in Yemen against huety

:04:47.:04:50.

rebels." She said, "Those are the Prime Minister's views, the Foreign

:04:51.:04:53.

Secretary's views are knotted the Government's position on, for

:04:54.:04:56.

example -- are not the Government's position on, for example, Saudi

:04:57.:04:59.

Arabia and the region. If that's not a slapdown, I don't know what is

:05:00.:05:04.

Everybody who speaks in public has an off day but the clip there seemed

:05:05.:05:09.

to - Boris Johnson seemed to be pulling these ideas almost out of a

:05:10.:05:16.

spontaneous well-spring of ideas. A stream of consciousness. I think

:05:17.:05:21.

that's the word. The substantive problem is the May administration

:05:22.:05:26.

has inherited what I think is a very bad, combined foreign and defence

:05:27.:05:29.

strategy, in the Middle East. That is, it has this thing about global

:05:30.:05:34.

reach. To have global reach you need a base in Bahrain, the Saudis buying

:05:35.:05:39.

your fighters. After Trump, and falling apart of the globalisation,

:05:40.:05:43.

what does this mean? I would have liked to hear Boris Johnson talk

:05:44.:05:46.

about that. I think he probably does want to talk about that. I'm sure he

:05:47.:05:52.

does but at the moment there is now, there are two different positions.

:05:53.:05:55.

There is Theresa May and the Government's position and there is

:05:56.:05:59.

the Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson's position As we will find

:06:00.:06:03.

out this, pervies the Government. It has divided positions on many thing,

:06:04.:06:06.

including Brexit which we are about to talk B but Britain, as an

:06:07.:06:11.

all-imperial power w responsibilities around the world,

:06:12.:06:15.

needs, with responsibilities around the world, needs its diplomatic

:06:16.:06:17.

service to feed into the Foreign Office, what is going on. If you

:06:18.:06:21.

have a policy you either stick to it or change it and you need

:06:22.:06:26.

competence. And I, not for the first time one finds oneself saying about

:06:27.:06:30.

Boris Johnson, the man is not competent to do this job. In terms

:06:31.:06:35.

of you either change the policy or stick to t the spokespersoned for

:06:36.:06:38.

the Prime Minister said "The Foreign Secretary will be in the region this

:06:39.:06:42.

weekend and that will be an opportunity for him to set the

:06:43.:06:45.

Government's position on relations with Saudi Arabia and others in the

:06:46.:06:48.

region" rather than his own. And asked if the Prime Minister had full

:06:49.:06:53.

confidence in Mr Johnson, the spokeswoman said "yes." It has come

:06:54.:07:00.

to something fairly early on whether you are questioning whether the

:07:01.:07:03.

Prime Minister still has confidence in her Home Secretary? There is no

:07:04.:07:08.

need for Mr Johnson to be picking this fight or inadvertent stumble

:07:09.:07:12.

over Saudy. It is not a substantive issue the Government is trying to

:07:13.:07:16.

deal with. The Iran deal will be blown up, when Trump becomes

:07:17.:07:19.

President. We need our diplomatic service on the case and our Foreign

:07:20.:07:23.

Secretary on the case in the Middle East to work out how we can save,

:07:24.:07:27.

because we are still part of the European European, which has signed

:07:28.:07:30.

a deal with Iran, this peace-making deal in the Gulf because nobody

:07:31.:07:35.

wants a nuclear armed war between these two powers. I wonder how

:07:36.:07:39.

emotions are running in the Foreign Office at the moment?

:07:40.:07:42.

The problem is, he speaks as a pundit. As a journalist? I could ask

:07:43.:07:47.

a question in the Gulf where I go regular lane I could have said that.

:07:48.:07:52.

He is not a -- regularly and I could have said that. But he is not a

:07:53.:07:56.

pundit, he is the Foreign Secretary And we had the position where the

:07:57.:07:59.

opposition try to defeat them on arming the Saudis. What does this

:08:00.:08:03.

sound like? The Saudis say - the British political establishment is

:08:04.:08:05.

not keen on us at the moment. They might have taken that away from the

:08:06.:08:07.

comments. Theresa May has given an interview

:08:08.:08:13.

in which she's criticised civil servants for using a certain word

:08:14.:08:17.

or phrase that's popular So our question today

:08:18.:08:19.

is, what's the word? A) Corbynism, b) Populism,

:08:20.:08:23.

c) The squeezed middle or d) Jams At the end of the show Paul will

:08:24.:08:25.

give us the correct answer. So last night MPs overwhelmingly

:08:26.:08:33.

passed a Government amendment calling on ministers to trigger

:08:34.:08:35.

Article 50 by the end They also approved a Labour motion

:08:36.:08:37.

calling on Ministers to publish a "plan for leaving the EU" before

:08:38.:08:43.

the exit negotiations begin. But what do we already

:08:44.:08:46.

know about what this MPs are asking Theresa May

:08:47.:08:48.

about her vision for Brexit but there were some clues

:08:49.:08:58.

in her speech to the Conservative The Prime Minister said leaving

:08:59.:09:00.

the European Union meant Britain would now be able to have

:09:01.:09:06.

"control of immigration". She also said the UK laws should

:09:07.:09:10.

no longer be subject Both of those statements were taken

:09:11.:09:13.

by some as a signal that the UK would not remain a member

:09:14.:09:21.

of the single market. Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson,

:09:22.:09:24.

also outlined a four-point Brexit plan on the Andrew Marr Show last

:09:25.:09:26.

weekend. He said Brexit gave Britain

:09:27.:09:30.

the opportunity to take back control of our borders,

:09:31.:09:33.

our money, our laws, and to be able That fourth point on free trade

:09:34.:09:36.

could mean the UK will have Britain could still pay

:09:37.:09:43.

to get the best access to the single market -

:09:44.:09:46.

Brexit Secretary, David Davis, told MPs last week that the Government

:09:47.:09:49.

was considering it. The final exit deal is also

:09:50.:09:55.

expected to be voted upon by the House of Commons,

:09:56.:09:57.

after Mr Davis said it would be "inconceivable"

:09:58.:10:00.

for MPs not to have a vote. But will that be

:10:01.:10:04.

enough to satisfy MPs? And could the Supreme Court ask

:10:05.:10:07.

Ministers to go further in how they spell out the specifics

:10:08.:10:12.

of their exit plan? Well, there were many MPs calling

:10:13.:10:15.

for the Government to provide more detail during the debate

:10:16.:10:18.

in Parliament yesterday. I put the Government on notice,

:10:19.:10:20.

that if it fails to produce a plan by the time we are debating Article

:10:21.:10:33.

50 legislation, if we are - assuming the Government doesn't win

:10:34.:10:37.

- amendments from this side and possibly from the other side

:10:38.:10:40.

of the House, will be put forward, setting out the minimum requirements

:10:41.:10:43.

of a plan. In other words, we're not

:10:44.:10:51.

going to have a situation where the Government seeks a vote

:10:52.:10:56.

in a vacuum, or produces This is a negotiation,

:10:57.:10:59.

it is not a policy statement, and, therefore, where we are aiming for -

:11:00.:11:17.

and we may be on the same page on this - where we are aiming for,

:11:18.:11:20.

may not be the exact place of hints, I would merely remind

:11:21.:11:24.

the House that when Moses came down from the mountain bearing

:11:25.:11:31.

the tablet, He was pretty clear about what he

:11:32.:11:32.

was telling people what to do. Once again, the Labour

:11:33.:11:38.

front bench sides with They are out to try to frustrate

:11:39.:11:40.

and overturn the way Parliamentary sovereignty,

:11:41.:11:44.

Mr Speaker, is short hand The verdict of the people on June

:11:45.:11:46.

23rd was absolutely clear. It would be perverse to invoke

:11:47.:11:53.

parliamentary oversight and sovereignty as a pretext

:11:54.:11:57.

for dither and delay. Now they promised to publish a plan,

:11:58.:12:00.

but it's been quite clear to me from the Government's statement,

:12:01.:12:03.

from the statements of Conservative MPs outside this

:12:04.:12:07.

chamber in the last 24 hours that that plan will not be the white

:12:08.:12:11.

paper that the Brexit Secretary once promised, it will not answer the big

:12:12.:12:14.

questions about our vital access to the single market,

:12:15.:12:17.

the rights of UK citizens abroad and EU citizens here

:12:18.:12:20.

or issues such as tariffs. Now, to me, nothing could be

:12:21.:12:26.

clearer than what the I'm glad to see they

:12:27.:12:28.

find clarity amusing. I think they would benefit from some

:12:29.:12:40.

clarity but our position on the Government's side

:12:41.:12:43.

is very simple. We want to have some restriction

:12:44.:12:47.

on freedom of movement. We what a change in those

:12:48.:12:50.

arrangements, while having the widest possible access

:12:51.:12:53.

to the single market. Those are two very

:12:54.:12:57.

simple principles. I see various members of the front

:12:58.:12:59.

bench chuntering in their positions but even they should be able

:13:00.:13:02.

to understand this basic position. Joining me now is the Conservative

:13:03.:13:12.

MP, Bernard Jenkin, and the Labour Whack to you both. Bernard Jenkin,

:13:13.:13:23.

Iain Duncan Smith, your colleague fellow Brexiteer said last night's

:13:24.:13:28.

vote was "historic." Why? Well it was a bit of a watershed wasn't it?

:13:29.:13:36.

By a majority of hundreds, the House of Commons voted to invoke Article

:13:37.:13:42.

50 by 31st March. A non-binding op Opposition Day motion which doesn't

:13:43.:13:45.

technically force the Government to do anything. Correct but historic.

:13:46.:13:49.

Correct but it was an expression of the opinion of the House of Commons,

:13:50.:13:52.

that would have been unthinkable before the referendum. There you

:13:53.:13:56.

have it. It was the House of Commons accepting the referendum result.

:13:57.:13:58.

What did Labour achieve yesterday? I think we finally got the Government

:13:59.:14:03.

to confirm that it will produce and publish a plan. That will give us

:14:04.:14:08.

something to scrutinise. Do you have anything idea what the plan will

:14:09.:14:11.

look like? It sounds to me like they want a hard Brexit. What I meant

:14:12.:14:17.

was, the nature of the plan? Will it be a white paper, a green paper?

:14:18.:14:22.

Back of a fag packet sent over to you. . Back of an envelope. You gave

:14:23.:14:30.

in, if I can put it that way, without details of what the plan

:14:31.:14:35.

will be. I think it should be a white paper. We should push hard for

:14:36.:14:40.

that. Let's not have a childish reaction from the Government where

:14:41.:14:45.

they bring forward a two-line bill on 30th March. Let's have respect.

:14:46.:14:51.

And am tour debate based on a detailed plan. What do you think the

:14:52.:14:55.

Government will do? I think the Government is likely to produce a

:14:56.:15:00.

white paper. It is likely to be the Government's opening offer, the

:15:01.:15:02.

shape or opening of the Government's opening offer. For the negotiations?

:15:03.:15:06.

For the negotiations. What that white paper then be translated into

:15:07.:15:11.

legislation? No, that white paper would be the opening position for

:15:12.:15:15.

the negotiation of the withdrawal agreement.

:15:16.:15:19.

And the Commons would vote on the White Paper? If it wanted to, it

:15:20.:15:27.

could. Would that be enough? Yes, if the plan isn't good enough they

:15:28.:15:30.

would have to come back with a better one. It could be that the

:15:31.:15:34.

Supreme Court may rule that actually you need legislation to do this, a

:15:35.:15:40.

motion in parliament, even for a white Paper, doesn't change the law.

:15:41.:15:43.

I don't know if that is how they will rule but that is a strong

:15:44.:15:47.

argument that has been put by Lord Pannick on the side of the

:15:48.:15:51.

plaintiffs. If they do that, they motion would not be enough. We would

:15:52.:15:57.

then need a bill as well. While this is going on, anybody studying

:15:58.:16:02.

A-level politics should be watching the Supreme Court hearing because

:16:03.:16:05.

you are getting an almost English Civil War enunciation of the English

:16:06.:16:14.

Cottage Ouschan for first time by people who know about it -- English

:16:15.:16:23.

Constitution. The critical problem for the soft Brexiteers like me, I

:16:24.:16:27.

want the softest possible Brexit, we must do it, but I want to stay in

:16:28.:16:31.

the Single Market, I want minimal changes to the freedom of movement.

:16:32.:16:36.

If it isn't that and the Europeans at the end of the two years give us

:16:37.:16:41.

a very tough deal, what do you do? The people on the Labour benches and

:16:42.:16:46.

the Conservative rebels need to be prepared to say that they would vote

:16:47.:16:51.

it down. Let's go to the White Paper first. Do you think they would have

:16:52.:16:54.

to be legislation to enact the White Paper? No, the White Paper, we are

:16:55.:17:00.

muddling up two things, we may or may not need legislation to enact

:17:01.:17:07.

Article 50. The negotiation will result in an agreement and the

:17:08.:17:12.

agreement may or may not need legislation but the negotiating

:17:13.:17:17.

position could not be... Unless there is a mad amendment put in the

:17:18.:17:20.

Article 50 bill saying that the government must achieve this and

:17:21.:17:24.

this, that would be crazy. I assume that is what Labour would like to

:17:25.:17:30.

do, if the government laid out a negotiating position, its broad

:17:31.:17:35.

position in an act of Parliament... That would be crazy. You would want

:17:36.:17:41.

to amend it? We can't do the crystal ball gazing, if they come forward

:17:42.:17:45.

with a plan, a piece of legislation that isn't in the national interest

:17:46.:17:49.

and we have to go to them and say that you have to come back with a

:17:50.:17:53.

better one. The clear thing is not connecting it to not triggering

:17:54.:17:57.

Article 50. We need to hold the government to account, not the

:17:58.:18:01.

ransom. I'm trying to get clarity here -- not to ransom. He White

:18:02.:18:06.

Paper wouldn't be that long but it would outline the strategic aims of

:18:07.:18:12.

the government, and then almost a short, almost a three line act of

:18:13.:18:18.

Parliament simply saying, we now vote to trigger Article 50 and begin

:18:19.:18:23.

negotiations as laid out in the government White Paper. What the

:18:24.:18:26.

government has promised is a vote at the end of the Article 50 process. I

:18:27.:18:31.

think that's the key. This is so dynamic. On the deal? Yes. David

:18:32.:18:38.

Davies said yesterday that he thinks it is inconceivable that there

:18:39.:18:41.

wouldn't be a vote at the end of the two-year period. He probably said it

:18:42.:18:46.

was inconceivable that Donald Trump would win! I'm not a betting man.

:18:47.:18:53.

The bill won't mention the White Paper, the negotiation will not be

:18:54.:18:57.

made just as a bull in law. Our system works. The government

:18:58.:19:03.

proposes and Parliament disposes. If Parliament does not like the

:19:04.:19:09.

government's negotiating in the European Union, ultimately

:19:10.:19:11.

Parliament can sack the government and it would become an issue of

:19:12.:19:15.

confidence and I'm certain we would win on the issue. At the end of the

:19:16.:19:19.

process, what would happen if we have a vote, two years have gone and

:19:20.:19:24.

we have a deal, some will like it and some won't. If the Commons then

:19:25.:19:30.

voted for the deal, off we go, but if it votes against the deal, it

:19:31.:19:35.

isn't a vote for a better deal, it's not even a vote to stay or leave, it

:19:36.:19:41.

is just a vote for no deal. I think... These are all

:19:42.:19:44.

hypotheticals, but I think it's more possible than not, actually. It

:19:45.:19:50.

takes two to tango and the Europeans are in no mood to give us anything

:19:51.:19:54.

other than a hard, clear Brexit. That may suit the government. It

:19:55.:19:59.

might but it might not suit them because they need to sell to British

:20:00.:20:04.

industry this transitional deal of Nissan getting a piece of the

:20:05.:20:08.

action, the insurance industry getting equivalents. Even this

:20:09.:20:13.

fairly Eurosceptic Tory government would not accent a straightforward

:20:14.:20:19.

brick. Do you have a clear idea in your mind off what the broad

:20:20.:20:24.

strategic aims should be off Brexit? I can give my opinion, I don't have

:20:25.:20:29.

any inside knowledge. I think the government is likely to make a very

:20:30.:20:34.

broad offer, 00 offer on tariffs and an offered to translate the regular

:20:35.:20:41.

tui services for trade into a system of mutual recognition -- regulatory

:20:42.:20:48.

services. It is in everybody's interests to do that. The

:20:49.:20:52.

alternative, especially on tariffs, if they don't want to do that offer,

:20:53.:20:57.

we would go to the WTO tariffs and we would raise a lot of money on EU

:20:58.:21:02.

imports into the country which we could spend an Loring business

:21:03.:21:08.

taxation, improving incentives. -- Loring. -- Loring taxes. There is

:21:09.:21:16.

this talk about access to the Single Market. If they wanted us to pay for

:21:17.:21:20.

access, then they are caught tariffs and we will pay them. I didn't ask

:21:21.:21:25.

about tariffs, that's another issue. Where does this leave the Supreme

:21:26.:21:30.

Court? The top judge on the Supreme Court said, I'm not saying it's his

:21:31.:21:36.

opinion, I suspect it isn't but he said people will wonder, if

:21:37.:21:40.

Parliament has voted for Brexit, as it did by such a huge amount, what's

:21:41.:21:43.

the point of the Supreme Court? The answer perhaps is that the court may

:21:44.:21:49.

still insist that there has to be legislation. The court could insist

:21:50.:21:53.

that but I think we're beginning to see that this action has been rather

:21:54.:22:02.

otiose. Otiose? An American elevator? That's Otis! Unnecessary

:22:03.:22:12.

and time wasting. The Supreme Court had to get themselves out of a

:22:13.:22:17.

difficult spot. The courts don't like to interfere in Parliament. A

:22:18.:22:20.

rather odd situation where we are waiting for a judgment... Spending

:22:21.:22:26.

millions of pounds of taxpayers money on this otiose... On the other

:22:27.:22:36.

point you raised about the process, it is vital that we have a

:22:37.:22:39.

transitional arrangement as part of the withdrawal agreement. We aren't

:22:40.:22:44.

going to get the full deal with in the process. I'm going to stop you

:22:45.:22:48.

because we will definitely be back on this! More than once! Thank you

:22:49.:22:51.

both. Many MPs seem to agree

:22:52.:22:53.

that the referendum was a vote in favour of stronger

:22:54.:22:56.

controls on immigration. But beyond that, there doesn't seem

:22:57.:22:58.

to be much agreement on what our immigration system

:22:59.:23:00.

should look like once Well, today the Home Affairs Select

:23:01.:23:02.

Committee is launching a nationwide Its chair, Yvette Cooper,

:23:03.:23:06.

has been speaking this morning. Let's take a look at

:23:07.:23:10.

what she had to say. We know that immigration

:23:11.:23:13.

is important for Britain but it also has to be controlled and managed

:23:14.:23:16.

so that the system is fair, and so the public can

:23:17.:23:19.

have confidence in it Right now, that doesn't happen

:23:20.:23:21.

and public concern has steadily grown and it has consistently been

:23:22.:23:31.

among the highest concerns Often the debate about immigration

:23:32.:23:36.

has been angry and polarised and has been an excuse for some people

:23:37.:23:42.

to whip up fear or anger and divide communities,

:23:43.:23:47.

making it harder to have thoughtful discussion about the

:23:48.:23:50.

reforms that are needed. And some people have

:23:51.:23:56.

felt that they simply What do you think the referendum

:23:57.:24:05.

told us about people's opinions on immigration? I think for a lot of

:24:06.:24:09.

people it was about immigration and wanting more control. For others it

:24:10.:24:14.

wasn't and we shouldn't oversimplify it. For some people it was about

:24:15.:24:18.

sovereignty, for some people it was concerns about the economy, simply

:24:19.:24:23.

wanting change but for a lot of people it was about immigration. I

:24:24.:24:29.

think more widely, if you look at concern across the country, around

:24:30.:24:33.

half of the people in opinion polls will say that immigration benefits

:24:34.:24:36.

the economy but three quarters will say that they want the level to be

:24:37.:24:43.

lower. A mixture of opinions, in favour of coming in and staying out.

:24:44.:24:51.

You seem to have all of the information. The enquiry is going to

:24:52.:24:55.

look at three things. On Brexit, what does it mean? What kinds of

:24:56.:25:00.

controls do people want? What sorts of reforms could you have? Sometimes

:25:01.:25:05.

people have talked about work permits, points-based systems,

:25:06.:25:10.

controls on low skilled migration, free movement. There is a series of

:25:11.:25:15.

different things. We know people want change, but what kind of

:25:16.:25:19.

change? People don't have a voice in that because there is no government

:25:20.:25:23.

consultation happening. We want another Trinity for people across

:25:24.:25:26.

the country to get involved in the debate. -- and opportunity. When you

:25:27.:25:34.

look at Brexit and its effects, is it about Loring the number of

:25:35.:25:37.

immigrants coming here? It is going to be open to whatever anybody wants

:25:38.:25:43.

to raise with us. If people across the UK say that isn't what we voted

:25:44.:25:48.

for in the referendum, even if we voted Leave, and a lot of people say

:25:49.:25:52.

we are happy with immigration, then that is what you advise the

:25:53.:25:58.

government to do? I wouldn't expect that to be the conclusion but we

:25:59.:26:02.

should have a chance to have the debate. Would you admit that you

:26:03.:26:07.

didn't know what was going on in your own constituency and nor did

:26:08.:26:12.

many Labour MPs. Your seat is in Normington. If you look at the vote,

:26:13.:26:18.

63% voted leave, would you say that you are out of touch with your

:26:19.:26:22.

constituents? No, because I knew people were concerned about

:26:23.:26:25.

immigration. But you did nothing about it. And they were concerned

:26:26.:26:30.

about the EU as well. That's one of the reasons why I thought, even

:26:31.:26:34.

before the referendum, that we should have more restrictions on

:26:35.:26:38.

free movement and I argued that before the referendum because I

:26:39.:26:42.

think the real concern in an area like mine is immigration being

:26:43.:26:48.

exploited by employers using it to undercut wages and jobs. This isn't

:26:49.:26:53.

about one constituency. It is a place to start. It is about all over

:26:54.:27:00.

the country. You are a Labour MP and it is a start and David Miliband

:27:01.:27:06.

also said that you recognise the problem of too many low skilled

:27:07.:27:09.

migrants from Eastern Europe but were not prepared to end freedom of

:27:10.:27:14.

movement, were you? I called for reforms to freedom of movement

:27:15.:27:16.

because I thought we should have that within the EU, that is

:27:17.:27:20.

something I have always thought. David Cameron asked for that and did

:27:21.:27:24.

not get it. We had that debate in the referendum, but we know that the

:27:25.:27:30.

Brexit negotiations are going to start, the key thing is what our

:27:31.:27:34.

people are going to want from it? My view is that we shouldn't be arguing

:27:35.:27:38.

to carry on with free movement, there have been a series of issues.

:27:39.:27:42.

We should be looking at what controls people want. I don't want

:27:43.:27:47.

to prejudge what has to be a cross-party enquiry and a different

:27:48.:27:51.

kind of enquiry. Select committees don't normally do this kind of

:27:52.:27:54.

enquiry and we will go around the country listening to people's views

:27:55.:27:59.

and see if we can build a consensus. Often it has been too divided. And

:28:00.:28:03.

within the Labour Party because you say you recognise some of the

:28:04.:28:06.

concerns and would like restrictions on freedom of movement but Jeremy

:28:07.:28:13.

Corbyn, Diane Abbott and Emily form bree believes that immigration has

:28:14.:28:16.

been hugely beneficial, they have the figures to back it up, so how

:28:17.:28:21.

does Labour square that? You think the numbers should come down and

:28:22.:28:25.

they don't. I disagree with Jeremy and Diane on that and that's

:28:26.:28:30.

something I've said for some time. So does the party have an agreed

:28:31.:28:37.

position on the issue on which you are doing the enquiry? Party has to

:28:38.:28:40.

have its processes to make the decision and that is for the front

:28:41.:28:44.

bench but what we are trying to do is a backbench select committee

:28:45.:28:47.

enquiry where we are not driven by the front bench positions, whether

:28:48.:28:51.

that's what the government says or the Labour front bench day. We

:28:52.:28:56.

listen to evidence from around the country and try and pull together

:28:57.:28:59.

what a consensus should be. I agree that immigration has benefited,

:29:00.:29:05.

people coming from abroad, has benefited the country for centuries,

:29:06.:29:08.

it just has to be managed so the system is fair. We've talked about

:29:09.:29:12.

immigration for a long time, people may say that we have had a

:29:13.:29:16.

referendum, not Mrs Willey on immigration but it was a big part of

:29:17.:29:19.

it for many people in favour and against, so what will be enquiry do?

:29:20.:29:26.

-- not necessarily. There are two processes, one where the government

:29:27.:29:28.

gets a position on freedom of movement, it doesn't have one. The

:29:29.:29:32.

government says it wants to restrict freedom of movement. It has not

:29:33.:29:38.

given us any detail. Labour needs a national policy forum and must come

:29:39.:29:41.

up with what it wants to replace freedom of movement. Freedom of

:29:42.:29:45.

movement has gone, it is part of the Treaty of Lisbon, we will be out in

:29:46.:29:49.

two years, so all of the parties need a replacement. The process of

:29:50.:29:54.

democratic, liberal minded politicians trying to hear and also

:29:55.:29:58.

heal what is coming from working class communities. We have this kind

:29:59.:30:04.

of euphemism, concerned about migration. I come from a town where

:30:05.:30:09.

there hasn't been a lot of immigration but it is now the target

:30:10.:30:13.

of Ukip, they are apparently going to stand in the by-election. I know

:30:14.:30:17.

how migration has played with my dad's generation. It seemed to them

:30:18.:30:22.

that what was being said is that we have destroyed your union rights and

:30:23.:30:27.

many services you rely on and here is the ideal worker, somebody with

:30:28.:30:33.

no writes, no right to vote, and we need to be able to go to them and

:30:34.:30:37.

say, we have an answer, a clear political answer that allows you to

:30:38.:30:42.

be comfortable with what are inevitable high levels of migration

:30:43.:30:45.

with or without the EU. Do you think Jeremy Corbyn has been

:30:46.:30:53.

wrong to say he is not worried, relaxed about numbers, for those

:30:54.:30:56.

communities you talked about? He specifically said, somebody put to

:30:57.:30:59.

him, is there going to be a numbers thing? I think you don't start out

:31:00.:31:03.

from a number. You would then have to go to a General Hospital across

:31:04.:31:08.

the road in London and say which of the Greek, Italian or Spanish nurses

:31:09.:31:11.

you don't want to be there. You start from the principle of

:31:12.:31:14.

reengaging with people's genuine concerns. Thank you very much,

:31:15.:31:16.

Yvette Cooper. Fresh splits have emerged

:31:17.:31:22.

in the Corbynite campaigning organisation, Momentum,

:31:23.:31:24.

which was set up in the wake of Jeremy Corbyn's election

:31:25.:31:26.

as Labour leader in 2015. The power struggle has placed

:31:27.:31:31.

a question mark over the future of the organisation and those

:31:32.:31:34.

close to Jeremy Corbyn fear the emergence of what they call

:31:35.:31:36.

a "parallel party". Momentum emerged just over a year

:31:37.:31:49.

ago, following Jeremy Corbyn' elections. Now at the centre of a

:31:50.:31:53.

power struggle t has over 20,000 members and tens of thousands more

:31:54.:31:57.

on its valuable data base, currently in the hands of its founder. Join

:31:58.:32:03.

Momentum, let's build our movement. It is a great campaigning tool and

:32:04.:32:08.

played a crucial role in helping get Jeremy Corbyn re-elected in the

:32:09.:32:13.

summer. But now, so-called younger movementists, complain of a takeover

:32:14.:32:19.

by older sectarianists. After a vote last Saturday handed power to a few

:32:20.:32:23.

dozen delegates, rather than giving thousands of members a vote in

:32:24.:32:28.

shaping Momentum's future direction. One on the winning side was Jill

:32:29.:32:31.

Mountford from the Alliance For Workers' Liberty. She is a member of

:32:32.:32:36.

Momentum's ruling committee but was ex#13e8d from the Labour Party. What

:32:37.:32:40.

direction does she want Momentum to move in? I want it to pryer

:32:41.:32:46.

advertise a campaign against austerity, against social inequality

:32:47.:32:50.

and a campaign that rises the idea that solidarity wants working class

:32:51.:32:53.

people fighting for a better national health service a better

:32:54.:32:57.

welfare state. For the public ownership of the utilities, of the

:32:58.:33:00.

banks of the railways. These are the things that Momentum should be

:33:01.:33:04.

campaigning for now. But some activists fear this could lead to a

:33:05.:33:10.

takeover of Momentum. One member of Jeremy Corbyn's office told me,

:33:11.:33:15.

"Momentum is starting to look like a parallel political party", describe

:33:16.:33:19.

Saturday's result as "extremely problem attic." Momentum's women's

:33:20.:33:24.

rep, Laura Murray was at the meeting and was horrified and wrote that the

:33:25.:33:28.

"Magsal committee was like a doughnut with a desire for change

:33:29.:33:32.

with a sticky centre of angry socialist stalwarts. She said the:

:33:33.:33:47.

Professor Cecile Wright was also at the meeting. I'm not quite sure

:33:48.:33:56.

whether we have lost a great deal. The thing is, members will still

:33:57.:34:01.

participate in the activities. I would have preferred the greater

:34:02.:34:05.

participation of one member one vote. Because, it's an in accord

:34:06.:34:11.

with what Momentum stands for. So, without wishing to reference the

:34:12.:34:15.

people's front of Judaea here, could this potential split of the

:34:16.:34:18.

left-of-centre left, be good news for the centre left? I don't think

:34:19.:34:23.

this is really good news for anyone in the Labour Party. Jeremy Corbyn

:34:24.:34:27.

has said we are on general election footing and Momentum who have

:34:28.:34:31.

brought in lots of new supporters in the party through Jeremy Corbyn's

:34:32.:34:34.

leadership have spent six weeks arguing about a meeting about a

:34:35.:34:37.

conference that is going to be taking place in two months' time.

:34:38.:34:41.

Instead of focussing on the kind of issues that we should be foe cousin

:34:42.:34:46.

on, in the lead-up to a general election. -- focussing on. How do

:34:47.:34:52.

this develop? The left issues that there are involved in the national

:34:53.:34:55.

committee, on this occasion, they want to be part of the mainstream, a

:34:56.:34:59.

mainstream platform to talk about socialist ideas. Floss desire

:35:00.:35:05.

whatsoever to be a Momentum party. But even the prospect of some

:35:06.:35:13.

Trotskyists being handed power to shape Momentum is already proving a

:35:14.:35:14.

contentious issue. We're joined now by Luke Akehurst

:35:15.:35:17.

who is secretary of Labour First, And spaul with us. Paul it was

:35:18.:35:31.

writeden in August that Trotskyists were infiltrating Momentum. And the

:35:32.:35:37.

Corbyn said he was pedalling conspiracy theories. The person

:35:38.:35:40.

there, Jill Mountford is not a member of the Labour Party. How she

:35:41.:35:45.

could have been infiltrating Labour by Momentum is difficult to see.

:35:46.:35:49.

Vieia. Why is this happening? In response to this big bust-up that

:35:50.:35:53.

happened in summer, Momentum was trying to gits act #20g9. The way it

:35:54.:35:57.

was trying to do -- get its act together. It was two fold. One

:35:58.:36:02.

member one vote and having an app, like on your cell phone to vote for

:36:03.:36:06.

things that you wanted. What is it there to do? To avoid tiny groups of

:36:07.:36:12.

he enactment Trotskyists from the 1970s taking over. That's their key

:36:13.:36:18.

skill. Are they trying to do that? Well, look some are not Trotskyists.

:36:19.:36:21.

What does that lady call them in the article there? You know a sticky

:36:22.:36:27.

centre of older people obsessed with sectarian methodology. Socialist

:36:28.:36:34.

stalwarts People who are obsessed with anti-Zionism, people obsessed

:36:35.:36:36.

with what we call single issue politics. So it is not just the

:36:37.:36:42.

small - some are not Trotskyists, some are rampant supporters of

:36:43.:36:45.

Vladimir Putin. And a lot of them are not in the Labour Party. We

:36:46.:36:49.

should - Momentum I'm a member of Momentum. The point if you are

:36:50.:36:53.

infiltrating, you are not in the Labour Party but you want to get

:36:54.:36:59.

into T The point of Momentum. It has a tiny apparatus and cannot police

:37:00.:37:02.

itself the way a party K one of the reasons why people like me joined

:37:03.:37:07.

it, is you have Labour First, you saw them there, we need an

:37:08.:37:11.

organisation in Labour that broadly supports Jeremy's politics. I need

:37:12.:37:15.

to bring him in. What due make of it? Well -- do you make? It is quite

:37:16.:37:20.

extraordinary. For people on my moderate wing of the Labour Party,

:37:21.:37:24.

we sat back, watching the spectacle of an organisation that just

:37:25.:37:28.

delivered us a second leadership election victory for Jeremy Corbyn,

:37:29.:37:32.

ripping itself apart over the most obscure issues of internal policy

:37:33.:37:37.

making. I don't understand why an inTesche grouping within the Labour

:37:38.:37:40.

Party needs -- an internal grouping within the Labour Party needs to

:37:41.:37:42.

have conferences and policy making. That's the job of the Labour Party.

:37:43.:37:46.

I don't understand why they didn't listen to what Tom Watson said in

:37:47.:37:51.

the summer. He said "These Trotskyists groups up to this,

:37:52.:37:55.

Momentum could straightforwardly say the Labour Party has expelled you

:37:56.:37:58.

because you are a member of an entryist organisation, you have no

:37:59.:38:02.

place in a group whose primary function is to operate inside the

:38:03.:38:06.

Labour Party." They didn't listen and made a rod for their own back.

:38:07.:38:11.

The daughter of the Unite Chief of Staff, Andrew Murray, a leading

:38:12.:38:16.

member of Momentum, she said of trod skiism "We would be engaging in

:38:17.:38:20.

collective self-denial if we were to downplay its prevalence in

:38:21.:38:25.

Momentum." And goes on to talk bits vocal, disruptive, overbearing but

:38:26.:38:29.

they have won key positions in the regional commented and comments "The

:38:30.:38:34.

sectarian attitude taken by Trotskyite groups within Momentum is

:38:35.:38:37.

destructive in our movement? I would say that's broadly right. What I

:38:38.:38:43.

would finish is what you said, although slightly less VIP

:38:44.:38:47.

dictively. Momentum needs to become ready to be an affiliated society

:38:48.:38:51.

for Labour. Everybody has to be in the Labour Party, and confirm to

:38:52.:38:55.

Labour Party rules, and if somebody breaks Labour rules as for example,

:38:56.:39:02.

Jackie Watson was doomed to have done, so she's suspended from the

:39:03.:39:06.

party. So a modern Tribune group? Yes but not like Tribune in this

:39:07.:39:11.

sense, we need to be a network, observe, broad and diverse. Would

:39:12.:39:17.

that satisfy you? Well, yes, I don't - I think it is fine for

:39:18.:39:22.

organisations with particular left-wing policy stance that want to

:39:23.:39:25.

take Labour in a particular direction to exist inside the Labour

:39:26.:39:30.

Party, as long as they are not providing a bridgehead for people

:39:31.:39:33.

whose loyalty is to another party. You think they are. . So Jill

:39:34.:39:39.

Mountford she is a members of Alliance For Workers' Liberty, she

:39:40.:39:42.

was expelled from the Labour Party for that. It was a separate

:39:43.:39:46.

political party registered on the Electoral Commission. It is blatant

:39:47.:39:50.

in its wish to enter into the Labour Party and recruit people and try to

:39:51.:39:55.

take it over. Were you with David Aaron Viv, a former member of the

:39:56.:39:59.

Communist Party of Great Britain. He said "Labour is just a carcass for

:40:00.:40:03.

the trots to feast off." I don't think it is that far gone but if it

:40:04.:40:08.

car advice on at this level that's had you it'll end up. I think the

:40:09.:40:13.

party is in healthier state below the national level, where Momentum

:40:14.:40:16.

as a whole is being pushed back. Being pushed back? Being pushed back

:40:17.:40:24.

at regional conferences and constituency parties AGMs. The

:40:25.:40:28.

people on my side of the party are in fine fettle. You are in Momentum.

:40:29.:40:35.

Tell us what it is like. Buzz Feed published an account of a meeting,

:40:36.:40:39.

it involved 18 members of the national committee, including the

:40:40.:40:43.

fire union boss, pretty much on the hard left along with for people on

:40:44.:40:48.

the Trotskyite group, Mack 2, which you have referred to. How many are

:40:49.:40:54.

---ing Mc-2. How many are in this appliance, I don't think you would

:40:55.:40:58.

need a double Devon and Cornwall bus. -- Alliance For Workers'

:40:59.:41:09.

Liberty and Labour Party Marxists. I think that's Red Labour. I have

:41:10.:41:12.

tried to research. My short answer, I have no idea. I have never been to

:41:13.:41:18.

a meeting. Why did you join them? Out of solidarity. The majority of

:41:19.:41:22.

new members, the energy that they brought, whilst you are right, that

:41:23.:41:29.

some of our local constituency party is increedably vibrant and include

:41:30.:41:33.

people from all parts of the country but to get things done you need to

:41:34.:41:36.

have some form of local organisation. But I can tell you

:41:37.:41:40.

this, if Jill Mountford is not allowed into the Labour Party and I

:41:41.:41:45.

cannot see her in short order being allowed to be in it and remains an

:41:46.:41:50.

expelled member of the party and remains in Momentum I will not

:41:51.:41:53.

remain it and nor will, I can tell you thousands of us. This will be

:41:54.:41:57.

sorted in the direction of party loyalty, discipline and a moving on,

:41:58.:42:00.

very quickly. Well, I hope it is sorted. Because it is really

:42:01.:42:05.

confusing. Me, too, actually. It is like the People's Front of Judaea.

:42:06.:42:12.

What does PC stand for? Provisional committee. Even they said it was a

:42:13.:42:20.

coup I looked it up. People need to look at the other faction of

:42:21.:42:22.

Momentum and the background of people. Certainly in terms of family

:42:23.:42:27.

background but Laura Murray's dad, is or was on the Poll it Borough of

:42:28.:42:33.

the Communist Party of Britain. There is an element of Stalinists

:42:34.:42:36.

Trotskyism going on here. That is not yet a crime. Final li, I would

:42:37.:42:44.

suggest interestingly, finally, I would suggest it is interesting,

:42:45.:42:48.

maybe from Mr Corbyn's position is Len McCluskey and him standing again

:42:49.:42:51.

for election, as I understand t you are a member of Unite. What do you

:42:52.:42:56.

make? You shouldn't underestimate the strategic pornces of this, if

:42:57.:43:01.

Len was to lose to injury articled Coin who will probably be the

:43:02.:43:06.

moderate candidate. -- Gerard. Do you think he will? I think it is

:43:07.:43:12.

possible. That it is very important in ter with the big blocks of vote

:43:13.:43:14.

that is come with Unite and I the push lined

:43:15.:43:33.

jeered Coin will be the push on labour's rights and stop interfering

:43:34.:43:36.

in the policies of the Labour Party so much.

:43:37.:43:42.

Our MPs are all elected by a simple majority in one

:43:43.:43:44.

But across the Kingdom we will now use a variety of electoral systems.

:43:45.:43:48.

But now Conservative MP, Ranil Jayawardena, wants first past

:43:49.:43:51.

the post for every election in England as he told

:43:52.:43:55.

It is first-past-the-post that gives our constituents the certainty

:43:56.:44:00.

of knowing who their representative is in this place and this is widely

:44:01.:44:04.

understood by the people of this country as well.

:44:05.:44:09.

In the referendum of 2011, first-past-the-post was strongly

:44:10.:44:12.

supported by a margin of more than 2-1.

:44:13.:44:14.

Its greatest strength, of course, is that every person has

:44:15.:44:16.

one vote and the candidate who gets the most votes wins.

:44:17.:44:20.

It does not unnecessarily burden the taxpayer with equipment

:44:21.:44:27.

and administration costs and the results are declared

:44:28.:44:29.

quickly, which provides additional certainty,

:44:30.:44:31.

And the Conservative MP Ranil Jaywardena joins me now.

:44:32.:44:40.

And we're also joined from Cardiff by Katie Ghose

:44:41.:44:42.

from the Electoral Reform Society, which campaigns for more

:44:43.:44:45.

Welcome to both of you. What are you so worried about? The way that

:44:46.:44:58.

people voted in 2011 was very clear, 2-to-1, they want to keep first past

:44:59.:45:02.

the post and bit by bit it is being chipped away. We should listen to

:45:03.:45:07.

the people. The problem with first past the post is that you can't turn

:45:08.:45:11.

the clock back, we have a range of different systems used for different

:45:12.:45:14.

elections and it gives other parties a chance. We are turning the clock

:45:15.:45:19.

back according to the wishes of the people in terms of the European

:45:20.:45:22.

Union, the people have said that we should leave, why don't we listen to

:45:23.:45:27.

what they said in 2011 by more than 2-to-1 and allow people a clear

:45:28.:45:32.

choice? What was the turnout? You have that data, not me. 67% of

:45:33.:45:38.

people voted. The turnout was lower than we would like because it wasn't

:45:39.:45:43.

a local election day. Another part of the bill was to increase turnout

:45:44.:45:48.

in local elections. What do you say in response to the idea that this is

:45:49.:45:53.

listening to the people? It is unusual to have this conversation

:45:54.:45:56.

about turning the clock back. This proposal would be a big step

:45:57.:46:00.

backwards for democracy just at a time when people are wanting to

:46:01.:46:04.

support more parties than ever before and to have a real choice.

:46:05.:46:09.

Downgrading institutions and officeholder elections that are

:46:10.:46:14.

important to the most archaic voting system would actually denied people

:46:15.:46:17.

a choice in the vote that counts and there's a reason why every new is

:46:18.:46:22.

the Jewish in an office like the police and crime commissioners have

:46:23.:46:27.

adopted a fairer system -- white is a new institution and office.

:46:28.:46:29.

Is there grounds for the voting public to change the system even

:46:30.:46:37.

further? There is definitely growing support for the growing principle

:46:38.:46:43.

that votes should be fairly reflected in Parliament. But

:46:44.:46:46.

changing the first past the post system? What's the evidence that

:46:47.:46:51.

people want change it? The latest research shows three quarters of

:46:52.:46:54.

people believe there should be a much better reflection of votes cast

:46:55.:47:00.

in the number of seats that parties get in parliaments and assemblies.

:47:01.:47:05.

We live in a multiparty democracy whichever way you luck at it,

:47:06.:47:10.

although Labour the Tories dominate. In 2011, they got two thirds of the

:47:11.:47:18.

vote. This is about whether we want political parties to be able to

:47:19.:47:24.

stage deals up, like, sadly, the coalition, which is thankfully a

:47:25.:47:28.

rarity. Was the coalition a mistake? I want a majority government so that

:47:29.:47:33.

the people know... That was first past the post. It is a rarity.

:47:34.:47:39.

People need a clear choice. People knew what Tony Blair was going to

:47:40.:47:43.

achieve, they can make a clear choice and kick out a government and

:47:44.:47:49.

they can't do that with PR. That is simple, everybody understands first

:47:50.:47:52.

past the post. When you look at the other ways of voting, the

:47:53.:47:56.

alternative vote, single transferable vote, I'm not sure I

:47:57.:47:59.

could give you a definitive expiration of each of them. People

:48:00.:48:05.

understand first past the post. People understand and are coping

:48:06.:48:08.

extremely well with a variety of systems that we have in place in the

:48:09.:48:13.

UK and I don't think it would be for any of us to say to Scottish or

:48:14.:48:16.

Welsh voters and people who voted in the London assembly elections that

:48:17.:48:21.

they can't cope. I didn't say they can't cope, they may say they prefer

:48:22.:48:27.

a simple system. There is no evidence and certainly not a

:48:28.:48:31.

groundswell for people to stay with the status quo. The two choice

:48:32.:48:37.

system, supplementary vote for the mayor and police commissioners. If

:48:38.:48:43.

you have quite a lot of executive power, it is important to have the

:48:44.:48:47.

broad support of your community and that is why the two choice system,

:48:48.:48:51.

the supplementary vote system, was introduced, so people could have

:48:52.:48:59.

legitimacy. So there is no evidence? The Electoral Reform Society is

:49:00.:49:03.

supposedly a charity but they are not very independent at all. Bernard

:49:04.:49:07.

Jenkins looked at this before as chairman of the public

:49:08.:49:11.

administration committee. Not independent, based on what? Katie

:49:12.:49:15.

has previously sought selection as a Labour Party candidate. Most Labour

:49:16.:49:20.

MPs support first past the post. It is important not to allow the

:49:21.:49:23.

society to speak for the whole country. The people who spoke for

:49:24.:49:27.

the country are the people who spoke in the referendum. You must answer

:49:28.:49:30.

that point that you are not independent. I am proud to be the

:49:31.:49:36.

chief executive of a nonpartisan organisation, every day of the week

:49:37.:49:41.

we work with parties from all just make people from all parties and

:49:42.:49:43.

none. We are concerned about voter choice. People have changed voting

:49:44.:49:49.

patterns for a long time, wanting to support a wider range of parties

:49:50.:49:53.

than ever before. The problem is that we are trying to cram what

:49:54.:49:57.

worked for a 2-party system when most of us voted for Conservative or

:49:58.:50:01.

Labour, doesn't work any more. People are wanting a real choice in

:50:02.:50:06.

their politics and that's what myself and my organisation are all

:50:07.:50:11.

about. Why do you think it would be particularly appropriate in these

:50:12.:50:14.

turbulent times? People want to be able to decide on a host of issues,

:50:15.:50:18.

how the country is taken forward and how their local area is governed. We

:50:19.:50:24.

haven't discussed giving people a super Thursday, a chance to shape

:50:25.:50:28.

local government across every area of government, which works in other

:50:29.:50:33.

countries and we would save over ?20 million, and it would give people a

:50:34.:50:36.

decisive decision over how the country is governed. That's it,

:50:37.:50:45.

thank you. Interesting development being reported by Bloomberg, the

:50:46.:50:48.

McDonald's Corporation saying is going to create a new holding

:50:49.:50:55.

company based in the UK, moving from Luxembourg and paying tax on the

:50:56.:50:59.

royalties it receives from food sales everywhere in the world

:51:00.:51:03.

outside the United States. Interesting development. HMRC may be

:51:04.:51:04.

opening the champagne. Now, it's that time of year

:51:05.:51:06.

when the pundits get out their crystal balls and start

:51:07.:51:09.

making predictions for But if you'd bet this time 12 months

:51:10.:51:11.

ago on Britain voting to leave the European Union, or

:51:12.:51:16.

Donald Trump being elected President of spare cash to enjoy this

:51:17.:51:19.

Christmas. So, what could the new

:51:20.:51:25.

year have in store? For instance, could 2017 be the year

:51:26.:51:27.

when we see Jeremy Corbyn walk We'll be discussing that with our

:51:28.:51:30.

Guest of the Day in a moment. But first here's a look back on some

:51:31.:51:34.

of the more unexpected Just as warning, there's some flash

:51:35.:51:37.

photography in the mix. Good God. I will be advocating vote

:51:38.:51:48.

lead. -- Leave. The British people have spoken and the answer is, we're

:51:49.:51:59.

out. Extraordinary moment. Brexit! I think the country requires fresh

:52:00.:52:02.

leadership to take it in this direction. I no longer have

:52:03.:52:12.

confidence in his leadership and he then dismissed me from the Shadow

:52:13.:52:16.

Cabinet. I don't think Jeremy is in a position to provide the leadership

:52:17.:52:20.

we need to be able to offer the voters and the country. Keep Corbyn!

:52:21.:52:28.

Jeremy Corbyn is elected the leader of the Labour Party. After just 18

:52:29.:52:35.

days in charge it is reported that Diane Jaynes has quit as leader of

:52:36.:52:39.

Ukip. There's never been a US presidential campaign quite like it.

:52:40.:52:46.

OK! They have just called Florida for Donald Trump.

:52:47.:52:54.

An amazing evening, it's been an amazing two year period and I love

:52:55.:53:02.

this country. Thank you, thank you very much. You don't often hear that

:53:03.:53:09.

in American presidential candidates, loving America!

:53:10.:53:11.

What memories, and that was just the short version.

:53:12.:53:13.

Paul Mason is still with us and we're joined now

:53:14.:53:15.

by Philip Collins from The Times who was also a former

:53:16.:53:18.

Have the odds improved on Mr Corbyn becoming Prime Minister? I don't

:53:19.:53:24.

think so, unfortunately. If you are 16 points behind at this stage it is

:53:25.:53:30.

probably not likely. To be fair to Mr Corbyn, you must say that

:53:31.:53:33.

Labour's problems go back before he was the leader, it is going to be

:53:34.:53:37.

difficult for Labour to win if it can't regain a significant number of

:53:38.:53:40.

seats in Scotland and it lost that before he became the leader. Indeed.

:53:41.:53:47.

So the task is very difficult. The polls don't have a great track

:53:48.:53:51.

record but they have often been wrong within a margin of error, like

:53:52.:53:55.

the US election and they were not that inaccurate on the popular vote

:53:56.:54:00.

there. They would have to be really wrong about Mr Corbyn for him to be

:54:01.:54:05.

the next Prime Minister. I don't think they're wrong, but they may

:54:06.:54:08.

underestimate Labour support in England and Wales by a bit. At the

:54:09.:54:12.

moment that spy will be where we are. -- that's probably where we

:54:13.:54:17.

are. Britain leaves the European Union, that is big and we are in a

:54:18.:54:23.

new crisis which is going to get worse next year. What Labour then

:54:24.:54:29.

has to do is basically come to power as an insurgency and say that we

:54:30.:54:35.

have a solution, if the Tory government falls apart. They are to

:54:36.:54:39.

be screaming at each other in number ten over this Boris Johnson thing.

:54:40.:54:43.

As soon as they try to do anything positive they fall apart. That's how

:54:44.:54:47.

I see Labour getting into a position to form a government. In order to

:54:48.:54:52.

suggest that Labour could form a government you have two postulate

:54:53.:54:56.

some kind of catastrophe for the Theresa May government over the next

:54:57.:54:59.

year or so and the obvious way to do that is to say that leaving the EU

:55:00.:55:05.

will be a disaster for the country. I don't take the apocalypse view, I

:55:06.:55:09.

don't think it's going to be a disaster and even if there is

:55:10.:55:12.

economic detriment come I don't think it is going to be a decisive

:55:13.:55:16.

event like black Wednesday, I think it will be incremental and slow, so

:55:17.:55:19.

the political consequences when to be as slow and -- as immediate. Can

:55:20.:55:30.

we see Mr Corbyn in the same anti-mainstream vein as Donald

:55:31.:55:34.

Trump? I wouldn't put him there because if you look at immigration,

:55:35.:55:38.

he hasn't made a single attempt to be populist about it. I don't think

:55:39.:55:43.

the left in general is populist at the moment but it has answers about

:55:44.:55:48.

what Britain must become as a post-Brexit society and in a world

:55:49.:55:54.

where globalisation falls apart and the European Union, our closest

:55:55.:55:58.

market, is falling apart and we have a security situation with Russia, we

:55:59.:56:04.

will need parties that can embody social justice and have historic

:56:05.:56:08.

links with working people. The idea that we had a recession, that the

:56:09.:56:13.

answer to that would be... We're going to have a recession. Let's

:56:14.:56:17.

assume we do, extraordinary to suppose that the answered to that

:56:18.:56:21.

will be Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell, when they are 20 points

:56:22.:56:25.

behind the Conservatives. It wasn't the answer in the 1930s. It seems

:56:26.:56:33.

unlikely that any... I don't think any leader, any leadership team has

:56:34.:56:36.

come back from the kind of deficits that Labour is running against the

:56:37.:56:42.

Tories. The reaction against what you could call recessionary levels

:56:43.:56:50.

of unemployment in Italy, Spain and Portugal, especially places like

:56:51.:56:53.

France, has been a move to the right, the hard right rather than

:56:54.:56:57.

the hard left. That's been because the social Democratic party in

:56:58.:57:00.

France for example has proved incapable of moving to the left.

:57:01.:57:04.

They tried when they came to power and then they gave it up. They tried

:57:05.:57:13.

with Francois Mitterrand in 92. Places where radical left solutions

:57:14.:57:19.

have been tried, like Greece, they may have been defeated by the IMF

:57:20.:57:22.

but they won two elections and remained in power, an important

:57:23.:57:29.

shield for the Greek people. 20% for the radical left in Spain, three

:57:30.:57:32.

major cities are being run well by them. That is what Labour would have

:57:33.:57:44.

done if Jeremy were not in power. Is Jeremy Corbyn a transitional figure

:57:45.:57:47.

for Labour to something else, something on the left? Very

:57:48.:57:51.

probably, it is probable the next leader will be on the left, not

:57:52.:57:57.

quite where Jeremy Corbyn is. If I was 67 and if someone suggested

:57:58.:58:03.

anything other ban me being transitional why would be surprised.

:58:04.:58:05.

We will need decades to reinvent Labour as a radical left party.

:58:06.:58:12.

Decades? You said that there is a recession coming. The recession is

:58:13.:58:17.

predicted next year by the OBR. No, they didn't. Much more important, we

:58:18.:58:22.

should have an election as soon as possible. Labour have to keep saying

:58:23.:58:26.

that, I believe we can win it. Thank you.

:58:27.:58:28.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:58:29.:58:32.

I can't remember the? Back -- the question!

:58:33.:58:37.

What is the correct answer? I don't know where it is. Just about

:58:38.:58:51.

managing, the Jams. You should have told me! That's the point of the

:58:52.:58:53.

quiz. The one o'clock news is starting

:58:54.:58:54.

over on BBC One now. I am on This Week tonight

:58:55.:58:56.

with Liz Kendall, Michael Portillo, Dermot Murnagan and

:58:57.:59:01.

Miriam Gonzalez Durantez. He's a scientist.

:59:02.:59:09.

Brilliant, apparently.

:59:10.:59:12.

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn are joined by writer and broadcaster Paul Mason. They look at what sort of Brexit plan the government will publish and hear from Home Affairs Select Committee chair Yvette Cooper about her new immigration inquiry.

There is also an examination of the divisions emerging in the campaign group Momentum.

The Times journalist Philip Collins talks about whether Jeremy Corbyn could become prime minister, and Conservative MP Ranil Jayawardena explains why all elections in the UK should be decided by the first past the post system.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS