13/01/2017 Daily Politics


13/01/2017

Andrew is joined by Isabel Oakeshott and Gaby Hinsliff. They get the thoughts of former US ambassador Christopher Meyer on the forthcoming Trump presidency.


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Senior Labour MP, Tristram Hunt, announces

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he's leaving politics to head up the V museum in London.

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He insists he's not trying to rock the Labour boat

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but his decision triggers a tricky by-election for Jeremy Corbyn.

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We report on the power struggle going on within Momentum -

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the grassroots organisation set up to support Mr Corbyn's leadership.

:01:02.:01:07.

Just one week before he takes office, what do we know

:01:08.:01:13.

about Donald Trump's plans for the presidency?

:01:14.:01:15.

And you might know what hard Brexit is

:01:16.:01:18.

but what about grey Brexit, clean Brexit and red,

:01:19.:01:20.

We've got the Daily Politics guide to Brexit terminology.

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All that in the next hour and with us for the duration

:01:36.:02:02.

Guardian columnist, Gaby Hinsliff and Isabel Oakeshott, political

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So, earlier this morning the senior Labour politician Tristram

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Hunt confirmed he will stand down as a Member of Parliament to become

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the director of the Victoria and Albert Museum in London.

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In a letter to his local party, Mr Hunt says the job was too

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good to turn down and that he has "no desire to rock

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the boat" and that "anyone who interprets my decision to leave

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Let's talk to our political correspondent, Carole Walker.

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He says he is not rocking the boat and we shouldn't interpret it that

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way but that's what many people will do. There is no doubt that tris Tam

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hunted's departure is a big loss to the Labour Party. People on all

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sides of the party know that. 'S charismatic, well-known figure and

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his departure follow that of Jamie Reid, another Labour MP who is also

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standing down. Triering a by-election in Copeland. Labour will

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have to face a tricky by-election in Stoke. As you mention there, tris

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Tam hunt in his resignation letter says he doesn't want to rock the

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boat and talked about how his new role in the V will enable him to

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combine his passion for education, his train public engagement but he

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talks, too, about his frustration of 23409 being able to tackle

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inequality and poverty particulars will you now Labour is out of power

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and he has been hugely critical in the past of Jeremy Corbyn's

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leadership. He was opposition spokesman on education and stood

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down when Corbyn cosh became leader. -- Corbyn cosh became leader. After

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the referendum in the summer, he wrote scathing criticism on Jeremy

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Corbyn's role during the referendum campaign and said that Labour voters

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need a different Labour Leader. He called on the Labour Party to act,

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this was, of course before Jeremy Corbyn fought and successfully

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stayed on as Labour Leader. I think the concern from many of those who

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used to be in the mainstream of the Labour Party, who now feel that they

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are out in the cold under Jeremy Corbyn, will see this as a further

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sign of how disillusioned many who represent that wing of the party

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have become and I think it'll reinforce the concerns that the

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Labour Party is shifting, in Jeremy Corbyn' direction, and that many

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those whose views are different to the Labour Leader, now see their

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futures outside Parliament. All right, thank you very much for that.

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At least it is windy, but it is good to seat sun is out. It was snowing

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when I came in. Gaby, not entirely unexpected? No but still a shock. He

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has decided to stop banging his head against a brick wall. The Labour

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Party is not going in his preferred direction, Corbyn cosh is not going

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anywhere, so leaves MPs with a choice - do you sit around and be a

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prophet of doom for the next ten years or decide there are other ways

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to serve the public. It is only 18 months since a general election and

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there use to be a convention you don't b bail out in the middle of a

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Parliament. Some will see it as dereliction of duty. But a problem

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already a tricky by-election in Copeland in the North west, where

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the Labour majority is small. Now another by-election in Stoke in the

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Midlands much his majority is a little bit bigger there, but Ukip

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and the Conservatives were strong seconds, and it was baying

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eurosceptic constituency in the referendum. I don't think any

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additional by-election is welcome by Jeremy Corbyn at the moment.

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Certainly, Tristram hunt's departure is a damning excitement on the

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leadership. It is not going to be the last. What is happening is that

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recruitment agencies are actually swirling, like vultures, over the

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most talented members of the moderate wing of the Parliamently

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Labour Party. And they are getting a lot of very tempting approaches. And

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I think that there will be other high-profile departures because for

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many Labour MPs, who are frustrated with the direction that Jeremy

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Corbyn has taken, there are other ways they feel they could more

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effectively do a job to serve the public. Well, Paul Flynn, a Labour

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MP tweeted, "Thinker, Tristram schaunt stumbled into the alien

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world of politics, blinked, baffled, he retreats back into his natural

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habitat of academia." Mr Flynn then deleted that tweet, for reasons that

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some may find obvious, others woented.

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-- others won't. The point, I'm not sure he was make, but point that

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comes out of this is that someone like Tristram Hunt had a hinterland

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beyond politics. He was a distinguished academic, written many

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books. And Jamie Reid had habiter land, I think he has gone into Seoul

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afield. If we want to look at the Labour MPs in the moderate wing of

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the Labour Party, who could have other jobs to go to? I would look at

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people who have track records in other fields, talents they can use,

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most MPs came from something. It is interesting to me that both of those

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two have small children. I think if you have a family that you are away

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from during the week, there is a question of - what am I really doing

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this for? Could I be, frankly, having a nicer life all around and

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not banging my head against a brick wall. I think there are a lot of MPs

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who feel the same as Hunt, intensely frustrated, the word he used in his

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letters but don't have job offers at the door. I guess the truth that

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Paul Flynn was trying to get at and maybe why he deleted the tweet, that

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Mr Corbyn and people around him, may be glad to see the back of him? Yes,

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I'm sure they are, they will, in their small-minded world see this as

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some kind of little victory but at the end of the day none of it looks,

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good, does it? We shall see. Politicians always like to be

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at the cutting edge and we learn today that one party leader

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is planning to give an address b) French Presidential

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candidate Jean-Luc Melenchon? At the end of the show Gaby and

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Isabel will give us the correct Now, after a tempestuous press

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conference and lurid claims of compromising material

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in the hands of the Russians, President-elect Trump is putting

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the finishing touches to his plan Next Friday Mr Trump

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will become Mr President, at the traditional inauguration

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ceremony on the steps So what do we know about how

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Donald Trump plans to govern as President and what impact

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will his nominations Donald Trump's choice

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for Secretary of State - the American equivalent

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of the Foreign Secretary - is Rex Tillerson, the former chief

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of Exxon Mobil who is said to have had a close relationship

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with Vladimir Putin. He has done a lot of business in

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Russia Tillerson raised eyebrows yesterday

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by saying the US would have to send "a clear signal" that China should

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be barred from accessing islands it has built in disputed territory

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in the South China Sea. James Mattis, Mr Trump's choice

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for Secretary of Defense, is known for taking a hard-line

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position on Iran and yesterday said the US needs to "forge a strategy

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to checkmate Iran's goal But critical rhetoric of Nato

:09:59.:10:03.

was scaled back yesterday, with General Mattis saying he wants

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to see the US maintaining the "strongest possible

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relationship" with America's "most Donald Trump has chosen several

:10:14.:10:20.

climate change sceptics to join his top team,

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including Rick Perry as Energy Secretary,

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who described climate change I guess that doesn't make him a

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sceptic, but a denier. And what about the President-elect's

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key election pledge - to build a wall on the border with

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Mexico? In his press conference on

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Wednesday, Mr Trump confirmed work on the wall would start soon

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after his inauguration, with the central American state

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reimbursing the costs later. Donald Trump also used his press

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conference to welcome his If Putin likes Donald Trump,

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guess what, folks, that's called Now, I don't know that

:10:58.:11:06.

I'm going to get along with Vladimir Putin,

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I hope I do. And if I don't, do you honestly

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believe that Hillary would be Does anybody in this room

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really believe that? We're joined now by Sir

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Give us all a break. Christopher Meyer, our former

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ambassador to the United States. Welcome back.

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I guess a lot of people will think - what is the point of continued

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Russian-American hostility, aggression, return of the kold war,

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why not have a -- return of the Cold War. Why not have a goal -

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rebuilding a relationship with the Kremlin? I think it is a very good

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goal. In and of itself there is nothing objectionable to rebuilding

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the relationship which has deteriorated seriously and actually

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is some kind of threat to world peace. I think the problem we've had

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with Trump's remarks about Russia, they tended to be linked with

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extreme scepticism with the use of Nato. You put those #20g9 and it

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becomes, I think, dangerous to the British national interest and to

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members of NATOs' interests. If, however he is going to take the

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Mattis line... And he is pro-NATO And as a military man that would be

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typical, he is in favour, he will drop the scepticism about Nato but

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still say - I'm going to work Bert with the Russians that President

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Obama did, I see no objection. Mr Trump takes over when there is

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criticism over the Obama foreign policy. Mr Obama has shown little

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interest in Europe. He has done several U-turns in the Middle East,

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indeed many say he has created a vacuum which the Kremlin have

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filled, without resolving any of the issues there and it was all meant to

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be, as part of the American pivot to the Pacific, and he hasn't really

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done that, either, as we see the growing naval power of China and

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these islands. So, he's not inheriting a form of policy, I would

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suggest, that has been a great success? I actually - I'm a bit of a

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dissident on this. I actually think will the passage of time people will

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look back on Obama's policy and say - it wasn't so stupid at all. He

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made mistakes, talking about a red line with the Syrian regime's use of

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chemical weapons, that was a mistake, he looked like he was

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wheeling back on something he himself has said but in the Middle

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East overall I don't find anything particularly objection objectionable

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about Russia a regional power in that area, taking more of the

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responsibility for outside intervention in the Syrian civil

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war. I think the United States and the United Kingdom, for that matter,

:14:09.:14:12.

other Nato Allies, have nothing to gain by getting deeply involved in

:14:13.:14:16.

what is going on in Syria. Except that on the one hand the Americans,

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you take that view, but if the American position was that Assad has

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to go but you create the circumstances where Mr Putin comes

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in as Assad's biggest backer, you are facing both ways at once There

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are contradictions. Let us not deny T I think this is the weakest area

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of Obama's foreign policy. And the UK is worse, actually on this very

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point that you just made. Something in a sense, I feel that all this

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Russian stuff is a bit like - look, there is a squirrel, let's talk

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about Russia, talk about Putin, talk about his different attitudes. It

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seems to me that everybody I have learn interested Trump's transition

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team and listen to his Secretary of State, that the real hardline he is

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going to take is against China. If I was the President in China I

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would be really worried because there has historically been a kind

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of triangular game over decades, China, Russia, United States, we saw

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that in the days of the Soviet Union. If I was a member of the

:15:21.:15:24.

foreign policy planning staff of the Chinese Foreign Minister I would be

:15:25.:15:30.

saying oh-oh, it looks like there could be a US-Russia axis which is

:15:31.:15:35.

going to develop, it might not, but it could develop and it's going to

:15:36.:15:40.

have one feature in common, and that will be a hostility towards China. I

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think the kind of Russian-Chinese raproachment vaguely seen is a

:15:51.:15:56.

fragile thing. Trump has spoken about building a 350 warship

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imperial Navy. That Navy is overwhelmingly, Wye suggest, for

:16:02.:16:06.

deployment in the Pacific. To counteract a rise of Chinese Naval

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power. If you square off the Russians, which is essentially about

:16:13.:16:16.

troop deployment, any standoff with Russia is about boots on the ground.

:16:17.:16:21.

Any standoff with China is ships in the sea, not boots on the ground. So

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there is a kind of sense in his part that let's square that off because I

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need the money to build this imperial Navy. Well, when I was in

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Washington people were talking about a 450-ship Navy which would be

:16:38.:16:41.

necessary to keep, 350 sounds relatively modest. But I agree with

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you that if you are a Naval strategist what you are worried

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about is development of the Chinese Navy, although if you are in Beijing

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you are saying we haven't had a blue waters Navy historically. Please may

:16:58.:17:03.

we have secondhand Russian aircraft carriers so we can... Only one. Only

:17:04.:17:08.

one, you are right. There may be another after that trip through the

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channel. If I was looking at my crystal ball which is particularly

:17:15.:17:23.

misty at the moment, I would say if there is a raproachment it will be

:17:24.:17:28.

fragile. Let us say it solidifies out of that triangle China becomes

:17:29.:17:36.

the loser. Do you detect any changing focus in terms of foreign

:17:37.:17:41.

policy from what Trump was saying on the campaign trail or even in the

:17:42.:17:46.

early days post the election and to what he is thinking of for a Trump

:17:47.:17:53.

administration? I think that Russia still seems to be the main theme,

:17:54.:17:56.

that there is so much noise about. I think this whole issue about what's

:17:57.:18:00.

going on in the south China seas which is getting a lot less

:18:01.:18:04.

attention in the global media, it's something I am beginning to look at

:18:05.:18:08.

at the early stages of a book on defence at the moment, it's

:18:09.:18:13.

absolutely fascinating and people don't really realise how aggressive

:18:14.:18:18.

China is getting in its strategic positioning, essentially almost kind

:18:19.:18:20.

of creating air strips built on little rocks that are nr the middle

:18:21.:18:25.

of nowhere, building up positioning which is an incredibly aggressive

:18:26.:18:28.

way of behaving. It's not getting a lot of attention at the moment but I

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am sure that is something that is going on in Trump's mind. The other

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thing we didn't really talk about, the wider context of this is what's

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going to go on in the Baltic states and clearly if the relationship

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between America and Russia is going to get any warmer that is crucial,

:18:49.:18:52.

what are Putin's intentions there? I am told that there is almost no

:18:53.:18:57.

doubt he will attempt to introduce tariffs against the Chinese. He may

:18:58.:19:01.

not get it through Congress but he is going to try? China isn't just

:19:02.:19:05.

key to his foreign policy, it's key to his domestic policy. What does

:19:06.:19:13.

Trump stand for? It's bring back jobs, make America great again, stop

:19:14.:19:17.

the country being flooded with cheap Chinese imports. That is the single

:19:18.:19:22.

most important thing in a way about - that's the single most important

:19:23.:19:24.

thing about his relationship with China, it's a trading relationship

:19:25.:19:28.

and whether he is prepared to launch really a trade war with China. Let

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me go back to the squirrel. This business of the dossier and the rest

:19:36.:19:40.

of it. What do you make of the involvement in this of MI6, not just

:19:41.:19:45.

their ex-agent but giving permission for this agent to speak to the FBI,

:19:46.:19:51.

even though he was no longer with MI6 and the involvement of a former

:19:52.:19:55.

British ambassador, as well, what do make of it? At one level it's

:19:56.:19:59.

absolutely delicious. This is wonderful stuff. Great story.

:20:00.:20:07.

Another level it feeds Russian paranoia about the wicked British.

:20:08.:20:11.

Since the days of the revolution they've been paranoid about British

:20:12.:20:14.

intelligence. They have overrated us a lot which has been useful to us, I

:20:15.:20:19.

have to say, so they will say that Chris Steel, who I have never met by

:20:20.:20:24.

the way... Donald Trump has called him a failed spy by the way. It

:20:25.:20:34.

shows that possibly we have got the worst of all the world's in this

:20:35.:20:41.

because... Upset the Russians and Donald Trump, as well. So, the idea

:20:42.:20:48.

that Tony Blair once had of straddling the Atlantic didn't quite

:20:49.:20:51.

mean this in mutual insults to the Russians on one hand and the

:20:52.:20:56.

Americans on the other. I don't know what to make of this. I am told he

:20:57.:21:04.

was a good MI6 operative. He seemed to have become obsessive as he was

:21:05.:21:07.

paid to compile this report and he seemed desperate to get the report

:21:08.:21:12.

out in some shape or form. This was a private operation, originally

:21:13.:21:16.

bankrolled by Republican billionaire who wanted to stop Trump becoming

:21:17.:21:21.

the nominee for his party. Then taken over by rich Democrats to try

:21:22.:21:27.

to stop him becoming President of the United States. This was paid for

:21:28.:21:34.

propaganda-information. Paid for is the key phrase here, because I think

:21:35.:21:38.

when you move out of a Government bureaucracy and you start going into

:21:39.:21:41.

the wider world and trying to make money running a consultancy of the

:21:42.:21:46.

kind he ran, then you are very keen if you offer your product to become

:21:47.:21:51.

known because it increases your own, you hope, reputation. So I guess his

:21:52.:21:58.

keenness to see this reach a wider audience was very much driven by

:21:59.:22:03.

perfectly normal commercial motivation because he was

:22:04.:22:06.

co-partners, being... Being paid. His company in London had been hired

:22:07.:22:10.

by an American company which in turn had been hired by first of all as I

:22:11.:22:18.

say the Republican billionaire and then the rich Democrat fat cats.

:22:19.:22:23.

Contracts will now come powering in, I assume he thought, he is running

:22:24.:22:29.

for his life! If he was such a smart MI6 operative would he not have

:22:30.:22:35.

worked that out? He had worked with - been connected with what is the

:22:36.:22:44.

one with the polonium poisoning. You would have thought if his

:22:45.:22:48.

fingerprints were over this dossier, that life would not continue as

:22:49.:22:53.

nrmal. Some would say in the Foreign Office and I can not speak for the

:22:54.:22:58.

foufs, some would say if you spend too long in MI6 you could slightly

:22:59.:23:03.

bonkers. Your former colleague, Andrew Wood say he helped bring

:23:04.:23:10.

attention to the dossier compiled by Chris Steel, by bringing attention

:23:11.:23:14.

to Senator John McCain, indeed I am told John McCain sent somebody over

:23:15.:23:18.

and was told you look for someone holding a copy of the Financial

:23:19.:23:23.

Times. Clearly they didn't meet in the Stock Exchange because that

:23:24.:23:25.

wouldn't really set you apart. Would you have done that? I don't think

:23:26.:23:34.

so. But I think this happened at some international security

:23:35.:23:37.

conference, in Canada? Correct. Who knows. It could be Andrew Wood

:23:38.:23:42.

saying to John McCain, hey, have you seen this funny report? It could be

:23:43.:23:49.

just like that. Were you subject to KGB stings when you were in Moscow,

:23:50.:23:55.

honeypot traps? I was, I am pleased to say I thought of the Queen and

:23:56.:24:00.

resisted all. No pictures. They tried three games, one was a gay

:24:01.:24:06.

assault if I can put it in those terms. The other two were

:24:07.:24:14.

heterosexual. I resisted all of them in the name of my country. They

:24:15.:24:23.

didn't resist your red socks? I didn't wear them! Thank you.

:24:24.:24:27.

What's the best way to sort out a classic political power struggle?

:24:28.:24:30.

Could it be eating cupcakes and thinking about butterflies?

:24:31.:24:36.

That, apparently, was the response of a senior figure in Momentum

:24:37.:24:40.

to a sudden plan to revamp the pro-Jeremy Corbyn campaign

:24:41.:24:45.

group's entire constitution, minutes before he was pushed out.

:24:46.:25:06.

Without so much as even a nibble of a cupcake.

:25:07.:25:08.

In what's being described as a "coup d'email",

:25:09.:25:10.

Momentum founder Jon Lansman has taken back control of

:25:11.:25:12.

the organisation which he hopes will one day affiliate

:25:13.:25:14.

Look at this Momentum members having so much fun.

:25:15.:25:34.

They are a Christian youth group in America.

:25:35.:25:38.

My choice is I stand on the rock of Jesus.

:25:39.:25:41.

I choose to be the only one for the only one.

:25:42.:25:43.

But for the organisation of the same name, in praise of Jeremy Corbyn,

:25:44.:25:46.

Jill Mountford, an Alliance For Workers' Liberties Supporter,

:25:47.:25:52.

was one of the most senior people in Momentum until three days ago.

:25:53.:25:58.

She has told the Daily Politics that a sudden shake-up this week

:25:59.:26:03.

was a coup d' e-mail to take over the organisation, with no

:26:04.:26:06.

discussion, no debate and she complained that people

:26:07.:26:08.

are being taught some appalling lessons in how you build

:26:09.:26:10.

As far as coups go and the Labour movement has had a few

:26:11.:26:21.

attempts recently, this one appears to be

:26:22.:26:23.

Here is what happened, on Tuesday night at 7.39,

:26:24.:26:26.

with no prior warning, this e-mail was sent to Momentum's

:26:27.:26:29.

Attached was a proposed new constitution, ripping up

:26:30.:26:32.

the current rules and structures, that had handed control to a few

:26:33.:26:35.

hard-left delegates last month in what some then called a coup.

:26:36.:26:40.

Within minutes of this countercoup, approval came from several members

:26:41.:26:42.

So by 8.54, just 75 minutes later, they had a majority.

:26:43.:26:49.

Just before it was time for a hot cup of cocoa and bedtime,

:26:50.:26:52.

Momentum's existing democratic structure has been dissolved.

:26:53.:26:55.

So a victory for both the man who sent the original e-mail,

:26:56.:27:02.

Momentum's founder, John Landman, who crucially maintains control

:27:03.:27:08.

of a database of members' details and his allies.

:27:09.:27:10.

I don't think we need to be talking about coups and countercoups

:27:11.:27:13.

and it is all getting a bit Game of Thrones, this is just

:27:14.:27:21.

the Labour Party where we are trying to organise for Jeremy Corbyn's

:27:22.:27:24.

Christine Shawcroft, a left-winger, seen as a moderate in the current

:27:25.:27:28.

spat was also on the scooped momentum steering committee

:27:29.:27:40.

Jeremy Corbyn put under consultation and we based

:27:41.:27:43.

the new arrangements on the results of the consultation.

:27:44.:27:45.

You basically flushed out the Trotskyists, didn't you?

:27:46.:27:47.

But the new constitution says all members of Momentum must join

:27:48.:27:51.

the Labour Party by the summer, a move endorsed yesterday

:27:52.:27:54.

I want all Momentum members to become members

:27:55.:28:01.

of the party and I want the party membership to continue to grow.

:28:02.:28:04.

So, some members of Momentum who have been expelled

:28:05.:28:07.

from the Labour Party, like Jill Mountford, could soon find

:28:08.:28:09.

In addition, so-called moderate MPs, like Hillary

:28:10.:28:12.

Benn, who staged a failed coup against Jeremy Corbyn last summer,

:28:13.:28:15.

could suffer from Momentum's growing influence.

:28:16.:28:18.

Jeremy Corbyn was asked yesterday if he would step in to

:28:19.:28:21.

defend his former Shadow Cabinet colleague, if local party activists

:28:22.:28:23.

I do not, as a leader, dictate or interfere in

:28:24.:28:29.

I want justice, I want democracy, I want fairness, I

:28:30.:28:37.

The victors of yesterday's coup d'e-mail also

:28:38.:28:39.

want Momentum to affiliate with Labour.

:28:40.:28:41.

Just ask the Communist Party who were

:28:42.:28:44.

refused entry, when they tried over half a century ago.

:28:45.:28:51.

Let the happy times roll on for these Momentum members in America

:28:52.:28:54.

but there's not much of a festive atmosphere right now, amongst Jeremy

:28:55.:28:57.

With me now is the Momentum member Paul Hilder, who was also

:28:58.:29:06.

a co-founder of the online crowd-funding platform

:29:07.:29:11.

Crowdpac and Luke Akehurst, Secretary of the centrist Labour

:29:12.:29:13.

Some are saying that this move by the Momentum chairman to impose this

:29:14.:29:28.

new constitution is like a coup, is it a coup? Absolutely not. I think

:29:29.:29:34.

that what's happened here is long overdue, actually, but they've laid

:29:35.:29:37.

stronger democratic foundations for the movement. It's happened through

:29:38.:29:41.

a democratic consultation which they had over 40% turnout in, which was

:29:42.:29:47.

more than a movement like one got in Spain in similar consultations and

:29:48.:29:52.

that consultation, that vote, found an overwhelming majority of Momentum

:29:53.:29:57.

members believing in a par days paintery model of democracy rather

:29:58.:30:02.

than the old-fashioned model of committees and so forth which some

:30:03.:30:07.

people are more attached to. What do you make of Jill Mountford doing

:30:08.:30:16.

about it's a disregard of struck sturs? The membership has

:30:17.:30:21.

demonstrated that they don't believe in the model of democracy which Jill

:30:22.:30:28.

is advocating. They believe in a more participating approach. The new

:30:29.:30:33.

constitution is fascinating, it has an election for potentially every

:30:34.:30:38.

post on that new co-ordinating group, if there is contestation of

:30:39.:30:41.

elections and this extraordinary group, 15 members selected by lot

:30:42.:30:45.

randomly from the movement as a whole who also play a role in

:30:46.:30:59.

decision-making. Sqa Isn't this what centrist figures

:31:00.:31:03.

like Tom Watson have been wanting, making with sure they clean up their

:31:04.:31:09.

act and make sure they are an aphysicalaited o and that's what

:31:10.:31:14.

they are doing? The moderate wing of the Labour Party, believes it is

:31:15.:31:18.

appropriate whether it is a faction or any of the centrist factions to

:31:19.:31:22.

be formally affiliated to the Labour Party. That's my fear, it's kind of

:31:23.:31:27.

institutionalisation of the factionalism. It's quite ridiculous

:31:28.:31:34.

that we are sat here on national TV debating the internal structures of

:31:35.:31:37.

a faction within the Labour Party. It just shouldn't be that parties

:31:38.:31:43.

within a party like that... But isn't Labour First a faction? Well,

:31:44.:31:50.

we don't have all this rigmarole of kind of branches and votes and

:31:51.:31:55.

meetings and structures that mirror the Labour Party's structure. We are

:31:56.:31:59.

a network of people... But you are a faction. People could call you a

:32:00.:32:02.

faction. We are a network of people that agree with each other. You

:32:03.:32:07.

could call that a faction. Sthant what Momentum is, except for the

:32:08.:32:12.

hard left ones? A group of people that broadly agree with each other.

:32:13.:32:16.

I have no problem with the existence of networks of people within the

:32:17.:32:19.

Labour Party that agree with each other but when that becomes

:32:20.:32:22.

fundamental to the internal dynamic of the party, that everyone feels

:32:23.:32:26.

you are either for or against Momentum and you are either in

:32:27.:32:30.

Momentum or outside, that's very you think haeltedy and a lot of Labour

:32:31.:32:33.

Party members don't want to be badged up like that. What would you

:32:34.:32:38.

say? I agree with the morns of a broad church and much more open

:32:39.:32:42.

exchange and debate. I think that what is going on here in Momentum,

:32:43.:32:47.

though, is really about them trying to lean into a positive engagement

:32:48.:32:52.

with the Labour Party. One of the risks of what Jill Mountford and

:32:53.:32:55.

other people, the direction in which they were leading things, some

:32:56.:32:58.

people were warning - this is going to lead at some point to Momentum

:32:59.:33:02.

splitting off and becoming a separate party. Full engagement

:33:03.:33:06.

here, with the Labour Party, which I think at one level I have seen

:33:07.:33:09.

people on the right of the Labour Party welcoming. OK. Gaby, what do

:33:10.:33:15.

you make of it? It worries me slightly that the Labour Party has

:33:16.:33:20.

so little to say, that we are down to discussioning whether the You

:33:21.:33:26.

dayian people's, people's front of Judaea is in control of Momentum. It

:33:27.:33:31.

is an inward looking debate. I don't think people care. It is probably a

:33:32.:33:36.

good thing if they've kicked out the Trots, but it is a long way from

:33:37.:33:40.

many people who joined Momentum think it was. It was if you have

:33:41.:33:44.

never been interested in politics before, you can come into this big

:33:45.:33:49.

party and ended up about a low about logistics. Have you, Gabby's phrase,

:33:50.:33:56.

kicked out the Trots. I'm not in any desuggestion-making role in this

:33:57.:33:59.

movement. I wasn't asking you about the decision. I don't believe that

:34:00.:34:03.

anybody has been kicked out at this point in time. There is a rule that

:34:04.:34:08.

you won't be able to be a member, except under exceptingal

:34:09.:34:09.

circumstances, through appeal, if you have been expelled from the

:34:10.:34:12.

Labour Party and everybody is being encouraged to join the Labour Party

:34:13.:34:16.

but the other thing about Moment up, you have a broader supporter base of

:34:17.:34:19.

200,000 people. I think Gabby is right to say - you know, there are

:34:20.:34:25.

more important things going on in the xun trithan the internal

:34:26.:34:29.

constitutional arrangements of different political movements. --

:34:30.:34:36.

going on in the country. But I think what they have done is broadly

:34:37.:34:49.

constructive and opened up the possibility for it to live up to the

:34:50.:34:52.

promise it articulated on in the beginning. Well, moderate Labour MPs

:34:53.:34:54.

would say thil straits with the hard left, put five of them in a room and

:34:55.:34:59.

you get at least six rows. A bit like Ukip? Well, very like Ukip, I'm

:35:00.:35:02.

sure would them you would get ten rows with six in the room. I think

:35:03.:35:05.

Gabby is right - there is an interesting question about that this

:35:06.:35:07.

says to the young, enthusiastic people who signed up to Momentum and

:35:08.:35:10.

thought they were getting engaged in some exciting new form of politics

:35:11.:35:13.

and just find it is all consuming itself, the party is eating itself.

:35:14.:35:18.

This is the ultimate example. Look, Akehurst, if you have to be a member

:35:19.:35:25.

of the Labour Party, now to be a member of Momentum, shouldn't they

:35:26.:35:28.

be allowed to affiliate to the Labour Party? No affiliation isn't

:35:29.:35:33.

for faction s or groups of a particular viewpoint. It is for

:35:34.:35:38.

trade unions or for socialist societies I w like the Fabian

:35:39.:35:44.

Society think-thank that or Labour Students or Christian Socialists, it

:35:45.:35:47.

is for groups that are open to anyone, left or right of the party.

:35:48.:35:54.

It's completely inappropriate to have formal recognition in the

:35:55.:36:04.

structures for groups. It would open them up to reselection of MPs and

:36:05.:36:06.

give them delegates to local parties. The party here is

:36:07.:36:10.

institutionalisation of factionalism and of division, when actually the

:36:11.:36:16.

Labour Party needs to unite, and not have these divisions around what

:36:17.:36:21.

labels people attach to themselves. What is your reaction to Tristram

:36:22.:36:25.

Hunt's regular Is nation? -- resignation? Well he has decided to

:36:26.:36:30.

do other things, fair enough. I think toeps up an extraordinarily

:36:31.:36:35.

interesting by-election, a big challenge for Labour -- it opens up.

:36:36.:36:40.

A big challenge, given how that constituency in Stoke is and a

:36:41.:36:42.

challenge and an opportunity for Momentum and the Labour Party to see

:36:43.:36:46.

what it can do in a constituency like that. I don't think anyone

:36:47.:36:51.

would predict the outcome. And finally, Luke, your reaction to Mr

:36:52.:36:53.

Hunt's resignation? I'm disappointed. I think we need

:36:54.:36:59.

fighters rather than quitters. Both people who'll stay and fight to

:37:00.:37:04.

bring the Labour Party back to electability in a moderate

:37:05.:37:06.

standpoint and people who will fight against the Tories. He has made his

:37:07.:37:09.

choice but it is not one I'm very impressed by. We'll leave it there.

:37:10.:37:16.

I didn't get into John Landsman resigning as director of skament

:37:17.:37:21.

moiment scam campaign service, and being replaced by his ally,

:37:22.:37:27.

Christine Shawcroft who sits on the national committee I wouldn't go

:37:28.:37:31.

there. As the weekend approaches, I'm not. Thank you for joining us.

:37:32.:37:35.

At the start of the new year, how are the political parties faring?

:37:36.:37:38.

If you believe the opinion polls, the Conservatives have a commanding

:37:39.:37:40.

lead over Labour across the UK, and the SNP are maintaining

:37:41.:37:43.

But another measure of party support is actual votes in ballot boxes

:37:44.:37:52.

and every Thursday local council by-elections are held

:37:53.:37:54.

which can give an indication of the parties' fortunes.

:37:55.:37:58.

The last time we looked at what was happening in ward

:37:59.:38:02.

by-elections was back in October, so let's take a look

:38:03.:38:05.

Since the local elections in May last year, there have been 190 local

:38:06.:38:15.

council by-elections, held across England,

:38:16.:38:16.

In total, around 70 seats have changed hands.

:38:17.:38:20.

So how have the main parties been doing?

:38:21.:38:23.

Since October, the last time we looked at what was happening

:38:24.:38:25.

in ward by-elections, the Conservatives have lost another

:38:26.:38:31.

seat, making a net loss of 15 seats since May.

:38:32.:38:33.

And there's more bad news for Labour.

:38:34.:38:39.

They're down another 4 seats, and have lost 12 seats in total.

:38:40.:38:42.

Ukip have lost another councillor, and 3 seats in all.

:38:43.:38:45.

But with the Lib Dems it's a different story.

:38:46.:38:47.

Since October, they've increased their gains

:38:48.:38:52.

Elsewhere, the SNP have lost two seats and Plaid Cmyru

:38:53.:38:56.

And to discuss all that we're joined now by the academic Tony Travers

:38:57.:39:05.

from the Department of Government at the London School of Economics.

:39:06.:39:11.

First of all, tony, the principle - are local Government by-elections a

:39:12.:39:17.

guide to how the parties are fairing? They are not a bad guide.

:39:18.:39:22.

Like by-elections, you have to be a bit cautious with individual ones.

:39:23.:39:27.

But certainly if you look at the aggregated local election results,

:39:28.:39:30.

particularly on all-out days which we get in May each year and look at

:39:31.:39:36.

the way the parties perform in those and you adjust them to represent

:39:37.:39:39.

what local elections are taking place in a particular year, they

:39:40.:39:43.

give you a very clear sense of whether or not an opposition party

:39:44.:39:47.

is likely to win at the next general election. So they are, in many ways,

:39:48.:39:51.

a better guide now, in some ways, than opinion polls. Well, the be Lib

:39:52.:39:58.

Dems have gained 26 seats. Obviously following a period when they were

:39:59.:40:03.

pretty much wiped out in #35r789ly terms, not wiped out but decimated

:40:04.:40:07.

in parliamentary terms. -- in parliamentary terms. Does it amount

:40:08.:40:12.

to a fightback? It certainly is. You catalogue the significant shift to

:40:13.:40:19.

the Liberal Democrats in the local by-elections there is a pattern over

:40:20.:40:23.

time. Yesterday there were two more, one in Sunderland and one in Hemel

:40:24.:40:28.

Hempstead, where in both cases there were significant swings, in

:40:29.:40:32.

Sunderland... 42%. To the Lib Dems. Actually, Sunderland. So this tells

:40:33.:40:37.

us that there is something going on out there, I'm in the exactly sure

:40:38.:40:41.

what it is, but something is going on. Well, Sunderland is interesting,

:40:42.:40:44.

because Sunderland was one of the pivotal moments on the right of the

:40:45.:40:48.

referendum and we knew it was going to vote for Brexit but it voted by

:40:49.:40:54.

more than we thought and yet there is a 42% swing to the Lib Dems that

:40:55.:41:00.

want to undo Brexit. How does that happen? Well, it probably isn't all

:41:01.:41:04.

about Brexit, is it? A number of things are going on. A lot of

:41:05.:41:08.

Liberal Democrats will be recognised, as happened in the

:41:09.:41:12.

Richmond parliamentary by-election, as putting forward a pro-Remain or

:41:13.:41:18.

anti-Brexit view, but I think in other election, they have a lot of

:41:19.:41:22.

things going on here. The response to the Labour Party's internal

:41:23.:41:25.

troubles and at the same time, you know, remember the Conservatives

:41:26.:41:29.

have now, one way or another been in power for seven years and a sort of

:41:30.:41:33.

mid--term anti-Government view probably tangled up in this as well.

:41:34.:41:38.

People are not going to Ukip it would appear in places like

:41:39.:41:41.

Sunderland, they are actually going to the Liberal Democrats, it is an

:41:42.:41:46.

interesting phenomenon and it may have an effect on the by-elections.

:41:47.:41:52.

I don't know if that will happen in Copeland or Stoke on Trent but it

:41:53.:41:56.

could affect the result. Well, the Liberal Democrats took control of

:41:57.:42:00.

the Three Rivers District Council by winning a seat from the

:42:01.:42:03.

Conservatives last night as well. And yet when we look at the two

:42:04.:42:07.

by-elections coming up for Westminster, cleaned in the

:42:08.:42:10.

north-west and Stoke-on-Trent, central in the Midlands, Labour

:42:11.:42:13.

seems to be on the back foot there. You would expect a Government to

:42:14.:42:18.

lose by-elections midterm, you know this is what happens and Labour,

:42:19.:42:22.

obviously is in a mess nationally, so that's not - but what is

:42:23.:42:25.

interesting, the Liberal Democrats seem to be picking up all over the

:42:26.:42:29.

place, they are picking up Labour voters who can't vote for Corbyn,

:42:30.:42:33.

obvious, they are picking up Tory voters who were Remainers or

:42:34.:42:40.

dismayed by Theresa Mays inner who ways and less, the usual coalition

:42:41.:42:43.

of Liberal Democrats, because they can't figure out where else to put

:42:44.:42:47.

their vote. They become a grab bag for all sorts of things. That will

:42:48.:42:51.

not work in Copeland which will be much more of a conventional fight

:42:52.:42:55.

and it'll not work in Stoke where it will be Labour verses Ukip but from

:42:56.:42:58.

talking to people t seems people are more confident about holding Stoke

:42:59.:43:01.

than they are about holding Copeland. The majority is bigger.

:43:02.:43:08.

But Stoke is a very Brexity place. And Ukip was a strong second. They

:43:09.:43:12.

were nip and tuck with the Conservatives for second place. But

:43:13.:43:17.

you would normally expect in a seat like Copeland, held by Labour, and

:43:18.:43:23.

at times the as Tony says, the governing party has been in power

:43:24.:43:27.

for seven years but opposition parties hold on to their seats so

:43:28.:43:30.

the loss of Copeland would be huge if it happened. It certainly would

:43:31.:43:34.

be, it is difficult to read much into the statistics we looked at at

:43:35.:43:38.

the beginning of this section on who has gained what so far, because if

:43:39.:43:42.

you are look agent those as a guide as to what might happen in 2020, it

:43:43.:43:46.

is reunreliable. At the moment we are in this incredibly unusual

:43:47.:43:50.

interim period before we presumably leave the EU, so people feel as they

:43:51.:43:55.

perhaps did in Richmond, that voting for the Lib Dems might influence in

:43:56.:43:59.

some way the ways we come out. By the time we get to 2020, we will be

:44:00.:44:03.

in entirely different territory. I'm not sure any of these cases really

:44:04.:44:07.

are much of a good guide. The Labour Party would be thrown into crisis if

:44:08.:44:11.

the Conservatives were to win Copeland. And Ukip -- this is a

:44:12.:44:17.

bigger stretch, both are a bit of a stretch but this is a bigger one -

:44:18.:44:23.

if Ukip was to win Stoke? I think that's right. It is very difficult

:44:24.:44:29.

for the Labour Party if they start losing by-elections in the midterm

:44:30.:44:35.

of a Conservative Government. With crisis in the NHS and... All those

:44:36.:44:43.

things playing. We are running up to a full sweep at local elections.

:44:44.:44:48.

Councils in England and Wales holding local elections in May. That

:44:49.:44:51.

will give us a national sense of how well the Liberal Democrats are

:44:52.:44:55.

doing. I do think that - and I take the point we are a long way away

:44:56.:45:01.

from a general election, but truth is unless an opposition party is

:45:02.:45:04.

doing really in local elections through the period of a Parliament,

:45:05.:45:06.

it is very, very unlikely they are going to win the next general

:45:07.:45:10.

election. That's what the locals do tell us, they sell us more about the

:45:11.:45:13.

opposition than the Government in some ways. We'll keep an eye on them

:45:14.:45:16.

and monitor the results. Thank you for your help in this regard.

:45:17.:45:20.

You'll have heard the terms 'hard brexit' and 'soft brexit'.

:45:21.:45:23.

But what about 'grey brexit', and 'clean brexit'?

:45:24.:45:26.

If the terminology used in the brexit debate has been

:45:27.:45:28.

giving you a headache, we've got just the thing

:45:29.:45:30.

Here's Adam Fleming's guide to the language of Brexit.

:45:31.:45:37.

The language of Brexit can be baffling and some words

:45:38.:45:39.

Let's try and shed some light anyway.

:45:40.:45:44.

Proponents of leaving feel this is used in a pejorative way

:45:45.:45:51.

by former Remain campaigners to describe the worst possible

:45:52.:45:57.

outcome of the Brexit negotiations, ie, where trade and travel

:45:58.:45:59.

are difficult and there's little or no co-operation on justice,

:46:00.:46:02.

Leavers much prefer the phrase clean Brexit.

:46:03.:46:11.

Clean Brexit is defined by the campaign group Change Britain

:46:12.:46:13.

as removing the UK from all parts of the EU that prevent us

:46:14.:46:16.

signing our own global trade deals and writing our own regulations

:46:17.:46:22.

and with everyone knowing what's going to happen when.

:46:23.:46:25.

It's the opposite of dirty Brexit which presumably means no one

:46:26.:46:28.

knowing exactly what's going to happen when.

:46:29.:46:30.

The clearest version of this is the UK staying

:46:31.:46:39.

in the single market, designed to allow goods and services

:46:40.:46:43.

to travel around the EU with as few barriers as possible,

:46:44.:46:46.

although you have to stick to the rules of the single market,

:46:47.:46:49.

possibly including the free movement of people.

:46:50.:46:52.

In fact, Michael Gove has christened it fake Brexit.

:46:53.:46:56.

It actually stands for pay as you go Brexit, the idea that we take

:46:57.:47:08.

programmes and elements of the EU we still quite like and pay

:47:09.:47:11.

For example, the Brexit Secretary, David Davis, hasn't ruled out

:47:12.:47:16.

the idea of paying money for access to the single market.

:47:17.:47:19.

This is a scenario designed to bridge between two extremes.

:47:20.:47:30.

They are, black or disorderly Brexit, which is is us leaving

:47:31.:47:33.

without any kind of exit deal in a fairly chaotic fashion,

:47:34.:47:37.

and white Brexit, which I think means leaving but inheriting

:47:38.:47:40.

Grey Brexit is a sort of Goldilocks mixture of the two.

:47:41.:47:45.

What do you think about that, Prime Minister?

:47:46.:47:47.

Actually, we want a red, white and blue Brexit,

:47:48.:47:50.

that is the right Brexit for the United Kingdom.

:47:51.:47:52.

Coined on a battleship in the Gulf, red, white and blue Brexit

:47:53.:47:56.

was Theresa May's attempt to paint the process in her own terms,

:47:57.:48:00.

patriotic, optimistic, uniquely British.

:48:01.:48:03.

Now obviously the BBC doesn't have a view

:48:04.:48:06.

about which phrase is the right one because they're all judgments.

:48:07.:48:09.

But hopefully you feel a bit more switched on about what people

:48:10.:48:12.

And we've prepared a cut-out-and-keep guide

:48:13.:48:21.

If you'd like to get your hands on it, check out our Facebook page

:48:22.:48:34.

A viewer pointed out we coined a new phrase this morning, Brexitee.

:48:35.:48:48.

During the campaign itself I don't remember anybody talking about hard

:48:49.:48:53.

Brexit or soft Brexit, it was Brexit or not Brexit. Brexit in terms of a

:48:54.:49:03.

hard Brexit, though, was coined by the Remainers who had lost after

:49:04.:49:06.

June and it's been a very clever phrase for them. I agree with that,

:49:07.:49:11.

I think it was a hostile rebranding exercise. It was an attempt to use

:49:12.:49:17.

the language of Brexit to try to clutch victory from the jaws of

:49:18.:49:23.

defeat, to try to frighten people into thinking that hard Brexit was

:49:24.:49:27.

something they hadn't voted for. In fact, soft Brexit I think for most

:49:28.:49:31.

people that backed Brexit is a kind of synthetic Brexit, it's not a real

:49:32.:49:36.

Brexit. For me all this terminology, but particularly the two simple

:49:37.:49:40.

phrases we started out with, hard Brexit and soft Brexit, is a

:49:41.:49:44.

nonsense. Brexit is Brexit, as Theresa May has said, it means

:49:45.:49:47.

Brexit. . I think her red, white and blue thing, although it got a laugh

:49:48.:49:51.

from the particular way we presented it there, is a Goodway of putting

:49:52.:49:56.

it. What she means is the Brexit that people voted for, one that's in

:49:57.:50:00.

the best interests of Britain. Most of the people who ran the vote Leave

:50:01.:50:06.

campaign, as Adam said, they seemed to think that what is called a soft

:50:07.:50:10.

Brexit is really not a Brexit at all. The trouble with this whole

:50:11.:50:17.

debate is when Brexit means Brexit, everyone knows what they means, they

:50:18.:50:22.

don't. There is about 14 different ways you compute it. For the

:50:23.:50:26.

campaign it was imperative not to talk about that, because you can get

:50:27.:50:30.

a majority for just Leave. The minute you start breaking it down

:50:31.:50:33.

into what that means because everyone has different ideas about

:50:34.:50:38.

what they meant by Leave, some immigration is important, trade has

:50:39.:50:41.

different meaning for different people, it's better to forget about

:50:42.:50:45.

that and get the maximum number of people under the Leave umbrella.

:50:46.:50:48.

Once it's happening you have to be specific about what kind of Brexit

:50:49.:50:51.

and that's the reason Theresa May takes refuge in let's have a red,

:50:52.:50:55.

white and blue Brexit which means kind of nothing, because the minute

:50:56.:50:59.

she is specific someone will be unhappy, half the Tory Party will be

:51:00.:51:03.

furious because it's not their version. Half who voted Leave will

:51:04.:51:07.

say that's not what I meant. It's to keep it kind of vague for as long as

:51:08.:51:11.

possible while sounding like you are saying something. The Leave side

:51:12.:51:15.

didn't like the invention of hard Brexit but they then hit back

:51:16.:51:26.

because we have now had words like Remoaner. In the first few weeks

:51:27.:51:33.

after Brexit and probably the few months after the referendum result

:51:34.:51:37.

Brexiteers and supporting MPs were very nervous about this kind of

:51:38.:51:41.

language. I sense that people are more relaxed about that now. Leave

:51:42.:51:45.

supporters now feel they're a little bit less anxious about this

:51:46.:51:49.

terminology and where it way lead us because there is more confidence

:51:50.:51:54.

that Theresa May, who was a Remainer, will actually deliver the

:51:55.:51:57.

kind of Brexit, vague as it may be, that most people who voted for Leave

:51:58.:52:04.

had in mind. You mentioned that Theresa May has kept it vague, Gaby,

:52:05.:52:10.

because the moment she stops doing that someone will be upset. This

:52:11.:52:15.

speech is now on Tuesday. There surely has to be some substance in

:52:16.:52:19.

this speech now? From what we understand she's going to be clear

:52:20.:52:23.

about things we sort of knew, which is her priorities are reduce

:52:24.:52:26.

immigration, get out of the European Court of justice, but do that in a

:52:27.:52:30.

way that preserves as good trade relations as possible. But it's less

:52:31.:52:34.

now about what her negotiating objectives are, what you want to

:52:35.:52:37.

know is how is she going to get there? We understand she wants the

:52:38.:52:44.

least damaging deal, fine, who doesn't? How do you think you are

:52:45.:52:46.

going to get that exactly? I don't think we will hear a great deal

:52:47.:52:50.

about that on Tuesday. She's been specific at some points, weirdly

:52:51.:52:53.

specific. She said at one point we will have the right to label our own

:52:54.:52:58.

food which tells you something very specific about what she wants. Then

:52:59.:53:02.

she backs away from it... What does label your own food mean? God knows!

:53:03.:53:09.

It implies for a start, that we are not going to be told to put on food

:53:10.:53:17.

labels by Brussels which implies outside the single market, probably

:53:18.:53:21.

outside the WTO rules. That's weirdly specific. Then there is a

:53:22.:53:25.

hurried retreat away from that. You thought you knew where you were, oh,

:53:26.:53:28.

hang on, you don't again. Because of the vacuum the Government's created

:53:29.:53:33.

as a tries to work out what Brexit actually means, she said Brexit

:53:34.:53:37.

means Brexit, but hadn't yet worked out what that means, others have

:53:38.:53:43.

filled the vacuum. If she does not do something to fill this vacuum in

:53:44.:53:48.

this speech next week there will be despair on both sides. The people

:53:49.:53:52.

who wanted to stay will despair but people who wanted to leave will

:53:53.:53:56.

despair, as well. She doesn't have to stumble on for that much longer

:53:57.:54:00.

before she triggers Article 50. So why bother with a speech at all?

:54:01.:54:05.

Well, she's doing the speech because she's under so much pressure from

:54:06.:54:10.

all sides and I think it will be a kind of bizarre exercise in

:54:11.:54:13.

stringing out for as long as possible saying as little as

:54:14.:54:16.

possible with possibly one top line to satisfy the broadcasters and the

:54:17.:54:21.

media. I have always thought that if you haven't really - if you bill a

:54:22.:54:24.

big speech, you better have something to say otherwise it's

:54:25.:54:27.

better not to give it. Other people will say the trouble is we are close

:54:28.:54:31.

enough now to the triggering of Article 50 negotiation, before long

:54:32.:54:34.

we will get stuff leaking out of 27 other member states capitals about

:54:35.:54:36.

what they think the British position is and their position would be in

:54:37.:54:39.

response. This is their last chance to sort of have control of the

:54:40.:54:42.

narrative a bit before it slips away. I agree, there is only so many

:54:43.:54:46.

speeches you can give where there is a big build-up and then it's like,

:54:47.:54:48.

is that it? Exactly. Time now for our high-speed round-up

:54:49.:54:51.

of the week in politics Theresa May launched her vision

:54:52.:54:54.

of what she calls the shared society promising extra money for local

:54:55.:55:03.

mental health services. For too long, mental illness has

:55:04.:55:08.

been something of a hidden Jeremy Corbyn attempted

:55:09.:55:11.

to reboot his leadership, announcing Labour were no longer

:55:12.:55:14.

wedded to freedom of movement, before flip-flopping and saying

:55:15.:55:17.

he could support free Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt

:55:18.:55:19.

came under pressure over He says the NHS is getting more cash

:55:20.:55:26.

than it asked for but the boss It would be stretching it to say

:55:27.:55:33.

that the NHS has got more Strikes disrupted travel around

:55:34.:55:37.

Britain with workers from London Underground,

:55:38.:55:43.

British Airways and And, outgoing US President Barack

:55:44.:55:45.

Obama delivered an emotional final speech in Chicago,

:55:46.:55:54.

while President-elect Trump held a conference attacking fake news

:55:55.:55:56.

and dirty dossiers. Someone added true Brexit and fake

:55:57.:56:20.

Brexit to the lexicon. Gaby, we have talked about Theresa May's brings

:56:21.:56:24.

problems and the need to, not give away her negotiating strategy, but

:56:25.:56:30.

to fill out her vision of a post-Brexit Britain. She has two

:56:31.:56:34.

immediate problems, though, the rash of strikes, particularly in London

:56:35.:56:36.

and the south-east, affecting transport at a time when the weather

:56:37.:56:43.

is miserable, and this simmering and probably growing crisis in the NHS.

:56:44.:56:48.

I would suggest that it's not clear on either front if MrsMay has a clue

:56:49.:56:53.

what to do. I think the tensions particularly on the NHS, which is

:56:54.:56:57.

moving from simmering to boiling point now, the tensions between

:56:58.:57:00.

Number 10 and Simon Stevens, head of NHS England, are very clear now.

:57:01.:57:04.

Simon Stevens is not someone I would go to war with unless I knew what I

:57:05.:57:08.

was doing. The idea that you are fighting with your most important

:57:09.:57:11.

senior civil servant in terms of delivering at the same time as the

:57:12.:57:14.

papers are full of awful stories about people dying on trolleys in

:57:15.:57:19.

corridors and Little Children spending hours in A waiting to be

:57:20.:57:24.

seen, I think there needs to be a sense of something from the

:57:25.:57:26.

Government other than just insisting the NHS has money and it's going to

:57:27.:57:30.

be fine, because it's Patently not fine. Strikes causing disruption and

:57:31.:57:35.

we don't really know what the Government's response or attitude or

:57:36.:57:39.

- we know the attitude, not the response. A growing crisis in the

:57:40.:57:45.

NHS. Yet, MrsMay's 14 points ahead in the polls. If there was a real

:57:46.:57:50.

opposition in this country she would not be 14 points ahead at all.

:57:51.:57:53.

Indeed I would suggest she would be behind now. Absolutely. It tells you

:57:54.:57:57.

everything you need to know about the state of the Labour Party and

:57:58.:58:01.

whether they are capable of being an effective opposition at the moment.

:58:02.:58:05.

I think Gaby is right on the NHS, it's not a problem that's going to

:58:06.:58:09.

go away but the problems are so fundamental they're not something

:58:10.:58:12.

that she can correct at the same time as tackling getting Britain out

:58:13.:58:18.

of the EU. Let's come to the quiz. I think our guests will struggle on

:58:19.:58:19.

this! The question was which party leader

:58:20.:58:22.

is planning to address his b) French Presidential

:58:23.:58:25.

candidate Jean-Luc Melenchon. Or d) outgoing European Parliament

:58:26.:58:29.

President Martin Schulz. You don't know, do you? I am saying

:58:30.:58:42.

it's a trick question and Tim Farron is a hologram. The Jean-Luc

:58:43.:58:46.

Melenchon. Thanks to Gaby, Isabel

:58:47.:58:50.

and all my guests. I'll be back on Sunday

:58:51.:58:53.

with the Sunday Politics when I'll be talking to Lib Dem leader

:58:54.:58:56.

Tim Farron and press regulation

:58:57.:58:59.

Andrew is joined by Isabel Oakeshott from the Times and Gaby Hinsliff from the Guardian. They get the thoughts of former US ambassador Christopher Meyer on the forthcoming Trump presidency and look at the changes to the Labour pressure group Momentum with activist Paul Hilder and Luke Akehurst from Labour First.


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