16/01/2017 Daily Politics


16/01/2017

Labour's Mary Creagh and the Conservatives' Dominic Raab join Jo Coburn, looking ahead to Theresa May's speech outlining her strategy for Brexit.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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It will be "a great thing", and Britain is "smart to get out".

:00:41.:00:43.

How quickly could a trade deal be done with the

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The Northern Ireland Government is on the verge of collapse

:00:47.:00:51.

as the deadline approaches for the appointment

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of a new Deputy First Minister, after the resignation of Martin

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Should MPs and peers stay put during the proposed ?3.5 billion

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Or could brushing shoulders with the builders end up costing

:01:03.:01:05.

While Brexit Nativity does have an undeniable ring to it...

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And how the marketing men and women are muscling

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of the programme today are two of British politics'

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campaigner Dominic Raab who now sits of the Brexit Select Committee.

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And former Shadow Cabinet Minister Mary Creagh.

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So, the man who will be US President by the end of the week has

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love-bombed Britain, confirming what a big fan

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Donald Trump's intervention comes as more details emerge of the stance

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the UK will adopt in negotiations with the EU.

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Tomorrow, Theresa May makes her big speech on leaving the EU,

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where she is expected to push for a so-called "hard Brexit",

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prioritising immigration controls and take us out of the customs union

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Meanwhile, Chancellor Phillip Hammond, in an interview with German

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newspaper Welt am Sonntag, warned that if the EU limits UK

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market access after Brexit, Britain could look at an alternative

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economic model, seen as a warning to the EU that UK could further

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In an interview in the Times with former Conservative Cabinet

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Minister Michael Gove, Donald Trump, who will become

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President on Friday, said that a trade deal with the UK

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would come "very quickly" and be done "properly".

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He said it would be "good for both sides".

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Mr Trump said he would be meeting Theresa May "right after I get

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The President-elect said he had "great respect" for Angela Merkel,

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but said that she made "one very catastrophic mistake" by opening

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Germany's doors to what he called "all of these illegals from wherever

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The European Union, Mr Trump said, is "a vehicle for Germany"

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which is why Britain was right to get out.

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He predicted other countries would soon follow Britain's lead.

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I thought the UK was so smart in getting out.

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And you were there, and you guys wrote it and put

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Trump said that Brexit is going to happen.

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Obama said they'd go to the back of the line,

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meaning, if it does happen, and then he had to retract.

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Are his comments on getting a quick deal a vindication of the Brexit

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referendum? I think they are one instruction of

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where the EU tried and failed to get a free trade deal, there are others

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from Latin America to China and India, and shows Britain outside the

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EU is well-placed to do those deals. Huge benefits for jobs, cutting

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prices in the country it confirms what is already written into the

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political and business markets, there are advantages and it is clear

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we will have those. Can you trust Donald Trump to

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deliver a trade deal? The truth is, as with all trade

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deals with the US, we have to go through Congress. We have a new

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president taking the opportunity of saying there is a win- win. His

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language was interesting. That must be better than under President

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Barack Obama who said we are at the back of the queue.

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The rhetoric is better. It is nonsense. Looking at that photo of

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Michael Gove, I was struck by the words, Lala land. No trade deal is

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seen as completely fair on both sides. It can only take place after

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2019 when we can leave the EU at earliest. Michael Gove says he wants

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agencies -- a transitional vote. Trump won the election saying he was

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against open trade, against the trade deal with the TE TEP. A

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protectionist president. The idea he will open up to our market, we Stade

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Toulousain our food standards and assurances.

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He has a track record of God had it in himself -- to our market, we will

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lose our food standards. But this cannot happen until we

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leave the EU so it cannot be that quick. The EU commission has

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reiterated that timetable, no free trade deal can be confirmed until

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the UK has left the EU. I can understand why those on the

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Remain side are disappointed. But it must be a good thing America with

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its massive market is saying, we are up for this.

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But not before 2019. We couldn't sign it before then. But

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people have been talking about 20 years to do this deal. But it is a

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priority for him. I am not sure why someone the other side feel so

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disappointed by something which must be good news for British firms, jobs

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and consumer prices. How can you be confident it will be

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good news? It may well be, and they will want to hear more about the

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deal. But, if you look at TTIP, which predates him, there was a lot

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of concern about opening up our health service. People believe there

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could have been public services opened up to the American privately

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owned company, could that happen with a trade deal?

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I think it is rather flawed. The way it was characterised was

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wrong. But what was particularly subject to criticism was the dispute

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settlement mechanism. The advantage of being outside the EU is we have

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our own dispute settlement division which would kill this scaremongering

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about the NHS. Looking at the UK economy, Mark

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Carney, who was sceptical about post-Brexit, has said the economy is

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growing faster than predicted. Now we have Donald Trump saying he can

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get a quick trade deal. Brexit does seem to be working at the moment.

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Brexit has not happened yet. The referendum, Mark Carney took very

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strong action in the weeks following the referendum in order to shore up

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the British economy. In the Autumn Statement from Philip Hammond, we

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saw a ?59 billion black hole. What economic evidence is there to

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say in the aftermath of the referendum the economy has tanked?

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The reduction in our tax intake is the evidence of the economy has not

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done as well. Downgrading the economy, the fact the pound is

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trading... Hang on.

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We are the fastest growing economy in the G7. In the aftermath of June,

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growth went up, not down. Mark Carney dudes some action for

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quantitive easing to stave off a shock to the UK economy -- Mark

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Carney took action. The action the bank of England governor took has

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postponed that shock. You are still expecting there to be

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a shock? And the pound is now trading down.

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The markets have reacted to some extent to what Theresa May is going

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to say and Philip Hammond did say about taking action if you can't get

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the deal you want with the EU. Are you worried? People might have said

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the pound was overvalued, if it continues to slide and stayed at a

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low level for a sustained period, that will hurt people.

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15% devotion is pretty healthy. Mervyn King said the economy is

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better placed to shift from a consumer spending model... You

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haven't heard... He said better placed

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post-referendum to move to a manufacturing and exporting model.

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Actually, devaluation within certain parameters is a good thing.

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For exports, it is better. No, our exports are made using

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dollar traded, euro traded imports. Most things made in this country are

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from components from outside the country.

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Manufactures in Wakefield are concerned their prices are going up

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and they cannot put their export prices up as much.

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The construction industry is entering recession.

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But it is going up, inflation. The global talent competitive

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rankings have written post-Brexit moving up from seventh to third. We

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need to be a competitive country driving growth, looking out to the

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world. The EU is important but the point about Brexit, is actually that

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the real opportunities for the future for businesses and consumers

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as will be the growth markets. We export more to parts of Europe

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and the idea we will leave this market, we are leaving it.

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These are two different things. We are almost certainly going to leave

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being a formal member of the customs union. But the opportunities...

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To retain strong trade is acknowledged on the European side.

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But not by those who are disappointed those outcomes had not

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come to fruition. We'll get merry back on to

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scrutinise this. Do you agree more countries will

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leave the EU? I hope not. I don't think they will

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because there is a mood... I was in Brussels in November, and there is a

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determination from European leaders the EU will not fall apart as a

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result of our vote. Some of the other statements less scrutinised by

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Trump, dropping sanctions on Russia, and talking about native being

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obsolete, these are things which will affect our security in the

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months to come. What will Theresa May tomorrow say?

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What would you like to hear about our negotiating position?

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She has been clear since October the things we are not going to do, being

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faithful to the referendum verdict, not subject to the free movement.

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Get control over immigration, not subject to ECJ jurisdiction.

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What we now need to do is turn the page and start talking with

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confidence, the economy has proved resilient, and with a general state

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of spirit, looking for the win- win. The EU is a flawed political club.

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We still want strong trade, security cooperation. We are going into that

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and Theresa May will spelt this out, the positive case for our

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post-Brexit relationship with Europe.

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And the unity between both sides? I don't agree with Donald Trump on

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Russia but that is an illustration where the EU is irrelevant and

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outside the EU we can demonstrate we can be a strong ally to our native

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friends. The Chancellor implied if he

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couldn't get a trade deal, Britain would take other action. -- Can be a

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strong ally with our Nato friends. I do not want to see us moving to a

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low welfare, no regulation type of offshoot of the US. That is a wrong

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feature and not what people voted for in the referendum.

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Theresa May is used to appearing in the newspapers.

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But we learnt over the weekend that she's about to take a starring role

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So, our question for today is, which magazine

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At the end of the show, Dominic and Mary will give

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pubs he doesn't know. He might know which one it isn't, put it that way.

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Top gear. The Northern Ireland government

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is on the verge of collapse this afternoon which could force

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the Secretary of State, James Brokenshire,

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to call fresh elections. At the moment we can't go to

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Northern Ireland so we are going to talk about Parliament in terms of

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the restoration. MPs and peers are being asked

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to move out of the Houses of Parliament for five to eight

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years whilst a ?3.5 billion But now, up to 100 MPs

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of all parties are backing which allow them to remain

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in the Palace of Westminster The Conservative MP

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Shailesh Vara is one of them. This beautiful Gothic revival

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celebration of democracy, designed by Charles Barry,

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is almost 150 years old. And now it's due for

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another major repair job. A recent report by my fellow MPs

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and peers on the restoration and renewal of the Palace

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of Westminster has recommended that the Commons and peers together

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with all the other people who work on the site should leave the Palace

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whilst work is carried out. The argument is that this

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would be the cheaper option, rather than work being carried out

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whilst we stay on-site. If this proposal does go ahead then

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the Commons would move into the Department of Health along

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Whitehall just along there and the Lords would move

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into the QE2 Centre just The figures that are used

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in the report don't take account The loss of revenue

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at the QE2 Centre. Or the ?600 million that would be

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spent in patch-up work before In fact, the report itself says that

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significantly more work needs to be done before budgets can

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be properly costed. Hardly surprising therefore

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that the powerful and influential Treasury Select Committee

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is carrying out an investigation We are told that the work needs

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to be done urgently. So urgently that the full decant

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would take place in six years' time. Instead, I'm suggesting that work

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commences immediately Much of it in the basement

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where lights are needed So if the work is done

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round the clock in three shifts instead of one,

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then clearly the timeframe would be Following the referendum result,

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at a time when we need to make new friends abroad and secure

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favourable trade agreements, we should be making the most of this

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iconic building that is Parliament. At this crucial time,

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it is absurd that we should be seeking to sell UK PLC

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from a temporary building in the courtyard of

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the Department of Health. The notion that we should be leaving

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the Palace of Westminster for the convenience of the builders

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is simply wrong. The Palace comprises

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of some eight acres. There is plenty of room here for us

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to stay while the work And Shailesh Vara joins us now,

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as does the Labour MP, Chris Bryant, who sits of the Restoration

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and Renewal Joint Committee. Welcome to both of you. Why can't

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the restoration work be done around MPs while they remain in the Palace

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of Westminster? There is restoration work to another moment, the rooms

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are being done because there was a strange construction, one metre

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square cast-iron slab put in in the 19th century, and that work can go

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on now but what can't go on now is the major mechanical and electrical

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engineering business that needs to be tackled. You only showed a tiny

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proportion of that. It is the pipes. The building has 1.2 miles of

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corridor in the basement and that is now chock-a-block with cables,

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high-pressure steam central heating system next to electrical cables,

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you would never put them next to each other and asbestos. Why are you

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waiting to start the work if it's that urgent? Because we've got to do

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it properly, strip out the electrics in the whole building, there's only

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one drainage system and ends up just underneath the speakers Gardens and

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so you can't split the building up into bits. I understand lots of MPs

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would like to stay sitting in the chamber. That's what we did in the

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19th century which led to a dramatic increase in the cost, and meant it

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overran by 42 years. If that problem will have now. They have done the

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work on it. You have come to it later. They have been through

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endless research and quotes and budgets and surveys of the whole

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building. Surely they are best placed to know what will cost less

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and be the most efficient in terms of carrying out this work? I don't

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accept that because anyone who reads the report will see it abundantly

:20:37.:20:40.

clear they start off with the premise they want us out. Why would

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they want that? The report only quotes people who say we should

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leave. The fact is that the report makes a passing acknowledgement that

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they could work there. They could do 12 stages and I think it's important

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to remember 74% of the work is cables and pipes, much of it

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underground, so there's no reason why a lot of the work can't carry on

:21:08.:21:13.

underground. It only gives recognition to having one shift of

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work. I'm sorry, the facts are wrong. They are not wrong. You are

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just wrong about this. It's not all underground. There's only one

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electric system, there's only one central heating system,

:21:30.:21:35.

high-pressure steam system which is very unusual in the UK. You got to

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take it out in one go. You can do that over the summer holidays? No,

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it will take several years. There are 98 risers and at any moment if

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you had a fire like we had the other day, completely inaccessible to the

:21:52.:21:58.

fire patrols which go around 24 hours a day, because our building is

:21:59.:22:02.

exempt from the fire regulations in the rest of the country, it would

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spread throughout the building very rapidly. Our report only refers to

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people saying you have to move out, that's because we asked every expert

:22:15.:22:18.

could we stay in and they all said no, you've got to move out otherwise

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it will cost more. Experts are not popular necessary following the

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referendum but do you think it would be worth listening to them? No,...

:22:28.:22:37.

Well, that was fairly clear! Visit a number of experts have given them

:22:38.:22:39.

the answers they want. At the time the Brexit, we should make sure we

:22:40.:22:45.

make the most use of this iconic building, parliament. Imagine our

:22:46.:22:49.

opponents overseas, going out on our own, and saying, this is the new

:22:50.:22:54.

headquarters of the UK Parliament. What if it falls into disrepair? It

:22:55.:23:01.

won't. Why are they proposing six years? On one hand, they say there's

:23:02.:23:06.

going to be a catastrophe if we don't do the work urgently and then

:23:07.:23:10.

they want to do it in six years. In the meantime, they will spend ?100

:23:11.:23:16.

million every year on catch up work. Sorry, you've already done a film.

:23:17.:23:21.

The opening paragraph of the report says a significant amount of work

:23:22.:23:24.

needs to be done to ascertain the problem of budgets. Hang on, let

:23:25.:23:30.

Chris speak. It sounds to me like there's been work done, quite a few

:23:31.:23:34.

interviews on the in-depth research done into this issue. There may be a

:23:35.:23:41.

huge number of caveats but when you look at the project now and the cost

:23:42.:23:47.

element, ?3.5 billion, are you saying that the cost would double if

:23:48.:23:53.

you didn't move out and work around MPs and peers? That's the experience

:23:54.:23:56.

of the 19th century and I can't see why are we any different. Let Chris

:23:57.:24:05.

answer. The truth is, just one basic point, because there is one set of

:24:06.:24:08.

electrics and all the rest of it, if you want to stay in the building,

:24:09.:24:14.

and keep a bit of the building open during the work, you have got to put

:24:15.:24:19.

temporary electrics and all the rest in and that immediately adds an

:24:20.:24:22.

extra amount to the cost, added to which, as I understand it, his

:24:23.:24:27.

proposal is the Commons should sit in the House of Lords and the Lords

:24:28.:24:30.

should go in the gallery like happened in the Second World War but

:24:31.:24:33.

the problem is, the Second World War, there were no divisions and

:24:34.:24:38.

about 30 people turned up everyday. You are suggesting we would move

:24:39.:24:44.

every day when there is a vote, 650 MPs going from portcullis house to

:24:45.:24:51.

the House of Lords, walking along a public payment, the biggest security

:24:52.:24:56.

risk you can imagine. Cut this objection actually delay the sale

:24:57.:25:00.

process? That's my biggest anxiety. The government needs to allow the

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House of Commons and the House of Lords, two different bodies, to make

:25:05.:25:08.

their own decision about what had happened and the first thing is, we

:25:09.:25:12.

shouldn't be saying let's do this, done, we should say, let's set up a

:25:13.:25:17.

delivery authority like we did for the Olympics to make sure there's

:25:18.:25:20.

proper coherent body of people and they can put together the business

:25:21.:25:28.

plan. Six years to do that? The business plan will be ready in 18

:25:29.:25:31.

months' time. We looked at this for one year. Are you prepared to move

:25:32.:25:41.

out? First of all, I deferred to the infinitely superior knowledge of the

:25:42.:25:43.

House of Commons. Although they don't agree. I will make whatever

:25:44.:25:50.

solution works the best. I would like to say the least disruption for

:25:51.:25:54.

the lowest cost and those other two big entities. It's the classic

:25:55.:25:59.

construction dilemma, like working on the tube and railways forth the

:26:00.:26:04.

evidence is, if you work on a live system could cost you twice as much

:26:05.:26:07.

and take three times as long so my evidence from being Shadow Transport

:26:08.:26:12.

Secretary, it's always best to move out. It's an iconic building at

:26:13.:26:17.

every tourist in the world wants to have their photograph taken in front

:26:18.:26:20.

of which is why we have to protect it. Don't talk over each other. With

:26:21.:26:27.

the asbestos especially, the building could be closed down

:26:28.:26:30.

tomorrow in definitely. Before I let you go, do you want to be Speaker of

:26:31.:26:37.

the house? The Mail on Sunday rang me on Saturday, and I failed to

:26:38.:26:42.

predict anything last year in politics. I'm finding it difficult

:26:43.:26:44.

to predict anything this year. My ability to predict even my own

:26:45.:26:51.

future, let alone John Bercow's is not. You would like to? I can't

:26:52.:26:57.

predict anything. I'm not asking you to predict. I think that is yes.

:26:58.:27:01.

Anyway, thank both very much. The Northern Ireland government

:27:02.:27:04.

is on the verge of collapse this afternoon which could force

:27:05.:27:07.

the Secretary of State, James Brokenshire,

:27:08.:27:09.

to call fresh elections. The crisis has been prompted

:27:10.:27:10.

by the resignation last week of Deputy First Minister,

:27:11.:27:13.

Martin McGuiness, in protest at First Minister Arlene Foster's

:27:14.:27:15.

involvement in the renewable heat incentive scheme - the so called

:27:16.:27:17.

"cash for ash" scandal. Let's talk to our correspondent

:27:18.:27:20.

Stephen Walker who's at Stormont. Stephen, give us the timings of

:27:21.:27:31.

today. I understand 5pm is the deadline for Sinn Fein to find

:27:32.:27:36.

another Deputy First Minister? Actually, in the last 20 minutes,

:27:37.:27:39.

we've had political drama because the do you P have nominated Arlene

:27:40.:27:44.

Foster as First Minister, it was expected, and Sinn Fein refused

:27:45.:27:50.

declined to nominate Martin McGuinness and that was flagged up

:27:51.:27:53.

in advance. We knew that was going to happen so now we are moving

:27:54.:27:57.

towards this 5pm deadline when the Secretary of State has to call an

:27:58.:28:02.

election. Basically, you can't have a First Minister without a Deputy

:28:03.:28:07.

First Minister or vice versa pulled up they go together in this

:28:08.:28:12.

executive. We have a situation now where we have a First Minister and

:28:13.:28:15.

we don't have a Deputy First Minister, so there's got to be a

:28:16.:28:20.

call at 5pm and it's looking like a certainty we will have an election.

:28:21.:28:25.

What impact will that have on Brexit negotiations and Northern Ireland's

:28:26.:28:30.

role in that? The British government to some extent are playing that

:28:31.:28:34.

down. David broken Shire is saying just because we don't have a working

:28:35.:28:38.

executive, it doesn't mean the views of Northern Ireland would be taken

:28:39.:28:42.

on board. He said he is Northern Ireland Aqaba 's representative in

:28:43.:28:45.

the Cabinet and will put those views forward and still have discussions

:28:46.:28:49.

with committees and it will still take place in London. He says the

:28:50.:28:55.

views of people install Montt, and the views of people in Northern

:28:56.:28:58.

Ireland will be taken on board, so whilst they didn't want this to

:28:59.:29:04.

happen, and it's an enormous headache for Downing Street, James

:29:05.:29:06.

Brokenshire is saying the views of people in Northern Ireland, when it

:29:07.:29:10.

comes to Brexit, will still be taken on board. If fresh elections are

:29:11.:29:14.

called, it's likely we will have the do you P and Sinn Fein as the two

:29:15.:29:20.

players gain full stop well they have resolved their differences,

:29:21.:29:23.

because when I interviewed both sides, it went way beyond

:29:24.:29:28.

cash-for-ash. Not at the end of this election campaign. What you are

:29:29.:29:33.

looking at is a divisive campaign, the First Minister Arlene Foster is

:29:34.:29:36.

on record as saying it's going to be a brutal campaign, some people

:29:37.:29:40.

saying it's not an orange and green issue but the competence of people

:29:41.:29:43.

behind me. It's going to be a divisive campaign, all those issues,

:29:44.:29:50.

cash-for-ash, legacy, the past, the Irish language, are not going to be

:29:51.:29:53.

resolved during the campaign but what people are saying is when they

:29:54.:29:57.

come back after the campaign, they will have to do have negotiations

:29:58.:30:02.

and if they can't solve that through the negotiations, technically, there

:30:03.:30:06.

it will be another election and if that does not happen, then you would

:30:07.:30:11.

think about the British government having direct rule serve as a whole

:30:12.:30:13.

series of questions in this political crisis. Thank you very

:30:14.:30:20.

much. When you think back to previous Prime Minister's and their

:30:21.:30:24.

involvement in Northern Ireland and the peace process, bringing the two

:30:25.:30:29.

sides together, Tony Blair or John Major, do you think Theresa May has

:30:30.:30:31.

been present enough in this dispute? Not at all, the question for the

:30:32.:30:41.

British Government is whether Brexit taking up all the political and

:30:42.:30:48.

administrative bandwidth? The key thing is to protect that piece which

:30:49.:30:52.

was so hard on after so many decades of war, and provide political

:30:53.:30:55.

stability. Could she have done more to stop the

:30:56.:30:59.

collapse of this coalition? It is disappointing to see this

:31:00.:31:04.

political point scoring. We have no idea on the amount of

:31:05.:31:13.

ground work which has been done. Any Westminster -based position

:31:14.:31:17.

delving into Northern Ireland politics, that is precarious.

:31:18.:31:21.

It is keyed to make sure we have as much stability and make sure we have

:31:22.:31:27.

the mechanisms of dialogue to cover the well-known concerns over the

:31:28.:31:31.

Common travel area but the opportunities of Brexit for the

:31:32.:31:35.

whole country and different communities so they are fed through.

:31:36.:31:41.

It is clear that has happened. We need to see these elections through.

:31:42.:31:47.

And have some statesman is like behaviour on this side of the Irish

:31:48.:31:52.

Sea. So we can support the sides coming to an agreement.

:31:53.:31:58.

It is known when British prime ministers have got involved to try

:31:59.:32:01.

and be an honest broker, it has worked.

:32:02.:32:06.

You are talking about in relation to the conflict which was preceded by a

:32:07.:32:13.

huge amount beneath the surface. I am sure that is going on. I don't

:32:14.:32:17.

think anyone has been asleep at the wheel. There are clearly huge local

:32:18.:32:24.

tensions. On the heat incentive scheme, that

:32:25.:32:28.

was the trigger, but there are broader issues.

:32:29.:32:33.

There is an issue around the Prime Minister needing the votes of the

:32:34.:32:40.

Democratic Unionist Party, they have indicated they would support the

:32:41.:32:43.

Brexit plans. I don't think that gets in a way of

:32:44.:32:47.

what we all want to see in Westminster which is elections, the

:32:48.:32:51.

democratic process set up after the Good Friday agreement, to make sure

:32:52.:32:56.

Northern Irish politicians can resolve their problems locally as

:32:57.:33:00.

far as possible. We have two respect that. And tried

:33:01.:33:06.

to be a force for stability. Will it be difficult if the Supreme

:33:07.:33:10.

Court upholds the view of the High Court before it's about giving the

:33:11.:33:17.

devolved Assembly some say in Article 50 and triggering it, and

:33:18.:33:22.

there are elections going on, and it has collapsed. How would that work

:33:23.:33:28.

giving Northern Ireland invoice? The Supreme Court, we are expecting

:33:29.:33:32.

a judgment in ten days. I am not clear whether we will get a judgment

:33:33.:33:36.

on the constitutional issues in that at the same time.

:33:37.:33:43.

It is clear to me the issues of the border, the potential imposition of

:33:44.:33:48.

a hard border, are of great concern. The head of the Northern Ireland's

:33:49.:33:53.

Police Federation has warned any hard border would be a target for

:33:54.:34:00.

distance. We don't want to, there is a dilemma. If you keep borders open

:34:01.:34:05.

you create a back channel for people traffickers.

:34:06.:34:15.

That is not a domestic stability point on the radar.

:34:16.:34:20.

Will the people of Northern Ireland to be heard if there are elections?

:34:21.:34:24.

Nobody is speaking for them while Article 50 is ongoing.

:34:25.:34:30.

Now, standing in the drizzle outside Parliament are two of Westminster's

:34:31.:34:32.

But before we speak to them, let's have a look at the stories

:34:33.:34:36.

Tonight, Jeremy Corbyn will address Labour MPs

:34:37.:34:40.

Could there be some anxious faces as they try to work out who else

:34:41.:34:44.

might take Tristram Hunt's lead and leave Parliament?

:34:45.:34:46.

Tomorrow, Theresa May is making her first major speech

:34:47.:34:49.

detailing the Government's strategy for leaving the EU.

:34:50.:34:52.

We're being told she'll make the optimistic case for Brexit.

:34:53.:34:57.

Also tomorrow, anyone who's anyone will be

:34:58.:34:59.

gathering for the start of the World Economic

:35:00.:35:01.

And then on Wednesday, the Prime Minister and Jeremy Corbyn

:35:02.:35:04.

However, all this pales into insignificance because Friday

:35:05.:35:08.

Donald Trump will be sworn in as the 45th President

:35:09.:35:12.

We're joined now by the New Stateman's Anoosh Chakelian

:35:13.:35:17.

and James Lyons from the Sunday Times.

:35:18.:35:21.

Welcome. Anoosh, what do you expect to hear

:35:22.:35:29.

from Theresa May tomorrow? We are expecting her to say she is

:35:30.:35:33.

prepared to leave the single market, customs union, and take Britain out

:35:34.:35:39.

of the European Court of Justice. This isn't new, we have known

:35:40.:35:43.

Theresa May was going to put immigration ahead of the economy for

:35:44.:35:48.

Brexit but she has been under fire for not having a plan.

:35:49.:35:54.

At least we are hearing it now. And James? I expect to hear as

:35:55.:35:59.

little as possible she can get away with saying. She does not like to

:36:00.:36:04.

volunteer information willingly. She is being forced to deliver this

:36:05.:36:08.

speech because of the Supreme Court case bearing down on us.

:36:09.:36:14.

We are heading for what some might call a hard or clean Brexit.

:36:15.:36:19.

Was that underlined by Philip Hammond in his interview with the

:36:20.:36:22.

German paper at the weekend when he said he would take the required

:36:23.:36:25.

action if he could not get a deal with the EU?

:36:26.:36:30.

It was like he was issuing an ultimatum, saying, we could become

:36:31.:36:34.

this aggressive corporate tax haven or you could let us have access to

:36:35.:36:39.

the single market but us needing to keep free movement or any of the

:36:40.:36:43.

status quo. In terms of Theresa May saying she

:36:44.:36:47.

wasn't going to give a running commentary, the markets have

:36:48.:36:53.

reacted. One of my colleagues at the Sunday

:36:54.:36:58.

Times was told by people in Government last week they expected a

:36:59.:37:05.

market correction. We were joking about buying some euros over the

:37:06.:37:11.

weekend. There will be further market

:37:12.:37:14.

reaction tomorrow. Jeremy Corbyn said yesterday in his

:37:15.:37:18.

interview with Andrew Marr he said he thought Labour had had a good

:37:19.:37:22.

week. Their week was mixed. Jeremy Corbyn

:37:23.:37:27.

was prevaricating over immigration not saying whether he agreed Labour

:37:28.:37:32.

was in favour of free movement. It has been his relaunch as a

:37:33.:37:36.

populist leader. He keeps using language like, the system is raped,

:37:37.:37:40.

the elite are taking Britain for a ride.

:37:41.:37:45.

In a way that is working, his policy about wanting a wage cap on bosses

:37:46.:37:49.

who earn 20 times more than their employees was popular.

:37:50.:37:55.

You are looking quizzical, James? I don't think anyone could describe

:37:56.:38:00.

it as mixed for Labour, it was a catastrophe, the diabolical relaunch

:38:01.:38:05.

and the resignation of Tristram Hunt.

:38:06.:38:11.

The interesting polling over the weekend was the one that showed

:38:12.:38:15.

Theresa May has a 12 point lead on health. Traditionally the strongest

:38:16.:38:21.

subject for Labour. That was in the middle of an NHS crisis last week.

:38:22.:38:26.

Like you. No doubt you will be watching the inauguration.

:38:27.:38:32.

A diabolical relaunch last week? We had a series of U-turns within 24

:38:33.:38:40.

hours and what annoyed Labour MPs was after a reasonable performance

:38:41.:38:45.

at Prime Minister is question is, to have the Leader of the Opposition

:38:46.:38:48.

spokesperson briefing on Nato issues which were not raised, casting doubt

:38:49.:38:56.

on whether a future Labour Government would respond under an

:38:57.:39:01.

Article 5 provocation. That was appalling.

:39:02.:39:04.

That person needs to be reined in. Does Labour support nuclear power?

:39:05.:39:11.

We do, as part of an energy mix. We have dangerously low levels of

:39:12.:39:16.

capacity in the British system. Jeremy Corbyn has a principled view

:39:17.:39:21.

of being antinuclear but he says there should be a mix. Does he need

:39:22.:39:25.

to say more in terms of what he believes about nuclear power when it

:39:26.:39:30.

comes to the Copeland by-election? Workers want reassurance any Labour

:39:31.:39:36.

and would protect their jobs and pensions, something we have tried to

:39:37.:39:40.

do in opposition during the enterprise Bill. And before the

:39:41.:39:46.

by-election was announced, we sought to do that through the back door

:39:47.:39:49.

without Parliamentary scrutiny. Labour politicians have stood

:39:50.:39:54.

alongside the workers of Sellafield and we will continue to stand by

:39:55.:39:57.

them. You would like to hear Jeremy Corbyn

:39:58.:40:02.

Seymore. In unequivocal terms. How dangerous

:40:03.:40:07.

could Copeland be? Copeland and Stoke on Trent are

:40:08.:40:11.

Hartland Labour seats which we held in 2015, and election we lost badly.

:40:12.:40:18.

We have reasonable majorities and the Tories do not have much

:40:19.:40:23.

representation locally. These are seats we should hold onto

:40:24.:40:27.

particularly with the NHS in that area, the proposals to move the

:40:28.:40:32.

maternity unit from -- down the road to Carlisle.

:40:33.:40:38.

The poll says that Theresa May is more trusted over the NHS.

:40:39.:40:44.

We need to see action in the polls as well, see movement.

:40:45.:40:50.

The PLP meeting today, what will the atmosphere be like? Tristam Hunt,

:40:51.:40:56.

Jamie Reid, stepping down to take jobs outside of politics. Do you

:40:57.:41:01.

know any other politics -- Labour colleagues doing the same? Are you

:41:02.:41:08.

surprised by this? No, I don't. I know Joan -- I know

:41:09.:41:14.

Jamie had an eight hour journey to London with young children still at

:41:15.:41:21.

home. This job is a vocation as much as employment. If people have the

:41:22.:41:25.

opportunity to pursue a different location outside Parliament or feel

:41:26.:41:29.

this is no longer their vocation, people have the right to make the

:41:30.:41:32.

changes right for them and their families.

:41:33.:41:38.

We stand again in 2020? Yes. Whenever the next election comes.

:41:39.:41:45.

There has been criticism about Jeremy Corbyn by both those MPs

:41:46.:41:48.

leaving. Do you agree? Both of them have been

:41:49.:41:57.

critical. Last year, 122 MPs did a vote of no-confidence. That is not

:41:58.:42:01.

something that exceptional. I do think people are looking to

:42:02.:42:08.

their futures and working out what is best for them and their families.

:42:09.:42:13.

We are a party that wants people to have better lives and it is allowed

:42:14.:42:15.

for Labour MPs to have better lives. And back to that interview

:42:16.:42:24.

with Donald Trump. In a moment, I'll be talking

:42:25.:42:26.

to Michael Gove who conducted First, here's the President-elect

:42:27.:42:28.

on his mother and her The UK, my mother

:42:29.:42:32.

was very ceremonial. I think that's where I got this

:42:33.:42:34.

aspect, cos my father She loved the ceremony

:42:35.:42:37.

and the beauty, because nobody does And she had great

:42:38.:42:47.

respect for the Queen. It was fascinating interviewing him,

:42:48.:43:04.

he is a force of nature. You don't even need to ask a question. But it

:43:05.:43:11.

comes, commentary on everything from Nato to Twitter.

:43:12.:43:13.

Is he somebody ready to lead the free world?

:43:14.:43:20.

What do you make of him? President Trump will be different from the

:43:21.:43:28.

candidate. The candidate had a deliberate campaign style which was

:43:29.:43:34.

big, bombastic, brash. As president, of course he will still be the

:43:35.:43:37.

personality we know but he will look at things in a more businesslike

:43:38.:43:42.

way. There is a difference between the marketeer, and the deal-maker in

:43:43.:43:46.

office. We haven't seen evidence in change

:43:47.:43:51.

in style, he is still tweeting away, will he continue?

:43:52.:43:55.

He was clear he will continue to tweet, he regards that as a way of

:43:56.:44:01.

cutting through what he regards as media distortion.

:44:02.:44:03.

If you look at the people he has built around him in the Cabinet,

:44:04.:44:12.

James Matias, it would have been unlikely someone of his stature

:44:13.:44:19.

would have agreed to serve in Cabinet.

:44:20.:44:21.

The team he is assembling, some of the things he says in an interview,

:44:22.:44:26.

suggests he will govern not innate radically different way but in a

:44:27.:44:30.

different way to how he campaigned. Did you give him a proper grilling?

:44:31.:44:35.

We were there for one hour, we had the opportunity to ask questions on

:44:36.:44:40.

a range of issues. The critical thing is when you are talking to

:44:41.:44:46.

someone like Donald Trump, you can try to argue with him but he is like

:44:47.:44:51.

a river in spate, when you ask a question, the flow of language just

:44:52.:44:54.

comes at a torrent. Where were the difficult questions

:44:55.:45:06.

from you on his links to Vladimir Putin? We asked specifically whether

:45:07.:45:09.

or not he would stand by what he said Nato. He did shifters position.

:45:10.:45:16.

We ask them about everything from the wrong deal to whether or not he

:45:17.:45:20.

would stand down his campaign promise on Muslims, and he provided

:45:21.:45:25.

that. The critical thing I thought was it was important for me and my

:45:26.:45:32.

colleague from Germany to cover a wide range of topics and allow

:45:33.:45:39.

newspaper readers to form their own opinion. You didn't challenge him on

:45:40.:45:42.

his inconsistencies and there were many on very pressing issues. You

:45:43.:45:49.

say yourself you asked on a wide-ranging topic, but why didn't

:45:50.:45:51.

you challenge him before Christmas he said he wanted a nuclear arms

:45:52.:45:56.

race with Russia. Very provocative language. Now he says he wants to

:45:57.:46:05.

reduce it. Which is it? You can ask him when he appears on this

:46:06.:46:08.

programme. But you had him therefore one hour. We managed to generate

:46:09.:46:14.

from him compelling news on a variety of issues including a

:46:15.:46:17.

commitment to a rapid trade deal with Theresa May. Do you trust that,

:46:18.:46:24.

with his inconsistencies, like Syria, he was praised in Russia for

:46:25.:46:27.

getting involved in that because they were bashing Isis and now he

:46:28.:46:32.

says in your interview actually it has caused a humanitarian crisis in

:46:33.:46:36.

Syria. These are diametrically opposite views so when he says he

:46:37.:46:40.

wants a quick trade deal, do you trust him? I think he will be

:46:41.:46:48.

different from candidates from. I think that inconsistency is a

:46:49.:46:52.

different thing. A dangerous thing when it comes to foreign policy.

:46:53.:46:56.

Many things he said as a candidate are deeply worrying and I hope in

:46:57.:47:00.

the interests of the world he rolls back from some of them as President.

:47:01.:47:05.

I think what he said about Nato during the course of the campaign

:47:06.:47:10.

was dangerous and I think in the interview he suggests a more nuanced

:47:11.:47:13.

approach. I hope that will be the case. But my role in the interview

:47:14.:47:19.

was to make sure that he could speak for himself and people will form

:47:20.:47:24.

their own judgments. There are inconsistencies between what he said

:47:25.:47:27.

on the stump and what we may see in the White House. We can form a

:47:28.:47:32.

judgment like the American people, about whether or not they think he's

:47:33.:47:36.

doing a good job. The whole question of trust is ultimately one for the

:47:37.:47:39.

American people and for the world leaders who will engage with him. I

:47:40.:47:44.

was doing my job as a reporter to ensure he cover the waterfront and

:47:45.:47:49.

then each of us, as citizens, will form our judgment. I said during the

:47:50.:47:55.

campaign but I would have voted for Hillary Clinton and I've also said,

:47:56.:48:00.

some of the things he said are not acceptable but there's a difference.

:48:01.:48:06.

The BBC understands the reporter who allows a politician to speak for

:48:07.:48:10.

themselves, and an individual who can form a judgment about what they

:48:11.:48:15.

say. It's also about challenging, as a politician at the other end. If we

:48:16.:48:21.

look at the picture here of you with Donald Trump, is that a very

:48:22.:48:27.

professional, do you think? Thumbs up? Do you do that with all the

:48:28.:48:34.

politicians you do? Yes, if you want to have a selfie with me afterwards,

:48:35.:48:38.

you can. I've always never had the opportunity. Your German partner in

:48:39.:48:45.

this didn't stand with his thumbs up. People might just say that's a

:48:46.:48:48.

bit frivolous but you don't think so? I think the people should have

:48:49.:48:54.

their own views about that picture. I think I got a smile on my face and

:48:55.:49:03.

so has he. On that basis, you got there before Boris Johnson and

:49:04.:49:06.

Theresa May in terms of face time with Donald Trump. Euan Nigel

:49:07.:49:11.

Farage. Is not going to be Ambassador. Could you? I don't think

:49:12.:49:16.

diplomacy is my strong suit. Would you like to? No, I like being an MP

:49:17.:49:24.

and writing for the times. Why not a good ambassador? They require

:49:25.:49:29.

different skills but we got a very good primer list at the moment in

:49:30.:49:35.

Theresa May and a very good ambassador. How did the interview

:49:36.:49:44.

come about? We approach them and Donald Trump thought was a good idea

:49:45.:49:48.

to talk to Britain's best newspaper and the most successful newspaper.

:49:49.:49:54.

And they chose you to do the interview, none of the other

:49:55.:49:58.

political journalists? We made sure that we sent a professional team,

:49:59.:50:03.

the photographer did a brilliant job, and I hope Times readers will

:50:04.:50:09.

appreciate what we did but if people think it was shoddy journalism I can

:50:10.:50:13.

only apologise because I'm a valid serve newcomer to the trade and I'll

:50:14.:50:19.

do better with my next job. What is your job? You are elected by the

:50:20.:50:27.

people in Surrey but you talk about standing up to people... Nothing

:50:28.:50:33.

about comments on women. You are talking about a journalist as your

:50:34.:50:39.

colleague but it creates questions about the second job you have got. I

:50:40.:50:43.

think people will form their own judgment about the appropriateness

:50:44.:50:49.

about politicians writing. And thumbs up? Whether it's Boris

:50:50.:50:57.

Johnson or Tony Benn? Michael Foot would never have done that stand in

:50:58.:51:01.

a million years. We can't know but Michael Foot combined a very

:51:02.:51:05.

successful career as a local politician would also being a

:51:06.:51:09.

journalist and was editor of the Evening Standard and worked for Lord

:51:10.:51:12.

Beaverbrook. Before he was leader of the Labour Party. And I would never

:51:13.:51:16.

want to be the leader of the Labour Party. And on that stunning piece of

:51:17.:51:22.

news that are not going to be the Labour Party! We will stop this now.

:51:23.:51:26.

Thank you for coming in. Now, are we seeing

:51:27.:51:28.

the commercialisation of politics? By the end of the week,

:51:29.:51:33.

a marketing man will be in the White House and an increasing

:51:34.:51:37.

number of companies seem to have recognised the commercial

:51:38.:51:41.

opportunities presented by politics. President Obama loves music

:51:42.:51:42.

and has long been a fan So much so that he recently joked

:51:43.:51:50.

that he was hoping for a job with the company when he

:51:51.:51:56.

left the White House. And it seems Spotify's boss has just

:51:57.:52:03.

the vacancy for him. He tweeted Obama a spoof

:52:04.:52:06.

job description for So if you go for this job,

:52:07.:52:08.

you should have at least eight years' experience of running

:52:09.:52:13.

a highly regarded nation, a warm and friendly attitude

:52:14.:52:15.

and a Nobel Peace Prize. In contrast, President-elect Trump

:52:16.:52:21.

is used as the butt of a joke "Hurry, it won't last.

:52:22.:52:25.

It's limited, very limited." He'll be voting Leave

:52:26.:52:36.

on his next appraisal. The other big political campaign

:52:37.:52:43.

of 2016, the EU referendum, has been used by several companies

:52:44.:52:46.

in their marketing. The vote was often a hot topic

:52:47.:52:48.

in Britain's public houses and possibly even more so in those

:52:49.:52:51.

owned by Brexit-backer and pub He printed 200,000 beer mats

:52:52.:52:54.

promoting the Leave campaign. Meanwhile, Ryanair offered cut-price

:52:55.:53:02.

flights for people to fly And for those unhappy

:53:03.:53:04.

with the Leave result, the chance to see no Europe,

:53:05.:53:12.

hear no Europe and speak no Europe. Ryanair launched a sale with flights

:53:13.:53:16.

costing just ?10 for people wanting But please note, other music

:53:17.:53:20.

websites, food outlets, Here with us now to cast an expert

:53:21.:53:24.

eye over those adverts is Murray MacLennan,

:53:25.:53:38.

the worldwide CEO of the advertising Welcome to the Daily Politics. What

:53:39.:53:46.

do you make of these companies using politics in the advertising? There's

:53:47.:53:49.

nothing new in some respects because what we attempt to do is reflect

:53:50.:53:55.

society and understand the target audience and the last three years

:53:56.:53:59.

has seen unprecedented interest and emotion in politics, party politics,

:54:00.:54:04.

but issues, independence, Brexit, Donald Trump, and its arguments

:54:05.:54:10.

tween not just YouTube are people in the pub to advertisers and people

:54:11.:54:12.

down the football ground, so people are going to companies to but the

:54:13.:54:19.

minute advertising. We used to joke these things work not joked about

:54:20.:54:25.

down in the dog and duck but now they are. Do think it's an effective

:54:26.:54:29.

way of engaging consumers? It shows we are humorous. I think it would

:54:30.:54:33.

take a brave advertiser to take sides. Ryanair does but their

:54:34.:54:39.

history is about being opinionated and combative, so it's in their

:54:40.:54:44.

brand, but I don't think you will see Tesco, NatWest, taking sides

:54:45.:54:49.

shortly. They are very cautious, aren't they? It's not their job.

:54:50.:54:55.

Over the New Year, we saw Lego take a stand against the Daily Mail and

:54:56.:54:58.

not advertise whereas John Lewis said it's not our job to take sides.

:54:59.:55:02.

Our customers have different views and were not there to tell them

:55:03.:55:07.

that. Do you think those lines will be blurred in the future and it will

:55:08.:55:11.

become more difficult for them not to take sides, even if it actually

:55:12.:55:16.

is part of their moderate? They may choose to because what we are seeing

:55:17.:55:19.

more and more companies and brands having points of view. They are

:55:20.:55:24.

meant to fulfil something in society over and about making money for

:55:25.:55:28.

their shareholders and a social purpose if you like and can you have

:55:29.:55:34.

a social purpose without politics? Often but not always. I think with

:55:35.:55:37.

greater engagement on these emotional subjects, and that need

:55:38.:55:43.

for companies to have a point of view, you could do. Is it a growing

:55:44.:55:50.

trend or these exceptions? I think they are so deep-rooted and

:55:51.:55:54.

long-running, I think over the next two or three years we'll see more

:55:55.:55:58.

companies having views, using the engagement of people in the

:55:59.:56:04.

advertisements in these big issues, whether it is Brexit or trump. I

:56:05.:56:09.

think it could well be a trend, I'm afraid. Does it surprise you? Not

:56:10.:56:17.

really because it's been part of the political fabric for so long and I

:56:18.:56:20.

can see the pitfalls, businesses being perceived to back a side, or

:56:21.:56:26.

getting a challenge back themselves. I think for the politicians it's a

:56:27.:56:31.

good thing. When you think about Brexit, 72% turnout, far higher than

:56:32.:56:35.

people expected, and all forms of mediums, getting product placement,

:56:36.:56:42.

to reach parts and voters in a way traditional politics doesn't appeal,

:56:43.:56:45.

is a good thing. Would you advise any of your clients to piggyback big

:56:46.:56:51.

political events which have happened like the referendum and the trump

:56:52.:56:57.

inauguration? It depends on the brand and the company. It there is

:56:58.:57:01.

strong brand and has political roots, spotter five know their

:57:02.:57:06.

target audience. We have to know what their values are. If you are

:57:07.:57:10.

reflecting their values, they like to be challenged, then we would do,

:57:11.:57:17.

yes. What you think of this? I love the adverts. Britain is brilliant at

:57:18.:57:21.

advertisements, and our industry is precious globally, loved and

:57:22.:57:25.

revered, and our creativity and quirky character comes out in that

:57:26.:57:35.

and I watched La La Land at the weekend and I watched an advert for

:57:36.:57:40.

NatWest bank talking about climate change and I thought to myself,

:57:41.:57:45.

there you go, NatWest are part of a crisis which means people have never

:57:46.:57:48.

pay rise for eight years but now they are trying to do good. I'm glad

:57:49.:57:54.

you've made that clear on the programme. The other thing is, I

:57:55.:57:59.

think politics is more at the front now than it's ever been our public

:58:00.:58:03.

discourse so why wouldn't you talk about the things people are talking

:58:04.:58:09.

about? Just stay with us for the end of the programme.

:58:10.:58:10.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:58:11.:58:14.

The question was, which magazine will Theresa May be featuring in?

:58:15.:58:16.

Vogue. It could be top gear. You both got it right. I'm going to

:58:17.:58:39.

tread very carefully. Thanks very much to all of our guests today.

:58:40.:58:41.

The One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now.

:58:42.:58:44.

I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big

:58:45.:58:47.

Labour's Mary Creagh and the Conservatives' Dominic Raab keep Jo Coburn company throughout the programme. They look ahead to Theresa May's speech outlining her strategy for Brexit and speak to Conservative MP Shailesh Vara who is arguing that MPs and Lords should not move out when the Palace of Westminster is refurbished.

Anoosh Chakelian of the New Statesman and James Lyons of the Sunday Times look ahead to the events of the political week, and Jo discusses how some companies use politics to market their products with Moray MacLennan of M&C Saatchi.


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