Browse content similar to 06/02/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:37. | :00:38. | |
Pay upfront or you won't be treated - the NHS in England is told to get | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
But how much money will it raise for the hard-up health service? | :00:43. | :00:53. | |
Israel's Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, will meet | :00:54. | :00:54. | |
Theresa May for the first time since she became Prime Minister. | :00:55. | :01:01. | |
Shut the trip be about trade or tackling him on illegal settlements? | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
They were the cuckoos in Labour's nest during | :01:06. | :01:07. | |
the referendum campaign - but did Labour Leave overstep | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
the mark by making a donation to their political foes in Ukip? | :01:11. | :01:12. | |
And diplomacy is dead as politicians show us how to make enemies | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole | :01:16. | :01:24. | |
of the programme today, that rare breed - | :01:25. | :01:27. | |
And the Conservative MP, Remainer and star | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
The issue of patients from overseas using the NHS has been | :01:32. | :01:43. | |
in the headlines over the last couple of weeks, and now | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
the Government wants hospitals in England to get tough. | :01:47. | :01:48. | |
From April this year, foreign patients could be refused | :01:49. | :01:50. | |
non-emergency operations unless they pay up front. | :01:51. | :01:52. | |
At the moment patients who live outside the European Economic Area | :01:53. | :01:58. | |
are usually invoiced after the treatment takes place. | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
Patients from inside the EEA have their details forwarded | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
to the Department of Health so the costs can be recouped | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
The total cost of people who use the NHS but aren't UK residents | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
This can include holiday-makers who get injured or some who get sick | :02:14. | :02:25. | |
while temporarily employed in the UK. | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
Last year the NHS charged overseas patients ?289 million, | :02:30. | :02:31. | |
and Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt says he hopes to recoup up to half | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
a billion pounds a year by the middle of this parliament | :02:36. | :02:37. | |
Some, however, have argued the money is small beer when the whole NHS | :02:38. | :02:46. | |
budget in England last year was over ?116 billion. | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
What's more, the BMA has warned that the new scheme could lead | :02:51. | :02:53. | |
to "chaos and confusion", and argues that there is no detail | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
about how the upfront charging will be introduced. | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
Last week the BBC showed a documentary called Hospital | :03:03. | :03:04. | |
which highlighted the problem of charging for overseas visitors. | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
In this clip a hospital administrator, Terry, | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
has to invoice a Filipino patient who's had open heart surgery. | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
The bill runs into tens of thousands of pounds, | :03:17. | :03:18. | |
and he has to speak to the patient's sister about payment. | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
This is an invoice, OK, which, as you know, we have to present. | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
OK, now, clearly Sonia's been in ITU for a while now. | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
So I need to ask you, are you able to make | :03:33. | :03:40. | |
a small payment, a deposit, today, do you think? | :03:41. | :03:43. | |
At the moment, my son is unemployed as well. | :03:44. | :03:57. | |
I'm not going to pressure you for that. | :03:58. | :04:05. | |
What I will say is there will be further invoices. | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
You know, I think you need to look at the possibility of making a small | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
payment on a monthly basis, rather than paying the whole amount. | :04:15. | :04:17. | |
But this won't disrupt your sister's treatment, OK? | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
We're joined now by the doctor and broadcaster Dr Phil Hammond. | :04:24. | :04:36. | |
Welcome to the Daily Politics. It costs the NHS ?1.8 billion per year, | :04:37. | :04:43. | |
isn't it a good thing that Jeremy Hunt wants to get tough? Yes, but it | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
is interesting that the health tourism story is always wheeled out | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
when there are big stories in the media about the crisis in social | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
care, the long wait in hospital, people dying in corridors and on | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
waiting lists, let's throw this old chestnut! Yes, it is good to be good | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
money if you can do it safely and fairly. The problem is denying | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
routine care is it can turn up as an emergency situation. I have no issue | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
about it, if I go to France I have to pay by credit card and we keep | :05:15. | :05:16. | |
the money, but it is a tiny fraction of the NHS budget and a | :05:17. | :05:34. | |
smoke screen for bigger problems of funding in the NHS, so let's talk | :05:35. | :05:37. | |
about it but we have precious airtime to talk about the problems | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
in the NHS and we should talk about the lack of doctors, nurses, GPs, | :05:41. | :05:42. | |
rather than this issue. Isn't that the point, that it is small beer | :05:43. | :05:45. | |
compared to what the NHS needs? Call me old-fashioned but ?1.8 billion is | :05:46. | :05:47. | |
not old beer. I understand the point he's making but this isn't an old | :05:48. | :05:50. | |
chestnut that is wheeled out, it has been going on for about ten years. | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
Kate and I have both been involved on talents migration and one of the | :05:56. | :06:02. | |
issues we looked at is the question that keeps coming up here and the | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
large costs accumulating to the NHS. I agree in terms of the overall | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
spend it is not great but it is money that should be recouped and | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
there is a simple way of doing it, that people on visitors visas when | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
they come to the country should come with a health-insurance certificate. | :06:20. | :06:22. | |
You want them to prove that when they enter the country? I want them | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
to prove it when they enter the country. You are nodding agreement? | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
I think the public will see that this is about public and rights, | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
that people should have to pay, when other people in this country | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
contribute through their national insurance to the NHS, which needs | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
more money, and I understand what Doctor Hammond is saying, more money | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
is needed, there are real problems, but let's not throw this away | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
because there are big, important issues, let's get it sorted. I see | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
it all the time even at my own hospital. Let's talk about the | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
detail about how it would work, but, Nicholas Soames, did you take the | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
point made by Doctor Phil Hammond that it is a distraction from the | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
bigger issues both financially and in terms of scale that are at the | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
moment affecting the NHS? No, I don't think that is a sensible point | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
to make. The NHS struggles for Adam, there is never a moment it is not on | :07:20. | :07:27. | |
television because of the situation! This is an important point and | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
touches on a whole different area of issues, it is not a very complicated | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
matter, actually, and if you choose to make it so, hospitals are full of | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
administrators, if you choose to make it a reasonably simple process, | :07:41. | :07:47. | |
let it be known we will recoup the money. Is it complicated, Doctor | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
Hammond, or as simple as having the staff within hospitals to recoup the | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
money? We don't know, the point about the NHS is it should be based | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
on proper evidence, so you would do a trial, see if you can recoup the | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
money. The problem with political innovations is people come up with | :08:06. | :08:08. | |
things that the Cancer Drugs Fund and dementia screening that are not | :08:09. | :08:10. | |
based on evidence. If you want to see if it is safe and it | :08:11. | :08:28. | |
works, do a proper trial and evaluated, they have tried in one or | :08:29. | :08:30. | |
two hospitals but it needs to be rolled out carefully and evaluated | :08:31. | :08:33. | |
so I cannot give you that answer. I can tell you the growth in demand | :08:34. | :08:36. | |
for health and social care rises every year, there is a ?50 billion | :08:37. | :08:38. | |
black hole in health and social gaffe finances and if we don't | :08:39. | :08:41. | |
address that the NHS will collapse like a souffle and there will be | :08:42. | :08:43. | |
little point in discussing this tiny Boyd alongside the big issue. It | :08:44. | :08:45. | |
already happens in the maternity unit at Saint Thomas, everybody | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
coming to the maternity unit gives some identity of where they are | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
living. If they are within the EEE eight they would show their card... | :08:55. | :09:01. | |
Public should not think that anyone who comes to this country as a | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
tourist and has a terrible accident, that we would leave them lying on | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
the ground, this is not about emergency treatment. Should it be | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
about emergency treatment, as well? No, but the idea that someone that | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
comes as a tourist and does not take out insurance to cover the cost of | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
medical care where if I would have to do that if I went outside the | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
EEA... Doctor Hammond, you made the case of saying it is small beer | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
compared to the problems of social care funding in the NHS, but what | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
about English taxpayers, they may feel aggrieved that they are, to | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
some extent, funding the nonemergency care of people who live | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
outside the EU or European economic area, like the Filipino lady in the | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
film that we showed, and it is running into tens of thousands of | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
pounds? I absolutely take that point but the | :09:56. | :10:11. | |
other point is there are lots of people the NHS is therefore, like | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
people who are homeless who don't carry around two forms of ID and | :10:16. | :10:18. | |
there will be an issue if we deny care to people who don't have the | :10:19. | :10:20. | |
right identification because the NHS is therefore the people who need it | :10:21. | :10:23. | |
most. We have staggering levels of health inequality, poor people died | :10:24. | :10:25. | |
ten years earlier than rich people and have 20 years more of disease | :10:26. | :10:28. | |
living than rich people. The idea of denying treatment because we cannot | :10:29. | :10:30. | |
prove people are UK residents, there will be side effects, so let's do it | :10:31. | :10:33. | |
and piloted properly rather than using it as a smoke screen to cover | :10:34. | :10:36. | |
the other problems in the NHS. Do you recognise the problems you could | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
run into? It is imperative that we recover such money as we need to put | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
back in. But what about the bureaucratic problems are people who | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
are homeless... You have to find a way around it and hard cases make | :10:51. | :10:53. | |
bad law. I agree that we certainly should do a trial but we will find a | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
way to do it. But it is not true to say this is some recycled old | :10:59. | :11:00. | |
chestnut to draw attention from other things, it is an important | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
problem, people do mind about it and they need to be reassured. Kate, you | :11:06. | :11:17. | |
gave the example of a hospital in your area and their right examples | :11:18. | :11:19. | |
where there are people, like Terry in the film, officers there to | :11:20. | :11:22. | |
recoup the money no doubt within the EU and outside, but the whole | :11:23. | :11:24. | |
principle of the NHS is that it should be free at the point of use | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
so most hospitals will not be geared up for that because they will think | :11:29. | :11:30. | |
there are not that many people they have to deal with? There will be | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
hospitals where it does not happen very often and it will be easier for | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
them because they won't have to deal with hundreds and hundreds of | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
people. But up until about ten years ago this was really, really, and | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
suddenly at my hospital there were clearly people coming into Heathrow | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
and going straight to Saint Thomas' all guys, or the London hospitals, | :11:53. | :11:58. | |
and we have to accept that people are contributing, the NHS is | :11:59. | :12:01. | |
ultimately first and foremost for those contributing through national | :12:02. | :12:04. | |
insurance in this country and there is nothing wrong with that. The | :12:05. | :12:07. | |
average person watching this programme would think this is common | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
sense. Phil Hammond, if we take the example Kate Hoey has said, people | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
coming directly from the airport to the hospital, there is the example | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
of a woman patient from Nigeria who had quads on the NHS, she had tried | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
I think to have those quads in the US first of all but they didn't let | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
her in because she didn't have health insurance and couldn't prove | :12:32. | :12:34. | |
that she could pay for it. Was it right the NHS should pick up the | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
pieces? Know it is not necessarily write the NHS should and think | :12:40. | :12:42. | |
should be judged on individual cases, but my point is to have a | :12:43. | :12:55. | |
wider debate about the overall funding of health and social. I go | :12:56. | :12:57. | |
around the country and every audience says they would be prepared | :12:58. | :13:00. | |
to put more money into the NHS if it was guaranteed to be spent on | :13:01. | :13:03. | |
treatment is proven to work, not wasted on political reorganisation, | :13:04. | :13:05. | |
outsourcing, etc, so let's have this wider mature debate about how much | :13:06. | :13:07. | |
money we are putting in and what to spend it on, and this would be part | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
of that debate. We take up this time when there are other important... | :13:12. | :13:14. | |
You could arguably deal with this separately and also have a debate | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
about whether taxpayers are prepared to fund the NHS further in some way, | :13:20. | :13:26. | |
but why not deal with what seems a fairly open and shut case, certainly | :13:27. | :13:29. | |
to our deaths here and others, recoup the money then have the | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
broader debate as well? I agree, let's try a little and see if it is | :13:36. | :13:38. | |
feasible without being unfair and discriminating against homeless | :13:39. | :13:44. | |
people who cannot provide identification and does not take | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
people into becoming emergency care, let's have an evaluation. How easy | :13:50. | :13:52. | |
would it be to change the law, because you would have to change the | :13:53. | :13:55. | |
law for people to come into this country proving that they had the | :13:56. | :14:01. | |
means to pay for any health accidents that might befall them | :14:02. | :14:04. | |
when they are here, you would have to change legislation? If you want | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
to do something, you get on and do it, there will be a way to do it. I | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
am not disagreeing with Doctor Hammond about the overall context, | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
I'm really not, but this is important and it is absurd that 1.8 | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
billion is not seen as a lot of money. If it is so important, why | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
hasn't it happened? Innocence, it is an old chestnut because I have been | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
discussions about this over a period of at least ten years, so why not do | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
it? I think it has got better, the way hospitals now actually pursue | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
the money and also check with people, which did not happen ten | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
years ago... But you don't need insurance? No, and I think people | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
should have to do that when they show their passport, we don't want | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
to be like America but people are expected to show they have the | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
insurance when they go there. But it has not happened? It is inconsistent | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
and some hospitals do it seriously and get on with it, other hospitals | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
don't do it at all, and all it is about is returning consistency and | :15:07. | :15:09. | |
good order to the financial management of the NHS and I don't | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
disagree with what Doctor Hammond said about carrying that try | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
allowed. We need the debate, but let's get this sorted. Well, Doctor | :15:19. | :15:21. | |
Hammond, they agree with you! Thank you very much. | :15:22. | :15:24. | |
The question for today is, what is Marine Le Pen ditching? | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
At the end of the show Nicholas and Kate will give us | :15:29. | :15:41. | |
Now, in the past few minutes the Israeli Prime Minster has | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
arrived in Downing Street for his first meeting | :15:46. | :15:47. | |
with Theresa May since she became Prime Minister. | :15:48. | :15:49. | |
Number 10 has said that Mrs May wants to talk trade | :15:50. | :15:52. | |
with Benjamin Netanyahu, as Britain is Israel's second | :15:53. | :15:55. | |
biggest trading partner, but it's also reported | :15:56. | :15:58. | |
than she will restate the UK's opposition to settlement | :15:59. | :16:01. | |
building in the occupied Palestinian territories. | :16:02. | :16:03. | |
We're joined now by James Sorene of the pro-Israel think tank, Bicom. | :16:04. | :16:11. | |
Welcome to you. I'll come to you in just a moment. Nicholas, Katusha | :16:12. | :16:19. | |
Theresa May be with Mr Netanyahu over continued settlement building | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
in the West Bank? I think she should be firm. I don't think it's a | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
question being tough, I think she should firm and its breast the | :16:28. | :16:33. | |
long-held views of this government that settlement building is | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
extremely unhelpful and at the pace that is going on at the moment there | :16:39. | :16:41. | |
will be no way for a two state solution, which I think is key to | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
moving forward. So I think she should be firm, respectful. They are | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
allies and friends. But I think it's important that she will make that | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
point, and I know she will. How will that be received by Benjamin | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
Netanyahu, being told firmly if respectfully to stop building Jewish | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
settlements in occupied territories? I think there's an interesting | :17:04. | :17:06. | |
domestic political game that goes on in Israel where particularly people | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
are Netanyahu's right flank want to hear announcements about expanding | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
settlements. That's something Netanyahu does a lots. Just last | :17:17. | :17:19. | |
week he dismantled and a legal settlement on the West Bank. It was | :17:20. | :17:26. | |
clear that the pictures that would send out of them dismantling a | :17:27. | :17:29. | |
settlement would cause him domestic political damage. It's not | :17:30. | :17:32. | |
surprising that they have then announced very quickly the building | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
of new settlements. Settlements are very much Israel's problems. Israel | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
has shown in the past that it has made generous offers to the | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
Palestinians and it has said that it will dismantle many settlements in | :17:46. | :17:48. | |
the outer edges of the West Bank in any deal with the Palestinians. As | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
much as they might announce new building, they will have to | :17:53. | :17:55. | |
dismantle and evacuate if Palestinians ever do accept any of | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
the Israeli offers. Does it also point to the fact that actually | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
belief in a two state solution with a viable Palestinian state has | :18:05. | :18:06. | |
pretty well disappeared in Israeli circles? I think that has been going | :18:07. | :18:13. | |
on for a long time. The pro-peace wing, particularly in the Labour | :18:14. | :18:16. | |
Party in Israel, was destroyed not by settlements but by Hamas | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
terrorist attacks. It has undermined this idea that Israel gave up land, | :18:22. | :18:28. | |
it would get peace. That has been trajectory. Israel left Gaza in 2005 | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
and ever since then they've had Israel attacks into mainland Israel. | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
The Israeli domestic political arena, giving up land has led team | :18:37. | :18:45. | |
very, very difficult results. Kate ,, what leveraged as Mr Netanyahu | :18:46. | :18:52. | |
have? We are a friend of Israel, and they are an ally of hours. We have | :18:53. | :18:58. | |
the kind of way that Theresa May will deal with the Prime Minister, I | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
hope, will be to be very firm, as Nicholas has said. But also to make | :19:04. | :19:06. | |
it clear that we respect international law. Whether they like | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
it or not, the United Nations did pass that legal judgment, or legal | :19:11. | :19:16. | |
vote, just before Christmas on the illegal settlements. It's very | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
interesting, it's 100 years this year since the bill for declaration. | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
So we do have a special kind of involvement. It's never had any | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
impact. Settlements have continued to be built by successive Israeli | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
governments. The government of Israel is in breach of endless UN | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
resolutions, and we have put that to one side. Israel doesn't pay much | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
attention to anyone. Though what difference will it make? I think it | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
is important that we acknowledge the great injustice that has been done, | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
and it is important that the settlements do not go on being | :19:54. | :19:59. | |
built. When the gentleman said that Prime Minister Netanyahu dismantled | :20:00. | :20:02. | |
a tiny settlement, he then announced the building of another 2000 houses. | :20:03. | :20:10. | |
I think it is an important point for Netanyahu to acknowledge that there | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
are many people in many countries who feel very strongly that there | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
are great injustice is being done. James, the other thing is that the | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
steady growth of settlement has long been considered in violation of | :20:24. | :20:26. | |
international law. But is there a step change because even the | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
Americans, at the last UN vote, abstained. They have always voted | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
against any resolution that condemns Israeli settlement building. Is that | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
a step change that Benjamin Netanyahu is worried about? I think | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
that resolution that was intended as a rebuke to Israel to try and change | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
its policy. I think there is a debate that continues about whether | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
settlement of the obstacle or one obstacle. I think Prime Minister | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
Theresa May was very clear when she criticised John Kerry's speech. She | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
said she didn't think the place of settlement at the heart of the | :21:04. | :21:06. | |
conflict was constructive. Britain voted against as well. They did, but | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
John Kerry's speech was corrected and invent diplomacy has been going | :21:13. | :21:15. | |
in an interesting direction. They believe that direct talks are the | :21:16. | :21:22. | |
only way to resolve the conflict. Britain did not participate in the | :21:23. | :21:25. | |
Paris peace conference. And Boris Johnson pretty much blocked a | :21:26. | :21:31. | |
communique at the EU foreign affairs meeting. Is that because Nicholas | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
Soames, in the end, trade is going to be very important? Theresa May | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
won't risk anything that will imperil a free trade relationship. I | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
don't believe that Britain's relationship with Israel is going to | :21:47. | :21:49. | |
be impaled on the trade front by Brexit. I think it's very important | :21:50. | :21:56. | |
to make this point. People are obsessed about everything being | :21:57. | :21:59. | |
about trade. They will look at the Tron meeting, when they? This | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
country plays a big role in international affairs. -- they will | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
look at the Trump meeting. It's important that we deal with the | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
major issues. Between Britain and Israel, there is a major | :22:15. | :22:17. | |
disagreement over settlements. Do you agree with that on trade, Kate, | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
that this is as important or more important than a future free-trade | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
deal with Israel? I think trade is important. But there has been an | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
injustice to the Palestinians that has gone way down to the bottom of | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
the list of all the other injustices going on around the world. I really | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
do feel that we have to continue. And the more unity that we can have | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
across political parties on this in the United Kingdom, and the more | :22:45. | :22:50. | |
strength it gives to the United Kingdom -- gives to the Prime | :22:51. | :22:53. | |
Minister, I hope she will be saying to the Israeli Prime Minister that | :22:54. | :22:56. | |
it isn't good enough for them to continue with what they are doing. | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
The Israelis and Brits together will want a free-trade deal, whatever | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
happens. It's also important to emphasise that they we have our | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
profound disagreements, we are very intense collaborators with the | :23:10. | :23:12. | |
Israelis on intelligence, on Sciver and an all sorts of other issues. | :23:13. | :23:15. | |
Which is what the Prime Minister will be talking to Mr Netanyahu | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
about today. It isn't just one thing, it's a whole range of | :23:21. | :23:23. | |
interest. Just briefly, what did you think about the Americans idea of | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
moving their embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem? Catastrophic. Stupid, | :23:29. | :23:36. | |
foolish and idiotic. James, do you agree with that? If they did me the | :23:37. | :23:44. | |
embassy, would it be an enormous provocation to the Palestinians? On | :23:45. | :23:49. | |
one hand, Israel's capital is Jerusalem and west Jerusalem, where | :23:50. | :23:52. | |
the gunmen is position, is not really an area of dispute. DDB | :23:53. | :23:59. | |
Palestinians would like to have Jerusalem or East Jerusalem as their | :24:00. | :24:05. | |
capital? It's perfectly possible to have an American embassy in West | :24:06. | :24:08. | |
Jerusalem and in East Jerusalem. I hope this will be one of the many | :24:09. | :24:11. | |
things that Trump said he will do that he won't do. Thank you very | :24:12. | :24:13. | |
much for joining us. How do you guarantee | :24:14. | :24:16. | |
success as Prime Minister? Well, it's early days | :24:17. | :24:18. | |
for Theresa May, but luckily for her the academic and biographer | :24:19. | :24:20. | |
Anthony Seldon has put I am Anthony Seldon, | :24:21. | :24:22. | |
and I have written biographies of most Prime Ministers | :24:23. | :24:35. | |
since Winston Churchill came The popular image of most | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
of these Prime Ministers is that they were failures - | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
even the two genuine successes post-war, Clement Attlee | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
and Margaret Thatcher, had careers that fizzled | :24:47. | :24:48. | |
out at Number 10. So what is it that Prime Ministers | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
could be doing to make a success Here are ten points gleaned | :24:53. | :24:55. | |
from a lifetime of study, which I think that if those | :24:56. | :25:05. | |
Prime Ministers were to follow, they would have happy days leaving | :25:06. | :25:07. | |
Number 10 not in tears, Get them doing the jobs, policy, | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
politics, presentation, Parliament. Don't fall out of with | :25:12. | :25:23. | |
Cabinet Secretary. Find it early on and propagate it, | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
or the media will do it for you. Get your two or three big themes out | :25:29. | :25:36. | |
there early on and stick to them relentlessly all the way | :25:37. | :25:47. | |
through to the end Make your Cabinet ministers, your | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
officials, your team do the work. Carve out your own time greedily | :25:52. | :26:00. | |
for thinking, resting, relaxing, Set your expectations of them very | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
early on and stick to them. Find a Cabinet fixer | :26:05. | :26:15. | |
to be chief prefect, to yap at their heels and keep | :26:16. | :26:28. | |
them in order. Have a fight with them | :26:29. | :26:31. | |
early on and win it. You're not just Head of Government, | :26:32. | :26:37. | |
your half Head of State, You're going to be in charge | :26:38. | :26:48. | |
of relations with the US, Eight - seize the big | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
moments and command them. The major financial events, | :26:54. | :27:04. | |
the crises, the cock-ups. Weave everything | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
into your own themes. Minimise reshuffles, | :27:09. | :27:15. | |
initiatives, relaunches. You might be First Lord | :27:16. | :27:21. | |
of the Treasury, but you are not Find someone who you trust totally, | :27:22. | :27:38. | |
neither tiger ignore poodle. This relationship will | :27:39. | :27:48. | |
make you or break you. And Anthony Seldon joins us | :27:49. | :28:04. | |
now from Northampton. Welcome to the Daily Politics. We've | :28:05. | :28:16. | |
heard your advice in detail to a Prime Minister. How do you think | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
Theresa May is doing against those ten points? I think she's doing | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
pretty well at the moment. Seven months in, she had no time to think | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
and prepare for what she was going to do, unlike President Trump who | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
had two months after the election. She's got a big scene in Europe. | :28:34. | :28:40. | |
She's got themes, two, around social mobility. She's got a strong team in | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
Number 10. I think she's doing pretty well. To your rules apply. As | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
you say, she's got this normal task to achieve, which is taking Britain | :28:50. | :28:54. | |
out of the EU. Do your rules apply to their Prime Minister with that | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
sort of role? Absolutely. I think that coming to office without that | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
time to prepare for it, having your one biggest bean picks for you I | :29:04. | :29:11. | |
think is a great help. -- one biggest theme. For Gordon Brown, his | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
biggest theme was the crisis in the world economy. That was thrust on | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
him. When he lost that even, when it slipped out of primary view, he lost | :29:22. | :29:24. | |
focus and it became utterly apparent that it was unclear why he was there | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
in Number 10, why he had ousted Tony Blair out of office. So I think it's | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
going to help her. But she's been quite clever in getting her other | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
themes percolating under the surface. But even with that, | :29:38. | :29:45. | |
Nicholas Soames, other things percolating the there is a risk that | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
Brexit overshadows every other bit of government policy. I think it's | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
important that it doesn't. I believe entirely with what Anthony has said. | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
If anyone should know what a Prime Minister should do, it is him, from | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
very careful study. But I think it's very important that all the other | :30:03. | :30:05. | |
things that need to be dealt with by government dealt with at the same | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
time. And that it doesn't dominate the agenda. But it will, when it? It | :30:10. | :30:16. | |
on how much time. The negotiations will go on well into two years of | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
negotiating, and there's an enormous amount to do in this country. | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
Do you think Theresa May is taking Anthony's advice in terms of how to | :30:26. | :30:32. | |
run prime ministerial office? At the risk of being trolled on Twitter, I | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
think she's done a very, very good job and must be feeling quite | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
pleased at how things have gone. Given that she came in there, | :30:42. | :30:47. | |
really, after losing the referendum, in the sense that she was on the | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
other side, and then have had to pick up and get a party that was | :30:52. | :30:57. | |
divided on it seeming, I'm afraid, a lot more united than my party at the | :30:58. | :31:00. | |
moment. But you would say that because you are a Leaver and she is | :31:01. | :31:07. | |
putting in place what you have long supported... I think she has come in | :31:08. | :31:13. | |
and I just, when I watch Prime Minister's Questions now or see her | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
particularly abroad at international events, I have to say I feel quite | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
proud that she is the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. You sound | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
like you wanted joined the Conservatives! I just think the | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
public is fed up with every time a politician say something, the other | :31:32. | :31:34. | |
side has to oppose it. We have to recognise sometimes that the country | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
comes first and what she's doing at the moment, under difficult | :31:39. | :31:41. | |
circumstances, I think are reasonable in terms of Brexit and | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
the way she has handled... That is not what your leader Jeremy Corbyn | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
says every week at Prime Minister's Questions. To pick up on what Kate | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
says, it is a much easier job for her because she voted for Remain. I | :31:55. | :31:58. | |
think if it was a Brexit Prime Minister it would be much harder. | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
But there is another point there which is she has that kind of common | :32:03. | :32:09. | |
sense leadership and a sense of wisdom that Jim Callaghan had, who | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
was also a Prime Minister at difficult times, let's remember the | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
IMF crisis, when he had one big theme and developed other things | :32:19. | :32:21. | |
also, probably too late in his case but has that sense of the common | :32:22. | :32:28. | |
person, the man on the street who feels, yes, this is somebody who | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
understands my life, and that's quite a rare and quite important at | :32:34. | :32:39. | |
the present time... Her PR operation will be very pleased with these | :32:40. | :32:44. | |
interviews, but your recent biography of David Cameron, which | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
will did he fail to follow that lead to his resignation? I think he was | :32:49. | :32:55. | |
in a very difficult position on the referendum, and I think that he | :32:56. | :33:03. | |
would have been much wiser to have listened more widely, the mistake I | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
think he made on the referendum was to imagine that the other side were | :33:08. | :33:13. | |
full of people who were foolish, he should have given much more credit | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
to the many, many sensible people, I was eight Remainer but I respect | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
people on the Brexit side, they had many good arguments, and I think you | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
lost touch and became over obsessed with giving a negative view, so I | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
think losing touch with people, with his Cabinet, becoming too much of a | :33:33. | :33:41. | |
bunker. It is very hard in that building, Nicholas and Kate will | :33:42. | :33:44. | |
know that you tend to get in a bunker after a few years, look | :33:45. | :33:47. | |
inwards rather than outwards. Let's look at what happens to Theresa May | :33:48. | :33:50. | |
and whether Brexit does dominate everything over the next few years. | :33:51. | :33:52. | |
Thank you. Now, the majority of Labour MPs | :33:53. | :33:53. | |
who believe Britain should stay in the EU have been agonising | :33:54. | :33:55. | |
about how to vote on the bill that will allow Theresa May to begin | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
the process of our withdrawal. She one of a handful | :34:00. | :34:02. | |
who campaigned for Brexit Let's just remind ourselves | :34:03. | :34:05. | |
of the contribution that MUSIC: "Leave Right | :34:06. | :34:08. | |
Now" by Will Young. # Think I'd better leave right now | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
before I fall any deeper. # I think I'd better | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
leave right now. # Somebody better show me how | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
before I fall any deeper. # I think I'd better | :34:23. | :34:30. | |
leave right now... Free movement is not | :34:31. | :34:33. | |
about being benign, it's about bidding down wages, | :34:34. | :34:42. | |
it's making sure wages are kept down If you cannot get rid of the people | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
that are in an institution, # Somebody better show me out | :34:47. | :34:53. | |
before I fall any deeper. # I think I'd better | :34:54. | :35:04. | |
leave right now #. Kate Hoey and her Brexit-supporting | :35:05. | :35:15. | |
Labour colleagues there. But there's been controversy | :35:16. | :35:18. | |
about the relationship between Labour Leave and the party's | :35:19. | :35:22. | |
political foes in Ukip. Electoral Commission records show | :35:23. | :35:25. | |
that Ukip accepted a donation The Labour MEP Seb Dance has | :35:26. | :35:27. | |
complained to the Labour Party about that donation, | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
and joins us now. Welcome to the Daily Politics, why | :35:33. | :35:42. | |
does it matter if Labour Leave gave money to Ukip? It is not officially | :35:43. | :35:46. | |
affiliated to the party so surely it is not bound by the same rules? It | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
is not affiliated but members of Labour Leave are members of the | :35:51. | :35:53. | |
Labour Party and there is a clear role in the Labour Party's rule book | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
that if you give money and support another political party then you are | :35:58. | :36:01. | |
effectively excluded from the Labour Party. Kate Hoey, what did you say | :36:02. | :36:09. | |
to that? It was not a donation, it is down as a donation but that is | :36:10. | :36:17. | |
what the electoral commission told us, Labour Leave organised with | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
various groups in rallies all over the country and this was our share | :36:22. | :36:25. | |
of the money that we had to pay towards the organisation, the | :36:26. | :36:29. | |
security and all of that. Very simple, there is nothing to be | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
hidden about this, and I'm just surprised that somebody who is an | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
MEP and has such a big important job for another year or so, to actually | :36:39. | :36:42. | |
not just push something like this, but, fine. I understand the need to | :36:43. | :36:49. | |
share platforms... Know, to share costs for the platforms. The ?15,000 | :36:50. | :37:00. | |
was the cost... ?18,500 went to Ukip Central party. Because that is who | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
paid out the cost and that is how the electoral commission told us to | :37:05. | :37:08. | |
do it. But there are two questions, the political question, why share | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
your platform with Ukip rather than the umbrella Vote Leave group, Ukip | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
are on the far right of politics and support an agenda that vilifies | :37:18. | :37:20. | |
people who have come to live and contribute to this country, why make | :37:21. | :37:24. | |
that political decision? And the second question is why the donation | :37:25. | :37:27. | |
was made specifically to Ukip and not through an umbrella group, to an | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
organisation that facilitates the sharing. Labour Leave organised with | :37:33. | :37:39. | |
Ukip and leave. EU and some of the Lib Dems who were in favour of | :37:40. | :37:42. | |
leaving rallies all over the country. The reason we did it was | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
because at those rallies there were thousands of Labour supporters, | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
ex-Labour supporters, and they wanted to see Labour MPs there | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
because it was important to them to know there were some people in the | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
Labour Party who wanted to leave. You are trying to make out as if | :38:00. | :38:03. | |
there is some kind of absolute support for Ukip, we opposed Ukip on | :38:04. | :38:06. | |
all sorts of things but the reality was Ukip or one of those many | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
organisations campaigning to leave... It is a different party, of | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
course, but were you comfortable with that, sharing a platform with a | :38:16. | :38:20. | |
political party that says it wants to replace Labour? I said right at | :38:21. | :38:25. | |
the beginning, so did the Conservatives, I did platforms with | :38:26. | :38:28. | |
David Davis and all sorts of people, this was a referendum, not on a | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
party political bases, and I said at the beginning I would step platforms | :38:33. | :38:35. | |
with anyone within reason who was wanting to leave the European Union. | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
And the Remain side held cross-party event as well | :38:41. | :38:57. | |
across the what was the difference? The difference here is having a | :38:58. | :39:00. | |
mainstream newsgroup, Vote Leave, and this Leave.EU funded by Aaron | :39:01. | :39:02. | |
Banks, supported by Ukip, and you have campaigning with the leader of | :39:03. | :39:04. | |
the United Kingdom Independence party, Nigel Barrage, on a yacht | :39:05. | :39:07. | |
during the so-called Battle of the Thames, the visuals are clear. You | :39:08. | :39:09. | |
have a political choice whether or not to align yourself with a | :39:10. | :39:12. | |
mainstream leave organisation. We did, we work with both, I did | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
meetings of Boris Johnson, is that acceptable? That would certainly fit | :39:18. | :39:23. | |
into the mainstream campaign... We also had grassroots... You embraced | :39:24. | :39:28. | |
the alternative as well, that is the issue. There is a difference between | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
official campaigns or unofficial campaigns and rival political | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
parties... No, that was not the way the referendum rules were let out. | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
Jo, I think this is absolutely not, all of it. I have shared platforms | :39:43. | :39:48. | |
with some absolute sewers in my time. Anyone who knows Kate Hoey | :39:49. | :39:54. | |
knows that she is a woman of absolute iron integrity. I don't | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
believe a word of this, I think it is just stuff and nonsense which | :39:59. | :40:01. | |
gets jumped on by the media as if it was some great... It is just not | :40:02. | :40:08. | |
true. Should Kate Hoey be sanctioned for this? I'm not questioning | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
people's integrity, unquestioning people's judgment. Same thing. No, | :40:14. | :40:19. | |
there is a key question about the account into which the money was | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
paid and all I have done is ask the general secretary of the Labour | :40:24. | :40:25. | |
Party to investigate whether this is a breach of the rules. That is fine, | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
he will talk to the electoral commission and the that was the | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
advice given. He may do but it is incumbent on these questions to be | :40:35. | :40:37. | |
raised, why was the money paid directly to Ukip's account? Is this | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
the difficulty with referendum campaigns, they are different? Isn't | :40:43. | :40:47. | |
this the problem. It is not a problem. I don't think it is a | :40:48. | :40:53. | |
problem, what we are talking about now, but sometimes after the | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
referendum the electoral commission needs to look generally at how it | :40:59. | :41:00. | |
has worked and whether there are changes to be made if we should ever | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
have another referendum. I was going to say what Kate has just said, it | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
may well be that they need to create a new framework for this. We have | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
not had one for a very long time, but the suggestion that something | :41:13. | :41:15. | |
wrong has been maliciously done is just rot. John Mills, our greatest | :41:16. | :41:23. | |
donor, you still want him to donate to the Labour Party, I hope? I want | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
everybody to donate to the Labour Party! As I said, there is a | :41:28. | :41:33. | |
political question as to why sharing a platform with Ukip is preferred | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
over Vote Leave... It wasn't preferred! And why it went to the | :41:38. | :41:44. | |
specific account, and other questions about involvement, pulling | :41:45. | :41:47. | |
in Stoke seems to favour Ukip, there are serious questions... Lets leave | :41:48. | :41:50. | |
it there, we have run out of time. Thank keep coming in, Seb Dance. | :41:51. | :41:53. | |
It's recess week next week, as both Houses of Parliament rise | :41:54. | :41:56. | |
But before they head off for a break, what's in store | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
The European Union Bill begins its three-day committee stage today. | :42:01. | :42:06. | |
We'll learn what amendments, if any, will be able to be debated | :42:07. | :42:09. | |
Communities Secretary Sajid Javid is expected to publish | :42:10. | :42:12. | |
the Government's long-awaited Housing White Paper tomorrow. | :42:13. | :42:13. | |
The big question is, will the Government switch focus | :42:14. | :42:16. | |
Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn will lock horns at midday | :42:17. | :42:20. | |
on Wednesday for Prime Minister's Questions. | :42:21. | :42:26. | |
Later that day we're expecting MPs to vote again | :42:27. | :42:28. | |
on the Brexit Bill which, if passed, will then move | :42:29. | :42:31. | |
And Thursday is the last day of business in the Commons and Lords | :42:32. | :42:35. | |
before both Houses rise for the February half-term recess. | :42:36. | :42:37. | |
We're joined now by Pippa Crerar, from the London Evening Standard, | :42:38. | :42:40. | |
and Chris Hope, from the Daily Telegraph. | :42:41. | :42:43. | |
Welcome to both of you. Chris, how many amendments if any do you think | :42:44. | :42:52. | |
will be selected? I'm not sure that many, their rather lots of | :42:53. | :42:59. | |
amendments gone down, only about 136 pages, 147 amendments, so not that | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
many, maybe 15 or so but the big question is how many get through. | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
They have got a majority around 30 with the DUP support, the | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
Government, so it is unlikely many will get through at all but it will | :43:12. | :43:16. | |
be tight. At issue of a meaningful vote rather than a take it or leave | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
it out. Pippa, what is, in your mind, and meaningful vote towards | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
the end of the two years? That is what everyone wants to know, there | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
have been several different amendments proposed by parties and | :43:30. | :43:31. | |
individuals in parties trying to get to the crux of that, whether it is | :43:32. | :43:36. | |
before UK Parliament, whether the final deal is on the table and | :43:37. | :43:42. | |
crucially a point about whether, if parliamentarians reject the final | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
deal, whether with then end up with the case as Theresa May suggested | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
where we go for Brexit it irrespective of a deal or not. It | :43:52. | :43:57. | |
will be thrashed out in the next few days, obviously a few amendments the | :43:58. | :44:01. | |
Government might find it difficult to make concessions on, for example | :44:02. | :44:05. | |
the suggestion that David Davis might be more relaxed about having | :44:06. | :44:08. | |
MPs kept updated on the process as we went along, there is a big | :44:09. | :44:16. | |
support coming around, an amendment proposed by Harriet Harman for the | :44:17. | :44:19. | |
rights of citizens already legally in the country at the time of the | :44:20. | :44:22. | |
Brexit boat and what happens to them. There may be ground given as | :44:23. | :44:28. | |
paper outlines on those areas, but how many Conservative Remainers do | :44:29. | :44:32. | |
you think could join forces with Labour and the SNP on that the | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
amendment of this meaningful vote? You have got Ken Clarke, others like | :44:38. | :44:41. | |
Dominic Grieve, Anna Sugrue, not more than half a dozen, there are | :44:42. | :44:49. | |
rumours of 27 by the weekend that could wreck the whole thing and | :44:50. | :44:53. | |
others saying it could trigger a general election, that is a doomsday | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
scenario. It will be an interesting few days but nothing more than that. | :44:58. | :45:03. | |
I had to smile at the remarked that David Davis would be happy to come | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
back and update Parliament! What about Labour, what do you think will | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
happen to those who voted against Labour's line in terms of | :45:12. | :45:23. | |
Last week 47 Labour MPs rebelled, including ten frontbenchers. It was | :45:24. | :45:30. | |
assumed they would have to stand down from the front bench, and did | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
so. But Diane Abbott managed to miss the vote fighting illness. There was | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
a lot of concern and upset the Labour backbenches that if she | :45:39. | :45:41. | |
managed to get away with it, unfortunately many people didn't | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
believe that she was genuinely ill, then what was the point of having a | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
three line whip? There was going to be a meeting of the Shadow Cabinet | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
tomorrow, and the Brexit subcommittee, which includes Diane | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
Abbott and the Brexit shadow secretary, and they will decide | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
whether to propose another three line whip. My understanding that | :46:03. | :46:06. | |
they will. Overall, Labour are good to back this, come what may. Whether | :46:07. | :46:11. | |
the individual amendments voted down or not, they still have said that | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
they're going to vote. So what is the point? If they're going to vote | :46:16. | :46:21. | |
for it anyway whether the amendment passed, Theresa May has nothing to | :46:22. | :46:24. | |
worry about? Not really, no. Although on some elements, I'm | :46:25. | :46:30. | |
wondering whether Diane Abbott might die arise and illness for Wednesday | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
evening. It might be sensible to avoid having to vote in favour of | :46:36. | :46:40. | |
Brexit, which should avoid doing at the moment! Right, well I will leave | :46:41. | :46:43. | |
that thought hanging in the air at the moment. Nicholas, were you one | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
of the 27 Tory MPs planning to support wrecking amendments, | :46:49. | :46:53. | |
according to Steve Baker, which will weaken the Prime Minister's hand? I | :46:54. | :46:59. | |
am a staunch remain. I campaigned for it, I'm very disappointed with | :47:00. | :47:05. | |
the results. My view now is that the best interest of my constituents and | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
my country are served by coming to a quick conclusion on this bill and | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
enabling the government and the Prime Minister, David Davis, Liam | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
Fox, or the other people involved to get on with the negotiations. Some | :47:19. | :47:25. | |
of the amendments will, I'm sure, be perfectly sensible. Yes. There are | :47:26. | :47:34. | |
people who, like Anna Soubry and Nikki Morgan, who feel so strongly | :47:35. | :47:39. | |
that they want to get this done. And to some extent, I support that. But | :47:40. | :47:44. | |
I'm not going to do anything to slow this bill up in the House of | :47:45. | :47:50. | |
Commons. You say some of the amendments are probably quite | :47:51. | :47:53. | |
sensible and you would support them. What would be wrecking about them in | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
that sense? Is it a case that's one of your colleagues would see any | :47:58. | :48:01. | |
amendment? As is so often the case, anything that contravenes people who | :48:02. | :48:04. | |
disagree with you is wrecking amendments. That's rubbish and | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
hyperbole. But it's important that we press on. The quicker we do it | :48:09. | :48:14. | |
with a bigger majority and they get unanimity of the House of Commons, | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
the quicker it will be. You would be happy to support a non-wrecking | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
amendment. The rights of EU nationals to be guaranteed, would | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
that be one you would support? I believe that's a very important | :48:29. | :48:32. | |
matter. Nobody's seen the amendments. There is 136 pages of | :48:33. | :48:37. | |
them. Plenty to get through. We know there will be won on this meaningful | :48:38. | :48:40. | |
vote. Would you support that amendment for a meaningful vote for | :48:41. | :48:45. | |
you and your colleagues at the end of this process, or towards the end | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
of this process, so you could hand it back? It's entirely depends on | :48:50. | :48:53. | |
what the government says during the debate. I think the government will | :48:54. | :48:56. | |
come up with words that will be reassuring to the House of Commons, | :48:57. | :49:01. | |
and I will wait and see them. But I do think it's important the house is | :49:02. | :49:04. | |
involved fully all the way through. What would be wrong with a | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
meaningful vote just to say to be Prime Minister, could you go back | :49:09. | :49:11. | |
and improve it? I think Nicholas speaks for a lot of people who voted | :49:12. | :49:17. | |
to remain, who now I accept it, and willingly, but accept it, and want | :49:18. | :49:23. | |
to get on with things. Going into these negotiations, it's really | :49:24. | :49:26. | |
important that the other EU countries see our country as united | :49:27. | :49:32. | |
as possible on this. That's why I can't see any, you know, this is a | :49:33. | :49:35. | |
very narrow bill, to simply allow the negotiations to stop. I do think | :49:36. | :49:40. | |
the amendment on the EU citizens is one that I hope the government will | :49:41. | :49:43. | |
find a way of responding to that amendments to make us feel even more | :49:44. | :49:47. | |
willing to support it. But the reality and that is their one | :49:48. | :49:51. | |
countries in the the European Union holding out. You do still support, | :49:52. | :49:58. | |
as you said... Of course. It's so obvious, it's common sense. I want | :49:59. | :50:03. | |
to make sure that our citizens in other European countries are equally | :50:04. | :50:07. | |
protected. I think that will happen. But I'm not sure that just passing | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
an amendment because it makes us feel better will change the | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
situation in terms of the reality. That's why we have to wait to hear | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
the debate. But at the end of it all, I think on Wednesday night | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
there will be a majority, a big majority, to pass the bill through | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
to the House of Lords. Particularly since Labour has said that they're | :50:30. | :50:31. | |
not going to reject triggering article 50. Finally, before I talk | :50:32. | :50:37. | |
to Kate Hoey about Labour's position, on this result in the end, | :50:38. | :50:44. | |
should MPs have a result on a deal, if it is presented, be given enough | :50:45. | :50:50. | |
time for that to be improved and scrutinised, rather than at the very | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
end of the process when if they reject it the country would fall on | :50:55. | :50:58. | |
to WTO rules? I'm not trying to pick my words. I think it's important | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
that we get the best deal possible. Sure. And that it is quite clear to | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
Parliament what the government intends to do. I want full | :51:09. | :51:11. | |
Parliamentary scrutiny throughout the process. How that will work out, | :51:12. | :51:16. | |
it's impossible to say today. But we will let you know Wednesday. Anna | :51:17. | :51:21. | |
Soubry said if there is no deal she was a meaningful vote. What, in your | :51:22. | :51:25. | |
mind, do you think she means? I don't know what she means. You don't | :51:26. | :51:30. | |
know what she means? Right. I think the government are very well seeing | :51:31. | :51:35. | |
the need to involve Parliament. This is not a great point of contention. | :51:36. | :51:40. | |
Right. On the subject of Diana, she holds an important subject on the | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
front bench. If she fails to vote to trigger Article 50 in line with what | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
Jeremy Corbyn has said, should she be sacked? That would be up to our | :51:50. | :51:53. | |
leader. In your mind, should she be? I think Jeremy had to put a three | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
line whip because that delivers position to be Labour supporters who | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
voted to leave and don't want to see Labour wrecking this. Jeremy, being | :52:04. | :52:09. | |
someone who was a rebel or his life, it's much more difficult for him to | :52:10. | :52:13. | |
turn around and sack people. But should you, if they don't follow | :52:14. | :52:17. | |
what the party line is particularly when there is a three line Whip? | :52:18. | :52:21. | |
Whether Diana sacked or not, she still going to be one of those | :52:22. | :52:26. | |
leading Labour people in the current administration. She will be someone | :52:27. | :52:30. | |
who Jeremy will rely on a lot for advice will. Even if she loses her | :52:31. | :52:37. | |
position as Shadow Home Secretary? Yes, I do think that. Diane has done | :52:38. | :52:42. | |
herself a bit of disservice by having said clearly that she was a | :52:43. | :52:51. | |
remain, and that she would be voting for Article 50. Then as not to turn | :52:52. | :52:55. | |
up was a bit pointless, because it didn't achieve anything. I haven't | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
spoken to Diane. Maybe she was so ill that she couldn't come. Although | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
many people were seriously ill and made it. I think that's why she has | :53:04. | :53:07. | |
done herself a disservice and it's up to her to get out of it. She | :53:08. | :53:13. | |
should apologise for behaving rather stupidly. Diane, if you're | :53:14. | :53:13. | |
listening! Now, it's official - | :53:14. | :53:16. | |
diplomacy is dead. Nowadays 140 characters fired off | :53:17. | :53:18. | |
in haste from a Twitter account Such behaviour used to be | :53:19. | :53:20. | |
confined to backbench MPs. But now, of course, it's the modus | :53:21. | :53:24. | |
operandi of the President Here's Jenny Kumah with the top five | :53:25. | :53:26. | |
most undiplomatic tweets. At five, its Ukip's only MP, | :53:27. | :53:37. | |
Douglas Carswell, with his smiley Tweeted after his party's | :53:38. | :53:40. | |
leader, Nigel Farage, announced his resignation | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
following the Brexit votr. A tweet of no words, | :53:46. | :53:48. | |
but it said so much. In at number four, former Shadow | :53:49. | :53:51. | |
Culture Secretary Michael Dugher uses his Twitter biography to hit | :53:52. | :53:57. | |
back at the Labour leader. He tells followers that he was | :53:58. | :54:01. | |
sacked by Jeremy Corbyn for "too much straight | :54:02. | :54:04. | |
talking, honest politics." In and number three, | :54:05. | :54:10. | |
it's former Labour MP Jamie Reed. He's leaving Parliament to take | :54:11. | :54:12. | |
a big job in the nuclear industry. But back in October, | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
he smugly tweeted... In at number two, Conservative MP | :54:18. | :54:30. | |
Nicholas Soames has a go at ITV's At number one, it has | :54:31. | :54:34. | |
to to be Donald Trump. There are so many to choose from, | :54:35. | :54:47. | |
but here's just one example. Well, should we congratulate | :54:48. | :55:14. | |
Nicholas Soames for making the top five? I don't find myself in very | :55:15. | :55:21. | |
good company! Not us, obviously. Should President Trump give up | :55:22. | :55:27. | |
Twitter? I think we will find retweets less, and yes, I think you | :55:28. | :55:31. | |
should. You've got to get himself into even more trouble. -- he's | :55:32. | :55:36. | |
going to get himself. The problem with Twitter is that you do think | :55:37. | :55:40. | |
you will be sensible and do nothing in impulse, but you do. And I think | :55:41. | :55:45. | |
that's the danger. It's a terrific way of communicating, although I | :55:46. | :55:50. | |
think it does lead to some very nasty people around, who actually | :55:51. | :55:57. | |
pick up you and have a real go. So, yes, he should stop using it. But he | :55:58. | :56:03. | |
won't. Do you agree? I don't think the President of the United States | :56:04. | :56:06. | |
should operate by Twitter, but that is the way he's going to operate. We | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
all have to get used to the fact that we've never had to deal with a | :56:11. | :56:13. | |
man like this before in our lives, any of us. He's entirely | :56:14. | :56:18. | |
transactional. This is how he ran his businesses and this is how he | :56:19. | :56:21. | |
will run the presidency. It is what it is. It's going to be very tough | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
to keep a handle on it, but he is going to it to communicate over the | :56:26. | :56:29. | |
top with the Washington establishment to his huge number of | :56:30. | :56:34. | |
supporters in the country. Do you think that will catch on and that's | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
what will happen, not Theresa May necessarily? With part of the | :56:40. | :56:42. | |
problem of politicians. We talked earlier about getting into the | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
bunker. The media don't get out of London enough. They don't actually | :56:47. | :56:51. | |
talk to people who in the end of the people who, for example, on the | :56:52. | :56:54. | |
referendum came out and voted who had never voted before. Those are | :56:55. | :56:57. | |
the same people that Donald Trump got out to vote. Harry make one | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
point? I think that's a very good point. Anthony Seldon made a report | :57:03. | :57:11. | |
about how thoughtful Theresa May was and one of the things people like | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
very much about the Prime Minister is that she does think it through. | :57:16. | :57:18. | |
She obviously listens and thinks it through. This chap doesn't think it | :57:19. | :57:25. | |
through. But it's a way of reaching his supporters. Do you self-centred? | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
As Kate said, when you're in the zone of tweeting, have you lost | :57:30. | :57:34. | |
sight? I have some important walls. I don't do it at night or when I've | :57:35. | :57:37. | |
had a cocktail. And I'm reasonably careful about what I say. Reasonably | :57:38. | :57:44. | |
careful? I like the idea! Trump has tweeted, I call my own shots largely | :57:45. | :57:51. | |
based on an accumulation of data. Fake news media in order to | :57:52. | :57:56. | |
marginalise - lies. So he's at it this morning and probably only just | :57:57. | :58:01. | |
got up. He's not going to give up. He mind so much about any form of | :58:02. | :58:09. | |
criticism. The crowds. Yeah. It's telling about Trump's character. | :58:10. | :58:14. | |
What does it help? That he is a narcissist. He was upset. On that we | :58:15. | :58:17. | |
will just There's just time before we go | :58:18. | :58:17. | |
to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was, what is | :58:18. | :58:23. | |
Marine Le Pen ditching? Any ideas? I know. You go first? | :58:24. | :58:39. | |
It's her family name because they don't want to be associated with her | :58:40. | :58:46. | |
father. She is known as just Marine. She fell out with her father. I | :58:47. | :58:52. | |
would add the lot of them, except for the whole! That's it for today. | :58:53. | :58:54. | |
The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now. | :58:55. | :58:57. | |
I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big political | :58:58. | :58:59. | |
stories of the day - do join me then. | :59:00. | :59:02. | |
Gentlemen, do you have any prior motoring convictions? | :59:03. | :59:07. |