10/02/2017 Daily Politics

Afternoon folks, welcome to the Daily Politics.

Another day, another Jeremy Corbyn shadow team reshuffle -

this time after one fifth of his MPs defied his order to vote in favour

We'll take a look at the Labour leader's new top team.

With the start of Brexit talks just weeks away,

who will the UK Government be negotiating with?

We report from Brussels on the EU's Brexit Negotiators.

Do potholes in the road drive you crazy?

We meet the local volunteers in Devon who are helping to repair

Do you think we should have new legislation for robots?

And should we be worried about the rise of robots?

Why Members of the European Parliament are demanding

new regulation to protect humans from artificial intelligence.

All that in the next hour, and with me for the first half

of the programme today, Anne McElvoy, senior

First today, MPs and campaigners have described their shock

at the Government's decision this week to limit the so-called Dubs

scheme, which allowed a number of unaccompanied migrant children

In total, 350 children will be resettled here,

far short of the 3,000 that had originally been suggested -

although the Government never committed to a specific figure.

Here's Home Secretary Amber Rudd in the Commons yesterday.

The Government has always been clear that we do not want to incentivise

perilous journeys to Europe, particularly by the most

That is why children must have arrived in Europe before the 20th

of March 2016 to be eligible, under Section 67 of

The Section 67 obligation was accepted on the basis

that the measure would not act as a pull factor for children

to Europe and that it would be based on local authority capacity.

The Government has a clear strategy and we believe this

So is there any credibility in the Government's position that we should

really only be taking from the camps in the region rather than the

unaccompanied children refugees who have made it to Europe already?

There is credibility to the extent that the British Government and this

goes back to David Cameron, were more corn -- concerned about pull

factor arguments than other, and that has broadly turned out to be

right. There is a very large number of vulnerable young adults, and

children, who can be sucked into people trafficking, if that pull

factor isn't addressed. I think the problem she has, is that that

number, the 3 thousand 0. Were, although the Government never

directly said, there was an expectation they had given into the

spirit of the Dubs proposals so to suddenly say now, it is going to be

a small number and it is very small, they are saying the scheme won't end

but it will be very small in come before a son, it sound like they

didn't believe what they said last year, or they have changed tack,

that is where I think Amber Rudd, who is often a very Admiral, still

emerging Home Secretary, she needs better narrative skill, she needs to

explain, a lot people won't agree, she needs to explain more clearly.

The fact is these kids are in Europe, now, the European council

themselves have a responsibility but it is all our responsibility in a

way. Would it not, does it not seem churlish, even if we are bringing

people in from the camps, does it not just seem churlish to limit the

number to 350, one of the richest countries in the world, with a

record of welcoming people who have hit on bad times, I mean, does not

just, it is not really very good for what we think of ourself, as a

nation. I think that, all of that has a lot of truth to it, but it

doesn't answer the question you are faced as Home Secretary, you are

saying 350 is a small number, I agree. I don't feel good about that.

But let's say you doubled it or trebled it. You would have the same

argument. When you say they are already in Europe, yes, that is how

pull factor work, some people who made it through a system, that

wasn't really working very well, the camp at claim has to be disbanded,

the fate of those children probably worse having got to the camp... But

you would have to go back to saying you wanted the original figure. I

think many people thought we were proceedings on the basis of the

original figure. Why is there this talk of the pull factor now if it is

a factor, many people doubt that, why was there not talk of that when

the scheme was first mooted? Amber Rudd's argument, is that they

didn't, as far as they were aware it does seem that the pull factor

matters. Therefore, she has, in effect changed tack, and that is the

thing she is struggling with. If you think in end this is such a

humanitarian crisis that doesn't matter, then, you will always say

the numbers are too small and the 3,000 figure will come back on the

table. The pressure she will be under is why change tack at all? If

you do you better be able to explain in a more convincing way why.

As a presidential candidate, Donald Trump used Twitter to bypass

the mainstream media and mint several slogans key to his campaign,

and in his first weeks in the White House he's shown no

The question for today is, what new phrase has the 45th

And in about half an hour Anne will give us the correct answer.

Jeremy Corbyn reshuffled his shadow cabinet -

The mini-reshuffle was needed after Clive Lewis, Rachel Maskell

and Jo Stevens resigned from the Shadow Cabinet

in order to rebel on this week's Article 50 Bill.

Rebecca Long-Bailey has been promoted from Shadow Chief Secretary

of the Treasury into Lewis's old role of Shadow

She is seen as a rising star of the party, loyal

to Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell, who described her as "brilliant"

and part of the next generation of socialist leadership.

Coming into her old position is Peter Dowd, who became MP

for Bootle on Merseyside in 2015 having previously led

The new Shadow Environment Secretary is Sue Hayman, another MP

from the 2015 intake, who represents

She had previously served as Maskell's deputy

Christina Rees, MP for Neath, is the new Shadow Welsh Secretary,

having previously quit her shadow justice role during

the mass-resignations last summer, before being reappointed last

Three frontbench positions remain unfilled this afternoon,

including the shadow equalities brief previously

Rumours of other moves include a new role for Jon Trickett,

who could be removed from his elections co-ordinator

brief just two weeks before crucial byelections in Stoke and Copeland.

That gives you an idea of what is going on. Let's, let's go now to our

discussion, we are joined from Glasgow by our guest and our guest

in London. Is he scraping the bottom of the barrel? I don't think, so I

am very excited to see Rebecca Hobb in the role of shadow business, I

think to say scraping the barrel is totally, does not reflect the talent

put in. What is her qualification for being Shadow Business Secretary?

He has been working in the economy team since she became an MP, and I

think she will bring something new. What does she know about business? I

don't know her full-back ground but I would say we didn't ask questions

about Clive Lewis, it is important we allow everyone to grow into a

role... It is important you pick people who are qualified to do it.

What are her qualifications? I would say she has been working and the

Labour Party with John McDonnell, has been, he has been at the core of

doing that policy she has been integral to our policy round

business, and negotiations round building this new policies,

anti-austerity policy. I am excited to see what she comes with up. It is

British politics could do with fresh names, particularly some more women

in top positions, what is wrong with this I think the issue is these are

2015er, I am old enough... You mean they entered Parliament in 2015? Yes

I remember when they had to serve a few year, understand the mechanics

of the House of Commons, become familiar at the despatch box because

the danger of throwing in Newbies in this way, is up against experienced

opposition they sufficient, they will make mistakes but it speaks to

the broader challenge Jeremy Corbyn face, because people don't want to

serve. That is why the kids have been thrown to the front, us in the

front line. Rebecca Long-Bailey is 37. In Parliamentary terms. May seem

like a kid to me! John McDonnell describes her as brilliant, do you

agree? My one observation was at Labour Conference when she was

shadow chief secretary, she was speaking on the economy, and her

opening remarks including good help us if I get to be Chancellor. So I

am not sure that... Really? OK. That may be at least honest. I am not

sure that is the sort of firm opening gambit you want. George

Osborne made it and many people felt the same. Who knows? Knows? There

are a further 14 front bench MPs who voted against this whip, are they

expected to be fired or will they keep their jobs? I'm not sure what

is going to happen, it is in the hands of Nick Brown, it will be down

to him. To look at what is going to happen. But overall I think that we

have had a pretty mature, you know, process around the Brexit vote,

there has been disagreement between the party but the party stayed

together and I am quite heartened by the way things have unfolded over

the past couple of days with Clive Lewis's resignation being put in a

joint press conference. That the way we need to progress. Isn't it the

harsh truth is, that whoever was leader of the Labour Party, would

have a difficult time at moment. The party is split, over its attitude to

the Brexit negotiations and triggering them. This would be a

difficult job of party management, whoever was leader, and you could

argue that Mr Corbyn has made the best of a bad hand. That is the test

o of a party leader. Every party is composed of no -- different groups.

The test of a leader is to ewe ghiet them through their personality and

force of Will and thes of expect of pour. Jeremy Corbyn doesn't offer

the prospect of power because they have alienated most of the PLP. He

has spent his life breaking three line whips. No wonder the party is

coming apart. Another leader would have found that challenge but would

have been much more effective. What do you make of this, Anne? Isn't the

problem for Labour at the moment, because they, they are doing all

these reshuffle, names are coming forward, and it is just passing the

rest of the country by, they have no idea who we are talking about.

Indeed, you remember the historic case of Lord derby and the Cabinet.

I remember that! You probably covered it. I was the only one who

could name them! In fairness I would say discussing Rebecca Long-Bailey,

she has a cut through factor, I may not remember-from the start of the

last Labour Conference but a young left leaning voter they think she is

good. She is getting her chance, let us see how she does. The bigger

problem for Jeremy Corbyn, a lot of people who rebelled were people who

had been loyal to Jeremy Corbyn, before, and I am thinking like tough

technocratic left leaning MPs, Clive Lewis of course, so there is a

number of people you would expect to keep faith with Jeremy Corbyn, who

share a lot of his views, who don't think he is competent. He is in a

bad intersection where a lot of the party don't think his I ideas are

any good. Some think they are good but his execution is terrible and

that is a dangerous place to be in the Venn diagram of party politics.

There we go, we have gone from Lord Derby to Venn diagrams.

Is Jon Trickett still the election coordinator? As far as I am aware. I

have not heard anything about him moving. Things change, we are a long

way from a general election. I know he remains a core part of any team,

he is still in that position as far as I have heard. The election

coordinator, there are two important by-election is coming up, surely

that would be an important matter for the NEC as well, you are in the

business of winning elections? It would be important, it has not come

through to the NEC. I was part of the team short listing candidates

for Stoke and I am excited about the candidate we have put forward for

that. Are you going to win? Yes, I think we are. OK, we will see what

happens. Finally, on this, it is Clive Lewis on manoeuvres? Is he

beginning to build up a leadership team? I think everyone whose name is

in the papers is on manoeuvres. Everybody can see there is another

impending crisis in Jeremy Corbyn's leadership. Really? How is that? It

may not Ed Sheeran to a leadership challenge. When is the crisis going

to come? It is engulfing him at the moment, it always starts at the same

point, it is Europe, the European referendum kicked off Owen Smith's

challenge, his performance over Brexit and Article 50 has kicked off

this one. You have your ear to the ground, are these stories that Clive

Lewis is testing the waters, talking to people, seeing if there is an

appetite for him to be leader, do you have any indication that is

happening? Absolutely, people are speaking on Clive Lewis's behalf, as

they are for several others. Stick with us, because we are going to

look at this from a different angle. Earlier in the week we profiled

the key members of Theresa May's Today we're taking a look

at Jeremy Corbyn's inner circle. The olive branches outside the

Leader of the Opposition's office have been metaphorically offered to

members of the Labour Party during tough times. You see, Jeremy Corbyn

says he is not a traditional kind of party leader, he does things in a

different type of way. To see how, you only have to look at the

close-knit team of advisers in his office. But who are they and how do

they influence on? Karie Murphy is executive director of the leader 's

office. She likens herself to the Princess from the Disney film,

Brave. She keeps the show on the road, used to work for Tom Watson,

has close links with Len McCluskey, was caught up in a selection row in

Falkirk and was in a bad mood when she saw the Mood Box at the

conference, testing opinion on the cabinet. This is a stunned by ill

informed people. Nice to meet you too(!) Andrew Fisher is director of

policy. Known by insiders as Jeremy's brain, it was his idea to

ban companies that don't pay a living wage from handing out

dividends to shareholders. Before he became camera shy and join the team,

he was often at the podium himself. We need to talk about economic

rights. Ensuring the right to a free press is Seamus Mallon. He is the

architect of Project Suit, to get his boss to smarten up. The

government EU is in a difficult position. It has gone through one

disastrous season of events after another. The former Guardian

journalist is a highly trusted assistant. Cyber-crime not sure this

is a good idea. Looking at the longer term strategy, the former

Africa reporter James Schneider. An ex-Lib Dem and Green supporter, he

is a key link to Momentum, which he represented when he took to the

screens in the wake of the EU referendum result. MPs are

incredibly out of touch. That is why we have seen shocks in politics.

Nobody knows what is going on. Politics has changed, we are in a

national crisis period. If you fancy a quick rebuttal, here is your man.

Jeremy Corbyn's spokesman used to campaign against fixed odds betting

terminals at his own addiction to them. They are the most addictive

form of gambling, you can bet up to ?100 every 20 seconds. They are the

crack cocaine of gambling. When it comes to current campaigns, Simon

Fletcher has a firm grip on them. He was previously a close aide to Ken

Livingstone and is tasked with election planning. One election

winning member of Jeremy Corbyn's team is Katy Clark, an MP in

Scotland for ten years, including during the aftermath of the Scottish

independence referendum. You need a significant move to the left. What

this is about is not just about organisation, it is about policy. It

is clear the message from the referendum is that they want to

political change. People want Labour to be what it was created to be in

Scotland. She is now the bridge between the high command and the

parliamentarians, alongside Chief Whip Nick Brown. The official

opposition does not get help from the civil service, but it does have

the party machinery to fall back on here at the Labour Party

headquarters, in the heart of Westminster. Ian McNicol is the

general secretary of the Labour Party. Its organisational chief,

through thick and thin. Here is the truth of it, Labour has, and has

always had, the strength to fightback, strength in values, to

strengthen our ideas, the strength in our people. National broadcast

manager Katie Dylan helped sharpen the leader's image, but not any more

from inside the leader's office. He hasn't been able to convince one of

his own members, who told the press, you might shout,... The growl was

just play acting during PMQs Prep, not her true feelings.

Our guests are still here. Ria Wilson, under the team around Mr

Corbyn, he has managed to gain a net and favourability rating of 46

points behind Theresa May. Even those that voted Labour 2015 think

unfavourably towards him. Even the 18-24 year-old age group now feel

unfavourably. How long can this go on? I think that we have seen a

marked difference in the approach to Jeremy Corbyn's leadership over the

last couple of months, I think it is a positive transition. We have seen

a lot more of him, we have seen him on the Sunday Politics. I think that

is a positive change. Why was it not reflected in the polls? Theresa May

has a net rating of plus six, Jeremy Corbyn a net rating of -40! Mr

Farren only manages -19. When is that going to change? I think it is

going to be a process. Jeremy has not been in front of voters enough

and I think that is changing. We have seen a lot of exciting things

recently, we have seen a lot more coverage of policies, we have seen a

lot more fightback. It is going to be a process. I want to see those

numbers get better. If it is like this in a year, what do you do?

Supposing it is like this in one year, we have to look at how much...

The messaging we are putting across. To be honest, I don't think it will

be like that in one ear's time, I think positive change is going to

happen. I think it will be interesting with the by-election

coming forward. We should not understate how much of a difference

it is going to make, seeing the team, and Jeremy, growing in

confidence and having more face time with the electorate. More face time

with the electorate? I remember Gordon Brown telling me that, it

turned out the more they saw of him, the less they like him? If you talk

to him in Stoke or Copeland, the last thing we need in close

by-elections is face time from Jeremy Corbyn. The more our

supporters see him, the less we do well. At the end of the day, you can

collect different people around the leader, they can do this and that,

but the leader is the product, he is the brand. That is the fundamental

problem. One point on that report, it was interesting that we had a

clip from Karie Murphy, being particularly cross and angry. If we

are looking at the reshuffle, Jon Trickett's departure, the word is

that it is partially with disagreements with her, a break down

in relations with the leader 's office. It is a sign of the pressure

accumulating around him. Rhea Wolfson says it is beginning to come

together and they have a team in place. Is the team functioning

properly around Mr Corbyn? Patently not. Since Jeremy Corbyn relaunched

at the start of the year, our figures have gone backwards. If you

speak to campaign that are open Copeland and stroke, his brand

deteriorating. He has been doing nothing to turn that around. To be

fair to his team, there is little you can do. You can avoid things

like the other night, when he tweeted after Article 50 has been

passed, the real fight starts now. Many would have said it was last

year, or before the vote. To misunderstand that is to

misunderstand the Labour Party and politics. Rhea Wolfson thinks they

can hold onto the by-elections, what is your view? Do it we have got is

that Copeland started badly, but we are coming back. That is looking a

bit more positive, particularly because of the local hospital issue.

Stoke is more difficult. Stoke is more vulnerable to Ukip? Much more

vulnerable. Lets leave it there, Rhea Wolfson and Atul Hatwal, thank

you for joining us. Now, one of the big issues of our

time. How prepared would you be to mend

the potholes in your local roads? In Devon, the local authority has

set up a scheme so that volunteers But as Jenny Kumah reports,

not everyone's happy about it. But here in Devon, around 100

volunteers have signed up to a council-run scheme to patch up

the smaller holes themselves. Ken Browse lives in the village

of Halverton, and he is part of the yellow army of

volunteer road wardens. He has training and insurance

from the County Council and he's Grants are available to help

pay for the materials, but the parish council also has

to contribute towards the cost Some people say it's double

taxation, because we pay our council tax, all this should be done,

but trouble is, when the money won't go round and the money's been

spent on childcare and adult social So, you know, it's a job that

needs doing, we're here, People in Devon are being asked to

do more for their local community. Volunteers already cut

the verges, weed the pavements So maintaining the roads

is an expensive business, especially here in Devon,

which has the largest road According to the County Council it

would cost ?750 million to complete the backlog of repairs and to get

the roads in tip top condition. Show me how do this

Ken, can I have a go? Yes, you just keep tapping

until it sounds different. This certainly keeps

you fit, doesn't it. This year the council got

?45 million from the Government for road repairs, but the council

says it needs around ?15 million So is this scheme

a form of cheap labour? No, I don't think

it is cheap labour. We find that the parish

councils are coming to us, and they're taking pride

in their communities, and they're saying they would like to come

and help the County Council doing things around their communities,

because they understand at the end of day that the County Councils

aren't getting so much The council is investing ?100,000

in the volunteer scheme, to cover the cost of training,

insurance and materials. And it still repairs the bigger

potholes that meet the set criteria. But not everyone's happy

about this scheme. The road warden scheme means

they expect free labour to fill in holes in the road,

dig out the ditches and clean signs, but we're all paying our council

tax, we don't get any discount. They just pretend they

haven't got enough money. They should be more productive,

more efficient and still The national repair bill

for potholes will reach 14 billion by 2019, according

to the Asphalt Industry Alliance, and with councils across the country

seeing their government grants diminish, schemes like this one

could become more common. Devon County Council says it's

already had 11 other local authorities show interest in it,

so the prospect of volunteers maintaining your local highways may

not be too far down the road. And we've been joined

by Councillor Martin Tett, leader of Buckinghamshire County Council

and chairman of the Local Government Association's transport

board, and by Alex White So, we have seen the future of Tory

Britain, you have to fill in your own potholes? It is an interesting

scheme, with looking at. Councils already fill in something like 200

million potholes every year. There is not enough money to fill in all

of the ones that are being reported. An interesting scheme in Devon,

where you have quiet roads. A lot of them are on busy main roads, the

idea of somebody wandering out to throw some tarmac into a pothole on

a main road, it gives me the heebie-jeebies. Isn't this the Big

Society inaction? The idea of volunteers hoping out, we have been

devolving money down to town and parish councils, where we can train

them to do things like cut hedges, clearing ditches and cutting grass,

which is really good. I'm just worried about the safety aspect of

people in the middle-of-the-road without safety precautions.

It's a good idea. He is worried about the safety. I don't know about

the safety, maybe you are right about that, but I mean, the

important thing I think we have to recognise is that motorists are

completely fleeced in this country, if you look at how much is spent on

fuel duty, you get to about ?35 billion a year, what is spent on

roads is only about 9 billion. So while I am not... The tax isn't high

pot Kated I am not suggesting that. I am not suggesting it should be but

it is an indicator, if you look at how much we spent on roads compared

to rail with their subsidies for instance, you know, motorists are

fleeced and I think that the priorities and the transport budgets

are not correct and we should spend more on roads and Les on rail. You

would have to spend billion ports on the roads to get them up to the

standard, if you go round knocking on doors like I do, it is rods,

pavement and schools. Things like adult, social care, where the vast

amount of money goes doesn't get a mention on the doorstep. Fancy a bit

of poll hole filling? I have a high advice jacket. Of course, you didn't

do it terribly well so text year it flooded again and one thing that

councils could do which would try to square this difficult circle about

the Monday which is is a real thing, is if you were incentivised to do it

with guidance, you would provide the labour but you would need a bit of

training, that wouldn't be a bad idea. I think that is nearest you

get to the big society in action, where it nowry sides after David

Cameron. Why is why it is worth looking after. It is easy on quiet

country lanes with proper training. You wouldn't want to be in the

middle of the M1. If you come to Buckingham you would get run over.

Don't let the best be the enemy of the good. It is port an experiment.

Are you going to try it? That is a temporary fitting, that won't last,

that will come out within about... I worked that one out myself. Bear in

mind, if that comes out and somebody has an accident, a cyclist gets

injured or killed, who is the responsible party in probably the

County Council so there is a real responsibility when you start to

devolve this stuff. One of the basic snucks of Government is to keep the

roads safe. Absolutely. Why can't we do that? Because we are spending

money on the wrong things, because we... Such as? Let us look at

transport. We are spending a lot of money on HS2, there are far better

smaller rail schemes and road schemes that money should be going

on. It is not glamorous. More pothole filling, less HS2 You could

get more filled, and you would have money left over for minor road and

rail improvements. The money is there within the budget to fix this

programme, it is not being spent properly. We will leave it there,

We will leave it there, that is enough potholes.

It's time now to find out the answer to our quiz.

The question was what is the latest phrase Donald Trump has

Did he say in court because he is going to do a legal challenge? He

said see you in court when the court ruled against him on the travel ban

to which the Attorney General of Washington state replied we've seen

you in court twice and we've won twice, now it has to go to the

Supreme Court. It is a real interesting judicial problem for the

United States, at the moment. Not least given the Supreme Court.

Coming up in a moment, it's our regular look at what's been

For now it's time to say goodbye to Anne McElvoy

So for the next half an hour we're going to be focussing on Europe.

We'll be looking at who the EU's Brexit negotiators are,

how the EU has responded to Donald Trump's arrival

in the White House, and whether robots need

First though, here's our guide to the latest from Europe -

MPs overwhelmingly agreed to let the Government begin the UK's

departure from the EU as they voted for the Brexit Bill.

Romania's Prime Minister insisted he won't resign,

despite mass protests calling for him and his cabinet to step down

over a now abandoned anti-corruption measure,

with many saying they had lost trust in their leaders.

Following the surge in fighting in eastern Ukraine

between government forces and Russian backed separatists,

EU foreign ministers condemned the attacks on civilians.

23 of the 28 member states are breaching air standards,

according to the European Commission.

It recommends phasing out environmentally damaging subsidies

such as tax breaks for privately used company cars.

And the idea to provide free inter-rail travel passes to all EU

citizens on their 18th birthday hit the buffers.

The European Commission will instead offer a cheaper plan,

awarding a general travel budget to schools.

And with us for the next 30 minutes I've been joined

by the UKIP MEP Gerard Batten, and Labour's Anneliese Dodds.

Welcome to you both. What happens in the European Parliament votes

against this deal in a couple of years' time? I think that is a very

good question and there is a possibility of that, it is just

before European elections so not always a great time to have rational

dispassionate debate on issues. Do we have any idea what the answer is?

Well I just hope we can get away from the kind of conflict eventual

argumentative approach we have had. You don't know? Well... I don't

know. If there is no deal which our British dealer said she would prefer

to a bad deal, I wouldn't, if that there is no deal, that means

exiting, World Trade Organisation rule, no clear future relationship.

It wouldn't be good for Europe either. It would be bad on all side.

What do you think would happen? Perhaps the council would do what it

does when the European Parliaments votes for a directive it doesn't

want because it has been amended in such a way, it ignores that and does

it any way, whether it has the power to reject the vote of Prince

Charlesment on this I don't know. That would be nigh on impossible. If

the European Parliament took a vote as Bray sick as the Brexit deal it

could hardly ignore it. What would happen is what Mrs May said would

happen, we would exit on World Trade Organisation... That is why going

down the Article 50 route wrong any way. That boat has left the harbour.

What we will do is have two-years of negotiation with people who don't

want to negotiation with us, and the end they have to have a deal they

can reject. What the Government could still do, and I am the Brexit

spokesman man for Ukip by the way, step one should be to repeal the

communities act, which would under our law mean we are no longer

member, all legislation would remain in place because it has been

incorporated as acts of Parliament. Bill Cash has done a good draft. We

haven't got time for that. But it that route, that has gone, that is

is not the Government's strategy. Exactly. It is also not how the

issues have set out in the treaties. We have to somehow make it work, we

have to be grown ups about this, we need to start actually having a

decent conversation, stop shouting at each other, stop threaten the

rest of the EU saying we will slap tariffs on the car, we need to have

an adult conversation ssm The Europeans have been vocal. I have

noticed a change in tone. A more constructive tone in the past couple

of weeks even. I think so. It is no good for the rest of the EU, if we

don't have a deal that will work for everybody at the end of this. We

have to somehow take some of the steam and the high fall

Lieutenanting politics out of this and talk about it rationally. Good

luck with that. Any way. When the Brexit talks get under way they will

be led by David Davis, for existing the EU we know that, but what about

the people he will be facing across the negotiating table? Adam Fleming

reports from Brussels on the EU figures going head-to-head with the

UK Government. Yes, he's going to negotiate

the Brexit deal with the UK. Y-yes...

Big deal-ish. French Foreign Minister,

a former European Commission and who was mastermind

of the 1992 Winter Olympics. His catchphrase is keep

calm and negotiate. Let's get a more three-dimensional

picture from MEPs who know him. I think he is a bit

taller in real life? What is Mr Barnier

like, do you know him? He is very expert can also come

in one of the most sensitive areas, He is not someone with anti-British

feeling, not at all. When he was Commissioner he always

looked for balanced solutions But of course, as a chief EU

negotiator, he will try, first of all, to protect

the interests of the union and also I could say that he is French

with a British style. That means he is very

concise, very precise. When someone gives him

an argument or an idea, if it is something reasonable,

he will say, OK, it was not my first But if he thinks there is a red

line, he will be always firm Parliament has its own negotiator,

Guy Verhofstadt, leader of the Liberal Group -

although his precise Is he going to be in

the room, actually? And he is a very good negotiator

and everybody recognises that. As Prime Minister of Belgium,

you gain a lot of experience if you have done that

and done it successfully. You know, we represent

half a billion people. It is absolutely vital that any

negotiation takes into account the needs and aspirations

of the people of the European Union. Then there's the man

from the council, Didier Seeuws. A Belgian lawyer,

hardly a household name. Let's find out more

from an old colleague. His excellent at coming

up with compromises when you have positions

which are seemingly irreconcilable. He often finds a way

of reconciling them. He will have the knowledge,

he will know the positions of the member states,

so will often be able to say to Barnier, yes, you can agree this,

or that would be a bit risky, it might not get endorsed

by the other member states, the 27. But wait, the cast of

characters gets even bigger. The trade Commissioner,

Cecilia Malmstrom will be a big player if the UK and the EU also try

and do a free-trade And never far from any

decision is Martin Selmayr, chief of staff to the commission

President, Jean-Claude Juncker. Give me one name, who is going to be

the most influential person It's the elected

representatives on both sides. So far, with his Gallic flair,

towering presence and ability to captivate the British press,

it does seem like the commission's Monsieur Barnier will be the one

who dominates the headlines. Any way. When the Brexit talks get

under way they will be led by David Davis, for existing the EU we know

that, but what about the people he will be facing across the

negotiating table? Adam Fleming reports from Brussels

What do we know of Mr Barnier? He has said one of the key things in

this debate, which is freedom of movement is is not up for

discussion, he said it can't be changed. Britain has to accept it.

But it, now that Mrs May said we are leaving the single market. The free

movement is not a matter for debate He is supposed to be negotiating our

position. No, theirs. In order to arrive at this mittical deal, he

said that freedom of movement is is not up for negotiation. It isn't a

matter now. I am not sure, Freeman was one of the four freedoms that

comes with being a member of the supermarket. We are saying rightly

or wrongly we will not be a member of the single market freedom of

movement is not an issue. The issue about tariff free trade. You went

saying that, you were talking about freedom of movement They are talking

about that to sort out the trade issues which is probably the second

biggest issue. A free trade deal you can do. We do them at the European

Union, the other countries bilateral, they don't involve

freedom of movement issue, the EU Canada deal which is the latest one

has no freedom of movement implications. Is that right.

Sometimes, when Britain is trying to secure trade deals with countries

like India, we have come a cropper on that. That is a Visa issue.

Exactly. You have said the British people have decided they don't want

to have freedom of movement, most opinion polls show that even a

majority of Leave voters said if there was a decision between having

access to trade across the EU and having some freedom of movement,

they would prioritise access to trade. Theresa May has decided she

wants to take us in a particular direction. There will be some

freedom of movement and some access to the single market. These are the

issues that have to be negotiated? Do we know anything yet, there were

so many names in that film, all with their own constituencies, and I

don't mean that in a political sense, their own interests in

Brussels, do we have any idea what the common line is going to be?

Ultimately, the EU 27, whether we are talking about them represented

in institutions or member states, they are wanting to ensure the best

outcome for all of them and that is one that has a good deal for Britain

as well. That will not happen if we keep having a 0-sum politics. If we

keep having a trade-off, if we have a deal that works for the rest of

the EU it will not work for Britain and vice versa. Who is saying that?

Some political voices, we have had the threats from Theresa May, if we

don't get that deal we will turn ourselves into a bargain basement

tax haven. That is your party's phrase, she never said that. She

said if we did come out on WTO rules, we would also need to

consider our economic model. There are plenty of choices between being

what we are now and Singapore, which is not much of a bargaining chip.

Philip Hammond push the same line, they know the messages they are

sending and I think they are damaging when we should be building

bridges, rather than blowing them up. If you hear what has come out of

Europe recently, listening to one of the Baltic states' ministers on

another channel, he was much more conciliatory. Poland is saying the

same. Even Michel Barnier says he understands the importance of the

London capital markets to the whole of the EU. I wanted to ask you this,

we have a rough idea I put it no higher than that because of the

White Paper, of the British negotiating position. Doesn't the

European Union now need to give its equivalent of its rough idea? That

is a very good point. We are going to have a very long two years of

protracted negotiations to end the Banega position, and we really

should know where we want to be now. We want freedom to make our laws, we

want to continue trading tariff free. Parliament has a vote on this,

these are things the European Parliament can scupper, by voting

against it, it is actually the council that makes the decision to

accept it or not. The Council of ministers does that. They are the

heads of government in their own countries. They will come under

tremendous pressure from their own industries and businesses to reach a

sensible agreement. Rather than the ideologues in the European

Parliament. One thing that could scupper negotiations would be the EU

insists on agreeing some kind of Brexit Bill upfront, whether it is

40 billion, 60 billion or whatever. I would suggest no British

Government can agree to that? Well, in an ideal world, would we be here

at all? I can understand their thinking. More recently, they have

been saying they want to agree a methodology for deciding what the

figure would be. What would we be paying for? Take one example,

imagine a Lithuanian civil servant who joined the commission when she

was 25. When she joined, the British state had a liability for part of

her pension. When she retires, in 40 or 50 years, whatever. That will

still be there in the future, in the same way that the British state has

a liability for my pension when I paid national insurance. But you are

not leaving the British state. You are aware that the pensions of

Brussels bureaucrats are between two and three times the average earnings

in Britain. You think the British people are going to stand for that,

paying for pensions that are up to three times their average wage? I

agree there will be difficult discussions about that. What I worry

about is that if this gets turned into something about bashing quite a

small number of people, and we are talking about small amounts of money

in comparison to the overall amount we are going to lose in trade deals,

and I'm not saying it is peanuts, but in comparison to what we could

lose, we need to look at these issues with an adult head on our

shoulders. What would you say to the demand, if that is what it is, for a

divorce Bill? The EU is going to do what everybody else is going to do,

when their income drops, they have to reduce their outgoings. There

will be people with pension liabilities and that will be fairly

minimal, I think, and he governments can agree between them how to deal

with that, when obligations, to particular people that have been

working. The idea of what Guy Verhofstadt is proposing, giving

billions of pounds to pay for our membership until the current budget

period end, it is pure fantasy. But there are a lot of things that you

promised we would keep getting, like research funds, different streams of

funding we were told we would still get. Potentially, the money has got

to come from somewhere. Research funds is quite a small proportion,

the Government could easily make that up. We will see. Ledge of time

to debate this in the weeks and months ahead.

Donald Trump's arrival at the White House just three weeks

ago has caused something of a political earthquake

in Brussels - with EU leaders going public with their concerns

about the new US president's approach to trade, defence

In an open letter the President of the European Council,

Donald Tusk, wrote "Donald Trump's presidency and the change in

Washington puts the European Union in a difficult situation,

with the new administration seeming to put into question the last 70

Chief Brexit Negotiator Guy Verhofstadt told think-tank

Chatham House in January that on a trip to Washington

after Donald Trump's election "Every European that I met in the US

Which is that the EU has fewer friends than ever in USA today."

And this week the EU's Trade Commissioner Cecilia Malmstrom

attacked Donald Trump's protectionist policies on trade

and migration saying: "Those who in the 21st century think

that we can become great again by rebuilding borders,

reimposing trade barriers and restricting people's freedom

One thing that is clear is that for the first time since this was an

issue, the White House is run by somebody that is basically hostile

to the European Union. That is a total change from any previous

administration. How should the EU handle this? I think it is very

important that we try to get some kind of workable relationship, but

not one where the EU, and we will talk about Britain as well, a

supplicant relationship. The idea that we have to support everything

Donald Trump is doing, or not criticise it, in order to have that

relationship. We will still have commercial relationships at the same

time as criticising him on human rights. Still going to depend on

America for your defence? Potentially. This whole development

could push more defence cooperation, across the EU, could push them into

working closer together. Spending more money? Who knows? That is for

the EU 27 now. We meet our 2% on Nato. An interesting point raised,

it could be, if the 27 now regard the White House as something that is

hostile to them, this could actually pull Europe together on a number of

fronts? Yes, I think they should cease their hostility to Mr Trump

and accept the situation in the real world, talk to his ambassador,

rather than insulting him. He has not been appointed yet. Here's a

fantasist. You are quite right, Andrew, if the

EU wants to preserve itself in some form, it should look at what has

gone wrong. All of these political things we have been talking about it

does, it should get back to the idea of facilitating trade and

cooperation, then it could have some kind of a future, like the European

free trade Association. That is what we were told it was supposed to be.

Nobody would object to that kind of thing. It is difficult for you, the

transatlantic trade deal is dead, it is over. It is dead in the water.

There is a huge argument over defence and the attitude to Russia.

We haven't even touched on the White House's attitude to trade and

currency policies. Rough times ahead? Yes, and the way we can face

up to them is not by supplicating ourselves in front of Donald Trump.

You talk about trade deals, we have had no assurance from the UK

Government, as part of a new deal between the UK and the US, our

services will not be opened up, health services, to the US. We

haven't even started negotiating yet. Mrs May said she wanted to

start... She said the NHS was not for sale. The trade deal, if it does

that, it is a matter for Parliament to decide. The British people will

decide. Yes, but I think the British people are quite disturbed by having

their leader appearing to fawn and supplicate herself in front of a

foreign leader. If people wanted control when they wanted to leave

the European Union, surely we don't want to leave the EU to become

controlled by the US? MEPs are gearing up for a vote next

week on proposals for a new law governing non military robots,

after a committee decided that great leaps in technology required

regulation at an EU level. Here's Adam again, who's been joined

by his new friend Sheldon. Do you think we should have

new legislation for robots? And MEPs on the Justice

committee agreed. They've spent two years coming up

with ideas for new legislation. The robots before were in industry,

they were kept far away from humans But it is also linked

to the interconnectivity, because the new generations

of robots are connected to networks So, they have become

a lot more intelligent, and how will we interact with them,

and what will be the influence Top of their list is sorting

out who is responsible They've also suggested that robots

have the legal status Parliament was turned into a sort

of low-budget edition of Robot Wars to get everyone ready

for a vote next week. For all the new technology

on display, there is plenty of old-fashioned human

politics as well. MEPs are split on a whole range

of issues, whether there should be a new EU robotics agency,

whether there should be a tax on robots for all the jobs

they replace, even whether robots If MEPs vote it through next

Thursday, the report will be handed to the commission,

who will decide whether to proceed with legislation

which could take years - meaning one country

is unlikely to be affected. A problem with communication. The

French Socialist candidate for President is suggesting we should

tax robots. That would put them in their place, wouldn't it? On a

serious note, we do need to think about what we are going to do to

support people that might be made unemployed through many of these

developments. In Finland they have brought in a universal income,

partly to help people whose jobs are being digitised. Tax robots? Try

sending a tax bill to the Terminator, see what you get. I will

leave that to you. That is it for now. Thanks for joining us. Goodbye.

When author Sir Terry Pratchett died,

When author Sir Terry Pratchett died,