27/02/2017 Daily Politics


27/02/2017

Jo Coburn is joined by MPs Liz Kendall and John Redwood to discuss Brexit immigration controls, government plans to restrict disability benefits and the proposed sugar tax.


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Transcript


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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The Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell says a "soft coup" is under way

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against Jeremy Corbyn by "elements in the Labour Party".

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We'll ask former leadership contender Liz Kendall

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The Government faces criticism for changes to disability benefits

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after the head of Theresa May's policy unit said the payments should

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only go to "really disabled people", not those "taking pills at home,

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The Home Secretary Amber Rudd all but confirms the Government

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will introduce curbs to freedom of movement from the EU

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once the Prime Minister triggers Article 50.

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And while the world of showbiz was glued to the Oscars last night,

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MPs in Westminster celebrated the British Kebab Awards -

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we'll hear from the MP who had the mouth-watering job

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And with us for the whole of the programme today the former

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Labour leadership contender Liz Kendall, and the

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Let's start with the government's plans for controlling

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The Home Secretary, Amber Rudd, was asked on ITV's Peston On Sunday

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programme about speculation she's looking at introducing

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A lot of different options that the Home Office is working on.

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It would be a mistake for me to go any further than that at the moment.

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There's going to be two years of negotiations and preparation.

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We can't give comments every week, but we're looking at all

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One thing I can confirm is we will be ending freedom

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Otherwise, we're looking at all sorts of different alternatives.

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John Redwood, is freedom of movement is going to end as we know it once

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Article 50 is triggered, how would that work in practise? What we'll be

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looking at Is a scheme. We discriminate with the rest of the

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world in a way we can't with the EU. We are not trying to block talent.

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That is not going to be a problem. The problem is, too many people

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coming in to pick up very low-paid jobs, keeping our wages down and

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making it more difficult for us to get people settled here into jobs.

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I'm sure there'll be a work permit system there. It won't be ready by

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March 16th, let's take that as the day after Article 50 is triggered.

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How will that work as a process being able to tell who arrived after

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that date? I think it would be a good idea to say to anyone thinking

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of coming to Britain from the EU after we've sent the Article 50

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letter that once we have left, there will be new rules applying and you

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could keep a list of the people if you wish to do so. We'll have to see

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how the Home Secretary wants to proceed. It will be difficult for

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police and Immigration Services how to know who to deport if people have

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arrived afterwards and are still able to get the jobs and in-work

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benefits perhaps at that point, if they don't know who has come in and

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when? They'll need to know who has come in obviously and there would

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have to be a system where you say to people, we have left the EU so apply

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for a work permit for the future. As we have heard, the Government is

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still working on this and in due course they'll announce policy.

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They've got a bit of time to put it in but it would be good to have it

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up and running for a time when we have left the EU. Are Labour in

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favour of a move that stops British workers being undercut? I don't want

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to see British workers undercut. What I think is interesting is some

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of the proposals being put forward by backbench Labour MPs like Liam

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Byrne. He's looked at how you might extend the points-based system for

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people outside the EU to people inside the EU. He published a paper

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last week and that called for the independent migration advisory

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committee to set quotas for low-skilled jobs sector by sector,

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backed up by a transformation of skills and training for British

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workers, for example through the apprenticeship levy to make sure

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they can get jobs. But crucially, it also called for freedom of movement

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to remain for scientists and students because that's vital if we

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want to build the knowledge economy of the future and for the Government

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to do far, far more on helping refugees, particularly child

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refugees. So there are a number of proposals around at the moment and I

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think Liam's proseles are ones that are worth looking at -- proposals.

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Do you back John Redwood's view? I don't think John is clear what the

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Government is going to propose, neither is Amber Rudd. She implied

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the kerbs would start immediately. Are you broadly in favour of that?

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Freedom of movement is going to change when we... End she said? A

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system which keeps the high skills we need to Go grow the economy in

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the future which is also fair and enforceable. There are proposals out

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there at the moment which, building on Labour's points-based system, is

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one option that should be looked at. Do you think John Redwood there

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needs to be a database of some kind so that we know where all the

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foreign nationals from the EU are coming in from and when they

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arrived? Well, you may need to do that or it may be that you just say

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after the date that we have left the EU, people who're not British

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citizens will need a work permit whether they come from the EU or not

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and you could ask the employers to check whether they have one.

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Ministers have been clear on the record, we have made clear we want

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to keep ourselves open to tall enand people coming in with well-paid jobs

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and big businesses. That is not the issue. The issue is the sheer

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numbers and weight of the numbers coming in to take low-paid jobs. How

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do you think immigration will fall after we trigger Article 50 from the

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EU? No idea. It's fallen a little bit in the run-up to it. They said

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it was a statistically unimportant... Unrelated to Brexit

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and Article 50, no evidence that it's anything to do with that. I've

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no idea and I'm reluctant to forecast a firm number. I can

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understand that on the basis of the tens of thousands... If it's fallen

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before we leave the EU, that is welcome. But if we have a workberg

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mitt style system, the numbers will fall. If there are limits to in-work

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benefits which of course the Government would be able to do once

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we leave Brexit, what impact do you think that will have on the numbers

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of EU nationals coming here, will it deter people? I think a lot of

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people will still want to come and live and work in this country

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because we are an amazing country with great opportunities. I think

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the Government's promises of reducing immigration to the tens of

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thousands, people just don't believe It because it hasn't worked. We need

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to get a fair balance between the economy and what is happening in the

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country. David Davis said he thought it would be years. Didn't think

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levels of immigration would go down in the short-term. He said it

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wouldn't happen for a long while. People will rightly feel that the

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promises aren't being delivered as quickly as hoped. Many people will

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want to see levels of net migration or immigration come down. If it does

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deter tens of thousands of EU nationals coming here when we look

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at the numbers in the NHS in the care industry and retail, that will

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have a detrimental effect on the sectors, won't it? We have just

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agreed that we don't want to put people off who have qualifications.

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So you are going to make allowances for those? We'd make special

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arrangements for people with qualifications and who're coming in

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for high value-added jobs. Seasonal workers for agriculture may be a

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case for that. It's construction though, there's services,

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hospitality, and I think this is the problem here, is that many companies

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fear they are going to face this cliff edge, they are not going to

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have the workers they need. Their businesses will suffer. At the same

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time, we are seeing the Government cut things like the NHS bursary

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scheme which is so important to training British young people to get

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the jobs they need in the future. The devil really is in the detail

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here. And will British workers do the jobs that are left vacant? Yes,

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I think they will and there has to be a reduction after we left the EU

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and there'll be a work permit or similar system to make sure there is

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a reduction. But of course it needs to be flexible, where there is real

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need, and we can not supply the labour internally. We need to put

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the wages up in some cases though because people aren't doing it

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because the wages aren't very good and we need to train and educate

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people to a better stand so they can do the jobs. So you would call for

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higher wages for those sectors? That is the way to get staff if you are

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short of staff isn't it. Yes. But they have to be earned, so you need

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a more productive workforce and may need more technology and investment

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behind that workforce. A lot of big companies are generating huge

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amounts of cash at the moment, maybe they ought to think about investment

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in training and standards for their staff where they are not doing

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enough and putting enough machine and computer behind them. All right.

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Ukip donor Aaron Banks has told the party's leader Paul Nuttall

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he wants to be party chairman to "sort out" the party

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Today's question is, in his interview with

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the Sunday Express what did Mr Banks say the party cannot

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Or D - a poorly organised party in a brewery?

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At the end of the show, Liz or John will give

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The Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell has claimed that a soft coup has

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been launched against Jeremy Corbyn by elements in the Labour Party.

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In an article he wrote for the Labour Briefing website

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before the Copeland by-election, but only published on-line last

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night, Mr McDonnell says the plotters are distorting

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the media coverage and using an exceptionally well-resourced dark

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arts operation to destroy Jeremy Corbyn and all

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His comments come after a weekend of public argument at the top

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of Labour over how to respond to the by-election

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Deputy Leader Tom Watson told the Scottish Labour Party conference

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now is not the time for a leadership election, that issue

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But he added that those at the top of the Labour Party "need

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to have a long hard look at ourselves at what's not working.

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The former acting Labour leader Harriet Harman told last night's

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Westminster Hour that the thing about being leader is,

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the buck stops with you Shadow Attorney-General Shami Chakrabati

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Shadow Attorney-General Shami Chakrabati

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I think sometimes we haven't had the fairest or most balanced

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Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has asked for more time

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to develop his policies, telling the Guardian newspaper that

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policymaking is longer and slightly more cumbersome than calling

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in a few experts into my office to tell me what the policies should be.

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And speaking at Scottish Labour's spring conference in Perth

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yesterday, Mr Corbyn said it's not the time throw in the towel.

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We haven't done enough yet to rebuild trust with the people

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who have been ripped off and sold out for decades and don't always

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But now is not the time to retreat, to run away or to give up.

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We've been joined by the shadow international trade

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Welcome to the Daily Politics. Is there a soft coup under way against

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Jeremy Corbyn, as John McDonnell alleges? Not as far as I'm aware,

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Jo. So why has he said it? I think this was frustration. You will

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recall that there were the interventions by, you know, the

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Labour grandees just before the by-elections. I think he... Talking

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about Tony Blair and Peter Mandelson? John obviously got on the

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late-night typewriter, as it used to be, and out of frustration penned

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this. It came out at that stage, I think everybody in the Parliamentary

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Labour Party that I know from Liz right the way through to Jeremy is

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saying, look, let's get together, let's show unity, but more

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important, let's go out and talk to the public. Right. Let's listen to

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them and talk to them. But you say he didn't really mean it and that

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might have been credible if he'd written a tweet in frustration, as

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you say. He has penned a fairly lengthy and extremely detailed

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article which he would have had to have thought long and hard about, so

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I ask you again, why does he say there is a soft coup under way

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against Jeremy Corbyn? Look, I think he was very frustrated, I think he

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has retracted it since then, saying this was something that was borne

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out of frustration, that it was because... . So it's not true that

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he believes there is a soft coup, he isn't saying it's been perpetrated

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by an alliance between elements in the Labour Party and the Murdoch

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media empire, both intent on destroying Jeremy Corbyn and all

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that he stands for. He retracts that, does he? Well, look, I haven't

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had the distinct pleasure of reading the Labour Briefing, I'm not a

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normal reader of it and I haven't read the article, but I think this

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was written for a section within the Labour Party and clearly it was

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written out of frustration that John felt. He has retracted it, he's said

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look, it was wrong to put that out and he wants now to focus on what I

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think all of us in the PLP ought to be focussing on, and that is uniting

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the Parliamentary Labour Party and listening to the country so we can

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better do our job of opposing the Government. Do you think it was

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responsible for John McDone to pen this article when he did and talk

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about elements in the Labour Party? Coup perpetrators at this time round

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pursuing a covert strategy? This is the first I've heard of it

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and I've no idea what he's talking about. Nobody should be fighting

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phantoms. I think that there is a desperate yearning in the country

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for a strong and effective opposition. Absolutely. People are

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crying out for a Labour Party that they can trust on the economy and

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who has got a clear plan and alternative on jobs, wages and

:15:53.:15:55.

public services. Are Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonell providing that?

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That's what they need to do now. We all know the difficult situation

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we're in. We need a clear strategy to change where we are going forward

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because people do want to see a Labour Party that they can trust,

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who shares their values and who they believe can set out a positive and

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unpatriotic vision for Britain's future. How helpful is it, then, to

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have these words printed by the Shadow Chancellor post the Copeland

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and Stoke by-election, Copland which Labour lost after 80 years, where he

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says the coup is not being waged upfront in public but strictly

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behind-the-scenes? Having learnt the lesson of the last coup attempt at a

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direct attack on Jeremy Goggin and his policy will ensue a backlash...

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How helpful is that? He was the it is helpful but Casey has retracted

:16:52.:16:54.

it. Is it helpful as Shadow Chancellor to make these sort of

:16:55.:16:59.

accusations against people in his own party? What I really want to see

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our Shadow Chancellor doing with a budget coming up next week is

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showing our alternative, how we are going to spread jobs and growth at

:17:09.:17:11.

every part of the country, how we are going to make sure the half of

:17:12.:17:14.

households who face a decade of stagnating wages will be able to get

:17:15.:17:18.

on in life, how we are going to transform our NHS and fight the Tory

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cuts to school funding. That is what John, the shadow economy team and

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every member of the PLP should be laser focused on over the coming

:17:27.:17:31.

days. You are not part of a soft coup? S no. Do you know anyone who

:17:32.:17:38.

is? Identity top is he making this up? I don't note it up is he deluded

:17:39.:17:44.

to make up his accusations in such detail? You are trying to get me to

:17:45.:17:50.

say something and I'm not going to. We have got to meet people's

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desperate desire. What effect will this have on the Parliamentary

:17:56.:17:58.

Labour Party when he talks about elements within Labour? Was he

:17:59.:18:01.

talking about Clive Lewis, who has had to deny that there were websites

:18:02.:18:06.

put up talking about his leadership bid very shortly after he joined the

:18:07.:18:10.

Shadow Cabinet? I don't think so. I think is talking about people who

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are no longer part of the Parliamentary Labour Party. I think

:18:15.:18:16.

he was frustrated that the Labour grandees from yesteryear had come

:18:17.:18:22.

out publicly before the by-election in a way which, actually, not only

:18:23.:18:26.

to John but too many members of the PLP thought was unhelpful to have

:18:27.:18:29.

done that immediately before Stoke and Copeland and I think what you've

:18:30.:18:34.

got to understand is that John McDonell is somebody who has history

:18:35.:18:40.

with those people and he probably conceived of it and perceived it as

:18:41.:18:43.

an aggressive act to which he wanted to respond. More importantly, he now

:18:44.:18:52.

thinks it is a mistake. Chitty come out in praise of the PLP to my? He

:18:53.:18:55.

has already publicly said he retracted. I think Liz is absolutely

:18:56.:19:01.

right. We as the Parliamentary Labour Party need to focus not on

:19:02.:19:05.

ourselves any more. We are double talking about ourselves. We want to

:19:06.:19:09.

focus on the things that mattered to the public. Let's talk about those

:19:10.:19:12.

because is Copeland a freak result as far as you're concerned? Many of

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the Labour leadership team seem to imply that. Or has the party under

:19:18.:19:23.

Jeremy Corbyn become more repugnant than a Tory government closing a

:19:24.:19:28.

local maternity centre, as the head of Progress? I don't think it is a

:19:29.:19:32.

freak. I hope it is a freak result but I don't think it is in anyway

:19:33.:19:38.

something that has simply just happened by chance. This a long-term

:19:39.:19:47.

process of those seats, that part of England, where we've seen more

:19:48.:19:49.

automation of jobs, more insecurity in jobs, more zero hours contracts.

:19:50.:19:56.

But this is a Labour heartland, as you know. Is this a failure of the

:19:57.:20:00.

party, just not taking responsibility of its own failures?

:20:01.:20:04.

There have been seven years of a Conservative and Coalition

:20:05.:20:07.

government and austerity measures throughout, yet how do you explain

:20:08.:20:13.

that Labour is still trailing 14 to 18 points in the polls? Gob of you

:20:14.:20:16.

quite rightly say this is seven years of Conservative

:20:17.:20:21.

administration. The Conservative administration has seen those wages

:20:22.:20:25.

for those people stagnate. And they are angry. But in areas like

:20:26.:20:31.

Copeland and the North, Labour is often seen as the party of

:20:32.:20:34.

administration, the party of government, because it has been an

:20:35.:20:37.

local government for so long and they have had a Labour MP for so

:20:38.:20:42.

long. Many seats like that are associating the pain that they are

:20:43.:20:45.

feeling, the insecurity that they are feeling, with the party. They

:20:46.:20:52.

blame Labour and not the Government? Exactly. What we need to be doing is

:20:53.:20:56.

coming up with not just saying it is all the government's fault, we need

:20:57.:21:00.

to be coming up with the answer is that they believe are credible.

:21:01.:21:04.

Clearly they don't believe you will come up with the answers or they

:21:05.:21:07.

would be voting for you. Jeremy Corbyn says you need more time to

:21:08.:21:10.

develop policies. Is he developing the right sort of policies? Are they

:21:11.:21:15.

going the right direction? Sometimes I think we in the Labour Party love

:21:16.:21:19.

lots of policy detailed. Don't get me wrong, unless you've got

:21:20.:21:23.

something clear, simple and credible, people won't back you but

:21:24.:21:26.

I think it is more about whether people believe we stand for them,

:21:27.:21:31.

whether we share their values about work, responsibility, about

:21:32.:21:37.

fairness, about paying in before you get out, about decent support, great

:21:38.:21:40.

schools and how we are going to run the economy in a way that is fair

:21:41.:21:44.

and makes sure everybody sees their benefits of growth. And Labour is

:21:45.:21:51.

not doing that? From my conversations with people, they

:21:52.:21:53.

don't believe we are a strong and effective opposition and they are

:21:54.:21:56.

not convinced they can trust us on the economy and on security. Do you

:21:57.:22:00.

think Jeremy Corbyn should be given more time to do that? Do you think

:22:01.:22:04.

it will come to a state of play where people will trust Labour on

:22:05.:22:08.

those issues? I think he will be given more time and the

:22:09.:22:11.

responsibility on all of us is... What's happening at the moment isn't

:22:12.:22:16.

working. We are not doing anywhere near well enough in the polls on the

:22:17.:22:19.

by-election results were catastrophic. Something has to

:22:20.:22:23.

change and I think that is showing people, what is Labour for? How will

:22:24.:22:28.

we back people's aspirations for themselves and their families and

:22:29.:22:32.

deliver great jobs and decent public services? Unless they trust us on

:22:33.:22:35.

that and believe we are a proud unpatriotic party that stands up for

:22:36.:22:40.

Britain at home and abroad, they would support us. -- proud and

:22:41.:22:45.

patriotically atop do you agree with Harriet Harman, who said the buck

:22:46.:22:49.

stops with Jeremy Corbyn was I think the buck stops with all of us who

:22:50.:22:54.

are in leadership positions in the PLP. No Labour MP should think, it

:22:55.:22:57.

is the leadership of the Shadow Cabinet. We are, all of us, the

:22:58.:23:03.

leaders of the Labour movement, in particular the leaders in our own

:23:04.:23:07.

constituencies and areas. We have to show the leadership and unless we

:23:08.:23:11.

all do that, I don't think there is any point in blaming one or two

:23:12.:23:17.

individuals at the top. It is our responsibility. Unity is strength is

:23:18.:23:22.

a mantra which has to cut both ways. Thank you.

:23:23.:23:24.

The Government is facing criticism today from all quarters over plans

:23:25.:23:27.

announced last week to make changes to who qualifies for a benefit

:23:28.:23:30.

Personal Independence Payments, or PIPs, are weekly payments that go

:23:31.:23:33.

to people with a disability or a long-term health condition.

:23:34.:23:38.

The Government is rolling out PIPs to replace a former payment known

:23:39.:23:41.

The Government was required to widen the eligibility

:23:42.:23:48.

criteria around PIPs, to include more people

:23:49.:23:49.

with psychological problems, after two tribunal rulings.

:23:50.:23:54.

But ministers say that doing so would cost the taxpayer

:23:55.:23:56.

So instead they're legislating to change the rules around PIPs.

:23:57.:24:04.

Ministers say that there will still be a strong safety

:24:05.:24:07.

net for disabled people after the changes.

:24:08.:24:11.

George Freeman, the Conservative MP and head of Theresa May's policy

:24:12.:24:13.

unit, got into hot water on this issue yesterday.

:24:14.:24:17.

In a BBC interview he said that money should go

:24:18.:24:19.

to "really disabled people", not those "taking pills at home,

:24:20.:24:22.

Those comments were condemned by the Labour Party.

:24:23.:24:29.

John McDonnell said they were "an insult

:24:30.:24:32.

And the shadow minister Louise Haigh accused the Conservatives

:24:33.:24:37.

of being "in the gutter trying to shame those in desperate need".

:24:38.:24:43.

But George Freeman hit back at those critics.

:24:44.:24:46.

He said he had suffered from mental health problems in the past

:24:47.:24:49.

and didn't "need any lectures on the damage anxiety does".

:24:50.:24:54.

And he's also said this morning that he "regrets" it if his comments

:24:55.:24:57.

Let's get the latest on this now from our assistant political

:24:58.:25:03.

editor Norman Smith, who joins us from Central Lobby.

:25:04.:25:07.

So, an apology of sorts from George Freeman because of all the flak that

:25:08.:25:13.

he and the Government have received over his comments. Yeah, he says he

:25:14.:25:19.

hugely regrets any offence caused. In a way, Mr Freeman, it seems to

:25:20.:25:23.

me, almost by the by, and the government are in an almighty mess

:25:24.:25:27.

regardless of his comments in part because disability benefits is one

:25:28.:25:31.

of those issues where the Government has repeatedly come a cropper. You

:25:32.:25:35.

think most recently of George Osborne's budget when he had to

:25:36.:25:39.

backtrack on his plans for cutting PIPs and I think that began the

:25:40.:25:42.

unravelling of the Cameron - Osborne government. They are in trouble

:25:43.:25:47.

because of the way they have done this. They announced this on the day

:25:48.:25:51.

of the Copeland and Stoke by-election. Whether by design or

:25:52.:25:53.

default, that looks like they were trying to sneak it out when all of

:25:54.:25:58.

us were looking elsewhere. And they're in trouble, out, because of

:25:59.:26:03.

the way they've tried to do this, by amending regulations. What that

:26:04.:26:07.

means is they are acutely vulnerable to the House of Lords putting down a

:26:08.:26:11.

fatal motion and what that means is if the House of Lords voted against

:26:12.:26:15.

these changes, they're dead, it is over, which would mean the

:26:16.:26:17.

Government would have to introduce primary legislation to carry through

:26:18.:26:22.

these changes and I was speaking to one former Cabinet minister who said

:26:23.:26:26.

to me, there is no way of this parliament approving any legislation

:26:27.:26:30.

on benefits. So the stakes really are hugely high for the Government.

:26:31.:26:35.

There has been criticism from all quarters, including Tory MPs. Will

:26:36.:26:39.

that put enough pressure on perhaps them deciding to widen the

:26:40.:26:41.

eligibility in the way that they've been told to do by the tribunal? I

:26:42.:26:46.

think this is a moving picture in the sense that as of now, they're

:26:47.:26:50.

saying this costs far too much money, ?3.7 billion, which is an

:26:51.:26:57.

upward ratchet, if you are going to give PIPs to people suffering from

:26:58.:27:01.

dementia and other mental illnesses, it has gone to go up and up, and

:27:02.:27:06.

disability has been going up and up for decades so they don't want to do

:27:07.:27:11.

that. Then again, if you're going to lose anyway, and I think there is a

:27:12.:27:14.

real chance they will lose in the Lords, in part because peers, if

:27:15.:27:17.

they have to cave in over Brexit, will want to show they're still

:27:18.:27:20.

tough and independent and willing to stand up to the Government, they

:27:21.:27:25.

choose to put down a marker on this. If you are going to lose anyway,

:27:26.:27:32.

better to concede in the budget and lose in the Lords and have to pay up

:27:33.:27:37.

the cash anyway. Should the Government widely eligibility, as

:27:38.:27:39.

they've been instructed to, by the tribunal rulings that they should,

:27:40.:27:43.

in the future, include people with mental illnesses? I'd want to see

:27:44.:27:48.

the detail and I think the Government accepts people with

:27:49.:27:51.

mental illnesses often have a very serious condition and we need to

:27:52.:27:55.

help them. They haven't accepted it in terms of letting them have money

:27:56.:28:00.

through PIPs. I think they have. The issue is which group of

:28:01.:28:02.

circumstances qualified. I don't think they're saying that we don't

:28:03.:28:07.

want anybody with mental health illnesses qualifying. One of the

:28:08.:28:10.

reforms announced was to have people with mental conditions equally

:28:11.:28:14.

eligible to those with physical conditions. I've got an assurance

:28:15.:28:17.

from ministers that nobody who has received a PIPs payment from the DWP

:28:18.:28:25.

so far will lose it or have it cut. These are about future payments. It

:28:26.:28:29.

is important to tell your audience out there that nobody who has

:28:30.:28:32.

approved payment is going to get it cut and I certainly wouldn't be

:28:33.:28:36.

voting for cutting existing payments. The issue is whether we

:28:37.:28:40.

widen the criteria, compared with those which the government thought

:28:41.:28:43.

it had put in. I would like to see the details and I'm sure my

:28:44.:28:47.

colleagues were. But they are spending 50 billion a year and we

:28:48.:28:50.

need to be generous to those with serious disability, weather and

:28:51.:28:52.

mental or physical condition, and let's see what they come up with by

:28:53.:28:56.

way of a specific proposition. They just feel it is going to wide.

:28:57.:29:01.

Wasn't acceptable for George Freeman to say it shouldn't go to people

:29:02.:29:04.

taking pills that time who suffer from anxiety? As I understand it,

:29:05.:29:08.

George has said he didn't mean any harm by that. He didn't mean any

:29:09.:29:12.

harm but he didn't retract what he said. You must ask him. They were

:29:13.:29:18.

not my words. But I'm asking you for your reaction to those words. Do you

:29:19.:29:21.

think that is acceptable by someone who was the head of policy unit at

:29:22.:29:26.

Number Ten to say money should go to really disabled people, not those

:29:27.:29:29.

taking pills that I'm? They are not my words and I don't wish to repeat

:29:30.:29:33.

it and he must explain that. Liz Campbell, you are shaking your head.

:29:34.:29:38.

I mean, the polite way to put it is that George Freeman's comments were

:29:39.:29:43.

ill-advised and ill informed. I have looked at the detail of this and the

:29:44.:29:49.

people who the tribunal are saying should get a PIP are people with

:29:50.:29:53.

dementia, schizophrenia, epilepsy, learning disabilities. And instead

:29:54.:30:00.

of ignoring the very serious criticisms of PIP that the tribunal

:30:01.:30:04.

is have made, the Government should be listening. But the whole PIP

:30:05.:30:08.

system is a mess. I have had a constituent who was diagnosed with

:30:09.:30:12.

terminal cancer. He had to wait eight months before he got anything.

:30:13.:30:16.

He was told at that stage he would not get extra help for daily living,

:30:17.:30:23.

then he had a stroke. As circumstances change, they

:30:24.:30:25.

reassessed and got rid of his enhanced mobility component. I have

:30:26.:30:29.

been fighting this for a year. That was presumably an error. This

:30:30.:30:37.

happens time and time again. But this is about eligibility. There are

:30:38.:30:40.

mistakes that me but let's be clear, this is about the criteria that will

:30:41.:30:45.

be used for future claimants. At the moment, nobody will lose PIP money,

:30:46.:30:50.

as it stands. This is about the Government being asked to widen the

:30:51.:30:53.

eligibility rules to include people with the sorts of conditions you're

:30:54.:30:58.

talking about, rightly or wrongly. Do you think they should widen it?

:30:59.:31:01.

Nell to pen this article when he did and talk about elements in the

:31:02.:31:05.

Labour Party? Coup perpetrators at this time round pursuing a covert

:31:06.:31:07.

strategy? Yes, I do. But my point is wider, the PIP system isn't working,

:31:08.:31:10.

the Government needs to have a fundamental review of that as well

:31:11.:31:12.

as accept the tribunal courts rulings about extending eligibility.

:31:13.:31:16.

You would extend the money then by ?3.7? Yes. Where would you find the

:31:17.:31:20.

money? The Government has a huge budget that it can look at. There

:31:21.:31:23.

are all sorts of different decisions they could make, I think this is

:31:24.:31:28.

just and fair and right and they should do it. The Tory MP has said

:31:29.:31:33.

she'd find the money come what may. Isn't there a level of hypocrisy

:31:34.:31:38.

John Redwood when the Government and Theresa May herself say there should

:31:39.:31:43.

be parity of esteem between physical and mental illnesses and then the

:31:44.:31:48.

Government sneaks out, which is how it will appear, to the public and to

:31:49.:31:51.

the Houses of Parliament on the day after the by-election, the fact that

:31:52.:31:54.

they are going to change the rules so they don't have to widen the

:31:55.:31:57.

eligibility? I think the Government will say that they are trying to

:31:58.:32:01.

keep the rules as they intended them to be and as they thought they were

:32:02.:32:05.

being applied. There is now the issue posed by the court - should we

:32:06.:32:10.

be more generous and I'm open-minded, I would want to see how

:32:11.:32:14.

generous, what it would cost and what cases it would cover.

:32:15.:32:16.

Individual cases may have been wrongly judged and we all feel very

:32:17.:32:20.

sad about that and that's about competence, it's not about the

:32:21.:32:23.

rules, and then there's this separate issue about the rules. I

:32:24.:32:26.

didn't come into politics to be unkind to the disabled and I'll want

:32:27.:32:30.

to be persuaded by the Government that this change... Does the

:32:31.:32:34.

Government look like it's being unkind with the changes? That's

:32:35.:32:37.

where I would want the see the detail but having listened to them

:32:38.:32:42.

today before doing this programme, that is not their intention. Their

:32:43.:32:46.

intention is to have more generous benefits for those who're disabled

:32:47.:32:51.

and the PIP system now is better than the previous system was. Liz

:32:52.:32:57.

Kendal, you have said you would want to find the extra money. Who would

:32:58.:33:07.

do that? Government could make huge numbers of different decisions...

:33:08.:33:10.

Sure but there would be a choice here? May I say the Government's

:33:11.:33:16.

taken a choice to cut inheritance tax for the very wealthy. What is at

:33:17.:33:21.

the heart of the tribunal's decision which the Government hasn't grasped

:33:22.:33:28.

is that physical and mental disabilities are not two separate

:33:29.:33:32.

things, you need to look at the two together. Unless the Government

:33:33.:33:38.

grasps that, it's not going to get the support that people rightly

:33:39.:33:43.

need. As you understand it, John Redwood, what is PIP for, what is

:33:44.:33:48.

the allowance actually supposed to do for people who're disabled? Well,

:33:49.:33:52.

it's to pay for the extra costs that the disability creates that they can

:33:53.:33:55.

have a more normal life like the rest of us but they need extra

:33:56.:34:00.

support. Daily living and mobility and the tribunal made decisions

:34:01.:34:04.

about both the issues. For people with schizophrenia and severe

:34:05.:34:10.

depression. What will the money do? Give them the enhanced mobility

:34:11.:34:14.

component which may include support for somebody to help them go out and

:34:15.:34:19.

standard daily living, people need to medicate at home or monitor their

:34:20.:34:26.

health at home say for instance with diabetes, people need support with

:34:27.:34:28.

that. It's simple if you understand the reality of what it's like having

:34:29.:34:32.

a physical, mental or learning disability. You need extra support

:34:33.:34:35.

to live with that condition at home and to get out and about. That's

:34:36.:34:40.

what the court's said. Do you think this is going to be difficult to

:34:41.:34:44.

actually introduce because of what Norman Smith said, that if they are

:34:45.:34:48.

going to introduce change rather than primary legislation, it could

:34:49.:34:50.

be guillotined in the Lord's? I think they've got to have a package

:34:51.:34:54.

which enough people think is fair and reasonable and these are

:34:55.:34:58.

difficult judgments. It isn't you've got one party that doesn't want to

:34:59.:35:02.

pay money to the disabled and others do. Liz Kendall would clearly pay

:35:03.:35:08.

that money? That's my view. We all agree we want to be sensibly

:35:09.:35:12.

generous to disabled people who have serious problems and compensate them

:35:13.:35:16.

to the extent that money can. But there Haas to be a limit, you have

:35:17.:35:20.

to be able to say, you qualify for the lower rate, so we are arguing

:35:21.:35:24.

about the marginal cases at the edges of the current PIP

:35:25.:35:28.

allocations. I'm sure a lot of fair minded people in the Lords and

:35:29.:35:31.

Commons will want to look at what the Government has to say and say

:35:32.:35:35.

yes, that's a sensible view or it's too tough and should be looser.

:35:36.:35:38.

The imposition of a sugar tax on some soft drinks will move

:35:39.:35:40.

a little closer in next week's budget, when the Treasury

:35:41.:35:43.

announces how much the rate of the levy will be.

:35:44.:35:45.

Celebrities like Jamie Oliver will be happy -

:35:46.:35:47.

they've been campaigning for action against childhood obesity such

:35:48.:35:49.

But for Dia Chakravarti of the TaxPayers' Alliance,

:35:50.:35:55.

the proposals are regressive and don't actually make any sense.

:35:56.:35:57.

In just over a week's time, the Chancellor,

:35:58.:36:14.

in his budget statement, will tell us exactly how much

:36:15.:36:17.

tax he will be slapping onto some sugary drinks.

:36:18.:36:21.

A great win for the nanny state champions but the rest of us?

:36:22.:36:24.

For a start, this tax will hit the poorest families hardest.

:36:25.:36:30.

The so-called consumption taxes, like this one and ones on,

:36:31.:36:34.

say, tobacco or alcohol, hit poorer families harder

:36:35.:36:37.

because they pay a greater portion of their income in these taxes.

:36:38.:36:42.

Hardly a recipe to help hard-pressed families.

:36:43.:36:50.

What makes the plans even worse is that evidence suggests

:36:51.:36:53.

So, while the consumption of drinks like these might go down,

:36:54.:37:00.

these drinks are exempt from the scheme even though

:37:01.:37:03.

People will just get their sugar fix from somewhere else.

:37:04.:37:10.

There's plenty of evidence from abroad that it doesn't work.

:37:11.:37:14.

They introduced a tax on sugary drinks in Mexico

:37:15.:37:18.

not that long ago and, yes, the consumption of these drinks

:37:19.:37:22.

did go down and the number of calories also went down -

:37:23.:37:25.

People simply got their calories another way.

:37:26.:37:30.

You can potentially tax people away from cigarettes

:37:31.:37:34.

because the alternatives to them, like e-cigarettes or nicotine

:37:35.:37:36.

patches, are actually healthier than tobacco,

:37:37.:37:39.

but that's not necessarily the case for the alternatives

:37:40.:37:42.

A study in America found that a similar tax resulted in a rise

:37:43.:37:49.

in the sales of beer - hardly the alternative we're after.

:37:50.:37:52.

And even if it did work, is it really necessary?

:37:53.:37:55.

There is plenty of evidence to suggest that obesity has actually

:37:56.:38:01.

peaked and it is public information campaigns that actually are more

:38:02.:38:05.

effective in bringing about a real change in people's lifestyles.

:38:06.:38:09.

This is just an ill-considered way for the Treasury

:38:10.:38:13.

to raise some money, but hurting the poorest

:38:14.:38:15.

So, while our politicians, in their smugness, can pick up one

:38:16.:38:21.

of these sugary drinks on their way to more nannying, tax-free,

:38:22.:38:24.

anyone buying these sugary drinks will be penalised.

:38:25.:38:28.

A lot of drinks manufacturers have already lowered the amount of sugar

:38:29.:38:43.

in their drinks to avoid higher taxes so in effect the levy has

:38:44.:38:46.

worked. This has been happening for a long time so by DEFRA's own

:38:47.:38:52.

figures, sugar consumption peaked around the 70s and since then we

:38:53.:38:59.

consume about 20% less sugar, since 1992, we consume 22% less sugar so

:39:00.:39:02.

that's been happening for quite some time. We can't say it's happening

:39:03.:39:08.

because of this. Is it necessary to have a sugar tax? Yes, I would like

:39:09.:39:15.

to see stronger restrictions to advertising, a public health

:39:16.:39:17.

advertising campaign and more investment in things like child

:39:18.:39:21.

support. Look, the reason we have to do this is obesity related illnesses

:39:22.:39:27.

are costing the NHS ?6 billion a year and obesity is a huge problem.

:39:28.:39:31.

This isn't a silver bullet but I think as part of a measure of things

:39:32.:39:36.

it could make a real difference in bringing obesity levels down. As the

:39:37.:39:40.

Taxpayers' Alliance, surely you would be happy at any move reducing

:39:41.:39:45.

costs for the NHS and obesity Kay cording to public health England

:39:46.:39:50.

costs the Government billions? If it worked there would be a good

:39:51.:39:53.

argument for it. What is your evidence that it doesn't work?

:39:54.:39:57.

People who are bringing this in think it wouldn't work. In the words

:39:58.:40:02.

of one of the most vocal advocates of it, it's just a symbolic slap on

:40:03.:40:07.

people's lifestyle. We know it's not going to work because the

:40:08.:40:13.

Government's already spent the ?520 million it wishes to raise from it

:40:14.:40:16.

because we know that people's lifestyle doesn't change that way.

:40:17.:40:19.

The alternatives here are not necessarily healthier, as is the

:40:20.:40:23.

case with say alcohol for example and tobacco. The alternatives may

:40:24.:40:26.

well be healthier, that's not necessarily the kiss here. Although

:40:27.:40:30.

we have seen a massive drop in the number of people who smoke. If you

:40:31.:40:34.

look at the figures in Mexico which you cited, there is a 5.5% drop in

:40:35.:40:40.

the first year, 9.7% drop in the second year and actually, from what

:40:41.:40:44.

I've read, the health impact is not yet known but that severe drop in

:40:45.:40:49.

consumption must be a good thing? It would, but again it doesn't work to

:40:50.:40:53.

the extent that we wish it to work. Another example would be the fat tax

:40:54.:40:58.

in Denmark which they spent about 200 million Kroner in bringing it

:40:59.:41:03.

in, it simply didn't work. 15 months later, they completely scrapped it.

:41:04.:41:08.

They found that people had gone into neighbouring countries. I don't

:41:09.:41:11.

think it's a silver bullet but it's part of what we have to do. People

:41:12.:41:16.

like your good severals are always against any good intervention by the

:41:17.:41:20.

state. My preference is always to limit sugar, fat and salt in food.

:41:21.:41:26.

If you want to sprinkle more shuck a ah on your Frosties, fine but what

:41:27.:41:32.

is the alternative? Public health campaigns which have worked. The

:41:33.:41:35.

money's been cut from quite a few public health campaign budgets. This

:41:36.:41:41.

is the point, if sugar consumption peaked in the 70s, we have been

:41:42.:41:49.

doing something right. Our sugar intakes are rampant. This is an

:41:50.:41:52.

important point here Jo, the politicians with the greatest

:41:53.:41:56.

respect to the both of you, get seduced by the idea of being seen to

:41:57.:42:01.

do something. Let's... John Redwood...

:42:02.:42:05.

ALL SPEAK AT ONCE. The evidence is though that the

:42:06.:42:10.

poorest families are going to get hit the hardest. Reseduced by the

:42:11.:42:15.

pressure lobby campaigns on this issue of putting a tax on sugary

:42:16.:42:20.

items like fizzy drinks? We have heard two very powerful advocates

:42:21.:42:23.

today and there's good in both and I think it's absolutely right, we have

:42:24.:42:26.

got a major obesity problem and diabetes problem and anything to

:42:27.:42:30.

highlight that will help to deal with it. Will it work? It's quite

:42:31.:42:34.

right that before the Government takes action, it's got to make sure

:42:35.:42:37.

there is evidence to say this will have the desired impact. What it's

:42:38.:42:42.

clearly doing is creating the public conversation. I think you agree with

:42:43.:42:46.

me that that's probably even more important to have the public

:42:47.:42:49.

conversation so people understand they're damaging their own health if

:42:50.:42:53.

they go to extremes. The evidence is stark, you got it from health

:42:54.:43:06.

professionals and also celebrities and Cancer Research saying what the

:43:07.:43:11.

numbers are of those who could avoid getting diabetes. Would you support

:43:12.:43:18.

this being broadened further to include other items with high levels

:43:19.:43:23.

of sugar? There is some impact. I respect expertise but there are an

:43:24.:43:27.

awful lot of the spot forecasts as we have seen with Treasury and Bank

:43:28.:43:31.

of England and IMF forecasts that are wrong and you have to be

:43:32.:43:34.

critical about what they do when trying to apply knowledge. This may

:43:35.:43:39.

be another case where it might be unlikely that they have the exact

:43:40.:43:46.

number right. Milk shakes, high sugar coffees and other drinks are

:43:47.:43:52.

exempt? That is a proob. One other big issue is how much sugar is in

:43:53.:43:57.

anything, a lot of it is hidden -- that is a problem. Unless you obsess

:43:58.:44:03.

about the nutritional information. I would like to see a simpler way of

:44:04.:44:10.

labelling food. You are talking about fruit juices as well. How many

:44:11.:44:13.

things are going to tax. Jamie Oliver said it was a symbolic slap.

:44:14.:44:17.

To people like Jamie Oliver, that bit of extra money paid in tax

:44:18.:44:21.

doesn't really count but it does to many poor families and that's the

:44:22.:44:24.

issue here, I can't believe the politicians aren't hearing this. Are

:44:25.:44:27.

you proud that it's a Conservative Government bringing this in? I'm

:44:28.:44:33.

proud that they are looking at the problem but I find in the

:44:34.:44:36.

supermarket I value the extra information but it makes it a

:44:37.:44:40.

long-winded task trying to buy things because it's not presented in

:44:41.:44:46.

a similar way on each packet and there are so many things that

:44:47.:44:50.

experts say are damaging to us, it's tempting to say I'm in a hurry, I'm

:44:51.:44:56.

going to just buy this. If the extra tax goes on something that's really

:44:57.:44:59.

important, I think that would make a massive difference. Sports for

:45:00.:45:03.

example. We have make sure the extra tax, the revenue is tied with

:45:04.:45:06.

getting kids active and moving again. It can't possibly do both,

:45:07.:45:11.

can't raise the revenue and have an impact. It could. Greater proportion

:45:12.:45:17.

of the poorest families money in tax, that's all it's going to do.

:45:18.:45:21.

Let's take a look at the main political events expected this week.

:45:22.:45:24.

This afternoon, members of the House of Lords

:45:25.:45:26.

continue their consideration of the Article 50 Bill,

:45:27.:45:28.

which paves the way for Theresa May to kick off Brexit negotiations.

:45:29.:45:31.

Votes on amendments are expected on Wednesday.

:45:32.:45:32.

This evening, former Conservative prime minister John Major

:45:33.:45:34.

makes his first public statement since the referendum

:45:35.:45:37.

last summer in a speech billed as being about "the realities that

:45:38.:45:40.

Britain and Europe face in the future".

:45:41.:45:43.

On Tuesday, the British Chambers of Commerce

:45:44.:45:45.

John McDonnell and George Osborne will be there.

:45:46.:45:51.

Wednesday, as ever, brings Prime Minister's Questions.

:45:52.:45:53.

Watch it live here on the Daily Politics.

:45:54.:45:57.

Thursday is polling day in Northern Ireland

:45:58.:45:59.

after a scandal brought down the last government there.

:46:00.:46:02.

And on Friday, we turn to Scotland, where the Scottish Conservatives

:46:03.:46:06.

And to talk about all that, we're joined

:46:07.:46:10.

by Kate Devlin from the Herald and Harry Cole from the Sun.

:46:11.:46:16.

Welcome to both of you. Sorry about your umbrellas and being outside.

:46:17.:46:24.

Hope it's not freezing! Harry Cole, what about the Lords and the

:46:25.:46:28.

amendments that they are going to be looking at? Do you think those are

:46:29.:46:31.

going to pass in terms of Article 50 changes? I expect they probably

:46:32.:46:38.

will. The Labour and Lib Dem peers, with the help of people like Lord

:46:39.:46:41.

Heseltine, are increasingly confident that they have the numbers

:46:42.:46:46.

to attach a fuel amendments back and send the bill back to the Commons

:46:47.:46:51.

but the Home Secretary let the cat out of the bag and confirmed

:46:52.:46:54.

yesterday live on TV, it is not going to make the slightest bit of

:46:55.:46:57.

difference and it is very unlikely the Prime Minister will accept these

:46:58.:47:01.

amendments. I don't think there's a huge appetite for an extended ping

:47:02.:47:04.

pong, as they call it, so I think we will see the Lords their point, add

:47:05.:47:09.

an amendment, whether the government accepted or not is up to the

:47:10.:47:12.

government, but I don't think it will drag on in quite the epic

:47:13.:47:17.

battle song would like to see to it there is more Brexit news. Are we

:47:18.:47:27.

likely to see a Tony Blair style intervention from John Major or

:47:28.:47:30.

something less controversial? I think probably a bit more supported

:47:31.:47:35.

it up they are speaking to different audiences. Tony Blair was speaking

:47:36.:47:39.

to primarily Labour and Lib Dem voters who did want Brexit and voted

:47:40.:47:44.

against it it up John Major argued very, very strongly against Brexit

:47:45.:47:46.

but he knows as a former Conservative Prime Minister, he will

:47:47.:47:51.

be speaking mainly to Tory voters who overwhelmingly backed leaving

:47:52.:47:54.

the European Union. It will be a slightly more subtle argument trying

:47:55.:47:59.

to set a bit of a pass for the kind of Brexit that the pro-European

:48:00.:48:06.

Conservatives want to see. Do you think, or how much, do you think it

:48:07.:48:10.

is going to anger Brexiteers in the Conservative Party? Brexiteers in

:48:11.:48:14.

the Conservative Party ten to get angry at the drop of a hat. We've

:48:15.:48:18.

had one Tory MP declare that Heseltine should be fired from his

:48:19.:48:21.

minor role advising the government on business strategy. Brexiteers are

:48:22.:48:26.

going to get angry regardless of how sensible their case is and that's

:48:27.:48:30.

been the case for many years and one person who knows how angry the Tory

:48:31.:48:34.

party get on Europe is John Major. Yes, he has a bit of experience in

:48:35.:48:39.

that regard! When a former Prime Minister speak... John Major really

:48:40.:48:43.

pixies moments and he will be heard with a dignity. -- picks his

:48:44.:48:50.

moments. Is he howling at the moon? I think he probably is. He said the

:48:51.:48:54.

case for a second referendum is very credible. I don't think that will

:48:55.:48:58.

happen. What do you think the atmosphere will be like at the

:48:59.:49:01.

Parliamentary Labour Party meeting tonight? The first after the

:49:02.:49:05.

by-elections? We are not expecting Jeremy Corbyn to be there and even

:49:06.:49:08.

if he was, it wouldn't be the kind of bloodbath I think you would

:49:09.:49:13.

expect. Lots of Labour MPs really now believe that what they have to

:49:14.:49:19.

do is kind of quietly oppose the leadership and not cause these big,

:49:20.:49:24.

massive rows between the PLP and Jeremy Corbyn that you've seen in

:49:25.:49:28.

recent months. One of them said to me today, when somebody is failing

:49:29.:49:32.

this badly you just let him get on with it. I can hear the rain coming

:49:33.:49:35.

down and you are probably drowning out their! Sorry about this. Harry

:49:36.:49:40.

Cole, what do you think it is going to be like tonight? Cake is right

:49:41.:49:43.

that everyone has been told not to mention leadership elections.

:49:44.:49:48.

Absolutely. They call it the Gareth strategy because one of Jeremy

:49:49.:49:53.

Corbyn's aids in a candid moment in a documentary, called Gareth, said

:49:54.:49:58.

that if any of his enemies want to fail, they should just keep quiet

:49:59.:50:02.

and let him do it himself. There are some die-hard Corbyn critics like

:50:03.:50:05.

John Woodcock who is in a neighbouring seat to Copeland, who

:50:06.:50:08.

is very angry and worried about his own future prospects but we have

:50:09.:50:13.

seen a concerted efforts to keep a lid on it. It is so the core

:50:14.:50:19.

blisters can't turn around and say, it is just the evil, right wing PLP

:50:20.:50:24.

unsettling Jeremy. It will show it is the incompetence of their own

:50:25.:50:28.

leadership. Today in another example, we've had Shadow Chancellor

:50:29.:50:31.

John McDonell who yesterday called for unity, saying everybody should

:50:32.:50:35.

get behind the leader, and then last night and article was published

:50:36.:50:39.

accusing Labour of being in cahoots with the media for a soft coup. I

:50:40.:50:43.

think the Parliamentary Labour Party should sit back and watch the chaos.

:50:44.:50:47.

We've heard from Barry Gardiner that he has retracted that article. That

:50:48.:50:55.

makes everything all right! Just to inform you. Many people including

:50:56.:51:00.

myself will have woken up to the sad news that Gerald Kaufmann has died

:51:01.:51:04.

aged 86. Have you managed to speak to MPs at all today? They will be

:51:05.:51:09.

coming back to their constituencies -- from their constituencies, and

:51:10.:51:12.

Ken Clarke will take his place of the longest serving father of the

:51:13.:51:16.

House. One of the things MPs are paying tribute to is the wit of

:51:17.:51:23.

Gerald Kaufmann. Something that in more modern times in the House of

:51:24.:51:27.

Commons has appeared to be lacking. He really was one of those MPs who

:51:28.:51:34.

showed how much you can achieve in politics by a sense of humour. Thank

:51:35.:51:42.

you very much. To rush inside! Gerald Kaufman, because obviously

:51:43.:51:49.

you knew him. Yes. It was very sad news. He was very waspish and witty

:51:50.:51:56.

but he was also, in person, very kind and always very willing to give

:51:57.:52:01.

advice and you learn a lot from him over his years of experience. It was

:52:02.:52:06.

always very measured and balanced but as that reporter said, he was

:52:07.:52:11.

very waspish and witty and always a joy to listen to. I felt very sad

:52:12.:52:15.

about that this morning. Quite a colourful character in the House,

:52:16.:52:19.

not just in the way he dressed. Will you be listening with bated breath

:52:20.:52:24.

to John Major's speech? I doubt it's. We spent the whole referendum

:52:25.:52:28.

campaign with most of the big names, all the experts and institutions on

:52:29.:52:32.

the wrong side, as far as I was concerned, and the fact that a few

:52:33.:52:34.

of them haven't switched back doesn't surprise me and I doubt if

:52:35.:52:38.

there will be new arguments. I think the Government is doing a very good

:52:39.:52:41.

job on Brexit, we need to get across our message that we want to be

:52:42.:52:44.

friends with everyone on the continent and trade with them and

:52:45.:52:47.

have all sorts of collaborations with them but Leave does mean no

:52:48.:52:52.

European court, no budget contributions, no open borders that

:52:53.:52:55.

we don't control. I think what will be interesting is that there are

:52:56.:53:00.

many people who supported Remain who now want to get onto, what does a

:53:01.:53:04.

good Brexit look like for jobs growth, workers' rights and

:53:05.:53:09.

environmental standards? My hunch, although I don't know, is that that

:53:10.:53:14.

is what he will focus on - how do we get the best? Because there are very

:53:15.:53:18.

different views and options for what kind of Brexit there is. Not

:53:19.:53:23.

stopping Brexit? There isn't just one option. I know you've got an

:53:24.:53:26.

option you want but there isn't just one option. I think what John Major

:53:27.:53:31.

and others who love the EU and these kinds of institutions could do for

:53:32.:53:35.

us as a country is to direct their comments to the European Union

:53:36.:53:38.

because, in practice, whether we have to impose minimum tariffs or we

:53:39.:53:43.

go tariff free will be a call that they make. We would like to be

:53:44.:53:49.

tariff free. But there might be some momentum with Tony Blair... Can you

:53:50.:53:54.

just listen to me for a minute? An issue where the Vote Leave and pain

:53:55.:53:58.

felt very strongly. We want to assure everyone in Britain who has

:53:59.:54:01.

come here illegally that they can stay to talk we have no wish to try

:54:02.:54:06.

and get rid of them and I think it is probably illegal in international

:54:07.:54:09.

law. Why can't be EU say the same thing? We must stand up for EU

:54:10.:54:13.

citizens living on the continent. Mrs May is quite right about that.

:54:14.:54:19.

John Major should address his remarks to the EU. You are meant to

:54:20.:54:24.

be a Bastia decent values and you can't even say that you will secure

:54:25.:54:28.

the rights of Britain's settled on the continent. Why couldn't she have

:54:29.:54:35.

done it unilaterally? She has to represent Britain's interested top

:54:36.:54:38.

the tone of both sides is important to adopt we are in a negotiation.

:54:39.:54:48.

Why is it... Let Liz speak. Some of the things she has said have really

:54:49.:54:51.

riled up Europe and vice versa and if we're going to get through this

:54:52.:54:54.

and have a deal that works for Britain and the rest of the EU, the

:54:55.:54:59.

is very important and I think that maybe what John Major tries to set.

:55:00.:55:09.

And you can watch the entire Lords debate on Article 50 from 2.30 this

:55:10.:55:12.

afternoon by pressing the Red Button on your TV remote.

:55:13.:55:15.

While the showbiz world was glued to the Oscars last night,

:55:16.:55:17.

in Central London, MPs flocked to another glitzy awards ceremony.

:55:18.:55:19.

The annual British Kebab Awards took place in Westminster with dozens

:55:20.:55:23.

of politicians in the audience and two on the judging panel.

:55:24.:55:26.

Hopefully they didn't make any mistakes in this one.

:55:27.:55:28.

MPs were keen to say they weren't supporting the event just

:55:29.:55:31.

Really importantly, a lot of employment,

:55:32.:55:33.

a lot of opportunity, and it's wonderful to actually

:55:34.:55:36.

But, also, this helps fund a really important think tank,

:55:37.:55:39.

the Centre For Turkish Studies, as well.

:55:40.:55:41.

I think they're an amazingly important awards ceremony,

:55:42.:55:44.

celebrating what is very good about Britain and that is

:55:45.:55:47.

eating takeaway food and supporting the local economy.

:55:48.:55:51.

This is the second time I've come to the awards and I'm

:55:52.:55:55.

delighted that I was able to nominate my

:55:56.:55:57.

I can't hear anything because everyone is looking at the food! Who

:55:58.:56:11.

says MPs are not attracted by the offer of free food?

:56:12.:56:14.

The Conservative MP Nadhim Zahawi, one of the judges at the awards

:56:15.:56:17.

last night, is with us, as is Ibrahim Dogus

:56:18.:56:19.

At least you didn't make any dreadful, jaw-dropping mistakes, I

:56:20.:56:27.

assume! It ran like clockwork! Maybe you could give some advice to the

:56:28.:56:33.

people who run the Oscars. Ibrahim Mihlib make that sort of the six.

:56:34.:56:37.

Five years ago, he approached me with an idea. He is a brilliant

:56:38.:56:41.

entrepreneur, restaurateur, sadly a member of the Labour Party but we

:56:42.:56:47.

won't hold that against him! We are talking about the kebabs at this

:56:48.:56:53.

point! He, five years ago, said, I've got this idea, the industry

:56:54.:56:57.

employs about 20,000 people, ?2.8 billion. Lots of entrepreneurs,

:56:58.:57:01.

manufacturers of products. We have the first one in Parliament,

:57:02.:57:05.

standing room only, in a committee room. Now it is many people in the

:57:06.:57:12.

Plaza hotel. Is going to continue? It will. This is just the fifth

:57:13.:57:17.

year. Why are they so successful? Wires the British kebabs... This

:57:18.:57:24.

poor man can't speak! Why are kebabs are so important? It has been

:57:25.:57:29.

important UK for many years. The first kebab restaurant in Soho was

:57:30.:57:32.

established in the 1940s so it is about 70 years now so it continues

:57:33.:57:37.

to become a national dish in the UK and those enrolled in the business

:57:38.:57:41.

are mainly small and medium enterprises. You are a fan of

:57:42.:57:46.

kebabs, aren't you? I made it about last night and it is not winning any

:57:47.:57:50.

awards but it did the job. John, any of these take your fancy? I'm sure

:57:51.:57:57.

they will. No, I'm not sure they will. You might have to fight with

:57:58.:58:00.

everybody else! What is it that pomegranate? It is a mixed salad,

:58:01.:58:06.

which goes well with the mixed grill, Donner kebab. Oh, look,

:58:07.:58:12.

fingers! Good for you! You are supposed to eat it with your

:58:13.:58:15.

fingers. Are you feeling a bit peckish?

:58:16.:58:21.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:58:22.:58:24.

The question was, in his interview with

:58:25.:58:26.

the Sunday Express what did Ukip donor Arron Banks compare

:58:27.:58:29.

Or D - a poorly organised party in a brewery?

:58:30.:58:37.

I have no idea. Whelk stall. You think it is the whelk stall? I think

:58:38.:58:49.

it is deep. It is the jumble sale! At least you are concentrating!

:58:50.:58:51.

Thanks to Liz, John and all my guests.

:58:52.:58:55.

And to you for bringing in the kebabs. Well done for a fifth

:58:56.:59:02.

successful event. At

:59:03.:59:03.

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