09/03/2017 Daily Politics


09/03/2017

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn are joined by fund manager and gender equality campaigner Helena Morrissey to discuss the latest news from Westminster and the fallout from the budget.


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Transcript


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It was all smiles yesterday, but it turned out that the Chancellor's

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Budget Box contained a broken manifesto promise.

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Conservative backbenchers aren't happy about his increases

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to national insurance for the self employed.

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Will he be forced into a U-turn on his first Budget?

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There was ?2 billion for social care over three years

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but is it too little, too late and do we really

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need yet another review of social care funding?

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A Referendum on Independence in the autumn of 2018

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would be "common sense", according to Nicola Sturgeon.

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Has Brexit made another poll in Scotland inevitable?

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And at the Daily Politics we realise that politics

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And with us for the duration, fund manager, gender equality

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campaigner and all-round super-woman, Helena Morrissey.

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You just have to live up to that build-up now.

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First this morning, it was a smaller budget than normal

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- just 28 measures - but it's just one of

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them that's dominating the headlines this morning.

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That's the increases in National Insurance

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Here's the crucial annoucement from yesterday's Budget.

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To improve the fairness of the tax system, I will act to reduce the gap

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to better reflect current differences in state benefits.

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I have considered, Mr Deputy Speaker,

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the possibility of simply reversing the decision to abolish Class 2

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But the Class 2 Nic is regressive and outdated.

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Instead, from April 2018, when the Class 2 Nic is abolished,

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the main rate of class 4 Nics for the self-employed

:02:31.:02:35.

will increase by 1% to 10%, with a further 1%

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It is all very complicated. The key political point is

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that increase in national insurance has broken a pledge that appeared

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This is page 7 of the Conservative manifesto, as you can see

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This is what the papers thought of that.

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The Sun has the headline "spite van man" and says the Chancellor

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"sparked a national wave of fury by unleashing a ?240-a-year

:03:24.:03:27.

tax raid on Britain's self-employed strivers".

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The Daily Mirror pictures Theresa May howling with laughter

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at one of Philip Hammond's quips, and asks: "What's

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The paper dubs it "the betrayal Budget".

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"No laughing matter," declares the Daily Mail and says

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the Chancellor littered his Budget with jokes but broke an election

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pledge by "hammering" the self-employed and savers.

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The Times headline says the Chancellor launched

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a "?2 billion tax raid" on self-employed workers to provide

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"Tories break tax vow" is how the Daily Telegraph puts it,

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accusing Philip Hammond of breaking a key Conservative manifesto pledge.

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And "Hammond falls into tax trap" is the Guardian's headline,

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saying the Chancellor's attempt at a low-key package of measures

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threatens to be overshadowed by the National Insurance row.

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The Government's said it's sticking to its commitment not to increase

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the main rate of national insurance for employed people and it's

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There are actually four types of National Insurance

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Class 1 is for people who are employed - that's

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They pay 12% on earnings above ?155 a week and 2%

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After the 2015 general election, the Government passed a law banning

:05:03.:05:10.

increases in this particular type of National

:05:11.:05:12.

Class 2 Nics are for self-employed with low earnings

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but they're being abolished in April 2018.

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Class 3 NICs are voluntary contributions that some employed

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and self-employed people can choose to pay, in order to boost

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Class 4 Nics are paid by people who are self-employed

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The rate is currently 9% on earnings above ?8,060 and then 2%

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In the Budget yesterday, Philip Hammond announced

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that the core 9% rate of Class 4 National Insurance Contributions

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will go up to 10% in April 2018 and then 11% in April 2019.

:05:51.:06:00.

Because of those changes to both Class 2 and Class 4 Nics,

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1.6 million people will pay ?240 more every year on average.

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And that will eventually mean ?145 million going into

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But that figure could go up in the future if more people become

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Well, this morning the Chancellor toured the TV and radio stations,

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defending his national insurance policy.

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There was a broad commitment to lock taxes so that there will be no tax

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increases, and that's what we have done, because the Chancellor now,

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I'm working within an extremely constrained environment where we

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face some new challenges in this country.

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But that's the argument you could make, couldn't you?

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You could basically say, yes, we've changed our policy because

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We face some new challenges which we have to rise to.

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I'm doing that within a very constrained environment where

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most taxes cannot be raised and much of our spending is also ringfenced

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And we're joined now from Central Lobby by

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the Conservative MP, Anne Marie Trevelyan.

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-- Dominik Rab and the shadow Treasury minister. The Conservative

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manifesto said four times he would not raise national insurance

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contributions. You have raised them and broken your promise will stop

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this was a solid and responsible budget. With any budget committee

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want to pay for things you want to do like social care and take the

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edge of business rates, you must pay for them somehow. And that is by

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breaking your promise? Budgets are a package it is easy to run for the

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hills when there is one bit you do not like. I do not like this bit

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much. The truth is, both on the substance of the policy and to make

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sure we square with what we have said, and you can read out as many

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bits of the manifesto as you like. There are different types of Nics.

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We will have a separate piece of national insurance legislation. The

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need to make sure we are not hurting the entrepreneurial classes, to make

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sure we live by, not just the letter but the spirit of our commitments.

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It would mean this promise is not worth the paper it is written on. If

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you are self-employed, and you have voted Conservative on the basis of

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your four promises in the 2015 manifesto, you were sold a false

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prospectus. You have picked out selective bits of the manifesto. We

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were asked about this at length. I agree with you that we need to

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square what we are doing with not just the letter but also the spirit

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of the commitments. I do not agree with that. Just address this. David

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Cameron tweeted during the 20 15th election campaign when people were

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making up their minds, you said, Labour needs to raise national

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insurance to make their sums add up. Hard-working people will end up

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paying for is that you have had to raise them and hard-working people

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will pay. That was said in the context of Ed Miliband talking about

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the National Insurance employer 's contribution, which we said would be

:09:31.:09:35.

a jobs tax. I'm not going to argue that this will be the one thorny

:09:36.:09:42.

issue in the Budget. It is fine for journalist pick a hole in something.

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It is a package. You made the promise four times. There was no

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mention, when you put the legislation through. The Government

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has said it concentrated on class one. It did not cover the ones you

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put up yesterday. The minister in the House of Lords at the time,

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cheated the registration through the Lords will she did not even know

:10:07.:10:11.

this is what was being planned. She said she would never have expected

:10:12.:10:15.

us to do this or that we said in good faith we would not raise

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national insurance rates. That is the woman that took your legislation

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through. We have all types of national insurance contributions and

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rates. There is a query about whether we are living up to both the

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spirit, as opposed to just the letter, of the commitment. We do

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have national insurance legislation which is separate from the Budget

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which is an opportunity to look at this from the round. We do not want

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to penalised the entrepreneurial classes. We must deal with the

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nuances which was said around the time of the election. The advantage

:10:51.:10:54.

with that being stand-alone legislation is we must look at this

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properly and keep our promises. The truth about this Budget, you can

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pick a hole in it. I understand that is your job. If you compare the

:11:05.:11:10.

package we put forward, both to cut taxes for basic rate taxpayers, will

:11:11.:11:14.

be saving the average taxpayer ?1000 year to the income tax allowance, to

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the extra money will put into social care, if you want to do that

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responsibly you must come up with a package. Jeremy Corbyn was talking

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about windmills yesterday. One of the choices is not to break your

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words to the British people. I am looking at whether we can trust a

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Tory manifesto and the paper it is written on. That is what journalists

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should do. If you want to pay for the things that Tory MPs say, we

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have to put into business rates and schools you can only do if you face

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up to the difficult decisions. The Labour Party is totally incapable of

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that. Jonathan, when the Government turn this manifesto promise into

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legislation, why didn't Labour check what national insurance

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contributions it was going to cover? This is a straightforward commitment

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in the manifesto and parliament from the Conservatives. Of course they

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have broken their commitment. We allow them to legislate. Why didn't

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you track? Everyone believed they were generally ruling out a raise.

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Isn't it your job, as the official opposition, to check the Government

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is living up to its promises and make sure that a promise which

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seemed to come up or national insurance contributions, all classes

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of them, was actually the case rather than being selective? The

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Government has clearly broken its manifesto pledge. There is no

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Conservative MP who believed their promise or national insurance

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related to social national insurance plans. Everyone believed they were

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promising to freeze this. It focused on one type of Nics. You failed to

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hold the Government to account on the other classes of Nics. They made

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a clear commitment that the issue here is not just about the manifesto

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commitment. It is about the fact the premise of Chancellor gave for this

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change is not correct. Self-employed people to not have the same rights

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as the employed. They do not have access to sick pay or maternity pay.

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What is really extraordinary, when you look at the one thing,

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Conservative MPs will rightly praise their record. A huge part of that

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has been self-employed people and now they are turning round and

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hammering them. I understand that. Given the immensity of the situation

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and what has happened, why did Jeremy Corbyn not raise it in

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response to the Budget yesterday? Responding to a budget is the

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hardest thing. This is a broken manifesto pledge. Where you in the

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chamber yesterday questioned that you will know it was buzzing around

:14:17.:14:20.

the House, particularly on the Tory side when they realised what was

:14:21.:14:25.

being done. Yet, the Leader of the Opposition in a pledge given four

:14:26.:14:28.

times could not even manage to raise it in his response. He did mention

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the impact on self-employed people. He did not mention that it was a

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broken promise. The chamber was buzzing when the enormity of what

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they had done came through and people realised. Again, the

:14:41.:14:47.

opposition missing an edge. We made a decision to oppose this. Even as

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Jeremy had just about done, just about as quick as you could do so

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does you do not get the documents in opposition until the transfer has

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sat down. Everybody knew what happened. The press knew what

:15:01.:15:03.

happened. We needed the Redbook. When you look at the cuts in tax,

:15:04.:15:10.

you can clearly see this is not a large amount of money being raised.

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It was a wrong decision. Stick with us for the moment. We're going to

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talk to one Conservative MP who is very happy about it. While I was

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reading all those figures and the different types of national

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insurance contributions. When I talked about class 4 Nics, it is

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people earning that a year and not a week. Where you surprised by the

:15:40.:15:43.

announcements from Philip Hammond on Nics?

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I think on this issue, we need a U-turn quickly. How is that going to

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happen? I believe as the others have said, the National instruments

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contribution changes will be brought forward in a separate bill and we

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need to change that. We need to keep the pressure up so people understand

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this change is not acceptable. This change affects ordinary working

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families who have taken the risk of setting up small business and many a

:16:24.:16:27.

ploy apprentices, the backbone of our economy, and it makes us feel we

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have broken our promise, it is not acceptable and cannot proceed. What

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impact will it have on people thinking about starting their

:16:39.:16:41.

business or setting up self-employed? It will not have much

:16:42.:16:46.

impact in terms of people thinking of setting up their business because

:16:47.:16:49.

they are entrepreneurs and there has been a huge rise in the

:16:50.:16:54.

self-employed who want to take that risk, it shows the wrong message and

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says we are not providing you with every possible opportunity to make

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it easy. The Government has a great record of employment over seven

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years and making it easier for people to set up business and take

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risks. This type of change is very complicated and people do not like

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complicated issues and it sends the wrong message. In terms of revenue,

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it raises money and my local public organisations waste more than that

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over the next 12 months. It does not race a lot of money and the

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Chancellor in his defence said it is a matter of fairness that this had

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to be seen in terms of trying to equalise the tax paid by an employee

:17:36.:17:40.

to nurse and an agency nurse. What you say to that? I do understand the

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element about fairness and I campaign for fairness, but there are

:17:48.:17:50.

two microwaves, one is to raise a tax level which I do not think is

:17:51.:17:54.

fair and the other is to reduce tax levels. As a Conservative MP, I

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prefer lower taxes with reformed public services and more money

:18:00.:18:04.

delivering services people want to help ordinary working families. I am

:18:05.:18:08.

using the phrase fairness to get round this, what is fair is giving

:18:09.:18:12.

people everybody opportunity to get on in life. Are you embarrassed by

:18:13.:18:17.

this when you have to face your constituents, some of them unhappy

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about this? I am not embarrassed in the sense of this is politics and

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people's lives. You said it is a broken promise. We have got to go

:18:28.:18:33.

out and fix it, it is not a broken promise yet and we have to ensure

:18:34.:18:36.

this does not go through and I will be working with people to deliver

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that. These changes go into a separate bill is not part of the

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main finance bill and that happens in May and June. When you talk about

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pressure in the next couple of days, apart from appearing on programmes

:18:50.:18:53.

like this, how will you pressurise the Chancellor? There is no

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indication of change. We have back channels and we are talking in the

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party about the issue. No doubt people are dead if I do love all of

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opposition and I am sure Philip Hammond is a great Chancellor and he

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will look at the issue in more detail and come up with a better

:19:12.:19:16.

solution that does create change. Thank you very much.

:19:17.:19:23.

Dominick, was the indication of what you said that because there is

:19:24.:19:26.

legislation for this, do you want changes on this? The point Philip

:19:27.:19:32.

Hammond was made was the treatment of self-employed and employed needs

:19:33.:19:37.

to be equitable and I made the argument about National Insurance

:19:38.:19:41.

being consolidated with income tax. We have freestanding legislation and

:19:42.:19:44.

we can look at it in the round and be consistent with our promises and

:19:45.:19:48.

we do not penalise the entrepreneurial classes. The problem

:19:49.:19:52.

with this is that we are putting 10 million into the NHS by 2020 and an

:19:53.:19:58.

extra ?2 billion in social care. It is all very well Labour saying what

:19:59.:20:02.

they do not like, but if you ask for a credible alternative, you would

:20:03.:20:09.

not get one. You have had a good say, I want to hear from Labour.

:20:10.:20:13.

Look at the detail of the Budget and the big expenditure. It is that huge

:20:14.:20:18.

cut the corporation tax and inheritance tax. If you did not tax

:20:19.:20:24.

entrepreneurs, that might generate revenue. You can make that argument

:20:25.:20:29.

about any tax rate, it is the balance between what you are asking

:20:30.:20:33.

people to pay with this tax on self-employed people compared to

:20:34.:20:36.

your big giveaways to big organisations. Hold on. How much has

:20:37.:20:46.

corporate, corporation tax receipts fallen since it was cut? If you look

:20:47.:20:54.

at the red book. I am asking you a question, how much? The net cost is

:20:55.:20:58.

about 18 billion. Corporation tax has come down from 28, the 20%,

:20:59.:21:05.

since 2010. How much have receipts fallen? I do not have that figure, I

:21:06.:21:09.

can tell you for the next five years. That is projection, I want

:21:10.:21:13.

the real figures. I will tell you the real figures. Corporation tax

:21:14.:21:17.

receipts up from 40 billion to 50 billion, so where is the cut? The

:21:18.:21:21.

cutters into the rate and how would you know you would not have got more

:21:22.:21:25.

money? Corporation tax receipts have not fallen, can we agree? Yes, there

:21:26.:21:30.

is a cost to agreeing to reduce corporation tax. You do not know

:21:31.:21:36.

that we know about forecasts, look at the OBR forecast in November and

:21:37.:21:40.

talk to me about forecasts. What you make of this? I am a bit confused.

:21:41.:21:45.

If you want to see more activity, you want to tax it less, and less

:21:46.:21:49.

activity or use of something, you tax it more. The sugar tax makes

:21:50.:21:54.

sense. You have talked about making sure this does not affect

:21:55.:21:58.

entrepreneurs, I think it does and that slightly does not make sense. I

:21:59.:22:03.

would like to see it in the context of the vision for where we are in

:22:04.:22:07.

terms of encouraging entrepreneurs in this country, and where there has

:22:08.:22:11.

been a rise, which is great. The Chancellor gave the game away by

:22:12.:22:16.

talking about the fact he saw this as a mismatch which needs to be

:22:17.:22:21.

addressed between self-employed and NICs is a cost of ?6 billion to the

:22:22.:22:27.

Exchequer. It is not really a cost, we should turn this around and think

:22:28.:22:32.

it is revenue, people are running this, it is their money and we are

:22:33.:22:36.

trying to encourage them to earn more of which they will give some to

:22:37.:22:41.

the revenue. Corporation tax is a great example, companies have the

:22:42.:22:45.

right and they paid more revenue. That encourages them to thrive. It

:22:46.:22:50.

is not strategically make sense which is why it was for me

:22:51.:22:56.

disappointing. One Tory backbencher who sounded like he could be

:22:57.:23:02.

rebelling, said Mr Hammond in the Budget yesterday hammered three

:23:03.:23:06.

types of people who vote Tory. The self-employed, owners of small

:23:07.:23:10.

companies, and the thrifty who save for their old age. You have hit all

:23:11.:23:16.

three. Who was that? I am not telling you. You speak be terms as

:23:17.:23:23.

well. Don't throw that at me. I think it is fair enough. What is

:23:24.:23:30.

wrong with it? If people will not go on the record and stand up as I am

:23:31.:23:34.

doing for the difficult choices we make it is worth pointing out.

:23:35.:23:38.

Nobody has told me if we reverse National Insurance, which I would

:23:39.:23:41.

like to do, how we pay for it. How would you pay the money not just for

:23:42.:23:46.

cutting taxes, the personal allowance or corporation tax which

:23:47.:23:50.

we agree is positive, but also to do things for social care, the elderly

:23:51.:23:58.

and the vulnerable, to do stuff for training and new schools money? That

:23:59.:24:01.

is the business of serious and credible government. It is what

:24:02.:24:06.

Labour territory at catered. A final point. 85% of people who pay

:24:07.:24:12.

National Insurance will be unaffected. Of the 15% affected, 60%

:24:13.:24:18.

will benefit from the cuts. The lower paid benefit, 116,000 or

:24:19.:24:24.

under, you will not be affected by this. -- ?16,000. This is quite a

:24:25.:24:32.

progressive change. The big increases come from those who are

:24:33.:24:36.

self-employed, who make a lot of money, so why are you opposing a

:24:37.:24:41.

progressive tax change? I do not agree with that analysis, ?16,500

:24:42.:24:47.

earnings, that is not breaking it in. Where is the money coming from?

:24:48.:24:54.

What about the inheritance tax cut? How is it right to go ahead with

:24:55.:24:58.

that and hitting those who generate the wealth? That does not raise the

:24:59.:25:03.

10 billion extra for the NHS or the ?2 billion extra. You cannot have it

:25:04.:25:10.

both ways. The inheritance tax is ?1 billion! He did that, I did the

:25:11.:25:20.

other! Moving on, you are staying here, we are keeping you hostage. We

:25:21.:25:22.

have not finished with you that. Now, in the lead-up to yesterday's

:25:23.:25:29.

Budget, the Chancellor had been under increasing pressure to find

:25:30.:25:31.

extra cash for England's Local authorities say that more

:25:32.:25:33.

than ?4.5 billion has been cut from social care budgets since 2010,

:25:34.:25:37.

at a time when demand is surging. Yesterday, Mr Hammond responded

:25:38.:25:40.

to claims of a crisis by promising yet another review

:25:41.:25:42.

of social care funding. But he also said there

:25:43.:25:44.

would be some more money Let's have a listen

:25:45.:25:47.

to what he had to say. Today, Mr Deputy Speaker, I am

:25:48.:25:51.

committing additional grant funding of ?2 billion to social

:25:52.:25:53.

care in England under Mr Deputy Speaker, that's ?2 billion

:25:54.:26:00.

over the next three years, with ?1 billion available in '17/'18 -

:26:01.:26:14.

that will allow local authorities to act now

:26:15.:26:17.

to commission new care packages and forms a bridge to the better care

:26:18.:26:20.

funding that becomes available And I'm joined now from

:26:21.:26:23.

Central Lobby by Norman Lamb, the Lib Dems' spokesman on health,

:26:24.:26:32.

and former Health Minister under Dominic Raab and Jonathan Reynolds

:26:33.:26:35.

are still with us. First of all, Norman, do you welcome

:26:36.:26:45.

the money announced by Philip Hammond for the short-term? It is

:26:46.:26:50.

certainly better than nothing, but it is inadequate because if you

:26:51.:26:53.

think the increase in the National Minimum Wage, the so-called national

:26:54.:26:59.

living wage, costs an extra ?900 million in the coming year, this

:27:00.:27:03.

really does not go anywhere near reaching the level we need to get

:27:04.:27:09.

social care stabilised again. The health foundation, independent

:27:10.:27:16.

organisation, reckons the gap is ?2 billion. If they are right, this

:27:17.:27:19.

settlement inevitably means more older people will have care needs,

:27:20.:27:24.

who don't have those met. Who will end up inevitably, unnecessarily in

:27:25.:27:30.

hospital, increasing the burden on the NHS. It is yet another sticking

:27:31.:27:34.

plaster and my total frustration with the Government is that rather

:27:35.:27:39.

than lurching from crisis to crisis and diverting the crisis at last

:27:40.:27:44.

minute in this way, surely the time has come when we need to take a once

:27:45.:27:49.

in a generation look at the NHS care system. It was designed in the 1940s

:27:50.:27:55.

and the needs have changed so much in the period since. I put together

:27:56.:28:01.

a group of cross-party MPs, Conservative, Labour and Liberal

:28:02.:28:06.

Democrats. It was not taken on board, those recommendations. We met

:28:07.:28:10.

with the Prime Minister, she has agreed to sanction the start of a

:28:11.:28:14.

dialogue. We will soon meet with the new health adviser but I do not have

:28:15.:28:19.

enormous confidence the Government will take this approach. The money

:28:20.:28:24.

first of all, ?2 billion over three years. If you take what the councils

:28:25.:28:28.

and local government associations say, they need almost three times

:28:29.:28:32.

that, so this is a sticking plaster and it will not meet the needs

:28:33.:28:38.

councils say is necessary. It is a pretty big sticking plaster, ?2

:28:39.:28:43.

billion. I agree it is a first step and nobody thinks we have got the

:28:44.:28:45.

social care issue sorted for the long term in a sustainable way. It

:28:46.:28:51.

is very thorny. I do think it would be a good idea to forge a

:28:52.:28:56.

cross-party consensus on this, but the problem is if you are in

:28:57.:29:02.

opposition and I am not this about labour, but the temptation would be

:29:03.:29:05.

not to do the quiet and steady and sensible things of agreeing about

:29:06.:29:11.

principles, but to criticise anything and any step to be taken.

:29:12.:29:18.

What I would love to see, Norman is right, is Tim Farron genuinely

:29:19.:29:21.

reaching out to the Government and saying, let's have a coalition on

:29:22.:29:26.

that issue. Let's stick to the money. The money is important, you

:29:27.:29:33.

said a sticking plaster and not enough. You said it was a big

:29:34.:29:39.

sticking plaster. I said it was a first step. And you said it was a

:29:40.:29:42.

big sticking plaster. The figures do not add up if you are sitting in a

:29:43.:29:48.

local council and you have to deal with adult social care. ?4.6 billion

:29:49.:29:54.

has been cut from the adult social care Budget since 2010, according to

:29:55.:30:00.

those councils, white or you only giving ?2 billion? We have had a

:30:01.:30:03.

wider discussion about the difficulty raising revenue, you need

:30:04.:30:08.

to know where you cut taxes or what you cut? They are difficult

:30:09.:30:11.

decisions and we have taken a first step and it is not a question of the

:30:12.:30:16.

death tax I am not in favour of, but at what point you say you could cap

:30:17.:30:20.

costs. Whether working with the private sector, they can depend what

:30:21.:30:26.

we do, and none of this is easy stuff. So the cuts were wrong in the

:30:27.:30:29.

first place the local government spending?

:30:30.:30:35.

I'm not going to accept the figures put forward by the representatives

:30:36.:30:41.

of the Local Government Association. The Government must look at these

:30:42.:30:47.

issues in and around. Jonathan Reynolds, you have talked about more

:30:48.:31:00.

money. Where would you find it? The capital gains tax cut from last year

:31:01.:31:03.

and the bank levy. These are difficult decisions. Did a good

:31:04.:31:09.

people on the front by commissioning services, worried about the safety

:31:10.:31:12.

of adults and children and families who feel the impact of that. They

:31:13.:31:20.

can take ?4.5 billion out of the system. Jonathan Reynolds, I had

:31:21.:31:24.

just done the money. Let's have a look at your figures. We talked

:31:25.:31:28.

briefly about corporation tax. Let's have a look at the projection. If

:31:29.:31:36.

you look at the cuts, it would bring in between three 7p. How much I be

:31:37.:31:41.

put forward as a Labour Party question what we have me completely

:31:42.:31:47.

different choices. You pledged ?15 billion worth of spending pledges.

:31:48.:31:53.

Even if we take that projection of corporation tax is at its highest

:31:54.:31:58.

level of ?10 billion, you are short. Where would you find the money? It

:31:59.:32:04.

is the bank levy and the inheritance tax cut. The priority has to be the

:32:05.:32:08.

stability of public services. That is not the priority of this

:32:09.:32:13.

government by any means. Should it be a priority that money should be

:32:14.:32:17.

spent there? It should be borrowed or taxes should rise. The priority

:32:18.:32:23.

is, we need a long-term solution. One thing which is disappointing

:32:24.:32:28.

about the Budget yesterday, it is not visionary in terms of how we're

:32:29.:32:31.

going to address that priority which is one among several priorities. How

:32:32.:32:35.

does it all stuck up over the next decade or to macro, not just the

:32:36.:32:40.

next 12 months question what our hypothecated tax? Would you back it?

:32:41.:32:45.

Something might potentially be possible. As I said on Monday,

:32:46.:32:49.

please not another rebuke of that is basically what we have. -- review.

:32:50.:33:00.

In greater Manchester, we're bringing together health and social

:33:01.:33:03.

care to do it. We need national government to show the same level to

:33:04.:33:09.

get a long-term settlement. On a hypothecated health tax, would you

:33:10.:33:13.

be in favour question what you want to increase income tax. We have set

:33:14.:33:19.

up an expert panel to look at the case for this. Attacks for the NHS

:33:20.:33:24.

and for care. People would see where money was going. -- a tax. An

:33:25.:33:29.

independent assessment of what the system needs and people would have

:33:30.:33:32.

confidence that their money was going on what they care and awful

:33:33.:33:36.

lot about. A leading Conservative supported what we are arguing for. I

:33:37.:33:41.

hope there will be a growing consensus this sort of reform is

:33:42.:33:44.

what is needed. Thank you very much. Thank you.

:33:45.:33:49.

Now, EU leaders are meeting in Brussels this afternoon for one

:33:50.:33:52.

Theresa May will be there for what's almost certainly the last such

:33:53.:33:56.

gathering before Article 50 is triggered and negotiations

:33:57.:33:58.

proper begin on Britain's departure from the EU.

:33:59.:34:00.

Our deputy political editor, John Pienaar, is there for us.

:34:01.:34:05.

John, well come back to the programme. What is on the agenda

:34:06.:34:13.

today? -- welcome back. The leaders, including Theresa May, will start

:34:14.:34:17.

arriving now. They'll be talking about migration and picking up where

:34:18.:34:21.

they left. At that informal summit. They will talk about the economy and

:34:22.:34:26.

future free-trade agreements. The lobby talking about security and the

:34:27.:34:32.

Western Balkans and Russia. -- they will be talking. Theresa May is not

:34:33.:34:37.

staying for much longer after that. They'll be talking about the

:34:38.:34:40.

anniversary of the EU's and entreaty of Rome. She will not be there. It

:34:41.:34:45.

is hard to see why. It was thought generally inappropriate to have the

:34:46.:34:53.

discussion about the togetherness of the EU just before the divorce.

:34:54.:34:59.

Donald Tusk is the president of the European Council. That is where the

:35:00.:35:02.

heads of state and heads of government gather. His own country,

:35:03.:35:07.

Poland, is opposing him. What is going on here? It is a curious and

:35:08.:35:13.

interesting feud between Donald Tusk, the president of the council,

:35:14.:35:17.

and the Polish government. His ruling party in Poland are political

:35:18.:35:23.

opponents of Donald Tusk. He staged a sit-in in the parliament not so

:35:24.:35:29.

long ago. He accused Donald Tusk of supporting the overthrow of the

:35:30.:35:32.

Government will do that is all very nasty. People like Angela Merkel and

:35:33.:35:40.

President Francois Hollande will stay where they are. Theresa May

:35:41.:35:48.

will no doubt try to use keep -- try to keep out of it. Nicola Sturgeon

:35:49.:35:55.

has been talking about the second independence referendum. Let's

:35:56.:35:58.

listen to and then I will come back to you. Within that window, I guess,

:35:59.:36:02.

of when the outline of the UK deal becomes clear, and the UK ex-eating

:36:03.:36:11.

the EU, I think it would be the common-sense time for Scotland to

:36:12.:36:15.

have that choice, if that is the road we choose to go down. You're

:36:16.:36:20.

not running out Autumn 2018? I am not ruling out anything, no. John,

:36:21.:36:26.

Scotland's minister is talking about a second referendum in the autumn of

:36:27.:36:32.

2018. -- First Minister. It is possible by then we will not know

:36:33.:36:36.

the full Brexit deal and negotiations will still be going on.

:36:37.:36:42.

I understand the Government is not minded, the British government is

:36:43.:36:47.

not minded, to agree a second referendum until a Brexit deal is

:36:48.:36:51.

done and dusted. Is that your understanding? No. Yes, it is you

:36:52.:36:58.

can see why that would be. Nicola Sturgeon was keeping the possible of

:36:59.:37:02.

a possible referendum next year wide open. You have probably seen there

:37:03.:37:08.

has been a new opinion poll today which bases of support for and

:37:09.:37:14.

against Scottish independence very evenly balanced indeed. Most of the

:37:15.:37:18.

polls in recent months have been favouring the idea of staying in the

:37:19.:37:22.

union. Nicola Sturgeon no doubt would rather have a big lead before

:37:23.:37:26.

going for another referendum poll. She cannot afford to lose a second

:37:27.:37:30.

time here is the key thing was that she is under pressure as well and

:37:31.:37:34.

under pressure from the march of Brexit. If there is a Scottish

:37:35.:37:40.

referendum after Britain is on its way and out of the European Union,

:37:41.:37:43.

the Scottish voter would be asked, do they want to leave not only the

:37:44.:37:50.

union and the European Union as well? Nicola Sturgeon wants to keep

:37:51.:37:54.

up the pressure and see the polls shift she can the chance are armed.

:37:55.:37:57.

Eye-macro thank you very much for that.

:37:58.:38:02.

-- chance her arm. The Nice summit was a four shirt summit.

:38:03.:38:12.

Now, last week, elections in Northern Ireland failed to resolve

:38:13.:38:15.

Sinn Fein gained seats and Unionists no longer have an overall

:38:16.:38:18.

The DUP are still - by one seat - the biggest party, but with

:38:19.:38:23.

Sinn Fein's Michelle O'Neill still refusing to share

:38:24.:38:26.

power with DUP leader Arlene Foster, there's deadlock.

:38:27.:38:28.

The clock is ticking, as they now have three weeks to try

:38:29.:38:31.

Yesterday, the Northern Ireland Secretary,

:38:32.:38:33.

James Brokenshire, had a busy day - in Westminster for Cabinet,

:38:34.:38:36.

and then off to Northern Ireland to continue talks.

:38:37.:38:38.

Here's what he told reporters last night.

:38:39.:38:42.

I'm not going to provide a running commentary in relation

:38:43.:38:44.

There have been, I think, some helpful discussions that have

:38:45.:38:48.

taken place over recent days and a real commitment that I've

:38:49.:38:51.

discerned from the parties to get back into government,

:38:52.:38:57.

to get back into an Executive, and therefore delivering

:38:58.:38:59.

But I know that this won't all be plain sailing,

:39:00.:39:05.

but underlining that sense of what we have at stake here,

:39:06.:39:08.

the real issues that matter for Northern Ireland,

:39:09.:39:13.

that positive sense of progression that we need to continue

:39:14.:39:16.

to maintain that momentum, and that is my intent,

:39:17.:39:18.

and the intent of the Government, to see that that does happen.

:39:19.:39:32.

That is the Northern Ireland Secretary.

:39:33.:39:35.

And we're joined now by the former Ulster Unionist leader and now

:39:36.:39:37.

Welcome to the Daily Politics full stop talks are ongoing to try to

:39:38.:39:45.

restore the assembly. How optimistic are you? A deal can be reached if

:39:46.:39:49.

the major parties want to do it. So far, they are not really giving

:39:50.:39:56.

terribly encouraging signals. The DUP still seems to be mired in the

:39:57.:40:01.

mess they were in in the run-up to the election. As a result partly of

:40:02.:40:07.

the heating scandal beforehand? And other things as well. At the same

:40:08.:40:12.

time, Sinn Fein is not giving encouraging signals. Adams has

:40:13.:40:16.

reverted to the sort of language she is using 20 years ago. Walking out

:40:17.:40:20.

on the secretary of state is the sort of stunt that was done 20, 25

:40:21.:40:29.

years ago. I don't think that he is in modern, grown-up politics yet.

:40:30.:40:32.

You know a lot about what is needed to de-escalate these sort of

:40:33.:40:35.

confrontation where the to macro sides cannot agree. Is Arlene Foster

:40:36.:40:45.

the sticking point? -- to macro sides cannot disagree if she went,

:40:46.:40:52.

that would be the problem solved. I am not sure they should focus

:40:53.:40:57.

clearly on that. There is a problem. It is more about her behaviour than

:40:58.:41:03.

anything else. There would be ways in which she could change that which

:41:04.:41:07.

might make a difference. I don't like the way in which Sinn Fein is

:41:08.:41:12.

saying they want to wait until the inquiry that was established to look

:41:13.:41:16.

at that heating initiative, that it reports. That might be six, nine, 12

:41:17.:41:22.

months away. They have lost faith, haven't they? They said they did not

:41:23.:41:26.

like the way she was leading proceedings at Stormont. If she does

:41:27.:41:30.

not go, I cannot see how the deadlock breaks. I'm why do people

:41:31.:41:35.

are backing themselves into corners. We don't have very much time. I am

:41:36.:41:43.

worried that people are backing themselves into corners. Is James

:41:44.:41:51.

broke and share and honest broker in this? -- Brokenshire. You have to

:41:52.:42:00.

look at the Brexit talks and the fact that eight seats are very

:42:01.:42:03.

important in any votes that are coming up. Do you think they can be

:42:04.:42:08.

seen as honest brokers? I would not worry too much about Parliamentary

:42:09.:42:12.

arithmetic. As the last few weeks have shown, the Government is coming

:42:13.:42:15.

in every time with a very large majority. While the figures might

:42:16.:42:24.

look low, the Government has a small majority. The Government is Her

:42:25.:42:31.

Majesty's government. It has its objectives and we know what they

:42:32.:42:35.

are. At the present time but they need to get devolution restored in

:42:36.:42:39.

Ireland. No problem from government in this respect. The problems are

:42:40.:42:43.

coming from the DUP and Sinn Fein. They need to change the way they are

:42:44.:42:47.

doing things. There does not seem to be a very clear how that might be

:42:48.:42:51.

done. They are backing themselves into corners. It is said that all

:42:52.:43:00.

James Nics does is waffle, waffle, waffle, and has been called a bad

:43:01.:43:05.

day for unionism. -- Brokenshire. Nobody is in the same league as

:43:06.:43:11.

Gerry Adams when it comes to waffle. It does not look promising though,

:43:12.:43:15.

does it? As I say, I hope the Secretary of State has some

:43:16.:43:22.

contingency plans. I am married to an Irishman and I should probably

:43:23.:43:27.

say nothing about waffle. What are you implying? Nothing at all. There

:43:28.:43:35.

is talk about unionist unity, coming together to talk as one. That is a

:43:36.:43:41.

distraction. Choose drawing away attention from the mess she has

:43:42.:43:46.

made. -- she is drawing away attention. Other parties do need to

:43:47.:43:51.

address the problem, a problem they have created. If you were a betting

:43:52.:43:59.

man, do think the deal will be reached in the three weeks? -- do

:44:00.:44:05.

you think? I think that will be rather tough.

:44:06.:44:16.

Iain Duncan Smith protested about the rise as well.

:44:17.:44:29.

Now, our guest of the day, Helena Morrissey, is writing a book

:44:30.:44:32.

Helena herself has clearly done all right for herself,

:44:33.:44:36.

managing to combine her role as Chief Executive of a top

:44:37.:44:38.

investment management firm with bringing up nine children.

:44:39.:44:40.

I've come back to my old school, a place I have many memories of.

:44:41.:44:49.

Now, when I was here, the internet was brand-new,

:44:50.:44:51.

no-one had mobile phones, and a certain girlband

:44:52.:44:53.

# Yo, I'll tell you what I want What I really, really want...

:44:54.:44:57.

# What you really, really, really want #.

:44:58.:45:03.

But although the Spice Girls were topping the charts in the late-'90s,

:45:04.:45:06.

women were poorly represented in public life.

:45:07.:45:09.

Less than a fifth of MPs were female.

:45:10.:45:13.

And on the boards of the biggest companies,

:45:14.:45:15.

It's no wonder some were calling for a bit more 'Girl Power'.

:45:16.:45:20.

On the face of it, these Year Elevens will be entering

:45:21.:45:27.

I want to finish college and uni, and then go into training

:45:28.:45:35.

I plan to go into Environmental Science.

:45:36.:45:38.

I hope to be doing something political.

:45:39.:45:40.

Like, maybe as a Member of Parliament.

:45:41.:45:44.

Would any of you ever see yourself as Chief Executive of a big company,

:45:45.:45:48.

or really being at the top of your game?

:45:49.:45:50.

As long as you work hard, you can get anywhere in life.

:45:51.:45:55.

Could you ever see yourself being a Director in a boardroom?

:45:56.:45:58.

But I think the most important thing is that we shouldn't start choosing

:45:59.:46:04.

women for these jobs because they're female, just to balance the pay gap

:46:05.:46:07.

or the gender barrier, whatever, we should be choosing them

:46:08.:46:10.

because they're the right person for the job.

:46:11.:46:12.

Last year, just over a third of managerial and senior

:46:13.:46:17.

A quarter of FTSE 100 companies now have a female Director.

:46:18.:46:27.

There's 196 female MPs, that's 30% of the Commons.

:46:28.:46:31.

A little less in the Lords, where 26% of peers are women.

:46:32.:46:37.

In 2016, women accounted for 28% of judges in England and Wales,

:46:38.:46:42.

but far fewer have made it to the upper echelons.

:46:43.:46:46.

Just one judge on the Supreme Court is female.

:46:47.:46:50.

There has been progress, but the progress has been patchy.

:46:51.:46:53.

There has been particularly fast and significant

:46:54.:46:54.

However, the gender pay gap then opens up as soon

:46:55.:47:04.

as women get into their 30s, where they might just be thinking

:47:05.:47:07.

There has been progress on getting more women onto boards,

:47:08.:47:16.

but most of those positions are non-exec, so they're not

:47:17.:47:18.

the people actually making the day-to-day decisions

:47:19.:47:20.

When it comes to exam results, the tables have turned.

:47:21.:47:26.

Last year, 71% of female pupils got a C or above at GCSE, compared

:47:27.:47:29.

And that trend's continuing at university, with 37% of young

:47:30.:47:38.

women entering higher education, compared to just 27% of men.

:47:39.:47:46.

It's, in fact, now boys who are becoming the disadvantaged,

:47:47.:47:49.

some argue, and we're in danger of taking our eye off

:47:50.:47:51.

Working class white boys are the bottom of the stack.

:47:52.:47:57.

They don't qualify for any special dispensation.

:47:58.:48:00.

They certainly don't qualify for any special initiatives.

:48:01.:48:03.

Because the feeling is, it's impossible to be born a white

:48:04.:48:05.

male and to be born disadvantaged, despite the facts which

:48:06.:48:08.

Do you feel like you're about to enter a world

:48:09.:48:13.

where there is still inequality for men and women?

:48:14.:48:16.

There's more of a stereotype of women being bossy.

:48:17.:48:21.

And then men, they're the strong leaders.

:48:22.:48:23.

I think that women are really seen as pretty faces too much.

:48:24.:48:29.

I think men just dismiss their capability because of how they look.

:48:30.:48:31.

We have come very far and women should be,

:48:32.:48:34.

But I think it's so important that we don't give up,

:48:35.:48:40.

to just be like - oh, yeah, that's fine, then.

:48:41.:48:42.

Well, there's certainly some young women in here prepared to continue

:48:43.:48:48.

fighting for greater equality, but have us girls already

:48:49.:48:50.

broken the glass ceiling, or is there still a lot more to do?

:48:51.:48:57.

And we're joined now by the economist Alison Wolf.

:48:58.:49:05.

First, to quote from your book, why is it a good time to be a girl?

:49:06.:49:12.

First, we have had a big Spotlight on gender equality and that is

:49:13.:49:16.

helpful in terms of raising awareness and making people think

:49:17.:49:20.

about why is that, why have we not got equality in the 21st century? It

:49:21.:49:27.

seems odd. And I think Smart businesses and organisations and

:49:28.:49:31.

people are realising with difficult problems, we need more than one type

:49:32.:49:36.

of person to solve an appetite for cognitive diversity. What is that in

:49:37.:49:43.

English? Thinking differently. I do not think men and women are

:49:44.:49:47.

different in every respect, but we do have different attributes. Women

:49:48.:49:52.

tend to be empathetic. I want a mix of perspectives. The first step was

:49:53.:49:56.

women on boards and that is a start, not the finish. And now we have got

:49:57.:50:02.

quite a lot of momentum. It is not just about having some women in a

:50:03.:50:07.

boys club or a man's world, but changing the world so it is more

:50:08.:50:11.

balanced. Alison, is it a good time to be a girl? It is a fantastic time

:50:12.:50:18.

to be an educated girl, not sure it is a fantastic time to be a girl

:50:19.:50:22.

generally. I am very depressed by the way the feminist discussion and

:50:23.:50:29.

of women focuses so much on how many women there are one boards and the

:50:30.:50:34.

High Court, compared to even two generations ago, it is staggering

:50:35.:50:40.

progress. If you look at society as a whole, you get a growing gap

:50:41.:50:44.

between the highly educated who are more like men in many ways and other

:50:45.:50:50.

women, who are overwhelmingly working in low paid service jobs. Is

:50:51.:50:55.

that true of male and female? The digitally true for female. Partly

:50:56.:51:00.

for good reasons, inequality has increased more among women than men.

:51:01.:51:07.

And the puzzle, the challenge. It, is that the upper-middle-class,

:51:08.:51:14.

careers are increasingly possible because we have a servant class

:51:15.:51:18.

which is overwhelmingly female. Doing the lesser page jobs. You have

:51:19.:51:21.

come paid to get more women on boards and have had some success, is

:51:22.:51:29.

that more symbolic than anything? It is certainly not the end, it is a

:51:30.:51:33.

start. We started with the boards because you could easily measure it

:51:34.:51:38.

and it was very visible and after the financial crisis, we did not

:51:39.:51:41.

have good oversight of companies are in the financial sector and we

:51:42.:51:50.

needed changes. The target is 30%? As a critical mass point, ultimately

:51:51.:51:55.

we want complete balance. I agree we need progress in all areas of

:51:56.:52:00.

society and not just more women in very senior roles, although we have

:52:01.:52:05.

not got parity or anywhere like that as we have in the nonexecutive

:52:06.:52:09.

roles. But the emphasis has to be now on I think having real momentum

:52:10.:52:14.

throughout. Yesterday was International Women's Day and there

:52:15.:52:18.

was a sense in some areas of people feeling we were taking a step back

:52:19.:52:22.

because we have had some developments, the election of

:52:23.:52:27.

President Trump, leaving people wondering if we have enough positive

:52:28.:52:30.

momentum. I am optimistic and I think sometimes and people is an

:52:31.:52:37.

opportunity to look again at making decisions -- and upheaval is an

:52:38.:52:41.

opportunity. But I agree with Alison. I was not surprised but

:52:42.:52:45.

depressed that International Women's Day events focused so much on people

:52:46.:52:50.

like us, to be brutal. I am not convinced putting an Uxbridge

:52:51.:52:54.

educated metropolitan female on a board is such a change from an

:52:55.:53:00.

Uxbridge educated male on the board. I feel we always will be more aware

:53:01.:53:04.

of our surroundings and the best thing that could happen for women is

:53:05.:53:11.

for advantage and successful women and for women to be more aware of

:53:12.:53:15.

what is happening to people in other parts of society. I want to

:53:16.:53:19.

emphasise this because what is happening in our economy is

:53:20.:53:24.

increasingly shift work, part-time work, often at very difficult hours.

:53:25.:53:31.

And they are not people who can put children in nine to five daycare,

:53:32.:53:37.

people who can afford nannies, more likely they will be nannies. I just

:53:38.:53:42.

feel it is predictable and depressing that those who have done

:53:43.:53:48.

very well seem to be very much concerned with how to make things

:53:49.:53:55.

even better for people like us. What about replacing a male metropolitan

:53:56.:53:58.

elite with a female metropolitan elite? That is not the end game,

:53:59.:54:03.

obviously. I think we did see some of that to begin with and people

:54:04.:54:08.

felt it was dropped on, we have women on our board, we don't have to

:54:09.:54:12.

do something around the rest of the population. But I want to say how

:54:13.:54:17.

generous with their time a lot of women in senior roles are about

:54:18.:54:22.

speaking in schools, reaching out and being a role melt all. We cannot

:54:23.:54:26.

fix every problem, but you have to start somewhere and I feel we are

:54:27.:54:30.

trying to show we can make a positive impact, it is not one thing

:54:31.:54:36.

or the other. A lot of what you say is that the question of gender

:54:37.:54:41.

inequality is inextricably intertwined with our traditional

:54:42.:54:46.

class inequality. I think it is, I absolutely think it is, but I also

:54:47.:54:52.

think for many women, life has in some ways become harder and many

:54:53.:54:55.

would like to be in families where there could be a breadwinner when

:54:56.:55:00.

the children are small, instead of being in Waitrose getting every

:55:01.:55:03.

shift they can at 10:30 p.m.. Thank you, very interesting.

:55:04.:55:07.

Now, this programme obviously takes its politics very seriously,

:55:08.:55:09.

but not all politicians share our high-minded approach,

:55:10.:55:11.

and apparently think it's a bit of a laughing matter.

:55:12.:55:14.

So, here, for your disapproval, some laughing politicians,

:55:15.:55:16.

starting with Theresa May at PMQs yesterday.

:55:17.:55:21.

And we're joined now by the Times sketchwriter Patrick Kidd

:55:22.:56:06.

and the Conservative MP Michael Fabricant.

:56:07.:56:11.

Welcome, both. You have two laugh at some stage in politics? If you sit

:56:12.:56:19.

in the House of Commons as I do religiously, you have to laugh or

:56:20.:56:23.

you would go mad. Or cry! Theresa May really was throwing herself into

:56:24.:56:29.

that. What was the hilarity about? It was a natural reaction, like

:56:30.:56:33.

watching a rhinoceros roller-skate Philip Hammond is telling jokes! The

:56:34.:56:37.

shoulders went like a vulture in the jungle. It was not anything that had

:56:38.:56:43.

been said to her, Jeremy Corbyn was asking a question about local

:56:44.:56:46.

government Finance and clearly somebody whispered to her and that

:56:47.:56:51.

set her off. Did it looks slightly inappropriate? We saw the contrast

:56:52.:56:54.

with Jeremy Corbyn, a serious matter, the Budget. You have never

:56:55.:57:01.

seen Jeremy Corbyn smile, let alone laugh. I think he has smiled. He has

:57:02.:57:07.

not much to laugh about but I am not going to be party political! Me,

:57:08.:57:12.

party political? It is always appropriate to laugh and smile and

:57:13.:57:16.

show your humanity and Theresa May comes over very well doing that. But

:57:17.:57:25.

does it look great to have an outbreak of hysterics? Contextually,

:57:26.:57:28.

it seems odd what happened yesterday. I do agree we need

:57:29.:57:33.

politicians with a human side and with social media. The idea of

:57:34.:57:36.

everybody walking around Po faced and not caught out at any moment

:57:37.:57:41.

enjoying themselves, we would not want that either, so put them a bit

:57:42.:57:46.

of slack. Do you inject humour into the boardroom? Yes, that is

:57:47.:57:49.

essential, I think. In all walks of life. There are serious matters to

:57:50.:57:57.

attend to, but also, if you are enjoying yourself, you tend to be

:57:58.:58:02.

having better ideas. Not a lot of chuckles in asset management, let's

:58:03.:58:06.

be honest! I am struggling to think of a good joke! Wendy Duet tell your

:58:07.:58:12.

best joke and did you enjoy Philip Hammond's jokes? Mine was forced, I

:58:13.:58:18.

wanted to show they were jolly. I did the shoulders as well. If you do

:58:19.:58:23.

not find it funny, you do that and people think you are doing. Theresa

:58:24.:58:28.

May, it is very nerve-racking getting these questions and some of

:58:29.:58:32.

them you know in advance and others you do not. I have not done my

:58:33.:58:37.

homework, but not many PMQs she has done. At the moment, it is sometimes

:58:38.:58:43.

laughter of relief. What about the NIC announcements, were they funny?

:58:44.:58:50.

I thought they were interesting. It was Philip's jokes. Who is there?

:58:51.:58:57.

Philip the coffers, we need your money! You wonder what was said to

:58:58.:59:03.

her, David Cameron was laughing once and somebody had made a joke about

:59:04.:59:08.

Jeremy Corbyn, saying, he is good, isn't he? Yes, that is why I voted

:59:09.:59:10.

for him. I will be back tomorrow with a range

:59:11.:59:25.

of guests. And I will be back here tomorrow. Goodbye!

:59:26.:59:43.

The very embodiment of the England that must emerge.

:59:44.:59:47.

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