10/03/2017 Daily Politics


10/03/2017

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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:00.:00:40.

Theresa May backs her Chancellor on his National Insurance hike

:00:41.:00:44.

for the self-employed but delays legislation for the change

:00:45.:00:48.

So has the PM managed to kill off a backbench rebellion?

:00:49.:00:54.

European leaders continue their summit in Brussels without Mrs May.

:00:55.:00:57.

We'll get the latest from the meeting of the EU27

:00:58.:01:01.

as they discuss the European Union's future post-Brexit.

:01:02.:01:06.

MPs and peers should move out of parliament for six years to allow

:01:07.:01:11.

urgent repairs costing ?4 billion to take place, that's the view

:01:12.:01:15.

We'll hear from its chair, Meg Hillier, and an

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And, tax returns, lordly sackings and budget numbers -

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we look back on the political week, in just 60 seconds.

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All that in the next hour and with us for the duration

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Jenni Russell who writes for the Times, and Iain Martin,

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So, just 24 hours after the budget, Theresa May signals the possibility

:01:44.:01:58.

of a re-think on Philip Hammond's national insurance increase.

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We'll examine the options open to the Chancellor in just a moment.

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First though, David Cameron finds himself in the thick of it

:02:10.:02:15.

with comments he seems to have made while chatting to the Defence

:02:16.:02:19.

Eagle-eyed ITV correspondent Chris Ship spotted the former

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Prime Minister talking to Mr Fallon at yesterday's memorial service

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for members of the armed services in Horse Guards Parade in central

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Amateur lip-readers suggested Mr Cameron may have been commenting

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on Philip Hammond's decision to break the Conservative's

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manifesto commitment not to raise national insurance.

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So can we know for certain what David Cameron was saying?

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We're joined now by Tina Lannin, a forensic lip

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And you've brought Bailey along as well? I have. Fantastic. I should

:02:58.:03:09.

have brought iris Bailey along and they could have met. Anyway, let me

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just ask you this - how accurate, before we look at it, is

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lip-reading? It really does depend on the ability of the lip reader to

:03:25.:03:28.

pick up what he's saying, the fluency of the language and also on

:03:29.:03:35.

the quality of the TV clip, whether it's good quality and whether the

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camera goes away from the speaker, whether the camera is shaky, blurry,

:03:41.:03:43.

all that kind of thing. That would add to the difficulty if it was. But

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if the quality is reasonably good, and we'll see it in a minute, a

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professional lip-reader like yourself, we'd have a fair idea of

:03:54.:03:57.

what was being said? Yes, I would have a fairly good idea. Somebody

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who had been lip-reading everybody around them every day of their life,

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you'll have a fairly good idea and I rely on lip-reading and I'm

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lip-reading you now, I'm totally deaf but I can understand what you

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are saying because I'm lip-reading. My lip-reading skills are quite

:04:16.:04:19.

accurate. I would certainly say that. We are going to get your

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professional opinion in a minute. We have had a number of amateur

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opinions already. Can anyone lip read? I would have thought it's

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really a skill, is it not? It is a skill, it's an art and everybody can

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lip read to some extent but it's a question of how good you are and

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that only comes with practise. I'm told we have got the best with

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you, so let's have a look at the clip again and then we'll get your

:04:47.:04:50.

expert opinion. Let's see what David Cameron's saying.

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Tina, I would say that was pretty good quality there, not blurry, the

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camera's not shaking, it's pretty good broadcast TV qualities,

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slightly in the distance. So, in your professional opinion, what did

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Mr Cameron say? I interpret him by saying breaking the manifesto

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promise, how stupid can you get. So he did say, breaking a manifesto

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promise, how stupid can you get? Yes. Right. Well, we thank you. Give

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us your reaction to this professional authentication. First

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of all, I'm amazed because I would look at that and wouldn't have a

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clue, I would say it was just complaining about the weather. It

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was a silly promise in the first place and it was the one that he

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made. He made it, not thinking that his Government would ever have to

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stand by it because he didn't expect to win the last majority with an

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election and therefore be responsible for the policies that

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followed. But they didn't tell us that at the time. For voters, a

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promise is a promise. But it's a bit much for him to be the person

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criticising. He thought he'd be part of a coalition. Theresa May is bound

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by a promise that she didn't make. Nevertheless, I do think it was very

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foolish of her Government to think that you could get away. Without the

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big row that we have seen? But not eeven acknowledge that you are

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breaking it, pretend it wasn't in the pledge and to look as though you

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are splitting hairs. That's what didn't work, that's what made people

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feel that they were dancing on the head of a pin. There's something

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magnificent about that clip, it still looks as though Cameron is in

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charge. He's summoning over the Defence Secretary saying, now look

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here Fallon, what's all this rubbish. That's amusing. I think

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Cameron's right to be angry. I think it's still a bit of a puzzle as to

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what on earth the Government thought they were doing. I mean, you can

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take the view that it's a stupid pledge, I understand that, and you

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can take a wider view to rule out any income tax rises and national

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insurance to freeze fuel duty. It seems in perpetuity, you are really

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eroding the tax base. The point on trust is, they may have not once,

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not twice, not thrice, but four times in this manifesto... And they

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legislated on it. They excluded the self-employed from the legislation

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but it looked as if they were putting it absolutely in a solid

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form and it couldn't be taken away. The difficulty for this, for the

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Government, is that this is a perfect storm really, in the fact

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that it's not one group, the self-employed, but the

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self-employed, the upper end who're paid via dividends, that runs from

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white van driver and plumbers all the way through the economy at every

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salary level so it's extraordinary that a Tory Chancellor didn't see

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this. Are we being fair to Mr Cameron in the sense that we are

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reading his lips from a distance, he's having a private conversation,

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the cameras are on him. If you are in the public eye, we have to just

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accept this, do we? You have to accept it. I believe Tina, but the

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wider issue here is one about trust. In an era of alternative facts,

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politicians have got to be trustworthy and they have to learn

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that if you say something to the public, you can't wriggle out of it.

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You have to be frank about why you are breaking a promise or you just

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build cynicism. We showed you the clip again there. Tina, you have

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settled one of the controversies of the week, we are very grateful to

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you and Bailey for coming in. Bye-bye, see you soon, Bailey.

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This row over the Government's plans to raise the rate of Class 4

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National Insurance contributions is now in its third day.

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Let's remind ourselves what's been happening.

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In his budget speech on Wednesday, Philip Hammond said the changes

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are necessary because the current lower rate of National Insurance

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"undermines the fairness of the tax system".

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But that left Tory MPs queuing up to criticise the government's plans.

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Conservative MP Stephen McPartland said on this programme yesterday.

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"We need to get a U-turn and we need one quickly."

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Guto Bebb, a minister in the Wales Office

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But Matthew Taylor, the former adviser to Tony Blair,

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Mr Taylor is currently carrying out a government review looking at how

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the state treats self-employed people and other issues.

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Theresa May signalled last night that she and the Government

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But Labour weren't pleased with that.

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The Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell said Theresa May should.

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Let's have a look at what Theresa May said last night,

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speaking at a press conference in Brussels.

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And I think it is fair to close the gap in contributions between two

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people doing the same work and using the same public

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services to make the same contribution to wider society.

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And then I think the final question you ask is is it progressive?

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And the changes that will be built through on NICS

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to Class 2 and Class 4, taken together, under those,

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the lowest paid self-employed workers will be better off and half

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the revenues raised will be paid by the best off, by the wealthiest.

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We've been joined from Gloucester by the Conservative MP Neil Carmichael.

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And in the studio by the director of the Resolution

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Michael, the Prime Minister says she's in listening mode, so what do

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you want to tell her? I first of all think it's absolutely

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necessary for us to raise as much tax as we possibly can. This is the

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time of Brexit and we are going to be needing extra money in the

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long-term. The second point is, we've got to, however, make sure our

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entrepreneurs, our consultants, those people who're basically

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self-employed feel that the risks they take are ones which the

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Government are going to acknowledge. I think that's part of a tailoring

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review. What do you want to tell her on this - that's very general, I

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asked you a specific question. Well, what I would say is that I think the

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delay towards the autumn is wise. I think that tapering would be

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appropriate because I think that there will be a group, as far as I

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can see from the figures, that are going to be effectively asked to pay

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a sizeable chunk. Which group would that be? That would be the high

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earner chunk. The higher earnings who are employed are paying high

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national insurance at the moment, so if you look at a management

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consultant on ?52,000 a year, they would pay another ?600 or so. Yes.

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On national insurance contributions a year, they are on over ?50,000 a

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wouldn't be paying anything like the national insurance that an employee

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would pay, particularly when you add in the employee contribution? But

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you have to balance what a self-employed person isn't getting

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through the benefits system or risk to his position or her position if

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things went wrong. You've also got to factor in things like business

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rates which might actually be a problem too. Everybody is paying

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business rates. But the biggest amount of money in this country goes

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on the Health Service and social care and welfare, if you are

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self-employed, last time I looked you were entitled to the NHS. Yes.

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And to social care, such as there is in this country these days, so why

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shouldn't you pay a bit more? And I thought you were against them paying

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more, which side of the fence are you on? I'm on the side of the fence

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which in the long run we have to raise more revenue... You've said

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all that, but what do you want us to do on NICS? What do you want the got

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to do, what should the country be doing on national insurance What I

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want the Government to be doing on national insurance is delaying a

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decision which I think it's effectively said because we are not

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voting on this until the awe Tim, quite rightly, between thousand and

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then, we need a rebust look at the figures so that we can actually say

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to those people affected that this is not going to be as bad as is

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currently predicted -- autumn. So in other words there should be some

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changes made in the next six months. But unless it's some kind of

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compromise and, if your words, if it's not as bad as was outlined on

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Wednesday, whatever compromise, if national insurance is to rise, it's

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a breach of your manifesto commitment. It may not be as bad a

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breach but it's still a breach? Well, you know, we said in the

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manifesto we are going to stay in the single market and that's plainly

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not going to happen, so... But you thought you were going to win the

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referendum to remain too so things did change there. What's changed to

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force national insurance contributions up? The politics have

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changed, the economics have changed. We voted to leave the European

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Union. That's going to have an impact on our membership of the

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single market by simply saying we are not going to be in it. That's

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clearly on the cards. So that is something which is at variance with

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the manifesto and this too is add variance with the manifesto.

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Actually for the same reason, that we are needing to find more money to

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prepare a cushion for whilst we prepare to leave the European Union.

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They're linked. Stick with us, you will get a chance to sort out your

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ear piece too. We are spending ?400 million gives

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the self-employed a tax cut, abolishing class 2, the flat rate,

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?150 a year that all self-employed pay. That is why the losers are only

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over ?16,000. It's not about raising money. This is about saying we have

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a fundamental problem in the tax system and we need to keep up with

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the world of world which is working -- world of work. The key thing you

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you were talking about, about the people being entitled to use the NHS

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and the social care, the real issue is the state pension. Historically,

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the reason why people pay lower national insurance, the

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self-employed, is they used to get a better pension. That has been ended.

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They get the same pension as employees and, as a result, the gap

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on the national insurance needs to be closed.

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Right, but it may be true, as your foundation, I think it's been said

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too, that if you are earning less than ?16,000, you are unaffected by

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this. Some people will be better off. The real increase, the example

:17:26.:17:33.

of the management consultant that I gave, they're in the top 50% of

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households, but there are a group of people who'll be paying more,

:17:38.:17:45.

earning between ?16,000 and ?25-?26,000 a year, but they are the

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just about managing classes, so why put any extra burden on them since

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your own foundation's said the living standards are now going to be

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squeezed even without this. Why put a further burden on them no matter

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how small? That is a good point, Andrew. What you are getting at

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there... What is the answer? I'll come to it. Policies are difficult.

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They have pros and cons, you have probably already done them. If tax

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rises in particular, unless you are a saint, you don't want to

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particularly have any less money in your pocket, so would I ideally like

:18:22.:18:26.

a policy that somehow had a fairer tax system between self-employed and

:18:27.:18:30.

employees and didn't lead to any extra money being taken on the

:18:31.:18:33.

earnings and salaries you are talking about - yes. Is that

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possible in the real world and is it responsible for people who want a

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better country to ignore those ambiguities - no. For three days,

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your party, your government, has had a complete kicking, even in the Tory

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press, is it worth it for another ?200 million a year. That's not even

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a rounding error? I think it's worth having the debates. I said is it

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worth it for ?200 million. The Chancellor will drop that down the

:19:03.:19:05.

back of the sofa on a Friday afternoon. Well, you say that to a

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school struggling to pay an extra teacher and you would think, well

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?200 million will go some distance. It would help make sure that the

:19:14.:19:18.

national funding formula had a better floor than currently is

:19:19.:19:22.

projected and so on. So ?200 million is... It's worth all this political

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pain then? Well, I think what we have to do is take the whole budget

:19:27.:19:30.

together, you know. This is more than just this issue about national

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insurance contributions. It's about actually rebalancing the economy

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towards being more productive and so on, so that does matter. The key

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point about the fairness angle is still a relevant one. We have to

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bear in mind that the employment patterns are changing and the

:19:47.:19:49.

taxation system really has to reflect that. But you are a Tory,

:19:50.:19:53.

you are meant to be in favour of people being self-employed and

:19:54.:19:56.

entrepreneurial and not dependent on the state. Why is it the policy of a

:19:57.:20:00.

Tory Government to say, you are going to have to pay more tax in the

:20:01.:20:06.

form of national insurance, but in return the state will give you more

:20:07.:20:11.

benefits. Isn't that what the Labour Party is meant to believe? Well,

:20:12.:20:17.

those benefits are around sort of conditions if you fell out of your

:20:18.:20:21.

position as a self-employed person. I think that's fair to recognise

:20:22.:20:25.

that there are risks there. You've actually already answered your own

:20:26.:20:28.

question because you... That doesn't happen very often... The more

:20:29.:20:33.

youern, the more you'll pay, because down at the ?16,000 level you

:20:34.:20:36.

wouldn't pay at all and you would benefit. One more thing because you

:20:37.:20:40.

are struggling with that ear piece, and I'm grateful for you sticking

:20:41.:20:44.

with it, but let me ask you one more thing. I'm still not clear what you

:20:45.:20:49.

want to Government to do compared to what the Chancellor announced and we

:20:50.:20:53.

are going to have until autumn to decide that, but do you get the

:20:54.:20:57.

sense there is compromise in the air that what the Chancellor announced

:20:58.:21:00.

will not in the end be what is legislated for in the autumn? I

:21:01.:21:06.

think there's scope for compromise, that's helpful. That's what we need.

:21:07.:21:11.

This is about tapering and levels and we have some discussions, six

:21:12.:21:14.

months in order to have them, the argument is on the table. The

:21:15.:21:18.

principle is one we'll salute. The Prime Minister said that last night.

:21:19.:21:21.

It's just a question of how we do it. I think that is what the

:21:22.:21:24.

discussions will be around during the course of the period up to and

:21:25.:21:29.

including the final vote when this is decided in the autumn. Let me try

:21:30.:21:34.

one more time with you - what would you like the Government to do to

:21:35.:21:38.

make this acceptable to you and some of your colleagues? Make absolutely

:21:39.:21:45.

clear what self-employed people will be benefitting from if changes are

:21:46.:21:49.

made in the Taylor review and doeth we don't know exactly what they are

:21:50.:21:52.

but that's an important aspect. This is two sides of the same coin. It's

:21:53.:21:55.

paying for something but knowing what you are going to get in return

:21:56.:21:59.

so there needs be clarity there and there isn't any clarity really at

:22:00.:22:04.

the moment. Also this issue about tapering, that's an important word

:22:05.:22:07.

in this conversation. I don't know what it means though in this

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context. What it means is that we'll probably have a situation where the

:22:13.:22:16.

introduction of this scheme was more gradual and less... But it is

:22:17.:22:21.

tapered at the moment, it's only 1% starting next year then another 1%

:22:22.:22:26.

starting the year after that, it's a gradual introduction. That's why I'm

:22:27.:22:30.

everysizing there should be more discussion about that. More

:22:31.:22:36.

tapering? Yes, I think so. -- emphasising. Anyway, I'm sure we'll

:22:37.:22:43.

discuss more about this as the summer comes about. I can hardly

:22:44.:22:47.

wait! Plenty to talk about. Thank you very much! Thank you and thank

:22:48.:22:51.

you again for dealing with that pesky ear piece that you've got

:22:52.:23:01.

there! What do you think of this? I think Torsten Bell should be

:23:02.:23:08.

advising more on this. Most people think they work is unpredictable and

:23:09.:23:12.

they don't get holiday pay or sick pay. There seems to be radical

:23:13.:23:17.

disadvantages and it seems to be radically unfair to say your life is

:23:18.:23:23.

the same as a working person. So his argument about saying you are

:23:24.:23:25.

getting an equal state pension now and you never had that before is a

:23:26.:23:29.

much more powerful argument than anything else that has been put

:23:30.:23:33.

forward? Iain We should acknowledge there is a bias on the part of

:23:34.:23:37.

newspaper columnists and freelance journalists. Disproportionate... Who

:23:38.:23:43.

is going to speak up for the self-employed? To the barricades.

:23:44.:23:59.

There was an interesting thing the Chancellor said in the budget about

:24:00.:24:04.

how technology is reshaping the economy and he says he's going to

:24:05.:24:09.

come back to it. This would have been almost fine if he'd said let's

:24:10.:24:15.

have a proper review of how employment is structured, headed not

:24:16.:24:18.

by someone like Matthew Taylor with instincts always to raise taxation.

:24:19.:24:22.

You never know... I don't think that's fair. The answer, heaven

:24:23.:24:29.

know, mite come back to reduce the national insurance of the employed

:24:30.:24:33.

and maybe spend a little less and borrow a little less. Balancing the

:24:34.:24:41.

budget into the 2030s. Yes. It's already been kicked sideways, so why

:24:42.:24:46.

not? ! It's become very complicated. Life is complicated. But our tax

:24:47.:24:54.

system is complicated. The tax guide is taller than you now and you are

:24:55.:25:00.

quite tall. Why do we have national insurance, it's just income tax by

:25:01.:25:04.

another name and yet there's no talk any more among policy-makers at the

:25:05.:25:08.

top level of just rolling the two together and simplifying things It's

:25:09.:25:12.

not exactly the same in one big way. You pay income tax but you don't pay

:25:13.:25:17.

national insurance. You look like you're... You are wasted in the

:25:18.:25:23.

resolution foundation, you should be in the diplomatic corps! But you

:25:24.:25:27.

would be paying a lot more money. I understand that. That may be the

:25:28.:25:31.

case, but you would have to then live with some consequences. The

:25:32.:25:35.

over 65s in real terms are doing much better than people in their 20s

:25:36.:25:39.

and 30s at the moment. It's an unnecessary complication and you

:25:40.:25:42.

could come up with a formula which rolled the two together. It's not a

:25:43.:25:47.

hypothecating tax any more. George Osborne asked the office for similar

:25:48.:25:50.

police officercation, which was designed for reasons you are

:25:51.:25:52.

highlighting. They did a report, they say it could be done,

:25:53.:25:56.

complicated ways of doing it and the Government said no, thank you, have

:25:57.:26:01.

you met the over 60s. So we have given them a lot, a triple lot as

:26:02.:26:08.

well -- a triple lock. We can help deal with the self-employed. Can I

:26:09.:26:12.

ask a question, do you have any idea how much you would raise if you

:26:13.:26:16.

taxed people like Andrew, the over 65s. Andrew would raise a lot of

:26:17.:26:24.

money! That's very easy to find out. Would it be more than ?200 million

:26:25.:26:29.

do you think? Oh, billions! There we are, we have solved the problem. One

:26:30.:26:34.

billion from Andrew and billions from the rest of the population.

:26:35.:26:38.

Thank you for coming in and we'll see you again around 2026 when

:26:39.:26:42.

you'll probably be getting your pension. Look forward to it. And the

:26:43.:26:47.

taxes will have gone up. I'll be speaking to Matthew Taylor on the

:26:48.:26:51.

Sunday Politics this Sunday on this very issue and we'll look at some of

:26:52.:26:56.

the principles behind this problem of how do you tax the self-employed,

:26:57.:27:03.

indeed, how do you stop the tax base from eroding with the decade coming

:27:04.:27:08.

up when the demands on health, social care and other things are

:27:09.:27:10.

going to be huge. Today EU leaders are meeting

:27:11.:27:12.

in Brussels in the new Europa But the question is what has that

:27:13.:27:17.

building been nicknamed? At the end of the show,

:27:18.:27:21.

Iain and Jenni will give So, the EU summit in Brussels

:27:22.:27:33.

continues today without Theresa May. The remaining 27 leaders are due

:27:34.:27:41.

to discuss the future development Our correspondent Ben Wright joins

:27:42.:27:46.

us now from Brussels. Ben, Mrs May's not there, I assume

:27:47.:28:06.

Brexit is not high up the discussions at the moment because

:28:07.:28:10.

Article 50 hasn't been triggered. So what are they talking about? Well, I

:28:11.:28:16.

think there's party planning going on this morning, the 27 sitting

:28:17.:28:20.

around working out how this big event they're planning for the 25th

:28:21.:28:24.

in Italy is going to work which they want to look like a huge show of

:28:25.:28:30.

unity by the European Union to mark 60 years since the Treaty of Rome

:28:31.:28:33.

was signed. So they'll be talking about that today. They'll be talking

:28:34.:28:38.

about recent plans put forward by the European Commission President

:28:39.:28:41.

Jean-Claude Juncker for the ten year plan. Various option force the

:28:42.:28:45.

future direction of the EU. And I imagine too, oh to be in that room,

:28:46.:28:49.

I mean they'll probably be talking about Brexit. They are not talking

:28:50.:28:53.

about negotiations in public, they won't do that until Article 50 is

:28:54.:28:57.

triggered, but once Theresa May does that and writes her letter to the

:28:58.:29:03.

European Council, then the EU 27 then have to work out their

:29:04.:29:06.

negotiating mandate. How they are going to approach these talks and

:29:07.:29:09.

those talks have been going on behind-the-scenes and I'm sure they

:29:10.:29:12.

are touching on it this morning. Is there a sense of you covering a

:29:13.:29:20.

Marie Antoinette party there, as you talk about that and Geert wilders is

:29:21.:29:25.

against the EU on the hard right, marine Le Pen is doing far better

:29:26.:29:30.

than her father, will almost certainly be in the next round of

:29:31.:29:34.

the French elections and four out of five big parties are against the

:29:35.:29:38.

euro. Do they ever think about any of that?

:29:39.:29:42.

Thoreau Trump into the mix as well. The great American ally of the EU,

:29:43.:29:50.

the USA, has decidedly gone wobbly since Donald Trump entered the White

:29:51.:29:53.

House. Their access then shall challenges wherever you look. --

:29:54.:30:01.

existential challenges. I think they got to get the tone of the party

:30:02.:30:04.

quite right which is why they don't want Theresa May to trigger Brexit

:30:05.:30:07.

in the immediate days before all the media days after this big event in

:30:08.:30:12.

Rome and that has been made quite clear. To the British government.

:30:13.:30:18.

Look, they know that this is a very difficult time for the European

:30:19.:30:21.

Union. Is no getting around that at all. And that will colour their

:30:22.:30:27.

approach to Brexit. People around here, you hear them saying it's all

:30:28.:30:30.

very well for the UK to keep saying they would get the best deal for

:30:31.:30:33.

Britain but people here are saying they would get the best deal for the

:30:34.:30:36.

European Union and one which acts as a warning to others not to leave the

:30:37.:30:41.

club. In the absence of specific about what the European Union are

:30:42.:30:43.

going to put on the table, that's what you have to go on. But we don't

:30:44.:30:49.

know if there is agreement among the 27 about what the best deal for the

:30:50.:30:54.

remaining European Union would mean. We don't know if the polls agree

:30:55.:30:58.

with the French, in fact, we're pretty sure they don't. We don't

:30:59.:31:03.

know what Emmanuel Macron's idea would be, or Mr Schultz, if he was

:31:04.:31:11.

to become the Chancellor. I don't know what a good deal would look

:31:12.:31:18.

like for all 27 to agree on. You are absolutely right, we also hear that

:31:19.:31:22.

Germany is certainly trying to restrain countries who want this to

:31:23.:31:28.

be sort of a process of punishment for the UK. The Germans are very

:31:29.:31:30.

worried about what might happen to the City of London if there is a

:31:31.:31:35.

punitive approach taken on the question of financial services for

:31:36.:31:38.

instance, but each country has different interests which is why

:31:39.:31:41.

there is a suspicion here that the EU, sorry the UK may try to divide

:31:42.:31:47.

and rule a bit when negotiations begin. And they think the EU was

:31:48.:31:51.

very aware of that and at the moment is stressing they are going to go

:31:52.:31:55.

into this as one united bloc. Certainly after the Malta summit all

:31:56.:31:59.

EU leaders were stressing that they would be negotiating as a bloc and

:32:00.:32:04.

the UK would not be able to peel off individual countries and played to

:32:05.:32:08.

individual interests. One final thing, coming out of negotiators

:32:09.:32:14.

negotiating as a bloc. Some in the British government are saying that

:32:15.:32:18.

once Article 50 is triggered, a deal, not much will happen, because

:32:19.:32:23.

of all the elections I mentioned, but a deal on reciprocal rights will

:32:24.:32:28.

be done quickly for EU nationals here and UK nationals in the rest of

:32:29.:32:32.

the EU. And that will partly be done to keep Eastern Europe on board and

:32:33.:32:36.

they do think that that will happen quickly, but then there will be a

:32:37.:32:40.

hiatus as the French elections get underway followed by the others. Is

:32:41.:32:45.

there any indication about where you are that the EU may be on board for

:32:46.:32:52.

this too? Look, not in concrete terms, but I think it would make

:32:53.:32:56.

sense. There is an eagerness in the UK to get this done and they went

:32:57.:33:01.

conceded outside the formal negotiations and I think the feeling

:33:02.:33:05.

is within the EU the same approach has to be taken so it could well be

:33:06.:33:08.

that has taken off the table quickly and then the EU knuckles down and

:33:09.:33:13.

work out how it's going to negotiate but you are right. I think we can

:33:14.:33:18.

expect a lag until proper negotiations begin. We've got to

:33:19.:33:22.

expect to get the elections out of way first. Until the summer,

:33:23.:33:27.

actually. There was a tussle going on here between the council, the

:33:28.:33:31.

leaders, and the commission about the priorities and certainly the

:33:32.:33:36.

feeling of the commission want this issue around money sorted very early

:33:37.:33:41.

on. They think there is this bill, the numbers are disputed, perhaps,

:33:42.:33:44.

and it needs to be settled before you can move onto other aspects of a

:33:45.:33:48.

negotiation including a possible parallel talks on traditional trade

:33:49.:33:52.

agreement. What's going to be fascinating of the next few weeks is

:33:53.:33:55.

trying to work out who is winning that fight between the institutions

:33:56.:33:59.

in the European Union as they approach this negotiation. Thank you

:34:00.:34:02.

very much, good to talk to you in Brussels. Ben finishes on what is

:34:03.:34:06.

going to be putting the EU reciprocal rights to one side and

:34:07.:34:12.

the British government has become confident it can do a good deal on

:34:13.:34:16.

that, but then nothing else. There is then, we've done that, on the

:34:17.:34:22.

other hand, this demand between the Europeans saying you have got to

:34:23.:34:26.

saddle the Brexit divorce bill before we talk about free trade. If

:34:27.:34:30.

you speak to our government is a deal-breaker and they won't do that.

:34:31.:34:33.

They want the two things to go in parallel. At the same time, there's

:34:34.:34:38.

no way the British government will get itself into a situation where it

:34:39.:34:44.

says how much do you want? Call it 30, said Lon 45, dear is a large

:34:45.:34:48.

cheque and let's talk about future terms. It's a nonstarter. The reason

:34:49.:34:55.

the government has talked in much blunter terms about no deal being

:34:56.:35:00.

better than a bad deal, preparing people for the possibility of hard

:35:01.:35:06.

Brexit, the reality is, which the analysis illustrator, if it was a

:35:07.:35:09.

straightforward deal between Germany and the UK, that's not

:35:10.:35:15.

straightforward but much easier to envisage how such a deal could be

:35:16.:35:20.

concluded. The Germans are terrified of the eurozone being disrupted. The

:35:21.:35:25.

eurozone debt machine, 75% of it, is run out of London, so they want...

:35:26.:35:30.

They essentially don't want the Eurozone settlements disturbed at

:35:31.:35:36.

least not in the short term, but it becomes apparent from the European

:35:37.:35:39.

Parliament is saying that even if you get a deal like that done, and

:35:40.:35:45.

Germany and Britain, but two largest competitors agree, it can go to the

:35:46.:35:48.

European Parliament and be voted down, so I think the government have

:35:49.:35:53.

consciously prepared people for the possibility of chaos on the

:35:54.:35:59.

continent and a deal, even if it agreed, somehow being vetoed. The

:36:00.:36:05.

way ahead is as clear as mud. Yes, life in politics is, located but we

:36:06.:36:09.

haven't seen anything yet with the interests of all institutions and

:36:10.:36:14.

the 27 nations all quarrelling with one another and, of course, if you

:36:15.:36:17.

turn around to the EU and say we're not interested in settling the bill,

:36:18.:36:21.

much of it for the pensions of British people who have worked in

:36:22.:36:25.

the EU and much of it is also for the costs of ongoing EU programmes

:36:26.:36:28.

in Britain which won't wrap up overnight... That we could deal

:36:29.:36:34.

with. We don't know about the pensions. It will be put at the

:36:35.:36:37.

difficult for a government to agree to a massive bill for pensions for

:36:38.:36:40.

EU bureaucrats whose pensions are three times the average wages in

:36:41.:36:45.

Britain. I'm not saying it's not difficult but if you're standing

:36:46.:36:48.

firm and saying we're not going to cooperate, than the one thing you

:36:49.:36:51.

did from those 27 nations is the feeling that we are not just an

:36:52.:36:55.

almighty irritant that is delaying everything they want to do with the

:36:56.:37:00.

EU over the next couple of years. I think it is accepted that we will

:37:01.:37:05.

have to settle, but in what order it happens? What's impossible to

:37:06.:37:11.

envisage is the government paying the money before it has any idea

:37:12.:37:15.

what the deal is. The money will become a Thorogood payment to access

:37:16.:37:23.

payment to EU access -- sorry but payment. There's a difference

:37:24.:37:28.

between three years, for his contribution from the UK which

:37:29.:37:33.

settles the programmes we got into before the referendum. A big

:37:34.:37:36.

difference between that and an ongoing payment. I think that is

:37:37.:37:42.

probably, year after year, payments something Tory backbenchers would

:37:43.:37:43.

not stomach. Now it has asbestos, leaks,

:37:44.:37:45.

fraying electrical cables and the whole place is at high risk

:37:46.:37:51.

of a catastrophic failure. No, I'm not talking about the Daily

:37:52.:37:55.

Politics studio but rather, that other World Heritage Site,

:37:56.:37:58.

the Palace of Westminster, home Now today the Public Accounts

:37:59.:38:00.

Committee has said the Palace should be vacated while urgent restoration

:38:01.:38:13.

work is carried out. Parliament's spending watchdog

:38:14.:38:15.

argues that moving MPs and peers down the road rather than keeping

:38:16.:38:17.

them on site during a renovation is the most economic

:38:18.:38:20.

and efficient option. The Public Accounts Committee

:38:21.:38:24.

is backing a call by a joint parliamentary committee for a full

:38:25.:38:27.

decant of the palace, meaning it would be closed for six

:38:28.:38:29.

years while work is carried out. This option, which would see MPs

:38:30.:38:41.

move into a temporary debating chamber in the Department of Health

:38:42.:38:44.

and peers to the QE2 conference centre, would

:38:45.:38:47.

cost around ?4 billion. A partial decant -

:38:48.:38:57.

vacating first the Commons and then the Lords -

:38:58.:39:01.

would take 11 years and add approximately

:39:02.:39:04.

?500 million to the cost. While keeping everyone on site

:39:05.:39:13.

during the repairs would mean it was 32 years before

:39:14.:39:19.

the work was completed. The PAC pointed out that also

:39:20.:39:21.

between ?50 million and ?60 million was already being spent

:39:22.:39:26.

on maintaining the building every year and urged parliamentarians

:39:27.:39:29.

to have a vote on the options sooner rather than later, pointing out that

:39:30.:39:33.

further delays may add up to ?85 million a year to the bill

:39:34.:39:37.

for capital costs. And I'm joined now by the chair

:39:38.:39:48.

of the Public Accounts And the Conservative MP

:39:49.:39:53.

Shailesh Vara, who wants MPs to remain in the Palace,

:39:54.:39:56.

moving over to the House of Lords The cheapest option and the quickest

:39:57.:40:13.

option, if it could be described as cheap, is for everybody to get out,

:40:14.:40:19.

right? Absolutely. That would take how long? The estimate is six years

:40:20.:40:24.

but you've got to make the decision in principle. The full business case

:40:25.:40:27.

we worked out will deal with this uncertain issue but we've known,

:40:28.:40:32.

having major projects that the Public Accounts Committee looks at,

:40:33.:40:35.

there's good evidence to do it in one hit, rather than dribble it out

:40:36.:40:39.

over a long period of time, and that sort of thing will add costs just

:40:40.:40:44.

like if you had a house extension. If the cost of moving the peers out

:40:45.:40:50.

and moving the MPs to the Lords while you get on with all of it,

:40:51.:40:53.

that side of the Palace, I'd put this in quotes, only 500 million, it

:40:54.:41:00.

would be advertised over 11 years now, so it's about 50 million a

:41:01.:41:04.

year, which, in the scheme of things, given the spending, is not

:41:05.:41:13.

huge, but that symbolically be more acceptable that the MPs would stay

:41:14.:41:18.

in a chamber which looks a bit like the one they have got, just rather

:41:19.:41:24.

more glittery? These are not actual costs, let's be care about that. It

:41:25.:41:28.

means they have done some work to analyse what the costs will be and

:41:29.:41:33.

to extrapolate like that, quite robustly, but to do a proper

:41:34.:41:36.

business case on the project you can't be sure of all of these

:41:37.:41:39.

figures. They are pretty robust as they can be at this stage which is

:41:40.:41:43.

why we need to settle on one because the cost of doing the business case

:41:44.:41:46.

is quite something. From our experience, get on with it.

:41:47.:41:51.

Crucially, make a decision. A bit like the one we've taken for the

:41:52.:41:55.

third runway at Heathrow. Exactly, you raise the case in point. We have

:41:56.:41:59.

a bit of a habit of delaying long-term decisions but we got to

:42:00.:42:04.

get on with it. What is your view? It needs to be done urgently, but

:42:05.:42:08.

when you've got an eight acre site, there is room for Parliament to set

:42:09.:42:13.

on the premises, on the Palace, while work is being carried out. All

:42:14.:42:19.

of Parliament? I think both houses Oskars Melbardis addressed one has

:42:20.:42:24.

has a footprint. That important for a number of reasons. At the time of

:42:25.:42:28.

Brexit, in the years after Brexit, we will be out there on the

:42:29.:42:33.

international scene trying to curry favour, make closer friendships with

:42:34.:42:35.

other countries, secure favourable trade agreements and where will we

:42:36.:42:42.

be operating from? Basically a Portakabin in the courtyard of the

:42:43.:42:46.

Department of the government, and also it's important to remember that

:42:47.:42:51.

in the longer run, the costs are neutral whether we decamped or we do

:42:52.:42:59.

it quickly. Clarify one thing. I understand the plan that you get the

:43:00.:43:05.

Lords to move, because nobody really cares where they go, and you move

:43:06.:43:09.

the Commons into their chamber but if you keep both, what would you do

:43:10.:43:13.

with them? That's one of the options, Andrew. You have raised it.

:43:14.:43:19.

If you can't move the Commons into the Lords and the Lords into the

:43:20.:43:22.

Commons, where would they go? The other option is keep both of them

:43:23.:43:26.

and Westminster Hall could be an option. It is vast and massive and

:43:27.:43:32.

the reason that the joint committee report says we shouldn't have the

:43:33.:43:38.

House of Commons there is the slabs on the floor are weak. That is an

:43:39.:43:42.

absurd reason. It's been around for a long time. As far as the roof is

:43:43.:43:49.

concerned, it is so high, they can conveniently build a dome around it.

:43:50.:43:55.

Within. Last time we did that it was a real success! I want to get your

:43:56.:44:02.

response. What do you make of that? It's a nice idea but it's really

:44:03.:44:05.

impractical for the Westminster will, by the time you add the

:44:06.:44:08.

equipment to support everybody, there are structural issues. And it

:44:09.:44:15.

is a World Heritage site, that's the oldest most historic part of the

:44:16.:44:18.

Palace. The government is responsible for the World Heritage

:44:19.:44:24.

site and it is an internationally iconic building, so it unthinkable

:44:25.:44:28.

we don't do anything about it. Doing nothing is not an option but we need

:44:29.:44:34.

to move on. Your suggestion is very complicated and could be very

:44:35.:44:37.

costly. It does mean the building would effectively be at a full

:44:38.:44:40.

commission for at least 11 years whereas the do it fast option is the

:44:41.:44:46.

public could get back into it quicker, and is for the public, too,

:44:47.:44:52.

not just MPs. Its tax payers money. Their time estimates are based on

:44:53.:44:56.

one shift per day, 95. If they did three shifts, and much of the work

:44:57.:45:01.

is underground, cables and electable cables and so on, they will have to

:45:02.:45:06.

work with lights anyway, so the time frame can be shortened

:45:07.:45:09.

substantially. The other important thing to remember if I'm saying we

:45:10.:45:15.

do this this summer. The full decamped option says we should all

:45:16.:45:19.

decamped in six years' time and in the meantime, we continue to spend

:45:20.:45:23.

?600 million for patch up work and it is a complete waste of money. It

:45:24.:45:26.

would be crazy to start this summer because they got a full properly

:45:27.:45:32.

worked out spec. You can start some of the work. If you are building an

:45:33.:45:35.

extension at home, you wouldn't allow people to shift the agenda.

:45:36.:45:38.

You would have a clear spec. There is other work going on. That's

:45:39.:45:49.

partly because we haven't made the decision up to now and we can't be

:45:50.:45:52.

held responsible. We need to plan it. I want to come back to the

:45:53.:45:58.

decision process in a moment. Let me get Jenni's reaction? I'm in almost

:45:59.:46:02.

full hearted agreement with you, which doesn't happen very often. I

:46:03.:46:09.

find myself thinking that you are absolute lit right that it matters

:46:10.:46:13.

particularly at a tame of Brexit. Do you think both Chambers would stay

:46:14.:46:19.

or move out? Inclined to think, to let go of all the rituals that go

:46:20.:46:25.

along with Parliament, is part of Britain's sense of who we are and

:46:26.:46:29.

what matters. They'll be in a different thing. It's like a

:46:30.:46:35.

Portakabin. Not really. Slight exaggeration but it's worth some

:46:36.:46:38.

delay in order to have the continuity of keeping the Commons in

:46:39.:46:41.

one part of the Palace of Westminster. I'm not being

:46:42.:46:44.

knowledgeable here, just emotional. A lot of decisions are. You could

:46:45.:46:48.

also, as part of deech luges and making sure Parliament reengages

:46:49.:46:52.

with the country, you could move the Lords to Scunthorpe. Steady on! I

:46:53.:46:57.

have to say... That would be expensive. I find myself disagreeing

:46:58.:47:02.

with Jenni on the question of ritual and I never thought I would say

:47:03.:47:05.

this. 20 years ago I would have even rated that place but I would go for

:47:06.:47:10.

a complete demolition actually. Of all the buildings? Apart from

:47:11.:47:18.

Westminster Hall. Westminster Hall where Charles I was tried and

:47:19.:47:22.

William Wallace. Wouldn't we end up with the international courts with

:47:23.:47:25.

that, it's a World Heritage Site. I'm only half joking in that I think

:47:26.:47:32.

that the people who work in that building overestimate, overstate the

:47:33.:47:38.

public's affection for the building and I think a lot of the flummery

:47:39.:47:43.

that takes place in the Commons under the name of ritual and

:47:44.:47:50.

tradition is actually like a 19th version of the 17th century fake

:47:51.:47:54.

version. I find myself in the unusual position of being in a

:47:55.:47:58.

modernised process. But you still knead a building to do all the work

:47:59.:48:08.

in. The building is not going to be knocked down, despite what Mr Martin

:48:09.:48:13.

says. That may breach BBC impartiality rules but I think

:48:14.:48:17.

that's a safe bet. We have enough problems with the existing options.

:48:18.:48:21.

Tell us briefly, what is the process, is it the Commons that

:48:22.:48:26.

determines this, both Houses determine it, what happens?

:48:27.:48:29.

Ultimately because the Commons is the primary chamber, but the

:48:30.:48:32.

Government determines when the vote will take place and how that vote

:48:33.:48:37.

will happen. If you go for more than one option now, what we were

:48:38.:48:39.

concerned about is that then you have to work up two detailed

:48:40.:48:43.

business plans rather than just one. Do you do one at the same time or

:48:44.:48:48.

the other, or go for all the evidence so it shows to us which is

:48:49.:48:52.

the most cost effective and start work on that. When do you expect the

:48:53.:48:58.

decision to be taken? There have been indications that it could be

:48:59.:49:00.

before Easter but the Government have lots on their plate at the

:49:01.:49:04.

moment, I'm not holding my breath. We have got to move on, we cannot

:49:05.:49:08.

keep delaying the decision. Thank you very much.

:49:09.:49:11.

This May, people living in six city regions will get to vote

:49:12.:49:14.

These are new posts the government is insisting areas have to have

:49:15.:49:18.

if they want powers transferred from Westminster to

:49:19.:49:20.

In the West Midlands, the mayor will have an annual budget

:49:21.:49:26.

of around 40 million and responsibility for transport,

:49:27.:49:29.

housing and job creation projects over an area stretching

:49:30.:49:31.

Jenny Kumah's been to Birmingham to meet the people

:49:32.:49:36.

?92 million of skills and transport projects. It's all parts of plans to

:49:37.:50:05.

boost the region 's flagging economy. And fuel the so-called

:50:06.:50:11.

Midlands engine. Philip Hammond also went to Birmingham city centre to

:50:12.:50:16.

see this man. He's a former boss of John Lewis. And standing as the

:50:17.:50:19.

Conservative candidate for West Midlands Mayor. Iver and John Lewis

:50:20.:50:27.

for Lily ten years, enjoyed a hugely, but this is a real

:50:28.:50:30.

opportunity so I want to lead the region I grew up in the region I

:50:31.:50:35.

return to. You got a target to eradicate youth unemployment by the

:50:36.:50:39.

end of your term in 2020. Yes, that is achievable. We've reduced it by

:50:40.:50:45.

20% over the last four years. The way we will achieve that is by

:50:46.:50:50.

focusing new money, new activities on that. But this is a traditionally

:50:51.:50:56.

strong Labour area. And labour is fielding one of their most

:50:57.:50:59.

experienced politicians. He used to be a Birmingham MP who stood down

:51:00.:51:03.

beef because you want to be the city's Mayor but the election never

:51:04.:51:08.

happened because people voted in the referendum against the idea of

:51:09.:51:13.

having one. He's now an MEP and his mayoral campaign slogan has echoes

:51:14.:51:19.

of the leave campaign. I've been using this phrase for seven years,

:51:20.:51:23.

is because it was Sisley expresses exactly what it is that we are and

:51:24.:51:29.

we need to do. If it was appropriated last year by some other

:51:30.:51:32.

people for another purpose, that's not my problem and I'm not going to

:51:33.:51:35.

stop using the phrase that I have been using for years to say what has

:51:36.:51:41.

to be said about my place. We are going to take back control of the

:51:42.:51:45.

West Midlands from London. Jeremy Corbyn, is yet help or hindrance to

:51:46.:51:51.

your campaign? My concern is not who is the leader of the Labour Party.

:51:52.:51:56.

But why are huge chunks of our public services being determined by

:51:57.:51:58.

people in London who don't know anything about the West Midlands?

:51:59.:52:02.

Other parties are determined not to make a two horse race between

:52:03.:52:06.

Conservatives and Labour. Essentially we've had a few

:52:07.:52:10.

surprises in politics recently. Brexit and Trump. Was always a

:52:11.:52:15.

chance we might make a lucky third one and I'm absolutely in it to win

:52:16.:52:20.

it. The Mayor will chair the combined authority board and if we

:52:21.:52:24.

get a Labour Mayor my view is nothing will change. If we get a

:52:25.:52:27.

Conservative Mayor nothing will happen. If we get a Lib Dem Mayor I

:52:28.:52:32.

believe I can be a real unifying voice, I can bring together a

:52:33.:52:36.

cross-party consensus. I think they should consider voting Green because

:52:37.:52:41.

traditionally Labour have let people down here. If you look at the map 25

:52:42.:52:45.

years ago the least well-off areas and a map now, it is completely

:52:46.:52:49.

unchanged. I don't think any of the other candidates explain a position

:52:50.:52:55.

which appeals to ordinary people. That's what the Communists are

:52:56.:52:59.

standing. That's all the politics of how much of the candidates know

:53:00.:53:04.

about the local area? We decided to test them with our West Midlands

:53:05.:53:08.

quiz. The first motorised funeral was held in Coventry. Funeral? But a

:53:09.:53:15.

good claim to fame so let's go for true. Correct. True. Wolverhampton

:53:16.:53:25.

is the youngest city in Europe would under 25 accounting for nearly 40%

:53:26.:53:30.

of the population? I would say false, I think Birmingham is younger

:53:31.:53:37.

than one Bampton. -- Wolverhampton. Correct. Lawn tennis was first

:53:38.:53:40.

played and invented in deadly over 100 years ago. That is false.

:53:41.:53:48.

Edgbaston. Probably false, it sounds a soft southern game to me. The

:53:49.:53:52.

answer to who would be the first West Midlands Mayor will be

:53:53.:53:55.

available after the vote on May the 4th.

:53:56.:53:58.

And we're joined now by the BBC's Midlands Political

:53:59.:54:08.

I think there's a lot of interest in this Mayor for the West Midlands

:54:09.:54:15.

because you seem to have a real race on your hands there, don't you? We

:54:16.:54:19.

absolutely do. There is a sense some of the other ones in major cities

:54:20.:54:23.

north of here look a little bit like a foregone conclusion whereas here,

:54:24.:54:29.

to some extent, yes, this is the first of a new kind of election,

:54:30.:54:33.

there is nothing directly, no particular experience from the past

:54:34.:54:37.

to draw on, although the police and crime commission on elections are a

:54:38.:54:42.

little bit like it. It is a much more personality focused campaign,

:54:43.:54:45.

so the usual party political rankings, are not a complete guide

:54:46.:54:50.

as they have been in the past about, having said that, yes, we have a

:54:51.:54:54.

genuine contest here between some well-known candidates with

:54:55.:54:59.

reasonably high profiles locally and nationally. We are hearing

:55:00.:55:05.

expressions of confidence certainly from the Conservative and Labour

:55:06.:55:08.

sides, the Conservatives point out that some research by the Centre for

:55:09.:55:14.

cities suggest that they only need a 4% swing to them from the way the

:55:15.:55:21.

results stacked up in 2015 general election for them to win this one,

:55:22.:55:25.

but Labour on the other hand say if you simply look at the vote from a

:55:26.:55:33.

general election, you find this is strongly a Labour area but, as we

:55:34.:55:38.

know, party politics have moved on a lot since then. Patcher, do people

:55:39.:55:42.

feel this is a coherent region with Birmingham at the heart of it? --

:55:43.:55:48.

Patrick. Do people in Wolverhampton feel they belong to the same region

:55:49.:55:53.

as the people in Coventry? The politicians make it a region but do

:55:54.:55:58.

the people? That's a very important point because for the political

:55:59.:56:01.

leaders to whom you refer to, to get this historic agreement as it was

:56:02.:56:06.

hailed at the time, bring together the great tribal fiefdoms of the

:56:07.:56:10.

Black Country and Birmingham, it was seen as a thing at the top but

:56:11.:56:14.

frankly, there was great resistance, not just amongst the people, but

:56:15.:56:19.

local councillors. You are accused of re-venturing into the

:56:20.:56:22.

relationship between turkeys and Christmas but nevertheless you have

:56:23.:56:25.

put your finger very much on point and the key thing to remember in all

:56:26.:56:30.

of this is David Cameron and George Osborne said if you wanted the

:56:31.:56:36.

maximum level of devolution, you had to have what they call the focal

:56:37.:56:40.

point for accountability right at the top around whom people could

:56:41.:56:45.

rally, and the evidence of... In fact two referendums in Birmingham

:56:46.:56:49.

and one in Coventry, the experience of an elected Mayor in Stoke were

:56:50.:56:52.

they had a referendum and voted it down, is that there is active

:56:53.:56:58.

popular hostility to this, so we have the ironic situation that in

:56:59.:57:03.

the name of local democracy, the government has imposed what looks to

:57:04.:57:06.

many critics like a top-down solution. OK, Patrick, it's good to

:57:07.:57:12.

have a race on your hands so we look forward to coming back to and you

:57:13.:57:14.

can tell us how the race is going. Just time now for a bite-size

:57:15.:57:15.

review of the political Jeremy Corbyn's tax return raised

:57:16.:57:18.

more questions than it answered. It seemed he'd missed off his pay

:57:19.:57:27.

for being leader of the opposition. Labour said it was there under

:57:28.:57:33.

a different heading. A two billion euro takeover

:57:34.:57:37.

of Vauxhall prompted job worries but the new boss said its two UK

:57:38.:57:39.

factories will stay open. Michael Heseltine was one of 13

:57:40.:57:44.

Tory peers who demanded To ensure that Parliament

:57:45.:57:47.

is the ultimate custodian Ministers were defeated,

:57:48.:57:54.

and Lord Heseltine was fired PMQs was a riot for the PM

:57:55.:57:59.

despite Jeremy Corbyn's efforts to embarrass her over social care

:58:00.:58:05.

funding deals in Surrey. And, no surprises,

:58:06.:58:10.

promised Philip Hammond. Inside the red box

:58:11.:58:15.

there was a surprise for his own backbenchers -

:58:16.:58:17.

a rise in national insurance. There's just time before we go

:58:18.:58:29.

to find out the answer to our quiz. Today EU leaders are meeting

:58:30.:58:34.

in Brussels in the new Europa So the question was what has that

:58:35.:58:37.

building been nicknamed? they call of the Space Egg, I don't

:58:38.:58:50.

know why. Anyway that's enough for today.

:58:51.:58:52.

I'll be back on Sunday with the Sunday Politics.

:58:53.:58:54.

The thing that's so clear is that it's 100% honest.

:58:55.:59:18.

We're right in the middle of the action.

:59:19.:59:21.

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