Browse content similar to 10/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:00. | :00:40. | |
Theresa May backs her Chancellor on his National Insurance hike | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
for the self-employed but delays legislation for the change | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
So has the PM managed to kill off a backbench rebellion? | :00:49. | :00:54. | |
European leaders continue their summit in Brussels without Mrs May. | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
We'll get the latest from the meeting of the EU27 | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
as they discuss the European Union's future post-Brexit. | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
MPs and peers should move out of parliament for six years to allow | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
urgent repairs costing ?4 billion to take place, that's the view | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
We'll hear from its chair, Meg Hillier, and an | :01:16. | :01:21. | |
And, tax returns, lordly sackings and budget numbers - | :01:22. | :01:28. | |
we look back on the political week, in just 60 seconds. | :01:29. | :01:35. | |
All that in the next hour and with us for the duration | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
Jenni Russell who writes for the Times, and Iain Martin, | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
So, just 24 hours after the budget, Theresa May signals the possibility | :01:44. | :01:58. | |
of a re-think on Philip Hammond's national insurance increase. | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
We'll examine the options open to the Chancellor in just a moment. | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
First though, David Cameron finds himself in the thick of it | :02:10. | :02:15. | |
with comments he seems to have made while chatting to the Defence | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
Eagle-eyed ITV correspondent Chris Ship spotted the former | :02:20. | :02:27. | |
Prime Minister talking to Mr Fallon at yesterday's memorial service | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
for members of the armed services in Horse Guards Parade in central | :02:33. | :02:35. | |
Amateur lip-readers suggested Mr Cameron may have been commenting | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
on Philip Hammond's decision to break the Conservative's | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
manifesto commitment not to raise national insurance. | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
So can we know for certain what David Cameron was saying? | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
We're joined now by Tina Lannin, a forensic lip | :02:55. | :02:57. | |
And you've brought Bailey along as well? I have. Fantastic. I should | :02:58. | :03:09. | |
have brought iris Bailey along and they could have met. Anyway, let me | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
just ask you this - how accurate, before we look at it, is | :03:15. | :03:24. | |
lip-reading? It really does depend on the ability of the lip reader to | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
pick up what he's saying, the fluency of the language and also on | :03:29. | :03:35. | |
the quality of the TV clip, whether it's good quality and whether the | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
camera goes away from the speaker, whether the camera is shaky, blurry, | :03:41. | :03:43. | |
all that kind of thing. That would add to the difficulty if it was. But | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
if the quality is reasonably good, and we'll see it in a minute, a | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
professional lip-reader like yourself, we'd have a fair idea of | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
what was being said? Yes, I would have a fairly good idea. Somebody | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
who had been lip-reading everybody around them every day of their life, | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
you'll have a fairly good idea and I rely on lip-reading and I'm | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
lip-reading you now, I'm totally deaf but I can understand what you | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
are saying because I'm lip-reading. My lip-reading skills are quite | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
accurate. I would certainly say that. We are going to get your | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
professional opinion in a minute. We have had a number of amateur | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
opinions already. Can anyone lip read? I would have thought it's | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
really a skill, is it not? It is a skill, it's an art and everybody can | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
lip read to some extent but it's a question of how good you are and | :04:40. | :04:42. | |
that only comes with practise. I'm told we have got the best with | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
you, so let's have a look at the clip again and then we'll get your | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
expert opinion. Let's see what David Cameron's saying. | :04:51. | :05:02. | |
Tina, I would say that was pretty good quality there, not blurry, the | :05:03. | :05:09. | |
camera's not shaking, it's pretty good broadcast TV qualities, | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
slightly in the distance. So, in your professional opinion, what did | :05:15. | :05:24. | |
Mr Cameron say? I interpret him by saying breaking the manifesto | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
promise, how stupid can you get. So he did say, breaking a manifesto | :05:30. | :05:32. | |
promise, how stupid can you get? Yes. Right. Well, we thank you. Give | :05:33. | :05:41. | |
us your reaction to this professional authentication. First | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
of all, I'm amazed because I would look at that and wouldn't have a | :05:48. | :05:50. | |
clue, I would say it was just complaining about the weather. It | :05:51. | :05:53. | |
was a silly promise in the first place and it was the one that he | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
made. He made it, not thinking that his Government would ever have to | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
stand by it because he didn't expect to win the last majority with an | :06:02. | :06:04. | |
election and therefore be responsible for the policies that | :06:05. | :06:07. | |
followed. But they didn't tell us that at the time. For voters, a | :06:08. | :06:14. | |
promise is a promise. But it's a bit much for him to be the person | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
criticising. He thought he'd be part of a coalition. Theresa May is bound | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
by a promise that she didn't make. Nevertheless, I do think it was very | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
foolish of her Government to think that you could get away. Without the | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
big row that we have seen? But not eeven acknowledge that you are | :06:34. | :06:36. | |
breaking it, pretend it wasn't in the pledge and to look as though you | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
are splitting hairs. That's what didn't work, that's what made people | :06:41. | :06:43. | |
feel that they were dancing on the head of a pin. There's something | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
magnificent about that clip, it still looks as though Cameron is in | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
charge. He's summoning over the Defence Secretary saying, now look | :06:53. | :06:55. | |
here Fallon, what's all this rubbish. That's amusing. I think | :06:56. | :07:02. | |
Cameron's right to be angry. I think it's still a bit of a puzzle as to | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
what on earth the Government thought they were doing. I mean, you can | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
take the view that it's a stupid pledge, I understand that, and you | :07:14. | :07:20. | |
can take a wider view to rule out any income tax rises and national | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
insurance to freeze fuel duty. It seems in perpetuity, you are really | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
eroding the tax base. The point on trust is, they may have not once, | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
not twice, not thrice, but four times in this manifesto... And they | :07:38. | :07:45. | |
legislated on it. They excluded the self-employed from the legislation | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
but it looked as if they were putting it absolutely in a solid | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
form and it couldn't be taken away. The difficulty for this, for the | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
Government, is that this is a perfect storm really, in the fact | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
that it's not one group, the self-employed, but the | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
self-employed, the upper end who're paid via dividends, that runs from | :08:09. | :08:11. | |
white van driver and plumbers all the way through the economy at every | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
salary level so it's extraordinary that a Tory Chancellor didn't see | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
this. Are we being fair to Mr Cameron in the sense that we are | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
reading his lips from a distance, he's having a private conversation, | :08:28. | :08:30. | |
the cameras are on him. If you are in the public eye, we have to just | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
accept this, do we? You have to accept it. I believe Tina, but the | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
wider issue here is one about trust. In an era of alternative facts, | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
politicians have got to be trustworthy and they have to learn | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
that if you say something to the public, you can't wriggle out of it. | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
You have to be frank about why you are breaking a promise or you just | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
build cynicism. We showed you the clip again there. Tina, you have | :08:55. | :08:57. | |
settled one of the controversies of the week, we are very grateful to | :08:58. | :09:03. | |
you and Bailey for coming in. Bye-bye, see you soon, Bailey. | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
This row over the Government's plans to raise the rate of Class 4 | :09:09. | :09:15. | |
National Insurance contributions is now in its third day. | :09:16. | :09:17. | |
Let's remind ourselves what's been happening. | :09:18. | :09:20. | |
In his budget speech on Wednesday, Philip Hammond said the changes | :09:21. | :09:23. | |
are necessary because the current lower rate of National Insurance | :09:24. | :09:26. | |
"undermines the fairness of the tax system". | :09:27. | :09:32. | |
But that left Tory MPs queuing up to criticise the government's plans. | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
Conservative MP Stephen McPartland said on this programme yesterday. | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
"We need to get a U-turn and we need one quickly." | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
Guto Bebb, a minister in the Wales Office | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
But Matthew Taylor, the former adviser to Tony Blair, | :09:49. | :10:00. | |
Mr Taylor is currently carrying out a government review looking at how | :10:01. | :10:09. | |
the state treats self-employed people and other issues. | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
Theresa May signalled last night that she and the Government | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
But Labour weren't pleased with that. | :10:17. | :10:29. | |
The Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell said Theresa May should. | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
Let's have a look at what Theresa May said last night, | :10:35. | :10:37. | |
speaking at a press conference in Brussels. | :10:38. | :10:46. | |
And I think it is fair to close the gap in contributions between two | :10:47. | :10:54. | |
people doing the same work and using the same public | :10:55. | :10:56. | |
services to make the same contribution to wider society. | :10:57. | :10:58. | |
And then I think the final question you ask is is it progressive? | :10:59. | :11:01. | |
And the changes that will be built through on NICS | :11:02. | :11:04. | |
to Class 2 and Class 4, taken together, under those, | :11:05. | :11:07. | |
the lowest paid self-employed workers will be better off and half | :11:08. | :11:10. | |
the revenues raised will be paid by the best off, by the wealthiest. | :11:11. | :11:19. | |
We've been joined from Gloucester by the Conservative MP Neil Carmichael. | :11:20. | :11:22. | |
And in the studio by the director of the Resolution | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
Michael, the Prime Minister says she's in listening mode, so what do | :11:26. | :11:36. | |
you want to tell her? I first of all think it's absolutely | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
necessary for us to raise as much tax as we possibly can. This is the | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
time of Brexit and we are going to be needing extra money in the | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
long-term. The second point is, we've got to, however, make sure our | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
entrepreneurs, our consultants, those people who're basically | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
self-employed feel that the risks they take are ones which the | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
Government are going to acknowledge. I think that's part of a tailoring | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
review. What do you want to tell her on this - that's very general, I | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
asked you a specific question. Well, what I would say is that I think the | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
delay towards the autumn is wise. I think that tapering would be | :12:16. | :12:18. | |
appropriate because I think that there will be a group, as far as I | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
can see from the figures, that are going to be effectively asked to pay | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
a sizeable chunk. Which group would that be? That would be the high | :12:28. | :12:34. | |
earner chunk. The higher earnings who are employed are paying high | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
national insurance at the moment, so if you look at a management | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
consultant on ?52,000 a year, they would pay another ?600 or so. Yes. | :12:44. | :12:49. | |
On national insurance contributions a year, they are on over ?50,000 a | :12:50. | :12:56. | |
wouldn't be paying anything like the national insurance that an employee | :12:57. | :12:59. | |
would pay, particularly when you add in the employee contribution? But | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
you have to balance what a self-employed person isn't getting | :13:04. | :13:06. | |
through the benefits system or risk to his position or her position if | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
things went wrong. You've also got to factor in things like business | :13:11. | :13:13. | |
rates which might actually be a problem too. Everybody is paying | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
business rates. But the biggest amount of money in this country goes | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
on the Health Service and social care and welfare, if you are | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
self-employed, last time I looked you were entitled to the NHS. Yes. | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
And to social care, such as there is in this country these days, so why | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
shouldn't you pay a bit more? And I thought you were against them paying | :13:37. | :13:39. | |
more, which side of the fence are you on? I'm on the side of the fence | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
which in the long run we have to raise more revenue... You've said | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
all that, but what do you want us to do on NICS? What do you want the got | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
to do, what should the country be doing on national insurance What I | :13:55. | :13:57. | |
want the Government to be doing on national insurance is delaying a | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
decision which I think it's effectively said because we are not | :14:03. | :14:05. | |
voting on this until the awe Tim, quite rightly, between thousand and | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
then, we need a rebust look at the figures so that we can actually say | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
to those people affected that this is not going to be as bad as is | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
currently predicted -- autumn. So in other words there should be some | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
changes made in the next six months. But unless it's some kind of | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
compromise and, if your words, if it's not as bad as was outlined on | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
Wednesday, whatever compromise, if national insurance is to rise, it's | :14:34. | :14:36. | |
a breach of your manifesto commitment. It may not be as bad a | :14:37. | :14:39. | |
breach but it's still a breach? Well, you know, we said in the | :14:40. | :14:42. | |
manifesto we are going to stay in the single market and that's plainly | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
not going to happen, so... But you thought you were going to win the | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
referendum to remain too so things did change there. What's changed to | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
force national insurance contributions up? The politics have | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
changed, the economics have changed. We voted to leave the European | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
Union. That's going to have an impact on our membership of the | :15:02. | :15:04. | |
single market by simply saying we are not going to be in it. That's | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
clearly on the cards. So that is something which is at variance with | :15:10. | :15:12. | |
the manifesto and this too is add variance with the manifesto. | :15:13. | :15:15. | |
Actually for the same reason, that we are needing to find more money to | :15:16. | :15:22. | |
prepare a cushion for whilst we prepare to leave the European Union. | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
They're linked. Stick with us, you will get a chance to sort out your | :15:28. | :15:30. | |
ear piece too. We are spending ?400 million gives | :15:31. | :16:28. | |
the self-employed a tax cut, abolishing class 2, the flat rate, | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
?150 a year that all self-employed pay. That is why the losers are only | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
over ?16,000. It's not about raising money. This is about saying we have | :16:39. | :16:41. | |
a fundamental problem in the tax system and we need to keep up with | :16:42. | :16:47. | |
the world of world which is working -- world of work. The key thing you | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
you were talking about, about the people being entitled to use the NHS | :16:53. | :16:55. | |
and the social care, the real issue is the state pension. Historically, | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
the reason why people pay lower national insurance, the | :17:01. | :17:03. | |
self-employed, is they used to get a better pension. That has been ended. | :17:04. | :17:06. | |
They get the same pension as employees and, as a result, the gap | :17:07. | :17:09. | |
on the national insurance needs to be closed. | :17:10. | :17:16. | |
Right, but it may be true, as your foundation, I think it's been said | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
too, that if you are earning less than ?16,000, you are unaffected by | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
this. Some people will be better off. The real increase, the example | :17:26. | :17:33. | |
of the management consultant that I gave, they're in the top 50% of | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
households, but there are a group of people who'll be paying more, | :17:38. | :17:45. | |
earning between ?16,000 and ?25-?26,000 a year, but they are the | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
just about managing classes, so why put any extra burden on them since | :17:50. | :17:52. | |
your own foundation's said the living standards are now going to be | :17:53. | :17:56. | |
squeezed even without this. Why put a further burden on them no matter | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
how small? That is a good point, Andrew. What you are getting at | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
there... What is the answer? I'll come to it. Policies are difficult. | :18:06. | :18:13. | |
They have pros and cons, you have probably already done them. If tax | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
rises in particular, unless you are a saint, you don't want to | :18:19. | :18:21. | |
particularly have any less money in your pocket, so would I ideally like | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
a policy that somehow had a fairer tax system between self-employed and | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
employees and didn't lead to any extra money being taken on the | :18:31. | :18:33. | |
earnings and salaries you are talking about - yes. Is that | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
possible in the real world and is it responsible for people who want a | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
better country to ignore those ambiguities - no. For three days, | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
your party, your government, has had a complete kicking, even in the Tory | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
press, is it worth it for another ?200 million a year. That's not even | :18:51. | :18:57. | |
a rounding error? I think it's worth having the debates. I said is it | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
worth it for ?200 million. The Chancellor will drop that down the | :19:03. | :19:05. | |
back of the sofa on a Friday afternoon. Well, you say that to a | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
school struggling to pay an extra teacher and you would think, well | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
?200 million will go some distance. It would help make sure that the | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
national funding formula had a better floor than currently is | :19:19. | :19:22. | |
projected and so on. So ?200 million is... It's worth all this political | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
pain then? Well, I think what we have to do is take the whole budget | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
together, you know. This is more than just this issue about national | :19:31. | :19:36. | |
insurance contributions. It's about actually rebalancing the economy | :19:37. | :19:38. | |
towards being more productive and so on, so that does matter. The key | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
point about the fairness angle is still a relevant one. We have to | :19:44. | :19:46. | |
bear in mind that the employment patterns are changing and the | :19:47. | :19:49. | |
taxation system really has to reflect that. But you are a Tory, | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
you are meant to be in favour of people being self-employed and | :19:54. | :19:56. | |
entrepreneurial and not dependent on the state. Why is it the policy of a | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
Tory Government to say, you are going to have to pay more tax in the | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
form of national insurance, but in return the state will give you more | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
benefits. Isn't that what the Labour Party is meant to believe? Well, | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
those benefits are around sort of conditions if you fell out of your | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
position as a self-employed person. I think that's fair to recognise | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
that there are risks there. You've actually already answered your own | :20:26. | :20:28. | |
question because you... That doesn't happen very often... The more | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
youern, the more you'll pay, because down at the ?16,000 level you | :20:34. | :20:36. | |
wouldn't pay at all and you would benefit. One more thing because you | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
are struggling with that ear piece, and I'm grateful for you sticking | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
with it, but let me ask you one more thing. I'm still not clear what you | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
want to Government to do compared to what the Chancellor announced and we | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
are going to have until autumn to decide that, but do you get the | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
sense there is compromise in the air that what the Chancellor announced | :20:58. | :21:00. | |
will not in the end be what is legislated for in the autumn? I | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
think there's scope for compromise, that's helpful. That's what we need. | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
This is about tapering and levels and we have some discussions, six | :21:12. | :21:14. | |
months in order to have them, the argument is on the table. The | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
principle is one we'll salute. The Prime Minister said that last night. | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
It's just a question of how we do it. I think that is what the | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
discussions will be around during the course of the period up to and | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
including the final vote when this is decided in the autumn. Let me try | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
one more time with you - what would you like the Government to do to | :21:35. | :21:38. | |
make this acceptable to you and some of your colleagues? Make absolutely | :21:39. | :21:45. | |
clear what self-employed people will be benefitting from if changes are | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
made in the Taylor review and doeth we don't know exactly what they are | :21:50. | :21:52. | |
but that's an important aspect. This is two sides of the same coin. It's | :21:53. | :21:55. | |
paying for something but knowing what you are going to get in return | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
so there needs be clarity there and there isn't any clarity really at | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
the moment. Also this issue about tapering, that's an important word | :22:05. | :22:07. | |
in this conversation. I don't know what it means though in this | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
context. What it means is that we'll probably have a situation where the | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
introduction of this scheme was more gradual and less... But it is | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
tapered at the moment, it's only 1% starting next year then another 1% | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
starting the year after that, it's a gradual introduction. That's why I'm | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
everysizing there should be more discussion about that. More | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
tapering? Yes, I think so. -- emphasising. Anyway, I'm sure we'll | :22:37. | :22:43. | |
discuss more about this as the summer comes about. I can hardly | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
wait! Plenty to talk about. Thank you very much! Thank you and thank | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
you again for dealing with that pesky ear piece that you've got | :22:52. | :23:01. | |
there! What do you think of this? I think Torsten Bell should be | :23:02. | :23:08. | |
advising more on this. Most people think they work is unpredictable and | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
they don't get holiday pay or sick pay. There seems to be radical | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
disadvantages and it seems to be radically unfair to say your life is | :23:18. | :23:23. | |
the same as a working person. So his argument about saying you are | :23:24. | :23:25. | |
getting an equal state pension now and you never had that before is a | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
much more powerful argument than anything else that has been put | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
forward? Iain We should acknowledge there is a bias on the part of | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
newspaper columnists and freelance journalists. Disproportionate... Who | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
is going to speak up for the self-employed? To the barricades. | :23:44. | :23:59. | |
There was an interesting thing the Chancellor said in the budget about | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
how technology is reshaping the economy and he says he's going to | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
come back to it. This would have been almost fine if he'd said let's | :24:10. | :24:15. | |
have a proper review of how employment is structured, headed not | :24:16. | :24:18. | |
by someone like Matthew Taylor with instincts always to raise taxation. | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
You never know... I don't think that's fair. The answer, heaven | :24:23. | :24:29. | |
know, mite come back to reduce the national insurance of the employed | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
and maybe spend a little less and borrow a little less. Balancing the | :24:34. | :24:41. | |
budget into the 2030s. Yes. It's already been kicked sideways, so why | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
not? ! It's become very complicated. Life is complicated. But our tax | :24:47. | :24:54. | |
system is complicated. The tax guide is taller than you now and you are | :24:55. | :25:00. | |
quite tall. Why do we have national insurance, it's just income tax by | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
another name and yet there's no talk any more among policy-makers at the | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
top level of just rolling the two together and simplifying things It's | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
not exactly the same in one big way. You pay income tax but you don't pay | :25:13. | :25:17. | |
national insurance. You look like you're... You are wasted in the | :25:18. | :25:23. | |
resolution foundation, you should be in the diplomatic corps! But you | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
would be paying a lot more money. I understand that. That may be the | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
case, but you would have to then live with some consequences. The | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
over 65s in real terms are doing much better than people in their 20s | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
and 30s at the moment. It's an unnecessary complication and you | :25:40. | :25:42. | |
could come up with a formula which rolled the two together. It's not a | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
hypothecating tax any more. George Osborne asked the office for similar | :25:48. | :25:50. | |
police officercation, which was designed for reasons you are | :25:51. | :25:52. | |
highlighting. They did a report, they say it could be done, | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
complicated ways of doing it and the Government said no, thank you, have | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
you met the over 60s. So we have given them a lot, a triple lot as | :26:02. | :26:08. | |
well -- a triple lock. We can help deal with the self-employed. Can I | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
ask a question, do you have any idea how much you would raise if you | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
taxed people like Andrew, the over 65s. Andrew would raise a lot of | :26:17. | :26:24. | |
money! That's very easy to find out. Would it be more than ?200 million | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
do you think? Oh, billions! There we are, we have solved the problem. One | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
billion from Andrew and billions from the rest of the population. | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
Thank you for coming in and we'll see you again around 2026 when | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
you'll probably be getting your pension. Look forward to it. And the | :26:43. | :26:47. | |
taxes will have gone up. I'll be speaking to Matthew Taylor on the | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
Sunday Politics this Sunday on this very issue and we'll look at some of | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
the principles behind this problem of how do you tax the self-employed, | :26:57. | :27:03. | |
indeed, how do you stop the tax base from eroding with the decade coming | :27:04. | :27:08. | |
up when the demands on health, social care and other things are | :27:09. | :27:10. | |
going to be huge. Today EU leaders are meeting | :27:11. | :27:12. | |
in Brussels in the new Europa But the question is what has that | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
building been nicknamed? At the end of the show, | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
Iain and Jenni will give So, the EU summit in Brussels | :27:22. | :27:33. | |
continues today without Theresa May. The remaining 27 leaders are due | :27:34. | :27:41. | |
to discuss the future development Our correspondent Ben Wright joins | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
us now from Brussels. Ben, Mrs May's not there, I assume | :27:47. | :28:06. | |
Brexit is not high up the discussions at the moment because | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
Article 50 hasn't been triggered. So what are they talking about? Well, I | :28:11. | :28:16. | |
think there's party planning going on this morning, the 27 sitting | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
around working out how this big event they're planning for the 25th | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
in Italy is going to work which they want to look like a huge show of | :28:25. | :28:30. | |
unity by the European Union to mark 60 years since the Treaty of Rome | :28:31. | :28:33. | |
was signed. So they'll be talking about that today. They'll be talking | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
about recent plans put forward by the European Commission President | :28:39. | :28:41. | |
Jean-Claude Juncker for the ten year plan. Various option force the | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
future direction of the EU. And I imagine too, oh to be in that room, | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
I mean they'll probably be talking about Brexit. They are not talking | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
about negotiations in public, they won't do that until Article 50 is | :28:54. | :28:57. | |
triggered, but once Theresa May does that and writes her letter to the | :28:58. | :29:03. | |
European Council, then the EU 27 then have to work out their | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
negotiating mandate. How they are going to approach these talks and | :29:07. | :29:09. | |
those talks have been going on behind-the-scenes and I'm sure they | :29:10. | :29:12. | |
are touching on it this morning. Is there a sense of you covering a | :29:13. | :29:20. | |
Marie Antoinette party there, as you talk about that and Geert wilders is | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
against the EU on the hard right, marine Le Pen is doing far better | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
than her father, will almost certainly be in the next round of | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
the French elections and four out of five big parties are against the | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
euro. Do they ever think about any of that? | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
Thoreau Trump into the mix as well. The great American ally of the EU, | :29:43. | :29:50. | |
the USA, has decidedly gone wobbly since Donald Trump entered the White | :29:51. | :29:53. | |
House. Their access then shall challenges wherever you look. -- | :29:54. | :30:01. | |
existential challenges. I think they got to get the tone of the party | :30:02. | :30:04. | |
quite right which is why they don't want Theresa May to trigger Brexit | :30:05. | :30:07. | |
in the immediate days before all the media days after this big event in | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
Rome and that has been made quite clear. To the British government. | :30:13. | :30:18. | |
Look, they know that this is a very difficult time for the European | :30:19. | :30:21. | |
Union. Is no getting around that at all. And that will colour their | :30:22. | :30:27. | |
approach to Brexit. People around here, you hear them saying it's all | :30:28. | :30:30. | |
very well for the UK to keep saying they would get the best deal for | :30:31. | :30:33. | |
Britain but people here are saying they would get the best deal for the | :30:34. | :30:36. | |
European Union and one which acts as a warning to others not to leave the | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
club. In the absence of specific about what the European Union are | :30:42. | :30:43. | |
going to put on the table, that's what you have to go on. But we don't | :30:44. | :30:49. | |
know if there is agreement among the 27 about what the best deal for the | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
remaining European Union would mean. We don't know if the polls agree | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
with the French, in fact, we're pretty sure they don't. We don't | :30:59. | :31:03. | |
know what Emmanuel Macron's idea would be, or Mr Schultz, if he was | :31:04. | :31:11. | |
to become the Chancellor. I don't know what a good deal would look | :31:12. | :31:18. | |
like for all 27 to agree on. You are absolutely right, we also hear that | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
Germany is certainly trying to restrain countries who want this to | :31:23. | :31:28. | |
be sort of a process of punishment for the UK. The Germans are very | :31:29. | :31:30. | |
worried about what might happen to the City of London if there is a | :31:31. | :31:35. | |
punitive approach taken on the question of financial services for | :31:36. | :31:38. | |
instance, but each country has different interests which is why | :31:39. | :31:41. | |
there is a suspicion here that the EU, sorry the UK may try to divide | :31:42. | :31:47. | |
and rule a bit when negotiations begin. And they think the EU was | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
very aware of that and at the moment is stressing they are going to go | :31:52. | :31:55. | |
into this as one united bloc. Certainly after the Malta summit all | :31:56. | :31:59. | |
EU leaders were stressing that they would be negotiating as a bloc and | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
the UK would not be able to peel off individual countries and played to | :32:05. | :32:08. | |
individual interests. One final thing, coming out of negotiators | :32:09. | :32:14. | |
negotiating as a bloc. Some in the British government are saying that | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
once Article 50 is triggered, a deal, not much will happen, because | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
of all the elections I mentioned, but a deal on reciprocal rights will | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
be done quickly for EU nationals here and UK nationals in the rest of | :32:29. | :32:32. | |
the EU. And that will partly be done to keep Eastern Europe on board and | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
they do think that that will happen quickly, but then there will be a | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
hiatus as the French elections get underway followed by the others. Is | :32:41. | :32:45. | |
there any indication about where you are that the EU may be on board for | :32:46. | :32:52. | |
this too? Look, not in concrete terms, but I think it would make | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
sense. There is an eagerness in the UK to get this done and they went | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
conceded outside the formal negotiations and I think the feeling | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
is within the EU the same approach has to be taken so it could well be | :33:06. | :33:08. | |
that has taken off the table quickly and then the EU knuckles down and | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
work out how it's going to negotiate but you are right. I think we can | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
expect a lag until proper negotiations begin. We've got to | :33:19. | :33:22. | |
expect to get the elections out of way first. Until the summer, | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
actually. There was a tussle going on here between the council, the | :33:28. | :33:31. | |
leaders, and the commission about the priorities and certainly the | :33:32. | :33:36. | |
feeling of the commission want this issue around money sorted very early | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
on. They think there is this bill, the numbers are disputed, perhaps, | :33:42. | :33:44. | |
and it needs to be settled before you can move onto other aspects of a | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
negotiation including a possible parallel talks on traditional trade | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
agreement. What's going to be fascinating of the next few weeks is | :33:53. | :33:55. | |
trying to work out who is winning that fight between the institutions | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
in the European Union as they approach this negotiation. Thank you | :34:00. | :34:02. | |
very much, good to talk to you in Brussels. Ben finishes on what is | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
going to be putting the EU reciprocal rights to one side and | :34:07. | :34:12. | |
the British government has become confident it can do a good deal on | :34:13. | :34:16. | |
that, but then nothing else. There is then, we've done that, on the | :34:17. | :34:22. | |
other hand, this demand between the Europeans saying you have got to | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
saddle the Brexit divorce bill before we talk about free trade. If | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
you speak to our government is a deal-breaker and they won't do that. | :34:31. | :34:33. | |
They want the two things to go in parallel. At the same time, there's | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
no way the British government will get itself into a situation where it | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
says how much do you want? Call it 30, said Lon 45, dear is a large | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
cheque and let's talk about future terms. It's a nonstarter. The reason | :34:49. | :34:55. | |
the government has talked in much blunter terms about no deal being | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
better than a bad deal, preparing people for the possibility of hard | :35:01. | :35:06. | |
Brexit, the reality is, which the analysis illustrator, if it was a | :35:07. | :35:09. | |
straightforward deal between Germany and the UK, that's not | :35:10. | :35:15. | |
straightforward but much easier to envisage how such a deal could be | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
concluded. The Germans are terrified of the eurozone being disrupted. The | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
eurozone debt machine, 75% of it, is run out of London, so they want... | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
They essentially don't want the Eurozone settlements disturbed at | :35:31. | :35:36. | |
least not in the short term, but it becomes apparent from the European | :35:37. | :35:39. | |
Parliament is saying that even if you get a deal like that done, and | :35:40. | :35:45. | |
Germany and Britain, but two largest competitors agree, it can go to the | :35:46. | :35:48. | |
European Parliament and be voted down, so I think the government have | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
consciously prepared people for the possibility of chaos on the | :35:54. | :35:59. | |
continent and a deal, even if it agreed, somehow being vetoed. The | :36:00. | :36:05. | |
way ahead is as clear as mud. Yes, life in politics is, located but we | :36:06. | :36:09. | |
haven't seen anything yet with the interests of all institutions and | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
the 27 nations all quarrelling with one another and, of course, if you | :36:15. | :36:17. | |
turn around to the EU and say we're not interested in settling the bill, | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
much of it for the pensions of British people who have worked in | :36:22. | :36:25. | |
the EU and much of it is also for the costs of ongoing EU programmes | :36:26. | :36:28. | |
in Britain which won't wrap up overnight... That we could deal | :36:29. | :36:34. | |
with. We don't know about the pensions. It will be put at the | :36:35. | :36:37. | |
difficult for a government to agree to a massive bill for pensions for | :36:38. | :36:40. | |
EU bureaucrats whose pensions are three times the average wages in | :36:41. | :36:45. | |
Britain. I'm not saying it's not difficult but if you're standing | :36:46. | :36:48. | |
firm and saying we're not going to cooperate, than the one thing you | :36:49. | :36:51. | |
did from those 27 nations is the feeling that we are not just an | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
almighty irritant that is delaying everything they want to do with the | :36:56. | :37:00. | |
EU over the next couple of years. I think it is accepted that we will | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
have to settle, but in what order it happens? What's impossible to | :37:06. | :37:11. | |
envisage is the government paying the money before it has any idea | :37:12. | :37:15. | |
what the deal is. The money will become a Thorogood payment to access | :37:16. | :37:23. | |
payment to EU access -- sorry but payment. There's a difference | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
between three years, for his contribution from the UK which | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
settles the programmes we got into before the referendum. A big | :37:34. | :37:36. | |
difference between that and an ongoing payment. I think that is | :37:37. | :37:42. | |
probably, year after year, payments something Tory backbenchers would | :37:43. | :37:43. | |
not stomach. Now it has asbestos, leaks, | :37:44. | :37:45. | |
fraying electrical cables and the whole place is at high risk | :37:46. | :37:51. | |
of a catastrophic failure. No, I'm not talking about the Daily | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
Politics studio but rather, that other World Heritage Site, | :37:56. | :37:58. | |
the Palace of Westminster, home Now today the Public Accounts | :37:59. | :38:00. | |
Committee has said the Palace should be vacated while urgent restoration | :38:01. | :38:13. | |
work is carried out. Parliament's spending watchdog | :38:14. | :38:15. | |
argues that moving MPs and peers down the road rather than keeping | :38:16. | :38:17. | |
them on site during a renovation is the most economic | :38:18. | :38:20. | |
and efficient option. The Public Accounts Committee | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
is backing a call by a joint parliamentary committee for a full | :38:25. | :38:27. | |
decant of the palace, meaning it would be closed for six | :38:28. | :38:29. | |
years while work is carried out. This option, which would see MPs | :38:30. | :38:41. | |
move into a temporary debating chamber in the Department of Health | :38:42. | :38:44. | |
and peers to the QE2 conference centre, would | :38:45. | :38:47. | |
cost around ?4 billion. A partial decant - | :38:48. | :38:57. | |
vacating first the Commons and then the Lords - | :38:58. | :39:01. | |
would take 11 years and add approximately | :39:02. | :39:04. | |
?500 million to the cost. While keeping everyone on site | :39:05. | :39:13. | |
during the repairs would mean it was 32 years before | :39:14. | :39:19. | |
the work was completed. The PAC pointed out that also | :39:20. | :39:21. | |
between ?50 million and ?60 million was already being spent | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
on maintaining the building every year and urged parliamentarians | :39:27. | :39:29. | |
to have a vote on the options sooner rather than later, pointing out that | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
further delays may add up to ?85 million a year to the bill | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
for capital costs. And I'm joined now by the chair | :39:38. | :39:48. | |
of the Public Accounts And the Conservative MP | :39:49. | :39:53. | |
Shailesh Vara, who wants MPs to remain in the Palace, | :39:54. | :39:56. | |
moving over to the House of Lords The cheapest option and the quickest | :39:57. | :40:13. | |
option, if it could be described as cheap, is for everybody to get out, | :40:14. | :40:19. | |
right? Absolutely. That would take how long? The estimate is six years | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
but you've got to make the decision in principle. The full business case | :40:25. | :40:27. | |
we worked out will deal with this uncertain issue but we've known, | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
having major projects that the Public Accounts Committee looks at, | :40:33. | :40:35. | |
there's good evidence to do it in one hit, rather than dribble it out | :40:36. | :40:39. | |
over a long period of time, and that sort of thing will add costs just | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
like if you had a house extension. If the cost of moving the peers out | :40:45. | :40:50. | |
and moving the MPs to the Lords while you get on with all of it, | :40:51. | :40:53. | |
that side of the Palace, I'd put this in quotes, only 500 million, it | :40:54. | :41:00. | |
would be advertised over 11 years now, so it's about 50 million a | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
year, which, in the scheme of things, given the spending, is not | :41:05. | :41:13. | |
huge, but that symbolically be more acceptable that the MPs would stay | :41:14. | :41:18. | |
in a chamber which looks a bit like the one they have got, just rather | :41:19. | :41:24. | |
more glittery? These are not actual costs, let's be care about that. It | :41:25. | :41:28. | |
means they have done some work to analyse what the costs will be and | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
to extrapolate like that, quite robustly, but to do a proper | :41:34. | :41:36. | |
business case on the project you can't be sure of all of these | :41:37. | :41:39. | |
figures. They are pretty robust as they can be at this stage which is | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
why we need to settle on one because the cost of doing the business case | :41:44. | :41:46. | |
is quite something. From our experience, get on with it. | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
Crucially, make a decision. A bit like the one we've taken for the | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
third runway at Heathrow. Exactly, you raise the case in point. We have | :41:56. | :41:59. | |
a bit of a habit of delaying long-term decisions but we got to | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
get on with it. What is your view? It needs to be done urgently, but | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
when you've got an eight acre site, there is room for Parliament to set | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
on the premises, on the Palace, while work is being carried out. All | :42:14. | :42:19. | |
of Parliament? I think both houses Oskars Melbardis addressed one has | :42:20. | :42:24. | |
has a footprint. That important for a number of reasons. At the time of | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
Brexit, in the years after Brexit, we will be out there on the | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
international scene trying to curry favour, make closer friendships with | :42:34. | :42:35. | |
other countries, secure favourable trade agreements and where will we | :42:36. | :42:42. | |
be operating from? Basically a Portakabin in the courtyard of the | :42:43. | :42:46. | |
Department of the government, and also it's important to remember that | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
in the longer run, the costs are neutral whether we decamped or we do | :42:52. | :42:59. | |
it quickly. Clarify one thing. I understand the plan that you get the | :43:00. | :43:05. | |
Lords to move, because nobody really cares where they go, and you move | :43:06. | :43:09. | |
the Commons into their chamber but if you keep both, what would you do | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
with them? That's one of the options, Andrew. You have raised it. | :43:14. | :43:19. | |
If you can't move the Commons into the Lords and the Lords into the | :43:20. | :43:22. | |
Commons, where would they go? The other option is keep both of them | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
and Westminster Hall could be an option. It is vast and massive and | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
the reason that the joint committee report says we shouldn't have the | :43:33. | :43:38. | |
House of Commons there is the slabs on the floor are weak. That is an | :43:39. | :43:42. | |
absurd reason. It's been around for a long time. As far as the roof is | :43:43. | :43:49. | |
concerned, it is so high, they can conveniently build a dome around it. | :43:50. | :43:55. | |
Within. Last time we did that it was a real success! I want to get your | :43:56. | :44:02. | |
response. What do you make of that? It's a nice idea but it's really | :44:03. | :44:05. | |
impractical for the Westminster will, by the time you add the | :44:06. | :44:08. | |
equipment to support everybody, there are structural issues. And it | :44:09. | :44:15. | |
is a World Heritage site, that's the oldest most historic part of the | :44:16. | :44:18. | |
Palace. The government is responsible for the World Heritage | :44:19. | :44:24. | |
site and it is an internationally iconic building, so it unthinkable | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
we don't do anything about it. Doing nothing is not an option but we need | :44:29. | :44:34. | |
to move on. Your suggestion is very complicated and could be very | :44:35. | :44:37. | |
costly. It does mean the building would effectively be at a full | :44:38. | :44:40. | |
commission for at least 11 years whereas the do it fast option is the | :44:41. | :44:46. | |
public could get back into it quicker, and is for the public, too, | :44:47. | :44:52. | |
not just MPs. Its tax payers money. Their time estimates are based on | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
one shift per day, 95. If they did three shifts, and much of the work | :44:57. | :45:01. | |
is underground, cables and electable cables and so on, they will have to | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
work with lights anyway, so the time frame can be shortened | :45:07. | :45:09. | |
substantially. The other important thing to remember if I'm saying we | :45:10. | :45:15. | |
do this this summer. The full decamped option says we should all | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
decamped in six years' time and in the meantime, we continue to spend | :45:20. | :45:23. | |
?600 million for patch up work and it is a complete waste of money. It | :45:24. | :45:26. | |
would be crazy to start this summer because they got a full properly | :45:27. | :45:32. | |
worked out spec. You can start some of the work. If you are building an | :45:33. | :45:35. | |
extension at home, you wouldn't allow people to shift the agenda. | :45:36. | :45:38. | |
You would have a clear spec. There is other work going on. That's | :45:39. | :45:49. | |
partly because we haven't made the decision up to now and we can't be | :45:50. | :45:52. | |
held responsible. We need to plan it. I want to come back to the | :45:53. | :45:58. | |
decision process in a moment. Let me get Jenni's reaction? I'm in almost | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
full hearted agreement with you, which doesn't happen very often. I | :46:03. | :46:09. | |
find myself thinking that you are absolute lit right that it matters | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
particularly at a tame of Brexit. Do you think both Chambers would stay | :46:14. | :46:19. | |
or move out? Inclined to think, to let go of all the rituals that go | :46:20. | :46:25. | |
along with Parliament, is part of Britain's sense of who we are and | :46:26. | :46:29. | |
what matters. They'll be in a different thing. It's like a | :46:30. | :46:35. | |
Portakabin. Not really. Slight exaggeration but it's worth some | :46:36. | :46:38. | |
delay in order to have the continuity of keeping the Commons in | :46:39. | :46:41. | |
one part of the Palace of Westminster. I'm not being | :46:42. | :46:44. | |
knowledgeable here, just emotional. A lot of decisions are. You could | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
also, as part of deech luges and making sure Parliament reengages | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
with the country, you could move the Lords to Scunthorpe. Steady on! I | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
have to say... That would be expensive. I find myself disagreeing | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
with Jenni on the question of ritual and I never thought I would say | :47:03. | :47:05. | |
this. 20 years ago I would have even rated that place but I would go for | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
a complete demolition actually. Of all the buildings? Apart from | :47:11. | :47:18. | |
Westminster Hall. Westminster Hall where Charles I was tried and | :47:19. | :47:22. | |
William Wallace. Wouldn't we end up with the international courts with | :47:23. | :47:25. | |
that, it's a World Heritage Site. I'm only half joking in that I think | :47:26. | :47:32. | |
that the people who work in that building overestimate, overstate the | :47:33. | :47:38. | |
public's affection for the building and I think a lot of the flummery | :47:39. | :47:43. | |
that takes place in the Commons under the name of ritual and | :47:44. | :47:50. | |
tradition is actually like a 19th version of the 17th century fake | :47:51. | :47:54. | |
version. I find myself in the unusual position of being in a | :47:55. | :47:58. | |
modernised process. But you still knead a building to do all the work | :47:59. | :48:08. | |
in. The building is not going to be knocked down, despite what Mr Martin | :48:09. | :48:13. | |
says. That may breach BBC impartiality rules but I think | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
that's a safe bet. We have enough problems with the existing options. | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
Tell us briefly, what is the process, is it the Commons that | :48:22. | :48:26. | |
determines this, both Houses determine it, what happens? | :48:27. | :48:29. | |
Ultimately because the Commons is the primary chamber, but the | :48:30. | :48:32. | |
Government determines when the vote will take place and how that vote | :48:33. | :48:37. | |
will happen. If you go for more than one option now, what we were | :48:38. | :48:39. | |
concerned about is that then you have to work up two detailed | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
business plans rather than just one. Do you do one at the same time or | :48:44. | :48:48. | |
the other, or go for all the evidence so it shows to us which is | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
the most cost effective and start work on that. When do you expect the | :48:53. | :48:58. | |
decision to be taken? There have been indications that it could be | :48:59. | :49:00. | |
before Easter but the Government have lots on their plate at the | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
moment, I'm not holding my breath. We have got to move on, we cannot | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
keep delaying the decision. Thank you very much. | :49:09. | :49:11. | |
This May, people living in six city regions will get to vote | :49:12. | :49:14. | |
These are new posts the government is insisting areas have to have | :49:15. | :49:18. | |
if they want powers transferred from Westminster to | :49:19. | :49:20. | |
In the West Midlands, the mayor will have an annual budget | :49:21. | :49:26. | |
of around 40 million and responsibility for transport, | :49:27. | :49:29. | |
housing and job creation projects over an area stretching | :49:30. | :49:31. | |
Jenny Kumah's been to Birmingham to meet the people | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
?92 million of skills and transport projects. It's all parts of plans to | :49:37. | :50:05. | |
boost the region 's flagging economy. And fuel the so-called | :50:06. | :50:11. | |
Midlands engine. Philip Hammond also went to Birmingham city centre to | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
see this man. He's a former boss of John Lewis. And standing as the | :50:17. | :50:19. | |
Conservative candidate for West Midlands Mayor. Iver and John Lewis | :50:20. | :50:27. | |
for Lily ten years, enjoyed a hugely, but this is a real | :50:28. | :50:30. | |
opportunity so I want to lead the region I grew up in the region I | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
return to. You got a target to eradicate youth unemployment by the | :50:36. | :50:39. | |
end of your term in 2020. Yes, that is achievable. We've reduced it by | :50:40. | :50:45. | |
20% over the last four years. The way we will achieve that is by | :50:46. | :50:50. | |
focusing new money, new activities on that. But this is a traditionally | :50:51. | :50:56. | |
strong Labour area. And labour is fielding one of their most | :50:57. | :50:59. | |
experienced politicians. He used to be a Birmingham MP who stood down | :51:00. | :51:03. | |
beef because you want to be the city's Mayor but the election never | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
happened because people voted in the referendum against the idea of | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
having one. He's now an MEP and his mayoral campaign slogan has echoes | :51:14. | :51:19. | |
of the leave campaign. I've been using this phrase for seven years, | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
is because it was Sisley expresses exactly what it is that we are and | :51:24. | :51:29. | |
we need to do. If it was appropriated last year by some other | :51:30. | :51:32. | |
people for another purpose, that's not my problem and I'm not going to | :51:33. | :51:35. | |
stop using the phrase that I have been using for years to say what has | :51:36. | :51:41. | |
to be said about my place. We are going to take back control of the | :51:42. | :51:45. | |
West Midlands from London. Jeremy Corbyn, is yet help or hindrance to | :51:46. | :51:51. | |
your campaign? My concern is not who is the leader of the Labour Party. | :51:52. | :51:56. | |
But why are huge chunks of our public services being determined by | :51:57. | :51:58. | |
people in London who don't know anything about the West Midlands? | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
Other parties are determined not to make a two horse race between | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
Conservatives and Labour. Essentially we've had a few | :52:07. | :52:10. | |
surprises in politics recently. Brexit and Trump. Was always a | :52:11. | :52:15. | |
chance we might make a lucky third one and I'm absolutely in it to win | :52:16. | :52:20. | |
it. The Mayor will chair the combined authority board and if we | :52:21. | :52:24. | |
get a Labour Mayor my view is nothing will change. If we get a | :52:25. | :52:27. | |
Conservative Mayor nothing will happen. If we get a Lib Dem Mayor I | :52:28. | :52:32. | |
believe I can be a real unifying voice, I can bring together a | :52:33. | :52:36. | |
cross-party consensus. I think they should consider voting Green because | :52:37. | :52:41. | |
traditionally Labour have let people down here. If you look at the map 25 | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
years ago the least well-off areas and a map now, it is completely | :52:46. | :52:49. | |
unchanged. I don't think any of the other candidates explain a position | :52:50. | :52:55. | |
which appeals to ordinary people. That's what the Communists are | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
standing. That's all the politics of how much of the candidates know | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
about the local area? We decided to test them with our West Midlands | :53:05. | :53:08. | |
quiz. The first motorised funeral was held in Coventry. Funeral? But a | :53:09. | :53:15. | |
good claim to fame so let's go for true. Correct. True. Wolverhampton | :53:16. | :53:25. | |
is the youngest city in Europe would under 25 accounting for nearly 40% | :53:26. | :53:30. | |
of the population? I would say false, I think Birmingham is younger | :53:31. | :53:37. | |
than one Bampton. -- Wolverhampton. Correct. Lawn tennis was first | :53:38. | :53:40. | |
played and invented in deadly over 100 years ago. That is false. | :53:41. | :53:48. | |
Edgbaston. Probably false, it sounds a soft southern game to me. The | :53:49. | :53:52. | |
answer to who would be the first West Midlands Mayor will be | :53:53. | :53:55. | |
available after the vote on May the 4th. | :53:56. | :53:58. | |
And we're joined now by the BBC's Midlands Political | :53:59. | :54:08. | |
I think there's a lot of interest in this Mayor for the West Midlands | :54:09. | :54:15. | |
because you seem to have a real race on your hands there, don't you? We | :54:16. | :54:19. | |
absolutely do. There is a sense some of the other ones in major cities | :54:20. | :54:23. | |
north of here look a little bit like a foregone conclusion whereas here, | :54:24. | :54:29. | |
to some extent, yes, this is the first of a new kind of election, | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
there is nothing directly, no particular experience from the past | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
to draw on, although the police and crime commission on elections are a | :54:38. | :54:42. | |
little bit like it. It is a much more personality focused campaign, | :54:43. | :54:45. | |
so the usual party political rankings, are not a complete guide | :54:46. | :54:50. | |
as they have been in the past about, having said that, yes, we have a | :54:51. | :54:54. | |
genuine contest here between some well-known candidates with | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
reasonably high profiles locally and nationally. We are hearing | :55:00. | :55:05. | |
expressions of confidence certainly from the Conservative and Labour | :55:06. | :55:08. | |
sides, the Conservatives point out that some research by the Centre for | :55:09. | :55:14. | |
cities suggest that they only need a 4% swing to them from the way the | :55:15. | :55:21. | |
results stacked up in 2015 general election for them to win this one, | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
but Labour on the other hand say if you simply look at the vote from a | :55:26. | :55:33. | |
general election, you find this is strongly a Labour area but, as we | :55:34. | :55:38. | |
know, party politics have moved on a lot since then. Patcher, do people | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
feel this is a coherent region with Birmingham at the heart of it? -- | :55:43. | :55:48. | |
Patrick. Do people in Wolverhampton feel they belong to the same region | :55:49. | :55:53. | |
as the people in Coventry? The politicians make it a region but do | :55:54. | :55:58. | |
the people? That's a very important point because for the political | :55:59. | :56:01. | |
leaders to whom you refer to, to get this historic agreement as it was | :56:02. | :56:06. | |
hailed at the time, bring together the great tribal fiefdoms of the | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
Black Country and Birmingham, it was seen as a thing at the top but | :56:11. | :56:14. | |
frankly, there was great resistance, not just amongst the people, but | :56:15. | :56:19. | |
local councillors. You are accused of re-venturing into the | :56:20. | :56:22. | |
relationship between turkeys and Christmas but nevertheless you have | :56:23. | :56:25. | |
put your finger very much on point and the key thing to remember in all | :56:26. | :56:30. | |
of this is David Cameron and George Osborne said if you wanted the | :56:31. | :56:36. | |
maximum level of devolution, you had to have what they call the focal | :56:37. | :56:40. | |
point for accountability right at the top around whom people could | :56:41. | :56:45. | |
rally, and the evidence of... In fact two referendums in Birmingham | :56:46. | :56:49. | |
and one in Coventry, the experience of an elected Mayor in Stoke were | :56:50. | :56:52. | |
they had a referendum and voted it down, is that there is active | :56:53. | :56:58. | |
popular hostility to this, so we have the ironic situation that in | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
the name of local democracy, the government has imposed what looks to | :57:04. | :57:06. | |
many critics like a top-down solution. OK, Patrick, it's good to | :57:07. | :57:12. | |
have a race on your hands so we look forward to coming back to and you | :57:13. | :57:14. | |
can tell us how the race is going. Just time now for a bite-size | :57:15. | :57:15. | |
review of the political Jeremy Corbyn's tax return raised | :57:16. | :57:18. | |
more questions than it answered. It seemed he'd missed off his pay | :57:19. | :57:27. | |
for being leader of the opposition. Labour said it was there under | :57:28. | :57:33. | |
a different heading. A two billion euro takeover | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
of Vauxhall prompted job worries but the new boss said its two UK | :57:38. | :57:39. | |
factories will stay open. Michael Heseltine was one of 13 | :57:40. | :57:44. | |
Tory peers who demanded To ensure that Parliament | :57:45. | :57:47. | |
is the ultimate custodian Ministers were defeated, | :57:48. | :57:54. | |
and Lord Heseltine was fired PMQs was a riot for the PM | :57:55. | :57:59. | |
despite Jeremy Corbyn's efforts to embarrass her over social care | :58:00. | :58:05. | |
funding deals in Surrey. And, no surprises, | :58:06. | :58:10. | |
promised Philip Hammond. Inside the red box | :58:11. | :58:15. | |
there was a surprise for his own backbenchers - | :58:16. | :58:17. | |
a rise in national insurance. There's just time before we go | :58:18. | :58:29. | |
to find out the answer to our quiz. Today EU leaders are meeting | :58:30. | :58:34. | |
in Brussels in the new Europa So the question was what has that | :58:35. | :58:37. | |
building been nicknamed? they call of the Space Egg, I don't | :58:38. | :58:50. | |
know why. Anyway that's enough for today. | :58:51. | :58:52. | |
I'll be back on Sunday with the Sunday Politics. | :58:53. | :58:54. | |
The thing that's so clear is that it's 100% honest. | :58:55. | :59:18. | |
We're right in the middle of the action. | :59:19. | :59:21. |