20/03/2017 Daily Politics


20/03/2017

Jo Coburn is joined by Eric Pickles, Caroline Flint, the IFG's Jill Rutter, Douglas Carswell and Rosa Monckton. Laura Hughes and George Eaton look at the political week ahead.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 20/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:36.:00:40.

Theresa May has named the date - she says she'll trigger Article 50

:00:41.:00:43.

That will fire the starting gun on our departure

:00:44.:00:48.

from the EU and begin two years of intense negotiation.

:00:49.:00:51.

Here's what else is coming in today's programme...

:00:52.:00:55.

Labour's Deputy Leader Tom Watson accuses left-wing supporters

:00:56.:00:58.

of Jeremy Corbyn of plotting to seize control of the party.

:00:59.:01:05.

Mr Watson says the grassroots Momentum group is in cahoots

:01:06.:01:07.

George Osborne insists he can still be an MP and edit

:01:08.:01:15.

But the Ethics watchdog says rules on MPs' second

:01:16.:01:25.

Should people with learning disabilities be allowed to work

:01:26.:01:28.

The businesswoman and campaigner Rosa Monckton says the rules

:01:29.:01:32.

are an obstacle to some, rather than a protection.

:01:33.:01:35.

And are the Cornish at risk of ethnic oppression?

:01:36.:01:39.

The Council of Europe, which upholds human rights,

:01:40.:01:41.

says the Government needs to do more for Cornish people.

:01:42.:01:51.

All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole

:01:52.:01:53.

of the programme today, two giants of the Westminster

:01:54.:01:56.

scene - former Cabinet minister Eric Pickles,

:01:57.:01:57.

and the former Labour minister Caroline Flint.

:01:58.:01:59.

Some breaking news in the last hour - the Government has announced

:02:00.:02:17.

that it will trigger Article 50 on Wednesday 29th March.

:02:18.:02:19.

Let's talk to our political correspondent Vicki Young.

:02:20.:02:21.

So what is going to happen? It seems a long time since the

:02:22.:02:26.

referendum in June but Theresa May always said she wanted to trigger

:02:27.:02:29.

article 50 by the end of March and she will do that. After Prime

:02:30.:02:32.

Minister's Questions next week she will make a statement to the House

:02:33.:02:36.

of Commons and then formally send a letter to Donald Tusk, the president

:02:37.:02:40.

of the European Council. That is what happens, of course many other

:02:41.:02:44.

questions then about the negotiations themselves. It means

:02:45.:02:48.

there is a two-year clock ticking before the UK leads the European

:02:49.:02:52.

Union, and in that time both sides will try

:02:53.:03:12.

to get a deal. What it involves, of course, is open to some speculation,

:03:13.:03:16.

but I think at this point Theresa May getting her way, fulfilling the

:03:17.:03:18.

timetable she said she would, despite some bumps along the way,

:03:19.:03:21.

the Supreme Court of course made the Government bring dinner bill, it

:03:22.:03:23.

went through Parliament, changes were made by the laws, but in the

:03:24.:03:26.

end she will get her way and trigger Article 50 by next Wednesday.

:03:27.:03:28.

You mentioned the letter she will send to the European Union, take us

:03:29.:03:31.

through a bit of a process that will happen on the European Union site?

:03:32.:03:33.

We have had some words dropped saying the commission is ready to

:03:34.:03:35.

begin the Brexit negotiations, because both sides want to say they

:03:36.:03:38.

are in control. Absolutely, until now Theresa May

:03:39.:03:40.

has been in charge of the timetable but as soon as she sends a letter,

:03:41.:03:44.

in many ways attention turns to Brussels. Donald Tusk has said they

:03:45.:03:48.

may be ready to give some response to the letter within 48 hours or so,

:03:49.:03:54.

it will be the European Union Council who gives the negotiating

:03:55.:03:59.

mandate to the commission to set forward their priorities, so we will

:04:00.:04:02.

get to know more about the priorities on both sides. Both sides

:04:03.:04:05.

have talked about things like the right of UK citizens -- EU citizens

:04:06.:04:11.

in the UK, Brits living abroad, but there are things they do not agree

:04:12.:04:15.

on, the so-called divorce bill, for example, will Theresa May be handed

:04:16.:04:20.

a huge bill, saying this is what the UK owes and unless you agree to pay

:04:21.:04:24.

it we will not have talks at all? Will they discuss the extricating of

:04:25.:04:29.

the relationship alongside the future relationship, the trade deal,

:04:30.:04:32.

for example? All these questions unanswered but the 27 other European

:04:33.:04:38.

countries will have a summit in the next few weeks then negotiations can

:04:39.:04:41.

start, although people pointing to things like the French and German

:04:42.:04:45.

elections which may delay it, but the timetable is not that long. Two

:04:46.:04:49.

years sounds like a long time but the person in charge of negotiations

:04:50.:04:54.

for the EU has already said he thinks the re-met needs to be made

:04:55.:04:58.

by October 2000 and 18. Eric Pickles, this is a big moment

:04:59.:05:02.

whether you were in favour of it or not. Your reaction to the fact that

:05:03.:05:08.

a date has now been set? It is a massive moment, I'm pleased we are

:05:09.:05:12.

getting on with it, it is right that they act was unamended, but if we

:05:13.:05:16.

know anything about our friends in the European Union it is a five to

:05:17.:05:20.

midnight organisation so I'm not as confident that everything will be

:05:21.:05:24.

sorted out so quickly. Do you agree that it could be one of those

:05:25.:05:33.

marathon, last days of the negotiation timetable in two years'

:05:34.:05:36.

time, it will be a marathon talks between all sides before a deal is

:05:37.:05:39.

done? My view is that over the next two years there will have to be a

:05:40.:05:42.

lot of work done and that the excitement starts in some respects,

:05:43.:05:44.

the detail, but I think at the end of the two years we are only likely

:05:45.:05:47.

to have the headlines. I think after those two years, there will be maybe

:05:48.:05:51.

five, six years of transitioning into every area of policy, which is

:05:52.:05:57.

why even Theresa May before now has mentioned a transition period. I

:05:58.:06:00.

think you are right, there will be a lot left until five to midnight but

:06:01.:06:06.

don't think it will be over in two years' time, they will be discussion

:06:07.:06:10.

for years to come. In terms of a reflection on the Labour side,

:06:11.:06:13.

should there have been more opposition? I feel the Labour

:06:14.:06:16.

position is the right one, it happens to be the one that I

:06:17.:06:20.

believe, but we have to accept the result of the referendum. At the

:06:21.:06:24.

same time I believe our position was right during the discussion of the

:06:25.:06:27.

bill to raise concerns about the fact that EU nationals working here,

:06:28.:06:31.

paying their taxes, do not know what will happen to them, and I think now

:06:32.:06:35.

that we have got a date next week for the letter to be sent, I hope

:06:36.:06:38.

Theresa May will stand by her word, which is to give that particular

:06:39.:06:43.

area of policy priority. Do you agree

:06:44.:06:53.

that we are unlikely to get beyond what Caroline calls the headline,

:06:54.:06:57.

the divorce settlement, and in terms of having a free-trade deal there

:06:58.:06:59.

will have to be interim proposals so that there is no cliff edge? I think

:07:00.:07:02.

all the things your reporter talked about, the eventual bill, the

:07:03.:07:04.

working out of a trade agreement, the working out about the new

:07:05.:07:07.

relationship, if it will be meaningful, has to take place

:07:08.:07:11.

roughly at the same time because all three are interrelated. But I do

:07:12.:07:14.

think it is going to be very complex and I do think it is going to take

:07:15.:07:18.

an awful lot of time, but I do think that we might not see people fully

:07:19.:07:24.

engaged in this on the continent within the European Union until well

:07:25.:07:28.

into the autumn of this year. We will leave it there, but that is the

:07:29.:07:31.

date that will fire the starting gun on the two years of negotiations of

:07:32.:07:37.

Britain leaving the EU, that is March the 29th, that is next

:07:38.:07:40.

Wednesday, a week on Wednesday is when Theresa May, the Prime

:07:41.:07:42.

Minister, will trigger Article 50. Labour's deputy leader, Tom Watson,

:07:43.:07:45.

says left-wing supporters of Jeremy Corbyn are involved

:07:46.:07:47.

in a plot which could destroy Mr Watson was reacting to claims

:07:48.:07:49.

that the grassroots Momentum group is planning a takeover in a secret

:07:50.:07:55.

deal with the boss of the Unite Yesterday's Observer newspaper

:07:56.:07:59.

published a recording of the chair of Momentum,

:08:00.:08:04.

Jon Lansman, in which he claimed that Unite would affiliate

:08:05.:08:08.

to Momentum if Len McCluskey Let's have a listen

:08:09.:08:11.

to that recording. Tom Watson has been touring

:08:12.:08:41.

the studios this morning. He says the intentions

:08:42.:08:46.

of Momentum are clear. I think Jon Lansman's secret plan

:08:47.:08:51.

threatens the very electoral existence of the Labour Party,

:08:52.:08:53.

which is why I'm speaking out, We're facing an early general

:08:54.:08:56.

election, and yet you've got a very powerful faction leader saying

:08:57.:09:00.

we need to take control That's not going to get us

:09:01.:09:02.

anywhere on the doorsteps, We're joined now by Momentum

:09:03.:09:06.

activist Rachel Godfrey-Wood. You have heard Tom Watson's words,

:09:07.:09:19.

that there is a secret plot to take over the Labour Party. What did you

:09:20.:09:26.

say as a member of Momentum? I find this pretty disappointing, all

:09:27.:09:29.

Momentum has done since we came into existence is to encourage new Labour

:09:30.:09:33.

members to be as active as possible in the party and build up a party

:09:34.:09:37.

capable of providing a general alternative in this country, and it

:09:38.:09:40.

is disappointing when you get figures from the established Labour

:09:41.:09:48.

hierarchy basically talking about this total nonstory. You say it is a

:09:49.:09:53.

total nonstory but Tom Watson is claiming, and deep you listen to Jon

:09:54.:09:57.

Lansman of Momentum, he says Unite, a big union, will affiliate to

:09:58.:10:02.

Momentum and fully participate in Momentum as for the Communication

:10:03.:10:06.

Workers Union. Is that not going to happen? I have no knowledge

:10:07.:10:10.

whatsoever of any discussions, obviously we are a left-wing

:10:11.:10:13.

organisation, we want to work with trade unions because we are one of

:10:14.:10:17.

the most fundamentally unequal countries in the world... So you

:10:18.:10:22.

cannot rule it out? I think it is the wrong focus, trade unions are

:10:23.:10:27.

being under attack, we have the most repressive trade union laws in the

:10:28.:10:30.

country, people in those trade unions want to work with Momentum

:10:31.:10:35.

and to me that makes total sense and think it is disingenuous to portray

:10:36.:10:42.

that is there is something out of line about it. You say it would be

:10:43.:10:49.

logical for a union like Unite to affiliate its upward Momentum, this

:10:50.:10:52.

grassroots organisation within Labour. But why would Unite and the

:10:53.:10:56.

Communication Workers Union want to divert their political funds away

:10:57.:10:59.

from the Labour Party's organising for local and general election

:11:00.:11:03.

campaigns towards Momentum, which we know is aiming to fight within the

:11:04.:11:10.

Labour Party? Obviously it is up to trade unions within Unite to take

:11:11.:11:14.

these types of decisions, but I suspect there will be people who

:11:15.:11:18.

understand there is a relationship between defending the industrial

:11:19.:11:20.

interests of those workers and also a political struggle which means

:11:21.:11:23.

having a Labour Party which can genuinely fight for workers' rights,

:11:24.:11:27.

and unfortunately that is not what has existed in the past,

:11:28.:11:30.

particularly when people like Tom Watson had an awful lot of influence

:11:31.:11:36.

in the party. What have you got to be worried about? Isn't this just

:11:37.:11:42.

the case of a union affiliated itself to a grassroots movement in

:11:43.:11:46.

Labour that wants to fight on behalf of the workers? Can I just say Tom

:11:47.:11:51.

was elected at the same time as Jeremy Corbyn, so if Tom is an

:11:52.:11:56.

establishment figure then so is Jeremy. I think Jeremy and others

:11:57.:12:01.

will be concerned from what they have heard on the tape because what

:12:02.:12:05.

is being said by Jon Lansman goes totally against what he promised

:12:06.:12:09.

would happen within Momentum. It was promised that anybody who was not a

:12:10.:12:13.

Labour Party member would not be part of Momentum, and what is quite

:12:14.:12:19.

clear from that tape is Jon is saying, we are not going to get with

:12:20.:12:23.

people from Trotsky and other fringe parties in the country, and that

:12:24.:12:26.

goes against everything he promised Jeromy and others, and I have to say

:12:27.:12:32.

what he be reassured Len McCluskey about. The worrying thing is to have

:12:33.:12:38.

a movement like Momentum which has Labour Party members in it but also

:12:39.:12:41.

a ragbag of other people from different parties and different

:12:42.:12:44.

priorities and what our priority is, which is trying to win a general

:12:45.:12:48.

election, which again Jon Lansman I understand that is getting in the

:12:49.:12:52.

way of their planning, planning to do what? Basically to take over the

:12:53.:12:57.

Labour Party. This is the statement from Unite. They say, they make

:12:58.:13:02.

clear it is exclusively for our executive Council to determine which

:13:03.:13:05.

organisations we affiliate to, there are no plans for Unite to affiliate

:13:06.:13:10.

to Momentum and, for the record, the general secretary Len McCluskey have

:13:11.:13:14.

never met Jon Lansman. Is this a nonstory by Tom Watson? It is a

:13:15.:13:20.

capable Jon Lansman has said at a meeting and for me the most worrying

:13:21.:13:24.

aspect is that Jon Lansman and others in Momentum promised to

:13:25.:13:27.

change the organisation to be one in which only Labour Party members

:13:28.:13:31.

could be part. Rachel has heard the tape, Jon Lansman goes against

:13:32.:13:35.

everything he promised and that must be absolutely disappointing for Jon

:13:36.:13:39.

and the Jeromy and others who have supported Momentum. I am

:13:40.:13:42.

disappointed along with them. What do you say to claims? Momentum's

:13:43.:13:48.

rules are totally clear, non-Labour members will not have membership

:13:49.:13:52.

rights, they cannot vote in elections, they cannot hold key

:13:53.:13:57.

positions. People in local Momentum groups can campaign and take part in

:13:58.:14:00.

broad campaigns in which you might have people in other parties, that

:14:01.:14:04.

is up to them. But you heard the tape, he is saying, I'm not going to

:14:05.:14:09.

kick anybody out, we have a plan, the general election is getting in

:14:10.:14:11.

the way of our planning. That doesn't sound, to me, like

:14:12.:14:19.

someone who has first and foremost caught the interest of not just the

:14:20.:14:22.

Labour Party but the people we seek to represent. What is the plan Jon

:14:23.:14:25.

Lansman is talking about? I don't know, I don't think this is

:14:26.:14:29.

fundamentally about plots or plans, this is about a organisation that

:14:30.:14:32.

wants to bring people into politics, get them engaged, because that is

:14:33.:14:36.

the only way the Labour Party will re-establish itself as a genuine

:14:37.:14:40.

power. Also in the tape Jon Lansman said the group should take control

:14:41.:14:44.

of regional Labour Parties and change selection rules for MPs and

:14:45.:14:50.

councillors. The party, as it stands, is fundamentally

:14:51.:14:56.

unbalanced... So that is the plan? On the National executive council

:14:57.:14:59.

you have 30 odd people and only six are democratically elected by the

:15:00.:15:03.

members, that is not particularly democratic so I think it is

:15:04.:15:07.

understandable but a lot of Labour members and Momentum members want to

:15:08.:15:11.

rebalance that, that is totally legitimate part of Labour Party

:15:12.:15:15.

politics. Isn't that what other groups do? John McDonnell was asked

:15:16.:15:18.

about this, the Shadow Chancellor, and he said that's what Progress

:15:19.:15:23.

does, what other Labour influencing groups do, they try change the

:15:24.:15:27.

direction of the party, isn't that what Momentum is doing? There is

:15:28.:15:31.

nothing wrong with different groups, we have lots of groups linked around

:15:32.:15:35.

environmental policy, health policy, to try to influence the party, but

:15:36.:15:40.

this is a very different nature, Progress you can only be a Labour

:15:41.:15:44.

Party member, we do not have parallel branches in our communities

:15:45.:15:49.

of Progress. What we have in Doncaster and elsewhere are Momentum

:15:50.:15:52.

groups and whether these people are members or not, and it is

:15:53.:15:56.

questionable now the Jon Lansman tape has been heard, there is entry

:15:57.:16:00.

is through Momentum into our party to influence from far left

:16:01.:16:03.

Trotskyist groups who could not get elected on their own platforms but

:16:04.:16:06.

are seeking to come to the Labour Party and this goes against

:16:07.:16:09.

everything that was promised to the leader of the Labour Party, Jeremy

:16:10.:16:13.

Corbyn. Do you deny that has been entry is into the Labour Party or

:16:14.:16:17.

attempt to control regional parties and change the candidates that are

:16:18.:16:22.

standing? The problem is organisations like Progress which

:16:23.:16:34.

have opened it up to the kind of big scale business which has no

:16:35.:16:36.

interest... That is ridiculous, Rachel. No interest in what the

:16:37.:16:38.

Labour Party have historically stood for. Are you wanting to change the

:16:39.:16:40.

leadership rules at conference? Would you like to see a change where

:16:41.:16:45.

it is, instead of 15% of the Parliamentary Labour Party, people

:16:46.:16:47.

like Caroline Flint can nominate people who go on the ballot, it

:16:48.:16:51.

would be 5%, thereby people perhaps on the right wing side of the Labour

:16:52.:16:56.

Party would have a left-wing candidate guaranteed on the ballot?

:16:57.:17:00.

We live in one of the most unequal countries in the world, in Momentum

:17:01.:17:04.

we would like to have leadership campaigns where the candidates can

:17:05.:17:07.

challenge those inequalities and I don't see why members of the

:17:08.:17:10.

Parliamentary Labour Party like Caroline should have

:17:11.:17:15.

Why should you have the right? We are a mainstream political party, we

:17:16.:17:23.

are not a Trotskyist party. I think it is important that members of

:17:24.:17:28.

Parliament have a say because at the end of the day it will be the person

:17:29.:17:32.

they will follow who will lead them in the chamber. To reduce it down to

:17:33.:17:37.

5% is quite ridiculous. What will you do about it? Tom Watson said

:17:38.:17:40.

it's a battle for the future existence of the party and he's

:17:41.:17:44.

sitting in a Shadow Cabinet meeting now to discuss it with John

:17:45.:17:48.

McDonnell. What would you be able to do? I think both John McDonnell and

:17:49.:17:54.

Jeremy Corbyn should be worried and concerned by what has been said by

:17:55.:17:57.

Jon Lansman reportedly over the weekend. I joined the Labour Party

:17:58.:18:02.

in 1979. I've been through the Labour Party through thick and thin.

:18:03.:18:07.

Its first and foremost my priority to win a general election. That's

:18:08.:18:12.

what we need to focus on. You mentioned a general election and at

:18:13.:18:16.

the weekend we spoke to Andrew Gwynne, the Labour coordinator. He

:18:17.:18:20.

said he would welcome a snap general election.

:18:21.:18:22.

If the government was to issue a motion in the Commons

:18:23.:18:25.

for an early election, the Labour Party would vote

:18:26.:18:27.

Well, it would be very difficult not to, Andrew.

:18:28.:18:30.

Because if the government wants to dissolve Parliament,

:18:31.:18:32.

wants a general election, we don't want the Tories

:18:33.:18:34.

We want to be in government, we want to have that

:18:35.:18:38.

opportunity to put that case to the British people.

:18:39.:18:43.

Is Labour ready for a snap general election if one were to be called?

:18:44.:18:48.

We should be ready for an election. We are getting ready for local

:18:49.:18:52.

council elections in May. For Theresa May, she may find herself in

:18:53.:18:56.

a difficult position because she might make the same mistake as

:18:57.:19:00.

Gordon Brown. Gordon Brown was still in gang dallying over an election

:19:01.:19:06.

and when it came to it, she lost. Like Gordon Brown, and I say this

:19:07.:19:12.

with respect, Theresa May does not have a mandate. We have seen

:19:13.:19:16.

policies on grammar schools, changes to policies on tax not in the Tory

:19:17.:19:20.

manifesto. She has Brexit to deal with. Theresa May should seek a

:19:21.:19:26.

mandate. It would make it much easier for her if she thinks she can

:19:27.:19:30.

gain seats at an election. I think she has a mandate from the people

:19:31.:19:35.

from the referendum. I think once Article 50 is triggered, I think the

:19:36.:19:42.

possibility of a general election disappears for at least two years.

:19:43.:19:46.

There can't be a snap general election because of the fixed

:19:47.:19:50.

Parliament act. Even if the Labour Party agreed to it, it would take

:19:51.:19:54.

some time. It wouldn't come if they voted in favour. I don't think at

:19:55.:19:58.

the moment they would want to be able to stop it. I think there are

:19:59.:20:02.

further reasons. I think Theresa May is driven by duty. She sees her

:20:03.:20:08.

primary duty to get a smooth transition out of the EU. If it

:20:09.:20:14.

comes, I'm very glad the Labour Party is ready for it, but I don't

:20:15.:20:17.

think there will be many of them left. I think everyone is ready for

:20:18.:20:19.

it. on Standards in Public Life has said

:20:20.:20:27.

he will look again at whether rules on MPs having second jobs need to be

:20:28.:20:31.

changed in light of Mr Osborne's new role at the London

:20:32.:20:35.

Evening Standard. MPs are allowed to have second jobs,

:20:36.:20:36.

but the Commons Code of Conduct states that they must not act

:20:37.:20:41.

as a "paid advocate". They do have to declare any payment

:20:42.:20:43.

for employment outside Parliament in the Register of Members'

:20:44.:20:46.

Financial Interests. The rules also state that Cabinet

:20:47.:20:47.

members must wait three months before they can accept any kind

:20:48.:20:50.

of paid employment, and they should not lobby existing ministers

:20:51.:20:53.

on behalf of any organisation that has employed them for two years

:20:54.:20:55.

after leaving office. The Parliamentary Commissioner

:20:56.:21:01.

for Standards - currently Kathryn Hudson -

:21:02.:21:03.

is tasked with looking The commissioner then reports any

:21:04.:21:05.

breaches of the Code of Conduct to the Committee on Standards -

:21:06.:21:10.

currently chaired by Labour's Kevin Barron -

:21:11.:21:12.

which then decides on a course of action to take against an MP,

:21:13.:21:15.

including recommending suspension from the Commons,

:21:16.:21:18.

if this is necessary. But it is up to the Committee

:21:19.:21:25.

on Standards in Public Life to advise the Prime Minister

:21:26.:21:29.

on ethical standards, and the chair of that committee,

:21:30.:21:31.

Lord Bew, told a Sunday paper this weekend that they would have

:21:32.:21:34.

to "look again at our rules" in light of George Osborne's

:21:35.:21:38.

appointment as editor Eric Pickles, Mr Osborne now has six

:21:39.:21:54.

jobs. Not just two, but six. Can he really effectively represent his

:21:55.:21:57.

constituents? I think that's a matter for him and it's a matter for

:21:58.:22:03.

his employers and his electorate. What do you think? I was as

:22:04.:22:09.

open-mouthed and gobsmacked as the rest of the country with the

:22:10.:22:13.

announcement. But if anyone can make it work, I suspect George can do so.

:22:14.:22:27.

He's a young guy. LAUGHTER I can't look you in the face! I

:22:28.:22:33.

can't see a reason why he can't do it whatever his age, six jobs! We

:22:34.:22:40.

know he's accepted this job as the editor of the Evening Standard. He

:22:41.:22:46.

has accepted a post as the adviser for US asset management Blackrock

:22:47.:22:52.

for ?650,000 per year. He also earns money on speeches and conferences.

:22:53.:22:56.

He is also a fellow at the Washington -based McCain Institute

:22:57.:23:01.

think tank, as well as being an MP. However young and energetic, is it

:23:02.:23:05.

possible to do all of those effectively and represent your

:23:06.:23:08.

constituents? Both politics and running a newspaper are pretty

:23:09.:23:11.

cut-throat. If he it will be apparent. I'm interested that there

:23:12.:23:17.

will be an enquiry. There are hundreds of MPs lining up to become

:23:18.:23:22.

editors of newspapers. I think this is actually a pretty unexceptional

:23:23.:23:28.

thing and I think the committee has had this on the stocks for a long

:23:29.:23:32.

time, they are looking for an excuse and this is the perfect excuse to do

:23:33.:23:37.

it. Has he broken any rules? I don't think he has broken any, but he's

:23:38.:23:40.

not working within the spirit of the rules. It's like when we discuss

:23:41.:23:44.

tax, people working in the spirit of it, and they get away with it. I

:23:45.:23:50.

don't think he can do the job. Which job will suffer? I think being an MP

:23:51.:23:54.

will suffer. I have come down this morning on the train from Doncaster.

:23:55.:23:59.

I was in the office for 10am. The idea that you are only working when

:24:00.:24:03.

Parliament is sitting and you turn up for a debate is not the case. I

:24:04.:24:08.

think he has done a huge disservice by his actions, actually. It's not

:24:09.:24:11.

like he needs the money. He's loaded, as we all know. I think he's

:24:12.:24:18.

done a huge disservice... Do you think it will affect other MPs with

:24:19.:24:22.

second jobs? I think it is a huge disservice to the perception of MPs

:24:23.:24:26.

and what we do with our time. I think he's back in British politics.

:24:27.:24:30.

He has been an important voice in the Conservative Party for 15 years.

:24:31.:24:36.

It's a different thing. If it's all about him and positioning himself in

:24:37.:24:39.

the politics of the future, whatever that might be, future leader of the

:24:40.:24:44.

Conservative Party, or future candidate for Mayor of London, I'm

:24:45.:24:49.

not concerned. Is it a conflict of interest in that case? How can you

:24:50.:24:52.

edit a newspaper like the London Evening Standard and be a politician

:24:53.:24:57.

at the same time cost and blue at that Sarah Samson didn't see it as a

:24:58.:25:02.

part-time job. Let's hope he gets the same amount. There is a world of

:25:03.:25:08.

difference between editing this programme and editing a newspaper.

:25:09.:25:12.

Public broadcasters have to remain impartial. One thing about the

:25:13.:25:17.

British press is that it's a very partial organisation. It has views.

:25:18.:25:21.

So it doesn't matter he's not independent because he will be

:25:22.:25:27.

lobbying for the Conservative Party through the newspaper. Don't get

:25:28.:25:29.

bitter about it! I still have hope for you. Is it true? I suspect he

:25:30.:25:36.

will run a successful paper and there is a tradition of journalists

:25:37.:25:40.

becoming politicians and politicians becoming journalists. I'm not

:25:41.:25:44.

advocating, I'm not saying it's a wonderful thing, but I'm saying I

:25:45.:25:47.

don't think it's as important or significant as perhaps you are

:25:48.:25:51.

making it out to be. Eric Pickles talks about bitterness. Caroline

:25:52.:25:55.

Flint, is that your issue, if he was to edit a paper that was more

:25:56.:25:58.

favourable to the Labour Party, you wouldn't have as big a problem? That

:25:59.:26:06.

hasn't crossed my mind at all. I read Evening Standard when I'm in

:26:07.:26:08.

London and I actually think it's pretty fair in terms of where it

:26:09.:26:11.

dishes at plaudits and the brickbats. But what is terrible is,

:26:12.:26:17.

it's like being an MP is not the most important job in George

:26:18.:26:20.

Osborne's life. That's a disservice to other MPs and it's just not right

:26:21.:26:23.

he should operate in this way. I think you should stand-down. Like

:26:24.:26:30.

Tony Blair, like David Cameron, when they decided to step away from their

:26:31.:26:34.

jobs, they left Parliament. You think he should leave Parliament, do

:26:35.:26:37.

you think he will leave Parliament in the end? They will be so much for

:26:38.:26:43.

Rory around this. Will it undermine public trust in MPs? Plenty of

:26:44.:26:48.

Conservative MPs feel that. Ultimately we will have to see

:26:49.:26:51.

whether he can do these two very exacting jobs. That's up to his

:26:52.:26:58.

electorate. What his electorate will have is a very powerful person as

:26:59.:27:05.

their member of Parliament. I'm not advocating him remaining in

:27:06.:27:08.

Parliament and I'm not advocating him going. I just think

:27:09.:27:12.

circumstances will determine this ultimately. In terms of the conflict

:27:13.:27:16.

of interest, he's running a paper with business pages, they will be

:27:17.:27:20.

dealing with companies. He will still be an adviser to asset

:27:21.:27:24.

management firm Blackrock, that will lead to serious questions on whether

:27:25.:27:29.

he can do that and be an MP. I think that the more important of the two

:27:30.:27:32.

questions, if you'll forgive for saying so. That could be easily

:27:33.:27:40.

dealt with if he laid down proper, what we call Chinese walls, so the

:27:41.:27:43.

business editor had complete autonomy over those matters. Would

:27:44.:27:49.

you trust that enough to inoculate and protect? The consequences of

:27:50.:27:53.

breaching that would be beyond imaginable. But there is no

:27:54.:27:57.

transparency or accountability. Who will decide about whether he is

:27:58.:28:00.

doing his job as an MP more than he does his job as the editor? The

:28:01.:28:04.

truth is that the constituents do not have any say as far as I know in

:28:05.:28:10.

terms of recalling. He was Chancellor of the ex-Jet, I imagine

:28:11.:28:13.

that's more daunting than being the editor of the Evening Standard. --

:28:14.:28:20.

Chancellor of the Exchequer. I don't believe constituents suffered as a

:28:21.:28:21.

result. Up to 15 new Bills, on top

:28:22.:28:24.

of the Great Repeal Bill, That's according to a new report

:28:25.:28:27.

from the think tank The report also warns that

:28:28.:28:30.

Parliament is unlikely to have much time for legislating anything

:28:31.:28:34.

non-Brexit related, and may have to find alternative ways

:28:35.:28:38.

of achieving policy aims. We are joined now by Jill Rutter,

:28:39.:28:41.

who co-authored the Institute Welcome to the daily politics. Do

:28:42.:28:52.

you think Parliament will struggle with the bills it as to push

:28:53.:28:59.

through? This is a huge, big additional workload for Parliament.

:29:00.:29:04.

The great repeal bill itself is in many ways the least interesting of

:29:05.:29:08.

the pieces of legislation, but it's a massive task. David Davis himself

:29:09.:29:12.

said potentially thousands of pages of secondary legislation coming

:29:13.:29:15.

through. We have major new bills that will need to be put in place.

:29:16.:29:20.

The new migration and customs regimes and a new agricultural

:29:21.:29:24.

policy. MPs will want to get stuck into those. None of these were

:29:25.:29:29.

planned when the Conservatives ran for government in 2015. What will

:29:30.:29:35.

that do to non-Brexit legislation? We estimate, the figures we have

:29:36.:29:40.

heard say there will be 10-15 of Brexit bills of varying sizes and

:29:41.:29:43.

the great repeal bill. When you take that into account and you have these

:29:44.:29:52.

sessions, 5-8 bills in each of those sessions and loads of secondary

:29:53.:29:55.

legislation, normally in Queen's speech you get 20 bills being

:29:56.:29:59.

introduced. You could say up to around half of your conventional

:30:00.:30:02.

legislative programme might to be displaced. You want secondary

:30:03.:30:09.

legislation might be used to amend primary legislation. What we call

:30:10.:30:14.

Henry VIII clauses. This would mean less parliamentary scrutiny, so will

:30:15.:30:16.

we see more rebellion against the government as a result?

:30:17.:30:22.

We have seen the Government try to take him with yet eight hours before

:30:23.:30:27.

and Parliament revolted against that. Parliament needs to be clear

:30:28.:30:31.

that all it is trying to achieve in the great repeal bill is putting

:30:32.:30:35.

existing European law into UK law, it should resisted the temptation to

:30:36.:30:39.

make lots and lots of changes. There is lots of times that after Brexit.

:30:40.:30:44.

Where it needs to change things, it needs to do that through primary

:30:45.:30:47.

legislation and it needs to give Parliament the to make decisions in

:30:48.:30:54.

advance, draft legislation if feasible, proper impact assessments

:30:55.:30:56.

Parliament can understand what it is being asked to do. Thank you very

:30:57.:30:58.

much. We're joined now by the Ukip

:30:59.:30:58.

MP Douglas Carswell. You have no doubt seen the report's

:30:59.:31:06.

conclusions and listened to the interview, but the Government will

:31:07.:31:09.

have a fairly complex, time-consuming few years ahead of

:31:10.:31:13.

it, navigating Brexit. Are you surprised? Self-government takes

:31:14.:31:18.

energy and effort and if anyone in white Minster -- Whitehall

:31:19.:31:22.

Westminster the it is too much effort they should not be in the

:31:23.:31:25.

business of making public policy. The institute has done a good job of

:31:26.:31:29.

outlining some of the things we need to consider and I think the basic

:31:30.:31:33.

principle, which I hope we can get cross-party consensus on, is that no

:31:34.:31:36.

one should really make changes to public policy, and this Great Repeal

:31:37.:31:41.

Bill should become a great transfer bill. If people want to make changes

:31:42.:31:46.

to public policy, I would love to see higher environmental standards,

:31:47.:31:50.

but that in Europe 2017 general election manifesto, get a mandate

:31:51.:31:55.

from people, don't do it on the sly. Do you think that would work? It be

:31:56.:32:01.

take that blueprint, do the Great Repeal Bill, bring things into law,

:32:02.:32:05.

then spend more time bringing in legislation to perfect agriculture

:32:06.:32:13.

etc? Because it is called Great Repeal Bill it sounds like we are

:32:14.:32:15.

starting with a blank piece of paper! Because many of the laws we

:32:16.:32:21.

have we put forward to the EU, it will be about asserting that we want

:32:22.:32:24.

others and there is time down the road for any political party to put

:32:25.:32:27.

forward their own changes in the future, and Theresa May in her 12

:32:28.:32:34.

objectives said she wanted to keep things like employment protection,

:32:35.:32:37.

and she also said an handset, but that mean she can accept what we

:32:38.:32:41.

already have in terms of the issues around employment rights. Do you

:32:42.:32:45.

accept there will be bills and areas of legislation that cannot just be

:32:46.:32:50.

adopted, to use Caroline's term? Let me just give an example, the

:32:51.:32:55.

Institute of Government has said different systems need to be set up,

:32:56.:32:59.

so if we have an immigration system, one that we have not had before

:33:00.:33:02.

because we were guided by EU principles, then we will need

:33:03.:33:05.

primary legislation and that will take time. There are 15 of those

:33:06.:33:09.

bills, will that be done in two years? As I said, self-government

:33:10.:33:15.

takes time and effort. I'm asking if it will be done in those two years.

:33:16.:33:20.

I think it will, the Institute for Government have highlighted

:33:21.:33:22.

important things but they tend to reflect the priorities but I think

:33:23.:33:35.

they over exaggerate the complexities. Let's take their point

:33:36.:33:40.

of view, is the Government preparing for the legislation? I'm sure it is,

:33:41.:33:46.

forgive me for slightly correcting, Henry VIII powers are not about

:33:47.:33:50.

secondary legislation, it is when the Secretary of State is granted

:33:51.:33:54.

powers to do them without reference to Parliament. Secondary legislation

:33:55.:34:00.

takes place all the time in Parliament, morning, afternoon and

:34:01.:34:03.

evening, and sometimes it is a devil of a job to get people to serve

:34:04.:34:08.

though so it has to be done in a reasonable way, and we are going to

:34:09.:34:11.

need to make some slight changes, it will have to take place there. But

:34:12.:34:15.

there were revolts from the Government try to use those sort of

:34:16.:34:19.

clauses to change legislation and it had to be dropped. Would you be

:34:20.:34:24.

happy, Douglas... Henry VIII clauses are not normal but secondary

:34:25.:34:28.

legislation is. Are you happy for less Parliamentary scrutiny over

:34:29.:34:30.

what could be important pieces legislation? In terms of

:34:31.:34:35.

transferring the status quo, transferring it from EU to UK status

:34:36.:34:38.

quo, I don't see the need for a great deal of debate before the next

:34:39.:34:43.

general election. There are three stages by which an idea like Brexit

:34:44.:34:47.

is accepted by the status quo. Number one, where the Institute of

:34:48.:34:51.

Government was six months ago, it is eight it is unthinkable. Number two

:34:52.:34:54.

is to get to where they are now, which is to say it is impractical.

:34:55.:34:58.

Stage three is for them to say it was their idea all along. The

:34:59.:35:02.

Institute for Government and others are making the journey toward

:35:03.:35:06.

accepting this radical idea. Do you think it will offer more

:35:07.:35:08.

opportunities for rebellion and consent if this is the way

:35:09.:35:27.

the Government has to push through legislation? There will be areas

:35:28.:35:30.

where it will be the consensus because we are just adopting into

:35:31.:35:33.

our Bill Watt with EU law. What they will identify are the points of

:35:34.:35:35.

contention and no doubt on that there is likely to be different

:35:36.:35:38.

views, not just across the chamber but maybe within Conservative

:35:39.:35:40.

benches as well. It will be a hard slog. And it will be done in the two

:35:41.:35:42.

years? Oh, yes. We don't know, sitting here, but if there is that

:35:43.:35:44.

amount of pressure being put on Parliament, we haven't even talked

:35:45.:35:46.

about domestic legislation aside from Brexit, could it delay the

:35:47.:35:50.

whole process of leaving the EU? Let's be frank, over the last couple

:35:51.:35:53.

of years Parliament hasn't introduced much in the way of

:35:54.:35:57.

flagship legislation, the tail end of a Cameron coalition, I think MPs

:35:58.:36:02.

could cope with a bit more work. Often MPs have been passing the

:36:03.:36:10.

clarity legislation to look busy. You think Parliament has been lazy

:36:11.:36:14.

in terms of what it has had to do? The last couple of years has been

:36:15.:36:20.

clarity and I think this is the big change, it will involve bringing all

:36:21.:36:25.

legislation that, so we are going to be busy, we're going to be busy all

:36:26.:36:30.

the time. But what about domestic legislation? Aside from Brexit, will

:36:31.:36:34.

there be any time or room for any of that? This is domestic legislation.

:36:35.:36:42.

I mean aside from Brexit. First and foremost it will be the priority and

:36:43.:36:46.

in the last parliament we had one line whips, not discussing primary

:36:47.:36:50.

legislation and that was lazy Government. On domestic policy the

:36:51.:36:54.

problem we have got at the moment is domestic policy is being made up,

:36:55.:36:56.

like grammar schools, like the stuff on tax the other week, and that is

:36:57.:37:01.

not a problem Brexit, that is a problem... I must let Eric answer

:37:02.:37:06.

that, that policy is being made up. I don't accept that, but I do think

:37:07.:37:12.

there is a case for Parliament to sit for five days a week for the

:37:13.:37:16.

next few years to get this thing through, if necessary. What do you

:37:17.:37:21.

think about that? Fundamentally, the grown-ups are back in charge, for

:37:22.:37:25.

the first time in 20, 30 years, grown-ups are running the Government

:37:26.:37:28.

and it can be done, it is a big ask but with grown-ups in charge we are

:37:29.:37:31.

getting there. When are you going back into the Conservative Party?! I

:37:32.:37:38.

give condiments to ministers when they are necessary, it is my job.

:37:39.:37:42.

What about sitting five days a week? Fantastic. What about you, Caroline?

:37:43.:37:50.

Some others do not live in London, some of us live with our

:37:51.:37:53.

constituents. The days when we are in London, too much of it is one

:37:54.:37:57.

line Whip days, too much of it is not sorting out Government business

:37:58.:38:01.

and we should make sure this area of policy gets the time it deserves and

:38:02.:38:05.

we could do that if we looked at... How will George Osborne Poke those

:38:06.:38:08.

other jobs if he has to sit five days a week? He will cope. Is that

:38:09.:38:15.

your answer? That is my answer. Now let's take a look

:38:16.:38:19.

at what else is happening The Foreign Secretary is off

:38:20.:38:21.

on his travels again this afternoon. It's back to the land

:38:22.:38:25.

of his birth for Boris, who has a series of meetings

:38:26.:38:28.

with the Trump administration. Tomorrow, the Scottish Parliament

:38:29.:38:30.

starts a two-day debate on having On Wednesday, it's the Theresa

:38:31.:38:32.

versus Jezza show - and you can catch PMQs live

:38:33.:38:45.

on the Daily Politics. Wednesday also sees the end

:38:46.:38:47.

of consultation on the Government's controversial proposals

:38:48.:38:50.

on new national funding Jeremy Corbyn makes a speech

:38:51.:38:51.

to the Federation of Small Business And on Saturday, EU leaders meet

:38:52.:38:54.

to mark the 60th anniversary of the Treaty of Rome,

:38:55.:38:58.

which marked the start We're joined now by Laura Hughes of

:38:59.:39:00.

the Daily Telegraph and George Eaton Welcome to both of you. George, what

:39:01.:39:13.

is happening in the Labour Party with Tom Watson saying there is a

:39:14.:39:17.

battle for the future of Labour, that Jeremy Corbyn didn't know about

:39:18.:39:21.

this battle within Momentum, saying they need to rebalance the Labour

:39:22.:39:26.

Party? Labour currently, as it often has in recent times, resembles a

:39:27.:39:31.

fight club more than a political party and what the current battle is

:39:32.:39:35.

really about is who gets control of the party after Jeremy Corbyn is

:39:36.:39:41.

gone. All sides are preparing for another leadership contest and the

:39:42.:39:45.

key issue of dispute is the so-called McDonnell Amendment, that

:39:46.:39:49.

would cut the number of nominations you need to get on the ballot from

:39:50.:39:55.

15% of MPs to 5%. What Jeremy Corbyn's supporters fear is that

:39:56.:39:58.

after him they will not be able to get a left-wing success on the

:39:59.:40:03.

ballot and it is precisely that that Jeremy Corbyn's opponents, Tom

:40:04.:40:07.

Watson among them, want to prevent. How does this play out, if it is a

:40:08.:40:19.

battle for succession, who comes after Jeremy Corbyn at whatever

:40:20.:40:21.

point? We have the Unite leadership election going on at the moment

:40:22.:40:23.

between Len McCluskey and Gerard Coyne, what happens next? The

:40:24.:40:25.

interesting thing in mentioning the succession is that John McDonnell

:40:26.:40:28.

has come out today, pretty extraordinary, and attacked John

:40:29.:40:34.

Watson -- Tom Watson in his own Shadow Cabinet and said he is

:40:35.:40:36.

interfering in Unite's leadership contest. I think what Tom Watson is

:40:37.:40:43.

doing and what other Labour MPs are doing is they want to inform Labour

:40:44.:40:47.

members, this is what it will mean, if you change the rules on selection

:40:48.:40:51.

for the leadership, you will end up with somebody else like John

:40:52.:40:56.

McDonnell, someone else in Jeremy Corbyn's close circle, and that is

:40:57.:40:59.

not what they want, so that is probably what this is all about.

:41:00.:41:03.

George, let's talk about another front that Theresa May is fighting

:41:04.:41:06.

on, she has announced she will trigger article 50 to trigger Brexit

:41:07.:41:11.

a week on Wednesday, the 29th, but Nicola Sturgeon has also released

:41:12.:41:16.

the text on a motion on a second independence referendum to be

:41:17.:41:20.

debated on and decided tomorrow, on Wednesday. How does that play out?

:41:21.:41:25.

There is going to be a vote in the Scottish parliament and it will pass

:41:26.:41:32.

the SNP with a majority if you include the Independents in the

:41:33.:41:35.

Scottish parliament. Nicola Sturgeon will use this to bolster the case,

:41:36.:41:41.

she has already been mocking Theresa May saying that she has a mandate, I

:41:42.:41:46.

don't think Nicola Sturgeon was taken by surprise when Theresa May

:41:47.:41:50.

refused to grant her a second referendum bites spring 2019, I

:41:51.:41:55.

think her calculation is that the anger that this will cause among

:41:56.:41:58.

Scots will ultimately help the cause of independence when that second row

:41:59.:42:06.

-- that a second referendum happens. As George said, Nicola Sturgeon

:42:07.:42:09.

probably wasn't surprised that Theresa May rejected the timing of

:42:10.:42:14.

autumn 2080 or early 2019 but she has repeated it in imagine, though

:42:15.:42:18.

she said it would be most appropriately between those two

:42:19.:42:22.

dates. Does it indicate any flexibility on the SNP side? Maybe,

:42:23.:42:26.

over the weekend there were murmurs that Nicola would be more flexible

:42:27.:42:30.

but it is interesting they have used that word again in this motion that

:42:31.:42:36.

has gone out today. I don't know how flexible, she has to appear like she

:42:37.:42:38.

is taking a strong stance because over the next two days where we have

:42:39.:42:42.

this debate in Scotland the Unionists will make a case that

:42:43.:42:45.

Nicola Sturgeon doesn't really have a plan for what would happen if

:42:46.:42:49.

Scotland did become independent. What currency would they use? How

:42:50.:42:54.

would they get rid of the ?15 billion deficit? Questions like that

:42:55.:42:57.

still have not been answered so she has to stick them on something and

:42:58.:43:03.

perhaps it will be the key date. Law reviews and Georgie Dibaba thank

:43:04.:43:06.

you both very much. Before we leave the week ahead, this idea of a Green

:43:07.:43:11.

paper on capping energy prices, is this deja vu for you and Ed

:43:12.:43:15.

Miliband? It does feel a bit like that Groundhog Day moment and we had

:43:16.:43:19.

a debate in Parliament last week in which Jessye Norman was not

:43:20.:43:22.

unfriendly to what some of us have been saying for some time which is

:43:23.:43:26.

that we need to do something about this market because people on

:43:27.:43:29.

standard variable tariffs are paying over the odds, and finally actually

:43:30.:43:33.

in the speech Theresa May made at the weekend, she acknowledged the

:43:34.:43:37.

energy market isn't working so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we

:43:38.:43:40.

will get progress. Tell our viewers this is slightly different to you

:43:41.:43:46.

and Ed Miliband proposed a few years which was a cap, the difference that

:43:47.:43:50.

in the worst and best deals? Relative gap is what John Penrose is

:43:51.:43:55.

suggesting, I don't agree with that, I think basically what we should

:43:56.:44:00.

have is a protective great that the regulator provides for those people

:44:01.:44:03.

on the standard variable tariffs and what it would mean is if their bills

:44:04.:44:08.

-- is that their bills cannot go above a certain level and it would

:44:09.:44:11.

be regulated because since about 2012 they have spent more than 8

:44:12.:44:15.

billion more than they needed to. Do you agree something needs to be

:44:16.:44:19.

done? We have seen huge hikes in energy prices in the last few

:44:20.:44:22.

months. There have been spectacular hikes and I think some consumers

:44:23.:44:29.

feel they have been taken for risk, so we will see what this Green paper

:44:30.:44:33.

says and it it pragmatically means we have to adopt some of this then

:44:34.:44:37.

so be it. You would be broadly in favour of looking at the idea of

:44:38.:44:41.

capping prices? I want to see what it looks like, we have seen a shift

:44:42.:44:45.

in energy prices but nothing that would reflect the shift in prices

:44:46.:44:49.

consumers have paid, so I want to see that... So you think the market

:44:50.:44:54.

is broken in the late Caroline things? That is what Theresa said at

:44:55.:44:58.

the weekend. Markets sometimes can be skewed.

:44:59.:45:01.

Now, from April the minimum wage will rise to ?7.50 an hour.

:45:02.:45:04.

That's as part of the government's plan to take it to more

:45:05.:45:07.

But is it harming at least one group more than it helps?

:45:08.:45:12.

The businesswoman and campaigner Rosa Monckton thinks

:45:13.:45:14.

that the minimum wage is preventing employers from hiring more people

:45:15.:45:17.

with learning disabilities, because their output simply can't

:45:18.:45:19.

Is it just for the money, or to have a role in society,

:45:20.:45:39.

Almost 1.5 million people in the UK have a learning disability,

:45:40.:45:52.

but of those, just under 6% are in work.

:45:53.:45:56.

My daughter Domenica has Down's syndrome.

:45:57.:45:58.

Last year I started a charity for people with learning

:45:59.:46:04.

This is the training cafe where our young people can

:46:05.:46:10.

hone their practical and social skills before trying

:46:11.:46:17.

Something that makes it increasingly difficult to get people

:46:18.:46:21.

with learning disabilities into work is the sharp rise in

:46:22.:46:23.

the minimum wage, soon to go up to ?7.50 an hour.

:46:24.:46:26.

Most people think this is only a good thing.

:46:27.:46:28.

But if it costs more for a company to hire someone

:46:29.:46:31.

than the value of their output, then that person will

:46:32.:46:34.

For those people, the minimum wage doesn't raise their

:46:35.:46:39.

Yet it's considered profoundly controversial to even raise

:46:40.:46:45.

the subject of a therapeutic exemption of the minimum wage for

:46:46.:46:48.

Policymakers seem to live in an abstract world,

:46:49.:46:57.

more concerned with the rhetoric of human rights and equality,

:46:58.:47:01.

rather than what might benefit real human beings.

:47:02.:47:04.

People with a learning disability may still live at home.

:47:05.:47:07.

Often they have no understanding of money.

:47:08.:47:10.

They want to work so they can have a fulfilled and purposeful

:47:11.:47:13.

life, and make friends rather than be alone in front

:47:14.:47:16.

For those people, we need to focus less on their right to a minimum

:47:17.:47:24.

wage, and more on their right to the dignity of a paid job.

:47:25.:47:27.

Do you accept that this is a very difficult issue for politicians to

:47:28.:47:38.

grapple with when they talk about disabled people and what they are

:47:39.:47:42.

worth in terms of work? I don't understand why it should be. Because

:47:43.:47:46.

the mistake that's being made is that people are being judged by the

:47:47.:47:51.

financial worth. This is not about that. It's not about money. It's

:47:52.:47:56.

about what you're worth is as a human being, and it's about the

:47:57.:48:00.

dignity of going to work, the psychological and social benefits of

:48:01.:48:04.

being included. Caroline Flint, do you accept that for people with

:48:05.:48:08.

learning disabilities the minimum wage rules have become in some way

:48:09.:48:12.

an obstacle and is not a protection in terms of them being offered and

:48:13.:48:17.

getting jobs. I don't personally have evidence of that. I think

:48:18.:48:20.

probably before the minimum wage rules came in it wasn't any easier

:48:21.:48:24.

for these young people to find work either. When it comes to disability,

:48:25.:48:29.

physical or mental or learning disabilities, there are such a range

:48:30.:48:34.

of different people that are part of those groups. I understand part of

:48:35.:48:38.

what you are saying, but to say there should be a different level

:48:39.:48:42.

for the minimum wage is probably not the right way forward. There has to

:48:43.:48:46.

be something else. When I was a minister at the WP, often employers

:48:47.:48:52.

were just excluding people because they weren't sure how to work with

:48:53.:48:57.

people, it wasn't to do with pay. -- at the DWP. That requires the

:48:58.:49:00.

government and others to be more involved in getting that right. The

:49:01.:49:05.

employers I have seen over the years who employ people with various

:49:06.:49:08.

disabilities say to me, we wonder why we didn't do it before because

:49:09.:49:12.

it's been great for our company and workforce. The problem is that when

:49:13.:49:16.

ministers and politicians look at the laws, if they were to set

:49:17.:49:20.

different standards all levels, wouldn't it devalue the work of all

:49:21.:49:26.

disabled workers potentially, because as Caroline Flint said,

:49:27.:49:29.

there is a great degree of variation. No. We are talking

:49:30.:49:36.

specifically about people with learning disabilities. I can't

:49:37.:49:40.

emphasise that distinction enough. There already exists within the

:49:41.:49:46.

national minimum wage a therapeutic exemption for peace workers, who are

:49:47.:49:51.

unusually slow in their output. I would suggest to politicians that

:49:52.:49:55.

you look at people in the support group of employment support

:49:56.:49:58.

allowance. I think there are about half a million people there. Many of

:49:59.:50:03.

them might not be able to work anyway. But introduce assessments,

:50:04.:50:07.

introduced as a pilot the therapeutic or minimum wage for that

:50:08.:50:12.

particular cohort. Could you see that happening? We remember Lord

:50:13.:50:16.

Freud saying something similar a couple of years ago. He was a

:50:17.:50:20.

minister at the time. He ended up in a lot of trouble. I understand why

:50:21.:50:24.

politicians are reluctant to look into this. It's important about that

:50:25.:50:31.

idea of worth. You have to recognise that the person with learning

:50:32.:50:34.

disabilities and the employer both need support. You need to offer

:50:35.:50:41.

support to the employer as well as the employees. The point being made

:50:42.:50:46.

is that these are perfectly good, perfectly able employees who can get

:50:47.:50:52.

the satisfaction of work, and enhance the environment for other

:50:53.:51:00.

co-workers. You referred to Lord Freud, who at the time said, when he

:51:01.:51:04.

was discussing this very issue, there is a small, there is a group,

:51:05.:51:09.

and I know exactly who you mean, when you say they are not worth the

:51:10.:51:14.

full wage. It might have been clumsy speech, but were you offended by it?

:51:15.:51:18.

Certainly Labour politicians were and many organisations who felt they

:51:19.:51:29.

were offending people and what they're worth was. You're making the

:51:30.:51:33.

mistake of talking about the financial worth. You need to speak

:51:34.:51:37.

to parents who have adult children with learning disabilities sitting

:51:38.:51:41.

at home and not able to go to work because their economic output isn't

:51:42.:51:47.

worth the minimum wage. I have had the most appalling trolling online

:51:48.:51:53.

since I wrote this article in the Spectator. Unbelievable. But I am

:51:54.:51:57.

sustained by all the e-mails I have received from parents, from siblings

:51:58.:52:02.

saying, please hold your head up above the parapet. We need our young

:52:03.:52:07.

people to get into work. 1.4 million people in the UK have a learning

:52:08.:52:12.

disability, and 1.3 million of them are unemployed. Surely any steps

:52:13.:52:16.

similar to what Rosa Monckton is suggesting, would go some way to

:52:17.:52:21.

encouraging employers to take on more people with a learning

:52:22.:52:25.

disability. The statistics are appalling. I would say that they

:52:26.:52:28.

were probably just as appalling before we had the minimum wage as we

:52:29.:52:32.

do today. Part of the question for me, it is about worth, in terms of

:52:33.:52:38.

individuals themselves feeling like they are contributing and engaging

:52:39.:52:42.

with others. We have seen a huge amount of services that supported

:52:43.:52:46.

young people with learning disabilities and older people, and

:52:47.:52:49.

you mentioned this in your article, they have been shut down and they

:52:50.:52:53.

don't have places to go any more. It requires a wider look. To be honest,

:52:54.:52:57.

going for the minimum wage, I don't think first and foremost it's the

:52:58.:53:01.

biggest problem, but there is certainly something that needs to be

:53:02.:53:06.

addressed, because lots of these young people will be living longer

:53:07.:53:09.

than they did a few decades ago. That's something we need to face as

:53:10.:53:14.

a society for these young people. Eric Pickles suggested more support

:53:15.:53:20.

for employers to encourage people to take on more people with learning

:53:21.:53:24.

disabilities. Mencap, who don't agree with your stance, say it's

:53:25.:53:28.

important for companies to take on more roles for people with learning

:53:29.:53:32.

disabilities. It's one way of looking at it, but businesses are

:53:33.:53:35.

not charities. They need an incentive to take young people with

:53:36.:53:39.

learning disabilities into the workplace. Eric Pickles, if there

:53:40.:53:42.

was a situation where you could talk about different standards and levels

:53:43.:53:47.

of pay, do you think there would be any political weight behind an idea

:53:48.:53:52.

like that? I hesitate to disagree with Rosa, but in the present

:53:53.:53:59.

climate if a government tried to do that, it would be howled out before

:54:00.:54:04.

any good could come of it. I recognise what Caroline says. I

:54:05.:54:07.

would be very much in favour of fundamentally looking at ways in

:54:08.:54:11.

which can get more people with learning difficulties into

:54:12.:54:16.

employment. I think offering support to the employer, offering support to

:54:17.:54:19.

the employee at the same time, a route. But in the modern world it

:54:20.:54:25.

would simply be hounded out, as Lord Freud was hounded out. But it

:54:26.:54:33.

shouldn't be. I know that. Everybody wants to feel like they belong

:54:34.:54:37.

somewhere. All these young people who have been brought up, in

:54:38.:54:41.

mainstream schools, they have been brought up to believe they are part

:54:42.:54:45.

of society and suddenly they are not any more. Maybe there's another way,

:54:46.:54:50.

what is it to incentivise employers? Personally I would say, don't reduce

:54:51.:54:54.

the minimum wage. There are other ways. Employers get all sorts of

:54:55.:54:57.

other things with tax credits here and there and other bits of support.

:54:58.:55:01.

For many things that I don't think are worthwhile, but this could be

:55:02.:55:10.

something different. That's what we do our centre. We have people in

:55:11.:55:16.

employee are supportive positions and we hope they will be offered

:55:17.:55:19.

full-time and part-time jobs at the end of it. One of our candidates

:55:20.:55:23.

last week was offered 12 hours per week at the minimum wage because

:55:24.:55:27.

she's worth it, with support. Another was not. They looked at it

:55:28.:55:32.

very scientifically and said, this person can do 70% of the job. As a

:55:33.:55:37.

company we cannot justify paying the national minimum wage. For the sake

:55:38.:55:42.

of clarity, I accept that, but I was talking about somebody working

:55:43.:55:45.

alongside them in the work itself. But there are people, there is the

:55:46.:55:49.

access to work funding from the government to pay for somebody for a

:55:50.:55:52.

year to be with that person. A lifelong learning disability is

:55:53.:55:58.

exactly that, when that person pulls away, what will happen then?

:55:59.:56:02.

Rosamund Pike, thank you for coming in. -- Rosa Monckton, thank you for

:56:03.:56:08.

coming in. Are the Cornish at risk

:56:09.:56:09.

of ethnic oppression? The Council of Europe -

:56:10.:56:11.

not to be confused with the European Council -

:56:12.:56:13.

have condemned the Government The Cornish were formally

:56:14.:56:15.

designated a minority in 2014, but the Council says the Government

:56:16.:56:19.

has failed to maintain Let's talk now to the leader

:56:20.:56:21.

of Mebyon Kernow, But what say you, Eric Pickles, have

:56:22.:56:39.

you been neglecting your duty and obligation to the people of

:56:40.:56:43.

Cornwall? I'm the guilty man, I gave money to the Cornish language when I

:56:44.:56:49.

was secretary of state. I gave it in order the Liberal Democrats wouldn't

:56:50.:56:53.

block I think half ?1 billion of savings. So it was a bribe?

:56:54.:56:59.

Absolutely! I can't fool you for your honesty. I think it was half a

:57:00.:57:07.

billion in worth. But what about the government helping Cornish people.

:57:08.:57:13.

The government 's help should be to the people of Cornwall, the industry

:57:14.:57:17.

and education in Cornwall. I'm not entirely sure. I would like the idea

:57:18.:57:21.

that Cornish would continue in some form or another, but after all, most

:57:22.:57:28.

of that went into people learning the language, which I'm sure is very

:57:29.:57:31.

beautiful. Do you think it's right, even though Eric Pickles says he

:57:32.:57:37.

only did it so the Liberal Democrats would do not do something the

:57:38.:57:40.

Conservative Party did or didn't want, that the Cornish up entreated

:57:41.:57:44.

the way they should have been. It's not a bad thing to recognise the

:57:45.:57:48.

diversity we have in the United Kingdom. The culture and languages

:57:49.:57:52.

of our great country fine. That's what I said in my press release.

:57:53.:58:04.

What I do find in all of this, I think they are calling for an

:58:05.:58:07.

independence for Cornwall. I don't go down that route. I think

:58:08.:58:12.

something at the general election that this party, who got less than

:58:13.:58:16.

2% of the vote, just four councillors in the whole of Cornwall

:58:17.:58:19.

from this party, I think we could reduce things to such a level that

:58:20.:58:23.

it gets a bit ridiculous. But culture and language and making sure

:58:24.:58:26.

that isn't lost and supporting it in different ways is a good thing. But

:58:27.:58:30.

there's no point if you are not going to do anything about it. You

:58:31.:58:33.

might put the money in but you haven't backed it up. Somebody said,

:58:34.:58:38.

what kind of idiot funded this in the first place, and I said, that

:58:39.:58:43.

would be me! You have just reinforced that on the programme. We

:58:44.:58:47.

don't often get yes ounces from politicians. But thank you for that.

:58:48.:58:52.

That's all for today. Thanks to our guests.

:58:53.:58:54.

The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.

:58:55.:58:56.

I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big political stories

:58:57.:58:59.

of the day - do join me then. Bye-bye.

:59:00.:59:01.

Eric Pickles and Caroline Flint join Jo Coburn to look into claims that there is a Momentum/Unite plot to take over the Labour Party and discuss whether MPs should have second jobs.

Jill Rutter from the Institute for Government talks about their new report that up to 15 new bills, as well as the great repeal bill, will be required to deliver Brexit. Ukip's Douglas Carswell also gives his thoughts.

Campaigner Rosa Monckton speaks about her belief that people with learning disabilities should be exempt from minimum wage legislation.

And Laura Hughes from the Telegraph and George Eaton from the New Statesman take a look at the political week ahead.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS