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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:40. | :00:42. | |
Sinn Fein's Martin McGuinness, the former IRA commander | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
turned Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland has died. | :00:46. | :00:47. | |
Labour's internal divisions burst into the open last night, | :00:48. | :00:56. | |
with one MP even referring to Jeremy Corbyn as | :00:57. | :00:58. | |
Mr Corbyn says spirits are running high because Labour | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
We'll be talking about the French presidential election as the main | :01:03. | :01:10. | |
contenders clash for the first time on TV over immigration, | :01:11. | :01:13. | |
And we'll be asking whatever happened to plans for a Holywood | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
All that in the next hour and with us for the whole | :01:19. | :01:29. | |
of the programme today, someone who knows a thing or two | :01:30. | :01:32. | |
about taking politics to the big screen. | :01:33. | :01:34. | |
Michael Dobbs is the creator of House of Cards, a former chief | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
of staff to Margaret Thatcher and a Conservative peer, | :01:38. | :01:39. | |
Welcome to our rather smaller screen, Michael. | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
First today, let's talk about the death of Martin McGuinness. | :01:45. | :01:47. | |
The former IRA leader, who went on to be Deputy First | :01:48. | :01:49. | |
Minister of Northern Ireland, died this morning at the age of 66. | :01:50. | :01:55. | |
It's understood he had been suffering from a rare heart | :01:56. | :01:57. | |
He stood down from his post in January in protest at the DUP's | :01:58. | :02:03. | |
handling of an energy scandal, a move which triggered a snap | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
Well, let's go now to our correspondent Chris Buckler. | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
Chris Buckler, how would you characterise the life of Martin | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
McGuinness and his remarkable journey from paramilitary to | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
politician? Well, all of his political beliefs and that | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
paramilitary truth were all born here in Derry, in the Bogside of | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
Derry, the city where he grew up and lived his entire life. It was during | :02:31. | :02:37. | |
those years of turmoil, those years of violence, on a civil rights | :02:38. | :02:40. | |
movement that grew up here that Martin McGuinness not only became | :02:41. | :02:43. | |
interested in politics but he became involved in the IRA. When you take a | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
look at the statements that have been made about his life, they show | :02:48. | :02:50. | |
the contradiction that exists there. He was a man who was involved in | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
violence. He was a man who was senior within the IRA. But he was | :02:55. | :03:00. | |
also a man who reached out. Whenever you think about his political gross, | :03:01. | :03:03. | |
if you look at what he contributed to the peace process here, you can't | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
escape that relationship that he built with Ian Paisley. Just like he | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
was loathed by unionists, Ian Paisley was loathed by nationalists, | :03:14. | :03:19. | |
yet, somehow they came together and they built that unusual relationship | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
where they would smile, they would laugh, they would joke. They became | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
known as the Chuckle Brothers. A big part of that was just the fact that | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
it was a genuine relationship. The two men saw something in each other | :03:31. | :03:33. | |
that they could work with. I think that's the key point. Martin | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
McGuinness was someone who was prepared to work at developing | :03:38. | :03:40. | |
relationships and ultimately that did lead to the peace process being | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
a lot more successful. But he was a divisive character, too. Obviously | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
in the early days in the Troubles you have talked about but even | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
latterly, I mean how will he be remembered by the local community? | :03:54. | :03:56. | |
Well, I think it depends where you are. There is absolutely no doubt | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
that those divides that existed for so long Northern Ireland have not | :04:02. | :04:04. | |
gone away and ultimately if you ask about Martin McGuinness in a | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
unionist area or if you ask about him in a nationalist area you will | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
get different reactions. That's particularly tru, of course, among | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
those who suffered at the hands of the IRA. Those who have relatives | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
who were killed by the IRA, those who feel that Martin McGuinness was | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
someone who wrecked their lives and that cannot be taken away from all | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
of the years whenever there has been this work to achieve something, | :04:30. | :04:32. | |
where nationalists and unionists can work together in government. There | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
are people who still cannot forget what happened during years of | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
Troubles. Ultimately that's an important part of the legacy of | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
Martin McGuinness and something that will not be forgotten and that's | :04:46. | :04:47. | |
particularly true in unionist areas. Thank you very much. | :04:48. | :04:49. | |
So as we've been saying, Martin McGuinness was a former IRA | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
chief of staff who went on to be a key player in the peace process. | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
Can you say whether the bombing is likely to stop in the near future | :04:56. | :05:02. | |
Well, we will always take into considerations the feelings | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
I am proud and honoured to be with you here today | :05:08. | :05:17. | |
to commemorate the peace tribute to the volunteers of | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
the Irish Republican Army from this historic county, | :05:24. | :05:25. | |
who gave their lives in every generation, | :05:26. | :05:27. | |
in our legitimate struggle for freedom and justice in Ireland. | :05:28. | :05:30. | |
I don't know whether he is five-star... | :05:31. | :05:53. | |
Well, senior politicians have this morning been giving their reaction | :05:54. | :06:08. | |
The Prime Minister, Theresa May, has released | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
"While I can never condone the path he took | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
Martin McGuinness ultimately played a defining | :06:17. | :06:19. | |
the Republican movement away from violence." | :06:20. | :06:30. | |
And the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has tweeted: | :06:31. | :06:38. | |
Martin McGuinness played a huge role in bringing about peace | :06:39. | :06:40. | |
He was a great family man and my thoughts are with them. | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
He's covered Northern Ireland over many years. | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
Welcome to the Daily Politics. Your memories of Martin McGuinness? I | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
first melt Martin McGuinness way back in 1972, a few days after | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
Bloody Sunday. -- I first met McGuinness. Which is when British | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
paratroopers shot dead 13 civil rights marchers and John Hume the | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
nationalist politician pointed out Martin McGuinness touring a | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
torch-lit, candle-lit vigil that he was the man I should be speaking to. | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
At the time he was 22. I met him for the first time shortly after Bloody | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
Sunday in the Gas Works, at the time, the IRA head quarterings in | :07:20. | :07:22. | |
the Bogside. I was struck by several things. First of all how bright and | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
articulate he was. How passionate he was about what he was fighting for | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
but also what I remember him saying to me is that he'd much rather be | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
mowing the lawn, assuming he had a lawn, on saund and cleaning the car | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
than doing what he was doing. -- on a Sunday. I didn't pursue what he | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
was doing with him at the time. But it was significant, at that time he | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
was number two in the IRA in Derry. He rose quickly. Only a few months | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
after Bloody Sunday, he was part of the IRA delegation that met the | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
British Secretary of State, Willy Whitelaw along with Gerry Adams and | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
he rose in the IRA from then onwards. I was always regarded | :08:03. | :08:08. | |
Martin McGuinness as being the most senior and powerful IRA leader on | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
the island of Ireland. Did he give off that impression? He was | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
identified early on as somebody who would rise up the ranks, first of | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
all as a paramilitary and perhaps then politically, but he gave the | :08:24. | :08:26. | |
impression of being steely and tough and that must have been the case as | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
a hard man who persuaded the IRA to give up weapons? He was a | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
contradiction, he had enormous charm and charisma but he was steely. | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
Behind the affable facade, the Chuckle Brothers if you like was a | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
hard, hard, dedicated republicans. I have interviewed him on more times | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
than I care to remember over the past 40 years. Occasionally when I | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
would ask a tough question, like over the Canary Wharf bombing after | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
Tony Blair was elected Prime Minister and I said to him - you | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
must have known about the bombing Mr McGuinness. Inhe said "Why would I | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
know about the bombing?" I looked him straight in the eye and said - | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
because you are Martin McGuinness. That's what I got what I call the | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
death stare. He is a contradiction but his role in bringing us to where | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
we are now is critical. He had the confidence and support of the IRA | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
rank and file to bring them on board to join remarkable political | :09:23. | :09:25. | |
accommodation. And that was one of his key roles in terms of persuading | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
them to come on board. We talked a little bit about how divisive he | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
was. And remained so in the unionists community for many people. | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
You were in Brighton at the time of the bombing at the hotel, at the | :09:40. | :09:42. | |
Conservative Party Conference which killed five people and left many | :09:43. | :09:45. | |
injured, including Norman Tebbit and his wie. Can you understand why he | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
could never forgive Martin McGuinness and is actually still | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
quite bitter? Oh, absolutely. I had several friends murdered by the IRA. | :09:56. | :10:03. | |
IRA as well as those at the hotel. I could so easily have been collateral | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
damage to all of that. It makes you think of the purpose of politics and | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
how much you are willing to give. I can never forget what happened. I | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
used to see Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams literally outside the | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
studio. I could not physically be in the same room as them. That's what | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
it meant to me, but, having said all that, what do my feelings matter? | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
What happened in Northern Ireland is so much more important. It's moved | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
on. It changed, McGuinness changed. And rather than going back and | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
dwelling on the past so much, which is all too much of a problem with | :10:41. | :10:43. | |
Irish politics, I think the importance is to move forward, look | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
to the future and build on what has changed there and so much changed | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
and wasn't it absolutely crystallised by the trip to Ireland, | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
the state visit to Ireland tlat Queen made. That was inconceivable | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
before that. Well many people thought that really was the bridging | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
there of two communities and also going back to the history? I think | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
his so-called conversion was genuine. People thought it was an | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
act that was not sincere. I think it was absolutely sincere but you have | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
to remember it was all part of the republican movement, the IRA-Sinn | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
Fein strategy, to achieve a United Ireland in the end, in the long | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
term, having realised that the so-called arms struggle had gone as | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
far as it could. Brits had made it clear that the IRA were not going to | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
win in the late 1980s because of the offensive by the SAS and others but | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
it was part of the long-term strategy, which was to bring the | :11:39. | :11:41. | |
unionist majority on board because the penny finally dropped with the | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
republicans that if there was to be a united Ireland, it had to be with | :11:46. | :11:48. | |
the consent of the majority population. That was the | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
recognition. Would there have been a peace process, or a successful one, | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
as it turned out, without Martin McGuinness? It's impossible to say | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
no. I think it is unlikely because it was Martin McGuinness and you | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
have to remember, it was a duo with Gerry Adams. Yes he was the more | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
political man I think Gerry Adams persuaded Martin McGuinness that | :12:11. | :12:12. | |
this was the way forward, that the arms struggle had gone as far as it | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
could. And it was Martin McGuinness crucially who persuaded the rank and | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
file of the IRA that this was the way forward. And I remember talking | :12:21. | :12:28. | |
to IRA "volunteers" about the tearing up the policy of never, | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
never having any sharing power in Stormont and they said - if it's | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
good enough for Martin, it's good enough for us. And that, of course | :12:38. | :12:40. | |
for many people was the proof that politics in the end can bring two | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
sides together, you know, implacable foes, like Ian Paisley and Martin | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
McGuinness. We've mentioned the Chuckle Brothers, those pictures of | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
them shaking hands and genuinely using your term, laughing together, | :12:54. | :12:56. | |
as if they general lineally worked together and liked each other. Do | :12:57. | :12:59. | |
you think it is a model for parties of the world if you are looking to | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
the future that you can be successful? Absolutely. What we have | :13:04. | :13:06. | |
now is peace in Northern Ireland. It's not secured but it is there. | :13:07. | :13:09. | |
And that is something to build on and it is a great lesson for | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
everybody who looks around the world and sees these hotspots, resentment | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
of civil war. Things do change and with appropriate leadership, yes we | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
can be in a better world. The The problem is, when you are dealing | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
with Alliedia and the so-called Islamic state, it is much much more | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
difficult, their agenda runs over 1,000 years, rather than 50 years. | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
We knew what the aim was. The problems in Ireland had been going | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
on for centuries But there was a political agenda on which there | :13:40. | :13:42. | |
could be discussions and negotiations. With regard to | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
Al-Qaeda and the so-called Islamic State, it is very difficult to | :13:47. | :13:49. | |
envisage that. Thank you for coming in. | :13:50. | :13:52. | |
The question for today is which former MP has announced | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
he is going to try and make a come back in the Manchester | :13:57. | :13:59. | |
At the end of the show, Michael will give us | :14:00. | :14:08. | |
Jeremy Corbyn met with his MPs at Westminster last night and it | :14:09. | :14:16. | |
didn't sound like an entirely harmonious affair, following claims | :14:17. | :14:18. | |
that a left-wing group is attempting to take over the party. | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
The row began yesterday morning with the deputy Labour leader | :14:24. | :14:26. | |
Tom Watson accusing the Unite union of being involved in | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
a "secret plot" to help the Corbyn-supporting Momentum group | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
take control of Labour after secretly recorded comments | :14:35. | :14:37. | |
made by Momentum's founder, Jon Lansman, were published saying | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
"Unite will affiliate to Momentum" rather than just to Labour. | :14:42. | :14:44. | |
Last night, the Unite leader, Len McCluskey described Mr Watson's | :14:45. | :14:47. | |
This is extraordinary behaviour by Tom Watson. | :14:48. | :14:53. | |
I've not had any meetings at all with Jon Lamsman, | :14:54. | :14:59. | |
on anything, including this latest nonsense that Tom's come out with. | :15:00. | :15:06. | |
The Unite boss spoke out at the same time Mr Corbyn addressed an angry | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
meeting of the Parliamentary Labour Party. | :15:11. | :15:12. | |
There was said to be shouting over the leadership's | :15:13. | :15:15. | |
handling of the issue, with one Labour MP referring to | :15:16. | :15:18. | |
Mr Watson was reportedly "cheered to the rafters" | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
as he arrived at the gathering, with senior figures challenging | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
claims he had been isolated and condemned at a "robust" earlier | :15:30. | :15:32. | |
In acknowledgment of the day's bruising rows, Mr Corbyn released | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
Sometimes spirits in the Labour Party can run high. | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
That's because we're a passionate party. | :15:42. | :15:49. | |
So I want to send a message to all party members. | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
I want to make absolutely clear - members are an asset. | :15:54. | :15:56. | |
As a party we must do more to involve and | :15:57. | :15:59. | |
Let's speak now to our political correspondent Carol Walker. | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
She was listening outside last night's meeting | :16:04. | :16:06. | |
of the Parliamentary Labour Party - and it sounds like she didn't have | :16:07. | :16:09. | |
Absolutely. There was an audible cheer at one stage and we learned | :16:10. | :16:23. | |
that that was when Tom Watson walked in. We heard that there were shouts | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
going on and we understand a lot of the anger was about a briefing which | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
had emerged, claiming that Jeremy Corbyn had slapped down Tom Watson | :16:35. | :16:41. | |
for his reckless intervention. Many Labour MPs were very angry indeed | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
about this. Some senior members of the Shadow Cabinet said that Tom | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
Watson had not been slapped down and at an earlier meeting of the Shadow | :16:53. | :16:55. | |
Cabinet there had been a lot of support for his view. There was | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
anger, with one MP talking about Jeremy Corbyn as a so-called leader. | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
He had sat there looking at the floor for quite a bit of the meeting | :17:06. | :17:09. | |
and then had to stand up at the end and appeal for everyone to start | :17:10. | :17:12. | |
talking about the issues which voters wanted to talk about rather | :17:13. | :17:15. | |
than internal issues within the Labour Party. Afterwards, one senior | :17:16. | :17:22. | |
figure a veteran of previous battles said it was like 1985 all over | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
again. Another very senior figure around at the time came out shortly | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
after and said, in fact, it was much worse than that. We have had this | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
appeal for unity from Jeremy Corbyn, something we've heard quite a few | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
times before, but I'm not sure that will be the end of this row. It | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
doesn't sound like it. Much of the row, as you've explained, centres on | :17:46. | :17:51. | |
the claim that the Unite union and Len McCluskey are planning to | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
affiliate to Momentum. Those were claims made by Jon Lansman. What has | :17:56. | :18:02. | |
happened with that. This matters because Unite is Labour's biggest | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
donor, so if it was going to switch allegiance or at least part of its | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
funding to Momentum, this left-wing activist group, that would be a very | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
big issue indeed. Unite has its own contest going on for leadership. Len | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
McCluskey is hoping to get another term as general secretary and has | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
dismissed the claims earlier as preposterous and has gone back on | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
the attack. Today he has written a blog for the Huffington Post website | :18:30. | :18:32. | |
in which she accuses Tom Watson of living in a world of skulduggery, | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
smears and secret plots, saying that when Labour needed loyalty Tom | :18:39. | :18:41. | |
Watson was sharpening his knife and looking for a back to stab. What we | :18:42. | :18:47. | |
are seeing now is pretty open warfare within the Labour Party. | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
Extraordinary as Tom Watson and led McCluskey used to be close but are | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
at one another's throats -- Len McCluskey. There are some struggles | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
with Labour MPs wanting Jeremy Corbyn to do more to stand up to | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
Momentum, as Tom Watson has done, whereas others say Tom Watson is | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
stirring up trouble and laying bare the wounds when we should be trying | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
to pull together. I think this one will run and run. | :19:14. | :19:14. | |
Let's speak now to the Labour MP Toby Perkins. | :19:15. | :19:16. | |
He resigned from his job as a shadow minister last year saying Mr Corbyn | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
wasn't destined to be Prime Minister. | :19:21. | :19:23. | |
You have listened to Carole Walker. Open warfare between two sites in | :19:24. | :19:30. | |
the Labour Party with Tom Watson being accused of skulduggery and | :19:31. | :19:33. | |
backstabbing by Len McCluskey. What is going on? I think that is | :19:34. | :19:41. | |
inflaming language and is not helpful. My county council | :19:42. | :19:44. | |
candidates are facing election and they are furious to see that at a | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
time when the entire party should be focused on getting good results in | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
the elections there is, first, Momentum apparently planning for a | :19:53. | :19:59. | |
future leadership election and supporting the Corbin leadership at | :20:00. | :20:02. | |
the moment, and this continues to go on. What we need is everyone to be | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
united on getting the best results in the election and I think there is | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
a lot of support for the fact that Tom Watson is the deputy leader of | :20:12. | :20:14. | |
the party and he sees a threat to the future of the Labour Party and | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
the tape that Jon Lansman was featured in was clear on seeing | :20:20. | :20:22. | |
money move away from the Labour Party towards Momentum and I think | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
he was right to speak up. You think Tom Watson was right to go public? | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
So what do you say to Len McCluskey? I would like Len McCluskey and I | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
will be voting in the Unite election, and I want to say that if | :20:39. | :20:41. | |
he is re-elected there is no question that they will affiliate to | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
Momentum. He said it was not planned but he has not made it clear that if | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
I'd vote for him in the leadership contest, he will prevent that | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
happening and I would liken to say that. You voted for him in that | :20:55. | :21:00. | |
contest? Probably not, but I think all voters have a right to know what | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
they are being asked to vote for and I think Len McCluskey should end a | :21:05. | :21:07. | |
lot of this speculation. What Jon Lansman has said, that if Len | :21:08. | :21:13. | |
McCluskey was re-elected that Unite would be affiliated to Momentum and | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
also the sensible measures that Jeremy Corbyn put in place to make | :21:18. | :21:20. | |
sure Momentum only allowed Labour members to join it were actually | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
being flouted under his leadership. These are serious allegations and | :21:26. | :21:28. | |
all others should be focusing on the elections. The chair of the | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
Parliamentary Labour Party, John Cryer, was reported to say last | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
night that he is convinced that Momentum is a party within a party. | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
How concerned are you about that influence? I am very concerned about | :21:43. | :21:48. | |
Momentum's influence. Jon Cryer is a left-wing voice who is a party | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
loyalist. He is absolutely on record as saying that we should have a very | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
wide body of opinion in the Labour Party, it's always been there. He | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
was critical of many things that Tony Blair did. But there was always | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
a place for John Cryer in the party and they should be in any sensible | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
political party, recognising people right across the spectrum within the | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
party. They should be united in trying to get the best results in | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
the elections. You sound angry about what is going on. And presumably | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
that was expressed at the Parliamentary Labour Party by you | :22:23. | :22:25. | |
and others last night? I walked out that meeting and see Seamus Milne | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
addressing the media about what is supposed to be a Private meeting. | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
It's not helpful. Seamus Milne, who is the chief aide to Jeremy Corbyn. | :22:35. | :22:41. | |
He was doing what? In previous meetings he is effectively holding a | :22:42. | :22:44. | |
press conference on what has just gone on in a private meeting and | :22:45. | :22:47. | |
it's not helpful. That is a Private meeting but it's fair to say that | :22:48. | :22:50. | |
the overwhelming mood of the meeting is that we should be united on | :22:51. | :22:55. | |
supporting county council candidates and the local government elections | :22:56. | :22:58. | |
in Scotland and Wales, and people close to Jeremy Corbyn and we should | :22:59. | :23:05. | |
not be looking at the next election it should be about the party now. | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
This is all about reflecting somebody with similar views to | :23:11. | :23:13. | |
Jeremy Corbyn taking over. You can draw your own conclusion if you | :23:14. | :23:16. | |
listen to the tape from Jon Lansman. In terms of what happens to the | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
Labour Party now, if you are cross about briefings going on from | :23:21. | :23:23. | |
Private meetings such as the Parliamentary Labour Party meeting | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
last night, what did you make about briefings against Tom Watson being | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
slapped down by the Shadow Cabinet? Again, I don't think that is | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
helpful. I think Tom Watson is speaking up for the party when he | :23:37. | :23:39. | |
sees and existentialists threat. It's the job of the deputy leader to | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
allow the leader to get on and do the politics and for the deputy | :23:44. | :23:46. | |
leader to deal with party matters. That is why Len McCluskey and Unite | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
were behind Tom Watson becoming deputy leader about 18 months ago. I | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
just wish everybody would get on with the job that they have. I think | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
Tom is absolutely right to speak up the party when he sees an | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
existential threat and I think Shadow Cabinet and the rest of the | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
PLP should support him. So we can stop talking about this rubbish and | :24:07. | :24:09. | |
talk about things like the Derbyshire County Council campaign | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
for a Labour authority. Labour is 19 points behind the Conservatives | :24:14. | :24:16. | |
despite what people have described as another on the shambles of a | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
budget. It does not look good. We are not pretending it is good. In a | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
really bad place. But we are only going to get in a better place when | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
organisations like Momentum spend their time talking about what goes | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
next rather than focusing on supporting Jeremy Corbyn. County | :24:35. | :24:37. | |
council candidates and local election candidates in Scotland and | :24:38. | :24:40. | |
Wales need support in what really important clashes coming up. | :24:41. | :24:42. | |
Well, speaking on Newsnight last night, Emily Thornberry, | :24:43. | :24:44. | |
the Shadow Foriegn Secretary, expressed frustration | :24:45. | :24:46. | |
at the in-fighting within the Labour Party. | :24:47. | :24:48. | |
When we have discussions on policies, actually it is quite | :24:49. | :24:51. | |
easy, relatively easy for us to come together. | :24:52. | :24:54. | |
Because this is a dreadful Government and we know that we have | :24:55. | :24:57. | |
to be an alternative to it and we want to be able | :24:58. | :24:59. | |
to put out a policy offer, and then we descend into personality | :25:00. | :25:02. | |
politics and fighting amongst ourselves and we have | :25:03. | :25:04. | |
and we have to focus on what the Labour Party | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
We're joined now by the shadow international trade | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
Welcome back to the programme. Isn't it somewhat hypocritical Jeremy | :25:13. | :25:23. | |
Corbyn in his video to call for unity when his people are briefing | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
against the deputy leader? Let's be clear. There was a joint statement | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
yesterday from both Tom and Jeremy. And what that said was that we must | :25:34. | :25:39. | |
focus on unity, absolutely right. It said that it was good that the | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
Labour Party was a broad spectrum of views from the centre-left of | :25:44. | :25:49. | |
British politics. That was right. So why were journalists briefed that | :25:50. | :25:52. | |
the deputy leader of the Labour Party was slapped down in the Shadow | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
Cabinet meeting? I never discuss what goes on Shadow Cabinet or what | :25:57. | :26:02. | |
goes on at the PLP for a very good reason, because they are Private | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
Reed -- meetings, and in private meetings you have to have the | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
freedom to express yourself. But there were off the record breath | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
freedoms to journalists who said Tom Watson was slapped down. -- off the | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
record briefings. You are trying to get me to say what is happening at | :26:19. | :26:21. | |
the meetings and I never comment on it. All I can say is, they should | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
not be any briefings Private meetings outside. Because what it | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
does is damage the process of free and open discussion. Was it right | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
for Tom Watson to talk openly about his fears about momentum taking over | :26:35. | :26:40. | |
the Labour Party? Part of the joint statement that was put out about | :26:41. | :26:43. | |
this said that every group within the party has the right to try and | :26:44. | :26:49. | |
influence the party and the policies. That is right, whether it | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
is progress, tribute, the Fabian Society. That is not what was said | :26:55. | :26:57. | |
in the recordings by Jon Lansman. Let's be clear, that is not what Tom | :26:58. | :27:03. | |
Watson was referring to. Jon Lansman was saying that Unite, the big donor | :27:04. | :27:06. | |
to the Labour Party was going to move some of its funding to Momentum | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
rather than keeping it with the Labour Party and that there were | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
plans to take over regional party selections, and influence | :27:18. | :27:19. | |
candidates. Was it right the Tom Watson came clean about that? Let me | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
be clear because you've asked a number of specific questions. The | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
first thing I would say is, the joint statement that Tom and Jeremy | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
put out also said that no group speaks for the leadership except | :27:34. | :27:41. | |
themselves. So the claim by any faction within the party that they | :27:42. | :27:44. | |
are speaking for Jeremy or the leadership is wrong. They made that | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
very clear. That is the question I ask you, was it right the Tom Watson | :27:50. | :27:52. | |
went public with what he sees as a battle for the core of the Labour | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
Party? I think every group within the Labour Party, as Tom himself | :27:58. | :28:00. | |
said in a statement, has the right to try and influence the party. What | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
they don't have the right to do, and this is the nub of the argument, is | :28:05. | :28:07. | |
they don't have the right to have people in their membership who are | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
not members of the Labour Party. So what do you say to Jon Lansman who | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
say they will not kick anyone out? That presumably includes people who | :28:18. | :28:20. | |
are not believers in the Labour Party? That would be absolutely | :28:21. | :28:26. | |
wrong for them to be a group that has people who are not Labour Party | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
members who are trying to influence the Labour Party policy from within. | :28:31. | :28:35. | |
Do you agree with Jon Cryer? Let me just ask this. It is also out with | :28:36. | :28:42. | |
the party rules. So they are not entitled. So what will you say to | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
Jon Lansman? I don't know Jon Lansman and I've never met him. What | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
should the leadership do? What must happen is that the general | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
secretary, if there are credible reports here, and don't forget that | :28:56. | :29:01. | |
this general secretary has been very energetic in making sure that | :29:02. | :29:04. | |
anybody who he believes is not a Labour Party member is expelled from | :29:05. | :29:11. | |
the party. Or, you know, who have a track record of being against the | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
Labour Party. And he has made sure that a number of people are not able | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
to join the Labour Party. That is the process that is already | :29:20. | :29:22. | |
happening within the Labour Party, and it's a matter for the general | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
secretary to address and look at, not actually for the leader. The | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
structure of the party puts that responsibility on the general | :29:32. | :29:33. | |
secretary. He is busily worried about it and feels there is a battle | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
for the party and he supported by the chairman of the Parliamentary | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
Labour Party, John Cryer, who says Momentum is acting as a party within | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
a party, and we are back to the 1980s. When Militant was infrared -- | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
infiltrating the Labour Party. Do you agree with John Cryer and Tom | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
Watson? I believe that anybody who is trying to gain entry into the | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
Labour Party who is not a Labour Party member or sympathiser and is | :30:00. | :30:01. | |
trying to influence the Labour Party should not be allowed to do it. Is | :30:02. | :30:07. | |
it as bad as the 1980s and Militant? I remember the 1980s and I was a | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
member of the party in those days. I don't believe it is. But it doesn't | :30:12. | :30:18. | |
matter whether it is as bad or less bad, it shouldn't happen. And that | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
is what the party must properly addressed through the rules that we | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
have, if it's happening, and I don't know whether it is. But if it is, it | :30:28. | :30:29. | |
must be done. Could I interject and ask a | :30:30. | :30:39. | |
question. You couldn't make 24 up about the Labour Party although | :30:40. | :30:42. | |
perhaps I did at some stage but it is a very serious case of political | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
in-fighting. Now, there's been a lot of talk recently about the poblted | :30:47. | :30:49. | |
of an early election being called. -- possibility. In order for that to | :30:50. | :30:53. | |
happen in most circumstances, the Parliamentary Labour Party would | :30:54. | :30:56. | |
have to vote for support of an early election. Jeremy Corbyn has always | :30:57. | :31:01. | |
said that he would do so if he were asked, if the question were put to | :31:02. | :31:04. | |
him, would the Parliamentary Labour Party support him on that? Would | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
they back an early election right now? Can I just say that there are | :31:10. | :31:12. | |
elections in this country. They are going to be happening in May and all | :31:13. | :31:19. | |
our energies quite rightly should be focussed on that. I'm talking about | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
a general election, we have had front pages and lots of speculation. | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
I am very happy to answer the question. This is a Government that | :31:28. | :31:34. | |
has a ?2 billion black hole in its Budget from last week because of the | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
national insurance contribution U-Turn. I don't hear you supporting | :31:39. | :31:40. | |
Jeremy Corbyn. This is a point that Jeremy has made himself. This is a | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
Government that took ?4.6 billion out of social care and a Government | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
that has had its own party fined the largest electoral fine... So would | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
you back a motion? Would you sporan early general election. I would like | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
to get rid of this awful Government adds quickly as possible and, | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
therefore, of course, I would sporan early general election because I | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
want Theresa May out and a Labour Government in as quickly as | :32:08. | :32:09. | |
possible. -- I would sporan early general election. Before we end, on | :32:10. | :32:17. | |
Len McCluskey, we heard the General Secretary of Unite, standing for | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
election again, accusing Tom Watson of skulduggery, is that helpful? | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
Given all I have said about the chaos going on in the Conservative | :32:27. | :32:29. | |
Party. And you are 19 points behind in the polls. I have children in my | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
school because of the funding formula, in my schools in my | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
constituency, will beeds 900 percapita. Why are you 19 points | :32:39. | :32:45. | |
behind. -- ?900. That's why we need to attack this Government not each | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
other. I don't care who it is. I don't want to see members of my | :32:50. | :32:52. | |
party attacking each other. I want to see them focus on the people | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
undermining this country, that's this Government. | :32:57. | :33:00. | |
Later today, the Scottish Parliament will begin a two-day | :33:01. | :33:02. | |
debate on whether to call for a second | :33:03. | :33:04. | |
If, as expected, MSPs back the motion, it will | :33:05. | :33:11. | |
from First Minister Nicola Sturgeon to Prime Minister | :33:12. | :33:14. | |
Theresa May for a rerun of the 2014 referendum. | :33:15. | :33:16. | |
Let's go to Edinburgh now and our Scotland Editor, Sarah Smith. | :33:17. | :33:18. | |
Sayeria, although they don't have an overall majority, Nicola Sturgeon's | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
SNP party will get this motion throw, won't they? They will because | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
the Scottish Greens will back them. They are also an | :33:29. | :33:30. | |
independence-supporting party and have made clear they'll vote with | :33:31. | :33:32. | |
the Scottish Government. So even though you have Labour, the Tories | :33:33. | :33:35. | |
and the Liberal Democrats all voting against t the SNP will carry the day | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
because in the Parliament there is an independence majority, even | :33:40. | :33:41. | |
though the SNP don't have an overall majority. Presumably Nicola Sturgeon | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
will then be able to say that the Prime Minister's position of | :33:47. | :33:49. | |
blocking a referendum in terms of timing, during the Brexit irrelevant | :33:50. | :33:53. | |
negotiations, will be democratically indefensible in her view? Exactly. | :33:54. | :33:58. | |
And this is the point at which the SNP will try and transform this from | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
a political argument between the SNP and Tories, into a constitutional | :34:03. | :34:05. | |
struggle between the Scottish Parliament and Westminster, saying | :34:06. | :34:08. | |
that the Scottish Parliament has spoken, they've asked for another | :34:09. | :34:12. | |
referendum and that, therefore, it is democratically indefensible, as | :34:13. | :34:15. | |
you say, for the Prime Minister to refuse it. And Nicola Sturgeon will | :34:16. | :34:18. | |
clear clear in the debate this afternoon, she is prepared to talk | :34:19. | :34:21. | |
about the timing. The preliminaries hasn't said never, she's said not | :34:22. | :34:25. | |
now. Nicola Sturgeon says she's not saying, now, she is asking for it to | :34:26. | :34:29. | |
be at some point just before or just after the UK leaves the EU and made | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
clear there is room for discussion there. It is not at all clear that | :34:34. | :34:36. | |
number ten are prepared 206 that conversation. So -- prepared to have | :34:37. | :34:41. | |
that conversation. So once this is done today and positions restated. | :34:42. | :34:44. | |
What happens next? Well, Nicola Sturgeon will go ahead and make that | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
formal request to the Prime Minister for a referendum. She needs the | :34:49. | :34:51. | |
parliamentary vote to give her the authority to do that. #1450e knows | :34:52. | :34:55. | |
what the answer is going to be -- she knows what the answer is going | :34:56. | :34:58. | |
to be the Prime Minister has made her position clear but she'll | :34:59. | :35:00. | |
continue to make the request and continue to make the argument say | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
saying they don't allow a referendum now the Conservative Government in | :35:05. | :35:07. | |
Westminster, and they will keep telling you a Government that only | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
had one Tory MP in Scotland are denying the will of the Scottish | :35:13. | :35:15. | |
Parliament. But the question is where is public opinion. The | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
unionists are convinced that the Scottish people don't want another | :35:20. | :35:21. | |
referendum and it depends where you stand on the independence question. | :35:22. | :35:24. | |
Yes, supporters are eager to have another vote. A lot of no voters say | :35:25. | :35:30. | |
they don't want to be dragged back into another divisive battle. | :35:31. | :35:33. | |
Whether or not the Scottish Government can win out this vote | :35:34. | :35:36. | |
with Westminster and get the referendum they are asking for will | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
largely depend on the public response after tomorrow. | :35:41. | :35:47. | |
Voting for the next President of France begins in just | :35:48. | :35:49. | |
over a month's time, a result that's likely | :35:50. | :35:50. | |
to have a major impact not only on France but the rest of Europe. | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
Last night saw the first TV debate between the main contenders, | :35:55. | :35:56. | |
and it focused on the economy, terrorism and immigration. | :35:57. | :35:58. | |
TRANSLATION: I want to put an end to immigration, | :35:59. | :36:08. | |
that's clear and I completely stand by what I'm saying. | :36:09. | :36:13. | |
I want to put an end to legal and illegal immigration. | :36:14. | :36:15. | |
TRANSLATION: I've said it very clearly. | :36:16. | :36:18. | |
It has nothing to do with secularism. | :36:19. | :36:20. | |
The trap you're falling into Mrs Le Pen, | :36:21. | :36:23. | |
with your provocation, is to divide society, | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
to make the more than 4 million French people, whose religion | :36:28. | :36:31. | |
is Islam, and the great majority, who are not into communitarianism, | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
but who live in our Republic, is to make them enemies of the Republic. | :36:37. | :36:42. | |
TRANSLATION: I may have committed some errors, I have faults, | :36:43. | :36:44. | |
TRANSLATION: The classic divide, the traditional parties, | :36:45. | :36:57. | |
those who have for decades failed to solve yesterday's problems, | :36:58. | :36:59. | |
won't be able to do it tomorrow, either. | :37:00. | :37:00. | |
Excerpts of a long debate last night. | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
We're joined now by Benedicte Paviot. | :37:05. | :37:05. | |
She's the UK correspondent for France 24. | :37:06. | :37:06. | |
Who won? I think, and the polls seem to agree with me, Mr Macron. He had | :37:07. | :37:13. | |
the most to lose and the most to prove. I think that he didn't lose | :37:14. | :37:19. | |
very much and I think that he mostly impressed people. Because this is an | :37:20. | :37:22. | |
unprecedented debate. Three hours and 25 minutes. There will be two | :37:23. | :37:28. | |
more. And five top candidates which some of the kands dates actually | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
were not happy about. There are 11 altogether standing for the | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
presidency. -- candidates. The biggest clashes between the two | :37:37. | :37:42. | |
frontrunners in the polls. The centrist, unelected, never elected | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
before, unproven, unelected Mr Macron, a centrist who doesn't want | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
to be from the left or right and madam Le Pen who was clear on who | :37:52. | :37:56. | |
her target was and Mr Macron was. She said he had an incredible | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
capacity to talk for seven minutes and say nothing. It is a great | :38:01. | :38:06. | |
talent for politicians, generally He said it was devoid of political | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
content. So she knows he is the man to beat. I didn't watch all but the | :38:12. | :38:17. | |
bit I watched, Francois Fillon, once the favourite, centre-right | :38:18. | :38:19. | |
candidate, he appeared pretty low keep and not edge gauged? I thought | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
he looked tired -- not engaged. Subdued. When I spoke I thought he | :38:25. | :38:31. | |
was clear and concise but he is dogged by the legal woes of this job | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
that his wife and that his children had. It is legal, in France, as it | :38:36. | :38:39. | |
is in the UK, to have members of your family who work for you as | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
parliamentary assistants, what isillegal is for them not to do the | :38:44. | :38:48. | |
work and get paid and those are the allegations. Some people will say it | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
is amazing he is still standing literally in this contest, Francois | :38:53. | :38:55. | |
Fillon but the result of this presidential election will be | :38:56. | :38:58. | |
critical, as we said not just for France but the rest of Europe? In a | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
which it is, of course it is. You have such polarised views. It is | :39:03. | :39:05. | |
interesting, looking at the grouping there, as we can see on the monitor, | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
all of the member look as if they have come out of central casting, | :39:11. | :39:13. | |
you have to look at their socks to see the slightest bit of difference | :39:14. | :39:21. | |
between any of them. The question I have for Benedicte, in this | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
election, the accepted view is that Macron will beat Le Pen in the | :39:26. | :39:29. | |
run-off but if that's the case does it resolve anything? Doesn't it | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
still cast France into another few years of uncertainty as these force | :39:34. | :39:36. | |
that is are apparent in this election are still carrying on, it | :39:37. | :39:40. | |
won'tp end up with things going back to normal because there there is no | :39:41. | :39:43. | |
normal any more? There is no norm A of course France is still in a state | :39:44. | :39:52. | |
of emergency. -- no normal. And the pictures described by Marine Le Pen | :39:53. | :39:55. | |
of a divided France and a France that needs to bring jobs, in a sense | :39:56. | :40:01. | |
quite Trump-like, back home. She obviouslip wants a Frexit. Mr Macron | :40:02. | :40:06. | |
would not agree with you if he were here to answer that question. He | :40:07. | :40:09. | |
would say that he is the man for the time and the situation and that he | :40:10. | :40:12. | |
has the solution because he believes that you can't have the same old | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
faces. He has made it clear that he will have new people in his | :40:17. | :40:19. | |
government. He has a small problem, though, what he needs to do and | :40:20. | :40:26. | |
indeed let's be clear, it is historic, if Mr Macron and Madame Le | :40:27. | :40:32. | |
Pen go through to the second round it will be unprecedented. Why? | :40:33. | :40:38. | |
Because it will be the first time that the two socialist, central | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
parties don't make clue to the next round and if Mr Macron makes it | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
through, at 39, an unelected man, he will need a majority in the | :40:47. | :40:49. | |
parliamentary elections that follow afterwards but he will have proven | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
that for the first time ever in France, a centrist can win, that | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
will be unprecedented. It is always left or right. Brief li, April 23rd, | :40:58. | :41:03. | |
the fist round and the second round, the run-off is... 7th May. A Sunday | :41:04. | :41:11. | |
in France. Always. And briefly, too. If it is Madame Le Pen and Macron, | :41:12. | :41:19. | |
the difficulty for him he has to attract voters for other parties but | :41:20. | :41:22. | |
she has a solid vote. They are not going to waver now Interesting you | :41:23. | :41:26. | |
point that out. We see in the polls people who say they are going to | :41:27. | :41:31. | |
vote for Marine Le Pen, won't change their vote, they know they'll | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
already vote for her. The problem for Mr Macron, trying to plough a | :41:36. | :41:41. | |
new thorough, his vote is much more of a waving vote so. When it comes | :41:42. | :41:44. | |
to the second round will the traditional holding your nose and | :41:45. | :41:48. | |
voting, as happened with Marine Le Pen's father, be it OK the | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
socialists think OK he is not ideal but he is better than Le Pen. | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
Results on the night of the 7th May. Thank you. | :41:57. | :41:59. | |
It's definitely not the largest sector of the economy but it played | :42:00. | :42:02. | |
a big role in the EU referendum campaign - fishing. | :42:03. | :42:04. | |
And when it comes to negotiating the UK's | :42:05. | :42:06. | |
departure, it's got it all - regulations, money, imports, | :42:07. | :42:08. | |
exports, British boats fishing in EU waters, | :42:09. | :42:10. | |
Adam's been to Aberdeenshire to find out. | :42:11. | :42:22. | |
Very, very early in the morning in Peterhead, the biggest market | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
I'm meeting skipper, Aaron Brown who runs the campaign | :42:28. | :42:30. | |
They organised the imfamous flotilla during the referendum campaign. | :42:31. | :42:39. | |
Now Aaron has penned a 100-page plan for the industry when it leaves | :42:40. | :42:42. | |
Europe's Common Fisheries Policy, the CFP. | :42:43. | :42:49. | |
First thing on his mind isn't fish, it's the Great Repeal Bill | :42:50. | :42:53. | |
which will copy EU law into British law. | :42:54. | :42:56. | |
Article 50 gives us a clean slate to leave. | :42:57. | :42:59. | |
If we readopt all the legislation, then we've effectively re-agreed | :43:00. | :43:04. | |
to it and nailed our feet to the floor. | :43:05. | :43:07. | |
So when the Great Repeal Bill happens you just want them to edit | :43:08. | :43:10. | |
Fishing needs to be exempted from the Great Repeal Bill or we'll | :43:11. | :43:16. | |
Who do you think should have access to our fishing waters? | :43:17. | :43:22. | |
Well, to begin with, only UK vessels should have access. | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
Thereafter we can do the same as what Norway, Iceland, | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
Faroe do and negotiate on an equal exchange barter basis, | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
with the EU, but as we have the lion's share of resources | :43:36. | :43:38. | |
in north-western European waters don't need EU waters. | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
So that's haddock, that was caught under a quota, all of this. | :43:44. | :43:46. | |
What do you want to happen with quotas? | :43:47. | :43:48. | |
Well, the Government's got - when we get out of Europe - | :43:49. | :43:50. | |
That vessels will be able to catch more but land less. | :43:51. | :44:00. | |
You will be able to retain all the fish you catch, | :44:01. | :44:02. | |
instead of having to discard, like you do under quotas, | :44:03. | :44:04. | |
where you have steam all over the sea, catching more and more | :44:05. | :44:07. | |
and more fish just to find what you are allowed to keep | :44:08. | :44:10. | |
Days at sea, a vessel goes out, it is limited by its time | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
That means better science, better profitability | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
Personally, I just hope they ditch the rules forcing | :44:19. | :44:21. | |
The UK Government hasn't said much about its plans for the fishing | :44:22. | :44:34. | |
industry but there was a clue in the Brexit white paper, where it | :44:35. | :44:37. | |
says it wants to reach a deal that's mutually beneficial | :44:38. | :44:39. | |
for the UK and the EU, which suggests they're not aiming | :44:40. | :44:42. | |
for the hard Brexit that campaigners would like. | :44:43. | :44:44. | |
And the Fishing to Leave vision isn't shared by everyone | :44:45. | :44:47. | |
in the industry, an industry that's so entwined in Europe, | :44:48. | :44:55. | |
that what happens to it will tell us a lot about the whole process | :44:56. | :44:59. | |
We're joined now from Edinburgh by the SNP MSP Stewart Stevenson, | :45:00. | :45:02. | |
and from Brussels by UKIP's Fisheries spokesman Mike Hookem. | :45:03. | :45:09. | |
Can I start with you, Mike? The government and the Brexit White | :45:10. | :45:15. | |
Paper said they wanted to reach a deal on fishing that was mutually | :45:16. | :45:18. | |
beneficial, so is anything going to change? Obviously not. As a party, | :45:19. | :45:26. | |
we are saying this is a red line and this should not be crossed. These | :45:27. | :45:32. | |
are our Al Waters and we want these fish back. This has to be in the | :45:33. | :45:36. | |
wrecks of negotiations and has to be got across and it is a red line and | :45:37. | :45:42. | |
we are not going to retreat on this -- the Brexit negotiations. But you | :45:43. | :45:47. | |
are confident it will be a red line? It could be that the government | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
regard fishing is one of those areas it could negotiate a way to get a | :45:52. | :45:58. | |
better deal overall? Absolutely. Let's not forget that it was Ted | :45:59. | :46:01. | |
Heath who gave the fisheries away back in the 70s and it will be a | :46:02. | :46:04. | |
Tory government that does the same this time. I've no confident | :46:05. | :46:10. | |
whatsoever in David Davis or Theresa May in negotiating this. As I've | :46:11. | :46:16. | |
said, for us it is a red line and we want the fisheries back and we want | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
the waters back. Stuart Stevenson, what would you like to see? We heard | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
in the film talks about who should have access to British waters. Who | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
should have access to British waters for fishing? There are two vital | :46:30. | :46:33. | |
things for fishing. First of all we need to repatriate the economic zone | :46:34. | :46:40. | |
in which the fishing responsibilities are discharged, | :46:41. | :46:43. | |
that is for certain. But equally we need to have access to the European | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
market and we need free movement of people because there is no point in | :46:48. | :46:54. | |
simply catching large amount of fish when we deprive ourselves of the | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
economic opportunity that comes from processing the fish. The food | :46:59. | :47:03. | |
industry in Scotland is a ?5.5 billion industry. It is dependent | :47:04. | :47:07. | |
heavily on exports, so we need to be in the kind of position that we get | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
the fishing rights back but we also continue to have a good and fruitful | :47:12. | :47:14. | |
relationship with the European Union. So in terms of getting the | :47:15. | :47:20. | |
rights back in the waters back, you have common ground with Ukip? I | :47:21. | :47:26. | |
don't have much common ground with Ukip at all. On that issue you do. | :47:27. | :47:31. | |
They are talking about keeping people out of the country on which | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
the processing industry in his area, in a hole and Grimsby and in | :47:36. | :47:39. | |
Peterhead and Fraser Brown, so there is a fundamental difference. The | :47:40. | :47:44. | |
Scottish Government in its compromise with the UK Government | :47:45. | :47:49. | |
has made the point that we expect to be out of the Common fisheries | :47:50. | :47:55. | |
policy but we must retain the rights to free movement people, and that is | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
a fundamental difference from the isolationist position that Ukip | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
preparing today. The fishing industry currently only directly | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
employs some 11,000 people in the UK. Do you see that drastically | :48:09. | :48:16. | |
increasing after Brexit? This is a multi-billion pound industry we | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
could regain. We need reinvestment in the ports and in new vessels. | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
It's quite astonishing that Mr Stevenson is standing there now when | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
we know that over 90% of Scottish fishermen voted to leave the | :48:30. | :48:34. | |
European Union, and he wants a referendum to leave the United | :48:35. | :48:37. | |
Kingdom but he wants to go into the European Union. And hand the fishing | :48:38. | :48:43. | |
fleet some waters to the European Union. We want to rebuild the | :48:44. | :48:50. | |
fishing vessels and fleets and rebuild the industry. It is a | :48:51. | :48:53. | |
massive industry and let's not forget that for every one man at sea | :48:54. | :48:59. | |
there are ten jobs onshore. 90% of Scottish vitamin voted to leave? Is | :49:00. | :49:06. | |
that the case? -- fisher men. I think it's absolutely clear that the | :49:07. | :49:10. | |
SNP have opposed the common fisheries policy from day one. | :49:11. | :49:14. | |
Indeed we campaigned in 1975 for a no vote in the EEC. The important | :49:15. | :49:21. | |
point is that we need to have the ten people onshore in our area of | :49:22. | :49:30. | |
economic interest. Our paper proposed to the UK Government says | :49:31. | :49:35. | |
we are out, and I think that is the right compromise for us to move | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
forward. We've heard nothing whatsoever from the UK Government in | :49:40. | :49:42. | |
response to the paper we produced in December. It is time they read it | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
and responded. And as you say, we've not heard much in terms of what the | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
government intended to do. Do you think Michael Dobbs will prioritise | :49:51. | :49:56. | |
fishing in the Brexit negotiations? I think it's a wonderful | :49:57. | :49:59. | |
opportunity. We talk about the great repeal bill but it's actually a | :50:00. | :50:02. | |
continuity bill because the laws will be the same as D+ one. That is | :50:03. | :50:09. | |
not what the fishermen in the film wanted. They want a break. But the | :50:10. | :50:16. | |
laws after that bill will be British laws, not European laws, meaning we | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
can do what we think is right. And continue the practices of the common | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
fisheries policy? I would be astonished. One thing that will | :50:26. | :50:28. | |
continue is the rights of EU residents, which everyone is trying | :50:29. | :50:32. | |
to cause a fuss about, but clearly there will be major changes to the | :50:33. | :50:37. | |
current fisheries system. What makes you think there will be major | :50:38. | :50:41. | |
changes? Do you think the government will go to war over fishing if it | :50:42. | :50:45. | |
gets tough in the negotiations? This is not a 0-sum game. We will get a | :50:46. | :50:51. | |
better deal because we are in a strong position, as we have heard. | :50:52. | :50:57. | |
British waters are very much more extensive than European waters. Are | :50:58. | :51:01. | |
you reassured by those words from Michael Dobbs about what the | :51:02. | :51:07. | |
government will do? I'm not. We have been betrayed in the past by a Tory | :51:08. | :51:10. | |
government and we will be betrayed again. For the waters back, we need | :51:11. | :51:16. | |
the fish back, and it's a multi-billion pound industry that we | :51:17. | :51:19. | |
would be gaining and it needs a massive investment. The government | :51:20. | :51:24. | |
needs to promise that. I want them to promise it will not be a | :51:25. | :51:30. | |
bargaining chip with Brussels, to say hands of our fish. It seems from | :51:31. | :51:35. | |
what the government said is that everything is potentially up for | :51:36. | :51:38. | |
being bargained over or negotiated over when it comes to these two | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
years, but Stuart Stevenson, your comments about the common fisheries | :51:43. | :51:46. | |
policy, and you would like to do that, but you are pro-EU. Do you | :51:47. | :51:51. | |
welcome Brexit in the regard that you might be able to get rid of the | :51:52. | :51:54. | |
common fisheries policy? I don't know what Brexit means. The UK | :51:55. | :51:59. | |
Government has given is very little insight. The important thing is that | :52:00. | :52:03. | |
over the next couple of years we get to a position where we understand | :52:04. | :52:06. | |
what the UK Government is taking us into. The danger is we will block | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
free movement of people and will damage the fishing industry and many | :52:12. | :52:14. | |
other industries in Scotland than through the UK. The Scottish | :52:15. | :52:18. | |
Government has an alternative offer and that is the contrast and | :52:19. | :52:23. | |
opportunity that we will have in two years' time, or at a time that is | :52:24. | :52:27. | |
appropriate to decide whether to endorse what looks like a very | :52:28. | :52:33. | |
unfavourable outcome from the Brexit negotiations coming from the Tory | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
government and an alternative where we simply make the decisions in | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
Scotland that matter to this industry and to all the people in | :52:42. | :52:44. | |
industries that operate in Scotland. Thank you both very much. | :52:45. | :52:47. | |
Now, you may remember reading | :52:48. | :52:48. | |
newspaper reports suggesting that Warner Brothers, | :52:49. | :52:50. | |
the Hollywood studio responsible for films including | :52:51. | :52:51. | |
is considering making a movie about Brexit. | :52:52. | :52:56. | |
That was at least according to the spokesman for Arron Banks, | :52:57. | :52:59. | |
a leading donor to the campaign to leave the EU. | :53:00. | :53:02. | |
It was even suggested that our guest of the day, | :53:03. | :53:05. | |
Michael Dobbs, might be asked to write the screenplay. | :53:06. | :53:08. | |
It's not clear if these reported talks with Hollywood executives | :53:09. | :53:10. | |
have proved fruitful, or if they've approached anyone | :53:11. | :53:12. | |
But if the project does ever get off the ground, what would it look like? | :53:13. | :53:20. | |
Sometimes it is the true stories that we love the most. Even when we | :53:21. | :53:35. | |
know what happens at the end. But what kind of a film is Brexit the | :53:36. | :53:43. | |
movie? If Boris Johnson had his way, it would probably be a war film. | :53:44. | :53:48. | |
There was, after all, an invasion on the Thames, with each side trying to | :53:49. | :53:55. | |
torpedo the other's campaign. A romantic comedy, perhaps? He was the | :53:56. | :53:58. | |
Prime Minister who never realised how much he had in common with the | :53:59. | :54:01. | |
Lib Dems and Labour and the Green party. OK, maybe not a romance, but | :54:02. | :54:08. | |
quite a comedy sometimes. Mid range, the worst case, the mid range is a | :54:09. | :54:13. | |
?30 billion hole in the public finances. For others, there were | :54:14. | :54:16. | |
bits worthy of a horror film and plenty of people thought he was a | :54:17. | :54:24. | |
nightmare. Then again, maybe it could be a silent movie. That is, | :54:25. | :54:29. | |
after all, how some Labour MPs described Jeremy Corbyn during the | :54:30. | :54:32. | |
campaign. But is any of this realistic? I just can't envisage a | :54:33. | :54:39. | |
serious drama about Brexit and about leaving the EU generally. I can see | :54:40. | :54:44. | |
maybe some kind of satirical comedy. You could almost imagine maybe like | :54:45. | :54:48. | |
Will Ferrell playing one of the parts or Riki ger rays. A broad | :54:49. | :54:53. | |
comedy, maybe. A musical, I would like to see the Muppets go Brexit or | :54:54. | :55:00. | |
the Muppets Brexit caper. I can imagine Kermit the frog playing | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
Nigel Farage and Fozzie Bear playing Boris Johnson. It almost works. | :55:05. | :55:07. | |
We're joined now by the journalist Isabel Oakeshott. | :55:08. | :55:09. | |
She edited the book by Arron Banks about his campaign to leave the EU. | :55:10. | :55:14. | |
So, fill us in. Is there any truth to any of this or is it just | :55:15. | :55:22. | |
fanciful? I don't think it's 100% bluster. Not 100% because I was | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
actually in Washington a couple of months ago where there were | :55:27. | :55:30. | |
definitely talks involving some quite high-level producers but as | :55:31. | :55:34. | |
everybody knows, lots and lots of books get looked at with a view to | :55:35. | :55:38. | |
these things and half the time it results in nothing. That said, I | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
think this would make a fantastic farcical series. We don't stand to | :55:43. | :55:48. | |
gain anything from it personally, but I think it writes itself. It's a | :55:49. | :55:52. | |
little series you could have, a kind of Brexit themed Thick Of It. What | :55:53. | :55:59. | |
about Michael Dobbs writing the screenplay? I was supposed to have | :56:00. | :56:05. | |
been hiding according to Aaron Banks's spokesman, hiding in the | :56:06. | :56:10. | |
toilet, writing the script. Actually I was at home in Wiltshire. You can | :56:11. | :56:16. | |
kiss and tell all. Would you like to write the screenplay? No. I'm more | :56:17. | :56:23. | |
looking forward to next Wednesday and the triggering of Article 50 and | :56:24. | :56:26. | |
getting rid of this nonsense and looking forward rather than going | :56:27. | :56:29. | |
back and analysing who said what in the past. That to me is already | :56:30. | :56:34. | |
ancient history. But you are a man who likes political drama. For | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
goodness sake, you wrote House of Cards. Surely this is great material | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
for the next big political drama? It may be but there are more serious | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
issues out there. And having been told that I was going to be writing | :56:48. | :56:51. | |
this without anybody having mentioned it, I took a smidgen of | :56:52. | :56:57. | |
offence at that. I see. You keep mentioning the word serious but you | :56:58. | :57:00. | |
are barking up the wrong tree. Nobody is suggesting it needs to be | :57:01. | :57:04. | |
serious. You say it is all over, but we have another two years of toing | :57:05. | :57:09. | |
and froing and goodness knows what happens after. I just think it's an | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
extraordinary story, and you look at the character of Aaron Banks. How | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
did this insurance broker who is working in a David Brent style | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
office outside Bristol somehow become such a key player in the | :57:23. | :57:26. | |
whole campaign and end up in the Golden lived with Donald Trump? How | :57:27. | :57:30. | |
the heck did it happen? -- the Golden lived. Is it to Beltway? It | :57:31. | :57:38. | |
all comes down to writing and you need somebody of your calibre to do | :57:39. | :57:42. | |
it. She is softening you up. And the Americans are interested in the | :57:43. | :57:46. | |
story, that's another selling point. That is true. Do you think the | :57:47. | :57:51. | |
Americans would actually engage? They have no understanding | :57:52. | :57:55. | |
whatsoever about Brexit. They think the European Union is something like | :57:56. | :57:59. | |
a pale reflection of the United States, and when they get close to | :58:00. | :58:04. | |
it, they draw back in horror. They would have to laugh about it but I | :58:05. | :58:08. | |
don't think they could take it seriously. Who would you have is | :58:09. | :58:13. | |
Nigel Farage? James Nesbitt. But who would play Andy Wigmore? A | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
lesser-known character but actually the much more colourful character. I | :58:18. | :58:21. | |
know Andy would love it to be somebody like George Clooney. | :58:22. | :58:23. | |
Suggestions on a postcard. There's just time before we go | :58:24. | :58:25. | |
to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was which former MP has | :58:26. | :58:28. | |
announced he is going to try and make a come back | :58:29. | :58:31. | |
in the Manchester Given that the other three are | :58:32. | :58:42. | |
earning great sums of money elsewhere, I would think it has to | :58:43. | :58:43. | |
be gorgeous George. It was George Galloway, | :58:44. | :58:44. | |
who predicted The One O'Clock News is starting | :58:45. | :58:46. | |
over on BBC One now. | :58:47. | :58:55. |