Browse content similar to 28/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
Suncream, cold remedies and gluten-free food will no longer | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
be available on prescription from the NHS in England - | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
as the boss of the health service attempts to cut costs. | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
Ahead of Theresa May triggering Britain's exit from the EU tomorrow, | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
campaigners for the UK to retain the closest possible ties to the EU | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
demand the Prime Minister sticks to ten key promises on Brexit. | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
Former Education Secretary Nicky Morgan joins me live. | :01:01. | :01:07. | |
David Cameron promised the government would go "all out" | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
Three years on - what's the future of shale gas in Britain? | :01:11. | :01:16. | |
And are businesses and members of the public ready | :01:17. | :01:18. | |
for the brand-new, high-tech ?1 coin, | :01:19. | :01:20. | |
I like the crown, the silver in the middle. | :01:21. | :01:28. | |
With me for the whole of the programme today | :01:29. | :01:47. | |
I'm joined by Tom Crotty, director of the chemicals company | :01:48. | :01:50. | |
Ineos which operates, amongst other things, | :01:51. | :01:52. | |
the Grangemouth Oil Refinery near Falkirk, in Scotland. | :01:53. | :02:01. | |
Later this week, the head of NHS England will issue an update on how | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
the health service is performing during one of the tightest funding | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
The Government claims to have pledged an extra | :02:11. | :02:13. | |
?10 billion by 2020, but health service managers | :02:14. | :02:15. | |
For some time they've warned that unless the NHS is given more money, | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
Today NHS England said it would review whether to start | :02:20. | :02:26. | |
charging for certain products currently available on prescription. | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
NHS England said it was looking at a proposal to restrict some | :02:30. | :02:32. | |
medicines currently available on NHS prescription. | :02:33. | :02:35. | |
In many cases, it would cost the patient less to buy them over | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
the counter than it does the NHS to prescribe them. | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
Health commissioners have drawn up an initial list of 10 products, | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
and say scrapping prescriptions for these products could | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
-- and say limiting prescriptions for these products could save ?100 | :02:52. | :03:00. | |
million a year. Ending prescriptions | :03:01. | :03:03. | |
for gluten-free foods would account for ?20 million of this - | :03:04. | :03:05. | |
a fifth of the total saving. Restricting prescriptions | :03:06. | :03:08. | |
for Omega 3 and fish oils, muscle ointments and travel vaccines | :03:09. | :03:10. | |
could save another ?20 million. Limiting prescriptions | :03:11. | :03:13. | |
for six other drugs, whose effectiveness is questioned, | :03:14. | :03:15. | |
accounts for the remaining NHS Clinical Commissioners, | :03:16. | :03:17. | |
which represents local health managers who are in charge | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
of spending, says further restrictions on the likes | :03:22. | :03:24. | |
of suncream, cough and cold remedies and heartburn medicines could bring | :03:25. | :03:26. | |
the saving to ?400 million a year. But to put these numbers in context, | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
NHS England's budget is ?120 billion this year, | :03:32. | :03:34. | |
and the move will affect less We can speak now to the BBC's | :03:35. | :03:37. | |
Health Editor, Hugh Pym. Looking at those figures, if the | :03:38. | :03:55. | |
savings on relatively small compared to the size of the NHS budget, is it | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
really worth it? Well, I suppose the argument is you've got to start | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
somewhere if you're running NHS England and you have to achieve | :04:08. | :04:10. | |
efficiency savings on a large scale never before achieved by the NHS. | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
128 million a year to start off with is at least a start, maybe moving to | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
400 million in due course. That can be reinvested in other forms of | :04:23. | :04:25. | |
patient care is deemed to be more necessary. Just to be clear, there | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
are some health commissioning groups in England already refusing to | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
prescribe gluten-free food. So some of these things are already | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
happening. What the health commissioners are calling for its | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
national guidelines from NHS England so that everybody does the same | :04:42. | :04:44. | |
thing, the same as you've been saying with Iomega fish oils, muscle | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
robs and ointments, and possibly in due course moving to stop | :04:49. | :04:55. | |
prescribing cold and cough remedies, indigestion medicines, which can be | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
bought regularly over the counter quite cheaply. The argument against | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
is that there will be a small number of people affected by this. Coeliac, | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
who depend on gluten-free food, have been saying that it is more | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
expensive, particularly for children. Therefore having a | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
prescribed is reasonable. The other side of the argument is that it is a | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
lot easier to get gluten-free food now in supermarket. Some people will | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
be surprised that prescriptions were actually given for things like | :05:22. | :05:24. | |
paracetamol, unless you're using it over a very long period of time. How | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
have they decided which products to actually saying they're not going to | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
give prescriptions any more to? Their starting off with a list of | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
ten that we've just been seeing, which include certain types of | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
medication for different conditions, which is deemed to be too expensive | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
at the moment because the pharmaceutical company has priced it | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
too highly. And gluten-free foods, as we have been saying, and fish | :05:53. | :05:55. | |
oils. So there are clear about those ten. What we don't know is how much | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
further they want to go in terms of these over-the-counter remedies and | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
paracetamol. You can buy that sort of stuff pretty cheaply at a | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
pharmacist, or a supermarket, and it can cost the NHS more to buy it. So | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
does it make any sense for the NHS to prescribe it when a patient can | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
buy themselves extremely cheaply? Equally questions have been raised | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
about what it means for people on low incomes and benefits who do need | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
painkillers as part of managing their condition. Why should they | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
have to pay for something that was being prescribed? It is being | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
emphasised these are guidelines to GPs, who will still have discretion | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
about who they prescribe too. Clearly there will be a lot of | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
debate around this ahead of the announcement by Simon 's deepens, | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
head of NHS England, of his big strategic review. -- Simon Stephens. | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
He will tell us more about how at a time of rising patient demand, the | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
NHS can manage its finances. Thank you. | :06:53. | :06:53. | |
We've been joined by the Conservative MP | :06:54. | :06:55. | |
Dr Sarah Wollaston, who chairs the Commons Health Select Committee, | :06:56. | :06:57. | |
and by Labour's shadow health minister Julie Cooper. | :06:58. | :07:00. | |
Welcome to both of you. Sarah, do you welcome the restrictions? I | :07:01. | :07:07. | |
broadly welcomed this, with the caveat that there should be | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
discretion because if you have a complete blanket ban it doesn't | :07:12. | :07:14. | |
allow for exceptional circumstances. But when we look at the items on the | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
list, things like gluten-free products, when I started as a GP it | :07:20. | :07:22. | |
was difficult to get hold of gluten-free products and they were | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
very expensive. Now the costs has significantly come down and I think | :07:28. | :07:29. | |
it's much more reasonable to ask people to think of buying those, | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
where possible, themselves. By Julie, do you agree? A balance has | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
to be achieved. We need to look at this, but it does seem a very | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
strange initial list that has been developed. On the one hand, we have | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
suntan lotion. On the other hand, serious pain relief for serious | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
conditions. I don't think anybody wants to see any patient in the | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
position that they were denied access to vital pain relief. Are | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
they going to be denied on the basis of cost? Absolutely. Clearly there | :07:59. | :08:06. | |
is a pressure on reduction of cost, albeit a small amount given the | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
total NHS budget. But some of the things, I'm really quite surprised | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
to hear mention of. In 24 years of working impunity pharmacy I never | :08:16. | :08:18. | |
saw anyone get a prescription for suntan lotion. Ever! That's why I | :08:19. | :08:25. | |
ask why these particular products have been chosen. You can see with | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
paracetamol, you can buy a very cheaply in a supermarket if you | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
aren't using it all the time. So that makes sense. Have some cream | :08:35. | :08:41. | |
been prescribed? In exceptional circumstances there are some people | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
with serious skin conditions where sun exposure can be dangerous for | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
them. As a general rule, no, we should be prescribing suncream. The | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
other point here is that this should be part of a wider review. There is | :08:53. | :08:58. | |
a campaign could Choosing Wisely which sets out five questions that | :08:59. | :09:01. | |
people should always be asking their doctor before they have any | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
procedures. For example, is this necessary, is this necessary, what | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
are the side effects, what would happen if I'd do nothing at all? | :09:13. | :09:15. | |
Those kinds of questions have much more careful consideration about | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
drugs and how their prescribed, and whether there really necessary. It | :09:21. | :09:22. | |
sounds like this is the beginning of what will be a longer list, | :09:23. | :09:25. | |
certainly in terms of guidelines, where there will be a tightening up | :09:26. | :09:32. | |
on prescriptions. Would you back that, to? I would back a wide review | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
of the whole situation. Clearly, we have to take into account some of | :09:38. | :09:40. | |
the vulnerable people in society. Some people on low incomes as well | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
you get access to prescriptions currently. The whole issue of access | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
to medication is an important one because if patients choose not, or | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
feel that they're unable to afford to buy these products, like coeliac | :09:54. | :09:59. | |
products, the gluten-free food, it might contradict what is trying to | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
be achieved. If people end up with expensive hospitalisation, that's | :10:05. | :10:07. | |
contrary to what the aim was in the first place. Let's make it clear, in | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
your mind, Sarah, is it your understanding of those entitled to | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
free prescriptions, the elderly, would be exempt from having to pay | :10:18. | :10:20. | |
over the counter for those things? I think the point is that there should | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
always be exceptions. It would be at the discretion of the GP and | :10:26. | :10:28. | |
patients. But it wouldn't be generally. It's quite clear groups | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
of people who are already exempt, children, the elderly, people on low | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
incomes, do you think there should be a commitment that they would | :10:38. | :10:40. | |
continue to get them free? People who have to pay for their | :10:41. | :10:43. | |
prescriptions, it's far more expensive to pay the prescription | :10:44. | :10:46. | |
charge than to buy your paracetamol over-the-counter. Is it? The other | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
thing is on the list of products, there are some things that are | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
called items of limited clinical value. Things that you have to be | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
asking should the NHS be prescribing any way? There is an issue of waste. | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
One of the other issues as travel vaccinations. If you can afford a | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
long haul flight, the argument is you can afford to pay for your own | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
jabs. Tyre that's why we need a full review. Nobody wants to see the NHS | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
wasting vital funding. Coming back to the point about people eligible | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
for free prescriptions, I think it's absolutely clear that the elderly, | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
and children, who happened to have life affecting conditions, in my | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
view, we ought to look very seriously about continuing. If this | :11:31. | :11:37. | |
applies stopped for them, for these products, I suspect that the saving | :11:38. | :11:40. | |
would be as great anyway, which means that we do need this review on | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
the impact on the wider NHS. All right. What is your take on it? I | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
think there is definitely an affordability issue and I can see | :11:51. | :11:53. | |
why we need the review. I think it does need to be wider. I was | :11:54. | :11:56. | |
surprised that some of these things were wrong prescription. For | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
example, I have my 60th birthday this year and I went to the doctors | :12:02. | :12:04. | |
for a prescription and found that I didn't have to pay. I was amazed, | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
because I hadn't realised. My immediate thought was, well, there | :12:10. | :12:12. | |
are people who need this free prescription and I'm not one of | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
them. How can we assure the people who need them getting them? Again, | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
looking ahead to what will be decided overall funding, this isn't | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
going to make much difference. Hugh Pym said you have got to start | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
summer. But ?100 million out of the budget of NHS England is a. Drop in | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
the ocean. -- you have got to start somewhere. We have an increased | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
year-on-year and the cost of drugs. We want to be able to afford new | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
drugs, sometimes we have to take a steely look at what we are spending | :12:46. | :12:48. | |
existing money and to make sure it is the best value for patients and | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
that we can use that to afford other things. And that is the point, isn't | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
it? It's an important point, but we are potentially looking at two | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
different things. The cost of the medication of the product, and the | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
cost of the GP's time, which is important and expensive. I would | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
like to see a national roll-out of minor ailments scheme is delivered | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
through community pharmacies where people on low incomes with minor | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
ailments requiring a relatively inexpensive treatments, like cough | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
medicines, for example, could be provided very inexpensively. I think | :13:22. | :13:24. | |
that's something that should be included in this review. Is it the | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
sort of further rationing? While the debate is going on, people will see | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
this as a political move. There were going to be announcements around | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
spending on NHS England in terms of drugs, then do you think it is the | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
beginning of more restrictions? We have always had a certain degree of | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
rationing within the NHS. The trouble is, it's happening in a | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
piecemeal way where some CCG 's have restrictions on this and not others. | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
We need restrictions that are fair to everybody across the country. | :13:54. | :13:56. | |
Evidence -based, that allows for special circumstances where you have | :13:57. | :14:02. | |
to make exemptions for certain people. Let's look at this in the | :14:03. | :14:05. | |
case of it being a relatively small amount of money, but the NHS has to | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
do do that across the piece if it's going to deliver the services people | :14:11. | :14:13. | |
want and expect. Thank you both very much. | :14:14. | :14:15. | |
The question for today is which political leader plans | :14:16. | :14:18. | |
to introduce legislation that would legalise | :14:19. | :14:20. | |
At the end of the show Tom will hopefully give | :14:21. | :14:31. | |
We're now just 24 hours away from the moment when Theresa May | :14:32. | :14:38. | |
formally notifies the EU of the UK's intention to leave the union. | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
We don't know yet what our future trading relationship | :14:44. | :14:45. | |
We'll have to wait a while for the deal that | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
But the Government is also pinning its hopes on better trade | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
relations with the rest of the world. | :14:55. | :14:56. | |
This morning, the Prime Minister and the International | :14:57. | :14:58. | |
Trade Secretary, Liam Fox, are in Birmingham, | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
Dr Fox opened the event with his grand vision. | :15:02. | :15:08. | |
When Prime Minister Theresa May came to Parliament in July last year, | :15:09. | :15:10. | |
she did so with a commitment to build a truly global Britain - | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
a nation firmly at the heart of global trade. | :15:15. | :15:21. | |
The vote to leave the European Union has given this country | :15:22. | :15:23. | |
For the first time in over 40 years, we will have an independent | :15:24. | :15:30. | |
trade policy giving us the self-determination | :15:31. | :15:32. | |
to forge closer trading links with old friends, | :15:33. | :15:34. | |
It is our task to build these links safeguarding Britain's prosperity, | :15:35. | :15:41. | |
as we open a new chapter in our history. | :15:42. | :15:48. | |
This morning, Open Europe, which is campaigning for Britain | :15:49. | :15:51. | |
to be closer to Europe after Brexit, laid out the ten promises | :15:52. | :15:54. | |
they believe that the Government and Vote Leave have made | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
Welcome to the Daily Politics. The promises you have set out you expect | :15:59. | :16:12. | |
Theresa May to keep, it includes the ?350 million a week to the NHS. Can | :16:13. | :16:20. | |
you blame Theresa May for that claim? She was on the remain aside | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
in the campaign and to some extent most people rubbished that figure. | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
It was open Britain who did the launch this morning and I think we | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
all want to have a close relationship with Europe, the Prime | :16:34. | :16:36. | |
Minister has said we are leaving the EU but we're not leaving Europe. We | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
carefully have picked out the 350 million on the side of a bus, a huge | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
part of the reason people voted leave and we also have the quote | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
from Boris Johnson in December who said that we will be getting back | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
millions from Europe and we will spend them on essential public | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
services including the NHS. That is what people are expecting to see. It | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
was a campaign, not a manifesto and it was not a promise made by Theresa | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
May, you accept that? Absolutely. It is important to recognise what | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
people were voting for, what they were expecting the Government which | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
has many key members of the Vote Leave campaign to deliver, people | :17:23. | :17:24. | |
will want to hold the Government to account. Northern Ireland, no | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
changes to the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic. | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
Did Vote Leave really promise no changes to the border? There is a | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
quote in the document about the fact they wanted the integrity of the | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
union to be preserved and I think there is a quote from Michael Gove | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
saying the union will not be under threat. Also the Northern Ireland | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
Secretary has talked about there being frictionless trade. The issue | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
of the border is incredibly important. It will be our first land | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
border with the European Union and yet people cross it all the time. | :18:01. | :18:03. | |
But they did not say anything about there being a border to stop people, | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
they said there would be no return to border controls. The customs | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
border is not the same thing. How on earth would you deliver customs | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
checks without having something physically in place? That applies | :18:17. | :18:22. | |
more broadly to coming into ports across the country, we do not have | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
at the moment the IT and technology to deal with that. The point is | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
there are a number of policies made in the campaign and by ministers | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
since and I think as we end this phoney war as Article 50 is | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
triggered tomorrow, it is right to say to people, we all want a good | :18:42. | :18:44. | |
deal, this is what ministers set a good deal would look like. Let us | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
look again at the promises. You are calling for a dramatic reduction in | :18:50. | :18:52. | |
immigration, you say that was promised. David Davis has conceded | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
that migration might rise post Brexit. It is about taking back | :18:58. | :19:03. | |
control. These are, to some extent, straw men you are putting up because | :19:04. | :19:06. | |
you know and you hope the Government will fail to meet them. No. I want | :19:07. | :19:13. | |
the best possible deal, as does the Prime Minister and everybody else. | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
We are leaving the EU, we have had the vote, the debate, it starts now. | :19:19. | :19:22. | |
In order to get the best possible deal, immigration was a huge part of | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
the reason people wanted to vote leave, they talked about taking back | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
control, they want immigration to be controlled. You have not said | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
whether it would fall. It was about taking back control but not | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
necessarily whether there would be a permanent reduction. The only broken | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
promise has been made by the Conservative government time and | :19:43. | :19:45. | |
time again on reducing net migration to the tens of thousands. We are | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
nowhere near that target. But as one of the reasons people feel so | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
strongly about the issue. It is a result | :19:55. | :20:07. | |
of policy decisions made by the last Labour government and it is | :20:08. | :20:10. | |
something we have not discussed properly in this country for a long | :20:11. | :20:13. | |
time. The Conservative government has made the promise under the | :20:14. | :20:15. | |
coalition and subsequently. They said net migration would come down | :20:16. | :20:17. | |
to tens of thousands. David Davis was being a realist last night. He | :20:18. | :20:20. | |
will not necessarily be able to keep to this promise you have put up for | :20:21. | :20:23. | |
the Government to stick to. One of the things I said in the opening of | :20:24. | :20:25. | |
the document under press conference was that when these things cannot be | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
the British public deserve an explanation. That is what we are | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
getting towards. I'm picking what David Davis said last night, there | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
will have to be compromises and that is why Parliament needs to be | :20:38. | :20:43. | |
involved -- unpicking. Particularly important when we have no real | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
official opposition to do that job. You admit there is going to be a | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
compromise, there will have to be some conditions that will not be | :20:53. | :20:55. | |
met, despite your ten promises you are trying to make the Government | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
keep to? How many of the promises do you want to see the Government stick | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
to in order for Brexit to be deemed a success? I am not involved in the | :21:06. | :21:08. | |
negotiations. I will not get involved in the numbers. You have | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
made these points. These are things people felt strongly about. I know | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
from campaigning on the streets. One of the others is about having the | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
same trade benefits as currently in the single market. That will not be | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
possible. They will not be exactly the same. That is something for the | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
Secretary of State for exiting the EU. He has given that promise in the | :21:33. | :21:35. | |
House of Commons to one of my colleagues. He said because of the | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
comprehensive trade and customs agreements, he said we would have | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
the same trade benefits. Many businesses in this country say this | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
is really important. I think it is absolutely right those of us who | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
will be asking the questions, wanting the best deal, make it | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
clear... The issue of the deal is so important. Brexit was not a | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
manifesto, it was a straight decision, a campaign to leave or | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
remain. The voters chose leave and the Government will try to deliver | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
what they think the people wanted. In your question, what the people | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
wanted, what they think the people wanted, you are right, the result | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
was to leave, that will be delivered tomorrow. The terms are very | :22:19. | :22:21. | |
important for the future of this country. | :22:22. | :22:22. | |
John Redwood, who campaigned for Brexit, joins us now. | :22:23. | :22:25. | |
He has been listening to Nicky Morgan. Let us go back to the | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
beginning, as we did with Nicky Morgan, Boris Johnson's read Russ, | :22:31. | :22:37. | |
the promise of ?350 million per week for the health service. -- the red | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
bus. When is it happening? I was invited onto your programme to deal | :22:44. | :22:49. | |
with Labour's conditions or tests. This is not quite the interview you | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
told me you were wanting me to produce. I would be happy to discuss | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
Labour's tests. They tend to be the policies of the Government and | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
perfectly sensible. I do not know what you were brought on to discuss | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
but actually we want to discuss what Open Britain has talked about today | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
with Nicky Morgan. I am very happy to talk about why we will be much | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
better off out of the EU. We did that in the referendum campaign and | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
on the money I myself, through the Vote Leave auspices, launched a | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
possible budget that could be delivered once we have taken back | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
control of our money. The net contributions we currently have to | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
pay to Europe and do not get back, primarily on health but also social | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
care and one or two others, that was a document which Vote Leave put out | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
and I hope the Chancellor will look kindly on that. You agree with Nicky | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
Morgan? It was about taking back control. You would like to see the | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
Government meet that obligation? It is not an obligation. The decision | :23:54. | :23:59. | |
was to spend our own money on our own priorities and I look forward to | :24:00. | :24:02. | |
a Conservative government being able to do that once we have completed | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
our exit from the EU. Of course there will be more money to spend on | :24:07. | :24:09. | |
our priorities because we will not be making the big net contribution | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
to the EU. A lot of people were persuaded by what was seen as a | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
pledge by many voters for ?350 million to be spent on the NHS a | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
week. They voted to take back control and for Parliament to decide | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
how to spend our money on our priorities. The actual sum of money | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
was deeply disputed in the campaign because the bus had the gross figure | :24:34. | :24:37. | |
on it, my budget happened to spend the net figure. Immigration, would | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
you agree most leave voters were probably under the impression that | :24:43. | :24:47. | |
if leave won immigration would fall? I think most voters who voted to | :24:48. | :24:53. | |
leave recognised that once we take back control, we can have migration | :24:54. | :24:59. | |
policy which Parliament wants, which government puts through Parliament, | :25:00. | :25:02. | |
which may well reduce the numbers. That is what the Conservatives | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
offered to do in the 2010 and 2015 election. It was a popular promise | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
which helped to elect us and it has proved extremely difficult to do, | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
partly because we are still in the EU and they prevent us controlling | :25:16. | :25:18. | |
about half of the migration coming into the country. I think people | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
will want the Government when we have the powers to be more | :25:24. | :25:26. | |
restrictive. I do not think people thought that overnight migration | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
would stop. A lot of us went to great lengths that we wish to be | :25:31. | :25:36. | |
open to talent. The Government has rightly said they want a Britain | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
open to talent. They want to make some reduction in those coming in | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
speculatively to take jobs at the low end of the pay scale. What do | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
you make of David Davis last night conceding migration might have to | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
rise post Brexit? That is a debate to hold as soon as we have the power | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
to run our borders in the right way. As I say, the essence of the | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
campaign, a lot of people wanted Britain to make that decision, but | :26:07. | :26:09. | |
most voters were quite realistic, they do not think we will move to | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
know migration and it would not be sensible. No migration is different | :26:14. | :26:20. | |
from lower migration. Lower migration is that aim of the present | :26:21. | :26:23. | |
government and it has more chance of succeeding with that once we have | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
taken back control of the borders. It has certainly failed at the | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
moment. The official line from Michael Gove and Boris Johnson was | :26:32. | :26:34. | |
that we would leave the single market but we would enjoy full and | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
free access to the single market. Do you think it is still true? That is | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
quite possible. It would be the rational and sensible thing of our | :26:44. | :26:46. | |
partners on the continent. The. Why would they give us full and free | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
access as we had as members of the single market if we were to leave? | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
They need full and free access to our market. They sell many more | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
products that could attract quite high tariffs if we go over to World | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
Trade Organisation rules. I take the view that our partners are broadly | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
sensible people, decent people, they will see their own interests and | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
come around to the view they should not impose tariffs on our trade. I | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
maybe wrong. If they wish to damage themselves, of we will trade under | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
WTO terms and that will be fine for the UK, it is how we do trade with | :27:26. | :27:28. | |
the rest of the world at the moment. Nicky Morgan? I am speechless about | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
the fact that someone like John Redwood says it is fine to crash out | :27:35. | :27:41. | |
on WTO. Many people have said it is not fine. It leaves businesses in | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
total state of limbo. It would be very... If we want to have a costly | :27:48. | :27:53. | |
Brexit, the most costly, crashing out on WTO, it is irresponsible of | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
people like John Redwood to think it is OK. Is it looking optimistic to | :27:58. | :28:04. | |
further opportunities outside of the EU or irresponsible? This is a | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
negotiation that starts tomorrow, if you compare it to a football pitch, | :28:09. | :28:14. | |
you start at your goal and start in the centre. If you start in the | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
centre, you will lose. Is it possible to have full and free | :28:19. | :28:21. | |
access to the single market when we are outside it? It will change, no | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
question. What we would hope is that there will be a balance because, as | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
John Redwood said, there is a significant trade flow into the UK, | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
the UK is a very attractive market for a lot of EU companies. We buy a | :28:37. | :28:42. | |
lot of very high value products. They want to keep selling them. | :28:43. | :28:49. | |
There has to be some quid pro quo. Before we let you go, let us have a | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
quick look at the front page of the Daily Mail today. It has focused on | :28:54. | :29:01. | |
the legs of Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon. An accompanying article by | :29:02. | :29:07. | |
Sarah Vine. A barrage of criticism about that focus, rather than on the | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
discussions between them on the independence referendum. Responding | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
to Sarah Vine's article, Nicky Morgan tweeted... We contacted Sarah | :29:16. | :29:26. | |
Vine this morning and she told us it was just Twitter chitchat but it is | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
always nice to see that a story has legs. That made you laugh. | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
The whole thing is so unbelievably... I'm lost for words. | :29:38. | :29:43. | |
I can't believe that in the 21st century we are seriously talking | :29:44. | :29:50. | |
about two female politicians' legs. The Mail has got what it wanted. | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
It's deliberately provocative, and I stand by that. I understand they | :29:56. | :30:01. | |
have changed their strapline for the second edition, so I think even they | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
agree that it was a step too far. Do you agree with Nikki Morgan or Sarah | :30:06. | :30:11. | |
Vine? I agree with Nikki. I think it's crass and it takes the focus of | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
what is a very, very critical issue. Thank you. | :30:16. | :30:18. | |
This afternoon, the Scottish Parliament will restart its debate | :30:19. | :30:20. | |
on the SNP's plan to hold a second referendum on independence. | :30:21. | :30:23. | |
MSPs were debating the issue last Wednesday afternoon, | :30:24. | :30:25. | |
but the session was suspended after the terror | :30:26. | :30:26. | |
Our correspondent, Lorna Gordon, joins us from Edinburgh. | :30:27. | :30:33. | |
The First Minister and the SNP will win this motion with the support of | :30:34. | :30:40. | |
the greens. But as yesterday's meeting showed, there is no appetite | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
for this referendum while Brexit negotiations are going on. What does | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
Nicola Sturgeon do next? I think the SNP would dispute that common that | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
there is no appetite while Brexit negotiations go on. That is | :30:55. | :30:57. | |
certainly what the Conservatives in the parliament here argue. That is | :30:58. | :30:59. | |
what Labour and the Liberal Democrats argue. That is the line | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
being taken by Theresa May, the Prime Minister. Early polling would | :31:05. | :31:12. | |
suggest there is less of an appetite for a referendum immediately, but | :31:13. | :31:15. | |
that hasn't really been a great amount of polling since Nicola | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
Sturgeon made her comments are a couple of weeks ago. And certainly | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
polling, whilst Sarah Storey majority in favour of independence, | :31:24. | :31:29. | |
the country is almost pretty evenly split on the issue itself. -- whilst | :31:30. | :31:35. | |
there is certainly a majority in favour of independence. This | :31:36. | :31:38. | |
government motion is calling for a section 30 order and is almost | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
certain to pass. The SNP, along with the Greens, will have a comfortable | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
majority. There is a small protest of pro-independence supporters | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
outside at the moment, showing their support. The timing of it all, well, | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
it'll start at two o'clock. Nicola Sturgeon will give opening comments | :31:58. | :32:00. | |
lasting about 80 minutes in this debate as it gets underway. -- 18 | :32:01. | :32:06. | |
minutes. Closing speeches. To round 4:40. Then there is a procedural | :32:07. | :32:12. | |
point where all the opposition motions are voted on. That will | :32:13. | :32:18. | |
start around five o'clock. The key motion, which will either be amended | :32:19. | :32:21. | |
by the Greens or the Government motion itself, it will, in all | :32:22. | :32:27. | |
likelihood, pass, moving to the critical point which is when the | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
Scottish Government, Nicola Sturgeon, the First Minister, will | :32:32. | :32:34. | |
write to the UK Government formally requesting the transfer of powers to | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
call a section 30, calling referendum under section 30 of the | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
Scotland Act, in effect setting out how they hope to fulfil the mandate | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
of the Scottish parliament here. The SNP would argue all of that pulling | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
aside, that they have a mandate here by being the largest party, by being | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
the Government. And they would argue that they are doing what they | :32:57. | :32:59. | |
believe is right to represent the citizens here in Scotland. Theresa | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
May continues to say she's not going to grant an independence referendum | :33:04. | :33:06. | |
during the Brexit negotiations, would Nicola Sturgeon be tempted to | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
hold an unofficial referendum without the consult of Westminster? | :33:12. | :33:17. | |
It's a tricky one, isn't it? I think the mood's music suggests that that | :33:18. | :33:22. | |
is unlikely. The other option that has been muted is that she might | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
call a snap election. That, too, appears to have been ruled out. It's | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
hard to see where this goes next. You have two very strong leaders | :33:33. | :33:35. | |
here who are cordial, very businesslike in their dealings with | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
each other. But that did appear to be a frosty meeting yesterday. There | :33:40. | :33:45. | |
was no handshake for the camera. They're very strong personalities | :33:46. | :33:47. | |
and they have positions that are very apart. Theresa May says no | :33:48. | :33:54. | |
referendum at this time, and of course at this moment Westminster | :33:55. | :33:57. | |
holds all the cards. They are the ones who legislate on this issue to | :33:58. | :34:03. | |
allow Scotland to hold a referendum if that motion was passed this | :34:04. | :34:04. | |
afternoon. Thank you very much. What is your view, Tom, on whether | :34:05. | :34:14. | |
Theresa -- on whether Nicola Sturgeon should be able to have a | :34:15. | :34:17. | |
second referendum? I think ultimately that is for the people of | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
Scotland. If there is a majority, I would they support it. At the polls | :34:23. | :34:28. | |
suggest that the case at the moment. If they decide that there were they | :34:29. | :34:32. | |
want to go, we have a big operation in Scotland, then we will manage our | :34:33. | :34:35. | |
business accordingly. She will say that she has got a mandate to do it, | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
even if the polls say they don't want to have another referendum now. | :34:41. | :34:43. | |
They might do in a couple of years' time. What do you think of the logic | :34:44. | :34:49. | |
of Theresa May, conducting Brexit negotiations, but stopping Scotland | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
its own independence referendum? I can see there's a logic that says | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
the reason for asking for another referendum now is because the | :34:58. | :35:00. | |
Brexit. Otherwise I think we were told this wouldn't happen for a | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
generation. So Brexit is because there is a strong argument seemed | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
you can't debate what a post-Brexit world is going to look like until | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
you get post Brexit. So there is a strong argument to say let's wait | :35:14. | :35:16. | |
and see what the deal looks like. Do you think people have changed their | :35:17. | :35:19. | |
mind, those who voted for independence last time and those who | :35:20. | :35:25. | |
wanted to remain? Anecdotally, has been issued since Brexit? I don't | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
detected. The country was that pretty much down the middle. I don't | :35:30. | :35:32. | |
think things have changed that much. All right, we will leave it there. | :35:33. | :35:36. | |
The contest to be the next general secretary of Unite, | :35:37. | :35:38. | |
the UK's biggest trade union, gets under way in earnest | :35:39. | :35:41. | |
this week as ballot papers are being sent to members. | :35:42. | :35:43. | |
It's getting a lot more attention than the average union election, | :35:44. | :35:46. | |
because it's widely seen as a proxy battle between the left and right | :35:47. | :35:49. | |
The winner will be announced at the end of April. | :35:50. | :35:52. | |
The incumbent general secretary, Len McCluskey, | :35:53. | :35:54. | |
It's thought that a win for him would be a boost for Jeremy Corbyn. | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
However, Mr McCluskey seemed to qualify his support | :35:59. | :36:00. | |
for Mr Corbyn at the weekend, saying that the Labour leader only | :36:01. | :36:03. | |
had "15 months or so" to break through in opinion polls. | :36:04. | :36:06. | |
The main challenger is thought to be Gerard Coyne. | :36:07. | :36:12. | |
A win for him would be welcomed by centrist Labour MPs. | :36:13. | :36:14. | |
He's accused Len McCluskey of "messing around in Westminster | :36:15. | :36:17. | |
politics" rather than focusing on the concerns of union members. | :36:18. | :36:20. | |
The third man in the race is Ian Allinson. | :36:21. | :36:23. | |
He describes himself as a "grassroots socialist candidate". | :36:24. | :36:25. | |
He says his values are more in tune with Jeremy Corbyn's than either | :36:26. | :36:28. | |
Gerard Coyne appeared on this programme earlier in the year | :36:29. | :36:35. | |
and Len McCluskey has so far declined our invitations, | :36:36. | :36:37. | |
You know how to get hold of us! Welcome to the programme, Ian. The | :36:38. | :36:54. | |
other two candidates in this race, Len McCluskey and Gerard Coyne, are | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
seen as the frontrunners. Do you think you have any chance? | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
Absolutely. Members want to see a shake-up in the union. Most of us | :37:03. | :37:05. | |
have the experience of seeing employers asking us to work longer | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
and harder for less. Of seeing pressure on jobs, pay and | :37:11. | :37:12. | |
conditions, public services and our rights. They want to see a stronger | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
union fighting back against that. And what is wrong with Len | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
McCluskey? You're missing too many opportunities. There's a big gap | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
between the union with got and the union we need. I thought the | :37:26. | :37:30. | |
campaign -- I thought the campaign on workers' rights was not good. | :37:31. | :37:39. | |
Yesterday we had to report ourselves to the police before we could have a | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
picket. It's ridiculous. Do you think Jeremy Corbyn and his | :37:44. | :37:46. | |
leadership team didn't do enough to fight that bill? I don't think the | :37:47. | :37:50. | |
problem was simply a Parliamentary level. I think we needed a | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
grassroots campaign and we focus on parliament, when you have a Tory | :37:55. | :37:57. | |
majority, was never going to deliver the win we focus on Parliament, when | :37:58. | :38:00. | |
you have a Tory majority, was never going to deliver the wind needed. | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
This contest has been seen as a proxy war between the | :38:06. | :38:08. | |
representatives of the Labour Party. Where do you stand on that issue? I | :38:09. | :38:11. | |
think Gerard Coyne has been linking up with people like Tom Watson to | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
attack. Making out, for example, that Len McCluskey could affiliate | :38:16. | :38:24. | |
Unite to Momentum. Is a ridiculous? It's not a decision for a general | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
secretary. Tom Watson has said it a secret plan. He said that because of | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
a key figure in Momentum he said Unite would affiliate to Momentum, | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
rather than the Labour Party. Is to anyone more than it is up to us | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
frontrunners. It would be up to be Unite conference or executive. What | :38:45. | :38:47. | |
Tom Watson is trying to do is boost Gerard Coyne's chances. While he | :38:48. | :38:52. | |
says he wants to spend less time in Westminster politics, he is the one | :38:53. | :38:55. | |
spending all his time plotting with the right wing of the Labour Party | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
and ignoring the issues that are of concern to members who want to focus | :39:00. | :39:05. | |
on the issues of concern to them. Do you think there is a plot on the | :39:06. | :39:08. | |
other side by Tom Watson and Gerard Coyne to try and discredit Unite, as | :39:09. | :39:14. | |
it stands, and its links to Momentum? I think this has been | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
plot, after plot, after plot to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn. If we had any | :39:20. | :39:23. | |
leader breaking from the consensus we have had around cuts and | :39:24. | :39:26. | |
austerity, there would be facing massive opposition from the bulk of | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
the media, which is hostile to the kinds of policies Unite stands for. | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
And also the backbenches of the Labour Party, full of people who | :39:36. | :39:38. | |
couldn't even bring themselves to vote against the Tory welfare bill. | :39:39. | :39:41. | |
Of course he is facing opposition and plots. They will be backed by | :39:42. | :39:46. | |
the dreadful polls for Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party at the moment. | :39:47. | :39:50. | |
And even the most recent one yesterday shows the British public | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
give a higher poll approval rating at 80% family duty Jeremy Corbyn. I | :39:55. | :40:00. | |
don't think it's about individuals. Whoever was Labour leader would be | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
facing those kind of pressures. That's why I've been arguing that | :40:05. | :40:07. | |
the kind of support that Unite has been given just isn't good enough. | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
Len McCluskey has undermined Jeremy Corbyn on key policy issues such as | :40:13. | :40:15. | |
Trident and free movement of labour. I don't think that's been helpful | :40:16. | :40:20. | |
and I don't think his comments about being given a 15 month a helpful. He | :40:21. | :40:23. | |
should be signing up for the policies that unite champions and | :40:24. | :40:30. | |
Unite members need, whoever we members need. You don't think you | :40:31. | :40:33. | |
should be given any timescale in terms of making a breakthrough in | :40:34. | :40:36. | |
the opinion polls? I don't think we're going to back the shift the | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
opinion polls by backing this or that leader. New Labour have lost | :40:41. | :40:48. | |
the last two elections. Not only has Labour's polling not improved, it's | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
also annihilated himself. The idea of turning the clock back to that | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
new Labour approach is just pie in the sky. You are backed by Socialist | :40:58. | :41:03. | |
workers. Would you like to ally Unite closer to them and the Labour | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
Party? No. You wouldn't? No. Even though they are supporting you and | :41:09. | :41:14. | |
would want you to stand? My position is that Unite should be supporting | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
Jeremy Corbyn and the left of the Labour Party in trying to pursue the | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
policies Unite stands for, because that is what this is about. It is | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
about Unite's issues and. This conference has got a lot more media | :41:28. | :41:33. | |
coverage because of being by some people as a proxy war the two sides | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
of the Labour Party. Ian Allinson said that neither party are | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
supporting in the way that -- neither candidate is supporting in | :41:43. | :41:45. | |
the way that they should be stopped by far be it for me to give advice | :41:46. | :41:48. | |
to be members of Unite because they will have their own view. It is the | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
biggest trade union, of course. And it is our biggest union. Our biggest | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
interest is that Unite is led by people interested in the membership | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
of Unite, because they will stand up for the rights of people in Unite. | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
That is what we think is the most important thing. But it's not our | :42:08. | :42:11. | |
decision in any way, shape or form. Was about Ian Allison's claim that | :42:12. | :42:16. | |
as the new general secretary of Unite the should be full backing | :42:17. | :42:18. | |
behind Jeremy Corbyn as the Labour leader? I think this is less about | :42:19. | :42:24. | |
politics and more about the rights of workers and members of Unite. | :42:25. | :42:32. | |
That should be the paramount issue. You have said that your policies are | :42:33. | :42:35. | |
more in line with Jeremy Corbyn on issues like Trident and free | :42:36. | :42:37. | |
movement. What did you mean, exactly? I think it was one that Len | :42:38. | :42:47. | |
McCluskey argued in favour of spending the 205 billion estimated | :42:48. | :42:50. | |
cost on Trident. It's hard to imagine how you can spend that money | :42:51. | :42:53. | |
and not make more jobs will stop that was the basis of the argument. | :42:54. | :42:59. | |
What about free movement? We could diversify into other activities, for | :43:00. | :43:05. | |
example, renewable energies. On free movement, I think it's quite a | :43:06. | :43:09. | |
simple argument. It is a worthless' right argument. If we have a | :43:10. | :43:12. | |
situation where people are told where they could level work, it's | :43:13. | :43:18. | |
the people who are forced to work illegally. We have more than issues | :43:19. | :43:26. | |
like -- help -- we have more issues like the Morecambe Bay pickers. You | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
have more workers, irrespective of where they have come from, and the | :43:31. | :43:33. | |
idea that we protect wages by excluding people from the labour | :43:34. | :43:38. | |
market is as misguided as them from people try to exclude women from the | :43:39. | :43:41. | |
labour market. So you didn't agree with Jeremy Corbyn's change of mind | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
in calling for reform. I think there should be freedom of reform, | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
absolutely. Thank you very much for coming in. | :43:51. | :43:52. | |
Now, our guest of the day, Tom Crotty, is a director of Ineos | :43:53. | :43:55. | |
which, amongst other things, is a major player in the emerging | :43:56. | :43:58. | |
But fracking for shale gas is, of course, controversial. | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
According to its proponents, it will create jobs, | :44:03. | :44:04. | |
boost economic growth and bring down energy bills. | :44:05. | :44:06. | |
But according to critics, it will damage the local environment, | :44:07. | :44:08. | |
lead to more carbon emissions and distract us from focusing | :44:09. | :44:10. | |
The Government has been enthusiastic about fracking for years, but | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
despite that, the industry hasn't really taken off just yet. | :44:15. | :44:16. | |
Let's take a look at George Osborne making the case for fracking | :44:17. | :44:19. | |
We will have the proper environmental standards around | :44:20. | :44:25. | |
But I think for this country to turn its back on one | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
of its great natural resources, which other countries are using, | :44:31. | :44:33. | |
would be to basically condemn our country to higher energy | :44:34. | :44:35. | |
Frankly, I don't want to be part of a generation that says | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
all the economic activity was happening somewhere else | :44:41. | :44:41. | |
in the world, and wasn't happening in our country, | :44:42. | :44:44. | |
and wasn't happening on our continent. | :44:45. | :44:45. | |
So we should get off with the safe and environmentally | :44:46. | :44:47. | |
protected exploration of our shale gas resources. | :44:48. | :45:01. | |
The Green MEP, Molly Scott Cato, is here. | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
Just before I come to you, so much noise about fracking over the last | :45:07. | :45:14. | |
few years, George Osborne and David Cameron were very keen supporters of | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
it. Why has it not taken off? We are taking a cautious approach, we have | :45:19. | :45:24. | |
been doing seismic testing, we are starting to do test drilling this | :45:25. | :45:27. | |
year. We have two more years of scientific work before we are in a | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
position to start doing it commercially because we are taking | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
an extremely cautious approach. It has to be done safely and well. Or | :45:36. | :45:40. | |
you have been blocked. Most people thought it would have started, | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
rightly or wrongly. The licenses from the Government were only issued | :45:46. | :45:52. | |
late last year. We have not had very long. Is that a relief? It is. The | :45:53. | :46:00. | |
fracking industry is in all sorts of trouble. There are concerns about | :46:01. | :46:05. | |
local environmental impacts. Until we are absolutely sure it is safe, | :46:06. | :46:08. | |
we should not go ahead. At a global level, we know the fracking industry | :46:09. | :46:14. | |
is part of the fossil fuel industry and we know 78% of shale gas has to | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
stay in the ground if we are going to have any chance of meeting the | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
climate change limit. It does not have any chance in our future and it | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
is turning out to be more expensive than renewables. Do you accept it | :46:29. | :46:31. | |
does not in the long term have any place in our future because we | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
should be focusing on renewables are Mark no, I do not. I think we should | :46:36. | :46:40. | |
focus on renewables and we are producing the building blocks for | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
the renewable industry. We make turbine lubricants, raw materials | :46:45. | :47:02. | |
for solar panels. But we have to have more gas as a bridge technology | :47:03. | :47:02. | |
in this country, it is a long bridge, 30, 40, 50 years. In the UK, | :47:03. | :47:05. | |
the gas will replace imported gas. It has higher CO2, the imported gas. | :47:06. | :47:16. | |
We would also be able to eliminate coal. To argue that we do not need | :47:17. | :47:23. | |
the gas on CO2 grounds is wrong. I do not buy that argument. The gas | :47:24. | :47:27. | |
coming in is displacing other gas. The point is the fracking industry | :47:28. | :47:32. | |
greatly underestimate the amount of leakages that are and it is of | :47:33. | :47:35. | |
methane which is much more serious in terms of the climate effect than | :47:36. | :47:42. | |
natural gas. We need to reduce our demand for energy altogether | :47:43. | :47:45. | |
particularly by improving the quality of our housing. If | :47:46. | :47:48. | |
environmental protections could be guaranteed, you said, you implied, | :47:49. | :47:53. | |
fracking would be all right, if there could be guarantees and | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
reassurances that any damage or impact would be limited and safe, | :47:58. | :48:03. | |
then... I am not convinced. The more important argument is around climate | :48:04. | :48:07. | |
change and the need to move beyond fossil fuels. Because renewables are | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
free, they are becoming cheaper all the time, the fuel is free. In three | :48:12. | :48:15. | |
years' time, renewables will be cheaper than fossil fuels and by | :48:16. | :48:21. | |
2025, considerably cheaper. I do not think consumers should be made to | :48:22. | :48:25. | |
pay and I do not think we should be subsidising fossil fuels to the tune | :48:26. | :48:28. | |
of ?6 billion the year. The reality is we are massively subsidising | :48:29. | :48:34. | |
renewables right now. That is the reality. At the moment, the issue | :48:35. | :48:40. | |
for me is renewables are not able to do the job. We are getting less than | :48:41. | :48:45. | |
15% of our power from renewables today and zero of our heat. 85% of | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
homes in this country are heated by gas. You saying renewables are not | :48:51. | :48:57. | |
subsidised? No, but they are new, they should be subsidised. Fossil | :48:58. | :49:07. | |
fuels are subsidised because that of vested interests. It is still a low | :49:08. | :49:12. | |
percentage of our actual... It is half the level of subsidy than | :49:13. | :49:15. | |
fossil fuels. Most people would be shocked. I am shocked about that. | :49:16. | :49:24. | |
The point about intermittency is an old point. We need demand of our | :49:25. | :49:28. | |
energy supply and that is the direction in which renewables are | :49:29. | :49:34. | |
able to provide what we need. Does fracking answer the question of | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
weaning people off high energy consumption? That is the way forward | :49:38. | :49:48. | |
and renewables fit that picture much Ativan fracking. People use energy | :49:49. | :49:51. | |
regardless of its source in the same way. Demand management is the most | :49:52. | :49:54. | |
effective way to reduce carbon emissions in the long one. It has to | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
come first. It is by no means the only solution. If we are going to | :49:59. | :50:06. | |
decarbonise because of agreements under the Paris agreement, fracking | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
is still another few years down the line, you claim it would be a very | :50:12. | :50:17. | |
long bridge, 30, 40 years, if we subsidise renewables even more at | :50:18. | :50:20. | |
this stage, could we not move to it much quicker? The answer is, no. We | :50:21. | :50:26. | |
do not have the capacity. We do not have the technology either. At the | :50:27. | :50:31. | |
moment, we cannot store electricity in a meaningful way. We have not got | :50:32. | :50:36. | |
the technology. When we get to the point where every window in our | :50:37. | :50:41. | |
house is a solar panel, every wall is a battery. We are still tens of | :50:42. | :50:47. | |
years away. Do you not accept that is the best way to make the | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
transition? Fracking. If we do not have the technology to store energy, | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
for the time being, fracking actually provides the bridge? -- I | :50:57. | :51:08. | |
do not accept it. Can we store huge amounts of energy? Storage is | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
improving rapidly. How much do we store? I have not got the figures. | :51:13. | :51:17. | |
If we subsidise fracking and continue to have planning in favour | :51:18. | :51:21. | |
of fracking and against wind power, if we subsidise an energy that is | :51:22. | :51:26. | |
very unpopular, we are diverging away from the investment of | :51:27. | :51:29. | |
renewables we need. You say planning is in favour of fracking but we have | :51:30. | :51:33. | |
not seen fracking taking place, it cannot be that much in favour! The | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
Government has tilted the playing field in favour of fracking. It is | :51:38. | :51:47. | |
undermining wind power. Molly Scott Cato has the public on her side. 19% | :51:48. | :51:55. | |
of people in favour of fracking, very low. It is low but it has | :51:56. | :52:01. | |
changed in the polling that has been done for six, seven years, moving | :52:02. | :52:06. | |
back in favour of fracking. By how much? By a very small amount. There | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
is a huge amount of misinformation about the impact of fracking. One of | :52:12. | :52:16. | |
the challenges we have is going into local communities, holding public | :52:17. | :52:19. | |
meetings, saying, come along and find out the facts. We are finding | :52:20. | :52:24. | |
we have people... We had a cancellation of a public meeting two | :52:25. | :52:27. | |
weeks ago by a local community because they were being bombarded | :52:28. | :52:30. | |
with abusive phone calls are threatening them that if they | :52:31. | :52:33. | |
carried on the meeting and invited us along, there would be problems. | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
That is not democracy, it is anarchy. It is a very divisive | :52:38. | :52:42. | |
subject and that is because local communities do not want this dirty | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
industry in their backyard. In Rotherham, there is a very strong | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
protest against what Ineos is doing and this sort of industry divides | :52:52. | :52:55. | |
communities compared to reunion was which can be owned by communities | :52:56. | :52:58. | |
and bring social and environmental benefits as well as economic | :52:59. | :53:03. | |
benefits -- compared to renewables. The benefits are massive for the | :53:04. | :53:08. | |
local communities. Still divided at the end. Thank you for coming in. 30 | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
years old... That is not me unfortunately! | :53:14. | :53:16. | |
Now, at 30 years old, it's frankly a bit past it. | :53:17. | :53:19. | |
I'm talking, of course, about the old pound coin. | :53:20. | :53:21. | |
Experts estimate one in 30 pound coins is fake. | :53:22. | :53:23. | |
The Government announced three years ago it would introduce | :53:24. | :53:25. | |
a new younger model, with a greater focus on making it | :53:26. | :53:28. | |
Our Ellie has been looking at how your change is changing. | :53:29. | :53:32. | |
I can tell the House that we will move to a new highly secure ?1 coin. | :53:33. | :53:35. | |
Our new pound coin will blend the security | :53:36. | :53:43. | |
features of the future with inspiration from our past. | :53:44. | :53:45. | |
It was perhaps one of George Osborne's most | :53:46. | :53:47. | |
He even got a schoolboy to design it. | :53:48. | :53:52. | |
Two-toned, 12-sided, it's thinner, lighter and larger | :53:53. | :54:00. | |
And they're going to put about 1.5 billion into | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
The Royal Mint is currently making 3 million coins every day. | :54:05. | :54:11. | |
And the switchover from the old coins to the | :54:12. | :54:14. | |
This is the most secure coin in the world. | :54:15. | :54:26. | |
It's got what we call over security features, the ones that you | :54:27. | :54:29. | |
It's got a feature where if you look in one direction, you see | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
If you look in another direction, you see another. | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
And even the shape makes it more difficult to copy. | :54:38. | :54:40. | |
Yeah, there's a secret feature that can only be recognised | :54:41. | :54:44. | |
by certain vending machines, which is for verification. | :54:45. | :54:46. | |
When these coins go back to the sorting banks, | :54:47. | :54:49. | |
they can recognise what the fakes and forgeries are. | :54:50. | :54:55. | |
And we expect none because this security feature is | :54:56. | :54:57. | |
But it's caused some problems for parking | :54:58. | :55:03. | |
meters, shopping trolleys and vending machines, which are all | :55:04. | :55:06. | |
People in the market this morning were not all keen on | :55:07. | :55:17. | |
I like the Crown, the silver in the middle. | :55:18. | :55:20. | |
The coin is a coin, a pound is a pound. | :55:21. | :55:31. | |
The first time I've seen one for real. | :55:32. | :55:37. | |
They reckon a third of the ?1.3 billion worth of coins we have | :55:38. | :55:49. | |
stashed away in various places in the UK are the old pound coins. | :55:50. | :55:55. | |
You've got until October 15th to find them and spend them. | :55:56. | :56:00. | |
And I'm joined now from Portcullis House | :56:01. | :56:03. | |
by the Conservative MP, Sir David Amess, | :56:04. | :56:04. | |
who raised concerns about the new pound in Parliament last month. | :56:05. | :56:10. | |
What are you worried about? I am very worried the general public have | :56:11. | :56:17. | |
not been given enough information that the coin will not be legal | :56:18. | :56:21. | |
tender from October and I am worried local authorities are not prepared | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
with car parking charges, supermarkets do not seem to have had | :56:27. | :56:32. | |
the trolleys adapted, confectionery machines... It does not feel as if | :56:33. | :56:36. | |
enough preparation has been done. I understand the need for change but I | :56:37. | :56:39. | |
do not think the preparation has been done. How much longer would you | :56:40. | :56:44. | |
like people to have been given? I would have liked some sort of | :56:45. | :56:47. | |
dedicated public awareness programme on TV. There is something called a | :56:48. | :56:53. | |
trial which one of my people has been a jury on and we are now on the | :56:54. | :56:57. | |
28th of April when Philip Hammond goes to the trial to see whether it | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
is properly goal-tender. We have got a month now to try to raise the | :57:03. | :57:09. | |
profile. -- proper legal tender. Local businesses, I understand there | :57:10. | :57:14. | |
is a big cost in changing the machines and I do not think there | :57:15. | :57:17. | |
has been enough time and a brick awareness about this very big change | :57:18. | :57:24. | |
-- public awareness. The Government says six months is quite a long | :57:25. | :57:29. | |
time. Have you seen the coins? Do you like them? I quite like them. I | :57:30. | :57:34. | |
do not link I will have as many holes in the lining of my suit | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
jacket as I used to have. I am not an expert in designing a coin. After | :57:40. | :57:44. | |
30 years, I understand we need to change these things. They are seen | :57:45. | :57:49. | |
as easy to fake, the existing ones, the ones going out. Experts have | :57:50. | :57:55. | |
designed it and it'll hopefully will do the job. It is the practicality, | :57:56. | :58:00. | |
people struggling to make the vending machines work. It really | :58:01. | :58:04. | |
does not feel as if enough work has been done. I will give you my little | :58:05. | :58:11. | |
collection here of five new ?1 coins. How do they feel? I think | :58:12. | :58:15. | |
they feel OK, they are quite attractive. Hold it up! Not that we | :58:16. | :58:23. | |
will be able to see it! You cannot see the 12 sides. It is not a Dodig | :58:24. | :58:28. | |
he. Because it has two sides, front and back, it is a kept Rebecca | :58:29. | :58:41. | |
There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz. | :58:42. | :58:49. | |
The question was, which political leader plans to introduce | :58:50. | :58:51. | |
legislation that would legalise the recreational use of marijuana? | :58:52. | :58:53. | |
Is it a North Korea's Kim Jong-Un, Donald Trump, | :58:54. | :58:55. | |
Germany's Angela Merkel, or Canada's Justin Trudeau? | :58:56. | :58:57. | |
Macro I would guess Justin Trudeau. That is it for today. You are right. | :58:58. | :59:03. | |
Thank you to Tom Crotty for being my guest of the day. You can give me | :59:04. | :59:05. | |
those coins back now! | :59:06. | :59:09. |