Browse content similar to 27/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics at the start | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
of what promises to be an historic week as Britain begins | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
So what future awaits, both at home and abroad? | :00:44. | :00:49. | |
One of Theresa May's first acts as Prime Minister was to meet | :00:50. | :00:51. | |
Scotland's First Minister to try and agree a common | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
They meet again later today but, as the relationship faces strain, | :00:55. | :00:59. | |
Should Britain come out of the European customs union? | :01:00. | :01:05. | |
Theresa May says she wants to be able to strike trade deals | :01:06. | :01:08. | |
but could be open to some sort of associate membership. | :01:09. | :01:11. | |
Does Brexit mean time is up for the so-called | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
Journalist David Goodhart offers some advice for his fellow liberals. | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
And, political history is often made after an exchange of letters. | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
As Britain prepares to write to the EU we take a look at some | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
All that in the next hour and with us for the whole | :01:27. | :01:38. | |
of the programme today, the Conservative MP, Mark Field, | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
First, the Prime Minister is in Scotland and will hold talks | :01:43. | :01:54. | |
with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon this afternoon ahead | :01:55. | :01:56. | |
of the triggering of Article 50 later this week. | :01:57. | :01:59. | |
It's the first time the two have met since Ms Sturgeon | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
announced plans for a second referendum on independence. | :02:03. | :02:04. | |
The Prime Minister will use a speech in the next hour to say she wants | :02:05. | :02:11. | |
to strengthen the UK rather than allow ties to become | :02:12. | :02:13. | |
Our Scotland correspondent James Shaw is in Glasgow. | :02:14. | :02:16. | |
What's the reception going to be like this time? And in fact, | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
relations between the two women? It's going to be a very interesting | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
meeting, I think, isn't it this afternoon? Perhaps one metric we | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
would like at is how long will the meeting take? Because we know that | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
they have totally different agendas. On the one hand we're going to hear | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
Theresa May talking about strengthening the United Kingdom, | :02:38. | :02:40. | |
bringing the Four Nations together to become a force in the wider world | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
and Ond, we know that Nicola Sturgeon wants to talk about a | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
second independence referendum. There will be a debate in the | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
Scottish Parliament tomorrow on exactly that subject and Theresa May | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
has said that is not on the table at the moment. She won't talk about a | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
second independence referendum. So how long will the talks actually go | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
on for? Yes, it could be a very short meeting and a frosty one | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
between the two of them if neither is prepared to give any ground. Do | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
we know on the logistics front is there going to be a handshake | :03:13. | :03:15. | |
outside? Are they going to have joint press conferences? We don't | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
know those details as yet. I think this has been set-up somewhat at | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
last minute. So in fact the arrangements still seem to be | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
underway. Earlier on this way this morning. Perhaps one thing they | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
might be able to talk about constructively is the repatriation | :03:33. | :03:34. | |
of powers from Brussels when Brexit happens. We know that Nicola | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
Sturgeon would like to see powers over agriculture and fisheries | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
coming back to Scotland and Theresa May might be willing to talk about | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
that. Not that she will make any specific commitments just now, but | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
it's something that is likely at least they will be able to discuss | :03:51. | :03:51. | |
that. James, Shaw, thank you. Joining me now is the SNP's Europe | :03:52. | :03:54. | |
spokesman, Stephen Gethins. Welcome back to the Daily Politics. | :03:55. | :04:04. | |
Thank you. Picking up on James Shaw's point about the repatriation | :04:05. | :04:07. | |
of powers on fishing and farming. Were that to happen, would that | :04:08. | :04:10. | |
satisfy you and your colleagues in the SNP and would there be no need | :04:11. | :04:13. | |
for a second independence referendum? Well, the powers that | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
the Scottish Government were looking for were set out before Chris time | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
when the First Minister set out a compromise dealment we are 48 hours | :04:24. | :04:26. | |
before the triggering of Article 50. It is good that the Prime Minister | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
is travelling to Scotland, it always is, of course, but it is pretty last | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
minute given that they have had the compromise deal since before | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
Christmas which set out some of the powers the Scottish Government were | :04:40. | :04:41. | |
looking for to make the compromise work. If she offers the powers would | :04:42. | :04:48. | |
you call off a second independence referendum? Amber Rudd and the Home | :04:49. | :04:55. | |
Secretary said we wouldn't be getting some powers. It will be | :04:56. | :04:57. | |
interesting to see if there has been a U-turn. The powers would have to | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
be substantial. The answer is yes, if they are substantial? The | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
compromise deal the Scottish Government have set out and they | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
said they will put the independence referendum to one side if the | :05:12. | :05:14. | |
compromise was met. The ball is firmly in the UK Government's court | :05:15. | :05:17. | |
especially since that document was more detailed than anything the UK | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
Government published so far. . That document will have been read by the | :05:22. | :05:24. | |
Prime Minister and her Government ministers, I'm sure it has, and they | :05:25. | :05:27. | |
have had time to look at it. Yes. And if there is a compromise, as you | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
say, if you don't get everything that you ask for, but you get some | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
of what you asked for, on important areas like fishing and farming, | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
would that be enough to say there won't be a second independence | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
referendum? Well, the First Minister has been very clear, if there is a | :05:44. | :05:46. | |
compromise they could put the referendum for a period of time to | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
one side and we can try and make that compromise work. However, we | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
are in a stage where just 48 hours beforehand, they have had the | :05:55. | :05:57. | |
document for three mounts months. You have made that point? I'm not | :05:58. | :06:06. | |
optimistic. But I hope I will be proved wrong. She has called your | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
bluff. She said no to a second independence referendum now? She has | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
clearly called the bluff of her Conservative colleagues as well. | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
Ruth Davidson said she should not stand in the way of a second | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
referendum. It also said that it would do something about a second | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
independence referendum if there was an overwhelming support for it. Can | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
you give me an example of a poll that shows a majority of the | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
Scottish people agree with you that there should be another referendum | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
before March 2019? There is only one way to find out what the will of the | :06:43. | :06:45. | |
people is. The Scottish Government was elected on more votes than any | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
Government has been elected in a constituency... That's not my | :06:50. | :06:56. | |
question. I want a poll on the basis of basis of what you promised as a | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
party. It was the SNP who said it was a once-in-a-lifetime poll. A few | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
of them, you know, look at the Herald, 56% oppose a pre-Brexit | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
referendum. If you look at the Scottish Daily Mail, 46% oppose a | :07:13. | :07:15. | |
pre-Brexit referendum. There isn't within, is there? There isn't a poll | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
that backs up your claim? You're looking at opinion polls there. The | :07:20. | :07:22. | |
Scottish Government was lcted on a manifesto commitment. Now, here at | :07:23. | :07:25. | |
Westminster, we've got a Government that is having great difficulty | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
keeping to any of its manifesto commitments at the moment, be it the | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
single market, be it over national insurance, you know, manifesto | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
commitments are there to be tan serious will you and that's what the | :07:40. | :07:42. | |
First Minister is doing and it is interesting that the Scottish | :07:43. | :07:44. | |
Government was elected on an increased share of the vote, 47%, | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
compared to 36% for the Tories and getting us into the mess that we're | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
in at the moment. What's the point of Theresa May going to visit Nicola | :07:54. | :07:56. | |
Sturgeon if she hasn't got anything to say? If the implication from | :07:57. | :07:59. | |
Number Ten it will be a short meeting. She rejected this idea of a | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
second independence referendum. It isn't exactly a charm offensive, is | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
it? On the contrary. I think Theresa May made it plain the precious union | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
is close to her heart. She doesn't like the idea of playing games with | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
politics and I don't think she would have been there had it not been for | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
Nicola Sturgeon bouncing the British Government only two weeks ago into | :08:22. | :08:24. | |
this idea there should be another referendum. It was in the manifesto. | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
Well, I think, it is interesting. One thing to watch for Theresa May | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
she is, there are a lot of politicians who try and per port | :08:34. | :08:41. | |
them to be manikelean. By going today, she is going to say, "Right, | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
come on, you tell us what you'd like to see in this Brexit." She had the | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
document for months! It is not about having the documentment two weeks | :08:52. | :08:54. | |
ago, Nicola Sturgeon bounced us all into the idea. What was the | :08:55. | :08:57. | |
surprise? What was the surprise? There was a great surprise. It was | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
in the manifesto. Did you not read it? It is nothing to do with reading | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
manifestos. We got through a Brexit Bill that had gone through the UK | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
Parliament, both Houses of Parliament, at which point we were | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
about to trigger Brexit, it might have well happened had it not been | :09:18. | :09:19. | |
for Nicola Sturgeon playing politics. What Theresa May is going | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
to do is say, "Right, you tell us what you'd like. Are you just | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
playing politics? Or can we add something substantive into that | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
Brexit letter?" Is Labour's voice clear on this issue or are you just | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
spectators? Labour's voice has been clear. What is it? About protecting | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
our constituents jobs and for me personally that means the customs | :09:43. | :09:45. | |
union and the single market and I have got to be honest, I disagree | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
with Mark about this idea of Theresa May as a clever tactician because | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
she... I was saying she was authentic about where she stands on | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
the union. So where she stands on the United Kingdom might be quite | :09:58. | :10:06. | |
clear, but what she is doing is effectively cow to youing to Ukip | :10:07. | :10:13. | |
which caused the SNP to react in the way they have. We are caught between | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
two nationalisms, neither of which is good for our country. What's | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
Labour's position on a second independence referendum. Jeremy | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
Corbyn said it would be fine for the SNP to hold a second referendum? I'm | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
with Kezia Dugdale on this. And she is the leader of Scottish Labour? | :10:30. | :10:32. | |
Who said that Scottish people don't want one. So Jeremy Corbyn was | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
wrong? Look, in the end, it is up to the Scottish people to decide, but | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
absolutely clearly, Scottish people don't want another referendum. It | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
was divisive. We experienced that division of our country during the | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
EU referendum and stirred up in certain parts, there was a lot of | :10:52. | :10:54. | |
ill feeling in both of those referendums and I don't think we | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
want to go back there at a time when people are worrying about their | :11:00. | :11:01. | |
jobs, when wages haven't gone up, these are the issues that politics | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
should be deciding over, not stirring up division. I agree with | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
Alison. What this realistically means is wait until the next | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
Holyrood electionsment if there is a manifesto commitment after then to | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
go for a further referendum, then fine, the Scottish people will have | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
spoken. That's after 2021. I am know not sure what you have got against | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
manifesto commitments. I'm stonished that you're telling us that the UK | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
Government was so unprepared, given that this was in the manifesto, this | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
was a compromise, this tripped up Theresa May's Article 50 process. | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
That's an astonishing thing. Look, this shouldn't have come as a | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
surprise. Can I just say, Stephen, isn't your whole argument for a | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
pre-Brexit referendum based on a false assumption? Namely that you | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
could leave the UK, and stay in the EU which is not guaranteed in fact, | :11:55. | :12:00. | |
it is very unlikely to happen. Have you spoken to any Spanish | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
politicians recently? A member was on BBC Scotland last week talking | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
about it. That's a false assumption that you can leave the UK and stay | :12:11. | :12:16. | |
in the EU... Look, Jo, on that question, I'd be glad to. Scotland | :12:17. | :12:19. | |
is a country that's been a member of the European Union for 40 years. It | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
has met the rules that you need to meet. It is a country whereby I've | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
EU rights. We are net contributors to the European Union... You will | :12:29. | :12:32. | |
have to join the queue like any new independent country? There is no | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
such thing as a queuement Turkey joined the queue before half of the | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
current members ever did. There is no such thing as a queue. | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
Scotland... Who has told you in the EU that a promise that Scotland | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
would automatically remain a member of the EU? Look, Juncker, Michael | :12:49. | :12:56. | |
Martin, they have said that Scotland's voice needs to be | :12:57. | :12:59. | |
listened to. That's not the same, is it? Scotland's voice needs to be | :13:00. | :13:07. | |
listened to. OK. Thank you. I'm so unused to politicians stopping | :13:08. | :13:10. | |
immediately when I say that. Stephen Gethins, thank you very much. You'll | :13:11. | :13:12. | |
get him back. Of course! Now, it's time for our daily quiz. | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
As if helping to take Britain out of the European Union wasn't enough, | :13:19. | :13:21. | |
Nigel Farage and Aaron Banks, the self-styled "bad boys | :13:22. | :13:24. | |
of Brexit", have set their sights on assisting another major | :13:25. | :13:26. | |
constitutional overhaul. A) Advising Nicola Sturgeon over | :13:27. | :13:28. | |
Scottish indepedence? B) Splitting California | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
into East California C) Helping Catalonia | :13:33. | :13:34. | |
to break away from Spain? Or D) Working with the Dalai Lama | :13:35. | :13:42. | |
to have more autonomy for Tibet? At the end of the show, | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
Mark and Alison will give Don't worry Alison you've got the | :13:46. | :13:48. | |
whole show to think about it! BP Theresa May has insisted that Brexit | :13:49. | :13:55. | |
offers an opportunity for the UK She maintains that leaving the EU | :13:56. | :13:58. | |
isn't just about a new phase of international diplomacy, | :13:59. | :14:04. | |
but it would be a "moment of change" to create "a stronger economy | :14:05. | :14:06. | |
and fairer society". Now, the other parties are also | :14:07. | :14:08. | |
outlining their vision for the Brexit negotiations | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
and what the UK might look Both the Lib Dems and the Greens say | :14:13. | :14:14. | |
they want a referendum on the terms of the deal the Government agrees | :14:15. | :14:23. | |
with the EU and the public Now, this morning, Ukip | :14:24. | :14:26. | |
have outlined their That the Government should have full | :14:27. | :14:29. | |
control over immigration. That the UK should have full | :14:30. | :14:45. | |
control over our waters, And that there should be no | :14:46. | :14:48. | |
bill for the divorce. While, finally, the whole | :14:49. | :15:02. | |
Brexit process should be By coincidence, Labour also have six | :15:03. | :15:04. | |
tests for the Brexit negotiations. The party says the deal should | :15:05. | :15:14. | |
ensure a strong and collaborative Perhaps most significantly, | :15:15. | :15:17. | |
the party wants a deal with the EU to offer the "exact same benefits" | :15:18. | :15:25. | |
the UK has from the single market It demands the "fair | :15:26. | :15:28. | |
management of migration", which would mean the end | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
of free movement. Labour also say the Brexit deal | :15:33. | :15:35. | |
should defend workers' rights and protections | :15:36. | :15:38. | |
as well as protecting It should, Labour say, | :15:39. | :15:40. | |
be a deal that delivers for all regions and nations | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
of the UK. Speaking in London this morning, | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
the Shadow Brexit Secretary, Keir Starmer, said his party | :15:51. | :15:52. | |
would be holding the Government to account on whether any deal | :15:53. | :15:55. | |
with the EU meets Labour's tests. I don't underestimate | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
the difficulty of the task the Prime Minister is about | :16:02. | :16:03. | |
to embark on. On the contrary, I know it is going | :16:04. | :16:06. | |
to be fiendishly difficult. But the stakes are high | :16:07. | :16:09. | |
and the Prime Minister's approach Today, I've set out the values that | :16:10. | :16:15. | |
should drive Britain's response to Brexit and the tests Labour | :16:16. | :16:23. | |
will set for the final Brexit deal. Failure to meet these tests | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
will affect how Labour votes Let me be clear - Labour will not | :16:29. | :16:31. | |
support a deal that fails to reflect core British values and the six | :16:32. | :16:39. | |
tests I've set out. And I'm joined now by | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
the Ukip MEP Gerard Batten and the Liberal Democrat MP Alistair | :16:43. | :16:44. | |
Carmichael. Welcome to both of you. First of | :16:45. | :16:57. | |
all, Mark Field, the Prime Minister will trigger article 50 on Wednesday | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
and she has set out what she has called an ambitious timetable to | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
negotiate both the divorce settlement and a new trade deal with | :17:06. | :17:08. | |
the EU within two years. Do you agree with the Foreign Secretary | :17:09. | :17:11. | |
that it would be perfectly OK if the UK exits without a deal? I think | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
it's far too early to make a judgment on this. We are at the | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
beginning of the process. But she has said very clearly, Theresa May, | :17:20. | :17:25. | |
no deal would be better better than a bad deal. And I think that is | :17:26. | :17:28. | |
right. Both Houses of Parliament have endorsed that, that is the | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
starting point. I think it's fair to say, many of us on all sides of the | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
House, in my heart of hearts, I was a Remain person, for emotional and | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
geopolitical reasons, I wanted to stay in the European Union, I always | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
felt the comic arguments were more balanced. But equally I think we | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
have to look at this in a positive and optimistic light. This is high | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
diplomacy. This is going to be... High-stakes? There are going to be | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
high-stakes as well. Alison McGovern, Labour wants a | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
transitional arrangement, so that there is no cliff edge, as you would | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
call it, if there was no deal. And that would get a bit more time for a | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
final deal. That there will be those who think that is a license for | :18:16. | :18:21. | |
negotiations to drag on because Brexit delayed would-be Brexit | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
denied? I disagree with Mark about what he said about the Prime | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
Minister saying no deal is better than a bad deal. No deal is an | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
incredibly bad deal. WTO terms are not good for our country. I | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
represent people who make things, manufacturing workers. Why wouldn't | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
WTO rules be a good thing, in your mind? As David Davies explained, | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
because of the tariffs, which he explained... Which could be quite | :18:50. | :18:55. | |
low and agreed fairly easily? Could be, but there's a massive risk | :18:56. | :19:01. | |
implied by that. And these are my constituents' jobs. It is all very | :19:02. | :19:08. | |
well to say we must be positive. Sure, but let's not kid ourselves | :19:09. | :19:11. | |
that there is this amazing deal waiting to be had, when all of our | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
European partners are waiting for us to show any compromise or approach | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
of working together with them, which so far the British government hasn't | :19:20. | :19:26. | |
done. We've been too busy in my view kowtowing to, I'm afraid, the Ukip | :19:27. | :19:31. | |
view of the world not enough offering, as Keir Starmer said, | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
cooperation. The reason why a transitional deal is important is | :19:36. | :19:38. | |
because it will keep business going, it will keep people in employment. A | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
deal could take a long time, up to a decade, so we must make sure that we | :19:43. | :19:48. | |
have provided a low-risk environment for business to get on with its job. | :19:49. | :19:51. | |
Today, your party has said that Brexit should be done and dusted | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
completely by the end of 2019. But we are talking about unpicking 40 or | :19:57. | :20:03. | |
so years of treaties and agreements that were covering thousands of | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
different areas - aviation, medical research, university grants... Isn't | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
the reality, the way that Alison McGovern and Mark Field have | :20:14. | :20:16. | |
described it, that we're going to be half in the EU and half out for many | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
more years? What Ukip is saying is that we wouldn't go down the article | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
50 road anyway. If we try to renegotiate every piece of 170,000 | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
bits of legislation, we would be here till kingdom come. Let me | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
explain what we should do. Our tests are, for the Government Ahzeemah | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
they have said they are taking this route, what we would do, if we were | :20:39. | :20:45. | |
into control, would be to repeal the European Communities Act 1972, as a | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
first step, not a last step, and then we would put ourselves in | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
control of the process. So we would in effect still be part of the EU? | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
No. We would say that we are no longer members of the EU under our | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
law. We would take emergency action on trade, immigration... What would | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
that do to the economy in that instance? Well, what you could do in | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
an afternoon, not two years, is to say to the European Union, we want | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
to continue in tariff free trade, and so do you because it is in your | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
interest. You can have three of your four freedoms, goods, services and | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
capital, but not people. Is Mrs Merkel going to say to the German, | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
new fracture is, we have got to put tariffs on imports to the UK? | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
Alistair Carmichael, what is your response? This is just in Lala land. | :21:35. | :21:41. | |
In one afternoon, Ukip are going to live a farmers and fishermen in my | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
constituency paying tariffs of up to about 20% to export into the single | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
market, which is overwhelmingly our biggest single market. Banks and | :21:51. | :21:57. | |
financial services companies in Mark's constituency, they all depend | :21:58. | :22:00. | |
on being part of the single market to keep their headquarters here. The | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
thing is, we are talking about one market, the constituent parts of the | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
EU that remain have got another 26 that they can look to. Do you think | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
it will last longer than two years to get this done and dusted? I think | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
realistically we have to expect that it will. The Government has | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
absolutely no idea... If that is the case, that it will take longer than | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
two years, and if Alison McGovern is right that there could be all sorts | :22:28. | :22:30. | |
of difficulties along the way, wouldn't it be better to cut and run | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
now? You see, I would not start from here anyway. Sure, but if we enter | :22:35. | :22:40. | |
into... What you're talking about is how to make a bad situation and make | :22:41. | :22:47. | |
it worse. Or even make it, the worst possible situation. We've got to try | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
and negotiate the best deal we possibly can, we've got to look at | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
the future interest of our industries and jobs right across the | :22:56. | :22:59. | |
United Kingdom. But just pretending that context problems have some | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
simple solution that you can fix in an afternoon, almost beggars belief. | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
It cannot be as easy as you have said, otherwise they would be | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
looking at it. They don't want to leave anyway, Mrs May does not want | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
to leave. It is all about delay and delay. All of this stuff about | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
tariffs, it's a two-way street. They sell us far more than we sell them. | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
Why would they want to put tariffs on? Let's talk about the tariffs. | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
Let's talk about the deal that can be done. Labour say they want the | :23:32. | :23:39. | |
exact same benefits as we currently have as members of the single market | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
and the customs union - how is that possible, to have the exact same | :23:45. | :23:47. | |
benefits? I think Keir Starmer is setting the right test. If that is a | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
test, then the UK is probably going to fail it? It's the right test | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
because the single market matters to us all. That characterisation, that | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
we make stuff here and we trade it with people who make stuff in other | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
countries, that's not how manufacturing works these days. We | :24:07. | :24:09. | |
have got high value chains with goods made across borders, not | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
within borders. The idea that you could sort out customs arrangements | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
for high-value manufacturing like that in an afternoon, that is an | :24:18. | :24:20. | |
insult to my constituents and their jobs. And I would ask you, next time | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
you come up with nonsense like that, to think about the impact of that on | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
people who work in my constituency, who make goods across borders, not | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
within them, and need a much better attitude from the British | :24:35. | :24:37. | |
government. What happens if we haven't got an arrangement which is | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
agreed with the EU, when goods are going to be exported into the EU and | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
they want to have custom officials at the borders to check the | :24:46. | :24:48. | |
standards, the regulations of those goods, and maybe the French official | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
only rocks up on a Monday and Tuesday, and you arrive on a | :24:54. | :24:56. | |
Wednesday, what will that do to business? First of all, if they have | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
declined our offer of tariff free trade... I'm not talking about | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
tariffs, I'm going on Alison McGovern's point, which is the | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
nontariff barriers, the things like the standardisation that currently | :25:11. | :25:13. | |
exists as part of the EU, how would you deal with that? Part of the | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
offer that we can make is that we continue on exactly the same terms | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
regarding trade. If they refuse that, and we go on WTO, then we | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
would be in the same position as China, Canada, Australia, New | :25:27. | :25:29. | |
Zealand and the other countries that import and export with the European | :25:30. | :25:32. | |
Union. So we will be in a worse position than we are at the moment. | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
The biggest traders with the EU are countries like China... You're | :25:38. | :25:43. | |
trying to say that you will put us in a worse position than the one we | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
are in at the moment as part of the single market is. That's what | :25:48. | :25:50. | |
matters. Let me just come back to this, Mark Field, about the exact | :25:51. | :25:56. | |
same benefits. Because Labour have made this statement today but David | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
Davis made a similar statement, when he said, I want a deal for | :26:01. | :26:03. | |
frictionless trade, Theresa May said those words, and... It is a nearly | :26:04. | :26:09. | |
impossible task, isn't it? No, in some sectors, that will work. When | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
Theresa May spoke about the idea of no deal, it was to get a sense of | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
clarity and certainty, that that is the baseline. Obviously, there are | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
going to be sectors and parts of the colour me where we will be expecting | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
to get considerably more. I think what is interesting, and it is | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
something which perhaps my Brexiteer friends in the Tory party do not | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
want to hear too much of, but it is, taking all of this legislation onto | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
the British statute book, I bet a minuscule ocean of that will have | :26:40. | :26:42. | |
been appealed within ten years. In other words, we're going to be | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
taking on quite a lot of that legislation, not least because a lot | :26:47. | :26:49. | |
of it we were at the forefront of putting into play. And also, and | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
this is why this will be a long-term negotiation... Be on the two years? | :26:54. | :26:59. | |
No, we must be out within the two years because we do not want the | :27:00. | :27:03. | |
next general election to be a proxy second referendum. But we have all | :27:04. | :27:06. | |
just been saying that it will take longer than that? No, we will be | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
out. But there will be a lemons which will take longer. And I have a | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
strong sense that there will be at a killer sectors where it will be in | :27:16. | :27:22. | |
Britain's interest, and in the EU's interests, on biotechnology and | :27:23. | :27:24. | |
pharmaceutical is, that we will be at the table, helping to look at the | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
regulations which can then be incorporated straight into British | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
law. I think that will get around many of the concerns that you have. | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
But we are where we are, let's make it work. Alistair Carmichael, you | :27:38. | :27:42. | |
want another referendum? I want a referendum on the deal when it is | :27:43. | :27:45. | |
done. But that is really just another referendum? It is not, it is | :27:46. | :27:51. | |
on the deal. We have had a referendum which said, we are | :27:52. | :27:54. | |
leaving. It gave us a departure, it did not give us a destination. David | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
Davis, not that long ago, was proposing exactly the same sort of | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
thing. So just tell me, for the Liberal Democrats, if you say it is | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
on the final deal, weaving the public the final say, in your mind, | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
as a party, what is the ideal relationship with the EU | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
post-Brexit, if, as you say, it is only on the final deal, you have | :28:16. | :28:18. | |
accepted that Brexit is going to happen, how will it be any | :28:19. | :28:24. | |
different? What we are prioritising above everything else is mentorship | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
of the single market because that is where our economic interests lie, | :28:30. | :28:32. | |
especially in the globalised economy. We can't turn the clock | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
back to 1950. You have to be honest with people and say, that does mean | :28:37. | :28:39. | |
that there have got to be compromises about the way in which | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
people move across the boundaries. For Gerard Batten to say, you just | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
can't have that, that's how you end up in the territory where you get no | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
deal. You lost your only MP at the end of last week, or over the | :28:53. | :28:55. | |
weekend, and your only elected voice in Parliament, so Ukip MEPs will | :28:56. | :29:02. | |
soon be made redundant, how do you expect to influence Brexit? You say | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
that, the important vote on the final deal will not be in | :29:07. | :29:09. | |
Westminster, it will be the one in Brussels, because they will have the | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
first vote, and they can reject it, in which case, we are all back to | :29:14. | :29:16. | |
the drawing board in another two years' time. And that is a good | :29:17. | :29:19. | |
point at which to stop this discussion. | :29:20. | :29:21. | |
We know that the Government intends to take us out | :29:22. | :29:23. | |
Theresa May said she was open to some sort of associate arrangement. | :29:24. | :29:29. | |
This is what she had to say in January. | :29:30. | :29:46. | |
I want Britain to be able to negotiate its own trade agreements. | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
But I also want the referee trade with Europe and cross-border trade | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
there to be as frictionless as possible. That means I do not want | :29:56. | :29:58. | |
Britain to be part of the common commercial policy and I do not want | :29:59. | :30:01. | |
us to be bound by the common external tariff. These are the | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
elements of the customs union that prevent us from striking our own | :30:07. | :30:09. | |
competence of trade agreements with other countries. But I do want us to | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
have a customs agreement with the EU. Whether that means we must reach | :30:15. | :30:22. | |
a completely new customs agreement, become an associate member of the | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
customs union in some way, or remain a signatory to some elements of it, | :30:27. | :30:28. | |
I hold no preconceived position. We're joined now by Henry Newman | :30:29. | :30:31. | |
of the Open Europe think-tank which has launched a report today | :30:32. | :30:34. | |
calling for the UK to pursue a fully independent trade policy | :30:35. | :30:37. | |
outside the customs union. Welcome to the programme just for | :30:38. | :30:44. | |
you, Theresa May does not go far enough, does she? Her clean break | :30:45. | :30:48. | |
isn't hard enough for you, you don't even want associate membership with | :30:49. | :30:59. | |
the customs union, is that correct? We're convinced having look at the | :31:00. | :31:02. | |
evidence that we need to be clear that we need to get out of the | :31:03. | :31:06. | |
customs union entirely. Right. That's the best way to maximise the | :31:07. | :31:08. | |
opportunities from leaving the European Union. Under your plan, we | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
leave the customs union with the rest in 2019? Yes. There is a | :31:13. | :31:16. | |
possibility of a transition and that's a separate question. We | :31:17. | :31:19. | |
should be out of the customs union enturl. No half-way in, half-way | :31:20. | :31:25. | |
out. No deal. No Turkish-style deal. Is there a logic to that plan? There | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
is a logic to all the plans. But it is too soon to say we should write | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
off having at least the short-term being full members of the customs | :31:35. | :31:37. | |
union and indeed then aspiring to the sort of arrangement that Theresa | :31:38. | :31:40. | |
May made clear in that clip we have just heard. The reason I say that, | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
actually a transition deal will be incredibly difficult to negotiate | :31:46. | :31:48. | |
over the short time period and it may well be that we need to have an | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
off-the-shelf option. The obvious off-the-shelf option doesn't apply | :31:54. | :31:56. | |
to services in the way it does to goods, but it is to have a customs | :31:57. | :31:59. | |
union arrangement and the thing about the customs union above all, | :32:00. | :32:02. | |
you know, it could be very, very difficult along the lines that Jo | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
pointed out earlier on in the programme, if you have a situation | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
where there is a concern about the country of origin, on goods, this | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
could be pretty nightmarish for many of our exporters if we don't get it | :32:15. | :32:17. | |
right which is one of the reasons that Theresa May has left open the | :32:18. | :32:20. | |
option as part of the negotiation. Right, hang on. Hang on. There is | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
one thing on trade deals we need to get. Politicians love trade deals. | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
Bureaucrats love them and civil servants love them. Get on and do | :32:31. | :32:33. | |
trade and one of the things we have seen with the Trump administration | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
in many ways has been the idea of a can do attitude. You can't do the | :32:38. | :32:46. | |
trade deals until we've left the EU? There is never a country that we | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
haven't done a trade deal with. Half in, half out, what's wrong with | :32:52. | :32:57. | |
that? We all it the worst of all worlds. Why? You are unable to take | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
the opportunities that leaving would entail. It is not just about signing | :33:03. | :33:05. | |
trade deals. They are important, but using them can be too bureaucratic | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
for business. If you have leave, you are able to reset your tariffs | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
externally with the WTO, we would be able to lower all our tariffs, not | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
just the tariffs through a trade deal. We are concerned that a second | :33:18. | :33:26. | |
torial trade deal would be legally challengeable. Happens if you come | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
out of the customs union in the way you're describing? Would there have | :33:32. | :33:34. | |
to be any agreement between the EU and the UK? Well, let's say first of | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
all there will be some costs of us leaving. How big are the cost? There | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
was a leaked report over the weekend reported by the Sunday Times which | :33:43. | :33:47. | |
points at costs up to 24%. Those figures were produced as we see it | :33:48. | :33:50. | |
by the Treasury before the referendum last year. But if they | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
are lower at 20%, they are huge costs? It is lookly to be very low. | :33:55. | :34:01. | |
Can I say one thing? We do a great deal of trade with countries which | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
we are not in a Free Trade Agreement with, let alone the customs union. | :34:07. | :34:13. | |
The single biggest trading partner the UK is the US. The problem is who | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
this hits and where? We already know that the parts of the country that | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
voted leave. Leave in the north of England will be hardest hit by | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
Brexit. Why? Because it is those areas that are dependant on | :34:27. | :34:29. | |
manufacturing. Now people will tell you that manufacturing is a | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
relatively small part of our economy, but actually a lot of the | :34:34. | :34:36. | |
service sector in the north as well depends on the manufacturing | :34:37. | :34:41. | |
industry to sell into it. So what I regret very much is this idea that | :34:42. | :34:47. | |
what's good for Britain is good for everybody, everywhere because people | :34:48. | :34:50. | |
aren't thinking through the fact that saying yes, there will be costs | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
to this as though there will be costs, but on the whole, people will | :34:56. | :35:01. | |
gain. That's not true. Some people will bear the burden and others will | :35:02. | :35:04. | |
not. So that's not fair. You agree there will be costs. You haven't | :35:05. | :35:07. | |
agreed what the costs will be, but you don't agree with 24%? Do you | :35:08. | :35:13. | |
accept outside the customs union will mean more paperwork for | :35:14. | :35:16. | |
exporters like British manufacturers. Possibly. So it won't | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
be frictionless. So Theresa May isn't in your mind going to have | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
frictionless trade? Not perfectly frictionless trade. Let's take a | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
step back and look broadly. We have efficient trade with our non-EU | :35:30. | :35:34. | |
partners. We are starting from a very positive base. Sure. We need to | :35:35. | :35:40. | |
make sure our systems are as good as they possibly can be so goods can | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
travel freely. I'm sure everybody in Parliament and ministers will be | :35:46. | :35:48. | |
paying attention to this. You have conceded that there are going to be | :35:49. | :35:51. | |
costs. That it won't be frictionless. You have said there | :35:52. | :35:54. | |
will be opportunities and there shouldn't be a second torial deal | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
for the car industry and people working in various manufacturing | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
outputs in your constituency. Leaving the customs union will | :36:04. | :36:06. | |
challenge companies with complex supply chains is what you say in | :36:07. | :36:09. | |
your report? Yes. You are talking about the car industry being hit | :36:10. | :36:13. | |
which is worth ?72 billion a year and employs 170,000 people. Is it | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
worth it? I think to take a step back again, the decision was taken | :36:19. | :36:21. | |
to leave the EU. If we're going to leave the EU, we need to be clear | :36:22. | :36:24. | |
what that actually means. You think staying in the single market, | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
staying in the customs union is the same as not having left in the first | :36:29. | :36:34. | |
place. I accept there will be costs. Even Nigel Farage said we could be | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
like Norway in the mid-. Referendum. That's outside the customs union. So | :36:40. | :36:45. | |
he said we could be like... Turkey. And these countries, you know, | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
operate within, they have a way of operating with the single market | :36:51. | :36:55. | |
which I'm assuming you would call half in, half out and that's the | :36:56. | :37:01. | |
worst of all possible worlds. People were told trading arrangements would | :37:02. | :37:04. | |
be Bradley the same. Here we are afterwards saying we need to rip it | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
all up and start again. I'm not saying that at all. And go after | :37:10. | :37:18. | |
some notions... So the EU has good customs co-operation with | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
Switzerland and Canada. The new Canada trade deal... But that was | :37:23. | :37:25. | |
with the EU. The EU already has systems in place. There are | :37:26. | :37:33. | |
precedents. I'm optimistic this can be achieved. When we look then at | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
Northern Ireland, do you also accept there would have to be a customs | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
border? There would have to be some degree of border. We think that | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
border could be minimised. There will have to be a border for goods. | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
That's not the same as a border for people. We see don't see any reason | :37:50. | :37:55. | |
why the free movement of people that long predates European or Irish | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
succession. One of the reasons that Ireland joined in 1973 at the height | :38:01. | :38:06. | |
of the troubles was a recognition of the Inter dependence between the two | :38:07. | :38:09. | |
economies. A special deal will have to be done. We're going to have to | :38:10. | :38:11. | |
stop it there. So, it's going to be a big week | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
here in Westminster. Today marks the deadline | :38:16. | :38:17. | |
for a new Northern Ireland power-sharing executive | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
to be formed. The prospect of a second Scottish | :38:22. | :38:24. | |
independence referendum could be back on the cards tomorrow | :38:25. | :38:27. | |
as members of the Scottish Parliament vote on a new | :38:28. | :38:29. | |
independence referendum. The debate was suspended last | :38:30. | :38:32. | |
Wednesday in the wake The Prime Minister will trigger | :38:33. | :38:34. | |
Article 50 on Wednesday by sending a letter to the European Council | :38:35. | :38:43. | |
formally declaring the UK's intention to leave | :38:44. | :38:45. | |
the European Union. The Government is expected | :38:46. | :38:48. | |
publish a White Paper on the Great Repeal Bill | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
on Thursday, laying out a plan to ensure EU law no longer applies | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
in the UK after Brexit. The House of Commons will rise | :38:58. | :39:03. | |
on Thursday for Easter recess, but the House of Lords will continue | :39:04. | :39:06. | |
working until next week. On Friday, the NHS will set | :39:07. | :39:12. | |
out its plans for the next And the Green Party will begin | :39:13. | :39:15. | |
their Spring Conference in Liverpool, which will continue | :39:16. | :39:18. | |
over the weekend. We're joined now by Tom Newton Dunn | :39:19. | :39:20. | |
of The Sun and by the political Welcome both of you. Tom, we have | :39:21. | :39:28. | |
been talking about it, actually, Northern Ireland. If a new power | :39:29. | :39:32. | |
sharing deal is not agreed today, which looks highly likely, what | :39:33. | :39:36. | |
happens next? New elections? No, I don't think so. I think the honest | :39:37. | :39:40. | |
answer is not very much at all which is rather common for Northern | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
Ireland politics. Not a load happens quickly. As I understand it James | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
Brokenshire won't go straight to new elections which is within his right | :39:50. | :39:53. | |
to order. The law actually says there has to be new elections within | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
a reasonable period of time. So I'm told he will use that reasonable | :39:58. | :40:01. | |
period of time to carry on talking to try and create a deal. It appears | :40:02. | :40:06. | |
the Government's tactics in this is to try and deny Sinn Fein the oxygen | :40:07. | :40:12. | |
of drama and mellow drama even that they are trying to create with | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
Brexit and Article 50 this week and it is in Sinn Fein's interests who | :40:17. | :40:20. | |
want a united Ireland to try and create the impression so the | :40:21. | :40:23. | |
Government say, that everything is chaotic and everything is up in the | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
air and they need to start considering dramatic new | :40:29. | :40:30. | |
constitutional arrangements such as a referendum on uniting Ireland. The | :40:31. | :40:33. | |
Government will do everything they can to avoid that. Jane, tomorrow | :40:34. | :40:38. | |
SNPs will vote on a motion allowing the Scottish Government to open | :40:39. | :40:40. | |
negotiations with Westminster on the timing of a fresh independence | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
referendum. It's going to pass, do you think? It is. I mean the SNP | :40:45. | :40:47. | |
together with the Greens have a majority over the other parties, | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
Labour, the Tories and the Lib Dems. Obviously this debate was happening | :40:52. | :40:54. | |
last Wednesday when the terror attack happened. It has been delayed | :40:55. | :41:01. | |
until tomorrow. And it is a fore gone conclusion, I think it will | :41:02. | :41:04. | |
pass and the pressure is on for Wednesday and Theresa May. Not the | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
best timing for the Prime Minister, bearing in mind that's the day she | :41:09. | :41:11. | |
is triggering Article 50? Theresa May loves to be in control and loves | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
having everything her own way. When this happened two weeks ago, when | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
Nicola Sturgeon announced she wanted a second referendum, this completely | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
blew Theresa May off course and it is right on the eve of her | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
triggering Article 50. She is not going to like it, but she has to | :41:28. | :41:34. | |
stand her ground. Time will be taken up, of course, with her writing that | :41:35. | :41:39. | |
letter to the EU council. Will we learn anything new in the letter? | :41:40. | :41:42. | |
Will the EU learn anything new bearing in mind she set out what she | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
wants to achieve in the Lancaster House speech? I'm told there might | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
be a few bits new. Some new language certainly and perhaps a little bit | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
more detail on what the Government would like to see from Brexit, but | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
substantially, no. We have to the greater part the strategy as laid | :42:02. | :42:07. | |
out in Lancaster House on single market, customs union, security | :42:08. | :42:10. | |
co-operation, etcetera. What will be interesting is, I think, actually | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
how the EU respondment far less so the actual letter albeit, its | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
historical importance. From 12.30 onwards on Wednesday, the ball goes | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
from London to Brussels and it's the moment of maximum danger really for | :42:25. | :42:27. | |
Theresa May as you know, you and Jane have been saying, she likes | :42:28. | :42:30. | |
control. On Wednesday, she loses control. Suddenly, it is for someone | :42:31. | :42:35. | |
else to respond to all this and the Government is therefore hostage or a | :42:36. | :42:38. | |
victim potentially of what the rest of the 27 then come up and have to | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
respond to her. The focus Jane will move on to the Great Repeal Bill | :42:44. | :42:48. | |
which in your mind does that give MPs an opportunity to voice any | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
concerns that they might have or try and oppose the progress of Brexit? | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
Yes. I mean they have, MPs who are against Brexit anyway have been, | :42:59. | :43:01. | |
have had plenty of opportunity and they will take it again on Thursday | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
when the White Paper is published. It is unfortunate that the Henry | :43:07. | :43:11. | |
eighth powers, we talked about control, Theresa May still has | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
control in Parliament. She has these Henry VIII powers that she can take | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
back regulations and laws from Brussels and introduce them into | :43:20. | :43:22. | |
British law. That is where she still has control and there will be a huge | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
fuss over whether that's going to be allowed and whether Theresa May will | :43:27. | :43:29. | |
be allowed to do that. Thank you very much. Have a good week. Thank | :43:30. | :43:30. | |
you. Thank you. Now, we're used to stark | :43:31. | :43:36. | |
divisions in politics. Labour and Conservative, | :43:37. | :43:38. | |
left-wing and right-wing, But with electoral upsets | :43:39. | :43:39. | |
in democracies across the world recently exposing fundamental | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
divides in how people view themselves, is it time | :43:44. | :43:45. | |
for a new way of thinking? The writer David Goodhart thinks | :43:46. | :43:47. | |
he's found the answer. The familiar divide in British | :43:48. | :43:49. | |
politics between left and right has been partly eclipsed in the past | :43:50. | :44:07. | |
generation or so by increasingly significant value divides, | :44:08. | :44:12. | |
between the people that I call the people from anywhere | :44:13. | :44:15. | |
and the people from somewhere. The people from anywhere tend to be | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
highly-educated and mobile, They have achieved identities based | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
on educational and career success, that makes them pretty | :44:24. | :44:32. | |
comfortable, well, anywhere. Somewheres tend to be more rooted, | :44:33. | :44:45. | |
less well-educated. They value familiarity and security, | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
and they have what's called more ascribed identities, | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
that means identities based more around groups and places, | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
which often means that their sense of themselves can be more easily | :44:59. | :45:03. | |
discomfited by rapid change. 40 years ago, British | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
common sense was basically Then, over the last generation | :45:08. | :45:10. | |
and more, anywhere common We anywheres care about the world | :45:11. | :45:15. | |
but can be blinded by We've often run things | :45:16. | :45:24. | |
in our own interests and called it Take freedom of | :45:25. | :45:29. | |
movement, for example. If you're a commercial lawyer, | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
you can go and work in Paris or Berlin for a couple of years, | :45:35. | :45:37. | |
you're not competing for your job If you work in a food | :45:38. | :45:40. | |
factory, you are. All of this has alienated a lot | :45:41. | :45:46. | |
of people, and I don't mean bigots and xenophobes, | :45:47. | :45:49. | |
I mean people I call decent populists, people who value national | :45:50. | :45:51. | |
sovereignty and are wary Many of them stopped voting | :45:52. | :45:53. | |
in national elections but took their chance in the Brexit | :45:54. | :46:02. | |
referendum to say, enough, your anyway version of openness | :46:03. | :46:05. | |
is not working for us. Not surprisingly, the Leave victory | :46:06. | :46:08. | |
left many anywheres wondering what kind of country | :46:09. | :46:11. | |
they really lived in. Finding a new settlement | :46:12. | :46:16. | |
between the two tribes, one that reconciles anywheres | :46:17. | :46:18. | |
and somewheres into a common national story, is the task for | :46:19. | :46:20. | |
politics for the next generation. What is your remedy for bringing the | :46:21. | :46:41. | |
two sides together? Well, I think the group I call anywheres, the | :46:42. | :46:44. | |
people who have dominated our politics and indeed policy for the | :46:45. | :46:49. | |
last generation and more, need to take more account of the priorities | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
and intuitions of the people I call somewheres, more than 50% of the | :46:55. | :47:01. | |
population. Anywheres are 20% to 25% of the population. Either way, I | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
have invented these labels but I have not invented the box, they are | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
there in the surveys. But how should they take account of it? Well, the | :47:10. | :47:18. | |
Brexit vote represents one shift, it shifts us back in a certain | :47:19. | :47:21. | |
direction, but we don't want to have the instability. If people feel that | :47:22. | :47:24. | |
their voices are not heard in day-to-day politics, then you get | :47:25. | :47:32. | |
these... People lash out, and you might describe at least some of the | :47:33. | :47:36. | |
people who voted Brexit is doing that, frustrated that they felt | :47:37. | :47:38. | |
their voices were not heard in day-to-day politics. In order to | :47:39. | :47:42. | |
overcome that instability, we need to bring those voices into... Turn | :47:43. | :47:49. | |
rolls into responsible politicians. But are you saying the passage of | :47:50. | :47:53. | |
progress should in some way be slowed down, if you look at some of | :47:54. | :47:59. | |
the issues that people tribute to your somewhere thesis, people not | :48:00. | :48:02. | |
feeling part of what's going on in terms of politics, that somehow in | :48:03. | :48:06. | |
terms of globalisation, for instance, that you should slow down | :48:07. | :48:10. | |
the passage of change and time? I think that's a very, very narrow | :48:11. | :48:13. | |
definition of progress. You're implying that what anywheres think | :48:14. | :48:18. | |
is in itself automatically a good thing. But just look at what has | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
happened in the last generation or two, in terms of the policy areas | :48:23. | :48:27. | |
that are so important. The way in which we have massively expanded | :48:28. | :48:30. | |
higher education, and largely ignored, at least until recently, | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
vocational and technical training, closed down all the polytechnics and | :48:36. | :48:40. | |
turned them into universities in 1992. Look at the so-called | :48:41. | :48:44. | |
knowledge economy, the very phrase, it's fine for highly educated | :48:45. | :48:48. | |
people, meanwhile we have acquired this hourglass labour market, and | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
all of those meddling jobs that gave lots of people status and decent | :48:53. | :48:56. | |
income so shrunk. Well, you've been in power under a Tory government and | :48:57. | :49:01. | |
a coalition government, so, to some extent, you are the presenter, | :49:02. | :49:04. | |
representing your constituency, as, no doubt, the anywheres, can you do | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
something about all of this? There was a certain amount of controversy | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
when Theresa May said at the party conference, said that the sense of | :49:14. | :49:19. | |
rootless people and rootless companies, using the international | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
tax system to ensure they did not pay too much tax... Occupy London | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
took place in my constituency five or six years ago, and I remember | :49:28. | :49:31. | |
saying then, it struck me that there were a lot of middle-class, | :49:32. | :49:35. | |
instinctively Tory voting people, who felt the rules of global | :49:36. | :49:38. | |
capitalism were skewed against them. It a slightly prodrug provocative | :49:39. | :49:43. | |
thesis, obviously, but in many ways, I think Theresa May's agenda is a | :49:44. | :49:49. | |
recognition that the whole Tony Blair, a little bit is is over, and | :49:50. | :49:53. | |
there is a sense of... That's the .4 Labour, you have been the losers. | :49:54. | :49:58. | |
Even if the Conservatives, as Mark said, had not taken enough into | :49:59. | :50:02. | |
account the views of those sorts of people, it is Labour that is nowhere | :50:03. | :50:06. | |
in the polls with the answers, it seems? In one sense, David's | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
analysis, I agree about the impact of low wages for a long time. | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
Constituents who voted leave, most of them voted remain but a | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
significant number of them did Vote Leave, and they say things like, to | :50:21. | :50:24. | |
get rid of David Cameron, or to get money for the NHS. People did want | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
to kick back against what they thought was an unfair system. But in | :50:29. | :50:32. | |
another way, I profoundly disagree with this analysis, firstly because | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
it is just mad to separate people into two groups. I'm sure your | :50:37. | :50:40. | |
analysis is not quite as stark as that, but I probably used to count | :50:41. | :50:49. | |
as a somewhere somebody who was born and grew up in my constituency and | :50:50. | :50:53. | |
represent all my family, and then I went to university, I became an | :50:54. | :50:56. | |
anywhere. I would urge you to read my book. Like I say, I did not just | :50:57. | :51:06. | |
invented these categories. They are there in the data. Everybody is an | :51:07. | :51:09. | |
individual and we all have combinations of anywhere and | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
somewhere, and there is a whole group of in between is. Isn't the | :51:15. | :51:17. | |
problem that for far too long, people in politics have gone, but at | :51:18. | :51:23. | |
the data, there is this interesting different groups, let's try and | :51:24. | :51:27. | |
marshal these different groups? Instead of saying, most people are | :51:28. | :51:30. | |
individuals, most people by and large want money in their pocket. | :51:31. | :51:35. | |
Obviously, at people can be donated by people from a certain kind of | :51:36. | :51:40. | |
background, including people from somewhere backgrounds who have been | :51:41. | :51:44. | |
very upwardly mobile. We have national social contracts and we | :51:45. | :51:47. | |
have disregarded them, particularly employers. We had 8000 construction | :51:48. | :51:54. | |
apprenticeships last year. We are meant to be building millions of | :51:55. | :51:57. | |
houses, what has been going on? And on that, we will leave it hanging. | :51:58. | :52:01. | |
In politics, the pen is mightier than the sword. | :52:02. | :52:03. | |
Theresa May certainly thinks so - she says that the letter triggering | :52:04. | :52:06. | |
Article 50 will be "one of the most important documents" | :52:07. | :52:08. | |
Our Ellie takes a look at some of the other contenders for | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
# I'm gonna sit right down and write myself a letter... | :52:14. | :52:23. | |
Theresa May has plenty of practice writing important correspondence. | :52:24. | :52:26. | |
One of her first job as PM was to pen four handwritten letters | :52:27. | :52:29. | |
of last resort to the commanders of Britain's nuclear submarines. | :52:30. | :52:31. | |
We don't know exactly what they say, obviously, but basically, | :52:32. | :52:33. | |
they contain orders on what to do if the Government has | :52:34. | :52:36. | |
been "incapacitated" because Britain has been destroyed. | :52:37. | :52:38. | |
And sticking with nuclear Armageddon, it's those important | :52:39. | :52:42. | |
letters that saved the world during the Cuban missile crisis. | :52:43. | :52:45. | |
The Soviet leader, Nikita Khrushchev, sent | :52:46. | :52:48. | |
a telegram to the US offering to dismantle its Cuban missile bases | :52:49. | :52:51. | |
if President Kennedy lifted its naval blockade | :52:52. | :52:54. | |
on the island and promised not to invade Cuba. | :52:55. | :52:58. | |
Then, he sent a second letter demanding the dismantling | :52:59. | :53:02. | |
President Kennedy agreed publicly to the first letter, | :53:03. | :53:07. | |
As with so many things in this life, less is more. | :53:08. | :53:13. | |
When Labour lost the 2010 election, the then Chief Secretary | :53:14. | :53:16. | |
to the Treasury, Liam Byrne, left a note to his successor that | :53:17. | :53:19. | |
Mr Byrne meant it as a joke, but felt the weight of his words | :53:20. | :53:29. | |
when they were repeatedly used to beat Labour over the head | :53:30. | :53:32. | |
"Dear Chief Secretary, I'm afraid there is no money..." | :53:33. | :53:35. | |
It's more than a decade since Prince Charles' black spider | :53:36. | :53:37. | |
memos, so-called not because they were about creepy | :53:38. | :53:40. | |
crawlies, but because of his handwriting skills. | :53:41. | :53:44. | |
The letters he wrote privately to Labour ministers were published | :53:45. | :53:47. | |
after a series of court cases and concerns by some | :53:48. | :53:50. | |
critics that he was trying to influence government policy - | :53:51. | :53:54. | |
This year sees the 100th anniversary of the Balfour declaration. | :53:55. | :53:59. | |
Boris Johnson showed Israel's Prime Minister, | :54:00. | :54:02. | |
Binyamin Netanyahu, around the room where it was written. | :54:03. | :54:05. | |
The letter was the first significant declaration by a world power | :54:06. | :54:08. | |
in favour of a Jewish national home in Palestine. | :54:09. | :54:14. | |
We're joined now by the historian Kate Williams. | :54:15. | :54:19. | |
Do you agree that the letter that will be sent trigger in Article 50 | :54:20. | :54:26. | |
will go down as the greatest in history, as Theresa May implies? I | :54:27. | :54:30. | |
think it certainly will. Whether or not it's the greatest, I think we | :54:31. | :54:34. | |
will see how final it was. A lot of the letters we were talking about in | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
that VT, they change history Mr Love about four declaration, there was no | :54:39. | :54:41. | |
going back after that, there was going to be an independent state for | :54:42. | :54:46. | |
the Jewish people. Whether not Theresa May's letter will be able to | :54:47. | :54:51. | |
be altered, which is of course what the Remains I'd want... But if the | :54:52. | :54:56. | |
Ukip conditions are kept to, then it will be the most historic I think in | :54:57. | :55:00. | |
recent British history. And they are still powerful, letters, aren't | :55:01. | :55:06. | |
they? If you think we are operating in a digital age, politically, | :55:07. | :55:13. | |
letters would still hold that much influence and sway? They do, and | :55:14. | :55:16. | |
it's fascinating to read them. You can read the Kennedy-Khrushchev | :55:17. | :55:21. | |
letters, and it is fascinating to think these two men, with so many | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
lives hanging in the balance, are communicating with each other in | :55:26. | :55:28. | |
this very polite way, dear Mr President... Although we think of | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
the huge networks of power, sometimes it does come down to the | :55:33. | :55:35. | |
communication between two individuals, in that case two men. | :55:36. | :55:39. | |
Do you think letter will go down as one of the most important in | :55:40. | :55:42. | |
history? You have touched on something, we live in this world of | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
tweeting and texting and actually, letters are now few and far between. | :55:47. | :55:53. | |
Can you remember how to write?! Scrawling away, spiderlike! One of | :55:54. | :55:56. | |
the interesting things about history, whether it is political | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
history or whatever, it is going to be so difficult to piece it together | :56:01. | :56:04. | |
in the way that we were able to in the past from those primary sources. | :56:05. | :56:08. | |
So much of it now is now done electronic live. So it will be an | :56:09. | :56:11. | |
important letter from that regard. I have been to the cue archives, which | :56:12. | :56:19. | |
are unbelievable, it is an amazing look back into history. In the | :56:20. | :56:23. | |
future, people will be scouring over tweets and interpreting the language | :56:24. | :56:26. | |
of a particular WhatsApp message or whatever. Food for thought! Letters | :56:27. | :56:32. | |
obviously get people into trouble, and they are written there and | :56:33. | :56:37. | |
remain for ever so. We touched on the Liam Byrne debtor at the time, | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
when he said, there is no money left. It was left as a joke but he | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
has said he regrets writing it! He really does. Sometimes a joke can | :56:47. | :56:51. | |
fall flat! It was pretty disastrous and an easy thing for David Cameron | :56:52. | :56:55. | |
to use in the campaign. I think we know now that all e-mails are not | :56:56. | :56:59. | |
private, any of our e-mails could be used. Of course we saw even texts, | :57:00. | :57:05. | |
with the example of the Surrey sweetheart deal being talked about | :57:06. | :57:08. | |
by Mr Corbyn, for example. But we still sometimes think there is | :57:09. | :57:13. | |
intimacy in a letter, a little note that you leave on the desk after you | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
go, by gentlemen's agreement, which of course was not the case. But | :57:18. | :57:25. | |
there is formality as well. They are intimate, but also terribly | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
official? Yes. And I think they do mean more. For example, the Prince | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
Charles letters, they do mean more than an e-mail because somebody has | :57:34. | :57:38. | |
taken the effort to put pen to paper. I think that even though we | :57:39. | :57:44. | |
are in a digital world, the biggest and most important things | :57:45. | :57:47. | |
politically happen through letters. Any letters that you have written, | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
that you regret? None that I regret. I would take Kate's point on board, | :57:53. | :58:00. | |
some of them you can reread with any mail, which you cannot with a | :58:01. | :58:04. | |
letter. I like the idea of a letter, handwritten in particular. I found | :58:05. | :58:17. | |
some rate letters from constituents, or famously a gentleman who once | :58:18. | :58:22. | |
wrote to me, after a media appearance, telling me that | :58:23. | :58:25. | |
unfortunately my top was too low, which was a particularly helpful | :58:26. | :58:31. | |
letter! Fashion advice! From angry of Tunbridge Wells! Next time I will | :58:32. | :58:39. | |
have to talk about the style of writing, I am always fascinated by | :58:40. | :58:42. | |
the way that people write these letters. Thank you for coming in. | :58:43. | :58:44. | |
There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz. | :58:45. | :58:47. | |
The question was - what is Nigel Farage | :58:48. | :58:49. | |
a) Advising Nicola Sturgeon over Scottish Indepedence? | :58:50. | :58:52. | |
b) Splitting California into East California | :58:53. | :58:55. | |
c) Helping Catalonia to break from Spain? | :58:56. | :59:00. | |
Or d) working with the Dalai Lama to have more autonomy for Tibet? | :59:01. | :59:03. | |
I think it might be the Catalunian option. And what do you think? Anger | :59:04. | :59:18. | |
to go with California, because Nigel Farage seems to be obsessed with | :59:19. | :59:21. | |
America. And you would be right! California it is! You win the prize! | :59:22. | :59:24. | |
I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big | :59:25. | :59:32. | |
Do join me then. Bye-bye. | :59:33. | :59:35. |