24/03/2017 Daily Politics


24/03/2017

Andrew Neil with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Journalists Paul Waugh and Caroline Wheeler join him throughout the programme.


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Police say their investigation into the terror attack

:00:37.:00:42.

on Westminster is focussing on the "motivation, preparation

:00:43.:00:46.

and associates" of Khalid Masood, and confirm several raids

:00:47.:00:50.

As the investigation widens, do the police and intelligence

:00:51.:00:56.

agencies have sufficient resources and legal powers to monitor

:00:57.:01:00.

all known on radical extremists in the UK?

:01:01.:01:06.

Ahead of the start of formal Brexit talks, we look at the future

:01:07.:01:09.

of the car industry, and ask what kind of trade

:01:10.:01:11.

deal would be best for manufacturing jobs in the UK.

:01:12.:01:17.

And we take a look back at the other political stories of the week,

:01:18.:01:21.

including rows at the top of Labour, and pressure on George Osborne

:01:22.:01:24.

All that in the next hour and with us for the duration

:01:25.:01:35.

Paul Waugh, the Executive Editor, Politics, at the Huffington Post,

:01:36.:01:38.

political editor at the Sunday Express.

:01:39.:01:42.

So, we will be devoting most of today's programme to coverage

:01:43.:01:47.

and discussion of the terror attack in London.

:01:48.:01:53.

But before we bring you the latest on the police investigation,

:01:54.:01:56.

politics is slowly returning to normal business,

:01:57.:01:59.

and ahead of the triggering of Article 50 next week

:02:00.:02:02.

the president of the European Commission, Jean Claude Juncker,

:02:03.:02:05.

has been speaking to the BBC's Europe Editor Katya Adler.

:02:06.:02:11.

How will you feel on Wednesday when that letter of notification,

:02:12.:02:13.

that formal letter of notification, arrives here in Brussels?

:02:14.:02:18.

I will be sad, as I was sad when the vote, the referendum

:02:19.:02:24.

But does it feel like a failure, President Juncker?

:02:25.:02:32.

Jean-Claude Juncker there, who has been saying many things about

:02:33.:02:45.

Britain in recent weeks, most of contradictory. One wiki is nice to

:02:46.:02:50.

us and the next week, he is threatening punishment. Yes, and he

:02:51.:02:52.

said the beginning of the week that basically, you know, the UK would

:02:53.:02:57.

regret its decision and then later on in the week we are told he is not

:02:58.:03:01.

going to punish us for our decision to go so we don't know where we

:03:02.:03:05.

stand but broadly, we do know that he's pretty hostile to the UK in

:03:06.:03:10.

terms of the negotiating position, that it remains to be seen where

:03:11.:03:14.

things go from there given the fact that, even though we are a long way

:03:15.:03:19.

off from the 23rd of June, the formal process Brexit only begins on

:03:20.:03:25.

Wednesday. Indeed. We know how important Jean-Claude Juncker is

:03:26.:03:27.

going to be in this. Angela Merkel can't stand him. Michel Barnier will

:03:28.:03:35.

be doing the negotiations for the commission, not Jean-Claude Juncker,

:03:36.:03:37.

but he has repeated again this figure of an exit bill of ?50

:03:38.:03:44.

billion, a figure floating around in Brussels. I would suggest to you it

:03:45.:03:48.

is politically impossible for any British government to the a figure

:03:49.:03:52.

anywhere near that. I think you're absolutely right which is why

:03:53.:03:55.

Cabinet ministers had been banging the table, putting their feet down

:03:56.:03:59.

this week and making absolutely clear ?3 billion would be massive,

:04:00.:04:05.

never mind 50 billion. Michel Barnier will be sparring constantly

:04:06.:04:09.

with David Davis and they are both old pros. They are both smart. They

:04:10.:04:14.

know what they are doing and they will be a negotiation obviously,

:04:15.:04:17.

give-and-take, and ultimately, it's a question of who will blink first

:04:18.:04:22.

and we will see who does. Tomorrow, the EU 27, all of them except

:04:23.:04:28.

Britain, are going to be celebrating the anniversary of the Treaty of

:04:29.:04:34.

Rome, a historic event in the 1950s that, because Brexit and other

:04:35.:04:38.

things, why would suggest as well, the election cycle in Europe, still

:04:39.:04:45.

massive levels of youth unemployment, it's taking place

:04:46.:04:48.

under something of a cloud? It is, and also if you think about the fact

:04:49.:04:53.

we're not going to there and Jean-Claude Juncker is very

:04:54.:04:56.

disappointed by the decision taken on the 23rd of June, it is going to

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be difficult to have a celebration falls are all so with a cloud of

:05:01.:05:04.

this terrorist attack in London, and it's very difficult for them to sort

:05:05.:05:08.

of talk about punishment beating and being very hard on us when London is

:05:09.:05:12.

yet again under the cloud of a terrorist attack, which is always

:05:13.:05:17.

going to colour these kinds of discussions. And when we know the

:05:18.:05:23.

vital importance of British intelligence and security services,

:05:24.:05:28.

not just to this country, but to the whole of Europe. That, as the

:05:29.:05:33.

primers to keep saying, won't change after Brexit. That intelligence

:05:34.:05:40.

links, sharing, and a former European arrest warrant could

:05:41.:05:43.

continue after Brexit but we talk about the European Union celebrating

:05:44.:05:46.

its anniversary but don't forget some of the countries over there and

:05:47.:05:49.

the leaders think coming out of the eurozone crisis, their economies are

:05:50.:05:56.

growing. The eurozone is growing. There is a sense of growing

:05:57.:05:59.

optimism, it is not doom and gloom and they think it's a brand-new

:06:00.:06:02.

chapter for them as much as us. We shall see.

:06:03.:06:03.

So far four people have died as a result of Wednesday's

:06:04.:06:05.

Another 50 are injured - several of them in critical condition.

:06:06.:06:14.

But after the emergency response comes the analysis

:06:15.:06:16.

As the hours pass, more information is emerging about the man police

:06:17.:06:20.

The police have formally identified him as 52-year-old

:06:21.:06:28.

Adrian Russell Ajao, born in Kent.

:06:29.:06:32.

The Met Police say he had a number of aliases,

:06:33.:06:34.

That was the first name we heard after the attack.

:06:35.:06:46.

Most recently he was living in the West Midlands,

:06:47.:06:48.

although he is also believed to have lived at certain times

:06:49.:06:50.

in different towns in Sussex, as well as Luton and east London.

:06:51.:06:55.

Ajao said he was a "teacher" - although the BBC has been able

:06:56.:07:00.

to confirm that he never worked as a qualified teacher

:07:01.:07:03.

He is also reported to have three children.

:07:04.:07:05.

Ajao had never been convicted of a terrorism offence

:07:06.:07:07.

but we know that some years ago he was investigated in relation

:07:08.:07:10.

He also had previous convictions for possession of a knife,

:07:11.:07:19.

grievous bodily harm and public order offences.

:07:20.:07:24.

This morning the acting Deputy Commissioner

:07:25.:07:27.

of the Metropolitan Police described the challenge facing the police,

:07:28.:07:31.

as they try to establish whether Ajao, or Masood

:07:32.:07:34.

as he was known, is part of a wider network of violent extremists.

:07:35.:07:39.

As I've said previously, our investigation focuses

:07:40.:07:41.

on understanding his motivation, his preparation and his associates.

:07:42.:07:43.

Whilst there is still no evidence of further threats,

:07:44.:07:51.

you will understand our determination is to find out

:07:52.:07:53.

if either he acted totally alone inspired by terrorist propaganda

:07:54.:08:00.

or if others have encouraged, supported or directed him.

:08:01.:08:05.

To that end, in our continuing investigation and ongoing covert

:08:06.:08:09.

activity, we have made two further significant arrests overnight.

:08:10.:08:14.

One in the West Midlands and one in the north-west.

:08:15.:08:18.

We now have nine people remaining in custody and one woman has

:08:19.:08:21.

We remain keen to hear from anyone who Khalid Masood,

:08:22.:08:29.

Anybody who understands who his associates were.

:08:30.:08:35.

Anyone who can provide information about the places

:08:36.:08:37.

There might well be people out there who did have concerns

:08:38.:08:44.

about Masood that weren't sure or didn't feel comfortable

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for whatever reasons in passing that information to us.

:08:49.:08:51.

I now urge anyone with such information to call us.

:08:52.:09:02.

That of head of counterterrorism at the Metropolitan Police.

:09:03.:09:04.

And we can speak now to the BBC's Security

:09:05.:09:06.

Gordon, at the moment in the public domain, all you know is that he

:09:07.:09:15.

acted alone, at least he was the lone actor on the day. But the

:09:16.:09:20.

police must think there could be more involved given the number of

:09:21.:09:24.

arrests they have made. That absolutely rightful soccer crucial

:09:25.:09:27.

phrase you use there was a lone actor on the day. It's clear he was

:09:28.:09:31.

the only person involved in carrying out the attack, but that doesn't

:09:32.:09:34.

necessarily mean they were not other people who supported him or knew

:09:35.:09:41.

about it or who paps directed and encouraged him to do it. That is the

:09:42.:09:45.

question police really want to answer at the moment because it

:09:46.:09:48.

answers whether there is any residual threat from other

:09:49.:09:51.

individuals out there who might be planning the same. So that is the

:09:52.:09:55.

reason that they are making these arrests, carrying out these

:09:56.:09:57.

searches, to try to understand whether those around him, the people

:09:58.:10:02.

we knew, the contacts he had, were significant and had any

:10:03.:10:05.

foreknowledge or involvement in the attack. The police will be at

:10:06.:10:09.

interrogating those they have been arrested Thomas but I'll assume

:10:10.:10:15.

Gordon, the police will also be trying to collect as much

:10:16.:10:19.

information as possible, not from people arrested, but just from its

:10:20.:10:22.

neighbours and people who might have known him and all the rest, which is

:10:23.:10:27.

where some quite key intelligence could come from I would think?

:10:28.:10:33.

That's right, they've gone to the hotelier where he stayed at just

:10:34.:10:38.

before the attack, talking to the people there, and the other crucial

:10:39.:10:41.

aspect to this is data, and they will look through communication

:10:42.:10:46.

electronics, travel records, for connections, did he have encrypted

:10:47.:10:51.

conversations with anyone? What were those are electronic devices he was

:10:52.:10:55.

using? What was he browsing on the Internet? That could point to

:10:56.:11:00.

whether others were involved, and was there, for instance, a guided

:11:01.:11:03.

hand abroad linked to so-called Islamic State? They have said he was

:11:04.:11:07.

their soldier but that does not necessarily mean they were directly

:11:08.:11:10.

involved in the attack, so that will also be one of the key lines of

:11:11.:11:15.

enquiry. In a way, Gordon, you would hope that it wasn't a sophisticated

:11:16.:11:21.

and highly organised network. He may have had some help, may have had

:11:22.:11:27.

amateurs in a sense like he was, but you would hope it wasn't

:11:28.:11:29.

sophisticated and well-organised, because we've always assumed at that

:11:30.:11:35.

level, our intelligence services will be on it as they have in

:11:36.:11:41.

previous cases where they have thwarted attacks. That's right,

:11:42.:11:43.

because the more sophisticated things are, the more people are

:11:44.:11:48.

involved and the more travel and relocation is involved, the more

:11:49.:11:51.

chances thereof for the intelligence services to find some entry point

:11:52.:11:54.

into a plot to spot one of those people and hope they are under

:11:55.:11:59.

surveillance, to intercept communications, and if it turns out

:12:00.:12:03.

that there were significant other contacts, if there is a network

:12:04.:12:05.

operating in the UK or a guiding hand abroad contacting people in the

:12:06.:12:12.

UK, and the authorities did not know about it, that would be something

:12:13.:12:17.

that will worry them. He wasn't part of the intelligence picture, the

:12:18.:12:21.

current picture, only something historic, and so that indicate they

:12:22.:12:25.

were not aware of people around him or of any contact, so I think they

:12:26.:12:29.

will be looking to establish that or weather, which so far it looks like,

:12:30.:12:35.

he was relatively isolated in his activity. Gordon, thank you very

:12:36.:12:39.

much for that. Let's go now to Birmingham.

:12:40.:12:40.

And I'm joined now by the MP for Birmingham Ladywood,

:12:41.:12:43.

Welcome to the programme. We learned quite a lot of police activity of

:12:44.:12:53.

the last 36 hours has been in part of your constituency, along the

:12:54.:12:56.

Hagley Road. Tell us a bit about that and what the police have been

:12:57.:13:00.

doing there. Andrew, as you know could there have been a number of

:13:01.:13:04.

arrests and police raids on some properties in Hagley Road and the

:13:05.:13:09.

Winston Green area of my constituency, which is not too far

:13:10.:13:14.

away. There is obviously community concern about that. Nobody wants to

:13:15.:13:17.

wake up and find they might have been living next door to a

:13:18.:13:23.

terrorist, a murderer, or anybody involved in that horrific terrorist

:13:24.:13:27.

attack and there is some community concern and the police have been

:13:28.:13:31.

very active and obviously arrests have been made and that sends

:13:32.:13:34.

reassurance investigation is continuing apace. I assume the

:13:35.:13:40.

arrests had been made and we've seen the pictures of the police on the

:13:41.:13:43.

Hagley Road and around the area, but I assume the police and also just be

:13:44.:13:46.

trying to find out from the locals there what they know, what they can

:13:47.:13:52.

tell? It may not seem important but in the broader picture of things, it

:13:53.:13:56.

could be and the police will be doing that in that part of your

:13:57.:14:00.

constituency? Yes, absolutely, there's been a strong message sent

:14:01.:14:03.

out to anybody in the area that if they know anything, if they saw

:14:04.:14:08.

Khalid Masood, they should share that information with the police. We

:14:09.:14:12.

have seen in the media in the last day or two, some residents in my

:14:13.:14:18.

area who may have lived next door to him or known him speaking to the

:14:19.:14:21.

media and also the police, as well, so anybody who knows anything of

:14:22.:14:24.

course is being encouraged to share that information with the police.

:14:25.:14:28.

There is a member of Unity community events planned for today and

:14:29.:14:31.

tomorrow as well and I know that message will go out very strongly

:14:32.:14:35.

and also Friday prayers across the city, people will send out a very

:14:36.:14:39.

clear message that anybody who knows anything about Khalid Masood, his

:14:40.:14:43.

associates, must share that information with the police.

:14:44.:14:47.

Birmingham has gone to a remarkable renaissance in recent years,

:14:48.:14:49.

particularly in the city centre. We see that in the picture behind you,

:14:50.:14:55.

which deaths looks wonderful. Is there a concern that fairly or

:14:56.:15:00.

unfairly, Birmingham is also getting a name for being a terrorist

:15:01.:15:05.

hotspot? I think of course there's been some recent academic research

:15:06.:15:09.

on members of terrorist convictions across the country which shows that

:15:10.:15:13.

Birmingham has the second-largest number of very considerably behind

:15:14.:15:16.

London. That is what you would expect in terms of the size of our

:15:17.:15:22.

city and the population here, but I think I would say that it is unfair

:15:23.:15:26.

to characterise our city in that way. You have to look at those

:15:27.:15:31.

numbers in context. We are talking about 39 convictions for terrorism

:15:32.:15:34.

from 1998 onwards in a city that has a Muslim population of 235,000, so

:15:35.:15:40.

we're talking about very small numbers but it's important we learn

:15:41.:15:44.

about those 39 and we think about the patterns and pathways towards

:15:45.:15:48.

radicalisation is that those 39 took so we can learn lessons, not just as

:15:49.:15:52.

a city but as a country because it never bodies interests and our

:15:53.:15:56.

desire to find out a way to completely eliminate this problem

:15:57.:15:58.

which is exactly what we all want to do. The numbers are higher because

:15:59.:16:02.

you are the second city is well and the population is bigger.

:16:03.:16:07.

A Are you satisfied that within the many and varied Muslim communities

:16:08.:16:13.

there are in the Greater Birmingham area, that most do feel comfortable,

:16:14.:16:18.

feel willing to come forward and give what help, what knowledge, what

:16:19.:16:23.

information they can to the police and Security Services? I mean

:16:24.:16:28.

certainly in my own personal spears, I have dealt with constituents who

:16:29.:16:31.

felt that they might have information that's useful to the

:16:32.:16:35.

police and they have never felt any compunction about sharing that with

:16:36.:16:38.

the police. I think there is a wider question around in particular the

:16:39.:16:41.

Government's Prevent strategy, which, you know, has been in the

:16:42.:16:46.

press a lot as to whether or not it has lost the confidence of the

:16:47.:16:49.

Muslim community, not just in Birmingham but across the country

:16:50.:16:52.

and I think Prevent in my experience has both good and bad aspects. There

:16:53.:16:59.

is someexaminent work that has taken place in Birmingham which has been

:17:00.:17:03.

effective. -- some excellent work. Which has prevented young people

:17:04.:17:06.

from travelling to Syria to take part in the fighting. But there has

:17:07.:17:11.

been some terrible practice and clangors by front line staff in

:17:12.:17:16.

terms of referring young children, in inappropriate circumstances, to

:17:17.:17:18.

various aspects of the Prevent strategy. I think the way to

:17:19.:17:22.

improve, that build further resilience and confidence in the

:17:23.:17:26.

community is to have a regular independent assessment of Prevent.

:17:27.:17:30.

We can learn where it is doing well and mainstream that and also

:17:31.:17:34.

eliminate bad practice to give communities further confidence that

:17:35.:17:38.

they are not being spied on and they must feel entirely comfortable

:17:39.:17:40.

sharing everything they know with the Security Services and police. I

:17:41.:17:43.

understand. It is very interesting. Let me ask you one final question.

:17:44.:17:51.

Do the people of Birmingham, their elected representatives like

:17:52.:17:53.

yourselves, the authorities, is there still much more to do yet on

:17:54.:17:57.

some problems that Birmingham schools have had with some sort of

:17:58.:18:03.

extremist atmosphere and environment here, and with extremist preachers?

:18:04.:18:07.

Are these two issue that is still need work done in the city? I think

:18:08.:18:12.

there has been some good work after the so-called Trojan Horse scandal,

:18:13.:18:17.

the issue you are referring to in relation to some Birmingham schools.

:18:18.:18:20.

That's about reasserting the norms around governance of schools and the

:18:21.:18:23.

responsibilities of governing bodies and I think the council and local

:18:24.:18:26.

authority accepted that there were errors they had made in not

:18:27.:18:30.

asserting the rules around governance properly and I think that

:18:31.:18:33.

has been dealt with but I would say that there is always work to do

:18:34.:18:37.

across our communities to build resilience, to make sure that we

:18:38.:18:41.

stamp out extremist, whether that is preachers or publication or

:18:42.:18:45.

literature. I think actually, if I was focussing resources, the thing I

:18:46.:18:49.

would really spend money on is on in the online space and asking tech

:18:50.:18:52.

companies, Google and others, that they need to do much more work and

:18:53.:19:00.

take much more responsibility about the sorts of material on their

:19:01.:19:03.

platforms which I think is accounting for a lot of online

:19:04.:19:05.

grooming and radicalisation that we are seeing particularly of young

:19:06.:19:09.

people. That is where we, across this country, have the biggest

:19:10.:19:13.

problem but I also think it is where we can come up with the best

:19:14.:19:17.

practical solution, working with the tech companies, making them take

:19:18.:19:20.

responsibility and getting the material off the online platforms.

:19:21.:19:24.

You are not the first politician to mention that to me this week, your

:19:25.:19:28.

fellow Birmingham area MP, Liam Byrne was on this programme talking

:19:29.:19:32.

about that earlier and making the same powerful points you are.

:19:33.:19:36.

Shabana Mahmood, we have to leer it there. Thank you for your time. --

:19:37.:19:38.

leave it there. Do the police and intelligence

:19:39.:19:42.

services have enough resources In the last parliament,

:19:43.:19:44.

the Government brought forward That would have given the police

:19:45.:19:48.

and the security services more powers to access

:19:49.:19:51.

people's digital communications. But that was dubbed the "Snooper's

:19:52.:19:53.

Charter" by its opponents. And in 2013, the then-Deputy

:19:54.:19:58.

Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, said that his Liberal Democrat MPs

:19:59.:20:00.

would block the bill In 2016, the Conservative

:20:01.:20:04.

Government brought forward a new piece of legislation -

:20:05.:20:10.

the Investigatory Powers Act. This gave the authorities more

:20:11.:20:14.

limited powers than had been Under the terms of the act,

:20:15.:20:17.

the police are allowed to see which websites

:20:18.:20:21.

suspects have visited. But they're not allowed to see

:20:22.:20:26.

the specific web pages In terms of funding,

:20:27.:20:28.

the Government is planning to spend an extra ?3.4 billion

:20:29.:20:33.

on counter-terrorism over And ministers say they will hire

:20:34.:20:38.

an extra 1,900 staff at MI5, However, the Government did cut

:20:39.:20:46.

police spending in real terms Total spending on the police

:20:47.:20:51.

in England and Wales fell from ?13.6 billion in 2010-11

:20:52.:20:59.

to ?11.7 billion in 2014-15. After the election in 2015,

:21:00.:21:03.

the Government said they would protect the police's

:21:04.:21:07.

budget in this parliament. The Security Minister, Ben Wallace,

:21:08.:21:14.

was on this programme yesterday and Jo asked him if the authorities

:21:15.:21:16.

currently have the Do you think the security services

:21:17.:21:19.

and GCHQ have enough resources to tackle all the potential suspects

:21:20.:21:32.

that could perform this sort I meet with them regularly and I ask

:21:33.:21:35.

and this Government has increased resources to fighting

:21:36.:21:41.

counter-terrorism across Government and internationally by 30%

:21:42.:21:43.

over this parliament. We have expanded MI6,

:21:44.:21:45.

MI5 and GCHQ to meet the threat and we are very alive to asking

:21:46.:21:53.

those agencies whether they have To discuss this we've been joined by

:21:54.:21:56.

the Liberal Democrat peer and former Deputy Assistant Commissioner

:21:57.:22:05.

of the Metropolitan And in our Exeter studio is

:22:06.:22:06.

the Conservative MP Johnny Mercer. Welcome to the both. Brian Paddick,

:22:07.:22:18.

you want to move away from blanket surveillance towards more targeted

:22:19.:22:24.

monitoring. But maybe the only way that you pick up somebody like

:22:25.:22:28.

Masood is by blanket surveillance. It is interesting, Andrew, I was

:22:29.:22:35.

briefed by the Security Services. I visited GCHQ during the discussions

:22:36.:22:39.

around the investigatory powers act. They did not need the blanket web

:22:40.:22:46.

history information that you referred to before. They say that

:22:47.:22:51.

they have other means of identifying that information. So, those powers

:22:52.:22:56.

are eroding people's civil liberties, they are eroding freedom,

:22:57.:23:00.

which is of course what the extremists want, and Security

:23:01.:23:02.

Services say that they don't need those powers. The Security Services

:23:03.:23:07.

wanted the investigatory powers act. I'm not saying we are against that

:23:08.:23:12.

act as a whole, there are some good elements. But they want it as a

:23:13.:23:17.

whole? The Security Services said they did not need and did not want

:23:18.:23:21.

what is called internet connection records which is the web history of

:23:22.:23:27.

every citizen of this history being held for 12 months. This is the

:23:28.:23:31.

information about every web page... I see. So this is the actual pages

:23:32.:23:37.

as opposed to the sites. Exactly. What do you say to that Mr Mercer.

:23:38.:23:46.

If someone is regularly visiting Islamic State.com, in a way you

:23:47.:23:50.

really need to know what the actual pages are, they are looking at. The

:23:51.:23:54.

fact that they are going on to that website, which you can find out,

:23:55.:23:57.

isn't that enough to put a red flag up? Well, I don't really recognise

:23:58.:24:03.

what your other guest is saying in terms of what the Security Services

:24:04.:24:06.

need in terms of powers. I think, you know, this bill has come,

:24:07.:24:09.

through it's been scrutinised by three committees. It's been changed,

:24:10.:24:14.

it's had all the attention that it gets going through Parliament and it

:24:15.:24:17.

has been fed into by professionals and this is what they have asked

:24:18.:24:22.

for, or required to keep us safe. I don't really think it is for

:24:23.:24:25.

politicians and others to sort of make political points around civil

:24:26.:24:29.

liberties. We all understand the points around civil liberties and

:24:30.:24:32.

how important they are, but, you know, freedom isn't free. We have to

:24:33.:24:38.

protect our way of life and if those we are going to ask to do that

:24:39.:24:41.

require extra nous a digital age, which is becoming more complex, I

:24:42.:24:46.

think we should give it to them. -- require extra powers. But Brian

:24:47.:24:55.

Paddick's point was on the security servings he says, said they didn't

:24:56.:24:59.

need to know all the web pages everybody has visited. OK, well, he

:25:00.:25:04.

said, she said, I can't comment on the specifics of his conversations

:25:05.:25:10.

in GCHQ. I know that intelligence and Security Services that I have

:25:11.:25:13.

worked with in the past, you know, we need the tools at our disposal to

:25:14.:25:20.

be able to do the job and one of those is surveillance, an electronic

:25:21.:25:26.

surveillance of individuals, to try and identify these attack that is

:25:27.:25:29.

are really really difficult to identify. Can I clarify this. If the

:25:30.:25:34.

intelligence services get intelligence that somebody is a

:25:35.:25:36.

suspected terrorists. We have no problem at all, from that moment

:25:37.:25:41.

onwards, that person's communications, every website they

:25:42.:25:45.

visited, that information being accessible. Would they need a

:25:46.:25:52.

warrant for that? They would not need a warrant to be able to ask the

:25:53.:25:56.

internet service provider to provide details of the last 12 months of

:25:57.:26:01.

every web page. They don't need a warrant for under that these powers.

:26:02.:26:06.

What we are saying if somebody is suspected from that moment on, keep

:26:07.:26:09.

that information. But not every innocent member of the public in

:26:10.:26:13.

this country. The other concern that I have, is, yes, there is all this

:26:14.:26:17.

money going into the Security Service, but the budgets are being

:26:18.:26:22.

cut for the police. So what we saw on Wednesday was this individual,

:26:23.:26:27.

nowhere on the radar as far as the Security Services are concerned,

:26:28.:26:31.

carrying out this attack. But he had been on the radar but didn't seem to

:26:32.:26:35.

be worthwhile keeping him on it. Not currently on the radar. And there

:26:36.:26:38.

are not sufficient armed police or community police officers who could

:26:39.:26:41.

be working with communities around the country, getting the information

:26:42.:26:45.

that the Security Services need, so they can target their resources more

:26:46.:26:48.

accurately on the most dangerous people. That community - those

:26:49.:26:51.

community policing officers are being cutback. There are

:26:52.:26:55.

insufficient armed officers because the Metropolitan Police, for

:26:56.:26:58.

example, has had ?1 billion cut from its budget in the last six years.

:26:59.:27:03.

Let me put to that Jonny Mercer, Conservative MP. Total police

:27:04.:27:09.

spending in England and Wales was 13.6 billion pounds in 2011, by 2015

:27:10.:27:14.

it was 11.7. That's in real terms. So in cash terms, of course, much,

:27:15.:27:20.

much bigger. You can all the sophisticated electronic equipment

:27:21.:27:24.

in the world but nothing beats a local person coming up to the bobby

:27:25.:27:28.

and saying -- I'm a bit worried about what is happening in number

:27:29.:27:34.

24. Absolutely. Look the spend around counter-terrorism, the

:27:35.:27:37.

visible part of policing that is so important in our communities, is as

:27:38.:27:41.

important as it has ever been but the digital threat around technology

:27:42.:27:45.

and so on, as your previous MP from Birmingham was saying - that is

:27:46.:27:57.

xoencely growing all -- oxpoentiallye spanning all the time.

:27:58.:28:00.

It is a team effort across government. Sure but you have cut it

:28:01.:28:08.

in real terms. But it is across Government to try to counter the

:28:09.:28:11.

threats we saw earlier this week. Not only the police, in other areas

:28:12.:28:16.

as W it is at times like this we defeat this as a teenagers at

:28:17.:28:18.

politicians, police, community providers. I don't think it is

:28:19.:28:29.

really a time for cheap politic about an existential threat. Excuse

:28:30.:28:36.

What is the cheap political point? The point coming from your, from the

:28:37.:28:40.

other speaker is that the Government has cut this, that and the other.

:28:41.:28:45.

They have made challenges decisions in a fiscal environment. But around

:28:46.:28:49.

armed officers it is an operational policing decision. The Home

:28:50.:28:52.

Secretary and Government doesn't stipulate how many armed officers

:28:53.:28:55.

you have. We have a very challenging set of threats that is getting

:28:56.:28:58.

greater all the time. I think the police is doing a good job and we

:28:59.:29:02.

should get behind them. You don't think it is legitimate that at a

:29:03.:29:10.

time when Westminster has just been under attack, to raise the matter

:29:11.:29:15.

for public debate that the police budget has been cut by ?2 billion in

:29:16.:29:19.

real terms. It is surely not a cheap political point. It is a perfectly

:29:20.:29:24.

legitimate matter to raise. Yeah, the police budget that you have been

:29:25.:29:29.

talking about has been cut, what about all the other spending into

:29:30.:29:37.

Security Services and the growth around MI5 and MI6 and QCHF. These

:29:38.:29:44.

are all the measures we bring into the counter-terrorism fight.

:29:45.:29:48.

Paul Waugh has been listening, there is more money for the intelligence

:29:49.:29:52.

services, and there will be more but in this current envainment cutting

:29:53.:30:00.

police money will be more difficult. Don't forget he was Home Secretary

:30:01.:30:09.

when the cats took place. Now maybe the idea that neighbourhood policing

:30:10.:30:13.

has been cut, that message will be ahead of it louder. Of course, don't

:30:14.:30:18.

forget, too, for the Prime Minister, she was behind this new

:30:19.:30:22.

investigatory Powers act, that, at the same time, she's got someone in

:30:23.:30:26.

her Cabinet, David Davis, who was a big civil libertarian and we didn't

:30:27.:30:30.

see in her statement yesterday, as powerful as it was, was no

:30:31.:30:34.

suggestion of extra powers, extra legislation, no repeat of Tony Blair

:30:35.:30:39.

seven 712 point plan, she was very clear for not to make any promises

:30:40.:30:43.

in terms of new powers. There was no policy changes, which was

:30:44.:30:49.

interesting. She didn't go down that road falls of the government would

:30:50.:30:52.

say these budgets have been cut. That, actually, crime has fallen,

:30:53.:30:58.

the counterterrorist police have thwarted 13 attempts to attack our

:30:59.:31:02.

nation, and the police are doing more with less. Yes, that's always

:31:03.:31:06.

been their argument and also the ointment has been about the changing

:31:07.:31:09.

nature of crime, the fact we are much more likely, instead of having

:31:10.:31:13.

our house burgled and robbed on the street, it's defined people

:31:14.:31:17.

accessing our bank accounts, so the very nature of crime is changed so

:31:18.:31:22.

community policing is not as valid as it was before when they were

:31:23.:31:26.

having to physically go to people's houses and interview them about

:31:27.:31:31.

break-ins etc, so that has been one argument. It is interesting she

:31:32.:31:34.

didn't say anything yesterday about extra powers and the new review of

:31:35.:31:40.

terrorism was actually quite clear he thought not only did we have

:31:41.:31:44.

enough powers but perhaps we had too many powers. It's interesting that

:31:45.:31:48.

that narrative was coming out before this but I think the attack will

:31:49.:31:52.

change that a game. As a person who was Home Secretary for six years

:31:53.:31:56.

beforehand, she found herself in the unusual position, saying, wide and

:31:57.:32:04.

you get powers when you are Home Secretary? It's interesting having a

:32:05.:32:09.

Prime Minister who was Home Secretary covering these vital

:32:10.:32:12.

issues coming to the fore even more after what happened there. Thank you

:32:13.:32:16.

be joining us this morning. We believe that there. -- we will leave

:32:17.:32:20.

it there. Yesterday, in the House of Commons,

:32:21.:32:22.

the Prime Minister paid tribute to the police and the emergency

:32:23.:32:24.

services for their response Theresa May's statement was followed

:32:25.:32:27.

by a series of speeches by MPs. Here's just some of

:32:28.:32:30.

their contributions. Tragically, as the House

:32:31.:32:32.

will know, 48-year-old PC PC Palmer had devoted his life

:32:33.:32:35.

to the service of his country. He had been a member

:32:36.:32:45.

of the Parliamentary and Diplomatic Protection Command for 15

:32:46.:32:47.

years and a soldier He was a husband and a father,

:32:48.:32:51.

killed doing a job he loved. He was every inch a hero and his

:32:52.:33:00.

actions will never be forgotten. We see the police and

:33:01.:33:05.

security every day. They're our colleagues,

:33:06.:33:09.

they're fellow workers, they're friends, they're neighbours

:33:10.:33:12.

and as the Prime Minister said, when dangerous and violent

:33:13.:33:16.

incidents take place, we all instinctively run away

:33:17.:33:20.

from them, for our own safety, the police and emergency services

:33:21.:33:24.

run towards them. We are grateful for the public

:33:25.:33:27.

service yesterday, today and every day that they pull on their uniforms

:33:28.:33:32.

to protect us all. No terrorist outrage

:33:33.:33:38.

is representative of any faith, or of any faith community

:33:39.:33:42.

and we recommit ourselves to strengthening the bonds

:33:43.:33:46.

of tolerance and understanding. Those who attack us hate our

:33:47.:33:49.

freedom, our peaceful democracy, our love of country,

:33:50.:33:54.

our tolerance, our Now, as we work to unravel how this

:33:55.:33:57.

unspeakable attack happened, will she agree with me that we must

:33:58.:34:04.

not, either in our laws or by our actions, curtail these values,

:34:05.:34:09.

indeed we should have more of them? This was an horrific crime and it

:34:10.:34:14.

has cost lives and caused injuries but as an act of terror,

:34:15.:34:20.

it has failed. It has failed because we are here

:34:21.:34:24.

and we are going to go It's failed because,

:34:25.:34:28.

despite the trauma that they witnessed outside their windows,

:34:29.:34:32.

our staff are here and they are It failed because, as the Prime

:34:33.:34:36.

Minister so rightly said, we are not going to allow this to be

:34:37.:34:42.

used as a pretext for division, This democracy is strong and this

:34:43.:34:47.

Parliament is robust. This was an horrific

:34:48.:34:55.

crime but as an act With your indulgence, Sir,

:34:56.:34:58.

I would like to turn for a moment to PC Keith Palmer,

:34:59.:35:04.

who I first met 25 years ago as Gunner Keith Palmer

:35:05.:35:08.

at Headquarters Battery, He was a strong, professional,

:35:09.:35:11.

public servant... And it was a delight to meet him

:35:12.:35:23.

here again only a few months A difficult time there for the

:35:24.:35:41.

Conservative MP. There were many tributes to PC Palmer in the debate

:35:42.:35:44.

and a recognition of the carnage that it happened on Westminster

:35:45.:35:50.

Bridge where the attacker had driven along that bridge knowing people

:35:51.:35:54.

down, much worse in the end than we thought it was when we first heard

:35:55.:36:00.

about it and even last night, 75-year-old man died of his

:36:01.:36:04.

injuries. So for both inside and outside the Houses of Parliament of

:36:05.:36:08.

Westminster, this was a very, very difficult time for the capital city.

:36:09.:36:14.

Caroline, one thing they may have changed, in recent years,

:36:15.:36:19.

Westminster has become almost a term of derision, it has become, for many

:36:20.:36:22.

who want to attack the political system here, the way Washington is a

:36:23.:36:30.

term of derision for a lot of American politicians in the

:36:31.:36:33.

heartlands. I would suggest, after seeing that and after what has

:36:34.:36:38.

happened, more difficult to make it a term of derision now. Yes, I think

:36:39.:36:42.

you are right. It changes the narrative around it, and there was

:36:43.:36:47.

people looking down their noses and actually when you looked at what was

:36:48.:36:52.

said in the chamber, the words of solidarity with PC Palmer who

:36:53.:36:56.

basically gave his life to protect thousands of people who work in that

:36:57.:37:01.

building, it's not just about the MPs and the privileged elite, there

:37:02.:37:05.

are members of staff cleaners, who work in that building who do that

:37:06.:37:10.

job day in, day out, knowing it's always going to be a focus of

:37:11.:37:14.

attention for people that want to disrupt our way of life and inflict

:37:15.:37:18.

harm on our democratic processes. We always talk about the Westminster

:37:19.:37:22.

village and the bubble, how cut off we are from the rest of the country.

:37:23.:37:34.

But the attacker, unwittingly, has also shown that this village has

:37:35.:37:38.

many fine people in it who have risen to the occasion of what the

:37:39.:37:44.

atrocities have happened. Very much so. The Foreign Office minister was

:37:45.:37:49.

very directly involved, Toby Elmore. I had the dubious privilege of

:37:50.:37:53.

having an office which looked over and seeing him try desperately to

:37:54.:37:58.

save the peace man's life along with other paramedics and policemen. --

:37:59.:38:05.

policeman. Maybe this is a tidal change now because is not just

:38:06.:38:09.

Westminster but Westminster Bridge where it happened and to many, many

:38:10.:38:14.

people see that as a national symbol of that view across the bridge of

:38:15.:38:17.

Big Ben, why ceremony people go there, tourists, and that's why one

:38:18.:38:22.

of those people who died yesterday where there and today we find out we

:38:23.:38:26.

had a pensioner who has been named as having been killed in his own

:38:27.:38:33.

city. Yes, from Streatham. Exactly. Westminster is all of us in the

:38:34.:38:37.

sense it represents all of us, and maybe that is exactly why he made

:38:38.:38:38.

the wrong move attacking it. Now, as we know, the Prime Minister

:38:39.:38:41.

will next Wednesday formally inform the European Union of the UK's

:38:42.:38:44.

intention to leave the EU. Ahead of this key moment

:38:45.:38:46.

on the journey to Brexit, I've got I can't even say at! It has been a

:38:47.:38:58.

And it's this: Which member of the EU makes the most cars?

:38:59.:39:03.

By one measure it's Slovakia, which produces more vehicles

:39:04.:39:05.

You did not see that coming! The population is not huge.

:39:06.:39:12.

So do they see Brexit as an opportunity to rev

:39:13.:39:16.

up their industry at the expense of the UK?

:39:17.:39:20.

Adam's been to the Slovak capital Bratislava to find out.

:39:21.:39:28.

A massive garage for a country that makes a lot of cars.

:39:29.:39:31.

Peugeot, Citroen, they've got a factory here.

:39:32.:39:36.

There's a few Kias around around here.

:39:37.:39:38.

There's a Porsche Cayenne over there.

:39:39.:39:45.

That's made in Slovakia as well and over there is a Land Rover

:39:46.:39:48.

and in a couple of years they'll be manufactured in Slovakia too.

:39:49.:39:53.

The three big car manufacturers based here produce more

:39:54.:39:55.

Along with their suppliers, they account for around a quarter

:39:56.:40:02.

of a million jobs and 13% of the country's national income.

:40:03.:40:06.

The Economy Minister has lured them here with tax breaks and government

:40:07.:40:18.

money and it sounds like more could be on the way.

:40:19.:40:22.

Many companies want to remove from the UK to European countries

:40:23.:40:26.

and we offer these companies the possibility to place

:40:27.:40:28.

Obviously you're discussing with car companies moving

:40:29.:40:37.

With companies based in the UK, they want to remove their businesses

:40:38.:40:51.

But, because the UK is also a big market for Slovakia,

:40:52.:41:00.

he wants the Brexit negotiations to produce a free trade

:41:01.:41:02.

I support this agreement and I think it is good for business and good

:41:03.:41:13.

for creating jobs for the both economies, for the European Union

:41:14.:41:16.

economy and for the UK economy it will be a challenge,

:41:17.:41:20.

He suggests something along the lines of a trade deal struck

:41:21.:41:26.

between the EU and Canada, although he also says it would have

:41:27.:41:29.

to include some form of freedom of movement.

:41:30.:41:33.

When it comes to the Brexit negotiations, there are another 26

:41:34.:41:38.

But it does give us an interesting idea what direction

:41:39.:41:43.

And we've been joined by the chairman of the Commons

:41:44.:41:57.

Business Select Committee, Iain Wright.

:41:58.:42:01.

Welcome to the programme. In general terms, how big a risk is the country

:42:02.:42:11.

like Slovenia, in chunks of our car industry moving there? On the +, the

:42:12.:42:15.

British car industry is a real success story. We have a great

:42:16.:42:19.

workforce, it's very productive and efficient and it's not easy to

:42:20.:42:24.

replicate it. Very high-tech. Exactly, so the degree of innovation

:42:25.:42:28.

going into our cars, it's a good success story but, having said that,

:42:29.:42:32.

car manufacturers, multinationals, they want access to the widest

:42:33.:42:36.

possible customer base and that will mean being part of the single market

:42:37.:42:40.

and so if you own a car company and you are thinking where do I'd put my

:42:41.:42:46.

latest investment? You could think this so much uncertainty about

:42:47.:42:49.

Brexit, I think I will have my new model in wherever. Because then I

:42:50.:42:56.

know I'm totally inside. There's no tariffs, barriers, and I can bring

:42:57.:43:02.

labour in and out as well. Did they miss something when economic

:43:03.:43:10.

minister Dave tax breaks and incentives to go there? I thought

:43:11.:43:13.

the EU was meant to be a level playing field? I think other

:43:14.:43:18.

countries use state aid rules for the national economy is better than

:43:19.:43:22.

we do. It's a frustration. You mean we don't cheat like they do? Cheat

:43:23.:43:28.

is a strong web that help your comparative strengths. It's a case

:43:29.:43:33.

of having to protect our national economies, not in a protectionist

:43:34.:43:37.

sense, but this is a fiercely competitive global race and it's how

:43:38.:43:42.

do we protect our global manufacturing in Britain? As you

:43:43.:43:47.

say, our car industry, after having been, I was an industrial

:43:48.:43:51.

correspondence in the 70s, it was a joke in Europe, and is now a huge

:43:52.:43:55.

success story. Some of our plants are the most efficient in the world.

:43:56.:43:59.

You have been bitten what needs to be done to the car industry, what

:44:00.:44:03.

the government needs to do to remain a success post Brexit. What have you

:44:04.:44:11.

found? There are two things. The long-term view, you don't just start

:44:12.:44:16.

a car manufacturing plant tomorrow. It takes time to be able to turn

:44:17.:44:20.

things around and so having that long-term view as part of an

:44:21.:44:23.

industrial strategy, which favoured areas of competitive strength, that,

:44:24.:44:28.

in the short to medium term with regards to Brexit, we've got to

:44:29.:44:31.

provide certainty as much as possible and replicate the nature of

:44:32.:44:35.

the single market in order to provide confidence for those car

:44:36.:44:40.

manufacturers. I heard him saying Slovenia would be happy with the

:44:41.:44:43.

free trade deal for Great Britain along the lines of the Canadian EU

:44:44.:44:49.

free trade deal. Would that be as good, if we are not members of the

:44:50.:44:54.

single market, which we won't be, is a free trade deal as good as it gets

:44:55.:44:59.

and would that be pretty good? It's better than no deal. The Prime

:45:00.:45:03.

Minister said no deal is better than no deal. Than a bad deal. Sorry,

:45:04.:45:08.

yes, that's true but that's a concern because of tariffs, the

:45:09.:45:14.

rules which slapped 10% on car exports for us, that would make is

:45:15.:45:19.

very uncompetitive. I have been saying Slovenia but Slovakia we are

:45:20.:45:22.

talking about here. A deal was done with it Nissan cars

:45:23.:45:32.

which seemed to keep Nissan happy but one of the problems is we don't

:45:33.:45:36.

really know what that deal s if it was a deal in the sense of an

:45:37.:45:40.

actually written down deal as opposed to ministers saying - don't

:45:41.:45:43.

worry everything would be fine. Would it not be helpful if there was

:45:44.:45:47.

more transparency and other car manufacturers can see what is on

:45:48.:45:51.

offer from the British Government? I do think that's fair, Nissan in my

:45:52.:45:55.

part of the world, and it is important for the north-east economy

:45:56.:45:59.

but the likes of Toyota and Honda will be saying, if Nissan gets

:46:00.:46:02.

something, what about us but it is not a done deal, Nissan have gone on

:46:03.:46:06.

the record saying they are reevaluating their investment in the

:46:07.:46:09.

light of what might happen with the Brexit negotiations. So this is

:46:10.:46:13.

going to come to the fore, this is all the stuff we'll have to to get

:46:14.:46:17.

across once Article 50 is industriered. That is he a right. It

:46:18.:46:20.

seems like a long time coming we are finally at this point where the

:46:21.:46:23.

negotiations will start finally and trade will be a very big aspect of

:46:24.:46:27.

that. I can tell you now, we have Liam Fox writing for us in the

:46:28.:46:30.

Sunday Express this week where hopefully he will answer some of the

:46:31.:46:33.

ideas about what the processes are going to look at in terms of our

:46:34.:46:37.

trade... I bet he doesn't. Do you think that's going to be pulled

:46:38.:46:44.

then? I hope not. One of the interesting thing about cars, I have

:46:45.:46:49.

a friend who works in t and he points out it is a low margin

:46:50.:46:53.

industry and if there are tariffs it makes a difference and that's why

:46:54.:46:58.

someone like Liam Fox has to sort out is a long-term or transitional

:46:59.:47:02.

deal. The whole tariff business is a two-way stream, if they put tariffs

:47:03.:47:08.

in our cars that makes us less competitive, although we have been

:47:09.:47:10.

much less competitive with the fall in the pound. But we, I assume put

:47:11.:47:15.

tariffs in their car, that may not be overall a sensible thing o to do.

:47:16.:47:21.

That would mean people would be more inclined to buy a Jaguar than

:47:22.:47:26.

Mercedes, more inclined to buy a car made here than in France, for

:47:27.:47:29.

example. It is difficult to see what is in the wash in the end? I think

:47:30.:47:33.

you demonstrate it is in all of our interests that we get a good deal.

:47:34.:47:36.

We don't know either of these things. But having said, that the

:47:37.:47:40.

likes of France and Spain may be saying - hang on, we could aFrank

:47:41.:47:46.

these car manufacturing plants and provide employment that's currently

:47:47.:47:50.

in the UK, on to the continent. So we have to be important. One final

:47:51.:47:54.

thing on, that the Peugeot-Citroen take over the Vauxhall, the remnant

:47:55.:47:59.

part of General Motors in Europe, the fact that the French Government

:48:00.:48:03.

has a combhing in that, that must be a little bit worrying? Of course it

:48:04.:48:08.

is. It is the year of the French presidential election, any candidate

:48:09.:48:11.

will be saying - what can we offer you, what sort of sweet heart deal

:48:12.:48:17.

can we do? There is a considerable undercapacity in European car plants

:48:18.:48:19.

and so they could move production. So it is a concern and the British

:48:20.:48:23.

Government does need to provide clarity and certainty on that. We

:48:24.:48:28.

will keep across all of this as the Article 50 talks get under way and

:48:29.:48:31.

Ian Wright I hope you come back and continue to brief us on this. Thank

:48:32.:48:33.

you. The terrorist attack on Wednesday

:48:34.:48:35.

has rightly commanded the attention of politicians,

:48:36.:48:37.

the public and the media. But while politics-as-normal has

:48:38.:48:39.

been suspended for 48 hours, politics this week has been

:48:40.:48:46.

as lively as ever. Labour's deputy lead accused union

:48:47.:48:54.

boss, Len McCluskey, of plotting a hard-left takeover

:48:55.:48:58.

of the party. Sometimes spirits in

:48:59.:49:00.

the Labour Party can run high. George Osborne was the subject

:49:01.:49:05.

of an urgent question in the Commons When I heard that this urgent

:49:06.:49:10.

question had been granted, I thought it was important to be

:49:11.:49:19.

here, although unfortunately we've missed deadline

:49:20.:49:23.

for the Evening Standard. At Prime Minister's Questions,

:49:24.:49:25.

Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn clashed on school funding

:49:26.:49:29.

and grammars but the PM was defiant. Typical Labour, take the advantage

:49:30.:49:31.

and pull up the ladder behind you. Two reports suggest millions

:49:32.:49:38.

of people may have to work longer to qualify for a state pension -

:49:39.:49:42.

possibly until the age of 70. And Martin McGuinness, the IRA

:49:43.:49:48.

commander-turned peace maker, So things did go on as normal even

:49:49.:50:05.

as we were focussing on the terrorist attack here at Westminster

:50:06.:50:10.

this week. The Labour Party leadership - can I suggest that this

:50:11.:50:16.

battle for the leadership of night night has become a proxy war for the

:50:17.:50:20.

liedership of the Labour Party. -- of Unite. You have pro-Corbyn in

:50:21.:50:26.

McCluskey and anti-Corbyn in the challenger I think that's what Tom

:50:27.:50:30.

Watson was trying to do, in effect say - if you vote for Len McCluskey,

:50:31.:50:36.

you vote for death of the Labour Party. Whereas if you vote for the

:50:37.:50:43.

other candidate, you stop the hold that the har left have on T I think

:50:44.:50:48.

there is this notion that they are going to fund Momentum candidates

:50:49.:50:51.

rather than moderate Labour candidates and we have seen it going

:50:52.:50:54.

on in Birmingham with the mayoral context up there. You can frame it

:50:55.:50:57.

within that argument, I think. I don't get the - am I right in

:50:58.:51:02.

thinking Mr McCluskey is still pretty much the favourite to be

:51:03.:51:06.

re-elected? Yes, most people I talk to, it is not measured just by the

:51:07.:51:09.

nominations that he gets but he is 80% ahead in terms of the

:51:10.:51:12.

nominations but more importantly in terms of the impact on the Labour

:51:13.:51:16.

Party, I was outside the Parliamentary Labour Party meeting

:51:17.:51:18.

on Monday night, one of my duties I do every week on a Monday. You did a

:51:19.:51:25.

great report. Have you got a tumbler up against the wall? A good mobile

:51:26.:51:31.

phone. I I didn't need the tumbler because the shouts was so loud,

:51:32.:51:34.

people shouting at Jeremy Corbyn. That's why he put out that video

:51:35.:51:41.

trying to reassure people. There was' genuine anger about the

:51:42.:51:47.

briefing going on over Tom Watson. That's why because there was a truce

:51:48.:51:52.

for a while but it boiled over this week because of the Unite election.

:51:53.:51:56.

If George Osborne had been in Parliament on Wednesday afternoon he

:51:57.:51:59.

would have been part of the lock-out, he couldn't have got out,

:52:00.:52:03.

only a mobile phone, battery running out adds many people found and the

:52:04.:52:07.

city of which he is now editor of the biggest local newspaper, would

:52:08.:52:11.

be producing its second edition, or a special edition because the city

:52:12.:52:16.

was under attack. But he couldn't, as editor have done anything about

:52:17.:52:21.

that at all. Is he going to survive as an MP and an editor? That's the

:52:22.:52:26.

question lots and lots of MPs are asking and indeed virtually all the

:52:27.:52:30.

bodies that oversee the sort of standards and conduct of MPs are

:52:31.:52:35.

also looking into this as an issue. The idea that you would consider an

:52:36.:52:42.

MP's job as being a full-time job, and you would really consider being

:52:43.:52:45.

an editor of a newspaper, even a smaller regional newspaper... It is

:52:46.:52:47.

a time-and-a-half job, let me tell you More than full time and that's

:52:48.:52:52.

along with what, he has five or four other jobs on top of that. Don't

:52:53.:52:56.

forget there was due to be a 1922 Committee meeting where he was going

:52:57.:53:00.

to be hauled over the coals by some Tory MPs for this Standard job. As

:53:01.:53:04.

it happened during the urgent question you saw there, a lot of

:53:05.:53:08.

Tory MPs rallied around George Osborne, they didn't like it that

:53:09.:53:11.

Labour was going on the attack so aggressively. So he had respite but

:53:12.:53:16.

Caroline is right, a lot of Tory MPs are still upset. An influential

:53:17.:53:21.

report came out, perhaps of a sign of things to come, the Cridlyn

:53:22.:53:25.

report, the former Director-General of the CBI. All the headlines #3r

:53:26.:53:32.

about, if you are 29, you have to work until you are 96 before you get

:53:33.:53:36.

to retirement, quite rightly it got in the headlines but interesting

:53:37.:53:41.

within it was to end the Tory flagship, actually Labour supported

:53:42.:53:45.

the too, the triple lock on PEPses after 2020, that is going to rise,

:53:46.:53:48.

it is a tough one for politicians, but they do need the money. They do,

:53:49.:53:53.

and the likes of Ros Altman have been calling for the triple lock to

:53:54.:53:57.

be ended for sometime. A couple of months ago she insisted it had been

:53:58.:54:01.

on the table and had been discussed but it is also a kind of - it is one

:54:02.:54:06.

of those issues, it is almost untouchable. It is the grey vote...

:54:07.:54:10.

And they all vote Exactly. It is the centre-piece of what David Cameron,

:54:11.:54:14.

particularly made as his kind of centre-piece, the protection of the

:54:15.:54:17.

pension. But if you look at the economics, if you look at the

:54:18.:54:22.

figures, and nobody is actually guaranteed it beyond 2020, it does

:54:23.:54:27.

start to not make economic sense. Politician lbs pleased by that, it

:54:28.:54:31.

gives them political cover, figures, ammo. But Labour is in a position

:54:32.:54:36.

now to objecting to any cuts to this triple lock and we might have the

:54:37.:54:39.

Tories who abeen done it. That would be a strange set of affairs. It

:54:40.:54:43.

makes it moer difficult for the Tories, if Labour is going to hold

:54:44.:54:48.

on to it. Article 50, triggered Wednesday, negotiations will begin

:54:49.:54:51.

sometime thereafter. It's an historic moment, is it not It is and

:54:52.:54:55.

what the Prime Minister said to the Cabinet this week. She said this is

:54:56.:54:58.

an historic record. I suspect because of that, she is going to put

:54:59.:55:02.

a lot of effort into the phraseology, the crafting, the

:55:03.:55:04.

wording of this lemplt it is not going to be a two paragraph, you

:55:05.:55:08.

know, bye-bye, it'll have real significance and she'll work on this

:55:09.:55:11.

this record. An historic moment in our nation's history? Yes, it is

:55:12.:55:16.

going to be an historic moment and also what is going to happen next in

:55:17.:55:20.

terms of the union. That's the other question mark, what happens with

:55:21.:55:24.

Scotland? They'll resume their talks about a second independence

:55:25.:55:27.

referendum on Tuesday, so it'll have lots of ramifications in lots of

:55:28.:55:32.

quarters. It will indeed. It gives us plenty to talk about.

:55:33.:55:35.

Let's return to the terorrist attack in London and speak

:55:36.:55:37.

to our political correspondent, Eleanor Garnier, who's outside

:55:38.:55:39.

the gates to Parliament where Khalid Masood murdered PC

:55:40.:55:41.

The gates are just right behind her. Eleanor, the saisant Met

:55:42.:55:55.

Commissioner talked this morning about the chaining tone of security

:55:56.:55:57.

outside Parliament. Is there any sign of that yet? Well there are

:55:58.:56:02.

definitely more police officers wandering around Westminster but I

:56:03.:56:06.

think that's happening across London and the rest of the country, too.

:56:07.:56:10.

There is, of course going to be a review of security here at

:56:11.:56:13.

Westminster and that's to be expected after an attack like this

:56:14.:56:17.

One minister hog got caught up in the attack said in temples access to

:56:18.:56:21.

-- one minister who got caught up in the attack said in terms of access

:56:22.:56:25.

to Parliament things would needs to change and I think there are issues

:56:26.:56:28.

about whether or not there are enough armed officers and military

:56:29.:56:33.

on the state but the message has been clear from police chief, the

:56:34.:56:39.

way the security set-up st allowed to design access of Parliament to

:56:40.:56:45.

the heart of democracy, with security measures that are

:56:46.:56:47.

proportionate and also not too intrusive as well. So, yes, there

:56:48.:56:51.

are people who are questioning what is going on and maybe have some

:56:52.:56:55.

concerns but MPs over the last day or so are saying they don't want

:56:56.:56:59.

this area turned into some sort of for the rows with armed guards on

:57:00.:57:05.

every single entrain exit. Does that mean, then, Eleanor as you stland

:57:06.:57:11.

this morning, the guards on the gate, the Carriage Gate into the

:57:12.:57:15.

yard where all the terrible action took place on Wednesday, are the

:57:16.:57:18.

police there still unarmed, the ones on the gate. We know there are armed

:57:19.:57:25.

ones behind them, further n the perimeter defence system, but are

:57:26.:57:29.

they still unarmed in the gate? I have seen armed officers walking

:57:30.:57:32.

past the gates here, not just at this entrance but down the other end

:57:33.:57:39.

too, but more the visitors' entrance and the entrance that journalists

:57:40.:57:42.

can use and MPs and peers. I was here for a couple of hours this

:57:43.:57:48.

morning and I saw quite a few armed officers walking past Carriage Gate.

:57:49.:57:52.

As you say there are officers on the inside as well but also officers hop

:57:53.:57:58.

aren't armed as well. You were covering these events this week, I

:57:59.:58:03.

see behind you, the traffic and tourists and some of them on the

:58:04.:58:06.

green but, there on Parliament Square. It looks like we are getting

:58:07.:58:10.

back to normal here now, is that fair? That's definitely fair,

:58:11.:58:14.

Andrew. Remember, this attack happened not just two days ago, this

:58:15.:58:20.

area I'm standing in was a crime scene 24 hours ago, there were

:58:21.:58:23.

forensics crawling over the cobbles behind me. You almost wouldn't know

:58:24.:58:27.

what had happened on Wednesday, were it not for flags flying at half-mast

:58:28.:58:32.

and flowers that are now being laid in spots around wrems. I've walked

:58:33.:58:38.

through the Palace and the police and the staff that you pass, I think

:58:39.:58:44.

that eye contact, the smile is being held a second longer. Eleanor thank

:58:45.:58:50.

you very much for everything this week.

:58:51.:58:51.

The One O'Clock news is starting over on BBC One now.

:58:52.:58:55.

I'll be back on Sunday with the Sunday Politics, do join me then.

:58:56.:58:59.

Andrew Neil with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Paul Waugh from the Huffington Post and Caroline Wheeler from the Sunday Express join him throughout the programme.

They speak to Birmingham MP Shabana Mahmood, where a number of police raids have taken place in connection with the London terror attack, and get the thoughts of former senior police officer and Liberal Democrat peer Brian Paddick and Conservative MP and former soldier Johnny Mercer about whether further counter-terrorism measures are needed.


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