23/03/2017 Daily Politics


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This is the scene at Westminster this afternoon.


The heart of London, usually alive with people, remains


in lockdown after yesterday's deadly terror attack.


Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.


We'll be dedicating the whole programme to yesterday's terror


attack in which three people were killed and at


least 40 others injured, some of them critically.


The attacker was also shot and killed by armed police.


Flags are flying at half mast and a one minute's silence has been


observed in the House of Commons and around Whitehall.


Otherwise, Parliamentary business has resumed as normal this morning.


The Prime Minister Theresa May has made a statement


She told MPs, "We will never waver in the face of terrorism."


She also confirmed that the suspect in the attack was British born,


had previously been investigated by MI5, but as a peripheral figure,


and was "not part of the current intelligence picture."


Two of the victims have been named as Police Constable Keith


PC Palmer died after being stabbed outside the Houses of Parliament.


Mrs Frade, a college worker, died after being struck


She was on her way to pick up her two


Armed police have carried out raids at addresses in Birmingham and


London. Scotland Yard says eight people have been arrested.


With us for the whole of the programme today


are the former Conservative party leader Iain Duncan Smith and Shadow


Emily, where were you when this was unfolding? I had just come down the


escalator and I was at the bottom part of the square, where the


shooting took place. I heard the shooting and I saw lights flashing


as the shooting happened. It was obviously magnified, the sound was


magnified because we were in the corridor. People turned and were


running back towards me. The police started saying we should go in the


opposite direction. I went to portcullis house. The more modern


building, across the road from Big Ben? You go across the road. I went


up the escalator into a big atrium. There were a lot of people there. I


started to worry about that. I also thought there was a shot outside, so


I thought somebody might be shooting outside and somebody in the


building, coming down the back. I stood behind a pillar, I was with a


young MP, who was very jittery and have lost one of her friends. We


found him, and had a moment of laughter. I don't get on with him


very well, I said I was pleased to see him and he said he didn't think


he would hear me say that. We decided the best thing to do was not


to stay there, because if there was a gunman it would be best for people


to scatter. We barricaded us into an office, in Portcullis House. That


was locked down as well? Then I went to my office to be with my staff.


Iain Duncan Smith, what were you doing? I had just come across the


road, the division was on and I was coming to see somebody at lunch. The


gates, when a division is on, were open. I went straight through. The


same gate the attacker came through? Yes, I literally walked past a


police officer, went straight past him at the gate. He said, quick, go


in that way, it is quicker. I went down and got into the division


lobby, out the other side. I was going up the corridor, there was


bustling chaos all of a sudden, something was going on. It turned


out the Prime Minister had been rushed away out the back of the


lobby. I didn't think much about it and headed to the tearoom and my


office. We didn't know much about what was going on. Suddenly I saw


the sitting was suspended. I was going to get notes because I was


going to take part in the debate. Sitting was suspended, I thought,


what the hell is going on? The speakers do not work very well, I


could not work it out. Then suddenly was banging on doors, get out, they


cleared everybody into the central lobby. There are no windows there?


That was the idea. Eventually, nobody knew what was happening and


we shuffled through the Westminster Hall. The oldest part? Exactly, it


is pretty cold, but there we were. And we stood there until just before


eight o'clock. You were in Parliament when this was going on? I


spent quite a few hours in the same part of parliament as Iain Duncan


Smith. Where Emily was standing, the edge of Portcullis House, I had just


left. The division Bell had gone, I was with a friend, we walked through


the bottom of the stairs, where the stabbing and shooting took place. We


heard the gunshots. For a moment, I didn't know what it was. Despite the


fact we had been told something like this would happen, it was still a


shock. The gunshots were still behind us, back in the square. We


saw armoured police running towards the danger, telling us to run away


from it. Which we did. They, of course, ran straight to the scene of


where Keith Palmer, the police officer, had lost his life been


stabbed. We were either end of the corridor? Yes. These are people we


see on a daily basis, people we say hello to. The armed police ushered


us in, there were scores of people, hundreds, by the time we got to the


Central lobby. Parliamentarians, old, young, schoolchildren.


Everybody was locked down. The guards with the big rifles, running


through. They did not know at that point whether somebody was loose,


armed, in the building. As Iain Duncan Smith said, they didn't want


us near any class because of the fear of an explosion. We stayed


there, moved to the Central Lobby and five hours later the evacuation


started. Earlier this morning,


the Prime Minister Theresa May gave Mr Speaker, yesterday an act of


terrorism tried to silence our democracy. But today we meet as


normal, as generations have done before us, and as future generations


will continue to do, to deliver a simple message. We are not afraid.


Our resolve will never waver in the face of terrorism. We meet here, in


the oldest of all parliaments, because we know that democracy and


the values it entails will always prevail. Those values, free speech,


liberty, human rights and the rule of law, are embodied here in this


place. But they are shared by free people around the world. A terrorist


came to the place where people of all nationalities and cultures


gathered to celebrate what it means to be free. He took out his rage


indiscriminately, against innocent men, women and children. Mr Speaker,


this was an attack on free people everywhere. And a half of the


British people, I would like to thank our friends and allies around


the world who have made it clear that they stand with us at this


time. What happened on the streets of Westminster yesterday afternoon


second -- sickened us all. At the moment, while there is an


investigation, there are limits on what I can say. But let me set out


what I can tell the house. At approximately 2:40pm yesterday, a


single attacker drove his vehicle at speed into innocent pedestrians


crossing Westminster Bridge, killing two people and injuring around 40


more. In addition to 12 Britons admitted to hospital, we know that


the victims include three French children, two Romanians, four South


Koreans, one German, one Pole, one Irish, one Chinese, one Italian, one


American and two Greeks. We are in close contact with the governments


of the countries affected. The injured also included three police


officers, who were returning from an event to recognise their bravery.


Two of those three remain in a serious condition. Mr Speaker, the


attacker then left the vehicle and approached a police officer at


carriage Gates, attacking that officer with a large knife, before


he was shot dead by an armed police officer. Tragically, as the house


will know, 48-year-old PC Keith Palmer was killed. PC Palmer had


devoted his life to the service of his country. He had been a member of


the Parliamentary and diplomatic protection command for 15 years, and


a soldier in the Royal Artillery before that. He was a father and


husband, killed doing a job he loved. He was every inch a hero and


his actions will never be forgotten. The whole house will join me in


sending our deepest condolences to his family and the families and


friends of all of those that have been killed or injured in


yesterday's awful attacks. I know also that the house will want to


thank all those who acted with such speed and professionalism yesterday


to secure this place and ensure we are able to meet, as we are doing


today. Mr Speaker, at 7:30pm last night, I chaired a meeting with the


emergency committee, Cobra, and will have further meetings and briefings


with security officials today. The threat level to the UK has been set


at a severe, meaning that an attack is highly likely for some time. This


is the second highest threat level. The highest level, critical, means


there is a specific intelligence that an attack is imminent. As there


is no such intelligence, the independent joint terrorism analysis


Centre has decided the threat level will not change in the light of


yesterday's attack. Mr Speaker, the whole country will want to know who


was responsible for this atrocity and the measures that we are taking


to strengthen security, including here in Westminster. A full


counterterrorism investigation is already under way. Hundreds of our


police and security officers have been working through the night to


establish everything possible about this attack, including its


preparation, motivation and whether there were any associates involved


in its planning. While there remain limits on what I can say at this


stage, I can confirm that overnight the police have searched six


addresses and made eight arrests in Birmingham and London. It is still


believed that this attacker acted alone and the police have no reason


to believe there are imminent further attacks on the public. His


identity is known to the police and MI5. When operational considerations


allow, he will be publicly identified. What I can confirm is


that the man was British-born and that, some years ago, he was once


investigated by MI5 in relation to concerns about violent extremism. He


was a peripheral figure. The case is historic. He was not part of the


current intelligence picture. There was no prior intelligence on his


intent or of the plot. Intensive investigations continue. As Acting


Deputy Commissioner confirmed last night, the working assumption is


that the attacker was inspired by Islamist ideology. We know that the


threat from Islamist terrorism is very real. And while the public


should remain utterly vigilant, they should not and will not be cowed by


this threat. As Acting Deputy Commissioner Rowley Cosmic Key, we


stepping up patrols in cities across the country, with more police and


armed police on the streets. Since June 2013, our police, security and


intelligence agencies have successfully disrupted 13 separate


terrorist plots in Britain. Following the 2015 strategic defence


and Security review, we protected the police budgets for


counterterrorism and committed to increase cross government spending


on counterterrorism by 30% in real terms over the course of this


Parliament. Over the next five years, we will invest an extra ?2.5


billion in building our global security and intelligence network,


employing 1900 additional staff at MI5, MI6 and GCHQ, and more than


doubling our global network of counterterrorism experts, working


with priority countries across Europe, the Middle East, Africa and


Asia. Mr Speaker, in terms of security


here at Westminster we should eat clearer first of all that an


attacker attempted to break into Parliament and was shot dead within


20 yards up the gate. If his intention was to gain access to this


building we should be clear he did not succeed. The police heroically


did their job. But as is routine, the police together with the House


parodies are reviewing the security of the Parliamentary estate,


coordinated with Cabinet Office who have responsibility for security


measures in place around government secure zones. All of us in this


House have a responsibility for the security and safety of our staff and


advice is available for members who needed. Mr Speaker, yesterday we saw


the worst of humanity but we will remember the best. We will remember


the extraordinary efforts to save the life of PC Keith Palmer


including those by my right honourable friend, the Member for


Bournemouth East. And we will remember the exceptional bravery of


our police, security and emergency services who once again ran towards


the danger even as they encouraged others to move the other way. On the


half of the whole country, I want to pay tribute to them for the work


they have been doing to reassure the public, treat the injured and bring


security back to the streets of our capital city. That they have lost


one of their own in yesterday's attack only makes the cameras and


professionalism all the more remarkable. -- calmness. More will


be set in the coming days but the greatest response lies not in the


words of politicians but in the everyday actions of ordinary people.


For beyond these halls today in scenes repeated in towns and cities


across the country millions of people are going about their days


and getting on with their lives. The streets are as busy as ever, the


offices of all, the copy shops and cafes bustling. As I speak millions


will be boarding trains and planes to go to London to see for


themselves the greatest city on earth. It is in these actions


millions of acts of normality that we find the best response to


terrorism. A response that denies our enemies their victory, that


refuses to let them win. That shows the bill never given. In response


that driven by Doug Sainsbury that drove a husband and father to put


himself between us and our attacker and to pay the ultimate price. A


response that says men and women who propagate this had an evil, you will


not defeat us. Let this be the message from this House and nation


today, our values will prevail and I commend this statement to the House.


Order, order. Colleagues, I am biased that we have enjoined today


by French Foreign Minister who is accompanied by a number of his


colleagues and also by the deputy Foreign Secretary the right


honourable gentleman the Member for Rutland and Melton so we appreciate


your presence and you're very fitting display of solidarity with


us. Speaker John Bercow responding


to the Prime Minister's Theresa May. And he acknowledged the presence of


the French Foreign Minister in the Commons this morning.


And we'll hear the response from Jeremy Corbyn


We're joined now by our Political Editor Laura Kuenssberg.


The Prime Minister told us the attacker was British-born, he had


been on a sort of MI5 watchlist some time ago wasn't part now of any


current intelligence investigations and we are also learning more about


what happened yesterday. We are and in the last 20 minutes I was told it


was not one of the armed guards in the Palace of Westminster who would


be there as part of routine security who shot the attacker, I understand


in fact it was one of the bodyguards of the Defence Secretary Michael


Fallon. The crucial difference above that is that of course those


bodyguards, the close protection officers are only in the Palace of


Westminster when those ministers are actually there. So as I understand,


those events in Palace Yard, we have seen the pictures of where the


attacker was stopped in his tracks, but is a part of Westminster that


ministers sweep in and out of in armed cars with their own security


detail, it is as I understand, a member of one of those teams who


stop the attack are getting any further and getting closer into the


heart of Westminster for there were hundreds of people. That is a


crucial difference, it hasn't been officially confirmed by the


Metropolitan Police yet but we understand that is what happened.


That explains because I was puzzled yesterday, that the attacker was


shot by plainclothed policemen as they were called but it turns out we


think to be the close protection officers of the Defence Secretary


which of course immediately raises the question, it was entirely


fortuitous that they were there at that time. It was a time MPs were


voting and just as MPs around the place rushed towards the House of


Commons division is lobbied to go through ministers from around


Whitehall get into their cars, they rushed down fight all into


Parliament, carry out their duty, voting, and you are absolutely


right, if as we understand it, the person who stop the attacker getting


further, but of course horrifically they might have potentially have


been able to cause more damage and potentially a much greater loss of


life was only stopped as we understand it, by a coincidence of


the time that the tactic place during a vote in the House of


Commons. As I say, important to note, this is not officially been


confirmed by the government or the Metropolitan Police but we


understand that BBC news that is the case and it seems potentially, it is


a coincidence that the loss of life was as small as it was although of


course for the people involved, events as great as they could


possibly be. Is there a suggestion he was able to get through the gates


because of the coincidence, he had smashed his car, he had run round...


During a vote, I think you've already said, the gates are open to


allow ministers to go in and out but even at times when they vote isn't


taking place against two open every now and again and there are


policemen on the front and everyone says hello as they go past but I


think in the coming days and of course the focus is on the


investigation, the current security arrangements, of course, that is


what is in peoples's minds and the Prime Minister was extremely careful


and I was in the chamber and clearly from all sides of the House was


given very robust support in the tone that she struck, calling for


unity and resolve other than today at this stage looking to find fault.


But I do think in the coming days there will be a lot of discussion


about whether or not the security inside the Commons is really as it


should be. As we've been remarking it is impossible even to imagine,


it's not even 24 hours since this all started but it has obvious been


the case that once you are inside Westminster, it feels like an


extremely safe place. Very difficult to get in, we all what past dozens


of armed officers all the time but once you're in, it has always been


very much regarded as a place of safety, that's one of the wonderful


things about it for politicians and members of the public who can come


in and walk around and spot a government minister but as details


of this become crystal clear, we are only starting to piece things


together, there will be very real concerns raised about security


inside the Palace of Westminster and having been part of the lockdown


yesterday the staff in Parliament were trying their absolute best to


keep everybody safe. But there was a lot of shouting, especially in the


early moments, quite a chaotic atmosphere and people didn't


necessarily know for they were meant to be going or what to do. I was


part of a group of people, we were moved around if you times to parts


of the parliamentary estate, I know MPs work unhappy, some of them about


being kept in the chamber, their burglaries in case it was a chemical


attack, people had to stay in the chamber, MPs and peers at the other


end would not necessarily happy about that at all. It's a huge


relief or escape that this terrorist was not armed in the wake that


terrorists at the Bataclan or Charlie Hebdo were organised or


Brussels. I think we are going to leave it there because we have a lot


to talk about but you have given us quite a dramatic element Laura, so


thank you. We will talk to the security minister shortly.


Now, as we heard, addresses in London and Birmingham


Our correspondent Phil Mackie is in Birmingham and we


Can you bring us up to date with what's happening? We know for


arrests were made in Birmingham, three of them in the flats here,


flats above this restaurant and around 11 o'clock last night armed


forces came and sealed off the road, you can here the traffic in the


background, a busy route into Birmingham, they sealed it off, came


in here, shops and restaurants which were still quite busy at 11pm last


night, everyone was kept on lockdown for two hours and three men were


seen being taken away. In the small hours, a little bit later, boxes of


evidence were taken out. There is still a lot of activity going on


here, into the afternoon, we haven't had confirmation that these arrests


were linked to what happened in Westminster but it's got to be more


than a coincidence and all enquiries are being referred to Scotland Yard.


What's the atmosphere like in the area for you are because of Busby of


concern and worrying to the local community there as well? It's one of


those strange places in Birmingham, that way across the road is one of


the richest parts of the city, Edgbaston, millionaires Row, this


side, just about in Ladywood, just about the poorest area of Birmingham


and one of the three poorest districts in the country, a real


transient population, people from all across the world and they don't


necessarily know each other. We spoke to neighbours who solve what


happened last night, clearly frightened by armed officers at the


door but they can't really see a great about who was in there and


what they might have been up to. I can tell you actually now there are


probably about ten times as many journalists as members of the public


and there are one or two annoyed businesspeople, the restaurant


owners who would quite like to get open and camphor obvious reasons,


journalists from all over the world gathered here because really is this


investigation on falls this is probably the only location in the


country we can see anything happen then. Thank you. I can bring you


news the Islamic State terror group has claimed the Westminster attacker


was a soldier of the Islamic State. That's just been released in the


last few minutes. That is the standard format they use when


claiming responsibility for Islamic State attacks. This would be a good


time to bring in the security minister Ben Wallace.


We're joined now by the Security Minister Ben Wallace.


To pick up on the conversation we were having with Laura about what


happened in the Palace of Westminster and new Palace Yard,


shooting, the shooting of the attacker that was done by protection


officers we understand, the Defence Secretary, can you confirm that? I


cannot, we are not going to speculate about an incident, I think


the facts as presented by Mark Rowley, and followed up why the


Prime Minister in her statement is where we are. I learned a long time


ago in my previous life in counterterrorism not to speculate...


It can't be a matter of speculation who shot the attacker. As the


security minister you must know by now. I know what's been going on but


we have to establish... You know who shot the attacker? I am aware of


what went on yesterday to the best of my ability. So it's not


speculation. What we need to do is give space to law enforcement


agencies, to make sure they can verify the facts as witnesses have


made representations about what they saw, piece together the incident and


exploit the intelligence and I think, you know, as you said, it


hasn't been confirmed, talking about who may or may not have actually


shot the attacker, I don't think is how all at this moment. Except it


raises questions about security, security of people who work within


the Palace of Westminster as well as those outside of MPs,


parliamentarians, staff, visitors and tourists to the area. Do you


think it is sufficiently robust, bearing in mind the police officer


who died in the line of duty, Keith Palmer, was an armed as he tried to


apprehend the attacker? I think it's robust, let's not forget the tragic


murder of Keith Palmer happened but he died doing a job alongside armed


officers of protecting that entrance and the assailants didn't get more


than 20 yards into Parliament and he was stopped with lethal force. We


shouldn't forget that. I was listening to Laura Coombes bird's


comment about what was going on inside, and I think we should


remember that the police and work are systematic you cleared a


difficult building to clear. -- Laura Coombes bird. But people with


the untrained eye couldn't see us that we were being moved from an


cleared and two-tiered areas. I understand they were sweeping the


whole of the building but I think it remains this crucial issue, you say


there are armed guards, police officers at the gates which opened


to let ministerial cars in and out, is that the case? I'm not going to


go any further about who actually was involved in the shooting


incident, I think what I can say is that our police forces who police


both outside and inside and the government quarter around part of


Whitehall are many and there are plenty of plans in place that you


don't see but happen every day to try and keep us as safe as possible.


Iain Duncan Smith, are you reassured that the security systems in place


at Westminster are robust enough? Well, he was quite clear in the


sense that he doesn't want to discuss this now, and I understand


that. I think the point being made is legitimate, that we will need to


look at this after the dust has settled, to figure out whether or


not there was sufficient protection at key entrances. For example, at St


Stephen's entrance, there are always go there all the time, because that


is where the public often come. The question will be raised about if


there is an armed officer there. I don't know if this is true or not,


but maybe now is not the time for this. But it will certainly happen,


because a lot of colleagues will ask questions about what was taking


place during the course of the lockdown. The attacker himself, the


Prime Minister described him as peripheral. We could be I -- he


could have been involved in extremes, do you think the security


services and GCHQ have enough resources to tackle all of the


potential suspect that could perform this kind of lone wolf attack? I do.


I ask them that regularly. I asked, and this Government has increased


resources to fight terrorism by 30% over this Parliament. That is a


massive increase. We expanded MI5, MI6 and GCHQ to meet the threat. We


are very alive to asking the agencies whether they have the


support and resources they need. We also have to tackle terrorism within


the bounds of the legal framework. Have to make sure that we always do


things that are proportionate and necessary in order to do it. That


are the guidelines that the intelligence officers followed the


letter, to achieve safety as much as possible. Emily Thornberry, Lord


Carlile has said today that the Government will obviously, in his


words, have to look at the level of staffing in organisations like the


security services and GCHQ. Do agree? I do.


I think it's interesting this man was seen as peripheral. I would be


interested to know when he was identified as being peripheral and


if it was somebody the Home Office knew about when Theresa May was


there, and why it was decided he was peripheral. Obviously, you have to


have priorities. Resources will never be finite, you have to make


decisions about who is peripheral and who isn't. With more resources


you can cast the net further. I agree there will have to investigate


this. Just so the public understand the scale of the effort going on


now... Because of the numbers of people we are talking about? He was


considered peripheral, but he had been checked. There are lots of


character similar to this in communities, I know in my borough,


north-east London, there will be a lot of characters like this on the


margins. The question is, how much resource do you need to follow all


of these people? It is a big question, it is not that we are not


doing anything. The question is, how far are we prepared to go and how


much are we prepared to spend? I used the expression lone wolf, he


was on his own, he plunged his car into pedestrians, killing two of


them, and able to bridge the security into Westminster. We have


just spoken to Phil Mackey, who talked about raids in London and


Birmingham, does that imply it is part of a wider network? Nobody is


100% alone. The attack was clearly perpetrated by one person, but what


we know from looking at France and Germany is that they have either


been radicalised online, and therefore there is an implication


summary has reached out from abroad or at home, or in some events there


was logistical support. I think that is what the leaves are which are


being exploited at the moment by security agencies and police forces


to get to the bottom of that. The initial incident has effectively


closed. It was viewed as a single attacker. I would like to make one


point about intelligence. One thing that is really important to remember


is that we always get into this area, intelligence in retrospect,


I'm afraid, is always right. Every day, intelligence services and


police officers see in front of them segments or scraps of intelligence


and they have to make a judgment, amongst thousands of different


scraps of intelligence, where to put the resource and which defines


intent. There are a lot of people who might talk about things, but who


is going to do something? Not now, and Iain Duncan Smith is right,


there will be a debrief, a review, whatever you want to call it, of the


whole event. That is why we are such good agencies and police forces,


because we learn, if there are mistakes, we learn where we can


improve. It is important to remember that we do not put these people out


here as if they have made some kind of mistake. Intelligence in


retrospect is always viewed as right. At a time, it is a judgment


call and I trust their judgment. And we hear that they are boiling point


all the time? Being armed only with a knife, it


might suggest it may not be a lone wolf, but it would suggest he was


not part of a well-organised network. He did another evil with a


knife, but he could have been armed with more than that? After Paris, in


response to Paris, there was an increase across the United Kingdom


in armed police, increasing their capability. We have also done a


number of investigative intelligence operations, trying to find weapons.


I think we got over 800 weapons in a single one month operation. We have


taken off the streets and invested in armed police to detain that. --


deter. Lets now pause and look back


at yesterday's terrible events Adam Fleming was in an around


Westminster yesterday afternoon and evening,


here's his report. The moment we knew something


was wrong - seriously wrong. On Westminster Bridge,


a car ploughed through tourists including some French students,


killing two people. The vehicle crashed into the fence


that surrounds Parliament. The scene, just inside the gates,


just moments later. The attacker on the ground,


a knife by his side. Meters away, the unarmed officer


who had stopped him getting into Parliament was being treated


by paramedics and a Government minister,


but they couldn't save his life. I am now going to suspend


the sitting of the house. This house is now suspended,


but please wait here. As Parliament froze in terror,


the Prime Minister was sped away There has been a serious


incident within the estate. It seems that a police


officer has been stabbed, that the alleged assailant was shot


by armed police. An air ambulance is currently


attending the scene. Across Parliament, hundreds


were marooned in lockdown. MPs, peers, staff, visitors -


including schoolchildren. Many were escorted across the roads


to Westminster Abbey, welcomed with coffee and a prayer


from the Dean. They emerged hours later,


after telling police The Prime Minister was only a few


feet in front of me when we came A huge member of her security


entourage went down and said something to her, and she said,


"Oh." So I think that's when people


realised there was something We are all able to walk out


of here tonight in darkness because a police officer has


put his life on the line That is a measure of just not


that police officer, but all of the people who have been


involved in this today. Thank you so much to all the police


and security services, really thinking of all of them,


and their colleague who didn't make Just immensely grateful


for all that they do, for all of us, putting their lives


on the line every day. Terrible, terrible day


here in Westminster. Then came responses from those


who run the country and the city. These street of Westminster, home


to the world's oldest Parliament, are ingrained with a spirit


of freedom that echoes in some of the furthest


corners of the globe. My message to those that


want to harm us and destroy our way of life is that you won't succeed,


you won't divide us. Scotland Yard gave information


about the police officer One of those who died today


was a police officer, PC Keith Palmer, a member


of our Parliamentary Keith, aged 48, had 15 years service


and was a husband and father. The authorities' assumption,


that this was a case A new day brought increased


security, as Met officers remembered their fallen colleague


with a minute's silence. Also observed in


the Commons chamber. Questions to the Secretary of State


for International Trade? Later, there is a debate


on next week's agenda, Business almost as usual,


defiance in a very Westminster way. The union flag still flying at


half-mast over the Palace of Westminster. We can now speak to


Gordon Corera, the BBC security correspondent. A moving story, what


are the most significant things we now know about what happened


yesterday? Two things have really come out this morning. First, we had


a statement, purporting to be from so-called Islamic State, saying that


the person who carried out the attack was responding to its call,


and that it was one of its, in its rays, soldiers. That does not


necessarily mean the group itself was in contact with it beforehand,


but it does imply there is some kind of inspiration linked to so-called


Islamic State. I think that is one significant development in the last


30 minutes or so. The other thing is a statement from the Prime Minister,


that this was an individual identified by the authorities, even


though they are not naming him, and was known to MI5, on the periphery


of a previous investigation. It was interesting that the authorities


decided to be proactive and say that early on, even before the name came


out. I think they realise it is something that will come out and


raise questions. If you like, they wanted to get ahead of that and say,


yes, we did know about this individual, but no, we did not know


about his intent to carry out the attack. I picking this up right, is


there a sense that he was on the MI5... Well, let me put it this way,


he was on MI5's radar sometime back, we don't know when, and maybe you


can tell us, but it looks like they concluded, among all of the


priorities and threats that they have to monitor, that he was pretty


far down the list, and therefore he dropped off the radar? Is that how


we see things? Yes, that is one way of putting it. I think a lot of


people come up in counterterrorism investigations. Say there is one


person who they consider is dangerous and plotting, they will


look at all of the associates of that individual. They might decide


some are dangerous, some are not, some they might watch for a while


and then there is no sign of activity, new priorities come up and


they will replace those where there has been no sign of intent. There is


a continuous process of prioritisation by MI5 and the police


of their surveillance resources and investigative resources. It has been


controversial in the past, because some of the July the 7th 2005


attackers had been investigated in a previous inquiry, the year before.


The Woolwich attackers came up in previous investigations. You are


increasingly seeing this, that MI5 have noticed somebody. But it does


not mean they are always going to be followed all the time, the resources


are not there. The figure we had recently from the police is that


there are about 500, or more than 500, live investigations. You are


talking about thousands of people that they are constantly looking at


and trying to work out which ones are the priority. That doesn't mean


people will not question whether something did go wrong, whether


there are lessons to be learned. I think the response you are already


hearing from the authorities is that this was someone who was peripheral,


and therefore did not merit greater surveillance resources at the time


was since. Gordon, thank you very much. That was the BBC security


correspondent. We are joined from Edinburgh by Chris Phillips, who


spent seven years running the National Counterterrorism Security


Office. What analysis do you make of this attacker and its significance?


The most important thing to think of at this moment, and I have to say I


am a little bit disappointed by Laura Kuenssberg there, who is


already, less than 24 hours later, trying to apportion blame. She is


not, she is reporting what she knows. I think the fact we are


trying to make a big thing that there were no police officers with


guns there, I don't think it is appropriate at the moment, because


there were police officers with guns and this guy was stopped from


entering the Houses of Parliament. The important thing to realise is


that this type of attack that we have seen, with somebody driving on


the pavement, could be committed by pretty much anybody in this country.


You would have to have the intention and motivation, but it could be. It


is almost impossible to stop that. I don't think anybody is arguing with


that. We saw what happened in Nice as well. No free society can stop an


individual from deciding to drive their car or truck onto the pavement


and mowing people down indiscriminately. What I would like


to know, given your background, is... Will it be quite difficult for


the security services to establish whether he had a network or not?


Whether he was this loan will for was he part of a wider operation? --


Lone Wolf. He only needed a car and knife, he didn't necessarily need to


be part of a network? Absolutely, that is the big difficulty with this


type of attack. However, the police and security services will be


looking very closely now at his past, who he has been talking to.


That is not aided by the difficulties that they have with


encryption of social media at the moment, which makes the job of the


police and security services in the investigation much more difficult.


But the important thing is to identify if there is people he is


linked to, and what their motivations are, whether they are


likely to do something like this. You know, well we call this a Lone


Wolf attack, it is very unlikely other people will not know. Those


are the people that can stop this, if they had known it was going to


happen, they could have made the phone call. Of course, but they


weren't going to stop him if they were complicit. That is what we need


to find out. One more question on this, just explain the significance,


I assume that it is standard practice that people can be on the


security services radar, and then they don't find something out, they


have to move resources, priorities elsewhere, so that people come in


and out of MI5 and other security services radar?


Absolutely and not only have we got people who have come back from


Warsaw but we have people released from prison is for terrorism


offences and are back in the community and show no signs of being


de-radicalised. Sheer weight of numbers of these people means that


some poor soul has two make a decision, a risk assessment decision


about who is most likely to commit and offence, there is a lot of


others to -- of that goes around that, but actually the resources


will never be enough to follow 4000 people. Thank you for joining us.


Let me go back to my guests, Emily, given what you've heard so far what


are your uppermost thoughts now? Two things, it's right we have to make


decisions about priorities but the net can be wider with greater


resources and I think we need to think about that but the second


thing, policing is most effective when you work with the community and


I think Putin, perhaps looking again at the engagement, the way in which


the government tries to engage with particular communities is not


working very well, I think that's important, and I think police can


only make us safe if we want to work with them. And the intelligence that


we can get from the community is important, good relationships need


to be there, people need to trust the police and we don't see as many


police on the streets any more, we don't see police doing football


matches and setting up boxing tournament and so on because


resources have been stripped. -- put in. That undermine security in a


software. Perfectly reasonable points to me, we don't know if any


of that is relevant to this attack. No, of course not but I'm just


saying... But it's a general point you are making. Iain Duncan Smith,


your thoughts? I think it's right that now is not the time to get into


the detail and figure out what went right or wrong or didn't happen but


I do think, the main point I take away is something a member of my


family is said to me over the last 24 hours, I have a daughter working


in Vancouver and they understand genuinely what the threat is, the


Public understands it's in a New World, the threat will go on and on


and we have a real problem defending ourselves against it and that is


going to be the big issue over time, the recognition first of all that a


low-key man in a car with a knife can create mayhem tells you that


this problem is a very large scale problem and whilst we want to make


sure we have the right resources we need to understand what that takes,


we are not a police state, we are a Free State and we believe in peoples


rights and freedoms in the balance between that is always a difficult


job for a government and I understand, other countries as you


know, you're much more towards the heavy-handed policing with


paramilitary police, we've never done that. For us, I think we get


the balance right and that's the key issue. Islamic State have made a


further statement and they said this attack which they are now taking


responsibility for was in response to their calls to targets are dozens


of the coalition forces in the Middle East and it seems these calls


came because the more Islamic State has been under attack in Iraq and


Mosul and also in Raqqa as well, the more they have tried to ignite the


worst in Europe and the United States to carry out attacks. They


are blaming that is part of what happened yesterday as part of that


strategy. Let's get more international response. Iain Duncan


Smith mentioned his daughter in Vancouver.


Leaders around the world have been quick to declare solidarity


with the UK following yesterday's attack in Westminster.


Many took to Twitter to express their condolences.


Here's Ellie with a summary of how the world responded.


Within hours of the attack world leaders have sent messages of


support. Donald Trump tweeted that he'd spoken to Theresa May to offer


his condolences. The victims are in our thoughts and prayers, the City


of London and Her Majesty is government have the Full Sutton port


of the US government in responding to the attack and bringing those to


justice you are responsible. It came a year to the day since the terror


attacks in Brussels, the President of the European Council tweeted that


Europe stood firm with the UK and was ready to help and this morning,


the President of the European Commission gave his reaction. Again


and again, we see this kind of event and I am really admiring the


resilience. This morning, the French Foreign Minister showed he stood


shoulder to shoulder with the British, watching on in Parliament.


Sir, we appreciate your presence and you're very fitting display of


solidarity with us. And in Paris last night this icon of France was


plunged into darkness as a mark of respect. And in Tel Aviv, the City


Hall made this tribute to London. It's emerged that ensured that once


came from 11 different countries, international solidarity has been


offered from far and wide. That's the global reaction to what


happened yesterday. So what are the Government's options


in responding in terms of laws, policing and powers for the Security


Service. The cross-bench peer, Lord Carlile,


was the Government's Independent Reviewer


of Terrorism Legislation until 2011. Welcome to the programme. It's very


early days but do you have any thoughts in your mind is to what


policy prescription could now follow? I don't think we need much


change in the law, the law is robust, it was very carefully


considered by parliament last year and I agree with what Iain Duncan


Smith said yesterday about the quality of our laws and attitude. I


think we may have to look at the work done by the security services,


it is of very high quality, they are often the unsung heroes who protect


us but there is an issue about whether they have sufficient


resources. If somebody comes onto the radar have to make a judgement,


this said earlier the programme, maybe if they had some more money


and people they could hold people on their radar for longer and applied


the proportion of provisions of the investigatory Powers act for longer.


Hasn't it been the case that the intelligence services have had


massive increases in their budgets over the years because of the war on


terror has become not a boot is on the ground job any more, it is an


intelligence fight, and intelligence led fight now and that more


resources could obviously help but it seems to me, the amount of


resources, they could be infinite if you need to cover everybody? If I


may, there are two important points, the attrition on so-called Islamic


State which she mentioned a moment or two ago, is causing Islamic State


to radicalise people, to commit acts as individuals in countries like the


United Kingdom and the resources have to be proportionate to that.


The second thing that has happened is that for us when I started as


independent reviewer of terrorism legislation we were dealing mostly


with IED is, now we are dealing with cars and lorries, are more


ubiquitous threat and we have to equip them with resources to deal


with that threat. The intelligencer this is monitored chatter, that


often helps them, it all to them, they can monitor the movement of


funds and so on because that can often help them as well and we are


pretty good in this country compared to continental Europe on guns but if


the man is not armed with a gun and if he's not part or been ignited by


chatter coming out of Raqqa or somewhere else it's really tough,


one intelligence officer said to me this is a needle in a haystack, a


piece of hay in a haystack? It's right to say perpetrators are mostly


motivated by chatter, two people, if you forgive me, of our sort of age,


Andrew, to believe they would be radicalised by something on a screen


is almost unimaginable but it's true. I think it's worth reflecting


the security services in the United Kingdom and the government, in the


last six months or so have taken well over 50,000 sites of the


Internet and we have to keep up that effort as well. And that requires


resources. Thank you or being with us. MPs gathered in the House of


Commons this morning note a to maintain the appearance of business


as usual and after the prime ministers statement which we heard


earlier the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn offered his response to the


attacks yesterday. What happened yesterday,


within metres of where we sit now, The police are still piecing


together what took place It behoves us all not


to rush to judgment, but to wait for the police


to establish the facts, to stay united in our communities


and not allow fear or the voices Today, we are united by our humanity


and by our democratic values. And by that human


impulse of solidarity. To stand together, in times


of darkness and adversity. Mr Speaker, I express my condolences


to the family and friends of police officer Keith Palmer,


who gave his life yesterday in defence of the public


and of our democracy. And we're joined now


by the Labour MP Liam Byrne, who represents a Birmingham


constituency and who recently wrote a book on counter-extremism


and "winning the battle of ideas". How do you think the government


should respond to this sort of attack? We are moving into the new


face of this conflict, things coming together, about 50% of those


convicted of counter terrorism offences early in the century are


coming out of jail over the next couple of years, you have the risk


of claw-back of foreign fighters, radicalised, battle hardened but you


also have got the change in operational tactics by Isis IB -- as


they are disaggregated, the caliphate is becoming a virtual


caliphate and the messaging from the Middle East at the moment is no


longer come to build utopia in the caliphate, it's changed over the


last three months, sharply focused on this is how you commit a lone


wolf attack, this is the night to buy, the specification of HGV to


acquire, we are into a new phase and therefore our response has to


change. How does it change? Let's look at it from a community point of


view, Emily mentioned about community engagement, you are a MP,


the second city identified as a place where there are convicted


terrorists scum off what would you do? A couple of things, strengthened


the work we continue to do in schools, teachers do a great job but


very often they are not greatly supported by government policies,


for example, academies are able to opt out of delivering a balanced


religious education, that's not necessarily good. We don't have


universal community service, getting kids to mix with each other, the big


front this year is a different kind of approach to social media


companies, at the moment they are still the messaging command and


control structure of choice... And we just heard from Alex Carlile how


much influence they have. Terrorists have the golden hour, two and a half


to three hours to get something down once it goes up but they will often


get 30 to 50% of the messaging through in that time. Right now


companies like Google, Facebook, Apple don't have a team of engineers


figuring out how to solve this problem and frankly we need to get


on top of that and we need to get on top of them because they have not


taken this issue seriously enough. Thank you. Very interesting.


I'll be back this evening on BBC One with This Week


I'll be joined by Counter extremism expert Jonathan Russell,


actor, Simon Callow, commentator Miranda Green,


and journalist Quentin Letts, who watched yesterday's events


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