23/03/2017 Daily Politics


23/03/2017

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn get reaction to the terrorist attack in Westminster. They look at the latest developments in Birmingham and speak to MPs and security experts.


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Transcript


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This is the scene at Westminster this afternoon.

:00:00.:00:09.

The heart of London, usually alive with people, remains

:00:10.:00:11.

in lockdown after yesterday's deadly terror attack.

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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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We'll be dedicating the whole programme to yesterday's terror

:00:55.:01:00.

attack in which three people were killed and at

:01:01.:01:02.

least 40 others injured, some of them critically.

:01:03.:01:04.

The attacker was also shot and killed by armed police.

:01:05.:01:07.

Flags are flying at half mast and a one minute's silence has been

:01:08.:01:10.

observed in the House of Commons and around Whitehall.

:01:11.:01:14.

Otherwise, Parliamentary business has resumed as normal this morning.

:01:15.:01:16.

The Prime Minister Theresa May has made a statement

:01:17.:01:18.

She told MPs, "We will never waver in the face of terrorism."

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She also confirmed that the suspect in the attack was British born,

:01:26.:01:29.

had previously been investigated by MI5, but as a peripheral figure,

:01:30.:01:32.

and was "not part of the current intelligence picture."

:01:33.:01:38.

Two of the victims have been named as Police Constable Keith

:01:39.:01:41.

PC Palmer died after being stabbed outside the Houses of Parliament.

:01:42.:01:49.

Mrs Frade, a college worker, died after being struck

:01:50.:01:52.

She was on her way to pick up her two

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Armed police have carried out raids at addresses in Birmingham and

:02:02.:02:14.

London. Scotland Yard says eight people have been arrested.

:02:15.:02:17.

With us for the whole of the programme today

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are the former Conservative party leader Iain Duncan Smith and Shadow

:02:20.:02:22.

Emily, where were you when this was unfolding? I had just come down the

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escalator and I was at the bottom part of the square, where the

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shooting took place. I heard the shooting and I saw lights flashing

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as the shooting happened. It was obviously magnified, the sound was

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magnified because we were in the corridor. People turned and were

:02:46.:02:47.

running back towards me. The police started saying we should go in the

:02:48.:02:52.

opposite direction. I went to portcullis house. The more modern

:02:53.:02:56.

building, across the road from Big Ben? You go across the road. I went

:02:57.:03:03.

up the escalator into a big atrium. There were a lot of people there. I

:03:04.:03:06.

started to worry about that. I also thought there was a shot outside, so

:03:07.:03:12.

I thought somebody might be shooting outside and somebody in the

:03:13.:03:19.

building, coming down the back. I stood behind a pillar, I was with a

:03:20.:03:25.

young MP, who was very jittery and have lost one of her friends. We

:03:26.:03:31.

found him, and had a moment of laughter. I don't get on with him

:03:32.:03:34.

very well, I said I was pleased to see him and he said he didn't think

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he would hear me say that. We decided the best thing to do was not

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to stay there, because if there was a gunman it would be best for people

:03:44.:03:51.

to scatter. We barricaded us into an office, in Portcullis House. That

:03:52.:03:54.

was locked down as well? Then I went to my office to be with my staff.

:03:55.:04:00.

Iain Duncan Smith, what were you doing? I had just come across the

:04:01.:04:04.

road, the division was on and I was coming to see somebody at lunch. The

:04:05.:04:09.

gates, when a division is on, were open. I went straight through. The

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same gate the attacker came through? Yes, I literally walked past a

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police officer, went straight past him at the gate. He said, quick, go

:04:19.:04:23.

in that way, it is quicker. I went down and got into the division

:04:24.:04:27.

lobby, out the other side. I was going up the corridor, there was

:04:28.:04:33.

bustling chaos all of a sudden, something was going on. It turned

:04:34.:04:36.

out the Prime Minister had been rushed away out the back of the

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lobby. I didn't think much about it and headed to the tearoom and my

:04:41.:04:44.

office. We didn't know much about what was going on. Suddenly I saw

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the sitting was suspended. I was going to get notes because I was

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going to take part in the debate. Sitting was suspended, I thought,

:04:53.:04:56.

what the hell is going on? The speakers do not work very well, I

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could not work it out. Then suddenly was banging on doors, get out, they

:05:01.:05:04.

cleared everybody into the central lobby. There are no windows there?

:05:05.:05:10.

That was the idea. Eventually, nobody knew what was happening and

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we shuffled through the Westminster Hall. The oldest part? Exactly, it

:05:14.:05:21.

is pretty cold, but there we were. And we stood there until just before

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eight o'clock. You were in Parliament when this was going on? I

:05:27.:05:30.

spent quite a few hours in the same part of parliament as Iain Duncan

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Smith. Where Emily was standing, the edge of Portcullis House, I had just

:05:35.:05:38.

left. The division Bell had gone, I was with a friend, we walked through

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the bottom of the stairs, where the stabbing and shooting took place. We

:05:46.:05:49.

heard the gunshots. For a moment, I didn't know what it was. Despite the

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fact we had been told something like this would happen, it was still a

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shock. The gunshots were still behind us, back in the square. We

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saw armoured police running towards the danger, telling us to run away

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from it. Which we did. They, of course, ran straight to the scene of

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where Keith Palmer, the police officer, had lost his life been

:06:09.:06:13.

stabbed. We were either end of the corridor? Yes. These are people we

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see on a daily basis, people we say hello to. The armed police ushered

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us in, there were scores of people, hundreds, by the time we got to the

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Central lobby. Parliamentarians, old, young, schoolchildren.

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Everybody was locked down. The guards with the big rifles, running

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through. They did not know at that point whether somebody was loose,

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armed, in the building. As Iain Duncan Smith said, they didn't want

:06:41.:06:43.

us near any class because of the fear of an explosion. We stayed

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there, moved to the Central Lobby and five hours later the evacuation

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started. Earlier this morning,

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the Prime Minister Theresa May gave Mr Speaker, yesterday an act of

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terrorism tried to silence our democracy. But today we meet as

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normal, as generations have done before us, and as future generations

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will continue to do, to deliver a simple message. We are not afraid.

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Our resolve will never waver in the face of terrorism. We meet here, in

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the oldest of all parliaments, because we know that democracy and

:07:30.:07:34.

the values it entails will always prevail. Those values, free speech,

:07:35.:07:39.

liberty, human rights and the rule of law, are embodied here in this

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place. But they are shared by free people around the world. A terrorist

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came to the place where people of all nationalities and cultures

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gathered to celebrate what it means to be free. He took out his rage

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indiscriminately, against innocent men, women and children. Mr Speaker,

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this was an attack on free people everywhere. And a half of the

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British people, I would like to thank our friends and allies around

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the world who have made it clear that they stand with us at this

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time. What happened on the streets of Westminster yesterday afternoon

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second -- sickened us all. At the moment, while there is an

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investigation, there are limits on what I can say. But let me set out

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what I can tell the house. At approximately 2:40pm yesterday, a

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single attacker drove his vehicle at speed into innocent pedestrians

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crossing Westminster Bridge, killing two people and injuring around 40

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more. In addition to 12 Britons admitted to hospital, we know that

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the victims include three French children, two Romanians, four South

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Koreans, one German, one Pole, one Irish, one Chinese, one Italian, one

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American and two Greeks. We are in close contact with the governments

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of the countries affected. The injured also included three police

:09:25.:09:28.

officers, who were returning from an event to recognise their bravery.

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Two of those three remain in a serious condition. Mr Speaker, the

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attacker then left the vehicle and approached a police officer at

:09:38.:09:40.

carriage Gates, attacking that officer with a large knife, before

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he was shot dead by an armed police officer. Tragically, as the house

:09:46.:09:50.

will know, 48-year-old PC Keith Palmer was killed. PC Palmer had

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devoted his life to the service of his country. He had been a member of

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the Parliamentary and diplomatic protection command for 15 years, and

:10:04.:10:11.

a soldier in the Royal Artillery before that. He was a father and

:10:12.:10:14.

husband, killed doing a job he loved. He was every inch a hero and

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his actions will never be forgotten. The whole house will join me in

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sending our deepest condolences to his family and the families and

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friends of all of those that have been killed or injured in

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yesterday's awful attacks. I know also that the house will want to

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thank all those who acted with such speed and professionalism yesterday

:10:41.:10:43.

to secure this place and ensure we are able to meet, as we are doing

:10:44.:10:49.

today. Mr Speaker, at 7:30pm last night, I chaired a meeting with the

:10:50.:10:54.

emergency committee, Cobra, and will have further meetings and briefings

:10:55.:10:58.

with security officials today. The threat level to the UK has been set

:10:59.:11:02.

at a severe, meaning that an attack is highly likely for some time. This

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is the second highest threat level. The highest level, critical, means

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there is a specific intelligence that an attack is imminent. As there

:11:13.:11:17.

is no such intelligence, the independent joint terrorism analysis

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Centre has decided the threat level will not change in the light of

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yesterday's attack. Mr Speaker, the whole country will want to know who

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was responsible for this atrocity and the measures that we are taking

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to strengthen security, including here in Westminster. A full

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counterterrorism investigation is already under way. Hundreds of our

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police and security officers have been working through the night to

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establish everything possible about this attack, including its

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preparation, motivation and whether there were any associates involved

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in its planning. While there remain limits on what I can say at this

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stage, I can confirm that overnight the police have searched six

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addresses and made eight arrests in Birmingham and London. It is still

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believed that this attacker acted alone and the police have no reason

:12:13.:12:15.

to believe there are imminent further attacks on the public. His

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identity is known to the police and MI5. When operational considerations

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allow, he will be publicly identified. What I can confirm is

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that the man was British-born and that, some years ago, he was once

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investigated by MI5 in relation to concerns about violent extremism. He

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was a peripheral figure. The case is historic. He was not part of the

:12:45.:12:49.

current intelligence picture. There was no prior intelligence on his

:12:50.:12:52.

intent or of the plot. Intensive investigations continue. As Acting

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Deputy Commissioner confirmed last night, the working assumption is

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that the attacker was inspired by Islamist ideology. We know that the

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threat from Islamist terrorism is very real. And while the public

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should remain utterly vigilant, they should not and will not be cowed by

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this threat. As Acting Deputy Commissioner Rowley Cosmic Key, we

:13:29.:13:33.

stepping up patrols in cities across the country, with more police and

:13:34.:13:41.

armed police on the streets. Since June 2013, our police, security and

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intelligence agencies have successfully disrupted 13 separate

:13:46.:13:50.

terrorist plots in Britain. Following the 2015 strategic defence

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and Security review, we protected the police budgets for

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counterterrorism and committed to increase cross government spending

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on counterterrorism by 30% in real terms over the course of this

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Parliament. Over the next five years, we will invest an extra ?2.5

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billion in building our global security and intelligence network,

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employing 1900 additional staff at MI5, MI6 and GCHQ, and more than

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doubling our global network of counterterrorism experts, working

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with priority countries across Europe, the Middle East, Africa and

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Asia. Mr Speaker, in terms of security

:14:26.:14:35.

here at Westminster we should eat clearer first of all that an

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attacker attempted to break into Parliament and was shot dead within

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20 yards up the gate. If his intention was to gain access to this

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building we should be clear he did not succeed. The police heroically

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did their job. But as is routine, the police together with the House

:14:58.:15:01.

parodies are reviewing the security of the Parliamentary estate,

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coordinated with Cabinet Office who have responsibility for security

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measures in place around government secure zones. All of us in this

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House have a responsibility for the security and safety of our staff and

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advice is available for members who needed. Mr Speaker, yesterday we saw

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the worst of humanity but we will remember the best. We will remember

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the extraordinary efforts to save the life of PC Keith Palmer

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including those by my right honourable friend, the Member for

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Bournemouth East. And we will remember the exceptional bravery of

:15:38.:15:42.

our police, security and emergency services who once again ran towards

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the danger even as they encouraged others to move the other way. On the

:15:48.:15:52.

half of the whole country, I want to pay tribute to them for the work

:15:53.:15:56.

they have been doing to reassure the public, treat the injured and bring

:15:57.:16:00.

security back to the streets of our capital city. That they have lost

:16:01.:16:05.

one of their own in yesterday's attack only makes the cameras and

:16:06.:16:08.

professionalism all the more remarkable. -- calmness. More will

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be set in the coming days but the greatest response lies not in the

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words of politicians but in the everyday actions of ordinary people.

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For beyond these halls today in scenes repeated in towns and cities

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across the country millions of people are going about their days

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and getting on with their lives. The streets are as busy as ever, the

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offices of all, the copy shops and cafes bustling. As I speak millions

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will be boarding trains and planes to go to London to see for

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themselves the greatest city on earth. It is in these actions

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millions of acts of normality that we find the best response to

:16:56.:17:01.

terrorism. A response that denies our enemies their victory, that

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refuses to let them win. That shows the bill never given. In response

:17:07.:17:14.

that driven by Doug Sainsbury that drove a husband and father to put

:17:15.:17:18.

himself between us and our attacker and to pay the ultimate price. A

:17:19.:17:27.

response that says men and women who propagate this had an evil, you will

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not defeat us. Let this be the message from this House and nation

:17:35.:17:39.

today, our values will prevail and I commend this statement to the House.

:17:40.:17:47.

Order, order. Colleagues, I am biased that we have enjoined today

:17:48.:17:55.

by French Foreign Minister who is accompanied by a number of his

:17:56.:18:00.

colleagues and also by the deputy Foreign Secretary the right

:18:01.:18:04.

honourable gentleman the Member for Rutland and Melton so we appreciate

:18:05.:18:08.

your presence and you're very fitting display of solidarity with

:18:09.:18:09.

us. Speaker John Bercow responding

:18:10.:18:13.

to the Prime Minister's Theresa May. And he acknowledged the presence of

:18:14.:18:21.

the French Foreign Minister in the Commons this morning.

:18:22.:18:22.

And we'll hear the response from Jeremy Corbyn

:18:23.:18:24.

We're joined now by our Political Editor Laura Kuenssberg.

:18:25.:18:30.

The Prime Minister told us the attacker was British-born, he had

:18:31.:18:35.

been on a sort of MI5 watchlist some time ago wasn't part now of any

:18:36.:18:40.

current intelligence investigations and we are also learning more about

:18:41.:18:45.

what happened yesterday. We are and in the last 20 minutes I was told it

:18:46.:18:48.

was not one of the armed guards in the Palace of Westminster who would

:18:49.:18:52.

be there as part of routine security who shot the attacker, I understand

:18:53.:18:56.

in fact it was one of the bodyguards of the Defence Secretary Michael

:18:57.:19:01.

Fallon. The crucial difference above that is that of course those

:19:02.:19:05.

bodyguards, the close protection officers are only in the Palace of

:19:06.:19:09.

Westminster when those ministers are actually there. So as I understand,

:19:10.:19:18.

those events in Palace Yard, we have seen the pictures of where the

:19:19.:19:20.

attacker was stopped in his tracks, but is a part of Westminster that

:19:21.:19:24.

ministers sweep in and out of in armed cars with their own security

:19:25.:19:30.

detail, it is as I understand, a member of one of those teams who

:19:31.:19:34.

stop the attack are getting any further and getting closer into the

:19:35.:19:38.

heart of Westminster for there were hundreds of people. That is a

:19:39.:19:42.

crucial difference, it hasn't been officially confirmed by the

:19:43.:19:46.

Metropolitan Police yet but we understand that is what happened.

:19:47.:19:50.

That explains because I was puzzled yesterday, that the attacker was

:19:51.:19:54.

shot by plainclothed policemen as they were called but it turns out we

:19:55.:19:59.

think to be the close protection officers of the Defence Secretary

:20:00.:20:01.

which of course immediately raises the question, it was entirely

:20:02.:20:05.

fortuitous that they were there at that time. It was a time MPs were

:20:06.:20:11.

voting and just as MPs around the place rushed towards the House of

:20:12.:20:15.

Commons division is lobbied to go through ministers from around

:20:16.:20:19.

Whitehall get into their cars, they rushed down fight all into

:20:20.:20:22.

Parliament, carry out their duty, voting, and you are absolutely

:20:23.:20:27.

right, if as we understand it, the person who stop the attacker getting

:20:28.:20:32.

further, but of course horrifically they might have potentially have

:20:33.:20:37.

been able to cause more damage and potentially a much greater loss of

:20:38.:20:40.

life was only stopped as we understand it, by a coincidence of

:20:41.:20:45.

the time that the tactic place during a vote in the House of

:20:46.:20:50.

Commons. As I say, important to note, this is not officially been

:20:51.:20:53.

confirmed by the government or the Metropolitan Police but we

:20:54.:20:56.

understand that BBC news that is the case and it seems potentially, it is

:20:57.:21:03.

a coincidence that the loss of life was as small as it was although of

:21:04.:21:07.

course for the people involved, events as great as they could

:21:08.:21:11.

possibly be. Is there a suggestion he was able to get through the gates

:21:12.:21:15.

because of the coincidence, he had smashed his car, he had run round...

:21:16.:21:20.

During a vote, I think you've already said, the gates are open to

:21:21.:21:25.

allow ministers to go in and out but even at times when they vote isn't

:21:26.:21:29.

taking place against two open every now and again and there are

:21:30.:21:33.

policemen on the front and everyone says hello as they go past but I

:21:34.:21:37.

think in the coming days and of course the focus is on the

:21:38.:21:41.

investigation, the current security arrangements, of course, that is

:21:42.:21:46.

what is in peoples's minds and the Prime Minister was extremely careful

:21:47.:21:49.

and I was in the chamber and clearly from all sides of the House was

:21:50.:21:54.

given very robust support in the tone that she struck, calling for

:21:55.:21:58.

unity and resolve other than today at this stage looking to find fault.

:21:59.:22:03.

But I do think in the coming days there will be a lot of discussion

:22:04.:22:06.

about whether or not the security inside the Commons is really as it

:22:07.:22:14.

should be. As we've been remarking it is impossible even to imagine,

:22:15.:22:18.

it's not even 24 hours since this all started but it has obvious been

:22:19.:22:24.

the case that once you are inside Westminster, it feels like an

:22:25.:22:28.

extremely safe place. Very difficult to get in, we all what past dozens

:22:29.:22:32.

of armed officers all the time but once you're in, it has always been

:22:33.:22:36.

very much regarded as a place of safety, that's one of the wonderful

:22:37.:22:39.

things about it for politicians and members of the public who can come

:22:40.:22:45.

in and walk around and spot a government minister but as details

:22:46.:22:49.

of this become crystal clear, we are only starting to piece things

:22:50.:22:53.

together, there will be very real concerns raised about security

:22:54.:22:56.

inside the Palace of Westminster and having been part of the lockdown

:22:57.:22:59.

yesterday the staff in Parliament were trying their absolute best to

:23:00.:23:04.

keep everybody safe. But there was a lot of shouting, especially in the

:23:05.:23:11.

early moments, quite a chaotic atmosphere and people didn't

:23:12.:23:13.

necessarily know for they were meant to be going or what to do. I was

:23:14.:23:18.

part of a group of people, we were moved around if you times to parts

:23:19.:23:24.

of the parliamentary estate, I know MPs work unhappy, some of them about

:23:25.:23:30.

being kept in the chamber, their burglaries in case it was a chemical

:23:31.:23:35.

attack, people had to stay in the chamber, MPs and peers at the other

:23:36.:23:38.

end would not necessarily happy about that at all. It's a huge

:23:39.:23:45.

relief or escape that this terrorist was not armed in the wake that

:23:46.:23:50.

terrorists at the Bataclan or Charlie Hebdo were organised or

:23:51.:23:54.

Brussels. I think we are going to leave it there because we have a lot

:23:55.:23:59.

to talk about but you have given us quite a dramatic element Laura, so

:24:00.:24:05.

thank you. We will talk to the security minister shortly.

:24:06.:24:09.

Now, as we heard, addresses in London and Birmingham

:24:10.:24:11.

Our correspondent Phil Mackie is in Birmingham and we

:24:12.:24:14.

Can you bring us up to date with what's happening? We know for

:24:15.:24:23.

arrests were made in Birmingham, three of them in the flats here,

:24:24.:24:29.

flats above this restaurant and around 11 o'clock last night armed

:24:30.:24:32.

forces came and sealed off the road, you can here the traffic in the

:24:33.:24:36.

background, a busy route into Birmingham, they sealed it off, came

:24:37.:24:40.

in here, shops and restaurants which were still quite busy at 11pm last

:24:41.:24:45.

night, everyone was kept on lockdown for two hours and three men were

:24:46.:24:49.

seen being taken away. In the small hours, a little bit later, boxes of

:24:50.:24:53.

evidence were taken out. There is still a lot of activity going on

:24:54.:25:00.

here, into the afternoon, we haven't had confirmation that these arrests

:25:01.:25:02.

were linked to what happened in Westminster but it's got to be more

:25:03.:25:06.

than a coincidence and all enquiries are being referred to Scotland Yard.

:25:07.:25:10.

What's the atmosphere like in the area for you are because of Busby of

:25:11.:25:13.

concern and worrying to the local community there as well? It's one of

:25:14.:25:18.

those strange places in Birmingham, that way across the road is one of

:25:19.:25:23.

the richest parts of the city, Edgbaston, millionaires Row, this

:25:24.:25:26.

side, just about in Ladywood, just about the poorest area of Birmingham

:25:27.:25:30.

and one of the three poorest districts in the country, a real

:25:31.:25:35.

transient population, people from all across the world and they don't

:25:36.:25:39.

necessarily know each other. We spoke to neighbours who solve what

:25:40.:25:42.

happened last night, clearly frightened by armed officers at the

:25:43.:25:46.

door but they can't really see a great about who was in there and

:25:47.:25:49.

what they might have been up to. I can tell you actually now there are

:25:50.:25:54.

probably about ten times as many journalists as members of the public

:25:55.:25:58.

and there are one or two annoyed businesspeople, the restaurant

:25:59.:26:01.

owners who would quite like to get open and camphor obvious reasons,

:26:02.:26:04.

journalists from all over the world gathered here because really is this

:26:05.:26:10.

investigation on falls this is probably the only location in the

:26:11.:26:12.

country we can see anything happen then. Thank you. I can bring you

:26:13.:26:18.

news the Islamic State terror group has claimed the Westminster attacker

:26:19.:26:23.

was a soldier of the Islamic State. That's just been released in the

:26:24.:26:26.

last few minutes. That is the standard format they use when

:26:27.:26:33.

claiming responsibility for Islamic State attacks. This would be a good

:26:34.:26:36.

time to bring in the security minister Ben Wallace.

:26:37.:26:40.

We're joined now by the Security Minister Ben Wallace.

:26:41.:26:44.

To pick up on the conversation we were having with Laura about what

:26:45.:26:48.

happened in the Palace of Westminster and new Palace Yard,

:26:49.:26:52.

shooting, the shooting of the attacker that was done by protection

:26:53.:26:58.

officers we understand, the Defence Secretary, can you confirm that? I

:26:59.:27:02.

cannot, we are not going to speculate about an incident, I think

:27:03.:27:06.

the facts as presented by Mark Rowley, and followed up why the

:27:07.:27:10.

Prime Minister in her statement is where we are. I learned a long time

:27:11.:27:15.

ago in my previous life in counterterrorism not to speculate...

:27:16.:27:21.

It can't be a matter of speculation who shot the attacker. As the

:27:22.:27:24.

security minister you must know by now. I know what's been going on but

:27:25.:27:30.

we have to establish... You know who shot the attacker? I am aware of

:27:31.:27:34.

what went on yesterday to the best of my ability. So it's not

:27:35.:27:39.

speculation. What we need to do is give space to law enforcement

:27:40.:27:43.

agencies, to make sure they can verify the facts as witnesses have

:27:44.:27:49.

made representations about what they saw, piece together the incident and

:27:50.:27:52.

exploit the intelligence and I think, you know, as you said, it

:27:53.:27:57.

hasn't been confirmed, talking about who may or may not have actually

:27:58.:28:01.

shot the attacker, I don't think is how all at this moment. Except it

:28:02.:28:06.

raises questions about security, security of people who work within

:28:07.:28:13.

the Palace of Westminster as well as those outside of MPs,

:28:14.:28:15.

parliamentarians, staff, visitors and tourists to the area. Do you

:28:16.:28:20.

think it is sufficiently robust, bearing in mind the police officer

:28:21.:28:24.

who died in the line of duty, Keith Palmer, was an armed as he tried to

:28:25.:28:29.

apprehend the attacker? I think it's robust, let's not forget the tragic

:28:30.:28:34.

murder of Keith Palmer happened but he died doing a job alongside armed

:28:35.:28:41.

officers of protecting that entrance and the assailants didn't get more

:28:42.:28:44.

than 20 yards into Parliament and he was stopped with lethal force. We

:28:45.:28:49.

shouldn't forget that. I was listening to Laura Coombes bird's

:28:50.:28:53.

comment about what was going on inside, and I think we should

:28:54.:29:01.

remember that the police and work are systematic you cleared a

:29:02.:29:06.

difficult building to clear. -- Laura Coombes bird. But people with

:29:07.:29:09.

the untrained eye couldn't see us that we were being moved from an

:29:10.:29:16.

cleared and two-tiered areas. I understand they were sweeping the

:29:17.:29:18.

whole of the building but I think it remains this crucial issue, you say

:29:19.:29:24.

there are armed guards, police officers at the gates which opened

:29:25.:29:28.

to let ministerial cars in and out, is that the case? I'm not going to

:29:29.:29:32.

go any further about who actually was involved in the shooting

:29:33.:29:36.

incident, I think what I can say is that our police forces who police

:29:37.:29:40.

both outside and inside and the government quarter around part of

:29:41.:29:44.

Whitehall are many and there are plenty of plans in place that you

:29:45.:29:49.

don't see but happen every day to try and keep us as safe as possible.

:29:50.:29:54.

Iain Duncan Smith, are you reassured that the security systems in place

:29:55.:30:01.

at Westminster are robust enough? Well, he was quite clear in the

:30:02.:30:05.

sense that he doesn't want to discuss this now, and I understand

:30:06.:30:07.

that. I think the point being made is legitimate, that we will need to

:30:08.:30:12.

look at this after the dust has settled, to figure out whether or

:30:13.:30:16.

not there was sufficient protection at key entrances. For example, at St

:30:17.:30:24.

Stephen's entrance, there are always go there all the time, because that

:30:25.:30:28.

is where the public often come. The question will be raised about if

:30:29.:30:31.

there is an armed officer there. I don't know if this is true or not,

:30:32.:30:34.

but maybe now is not the time for this. But it will certainly happen,

:30:35.:30:39.

because a lot of colleagues will ask questions about what was taking

:30:40.:30:42.

place during the course of the lockdown. The attacker himself, the

:30:43.:30:45.

Prime Minister described him as peripheral. We could be I -- he

:30:46.:30:56.

could have been involved in extremes, do you think the security

:30:57.:30:59.

services and GCHQ have enough resources to tackle all of the

:31:00.:31:03.

potential suspect that could perform this kind of lone wolf attack? I do.

:31:04.:31:10.

I ask them that regularly. I asked, and this Government has increased

:31:11.:31:16.

resources to fight terrorism by 30% over this Parliament. That is a

:31:17.:31:23.

massive increase. We expanded MI5, MI6 and GCHQ to meet the threat. We

:31:24.:31:27.

are very alive to asking the agencies whether they have the

:31:28.:31:33.

support and resources they need. We also have to tackle terrorism within

:31:34.:31:37.

the bounds of the legal framework. Have to make sure that we always do

:31:38.:31:40.

things that are proportionate and necessary in order to do it. That

:31:41.:31:46.

are the guidelines that the intelligence officers followed the

:31:47.:31:51.

letter, to achieve safety as much as possible. Emily Thornberry, Lord

:31:52.:31:56.

Carlile has said today that the Government will obviously, in his

:31:57.:31:59.

words, have to look at the level of staffing in organisations like the

:32:00.:32:03.

security services and GCHQ. Do agree? I do.

:32:04.:32:07.

I think it's interesting this man was seen as peripheral. I would be

:32:08.:32:13.

interested to know when he was identified as being peripheral and

:32:14.:32:16.

if it was somebody the Home Office knew about when Theresa May was

:32:17.:32:21.

there, and why it was decided he was peripheral. Obviously, you have to

:32:22.:32:24.

have priorities. Resources will never be finite, you have to make

:32:25.:32:30.

decisions about who is peripheral and who isn't. With more resources

:32:31.:32:38.

you can cast the net further. I agree there will have to investigate

:32:39.:32:42.

this. Just so the public understand the scale of the effort going on

:32:43.:32:46.

now... Because of the numbers of people we are talking about? He was

:32:47.:32:50.

considered peripheral, but he had been checked. There are lots of

:32:51.:32:53.

character similar to this in communities, I know in my borough,

:32:54.:32:57.

north-east London, there will be a lot of characters like this on the

:32:58.:33:01.

margins. The question is, how much resource do you need to follow all

:33:02.:33:05.

of these people? It is a big question, it is not that we are not

:33:06.:33:09.

doing anything. The question is, how far are we prepared to go and how

:33:10.:33:15.

much are we prepared to spend? I used the expression lone wolf, he

:33:16.:33:19.

was on his own, he plunged his car into pedestrians, killing two of

:33:20.:33:23.

them, and able to bridge the security into Westminster. We have

:33:24.:33:28.

just spoken to Phil Mackey, who talked about raids in London and

:33:29.:33:31.

Birmingham, does that imply it is part of a wider network? Nobody is

:33:32.:33:38.

100% alone. The attack was clearly perpetrated by one person, but what

:33:39.:33:41.

we know from looking at France and Germany is that they have either

:33:42.:33:45.

been radicalised online, and therefore there is an implication

:33:46.:33:48.

summary has reached out from abroad or at home, or in some events there

:33:49.:33:53.

was logistical support. I think that is what the leaves are which are

:33:54.:33:57.

being exploited at the moment by security agencies and police forces

:33:58.:34:02.

to get to the bottom of that. The initial incident has effectively

:34:03.:34:04.

closed. It was viewed as a single attacker. I would like to make one

:34:05.:34:09.

point about intelligence. One thing that is really important to remember

:34:10.:34:14.

is that we always get into this area, intelligence in retrospect,

:34:15.:34:19.

I'm afraid, is always right. Every day, intelligence services and

:34:20.:34:22.

police officers see in front of them segments or scraps of intelligence

:34:23.:34:26.

and they have to make a judgment, amongst thousands of different

:34:27.:34:30.

scraps of intelligence, where to put the resource and which defines

:34:31.:34:33.

intent. There are a lot of people who might talk about things, but who

:34:34.:34:41.

is going to do something? Not now, and Iain Duncan Smith is right,

:34:42.:34:45.

there will be a debrief, a review, whatever you want to call it, of the

:34:46.:34:50.

whole event. That is why we are such good agencies and police forces,

:34:51.:34:54.

because we learn, if there are mistakes, we learn where we can

:34:55.:34:58.

improve. It is important to remember that we do not put these people out

:34:59.:35:01.

here as if they have made some kind of mistake. Intelligence in

:35:02.:35:04.

retrospect is always viewed as right. At a time, it is a judgment

:35:05.:35:09.

call and I trust their judgment. And we hear that they are boiling point

:35:10.:35:14.

all the time? Being armed only with a knife, it

:35:15.:35:18.

might suggest it may not be a lone wolf, but it would suggest he was

:35:19.:35:21.

not part of a well-organised network. He did another evil with a

:35:22.:35:28.

knife, but he could have been armed with more than that? After Paris, in

:35:29.:35:38.

response to Paris, there was an increase across the United Kingdom

:35:39.:35:43.

in armed police, increasing their capability. We have also done a

:35:44.:35:50.

number of investigative intelligence operations, trying to find weapons.

:35:51.:35:55.

I think we got over 800 weapons in a single one month operation. We have

:35:56.:35:58.

taken off the streets and invested in armed police to detain that. --

:35:59.:36:04.

deter. Lets now pause and look back

:36:05.:36:08.

at yesterday's terrible events Adam Fleming was in an around

:36:09.:36:10.

Westminster yesterday afternoon and evening,

:36:11.:36:13.

here's his report. The moment we knew something

:36:14.:36:14.

was wrong - seriously wrong. On Westminster Bridge,

:36:15.:36:18.

a car ploughed through tourists including some French students,

:36:19.:36:27.

killing two people. The vehicle crashed into the fence

:36:28.:36:33.

that surrounds Parliament. The scene, just inside the gates,

:36:34.:36:39.

just moments later. The attacker on the ground,

:36:40.:36:43.

a knife by his side. Meters away, the unarmed officer

:36:44.:36:45.

who had stopped him getting into Parliament was being treated

:36:46.:36:50.

by paramedics and a Government minister,

:36:51.:36:52.

but they couldn't save his life. I am now going to suspend

:36:53.:36:58.

the sitting of the house. This house is now suspended,

:36:59.:37:02.

but please wait here. As Parliament froze in terror,

:37:03.:37:06.

the Prime Minister was sped away There has been a serious

:37:07.:37:09.

incident within the estate. It seems that a police

:37:10.:37:19.

officer has been stabbed, that the alleged assailant was shot

:37:20.:37:21.

by armed police. An air ambulance is currently

:37:22.:37:34.

attending the scene. Across Parliament, hundreds

:37:35.:37:38.

were marooned in lockdown. MPs, peers, staff, visitors -

:37:39.:37:40.

including schoolchildren. Many were escorted across the roads

:37:41.:37:45.

to Westminster Abbey, welcomed with coffee and a prayer

:37:46.:37:48.

from the Dean. They emerged hours later,

:37:49.:37:53.

after telling police The Prime Minister was only a few

:37:54.:37:55.

feet in front of me when we came A huge member of her security

:37:56.:38:01.

entourage went down and said something to her, and she said,

:38:02.:38:06.

"Oh." So I think that's when people

:38:07.:38:07.

realised there was something We are all able to walk out

:38:08.:38:14.

of here tonight in darkness because a police officer has

:38:15.:38:19.

put his life on the line That is a measure of just not

:38:20.:38:21.

that police officer, but all of the people who have been

:38:22.:38:25.

involved in this today. Thank you so much to all the police

:38:26.:38:28.

and security services, really thinking of all of them,

:38:29.:38:33.

and their colleague who didn't make Just immensely grateful

:38:34.:38:36.

for all that they do, for all of us, putting their lives

:38:37.:38:48.

on the line every day. Terrible, terrible day

:38:49.:38:51.

here in Westminster. Then came responses from those

:38:52.:38:53.

who run the country and the city. These street of Westminster, home

:38:54.:38:56.

to the world's oldest Parliament, are ingrained with a spirit

:38:57.:38:58.

of freedom that echoes in some of the furthest

:38:59.:39:00.

corners of the globe. My message to those that

:39:01.:39:06.

want to harm us and destroy our way of life is that you won't succeed,

:39:07.:39:09.

you won't divide us. Scotland Yard gave information

:39:10.:39:12.

about the police officer One of those who died today

:39:13.:39:16.

was a police officer, PC Keith Palmer, a member

:39:17.:39:21.

of our Parliamentary Keith, aged 48, had 15 years service

:39:22.:39:23.

and was a husband and father. The authorities' assumption,

:39:24.:39:30.

that this was a case A new day brought increased

:39:31.:39:36.

security, as Met officers remembered their fallen colleague

:39:37.:39:42.

with a minute's silence. Also observed in

:39:43.:39:48.

the Commons chamber. Questions to the Secretary of State

:39:49.:39:55.

for International Trade? Later, there is a debate

:39:56.:40:04.

on next week's agenda, Business almost as usual,

:40:05.:40:06.

defiance in a very Westminster way. The union flag still flying at

:40:07.:40:22.

half-mast over the Palace of Westminster. We can now speak to

:40:23.:40:30.

Gordon Corera, the BBC security correspondent. A moving story, what

:40:31.:40:33.

are the most significant things we now know about what happened

:40:34.:40:37.

yesterday? Two things have really come out this morning. First, we had

:40:38.:40:43.

a statement, purporting to be from so-called Islamic State, saying that

:40:44.:40:45.

the person who carried out the attack was responding to its call,

:40:46.:40:50.

and that it was one of its, in its rays, soldiers. That does not

:40:51.:40:52.

necessarily mean the group itself was in contact with it beforehand,

:40:53.:41:02.

but it does imply there is some kind of inspiration linked to so-called

:41:03.:41:05.

Islamic State. I think that is one significant development in the last

:41:06.:41:08.

30 minutes or so. The other thing is a statement from the Prime Minister,

:41:09.:41:14.

that this was an individual identified by the authorities, even

:41:15.:41:17.

though they are not naming him, and was known to MI5, on the periphery

:41:18.:41:22.

of a previous investigation. It was interesting that the authorities

:41:23.:41:28.

decided to be proactive and say that early on, even before the name came

:41:29.:41:32.

out. I think they realise it is something that will come out and

:41:33.:41:35.

raise questions. If you like, they wanted to get ahead of that and say,

:41:36.:41:39.

yes, we did know about this individual, but no, we did not know

:41:40.:41:42.

about his intent to carry out the attack. I picking this up right, is

:41:43.:41:50.

there a sense that he was on the MI5... Well, let me put it this way,

:41:51.:41:55.

he was on MI5's radar sometime back, we don't know when, and maybe you

:41:56.:42:00.

can tell us, but it looks like they concluded, among all of the

:42:01.:42:03.

priorities and threats that they have to monitor, that he was pretty

:42:04.:42:08.

far down the list, and therefore he dropped off the radar? Is that how

:42:09.:42:13.

we see things? Yes, that is one way of putting it. I think a lot of

:42:14.:42:17.

people come up in counterterrorism investigations. Say there is one

:42:18.:42:20.

person who they consider is dangerous and plotting, they will

:42:21.:42:23.

look at all of the associates of that individual. They might decide

:42:24.:42:26.

some are dangerous, some are not, some they might watch for a while

:42:27.:42:31.

and then there is no sign of activity, new priorities come up and

:42:32.:42:33.

they will replace those where there has been no sign of intent. There is

:42:34.:42:38.

a continuous process of prioritisation by MI5 and the police

:42:39.:42:42.

of their surveillance resources and investigative resources. It has been

:42:43.:42:45.

controversial in the past, because some of the July the 7th 2005

:42:46.:42:52.

attackers had been investigated in a previous inquiry, the year before.

:42:53.:42:56.

The Woolwich attackers came up in previous investigations. You are

:42:57.:43:00.

increasingly seeing this, that MI5 have noticed somebody. But it does

:43:01.:43:03.

not mean they are always going to be followed all the time, the resources

:43:04.:43:07.

are not there. The figure we had recently from the police is that

:43:08.:43:11.

there are about 500, or more than 500, live investigations. You are

:43:12.:43:14.

talking about thousands of people that they are constantly looking at

:43:15.:43:18.

and trying to work out which ones are the priority. That doesn't mean

:43:19.:43:23.

people will not question whether something did go wrong, whether

:43:24.:43:26.

there are lessons to be learned. I think the response you are already

:43:27.:43:32.

hearing from the authorities is that this was someone who was peripheral,

:43:33.:43:36.

and therefore did not merit greater surveillance resources at the time

:43:37.:43:38.

was since. Gordon, thank you very much. That was the BBC security

:43:39.:43:45.

correspondent. We are joined from Edinburgh by Chris Phillips, who

:43:46.:43:49.

spent seven years running the National Counterterrorism Security

:43:50.:43:55.

Office. What analysis do you make of this attacker and its significance?

:43:56.:44:01.

The most important thing to think of at this moment, and I have to say I

:44:02.:44:04.

am a little bit disappointed by Laura Kuenssberg there, who is

:44:05.:44:12.

already, less than 24 hours later, trying to apportion blame. She is

:44:13.:44:16.

not, she is reporting what she knows. I think the fact we are

:44:17.:44:19.

trying to make a big thing that there were no police officers with

:44:20.:44:22.

guns there, I don't think it is appropriate at the moment, because

:44:23.:44:25.

there were police officers with guns and this guy was stopped from

:44:26.:44:29.

entering the Houses of Parliament. The important thing to realise is

:44:30.:44:33.

that this type of attack that we have seen, with somebody driving on

:44:34.:44:36.

the pavement, could be committed by pretty much anybody in this country.

:44:37.:44:41.

You would have to have the intention and motivation, but it could be. It

:44:42.:44:44.

is almost impossible to stop that. I don't think anybody is arguing with

:44:45.:44:52.

that. We saw what happened in Nice as well. No free society can stop an

:44:53.:44:56.

individual from deciding to drive their car or truck onto the pavement

:44:57.:45:01.

and mowing people down indiscriminately. What I would like

:45:02.:45:07.

to know, given your background, is... Will it be quite difficult for

:45:08.:45:10.

the security services to establish whether he had a network or not?

:45:11.:45:18.

Whether he was this loan will for was he part of a wider operation? --

:45:19.:45:24.

Lone Wolf. He only needed a car and knife, he didn't necessarily need to

:45:25.:45:28.

be part of a network? Absolutely, that is the big difficulty with this

:45:29.:45:33.

type of attack. However, the police and security services will be

:45:34.:45:37.

looking very closely now at his past, who he has been talking to.

:45:38.:45:40.

That is not aided by the difficulties that they have with

:45:41.:45:44.

encryption of social media at the moment, which makes the job of the

:45:45.:45:49.

police and security services in the investigation much more difficult.

:45:50.:45:51.

But the important thing is to identify if there is people he is

:45:52.:45:57.

linked to, and what their motivations are, whether they are

:45:58.:46:00.

likely to do something like this. You know, well we call this a Lone

:46:01.:46:06.

Wolf attack, it is very unlikely other people will not know. Those

:46:07.:46:09.

are the people that can stop this, if they had known it was going to

:46:10.:46:12.

happen, they could have made the phone call. Of course, but they

:46:13.:46:16.

weren't going to stop him if they were complicit. That is what we need

:46:17.:46:21.

to find out. One more question on this, just explain the significance,

:46:22.:46:24.

I assume that it is standard practice that people can be on the

:46:25.:46:31.

security services radar, and then they don't find something out, they

:46:32.:46:35.

have to move resources, priorities elsewhere, so that people come in

:46:36.:46:39.

and out of MI5 and other security services radar?

:46:40.:46:47.

Absolutely and not only have we got people who have come back from

:46:48.:46:54.

Warsaw but we have people released from prison is for terrorism

:46:55.:46:57.

offences and are back in the community and show no signs of being

:46:58.:47:02.

de-radicalised. Sheer weight of numbers of these people means that

:47:03.:47:05.

some poor soul has two make a decision, a risk assessment decision

:47:06.:47:11.

about who is most likely to commit and offence, there is a lot of

:47:12.:47:18.

others to -- of that goes around that, but actually the resources

:47:19.:47:23.

will never be enough to follow 4000 people. Thank you for joining us.

:47:24.:47:30.

Let me go back to my guests, Emily, given what you've heard so far what

:47:31.:47:40.

are your uppermost thoughts now? Two things, it's right we have to make

:47:41.:47:44.

decisions about priorities but the net can be wider with greater

:47:45.:47:47.

resources and I think we need to think about that but the second

:47:48.:47:50.

thing, policing is most effective when you work with the community and

:47:51.:47:55.

I think Putin, perhaps looking again at the engagement, the way in which

:47:56.:48:01.

the government tries to engage with particular communities is not

:48:02.:48:05.

working very well, I think that's important, and I think police can

:48:06.:48:09.

only make us safe if we want to work with them. And the intelligence that

:48:10.:48:15.

we can get from the community is important, good relationships need

:48:16.:48:18.

to be there, people need to trust the police and we don't see as many

:48:19.:48:22.

police on the streets any more, we don't see police doing football

:48:23.:48:25.

matches and setting up boxing tournament and so on because

:48:26.:48:30.

resources have been stripped. -- put in. That undermine security in a

:48:31.:48:35.

software. Perfectly reasonable points to me, we don't know if any

:48:36.:48:39.

of that is relevant to this attack. No, of course not but I'm just

:48:40.:48:42.

saying... But it's a general point you are making. Iain Duncan Smith,

:48:43.:48:49.

your thoughts? I think it's right that now is not the time to get into

:48:50.:48:54.

the detail and figure out what went right or wrong or didn't happen but

:48:55.:48:58.

I do think, the main point I take away is something a member of my

:48:59.:49:03.

family is said to me over the last 24 hours, I have a daughter working

:49:04.:49:10.

in Vancouver and they understand genuinely what the threat is, the

:49:11.:49:15.

Public understands it's in a New World, the threat will go on and on

:49:16.:49:19.

and we have a real problem defending ourselves against it and that is

:49:20.:49:23.

going to be the big issue over time, the recognition first of all that a

:49:24.:49:27.

low-key man in a car with a knife can create mayhem tells you that

:49:28.:49:32.

this problem is a very large scale problem and whilst we want to make

:49:33.:49:36.

sure we have the right resources we need to understand what that takes,

:49:37.:49:41.

we are not a police state, we are a Free State and we believe in peoples

:49:42.:49:45.

rights and freedoms in the balance between that is always a difficult

:49:46.:49:48.

job for a government and I understand, other countries as you

:49:49.:49:52.

know, you're much more towards the heavy-handed policing with

:49:53.:49:56.

paramilitary police, we've never done that. For us, I think we get

:49:57.:50:01.

the balance right and that's the key issue. Islamic State have made a

:50:02.:50:04.

further statement and they said this attack which they are now taking

:50:05.:50:07.

responsibility for was in response to their calls to targets are dozens

:50:08.:50:15.

of the coalition forces in the Middle East and it seems these calls

:50:16.:50:19.

came because the more Islamic State has been under attack in Iraq and

:50:20.:50:24.

Mosul and also in Raqqa as well, the more they have tried to ignite the

:50:25.:50:28.

worst in Europe and the United States to carry out attacks. They

:50:29.:50:33.

are blaming that is part of what happened yesterday as part of that

:50:34.:50:37.

strategy. Let's get more international response. Iain Duncan

:50:38.:50:41.

Smith mentioned his daughter in Vancouver.

:50:42.:50:43.

Leaders around the world have been quick to declare solidarity

:50:44.:50:46.

with the UK following yesterday's attack in Westminster.

:50:47.:50:47.

Many took to Twitter to express their condolences.

:50:48.:50:49.

Here's Ellie with a summary of how the world responded.

:50:50.:50:54.

Within hours of the attack world leaders have sent messages of

:50:55.:51:00.

support. Donald Trump tweeted that he'd spoken to Theresa May to offer

:51:01.:51:06.

his condolences. The victims are in our thoughts and prayers, the City

:51:07.:51:10.

of London and Her Majesty is government have the Full Sutton port

:51:11.:51:13.

of the US government in responding to the attack and bringing those to

:51:14.:51:18.

justice you are responsible. It came a year to the day since the terror

:51:19.:51:23.

attacks in Brussels, the President of the European Council tweeted that

:51:24.:51:26.

Europe stood firm with the UK and was ready to help and this morning,

:51:27.:51:30.

the President of the European Commission gave his reaction. Again

:51:31.:51:43.

and again, we see this kind of event and I am really admiring the

:51:44.:51:49.

resilience. This morning, the French Foreign Minister showed he stood

:51:50.:51:52.

shoulder to shoulder with the British, watching on in Parliament.

:51:53.:51:57.

Sir, we appreciate your presence and you're very fitting display of

:51:58.:52:02.

solidarity with us. And in Paris last night this icon of France was

:52:03.:52:06.

plunged into darkness as a mark of respect. And in Tel Aviv, the City

:52:07.:52:11.

Hall made this tribute to London. It's emerged that ensured that once

:52:12.:52:17.

came from 11 different countries, international solidarity has been

:52:18.:52:19.

offered from far and wide. That's the global reaction to what

:52:20.:52:25.

happened yesterday. So what are the Government's options

:52:26.:52:27.

in responding in terms of laws, policing and powers for the Security

:52:28.:52:30.

Service. The cross-bench peer, Lord Carlile,

:52:31.:52:32.

was the Government's Independent Reviewer

:52:33.:52:34.

of Terrorism Legislation until 2011. Welcome to the programme. It's very

:52:35.:52:46.

early days but do you have any thoughts in your mind is to what

:52:47.:52:48.

policy prescription could now follow? I don't think we need much

:52:49.:52:54.

change in the law, the law is robust, it was very carefully

:52:55.:52:57.

considered by parliament last year and I agree with what Iain Duncan

:52:58.:53:00.

Smith said yesterday about the quality of our laws and attitude. I

:53:01.:53:05.

think we may have to look at the work done by the security services,

:53:06.:53:10.

it is of very high quality, they are often the unsung heroes who protect

:53:11.:53:13.

us but there is an issue about whether they have sufficient

:53:14.:53:16.

resources. If somebody comes onto the radar have to make a judgement,

:53:17.:53:21.

this said earlier the programme, maybe if they had some more money

:53:22.:53:24.

and people they could hold people on their radar for longer and applied

:53:25.:53:31.

the proportion of provisions of the investigatory Powers act for longer.

:53:32.:53:36.

Hasn't it been the case that the intelligence services have had

:53:37.:53:37.

massive increases in their budgets over the years because of the war on

:53:38.:53:43.

terror has become not a boot is on the ground job any more, it is an

:53:44.:53:47.

intelligence fight, and intelligence led fight now and that more

:53:48.:53:52.

resources could obviously help but it seems to me, the amount of

:53:53.:53:57.

resources, they could be infinite if you need to cover everybody? If I

:53:58.:54:01.

may, there are two important points, the attrition on so-called Islamic

:54:02.:54:05.

State which she mentioned a moment or two ago, is causing Islamic State

:54:06.:54:12.

to radicalise people, to commit acts as individuals in countries like the

:54:13.:54:17.

United Kingdom and the resources have to be proportionate to that.

:54:18.:54:20.

The second thing that has happened is that for us when I started as

:54:21.:54:24.

independent reviewer of terrorism legislation we were dealing mostly

:54:25.:54:32.

with IED is, now we are dealing with cars and lorries, are more

:54:33.:54:35.

ubiquitous threat and we have to equip them with resources to deal

:54:36.:54:42.

with that threat. The intelligencer this is monitored chatter, that

:54:43.:54:46.

often helps them, it all to them, they can monitor the movement of

:54:47.:54:51.

funds and so on because that can often help them as well and we are

:54:52.:54:56.

pretty good in this country compared to continental Europe on guns but if

:54:57.:55:01.

the man is not armed with a gun and if he's not part or been ignited by

:55:02.:55:07.

chatter coming out of Raqqa or somewhere else it's really tough,

:55:08.:55:10.

one intelligence officer said to me this is a needle in a haystack, a

:55:11.:55:16.

piece of hay in a haystack? It's right to say perpetrators are mostly

:55:17.:55:19.

motivated by chatter, two people, if you forgive me, of our sort of age,

:55:20.:55:25.

Andrew, to believe they would be radicalised by something on a screen

:55:26.:55:28.

is almost unimaginable but it's true. I think it's worth reflecting

:55:29.:55:32.

the security services in the United Kingdom and the government, in the

:55:33.:55:37.

last six months or so have taken well over 50,000 sites of the

:55:38.:55:43.

Internet and we have to keep up that effort as well. And that requires

:55:44.:55:47.

resources. Thank you or being with us. MPs gathered in the House of

:55:48.:55:53.

Commons this morning note a to maintain the appearance of business

:55:54.:55:57.

as usual and after the prime ministers statement which we heard

:55:58.:56:00.

earlier the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn offered his response to the

:56:01.:56:01.

attacks yesterday. What happened yesterday,

:56:02.:56:06.

within metres of where we sit now, The police are still piecing

:56:07.:56:08.

together what took place It behoves us all not

:56:09.:56:11.

to rush to judgment, but to wait for the police

:56:12.:56:16.

to establish the facts, to stay united in our communities

:56:17.:56:20.

and not allow fear or the voices Today, we are united by our humanity

:56:21.:56:26.

and by our democratic values. And by that human

:56:27.:56:38.

impulse of solidarity. To stand together, in times

:56:39.:56:41.

of darkness and adversity. Mr Speaker, I express my condolences

:56:42.:56:46.

to the family and friends of police officer Keith Palmer,

:56:47.:56:53.

who gave his life yesterday in defence of the public

:56:54.:56:56.

and of our democracy. And we're joined now

:56:57.:57:01.

by the Labour MP Liam Byrne, who represents a Birmingham

:57:02.:57:04.

constituency and who recently wrote a book on counter-extremism

:57:05.:57:06.

and "winning the battle of ideas". How do you think the government

:57:07.:57:16.

should respond to this sort of attack? We are moving into the new

:57:17.:57:21.

face of this conflict, things coming together, about 50% of those

:57:22.:57:24.

convicted of counter terrorism offences early in the century are

:57:25.:57:28.

coming out of jail over the next couple of years, you have the risk

:57:29.:57:33.

of claw-back of foreign fighters, radicalised, battle hardened but you

:57:34.:57:39.

also have got the change in operational tactics by Isis IB -- as

:57:40.:57:45.

they are disaggregated, the caliphate is becoming a virtual

:57:46.:57:47.

caliphate and the messaging from the Middle East at the moment is no

:57:48.:57:51.

longer come to build utopia in the caliphate, it's changed over the

:57:52.:57:55.

last three months, sharply focused on this is how you commit a lone

:57:56.:58:01.

wolf attack, this is the night to buy, the specification of HGV to

:58:02.:58:06.

acquire, we are into a new phase and therefore our response has to

:58:07.:58:10.

change. How does it change? Let's look at it from a community point of

:58:11.:58:14.

view, Emily mentioned about community engagement, you are a MP,

:58:15.:58:18.

the second city identified as a place where there are convicted

:58:19.:58:22.

terrorists scum off what would you do? A couple of things, strengthened

:58:23.:58:27.

the work we continue to do in schools, teachers do a great job but

:58:28.:58:32.

very often they are not greatly supported by government policies,

:58:33.:58:35.

for example, academies are able to opt out of delivering a balanced

:58:36.:58:40.

religious education, that's not necessarily good. We don't have

:58:41.:58:44.

universal community service, getting kids to mix with each other, the big

:58:45.:58:48.

front this year is a different kind of approach to social media

:58:49.:58:51.

companies, at the moment they are still the messaging command and

:58:52.:58:57.

control structure of choice... And we just heard from Alex Carlile how

:58:58.:59:01.

much influence they have. Terrorists have the golden hour, two and a half

:59:02.:59:05.

to three hours to get something down once it goes up but they will often

:59:06.:59:10.

get 30 to 50% of the messaging through in that time. Right now

:59:11.:59:12.

companies like Google, Facebook, Apple don't have a team of engineers

:59:13.:59:18.

figuring out how to solve this problem and frankly we need to get

:59:19.:59:22.

on top of that and we need to get on top of them because they have not

:59:23.:59:25.

taken this issue seriously enough. Thank you. Very interesting.

:59:26.:59:29.

I'll be back this evening on BBC One with This Week

:59:30.:59:34.

I'll be joined by Counter extremism expert Jonathan Russell,

:59:35.:59:42.

actor, Simon Callow, commentator Miranda Green,

:59:43.:59:44.

and journalist Quentin Letts, who watched yesterday's events

:59:45.:59:47.

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn get reaction to the terrorist attack in Westminster. They look at the latest developments in Birmingham and speak to MPs and security experts.


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