Browse content similar to 31/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:37. | :00:41. | |
The EU formally responds to Theresa May's Brexit letter, | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
promising to maintain strong ties and minimise disruption, | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
but rules out discussing a new free trade deal until divorce talks | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
The head of the NHS says patients in England will have to wait longer | :00:53. | :01:00. | |
for hospital operations such as knee and hip replacements | :01:01. | :01:02. | |
in a "trade-off" for improved care in other areas. | :01:03. | :01:12. | |
Donald Trump's Secretary of State affirms America's commitment | :01:13. | :01:14. | |
to Nato, but repeats the US demand for member states to | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
And what should our passports look like after Brexit? | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
This one treats Brexit as a blank canvas. | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
The whole idea is newness, cleanness, a fresh start. | :01:29. | :01:44. | |
You feel that is not going to happen, but we will see. | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
All that in the next hour, and with me for the duration, | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
the political journalist and commentator Isabel Oakeshott, | :01:53. | :01:53. | |
and Ben Chacko, editor of the Morning Star. | :01:54. | :01:55. | |
Let's kick off with the announcement this morning from the boss of NHS | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
England that the targets for waiting times for some operations | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
will no longer be enforced, meaning that patients face longer | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
waits for things like hip and knee operations. | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
Simon Stevens says his plan means that money can be freed up | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
for other areas of the NHS, such as cancer care and Accident | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
The changes come as the NHS faces tough targets for making billions of | :02:18. | :02:29. | |
Here he is, speaking in the last hour in a health | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
We've got to tackle the most urgent problems, or most | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
urgent opportunities, facing the NHS right now, | :02:37. | :02:38. | |
and I think everybody would agree that sorting out the pressures | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
Having done that, over the next several years, | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
we then absolutely want to make sure that we are expanding | :02:48. | :02:53. | |
the availability of non-urgent operations so that we can keep | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
There's an issue about the order in which we do it, and making sure | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
that we don't lose track of the other things we've got | :03:03. | :03:05. | |
That is the chief Executive of the NHS, trying to live with the budget | :03:06. | :03:18. | |
he has been given. Isabel, relaxing the 18 week target, 90% of | :03:19. | :03:24. | |
operations meant to take place within 18 weeks, that has got to be | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
relaxed. It has to be relaxed because they don't have enough money | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
to meet the target. That is right, this is a sharp wake-up call for | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
voters about what is really going on in the NHS and the scale of the | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
pressures it faces. This is an extraordinarily retrograde step. | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
Under the Labour Government, a huge amount of work went into reducing | :03:48. | :03:50. | |
waiting times, in the 90s we had people dying on waiting lists, | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
waiting up to a year, sometimes even longer, for operations, and that | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
went down to six months and, under Andy Burnham, to eight weeks. The | :04:00. | :04:10. | |
minute you take the pressure off the NHS on something like this, it opens | :04:11. | :04:13. | |
our valve and you are then into an indefinite situation for a lot of | :04:14. | :04:16. | |
people, and I just don't think this is ultimately going to save the NHS | :04:17. | :04:19. | |
money, because once you have people waiting indefinitely, their problems | :04:20. | :04:21. | |
get worse and it is more expensive to treat them. Although he is hoping | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
to save some money from extending the waiting period, he is also | :04:28. | :04:33. | |
wanting to put more into mental health, into GPs, GP surgeries in | :04:34. | :04:40. | |
A areas to take the pressure off A, more into Cancer and so on. He | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
is still struggling to make ends meet? Absolutely, this is about | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
cuts, the fact the NHS does not have enough money to fulfil its | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
obligations and therefore he is saying this is a trade-off, although | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
the Royal College of Surgeons used the phrase that it is waving the | :04:58. | :05:00. | |
white flag. That is their words, they said it is waving the white | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
flag. But of course he was the man, the chief executive, who agreed to a | :05:06. | :05:17. | |
funding formula of about 8 billion extra in return for 22 billion of | :05:18. | :05:19. | |
efficiency savings, that money being redeployed to the front-line sort of | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
thing. He agreed to it. It would seem now that he probably didn't | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
agreed to enough. I don't know whether he personally has regrets | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
about that, but the NHS has been warning, the British Medical | :05:32. | :05:34. | |
Association has been warning for years that the NHS is struggling to | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
cope with demand, and a number of his solutions, a number of the | :05:39. | :05:41. | |
things he said which are positive, care in the community, it is not | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
clear whether that is going to... No, that is a separate budget comedy | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
social care budget from local councils. The Chancellor did a bit, | :05:50. | :05:56. | |
2 billion, about that. I don't think the chief executive made any mention | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
of his 22 billion of efficiency savings this morning. Do you think | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
they are taking place? You would hope so. The thing is, nothing will | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
be resolved in terms of the NHS, even if you don't do what I | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
personally and I think a lot of Tories would secretly like to do, | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
which is completely revisit the way the NHS is funded, lets take on the | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
sacred cow, even if you are not prepared to do that, and there is no | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
political appetite for that at the moment... No sign Theresa May is | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
wanting to do that. She cannot, not when she is looking at Brexit. If | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
you tackle the issue of social care and incentivise local authorities to | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
treat older people in their homes, which they are not incentivised to | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
do at the moment, it is in their interest to push them to A, we | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
will have an ongoing problem which is only going to get worse. OK, we | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
will leave it there but of course we will return lots to the NHS in the | :06:53. | :06:54. | |
weeks and months ahead. This is the photo that was released | :06:55. | :06:56. | |
of Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon signing her letter | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
to Theresa May calling for a second It is in the First Minister's | :07:01. | :07:12. | |
official residence in Edinburgh, I think. | :07:13. | :07:20. | |
But who has Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson likened | :07:21. | :07:22. | |
At the end of the show Isabel and Ben will give us | :07:23. | :07:31. | |
I'm sure they know already, but they will keep quiet for now. | :07:32. | :07:38. | |
When Theresa May sent her Article 50 letter to the European Union | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
on Wednesday, triggering two years of Brexit negotiations, | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
she said she saw no reason why talks on a future free trade deal | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
with the EU couldn't take place alongside the discussions | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
which will thrash out the terms of the UK's exit from the union. | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
This morning the EU formally responded. | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
Donald Tusk, president of the European Council, | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
said the remaining 27 EU countries wanted to ensure a smooth | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
divorce, but said the talks would be complex and, | :08:11. | :08:12. | |
He also insisted that discussion of the UK's future relationship | :08:13. | :08:18. | |
with the EU could only begin once some key issues were agreed. | :08:19. | :08:29. | |
If not the exact sum, the principles that determine the sum, that has to | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
happen first before they can talk about any future relationship. | :08:35. | :08:36. | |
Citizens from all over the EU live, work and study in the UK. | :08:37. | :08:43. | |
And as long as the UK remains a member, their rights | :08:44. | :08:50. | |
But we need to settle the status and situation | :08:51. | :08:53. | |
after the withdrawal with reciprocal, enforceable, | :08:54. | :08:55. | |
Second, we must prevent a legal vacuum for our companies that | :08:56. | :09:04. | |
stems from the fact that, after Brexit, EU laws will no | :09:05. | :09:07. | |
Third, we will also need to make sure that the UK honours | :09:08. | :09:22. | |
all financial commitments and liabilities it has | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
Fourth, we will seek flexible and creative solutions aiming | :09:27. | :09:34. | |
at avoiding a hard border between Northern | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
It is of crucial importance to support the peace process | :09:39. | :09:44. | |
These four issues are all part of the first phase of our negotiation. | :09:45. | :09:52. | |
Once and only once we have achieved sufficient progress | :09:53. | :09:55. | |
on the withdrawal can we discuss the framework of our | :09:56. | :10:03. | |
Starting parallel talks on all issues at the same time, | :10:04. | :10:10. | |
as suggested by some in the UK, will not happen. | :10:11. | :10:17. | |
Donald Tusk, the head of the Council of ministers that brings together | :10:18. | :10:24. | |
the 28 members, 27 in this case, minus Britain. It is the job of the | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
council to agree the broad negotiating strategy of the European | :10:30. | :10:32. | |
Union in the Brexit talks and then they handed over to the European | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
Commission in the shape of Michel Barnier and it is his job to carry | :10:38. | :10:38. | |
out the negotiating mandate. Our Europe correspondent | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
Damian Grammaticas is in Brussels. A number of people in London see | :10:43. | :10:50. | |
this as a constructive, considered retiring from the Council of | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
ministers. Is that how it is seen in Brussels, is that what it is meant | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
to be? -- constructive, conciliatory tone. | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
I think it is, but what it is also doing is laying out clear parameters | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
from this site about how things will proceed, and you heard Donald Tusk | :11:09. | :11:15. | |
say there that some in the UK have wanted this concurrent approach, | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
talks alongside each other on exit and future trade deal, that will not | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
happen, you said. Of course, for some who wanted that, it was in | :11:25. | :11:30. | |
Theresa May's letter to Donald Tusk, and he is clear, he said no, it is | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
not going to happen. This is the EU starting to lay out its parameters, | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
and it will insist on this, I think, so the UK will find this is what the | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
EU side ensures happens. We have just been to a briefing with the | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
very senior EU sources said that the reason they are insisting on this is | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
that they have to have clarity and certainty about what happens the day | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
after Brexit, for example he said the decision by the UK, and he said | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
this was all because of UK decisions to leave the single market, to leave | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
the customs union, means there will be two territories with two | :12:11. | :12:13. | |
different sets of laws and regulations that apply. So what | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
happens to citizens who moved between the sides, companies who | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
have contracts between the two things? What about warrants for | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
arrest that are enforced. In one who is sought across Europe? What | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
happens on the next day, they want immediate certainty. | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
Let's not get too granular this morning! There is a softening of the | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
position here, if you read Michel Barnier's article in the FT -- in | :12:40. | :12:47. | |
the FT and listen to others in Brussels, they were saying that a | :12:48. | :12:50. | |
divorce settlement sum had to be agreed before they would even talk | :12:51. | :12:53. | |
about free trade. The mandate for the Council of ministers is that all | :12:54. | :12:56. | |
we have to do is agree the parameters of what will determine | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
the sum, not the summit itself, and then we can start talking about free | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
trade, perhaps even by October of this year. That is more constructive | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
than we have heard before? To be perfectly frank, I think that | :13:12. | :13:14. | |
if you listen very carefully to what the EU had said before, all of the | :13:15. | :13:23. | |
pronouncements before had talked about the outlines, an outline | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
agreement on those areas, not the detail, and Michel Barnier himself, | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
we know that in him saying this to people before, he is looking for | :13:32. | :13:38. | |
outline agreement on the exit, the citizens, the account opening, the | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
Irish border, and, at that point, once you have outline agreements, | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
you can move on to start talking about the future relationship, and | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
that is what has been reconfirmed by Donald Tusk. I don't think this is a | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
change of opinion, I beat this is a clear reaffirmation of that which | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
now goes to the leaders who themselves have blue sign off on | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
this. This is only a guideline at the minute... | :14:02. | :14:09. | |
This is what I wanted to ask your next, this is the recommended | :14:10. | :14:12. | |
negotiating mandate from Mr Tusk, it has to go before all 27 leaders at | :14:13. | :14:15. | |
the end of April. Are they expected to rubber-stamp this? Do you think | :14:16. | :14:18. | |
they might still try to make changes? | :14:19. | :14:21. | |
I think it is unlikely they will make major changes because what was | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
made clear in our briefing is this has already been agreed in | :14:26. | :14:28. | |
discussions with those leaders, and what we see in this language is a | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
reflection of what the leaders have been saying. Angela Merkel said on | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
Wednesday, after the article 50 letter was delivered, very similar | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
thing to this, that there must be an outline agreement before | :14:42. | :14:42. | |
negotiations on a future trade deal can take place. So I think | :14:43. | :14:59. | |
there might be small changes but the expectation is the leaders will all | :15:00. | :15:02. | |
agree with this because many of them have already lobbied to have their | :15:03. | :15:04. | |
issues, the island issue, the Gibraltar issue, reflecting what the | :15:05. | :15:06. | |
leaders want. So we now know the broad outline, | :15:07. | :15:08. | |
negotiating positions of both sides as the Brexit talks get underway. | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
Whether that will happen, we have got until May, the end of June, when | :15:14. | :15:15. | |
they will actually sit down. We're joined now by the former | :15:16. | :15:16. | |
Conservative Cabinet And in our Cardiff newsroom by | :15:17. | :15:18. | |
the Labour backbencher Owen Smith. What is your reaction to the | :15:19. | :15:25. | |
bargaining position that Mr Tusk has outlined? | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
It is a construct opening statement. That was a suggestion from some that | :15:32. | :15:38. | |
we could not start the negotiations on a new trade arrangement until we | :15:39. | :15:41. | |
completed the Article 50 negotiation. That always seemed | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
unrealistic to me, but I am pleased to see that Donald Tusk recognises | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
that, and I hope that we can start discussing both things quite soon, | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
but I understand that in the first few meetings, they want to | :15:56. | :15:58. | |
concentrate on the priorities he set out. Owen Smith, what is your | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
general reaction to watch other? Pleased that it is constructive but | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
not surprised. It confirms what we suspected: Theresa May was not going | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
to get what she wanted, which was for there to be instant discussions | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
of new trading arrangements alongside the discussion of the | :16:17. | :16:19. | |
divorce settlement. They've made it very clear that will not happen and | :16:20. | :16:22. | |
we need to broadly settle the divorce payment and broadly settle | :16:23. | :16:30. | |
the issues about Northern Ireland, and EU citizens in particular, | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
before we get any idea of future trading arrangements. We have more | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
prolonged uncertainty, I'm afraid. Donald Tusk does say it could be the | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
afraid trait -- that the free-trade business could start in October. | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
Will the British Government accept, although they say, no, we want to | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
talk about both things? We do want to get on with negating the new | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
arrangement -- negotiating the new arrangement as soon as possible. It | :16:57. | :17:03. | |
is a matter for David Davis. I think what Donald Tusk at this stage has | :17:04. | :17:06. | |
set out seems to me a reasonable approach. The fact that if it is in | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
October, October is not that far-away, and of course, one of the | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
things which Donald Tusk mentioned as being something he wanted to sort | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
out right up front was something we wanted to sort out before we even | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
began, which was the rights of EU nationals resident in the UK, so we | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
agree on that. And that can be done? I would like to see it done quickly. | :17:30. | :17:36. | |
Both sides say it is a priority. We wanted a formal agreement before | :17:37. | :17:39. | |
sitting down to the negotiations. That must be encouraging, Mr Smith? | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
Absolutely. It should be settled as soon as possible. We have argued | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
that our Government could of haste and that by offering a unilateral | :17:49. | :17:51. | |
view of what the deal would be on our side, but they chose not to take | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
that. We need to get it resolved quickly because we all want to get | :17:58. | :17:59. | |
on with getting rid of this uncertainty. Truthfully, what we | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
have seen in the last few days is the Government trying to say once | :18:04. | :18:06. | |
more that this will be relatively easy, just as she said there would | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
be a sector by sector deal, and that has been rebuffed a day once more by | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
the Europeans. It is going to be very difficult. There are going to | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
be a huge number of stumbling blocks, and the uncertainty is | :18:21. | :18:22. | |
unfortunately going to be prolonged. All the while, British businesses | :18:23. | :18:32. | |
are struggling and suffering. In what way is business struggling at | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
the moment? Our economy is one of the fastest-growing in the G7. | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
Interesting this week to see the numbers about the public offerings | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
in the UK. We have been one of the great markets for public offerings | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
over the last... Well, forever and ever, but we have seen a ?10 billion | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
reduction this year versus last. These things are highly cyclical and | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
all that would change the moment the Saudis put their state owned petrol | :19:01. | :19:03. | |
company up for sale, and they will be doing a lot of that through | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
London. Hopefully, but there is a debate right now. There was an | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
assumption that that company would be listed in London, and every is | :19:14. | :19:16. | |
now a debate about London or New York. It has... It probably will be | :19:17. | :19:22. | |
in bold. The primary listing was going to be in London but it now may | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
not. It is usually cyclical and we have seen rising numbers and | :19:29. | :19:31. | |
reductions in the UK. I am saying that we all know there is | :19:32. | :19:34. | |
uncertainty because of Brexit, and that will be longer. I follow these | :19:35. | :19:43. | |
things very carefully. IPOs in themselves are not a sign of | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
cyclical uncertainty. Back to something more important - you -- | :19:49. | :19:54. | |
you represent Open Europe, is it your view that we should be a member | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
of the single market's I don't detect from Europe any desire now, | :19:59. | :20:02. | |
given we are leaving the EU, that we should remain members of the single | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
market. My view is crystal clear. We should be members of the single | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
market. The biggest fib that the Government is telling the country | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
right now is that we will be able to enjoy the exact same benefits. That | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
is the praise they have used. Outside the single market as we | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
currently enjoy within it. Today's statement from President Task makes | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
it clear that when we leave the single market, we will have a lesser | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
level of benefits than we -- benefits than we currently enjoy,... | :20:36. | :20:46. | |
My point was that I don't detect a desire on the other side were asked | :20:47. | :20:49. | |
to be members of the single market closet complicates it. We could have | :20:50. | :20:56. | |
argued for that and we didn't. A point to John Whittingdale. We can | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
maybe, and I emphasise the word may be, do a strong free-trade agreement | :21:02. | :21:07. | |
with the EU, but it cannot deliver the exact same benefits as full | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
membership. That's just mission impossible. I think David Davis was | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
right to say that our ambition is to achieve the freest possible access | :21:18. | :21:23. | |
for trade in goods and services. But it wouldn't be the exact same | :21:24. | :21:26. | |
benefits. It may be free and a good deal, but it is not the same | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
benefits. That can only come by membership of the single market. We | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
cannot remain members of the single market. One Government priority is | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
to establish our own UK immigration policy, we can't do that and be in | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
the single market, so we have to leave. I'm not arguing with that, | :21:45. | :21:47. | |
but I would like to address that if you accept that, you cannot then say | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
that however good the freight free Dell, and it may be a bad one or a | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
good one, however God, it cannot deliver the exact same -- however | :21:57. | :22:04. | |
good, it cannot deliver the exact same benefits. I would like to start | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
by saying that is our ambition. Why would the EU get was all the | :22:10. | :22:12. | |
benefits of the single market without demanding any of the | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
conditions, the four major conditions? They might because we | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
buy more from them than we sell to them, so European companies who want | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
to achieve maximum access to the UK market will be arguing equally that | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
they should have that. Let me ask you this, John Whittingdale, then I | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
will go back to Owen Smith: The Donald Tusk statement recognises the | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
potential for a transitional arrangement after the two years of | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
the Brexit thought, not an implementation, but a transitional | :22:46. | :22:48. | |
arrangement. But it does say that the European Court's jurisdiction | :22:49. | :22:54. | |
would have to remain, and it also implies that free movement would | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
continue during that period too. Would you be up for that? At this | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
stage, I don't want a transitional period. I hope we can achieve an | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
agreement within the timescale the Prime Minister has set out, so to | :23:08. | :23:10. | |
start conceding things as part of a transitional agreement when we would | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
hopefully not even require that... The Prime Minister has talked about | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
what she calls an implementation period, so there is clearly a | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
recognition on both sides that it may not all be done within the two | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
years. They may use different words, but they probably amount to pretty | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
much the same thing. These things will have to be thrashed out in the | :23:32. | :23:37. | |
negotiation. We will abide by all our allegations and the European | :23:38. | :23:40. | |
Court of Justice judgments while we are still a member. What happens in | :23:41. | :23:46. | |
the meantime if there is a deal for an implementation period, we will | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
have to negotiate it. It is being called a transitional period, which | :23:53. | :23:59. | |
is different because implementation implies that you have agreed | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
everything but it takes a bit longer to implement. Transitional implies | :24:05. | :24:07. | |
that you leave some things, I would suggest, for that period. Is that | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
how you see it? Yes, it is inevitable almost that this will | :24:13. | :24:15. | |
take longer than two years and there will be some sort of interim, | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
transitional, call it what you want, period in which we pay into the EU | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
and abide by EU rules and regulations. In conclusion, I want | :24:25. | :24:31. | |
to say, one of the things that has been knocked down completely in the | :24:32. | :24:33. | |
statement from Donald Tusk and it needs to be acknowledged by John and | :24:34. | :24:37. | |
others, is that we will not have the same benefits as we enjoy in the | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
single market. They make it very clear, as you put it to him, that if | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
you're not a member of the club, why would you expect the same benefits | :24:47. | :24:49. | |
as those playing their subs -- paying their subs? The Government | :24:50. | :24:55. | |
need to be clear about that. We will have a lesser status and fewer | :24:56. | :24:58. | |
benefits when we leave, and that may well have economic consequences for | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
the country. Ben what do you make of it? While it's clear we won't have | :25:04. | :25:11. | |
the same benefits if we are not in the single market, there are | :25:12. | :25:14. | |
potential positives to that that the Labour Party are not making enough | :25:15. | :25:22. | |
of. There are elements of the Lisbon Treaty covering competition in state | :25:23. | :25:28. | |
aid. The Labour Party policy since Jeremy Corbyn has included a wave of | :25:29. | :25:31. | |
nationalisation, public ownership. They talk about an investment bank | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
to invest in areas of the economy and fund British industry, some of | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
which is prohibited by EU law. The Labour Party could be looking into | :25:43. | :25:49. | |
that. Mr Tusk said that we would need a level playing field and we | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
would have two love died by broadly the same state aid and tax regime as | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
the rest of Europe. -- we would have to abide broadly. He represents the | :25:59. | :26:11. | |
27. Poland is challenging the Val added -- the validity of his | :26:12. | :26:18. | |
presidency and are asking about these mechanisms. It will be | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
negotiated, but Mr Tusk is saying, if you want a good Trego, fine - you | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
have to stick broadly to our state subsidy and fiscal rules. Isabel, | :26:29. | :26:35. | |
what do you think? Millions of people who voted Brexit may be | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
pragmatic and realise that there may need to be some erosion in benefits | :26:40. | :26:45. | |
that we have in terms of the trade deal that struck, and they will feel | :26:46. | :26:48. | |
that is a reasonable price pay for the advantages... Including | :26:49. | :26:57. | |
transitional arrangements during which EU rules would continue to | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
apply? There would be a lot of nerves about a drawn-out | :27:02. | :27:03. | |
transitional period, because it is not the pub business. One other | :27:04. | :27:08. | |
point: What is going on broadly is the EU feels it needs an early win | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
for its people, so they want to come back saying, look, we will charge | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
the UK X amount. We won't have to deliver that money until the entire | :27:18. | :27:23. | |
deal is done, so maybe we need to give them a bit of space. There will | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
be plenty to talk about in the weeks and months ahead. Thank you for | :27:29. | :27:32. | |
joining us this morning, or this afternoon, as it is now. | :27:33. | :27:35. | |
Today Defence Secretary Michael Fallon is meeting his US | :27:36. | :27:37. | |
counterpart, General James Mattis, on his first visit to the UK | :27:38. | :27:40. | |
On matters of defence and security, the US and UK already | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
work closely together, mainly through NATO, | :27:45. | :27:45. | |
an alliance of 28 countries which serves as a bulwark | :27:46. | :27:48. | |
However, the new US administration has been less than enthusiastic | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
Just before he took office, Donald Trump told reporters | :27:53. | :28:00. | |
he thought Nato was "obsolete", a statement that caused | :28:01. | :28:02. | |
However, when Theresa May visited the White House | :28:03. | :28:08. | |
at the end of January, she insisted the new president | :28:09. | :28:10. | |
While the UK has committed to the Nato requirement of spending | :28:11. | :28:21. | |
2% of GDP on defence, it's one of only five | :28:22. | :28:23. | |
countries in the 28-member alliance paying its way. | :28:24. | :28:25. | |
After Angela Merkel visited Washington earlier this month, | :28:26. | :28:28. | |
Trump again rattled the alliance by tweeting that Germany owed "vast | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
sums of money" to Nato and was in the US's debt. | :28:33. | :28:44. | |
That surprised people in Berlin and London too. | :28:45. | :28:47. | |
HQ in Brussels this week, where he'll repeat Trump's | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
demand that allies ramp up their military spending. | :28:53. | :28:54. | |
Meanwhile, just short of 1000 UK army personnel are joining Nato's | :28:55. | :28:56. | |
deployment in Eastern Europe this spring - the majority | :28:57. | :28:59. | |
Well, just a few minutes ago, the Defence Secretaries held a joint | :29:00. | :29:06. | |
Let's hear what James Mattis had to say. | :29:07. | :29:18. | |
Russia's violations of international law are now a matter of record, from | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
what happened in Crimea to other aspects of their behaviour, mucking | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
around inside other people's elections, that sort of thing, so I | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
think the point I would make is that Nato stands united, the | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
transatlantic bond is united. We are going to maintain Article five as | :29:38. | :29:43. | |
the absolute bedrock of the Nato alliance, and we will, as you see | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
with the European reassurance initiative, act accordingly if | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
Russia decides to be a strategic competitor. | :29:52. | :29:58. | |
Article 5 is the principle that an attack on one Nato member is an | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
attack on the whole of Nato. To discuss all that we're joined | :30:03. | :30:03. | |
by Professor Michael Clarke, who's a senior fellow | :30:04. | :30:06. | |
at the Royal United We have heard conflicting voices | :30:07. | :30:17. | |
from the Tramp administration, including from the president | :30:18. | :30:20. | |
himself. Do you have a clear review now, is there any major change in | :30:21. | :30:26. | |
the US' attitude to Nato? No, the things Mr Trump said he said on the | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
campaign trail, mainly, and some pretty dramatic things. Somebody | :30:31. | :30:34. | |
asked him, if the Russians were to attack Europe, would America | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
automatically come to Europe's aid, and he said, it depends, it is | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
conditional. Since then, Mr Tillerson, the Secretary of State, | :30:45. | :30:47. | |
and James matters, have made the sort of statement you would expect | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
them to make, article five, the defence article is solid, that | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
Nato's 's validity is there, but behind all those statements, of | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
course, nobody really knows what Mr Trump is going to think, as | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
president, and he comes to Nato in about eight weeks' time so one of | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
the things Michael Fallon and Jim Mattis will be talking about today | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
is, how are we going to handle this? I think Jim Mattis will be saying, | :31:15. | :31:20. | |
when the boss comes over, this is what you will have to tell him. I | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
think that will be part of the agenda on the talks. For the Trump | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
administration, the real issue when it comes to spending is Germany, | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
because they spent nowhere near 2%, the strongest economy in Europe, | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
they spend nowhere near 2% of GDP, it is about 1.2, 1.3, and a lot of | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
what they spend it on is equipment that doesn't work very well. Angela | :31:43. | :31:50. | |
Merkel said that although she accepts it has to rise to 2%, she is | :31:51. | :31:53. | |
talking about 2024. The Americans say, hold on, you run a budget | :31:54. | :32:01. | |
surplus, we run both as deficits, you have to do more. That will be a | :32:02. | :32:07. | |
big issue. Yes, the Germans won the biggest balance of trade surplus in | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
the world, it is astonishing, and they are on what is now big Nato | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
European average of spending, 1.2, 1.3%, which is very poor, and the | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
Germans have said, of course, we have put a floor under that, it will | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
rise but it will take too long for the Americans. The difference with | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
the Trump administration compared with others, who have said the same | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
thing, is that the belief is that if Nato doesn't deliver quickly, | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
certainly in the first three or four years of the Trump administration, | :32:39. | :32:41. | |
that Donald Trump himself will moderate his commitment, that he | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
will do something about it, whereas previous presidents have just nagged | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
and nagged and not much about it, so in a sense he has frightened the | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
Europeans into taking his demands more seriously. He had beer and | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
predictability on his side, which previous presidents not have. | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
Another big issue, it seems pretty clear that Russia is trying to wean | :33:04. | :33:13. | |
Turkey away from Nato. This it a bit, if not entirely. President | :33:14. | :33:19. | |
Erdogan may be minded to go down that route, he seems pretty out of | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
sorts with Europe these days, particularly after what happened in | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
Holland with his ministers, and it is not clear that the US | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
administration is going to go in and fight for that, I mean not | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
militarily but fight to keep Turkey in Nato. It is no coincidence that | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
Rex Tillerson, who is in Brussels today for his meeting, is on his way | :33:43. | :33:45. | |
back from Ankara. The US is trying to take seriously the idea that we | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
have to persuade Turkey to think again about some other positions it | :33:50. | :33:53. | |
has taken but you are right, President Erdogan is flirting with | :33:54. | :33:56. | |
the idea of real friendship with Russia and this is, remember, an | :33:57. | :34:01. | |
important Nato member, Turkey is important to what happened in the | :34:02. | :34:14. | |
Middle East, in Iraq, very important to what happened in the | :34:15. | :34:16. | |
Mediterranean and President Erdogan is playing off both sides. He is fed | :34:17. | :34:19. | |
up with the European Union, pretty fed up with Nato and there is a | :34:20. | :34:21. | |
temporary alliance, I think it is temporarily, it may last a while, | :34:22. | :34:23. | |
but temporarily between Turkey, Russia and Iran to deal with the | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
Isis crisis and, as Erdogan sees it, the Kurdish crisis, and rather late | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
in the day the US seems to have woken up to the importance of that. | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
Nobody has a voice like the US in persuading Turkey just to think | :34:37. | :34:41. | |
again about this rather wild card diplomacy that Erdogan is following. | :34:42. | :34:46. | |
There is a big issue therefore Europe and Nato, particularly for | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
the EU, when we leave the EU, because once we leave, 80% of Nato | :34:52. | :34:59. | |
spending and Nato is fundamentally there to protect the EU and | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
countries around it, 80% of the spending will be from countries | :35:04. | :35:09. | |
outside the EU. That is surely unsustainable? It will be an | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
interesting situation for sure, and more than that, the countries that | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
can create frameworks, that organise Nato forces, our America, Canada, | :35:18. | :35:21. | |
Britain and Germany, so in a few years only one of those countries, | :35:22. | :35:28. | |
Germany, is in the EU, so we need to think differently about European | :35:29. | :35:34. | |
defence. The idea that Nato and EU form complementary activities, work | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
together and so on, that has been the narrative for 20 odd years. We | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
have do start looking differently because Nato certainly needs new | :35:43. | :35:45. | |
leadership, Britain is trying to provide some of that leadership, but | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
I have to say that until we know what the American attitude is, more | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
clearly, it is not obvious to us how we can work that three. Isabel, | :35:56. | :36:00. | |
should we be concerned about Nato? Absolutely, it is something I am | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
looking into with Lord Ashcroft at the moment, writing a book on the | :36:05. | :36:08. | |
state of the Armed Forces and the strength of our alliances. I think | :36:09. | :36:13. | |
there are many fractures within Nato that are not necessarily widely | :36:14. | :36:16. | |
appreciated, different factions with different agendas. I think these | :36:17. | :36:21. | |
exercises that we have, Nato deployments, are quite tokenistic, | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
there is no supply line, no readiness there to take on a Russian | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
aggression in the Baltics, and obviously this issue with Turkey is | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
extremely worrying. Then, the Morning Star has traditionally been | :36:37. | :36:39. | |
more interested in the defence of Russia than Nato, you have always | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
been against Nato, so you must be quite happy that Nato is we? I would | :36:44. | :36:49. | |
not phrases like that, Andrew. We would certainly say Nato is an | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
aggressive alliance, we heard the term sphere and unpredictability | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
used about President Trump earlier, I think those would equally apply to | :36:59. | :37:04. | |
President Erdogan who is fighting a vicious war against his own | :37:05. | :37:07. | |
population... He's not doing that under the umbrella of Nato. Article | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
five ties Britain to the decisions of Government who are Nato members. | :37:13. | :37:18. | |
Who has Nato attacked in Europe? Nato has not attacked countries in | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
Europe but it was heavily involved in the dismemberment of Yugoslavia | :37:23. | :37:25. | |
in the 90s, the destruction of Namibia, which is outside Europe, | :37:26. | :37:34. | |
but this alliance unites us to those objectives and I think Britain would | :37:35. | :37:39. | |
be safer + Nato. That is a pretty big position! Explain how we would | :37:40. | :37:45. | |
be safer without the protection of the Nato alliance. It risks dragging | :37:46. | :37:48. | |
us into conflicts such as Syria by the Turkish Government is... It is | :37:49. | :37:54. | |
your friend is the Russians who are in Syria. The Russians have | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
interviewed, but the Turks have also intervened. We have not got troops | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
in Syria. My point was that we risk being dragged into a war by end Nato | :38:04. | :38:10. | |
ally. So you think Nato has played no part in keeping the western | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
Europe democratic and free during the years of the Soviet threat? I | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
would say Nato was founded before the Warsaw Pact and was a threat to | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
eastern Europe and not the other way round. It was formed in response to | :38:24. | :38:28. | |
Soviet tanks taking control of all of Eastern Europe. It was formed | :38:29. | :38:34. | |
before the Warsaw Pact as an aggressive alliance. The Warsaw Pact | :38:35. | :38:37. | |
was formed after the Soviets had taken over all of Eastern Europe! | :38:38. | :38:43. | |
The Warsaw Pact was an Eastern Alliance, the equivalent of Nato. I | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
think everyone will be relieved that you are not running the country. | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
Professor Clark, I would like your reaction to the story we are moving | :38:52. | :38:52. | |
onto, stay with us. Hundreds of British Muslims | :38:53. | :38:55. | |
have travelled to join But what about those | :38:56. | :38:57. | |
fighting on the other side? A bit like joining the Foreign | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
Legion, increasingly we've seen So, how should those fighters be | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
treated when they return? Kurdish military groups in Syria | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
and Iraq are engaged in a bitter They are widely recognised | :39:12. | :39:18. | |
as the most effective fighting force But this is also considered to be | :39:19. | :39:28. | |
a Socialist movement, establishing a system of democracy | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
in this troubled region. And, thanks to social media, | :39:34. | :39:40. | |
would-be fighters from the UK have been able to make contact | :39:41. | :39:42. | |
and join them. My name is Zaidan Azlin, | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
Kurdish name is Rezat Rojava. Those who've left the comfort | :39:48. | :39:49. | |
of Britain to take up arms here in Syria include a former chef, | :39:50. | :39:55. | |
an IT worker and a care assistant. Some of those who return | :39:56. | :40:02. | |
after fighting against IS are now being arrested by counterterror | :40:03. | :40:11. | |
police when they arrive So, is fighting abroad for anyone | :40:12. | :40:13. | |
apart from the British Army I've come to meet John Harding, | :40:14. | :40:19. | |
who has fought in Syria twice. He became the commander | :40:20. | :40:26. | |
of a medical unit helping I'm not there to kill people, | :40:27. | :40:29. | |
I'm there to liberate. Everybody has the right | :40:30. | :40:35. | |
to live freely. Daesh have taken that | :40:36. | :40:37. | |
right away from people. I, along with some other people, | :40:38. | :40:40. | |
are protecting that right. You don't get any | :40:41. | :40:42. | |
pleasure from this. When John returned a few weeks ago, | :40:43. | :40:48. | |
he was detained at the airport and says he's been told he is under | :40:49. | :40:59. | |
investigation by I was asked to speak to a couple | :41:00. | :41:01. | |
of officers from special branch, who questioned me under suspicion | :41:02. | :41:08. | |
of preparing for acts of terrorism. I think they have to make sure, | :41:09. | :41:13. | |
but I don't think it There would be no need for this | :41:14. | :41:20. | |
waste of public funds The YPG, a military | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
unit formed to defend It's difficult to verify numbers, | :41:25. | :41:35. | |
but the YPG says hundreds of western volunteers from many different | :41:36. | :41:41. | |
countries have fought with them. The YPG is not a proscribed | :41:42. | :41:44. | |
terror group in the UK, but it is considered a terror | :41:45. | :41:48. | |
organisation by Turkey. The difficulty from the point of | :41:49. | :41:50. | |
view of MI5 and the counterterrorist police is that the YPG has links | :41:51. | :41:53. | |
to a similar organisation, called the PKK, which is classed | :41:54. | :42:00. | |
by the European Union, the United States and ourselves | :42:01. | :42:03. | |
as a terrorist organisation. Before 2013, David Cameron | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
himself was not sure It's become OK to support | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
the Kurds, very brave people, but you kind of break a taboo, | :42:14. | :42:30. | |
a barrier to kill other people, The first time I went home, | :42:31. | :42:33. | |
the British police, they arrested me and accused me of terrorism | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
for fighting against Daesh. When this man from Nottinghamshire | :42:38. | :42:40. | |
spent months on bail after his return last year, | :42:41. | :42:42. | |
his local Conservative MP, Robert Jenrick, called him | :42:43. | :42:45. | |
brave and urged police If this is something that I believe | :42:46. | :42:47. | |
in, then I need to do it. And Kimi Taylor, the first British | :42:48. | :42:51. | |
woman fighting with the Kurds, says her family have now been told | :42:52. | :42:54. | |
they could be prosecuted. There's clear warnings | :42:55. | :42:57. | |
from the Government that British fighters in Syria risk breaking | :42:58. | :42:59. | |
counterterror laws, But evidence shows that's unlikely | :43:00. | :43:06. | |
to put off those who continue Whatever measure you take, | :43:07. | :43:17. | |
as long as there is a problem there, as long as there is a war there, | :43:18. | :43:21. | |
as long as there is injustice being done, there are a lot | :43:22. | :43:24. | |
of humanitarian people And John Harding is already | :43:25. | :43:26. | |
planning to head back. There are other ways | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
to help - why do this? If fighting alongside the Kurds | :43:31. | :43:32. | |
is breaking UK terror laws, They've publicly said that the Kurds | :43:33. | :43:35. | |
are our biggest allies in the fight against Isis, | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
and it's the right thing to do. And Michael Clarke from | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
Rusi is still with us. Professor Clark, we have been most | :43:44. | :43:56. | |
concerned about British citizen to have gone to fight for Isis and how | :43:57. | :43:59. | |
we handle them as they return to this country and how big a terror | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
threat they could represent. How do we handle those who, if I can put it | :44:05. | :44:08. | |
this way, went to fight for the other side? It is more of a | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
difficult one. Actually there are very few cases, their only seem to | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
be a dozen or couple of dozen people in this category, whereas seven or | :44:17. | :44:28. | |
800 people have gone to fight for Isis or al-Nusra, the Al-Qaeda | :44:29. | :44:31. | |
related group. So it is a small group of people who have gone to the | :44:32. | :44:34. | |
Y PGP today are difficult cases. Technically they have not broken the | :44:35. | :44:37. | |
law, the Y PGE is not a terrorist organisation according to Europe, | :44:38. | :44:39. | |
the United Nations or the United States, but sebum -- some people | :44:40. | :44:44. | |
might claim to be working with the YPG when they have been working with | :44:45. | :44:47. | |
someone else, and also as your report said the YPG does relate to | :44:48. | :44:53. | |
the PKK, which is a proscribed terrorist organisation, so anyone | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
who goes to fight for the YPG has to accept they will be a person of | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
interest when they come back and the onus is on them to show they did | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
work with the YPG and did not engage with terrorism in any other respect. | :45:07. | :45:13. | |
At the moment, counterterrorism forces seem to deal with this on a | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
case-by-case basis, as you said the numbers are not huge, but fewer | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
people than went to fight for Islamic State. If that's the correct | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
way to proceed at the moment, on a case-by-case basis? I guess it will | :45:27. | :45:29. | |
be because we are only dealing with a handful of people and all of the | :45:30. | :45:33. | |
cases are different, people go for different reasons and who knows | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
where they will end up? If they stay for six months, a year, if they stay | :45:38. | :45:40. | |
alive, they may end up working with all sorts of groups, there are so | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
many groups operating at the moment that it is logical services will be | :45:46. | :45:54. | |
interested in any British nationals who, for whatever reason, find | :45:55. | :45:57. | |
themselves in Syria or Iraq in the middle of the fighting. Professor | :45:58. | :45:59. | |
Clark, thanks for joining us on these topics. | :46:00. | :46:01. | |
The Green Party's Spring Conference is getting under way | :46:02. | :46:03. | |
The party's co-leaders, Jonathan Bartley and Caroline Lucas, | :46:04. | :46:06. | |
will be getting to the stage in just over an hour's time. | :46:07. | :46:09. | |
In their joint address, they'll say that the Government's Brexit | :46:10. | :46:11. | |
strategy is "extreme" and that it amounts to a "right-wing coup". | :46:12. | :46:14. | |
Joining me now is the party's deputy leader, Amelia Womack. | :46:15. | :46:20. | |
Amelia Womack, you're are against Brexit, and many people are, and | :46:21. | :46:29. | |
some people call it a hard Brexit, but you call it extreme - why? Good | :46:30. | :46:35. | |
afternoon, Andrew, and thank you for having me today. It is extreme | :46:36. | :46:40. | |
because, frankly, nobody voted for this type of Brexit, taking us out | :46:41. | :46:43. | |
of the single market, out of the customs union come a potentially | :46:44. | :46:49. | |
turning the UK into a tax haven. We have people saying there is going to | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
be a bonfire of red tape, and we know that that red tape is our human | :46:55. | :47:01. | |
rights and workers' rights and environmental protections. We need | :47:02. | :47:04. | |
to be ensuring we do not allow Ukip and the Conservatives, some of the | :47:05. | :47:07. | |
right-wing press, to destroy those rights that protect people. If any | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
of that was true, and I would suggest all of it is contentious, | :47:13. | :47:18. | |
but if any of it was true, why has the European Union reaction been so | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
conciliatory? Could you repeat that? If any of what you have said is | :47:24. | :47:30. | |
true, why is the European Union reaction so conciliar Tore, saying, | :47:31. | :47:35. | |
yes, we can do a deal on this? It is about -- so conciliatory. It is | :47:36. | :47:45. | |
about having a Great Repeal Bill that is transparent, not one that | :47:46. | :47:51. | |
has holes in it. I will attempt to get you to answer this. My question | :47:52. | :47:58. | |
was, if it is so extreme, why does the European Union in its response | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
think it can do business with us? We can have trade deals, but that is | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
not the same as being in a single market and protecting those rights. | :48:08. | :48:10. | |
It is not the same position to be in, and we can be talking about | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
deals, but we do not know what is on the table. That is why we are also | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
talking about a ratification referendum, making sure the EU | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
referendum was just the beginning of the process. It is this word | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
extreme. You bandy about words like extreme and right-wing coup. Where | :48:29. | :48:34. | |
is the right wing to? I missed that bit. Who meant that? When we talk | :48:35. | :48:45. | |
about a right-wing coup, it is about something that people didn't vote | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
for, that the Leave campaign did not say we believe the single market. | :48:50. | :48:59. | |
Guess they did. Bright white -- the Conservative Party was elected | :49:00. | :49:01. | |
without having these policies in its manifesto. An extreme Brexit, hard | :49:02. | :49:08. | |
Brexit, soft Brexit, it was not on the ballot paper am not something | :49:09. | :49:15. | |
people specifically voted for. The Prime Minister said, I want the | :49:16. | :49:18. | |
United Kingdom to be merged stronger, fairer, more united, more | :49:19. | :49:24. | |
outward looking than ever before. I want us to be secure, prosperous and | :49:25. | :49:30. | |
tolerant - what is the extreme bit in that? It also feels like they | :49:31. | :49:35. | |
have a blank cheque to do what they like, to push through certain | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
policies as a result of the vehicle of Brexit. On the Prime Minister's | :49:40. | :49:47. | |
words, the words that she said there, which bit was extreme? It is | :49:48. | :49:53. | |
like she has a blank cheque, because even though those words might be | :49:54. | :50:02. | |
taken lightly, reducing tax, for instance, where does that end when | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
we need those taxes for those services that deliver the way this | :50:08. | :50:11. | |
country works. Potentially, we're turning the UK into a tax haven. | :50:12. | :50:15. | |
Labour has accused the Government of that. The Government has never used | :50:16. | :50:21. | |
these words. You used the word extreme, but let us look at the | :50:22. | :50:24. | |
position of the Government on a number of things at the moment. It | :50:25. | :50:27. | |
wants to close as possible relationship with the EU. It is in | :50:28. | :50:33. | |
favour of continued participation in Nato, in favour of free trade, and | :50:34. | :50:39. | |
it wants to manage migration but not stop it. Your party is against Nato, | :50:40. | :50:46. | |
against defence spending, in favour of no controls and immigration, and | :50:47. | :50:52. | |
now largely against free trade - I wonder who the extreme party really | :50:53. | :50:58. | |
is. I would suggest it is you. You said that Prime Minister is talking | :50:59. | :51:02. | |
about tolerance, but she is also talking about using migrants as a | :51:03. | :51:08. | |
bargaining chip. Every time I ask a question, you answer one I have not | :51:09. | :51:11. | |
asked. I am saying to you that your party's policies, against | :51:12. | :51:18. | |
globalisation and free trade, defence spending, against Nato and | :51:19. | :51:21. | |
any control on immigration whatsoever, that is the extreme | :51:22. | :51:29. | |
policies. We're not not against migration, it is about a more human | :51:30. | :51:34. | |
form of migration that makes sure families are not separated, that we | :51:35. | :51:38. | |
can have nurses in the NHS who are not deported. How much control on | :51:39. | :51:46. | |
immigration would you have? Making sure we are reuniting families, not | :51:47. | :51:49. | |
deporting people who don't earn enough, people in our NHS, | :51:50. | :51:55. | |
delivering fundamental services. Great games, but they are not | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
controls. It is still not an open borders policy, and I think that at | :52:00. | :52:04. | |
the moment, having an arbitrary tick box exercise for migrants isn't | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
working. It is ignoring the fact that many of the problems we have in | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
the UK are as a result of failure of Government policy. We have not built | :52:15. | :52:20. | |
in a housing, for instance. We don't have a proper living wage. You would | :52:21. | :52:23. | |
have the border open, but as many people say, we should build more | :52:24. | :52:29. | |
homes, more schools, have better public services for the people | :52:30. | :52:31. | |
coming to this country, but you would not control the numbers, would | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
you? We would make sure that families were reunited. It is a | :52:37. | :52:41. | |
long-term ambition. As a long-term ambition... It is not what we're | :52:42. | :52:46. | |
talking about at the moment. We're talking about making sure we're not | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
stopping people coming as a result of arbitrary reasons. You might have | :52:52. | :52:57. | |
seen that at our conference a woman who was turned away for a visa | :52:58. | :53:02. | |
because she was single. Because she was single? Because she wasn't in a | :53:03. | :53:07. | |
relationship was the reason given by the Home Office, making her unable | :53:08. | :53:14. | |
to attend a conference in the UK. The Government says we are open for | :53:15. | :53:17. | |
business, but it is a conference like this that would show we were | :53:18. | :53:22. | |
open for business. Amelia Womack, I will have to stop you. Enjoy the | :53:23. | :53:26. | |
rest of your conference. Thank you for being with us. | :53:27. | :53:27. | |
What will be the most obvious sign that the UK has left the EU? | :53:28. | :53:30. | |
For some people, it'll be the front cover of our passports, | :53:31. | :53:35. | |
which will no longer have to bear the words "European Union". | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
There have been calls to go back to the dark-blue cover of old, | :53:40. | :53:42. | |
but an online design magazine is running a competition | :53:43. | :53:45. | |
to see if there are any other ideas out there. | :53:46. | :53:50. | |
Adam's been to hang out with the north London | :53:51. | :53:52. | |
The uber-trendy offices of website Dezeen, where they've been inundated | :53:53. | :54:00. | |
with pictures for a Brexit passport for professionals and amateurs from | :54:01. | :54:06. | |
-- with pictures for a Brexit passport by | :54:07. | :54:08. | |
professionals and amateurs from | :54:09. | :54:09. | |
This one reinvents the whole idea of a passport, which is usually | :54:10. | :54:14. | |
This is designed to be worn with pride and | :54:15. | :54:17. | |
to start conversations with our friends overseas. | :54:18. | :54:19. | |
This one just reinvents what the colour of a | :54:20. | :54:21. | |
This is very colourful, but actually, all of | :54:22. | :54:24. | |
these patterns are based on geological survey drawings of | :54:25. | :54:26. | |
Another slightly subversive one, this one | :54:27. | :54:29. | |
represents the 52% who voted out, and the 48% who voted in. | :54:30. | :54:32. | |
This one treats Brexit as a blank canvas, so | :54:33. | :54:36. | |
..very, calm, quiet passport with a white cover on it, | :54:37. | :54:42. | |
And a faded-out Union Jack, but the whole idea, it's, like, | :54:43. | :54:50. | |
This one is very optimistic, because it does actually show Loch Ness. | :54:51. | :54:58. | |
Sifting through the short list, an esteemed panel of | :54:59. | :55:04. | |
designers, an academic, a journalist, and the boss of the | :55:05. | :55:06. | |
Design Museum, where the winner will go on display next month. | :55:07. | :55:09. | |
What do you think about our current passport? | :55:10. | :55:11. | |
It's been carefully jollied up with scenes | :55:12. | :55:16. | |
of English, Scottish, Welsh | :55:17. | :55:18. | |
and Irish landscapes, and with charming cottages and flowers. | :55:19. | :55:24. | |
You compare it with the Americans, who | :55:25. | :55:26. | |
have astronauts, pioneers and people with pitchforks. | :55:27. | :55:30. | |
It's all just a bit of fun, because it will be up to the | :55:31. | :55:33. | |
Home Office to choose the look of any future passport, but there's | :55:34. | :55:37. | |
good news if you want to bring back the old dark-blue one - the | :55:38. | :55:40. | |
international rules say a country can choose any colour or material | :55:41. | :55:43. | |
they like for the front cover, as long as it is a standard size. | :55:44. | :55:50. | |
I used to have one of these passports, but it wouldn't fit into | :55:51. | :56:00. | |
the electronic machines today, would it? We can't go back to the blue | :56:01. | :56:04. | |
ones. I don't want one and never had one. How about gold or silver, | :56:05. | :56:08. | |
something that shows how our future is looking? Golden and bright. | :56:09. | :56:15. | |
Orange or something. I would be happy with red. Should be change it? | :56:16. | :56:22. | |
The European Union bit has to come off if we're out of the EU, but is | :56:23. | :56:28. | |
that all we should do? I think the current passport is quite nice. It | :56:29. | :56:31. | |
has nice scenes from around Britain in it. Has it? Faded on the inside | :56:32. | :56:43. | |
pages. Yours has too many stamps! We will see if we change the passport. | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
Not the highest priority at the moment, but it is symbolic to some | :56:48. | :56:50. | |
people, I can understand that. Time now for our round-up | :56:51. | :56:52. | |
of the political week. Here's Ellie Price with the top | :56:53. | :56:55. | |
stories, in just sixty seconds. Forget Dear John, this | :56:56. | :56:59. | |
was the Dear Don letter that Britain's Brussels ambassador | :57:00. | :57:02. | |
handed Theresa May's missive to EU Council | :57:03. | :57:05. | |
President Donald Tusk. Can I add to this, | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
we already miss you. The Prime Minister legged it up | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
to Glasgow to meet the First The next day, the Scottish | :57:14. | :57:20. | |
Parliament approved Nicola Sturgeon's call for a second | :57:21. | :57:27. | |
referendum on independence. Amber Rudd demanded a crackdown | :57:28. | :57:29. | |
on terrorists using social media and was ridiculed for her | :57:30. | :57:32. | |
grasp of techno speak. The best people who understand | :57:33. | :57:34. | |
the technology, who understand the necessary hashtags | :57:35. | :57:37. | |
to stop this stuff even being put up, not just taking it down, | :57:38. | :57:40. | |
but stopping it getting up The boss of NHS England says | :57:41. | :57:43. | |
patients face longer waits for operations in a trade-off | :57:44. | :57:46. | |
for improved care in other areas. And today, the Chancellor | :57:47. | :57:49. | |
authorised the sale of the Bradford Bingley | :57:50. | :57:51. | |
mortgages it took on during the financial crisis, earning | :57:52. | :57:54. | |
the taxpayer nearly ?12 billion. There's just time before we go | :57:55. | :57:57. | |
to find out the answer to our quiz. This is the photo that was released | :57:58. | :58:14. | |
of Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon signing the letter | :58:15. | :58:17. | |
to Theresa May calling for a second But who has Scottish Conservative | :58:18. | :58:19. | |
leader Ruth Davidson Is it: a) Theresa May, | :58:20. | :58:22. | |
b) Margaret Thatcher, c) Angela Merkel, or d) Melania | :58:23. | :58:25. | |
Trump. Thatcher. It is. Let us show you the | :58:26. | :58:40. | |
picture for the similarities. That is the picture we are looking for. | :58:41. | :58:46. | |
She is on the sofa, like Nicola Sturgeon. I'm sure we can agree they | :58:47. | :58:50. | |
were both highly post pictures. Thank you to Ben and Isabel. I will | :58:51. | :58:58. | |
be back on the Sunday Politics this Sunday on BBC One at 11am. Hope you | :58:59. | :58:59. |