31/03/2017 Daily Politics


31/03/2017

Andrew Neil is joined by journalists Isabel Oakeshott and Ben Chacko to discuss the European Union response to the triggering of Article 50.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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The EU formally responds to Theresa May's Brexit letter,

:00:42.:00:45.

promising to maintain strong ties and minimise disruption,

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but rules out discussing a new free trade deal until divorce talks

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The head of the NHS says patients in England will have to wait longer

:00:53.:01:00.

for hospital operations such as knee and hip replacements

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in a "trade-off" for improved care in other areas.

:01:03.:01:12.

Donald Trump's Secretary of State affirms America's commitment

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to Nato, but repeats the US demand for member states to

:01:15.:01:17.

And what should our passports look like after Brexit?

:01:18.:01:23.

This one treats Brexit as a blank canvas.

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The whole idea is newness, cleanness, a fresh start.

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You feel that is not going to happen, but we will see.

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All that in the next hour, and with me for the duration,

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the political journalist and commentator Isabel Oakeshott,

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and Ben Chacko, editor of the Morning Star.

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Let's kick off with the announcement this morning from the boss of NHS

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England that the targets for waiting times for some operations

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will no longer be enforced, meaning that patients face longer

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waits for things like hip and knee operations.

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Simon Stevens says his plan means that money can be freed up

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for other areas of the NHS, such as cancer care and Accident

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The changes come as the NHS faces tough targets for making billions of

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Here he is, speaking in the last hour in a health

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We've got to tackle the most urgent problems, or most

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urgent opportunities, facing the NHS right now,

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and I think everybody would agree that sorting out the pressures

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Having done that, over the next several years,

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we then absolutely want to make sure that we are expanding

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the availability of non-urgent operations so that we can keep

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There's an issue about the order in which we do it, and making sure

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that we don't lose track of the other things we've got

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That is the chief Executive of the NHS, trying to live with the budget

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he has been given. Isabel, relaxing the 18 week target, 90% of

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operations meant to take place within 18 weeks, that has got to be

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relaxed. It has to be relaxed because they don't have enough money

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to meet the target. That is right, this is a sharp wake-up call for

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voters about what is really going on in the NHS and the scale of the

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pressures it faces. This is an extraordinarily retrograde step.

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Under the Labour Government, a huge amount of work went into reducing

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waiting times, in the 90s we had people dying on waiting lists,

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waiting up to a year, sometimes even longer, for operations, and that

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went down to six months and, under Andy Burnham, to eight weeks. The

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minute you take the pressure off the NHS on something like this, it opens

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our valve and you are then into an indefinite situation for a lot of

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people, and I just don't think this is ultimately going to save the NHS

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money, because once you have people waiting indefinitely, their problems

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get worse and it is more expensive to treat them. Although he is hoping

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to save some money from extending the waiting period, he is also

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wanting to put more into mental health, into GPs, GP surgeries in

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A areas to take the pressure off A, more into Cancer and so on. He

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is still struggling to make ends meet? Absolutely, this is about

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cuts, the fact the NHS does not have enough money to fulfil its

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obligations and therefore he is saying this is a trade-off, although

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the Royal College of Surgeons used the phrase that it is waving the

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white flag. That is their words, they said it is waving the white

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flag. But of course he was the man, the chief executive, who agreed to a

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funding formula of about 8 billion extra in return for 22 billion of

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efficiency savings, that money being redeployed to the front-line sort of

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thing. He agreed to it. It would seem now that he probably didn't

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agreed to enough. I don't know whether he personally has regrets

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about that, but the NHS has been warning, the British Medical

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Association has been warning for years that the NHS is struggling to

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cope with demand, and a number of his solutions, a number of the

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things he said which are positive, care in the community, it is not

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clear whether that is going to... No, that is a separate budget comedy

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social care budget from local councils. The Chancellor did a bit,

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2 billion, about that. I don't think the chief executive made any mention

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of his 22 billion of efficiency savings this morning. Do you think

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they are taking place? You would hope so. The thing is, nothing will

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be resolved in terms of the NHS, even if you don't do what I

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personally and I think a lot of Tories would secretly like to do,

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which is completely revisit the way the NHS is funded, lets take on the

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sacred cow, even if you are not prepared to do that, and there is no

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political appetite for that at the moment... No sign Theresa May is

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wanting to do that. She cannot, not when she is looking at Brexit. If

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you tackle the issue of social care and incentivise local authorities to

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treat older people in their homes, which they are not incentivised to

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do at the moment, it is in their interest to push them to A, we

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will have an ongoing problem which is only going to get worse. OK, we

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will leave it there but of course we will return lots to the NHS in the

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weeks and months ahead. This is the photo that was released

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of Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon signing her letter

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to Theresa May calling for a second It is in the First Minister's

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official residence in Edinburgh, I think.

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But who has Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson likened

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At the end of the show Isabel and Ben will give us

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I'm sure they know already, but they will keep quiet for now.

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When Theresa May sent her Article 50 letter to the European Union

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on Wednesday, triggering two years of Brexit negotiations,

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she said she saw no reason why talks on a future free trade deal

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with the EU couldn't take place alongside the discussions

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which will thrash out the terms of the UK's exit from the union.

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This morning the EU formally responded.

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Donald Tusk, president of the European Council,

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said the remaining 27 EU countries wanted to ensure a smooth

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divorce, but said the talks would be complex and,

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He also insisted that discussion of the UK's future relationship

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with the EU could only begin once some key issues were agreed.

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If not the exact sum, the principles that determine the sum, that has to

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happen first before they can talk about any future relationship.

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Citizens from all over the EU live, work and study in the UK.

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And as long as the UK remains a member, their rights

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But we need to settle the status and situation

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after the withdrawal with reciprocal, enforceable,

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Second, we must prevent a legal vacuum for our companies that

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stems from the fact that, after Brexit, EU laws will no

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Third, we will also need to make sure that the UK honours

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all financial commitments and liabilities it has

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Fourth, we will seek flexible and creative solutions aiming

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at avoiding a hard border between Northern

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It is of crucial importance to support the peace process

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These four issues are all part of the first phase of our negotiation.

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Once and only once we have achieved sufficient progress

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on the withdrawal can we discuss the framework of our

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Starting parallel talks on all issues at the same time,

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as suggested by some in the UK, will not happen.

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Donald Tusk, the head of the Council of ministers that brings together

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the 28 members, 27 in this case, minus Britain. It is the job of the

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council to agree the broad negotiating strategy of the European

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Union in the Brexit talks and then they handed over to the European

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Commission in the shape of Michel Barnier and it is his job to carry

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out the negotiating mandate. Our Europe correspondent

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Damian Grammaticas is in Brussels. A number of people in London see

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this as a constructive, considered retiring from the Council of

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ministers. Is that how it is seen in Brussels, is that what it is meant

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to be? -- constructive, conciliatory tone.

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I think it is, but what it is also doing is laying out clear parameters

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from this site about how things will proceed, and you heard Donald Tusk

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say there that some in the UK have wanted this concurrent approach,

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talks alongside each other on exit and future trade deal, that will not

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happen, you said. Of course, for some who wanted that, it was in

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Theresa May's letter to Donald Tusk, and he is clear, he said no, it is

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not going to happen. This is the EU starting to lay out its parameters,

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and it will insist on this, I think, so the UK will find this is what the

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EU side ensures happens. We have just been to a briefing with the

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very senior EU sources said that the reason they are insisting on this is

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that they have to have clarity and certainty about what happens the day

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after Brexit, for example he said the decision by the UK, and he said

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this was all because of UK decisions to leave the single market, to leave

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the customs union, means there will be two territories with two

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different sets of laws and regulations that apply. So what

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happens to citizens who moved between the sides, companies who

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have contracts between the two things? What about warrants for

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arrest that are enforced. In one who is sought across Europe? What

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happens on the next day, they want immediate certainty.

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Let's not get too granular this morning! There is a softening of the

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position here, if you read Michel Barnier's article in the FT -- in

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the FT and listen to others in Brussels, they were saying that a

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divorce settlement sum had to be agreed before they would even talk

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about free trade. The mandate for the Council of ministers is that all

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we have to do is agree the parameters of what will determine

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the sum, not the summit itself, and then we can start talking about free

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trade, perhaps even by October of this year. That is more constructive

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than we have heard before? To be perfectly frank, I think that

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if you listen very carefully to what the EU had said before, all of the

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pronouncements before had talked about the outlines, an outline

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agreement on those areas, not the detail, and Michel Barnier himself,

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we know that in him saying this to people before, he is looking for

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outline agreement on the exit, the citizens, the account opening, the

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Irish border, and, at that point, once you have outline agreements,

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you can move on to start talking about the future relationship, and

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that is what has been reconfirmed by Donald Tusk. I don't think this is a

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change of opinion, I beat this is a clear reaffirmation of that which

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now goes to the leaders who themselves have blue sign off on

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this. This is only a guideline at the minute...

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This is what I wanted to ask your next, this is the recommended

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negotiating mandate from Mr Tusk, it has to go before all 27 leaders at

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the end of April. Are they expected to rubber-stamp this? Do you think

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they might still try to make changes?

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I think it is unlikely they will make major changes because what was

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made clear in our briefing is this has already been agreed in

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discussions with those leaders, and what we see in this language is a

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reflection of what the leaders have been saying. Angela Merkel said on

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Wednesday, after the article 50 letter was delivered, very similar

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thing to this, that there must be an outline agreement before

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negotiations on a future trade deal can take place. So I think

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there might be small changes but the expectation is the leaders will all

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agree with this because many of them have already lobbied to have their

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issues, the island issue, the Gibraltar issue, reflecting what the

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leaders want. So we now know the broad outline,

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negotiating positions of both sides as the Brexit talks get underway.

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Whether that will happen, we have got until May, the end of June, when

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they will actually sit down. We're joined now by the former

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Conservative Cabinet And in our Cardiff newsroom by

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the Labour backbencher Owen Smith. What is your reaction to the

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bargaining position that Mr Tusk has outlined?

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It is a construct opening statement. That was a suggestion from some that

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we could not start the negotiations on a new trade arrangement until we

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completed the Article 50 negotiation. That always seemed

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unrealistic to me, but I am pleased to see that Donald Tusk recognises

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that, and I hope that we can start discussing both things quite soon,

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but I understand that in the first few meetings, they want to

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concentrate on the priorities he set out. Owen Smith, what is your

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general reaction to watch other? Pleased that it is constructive but

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not surprised. It confirms what we suspected: Theresa May was not going

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to get what she wanted, which was for there to be instant discussions

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of new trading arrangements alongside the discussion of the

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divorce settlement. They've made it very clear that will not happen and

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we need to broadly settle the divorce payment and broadly settle

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the issues about Northern Ireland, and EU citizens in particular,

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before we get any idea of future trading arrangements. We have more

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prolonged uncertainty, I'm afraid. Donald Tusk does say it could be the

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afraid trait -- that the free-trade business could start in October.

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Will the British Government accept, although they say, no, we want to

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talk about both things? We do want to get on with negating the new

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arrangement -- negotiating the new arrangement as soon as possible. It

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is a matter for David Davis. I think what Donald Tusk at this stage has

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set out seems to me a reasonable approach. The fact that if it is in

:17:07.:17:12.

October, October is not that far-away, and of course, one of the

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things which Donald Tusk mentioned as being something he wanted to sort

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out right up front was something we wanted to sort out before we even

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began, which was the rights of EU nationals resident in the UK, so we

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agree on that. And that can be done? I would like to see it done quickly.

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Both sides say it is a priority. We wanted a formal agreement before

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sitting down to the negotiations. That must be encouraging, Mr Smith?

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Absolutely. It should be settled as soon as possible. We have argued

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that our Government could of haste and that by offering a unilateral

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view of what the deal would be on our side, but they chose not to take

:17:52.:17:57.

that. We need to get it resolved quickly because we all want to get

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on with getting rid of this uncertainty. Truthfully, what we

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have seen in the last few days is the Government trying to say once

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more that this will be relatively easy, just as she said there would

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be a sector by sector deal, and that has been rebuffed a day once more by

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the Europeans. It is going to be very difficult. There are going to

:18:17.:18:20.

be a huge number of stumbling blocks, and the uncertainty is

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unfortunately going to be prolonged. All the while, British businesses

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are struggling and suffering. In what way is business struggling at

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the moment? Our economy is one of the fastest-growing in the G7.

:18:37.:18:40.

Interesting this week to see the numbers about the public offerings

:18:41.:18:44.

in the UK. We have been one of the great markets for public offerings

:18:45.:18:49.

over the last... Well, forever and ever, but we have seen a ?10 billion

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reduction this year versus last. These things are highly cyclical and

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all that would change the moment the Saudis put their state owned petrol

:19:01.:19:03.

company up for sale, and they will be doing a lot of that through

:19:04.:19:09.

London. Hopefully, but there is a debate right now. There was an

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assumption that that company would be listed in London, and every is

:19:14.:19:16.

now a debate about London or New York. It has... It probably will be

:19:17.:19:22.

in bold. The primary listing was going to be in London but it now may

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not. It is usually cyclical and we have seen rising numbers and

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reductions in the UK. I am saying that we all know there is

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uncertainty because of Brexit, and that will be longer. I follow these

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things very carefully. IPOs in themselves are not a sign of

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cyclical uncertainty. Back to something more important - you --

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you represent Open Europe, is it your view that we should be a member

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of the single market's I don't detect from Europe any desire now,

:19:59.:20:02.

given we are leaving the EU, that we should remain members of the single

:20:03.:20:07.

market. My view is crystal clear. We should be members of the single

:20:08.:20:13.

market. The biggest fib that the Government is telling the country

:20:14.:20:17.

right now is that we will be able to enjoy the exact same benefits. That

:20:18.:20:21.

is the praise they have used. Outside the single market as we

:20:22.:20:25.

currently enjoy within it. Today's statement from President Task makes

:20:26.:20:30.

it clear that when we leave the single market, we will have a lesser

:20:31.:20:35.

level of benefits than we -- benefits than we currently enjoy,...

:20:36.:20:46.

My point was that I don't detect a desire on the other side were asked

:20:47.:20:49.

to be members of the single market closet complicates it. We could have

:20:50.:20:56.

argued for that and we didn't. A point to John Whittingdale. We can

:20:57.:21:01.

maybe, and I emphasise the word may be, do a strong free-trade agreement

:21:02.:21:07.

with the EU, but it cannot deliver the exact same benefits as full

:21:08.:21:12.

membership. That's just mission impossible. I think David Davis was

:21:13.:21:17.

right to say that our ambition is to achieve the freest possible access

:21:18.:21:23.

for trade in goods and services. But it wouldn't be the exact same

:21:24.:21:26.

benefits. It may be free and a good deal, but it is not the same

:21:27.:21:30.

benefits. That can only come by membership of the single market. We

:21:31.:21:34.

cannot remain members of the single market. One Government priority is

:21:35.:21:39.

to establish our own UK immigration policy, we can't do that and be in

:21:40.:21:44.

the single market, so we have to leave. I'm not arguing with that,

:21:45.:21:47.

but I would like to address that if you accept that, you cannot then say

:21:48.:21:52.

that however good the freight free Dell, and it may be a bad one or a

:21:53.:21:56.

good one, however God, it cannot deliver the exact same -- however

:21:57.:22:04.

good, it cannot deliver the exact same benefits. I would like to start

:22:05.:22:09.

by saying that is our ambition. Why would the EU get was all the

:22:10.:22:12.

benefits of the single market without demanding any of the

:22:13.:22:16.

conditions, the four major conditions? They might because we

:22:17.:22:21.

buy more from them than we sell to them, so European companies who want

:22:22.:22:25.

to achieve maximum access to the UK market will be arguing equally that

:22:26.:22:30.

they should have that. Let me ask you this, John Whittingdale, then I

:22:31.:22:36.

will go back to Owen Smith: The Donald Tusk statement recognises the

:22:37.:22:41.

potential for a transitional arrangement after the two years of

:22:42.:22:45.

the Brexit thought, not an implementation, but a transitional

:22:46.:22:48.

arrangement. But it does say that the European Court's jurisdiction

:22:49.:22:54.

would have to remain, and it also implies that free movement would

:22:55.:22:58.

continue during that period too. Would you be up for that? At this

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stage, I don't want a transitional period. I hope we can achieve an

:23:03.:23:07.

agreement within the timescale the Prime Minister has set out, so to

:23:08.:23:10.

start conceding things as part of a transitional agreement when we would

:23:11.:23:14.

hopefully not even require that... The Prime Minister has talked about

:23:15.:23:18.

what she calls an implementation period, so there is clearly a

:23:19.:23:23.

recognition on both sides that it may not all be done within the two

:23:24.:23:27.

years. They may use different words, but they probably amount to pretty

:23:28.:23:31.

much the same thing. These things will have to be thrashed out in the

:23:32.:23:37.

negotiation. We will abide by all our allegations and the European

:23:38.:23:40.

Court of Justice judgments while we are still a member. What happens in

:23:41.:23:46.

the meantime if there is a deal for an implementation period, we will

:23:47.:23:52.

have to negotiate it. It is being called a transitional period, which

:23:53.:23:59.

is different because implementation implies that you have agreed

:24:00.:24:04.

everything but it takes a bit longer to implement. Transitional implies

:24:05.:24:07.

that you leave some things, I would suggest, for that period. Is that

:24:08.:24:12.

how you see it? Yes, it is inevitable almost that this will

:24:13.:24:15.

take longer than two years and there will be some sort of interim,

:24:16.:24:20.

transitional, call it what you want, period in which we pay into the EU

:24:21.:24:24.

and abide by EU rules and regulations. In conclusion, I want

:24:25.:24:31.

to say, one of the things that has been knocked down completely in the

:24:32.:24:33.

statement from Donald Tusk and it needs to be acknowledged by John and

:24:34.:24:37.

others, is that we will not have the same benefits as we enjoy in the

:24:38.:24:42.

single market. They make it very clear, as you put it to him, that if

:24:43.:24:46.

you're not a member of the club, why would you expect the same benefits

:24:47.:24:49.

as those playing their subs -- paying their subs? The Government

:24:50.:24:55.

need to be clear about that. We will have a lesser status and fewer

:24:56.:24:58.

benefits when we leave, and that may well have economic consequences for

:24:59.:25:03.

the country. Ben what do you make of it? While it's clear we won't have

:25:04.:25:11.

the same benefits if we are not in the single market, there are

:25:12.:25:14.

potential positives to that that the Labour Party are not making enough

:25:15.:25:22.

of. There are elements of the Lisbon Treaty covering competition in state

:25:23.:25:28.

aid. The Labour Party policy since Jeremy Corbyn has included a wave of

:25:29.:25:31.

nationalisation, public ownership. They talk about an investment bank

:25:32.:25:36.

to invest in areas of the economy and fund British industry, some of

:25:37.:25:42.

which is prohibited by EU law. The Labour Party could be looking into

:25:43.:25:49.

that. Mr Tusk said that we would need a level playing field and we

:25:50.:25:53.

would have two love died by broadly the same state aid and tax regime as

:25:54.:25:58.

the rest of Europe. -- we would have to abide broadly. He represents the

:25:59.:26:11.

27. Poland is challenging the Val added -- the validity of his

:26:12.:26:18.

presidency and are asking about these mechanisms. It will be

:26:19.:26:23.

negotiated, but Mr Tusk is saying, if you want a good Trego, fine - you

:26:24.:26:28.

have to stick broadly to our state subsidy and fiscal rules. Isabel,

:26:29.:26:35.

what do you think? Millions of people who voted Brexit may be

:26:36.:26:39.

pragmatic and realise that there may need to be some erosion in benefits

:26:40.:26:45.

that we have in terms of the trade deal that struck, and they will feel

:26:46.:26:48.

that is a reasonable price pay for the advantages... Including

:26:49.:26:57.

transitional arrangements during which EU rules would continue to

:26:58.:27:01.

apply? There would be a lot of nerves about a drawn-out

:27:02.:27:03.

transitional period, because it is not the pub business. One other

:27:04.:27:08.

point: What is going on broadly is the EU feels it needs an early win

:27:09.:27:13.

for its people, so they want to come back saying, look, we will charge

:27:14.:27:17.

the UK X amount. We won't have to deliver that money until the entire

:27:18.:27:23.

deal is done, so maybe we need to give them a bit of space. There will

:27:24.:27:28.

be plenty to talk about in the weeks and months ahead. Thank you for

:27:29.:27:32.

joining us this morning, or this afternoon, as it is now.

:27:33.:27:35.

Today Defence Secretary Michael Fallon is meeting his US

:27:36.:27:37.

counterpart, General James Mattis, on his first visit to the UK

:27:38.:27:40.

On matters of defence and security, the US and UK already

:27:41.:27:44.

work closely together, mainly through NATO,

:27:45.:27:45.

an alliance of 28 countries which serves as a bulwark

:27:46.:27:48.

However, the new US administration has been less than enthusiastic

:27:49.:27:52.

Just before he took office, Donald Trump told reporters

:27:53.:28:00.

he thought Nato was "obsolete", a statement that caused

:28:01.:28:02.

However, when Theresa May visited the White House

:28:03.:28:08.

at the end of January, she insisted the new president

:28:09.:28:10.

While the UK has committed to the Nato requirement of spending

:28:11.:28:21.

2% of GDP on defence, it's one of only five

:28:22.:28:23.

countries in the 28-member alliance paying its way.

:28:24.:28:25.

After Angela Merkel visited Washington earlier this month,

:28:26.:28:28.

Trump again rattled the alliance by tweeting that Germany owed "vast

:28:29.:28:32.

sums of money" to Nato and was in the US's debt.

:28:33.:28:44.

That surprised people in Berlin and London too.

:28:45.:28:47.

HQ in Brussels this week, where he'll repeat Trump's

:28:48.:28:52.

demand that allies ramp up their military spending.

:28:53.:28:54.

Meanwhile, just short of 1000 UK army personnel are joining Nato's

:28:55.:28:56.

deployment in Eastern Europe this spring - the majority

:28:57.:28:59.

Well, just a few minutes ago, the Defence Secretaries held a joint

:29:00.:29:06.

Let's hear what James Mattis had to say.

:29:07.:29:18.

Russia's violations of international law are now a matter of record, from

:29:19.:29:22.

what happened in Crimea to other aspects of their behaviour, mucking

:29:23.:29:27.

around inside other people's elections, that sort of thing, so I

:29:28.:29:31.

think the point I would make is that Nato stands united, the

:29:32.:29:37.

transatlantic bond is united. We are going to maintain Article five as

:29:38.:29:43.

the absolute bedrock of the Nato alliance, and we will, as you see

:29:44.:29:47.

with the European reassurance initiative, act accordingly if

:29:48.:29:51.

Russia decides to be a strategic competitor.

:29:52.:29:58.

Article 5 is the principle that an attack on one Nato member is an

:29:59.:30:02.

attack on the whole of Nato. To discuss all that we're joined

:30:03.:30:03.

by Professor Michael Clarke, who's a senior fellow

:30:04.:30:06.

at the Royal United We have heard conflicting voices

:30:07.:30:17.

from the Tramp administration, including from the president

:30:18.:30:20.

himself. Do you have a clear review now, is there any major change in

:30:21.:30:26.

the US' attitude to Nato? No, the things Mr Trump said he said on the

:30:27.:30:30.

campaign trail, mainly, and some pretty dramatic things. Somebody

:30:31.:30:34.

asked him, if the Russians were to attack Europe, would America

:30:35.:30:38.

automatically come to Europe's aid, and he said, it depends, it is

:30:39.:30:44.

conditional. Since then, Mr Tillerson, the Secretary of State,

:30:45.:30:47.

and James matters, have made the sort of statement you would expect

:30:48.:30:52.

them to make, article five, the defence article is solid, that

:30:53.:30:57.

Nato's 's validity is there, but behind all those statements, of

:30:58.:31:01.

course, nobody really knows what Mr Trump is going to think, as

:31:02.:31:05.

president, and he comes to Nato in about eight weeks' time so one of

:31:06.:31:10.

the things Michael Fallon and Jim Mattis will be talking about today

:31:11.:31:14.

is, how are we going to handle this? I think Jim Mattis will be saying,

:31:15.:31:20.

when the boss comes over, this is what you will have to tell him. I

:31:21.:31:24.

think that will be part of the agenda on the talks. For the Trump

:31:25.:31:28.

administration, the real issue when it comes to spending is Germany,

:31:29.:31:32.

because they spent nowhere near 2%, the strongest economy in Europe,

:31:33.:31:37.

they spend nowhere near 2% of GDP, it is about 1.2, 1.3, and a lot of

:31:38.:31:42.

what they spend it on is equipment that doesn't work very well. Angela

:31:43.:31:50.

Merkel said that although she accepts it has to rise to 2%, she is

:31:51.:31:53.

talking about 2024. The Americans say, hold on, you run a budget

:31:54.:32:01.

surplus, we run both as deficits, you have to do more. That will be a

:32:02.:32:07.

big issue. Yes, the Germans won the biggest balance of trade surplus in

:32:08.:32:11.

the world, it is astonishing, and they are on what is now big Nato

:32:12.:32:15.

European average of spending, 1.2, 1.3%, which is very poor, and the

:32:16.:32:20.

Germans have said, of course, we have put a floor under that, it will

:32:21.:32:24.

rise but it will take too long for the Americans. The difference with

:32:25.:32:28.

the Trump administration compared with others, who have said the same

:32:29.:32:33.

thing, is that the belief is that if Nato doesn't deliver quickly,

:32:34.:32:38.

certainly in the first three or four years of the Trump administration,

:32:39.:32:41.

that Donald Trump himself will moderate his commitment, that he

:32:42.:32:45.

will do something about it, whereas previous presidents have just nagged

:32:46.:32:50.

and nagged and not much about it, so in a sense he has frightened the

:32:51.:32:54.

Europeans into taking his demands more seriously. He had beer and

:32:55.:32:58.

predictability on his side, which previous presidents not have.

:32:59.:33:03.

Another big issue, it seems pretty clear that Russia is trying to wean

:33:04.:33:13.

Turkey away from Nato. This it a bit, if not entirely. President

:33:14.:33:19.

Erdogan may be minded to go down that route, he seems pretty out of

:33:20.:33:23.

sorts with Europe these days, particularly after what happened in

:33:24.:33:27.

Holland with his ministers, and it is not clear that the US

:33:28.:33:32.

administration is going to go in and fight for that, I mean not

:33:33.:33:37.

militarily but fight to keep Turkey in Nato. It is no coincidence that

:33:38.:33:42.

Rex Tillerson, who is in Brussels today for his meeting, is on his way

:33:43.:33:45.

back from Ankara. The US is trying to take seriously the idea that we

:33:46.:33:49.

have to persuade Turkey to think again about some other positions it

:33:50.:33:53.

has taken but you are right, President Erdogan is flirting with

:33:54.:33:56.

the idea of real friendship with Russia and this is, remember, an

:33:57.:34:01.

important Nato member, Turkey is important to what happened in the

:34:02.:34:14.

Middle East, in Iraq, very important to what happened in the

:34:15.:34:16.

Mediterranean and President Erdogan is playing off both sides. He is fed

:34:17.:34:19.

up with the European Union, pretty fed up with Nato and there is a

:34:20.:34:21.

temporary alliance, I think it is temporarily, it may last a while,

:34:22.:34:23.

but temporarily between Turkey, Russia and Iran to deal with the

:34:24.:34:27.

Isis crisis and, as Erdogan sees it, the Kurdish crisis, and rather late

:34:28.:34:31.

in the day the US seems to have woken up to the importance of that.

:34:32.:34:36.

Nobody has a voice like the US in persuading Turkey just to think

:34:37.:34:41.

again about this rather wild card diplomacy that Erdogan is following.

:34:42.:34:46.

There is a big issue therefore Europe and Nato, particularly for

:34:47.:34:51.

the EU, when we leave the EU, because once we leave, 80% of Nato

:34:52.:34:59.

spending and Nato is fundamentally there to protect the EU and

:35:00.:35:03.

countries around it, 80% of the spending will be from countries

:35:04.:35:09.

outside the EU. That is surely unsustainable? It will be an

:35:10.:35:13.

interesting situation for sure, and more than that, the countries that

:35:14.:35:17.

can create frameworks, that organise Nato forces, our America, Canada,

:35:18.:35:21.

Britain and Germany, so in a few years only one of those countries,

:35:22.:35:28.

Germany, is in the EU, so we need to think differently about European

:35:29.:35:34.

defence. The idea that Nato and EU form complementary activities, work

:35:35.:35:38.

together and so on, that has been the narrative for 20 odd years. We

:35:39.:35:42.

have do start looking differently because Nato certainly needs new

:35:43.:35:45.

leadership, Britain is trying to provide some of that leadership, but

:35:46.:35:50.

I have to say that until we know what the American attitude is, more

:35:51.:35:55.

clearly, it is not obvious to us how we can work that three. Isabel,

:35:56.:36:00.

should we be concerned about Nato? Absolutely, it is something I am

:36:01.:36:04.

looking into with Lord Ashcroft at the moment, writing a book on the

:36:05.:36:08.

state of the Armed Forces and the strength of our alliances. I think

:36:09.:36:13.

there are many fractures within Nato that are not necessarily widely

:36:14.:36:16.

appreciated, different factions with different agendas. I think these

:36:17.:36:21.

exercises that we have, Nato deployments, are quite tokenistic,

:36:22.:36:26.

there is no supply line, no readiness there to take on a Russian

:36:27.:36:31.

aggression in the Baltics, and obviously this issue with Turkey is

:36:32.:36:36.

extremely worrying. Then, the Morning Star has traditionally been

:36:37.:36:39.

more interested in the defence of Russia than Nato, you have always

:36:40.:36:43.

been against Nato, so you must be quite happy that Nato is we? I would

:36:44.:36:49.

not phrases like that, Andrew. We would certainly say Nato is an

:36:50.:36:54.

aggressive alliance, we heard the term sphere and unpredictability

:36:55.:36:58.

used about President Trump earlier, I think those would equally apply to

:36:59.:37:04.

President Erdogan who is fighting a vicious war against his own

:37:05.:37:07.

population... He's not doing that under the umbrella of Nato. Article

:37:08.:37:12.

five ties Britain to the decisions of Government who are Nato members.

:37:13.:37:18.

Who has Nato attacked in Europe? Nato has not attacked countries in

:37:19.:37:22.

Europe but it was heavily involved in the dismemberment of Yugoslavia

:37:23.:37:25.

in the 90s, the destruction of Namibia, which is outside Europe,

:37:26.:37:34.

but this alliance unites us to those objectives and I think Britain would

:37:35.:37:39.

be safer + Nato. That is a pretty big position! Explain how we would

:37:40.:37:45.

be safer without the protection of the Nato alliance. It risks dragging

:37:46.:37:48.

us into conflicts such as Syria by the Turkish Government is... It is

:37:49.:37:54.

your friend is the Russians who are in Syria. The Russians have

:37:55.:37:58.

interviewed, but the Turks have also intervened. We have not got troops

:37:59.:38:03.

in Syria. My point was that we risk being dragged into a war by end Nato

:38:04.:38:10.

ally. So you think Nato has played no part in keeping the western

:38:11.:38:14.

Europe democratic and free during the years of the Soviet threat? I

:38:15.:38:19.

would say Nato was founded before the Warsaw Pact and was a threat to

:38:20.:38:23.

eastern Europe and not the other way round. It was formed in response to

:38:24.:38:28.

Soviet tanks taking control of all of Eastern Europe. It was formed

:38:29.:38:34.

before the Warsaw Pact as an aggressive alliance. The Warsaw Pact

:38:35.:38:37.

was formed after the Soviets had taken over all of Eastern Europe!

:38:38.:38:43.

The Warsaw Pact was an Eastern Alliance, the equivalent of Nato. I

:38:44.:38:47.

think everyone will be relieved that you are not running the country.

:38:48.:38:51.

Professor Clark, I would like your reaction to the story we are moving

:38:52.:38:52.

onto, stay with us. Hundreds of British Muslims

:38:53.:38:55.

have travelled to join But what about those

:38:56.:38:57.

fighting on the other side? A bit like joining the Foreign

:38:58.:39:02.

Legion, increasingly we've seen So, how should those fighters be

:39:03.:39:07.

treated when they return? Kurdish military groups in Syria

:39:08.:39:11.

and Iraq are engaged in a bitter They are widely recognised

:39:12.:39:18.

as the most effective fighting force But this is also considered to be

:39:19.:39:28.

a Socialist movement, establishing a system of democracy

:39:29.:39:33.

in this troubled region. And, thanks to social media,

:39:34.:39:40.

would-be fighters from the UK have been able to make contact

:39:41.:39:42.

and join them. My name is Zaidan Azlin,

:39:43.:39:47.

Kurdish name is Rezat Rojava. Those who've left the comfort

:39:48.:39:49.

of Britain to take up arms here in Syria include a former chef,

:39:50.:39:55.

an IT worker and a care assistant. Some of those who return

:39:56.:40:02.

after fighting against IS are now being arrested by counterterror

:40:03.:40:11.

police when they arrive So, is fighting abroad for anyone

:40:12.:40:13.

apart from the British Army I've come to meet John Harding,

:40:14.:40:19.

who has fought in Syria twice. He became the commander

:40:20.:40:26.

of a medical unit helping I'm not there to kill people,

:40:27.:40:29.

I'm there to liberate. Everybody has the right

:40:30.:40:35.

to live freely. Daesh have taken that

:40:36.:40:37.

right away from people. I, along with some other people,

:40:38.:40:40.

are protecting that right. You don't get any

:40:41.:40:42.

pleasure from this. When John returned a few weeks ago,

:40:43.:40:48.

he was detained at the airport and says he's been told he is under

:40:49.:40:59.

investigation by I was asked to speak to a couple

:41:00.:41:01.

of officers from special branch, who questioned me under suspicion

:41:02.:41:08.

of preparing for acts of terrorism. I think they have to make sure,

:41:09.:41:13.

but I don't think it There would be no need for this

:41:14.:41:20.

waste of public funds The YPG, a military

:41:21.:41:24.

unit formed to defend It's difficult to verify numbers,

:41:25.:41:35.

but the YPG says hundreds of western volunteers from many different

:41:36.:41:41.

countries have fought with them. The YPG is not a proscribed

:41:42.:41:44.

terror group in the UK, but it is considered a terror

:41:45.:41:48.

organisation by Turkey. The difficulty from the point of

:41:49.:41:50.

view of MI5 and the counterterrorist police is that the YPG has links

:41:51.:41:53.

to a similar organisation, called the PKK, which is classed

:41:54.:42:00.

by the European Union, the United States and ourselves

:42:01.:42:03.

as a terrorist organisation. Before 2013, David Cameron

:42:04.:42:08.

himself was not sure It's become OK to support

:42:09.:42:13.

the Kurds, very brave people, but you kind of break a taboo,

:42:14.:42:30.

a barrier to kill other people, The first time I went home,

:42:31.:42:33.

the British police, they arrested me and accused me of terrorism

:42:34.:42:37.

for fighting against Daesh. When this man from Nottinghamshire

:42:38.:42:40.

spent months on bail after his return last year,

:42:41.:42:42.

his local Conservative MP, Robert Jenrick, called him

:42:43.:42:45.

brave and urged police If this is something that I believe

:42:46.:42:47.

in, then I need to do it. And Kimi Taylor, the first British

:42:48.:42:51.

woman fighting with the Kurds, says her family have now been told

:42:52.:42:54.

they could be prosecuted. There's clear warnings

:42:55.:42:57.

from the Government that British fighters in Syria risk breaking

:42:58.:42:59.

counterterror laws, But evidence shows that's unlikely

:43:00.:43:06.

to put off those who continue Whatever measure you take,

:43:07.:43:17.

as long as there is a problem there, as long as there is a war there,

:43:18.:43:21.

as long as there is injustice being done, there are a lot

:43:22.:43:24.

of humanitarian people And John Harding is already

:43:25.:43:26.

planning to head back. There are other ways

:43:27.:43:30.

to help - why do this? If fighting alongside the Kurds

:43:31.:43:32.

is breaking UK terror laws, They've publicly said that the Kurds

:43:33.:43:35.

are our biggest allies in the fight against Isis,

:43:36.:43:39.

and it's the right thing to do. And Michael Clarke from

:43:40.:43:43.

Rusi is still with us. Professor Clark, we have been most

:43:44.:43:56.

concerned about British citizen to have gone to fight for Isis and how

:43:57.:43:59.

we handle them as they return to this country and how big a terror

:44:00.:44:04.

threat they could represent. How do we handle those who, if I can put it

:44:05.:44:08.

this way, went to fight for the other side? It is more of a

:44:09.:44:12.

difficult one. Actually there are very few cases, their only seem to

:44:13.:44:16.

be a dozen or couple of dozen people in this category, whereas seven or

:44:17.:44:28.

800 people have gone to fight for Isis or al-Nusra, the Al-Qaeda

:44:29.:44:31.

related group. So it is a small group of people who have gone to the

:44:32.:44:34.

Y PGP today are difficult cases. Technically they have not broken the

:44:35.:44:37.

law, the Y PGE is not a terrorist organisation according to Europe,

:44:38.:44:39.

the United Nations or the United States, but sebum -- some people

:44:40.:44:44.

might claim to be working with the YPG when they have been working with

:44:45.:44:47.

someone else, and also as your report said the YPG does relate to

:44:48.:44:53.

the PKK, which is a proscribed terrorist organisation, so anyone

:44:54.:44:57.

who goes to fight for the YPG has to accept they will be a person of

:44:58.:45:02.

interest when they come back and the onus is on them to show they did

:45:03.:45:06.

work with the YPG and did not engage with terrorism in any other respect.

:45:07.:45:13.

At the moment, counterterrorism forces seem to deal with this on a

:45:14.:45:17.

case-by-case basis, as you said the numbers are not huge, but fewer

:45:18.:45:21.

people than went to fight for Islamic State. If that's the correct

:45:22.:45:26.

way to proceed at the moment, on a case-by-case basis? I guess it will

:45:27.:45:29.

be because we are only dealing with a handful of people and all of the

:45:30.:45:33.

cases are different, people go for different reasons and who knows

:45:34.:45:37.

where they will end up? If they stay for six months, a year, if they stay

:45:38.:45:40.

alive, they may end up working with all sorts of groups, there are so

:45:41.:45:45.

many groups operating at the moment that it is logical services will be

:45:46.:45:54.

interested in any British nationals who, for whatever reason, find

:45:55.:45:57.

themselves in Syria or Iraq in the middle of the fighting. Professor

:45:58.:45:59.

Clark, thanks for joining us on these topics.

:46:00.:46:01.

The Green Party's Spring Conference is getting under way

:46:02.:46:03.

The party's co-leaders, Jonathan Bartley and Caroline Lucas,

:46:04.:46:06.

will be getting to the stage in just over an hour's time.

:46:07.:46:09.

In their joint address, they'll say that the Government's Brexit

:46:10.:46:11.

strategy is "extreme" and that it amounts to a "right-wing coup".

:46:12.:46:14.

Joining me now is the party's deputy leader, Amelia Womack.

:46:15.:46:20.

Amelia Womack, you're are against Brexit, and many people are, and

:46:21.:46:29.

some people call it a hard Brexit, but you call it extreme - why? Good

:46:30.:46:35.

afternoon, Andrew, and thank you for having me today. It is extreme

:46:36.:46:40.

because, frankly, nobody voted for this type of Brexit, taking us out

:46:41.:46:43.

of the single market, out of the customs union come a potentially

:46:44.:46:49.

turning the UK into a tax haven. We have people saying there is going to

:46:50.:46:54.

be a bonfire of red tape, and we know that that red tape is our human

:46:55.:47:01.

rights and workers' rights and environmental protections. We need

:47:02.:47:04.

to be ensuring we do not allow Ukip and the Conservatives, some of the

:47:05.:47:07.

right-wing press, to destroy those rights that protect people. If any

:47:08.:47:12.

of that was true, and I would suggest all of it is contentious,

:47:13.:47:18.

but if any of it was true, why has the European Union reaction been so

:47:19.:47:23.

conciliatory? Could you repeat that? If any of what you have said is

:47:24.:47:30.

true, why is the European Union reaction so conciliar Tore, saying,

:47:31.:47:35.

yes, we can do a deal on this? It is about -- so conciliatory. It is

:47:36.:47:45.

about having a Great Repeal Bill that is transparent, not one that

:47:46.:47:51.

has holes in it. I will attempt to get you to answer this. My question

:47:52.:47:58.

was, if it is so extreme, why does the European Union in its response

:47:59.:48:02.

think it can do business with us? We can have trade deals, but that is

:48:03.:48:07.

not the same as being in a single market and protecting those rights.

:48:08.:48:10.

It is not the same position to be in, and we can be talking about

:48:11.:48:14.

deals, but we do not know what is on the table. That is why we are also

:48:15.:48:19.

talking about a ratification referendum, making sure the EU

:48:20.:48:23.

referendum was just the beginning of the process. It is this word

:48:24.:48:28.

extreme. You bandy about words like extreme and right-wing coup. Where

:48:29.:48:34.

is the right wing to? I missed that bit. Who meant that? When we talk

:48:35.:48:45.

about a right-wing coup, it is about something that people didn't vote

:48:46.:48:49.

for, that the Leave campaign did not say we believe the single market.

:48:50.:48:59.

Guess they did. Bright white -- the Conservative Party was elected

:49:00.:49:01.

without having these policies in its manifesto. An extreme Brexit, hard

:49:02.:49:08.

Brexit, soft Brexit, it was not on the ballot paper am not something

:49:09.:49:15.

people specifically voted for. The Prime Minister said, I want the

:49:16.:49:18.

United Kingdom to be merged stronger, fairer, more united, more

:49:19.:49:24.

outward looking than ever before. I want us to be secure, prosperous and

:49:25.:49:30.

tolerant - what is the extreme bit in that? It also feels like they

:49:31.:49:35.

have a blank cheque to do what they like, to push through certain

:49:36.:49:39.

policies as a result of the vehicle of Brexit. On the Prime Minister's

:49:40.:49:47.

words, the words that she said there, which bit was extreme? It is

:49:48.:49:53.

like she has a blank cheque, because even though those words might be

:49:54.:50:02.

taken lightly, reducing tax, for instance, where does that end when

:50:03.:50:07.

we need those taxes for those services that deliver the way this

:50:08.:50:11.

country works. Potentially, we're turning the UK into a tax haven.

:50:12.:50:15.

Labour has accused the Government of that. The Government has never used

:50:16.:50:21.

these words. You used the word extreme, but let us look at the

:50:22.:50:24.

position of the Government on a number of things at the moment. It

:50:25.:50:27.

wants to close as possible relationship with the EU. It is in

:50:28.:50:33.

favour of continued participation in Nato, in favour of free trade, and

:50:34.:50:39.

it wants to manage migration but not stop it. Your party is against Nato,

:50:40.:50:46.

against defence spending, in favour of no controls and immigration, and

:50:47.:50:52.

now largely against free trade - I wonder who the extreme party really

:50:53.:50:58.

is. I would suggest it is you. You said that Prime Minister is talking

:50:59.:51:02.

about tolerance, but she is also talking about using migrants as a

:51:03.:51:08.

bargaining chip. Every time I ask a question, you answer one I have not

:51:09.:51:11.

asked. I am saying to you that your party's policies, against

:51:12.:51:18.

globalisation and free trade, defence spending, against Nato and

:51:19.:51:21.

any control on immigration whatsoever, that is the extreme

:51:22.:51:29.

policies. We're not not against migration, it is about a more human

:51:30.:51:34.

form of migration that makes sure families are not separated, that we

:51:35.:51:38.

can have nurses in the NHS who are not deported. How much control on

:51:39.:51:46.

immigration would you have? Making sure we are reuniting families, not

:51:47.:51:49.

deporting people who don't earn enough, people in our NHS,

:51:50.:51:55.

delivering fundamental services. Great games, but they are not

:51:56.:51:59.

controls. It is still not an open borders policy, and I think that at

:52:00.:52:04.

the moment, having an arbitrary tick box exercise for migrants isn't

:52:05.:52:09.

working. It is ignoring the fact that many of the problems we have in

:52:10.:52:14.

the UK are as a result of failure of Government policy. We have not built

:52:15.:52:20.

in a housing, for instance. We don't have a proper living wage. You would

:52:21.:52:23.

have the border open, but as many people say, we should build more

:52:24.:52:29.

homes, more schools, have better public services for the people

:52:30.:52:31.

coming to this country, but you would not control the numbers, would

:52:32.:52:36.

you? We would make sure that families were reunited. It is a

:52:37.:52:41.

long-term ambition. As a long-term ambition... It is not what we're

:52:42.:52:46.

talking about at the moment. We're talking about making sure we're not

:52:47.:52:51.

stopping people coming as a result of arbitrary reasons. You might have

:52:52.:52:57.

seen that at our conference a woman who was turned away for a visa

:52:58.:53:02.

because she was single. Because she was single? Because she wasn't in a

:53:03.:53:07.

relationship was the reason given by the Home Office, making her unable

:53:08.:53:14.

to attend a conference in the UK. The Government says we are open for

:53:15.:53:17.

business, but it is a conference like this that would show we were

:53:18.:53:22.

open for business. Amelia Womack, I will have to stop you. Enjoy the

:53:23.:53:26.

rest of your conference. Thank you for being with us.

:53:27.:53:27.

What will be the most obvious sign that the UK has left the EU?

:53:28.:53:30.

For some people, it'll be the front cover of our passports,

:53:31.:53:35.

which will no longer have to bear the words "European Union".

:53:36.:53:39.

There have been calls to go back to the dark-blue cover of old,

:53:40.:53:42.

but an online design magazine is running a competition

:53:43.:53:45.

to see if there are any other ideas out there.

:53:46.:53:50.

Adam's been to hang out with the north London

:53:51.:53:52.

The uber-trendy offices of website Dezeen, where they've been inundated

:53:53.:54:00.

with pictures for a Brexit passport for professionals and amateurs from

:54:01.:54:06.

-- with pictures for a Brexit passport by

:54:07.:54:08.

professionals and amateurs from

:54:09.:54:09.

This one reinvents the whole idea of a passport, which is usually

:54:10.:54:14.

This is designed to be worn with pride and

:54:15.:54:17.

to start conversations with our friends overseas.

:54:18.:54:19.

This one just reinvents what the colour of a

:54:20.:54:21.

This is very colourful, but actually, all of

:54:22.:54:24.

these patterns are based on geological survey drawings of

:54:25.:54:26.

Another slightly subversive one, this one

:54:27.:54:29.

represents the 52% who voted out, and the 48% who voted in.

:54:30.:54:32.

This one treats Brexit as a blank canvas, so

:54:33.:54:36.

..very, calm, quiet passport with a white cover on it,

:54:37.:54:42.

And a faded-out Union Jack, but the whole idea, it's, like,

:54:43.:54:50.

This one is very optimistic, because it does actually show Loch Ness.

:54:51.:54:58.

Sifting through the short list, an esteemed panel of

:54:59.:55:04.

designers, an academic, a journalist, and the boss of the

:55:05.:55:06.

Design Museum, where the winner will go on display next month.

:55:07.:55:09.

What do you think about our current passport?

:55:10.:55:11.

It's been carefully jollied up with scenes

:55:12.:55:16.

of English, Scottish, Welsh

:55:17.:55:18.

and Irish landscapes, and with charming cottages and flowers.

:55:19.:55:24.

You compare it with the Americans, who

:55:25.:55:26.

have astronauts, pioneers and people with pitchforks.

:55:27.:55:30.

It's all just a bit of fun, because it will be up to the

:55:31.:55:33.

Home Office to choose the look of any future passport, but there's

:55:34.:55:37.

good news if you want to bring back the old dark-blue one - the

:55:38.:55:40.

international rules say a country can choose any colour or material

:55:41.:55:43.

they like for the front cover, as long as it is a standard size.

:55:44.:55:50.

I used to have one of these passports, but it wouldn't fit into

:55:51.:56:00.

the electronic machines today, would it? We can't go back to the blue

:56:01.:56:04.

ones. I don't want one and never had one. How about gold or silver,

:56:05.:56:08.

something that shows how our future is looking? Golden and bright.

:56:09.:56:15.

Orange or something. I would be happy with red. Should be change it?

:56:16.:56:22.

The European Union bit has to come off if we're out of the EU, but is

:56:23.:56:28.

that all we should do? I think the current passport is quite nice. It

:56:29.:56:31.

has nice scenes from around Britain in it. Has it? Faded on the inside

:56:32.:56:43.

pages. Yours has too many stamps! We will see if we change the passport.

:56:44.:56:47.

Not the highest priority at the moment, but it is symbolic to some

:56:48.:56:50.

people, I can understand that. Time now for our round-up

:56:51.:56:52.

of the political week. Here's Ellie Price with the top

:56:53.:56:55.

stories, in just sixty seconds. Forget Dear John, this

:56:56.:56:59.

was the Dear Don letter that Britain's Brussels ambassador

:57:00.:57:02.

handed Theresa May's missive to EU Council

:57:03.:57:05.

President Donald Tusk. Can I add to this,

:57:06.:57:09.

we already miss you. The Prime Minister legged it up

:57:10.:57:13.

to Glasgow to meet the First The next day, the Scottish

:57:14.:57:20.

Parliament approved Nicola Sturgeon's call for a second

:57:21.:57:27.

referendum on independence. Amber Rudd demanded a crackdown

:57:28.:57:29.

on terrorists using social media and was ridiculed for her

:57:30.:57:32.

grasp of techno speak. The best people who understand

:57:33.:57:34.

the technology, who understand the necessary hashtags

:57:35.:57:37.

to stop this stuff even being put up, not just taking it down,

:57:38.:57:40.

but stopping it getting up The boss of NHS England says

:57:41.:57:43.

patients face longer waits for operations in a trade-off

:57:44.:57:46.

for improved care in other areas. And today, the Chancellor

:57:47.:57:49.

authorised the sale of the Bradford Bingley

:57:50.:57:51.

mortgages it took on during the financial crisis, earning

:57:52.:57:54.

the taxpayer nearly ?12 billion. There's just time before we go

:57:55.:57:57.

to find out the answer to our quiz. This is the photo that was released

:57:58.:58:14.

of Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon signing the letter

:58:15.:58:17.

to Theresa May calling for a second But who has Scottish Conservative

:58:18.:58:19.

leader Ruth Davidson Is it: a) Theresa May,

:58:20.:58:22.

b) Margaret Thatcher, c) Angela Merkel, or d) Melania

:58:23.:58:25.

Trump. Thatcher. It is. Let us show you the

:58:26.:58:40.

picture for the similarities. That is the picture we are looking for.

:58:41.:58:46.

She is on the sofa, like Nicola Sturgeon. I'm sure we can agree they

:58:47.:58:50.

were both highly post pictures. Thank you to Ben and Isabel. I will

:58:51.:58:58.

be back on the Sunday Politics this Sunday on BBC One at 11am. Hope you

:58:59.:58:59.

Andrew Neil is joined by journalists Isabel Oakeshott and Ben Chacko to discuss the European Union response to the triggering of Article 50, proposed changes to NHS waiting times and a look at what UK passports could look like after Britain leaves the EU.


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