25/04/2017 Daily Politics


25/04/2017

Jo Coburn is joined by Sir Michael Wilshaw, former chief inspector of schools in England, to look at Labour's Brexit policy and Theresa May's plan for grammar schools.


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Transcript


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:36.:00:40.

Labour promises to scrap Theresa May's Brexit plans

:00:41.:00:42.

and unilaterally guarantee the rights of EU residents if it

:00:43.:00:45.

The party's shadow Brexit Secretary Keir Stamer joins us live.

:00:46.:00:50.

Less than a year ago party loyalties were abandoned as MPs

:00:51.:00:53.

fought together to remain in the European Union.

:00:54.:00:57.

Today Remain-supporting Conservatives quit the anti-Brexit

:00:58.:01:00.

group Open Britain over plans to target Brexit-supporting

:01:01.:01:04.

Plaid Cymru launch their election campaign today with a pledge

:01:05.:01:09.

to protect Wales from a Conservative party intent on gaining powers

:01:10.:01:13.

We'll hear from their leader, Leanne Wood.

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Strict teachers can be annoying and some students find them

:01:20.:01:25.

annoying, but it's best to get it over with because sometimes

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when you're older and you progress, you will have bosses you don't like.

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And with us for the whole of the programme today,

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Sir Michael Wilshaw, the former chief inspector

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So it's exactly one week since Theresa May called the snap

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Are you feeling pumped up by the democratic

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I'm afraid I'm not. I like elections. It's not so long ago that

:01:59.:02:07.

we had an election. I can fully understand why the Prime Minister

:02:08.:02:09.

Theresa May wants to go to the country again. She's 24 points ahead

:02:10.:02:16.

in the opinion polls. FI was her I'd public want a huge majority but

:02:17.:02:21.

Italy in terms of what's going to happen. So you didn't buy her like

:02:22.:02:23.

it was about her opposition to Brexit? No, I think she wants a big

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majority. It's a fantastic time to go to the country. At a time when

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the polls in Wales show that the Conservatives are in the lead,

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amazing, and in Scotland, they are forecasting that the Tories will win

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ten seats. There has never been a better time. For our Prime Minister

:02:46.:02:50.

the Conservatives to go to the country. What is going to swing your

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vote? The issues on things like public services as Jeremy Corbyn

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says he will be campaigning on? I think it will be that. I will be

:03:00.:03:03.

interested in what the parties say about Europe because that will

:03:04.:03:07.

capture everyone's attention over the next two years. At the end of

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the day, I, like most other voters, will be interested in the whole

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issues of the health service, education, adult social care, the

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economy. You know, is the party united? The thing about the

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Conservatives, it's a united party where unfortunately the Labour Party

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is not united, with a rather weak leader. We will find out certainly

:03:41.:03:43.

on the subject of Brexit and education in this programme.

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The question for today is which politician has announced

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they are resigning from their party and will stand as an independent

:03:50.:03:52.

At the end of the show Michael will hopefully give us

:03:53.:04:00.

Labour's Shadow Brexit Secretary Keir Starmer has given a keynote

:04:01.:04:06.

speech this morning setting out the party's position on Brexit.

:04:07.:04:10.

This comes as party grandees like Tony Blair and Peter Mandelson

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have criticised the current leadership for not having

:04:15.:04:16.

sufficiently clear policies on Brexit.

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This is what Keir Starmer had to say.

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If elected in June, Labour would scrap the government's

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Brexit White Paper and replace it with a "new Brexit strategy".

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The new strategy would focus on "retaining the benefits

:04:31.:04:34.

of the Single Market and the Customs Union", in order

:04:35.:04:36.

A Labour government would also unilaterally guarantee the rights

:04:37.:04:43.

of EU nationals living in the first on their very first day in office.

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Labour would also drop the Great Repeal Bill.

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That's the government's planned legislation which aims to repeal

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the 1972 European Communities Act and also convert current

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Instead, Labour would bring forward a new EU Rights

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According to Keir Starmer, this bill would safeguard workers' rights

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Keir Starmer is here with us now. Welcome to the Daily Politics. There

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seems to be a lot of talk about process in your speech today. Would

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it be fair to say you and the government have virtually the same

:05:28.:05:29.

policy objectives when it comes to Brexit? No, we are putting jobs and

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the economy first. Prime Minister putting immigration first and that

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is a really fundamental difference. I've never underplayed the

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importance of immigration. I've never suggested the referendum

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didn't have the question of freedom of movement as a major factor. I've

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never suggest that it does not need to change but it's a very old

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situation indeed when immigration is elevated to a priority above the

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economy and drives the prime ministers approach. That is tone and

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emphasis. In terms of policies, what are the differences because if we

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look at your decision to go unilaterally guaranteeing the rights

:06:10.:06:12.

of EU citizens, the government has said that is going to be a priority.

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They back it wholeheartedly so the end result will be both parties

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guaranteeing the rights of EU citizens who are in the UK. There's

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a fundamental difference between unilaterally making the decision on

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day one that's what you're going to do I'm saying we will have it as a

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priority in the negotiations. What upright minister can't do is give

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any guarantee this will be resolved until two years is up. Are you

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suggesting people will be deported? Of course not. In the end, the

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policy objective is the same. It doesn't help to undermine the

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genuine concern millions of people have in this country, we've seen in

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tears etc, simply to revert to, are you saying they are going to be

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deported? Of course not. What is my state is going to be, people say

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pretty much what do I'd do with my children? What are my rights? They

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are genuinely concerned about it. William unilaterally take this

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action from day one or put it in the mix of no guarantee it will be

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resolved for two years? When you say there was no guarantee, the

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implication is that those rights of EU citizens to remain in the UK with

:07:21.:07:25.

the same sorts of life that they have now will not happen under a

:07:26.:07:29.

Tory government in Brexit negotiations when they've made it

:07:30.:07:33.

very, very clear that this is going to be a priority in the negotiations

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so it may not be date one but it could be two months down the line

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and the end result will be the same as yours. Access the Prime Minister

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and David Davis are committed to protecting the rights of EU citizens

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but -- I accept. To underestimate the concern about when this will be

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resolved, and when we unilaterally take it, it's a policy decision open

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to the Prime Minister and she has refused to take it today and she has

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not said she would do it. Just let me complete on this because people

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will say, you're not concerned about UK citizens and the EU but that's

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completely not true. They might not reciprocate of course. I genuinely

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think, from very many conversations I've had across Europe, if we took

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that unilateral action it would be the quickest way to solve this

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impasse over all. Lets look at another policy objective you

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outlined in your speech. You will scrap the government's Brexit White

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Paper and focus on the time the benefits of the single market and

:08:36.:08:39.

the customs union. How is that different to the government's

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negotiating objective which David Davis said as for frictionless trade

:08:43.:08:46.

and having exactly the same benefits as we currently have? What we are

:08:47.:08:51.

saying is businesses must be able to succeed in the future in the way

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they have succeeded in the past. The question is what sort of approach

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are you going to take to achieve that. The government, because it put

:09:00.:09:03.

immigration as its number one priority, is to take virtually all

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other options offer table, so any arrangement with a single market is

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off the table, any arrangement with customs union is offer table. Use

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they want the UK to be in single market? The European Court of

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Justice, even disputes have to be resolved, it off the table. Even

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Europol, agencies I've worked with, which to effective read in

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countering crime, they are all off the priorities are wrong. We are

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saying have the right priorities, leave options on the table. I'm not

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pretending that unperformed single market membership can go

:09:41.:09:44.

hand-in-hand with my acceptance freedom of movement has to change.

:09:45.:09:50.

That's very important because you said you haven't underestimated

:09:51.:09:52.

immigration was an important part of many people, of the whole debate and

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the vote, so does freedom of movement and in your mind under

:09:59.:10:02.

Labour's policy on Brexit? Yes, but it doesn't mean no movement. It's an

:10:03.:10:07.

EU rule and we said it has to come to an end. The status quo has to

:10:08.:10:11.

rent. You said it had to change in your speech. Immigration rules have

:10:12.:10:17.

to change. I have said I don't know how many times in the last six

:10:18.:10:20.

months freedom of movement is coming to an end and the status quo is

:10:21.:10:24.

unsustainable. I have said over and over again. Why is that message not

:10:25.:10:29.

getting across because people aren't completely clear on what he was

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saying and you barely mentioned it in speech today. You say rules have

:10:32.:10:38.

to change, and who did not reiterate that, in your mind, freedom of

:10:39.:10:41.

movement in terms of EU is coming to an end. Because it's obvious. The

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rules must change. I think it's not fair to say it's not consistent that

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I've not been saying it. You have been saying it but not everybody in

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the Labour Party. Let's listen to Peter Mandelson, a senior figure

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from the Labour Party who said this in response to questions about

:11:05.:11:05.

Labour Party policy on Brexit. What is the Labour

:11:06.:11:07.

position on Brexit now? I think you need to wait

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for the manifesto. The problem for the Labour

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Party in this election And that is that they are not,

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I'm afraid, differentiating their position and their policy

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sufficiently from the Government, or haven't done so up until now,

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which they needed to do if they were going to

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offer the voters... A clear choice. That along the lines

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of clear policy differences between the government. Accept the process

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may be different in terms of getting to those objectives you have

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outlined, but Homer, but in terms of policy objectives, but they are

:11:49.:11:50.

pretty much the same. Does the Labour Party want to stay in the

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customs union? You battled through five or six things we said we will

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do pretty much immediately which are a change of position for the

:11:59.:12:01.

government so to say they are precisely the same as contrary to

:12:02.:12:05.

the Danube said at the top of the programme. So far as the customs

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union is concerned, if you are in the manufacturing sector, there is

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concern about coming out of the customs union. The government said

:12:14.:12:16.

we are not prepared to contemplate saying in it or talking about

:12:17.:12:20.

amending it. We say leave it on the table. Maybe we can't stay in it and

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a judgment call will have to be made, but what upright Minister has

:12:25.:12:29.

done is take the options offer table before we started. Reads a sensible

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in negotiations to give yourself maximum flexibility, to be smart

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about how you negotiate. We have ended up with a rigid and reckless

:12:37.:12:42.

approach where viable options have just been swept off the table and

:12:43.:12:47.

are simply not there even to be discussed any more. You talk about

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the customs union. If we don't leave it, what would happen to the ability

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to do free trade deals? I appreciate that but we need to focus on EU

:12:56.:13:01.

trade deal, 44% of the deal, and get the right arrangements. We need to

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look at the customs union as well and see at the end of the exercise

:13:05.:13:07.

where we are on those issues but what the government has done is say,

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we will take the customs union offer table altogether, judgment call when

:13:12.:13:14.

we know what you'll be done with the EU as far as EU trade is concerned.

:13:15.:13:19.

I'm not suggesting that nothing can ever change or should change. What I

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am saying is if you take options offer table you can't even come back

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to them in two years when it makes good sense but that would be the

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position you ended up in. In an election the messages have to be

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clear and it accommodated process. Having a more nuanced message is

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more difficult to get across to voters in an election. It's very

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easy to get across the idea that you're taking all the options offer

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table. What best guarantees the right outcome for our country

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because that matters much more than anything else? Let's look at

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workers' rights. You want to replace the Great Repeal Bill with a new EU

:13:56.:13:58.

rights and protections built. What's the difference apart from the title?

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First, the government has said it will protect workplace rights and

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access that. It's been loose about consumer rights and environmental

:14:09.:14:10.

rights and said it won't accept human rights. They said human

:14:11.:14:16.

rights? The unprotected? Yes, that won't be in their bill. We have to

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look at if there's a Tory government return, with a majority, the

:14:24.:14:28.

temptation to rollback on this and not fully implement these rights

:14:29.:14:33.

will be too great. You don't believe them which is fine for the B don't

:14:34.:14:37.

believe the Tories will commit, but what is the difference between the

:14:38.:14:40.

Great Repeal Bill which is going to take all this EU law and then there

:14:41.:14:43.

will be decision further down the line as to which bits of legislation

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they will keep and your EU rights and protections built if you take

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what the government at face value? This is a clear entrenchment of the

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full list of rights along with the means of enforcing them in the

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current proposals and it is a guarantee against rolling back and

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that guarantee will not be available after the election if there's a Tory

:15:07.:15:11.

majority. Priti Patel and the Cabinet have campaigned on a

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referendum she wanted a half workplace rights, halve social

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rights, people in the Cabinet now. We are right to say there is the

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point of distinction and we want to introduce legislation which would

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entrench these rights and it's a fundamental difference. Thank you

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very much. Speaking earlier this morning,

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Work and Pensions Secretary Damian It's completely incoherent,

:15:38.:15:39.

the Labour position. They're saying that they wouldn't

:15:40.:15:43.

accept no deal, which means that they would have to go

:15:44.:15:49.

into these negotiations saying - whatever happens we will do

:15:50.:15:53.

a deal at the end of it. That's not a strong negotiating

:15:54.:15:56.

stance at the start of what will be a long and complex negotiation

:15:57.:16:00.

and it's characteristic of the weak and incoherent leadership that

:16:01.:16:01.

Jeremy Corbyn provides the Labour Party and indeed

:16:02.:16:05.

the coalition of chaos that lies behind this with the other parties,

:16:06.:16:07.

that they can't come up with a basic negotiating plan that

:16:08.:16:12.

will stand any scrutiny. We're joined now by the Conservative

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MP Dominic Raab and by Alistair Carmichael for the Liberal

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Democrats. Welcome, gentlemen. Before I come to

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you, your impressions there of what Kier Starmer has said? Do you see

:16:23.:16:26.

the clear differences between what Labour is offering in terms of

:16:27.:16:30.

Brexit negotiations, if they were to win the election, compared to the

:16:31.:16:33.

Conservatives? No I don't. I suppose one of the central issues. I speak

:16:34.:16:41.

as a lay person in this and not a politician, is - on something as

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central to the future of this country as the negotiations on

:16:46.:16:48.

Europe, why isn't the leader of the Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn, making

:16:49.:16:51.

a statement about this? Why isn't he talking about this issue? Why has he

:16:52.:16:57.

left it to Kier Starmer? Well he is the Opposition minister for Brexit.

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I suppose when you look back over the referendum issue and the

:17:02.:17:07.

lead-into the referendum, Jeremy Corbyn, the leader of the Labour

:17:08.:17:12.

Party, went AWOL, missing on this, he said the Labour Party was for

:17:13.:17:15.

remaining in Europe but his private position was very, very unclear.

:17:16.:17:21.

Two-thirds of Labour voters z in the end, broadly speaking, back Remain.

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Voters broadly speaking make their decisions on that. All right.

:17:25.:17:29.

Dominic Raab, do you think Labour's Brexit observations, having heard

:17:30.:17:34.

what Kier Starmer said today, are ex-streamly similar to your own in

:17:35.:17:39.

terms of the end gain it a shows that Jeremy Corbyn could be a

:17:40.:17:42.

credible Prime Minister on Brexit Nice try. Kier Starmer has been

:17:43.:17:46.

banging on for a clear detailed plan, the Government has produced

:17:47.:17:51.

one. He said he would scrap it but hold on, we will not tell you what

:17:52.:17:57.

Labour Party will do until after the election. The big issue for any

:17:58.:18:00.

voter, who do you want going into bat in these negotiations with

:18:01.:18:04.

Juncker junction and Merkel, is it the weak leadership of Jeremy Corbyn

:18:05.:18:08.

or the leadership of Theresa May? About know the Tories want to pit

:18:09.:18:18.

Theresa May verses Jeremy Corbyn. But on the plan I cannot see any

:18:19.:18:24.

difference. Kier Starmer wants his Brexit deal to deliver any benefits

:18:25.:18:31.

we have. So the custom union he says he wants to retain them and Kier

:18:32.:18:35.

Starmer is saying the same. There is no difference. The difference is

:18:36.:18:37.

this. You are right to say there is fudge on Labour's part but we have

:18:38.:18:42.

soit a white Paper in detail all of our approach. You have 2,000 words.

:18:43.:18:47.

It could have' been a piece in a paper from Kier Starmer saying -

:18:48.:18:50.

wait until after the election we'll fill in the gaps then. We know the

:18:51.:18:56.

plan that May hae has set out has attracted strong support from the

:18:57.:18:58.

public. They want to see us rally behind the Government, get the best

:18:59.:19:01.

deal and any vote for the Conservatives, to strengthen our

:19:02.:19:05.

chance for getting the best deal for the whole country. But it is the

:19:06.:19:11.

same as Labour, they want to make a unilateral move... Let me finish.

:19:12.:19:15.

You can hammer home your election messages but voters want to know is

:19:16.:19:19.

there anything different in terms of the two parties approach. We don't

:19:20.:19:23.

know that. We do and they are the same as far as people can see.

:19:24.:19:27.

Alistair Carmichael if Theresa May wins this election, will you finally

:19:28.:19:30.

accept she last a mandate it take the UK out of the single market We

:19:31.:19:34.

are looking for our own mandate in this election, that's what the

:19:35.:19:37.

election is all B I think you have made a fair point today. -- is all

:19:38.:19:42.

about. As far as the Labour position is concerned, Kier Starmer has come

:19:43.:19:46.

up with something that is a distinction without a difference,

:19:47.:19:49.

quite frankly. It is going in the same direction. They are being

:19:50.:19:52.

fairly clever about it, because the Labour Party has this difficulty, a

:19:53.:19:56.

big chunk of the seats that they represent in the current Parliament

:19:57.:20:01.

voted to Leave whereas they as a party were in favour of remaining

:20:02.:20:05.

and now they are trying to face both ways. Of course which the Liberal

:20:06.:20:09.

Democrats would never do. As you well know, Jo. But what you have

:20:10.:20:16.

seen today is somebody who is in his heart a pro-European

:20:17.:20:20.

internationalist he having to come forward and preach a fairly

:20:21.:20:24.

nationalist... Not that I want to put words into Labour Party's mouths

:20:25.:20:28.

he would say he is offering something a bit softer than the

:20:29.:20:31.

Conservatives, he has accepted Brexit will what but offered

:20:32.:20:34.

different priorities. In terms of... When it matters. When it mattered in

:20:35.:20:39.

the Houses of Parliament when we were looking at the Bill to trigger

:20:40.:20:44.

Article 50. The Labour Party simply folded in the House of Lords. So you

:20:45.:20:47.

get a commitment today, Kier Starmer saying this is our day 1 commitment

:20:48.:20:50.

to preserve the rights of EU nationals. But when it really

:20:51.:20:55.

mattered Labour peers abstained. Well that is a firm policy position

:20:56.:21:00.

to take and it is different to the Government. But just to be clear,

:21:01.:21:03.

you will accept if Theresa May wins this election, she will have a

:21:04.:21:06.

mandate Turkey tat UK out of the single market and also a mandate it

:21:07.:21:09.

complete the Brexit process without putting the terms of the deal to the

:21:10.:21:23.

people in a second referendum. -- a mandate to take the cut out.

:21:24.:21:28.

I think what is legitimate to talk about is the need for a second vote

:21:29.:21:32.

or a vote on the deal when we get to know it. Actually that will still be

:21:33.:21:36.

right, whatever the outcome of this election. I will still believe that.

:21:37.:21:42.

A referendum on the deal. Theresa May has blames the likes of Alistair

:21:43.:21:50.

Carmichael and Kier Starmer for frustrating the process her

:21:51.:21:53.

negotiating hand and that's why she had to call a snap election. That

:21:54.:21:58.

was bogus. They didn't block Article 50 and there was nothing getting in

:21:59.:22:02.

the way of her negotiating stance. I don't think that's true. How many

:22:03.:22:06.

times were you defeated in Parliament? We managed to get it

:22:07.:22:10.

through but we had nerves jangling. It is not quite the same. And we

:22:11.:22:16.

have a heavy legislative agenda with the Great Repeal Bill. We have heard

:22:17.:22:19.

from Kier Starmer he would scrap it. He would scrap the key thing to take

:22:20.:22:25.

back democratic control he and the Liberal Democrat position - hold on,

:22:26.:22:30.

I listened to you - not only do we represent the referendum, we will

:22:31.:22:33.

not respect the outcome of this referendum. I think the

:22:34.:22:37.

worst-possible outcome will be Jeremy Corbyn propped up by these

:22:38.:22:41.

saboteurs. Jangling nerves is not the same as blocking the process.

:22:42.:22:46.

You tried to. You have a majority at the moment. You know, if others, as

:22:47.:22:51.

Jo has clearly pointed out, you had no difficulty really getting the

:22:52.:22:54.

Article 50 bill through. If your case is strong enough, you should

:22:55.:22:58.

be, with the majority you have got, get it through Parliament. We have a

:22:59.:23:04.

majority 617. I don't think any Government would not want a stronger

:23:05.:23:07.

mandate. You have the DUP on your side as well. You have a healthy

:23:08.:23:11.

working majority. There has been no point where you've really come -

:23:12.:23:14.

thanks to the Labour Party, and the weakness of the Opposition you get

:23:15.:23:18.

from them, there has been no point where you have come under any real

:23:19.:23:21.

threat. There will be a problem for you, for the Liberal Democrats, in

:23:22.:23:24.

areas like the south-west, where at one time you were strongly

:23:25.:23:27.

represented but, of course, many of those areas n those constituencies

:23:28.:23:32.

in the south-west, many people there voted Leave and actually how much

:23:33.:23:35.

chance do you really think you have of winning back those seats? Well

:23:36.:23:39.

all the signals we get coming from the campaigns in the south-west are

:23:40.:23:43.

that there is a real resurgence in Liberal Democrat fortunes down in

:23:44.:23:48.

that neck of the woods. It is as far away of my own constituency where

:23:49.:23:51.

you have been campaigning, that it is possible to get but everything I

:23:52.:23:54.

hear is very positive and of course it has to be said, and I think it

:23:55.:23:57.

would be accepted that elections, whatever you say about them, are

:23:58.:24:00.

never actually on any one single issue. There will always be other

:24:01.:24:04.

local factors that will have a bearing. Before I get you g Dominic

:24:05.:24:11.

Raab. You will know a string of high profile Conservative MPs have

:24:12.:24:13.

withdrawn their support from the Open Britain group because that o

:24:14.:24:22.

willing targeting pro-Brexit MPs, like Anna Soubry and Nicky morgue A

:24:23.:24:25.

do you welcome that? I think it is welcome. They have been thoughtful

:24:26.:24:31.

contributors to the debate albeit from a different perspective from

:24:32.:24:35.

me. I think it is good to rally behind the UK. I welcome T it is for

:24:36.:24:41.

others to worry B I respect Niki and Anna and they have been thoughtful

:24:42.:24:46.

contributors. You do feel the same about Stephen Dorrell. He is

:24:47.:24:51.

supporting the campaign in his role. What do you say to him? I say time

:24:52.:24:56.

for the political haggling toned. Let's get behind the Government and

:24:57.:24:58.

the country in securing the very best deal for the whole country. To

:24:59.:25:02.

be honest with you, these campaign groups or the Liberal Democrats

:25:03.:25:05.

trying to sabotage these negotiations, just make the risk of

:25:06.:25:09.

getting no deal. Are you calling him a saboteur? Is that the term you

:25:10.:25:14.

will use? Because we don't agree with you, doesn't mean we are a

:25:15.:25:18.

saboteur. They are trying to grind the Government to a halt. It is

:25:19.:25:21.

called Opposition. You don't get it from the Labour Party. You do get it

:25:22.:25:25.

from the Liberal Democrats, you clearly don't like it but it is part

:25:26.:25:28.

in being in Government. So suck it up and get on with it. Oh, right,

:25:29.:25:33.

and on that. I will leave you with your two messages.

:25:34.:25:45.

So, this morning three cross-party groups campaigning

:25:46.:25:52.

Let's talk now to one of those involved in today's story,

:25:53.:25:54.

the former Conservative MP Stephen Dorrell, who chairs

:25:55.:25:56.

The Conservative MPs who support Open Britain, were always going to

:25:57.:26:02.

withdraw their support? I do understand why it is difficult, who

:26:03.:26:06.

are carrying the party Labour as official candidates in the election.

:26:07.:26:09.

I understand why that's difficult but I don't think it changes the

:26:10.:26:14.

nature of the argument we are making to voters, which is that this

:26:15.:26:18.

election is unlike any previous elections in my lifetime. In

:26:19.:26:22.

addition to the normal factors you take into account, in a general

:26:23.:26:27.

election vote, that's the party label and also the nature of the

:26:28.:26:30.

candidate locally, we also think there is this hugely important issue

:26:31.:26:34.

of this country's future relationship with Europe, where

:26:35.:26:41.

views do, as a matter of fact, unavoidable fact, cut across party

:26:42.:26:46.

lines and our argument is that individual voters, in making their

:26:47.:26:48.

can choice about the candidate who will be their Member of Parliament,

:26:49.:26:53.

should ask whether this individual will apply on an open-minded basis,

:26:54.:27:01.

the test, during and after the end of the negotiating process, which is

:27:02.:27:04.

the best route forward for Britain. Is it to have leave on the Prime

:27:05.:27:08.

Minister's terms, is it to leave without agreement or is it to remain

:27:09.:27:13.

within the. U? But in the end, Stephen star. -- within the EU. But

:27:14.:27:18.

in the end Stephen Dorrell, we have a first past the post system and

:27:19.:27:23.

people are still elected on party labels, so your campaign is doomed

:27:24.:27:29.

really I don't think it is. Look, everybody knows that individual

:27:30.:27:32.

Members of Parliament havep personal votes that they pick up but because

:27:33.:27:36.

of their record locally, it has nothing to do with their party

:27:37.:27:40.

label. This election, is unlike other elections that in addition to

:27:41.:27:46.

the party label and the local following of Members of Parliament,

:27:47.:27:48.

there is a third dimension to it - what is going to be the attitude to

:27:49.:27:52.

this individual candidate, if elected to the House of Commons, in

:27:53.:27:57.

holding the Government to account through and at the end of this

:27:58.:28:01.

critically important negotiation process? What I want to ensure is

:28:02.:28:07.

that there isn't a one-dimensional view in the House of Commons. I

:28:08.:28:10.

understand that. But I'm talking about the practical logic of your

:28:11.:28:15.

argument. You say you cannot as a Conservative support candidates from

:28:16.:28:18.

your owner party who support Brexit or hard Brexit. Which means you

:28:19.:28:23.

cannot support Mrs May. Well, I'm not a constituent of Mrs May so that

:28:24.:28:34.

issue doesn't arise. Point that I'm seeking to highlight to members of

:28:35.:28:39.

the European Movement, and of course much more generally that when voters

:28:40.:28:43.

cast their vote, yes they are electing a Member of Parliament, a

:28:44.:28:48.

Government I should say, but they are also electing a Member of

:28:49.:28:51.

Parliament who will have this critical duty, during the next

:28:52.:28:53.

Parliament, to hold the Government to account and to insist, as I hope

:28:54.:29:00.

they will, of an open-minded review of where Britain's interests lie in

:29:01.:29:02.

the light of this negotiation. What about your loyalty to the party, to

:29:03.:29:05.

the Conservative Party and the line they are following. If you are going

:29:06.:29:09.

to be targeted Conservative MPs, whom you disagree with on the issue

:29:10.:29:13.

of Brexit, are you actually advocating supporting Liberal

:29:14.:29:17.

Democrats and Labour? I mean that could result in your expulsion from

:29:18.:29:21.

the Conservative Party? Well, my individual position - I don't think

:29:22.:29:25.

matters very much in this. Well it does, you are chairing this

:29:26.:29:28.

movement. What matters is the message to voters that when you are

:29:29.:29:33.

casting your vote, of course as I have already said, I believe Mrs May

:29:34.:29:38.

will be the next Prime Minister, after the election, I hope she is. I

:29:39.:29:42.

hope, also, that the next House of Commons will be made up of people

:29:43.:29:48.

who insist that the negotiating process doesn't simply hark back to

:29:49.:29:53.

the referendum and say - you must accept what we say. But, actually,

:29:54.:29:56.

insists that there is an open-minded review of where Britain's interests

:29:57.:29:59.

lie, when we know what the real choices R Right. What do you --

:30:00.:30:05.

choices are. What do you say, Michael Wilshaw, do you think this

:30:06.:30:06.

campaign will have any traction? valuable I think the voters, when

:30:07.:30:17.

they vote next month, will be looking at a wide range of issues

:30:18.:30:21.

and not just this one. They won't be saying to themselves, is this

:30:22.:30:27.

prospective member of Parliament a softer Brexiteer or a hard

:30:28.:30:32.

Brexiteer? They will vote on a whole range of different issues. I think,

:30:33.:30:36.

you know, the election of Emmanuel Macron in a few weeks' time, and I

:30:37.:30:41.

think that will happen, we don't know yet but we think that's what's

:30:42.:30:46.

going to happen and Angela Merkel in Germany, if that happens and Europe

:30:47.:30:50.

stabilises and the European economy prospers, there's no reason for

:30:51.:30:55.

Europe to give an inch on negotiations and that could spell

:30:56.:30:58.

bad news for Britain, bad news for trade and all the rest of it. And I

:30:59.:31:05.

think if things go badly in negotiations there is every reason

:31:06.:31:07.

to go back to the country. I would support that move. Support the

:31:08.:31:14.

Liberal Democrats them? If negotiations go badly for Britain

:31:15.:31:17.

than I think that people need to look at it and vote again. Stephen

:31:18.:31:19.

Borel, thank you very much. Today, as Theresa May visits south

:31:20.:31:21.

Wales on the campaign trail, up in the north of the nation

:31:22.:31:24.

Plaid Cymru is officially launching their campaign saying

:31:25.:31:27.

they are the only party who can defend Wales as the UK heads

:31:28.:31:29.

into Brexit negotiations. Their leader Leanne Woods

:31:30.:31:31.

joins us from Bangor. Welcome back to the programme. You

:31:32.:31:42.

said you are in defensive mode. Sounds like your party is on the

:31:43.:31:48.

back foot? The country that I live in, Wales, faces some serious

:31:49.:31:52.

dangers in the coming years as the Brexit negotiations unfold. If we

:31:53.:31:57.

are pulled out of the single market there are real threats to jobs and

:31:58.:32:03.

to people's livelihoods and there is even you could argue, a threat to

:32:04.:32:08.

the existence of our very nation. This is about survival for us. We

:32:09.:32:12.

have to defend what we have, we believe the Tories want to take

:32:13.:32:19.

powers away from our National Assembly and so their selection for

:32:20.:32:23.

us is all about defending Wales. You said it's a threat to the survival

:32:24.:32:27.

of Wales. Do you back the case of a Progressive alliance to stop the 70s

:32:28.:32:33.

winning seats in Wales? I've previously said we should do all we

:32:34.:32:36.

can to reduce the numbers of seats the Tories should be able to win in

:32:37.:32:40.

Wales. We need to increase the numbers of Plaid Cymru MPs and we

:32:41.:32:45.

need to reduce the number of Tory MPs. My problem is that, since the

:32:46.:32:52.

Brexit referendum, Labour has failed to stand up for Wales and have been

:32:53.:32:55.

too interested in their own infighting and their own divisions

:32:56.:32:59.

to stand up for the Welsh national interests. So you would not do a

:33:00.:33:04.

deal with Labour? The Green party, the Lib Dems in Wales, to keep out

:33:05.:33:09.

the Tories? I have previously suggested cooperation to do that,

:33:10.:33:15.

and that idea has not gone anywhere, but now we have to focus on making

:33:16.:33:20.

sure that this election returns a maximum number of Plaid Cymru MPs

:33:21.:33:23.

because that's the only way Wales will have a strong voice in

:33:24.:33:27.

Westminster after the election. If you look at the latest opinion poll

:33:28.:33:31.

which I'm sure you have seen, it was pretty startling in terms of how the

:33:32.:33:37.

Conservatives might do in Wales, it indicated they might get a majority

:33:38.:33:41.

for the first time in something like over 100 years. Isn't it the best

:33:42.:33:45.

chance to stop the Brexit deal and save Wales actually getting in with

:33:46.:33:50.

Labour to make sure the Tories don't win any more seats? The Tories are

:33:51.:33:55.

on a roll. A poll which came out yesterday shows that they are ahead.

:33:56.:33:59.

We have got six weeks to go before the end of this election. People in

:34:00.:34:03.

Wales would do well to remember the Tories record. I grew up in the

:34:04.:34:08.

valleys in the 1980s. Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister and she

:34:09.:34:12.

decimated the coal industry. Today, we are still paying the price for

:34:13.:34:15.

that and we have had Labour representation for many, many years

:34:16.:34:21.

and they have failed to pull us out of the economic mess we have been in

:34:22.:34:25.

and the Tories now with an increased mandate risk making things even

:34:26.:34:31.

worse. Why are they capitalising on Labour's difficulties and struggled

:34:32.:34:36.

and not you? We have yet to have the election campaign yet. There has

:34:37.:34:41.

been lots of problems with polls in recent times. There's a real poll on

:34:42.:34:45.

May the 4th, Plaid Cymru is looking to do well in a number of areas. And

:34:46.:34:49.

so it is that one I'm more interested in more than anything

:34:50.:34:53.

else. You are worried about Brexit the gauche Asians but Wales did

:34:54.:34:58.

vote, albeit by a small majority, to leave. That makes it difficult for

:34:59.:35:02.

you in this campaign, doesn't it? Yes but people didn't vote to lose

:35:03.:35:08.

our funding, we did not vote to lose jobs and put those jobs at risk.

:35:09.:35:14.

People did not vote for a hard, Tory extreme Brexit. If that poll becomes

:35:15.:35:17.

true, that's exactly what they will be voting for in your mind, if they

:35:18.:35:23.

do actually put a cross next to the Conservatives, and they become the

:35:24.:35:27.

biggest party, will you accept that is what Wales wants? That's exactly

:35:28.:35:32.

why people should not vote Conservative, it risks people's

:35:33.:35:34.

livelihoods, and I would say there is a better option for all of those

:35:35.:35:40.

Labour voters who are fed up with being taken advantage of if you like

:35:41.:35:44.

by the party. Labour have accepted people's votes, you could have

:35:45.:35:50.

weighed Labour's votes in the valleys of Wales in the past and

:35:51.:35:58.

people have moved away because they see they are unable to form any kind

:35:59.:36:02.

of a government so it Plaid Cymru's opportunity now and it's only as who

:36:03.:36:07.

will stand up and defend Wales. Leanne Wood is, thank you very much.

:36:08.:36:09.

Now I need to watch my Ps and Qs because I've got

:36:10.:36:12.

Until last year, Sir Michael Wilshaw was the Chief Inspector

:36:13.:36:17.

So he ought to know a thing or two about what makes a good school.

:36:18.:36:25.

But some have questioned whether the watchdog

:36:26.:36:29.

he used to head up, Ofsted, has the right approach.

:36:30.:36:31.

All parents want to give their kids a head start in life.

:36:32.:36:35.

But it's not always a level playing field.

:36:36.:36:37.

I went to one in Kent where, instead of a school bell,

:36:38.:36:44.

they play Vivaldi so pupils know how long they've got to get

:36:45.:36:47.

So three years ago the headline figure of a number of GCSEs,

:36:48.:36:54.

including English, maths, C and above, they got 24%

:36:55.:36:58.

and last summer we got 56%, which is rapid and radical actual

:36:59.:37:03.

increase in results in just three years.

:37:04.:37:06.

As well as hiking up exam results, the school became an academy in 2013

:37:07.:37:13.

also received a good rating from Ofsted following its most

:37:14.:37:15.

So is that what a school needs to make the grade?

:37:16.:37:20.

The Ofsted report and the results don't tell the full story.

:37:21.:37:24.

There's lots and lots of elements of course.

:37:25.:37:26.

Reputation can be double-edged because good reputations can linger

:37:27.:37:31.

when their sell by dates have gone and poor reputation can linger

:37:32.:37:34.

when the school has been transformed like we have.

:37:35.:37:39.

There's the ease with which you can recruit teachers and something

:37:40.:37:41.

that is important to me and I've said this from day one is that

:37:42.:37:45.

children enjoy coming to school and feel safe and happy in school.

:37:46.:37:50.

Ofsted inspectors do now take more factors into account when assessing

:37:51.:37:54.

and rating but some experts say there is an inherent unfairness

:37:55.:37:57.

against schools whose pupils come from more challenging backgrounds.

:37:58.:38:03.

If you're focusing on schools getting a high number of pupils

:38:04.:38:05.

with GCSE results and that being closely linked with Ofsted

:38:06.:38:08.

If you're more interested in the rate of progress pupils

:38:09.:38:12.

are making and their performance in context taking into account

:38:13.:38:15.

levels of disadvantaged and so on, it would suggest from the data that

:38:16.:38:19.

Ofsted outcomes at the moment are unfair.

:38:20.:38:23.

When you start talking about unfairness, you're in danger

:38:24.:38:25.

of becoming a bit bleaty and making excuses but I'm not.

:38:26.:38:29.

But as they say, I'd just post the question,

:38:30.:38:31.

to judge one school which has a very, very different make-up

:38:32.:38:36.

in terms of the background and the affluence and the support

:38:37.:38:39.

of the families against a school where it is radically different,

:38:40.:38:44.

I just think it should have some questions raised.

:38:45.:38:49.

You need to think about questions that, when proved, you can ask

:38:50.:38:52.

But maybe it's the pupils who have the answer

:38:53.:38:56.

You should be able to share your opinions with teachers

:38:57.:39:01.

I think the teachers need to push you and make you drive

:39:02.:39:06.

and take into consideration what your ambitions

:39:07.:39:08.

are and what you aspire to be after what you do

:39:09.:39:12.

Strict teachers can be annoying and some students find them annoying

:39:13.:39:18.

but it's best to get it over with because sometimes when you're

:39:19.:39:21.

older and you progress, you will have bosses you don't

:39:22.:39:23.

And maybe that's another measure, learning those valuable

:39:24.:39:28.

So very wise, those pupils in that film.

:39:29.:39:40.

And Sir Michael Wilshaw, former Chief Inspector

:39:41.:39:43.

of Schools in England, is still with me.

:39:44.:39:45.

Do you accept the point it is unfair for all schools to be judged by the

:39:46.:39:49.

same measures when they come from different parts of the country and

:39:50.:39:53.

have very different experiences in terms of deprivation and wealth?

:39:54.:39:56.

They are not judged by the same measures. Interesting looking at

:39:57.:40:01.

that school in Kent, I looked at the GCSE scores, 56%, quite good, and

:40:02.:40:07.

the judgment of Ofsted was good, but it is below the national average,

:40:08.:40:12.

56%. The reason why inspectors judge the school to be good is because we

:40:13.:40:15.

looked at the intake at the School, looked at the starting point is the

:40:16.:40:19.

children who go to the school and we measure the progress that those

:40:20.:40:24.

children make the starting points. So you are focusing on added value?

:40:25.:40:31.

Yes, all our judgment based on the progress, not just the outcome but

:40:32.:40:34.

the progress children the starting points to end points and we

:40:35.:40:39.

recognise that some schools are in tough challenging areas and that

:40:40.:40:44.

schools and head teachers and teachers have to work that much

:40:45.:40:47.

harder than in other areas. We judge progress more than anything else. Do

:40:48.:40:52.

you then want to hit back at criticism is coming your way from

:40:53.:40:57.

teaching unions saying that Ofsted was very demoralising for teachers

:40:58.:40:59.

in those tough areas where they were dealing with many pupils from a very

:41:00.:41:05.

low base? I've been around a long time, a teacher and a headteacher

:41:06.:41:08.

and I remember what standards were like in the 70s and the 80s and 90s

:41:09.:41:14.

before Ofsted came into being in 1992. Standards were absolutely

:41:15.:41:19.

dire. In London, look at London now, and now London is doing

:41:20.:41:23.

exceptionally well. Schools are doing better because a better

:41:24.:41:26.

teaching, leadership, but primarily because of accountability. The

:41:27.:41:32.

accountability of inspection, league tables, publication of results and

:41:33.:41:36.

so on and it's quite interesting, you had a piece on Wales, and what's

:41:37.:41:41.

happening in terms of Brexit, the Welsh education system is tanking

:41:42.:41:44.

compared to the progress England is making. One of the reasons is

:41:45.:41:49.

because the Welsh government took away accountability, results, they

:41:50.:41:55.

did not publish results, they took away league tables, and they are

:41:56.:42:00.

rapidly reintroducing those measures now and the Welsh performance is

:42:01.:42:07.

absolutely terrible. I suspect a lot of the people in Wales are not

:42:08.:42:11.

voting for Labour because of what they did to education. What about

:42:12.:42:15.

funding? How much of an influence is funding from government in terms of

:42:16.:42:19.

outcomes? The Institute for Fiscal Studies says per pupil is likely to

:42:20.:42:25.

fall by about 8% in real terms over the next few years and what will

:42:26.:42:30.

that do to add comes and results? Over the last 20 years, funding has

:42:31.:42:33.

been pretty generous to school budgets and they have been ring

:42:34.:42:38.

fenced. The government... Is that why they have done well? Partly for

:42:39.:42:44.

that reason, but I think the government is right to rebalance the

:42:45.:42:49.

budget formula. If you look at somewhere like Barnsley, which is

:42:50.:42:54.

underperforming, a deprived area, they get 50% less funding in

:42:55.:42:58.

secondary schools than Hackney, where rye was a headteacher. That

:42:59.:43:02.

cannot be right. There will be transitional problems between one

:43:03.:43:09.

family and another. Having said that, the government needs to keep

:43:10.:43:14.

an eye on where that 8% cut in the budget is in real terms not cash

:43:15.:43:16.

terms. Let's leave it there. Staying with education,

:43:17.:43:21.

one of the policies likely to be in the Conservatives' election

:43:22.:43:23.

manifesto is the creation of more grammar schools,

:43:24.:43:25.

something our guest of the day Michael Wilshaw isn't

:43:26.:43:27.

very happy about. Since becoming Prime Minister,

:43:28.:43:29.

Theresa May has pushed for more Here she is last

:43:30.:43:31.

year explaining why. We know that grammar schools

:43:32.:43:34.

are hugely popular with parents. We know they are good

:43:35.:43:36.

for the pupils that attend them. Indeed, the attainment gap

:43:37.:43:39.

between rich and poor pupils is reduced to almost zero

:43:40.:43:42.

for children in selective schools. And we know that

:43:43.:43:47.

they want to expand. They provide a stretching education

:43:48.:43:50.

for the most academically able, regardless of their background

:43:51.:43:53.

and they deliver In fact, 99% of existing

:43:54.:43:55.

selective schools are rated 80% are outstanding,

:43:56.:44:00.

compared with just 20% So we help no one, not least those

:44:01.:44:04.

who can't afford to move house or pay for a private education,

:44:05.:44:11.

by saying to parents who want a selective education

:44:12.:44:14.

for their child that we won't let There is nothing meritocratic

:44:15.:44:16.

about standing in the way of giving our most academically

:44:17.:44:21.

gifted children the specialist and tailored support that can enable

:44:22.:44:24.

them to fulfil their potential. And the Conservative MP

:44:25.:44:29.

Graham Brady, who chairs the backbench Conservative 1922

:44:30.:44:32.

committee, is here. Welcome back to the Daily Politics.

:44:33.:44:44.

Apart from anecdotal, what actual hard evidence is there a grammar

:44:45.:44:48.

schools help overall standards or social mobility? I think there's a

:44:49.:44:51.

huge amount of evidence, if you look at the performance of education

:44:52.:44:57.

authorities as a whole, then of those top ten in GCSE results, seven

:44:58.:45:01.

out of ten are party selective and at A-level, eight out the top ten

:45:02.:45:05.

are party selective, and if you look at those local authorities which are

:45:06.:45:13.

doing best, they get children into higher education institutions, nine

:45:14.:45:17.

out of ten. So there is hard evidence to back up the expansion of

:45:18.:45:18.

grammar schools? The English education system, is

:45:19.:45:35.

doing better than the Northern Irish system which has a selective system.

:45:36.:45:39.

Has grammar schools. If you look at Buckinghamshire and Graham will know

:45:40.:45:43.

this, we debated this issue a few weeks ago. If you look at

:45:44.:45:48.

Buckinghamshire which has a selective system, something like 54%

:45:49.:45:53.

of secondary schools which are not selective are either in special

:45:54.:45:55.

measures or are requiring improvement. And you read across

:45:56.:46:00.

from those statistics to Kent which has a selective system, to Sutton,

:46:01.:46:05.

to Southend where they have grammar schools you see those youngsters who

:46:06.:46:09.

don't go to the grammar schools doing incredibly badly in what are

:46:10.:46:13.

secondary modern schools. Well there is the evidence that it does not

:46:14.:46:20.

help pupils who are on free school meals, whatever the measure you want

:46:21.:46:24.

to use, to raise their standards or improve social mobility. Michael's

:46:25.:46:27.

concerns is about the quality of the other schools and I think that's

:46:28.:46:29.

probably where he should be focussing his concerns. If you look

:46:30.:46:31.

at transferred the area which I represent, which I think has the

:46:32.:46:36.

best state education in the country, it is not just the grammar schools

:46:37.:46:39.

that are getting phenomenally good results, it is the high schools.

:46:40.:46:42.

They would be getting average results from the country even

:46:43.:46:48.

without the grammar schools. Trafford is an of a fluent area. It

:46:49.:46:51.

is very mixed. Let me quote the figures to you. If you look at

:46:52.:46:55.

pupils on free school meals what percentage of them are at the

:46:56.:46:58.

grammar schools? Relatively low percentage.

:46:59.:47:08.

2.5 one of the grammars grammars and 6% in another. There is a variety

:47:09.:47:16.

across different schools but if you look and Michael pensioned this, if

:47:17.:47:20.

you look at Northern Ireland, it has 70% of pupil on free school meals

:47:21.:47:25.

getting good GCSEs results. Why hasn't that happened in Trafford.

:47:26.:47:31.

You picked Stretford but 2.5% in Altrincham grammar. Hang on, this is

:47:32.:47:35.

the evidence against this argument that it helps social mobility. The

:47:36.:47:39.

figures show less than 3% of children in grammar schools are on

:47:40.:47:43.

free school meals compared it 18% of children in the same area. I'm in

:47:44.:47:47.

favour of grammar schools doing more to encourage people to come in and

:47:48.:47:50.

take the test. One of the biggest reasons I think where there has been

:47:51.:47:55.

a move backwards in this decade is that the test is no longer taken

:47:56.:47:58.

universally, it is largely self-selecting. I want far more

:47:59.:48:02.

people taking the test to #345ik sure we get all of the children. Is

:48:03.:48:06.

the solution more grammars schools and then you would help more people

:48:07.:48:09.

from backgrounds. No, it isn't. I mentioned this when I debated this

:48:10.:48:13.

issue with Graham some weeks ago. The Conservatives are made a big

:48:14.:48:16.

difference to standards, actually. You know. The introduction of

:48:17.:48:22.

academies and free schools, tougher testing, a tougher curriculum, and

:48:23.:48:27.

so on, has made a big ditches that's why English standards apart from

:48:28.:48:30.

Ofsted and accountability, are going up. Why now, throw a spanner in the

:48:31.:48:35.

works of your own policies actually? I wouldn't. I'm happy to take all of

:48:36.:48:40.

the plaudits that Sir Michael wants to give for the Conservative

:48:41.:48:42.

education policy but there is a fundamental point here. I think that

:48:43.:48:46.

the choice of schools, the kind of schools that should be available

:48:47.:48:49.

should really be there for parent. I don't think it is for politicians or

:48:50.:48:54.

even for former Chief Inspectors of schools to decide what kind of

:48:55.:48:56.

schools should be available to people. There is real demand. #r5e8

:48:57.:49:00.

evidence that they work and think it is right we open that up when people

:49:01.:49:05.

want them. But they would argue they only work for a #2350u people would

:49:06.:49:09.

you like to see grammar schools in every county? I would like to see

:49:10.:49:13.

them where there is demand. I never said I would force it. Middle class

:49:14.:49:21.

parents who pay for a tutor. You are making a big assumption. The proof

:49:22.:49:24.

is in the people that go to the grammar schools that exist. The

:49:25.:49:29.

grammar schools that remain tend for more in the more affluent areas. I

:49:30.:49:33.

would love to see state grammar schools in the big urban areas and

:49:34.:49:37.

more deprived areas T would be a starting point for the policy. Would

:49:38.:49:42.

it add to the improved standings you are talking about? To tell a

:49:43.:49:47.

youngster at 10 or 11 that they are a success or failure and that their

:49:48.:49:51.

whole future depends on what happens on one day in one test I think is a

:49:52.:49:58.

big, big mistake. I mention one student because I taught Bobby

:49:59.:50:02.

Seeing you will, in the University Challenge and he was captain of

:50:03.:50:08.

Emmanuel. A boy Iing taught. Came from a very poor part of south-east

:50:09.:50:12.

London. He didn't - and if you discuss this with him, he didn't

:50:13.:50:16.

start to show his mettle until he was in year 8, 9 when he was 12 or

:50:17.:50:20.

13. Youngsters progress at ditch rates and to say sto a youngster at

:50:21.:50:25.

10 - that's t you are going a second class school because you didn't pass

:50:26.:50:29.

the 11-plus. Nobody should be sent to a second class school I'm open to

:50:30.:50:32.

the point of which schools select. Whether it is at 11 or 14 or

:50:33.:50:36.

wherever it might be, that's something we can look at but the

:50:37.:50:44.

crucial thing Hooker is that grammar schools are not the whole of the

:50:45.:50:55.

storey. As long as the high schools are also high 46 performing schools

:50:56.:51:01.

as they are in Trafford. If you are taking pupils away from the schools

:51:02.:51:05.

in the same y you are not going to help. In Trafford, the performance

:51:06.:51:08.

of high schools, it drives high standards. It is not as we have

:51:09.:51:11.

heard throughout the rest of the country, when you look like areas

:51:12.:51:13.

throughout Buckinghamshire, for example, you are just going to

:51:14.:51:16.

dilute the potential. The drive should be to raise the standard of

:51:17.:51:20.

the other schools and the other side of the coin which is critically

:51:21.:51:23.

important as well and I'm so pleased to hear Philip Hammond introducing

:51:24.:51:25.

this, the introduction of tech levels, something we have been bad

:51:26.:51:29.

at, I'm delighted that Theresa May is moving forward with grammar

:51:30.:51:31.

schools, where people want them but also with a new initiative to help

:51:32.:51:34.

higher quality technical education, it is the right kind of schooling

:51:35.:51:40.

for each child. Graham Brady, thank you very much.

:51:41.:51:41.

London is home to some of the world's super-rich.

:51:42.:51:43.

But for too long, according to campaigners, the capital's been

:51:44.:51:46.

a haven for corrupt individuals from overseas who buy assets

:51:47.:51:48.

A bill being debated in the Lords today aims to clamp down on corrupt

:51:49.:51:55.

It's one of the handful of pieces of legislation being pushed

:51:56.:51:59.

But does parliament really have the political will

:52:00.:52:03.

They buy luxury London property and educate their children at our

:52:04.:52:11.

Among the capital's wealthy elite are individuals who use the proceeds

:52:12.:52:20.

of criminal activities abroad to finance a lavish

:52:21.:52:22.

It was inspired by a whistleblower from Russia.

:52:23.:52:38.

Lawyer Sergei Magnitsky alleged that a circle of Russian interior and tax

:52:39.:52:48.

ministry officials had conspired in a $230 million tax fraud scheme.

:52:49.:52:51.

He uncovered evidence which appeared to show state officials had enabled

:52:52.:52:53.

vast sums to be stolen from the public purse.

:52:54.:52:54.

But he was imprisoned and allegedly beaten to death.

:52:55.:52:59.

Lawyer Sergei Magnitsky had been tortured and murdered

:53:00.:53:02.

We've been trying to pursue justice for him in the last

:53:03.:53:06.

$30 million allegedly from the Magnitsky case has now

:53:07.:53:11.

?41,000 was spent here at this couture wedding dress

:53:12.:53:14.

?115,000 was paid to Harrods Estates, this luxury

:53:15.:53:18.

And ?20,000 in fees paid to this private school.

:53:19.:53:26.

Nobody had ever been prosecuted in Russia.

:53:27.:53:28.

They've all been allowed to keep their money and many have

:53:29.:53:30.

Investigators say billions of pounds of assets in the UK are bought

:53:31.:53:35.

by foreign officials from corrupt regimes and even dictators.

:53:36.:53:41.

Bill Browder has campaigned to get governments around

:53:42.:53:43.

Imposing new sanctions here in Britain against rich Russian

:53:44.:53:56.

officials could have repercussions for the UK's relationship

:53:57.:53:58.

with Russia at the highest levels of the Putin regime.

:53:59.:54:01.

London has been a haven for bad guys from all over the world for human

:54:02.:54:05.

rights violators and other kleptocrats and the reason

:54:06.:54:07.

it is is because there has not been any consequence to that.

:54:08.:54:16.

Nobody's lost their assets, nobody's been arrested.

:54:17.:54:18.

According to the National Crime Agency, as much as ?100 billion

:54:19.:54:22.

of illicitly-gained wealth is laundered through

:54:23.:54:28.

Under the current system, relatively few assets are seized.

:54:29.:54:32.

The Criminal Finances Bill will introduce Unexplained Wealth Orders.

:54:33.:54:34.

When a person is suspected of being involved in serious crime

:54:35.:54:36.

or human rights abuses abroad, the High Court will be able to order

:54:37.:54:45.

them to explain the origin of assets that appear disproportionate

:54:46.:54:47.

The order itself will be a very powerful investigatory

:54:48.:54:53.

It depends on whether the government and the police

:54:54.:54:57.

We've identified over 140 properties in London worth in excess

:54:58.:55:00.

of ?4 billion between them that ought to be prime targets

:55:01.:55:08.

for the Unexplained Wealth Order, but the Home Office's own impact

:55:09.:55:17.

assessment assumes that there will be none of these orders

:55:18.:55:19.

in the first year it becomes law and only on average 20 a year

:55:20.:55:23.

after that, recovering assets they value at just ?6 million.

:55:24.:55:25.

It estimated the UK is only recovering a fraction of the corrupt

:55:26.:55:28.

So can London ever really stop being a place where rich individuals

:55:29.:55:34.

can live alternative lives and hide their past crimes?

:55:35.:55:56.

Back to the election campaign and Theresa May

:55:57.:55:58.

Our correpondent Vicki Young is following the Prime

:55:59.:56:01.

Theresa May believes there are no-go us now from Bridgend.

:56:02.:56:06.

Theresa May believes there are no-go areas from the Conservative. They

:56:07.:56:10.

are upbeat and think they are make gains from Labour. There are various

:56:11.:56:13.

reasons. One is the issue of Brexit. Theresa May wanting to make this

:56:14.:56:19.

election about Brexit. Saying needs a mandate to negotiate a good deal

:56:20.:56:23.

and Wales is a country that voted to leave the EU and there is a sizeable

:56:24.:56:27.

Ukip vote. They polled around 14% in Wales and the Conservatives are

:56:28.:56:31.

confident they can take back quite a lot of former Ukip voters and really

:56:32.:56:36.

harm Labour's chances. Right. I mean the election campaign hasn't

:56:37.:56:39.

officially started, in that sense, what do you Will do you think in the

:56:40.:56:43.

terms of the style of Theresa May as she goes out on the campaign trail,

:56:44.:56:47.

from now on? I think it is going to be interesting as to how much she

:56:48.:56:51.

does meet voters themselves and how much she does dwell on the issue of

:56:52.:56:57.

Brexit. I think here in Wales, in South Wales particularly her

:56:58.:56:59.

argument is going to be broader than that. She's looking at Labour's

:57:00.:57:03.

record here, saying they haven't delivered when it comes to the NHS

:57:04.:57:07.

and schools and I think she might broaden that argument to talk much

:57:08.:57:11.

more and try to appeal to working class voters, to former Labour

:57:12.:57:15.

voters saying and coming forward with ideas about aspiration, about

:57:16.:57:18.

helping people on lower incomes. So it will be interesting to see how

:57:19.:57:23.

that works and even Carwyn Jones, the leader of Labour here in Wales

:57:24.:57:26.

has admitted that they have a mountain to climb. Now Labour don't

:57:27.:57:30.

think it is going to be totally disastrous for them here but

:57:31.:57:34.

certainly Labour MPs are pretty concerned that that the Tories could

:57:35.:57:37.

be making inroads and if the Conservatives were to win more seats

:57:38.:57:40.

than Labour here in else with a, it would be the first time since

:57:41.:57:46.

91850s, something to think about. That's historic to say the least.

:57:47.:57:51.

Looking at Brexit. The poll has indicated former Labour voters who

:57:52.:57:55.

went to Ukip last time, many of those will switch their vote to the

:57:56.:57:58.

Tories T makes it difficult for Labour to appeal to voters who

:57:59.:58:01.

perhaps voted Leave in the referendum when they are still

:58:02.:58:07.

firmly Remain in Wales. Yes, I think it will mean that in marginal seats,

:58:08.:58:11.

for example, and that of course really does help the Tories, not

:58:12.:58:15.

just here in Wales but places like the South West. It'll help them

:58:16.:58:18.

maybe fend off the Liberal Democrats. So the idea that Theresa

:58:19.:58:21.

May is going out around the country saying - I need this mandate, I need

:58:22.:58:26.

to deliver, and then you have Labour making speeches where they say they

:58:27.:58:30.

accept the referendum result but they do sound reluctant to go along

:58:31.:58:39.

with it, whole heartedly, that's not going to down well in places like

:58:40.:58:41.

this. OK. Thank you very much. There's just time before we go

:58:42.:58:44.

to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was which politician

:58:45.:58:48.

has announced they are resigning from their party and will stand

:58:49.:58:49.

as an Independent candidate Marine Le Pen. It is, well done.

:58:50.:58:55.

Thank you. This is all Roz,

:58:56.:59:09.

she's trying to frame me!

:59:10.:59:15.

Jo Coburn is joined by Sir Michael Wilshaw, the former chief inspector of schools in England.

They take a look at Labour's policy announcements on Brexit and speak to Sir Keir Starmer, Labour's shadow Europe minister.

Plus they examine Theresa May's plans for more grammar schools and improving school standards.


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