24/04/2017 Daily Politics


24/04/2017

Jo Coburn is joined by Nia Griffith and Alistair Burt to take a look at Labour policy on nuclear deterrence and Conservative taxation plans.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:37.:00:38.

Jeremy Corbyn takes his campaign north of the border,

:00:39.:00:42.

but can he reverse Labour's fortunes in Scotland?

:00:43.:00:44.

Meanwhile, the Labour leader is criticised for appearing

:00:45.:00:47.

to question his party's policy on Trident.

:00:48.:00:49.

The Conservatives dub him a risk to national security.

:00:50.:00:55.

Are the Conservatives planning a tax bombshell in the next Parliament?

:00:56.:00:58.

The 2015 manifesto promised not to raise VAT, income tax

:00:59.:01:02.

The polls might make it look clear, So why is everyone talking

:01:03.:01:11.

It's Macron and Le Pen in the final round of the French Presidential

:01:12.:01:19.

election as voters say au revoir to the established

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All that in the next hour and with us for the whole

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of the programme today the Shadow Defence Secretary,

:01:32.:01:34.

Nia Griffith, and the former Conservative minister,

:01:35.:01:38.

First today Jeremy Corbyn is heading to Scotland today to address

:01:39.:01:43.

He will reaffirm Labour's commitment to repeal what he calls

:01:44.:01:47.

the "vicious" Trade Union Act and will say the party will "never,

:01:48.:01:50.

ever apologise" for its close ties to the unions.

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Let's talk to our correspondent, James Shaw, who's in Aviemore.

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We know what he is expected to say, is it going to do anything to

:02:02.:02:09.

Labour's political fortunes in Scotland? That is the question. What

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I think I know this from the bullet points we have heard from what

:02:16.:02:18.

Jeremy Corbyn is going to say, there didn't seem to be anything that was

:02:19.:02:22.

differentiated specifically for Scotland. Note policies tailored to

:02:23.:02:29.

Scotland. It is the message we expect Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour

:02:30.:02:33.

Party to put out across the UK. We have to wonder if it is the right

:02:34.:02:40.

strategy because Scotland is a very different policy than the rest of

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the UK. Different things matter here and there are different political

:02:44.:02:47.

threats. The most obvious of those threats, as far as Labour is

:02:48.:02:52.

concerned is Nicola Sturgeon's Scottish Nationalists party. What

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are the voices saying in labour north of the border? It has to be

:02:56.:03:02.

said, they don't look particularly good. We only have to go back to

:03:03.:03:07.

2015 and the fact Labour lost all but one of their 41 MPs in Scotland.

:03:08.:03:12.

Things really haven't improved since. They got worse during the

:03:13.:03:17.

Scottish elections last year, where they dipped below the Conservatives,

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so they are, according to the polls, in third place. He would think there

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would have to be a serious effort by Labour to make a distinctive and

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persuasive offer to voters in Scotland really for them to make any

:03:32.:03:40.

improvement in the polls they have at the moment. Although there are

:03:41.:03:42.

factors like Brexit, which might make some people lean back towards

:03:43.:03:44.

labour, whereas they happens in the past. As you say, it puts a

:03:45.:03:49.

different I mentioned to the selection from Scotland. To steal a

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phrase from Ruth Davidson, the Tory leader in Scotland, has the Tory

:03:54.:04:00.

party reached its peak, in other words, it is only downwards for the

:04:01.:04:05.

SNP Web both the Tories and Labour could pick up seats and the Liberal

:04:06.:04:10.

Democrats? Ruth Davidson will make that case throughout this campaign.

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She has suggested the election in 2015 is that is when sentiment in

:04:17.:04:20.

favour of independence was at its strongest and she hopes it is ebbing

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away. There are a couple of seats in Scotland where the Conservatives are

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second to the SNP and they will be fighting very hard to try and get

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into first place, to try and claw back some MPs in Scotland, so that

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Ruth Davidson can make the case that they have peaked and there is less

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of a case for an independence referendum. Less of a case for

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Scottish independence, she would argue. James, thank you very much.

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The Defence Secretary, Sir Michael Fallon, says

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Jeremy Corbyn would put Britain's security at risk if he wins

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the general election and becomes Prime Minister.

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Mr Fallon, who has been in Bristol this morning

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at the headquarters of Airbus, attacked the Labour leader

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for calling into question Labour's commitment to the Trident nuclear

:05:04.:05:05.

weapons system and for suggesting he would be reluctant to authorise

:05:06.:05:09.

a drone strike on the leader of the Islamic State terror group.

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Labour want to be the next government.

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himself forward seriously as the next Prime Minister

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somebody who would not authorise strikes against terrorists, who

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wouldn't support our nuclear deterrent, and who would undermine

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So it is very important we do point out this is somebody who

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could be Prime Minister in six weeks' time.

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Mr Fallon was responding to Jeremy Corbyn's appearance

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As well as being asked about how he would deal with Islamic State,

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the Labour leader was also asked if the party's manifesto

:05:43.:05:45.

would include a commitment to renew the Trident nuclear missile system.

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The Shadow Defence Secretary, our guest Nia Griffith,

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had previously said the manifesto would include such a commitment.

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We haven't completed work on the manifesto yet,

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as you would expect less than 100 hours into this

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No, no, we're having that discussion within the Labour Party

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and we will produce our manifesto early in May.

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Do you think killing the leader of Isis would be helpful

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I think the leader of Isis not being around

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would be helpful and I'm no supporter or defender in any way

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whatsoever of Isis, I'm sure you would see,

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but I would also argue that

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the bombing campaign has killed a large

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number of civilians, many of

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whom were virtually prisoners of Isis so you've got to think about

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Jeremy Corbyn. Nia, we're number wiser as to whether the renewal of

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Trident will be in the Labour Party manifesto?

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It will be in the manifesto because that has been our policy and it has

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been confirmed time after time that the Labour Party is committed to the

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Trident policy. Have you made it clear to Jeremy Corbyn? I have, and

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it has been agreed it will be in the manifesto. So are you surprised

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yesterday he said the Labour policy on this might not be in the

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manifesto, in fact he said it hadn't been written. It is firmly our

:07:24.:07:27.

policy and it will be in the manifesto. But the Labour Party

:07:28.:07:31.

leader doesn't agree with you that yet isn't in the manifesto so it

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throws doubt on it. But the important thing is, we have

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reaffirmed clearly, it is part of our policy and we are firmly

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committed to the nuclear deterrent. What was your reaction when you

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heard that yesterday? We know Jeremy Corbyn has had his own personal view

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on these issues. But this is something we have been committed to

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for a long time. In 2007 we set the ball rolling for the renewal of the

:07:57.:08:06.

Trident and we are clear what our policy is. You have had these

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discussions with him presumably, and he is still opposed to it, is that

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sustainable during an election campaign that his views are at odds

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as to the Labour Party policy on this issue? When people vote they

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will be voting for a political policy and it is important they know

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what that policy is. Our policy is clear, we are committed to the

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nuclear deterrent. This would be the first time Labour leader didn't

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agree with something in its own party manifesto? I am setting out

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what our policy is and exactly where we stand on it for the manifesto.

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Should people not be voting for Labour if they want to see Jeremy

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Corbyn as Prime Minister. The important thing is, we are a team,

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we are working as a party and it is not a presidential election, it is

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about who is in government and an election between political parties

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in this country. How can it be a deterrent if Jeremy Corbyn as Prime

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Minister has stated he would never use it in any circumstance, it is no

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longer a deterrent? We are prepared to use it. It is important we are

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clear that you also deal with countries and potential enemies by

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being clear from the outset that you are prepared to use force, that you

:09:25.:09:28.

have forced to back up your negotiations. Nobody wants to use

:09:29.:09:33.

force as a first option. Everybody wants to negotiate first, try to get

:09:34.:09:38.

peaceful settlements. But if you have the option of force,

:09:39.:09:41.

conventional forces initially, but the ultimate deterrent as well, you

:09:42.:09:52.

are more likely to actually sustain peace and security at the end of the

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day. New have said you would use it as a last resort, but Jeremy Corbyn

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has said he won't. And if you win the election, he will be Prime

:09:59.:10:00.

Minister, and it will be him pushing the button, or on this case, not

:10:01.:10:05.

pushing the button. What he said, he will not use a first strike. What we

:10:06.:10:10.

have to be clear about, is we are prepared to use the nuclear

:10:11.:10:14.

deterrent and we are prepared to use it. How is it going to look to

:10:15.:10:18.

voters when you have a party leader who is sticking to the line he has

:10:19.:10:22.

always had and you have a different approach? It is party policy and the

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overwhelming membership of our party support this policy and that is

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where we are. It doesn't matter about party policy if the leader

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will not enact and uphold that party policy? It is important we set out

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what our party policy is so that people do know. But he wouldn't use

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it? It is important people know that we are fully committed to the

:10:47.:10:50.

nuclear deterrent. It doesn't really matter, does it in this instance? We

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know what Jeremy Corbyn's views are, this is a matter of last resort and

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nuclear weapons will probably never be used? Nia has done a remarkable

:11:03.:11:06.

job, as she does all the time honestly trying to put the point of

:11:07.:11:11.

view of where the party is. But it doesn't stack up. You have

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circumstances where the Prime Minister is required to make

:11:16.:11:18.

decisions. The Prime Minister alone has to make those decisions. You

:11:19.:11:22.

cannot go into election with a party policy is one thing or the would-be

:11:23.:11:27.

Prime Minister's stated views are another in circumstances such as

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this. The only deterrent a country has is those who might

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oppose or threaten the country knows exactly where its leadership is in

:11:44.:11:47.

times of crisis. We do not know that, we cannot know that as long as

:11:48.:11:50.

Jeremy Corbyn leads the Labour Party and says what he says. Nia. It is

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important people know where we stand on this and it is important we have

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that deterrent. Are you reassured by Jeremy Corbyn who would be head of

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this country's national security and defence as if Labour wins the

:12:02.:12:06.

election? We are committed to the deterrent and it is our policy and

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in the manifesto. Presumably, he would scrap the Trident renewal as

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Prime Minister? The important issue is we are committed to the nuclear

:12:17.:12:20.

deterrent and we will have a review with the spending commitments in the

:12:21.:12:24.

defence budget and we will have to look carefully, as has every

:12:25.:12:29.

government who have come in before. He did have an opportunity to say

:12:30.:12:34.

that the Trident would stay in place because it is already there, he

:12:35.:12:38.

refused to say that. But I am saying the Trident programme will stay in

:12:39.:12:42.

place and of course we will look at all the other spending commitments.

:12:43.:12:46.

He said he wouldn't necessarily be prepared to use drones to strike on

:12:47.:12:53.

the head of Isis, as the Lee Markham and he has been criticised for that.

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You are a Foreign Office minister and you have to admit when you look

:12:58.:13:01.

at the Middle East now, we have had coalition air strikes, drone attacks

:13:02.:13:05.

on Jihadi John, there hasn't been a removal of the threat of Isis or

:13:06.:13:10.

peace in Syria? There has been significant depletion of the

:13:11.:13:16.

leadership of Isis overtime. They are still there. Significant figures

:13:17.:13:21.

have been killed. If someone poses a threat to the United Kingdom and you

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have an opportunity to remove that threat, it is incumbent on a leader

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to do that. Of course, all the other things about seeking peaceful

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solutions go without being said. We know that, that is what the process

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of diplomacy does all the time. But there are occasions in a conflict

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situation where something arises and an immediate decision is needed and

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something that can affect what is happening on the battlefield and the

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the safety of innocent people can be done, can be achieved. That is why

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the policy of removing leaders of Isis and Al-Qaeda it in the Arabian

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Peninsula, that is wider policy is being followed. It is not a policy

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on its own, it is a policy with other things. Let's move on.

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The Conservative Party chairman, Patrick McLoughlin, has appeared

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to contradict the Chancellor, Philip Hammond, over

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Last week The Chancellor said that commitments made

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in the 2015 manifesto had constrained his "ability to manage

:14:20.:14:21.

Mr Hammond was referring to the so-called tax triple lock

:14:22.:14:25.

in which the Conservatives promised not to make any rises

:14:26.:14:27.

to National Insurance, VAT or income tax.

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Mr Hammond recently had to drop a planned rise in Class 4

:14:30.:14:31.

National Insurance Contributions because it appeared to contradict

:14:32.:14:35.

Mr McLoughlin was asked about this by Andrew

:14:36.:14:39.

Philip Hammond, the Chancellor said this week that your election promise

:14:40.:14:45.

in 2015, it was in your manifesto, not to raise taxes, had

:14:46.:14:49.

tied his hands when it came to managing the economy.

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The simple fact is, what we've got to do,

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is we've got to do the best things for the economy and we will be

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setting out in our manifesto in a few weeks, what the policies

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You don't agree with your Chancellor?

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What Philip was saying is some of the areas he wants

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What the party will do, in its manifesto, it will set out

:15:15.:15:18.

all the issues which we are fighting on, and it will set out very clearly

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the choice we have in this country and that's the important thing.

:15:23.:15:31.

Alistair Burt, should there be the triple tax log in the Conservative

:15:32.:15:34.

manifesto? I think there should be considering

:15:35.:15:44.

protection for pensioners, whether it should remain the same in new

:15:45.:15:48.

circumstances, I don't think... Djurdic be explicit in the way it

:15:49.:15:53.

was in the last manifesto that a Tory government will not put up

:15:54.:15:57.

income tax, VAT or national insurance contributions -- should it

:15:58.:16:02.

be explicit? If you are looking for the next manifesto to be exactly the

:16:03.:16:07.

same as the last... On that issue, should it be there, that explicit

:16:08.:16:12.

commitment? I'm quite sure that what will be in the manifesto is

:16:13.:16:16.

protection for pensioners in the way in which a new government seized

:16:17.:16:20.

that likely. I don't know if the triple lock will be there. I'm not

:16:21.:16:24.

asking you about pensioners, and asking you about taxpayers. The

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triple tax lock, the commitment that the Conservatives made not to

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increase VAT, national insurance... I would have flexibility. You drop

:16:35.:16:41.

it. I would have flexibility because that is what a Chancellor needs but

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the circumstances from this manifesto are different from 2015

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and I don't make taxation policy so I would like a policy that is right

:16:49.:16:52.

for the country and what the government and the Chancellor will

:16:53.:16:55.

propose will set it out in the context of where the economy is

:16:56.:16:59.

going. If it is a contest with any terms of low tax, this is a lower

:17:00.:17:04.

tax party. We will come to the record... You try to put up national

:17:05.:17:10.

insurance contributions which was in direct contravention of the last

:17:11.:17:15.

commitment. The average pay pays ?1000 less than when we came into

:17:16.:17:20.

office, 31 million people have the production altogether. Interns of

:17:21.:17:24.

tax policy, we are absolutely the right place. If it is going to vary

:17:25.:17:28.

from what it was in the past, that is fine. You have made it clear you

:17:29.:17:31.

want flexibility do you agree with Philip Hammond, you don't want that

:17:32.:17:37.

triple tax lock, but you would like to see it dropped but that it would

:17:38.:17:43.

give you flexibility to put up taxes. Flexible the in an economy

:17:44.:17:47.

which would still be a lower tax economy under the Conservative

:17:48.:17:50.

Party. You could put them up. It would give us flexible team in all

:17:51.:17:54.

the centres you need for an economy is growing where growth feeds into

:17:55.:17:59.

revenues. You cannot say at this stage that everything we had in the

:18:00.:18:03.

previous manifesto must automatically be... I'm not saying

:18:04.:18:08.

should be. I'm asking you what is the most effective policy as far as

:18:09.:18:11.

you are concerned in the Conservative policy and you think

:18:12.:18:14.

the triple tax lock was a mistake. I don't think it was a mistake, it was

:18:15.:18:18.

right for that manifesto and it has been followed through but a new

:18:19.:18:21.

manifesto and situation with an election gives a chance for the

:18:22.:18:26.

party to say something. Do you think you could roll out there being any

:18:27.:18:30.

increases in VAT, income tax... Of course I can't. So you can't claim

:18:31.:18:36.

you could be the lower tax party because you could put up taxes. I

:18:37.:18:41.

think if you were to try and assess who might be the lower tax party,

:18:42.:18:44.

you might look at the record and are we not a lower tax party that our

:18:45.:18:49.

rivals and those who would seek to take power? When did you last put up

:18:50.:18:54.

VAT? I can't remember. It was in 2011 and you said you would not do

:18:55.:19:00.

it, but it went up. If the average for those of basic rate income tax

:19:01.:19:05.

lower now than it was in 2010? It is lower, you know is. You promised not

:19:06.:19:10.

to put taxes up, that was the point of the triple tax lock, to promise

:19:11.:19:14.

you would not put up those income taxes. Tax policy has got to take

:19:15.:19:19.

account of what is happening in Ikeme as a whole any government has

:19:20.:19:23.

got the opportunity both to raise and lower element of taxation but it

:19:24.:19:28.

is direct or indirect in order to produce... So it was a mistake in

:19:29.:19:31.

the last manifesto. The Chancellor always need the ability and that

:19:32.:19:37.

constraint it. That policy worked for the time and it was important

:19:38.:19:40.

but of course you want the government that has the ability to

:19:41.:19:47.

change. I understand what it is... It's about trust. I agree with that

:19:48.:19:51.

but if circumstances change and people need to make changes, it is

:19:52.:19:56.

explained and you are able to move forward. If everything is always

:19:57.:20:00.

pinned down, this was in the manifesto, it must never change in

:20:01.:20:04.

the future, we have a new manifesto and we can be judged on that but

:20:05.:20:09.

also on overall tax policy over the past few years which is indisputably

:20:10.:20:13.

lower tax than it was. Let's leave it there for the moment.

:20:14.:20:15.

Now, tactical voting along Brexit lines is the talk of the town

:20:16.:20:18.

The Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall, suggested yesterday that his party

:20:19.:20:23.

may not stand against some MPs who are "good Brexiteers".

:20:24.:20:29.

He gave as examples the Conservative MP David Nuttall

:20:30.:20:34.

And this morning, the Ukip branch in Bournemouth West have said

:20:35.:20:38.

that they will not stand against the sitting

:20:39.:20:40.

They said that because Mr Burns is pro-Brexit, it "does not make

:20:41.:20:44.

Meanwhile, the Liberal Democrat leader, Tim Farron, said yesterday

:20:45.:20:49.

that there are "no circumstances whatsoever" in which his party

:20:50.:20:52.

would enter a coalition with either Labour or the Conservatives.

:20:53.:20:58.

But senior Lib Dem Vince Cable has called the only Green

:20:59.:21:00.

MP, Caroline Lucas, a "good progressive".

:21:01.:21:03.

And he urged Liberal Democrats in Brighton Pavilion to support her.

:21:04.:21:07.

The Green Party supports a so-called "Progressive Alliance" and they've

:21:08.:21:09.

said that they won't stand against the Remain-supporting

:21:10.:21:11.

Labour MP, Rupa Huq, in Ealing Central and Acton.

:21:12.:21:18.

And the former Labour Prime Minister, Tony Blair,

:21:19.:21:24.

He has said that it is a big issue than party allegiance.

:21:25.:21:32.

Joining me now is Matthew Goodwin, professor of politics

:21:33.:21:34.

It is going to be a significant issue? It could be if you look at

:21:35.:21:43.

that you could promise to stand out against good Brexiteers. That could

:21:44.:21:46.

have consequences. If Theresa May wins back half of the YouTube vote,

:21:47.:21:51.

it could bring the 40 or 50 Labour seeped into play -- half of the Ukip

:21:52.:21:58.

vote. The Lib Dems are gambling on the Leave voters do not turn out to

:21:59.:22:03.

take advantage of Remainers. You talked about it being as significant

:22:04.:22:07.

in terms of Ukip not standing against good Brexiteers but some

:22:08.:22:12.

people might say they are all about Brexit and this issue so why

:22:13.:22:15.

withdraw from a seat because the sitting MP is pro-Brexit if they

:22:16.:22:20.

have a whole other manifesto? I suppose what they are returning to

:22:21.:22:26.

is the 2010 fact that Lord Pearson essentially made with the

:22:27.:22:29.

Conservatives which was driven by the goal of ensuring the House of

:22:30.:22:33.

Commons is packed with as many Eurosceptics as possible and Ukip up

:22:34.:22:37.

worrying that if they took 15% of the vote in Chester, for example,

:22:38.:22:42.

they could keep Labour in that seat. I thought they were supposed to be

:22:43.:22:46.

about more than just Brexit. I guess they are. They have been trying to

:22:47.:22:52.

get some traction with this anti-Islam issued in the last few

:22:53.:22:56.

days and talking about electoral reform but the reality, most Ukip

:22:57.:23:01.

followers would concede that their share of the national vote will go

:23:02.:23:06.

down as six or 7%. For Theresa May that has massive consequences, for

:23:07.:23:10.

the Labour Party, in the last three years they have been panicking about

:23:11.:23:14.

the rise of Ukip but I think they have too worried about the collapse

:23:15.:23:18.

of Ukip because those votes going back to the Tories will have all

:23:19.:23:22.

sorts of repercussions. What about the progressive alliance between the

:23:23.:23:26.

greens, the Lib Dems and Labour? Will that only function at a local

:23:27.:23:32.

level where individual agreements are made? I imagine so but I'm not

:23:33.:23:36.

sure it will function at all, we're not seeing the kind of unity you

:23:37.:23:41.

need for that kind of pact to take place with less than 50 days until

:23:42.:23:45.

the election. It is complicated, but if you take the Lib Dems as an

:23:46.:23:49.

example, they are hoping they can give the Tories a bloody nose in the

:23:50.:23:52.

south-west but look at some of the seats. Some have a majority Leave

:23:53.:24:04.

vote so how are they going to get traction in seat where voters are

:24:05.:24:07.

saying, my voting tactically for the Lib Dems or what I really want and

:24:08.:24:10.

what I voted for in the referendum which is Brexit? I'm not sure this

:24:11.:24:12.

is going to be a massive realignment, I think the evidence is

:24:13.:24:15.

mixed. I think we will go from one region to the next thinking, how it

:24:16.:24:20.

did playing out? Has Ukip hit the Tories in more northern seat where

:24:21.:24:25.

voters view the Conservative Party is toxic or the Labour Party in

:24:26.:24:29.

southern seats where they are shifting from Ukip to the

:24:30.:24:34.

Conservatives? Are these suggestions of tactical voting from a position

:24:35.:24:38.

of weakness and desperation or come up with social media, could there be

:24:39.:24:43.

quite a impact, not just the split between Ukip and the Tories but in

:24:44.:24:47.

the left as well? My own view is that it is a big, exciting debate

:24:48.:24:52.

that we get into before an election but it never materialises. A bit

:24:53.:24:57.

like 18 to 24-year-olds turning out to vote to change history, it never

:24:58.:25:01.

really happens. We will have this discussion after the election and

:25:02.:25:04.

find that there was very minimal tactical voting generally. We will

:25:05.:25:11.

see a shift from Ukip to the Conservatives, not so much tactical

:25:12.:25:15.

but expressive, traditional social conservatives coming home if you

:25:16.:25:20.

like, I don't think that is tactical. The Labour Party may find

:25:21.:25:24.

itself getting hit on multiple fronts a really bad day, the

:25:25.:25:28.

desertion back to Theresa May, perhaps a drift to the Lib Dems in

:25:29.:25:32.

some seats but also another tactical decision, I'm staying at home. We

:25:33.:25:36.

will talk more about that. Thank you for coming in.

:25:37.:25:39.

What did you make of Tony Blair saying that the issue but Brexit is

:25:40.:25:44.

more important than party allegiance? I think this election is

:25:45.:25:47.

about many things at the economy will feature strongly, taxation

:25:48.:25:52.

policy will figure strongly and we are clear we will not hit lower and

:25:53.:25:57.

middle income earners. It will be the everyday things as much as

:25:58.:26:01.

anything, I don't think Brexit will be the only topic by any means.

:26:02.:26:05.

Tactical voting could help you, the greens have said they will not stand

:26:06.:26:10.

against the Labour MP, Rupa Huq, and you must welcome that. It is very

:26:11.:26:16.

important that it is only the Labour Party can make an alternative

:26:17.:26:20.

government to the Conservatives and if people want to vote for a

:26:21.:26:23.

possessive -- Progressive party, they have to vote Labour because

:26:24.:26:26.

that is the only way we can deliver change that people want. What about

:26:27.:26:31.

in seat where it might help if you allowed the greens or the Lib Dem

:26:32.:26:34.

and it not be a Tory candidate winning? You would not be in favour

:26:35.:26:39.

of that? It is important people have the choice to vote Labour and we

:26:40.:26:44.

represent the whole country. We have an opportunity to stand in every

:26:45.:26:47.

constituency and we will do. One of the greens keep target seat is

:26:48.:26:54.

Bristol West where the the sitting MP is pro-Remain soap would you then

:26:55.:27:01.

back some sort of pact like that? It is important that people who vote

:27:02.:27:05.

Labour are voting for a Labour government. Green MP does not have

:27:06.:27:09.

enough MPs to make a mini party in Westminster. It is important people

:27:10.:27:15.

understand that Westminster at 650 MPs and you can only have a

:27:16.:27:17.

significant impact and form another government is if you have a large

:27:18.:27:23.

political party. But you could have more seats if you did deals with the

:27:24.:27:28.

Lib Dems and with the Green party and kept Theresa May out of Downing

:27:29.:27:33.

Street. . It is important that we are determined to win the election

:27:34.:27:38.

and as Labour. What do you make about the tactical voting that is

:27:39.:27:42.

being talked about? I agree with Matthew, his talked about an awful

:27:43.:27:46.

lot because it is interesting stuff and part of the democratic process

:27:47.:27:50.

but when push comes to shove, people first weekend to vote in our system

:27:51.:27:55.

knowing that only a vote for their candidate is the most likely thing

:27:56.:27:59.

to get them elected. We have eight straightforward system, the more

:28:00.:28:02.

that your candidate gets, the more likely they are to win. People talk

:28:03.:28:07.

about pacts of the major parties have a vested interest in saying

:28:08.:28:13.

clearly, vote for us. I agreed that people have to realise that the only

:28:14.:28:16.

alternative government is a Labour Party want and that is why they had

:28:17.:28:19.

to vote Conservative to make sure that doesn't happen. We are clear on

:28:20.:28:23.

what people should be doing, they should be voting for us if they want

:28:24.:28:27.

strong, stable leadership which is what we offer. You will welcome the

:28:28.:28:32.

Ukip called the sake you should not stand against good Brexiteers? I

:28:33.:28:35.

welcome the thing that helps a Conservative be elected. We are all

:28:36.:28:41.

very fixed now, now the referendum is out of the way, we are working to

:28:42.:28:45.

make this success, so whether you voted Remain or not, it doesn't

:28:46.:28:50.

matter, what we have to do is commit ourselves as the Prime Minister has

:28:51.:28:54.

said, to making sure that leaving the EU is in the best interests of

:28:55.:28:57.

all of us and that is where the Conservative Party is. I think some

:28:58.:29:00.

people find it difficult to get their heads around that. How

:29:01.:29:04.

difficult will it be for Remain Labour MPs who are in areas where

:29:05.:29:08.

there was a high turnout for Leave? It is very clear what our policy is

:29:09.:29:13.

that we voted for in Article 50 because we of the Democratic vote in

:29:14.:29:18.

the referendum for Brexit but we want to get the best deal we can to

:29:19.:29:23.

ensure we can protect jobs. We want a good rapport with our European

:29:24.:29:28.

neighbours so we can export our goods and keep our factories here

:29:29.:29:29.

and make sure we protect jobs. A Ukip government would explicitly

:29:30.:29:33.

ban Sharia law in Britain. The party has been giving more

:29:34.:29:35.

detail of its integration agenda this morning,

:29:36.:29:38.

after the leader, Paul Nuttall, revealed yesterday that a pledge

:29:39.:29:40.

to ban the burqa would also be Here's the Ukip deputy

:29:41.:29:43.

leader, Peter Whittle. No parallel system should ever be

:29:44.:29:51.

allowed to impinge on the integrity There must be no tolerance

:29:52.:29:54.

of systems which deny The rights of women,

:29:55.:30:00.

for these are the most effected by such practices,

:30:01.:30:06.

should and must extend to all parts of our society regardless

:30:07.:30:15.

of religion or ethnicity. Now the public are

:30:16.:30:17.

rightly alarmed at the growth in Sharia courts

:30:18.:30:18.

and the apparent unwillingness of the political powers to face

:30:19.:30:22.

up to this. I am joined by Margo Parker, Ukip's

:30:23.:30:30.

equality spokesperson. Banning sharia law and sharia

:30:31.:30:42.

courts, they don't have any standing under the British legal system so

:30:43.:30:46.

how are you going to ban them, will you go round and stop them taking

:30:47.:30:51.

place? When we sit down and put this together, which will be part of our

:30:52.:30:57.

manifesto, this will be part of not allowing women to be second-class

:30:58.:31:00.

citizens so they will be represented fairly and only one law of the land.

:31:01.:31:05.

The one law of the land is absolutely supreme. It is supreme.

:31:06.:31:13.

It needs to be clarified. Women that are, for example, perhaps not as

:31:14.:31:19.

loud to have a share of a home, all sorts of things because they are

:31:20.:31:22.

disadvantaged. We must explore this, it has got to be done. How will you

:31:23.:31:29.

do it, how will you stop sharia courts sitting. Today was just a

:31:30.:31:33.

press conference with some small sound bites to tell you this is why

:31:34.:31:39.

we want more integration. We don't want women to be second-class

:31:40.:31:45.

citizens. But all women in this country are under a legal system we

:31:46.:31:50.

all share, whether or not there is a parallel court system that deals

:31:51.:31:54.

with domestic issues like divorce. If they are to be underlined in

:31:55.:32:02.

public in Britain, it has to go through our legal system, so I don't

:32:03.:32:08.

know what will change? A lot of women are disadvantaged by sharia

:32:09.:32:11.

law and we have evidence of that. So we have to make sure women are not

:32:12.:32:15.

subject to being second-class citizens. Paul Nuttall has called

:32:16.:32:21.

the burqa a barrier to integration but wouldn't it be a barrier to a

:32:22.:32:32.

multicultural society? No, you don't have people completely covering

:32:33.:32:37.

their faces working for the BBC. You are against religious freedom? Not

:32:38.:32:47.

at all. Women didn't and were not subjected to cover their faces in

:32:48.:32:52.

Iran, then they have a revolution and women cannot be High Court

:32:53.:32:54.

judges and then they have to cover their face. In Britain when women

:32:55.:33:01.

choose to wear the headscarf, it is their choice. But let me remind you

:33:02.:33:07.

what happened in July the 7th. A man dressed as a woman covered his face

:33:08.:33:12.

and got all the way to Rome so there is a security issue. It is not a

:33:13.:33:18.

barrier to integration? I think it is a barrier to integration. If it

:33:19.:33:24.

is about people'sfaces being covered on CCTV footage, what will you do

:33:25.:33:28.

about people wearing balaclavas, helmets or masks? They cannot in

:33:29.:33:35.

banks. Face covering is banned in France already, it is going to be

:33:36.:33:39.

banned in Germany. It is pending regulation in Austria. Does that

:33:40.:33:45.

make it right? I think it does, I think we are ahead of the curve

:33:46.:33:49.

here, standing of the women and saying, you don't have to do this if

:33:50.:33:53.

it is oppressive just because a man has told you to do it. You are

:33:54.:34:01.

wanting to ban it. Yes we are. Will you be telling women what to do? No,

:34:02.:34:06.

I will be saying that this is religious freedom, you don't have to

:34:07.:34:10.

cover your face because this is what men in a religious order has told

:34:11.:34:16.

you what to do. He want to ban women wearing the veil, you want to ban

:34:17.:34:22.

sharia courts and sharia law, in which way is it not anti-Moslem? It

:34:23.:34:29.

is not anti-Moslem. You could ban the courts the ultraorthodox run but

:34:30.:34:35.

you haven't called for that or any other expressions people might use

:34:36.:34:41.

in terms of their religion, the cross? We have called for

:34:42.:34:46.

integration and not segregation. Their ARC immunities around the

:34:47.:34:49.

country where women are segregated. They don't integrate in society.

:34:50.:34:54.

Perhaps they are not necessarily allow to speak the language. We have

:34:55.:34:59.

all sorts of instances where women are held back. We want them to

:35:00.:35:04.

realise their potential. Alistair Burt, would you support banning the

:35:05.:35:09.

burqa? No, in every society he would not tell people what to wear. There

:35:10.:35:17.

are places where it is part of the procedure where a woman would not be

:35:18.:35:19.

able to be fully covered in court, for example and in other security

:35:20.:35:25.

situations, but you cannot get integration if you tell people what

:35:26.:35:30.

to wear. I agree with Alistair and rather than imposing and dictating

:35:31.:35:34.

and telling communities exactly what Ukip thinks they should do, we are

:35:35.:35:39.

proud we have some Muslim MPs and they are working with the

:35:40.:35:44.

communities. This is on the side of women. Women who have had to have

:35:45.:35:48.

their vote done for them. You have seen this throughout the country

:35:49.:35:52.

where there have been pockets where they have not been allowed to

:35:53.:35:59.

integrate. We have FGM, and a situation for any woman or young

:36:00.:36:03.

child to go through. It has got to stop. There has been no

:36:04.:36:07.

prosecutions. The law is very clear in making sure... Why haven't we

:36:08.:36:14.

prosecuted anybody? The law is there to protect all others and that is

:36:15.:36:19.

the point. Why have we had no prosecutions, they do in France. On

:36:20.:36:25.

the issue of FGM, as I understand, you are proposing the parents of

:36:26.:36:28.

girls who are forced to have that are also prosecuted. That law was

:36:29.:36:38.

extended by David Cameron in 2015. So what are you proposing? Beef it

:36:39.:36:44.

up and make sure you do have prosecutions. It cannot carry on

:36:45.:36:50.

like this. It is shocking that young women are brutalised. How would you

:36:51.:36:55.

go about getting prosecutions? Doctors and health visitors have got

:36:56.:36:59.

to have an examination. There are no prosecutions. The evidence hasn't

:37:00.:37:06.

been brought to court. A couple of weeks back, in the West Midlands

:37:07.:37:11.

there had been a series on television about FGM. On Twitter,

:37:12.:37:15.

somebody from the West Midlands Police said we don't like to

:37:16.:37:18.

interfere with the family system, even though we know this might have

:37:19.:37:24.

happened. It was outrageous. I wrote to the West Midlands Chief Constable

:37:25.:37:29.

and I got a letter back. They must prosecuted vigorously, these

:37:30.:37:33.

actions. It is akin to where domestic violence used to be. It is

:37:34.:37:38.

a domestic, people said. On acceptable. It cannot be right if

:37:39.:37:42.

the law is being broken that any police force allows that to happen.

:37:43.:37:47.

Is it been followed through? When you look at the numbers, they are

:37:48.:37:52.

very high. David Cameron quoted something like over 130,000. It does

:37:53.:37:58.

seem incredible there haven't been prosecutions. Is enough effort being

:37:59.:38:03.

made to follow through? I sincerely hope to. It has risen in public

:38:04.:38:08.

prominence, people were not aware of it a little time ago, so it has to

:38:09.:38:13.

be out there. The answer is make sure people can feel can come

:38:14.:38:21.

forward and not stigmatise them. That is what we need to get the

:38:22.:38:25.

evidence amid the prosecution. What about banning sharia courts and

:38:26.:38:31.

sharia law, so there isn't a parallel legal system in this

:38:32.:38:35.

country? It is not recognised in our law. So the important thing is that

:38:36.:38:43.

we work with the Muslim communities. We have some excellent women Muslim

:38:44.:38:48.

MPs in the Labour Party. So let's make sure that we are working

:38:49.:38:55.

together and we are making sure discrimination in all its forms is

:38:56.:39:02.

eliminated. It absolutely vital we do so. Women's rights must be

:39:03.:39:06.

indivisible in any part of the United Kingdom. Thank you very much.

:39:07.:39:10.

So, we might have our own election to occupy us, but until Theresa May

:39:11.:39:13.

made the surprise announcement last Tuesday, much of our attention

:39:14.:39:16.

was focused on events across the Channel.

:39:17.:39:21.

Last night the 11 candidates in the French Presidential election

:39:22.:39:23.

were whittled down to two: the centrist candidate

:39:24.:39:25.

Emmanuel Macron will face the leader of the Front National,

:39:26.:39:29.

Marine Le Pen, in the final round in a fortnight.

:39:30.:39:32.

Here they are after last night's result.

:39:33.:39:33.

TRANSLATION: Today, Sunday the 23rd of April,

:39:34.:39:35.

As the country is going through an unprecedented

:39:36.:39:39.

moment in its history, marked by terrorism, economic

:39:40.:39:41.

challenges, social suffering of workers and urgent environmental

:39:42.:39:47.

problems, they have responded in the most beautiful way,

:39:48.:39:49.

TRANSLATION: We've made the first step which will take

:39:50.:39:58.

the French people to the Elysee Palace.

:39:59.:40:00.

It confers on me the immense responsibility of defending

:40:01.:40:08.

the French nation, its unity, its security, its culture,

:40:09.:40:13.

He works here in London and is a supporter of Marine Le Pen.

:40:14.:40:33.

Surely it is over her, Fillon is endorsing Emmanuel Macron. If enough

:40:34.:40:43.

of the voters go Emmanuel Macron, he has got it? It is not that clear. We

:40:44.:40:48.

have seen French voters change their minds very quickly in the primary

:40:49.:40:57.

and the Republicans. There is still two weeks to go and there is going

:40:58.:41:02.

to be a debate in about one week where Emmanuel Macron will have to

:41:03.:41:05.

explain his project for fans in front of Marine Le Pen. French

:41:06.:41:10.

people will get a chance, after five years of waiting, to decide if they

:41:11.:41:16.

want to go forward with defending their identity. You are a banker,

:41:17.:41:23.

and some people will say, how are you, who has obviously benefited

:41:24.:41:29.

from globalisation, supporting a woman who is anti-globalisation? I

:41:30.:41:38.

had to leave my country to find my work. It is a minority, there has

:41:39.:41:45.

been millions of jobs destroyed in France. Thousands of women raped and

:41:46.:41:53.

this is the price French people are not prepared to pay. With Marine Le

:41:54.:41:57.

Pen as the President you can go back to France and have a job similar to

:41:58.:42:02.

the one you have here? I will be able to have a decent live in

:42:03.:42:05.

France. I have an education that has been paid for and it doesn't matter

:42:06.:42:14.

how rich I am. You are in favour of her protectionist views and

:42:15.:42:17.

policies? With all this competition from countries with lower social

:42:18.:42:25.

systems which don't respect the work's rights as we do, it is

:42:26.:42:30.

essential we have a state to protect us. One of the things that is

:42:31.:42:35.

interesting, the two candidates have gone against the mainstream

:42:36.:42:40.

candidates, they are painting themselves as the non-establishment

:42:41.:42:43.

candidates. But in a way, Emmanuel Macron doesn't even have a party,

:42:44.:42:47.

isn't he the populist who will ride the wave more than remain the pen

:42:48.:42:53.

who has become more established? It is interesting because I watched the

:42:54.:42:57.

speech of Emmanuel Macron and he painted himself as trying to change

:42:58.:43:01.

the system. I think if you look at the facts, he has been a minister

:43:02.:43:07.

for two years, during which unemployment increased and before

:43:08.:43:10.

that he was an adviser of President Hollande. So his policies were

:43:11.:43:18.

directly inspired by him. The train yourself as an anti-system candidate

:43:19.:43:22.

is hard. You could argue Marine Le Pen has been part of the system for

:43:23.:43:29.

years, as has her party, she has representation at local town hall

:43:30.:43:32.

level and is very much part of the establishment? Do you know any other

:43:33.:43:41.

establishment member who has had their House bombed? No, but I'm

:43:42.:43:45.

trying to say she is part of the political establishment in France,

:43:46.:43:49.

do you not think she is? She is always trying to put the French

:43:50.:43:52.

people ahead of the system, that is why I support her. Were you

:43:53.:43:59.

surprised at how both Francois Fillon and the Socialist candidates

:44:00.:44:02.

are out, the mainstream parties have been voted against? Yes they have,

:44:03.:44:07.

it is an extraordinary situation with the country as apparently as

:44:08.:44:12.

divided into four parts as we have seen from the results. It is not for

:44:13.:44:18.

an outsider to pronounce in terms of individual parties, but the sense of

:44:19.:44:23.

uncertainty in France because of the process, the almost even split

:44:24.:44:27.

between the major blocks. But the two main establishment parties have

:44:28.:44:32.

not gone forward. But we suspect the establishment parties, because of

:44:33.:44:36.

their interest on the issues that they consider important for France

:44:37.:44:39.

may come together and support Emmanuel Macron. It was a terrible

:44:40.:44:45.

showing for the Socialist party in France, you must have felt low

:44:46.:44:49.

watching that? The French system is, they vote once and they can almost

:44:50.:44:54.

experiment, if you like, and see if their candidate can come anywhere.

:44:55.:45:02.

That is what we have seen. The socialist candidate got 6%. They

:45:03.:45:08.

have been looking elsewhere, looking clearly for Emmanuel Macron in this

:45:09.:45:14.

case. I think we will see a coalescence of people coming

:45:15.:45:18.

together to back Mr Macron because he can appeal both to the more

:45:19.:45:25.

left-wing socialist side and also to the business minded right-wing side.

:45:26.:45:28.

I think he will go forward. Thank you for coming in.

:45:29.:45:31.

So let's see what else is happening in The Week Ahead.

:45:32.:45:33.

As we've already heard, both Jeremy Corbyn and Nicola Sturgeon

:45:34.:45:35.

are addressing the Scottish TUC conference today.

:45:36.:45:37.

Wednesday is a big day in the Prime Minister's diary,

:45:38.:45:40.

as it's the last PMQs before parliament dissolves next week.

:45:41.:45:45.

She's also playing host to Jean-Claude Juncker

:45:46.:45:48.

in Downing Street and possibly the EU's chief Brexit

:45:49.:45:50.

Thursday is "Prorogation" or the formal end of

:45:51.:45:54.

It starts the period between the end of one session and the State Opening

:45:55.:46:01.

Not to be confused with dissolving parliament when an election

:46:02.:46:05.

is formally called, which will be next Wednesday.

:46:06.:46:08.

And the week rounds off with the European Council meeting

:46:09.:46:11.

on Saturday where EU Heads of Government are set

:46:12.:46:13.

to agree on the negotiating terms of Brexit talks.

:46:14.:46:17.

We're joined now by Fraser Nelson from the Spectator and Kate Proctor

:46:18.:46:20.

Welcome to both of you. We heard Tony Blair calling for voters to put

:46:21.:46:34.

party allegiance aside and focus more on backing candidates who are

:46:35.:46:38.

Andy Hodd Brexit. How much is tactical voting is going to be

:46:39.:46:42.

present in this election -- antique hard Brexit. Not so much in England.

:46:43.:46:51.

In Scotland there will be a lot of tactical voting anti-nationalist

:46:52.:46:55.

voting because there is another referendum on the cards and anybody

:46:56.:46:58.

who's does not want it is likely to vote for a candidate most likely to

:46:59.:47:03.

stop the SNP. Scotland is where the tactical action will be. Do you

:47:04.:47:08.

agree that this is being done from a position of weakness rather than

:47:09.:47:12.

strength? Tactical voting comes up every time but there is something

:47:13.:47:17.

serious behind this and I think in England it will be the way forward

:47:18.:47:21.

for a lot of people. Speaking to people over the weekend, they are

:47:22.:47:24.

making it their agenda to choose a party they would not normally

:47:25.:47:29.

choose. In terms of the issues, we talk about tax and security, but in

:47:30.:47:36.

last week's PMQs Jeremy Corbyn focused a lot on the debt and

:47:37.:47:39.

deficit. If the economy still going to be centre stage? Not to the same

:47:40.:47:46.

extent. The Conservatives are moving to the left economically, Theresa

:47:47.:47:50.

May is stealing Ed Miliband's plans for up energy ice cap and wants to

:47:51.:47:55.

clear the way for more tax rises as they did in the last budget. The

:47:56.:48:01.

pledge not to raise taxes will vanish in this manifesto for the

:48:02.:48:05.

Tories and they will move towards the Labour Party is economically. I

:48:06.:48:08.

don't think there will be as big a battle ground. She will be teased

:48:09.:48:13.

for stealing Miliband's policies but she will say, if you don't like

:48:14.:48:18.

that, you are you going to vote for? And on energy, she will be teased

:48:19.:48:24.

for that, but in your mind are they literally stealing some of the

:48:25.:48:28.

proposals from Labour? They even said state intervention in the

:48:29.:48:31.

energy market would be a terrible thing. They seem to be doing that a

:48:32.:48:36.

lot at the moment, it is about positioning. I know Theresa May is

:48:37.:48:39.

unlikely to think that Jeremy Corbyn is much of a threat but if you hark

:48:40.:48:46.

back to Miliband's policies, that is where the crossover between Cameron

:48:47.:48:49.

and an Miliband existed previously and Theresa May will go after those

:48:50.:48:53.

policies to get back some of those voters. One of the other policies

:48:54.:48:58.

Labour is committed to is the triple lock on pensions which some people

:48:59.:49:01.

might be surprised about but we're talking about a group of people who

:49:02.:49:05.

do vote. And the Conservatives are yet to confirm that. Will it be in

:49:06.:49:14.

the manifesto? I don't think so, it is a very expensive pledge and it

:49:15.:49:17.

was only in there to bribe pensioners at the last election and

:49:18.:49:20.

it worked and they got a majority but now Theresa May does not need to

:49:21.:49:24.

bribe anybody with Labour as weak as they are. Expensive badges like that

:49:25.:49:30.

and other promises to pensioners will vanish. -- expensive pledges.

:49:31.:49:36.

And it also has done its job. There was a time when pensioner income was

:49:37.:49:41.

below that of the working age but now disposable income is almost the

:49:42.:49:45.

same for pension houses and working age houses so it's time to abolish

:49:46.:49:49.

it. And raising the state pension age is something on the agenda.

:49:50.:49:55.

Interesting to see if that comes up in the manifesto or if it will be

:49:56.:49:58.

kicked into the long grass because raising the state pension age, there

:49:59.:50:01.

was meant to be an announcement on that. Were you surprised that the

:50:02.:50:07.

Labour Party has committed itself to keeping the triple lock on pensions?

:50:08.:50:12.

Not at all. It is hugely expensive and it sounds like the kind of thing

:50:13.:50:17.

they think is a good idea and it is a vote winner, especially those over

:50:18.:50:23.

55 and 16 onwards. It is hugely popular but as evidence has shown,

:50:24.:50:30.

it is financially in viable -- 55 and 60. It will be difficult for

:50:31.:50:36.

them to see it through. And PMQs on Wednesday, what are you expecting?

:50:37.:50:42.

Theresa May is in good form and seems to be relishing this election

:50:43.:50:47.

and she will try to handbag Jeremy Corbyn as much as possible. He might

:50:48.:50:52.

attack her from the right, we have had this effective Tory tax

:50:53.:50:56.

bombshell line from Labour and he might try that again is the strange

:50:57.:50:59.

to see him resorting to it but he does not have that much ammunition.

:51:00.:51:03.

Thank you very much. Enjoy the campaign.

:51:04.:51:04.

Now, on Friday's programme, Laura Perrins from the Conservative

:51:05.:51:06.

Woman website claimed that the Shadow Brexit Secretary,

:51:07.:51:09.

Keir Starmer, sent his children to private school.

:51:10.:51:11.

Keir Starmer says his children go to a local state primary in Camden,

:51:12.:51:16.

Laura Perrins has since issued an apology and we're also happy

:51:17.:51:21.

Now, with the election every political party

:51:22.:51:27.

will be taking a long, hard look at their priorities

:51:28.:51:30.

As they write their manifestos, they'll be trying to decide

:51:31.:51:33.

where to be generous, and where to make savings.

:51:34.:51:35.

When it comes to a government's first duty, the defence

:51:36.:51:38.

of the realm, we spend what is the Nato target -

:51:39.:51:40.

But the writer Andrew Sabisky argues that isn't enough,

:51:41.:51:47.

and is challenging the parties to commit to trebling -

:51:48.:51:49.

This London memorial, honouring the thousands of

:51:50.:52:20.

airmen who died flying Bomber Command in the Second World

:52:21.:52:24.

War, is a magnificent reminder of our glorious

:52:25.:52:26.

But here in the present, decades of funding cuts have

:52:27.:52:30.

But the problem is not just recruitment.

:52:31.:52:43.

We are building aircraft carriers but without the escorts needed

:52:44.:52:46.

The Army has fewer than 200 main battle tanks left and

:52:47.:52:51.

we've lost the capacity to build more.

:52:52.:52:56.

In Iraq and Afghanistan our troops fought bravely but lacked the

:52:57.:52:58.

resources to defeat the insurgencies they faced and had to be bailed

:52:59.:53:01.

At the moment we spend 2% of our national

:53:02.:53:13.

But if we want to be a truly global power, then we

:53:14.:53:19.

And that means increasing the military's budget.

:53:20.:53:30.

On our doorstep, a weak Europe faces the

:53:31.:53:33.

terrifying threat of a resurgent Russia that could conquer our

:53:34.:53:36.

allies, Estonia and Latvia, in just 60 hours.

:53:37.:53:41.

And our Ministry of Defence is not equipped to deal with

:53:42.:53:44.

We are far too reliant on the US, with the unstable

:53:45.:53:52.

A dangerous and uncertain world calls

:53:53.:53:59.

Now that there's an election, I'm challenging the parties to commit to

:54:00.:54:07.

trebling our defence expenditure from 2% to 6% of GDP.

:54:08.:54:10.

Protect our nation, save our military, and spend the six.

:54:11.:54:25.

Well done for timing it with the procession. Why 6%, why not four or

:54:26.:54:41.

five? Could we have lost so much capability over the last few decades

:54:42.:54:47.

and particularly since 2010, the Defence Select Committee report in

:54:48.:54:52.

2016 that since then we had lost 20% of our conventional capabilities.

:54:53.:54:55.

I'm not saying we should spend 6% for ever but maybe for the next five

:54:56.:55:02.

years, a really big boost, some heavy equipment buying and then

:55:03.:55:08.

taper down toward a long-term target of 4%. Let's get reaction to that,

:55:09.:55:14.

do you back that? We are absolutely committed to the 2% spending that

:55:15.:55:18.

Nato requires. That will be in the manifesto. Definitely. Does Jeremy

:55:19.:55:27.

Corbyn support that? He does and has talked about it at the dispatch box

:55:28.:55:31.

and we have talked about in treating B 2% but what we will be doing is

:55:32.:55:36.

not fiddling the figures in the way that I have to say that the

:55:37.:55:39.

Conservatives have done. How have they done that? Trying to include

:55:40.:55:44.

things like pensions as part of that 2%, we want it to be as we can delay

:55:45.:55:49.

did it in 2010 but Andrew highlighted the point that we have

:55:50.:55:54.

spending slashed since the 2010 defence review and that is the

:55:55.:55:58.

problem we have got. You indicated you would like to spend more than

:55:59.:56:03.

2%? How much more? I said we're looking carefully at what we would

:56:04.:56:06.

need to spend and we would want a proper review to look at some of the

:56:07.:56:09.

gaps that Andrew is highlighting and where we might need to put in more

:56:10.:56:15.

money. That might not be enough for you, not even America spends that

:56:16.:56:22.

much of GDP, 6%. White should we? Again, I'm not saying we should do

:56:23.:56:26.

it for ever and it is not a partisan issue, there is plenty of blame for

:56:27.:56:29.

the last Labour government as well as the Tories but because of the

:56:30.:56:32.

capabilities we have lost and we urgently need to restore, such as

:56:33.:56:37.

the fact that we don't have the airborne capabilities to patrol our

:56:38.:56:42.

season against submarines, it is gone. The figures when we get down

:56:43.:56:49.

to it, we spend around 50 billion on defence now, that would put it up to

:56:50.:56:52.

150 billion and it would be bigger than the NHS budget. Where does that

:56:53.:56:58.

extra ?100 billion come from? Are you comfortable with the defences as

:56:59.:57:03.

they are now, particularly as outlined? I'm comfortable that from

:57:04.:57:06.

the time of the last election we increased the commitment to that 2%

:57:07.:57:12.

of GDP and we said the cuts were done and we have an investment

:57:13.:57:16.

programme in machinery and the goods people need and it is stable in

:57:17.:57:21.

company with partners and Nato to go to the sort of figures you are

:57:22.:57:25.

talking about I think is impractical. We have to work with

:57:26.:57:28.

others for our defence capability. It would mean massive cuts to other

:57:29.:57:33.

parts of public spending. It would mean a few. I think certain

:57:34.:57:36.

sacrifices may have to be made particularly by the older generation

:57:37.:57:41.

who are currently recipients of extremely expensive pledges like the

:57:42.:57:47.

triple lock, free NHS prescriptions and so on. In order to fund defences

:57:48.:57:51.

but are you saying we are in a more dangerous world than in the Cold War

:57:52.:57:57.

for example? I wouldn't say it was necessarily less dangerous given the

:57:58.:58:01.

highly unpredictable and unstable leadership in Russia, North Korea

:58:02.:58:05.

and of course the Middle East is a powder keg. You would agree with

:58:06.:58:11.

that? We are living in a dangerous world, whether as dangerous as the

:58:12.:58:16.

Cold War, and there were cuts to defences. You're been accused of the

:58:17.:58:21.

figures. I don't think we did that at all but what we said at the last

:58:22.:58:25.

election was those cuts came to an end, we would go back to the 2% and

:58:26.:58:31.

we make that pledge which people said we would not do but we have

:58:32.:58:34.

done and it means more money is coming into the forces now. It is

:58:35.:58:38.

essential we keep up our defenders and work with others and you need a

:58:39.:58:42.

strong economy to do that. I don't think you would get it by trying to

:58:43.:58:46.

put in as much as you are suggesting. I'm afraid we have run

:58:47.:58:51.

out of time. Thank you for coming in and to you two. From all of us here,

:58:52.:58:55.

goodbye.

:58:56.:58:58.

Jo Coburn is joined by shadow defence secretary Nia Griffith and former Foreign Office minister Alistair Burt. They take a look at Labour's policy on nuclear deterrence and the Conservative's taxation plans.

Plus Jo discusses tactical voting with academic and author Matthew Goodwin, and writer Andrew Sabisky argues that defence spending should be tripled.


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