21/04/2017 Daily Politics


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.


Campaigning in the French presidential election is suspended


after a gunman murdered a policeman in central Paris.


The man is thought to be known to the authorities


Jeremy Corbyn hits the road as he takes his election campaign


on tour, with a warning that school children in England


are being squeezed into classrooms 'like sardines'.


The shadow schools minister joins me live.


Ahead of Brexit talks between Theresa May


and Jean Claude Juncker next week, more details of the EU's negotiation


strategy come to light - including a demand for protection


And at the end of a whirlwind week in politics we've


got our bitesize round-up, in just sixty seconds.


is the Guardian columnist Zoe Williams, and Laura Perrins, who


Let's start with the terror attack in Paris last night and talk


to our correspondent there Hugh Scholfield.


Apart from the fact that it is dreadful that France and Paris has


been hit again, give us the latest. The man has been named camellias


called Karim Cheurfi, he's 39, he lived in the eastern Paris suburbs


and things have come out this morning about his past. Not for the


first time, we learn that this man has a criminal record, back in the


early 2000s he was involved in a shooting of police officers for


which he served a long time in prison, it was a criminal affair, he


shot out some officers who chased him when he was in a stolen car, he


was caught and served time in prison. More recently he had come


out in 2015 and back in December he came once again upon the radar of


the intelligence services this time because he was heard uttering


threats about the police, saying he wanted to hit the police again and


saying that he was going to get in touch with so-called Islamic State,


get hold of weapons and attacked the police. This was reported to


intelligence services, they questioned him, commonly denied


everything and he was set free in February and now this has happened.


Clearly that whole story is giving grist to the mill of people like


Marine Le Pen who say that the security services have their hands


tied and there's too much laxity in the system and so on. It all happens


days before voters go to the polls in the first round of the French


presidential election. What has been the impact on the election itself?


Will have to wait until Sunday to see that. That's the question on


everyone's mind of course, how this might play, the superficial reading


I suppose we'll be that it will help Marine Le Pen, a quarter of the


electorate is supposedly undecided and it's quite possible that some of


those people might say, after what has happened I think Marine Le Pen


is right, we need a tougher line. The other parties have been


dilly-dallying, they might say, we need someone to get tough on


terrorism. Possibly not. Ffos Las Lyon, the conservative right-wing


candidate has also been tough on Islamist - slivers. That Francois.


Perhaps he makes people feel that the simplistic notions of stopping


terrorism in its tracks as Marine Le Pen puts it is simply stick. And


Emmanuel Macron the centrist has also been pretty strong on


terrorism, all three of those candidates in the last hour have


been on TV, making statements because they know they must tailor


their reaction very, very carefully today. And how they respond to this


will be crucial when it comes to the vote on Sunday. And that vote on


Sunday, the four front runners are very tightly drawn together,


surprisingly, in what is being billed as the tightest French


presidential election for very long time. The whole thing is most


extraordinary completely unpredictable. The two front runners


for so long were Marine Le Pen and Emmanuel Macron, the centrist, who


emerged from the current Socialist government but has distanced himself


from it, the youngster of politics who wants to come reshape the look


of the French political system. They were both well ahead but they've


come down in the polls, they've suffered from being early leaders.


Their lead has been frittered away. Francois Fillon has come up behind


and so has Emmanuel Macron - Jean-Luc Melenchon who is picking up


all the socialist votes, people who would have voted for Benoit Hamon is


a bit of a dead duck so Jean-Luc Melenchon is picking up strongly.


They are all converging around 20% and that is where it will all be


decided, possibly by a small pocket of votes on Sunday. Hugh, thank you


very much. Zoe Williams, of the four front runners who do you see in the


final two, the run-off? My goodness. It is a living hell. We've been here


so often and said Trump cannot possibly do this and this cannot


possibly happen... I thought originally in November I thought the


French were so counter suggestible that once everyone had a fascist


they would not want one. That remained my view for some time.


Right now, Jean-Luc Melenchon is a really surprising new entry. A kind


of left-wing candidate. Freddie left-wing. It depends what you mean,


he looks very left wing because you have a fascist in play. So almost


everyone looks left-wing compared to her. How will this incident play?


The cliche, everyone presupposes that anyone who is tough on


terrorism will win then there is a terrorism incident. I think that


like so many incidents of this sort if you are doing Isis's work for


them when you dignify this with an ideological basis, you have a


violent person who has killed a policeman before and then kills


another with theirs- leading language... In the heart of Paris at


one of the most iconic points on the Champs-Elysees... And the idea that


you could make foreign policy to counter Vale that psychopathic


aggression is, I think meaningless. I don't think people buy it. Do you


agree, Laura, because to some extent France has been under a state of


emergency for some time and you may ask of the security services, what


more can they do in terms of protecting citizens. That is what


they will be promising today. These attacks are difficult because they


aren't sophisticated attacks like you might have had in the 1980s, and


arguably they are sort of Lone wolf attacks. The unusual thing about


this killer, like the one in Westminster, was that he was much


older than previous attackers. He was 39. I find it interesting that


Zoe is, I assume, when you are calling somebody a fascist, that you


are referring to Marine Le Pen. How would you refer to her? Marine Le


Pen's economic policies are certainly on the left, which


frequently fascists in the past have had left of centre economic policies


so I'm glad that's clarified. In terms of what impact it will have,


arguably it could be a game changer, arguably it will increase her vote


but Fillon on the right has also been tough on Islamism. It could be


that voters see him as a response. That are very few votes between


Fillon and Jean-Luc Melenchon. It is true that Marine Le Pen does look


left to workers. The same thing you could say about Donald Trump and his


protectionism, you could hear this about Brexit, let's protect workers,


let's protect employees in this protectionist way. I don't think


that kind of authoritarian politics warrants a left- right binary


analysis in that way. Hang on a second. The point is when you are an


authoritarian, when you demonise the other, when you make all the nations


problems the fault of foreigners, when you seek all the authority for


your own office and deny prowlers and that makes you a fascist. If you


are going to split hairs about whether you are more like Hitler or


Lenin you are one. She's doing well in the polls. I can't respond for


people responding to fascist language. You can't.


Back home the general election campaign continues


to crank into gear, with Labour seeking to keep up


the pace with an attack on the Government's


Let's take a look at Labour's campaign so far.


Jeremy Corbyn kicked things off with a keynote speech yesterday.


He said the election is not about Brexit, but about fixing


the "rigged system" run by the City, tax-dodgers and the media.


And this morning, the Labour leader turned his focus to education.


He said that too many children are "crammed


And we've been learning which Labour MPs will be standing -


The party's former leader, Ed Miliband, has confirmed


But the former Shadow Chancellor Ed Balls has ruled out a return


Some Labour MPs have fired parting shots at Jeremy Corbyn.


The Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland MP Tom Blenkinsop


said that he won't stand again because he's fed up with the party's


The Labour MP Dawn Butler seemed to struggle in a BBC


She said Theresa May calling the election


was an attempt to "rig democracy", despite the fact that most


And she later suggested that the party's policy prospectus


could be subject to continual change throughout the election campaign,


That will keep everyone on their toes! She said the manifesto may


even be a rolling manifesto. Let's see what Jeremy Corbyn had


to say about class sizes The news that's coming out today


is that the class sizes are rising, 500,000 children in England -


500,000 children - half a million children,


are now being taught It's pretty obvious to me,


that if you ere in a class of 36, you're not going to get a great deal


of attention from the teacher, compared to if you're in a smaller


class of 30 or under. Another 300,000 are in


classes between 31 and 36. And it is geting worse


and will continue to get worse. And Jeremy Corbyn on the campaign


trail. Joining us now from the BBC's


newsroom in Salford is the shadow Welcome to The Daily Politics. Thank


you. Jeremy Corbyn clear that a future Labour government would keep


class sizes down. How will you do that? The key thing is, as he says,


we have half a million children currently in super-sized classes.


40,000 children in classes over 36 and 15,000 children in classes over


40. We can bring this down. How? We need to go back. We know that Key


stage one currently in primary schools, we cannot have classes more


than 31, it is in the Key stage two area, it will be a firm commitment


from Labour... I am sure you will be making a commitment and you are very


upset as Jeremy Corbyn was yesterday when he said class sizes were too


big for many schoolchildren but how will you reduce class sizes. It's


leading to a teacher morale crisis already. We are seeing teachers


leaving the profession which is putting more pressure... You are not


answering my question. People may say, yes, I like the idea of smaller


class sizes but they will want to know how you are going to achieve


it. We've seen a decline in investment in schools, failed Tory


policies over the last seven years, we are going to see a cut of ?3


billion between now and 2020 which the Institute of fiscal and the


successful happen to our schools. That means most secondary schools


will lose six teachers... Will you reverse those cuts which are real


terms cuttings... Parents want their children taught in appropriate class


sizes, we were reversed those cuts about will be an manifesto. So you


will commit to giving the money to the schools budget which will mean


they don't have to make those cuts by 2020. Labour has announced last


week, as you know, Jo that we will extend free school meals to children


in primary schools. Today Jeremy and the party are committing to


hard-working families across this country that we will not allow this


drift upwards of class sizes... Hang on, let me stop you. Let's go stage


by stage. You have said clearly that you would allow those cuts to


happen. Those cuts that the Institute for Fiscal Studies says


will be about 8% in real terms. How would you pay for it? That VAT on


Private schools to pave your free school meals policy? How will you


pay for this? That was a fully costed commitment last week. And


this is not? We have seen this government waste money hand over


fist, Jo. Look at the free schools programme. Look at what happened at


schools in Bermondsey when we were throwing ?30,000 per year per pupil


at it and it still had to close because it failed... Another half ?1


billion wasted through the lack of the Academy session programme


because of regional schools commission is not making their


quotas. We will pledge to do this today and next week when you see our


manifesto it will be a fully costed proposal. Do you know how it will be


paid for, you are the shadow schools minister, you say it will be fully


costed, how would it be paid for? We've already made a commitment on


VAT and independent schools. I've already said that the government has


wasted over ?1 billion. We are talking about ?3 billion here. I've


just identified over one and a half billion pounds worth of that


investment. You will see next week we have a number of major


institutions lined up to back us in how we can do this pledge. Labour


has had to do this before, it was an our pledge card in 1997. It was very


popular and we've seen after seven years of failure of the Tories to


invest we've seen the problem comeback and it will grow and get


worse. OK, so what would you like to see as the maximum limit on class


sizes in Key stages two and three? Is a former primary school teacher


myself, I know that when classes begin to rise past 3233 it was


extraordinary extra pressure on teachers. And I'll see you can't


drive up standards. We've seen the government of measure themselves


against China and Finland yet we are declining...


The limit has, the limit, we are committing next week, in our


manifesto, that we will stop, we will slow the rise in class sizes.


Are you going to stick to the status quo of 30? At the moment it is 31 in


Key Stage 1. The problem is Key Stage 2, I think we will talk, but,


to the professional bodies, to parents an teachers but we don't


want to see the supersize classes. To be clear you want them to come


down... 36 is too many. Accept that but you want to have a maximum


limit. You won't to say we won't have class sizes bigger than 25? I


want parentses to have a world class education system. To get that, what


number should it be? A world class teaching profession, to raise our


standards, which have been falling backwards in in country, over the


last seven years under this failed Tory administration. I can't get out


of of you what your limit would be, you think they are too big, rising


above 31, 32, you can't say what the want the maximum limit to be? We are


already saying at Key Stage 1 we know there is a limit of 31. Two I


am saying that 36 is far too many and I would like to see that number


reduced. All right. We have said and we will be saying, we have said how


we will fund our policy, which is proving popular about free school


meals for Key Stage 2 children and we will show how we will fully fund


this next week. Your colleague Dawn Butler said this election is Theresa


May's attempt to rig democracy. Despite the fact that the vast


majority of Labour MPs voted for it. Is that the party's position that


Theresa May is trying to rig democracy? She told us less than a


week ago that there would be no snap general election, and then she is


telling us we are somehow undermining her attempt in the


Brexit negotiation. Why did you vote for it, why did you vote for the


motion to call an early election. Three-quarters of MPs voted for the


Article 50 to be triggered and two thirds of the Lords, so I think the,


Dawn is right. The Prime Minister's making this up as she goes along.


Rigging democracy by calling an election which is what she said


yesterday. You are saying she is rigging democracy because she said


she wouldn't call a snap general election, why did Labour vote for


that motion, for an early general election, if you think it is rigging


democracy? I think Theresa May has got her own agenda about why she


called this... Why did you vote for it? We are ready for, we said we


would be ready for any election when it come, that is why we are gearing


up You can't rig a democracy by calling an election you support.


That is why we will lower class sizes, introduce free school meals,


we have shown in the first few days of this election we are up and


running and we are delivering policies, you will have to ask the


Conservatives about why they promised the British people last


week. We have. But is it Labour's position that Theresa May and the


Conservatives are trying to rig democracy by calling this snap


election? They are trying to, they are trying to get a position where


they want a hard Brexit. That would be bad for my constituent,


Manchester Airport is in my constituency. Whatever side of the


debate you are on in terms of Brexit, a hard Brexit will be bad


for the British people, and we cannot give, allow Theresa May to


give her that mandate. Right. So you are going to try and block the


Brexit negotiations or at least try and... No, we are not, we do not


want a hard Brexit, that has been Keir Starmer's position. What is a


hard Brexit? A hard Brexit is one where we come out of the customs


union, where we don't co-operate with European colleague, that would


affect the north massively, and all of the other big projects that are


carrying on, it would affect people across the country. We industrial to


get to a position where we want to co-operate with our European


neighbours and get away from the Tory position of almost outright


xenophobia. Is that what the Tory position is? For some of them it is.


Is Who? It is damaging the British economy, and it will be damaging for


us going forward if we allow the Conservatives to have a hard Brexit.


Do you think the Government is xenophobic? I think a hard Brexit


would be very damaging, for our economy here in the UK. The rolling


manifesto that Dawn Butler talked about, is 245 how you see it


happening, there could be things put in as we go through the campaign and


things taken out? We will see, we will make further announcement on on


o manifesto next week. It's a snap election, the manifesto progress has


to be speeded up for all parties across the political spectrum, so we


will be see next week, but today, we are making a firm commitment about


children in supersize classes about how we will reduce that. Thank you.


Your response first o all it is is a good policy area, to start with in


an election campaign, how much detail do you think they will have


to give? I am astonished he wouldn't say the cap is 31, why not just say


it, there seems to be a huge amount of course disand fear in this


delivery, itself is not hard to say I want class sizes to be this big. I


am surprised by this line of questions, they are pledging not to


reduce the ?3 billion, it is for the Conservatives why they want to


reduce it, an opposition party shouldn't have to justify keeping


the budget as it is. Although it wasn't clear whether it would be the


status quo or go beyond. I think they are clear, I think the school


budget should be extended because teachers were under pressure before.


On that do you agree, should the budget be at least kept at the same,


the schools budget till 2020 or more money being put inside, otherwise


class sizes will grow. We need to be careful not to go for the supersize


magical money tree which is what Labour reach forts... On the class


size would you be happy with class sizes of 36. I think educating


children is a standard civilised business. I educate my own children,


two are at primary school. Would you be happy... Will I answer? Would you


be unhappy if they were in big classes? Yes because educating


children in big classes is harder than in smaller classes, that is why


so many senior Labour MPs send their children to private schools. I don't


think that is true. You are talking about Diane Abbott. Keir Starmer and


I believe Jeremy Corbyn's son went to a grammar school. So we know


Labour hierarchy have a policy of do what I say, not as I do, so, but


moving on in terms of the actual policy, if Labour are going to start


proposing you know, budget busting policy, to buy votes from the


electorate, then they must be costed. As you so fantastically


showed he doesn't have a clue where that money is coming from. He says


they will next week. Education spending has increased in the last


ten years, the question is you using that wisely. In cash, in cash terms


it may have increased. The point is there are a lot more pupils and in


real terms the cut will be... When you look at this all the


Conservative rhetoric and the Ukip rhetoric is look at this unbearable


pressure on public services but when they want to talk about it, they are


like you can't go to the magic money tree. You can go to the magic money


tree if it is costed. He came on here to give a policy that is


uncosted. He has been exposed for that. Let us leave it there.


Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron is facing a rather unlikely


challenger in his own constituency, so our question today is -


At the end of the show, Laura and Zoe will give us


There are those who'll tell you the vote in June is going to be


all about one thing - the B word - Brexit.


But as far as voters are concerned we're not so sure that rings true.


Emma Vardy wheeled our mood box onto the streets


Suddenly we are seven weeks out from the general election,


that few people saw coming, and we want to find out


through the medium of my golden balls, what will be the most


important issue when you decide how to vote?


My main concern is the economy, really, so Brexit for me is a sort


of, not really linked to my every day life.


When you come to vote what will be the most important issue


when you decide how to vote, will it be Brexit or something else?


Personally, I don't vote, because I believe that they are


There's going to be a general election?


I put it in something else because of the fact I'm a nurse


and all the stuff that surrounding that issue.


Looks like something else may be sneaking ahead.


That is the most important issue that our country


I've no idea, sorry I've just come out of work, I'm very tired.


Sounds like you've had a hard day at work.


It is the biggest thing that's going to happen to us,


so we really need to focus on that, make sure we get it right,


because for my children's sake we have to get it right.


Because Brexit is just a single issue and there is more


Have a ball, have a rummage, they're all the same colour.


Brexit is important where we go from now on, we have to get it done,


It is not about changing Brexit's mind and going back again,


What is your something else? So things such as looking after the


police, looking after public resources, but trying to make sure


that Britain gets the best deal for Britain, rather than going along


with what everyone thinks. No vote for Molly. No. Molly, Brexit or


something else? I think it is probably going to be Brexit rather


than something else, just because it, it is the major issue. Brexit or


something else? Here we go. Is that the first ever face time vote for


the mood box? Maybe. He said Brexit.


I love your blue hair, anything political in that? No, I just like


the colour blue. I work with a lot of homeless people, and a lot of


community work so that is super, super important. You are agonising.


I don't know what to choose. You have the golden ball, I can't take


it back. I am anti-Brexit so I am going to go with something else. It


is close but many people today told us when it comes to the general


election there is more things important to them than Brexit, they


will be making their mind up on something else.


Emma Vardy with the Daily Politics moodbox.


Laura, do you think it will be about Brexit this election or other


issues. I think Brexit will definitely dominate the airwave,


that is for sure, but on the ground, as they say, and particularly in


northern England perhaps, you know, other issues will be important like


education, health is always incredibly important, and the


economy, perhaps, this is the first election in a while where it isn't


number one but Brexit and the economy is interconnected, so it


will dominate. It is a very important question, the other issues


will be there also. Laura mentioned the economy not being the number


one, what did you make of the tactic at Prime Minister's Questions, of


Jeremy Corbyn to ask about the levels of debt and deficit, do you


think that is is a strategy? They are going to go on the economy? I I


mean the things the Brexit campaign wasn't fought on Brexit, the Brexit


campaign was fought on the NHS, and immigration. So, the idea you can...


The Remainors tried to make it on the economy. 1234 on 72 pence,


beanses will be 72 pence more expensive, that didn't ignite. And


there would be economic downturn after. It is either your beans will


be more expensive or your job will go, or it was just your beans,


neither played. The levers did sovereignty, nobody knew what it


meant. They did more money for the NHS when they didn't mean and


immigration which they weren't playing on. Now? I don't know what,


I don't know what an election fought on Brexit would look like. Do you


think, what do you think it would look like? It will be split between


the emwills who will say we are borderline going to reverse Brexit


but we are not leaving the single market.. And the Tory party who will


say we are leaving and the Labour Party saying we haven't a clue what


our position is on Brexit, can we talk something else. There was talk


of fighting hard Brexit, the Lib Dem position is clear, but what is


Labour going... It's an unsophisticated politics that can't


accept complication. We can't just say we were reverse the referendum


because we don't like it that the same time you can't say we must


leave Europe without a deal. People have to be honest and say this is a


very complex negotiation and we ought to be able to talk about it


piece by piece. That is what an evolved democracy looks like. Is


wrong with opposition, there was the line about saboteurs going after the


election. How damaging will that be? That was from a paper, it is crucial


to have a free press in a democracy. It would be entirely wrong for the


Prime Minister to criticise a free press. I think it's right for her to


give her view... Alaves look at what happened with Labour yesterday and


today. Yesterday we fight democracy, calling an election is supposedly


rigging the system and Chuka Umunna said Theresa May wanted a


dictatorship. We've just had the Shadow Education Secretary calling


the Tory party xenophobic. Clive Lewis today called people who voted


Conservative and caring. And Dawn Butler libelled the corporation...


She did apologise. Of goodness' sake. Normally you and the Zoe. I'm


on the horse now. They like insulting people and bullying people


and they like saying, if you don't vote for us you are and caring. What


about Theresa May saying she had to call this election because she


couldn't bear opposition and that hadn't been any problem getting of


the legislation through an Brexit. She said she called the election to


get the best deal for Britain and Brexit negotiations. And the


opposition is doing its job by scrutinising her. Actually I think a


language is dangerous because she said, the people are united it is


Westminster that is not united. When she wants them to unite she wants


them to unite behind her, she wants a politics of that opposition. Laura


would argue that she doesn't have an opposition anyway so she should keep


quiet about it. But it is disgusting as the leader of the civilised


democracy to say that you don't want to be opposed. She never said that.


She's called an election when she is already in power, she has conceded


control to the electorate. That is the very blog of a democracy. And


when she is 20 points ahead in the polls. You think that she's taking a


risk by calling an election when she's 21 points ahead? What Labour


are trying to do is terrify the electorate... Forget Labour, none of


us are members of the Labour Party. The point is that she has done a


zero risk option. I don't think she has raked democracy at all. It


wasn't with the fixed term Parliament act and it has been. The


point of that was that people could vote against it. Let's leave it


there. One of the reasons it's thought


the Prime Minister changed her mind about holding an election


was the favourability of the polls - with the Conservatives further ahead


of Labour than at any So as the parties get


out on to the streets where will they be best off


targeting their efforts, The average of polls in April show


the Conservatives with around 44% of the share of the vote -


19 points ahead of This would translate to a national


swing to the Conservatives of around 6%, compared


with the 2015 general election. Current analysis suggests that


could see the Conservatives gain around 50 seats and Labour


lose around 50. Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron


said this was a "chance to change the direction of the country" -


looking to appeal to areas that They will be keen to reclaim seats


like Lewes Twickenham, which they lost to the Tories


in 2015. And target very remain areas such


as Bath and Kingston-upon-Thames. Ukip will be hoping to capture seats


from Labour in the North - Hartlepool and Great Grimsby


as well as their perennial Tory That was where Nigel Farage failed


to win last time. With me is the man who called the


2015 election correctly, Matt Singh from Number Cruncher Politics. Well


done, although on the basis of polls over the last few years should we


trust anything you say? I can understand people being sceptical,


it's always been in my head, it is right that people are sceptical,


before the 2015 election it was this blind trust, people looking at it to


the last decimal place and saying that the Tory majority wouldn't


happen, it's also wrong to go to the other extreme and say that we can't


trust anything. They are imperfect but they are the best guide we have.


Other commentators over-egging it, some of them when they talk about a


potential Tory landslide? As we had on this show earlier this week it is


quite hard for the party that wins to get big majorities these days for


the simple reason that there are fewer marginal seats. Which may


surprise people, fewer marginal seats and more safe seats than there


were ten years ago. Yes. Part of what happened in the last election


is that a lot of Labour seats in Avon and North East went Labour and


Tory seats went more towards the Conservatives. In terms of if


Theresa May is trying to get the sort of majority Mrs Thatcher had in


the 1980s she would need a much bigger lead in the popular vote, it


seems, to do that. At the moment the polls suggest she has but it's early


days. What are the key targets for the Conservatives? They'll be


looking at the conservative - Labour marginals battle ground, there are


quite a few of those seats. The swing is less likely to be an even


swing than usual. If you look at what is happening, and what is


happening around the country, the Labour vote seems to be dropping


everywhere but the Tory vote seems to be advancing more in areas that


voted Leave. A few things behind that. The direct effect from Leave


voters and also more Ukip voters in those places and the Tories seem to


be doing well over them. Right. One thing that escaped the attention of


many in 2015 was that below the radar the Tories were doing better


in some of those conservative- Lib Dem marginals. Will they be able to


hold onto those this time? There will be someone they find it


difficult, you mentioned Twickenham where they have a small majority and


Vince Cable coming back and standing again, in places where the Lib Dems


have a former MP coming back, with name recognition they will do pretty


well. And in those areas that are firmly Remain and the Lib Dems are


clear on their policy. They will be looking at where they were strong in


the past and have the structure with local government and so on, within


that, the Remain position is likely to be more fruitful in those places.


We've heard Ruth Davidson the Tory lead in Scotland saying that they


reached peak Nat last time. Is the only way down for the SNP? And be


hard for them to go up, they've got 56% of visits! There were literally


three! One for each of the three UK wide parties. It is hard to see


anything other than the SNP still being dominant. However there's been


an interesting change in Scotland. Among people that oppose


independence there's been a switch from Labour to the Conservatives.


The Conservatives narrowly beat Labour into second place at the


Holyrood election and they have consolidated that position. Let's


talk about tactical voting. Caroline Lucas, one of the leaders of the


Green party, called for more tactical voting yesterday on a


Progressive Alliance ticket. How many seats could be won if that


agreement, if there were an agreement, was taken through to a


logical conclusion, how many seats could a Progressive Alliance win?


Its defence that is a formal thing or an informal thing. I think that


comment was more about a formal thing -- it depends if that is


formal or informal. It's not just about adding votes, it is about how


people would perceive that Alliance. Even potentially, hurray, you know


the answer. With Compass we've done a lot about the data, there are 49


seats where voters making smart choices to ally against the


Conservatives could win it for either the Lib Dems or Labour. But


they would have to trust either the Lib Dems or the Labour Party to


cooperate afterwards and that is still up in the air, there are 40


seats which would become impregnable if voters voted smartly. Caroline


Lucas has always said, you can't have parties stitching up deals


between themselves, you need voters to hold hustings and say, OK, we'll


support you. You could do it at some sort of local level and have


agreement. It is so we're right in the sense that they would be enough,


there is enough potential for Progressive Alliance to vote or to


keep out Tory candidate stash is so we write? It would depend on the


nature of the Alliance. If you are talking about the Greens, Labour


squeezed them hard in the marginal seats last time so there are not so


many, if we're talking Lib Dems it's different. We are talking about


everyone. In a certain light Ken Clarke would be welcome any


Progressive Alliance. Not likely to happen! It won't happen from the top


down because they couldn't agree and also because voters don't like it.


Coalition of chaos was the phrase used by Theresa May yesterday or the


day before, it didn't get much traction, is it because it is not


true that there would be a coalition of chaos even if there was a linkup?


I think it would be chaotic. It would be very difficult to see how


it would work. Tactical voting on the ground is one thing but if you


got extraordinary result, Howard coalition would agree is very


difficult. -- how it would agree. If you voted to leave the EU and then


Labour made a deal with the Lib Dems and went back on it, you'd feel


you'd been stabbed in the back once more by your party. Which is why


Labour reject any idea of an SNP coalition. Labour reject anything


with the Lib Dems all with the SNP because they are tribal and it's


staffed. Even if they were not in the situation they are in it is


backwards looking to look at everything through wanting this mass


party dominance of the early 19 hundredths. A lot of voters are


daft, not as daft as Tory voters obviously! On the daftness


barometer... You are mistaking me for a Labour MP, I'm not even a


member of the Liberal party. Ladies, I am glad you have clarified that.


Before we hear more about stuff voters, none of our voters are daft,


thank you for coming in! There's an important


election under way. One that could determine the future


of both Jeremy Corbyn and his party. Not the general election,


but a ballot among Unite the Union's one million members,


for their General Secretary. They are counting the votes


as we speak and the result is not But the battle between Len McCluskey


and his challenger Gerard Coyne Ben Wright has been


keeping his eye on it. Why should we care so much about


this election in terms of Labour Party politics? Jo, this election


has been going on for several weeks. It has been better and personnel


because there's a huge amount at stake. The two main reasons, Unite


is the biggest trade union in Britain with 1.4 million members


working in sectors from the car industry through two airlines, so


the general secretary of that union and the decisions and priorities


they make as a big bearing on a large number of workers in the UK.


The two pitches being made by Len McCluskey and Gerard Coyne are quite


different about the future shape and priorities of trade unionism in the


next couple of years. It clearly has a huge bearing on the feature of


Labour. One of the main arguments made by Gerard Coyne against Len


McCluskey is that at the moment, Unite is much too close to Jeremy


Corbyn and the Labour Party. Gerard Coyne said Unite should no longer be


the puppet master of Jeremy Corbyn 's Labour. And if Len McCaskill were


to lose the contest it would be a massive blow to Jeremy Corbyn -- Len


McCluskey because it would significantly change the shape and


composition of the Labour Party ruling National executive and also


the party conference. It would have a very big bearing and Unite is one


of the biggest trade union donors to the Labour Party. So what has


happened in terms of Gerard Coyne and his position as the Challenger


two Len McCluskey? It's very murky. What happened yesterday is that


Unite said that Gerard Coyne had been suspended from his job as the


West Midlands regional organiser, a job he's had her 15 years, pending


investigations into certain activities that had taken place.


They said no more than that. Clearly the bosses of Unite have concerns


over how he has been running his campaign. To be honest both Len


McCluskey's campaign and Gerard Coyne's campaign have been unusually


quiet in the last 24 hours and they don't want to talk about it. That


happened yesterday just as voting was closing. And the votes are being


counted today, as he said. It is all murky. Word Gerard Coyne to win the


contest and it still feels that that's the least likely outcome, --


if he were to win, we are also being told that it's ridiculous, what


impact does his suspension from his job have if he were to win this.


It's a very mysterious set of circumstances. If he were to win,


Gerard Coyne, could he take up the position at the General Secretary of


Unite? There could be legal challenges from the other size about


whether that was a between tenable outcome. We would hear speculation


that housing benefit kneecaped as it reaches its final stages, it is


another twist in what has been a bruising campaign within Unite, but


what would be key is how many people engage and turned out to vote. It


seems Gerard Coyne's big hope is he could get turn out in this contest


above about 15% which is the turn out... Pretty low. A tiny number of


hard-core activist who tornado to take part in this. Gerard Coyne's


big hope was extending that to the wider membership who haven't been


engaged in this before. He wants to return Unite back to the interests


of the membership and not just lining it -- aligning it with Jeremy


Corbyn. When the result announced? It is officially announced on 28th,


so a week's time. There are rumours it could be as early as this


afternoon. Thank you very much. So where are the


negotiations on Brexit? But in spite of the upcoming


elections, Theresa May is busy Next week, the PM hosts


the head of the Commission, And the European Council is due


to convene next weekend to lay A draft however has already


been leaked, suggesting that the European Court of Justice


would continue to play role in the UK's relationship


with the EU even when we leave. European Parliament President


Antonio Tajani had a cordial And he had reassuring words


for the Prime Minister on the issue The UK's departure affects


millions of EU citizens, and the European Parliament message


is clear, strongly defending their The students, workers and families


are valuable members of society and deserve absolute certainty


over their future. I underlined, during


the meeting with Mrs May, for the European Parliament this


is the most important point. We are joined now from Rome


by Roberto Gualtieri, an Italian MEP who is part


of the European Parliament's negotiating team, and from


Birmingham by James Carver, Welcome to both of you. Do you


welcome the general election that is under way in the UK? Of course I


have my personal idea as a socialist member, but as part of a negotiating


team we deal with the country and with this government. We understand


where we will have a government elected in the election, that will


be our part throughout. The President of the European Parliament


has suggested after the general election, the UK could reverse the


departure process and it wouldn't need to go through the courts, is


there any chance of that in your mind? No, because of the mandate it


was given in the referendum where the British people voted to take


back control and make a decision. Decision. And Roberto, the European


Parliament has threatened to veto any Brexit deal if the UK does not


guarantee the rights under the European Court of Justice


jurisdiction and they have to be guaranteed forever but we are


leaving the EU, so why would you put that in your negotiating opening


gambit? I think we should clarify between the withdrawal agreement,


and possible transitional arrangementings and the future


relationship between the UK and you. We now are talking about the


withdrawal agreement which have to settle some element of the divorce


and of course, for some of those elements it is obvious for us that


the European Court of Justice should be in charge to monitor the


implementation. It includes... In the leaked document I says that the


rights of EU nationals in the UK, if there was a dispute in the feature


under whatever deal is agreed, that dispute would be brokered by the


European Court of Justice. The guidelines clarify than the European


Court off justice should form a fundamental role we talk about


Somersetments models, this is of course for the information, but one


point has to be made clear, we want to guarantee all the rightings for


the citizens. And this right should be fully enjoyable as they are now,


so this is the most important element and of course, we have to


guarantee that also the the implementation of the right will be


according to rules, one thing having written them, the other is


administration of the right, we heard about very long very forms to


be filed for having the permanent... We see that the existing set of


rights, both for UK national in it will UK and for new national the UK,


they should be guaranteed, not just the, so it is very important Let


me... It is concrete. Let me put that to James, do you have a


problem? Yes. He fails to appreciate a premise of economy and a role for


all. The supremacy of the European Court of Justice, outlining in the


infamous fact following the... Hang on, can I pick you up on equality


for all, it would be under the European Court of Justice, because


there would be reciprocity, the UK citizens in other member states


would be treated in the same way as EU members here. I don't accept


that, sorry. It would be a disadvantaged to other British


citizens. We voted to pull out of the European Court of Justice, it


was a simple question, is it in or out and we voted to leave. So you


don't want to ea the European Court off justice have any forge of...


Citizens from inside and outside the European Union have lived in the


United Kingdom for many, many years, even before the European Union and


indeed European economic economyty came into being. That is a view from


Ukip, do you think that Theresa May will agree to your demands as you


have outlined, bear in mind where she has said about leaving the UK


including leaving the European Court of Justice. It is very clear for the


future relationship the decision of the Government of the European


Government is of course to leave theure and... You think she will


accept it. We are talking about something different. We call... The


grandfathers aring of existing right. Do you think she will accept


it. I am very happy for the UK, and for thesome citizen their right he


defended by the Ukip rend Tim and the got that is... You are opt us


the Mick -- optimistic she will accept that, Theresa May, let us say


she wins would accept that agreement?


Hope of course that the next Government, who will be


democratically elected by the UK citizens will be reliable partner in


the negotiation and will ensure a good result. First from the is it


zins and we are talking about that and we have to protect the rights.


All right. If the European Parliament veto the Brexit deal,


what happens then? I am sure they will. You know. Speaking from my


experience, what I am seeing the body language, we saw what happened


to the vote in the last plenty session, I don't know what they are


do. If they do a, if we want to walk away, we have to walk away and it


underlines lines the validity of Ukip. We have to keep the pressure


on the Conservative Party and speak up. Thank you both very much.


Your thoughts on how it is going to go? Of course your initial


negotiating position, you have as a tough position, You can work


backwards, what he seems to be saying is that I mean, he seems to


be accepting, that yes, Britain, the European Court of Justice will not


have jurisdiction over Britain, that is what Brexit means. It is the


case, that is what tray has said. The turning point seems to be what


is there is a dispute over the eventual deal, but on basic


principles, you can't go to the one of the parties court, you go to an


impartial court to decide that. They are drawing that as a red line. You


can't say my people get to depied the dispute. I am not sure there is


a final arbitration question they are asking. There are areas of


adjudication the Great Repeal Bill can't cope with, so things like two,


a British parent and European parent and who has cost diof their


children. Loads of airsias of law -- areas of law. We have almost run out


of time. Fascinating though it will be at some stage we will have to


leave it there. We have to go to our round up of the political week. Here


is Jenny with a special edition of the week in 60 seconds.


On Tuesday the Prime Minister had a surprise for us all.


And it wasn't a chocolate, sorry, Easter egg.


We agreed that the government should call a general election.


Legally there shouldn't be a vote until 2020,


but that proved no object as MPs voted overwhelmingly


But not for George Osborne, who's gone into the


Not the family wallpaper firm, mind you, he's off


to edit the London Evening Standard full-time.


Yesterday the president of the European Parliament


turned up, but insisted that he wasn't here to interfere.


Unlike the European Commissioner, who decided


to ring him up in the middle office press conference.


And Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn took a populist tone,


railing against the cosy club of the establishment,


but he left the gags to his warm-up act.


I think we have less than 60 seconds to the end.


There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.


The question is, who is standing against LIb Dem leader Tim Farron


At the end of the show, Laura and Zoe will give us


Farron says he is "more of a chips and mushy peas man".


Thanks to Zoe, Laura and all my guests.


Andrew will be back on Sunday on BBC One at 11


with the Sunday Politics, when his guests will include


the Conservative Party chairman Patrick McLoughlin.


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