21/04/2017 Daily Politics

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

Campaigning in the French presidential election is suspended

after a gunman murdered a policeman in central Paris.

The man is thought to be known to the authorities

Jeremy Corbyn hits the road as he takes his election campaign

on tour, with a warning that school children in England

are being squeezed into classrooms 'like sardines'.

The shadow schools minister joins me live.

Ahead of Brexit talks between Theresa May

and Jean Claude Juncker next week, more details of the EU's negotiation

strategy come to light - including a demand for protection

And at the end of a whirlwind week in politics we've

got our bitesize round-up, in just sixty seconds.

is the Guardian columnist Zoe Williams, and Laura Perrins, who

Let's start with the terror attack in Paris last night and talk

to our correspondent there Hugh Scholfield.

Apart from the fact that it is dreadful that France and Paris has

been hit again, give us the latest. The man has been named camellias

called Karim Cheurfi, he's 39, he lived in the eastern Paris suburbs

and things have come out this morning about his past. Not for the

first time, we learn that this man has a criminal record, back in the

early 2000s he was involved in a shooting of police officers for

which he served a long time in prison, it was a criminal affair, he

shot out some officers who chased him when he was in a stolen car, he

was caught and served time in prison. More recently he had come

out in 2015 and back in December he came once again upon the radar of

the intelligence services this time because he was heard uttering

threats about the police, saying he wanted to hit the police again and

saying that he was going to get in touch with so-called Islamic State,

get hold of weapons and attacked the police. This was reported to

intelligence services, they questioned him, commonly denied

everything and he was set free in February and now this has happened.

Clearly that whole story is giving grist to the mill of people like

Marine Le Pen who say that the security services have their hands

tied and there's too much laxity in the system and so on. It all happens

days before voters go to the polls in the first round of the French

presidential election. What has been the impact on the election itself?

Will have to wait until Sunday to see that. That's the question on

everyone's mind of course, how this might play, the superficial reading

I suppose we'll be that it will help Marine Le Pen, a quarter of the

electorate is supposedly undecided and it's quite possible that some of

those people might say, after what has happened I think Marine Le Pen

is right, we need a tougher line. The other parties have been

dilly-dallying, they might say, we need someone to get tough on

terrorism. Possibly not. Ffos Las Lyon, the conservative right-wing

candidate has also been tough on Islamist - slivers. That Francois.

Perhaps he makes people feel that the simplistic notions of stopping

terrorism in its tracks as Marine Le Pen puts it is simply stick. And

Emmanuel Macron the centrist has also been pretty strong on

terrorism, all three of those candidates in the last hour have

been on TV, making statements because they know they must tailor

their reaction very, very carefully today. And how they respond to this

will be crucial when it comes to the vote on Sunday. And that vote on

Sunday, the four front runners are very tightly drawn together,

surprisingly, in what is being billed as the tightest French

presidential election for very long time. The whole thing is most

extraordinary completely unpredictable. The two front runners

for so long were Marine Le Pen and Emmanuel Macron, the centrist, who

emerged from the current Socialist government but has distanced himself

from it, the youngster of politics who wants to come reshape the look

of the French political system. They were both well ahead but they've

come down in the polls, they've suffered from being early leaders.

Their lead has been frittered away. Francois Fillon has come up behind

and so has Emmanuel Macron - Jean-Luc Melenchon who is picking up

all the socialist votes, people who would have voted for Benoit Hamon is

a bit of a dead duck so Jean-Luc Melenchon is picking up strongly.

They are all converging around 20% and that is where it will all be

decided, possibly by a small pocket of votes on Sunday. Hugh, thank you

very much. Zoe Williams, of the four front runners who do you see in the

final two, the run-off? My goodness. It is a living hell. We've been here

so often and said Trump cannot possibly do this and this cannot

possibly happen... I thought originally in November I thought the

French were so counter suggestible that once everyone had a fascist

they would not want one. That remained my view for some time.

Right now, Jean-Luc Melenchon is a really surprising new entry. A kind

of left-wing candidate. Freddie left-wing. It depends what you mean,

he looks very left wing because you have a fascist in play. So almost

everyone looks left-wing compared to her. How will this incident play?

The cliche, everyone presupposes that anyone who is tough on

terrorism will win then there is a terrorism incident. I think that

like so many incidents of this sort if you are doing Isis's work for

them when you dignify this with an ideological basis, you have a

violent person who has killed a policeman before and then kills

another with theirs- leading language... In the heart of Paris at

one of the most iconic points on the Champs-Elysees... And the idea that

you could make foreign policy to counter Vale that psychopathic

aggression is, I think meaningless. I don't think people buy it. Do you

agree, Laura, because to some extent France has been under a state of

emergency for some time and you may ask of the security services, what

more can they do in terms of protecting citizens. That is what

they will be promising today. These attacks are difficult because they

aren't sophisticated attacks like you might have had in the 1980s, and

arguably they are sort of Lone wolf attacks. The unusual thing about

this killer, like the one in Westminster, was that he was much

older than previous attackers. He was 39. I find it interesting that

Zoe is, I assume, when you are calling somebody a fascist, that you

are referring to Marine Le Pen. How would you refer to her? Marine Le

Pen's economic policies are certainly on the left, which

frequently fascists in the past have had left of centre economic policies

so I'm glad that's clarified. In terms of what impact it will have,

arguably it could be a game changer, arguably it will increase her vote

but Fillon on the right has also been tough on Islamism. It could be

that voters see him as a response. That are very few votes between

Fillon and Jean-Luc Melenchon. It is true that Marine Le Pen does look

left to workers. The same thing you could say about Donald Trump and his

protectionism, you could hear this about Brexit, let's protect workers,

let's protect employees in this protectionist way. I don't think

that kind of authoritarian politics warrants a left- right binary

analysis in that way. Hang on a second. The point is when you are an

authoritarian, when you demonise the other, when you make all the nations

problems the fault of foreigners, when you seek all the authority for

your own office and deny prowlers and that makes you a fascist. If you

are going to split hairs about whether you are more like Hitler or

Lenin you are one. She's doing well in the polls. I can't respond for

people responding to fascist language. You can't.

Back home the general election campaign continues

to crank into gear, with Labour seeking to keep up

the pace with an attack on the Government's

Let's take a look at Labour's campaign so far.

Jeremy Corbyn kicked things off with a keynote speech yesterday.

He said the election is not about Brexit, but about fixing

the "rigged system" run by the City, tax-dodgers and the media.

And this morning, the Labour leader turned his focus to education.

He said that too many children are "crammed

And we've been learning which Labour MPs will be standing -

The party's former leader, Ed Miliband, has confirmed

But the former Shadow Chancellor Ed Balls has ruled out a return

Some Labour MPs have fired parting shots at Jeremy Corbyn.

The Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland MP Tom Blenkinsop

said that he won't stand again because he's fed up with the party's

The Labour MP Dawn Butler seemed to struggle in a BBC

She said Theresa May calling the election

was an attempt to "rig democracy", despite the fact that most

And she later suggested that the party's policy prospectus

could be subject to continual change throughout the election campaign,

That will keep everyone on their toes! She said the manifesto may

even be a rolling manifesto. Let's see what Jeremy Corbyn had

to say about class sizes The news that's coming out today

is that the class sizes are rising, 500,000 children in England -

500,000 children - half a million children,

are now being taught It's pretty obvious to me,

that if you ere in a class of 36, you're not going to get a great deal

of attention from the teacher, compared to if you're in a smaller

class of 30 or under. Another 300,000 are in

classes between 31 and 36. And it is geting worse

and will continue to get worse. And Jeremy Corbyn on the campaign

trail. Joining us now from the BBC's

newsroom in Salford is the shadow Welcome to The Daily Politics. Thank

you. Jeremy Corbyn clear that a future Labour government would keep

class sizes down. How will you do that? The key thing is, as he says,

we have half a million children currently in super-sized classes.

40,000 children in classes over 36 and 15,000 children in classes over

40. We can bring this down. How? We need to go back. We know that Key

stage one currently in primary schools, we cannot have classes more

than 31, it is in the Key stage two area, it will be a firm commitment

from Labour... I am sure you will be making a commitment and you are very

upset as Jeremy Corbyn was yesterday when he said class sizes were too

big for many schoolchildren but how will you reduce class sizes. It's

leading to a teacher morale crisis already. We are seeing teachers

leaving the profession which is putting more pressure... You are not

answering my question. People may say, yes, I like the idea of smaller

class sizes but they will want to know how you are going to achieve

it. We've seen a decline in investment in schools, failed Tory

policies over the last seven years, we are going to see a cut of ?3

billion between now and 2020 which the Institute of fiscal and the

successful happen to our schools. That means most secondary schools

will lose six teachers... Will you reverse those cuts which are real

terms cuttings... Parents want their children taught in appropriate class

sizes, we were reversed those cuts about will be an manifesto. So you

will commit to giving the money to the schools budget which will mean

they don't have to make those cuts by 2020. Labour has announced last

week, as you know, Jo that we will extend free school meals to children

in primary schools. Today Jeremy and the party are committing to

hard-working families across this country that we will not allow this

drift upwards of class sizes... Hang on, let me stop you. Let's go stage

by stage. You have said clearly that you would allow those cuts to

happen. Those cuts that the Institute for Fiscal Studies says

will be about 8% in real terms. How would you pay for it? That VAT on

Private schools to pave your free school meals policy? How will you

pay for this? That was a fully costed commitment last week. And

this is not? We have seen this government waste money hand over

fist, Jo. Look at the free schools programme. Look at what happened at

schools in Bermondsey when we were throwing ?30,000 per year per pupil

at it and it still had to close because it failed... Another half ?1

billion wasted through the lack of the Academy session programme

because of regional schools commission is not making their

quotas. We will pledge to do this today and next week when you see our

manifesto it will be a fully costed proposal. Do you know how it will be

paid for, you are the shadow schools minister, you say it will be fully

costed, how would it be paid for? We've already made a commitment on

VAT and independent schools. I've already said that the government has

wasted over ?1 billion. We are talking about ?3 billion here. I've

just identified over one and a half billion pounds worth of that

investment. You will see next week we have a number of major

institutions lined up to back us in how we can do this pledge. Labour

has had to do this before, it was an our pledge card in 1997. It was very

popular and we've seen after seven years of failure of the Tories to

invest we've seen the problem comeback and it will grow and get

worse. OK, so what would you like to see as the maximum limit on class

sizes in Key stages two and three? Is a former primary school teacher

myself, I know that when classes begin to rise past 3233 it was

extraordinary extra pressure on teachers. And I'll see you can't

drive up standards. We've seen the government of measure themselves

against China and Finland yet we are declining...

The limit has, the limit, we are committing next week, in our

manifesto, that we will stop, we will slow the rise in class sizes.

Are you going to stick to the status quo of 30? At the moment it is 31 in

Key Stage 1. The problem is Key Stage 2, I think we will talk, but,

to the professional bodies, to parents an teachers but we don't

want to see the supersize classes. To be clear you want them to come

down... 36 is too many. Accept that but you want to have a maximum

limit. You won't to say we won't have class sizes bigger than 25? I

want parentses to have a world class education system. To get that, what

number should it be? A world class teaching profession, to raise our

standards, which have been falling backwards in in country, over the

last seven years under this failed Tory administration. I can't get out

of of you what your limit would be, you think they are too big, rising

above 31, 32, you can't say what the want the maximum limit to be? We are

already saying at Key Stage 1 we know there is a limit of 31. Two I

am saying that 36 is far too many and I would like to see that number

reduced. All right. We have said and we will be saying, we have said how

we will fund our policy, which is proving popular about free school

meals for Key Stage 2 children and we will show how we will fully fund

this next week. Your colleague Dawn Butler said this election is Theresa

May's attempt to rig democracy. Despite the fact that the vast

majority of Labour MPs voted for it. Is that the party's position that

Theresa May is trying to rig democracy? She told us less than a

week ago that there would be no snap general election, and then she is

telling us we are somehow undermining her attempt in the

Brexit negotiation. Why did you vote for it, why did you vote for the

motion to call an early election. Three-quarters of MPs voted for the

Article 50 to be triggered and two thirds of the Lords, so I think the,

Dawn is right. The Prime Minister's making this up as she goes along.

Rigging democracy by calling an election which is what she said

yesterday. You are saying she is rigging democracy because she said

she wouldn't call a snap general election, why did Labour vote for

that motion, for an early general election, if you think it is rigging

democracy? I think Theresa May has got her own agenda about why she

called this... Why did you vote for it? We are ready for, we said we

would be ready for any election when it come, that is why we are gearing

up You can't rig a democracy by calling an election you support.

That is why we will lower class sizes, introduce free school meals,

we have shown in the first few days of this election we are up and

running and we are delivering policies, you will have to ask the

Conservatives about why they promised the British people last

week. We have. But is it Labour's position that Theresa May and the

Conservatives are trying to rig democracy by calling this snap

election? They are trying to, they are trying to get a position where

they want a hard Brexit. That would be bad for my constituent,

Manchester Airport is in my constituency. Whatever side of the

debate you are on in terms of Brexit, a hard Brexit will be bad

for the British people, and we cannot give, allow Theresa May to

give her that mandate. Right. So you are going to try and block the

Brexit negotiations or at least try and... No, we are not, we do not

want a hard Brexit, that has been Keir Starmer's position. What is a

hard Brexit? A hard Brexit is one where we come out of the customs

union, where we don't co-operate with European colleague, that would

affect the north massively, and all of the other big projects that are

carrying on, it would affect people across the country. We industrial to

get to a position where we want to co-operate with our European

neighbours and get away from the Tory position of almost outright

xenophobia. Is that what the Tory position is? For some of them it is.

Is Who? It is damaging the British economy, and it will be damaging for

us going forward if we allow the Conservatives to have a hard Brexit.

Do you think the Government is xenophobic? I think a hard Brexit

would be very damaging, for our economy here in the UK. The rolling

manifesto that Dawn Butler talked about, is 245 how you see it

happening, there could be things put in as we go through the campaign and

things taken out? We will see, we will make further announcement on on

o manifesto next week. It's a snap election, the manifesto progress has

to be speeded up for all parties across the political spectrum, so we

will be see next week, but today, we are making a firm commitment about

children in supersize classes about how we will reduce that. Thank you.

Your response first o all it is is a good policy area, to start with in

an election campaign, how much detail do you think they will have

to give? I am astonished he wouldn't say the cap is 31, why not just say

it, there seems to be a huge amount of course disand fear in this

delivery, itself is not hard to say I want class sizes to be this big. I

am surprised by this line of questions, they are pledging not to

reduce the ?3 billion, it is for the Conservatives why they want to

reduce it, an opposition party shouldn't have to justify keeping

the budget as it is. Although it wasn't clear whether it would be the

status quo or go beyond. I think they are clear, I think the school

budget should be extended because teachers were under pressure before.

On that do you agree, should the budget be at least kept at the same,

the schools budget till 2020 or more money being put inside, otherwise

class sizes will grow. We need to be careful not to go for the supersize

magical money tree which is what Labour reach forts... On the class

size would you be happy with class sizes of 36. I think educating

children is a standard civilised business. I educate my own children,

two are at primary school. Would you be happy... Will I answer? Would you

be unhappy if they were in big classes? Yes because educating

children in big classes is harder than in smaller classes, that is why

so many senior Labour MPs send their children to private schools. I don't

think that is true. You are talking about Diane Abbott. Keir Starmer and

I believe Jeremy Corbyn's son went to a grammar school. So we know

Labour hierarchy have a policy of do what I say, not as I do, so, but

moving on in terms of the actual policy, if Labour are going to start

proposing you know, budget busting policy, to buy votes from the

electorate, then they must be costed. As you so fantastically

showed he doesn't have a clue where that money is coming from. He says

they will next week. Education spending has increased in the last

ten years, the question is you using that wisely. In cash, in cash terms

it may have increased. The point is there are a lot more pupils and in

real terms the cut will be... When you look at this all the

Conservative rhetoric and the Ukip rhetoric is look at this unbearable

pressure on public services but when they want to talk about it, they are

like you can't go to the magic money tree. You can go to the magic money

tree if it is costed. He came on here to give a policy that is

uncosted. He has been exposed for that. Let us leave it there.

Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron is facing a rather unlikely

challenger in his own constituency, so our question today is -

At the end of the show, Laura and Zoe will give us

There are those who'll tell you the vote in June is going to be

all about one thing - the B word - Brexit.

But as far as voters are concerned we're not so sure that rings true.

Emma Vardy wheeled our mood box onto the streets

Suddenly we are seven weeks out from the general election,

that few people saw coming, and we want to find out

through the medium of my golden balls, what will be the most

important issue when you decide how to vote?

My main concern is the economy, really, so Brexit for me is a sort

of, not really linked to my every day life.

When you come to vote what will be the most important issue

when you decide how to vote, will it be Brexit or something else?

Personally, I don't vote, because I believe that they are

There's going to be a general election?

I put it in something else because of the fact I'm a nurse

and all the stuff that surrounding that issue.

Looks like something else may be sneaking ahead.

That is the most important issue that our country

I've no idea, sorry I've just come out of work, I'm very tired.

Sounds like you've had a hard day at work.

It is the biggest thing that's going to happen to us,

so we really need to focus on that, make sure we get it right,

because for my children's sake we have to get it right.

Because Brexit is just a single issue and there is more

Have a ball, have a rummage, they're all the same colour.

Brexit is important where we go from now on, we have to get it done,

It is not about changing Brexit's mind and going back again,

What is your something else? So things such as looking after the

police, looking after public resources, but trying to make sure

that Britain gets the best deal for Britain, rather than going along

with what everyone thinks. No vote for Molly. No. Molly, Brexit or

something else? I think it is probably going to be Brexit rather

than something else, just because it, it is the major issue. Brexit or

something else? Here we go. Is that the first ever face time vote for

the mood box? Maybe. He said Brexit.

I love your blue hair, anything political in that? No, I just like

the colour blue. I work with a lot of homeless people, and a lot of

community work so that is super, super important. You are agonising.

I don't know what to choose. You have the golden ball, I can't take

it back. I am anti-Brexit so I am going to go with something else. It

is close but many people today told us when it comes to the general

election there is more things important to them than Brexit, they

will be making their mind up on something else.

Emma Vardy with the Daily Politics moodbox.

Laura, do you think it will be about Brexit this election or other

issues. I think Brexit will definitely dominate the airwave,

that is for sure, but on the ground, as they say, and particularly in

northern England perhaps, you know, other issues will be important like

education, health is always incredibly important, and the

economy, perhaps, this is the first election in a while where it isn't

number one but Brexit and the economy is interconnected, so it

will dominate. It is a very important question, the other issues

will be there also. Laura mentioned the economy not being the number

one, what did you make of the tactic at Prime Minister's Questions, of

Jeremy Corbyn to ask about the levels of debt and deficit, do you

think that is is a strategy? They are going to go on the economy? I I

mean the things the Brexit campaign wasn't fought on Brexit, the Brexit

campaign was fought on the NHS, and immigration. So, the idea you can...

The Remainors tried to make it on the economy. 1234 on 72 pence,

beanses will be 72 pence more expensive, that didn't ignite. And

there would be economic downturn after. It is either your beans will

be more expensive or your job will go, or it was just your beans,

neither played. The levers did sovereignty, nobody knew what it

meant. They did more money for the NHS when they didn't mean and

immigration which they weren't playing on. Now? I don't know what,

I don't know what an election fought on Brexit would look like. Do you

think, what do you think it would look like? It will be split between

the emwills who will say we are borderline going to reverse Brexit

but we are not leaving the single market.. And the Tory party who will

say we are leaving and the Labour Party saying we haven't a clue what

our position is on Brexit, can we talk something else. There was talk

of fighting hard Brexit, the Lib Dem position is clear, but what is

Labour going... It's an unsophisticated politics that can't

accept complication. We can't just say we were reverse the referendum

because we don't like it that the same time you can't say we must

leave Europe without a deal. People have to be honest and say this is a

very complex negotiation and we ought to be able to talk about it

piece by piece. That is what an evolved democracy looks like. Is

wrong with opposition, there was the line about saboteurs going after the

election. How damaging will that be? That was from a paper, it is crucial

to have a free press in a democracy. It would be entirely wrong for the

Prime Minister to criticise a free press. I think it's right for her to

give her view... Alaves look at what happened with Labour yesterday and

today. Yesterday we fight democracy, calling an election is supposedly

rigging the system and Chuka Umunna said Theresa May wanted a

dictatorship. We've just had the Shadow Education Secretary calling

the Tory party xenophobic. Clive Lewis today called people who voted

Conservative and caring. And Dawn Butler libelled the corporation...

She did apologise. Of goodness' sake. Normally you and the Zoe. I'm

on the horse now. They like insulting people and bullying people

and they like saying, if you don't vote for us you are and caring. What

about Theresa May saying she had to call this election because she

couldn't bear opposition and that hadn't been any problem getting of

the legislation through an Brexit. She said she called the election to

get the best deal for Britain and Brexit negotiations. And the

opposition is doing its job by scrutinising her. Actually I think a

language is dangerous because she said, the people are united it is

Westminster that is not united. When she wants them to unite she wants

them to unite behind her, she wants a politics of that opposition. Laura

would argue that she doesn't have an opposition anyway so she should keep

quiet about it. But it is disgusting as the leader of the civilised

democracy to say that you don't want to be opposed. She never said that.

She's called an election when she is already in power, she has conceded

control to the electorate. That is the very blog of a democracy. And

when she is 20 points ahead in the polls. You think that she's taking a

risk by calling an election when she's 21 points ahead? What Labour

are trying to do is terrify the electorate... Forget Labour, none of

us are members of the Labour Party. The point is that she has done a

zero risk option. I don't think she has raked democracy at all. It

wasn't with the fixed term Parliament act and it has been. The

point of that was that people could vote against it. Let's leave it

there. One of the reasons it's thought

the Prime Minister changed her mind about holding an election

was the favourability of the polls - with the Conservatives further ahead

of Labour than at any So as the parties get

out on to the streets where will they be best off

targeting their efforts, The average of polls in April show

the Conservatives with around 44% of the share of the vote -

19 points ahead of This would translate to a national

swing to the Conservatives of around 6%, compared

with the 2015 general election. Current analysis suggests that

could see the Conservatives gain around 50 seats and Labour

lose around 50. Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron

said this was a "chance to change the direction of the country" -

looking to appeal to areas that They will be keen to reclaim seats

like Lewes Twickenham, which they lost to the Tories

in 2015. And target very remain areas such

as Bath and Kingston-upon-Thames. Ukip will be hoping to capture seats

from Labour in the North - Hartlepool and Great Grimsby

as well as their perennial Tory That was where Nigel Farage failed

to win last time. With me is the man who called the

2015 election correctly, Matt Singh from Number Cruncher Politics. Well

done, although on the basis of polls over the last few years should we

trust anything you say? I can understand people being sceptical,

it's always been in my head, it is right that people are sceptical,

before the 2015 election it was this blind trust, people looking at it to

the last decimal place and saying that the Tory majority wouldn't

happen, it's also wrong to go to the other extreme and say that we can't

trust anything. They are imperfect but they are the best guide we have.

Other commentators over-egging it, some of them when they talk about a

potential Tory landslide? As we had on this show earlier this week it is

quite hard for the party that wins to get big majorities these days for

the simple reason that there are fewer marginal seats. Which may

surprise people, fewer marginal seats and more safe seats than there

were ten years ago. Yes. Part of what happened in the last election

is that a lot of Labour seats in Avon and North East went Labour and

Tory seats went more towards the Conservatives. In terms of if

Theresa May is trying to get the sort of majority Mrs Thatcher had in

the 1980s she would need a much bigger lead in the popular vote, it

seems, to do that. At the moment the polls suggest she has but it's early

days. What are the key targets for the Conservatives? They'll be

looking at the conservative - Labour marginals battle ground, there are

quite a few of those seats. The swing is less likely to be an even

swing than usual. If you look at what is happening, and what is

happening around the country, the Labour vote seems to be dropping

everywhere but the Tory vote seems to be advancing more in areas that

voted Leave. A few things behind that. The direct effect from Leave

voters and also more Ukip voters in those places and the Tories seem to

be doing well over them. Right. One thing that escaped the attention of

many in 2015 was that below the radar the Tories were doing better

in some of those conservative- Lib Dem marginals. Will they be able to

hold onto those this time? There will be someone they find it

difficult, you mentioned Twickenham where they have a small majority and

Vince Cable coming back and standing again, in places where the Lib Dems

have a former MP coming back, with name recognition they will do pretty

well. And in those areas that are firmly Remain and the Lib Dems are

clear on their policy. They will be looking at where they were strong in

the past and have the structure with local government and so on, within

that, the Remain position is likely to be more fruitful in those places.

We've heard Ruth Davidson the Tory lead in Scotland saying that they

reached peak Nat last time. Is the only way down for the SNP? And be

hard for them to go up, they've got 56% of visits! There were literally

three! One for each of the three UK wide parties. It is hard to see

anything other than the SNP still being dominant. However there's been

an interesting change in Scotland. Among people that oppose

independence there's been a switch from Labour to the Conservatives.

The Conservatives narrowly beat Labour into second place at the

Holyrood election and they have consolidated that position. Let's

talk about tactical voting. Caroline Lucas, one of the leaders of the

Green party, called for more tactical voting yesterday on a

Progressive Alliance ticket. How many seats could be won if that

agreement, if there were an agreement, was taken through to a

logical conclusion, how many seats could a Progressive Alliance win?

Its defence that is a formal thing or an informal thing. I think that

comment was more about a formal thing -- it depends if that is

formal or informal. It's not just about adding votes, it is about how

people would perceive that Alliance. Even potentially, hurray, you know

the answer. With Compass we've done a lot about the data, there are 49

seats where voters making smart choices to ally against the

Conservatives could win it for either the Lib Dems or Labour. But

they would have to trust either the Lib Dems or the Labour Party to

cooperate afterwards and that is still up in the air, there are 40

seats which would become impregnable if voters voted smartly. Caroline

Lucas has always said, you can't have parties stitching up deals

between themselves, you need voters to hold hustings and say, OK, we'll

support you. You could do it at some sort of local level and have

agreement. It is so we're right in the sense that they would be enough,

there is enough potential for Progressive Alliance to vote or to

keep out Tory candidate stash is so we write? It would depend on the

nature of the Alliance. If you are talking about the Greens, Labour

squeezed them hard in the marginal seats last time so there are not so

many, if we're talking Lib Dems it's different. We are talking about

everyone. In a certain light Ken Clarke would be welcome any

Progressive Alliance. Not likely to happen! It won't happen from the top

down because they couldn't agree and also because voters don't like it.

Coalition of chaos was the phrase used by Theresa May yesterday or the

day before, it didn't get much traction, is it because it is not

true that there would be a coalition of chaos even if there was a linkup?

I think it would be chaotic. It would be very difficult to see how

it would work. Tactical voting on the ground is one thing but if you

got extraordinary result, Howard coalition would agree is very

difficult. -- how it would agree. If you voted to leave the EU and then

Labour made a deal with the Lib Dems and went back on it, you'd feel

you'd been stabbed in the back once more by your party. Which is why

Labour reject any idea of an SNP coalition. Labour reject anything

with the Lib Dems all with the SNP because they are tribal and it's

staffed. Even if they were not in the situation they are in it is

backwards looking to look at everything through wanting this mass

party dominance of the early 19 hundredths. A lot of voters are

daft, not as daft as Tory voters obviously! On the daftness

barometer... You are mistaking me for a Labour MP, I'm not even a

member of the Liberal party. Ladies, I am glad you have clarified that.

Before we hear more about stuff voters, none of our voters are daft,

thank you for coming in! There's an important

election under way. One that could determine the future

of both Jeremy Corbyn and his party. Not the general election,

but a ballot among Unite the Union's one million members,

for their General Secretary. They are counting the votes

as we speak and the result is not But the battle between Len McCluskey

and his challenger Gerard Coyne Ben Wright has been

keeping his eye on it. Why should we care so much about

this election in terms of Labour Party politics? Jo, this election

has been going on for several weeks. It has been better and personnel

because there's a huge amount at stake. The two main reasons, Unite

is the biggest trade union in Britain with 1.4 million members

working in sectors from the car industry through two airlines, so

the general secretary of that union and the decisions and priorities

they make as a big bearing on a large number of workers in the UK.

The two pitches being made by Len McCluskey and Gerard Coyne are quite

different about the future shape and priorities of trade unionism in the

next couple of years. It clearly has a huge bearing on the feature of

Labour. One of the main arguments made by Gerard Coyne against Len

McCluskey is that at the moment, Unite is much too close to Jeremy

Corbyn and the Labour Party. Gerard Coyne said Unite should no longer be

the puppet master of Jeremy Corbyn 's Labour. And if Len McCaskill were

to lose the contest it would be a massive blow to Jeremy Corbyn -- Len

McCluskey because it would significantly change the shape and

composition of the Labour Party ruling National executive and also

the party conference. It would have a very big bearing and Unite is one

of the biggest trade union donors to the Labour Party. So what has

happened in terms of Gerard Coyne and his position as the Challenger

two Len McCluskey? It's very murky. What happened yesterday is that

Unite said that Gerard Coyne had been suspended from his job as the

West Midlands regional organiser, a job he's had her 15 years, pending

investigations into certain activities that had taken place.

They said no more than that. Clearly the bosses of Unite have concerns

over how he has been running his campaign. To be honest both Len

McCluskey's campaign and Gerard Coyne's campaign have been unusually

quiet in the last 24 hours and they don't want to talk about it. That

happened yesterday just as voting was closing. And the votes are being

counted today, as he said. It is all murky. Word Gerard Coyne to win the

contest and it still feels that that's the least likely outcome, --

if he were to win, we are also being told that it's ridiculous, what

impact does his suspension from his job have if he were to win this.

It's a very mysterious set of circumstances. If he were to win,

Gerard Coyne, could he take up the position at the General Secretary of

Unite? There could be legal challenges from the other size about

whether that was a between tenable outcome. We would hear speculation

that housing benefit kneecaped as it reaches its final stages, it is

another twist in what has been a bruising campaign within Unite, but

what would be key is how many people engage and turned out to vote. It

seems Gerard Coyne's big hope is he could get turn out in this contest

above about 15% which is the turn out... Pretty low. A tiny number of

hard-core activist who tornado to take part in this. Gerard Coyne's

big hope was extending that to the wider membership who haven't been

engaged in this before. He wants to return Unite back to the interests

of the membership and not just lining it -- aligning it with Jeremy

Corbyn. When the result announced? It is officially announced on 28th,

so a week's time. There are rumours it could be as early as this

afternoon. Thank you very much. So where are the

negotiations on Brexit? But in spite of the upcoming

elections, Theresa May is busy Next week, the PM hosts

the head of the Commission, And the European Council is due

to convene next weekend to lay A draft however has already

been leaked, suggesting that the European Court of Justice

would continue to play role in the UK's relationship

with the EU even when we leave. European Parliament President

Antonio Tajani had a cordial And he had reassuring words

for the Prime Minister on the issue The UK's departure affects

millions of EU citizens, and the European Parliament message

is clear, strongly defending their The students, workers and families

are valuable members of society and deserve absolute certainty

over their future. I underlined, during

the meeting with Mrs May, for the European Parliament this

is the most important point. We are joined now from Rome

by Roberto Gualtieri, an Italian MEP who is part

of the European Parliament's negotiating team, and from

Birmingham by James Carver, Welcome to both of you. Do you

welcome the general election that is under way in the UK? Of course I

have my personal idea as a socialist member, but as part of a negotiating

team we deal with the country and with this government. We understand

where we will have a government elected in the election, that will

be our part throughout. The President of the European Parliament

has suggested after the general election, the UK could reverse the

departure process and it wouldn't need to go through the courts, is

there any chance of that in your mind? No, because of the mandate it

was given in the referendum where the British people voted to take

back control and make a decision. Decision. And Roberto, the European

Parliament has threatened to veto any Brexit deal if the UK does not

guarantee the rights under the European Court of Justice

jurisdiction and they have to be guaranteed forever but we are

leaving the EU, so why would you put that in your negotiating opening

gambit? I think we should clarify between the withdrawal agreement,

and possible transitional arrangementings and the future

relationship between the UK and you. We now are talking about the

withdrawal agreement which have to settle some element of the divorce

and of course, for some of those elements it is obvious for us that

the European Court of Justice should be in charge to monitor the

implementation. It includes... In the leaked document I says that the

rights of EU nationals in the UK, if there was a dispute in the feature

under whatever deal is agreed, that dispute would be brokered by the

European Court of Justice. The guidelines clarify than the European

Court off justice should form a fundamental role we talk about

Somersetments models, this is of course for the information, but one

point has to be made clear, we want to guarantee all the rightings for

the citizens. And this right should be fully enjoyable as they are now,

so this is the most important element and of course, we have to

guarantee that also the the implementation of the right will be

according to rules, one thing having written them, the other is

administration of the right, we heard about very long very forms to

be filed for having the permanent... We see that the existing set of

rights, both for UK national in it will UK and for new national the UK,

they should be guaranteed, not just the, so it is very important Let

me... It is concrete. Let me put that to James, do you have a

problem? Yes. He fails to appreciate a premise of economy and a role for

all. The supremacy of the European Court of Justice, outlining in the

infamous fact following the... Hang on, can I pick you up on equality

for all, it would be under the European Court of Justice, because

there would be reciprocity, the UK citizens in other member states

would be treated in the same way as EU members here. I don't accept

that, sorry. It would be a disadvantaged to other British

citizens. We voted to pull out of the European Court of Justice, it

was a simple question, is it in or out and we voted to leave. So you

don't want to ea the European Court off justice have any forge of...

Citizens from inside and outside the European Union have lived in the

United Kingdom for many, many years, even before the European Union and

indeed European economic economyty came into being. That is a view from

Ukip, do you think that Theresa May will agree to your demands as you

have outlined, bear in mind where she has said about leaving the UK

including leaving the European Court of Justice. It is very clear for the

future relationship the decision of the Government of the European

Government is of course to leave theure and... You think she will

accept it. We are talking about something different. We call... The

grandfathers aring of existing right. Do you think she will accept

it. I am very happy for the UK, and for thesome citizen their right he

defended by the Ukip rend Tim and the got that is... You are opt us

the Mick -- optimistic she will accept that, Theresa May, let us say

she wins would accept that agreement?

Hope of course that the next Government, who will be

democratically elected by the UK citizens will be reliable partner in

the negotiation and will ensure a good result. First from the is it

zins and we are talking about that and we have to protect the rights.

All right. If the European Parliament veto the Brexit deal,

what happens then? I am sure they will. You know. Speaking from my

experience, what I am seeing the body language, we saw what happened

to the vote in the last plenty session, I don't know what they are

do. If they do a, if we want to walk away, we have to walk away and it

underlines lines the validity of Ukip. We have to keep the pressure

on the Conservative Party and speak up. Thank you both very much.

Your thoughts on how it is going to go? Of course your initial

negotiating position, you have as a tough position, You can work

backwards, what he seems to be saying is that I mean, he seems to

be accepting, that yes, Britain, the European Court of Justice will not

have jurisdiction over Britain, that is what Brexit means. It is the

case, that is what tray has said. The turning point seems to be what

is there is a dispute over the eventual deal, but on basic

principles, you can't go to the one of the parties court, you go to an

impartial court to decide that. They are drawing that as a red line. You

can't say my people get to depied the dispute. I am not sure there is

a final arbitration question they are asking. There are areas of

adjudication the Great Repeal Bill can't cope with, so things like two,

a British parent and European parent and who has cost diof their

children. Loads of airsias of law -- areas of law. We have almost run out

of time. Fascinating though it will be at some stage we will have to

leave it there. We have to go to our round up of the political week. Here

is Jenny with a special edition of the week in 60 seconds.

On Tuesday the Prime Minister had a surprise for us all.

And it wasn't a chocolate, sorry, Easter egg.

We agreed that the government should call a general election.

Legally there shouldn't be a vote until 2020,

but that proved no object as MPs voted overwhelmingly

But not for George Osborne, who's gone into the

Not the family wallpaper firm, mind you, he's off

to edit the London Evening Standard full-time.

Yesterday the president of the European Parliament

turned up, but insisted that he wasn't here to interfere.

Unlike the European Commissioner, who decided

to ring him up in the middle office press conference.

And Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn took a populist tone,

railing against the cosy club of the establishment,

but he left the gags to his warm-up act.

I think we have less than 60 seconds to the end.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

The question is, who is standing against LIb Dem leader Tim Farron

At the end of the show, Laura and Zoe will give us

Farron says he is "more of a chips and mushy peas man".

Thanks to Zoe, Laura and all my guests.

Andrew will be back on Sunday on BBC One at 11

with the Sunday Politics, when his guests will include

the Conservative Party chairman Patrick McLoughlin.